Episode 306 - Julie Klausner
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
What the fuck?
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Thank you for all the lovely feedback as of late because of things and stuff.
Marc:I seem to be around a bit out there in the world in the zeitgeist.
Marc:I'm flying around the zeitgeist.
Marc:with different types of facial hair.
Marc:It's weird when they run something on television that was shot months ago, and I realize I'm still changing my haircut too often.
Marc:Can't I just settle on a fucking haircut?
Marc:I'm a grown man.
Marc:It's time I look the same for the rest of it.
Marc:So what's happening?
Marc:Julie Klausner from the podcast.
Marc:How is your week is on the show today.
Marc:I'm now reaching into my pocket for a nicotine lozenge because God forbid I go without one for five fucking minutes.
Marc:I'm amazed.
Marc:I now have like actual facial twitches that are directly relatable to the way I move my nicotine lozenge around my mouth.
Marc:And to the point where my girlfriend now makes fun of it.
Marc:There's a face that she can make and do this weird, dumb thing with her mouth and her tongue to mock me moving a lozenge around.
Marc:That is not something I want as my hook.
Marc:I don't want people to be able to do an impression of me moving my lozenge around with my tongue.
Marc:I had chest pains today.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I had chest pains in my chest today.
Marc:That's where they happen.
Marc:I let it go because I was nervous today.
Marc:I'll get to that in a minute.
Marc:I do want to say right off the bat here that there is no negotiating with raccoons.
Marc:There's no way you can meet a raccoon halfway.
Marc:I walked out last night.
Marc:There were
Marc:I saw one raccoon eating the cat food.
Marc:Then I walked around the corner to where the garage is, and I had accidentally cornered three raccoons at the end of the driveway before the gate here that goes into my backyard.
Marc:So these were big, cornered raccoons, and I got to be honest with you, I was much more frightened than they were.
Marc:I had no idea how they would react.
Marc:I ran back into the house, and they ran under the deck.
Marc:But there's no midway point.
Marc:If you give them the run of things, they will take it.
Marc:There's no way to get rid of them unless you scare them and they have a place to run.
Marc:But they will fucking eat anything.
Marc:I don't know what's going on.
Marc:And they bathe in my cat water.
Marc:I don't know what they... Every time the raccoons come, I've caught them doing it.
Marc:They stick their face and their paws into the cat water.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Here's what happened today.
Marc:The reason I think I had chest pains was I just taped an episode of Jeffrey Ross's new show, The Burn, on Comedy Central.
Marc:And as some of you know who listen to this show, I had my own little Vietnam with a roast situation when I roasted Chevy Chase.
Marc:The roast of Chevy Chase, which I know a lot of you say after hearing my story,
Marc:Looks fine because they picked good jokes that I did and they sweetened the shit out of it.
Marc:But that was the worst night of my life.
Marc:And from that night, I mean, that's got to be going on almost 10 years ago.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:I have been traumatized when it comes to roasting.
Marc:And I've decided that I don't know how to roast because I'm innately too mean.
Marc:That my belief is that I'm good at insulting people if I feel cornered, which could be when I meet you.
Marc:It could be that quick.
Marc:But I also know that when I put people down, it's in more of a bullying kind of way that I'm looking if I'm defensive or I'm freaked out or I want to get a toe in or a leg up or whatever the hell the saying is.
Marc:You know, I'll take a shot.
Marc:It'll be funny, but it'll be cutting.
Marc:So I never really I don't know that area in between saying something funny and insulting and just saying something, you know, mean.
Marc:So I've stayed away from roasts.
Marc:And, you know, Jeffrey asked me to to be on this new show.
Marc:So I'm going to be on the show tomorrow night.
Marc:And I was I was nervous.
Marc:Like, I don't get that nervous anymore.
Marc:I just did a Chelsea lately for the second time.
Marc:I feel like I should be doing this type of stuff.
Marc:Even if I I barely think about pop culture.
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I I am so detached from it, but it's not on principle.
Marc:I've never been that involved with it.
Marc:I rarely watch TV shows.
Marc:I do not know what the hell is going on in the world of gossip or the world of celebrity.
Marc:I barely knew.
Marc:I don't I hardly know who half the celebrities are.
Marc:I don't know if I need to.
Marc:I think I do all right without knowing that stuff.
Marc:But OK, so Jeff asked me to be on the show and I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I love Jeff Ross.
Marc:I mean, Jeff Ross has figured out Jeff Ross is a unique comic in that he's almost timeless.
Marc:There's a type of Jewish comedian and I say Jewish because he's a classic.
Marc:And I think maybe I've told this story on the show before.
Marc:I've known Jeff Ross since he was Jeff Lifshultz.
Marc:I've known Jeff Ross since, you know, he started doing comedy way back.
Marc:I mean, it's got to be 20, 22 years, 25 years.
Marc:I've known Jeff Ross that long.
Marc:I knew Jeff Ross when he wasn't funny.
Marc:I knew Jeff Ross when when he was Jeff Lifshultz and would stand up there on stage and I could not figure out.
Marc:I was like watching paint dry with your ears and.
Marc:And then at some point he got funny and he changed his name.
Marc:But he's such a classic.
Marc:There's a real skill to doing the type of jokes he does.
Marc:They're brutal, but there's a delicacy to delivering a roast joke, to delivering a mean joke that isn't mean spirited.
Marc:The story I used to tell about Jeff is that I think Jeff is timeless in the sense that I don't know if you saw the movie The Shining, but...
Marc:At the end of that movie, where the bartender, or no, the butler, who's a ghost, is talking to Jack Nicholson.
Marc:And the butler says something along the lines of, you know, you've always been here, Mr. Torrance.
Marc:And they zoom in on a picture of the Overlook Hotel in like the 20s.
Marc:And there's Jack Nicholson in the middle of this group shot.
Marc:And I think that's the same with Jeff Ross.
Marc:I think I think it would be the ghost of a club booker from the 20s saying, you've always been here, Mr. Ross.
Marc:And it'd be a picture of him and and the cast of the Goldbergs from radio.
Marc:You know, Jack Burns, Fred Allen, Jack Benny.
Marc:I just feel like there's something about the spirit of Jeff Ross that has always been in comedy.
Marc:So I have a respect for the guy and we go way back and he's a sweet guy and he wants me to do a show and I'm nervous because I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to pull it off.
Marc:I have to write these jokes that are basically mean and I have to deliver them in a not mean way.
Marc:So I was a little freaked out.
Marc:On the panel with me is Gilbert Gottfried and Russell Peters.
Marc:And they sent the topics.
Marc:And I kind of sweat over them.
Marc:And I wrote some jokes.
Marc:And I got there.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:It was great to see Gilbert.
Marc:He'll be on an upcoming WTF.
Marc:And Russell, who's been on the show, it was great to see him.
Marc:Norm MacDonald was hanging around.
Marc:It was really sort of a nice event.
Marc:And I got up there with my jokes.
Marc:And I was very careful.
Marc:Not to be freaked out and not to be defensive or I'd be there.
Marc:I know I'd be too mean.
Marc:And because I know that I've got that in me.
Marc:I know I can be a dick.
Marc:And the trick of doing roast type of jokes is to be a dick, but still be sweet about it and not make it look like you're just a dick.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, I think I pulled it off.
Marc:I think not unlike the time that I sang on stage, I think I have finally overcome my fear of insult comedy.
Marc:Thanks to Jeff Ross.
Marc:That show, The Burn, is on Comedy Central tomorrow night, 1030 here, 930 Central.
Marc:But tell me what you think.
Marc:Gilbert was hilarious.
Marc:He's such a sweet little guy.
Marc:It's hard not to bust his balls.
Marc:We got to do that.
Marc:We busted each other's balls.
Marc:I busted on Jeff.
Marc:We did the topics.
Marc:And I don't think I was too mean.
Marc:But I felt it at the end because at the end he does this thing where he roasts members of the crowd and, you know, he gets volunteers and they stand up.
Marc:And there was a moment there where, you know, we were asked to sort of chime in.
Marc:I think that's going to be on the Internet.
Marc:And there was just some guy, you know, and Jeff asked him, you know, where do you work?
Marc:And he goes, I work at a grocery store.
Marc:And the only thing that could come into my mind was, you know, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard.
Marc:Which is not that's just it's not me.
Marc:It's just like it's I think there's a fine line between being mean and being too honest.
Marc:Look, a job is a job.
Marc:But like when I picture myself working at a grocery store, it's not a pleasant experience.
Marc:Maybe I should have framed it that way.
Marc:Maybe I should have said, oh, my God, I just pictured myself working at a grocery store and that made me sad.
Marc:I don't know, but I felt a little weird about that, and I realized, like, I should just, you know, stick with roasting people who can take it and not just be mean.
Marc:Ugh.
Marc:It was a lesson.
Marc:It was a lesson.
Marc:So enjoy that.
Marc:All right, let's talk to Julie Klausner.
Marc:She's got red hair.
Marc:Julie Klausner is here.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Why do you sound frightened?
Marc:I'm really nervous.
Marc:Why are you nervous?
Marc:You spend your life in front of a microphone.
Guest:I don't spend my life in front of you, Mark.
Marc:But why would you be nervous around me?
Marc:You're an independently minded, tough Jewish broad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Elaine Kaufman.
Marc:Is that your real name?
Guest:No.
Marc:Who's Elaine Kaufman?
Guest:Of Elaine's.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Is that how you picture me?
Guest:Like a young Elaine Kaufman?
Marc:Why not?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You're running a powerful restaurant and bar out of your apartment.
Guest:Yes, Gore Vidal is in one corner, Tom Wolfe is in another.
Guest:Are they hanging out?
Guest:No, they're not talking.
Marc:Why do I make you nervous?
Marc:Let's get to the bottom of it, because I'm tired of making people nervous.
Marc:What is it about me?
Guest:I don't know you well.
Guest:You're not feeling well today, and that makes me nervous if you're in a bad mood.
Guest:Oh, you thought I was cranky.
Guest:Well, not that cranky, but I just don't want to impose, and I know that you were sort of feeling under the weather and maybe would have rather... Well, I felt bad, but I could have just written you an email and said, I'm sick.
Marc:No, Julie, no.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I decided to throw the ball in your court and let you bail.
Marc:But you're like, oh, no problem.
Marc:It'll be fine.
Marc:I'll come earlier.
Marc:Well...
Marc:Because you came... I know, you flew in for this.
Guest:I didn't fly in for this, but I was looking forward to it.
Marc:I was looking forward to it, and I... I can tell.
Marc:No, I am.
Guest:No, I know, I know.
Marc:I know, but you can hear I'm genuinely sick.
Marc:I'm not making it up.
Guest:You're about to lift tea.
Guest:I assume there's tea in that cup?
Marc:No, it's coffee.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I'm not that sick.
Guest:It would have been more medicinal.
Guest:No, of course.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:Tea and water, it's all good.
Marc:But I have a cold, but I'm not... Energy is not compromised.
Guest:You get depressed when you're sick?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I get relaxed.
Marc:I'm grateful if I'm sick for a few days, if I don't have anything to do, because I don't know how to relax.
Guest:I don't either.
Marc:No?
Marc:What are you doing out here?
Guest:No.
Guest:I'm doing a show tomorrow night, like a live version of the podcast.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where?
Guest:At Comedy Central Stage.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:With Ted Leo and Billy Eichner and this girl, Katie Natopoulos, who's on Buzz... She's like an editor at BuzzFeed, and she collects weird internet things, so she's my second guest.
Marc:And are you coming out here to do meetings?
Marc:Do you do meetings?
Guest:I've done meetings.
Guest:I will continue to meet until everything's been met.
Marc:Well, I mean, aren't they doing a television show based on a thing you did, or is that happening?
Guest:Well, so I wrote a book.
Marc:That book, your very popular book, I Don't Care About Your Band.
Guest:It was optioned.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:By Gary Sanchez.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was in development in HBO, and Lizzie Kaplan was going to be in it, and then it didn't go forward.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is disappointing, but I don't know.
Guest:To be completely honest, I was a little relieved because I didn't get to write the script.
Guest:The person they got to write the script is awesome.
Guest:Leslie Hedlund.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and she did a great job.
Guest:And it didn't go forward.
Guest:And I was disappointed, but I remember being like, you know, it would have been...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I would have liked to have.
Marc:How much power would you have had, though, in something like that?
Marc:I mean, if you didn't write the script, you would just get, what, a created by type of thing?
Guest:They were really nice about keeping me involved, and they would show me stuff around.
Marc:That's what they tell you.
Marc:Just keep showing her until she stops caring and gets angry.
Guest:Until her emails just go right to the spam folder.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, everyone was super nice, and they were all... But it was like my life story.
Guest:It was really, really personal.
Guest:So it was terrifying.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, where did you grow up?
Marc:Let's get into the life story.
Guest:Scarsdale.
Marc:Scarsdale, New York.
Marc:I knew a guy from Scarsdale, Cliff Melman.
Guest:Sounds about right.
Guest:Sounds like that story checks out.
Marc:Yeah, Clifford Melman.
Marc:We used to call him Sniff in college.
Marc:I just re-contacted with Sniff, actually.
Marc:Sniff and I had a thing we did freshman year of college called the ACDC Cruise, where we'd buy 40-ounce beers, and we'd get in the car and just put ACDC on and drive until the beer ran out and drive back.
Marc:That's Scarsdale to me.
Guest:Is it?
Marc:Well, I went to his house once, and I met his sisters.
Guest:Were they pretty?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How were the Melmans?
Guest:How were the sisters Melmans?
Marc:They were great.
Marc:They were all great.
Marc:His father was a character.
Marc:It just seems that in my mind, Scarsdale represents the Jew that I didn't become.
Guest:That's a very astute way of putting it.
Marc:That somehow I was fortunate enough to be taken away from the East Coast at a young enough age not to be Scarsdale.
Guest:Well, it is sort of the bizarro version of Great Neck.
Guest:I know that there's a lot of like schadenfreude.
Guest:Whenever something horrible happens in Great Neck, people in Scarsdale are thrilled and vice versa.
Guest:Like when the Scarsdale diet doctor was murdered, people in Great Neck high-fived.
Guest:And then when capturing the Freedmans came out, everyone in Scarsdale had a little spring in their step extra that day.
Marc:Did that get big coverage here?
Marc:I guess the Freedman thing was a pretty big story there.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, they were...
Marc:Jews don't have anything to talk about.
Marc:Women at beauty parlors.
Guest:Women at, there was a shoe shop called the Shoe Inn.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you get it?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Are you sure?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:The Shoe Inn.
Guest:It's like, here'll be a shoe inn.
Marc:Yeah, it's your place.
Guest:That was where the gossip would fly.
Guest:Oh, did you hear about this computer teacher who's reportedly molesting all these, just habitually?
Guest:You know, capturing the Freedmen.
Marc:Sure, yeah, I did.
Marc:I enjoyed that documentary.
Guest:It was a good documentary.
Marc:Well, I'm not sure how he felt about it after everything is said and done.
Guest:It was one of those ambiguous third acts where you're like...
Guest:I want closure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then, like, the older son was actually doing comedy for a while, I believe.
Marc:He was?
Marc:I think he was around.
Marc:I remember it sort of happening.
Guest:Jesse, the one who was, like, exonerated?
Marc:The clown.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Yeah, that makes sense.
Guest:What's a clown?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it was kind of rough.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what kind of thing did you grow up with?
Marc:What was the parental structure?
Guest:Very... Oh, traditional mother-father.
Guest:I went to Hebrew school.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Traditional Jewish mother and father?
Guest:Oh, completely.
Marc:What was your dad?
Marc:A doctor, a dentist, an accountant, a lawyer?
Guest:Accountant.
Guest:You got it on the third, was it?
Guest:The third, yeah.
Guest:My mom is a shrink.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That's rough.
Guest:It's fine.
Marc:Yeah, so everything's in order.
Guest:Is that your impression?
Marc:No, not at all.
Guest:There are two kinds of shrinks.
Guest:There are shrinks that I think are genuinely compassionate, like sort of smarty pants types.
Guest:And then there's the crazy shrinks.
Guest:And that has to do with, I think, crazy is attracted to crazy.
Marc:Why do people become shrinks?
Marc:Because they're, you know, I mean, they got to have something going on.
Marc:I don't want to say anything bad about your mom.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:You're saying your mom's crazy?
Guest:You're welcome to.
Guest:No, I think she's the first kind and that she's always sort of been giving people advice.
Guest:She's very intuitive.
Guest:Then there are the strengths that are just, you know, balls out, whack, wackos.
Guest:And those are the ones that I think went into the industry because they were like, oh, I'm really fascinated by crazy.
Guest:And it's like, that's because, you know, that's everywhere you look and who you are.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, so much of it is speculative.
Marc:I don't go to a shrink.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You do.
Guest:Well, on and off.
Marc:Your mom was like, what was she, a psychologist?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Psychologist.
Marc:So it wasn't analysis.
Marc:She didn't have a medical doctor.
Marc:She wasn't a prescriber of pills.
Guest:No.
Marc:She was a let's talk person.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she was, you know how she did, was she interactive with her?
Guest:She still is.
Guest:She still treats like couples and individuals and she still has a practice.
Marc:See, I think that it's good for couples.
Marc:But I think after a certain point, depending on how old you are and what the depth of your issues are, going to a shrink is a waste of fucking time.
Guest:Well, it depends on the shrink and it depends on what you want.
Guest:You've been successful in the past with couples therapy?
Marc:No, I was successful in avoiding it and doing it too late.
Guest:And then realizing... And saying, oh, this could have been really good.
Marc:It could have worked.
Marc:Because there's so much that isn't communicated between couples that needs to be facilitated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, I agree.
Guest:Although I think it works best when both couples have the same goal, which is to stay together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Both people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was I was in serious troubleshooting mode by the time I ended up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It really was just facilitating her her voice to tell me exactly why it was over.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was almost as though the shrink was there to hand her a microphone and to be like, Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's done.
Guest:We're done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Here's like, here's the witness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Could you sign this paper?
Guest:I've never been to couples therapy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you a couple?
Guest:I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've been with a guy.
Guest:No, I've been with a guy for almost four years.
Marc:Yeah, what are you getting?
Marc:When's it going to happen?
Marc:Where's the ring?
Guest:Oh, it's happening.
Guest:You mean marriage?
Guest:I'm not thinking about it, Mark.
Marc:Not at all.
Guest:Not right now.
Guest:Is that an anomaly for like a Jewish girl from Scarsdale?
Marc:No, I'm just trying to believe you.
Guest:Got rings in my eyes?
Marc:Not even rings.
Marc:I don't know about girls who say they're not thinking about it.
Marc:Because it seems to me that they are.
Guest:Sometimes I have been, but right now I'm not.
Guest:It's a moment-to-moment thing.
Marc:So you're a shrinks kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you had to live with that.
Guest:You call it living.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:I actually tend to be very... That's kind of my second... Not my fallback thing, but I can be a little shrinky.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Well... But isn't it kind of like... My first wife was a shrinks daughter.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But she didn't seem very crazy.
Marc:But it's always like, oh, shrinks kid.
Marc:Uh-oh.
Guest:I think...
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Is that a thing?
Marc:Oh, yeah, it's a thing.
Marc:How could you not know that?
Guest:Because you've been on the other end of the shrinkness growing up?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's just this sort of assumption.
Marc:There was a family, the Rosensteins, who lived down the street from New Mexico, and their father was a shrink, and there was a stigma to it.
Guest:I see.
Marc:I think it's like Skinnerian.
Marc:You just assume, like, oh, those kids have got to be all mushy in the brain.
Guest:Well...
Guest:I think male shrinks are also different.
Guest:I think women are sort of naturally suited to just be like, talk to me, tell me what's going on.
Guest:Maybe I can help you out.
Guest:There's something about a man listening to you while you're on a couch and he has a pad.
Guest:Kind of makes me think of like Dylan Baker's character in Happiness.
Guest:Wasn't he a shrink?
Guest:I mean, he was also a petter ass, but... Was he a shrink?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Maybe he was.
Guest:There's something a little, I mean, not all male shrinks.
Guest:And I think in many cases, therapy works when men go to see men.
Guest:But yeah, there's just, I don't know.
Guest:It's a different thing.
Marc:I'm just too heady, you know.
Marc:So sometimes shrinks, like if they can give me a new way to think about things, that's good.
Marc:But to get me to a place where I can effectively emote
Marc:To actually do the work around the emotions that you're avoiding with your brain.
Guest:Well, what is the work that you're talking about in order to understand how you're feeling and make it reasonable?
Marc:Well, either you're going to... I think you can intellectually wrap your brain around your problems if you have some self-awareness.
Marc:But that doesn't mean you can work through the grief.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:So you can understand why you're feeling horrible without feeling any better about it.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you can just sort of say, oh, that's because I'm as opposed to resolving it, which I think you actually actively have to experience those feelings or just get too old to give a shit anymore.
Guest:Well, I think both of those things have to do with time healing.
Guest:It's like time and distance.
Guest:I think the most, like, the best advice I ever got around my, because I'm very emotional, and that's definitely something.
Guest:I always say, like, the only thing I'm afraid of is my own feelings.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think the only way to look at them in a way that's helpful is just to think of them like the weather.
Guest:Like, oh, this is a bad storm.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Boy, oh, boy.
Marc:Hope it blows over soon.
Guest:Maybe tomorrow we'll be nicer.
Guest:And then you kind of, like, do a little dance, distract yourself from, like, just the crushing pain.
Marc:Or eat.
Guest:Oh, and eat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that how you do it?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are you eating crazy?
Guest:I've always, you know, it's like a Jewish thing.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Emotional eating, of course.
Marc:I think it's a, is it?
Marc:Yeah, I guess it is sort of a Jewish thing.
Marc:You think that.
Guest:Oh, you know it.
Guest:You know that it is.
Guest:Of all the things to be addicted to.
Marc:I would eat all the time.
Marc:I love it.
Guest:You look thin.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:All right, so I'm better now.
Guest:You do.
Marc:I didn't know if you were like... I don't even feel sick anymore.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah, just say that a few more times.
Guest:You do look thin.
Marc:Holy shit.
Guest:I'm worried about you.
Marc:I mean, no, no, no, no.
Marc:No, I'm actually... You would have brought a pie or something.
Marc:Some ruglach.
Guest:so what what went wrong with what i don't know you said you said your book was very personal yes my book is about my 20s and sort of failing sort of constantly making mistakes and saying oh okay and then going ahead and doing them again and saying this sounds crazy i'm gonna go ahead and try it like what's the list
Guest:Well, it's just a series of situations that I had hoped would end in love, but generally were just either sex or false starts or, you know, I'd call it bad judgment.
Guest:But looking back, I don't regret it because I just don't think I would have done it any differently.
Guest:but do you think it's like on the dude or what yes okay and what what did you what would you what did you uh come out with um on the other end of it learning about dudes well a lot about just that there's a generation of girls my age and girls women whatever you want to call people that aren't you know 20 anymore but aren't 40 yet i guess in between right that grew up just thinking they could
Guest:have it all just knowing that we deserved absolutely everything career the husband whatever it is that we wanted and then it our equivalent generation of guys just kind of didn't have the same I guess we're dealing with a generation of guys that aren't up to task and that's sort of what I believe.
Marc:Is that generalization in the sense that maybe you're just talking about the pool of guys that you seem to be revolving around?
Guest:It is a generalization, but I love generalizations because you learn things from them, don't you?
Marc:No, no, no, I know.
Marc:But lately I've been sort of aggravated at what people see as generational because I think that sometimes it's very specific.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because I think that if you want to sort of date out of your trend pool...
Marc:Yeah, you could probably find exactly what you look.
Guest:Well, I had done that, too.
Guest:And I still found stuff to fetch about.
Guest:But I don't think it was I don't I know exactly what you mean that, like, sometimes people are so myopic that they sort of just do things in order to prove their own worldview.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Rather than actually looking for happiness.
Marc:Well, there's a bunch of droopy bearded man children running around, you know, half-assed, committed to their art or whatever, but more committed to their beard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I also don't know that a lot of dudes are on the sort of ambitious trajectory, a career-oriented trajectory.
Guest:Or if they are, they sort of think, well, then I don't have time to have a relationship or I don't have time to kind of, you know, indulge the romantic sides of what I might be looking to do.
Guest:Whereas like real artists, I think, have to have a personal life.
Guest:Otherwise, what are you going to make art about?
Marc:Well, sometimes they're disturbed and truly disturbed.
Marc:Did you ever go out with anybody like truly disturbed?
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Oh, well, there's a guy in the book I talked about who like stolen a car for kicks.
Guest:And it turns out there was a baby in the backseat.
Guest:And he like told me this story on the first date that he was charged with like kidnapping and grand larceny and larceny.
Marc:I don't even know if that is a word, but I like it.
Guest:It's a pretty name.
Marc:I make up words all the time.
Guest:and uh it was one of those things where i was like yeah all right nice meeting you but but it was just it was just like filterless how many days did you go on uh i think just one no maybe wait no we had two but the second one wasn't really a date it was just like all right nice it yeah it was it was a larcenarist he came over three and just a just some light kidnapping uh-huh yeah you agreed to it we agreed to disagree
Guest:There's definitely some disturbed people out there.
Guest:And I hope that people got the intention of the book, which is that I was looking for love.
Guest:I was looking to connect.
Guest:And I made a lot of mistakes along the way.
Guest:And a lot of women responded to it.
Guest:And men, too.
Guest:But I definitely get still grateful emails from girls that are teenagers and women older than me saying, thank you for writing this book.
Guest:I thought it was just me.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I'm trying to think about my side of it with you and with whatever you're representing right now.
Marc:Because between my second divorce and wherever I'm at now, which is with a woman.
Guest:For how long?
Guest:If you don't mind me asking.
Marc:I think we've known each other a couple of years and she just moved in.
Marc:But, you know, we broke up and it was crazy.
Marc:But I went on an extraordinary tear of aggressive dating and sex.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I was sort of surprised at how quickly some women thought this was it.
Marc:This was like, this is right.
Marc:And how that I gave no real indication of that.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:that it was a sort of misread.
Marc:Because, I mean, we both know you can have pretty good sex with strangers.
Marc:You probably could have, you know, on some level, better sex with a stranger if you do it like twice or three times than you will a year from then.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But can you have, can you, I guess it's hard not to, in my experience, fall in love with somebody that, in my experience, it's hard not to fall in love with somebody when the sex is really great.
Marc:It is, right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:As a woman.
Guest:I'm going to start every sentence from now on with that.
Guest:Is that okay?
Guest:As a woman, I would love another glass of water.
Guest:As a woman, that has been my experience as a woman.
Marc:But then you're going to hold that on the dude?
Guest:Well, it's not that you're holding it and it's not that you're necessarily expecting it as much as you just sort of hope that you hope that he feels the same thing.
Guest:And when he doesn't, it's always disappointing.
Marc:But do you think that's just because we're sexually wired differently?
Marc:I mean, because like some dudes think of sex as a sport.
Guest:We're definitely wired.
Marc:And so they're just trying to be as good at it as possible.
Guest:Okay, that's weird.
Guest:What do you mean good at it?
Guest:You know.
Guest:Like have as many women as possible?
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:I mean like really show up and do a good job with one woman.
Guest:So she can talk about it or so she could fall in love with you?
Marc:No, because you sort of crave that connection.
Marc:I mean, sex is a very intense connection.
Marc:I don't know that it necessarily has to be emotional, but sexual chemistry and the intensity of a sexual experience is a real buzz.
Marc:It's a real, you know,
Guest:How is that not emotional if sex is important to you?
Marc:What do you mean, how is it not emotional?
Marc:Why does sex have to be loaded up?
Guest:Because if it's important to you and if it is a connection and if it is like a relationship, how is that not emotional?
Marc:Well, what if you just want to have a good time, just want to have good sex?
Guest:I'm all for that in theory.
Guest:I just haven't experienced that in practice.
Marc:You've never had great sex with somebody you didn't like?
Guest:Well, that was something else I figured out in the book, which is where the title came from, which was like, I figured out it was easy to be attracted to somebody that you don't like.
Guest:And then you have decent sex.
Guest:And then later you're like, I'm really mad that he didn't call me.
Guest:And you're like, I don't even like this guy.
Guest:And it is.
Marc:But the sex is good.
Marc:It was fine.
Marc:But then I'm not using that as a bad example.
Guest:He was good-looking, and yeah, I guess it is possible to have great sex with someone you don't like, but it's hard to not have feelings for them, even though you know that it's not reasonable.
Marc:Well, I think this is some sort of weird age-old problem.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Isn't it?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:I mean, there's always going to come down to compromise if you're going to have some sort of harmonious reconciliation, right?
Marc:Well, I think that love is something that...
Marc:It's like wanting love and wanting it to happen in some sort of organic way is tricky, isn't it?
Marc:I mean, I think depending on who you are and what you come from, you're either going to be able to trust somebody or you're not.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And if you choose to trust somebody and you get hurt, how much of that shit can you take?
Marc:before you get sort of jaded and damaged.
Marc:And then you expect like, well, come on, tear into my heart.
Marc:Show me you mean it.
Marc:But I rarely think that it's as one-sided as I'm hearing.
Guest:I understand that.
Guest:I don't think it's one-sided at all.
Guest:No, I think you're right.
Guest:I think people who are hurt...
Guest:may tend to dissociate those two things a little bit more readily.
Guest:What, sex and love?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, like, if you are looking for, you might have an idea of what love is that can be kind of like a bullshit sort of quasi-virginal idea of, like, well, the woman I'm going to fuck is this and the woman I'm going to marry is that.
Guest:And, like, the woman I'm going to marry is never going to, like, you know, fuck me on the first date or fuck like her.
Marc:That's almost mafia shit.
Guest:That's disgusting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what that's about.
Guest:And I think that's changing.
Guest:I think the backlash towards that, like, Rush Limbaugh comment where he called that, you know, very well-spoken young woman who was like, how about I get birth control coverage?
Guest:That he called her a slut and said, like, we should watch you have sex on, like, video if we're going to pay for your, you know, your slut pills.
Guest:And there was such a backlash against that that I thought was really heartening.
Guest:I do think another thing about this generation of women is, like, they are not buying into this, like, if I fuck you on the first date, then I'm, you know, a whore mentality.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, yeah, I mean, and that's something, like, even personally, I've had to sort of reconcile in my head is that, and I did sort of an awful joke about it, but I do it occasionally, that why is there this weird double standard?
Marc:And, you know, what I came up with was not that it's some sort of, you know, remnants of patriarchy that we judge women on a different standard.
Marc:I actually think what I came up with was that I think in our minds, the vagina is more difficult to clean.
Guest:Oh, is that?
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's what you came up with?
Guest:I thought you were going to go biblical.
Guest:I thought you were going to go biological.
Guest:That's kind of biological.
Guest:Well, it is.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:But it's more like Lysol biological than like monkeys want to make sure that the lady carrying the baby is like their baby.
Marc:No, no, no, I'm actually going with the fact that sort of like for some reason, sticking something into something seems more easy to clean up than like, I don't know what's going on in there.
Marc:So I just think that when men judge a woman who has a lot of sex, they're like, oh, there's been so many in there.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So it's like, but in other words, that's like the original.
Guest:It's my personal stupid opinion.
Guest:No, it's fascinating.
Guest:It's fascinating.
Marc:But no, but I don't subscribe to that opinion.
Marc:You've entertained it.
Marc:Well, I was just trying to figure out why the double standard exists.
Marc:And outside of insecurity, could there be some other reason for it?
Marc:But I just think, like you're saying, that women can fuck as much as guys.
Marc:And it's just not that sacred necessarily.
Marc:And when you have a generation of women who have accepted that, then you're reckoning with almost real individuality.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You know, in relation to the man.
Marc:So you're saying that that backlash is indicative of a new generation of women who are like, we don't need to take that shit.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah, I definitely see that.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:You know, vaginas are self-cleaning.
Guest:No, that's what my girlfriend said.
Marc:She said herself.
Marc:No, I understand that.
Marc:No reason trying to be sexist in any way.
Guest:No, no, no, not at all.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:It's not based on practicality.
Guest:No.
Guest:But the competition thing, I think, is important.
Guest:And I don't necessarily think that competition is necessarily the same thing as, like, insecurity.
Guest:That...
Guest:that oh that meant i'm gonna i'm well just like i saw like the frozen planet and the polar bears have to like yeah they have to like how about that male penguin holding that egg for that long unbelievable oh what a great guy yeah oh i love that all penguins lesbians i don't know that's a yes i think most arctic map i know they're not mammals but i'll i'll stop talking about this yeah why go ahead no talk about i think most arctic animals might be kind of lesbians except for polar bears
Guest:The polar bears, the ones battling for the chance to impregnate the female was like, I mean, come on.
Marc:Well, there's weird moments you have when you watch that stuff.
Marc:Like, you know, when you see these animals who keep a harem, you're like, oh, that's clearly, you know, that's how pimping works.
Guest:Very much.
Guest:Oh, yeah, completely.
Guest:And I think that, you know, there's a whole conversation about monogamy and I think monogamy is a compromise between like, you know, civilization and the natural world.
Marc:It's an imposition on...
Marc:On the natural world.
Guest:It's somewhat, but it's also a way to be civilized and a way to say like, all right, if I'm going to marry you, if I'm going to be your property, then I don't want you fucking any other women.
Guest:If you look at the original- That goes both ways.
Guest:It goes both ways.
Guest:And I think that that's where it works.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, I think the reason why it had to be, if it did have to be institutionalized, was it's not really our nature to do that.
Marc:And part of being civilized is working against our nature.
Marc:That's the whole idea of civilization.
Marc:The only reason it was really put into place is so people would stop fucking their family and maybe do something.
Guest:But being jealous is natural, I think.
Marc:No, yeah, I think the seven deadly sins are a pretty practical list of what people do.
Guest:Of a to-do list.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think that if I really consider them, and I seem a little hung up on them, is that that list is something that we all have innately.
Marc:It's whenever any of them get out of hand that they kind of fuck up the balance of things.
Marc:So the idea of sin was really just put in place as a barometer for acting properly.
Guest:To make sure that you have life hygiene or whatever it's called.
Marc:Yeah, act civilized.
Marc:in a way.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like you can't really function if you eat yourself and do a 350 pound mess.
Marc:You can't be too proud because no one will like you.
Guest:Right, you can't and be your friend's accomplishments or else you're not gonna have any friends anymore.
Marc:You'll collapse in on yourself or you'll kill somebody.
Marc:I think a lot of those people, those rules were put in place because all of those lead to horrendous human activity.
Guest:They're like the most natural scale of human emotion you can think of.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But monogamy, I think, it's a mutual compromise on some level.
Guest:It's just a construct that we've all... It's like the stop sign means stop.
Guest:It's like we've all agreed that this would probably be better in the long run if we all sort of...
Marc:Right, because, you know, I think most people, I think most murders take place over money or vaginas.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's like, that's another reason.
Marc:It's like, you fucked him, fuck you.
Marc:I'm going to kill you both.
Guest:You know, it's hard for me to think of it that way because I just, I don't like being the object in that sentence.
Guest:I know that sounds weird, but like, I know that.
Marc:Well, put it on the woman, too.
Guest:No, we don't kill a lot of people.
Marc:We shoplift.
Marc:Do you not watch the shows that my girlfriend watches?
Marc:No.
Guest:Oh, you mean snapped on oxygen?
Marc:No, she watches all the crime shows, all the murder shows.
Marc:I don't even know which ones.
Marc:All I know is every time I turn the TV on, there's some horrendous morbid music.
Guest:Really?
Marc:And some horrible thing happening.
Guest:I like this girl.
Guest:You got to keep her around, Mark.
Guest:She sounds cool.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:I like someone with the darks.
Guest:She reads murder blogs.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:Because I think another big part of like, you know, practical relationship once you're done with all the like crazy screwing and the like, oh my God, you know, I hate this, but I love this.
Guest:And you're like, oh, Jesus Christ, like the drama of your 20s and everything else it is or your 30s, wherever it goes.
Guest:is you just have to find somebody that doesn't make you bored.
Guest:So I really do think that being boring is the worst thing you can say about somebody.
Marc:Yeah, or if you just fall into yourself or patterns.
Marc:I think that's one of the big horrible things about relationships is that exactly the same thing that makes them comfortable is what could make them horrendously tedious, is that you sort of get into systems of behavior.
Marc:And it's all very cute for a while until you realize like,
Marc:I want to do other things.
Guest:So in other words, either the person's boring or you guys make each other boring.
Marc:Well, I'm just saying that like the same thing that you are comforted by, like, you know, she always does that.
Marc:Yeah, we always do this.
Marc:And eventually it's like, oh, she fucking always does.
Marc:I mean, how long does it take for that to happen?
Guest:It depends on the person.
Guest:It depends on the person's like, you know, need for stimulation or change.
Marc:Well, how's this relationship working?
Guest:It's going good.
Marc:What makes it different?
Guest:We, you know, when I met Jack, I was really, I would like sort of finish writing the proposal so I knew what the outline of the book was going to be.
Guest:And I met him and I realized that he was an adult and I really had a lot in common with him and we had a great rapport.
Guest:And it was just easy.
Guest:It just sort of happened right away.
Guest:And he's not in the comedy world, which I also really appreciate.
Guest:And he's incredibly supportive and kind.
Guest:And I could list a bunch of adjectives, but I'll just say that he was different.
Guest:I was in a headspace where I was more sensitive to seeing people that were different in a good way.
Guest:And that once we got together, it was just kind of easy.
Guest:well that's nice it's a nice story right yeah it's a pretty nice story yeah it's okay yeah and what what was the worst one you ever had i mean just all i've only had three boyfriends yeah so that's like worst ones it's like i don't even remember like there's not everything in that book it's like it's just living and like trying to meet people and trying to connect with people and failing and going to the next one but
Guest:Just acquiring or just taking on so much unnecessary pain in the meantime.
Guest:It's all about me.
Guest:The book is about me.
Guest:It's not like, let me tell you the story about this weirdo.
Guest:I don't think it is.
Guest:I tried not to make it be that way.
Guest:I tried to be more self-deprecating than that.
Guest:But I also just tried to use my experience to really write a book about myself because it's a memoir.
Guest:It's not like 101 terrible roommate stories.
Marc:It's not a self-help book.
Guest:oh god no no no no but people extrapolate some you know powerful message about people relate to it and that means a lot to me i never expected to be that to people but i'm happy that i am so and what do you do do you perform stand-up or comedy or not really i i've been doing this like my live podcast more and more and i love i love
Guest:I love it, yeah.
Guest:You must, I mean, can I ask you, like, because I know you do stand up too.
Guest:You want to interview me?
Guest:Yeah, a little.
Guest:Do you feel like most at home when you're talking to yourself on the mic or when you're on stage, or is it just completely different?
Marc:Well, I don't know.
Marc:I think that if I was really left to my own devices, I would probably sit around and think and do things to distract myself from myself and then occasionally go down the street to see the guy at the coffee shop and go, what's up?
Marc:But lately...
Marc:I don't know if I feel more at home on the mic.
Marc:I sort of feel more at home if I'm just sitting on those steps looking at my dumb cats.
Guest:Monkey is my favorite, by the way.
Guest:I'm on the record as saying, no, no, right away.
Guest:Already.
Marc:Isn't he kind of a sweet doofus?
Guest:I really like him.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's my favorite too.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm attached to him.
Guest:You've got to write a book about how the cats represent different parts.
Guest:Be like a Freud kind of like, this cat represents the outside part of yourself that wants to pee on things.
Marc:i think well that's true yeah i i and he wants to get away with it that's well yeah that's i mean that's the thing there's that freedom that's sort of like no one saw me um so the live show i i love doing it i feel most like myself when i am doing the podcast and i it took me a while to figure it out what what how do you prep for it what do you do
Guest:I keep a list during the week of things that I think are interesting and that I want to talk about in like an email draft.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I open the email draft and I just sort of go through it.
Marc:And riff?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like what have been the most important things this year?
Guest:Well, that woman, Polly Perrette from NCIS, tried to get me kicked out of a dog award show.
Marc:The dog award show?
Guest:I went to cover it for New York Magazine because I write for them sometimes.
Guest:I think I saw Conan did something like that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Triumph with her.
Guest:And then Polly Perrette, this woman with bangs and tattoos, which is one, I guess, NCIS, tried to get me kicked out.
Guest:I asked her a couple questions and she got really paranoid.
Guest:I think she was pointing to my nose.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, I think she was.
Marc:But you were on coke or you were doing it?
Guest:I wasn't.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:She was like.
Marc:Jacked.
Guest:She was just, she complained to the publicist that I was like, she asked me if I was going to take any of the dogs home with me in my dress.
Guest:And I'm like, yeah, I did ask that.
Guest:That was a joke.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't you love when jokes are misunderstood?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:More than anything.
Guest:I love it, and I love when people who are on my side, because I am a feminist person, and there are other feminists that will take offense at something I'll say, and we're all on the same side in the big picture of things, but when they fight about stuff I've said is the best.
Marc:It's so funny to me.
Marc:You say that you're a feminist?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:And what does that mean right now?
Guest:It's that I think women are treated.
Guest:We did like shit all over the world.
Guest:And we always have been.
Guest:And, you know, just calling bullshit on sexism and just sort of noticing that like people, especially people who don't think they are, that they don't think of, you know, women as being worse than men kind of act like they're not.
Marc:So worse than men... Or just unequal, unequal.
Marc:No, I know what you mean.
Marc:I know what you mean.
Marc:But is there a difference between the idea of objectification and the idea of less than?
Guest:It depends on what you're saying, but I know what you mean.
Guest:Like if you're deifying someone versus you're like...
Marc:Well, I mean, like, I think there's one thing.
Marc:I think that objectification is more about sex and less than is more about society.
Marc:Like, in the sense that, you know, the less than is like, you know, a woman couldn't do that job or women aren't any good at that.
Marc:And the sex part is like, I want to fuck her.
Marc:Do you know her name?
Marc:No.
Marc:You know, so...
Guest:So one is that they don't think we're smart or qualified because we're what emotional?
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Guest:I'm just like, I'm just trying to think of like, why would, why would men think that women aren't bright?
Guest:Because we were no offense, but we're brighter than you.
Guest:We're, you know, we're intuitive and like, you know, emotionally intelligent on top of that.
Guest:So I think men are generally children.
Guest:No question.
Guest:And I love men.
Guest:I love that they're children.
Guest:I love dogs, too.
Guest:Dogs do stupid shit, and it makes me laugh so hard.
Marc:You know, you just made that jump very quickly.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:Yeah, so you like it when a guy's like, come here, come, that's it.
Marc:Kind of.
Guest:Well, didn't Adam Carolla say something similar on this show?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:He did.
Guest:Did he?
Guest:He did, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, some people make animal analogies.
Marc:I think Adam did, and I know Patrice did.
Marc:But I don't know if I think about it that much, and I don't always know...
Marc:I have to check myself.
Guest:Men are children.
Guest:I don't think in most cases they mean any ill will.
Guest:It's just negligence.
Guest:But I was honest.
Guest:It's like, yeah, but you were incredibly mean.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I do.
Guest:You forgot to say this.
Guest:It's not like you said something mean on purpose because you're not a sociopath.
Guest:You're just a dummy.
Marc:Well, yeah, and I also think that the idea of being emotionally childish is dangerous because if you have unmet childish needs that were left over from bad parenting or whatever and you don't deal with them, there's something very frightening about an angry five-year-old in the body of a 45-year-old man.
Guest:No question, no questions.
Marc:And that, like, it can be very sort of volatile and horrendous.
Guest:Well, that's just, like, narcissism 101.
Guest:I mean, that's, like, my needs, my needs, my needs.
Guest:I never stopped to think of, like, what would the person that I'm screaming at want right now?
Marc:Have you ever dated a screamer?
Guest:Um, no.
Guest:I'm actually pretty, male anger kind of like gives me the, like, I just, I'm gone.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm just not, it's not a, not a thing.
Guest:I'll watch a Tarantino movie anytime, but like, I don't want to be in the room with that.
Marc:You don't want to be in the line, yeah, so that, yeah, we would never have dated.
Guest:I mean, like, maybe like a door slammer if you're on your way out already, like, you know.
Marc:So you prefer the passive sort of stuff to the anger?
Guest:I like not a screamer, but like maybe a raising your voice in order to express yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, just like let's have it out completely.
Guest:Definitely it's a communication.
Guest:Passive is not fun.
Marc:Well, let me ask you this question because like, and I don't want anyone who's listening to, you know, to bust my balls about it because this is your wheelhouse.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I also know a lot about, you know, dogs.
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Kind of.
Marc:Well, what are your feelings?
Marc:And I've asked this of women who talk about this stuff before.
Marc:Do you think that there's any way to frame pornography as empowering?
Guest:Oy vey.
Guest:Oy vey.
Marc:You know what I'm talking about, right?
Guest:Well, traditional.
Marc:No, I'm just saying that now that there is this idea that burlesque performing and that there's been this whole reinvention of the empowered female who is in charge of being exploited.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:In a way that that is some version of feminism.
Guest:I will tell you this.
Guest:It is not revolutionary.
Guest:I will tell you also this.
Guest:I think art is art and porn is porn and that has never been confusing to anybody with a brain.
Guest:And I think as far as porn is concerned, there's a million different kinds.
Guest:I am concerned about people who grow up with the internet version of like... Aren't you?
Guest:Well, because the porn sites I've seen and I've visited, like, they're right next to, like, videos of, like, a guy with his head being blown off.
Guest:You know, like, those kind of clips where it's, like, here's a really, you know, crazy sex thing, and here's a really crazy violent thing, and, you know, here's a third window that you know you're going to open at the same time and have, like, two things going on, and...
Guest:That can't be good for anybody, let alone women or men.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:I think that we have no idea how the pace of technology and the disassociation of imagery affects our brains.
Marc:I think there's going to be a whole new generation of completely numbed out people incapable of intimacy.
Marc:And with no real context for, you know, communication.
Guest:Or like people who are just able to compartmentalize in a way that is just shocking.
Guest:I mean.
Marc:So that's the optimistic version.
Guest:Is that optimistic to be able to like, you know, watch some sort of like, you know, girl with like her head in a toilet while it's being flushed, like being fucked from behind and then like get a call from your mom and be like, oh, hey, what's going on?
Marc:I guess that's not good.
Guest:No.
Marc:What am I doing?
Marc:I'm just watching a video of a girl whose head's in the toilet while she's getting fucked up.
Guest:What kind of mom talk is that, Mark?
Guest:I'm just being honest.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Why are you mad?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Why is she mad?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You raised me.
Marc:Just being honest.
Marc:Maybe you shouldn't have let me have the internet when I was 11.
Guest:Women.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Women.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:We have higher expectations because we, you know, we're empathic.
Guest:So we just there's always like a presumption that like, oh, maybe he feels what I'm feeling, too.
Guest:Or maybe he thinks what I'm thinking, too.
Guest:And this is not the case.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's that's the hardest thing.
Guest:But isn't that kind of nice, too, though, to have a little unpredictability?
Marc:Isn't that with people in general, though, that you assume like, you know, why can't they just sense what...
Guest:I think as long as they're funny, it's fine.
Guest:Honestly, the only problem I've gotten into is when people just don't have a sense of humor.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Don't you think that's the worst thing in the world?
Marc:No sense of humor?
Guest:Have you met a lot of people that just don't have a sense of humor?
Guest:Because every once in a while, it'd be like friends of family or just people who work friends of friends.
Marc:You mean bores?
Marc:What is... I can forego a sense of humor if someone's nuts.
Marc:So if they're funny.
Marc:Right, but they're not funny on purpose.
Guest:Yeah, that's great too.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:So if they're insane, but even if they have a good heart, they work for AIDS, but there's just this earnestness.
Guest:It's kind of the worst, right?
Marc:no no I agree with you like you know how do I engage where do we you know where because I think humor is a very immediate connection or is it like are we just addicted to like having fun it's like this isn't fun no no no I think that when you engage with somebody comedically that you know you sort of break through like there's that moment of release or that moment where you know all that other stuff kind of peels away and you have a sort of a pure moment and you're not just sitting there with somebody who's rattling off and is
Marc:like a job interview or something may as well be well yeah or you're just not interested or yeah I mean I'm sure that those people find people who are equally as uninteresting and and uh maybe their needs are different Julie I'd say I'd hope so but I don't care it's not for you it's not it's not for me so when you're in therapy what what are the issues
Guest:My emotions, my own emotions.
Guest:Oh, what if I'm afraid of this?
Guest:What if I'm scared?
Marc:What if, what if?
Marc:I mean, don't you have more concrete evidence?
Marc:Like, I'm afraid of this?
Guest:Sure, but you know what it is?
Guest:I'm afraid of this happening and me being sad about it.
Marc:So you project.
Guest:I'm afraid.
Guest:You're full of dread.
Guest:I'm afraid of my own emotions.
Guest:Because if they're so big, then that sucks.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Not that the world will end, but it'll feel like the world ends, and isn't that bad enough?
Marc:But this all seems preemptive.
Marc:Do you have events where you're like, bleh?
Marc:You mean, am I convinced that like... Where your emotions have just pummeled you into a mass, or...
Guest:I think that happens all the time.
Guest:Especially when I'm... Is it happening now?
Guest:No.
Guest:Right now I'm doing okay.
Guest:I was nervous coming over, though.
Guest:I get nervous... Is this working out all right?
Guest:It's going fine.
Guest:I think it's going okay.
Guest:Are you feeling okay?
Guest:Did you have a... Do you need a Vicks?
Guest:You have a Nicorette?
Marc:A Vicks?
Marc:Will you rub my stomach with that?
Guest:With your stomach or your chest?
Marc:I like it on my stomach.
Guest:You do?
Marc:I've never had that.
Guest:That's weird, right?
Marc:I've never had Vicks Vapor.
Guest:It's so old-fashioned.
Marc:But it's so not Jewish.
Guest:No, you're right.
Guest:Like the menthol camphor, like oily ointment on like... Have some soup and go to sleep.
Guest:Or a trimannic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:Robitussin.
Guest:It's like legitimate snake oil.
Guest:It's like what they'd sell door-to-door, like an ointment.
Marc:Well, it feels nice.
Marc:I mean, at least there's a... I don't know if it really does anything for your health, but it's kind of nice to... I think that menthol... It's fine.
Guest:It's like an essential oil, which is also very goyish.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think.
Marc:Yeah, I like that you use those words.
Marc:You're like old school with the Goyish and the Oli.
Guest:But you're as Jewish as I am.
Marc:No, no doubt.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That's the beauty of the diversity of Semitism is you can...
Guest:have somebody who's as like, you know.
Marc:I'm just, I'm just, I'm telling you, I was just fortunate enough to grow up in Albuquerque.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But if I had grown up where you grew up with my grandparents down the street.
Guest:Literally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would have.
Guest:Oh, very much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very much.
Marc:Did your grandparents move down the street?
Guest:My grandparents moved to Scarza after they, I mean, like my mom's from Flatbush, my dad's from the Bronx.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, we're talking about real serious Jew stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went to Hebrew school with Nick Kroll.
Marc:Really?
Guest:We went to Solomon Schechter together.
Marc:He's also very Jew-y.
Guest:Yes, he is.
Guest:Yes, he is.
Guest:And he was then too.
Guest:We were in the same class together for like eight years.
Guest:Was he funny?
Guest:Very funny.
Guest:Always.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And adorable.
Marc:But there's that whole culture of that, that like I always really worshipped in... There was some...
Marc:pain of not growing up around it but when i go to my grandmother's house i mean we'd have to go to her place to buy you know the smoked fish you know she would cook those things like you know i i'm very familiar with that whole world and i worked at a jewish deli in boston when i was in college and i became an old jewish man i was like maybe 19 or 20 years old and i was like what that how is that not good you know and i and there was also these weird mind-blowing moments about
Marc:There was actually a moment where I didn't really register, and this is elitism, there's no doubt it's elitism, that Jews had regular jobs.
Marc:What did you think?
Marc:Well, no, I met a Jewish cop.
Marc:I met a Jewish plumber.
Marc:I met a Jewish hitman.
Marc:You did not.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Really?
Marc:A contractor, they called him.
Marc:Really?
Marc:But I was like, wait a minute.
Marc:Jews do this and then like I completely put you know in my mind Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky didn't exist of course it you know they Jews do all kinds of things but I had this weird elitism about you know what Jews were and I think I've disassembled that almost completely well I feel like that maybe was a good look for you like just going full forward into the like nose first into the deli counter guy I did I did I worked with some very old Jews
Marc:But they were Boston, so it was a little different.
Marc:Yes, that is different.
Marc:That was the whole other thing that I didn't realize that there were regional old Jews.
Marc:Like the Boston old Jews.
Guest:Oh, certainly.
Marc:There's like two or three different kinds of bread in the Boston Jewish lexicon in terms of rye bread.
Guest:Well, there's seeded, unseeded.
Guest:What's the third one?
Marc:Well, there was rye.
Marc:There was light rye.
Marc:There was the dark rye.
Guest:No, there's light rye.
Guest:No, wait.
Marc:Light rye, dark rye, pumpernickel, and sissel.
Marc:So sissel in Boston was the seeded rye, which was a white rye.
Marc:And then dark rye was really not pumpernickel.
Marc:It was a darker rye.
Marc:And then you had the pumpernickel, and then you had the regular white rye.
Marc:So there was four fucking breads.
Guest:I'm starving.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then there was these old guys who were like, give me the heel.
Marc:I want the heel of the bread.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, and that means you had to... You want to scoop that out and put some like... You had to cut the end.
Marc:Yeah, right, there was that.
Guest:You scoop it out and then you put something really fishy in it.
Marc:Yep, kishka, I know what that is.
Marc:That was around, but I missed out on that.
Guest:But it's cozy, isn't it, to kind of have those in your back...
Guest:I mean, even though it's not you or it's not what you do day to day, it's nice to know you come from something.
Marc:Chopped liver, very important.
Marc:My grandmother's chopped liver recipe.
Guest:I will say growing up, you know, however I did, wherever I did, it's not like I liked it.
Guest:It's not like I felt included.
Guest:I mean, I didn't go to sleepaway camp.
Guest:I didn't have like a great experience where I just, I was kind of like, I sort of was not.
Marc:Are you trying to say you're not a Jap?
Guest:Oh, I'm a Jap.
Guest:Oh, Mark Maron.
Guest:Let's not go.
Guest:Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
Marc:I love Japs who are in Jap denial.
Guest:That to me is the most hilarious thing.
Guest:Oh, that's hilarious, isn't it?
Guest:Isn't that funny?
Marc:What, me?
Marc:No, I'm not a Jap.
Marc:I was a hippie Jew.
Guest:Oh, like that's not the same fucking thing.
Guest:No, yeah, the hippie Japs, yeah.
Guest:Oh, like the fish bumper stickers on the SUVs and the like... Well, yeah, there's some serious... And also, it's...
Guest:brilliant about that like the jubu thing like it's like um my brother's one of that kind of well that's the thing it's like adina on absolutely fabulous you have somebody who's like you know life is defined by owning things yeah who's like buddhism sweetie yeah jubu thing that whole the whole um what do you call it what do they call it the reboot the uh the reboot jews never never been invited
Marc:But that's our generation, though.
Marc:That's our generation trying to honor what they came from and simultaneously hate it.
Guest:You think?
Guest:Because I think it's just like people who were popular or liked summer camp wanting to extend that adolescence.
Guest:I think it's like, I was so happy in camp.
Guest:I played soccer and everybody was so nice to me.
Guest:And now I don't have a boyfriend.
Guest:Let's just have camp again, guys.
Guest:And they go get like a really nice suite at Palm Springs.
Guest:And you know that, like, where does that money come from?
Marc:Well, no, obviously.
Marc:Dad?
Marc:But I had, yeah, maybe.
Marc:But I had an experience where I was invited to one of these sort of reboot seders.
Marc:And it was okay.
Marc:But what it made me do, it was like added a, it was at a rock club, actually.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And they had some groovy rabbi.
Marc:God spare me from a groovy rabbi.
Marc:And they had some caterer who was doing his interpretation.
Guest:Like fusion pot roasts.
Marc:Yeah, fusion seder food.
Marc:And all it did was make me miss the shitty seders that I grew up with.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:I'm sure.
Marc:It's like, this is horrendous.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, we're all here because we don't want to be at our parents' house.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yet this is so much worse.
Marc:It's so much worse.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Even if that food was better, but you're not looking for good food at a Jew house.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're looking at Jew food.
Guest:You know, as I get older, I just realize, like, God spare me from a twist on things.
Guest:Like, how dreadful.
Marc:A deconstructed kugel?
Marc:How dreadful.
Guest:dreadful you want you want to kugel with foam like really like three noodles this has been this has been working for how long exactly yeah since like my grandfather my grandfather actually escaped uh poland because he beat up a cossack and then he sent out for my family later really so before the real the oh really before the holocaust yeah
Guest:So you think you can improve on his kugel?
Guest:Like the kugel that fueled a thousand?
Marc:I think that's what it represents is some connection to that.
Marc:And once you start deconstructing it or injecting odd spices.
Guest:Well, but that could be interpreted as like, you know, the blonde you married injecting odd, talk about injecting odd spices.
Marc:No, I did that.
Marc:I married that one.
Guest:I am so attracted to waspy men.
Guest:And I think that that is another misunderstanding between like Jewish men and Jewish women that we just have.
Guest:Speaking for myself, I completely relate.
Guest:I have that in common.
Guest:I find that like waspy blonde sort of Andrew McCarthy and pretty in pink kind of thing like absolutely irresistible.
Marc:Your boyfriend is Jewish or no?
Guest:No, no, he's a wasp.
Guest:But it's like a very port noise complaint sort of thing.
Guest:And I don't know if men realize it works the other way around because it's definitely...
Marc:And you think that is a what?
Marc:Where does that come from?
Guest:I just think that they're just so they're just so pretty.
Guest:And they just withhold.
Guest:No, not that it's withholding, but I just think that it's, I guess, exotic.
Guest:And I think it's also has to do with, like, wanting to impress somebody with your like, isn't it interesting how ethnic and crazy I am?
Marc:I get to be the crazy one.
Guest:I get to be the crazy one.
Marc:And I don't have to lock into the mirror crazy.
Guest:Yes, it's the Julie show and the audience is respectful.
Guest:They're not like throwing bagels.
Marc:Or they're not going, no, right, of course I understand.
Guest:Or stepping on your, like getting your spotlight.
Marc:But that's the fear I was talking about, about the patterns.
Marc:There's nothing more predictable than walking into a middle-class Jewish relationship.
Marc:If you were brought up in a certain way, I do a joke about that, that I said, you know, my first wife was a Jew, which was a mistake, because when you marry a Jew and you're a Jew, that means everything you hated about going home is now in your house.
Marc:And I think there's something about that.
Guest:Oh, no question.
Marc:The fighting the familiarity, because you can fall into a pattern with a Jew.
Marc:Like, even right here, I know who you are.
Guest:I know who you are, too.
Guest:I completely get you.
Guest:I completely got you.
Guest:I will listen to your show and it will, like not, I'm not going to say that you're, because not that you're predictable because your mind is, you know, really rich and you do go in different, but I know what you're going to say sometimes.
Guest:And it's just a matter of having a conversation with your own brain.
Guest:Sometimes that's sort of hellish when, and I'm not saying it's like, well, then you got to love yourself.
Guest:It's like, I'm crazy about myself.
Guest:I mean, I'm comfortable with myself at the very least.
Guest:It doesn't have to do with that.
Marc:Come on, but Jewish guys are good.
Guest:Jewish guys are great.
Guest:I love Jewish guys.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:I really do.
Marc:But isn't that familiar?
Guest:But I love like a blonde and like a boating kind of thing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Jack's sails.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:It's just fascinating.
Guest:But he's, you know.
Marc:You're not getting any shit from your folks?
Guest:No.
Guest:At this point, I think they've resigned.
Guest:Just find somebody.
Guest:We want you to be happy.
Guest:That and that.
Guest:Yes, of course.
Guest:And they know that I'm stubborn, that I'm in this career path.
Guest:I'm not going to go to law school anytime soon.
Guest:I'm stubborn enough to do it.
Guest:What's your plan B?
Guest:Taking plan B. This is it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What was plan A?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:It took me a really long time to figure out plan A because I knew I loved comedy and I was trying to do different things.
Marc:Okay, so you do the podcast, you've written the book, you've developed a bit for television, you've written a bit for television.
Guest:Yeah, I'm still working on developing stuff for television, which I really like.
Guest:I'm sort of a TV girl more than anything else.
Guest:But before that, I did theater.
Guest:I did sketch stuff at UCB.
Guest:When I graduated NYU, UCB had sort of just come to New York, so it was a good opportunity to me to figure out what I wanted to do and take classes, and improv wasn't really my thing, but I liked sketch, and I tried stand-up.
Guest:It wasn't necessarily...
Guest:I did a whole bunch of different things and then eventually either someone hires you or you find what you love.
Marc:What did you end up being hired?
Marc:What was your first break?
Guest:I staffed at Best Week Ever with Paul Tompkins.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Staffed at Billy Eichner's show.
Guest:I just am going to start writing for him again at the end of the month.
Marc:What show was that?
Guest:Billy on the Street, Funny or Die, Billy on the Street.
Guest:I don't know if people have seen it because Fuse isn't on all the cable networks, but now it should be.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, yeah, a couple other gigs and then, like, some prose stuff.
Guest:Like, I wrote stuff for New York Magazine and Salon and got something in the New York Times, which got my book thing.
Guest:But it was just all me kind of, like, throwing stuff out and knowing that I had a voice, knowing that I, you know, had something to say, but not quite exactly.
Guest:It wasn't as simple as, like, I'm a stand-up.
Guest:I'm going to keep trying this and...
Marc:Banging my head against the wall.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't... Yeah, branch it out.
Guest:But I think part of me always wished is that it was that linear.
Marc:You don't want to be a comedic performer.
Guest:What does that mean?
Marc:Like a comedic actress.
Guest:Like Tilda Swinton.
Guest:No, like who?
Guest:Do you sing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like Bette Midler.
Guest:I love Bette Midler.
Marc:You don't want to be Bette Midler?
Guest:none of us can be bet midler well i know but you know there's a style i wouldn't mind it i mean you thought about doing a cabaret show yeah but it's uh yeah yeah i have thought about it and then i kind of go back to doing what i was doing i'll just write this i'll just write i can you know what if you can write then you should yeah right i mean like yeah it's something that sucks to do it's boring it's painful like agonizing you're alone with yourself you want to snack yeah instead but like if you can and you read something later and be like wow i'm good at this then you you've just got to do that that's
Marc:So the dream is to be a television producer?
Guest:I love that.
Guest:And I, you know, love doing the podcast so much that, like, I also have to say, like, Tom Sharpling's been the biggest influence on me as not... Going into podcasting, I have to say, like, he was really intimidating.
Guest:Like, I never thought I... And I can't do what he does, but...
Guest:I think of him as like a broadcaster, not just a podcaster.
Guest:And my goal is to like keep getting better so that I'm going to stay here because I'm good.
Guest:Hopefully.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like doing it.
Guest:Do you check things like ratings or people downloading your thing or like those things?
Marc:um i don't check my numbers you know i i get somewhat obsessed with the itunes rating which is out of all of them means nothing but that's the number that you check no there's no number to check or that's the thing yeah but that's not it's based on an algorithm it's not based on you know it's it changes daily it's like amazon how do you how do you drive yourself crazy lately
Marc:Um, it's certainly a luxury problem and it's not a complaint, but I'm not used to being this busy.
Marc:And the feeling that, you know, nothing is slowing down really kind of fucks me up sometimes just because I go, okay, I can finally, oh, fuck, I got to do that.
Guest:But isn't that like the fear, like in that Joan Rivers documentary where she says- Did you write for her?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I love Joan Rivers.
Marc:There's nothing not to love.
Guest:I mean, what did you write for her?
Guest:I've written on a couple of different shows.
Guest:But not her stand-up?
Guest:No, I haven't written her stand-up, but I wrote for her on a few different reality shows.
Guest:I went with her to her first appearance in Letterman.
Guest:I rode with her in the limo when she went back after eight years.
Marc:Why do you love Joan Rivers?
Guest:She's a really good person and she's really funny and she's sort of like the last man standing from that time that's like truly... She's like a legend, no question.
Guest:And she's also just incredibly kind.
Guest:Is she?
Guest:Oh, so great to work for.
Guest:Like you pitch her a joke and she'll make sure to be like, that was very good.
Guest:You know, she's just very, very warm.
Marc:And also very Jewish.
Guest:The Jewishest.
Guest:But she, in that documentary, had that thing where she'll take a job because her worst fear she showed at her calendar and if it's blank...
Marc:that's when she gets scared but like in other words the other flip side of that fear is that it just never stops and you're busy and i just don't know how to like because i've been self-employed so long and i've certainly been the guy that's had an empty calendar yes and the dread about work in the past was really like you know i would be terrified to do things and i had to put a lot of energy into pretending like i wasn't terrified
Marc:I don't have that fear anymore.
Marc:Now I'm just concerned about my health and about exhaustion and about overextending myself and just tapping out.
Guest:So it sounds like you're trying to focus more internally, but you have the anxiety that the external is going to fuck with what you need to do.
Marc:Well, there's that and there's just general anxiety.
Marc:I eat a lot of nicotine lozenges because I think I'm medicating anxiety.
Guest:I see.
Guest:So in other words, is your anxiety that you have all this stuff to do and you won't get it done or you won't do it well?
Marc:well just that i don't want to uh it'll be your life and you won't have anything i just know no i just know my brain that like i have to be careful about like you know anxiety leading to uh aggravation leading to me so you're afraid of your feelings too i'm afraid of this one because i know like i have a very i have a rare talent to say one or two things and destroy almost everything
Guest:And that will sort of like wipe out everything that you've done before, your relationships.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:I mean, it doesn't take a lot if you focus your rage or your entitlement in a certain way to destroy things.
Guest:We have so much rage, don't we?
Guest:like a frankenstein grunt but no i'm i'm i'm very angry and i try to and that's i think my biggest challenge is managing more than like depression i think managing my my anger because it feels like a different energy in the way that like anxiety and depression go together but anxiety seems like wired and depression seems like low energy well i think that that whole idea that depression is anger turned inward i never really got it but you know i yeah if you beat yourself down that can lead to that what are you angry about
Guest:It could be anything from like I spilled coffee to like my career is not where I want it to be.
Marc:But where does the river of tappable rage start from?
Guest:I mean, you mean like the source?
Guest:Are we going back to like childhood?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Oh, not being popular, like being, you know, not really having friends or fitting in or feeling like I wasn't, you know...
Guest:recognized by my peers, like my parents always were incredibly complimentary of me, but I wasn't sort of like, I was never cool, Mark.
Marc:So you never fit in?
Guest:No, but now I'm okay.
Guest:Did you put a lot of energy into trying?
Guest:You know what, that's a really good question, because no, I didn't.
Guest:I just sort of expected that everybody would be like,
Guest:get a load of klausner like let's let's give her a look-see and it wasn't a question of like hey guys i'm wearing what you're wearing let's maybe go hang out at recess or like hey what are we doing this weekend it was just kind of you know very narcissistic standoffish sort of like i'm great why don't they know that fuck them i hate them like very very yeah very um
Marc:just so juvenile and embarrassing because i think mine comes from that the actual pain of exclusion that i think that most of like i never felt like i bullied kind of thing well not bullied but i never felt confident ever in my you know in my younger self so i was always looking to attach to people that seemed to have confidence or seemed to have a personality that you know really stood out
Marc:And it wasn't until college where the anger sort of started to define me, but at least I had a personality.
Marc:But I think most of my rage just comes from being too sensitive.
Marc:I've always feeling like everything's hurting me.
Guest:So if somebody says something and you immediately take it to mean that you're really who you think you are.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I developed a sort of preemptive personality where I would lash out and be completely distrustful before any relationship could even be...
Guest:But it sounds like you were forging relationships with people that, I mean, at the time, that you thought could forge your way, that you could sort of hitch your cart to.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:But you didn't trust those people either?
Marc:Well, it just never really panned out because what you're really missing is within you.
Marc:And I think that because my father was so narcissistic and unpredictable.
Guest:You've got a lot of father stuff, I know.
Guest:And bipolar.
Marc:But I got mother stuff too.
Marc:She was pretty detached and self-involved.
Guest:But the father thing is your, I think.
Marc:Well, when you grow up around someone who's volatile and unpredictable.
Guest:There's no question.
Guest:There's no center.
Marc:Yeah, but you're also attracted to that.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course, because it's home.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So that stuff, yeah.
Guest:Man, this turned out to be really... I was going to apologize, but I'm not going to, actually.
Marc:No, just let me sit in it.
Marc:I see how you are.
Marc:All right, so we good?
Guest:I think we're good.
Marc:You feel okay about it?
Guest:I feel good, but I want to say goodbye to your cat monkey before I go.
Marc:Do you feel like I was here for you?
Guest:Completely.
Guest:I feel really good.
Guest:I feel much better than I did when I was coming here and I was nervous and I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:I wasn't too cranky.
Guest:No, you weren't cranky at all, but I don't, I didn't, you know, like I know you in that way that I know, you know, who you are to some extent.
Marc:But I know I told you I was sick and I was kind of being bitchy.
Guest:Well, you're like, normally I would reschedule.
Guest:You're like...
Guest:But I want to go through with this.
Marc:And I was like, oh, thank you.
Marc:What I did in that email.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:You know what, though?
Guest:Smell it from a mile away.
Guest:And I know how to.
Marc:I knew exactly what I was doing.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:I know how to deal with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I was doing a standard male thing that you probably hate.
Guest:No, I don't hate it.
Guest:You know what it is?
Guest:I don't want to break up.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Do you say that?
Guest:I don't want to break up with you?
Marc:No, I don't want to break up.
Marc:Do you want to break up?
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's what you do when you want to break up with someone?
Marc:No, I'd stay with them until it completely destroys itself.
Guest:So you just sort of like insert doubt.
Guest:You kind of like plant doubt?
Marc:I'm a big doubt inserter.
Guest:You're the doubt planter?
Marc:Yeah, I'm a doubt inserter.
Guest:I will say this.
Marc:Doubt planter.
Guest:I completely get it.
Guest:I completely appreciate it.
Guest:And I like you very much.
Marc:I like you too.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:That was interesting.
Marc:That was an engaging chat with Ms.
Marc:Klausner.
Marc:Hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:Please go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get some just coffee.coop on there.
Marc:And watch me.
Marc:You can watch me tomorrow night on The Burn with Jeff Ross on Comedy Central.
Marc:The lovely Jeff Ross.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get the app.
Marc:You can get on the mailing list.
Marc:You can buy some merch.
Marc:You can kick in a few shekels.
Marc:You can see he's been on the show so you don't bother me.
Marc:You can ask me to put people on the show that have already been on the show.
Marc:You can leave comments on the comment board.
Marc:If you're an asshole, you can express it there.
Marc:If you're nice, you can express it there.
Marc:I prefer the latter.
Marc:What else do I have to tell you?
Marc:I appreciate everything you're doing out there.
Marc:That sounded kind of funny.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:Boomer.
Marc:Boomer.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:All right, well, Boomer is not happening.
Marc:Did I cover everything I need to cover?
Marc:Did I tell you that, like... All right, I didn't tell you this.
Marc:okay so I go over to tape the show today with Jeff the burn and they asked me if I wanted them to order dinner for me so I said you know I would like a steak salad from this place where I got the menu so I don't even know what I'm telling you so I go I get to the dressing room like this is this is me voice this is not you know I'm not this is not radio voice or podcast voice
Marc:So I get there and there's my salad and it must've just arrived because with the salad in a separate container was like a homemade chip, which like with homemade chocolate chips and three kinds of ice cream inside of it.
Marc:And, uh, and three sauces, caramel sauce, um, hot fudge and whipped cream.
Marc:Now, I'm not on diet right now, but that was fucking ridiculous.
Marc:Like, I saw that and I was like, are you fucking serious?
Marc:Why would anyone do this to me?
Marc:And I fucking shoved half of it in my mouth and I was just dipping my knife in the caramel sauce and eating it.
Marc:If I didn't hate myself for eating, I would weigh a lot more.
Marc:And I'm not going to say I'm fat because I know that upsets people.
Marc:But when I was eating that, all I could think was like, I don't ever, ever want this to stop.
Marc:And then the other part of me said, you're going to have a heart attack.
Marc:And I threw like half of it away.
Marc:But they were big halves.
Marc:Okay, I threw a quarter of it away.
Marc:And I had to fight myself to not go into the garbage can and get it back out.
Marc:Anyways, so let's just keep that between us.
Marc:The chip which thing.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Tenacious D on Thursday.
Marc:All right?
Marc:You can tell people about that, but not the chip which thing.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's it.
you