Episode 296 - Sara Benincasa
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuckstables?
Marc:What the fucktuckians?
Marc:What the fuckasians?
Marc:Tennesseans?
Marc:Does that work?
Marc:In honor of my gigs, my upcoming gigs in Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:Did that work?
Marc:this is mark maron this is my show welcome to it uh thank you for listening thank you for all of your support and that is truly gracious i'm being humble here it's late at night i'm uh i'm doing this uh later than usual it's quiet here at the cat ranch i'm in the garage and uh of course uh fourth of july still going on in my neighborhood saw some fireworks on the way home
Marc:Never clear as the weeks go by whether or not it's gunplay or fireworks.
Marc:And also, it seems that the stray cat who I fed wet food once is not leaving and has begun to bully my other cat.
Marc:I've talked about this before.
Marc:I'm just giving you an update.
Marc:Things are quiet here at the ranch.
Marc:But I will say this.
Marc:If you live in the Los Angeles area and you would like to come see me ramble through some new material, I'm not I'm going to present it like that.
Marc:I'm going to be improvising some new material and working through some stuff.
Marc:I will be at the Steve Allen Theater, the Trippany House, as it's called now.
Marc:That will be July 17th.
Marc:That's soon.
Marc:That's soon.
Marc:What day is that?
Marc:I don't know, Mark.
Marc:Why don't you take a look at the calendar?
Marc:Oh, there's the calendar.
Marc:July 17th, that's a Tuesday.
Marc:Well, that can't be bad.
Marc:Spend an evening.
Marc:Spend a Tuesday night with me, just me, and lower your expectations.
Marc:It's like 10 bucks.
Marc:What do you think about that?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:What do you think about that?
Marc:But with that comes my need for you to be there for me and help me work through some stuff.
Marc:Can you do that in person?
Marc:Do it.
Marc:July 17th, 8 o'clock p.m., the Steve Allen Theater, the Tripany House, as it's called now.
Marc:Please do it.
Marc:Come on out.
Marc:Nashville.
Marc:Can we talk for a minute?
Marc:Nashville, Tennessee, July 20 and 21 at Zaney's.
Marc:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:Just for last festival, Montreal.
Marc:I'll be doing a live WTF and an hour or so of live stand-up on July 28th.
Marc:Come to that.
Marc:I think that's enough for now.
Marc:Well, I'll be in Chicago at the main stage August 2nd through 5th.
Marc:You might want to get tickets to that.
Marc:Sold out quickly there.
Marc:Last time, looking forward to that.
Marc:Enough.
Marc:Enough with me.
Marc:Enough plugging me.
Marc:What about me?
Marc:Oh, can I just take a break?
Marc:It's just been a long day.
Marc:It's been a long fucking day, all right?
Marc:And I gotta hand it to you people who work in offices.
Marc:I was in an office all day.
Marc:I hosted, maybe some of you watched it, I hosted Attack of the Show on the G4 network.
Marc:I hosted it because I wanted to see if I was likable on television.
Marc:I know I'm an acquired taste here on the headphones, but what about on television?
Marc:And I got to say, you know, I think it went pretty well.
Marc:It'd been a long time since I'd read a prompter or interacted with other people on camera or moved around or or did jokes that were not completely written by me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I wanted to try it or interviewed people on camera.
Marc:And I got to say, I walked away from the shows not feeling any remorse, not beating the shit out of myself, not second guessing myself.
Marc:I don't know if things are turning around for me in my head or what, but it's getting harder to be miserable, at least today.
Marc:Can I just have this few minutes?
Marc:Would that be all right with you people?
Marc:Can you allow me that?
Marc:Sure you can.
Marc:But it was fun.
Marc:I interviewed Dan Harmon yesterday.
Marc:You can go see that at the Attack of the Show website.
Marc:He dished a little on why he left community.
Marc:Tonight, we recorded one.
Marc:I'll be interviewing my friend Chris Cooper, Coop, the artist.
Marc:But it was fun.
Marc:I'm not going to sit here and toot my own horn, but I think I did all right with it.
Marc:And it was a fine time.
Marc:And I want to thank the people over at G4 for making that happen.
Marc:But let's get back to the office scene.
Marc:Look, I am lucky and fortunate to have the life I have.
Marc:It didn't come easy, but, you know, I'm doing OK right now.
Marc:And I had moments in that office.
Marc:I really don't want to alienate any of you who are sitting in cubicles right now.
Marc:Trying to make it okay.
Marc:I'm sure plenty of you have good jobs.
Marc:You like your jobs, but I don't know.
Marc:Am I fucking wrong?
Marc:Or is there something about offices that literally just suck the soul out of you?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It happens in any office.
Marc:It would happen in an office with me if I was just there.
Marc:Yeah, for an hour.
Marc:I don't know if it's the lighting.
Marc:I don't know if it's the way it's structured.
Marc:I had my own room, but I looked at it rows of cubicles and I and I just maybe I'm projecting, but I swear I felt the quiet festering of people in their cubicles trying to make everything OK to be there.
Marc:I don't know how people I don't know how to act appropriately.
Marc:In a fucking office.
Marc:I swear to God, if I didn't have Jessica, I would be festering all day just because my brain works like that.
Marc:For the most part, it's about 15 percent creativity, about five percent.
Marc:I'm hungry and about 80 percent sexual.
Marc:That's just the way my brain works.
Marc:And I imagine that office drama must unfold all the time.
Marc:I feel like an idiot not knowing that.
Marc:how offices work but i have to assume that some of you are just festering at that about that woman or that man who you see every fucking day you can't talk to i don't know how people just aren't masturbating furiously in offices every day does that happen i mean if i had my own office i don't know how many times i jerk off in one day does that happen in offices
Marc:I just don't know.
Marc:But you people are the true heroes of the human spirit to tolerate that and deal with it every day.
Marc:And I thank you for listening.
Marc:And God, I hope I make your life a little easier.
Marc:Did I even say who was going to be on the show today?
Marc:Sarah Benincasa, the comedic performer and author of Agora Fabulous, Dispatches from My Bedroom, will be here momentarily.
Marc:I went to the Rose Bowl Flea Market, and I'm just no good at it.
Marc:I watch American Pickers.
Marc:Is that what it's called?
Marc:American Pickers.
Marc:I watch a lot of shows that my girlfriend Jessica has roped me into.
Marc:A lot of house hunters.
Marc:A lot of...
Marc:I'm glad we've moved away from from the the the hoarding shows.
Marc:And now we're into something more proactive where people aren't, you know, sadly stockpiling garbage in their homes and unearthing dead animals.
Marc:And now people are buying homes, at least.
Marc:I watch American Pickers.
Marc:I used to love flea markets.
Marc:And now I went to this flea market and I was immediately exhausted.
Marc:I found the antiques were draining me of my life force.
Marc:I think that's called, it's antique fatigue or antique, I believe was something suggested to me.
Marc:But what's amazing about flea markets is I always assume
Marc:I don't know how to get a deal.
Marc:I don't know how to haggle.
Marc:I don't want to play that game.
Marc:I know that you're supposed to, and you watch American Pickers, and I'm like, fuck, I've got to haggle for everything.
Marc:There's no shame in it.
Marc:But there's part of me that just doesn't want to deal with the drama of haggling.
Marc:I bought a light.
Marc:I wanted a light fixture.
Marc:That's what I was looking for.
Marc:I was looking for specific things.
Marc:I found a light fixture.
Marc:It was marked $115.
Marc:I say, look, I'll give you $84.
Marc:The guy goes, sold.
Marc:But then I did the time between the purchase, like the time where I reached up and I got I got hold of the chain that the light was hanging from.
Marc:And the time between me saying awesome and saying, oh, did I just get fucked was literally it almost happened simultaneously.
Marc:It was like, awesome.
Marc:I'm an idiot.
Marc:So now I've got this thing that I didn't think I got a good deal on because why do you sell it to me for such a cheap price so quick?
Marc:I figured it might cost him $10 and I feel like an asshole.
Marc:So now every time I turn the light on, it might as well have the word asshole written on it.
Marc:Is that just me?
Marc:I think I get ripped off with everything.
Marc:I've just got to start making my own shit.
Marc:I've got to open the shop.
Marc:I've got to make light fixtures.
Marc:I have to start learning how to make shoes.
Marc:I've got to make my own pants.
Marc:Greg Barrett makes his own pants.
Marc:Why can't I make my own pants?
Marc:I don't think I should pursue television anymore.
Marc:I don't think I should do my...
Marc:my ifc show i think it's just time for me to start manufacturing uh what i need to survive i'm going to grow vegetables i'm going to make my own pants make my own shirts i'm going to uh fix my chimney that that's what i'm going to do i'm going to live off the land and i'm going to open up a mark manufacturer i'm going to create a small factory and uh and i'm going to provide jobs
Marc:That's what I'm going to do.
Marc:I'm bringing manufacturing back to the U.S.
Marc:on a very small scale.
Marc:I'm going to be the only employee.
Marc:Jessica will help me when she has time.
Marc:And perhaps we'll create a line of things for you to purchase as well, which I'll put up on the website.
Marc:So look for that.
Marc:Look for that.
Marc:I have to come up with a brand name.
Marc:So I'll work on that.
Marc:And again, if you're in an office and it's okay, go masturbate in the bathroom.
Marc:Just do yourself a favor.
Marc:Cut loose.
Marc:Is that okay?
Marc:Oh, the lack of intimacy in an office is brutal.
Marc:It's even going to the bathroom in an office.
Marc:I mean, going to the bathroom, because everybody goes around the same time, disguising the stuff.
Marc:You know, God bless you if you believe that kind of stuff.
Guest:I saw you once.
Guest:I've seen you perform once at, um, when I used to host a show with Greg Johnson.
Marc:What happened to that show?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:You don't host it anymore?
Marc:What was it called?
Marc:The Sex and Other Human Activity?
Guest:No, that I host.
Guest:This was a show called Get in Bed on SiriusXM.
Guest:But that show, Sex and Other Human Activities, I host with Marcus Parks, who does tech for your show at the Bell House when you do it in Brooklyn.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's a nice guy.
Marc:Yeah, he's so great.
Marc:Wait, so now a sex show.
Marc:I just did another sex show.
Marc:And what qualifies you to be a sex show person?
Guest:This is going to come as a surprise, but I'm not a virgin.
Marc:Really?
Guest:No.
Guest:And I know I might need to leave because I just, I know.
Marc:Unclean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Dirty.
Marc:Unclean.
Marc:Dirty.
Marc:Just filthy.
Marc:No wonder my cat didn't really take you right away.
Marc:That's why.
Marc:He only appreciates clean girls.
Guest:He sensed the lack of hymen and was like, I'm out of here.
Guest:This is bullshit.
Marc:But does that, well, okay, so you don't need any qualifications just to talk about sex.
Marc:So you don't present yourself as, I'm a sex person.
Marc:I'm a sex-positive therapy person.
Guest:No, I don't present myself as an expert.
Marc:I think that's the most important thing.
Guest:I'm just somebody who's curious about it and who asks a lot of questions and who has opinions.
Guest:But I think...
Guest:that's the most authentic thing.
Guest:I mean, you know, you also have a radio background too, and when it just sounds like two people having a conversation, that's the best, even when it's just one-sided and it's just the host talking and you feel like you're on the other end.
Marc:But I mean, aren't there some questions that, you know, you're not, I mean, it's, I would imagine...
Marc:Like if I were to host a sex show and I don't know why I'm talking about this because I just did one and I ended up, you know, divulging more information that I really needed to.
Guest:Which one did you do?
Marc:I did a sex nerd Sandra show.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Marc:But there's a there's a if you're going to be that person and you're fielding questions at some point isn't you're going to have to answer a question with like, you know, I don't know why people put those kind of things in there.
Marc:Or, yeah, if it's out of your experience, all you can go is like, well, that sounds interesting, I guess.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, sometimes I mean, I have a thing.
Guest:I have a thing about anal sex, which is that I don't like it.
Guest:And I take a stand against it.
Marc:You take a stand against it.
Guest:Even for homosexuals, I don't believe they should be permitted to engage in it.
Guest:I think it should just be illegal across the board.
Guest:I think it's messy, and I think it's awkward, and I think it's a dumb sex act.
Marc:I disapprove.
Marc:And that's your position publicly?
Guest:That's my public position.
Guest:Privately, it was not always my position, but I came to it through hard-earned...
Marc:You were like, I got to research this.
Marc:Ow, no.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, I will do this 12 times.
Guest:I will not make it a baker's dozen in 13, but I will do it 12 times.
Guest:And I will try anything 12 times.
Guest:And I just said to myself, no, I don't think so.
Marc:No more.
Marc:I'm not going to fall for that a 13th time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You can fool me 12 times.
Guest:Shame on you.
Guest:But so we joke around about that and we talk about that on the show and we get some we get some really we get some angry feedback from people who think I'm being homophobic.
Guest:And we also get some feedback from people who just really want me to understand that it's actually really awesome.
Guest:I just need to chill out.
Marc:Yeah, relax a little bit.
Marc:Are you using the right lube?
Marc:I mean, did you, that kind of feedback?
Guest:Yeah, well, a lot of it's, well, are you using the right lube?
Guest:Are you just, and a lot of it is very.
Marc:Don't fight it.
Guest:Yeah, don't just get into it.
Guest:And what is it about you, Sarah, that's blocking receiving this gift, this messy, disgusting gift?
Marc:Well, look, first I should say that in the garage is Sarah Benincasa.
Marc:Is that how you pronounce it?
Guest:Yes, Sarah Benincasa.
Marc:Benincasa.
Guest:Benincasa.
Guest:Benincasa.
Marc:She wrote a book called The Gore Fabulous, and she's been around doing video things.
Marc:What's the getting wet?
Guest:Yeah, I interview comedians in bathtubs.
Marc:I have not done that.
Marc:I've never met Sarah.
Guest:This is our first meeting.
Marc:Yes, but as I established, there was a brief period a few years ago where I was mildly obsessed based on photographs.
Guest:That makes me feel so happy.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I don't know.
Guest:It just kind of makes me happy.
Guest:You should have asked me out.
Marc:No, but you were in a relationship with some other Italian-sounding motherfucker.
Guest:Yeah, we were together for two and a half years.
Marc:Yeah, so my timing was off.
Marc:Now I'm in a relationship, so it's fucking... And I'm single now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:No, thank you.
Marc:Thanks, fate.
Marc:Thanks, fate.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:But getting back to anal sex, because I don't talk about this stuff much on my show with someone who talks about it publicly, I believe that for men, I can understand it more than I could for women.
Guest:I can because they have the prostate, which is what they call the P spot, which is like the G spot for girls.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get it because there's always that, and I talk about this on stage, there's always that awkward moment at the doctor's office where you have that second where you're like, oh, I get it, but I don't want to change my lifestyle.
Guest:try to sell this to my girlfriend but i love jesus too much i can't get into this yeah i guess for guys i need to relax my stance on it i'm okay so we're making we're making progress yeah yeah by the time i get out of here it's just gonna i'm only gonna have butt sex yes just and and probably wear shirts that say yay anal
Guest:Yay, anal, it's the best.
Guest:But I do get, we get a lot of emails, Marcus and I do, for sex and other human activities.
Guest:And a lot of times they are insulted that we have made fun of a particular sex act.
Guest:People get very personal.
Marc:Because you're not being sex positive.
Guest:Right, we're not being sex positive.
Marc:What the hell does that fucking mean?
Guest:That just means anything you want to do, Mark.
Marc:As long as it's safe and everybody's on board.
Guest:It's cool, as long as there's no, you know.
Marc:And it's within the law.
Guest:Yeah, there's no kids and there's no animals.
Guest:That's cool, man.
Marc:Right, but why can't we still say, like, that's fucking weird and, you know, it's fine for you, but I don't have to sit there and go, yay, you.
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of like, what is that?
Guest:Oh, man, it's not moral relativity.
Guest:What is that idea?
Guest:Cultural relativism?
Guest:The idea that you can say...
Guest:Well, I don't approve that your culture engages in this act, but it's your culture, so it's okay, man.
Guest:It's different.
Marc:Yeah, that's called slightly condescending tolerance.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:It happens at liberal arts colleges all around this country.
Marc:I'm not sure that all tolerance is condescending.
Marc:I'm not sure whether it is or not.
Guest:Um, I think that it is OK to have moral absolutes and I think it's OK to have what we call them physical absolutes.
Guest:For yourself.
Guest:For yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I but I think for other people, too.
Guest:I mean, of course, I'm sure you and I would both agree that certain things are like if you're a school teacher, you shouldn't be making your kids eat the okie cookie while you take pictures to bring up a local example.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Marc:Yeah, and that is so perverse and strangely creative.
Guest:It's a really creative way to fuck up a kid forever.
Guest:I used to be a high school teacher very briefly, and you just looked really surprised.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We haven't gotten into where you come from or why, but you used to be a high school teacher.
Marc:What does that mean briefly?
Guest:Very briefly.
Guest:I taught in the AmeriCorps program for a year, and then I got my degree at Columbia.
Guest:The reason I moved to New York was to get my degree at Columbia in a teacher's college.
Guest:So you were going to teach?
Guest:I was going to teach, and I student taught in a New York City middle school and a New York City high school.
Marc:And you said, there's no fucking way I'm going to do this.
Guest:I had a student or a fellow student in grad school who noticed that I was really unhappy with with teaching, but that I liked cracking jokes in class.
Guest:And she had just quit her job in the talent department at Comedy Central because she wanted to make a difference.
Guest:And I was like, I don't want to make a difference.
Guest:I want to do something else.
Marc:So why don't you just switch lives?
Guest:yeah pretty much and she said okay you know what why don't you come and meet she I think she was Joanne or Ann's assistant I forget who over at Comedy Central in the east coast town I love that story that she was at Comedy Central for a while and she was like this is nothing but cultural cancer yeah she was like I hate this I love the people I mean she loved the people she worked with but she hated what she was doing and she just wanted to do something meaningful and beautiful that Comedy Central actually made a woman realize that she needed to do something that would help
Marc:that it was so disconcerting.
Guest:And now she's a very successful New York City public middle school teacher and she's really good at it.
Marc:That is a sweet story.
Marc:It's awesome.
Marc:She saw the light.
Guest:She did, but before she was a professional, before she finally made it to, got her licensure and everything, we were students together and she said, you should try stand-up comedy.
Guest:And I said, I don't know, how do you do that?
Guest:Like on TV?
Marc:Like what do you do?
Marc:Yeah, you try it on TV.
Marc:You try it on TV.
Guest:Is that what you do?
Marc:Like how do you do that?
Marc:At this point in the world of show business, yeah, that's a viable way to get started.
Guest:It is.
Marc:Is you just sign up for something and you do your first 10 minutes on television.
Guest:And then you're just a star.
Marc:Yeah, you tour with your 12 minutes for about a year and then people realize, oh, she was just on that TV show for 12 minutes.
Marc:She doesn't have anything else.
Guest:The first people I met in comedy in New York besides this woman were her former bosses who were, I guess it was the vice president of East Coast Talent at Comedy Central.
Guest:And I thought, oh, this is just how it goes.
Guest:When you start comedy, that's the first person you meet.
Guest:I mean, all we did was have burritos and wine.
Marc:You go over to Comedy Central and they give you a career.
Guest:That's what happens.
Guest:And then I learned what bringers were.
Guest:And then my life changed.
Marc:Okay, so it was nice meeting you.
Marc:You're welcome for lunch.
Marc:Call me in three years.
Guest:Well, we just went out socially.
Guest:And it was just fun and nice.
Guest:And, you know, they're nice girls, and Joanna and her great.
Guest:And then I was like, okay, what now?
Guest:And my friend Caroline was her name, said, okay, well, now you have to go to an open mic.
Guest:And I said, well, what does that mean?
Guest:And she was like, let me show you.
Marc:And then my soul died.
Marc:Yeah, then she took you someplace, and you're like, oh, this is...
Guest:I was like, this is horrifying.
Guest:Why do you think I should do this?
Guest:This is terrible.
Guest:Those girls who work at the network are very nice, but this is shit.
Guest:Like, this is what you do.
Marc:This is horrible.
Marc:This is the most painful thing I've ever been through.
Marc:Why are these people doing this to themselves?
Guest:It was horrifying.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Actually, I I've seen you perform.
Guest:I thought that I had just seen you at Greg Johnson show, but I think I've seen you twice.
Guest:I think I saw you do a show at Rafifi back in like 2005, 2006.
Guest:Maybe it was invite them up.
Guest:Maybe it was Nick Kroll and John Mulaney show.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But she took me to Rafifi and she said, no, this is this is where cool comedy is happening.
Guest:This is where good stuff happens.
Marc:Where is that?
Guest:It's not there anymore, but it was on the Lowery Side.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I remember that place.
Marc:It had a big bar and there was sort of a big weird stage in back.
Marc:It was the Eugene Merman show, maybe, and Bobby Tisdale.
Marc:It was not a good night for me.
Marc:I remember I got angry.
Marc:I always used to get angry at those shows.
Guest:One thing I love about the show is that you let out a lot of things that people try to hide, such as
Guest:anger, resentment, jealousy, fear, and all those other things.
Guest:And that's the only way that I know how to get through life is to talk about those things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to joke about them and to let them out.
Guest:And sometimes people find it disconcerting.
Guest:Initially, when I listened to the show, I found it disconcerting.
Guest:I was like, why is he so fucking...
Guest:What is he upset about?
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:Why is he mad?
Guest:He's mad.
Marc:You had that reaction?
Guest:Well, because in my head, I was like, but he's Mark.
Guest:Look, he's Mark.
Guest:He's like, I've seen him on TV.
Guest:So even though I know, I know how hard it is.
Guest:And I know that the fact that you've been on television.
Marc:That should make everything okay.
Guest:That it doesn't make everything magic.
Marc:Once you're on TV, usually that just stops all sort of psychoanalyzing and self-awareness.
Marc:And all your problems go away.
Guest:People think that I, because I have a book out, that I'm rich now.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Cutting myself to Amazon.
Guest:It's really special.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:That's your next book.
Marc:How I Became a Cutter Because of Amazon.
Guest:That'll probably be self-published.
Guest:I don't think HarperCollins will pick that up again.
Marc:Amazon ranking slash cutting.
Guest:Yeah, I looked at it today, and I went to a real dark place.
Marc:It's not based on anything.
Guest:Yeah, and I said to myself, Sarah, there are people buying it.
Guest:My best friend went to the Barnes & Noble at the Grove the other day, and it was sold out.
Guest:And I was thrilled, probably because they ordered two copies and sold both of them.
Marc:Yeah, see, why you got to take it away from yourself like that?
Marc:I do the same thing.
Guest:I know, yeah.
Marc:The Amazon ranking is based on a daily sales.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not, it's not, it's completely relative.
Marc:Like, if you went out and bought 50 copies of your book today on Amazon, your ranking, you'd be in the top 20.
Marc:Welcome.
Guest:God, I got to do that.
Guest:It's called Agora Fabulous.
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:You know what I really like is how cleverly you plug your book.
Guest:It's very subtle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I barely felt it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where did you come from?
Guest:New Jersey.
Guest:you're a new jersey girl you're a jersey girl have you ever heard that song by tom whites uh yes and then the the bruce springsteen uh uh remake of which every jersey girl hears at her 16th birthday party or or presumably at her wedding yeah i've heard of those people really that song is played at a wedding well it's better than butterfly got no time for the carnival don't want no whores on eighth avenue because tonight i'm gonna be with you and
Guest:It's like, let's take that little brat of yours and drop her off at your mom's.
Guest:You have a bastard child or a failed earlier marriage and there's offspring and we hate her.
Guest:Let's drop her off at your mother's and then let's fuck.
Guest:And that's what we.
Guest:Jersey.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What part of New Jersey?
Guest:I'm from Flemington, New Jersey.
Marc:I don't know where that is.
Marc:Flemington.
Marc:My roots are in Jersey.
Marc:Maybe that's another.
Guest:I thought so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was born in Jersey City.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:And my grandmother lived in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey, where my mother grew up.
Marc:Do you know where that is?
Guest:I once loved a boy in Pompton Lakes.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I loved him.
Guest:And we went out, and his mom did not approve of me because, as it turns out, I'm not Jewish.
Right.
Marc:Holy fuck.
Marc:When did you figure that out?
Guest:About the time that I got confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church.
Guest:But yeah, his mom really didn't approve.
Guest:And gosh, they had, I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent.
Guest:But I remember they had a house that was so big.
Guest:I'd never been in such a big house before.
Guest:I think it was like 8,000 square feet.
Guest:And they had an intercom system because it was so big.
Guest:And you really needed it.
Guest:And I remember his mom was very nice to me, but then he would tell me that when I would leave, she would cry and ask him why he wasn't dating a Jewish girl.
Marc:I could answer that in a second.
Marc:Let me get my list.
Guest:And I was like, I'll convert.
Guest:I was 17.
Guest:I was like, I'll convert.
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:I mean, if we... If we can honor this love.
Guest:I was like, whatever, man.
Marc:I can change my language.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:Like, whatever.
Guest:And he was like, no, no, it's different.
Guest:And I didn't really... That was the first time I came to kind of...
Guest:That was the first time ever in my life.
Marc:You came in contact with a Jew?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:That was traumatic, and I don't like to talk about it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Because it was dirty, and it was upsetting.
Guest:There was a ritual.
Marc:Really?
Guest:There were some elders in a dark room, and there was a lot of candles.
Marc:Oh, you got used for that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's hard for us to find Roman Catholics to do that.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, it's part of the secret bar mitzvah.
Guest:But that's why I get to do this show, because I had those things done to me when I was two.
Guest:You did not.
Guest:No, it was the first time I ever was with somebody.
Guest:And I don't know, being a white upper middle class girl from New Jersey, you don't run into a whole lot of, oh, you're the wrong thing.
Marc:I'm usually the right thing.
Marc:White upper middle class Jewish people.
Marc:um but i i was i was the wrong thing because i was i happened to be white upper middle class catholic italian and irish catholic instead of weird that's so common it happens all the time it was weird though yeah i mean italians and jews i mean it happens yeah i'm like come on why can't this happen but you know he worked in the mob did you try to sell that angle of it i should have the modern mafia if it wasn't for myrlansky and lucky luciana we would have nothing
Guest:Yeah, thank you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you guys do great accounting work for us.
Marc:Wait a minute.
Marc:And we appreciate that.
Guest:Yes, sure.
Guest:But no, so Pompton Lakes, you were, let's see, you were born in- Pompton Lakes.
Marc:My mother grew up in Pompton Lakes.
Guest:You're from Jersey City.
Marc:No, I'm not from there.
Marc:My dad was there.
Marc:I really lived in Wayne for a few years.
Marc:And I remember going to Willowbrook Mall with my grandma and Paramus Park Mall when that opened up because that was very exciting.
Marc:I think I had one of the first food courts.
Marc:And I remember my grandma saying,
Marc:They have food from around the world.
Marc:It's so exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sbarro.
Marc:Yeah, Sbarro and some Greek place.
Marc:I remember finding it very wonderful.
Marc:It's the first time I had Greek food.
Guest:Mall culture is so integral to New Jersey.
Marc:It's so key.
Guest:You sometimes identify.
Guest:I'm from near the Bridgewater Commons Mall, and the fanciest mall is the mall at Short Hills because they have valet, which out here is very common, but in Jersey, valet is almost unheard of.
Marc:So you grew up, what kind of, your dad was good?
Guest:My dad's good, yeah.
Guest:Not like, didn't try to fuck me or anything.
Marc:Nothing?
Guest:Nope, nothing.
Guest:And I feel kind of upset about it.
Guest:Honestly, I felt rejected for a time.
Marc:And your mom?
Guest:Also didn't try to fuck me, that bitch.
Marc:But was not jealous of you and your father's relationship?
Guest:Ah, well, it wasn't sexual against my will.
Guest:So, you know, she was fine.
Guest:No, they've actually been together since they were 17 years old.
Guest:And my they grew up in a one square mile town called Bound Brook, New Jersey.
Guest:And they just this past weekend, we were in Jersey City doing a family book party.
Guest:And they slow dance to Alicia Keys singing that New York song.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Slow dance together and they started to kiss and it was disgusting.
Marc:And then they did a mashup with Jersey Girl and everything was right.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:Yeah, no, they're very much in love.
Guest:I mean, you know, my mom was the first person in her family to go to college.
Guest:She grew up on food stamps with a single mom.
Guest:My dad grew up in a more sort of, I don't know, leave it to beaver kind of household.
Marc:What's his business?
Guest:He works in pharmaceuticals.
Marc:Right.
Guest:He actually, he works, my co-host for Sex and Other Human Activities, Marcus, and I both are crazy on our own way.
Guest:I'm depressive and agoraphobic and Marcus is bipolar.
Guest:And Marcus has actually taken a drug that my dad's company makes.
Marc:What drug is that?
Guest:It's an atypical antipsychotic called Risperdal.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So that's nice.
Marc:You get a little plug in for Risperdal.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:If you're bipolar or you're schizophrenic, ask your doctor.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But yeah, my dad works in pharmaceuticals.
Marc:As a salesman or a designer?
Guest:He is a global vice president of something important.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:At a big one.
Marc:Says that on his business card?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's what it is.
Guest:And then my mom was a school teacher and she just retired.
Marc:So that's where you get the teacher thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's just sort of what you did in my family.
Guest:You either went into business or became a teacher.
Guest:And it's going to be surprising.
Guest:I don't really have a big head for business.
Marc:I don't know if that's coming across.
Marc:How many siblings do you have?
Marc:You're Italian and Catholic.
Marc:So what do you got?
Marc:Is there nine?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, because the company my father worked for most of my life made birth control.
Marc:And your mother was not that great a Catholic.
Guest:No, she really wasn't.
Guest:She was easy, like Sunday morning.
Guest:So I just have one, my brother Steve.
Guest:He's in nursing school.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So then why did you have to go through the confirmation and everything?
Marc:They just wanted you to jump through the hoops because they didn't...
Guest:I think they thought that it was... It would stop you?
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:I actually swallowed it whole, and I was a virgin until I was 21.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I really thought the Catholic stuff was real, and I believed in the magic and the spookiness.
Marc:Was that a metaphor for something?
Marc:No, that was... You didn't?
Guest:I didn't swallow it.
Guest:No, I literally didn't.
Guest:No, I did swallow it.
Guest:No, there was that boy in Pompton.
Marc:There was?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:At 17?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was so nice.
Marc:He must have been so grateful, though.
Guest:I think he was.
Guest:I think he was like, yes, you shicks a bitch.
Marc:Take it.
Guest:And I was like, I love you.
Marc:I just don't want to do that, but I'll do anything else.
Guest:I was like, I'll do anything else.
Guest:I love you.
Guest:Yeah, I really, really absorbed it.
Guest:I was very, as a teenager, very stridently anti-war.
Guest:abortion and i wanted to go on the march to for life in washington and all this stuff and my parents were not that way they were uh they were pretty much socially pretty liberal people and i think they were a little confused but i it is true i think that kids just want something to did you believe in hell oh sure no yeah heaven hell really purgatory until when saints i
Guest:I think until, I think I sort of dropped the hell thing sometime in my mid-20s.
Guest:It took a while.
Guest:And I'm a smart girl.
Marc:Who the fuck put that in your head if your parents were relatively liberal Catholics?
Guest:It was Catholic education.
Guest:I didn't go to Catholic school, but my CCD classes and then just being at church.
Guest:I really bought into it.
Guest:uh-huh like full all the way i remember uh i wanted to go to a summer camp for girls who might be interested in taking the vow you know and becoming a nun so you're kind of like uh it was fear related yeah definitely and you were you you you sort of uh because i'm just assuming that i don't when did the agoraphobia start to kick in uh
Guest:I started getting panic attacks when I was about 10 and the agoraphobia started to kick in in when I was in high school and then really kicked in hardcore when I was in college.
Guest:And that's when it was really bad when I was 21.
Guest:That's when I was confined to my home for a panic attack when you're 10, though.
Marc:I mean, what is what does that look like?
Guest:Have you ever had a panic attack?
Marc:Sure, I might be having one now.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I'm so good at it.
Guest:Do you need Klonopin?
Marc:No, I just let them roll.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:And I don't tell my exterior that they're happening.
Guest:You just ride the waves.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I almost started to have one coming here because I was nervous.
Guest:But then we stopped at McDonald's in a historic Filipino town.
Guest:I peed and I said, Sarah, it's going to be okay.
Marc:You said you had to do a little self-talk.
Guest:I did a little self-talk.
Marc:What were you nervous about?
Guest:I was nervous about meeting you.
Marc:How'd that work out?
Guest:It's working out okay, I think.
Guest:How am I doing?
Guest:Are we doing all right?
Marc:I feel like it's going pretty good.
Guest:I feel pretty good, too.
Marc:Yeah, but wait.
Marc:So wait, panic.
Marc:Because I had panic attacks when I was younger.
Marc:But I mean, what is a panic attack when you're 10?
Marc:You didn't want to go?
Marc:Ice cream freaked you out?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I really felt it was surrounding travel.
Guest:It was surrounding usually being on a bus, a plane, a train, in a car.
Marc:How about when your parents traveled?
Marc:um yeah my dad actually has some agoraphobia but he he manages it really well now but like when my parents left town to go on a trip i was so sure they were gonna die oh god that i was paralyzed i mean that i mean i don't talk about it much but when i was in like fourth grade like uh i got physically ill because i pictured them in a plane crash and i could not it was paralyzing who were you staying with like grandparents or babysitter uh maid
Guest:A maid?
Guest:Oh.
Marc:But no, no, not a live-in maid.
Marc:It was someone they... A cleaning lady that came for once a week.
Marc:That was who my mother would lead me with.
Marc:And then that led to all kinds of learning things that I never thought I'd know.
Marc:She must have been 70.
Marc:And she was Latino.
Marc:And she took us to the Latino part of town to meet her family.
Marc:And one of them was... Her grandson was in a wheelchair.
Marc:And that was the first time I'd met somebody who was in a wheelchair.
Marc:And then one of her other grandsons was in a popular...
Marc:Well, sort of, they were an Indian rock band, and I mean American Indian rock band called Exit and X-I-T.
Marc:And I didn't tip that he was Latino, but I mean the other two guys or three guys were American Indian.
Marc:That's badass.
Marc:So, you know, it sort of opened that door, but I couldn't enjoy anything.
Marc:But I do remember like her daughter or her granddaughter, somebody was married to a Filipino guy.
Marc:And I remember going to their house and the one of the daughters played piano and played the love theme from Romeo and Juliet.
Marc:I can't remember how it goes, but it's really sort of.
Marc:Sad.
Guest:From like the film?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:From Zeffirelli's film maybe?
Marc:Yeah, where you see boobs.
Marc:The song.
Marc:And I just started bawling because all it meant to me was that my parents were floating somewhere.
Marc:That's so beautiful and sweet.
Marc:It's like a plane is on fire.
Guest:That's so beautiful.
Guest:And it's exactly the kind of thing that people misunderstand about kids.
Guest:They probably thought you were crying for a totally other reason.
Guest:Because kids, little kids who get into their heads are really hard to, it's a tough nut to crack.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the thought that I was, like, there were moments where, like, it was the whole world was so strange.
Marc:And I didn't seem to be able to adjust to it.
Marc:Like I was in this stranger's house that I was too sensitive to deal with just the weird, the other smells.
Marc:You know, you go to somebody from a different culture, especially, and you're like, what's happening?
Guest:Oh, I remember when I rolled into my girl Hafiza's house when I was little, and I was like, what is that?
Guest:And her mom said, it's goat.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:But I dealt with that fear all the fucking time.
Marc:Like I still have not fully assessed all the panic and horror and anxiety that I went through as a child.
Marc:And you seem to have done that.
Guest:I think, you know, I've been doing like therapy and lots of stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I mean, for me it was pretty basic because it wasn't trauma related.
Guest:It wasn't like I was never touched or beaten or anything like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But were you... How come no one was able to make you not so frightened?
Guest:I think they just thought that I was just skittish.
Guest:You know, like, oh, that's just... She'll grow out of it.
Guest:She'll grow out of it.
Guest:She'll grow out of it.
Guest:And I didn't grow out of it.
Guest:It just got worse and worse over time.
Marc:But you found your parents were nurturing?
Guest:They were... Yeah, they were nurturing and loving, but they just... You know...
Guest:And they now, I think both of them have done therapy and I have, and my brother's studying to be a psych nurse.
Guest:And now in our family, you know, we're just, it's sickening, like how supportive they are.
Marc:It's self-aware.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But now it's like, so they learn the language.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:but but you know still the like my mother does that too like she okay so she she's trained herself to say i'm proud of you and not as opposed to you know do i look fat you know there is a big change up and so like i'm glad that she's moved along and then she can do that but it's not going to replace the fact that she was completely self-involved throughout most of my life
Guest:Yeah, I feel like a little bit of a fraud because I'm not a fraud.
Guest:I just I wrote this book and it's about being fucked up.
Guest:But the fucked up in this, I think, is largely biological in nature.
Guest:Some of it was nurtured into me, I know.
Guest:but it's not like an abuse memoir.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it... You know, I feel like... You should have made something up because those things sell, man.
Guest:They do.
Marc:People love it.
Marc:Like a priest, a stepdad.
Marc:Just make up a few people.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think...
Guest:You know what?
Guest:They were 24 when they had me and that's not that's not particularly young.
Guest:But now that I've been 24, like two years ago, I realize how how immature you are at that age.
Guest:And so I really they really grew up along with me in many ways.
Marc:I had that, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, my my mom was 22.
Guest:Where did you grow up?
Marc:Albuquerque.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I used to live in Las Cruces.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Were you in love with a guy from Albuquerque?
Guest:No, but I did.
Marc:What, did you go to school at New Mexico State?
Guest:I did take a class at NMSU.
Marc:What the fuck were you doing in Las Cruces?
Guest:AmeriCorps.
Guest:I was doing the AmeriCorps program.
Marc:No one lives in Las Cruces.
Guest:No.
Guest:As it turns out, nobody does.
Marc:Southern New Mexico is a little bit bleak.
Guest:It's real weird.
Guest:It's a real weird place.
Guest:Like Albuquerque and Santa Fe are relatively cosmopolitan.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:There was this one dude who I went on a date with, by which I mean we had relations.
Marc:So you fucked a guy on a one-nighter?
Guest:No, I think we had sex a few times.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:He was really nice.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I want you to know that he was really nice, Mark.
Marc:It's very important first.
Marc:You're setting up the weird part.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'm talking.
Marc:Nice guy.
Guest:I'm talking to the dude.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Post-coitus.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:He's wearing a necklace that has a purple crystal on it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That he kept on during sex.
Guest:And I said, because I was kind of a hippie at the time, I said, wow, that's really beautiful.
Guest:What does that symbolize?
Guest:And he said, this is from when the aliens took me.
Guest:And I thought he was fucking with me, so I started laughing.
Guest:And he was really serious.
Guest:And I said, well, what do you mean?
Guest:And he said, I was kidnapped by aliens when I was a baby.
Guest:And when they brought me back, my mother found me, and she was changing my diaper, and this crystal was in it.
Guest:And I said, so you...
Guest:So you shit a crystal out.
Guest:And then I remembered that his mother had a business as a massage therapist and crystal healer.
Guest:And I said to him, don't you think maybe you just ate the crystal?
Guest:And I swear, Mark, like I've never seen such a look of disillusionment on someone's face.
Guest:It's like it had never occurred to him before that maybe this is really what had happened.
Guest:It was like I told him Santa wasn't real.
Guest:He was so sad.
Guest:And I felt so bad.
Guest:And I think that's why I had sex with him again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I just felt so guilty.
Marc:Like right away?
Marc:No, like another.
Marc:It was like a day later.
Marc:To sort of stop him from crying?
Guest:I was like, I'm so sorry, sir.
Marc:It wasn't a flying saucer.
Marc:Bring me that dick.
Guest:Seriously, just give it to me.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:So that was your hippie period.
Marc:Now, how far did you go with that?
Guest:I never got into like smoking weed, which you would think is integral to a hippie period.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What kind of shoes are we talking?
Guest:I had to have some kind of shoes that were vegan.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I wasn't vegan, but a vegan shoe.
Guest:I went to a school called Warren.
Guest:I dropped out of Emerson College because I had a nervous breakdown and was like crazy bones.
Guest:And then after I got better, I went to a school called Warren Wilson College, which is down in North Carolina.
Guest:And it's on...
Guest:Like 1,100 acres and 300 acres is an organic farm and then 20 acres is an organic herb garden.
Guest:And everybody on campus works and work crews.
Marc:Was this one of the reasons you went there or was this just sort of like you had a nervous breakdown?
Marc:You're like, I just need to go someplace where there's food growing.
Guest:I need to go someplace pure.
Marc:I need someplace safe.
Guest:Yeah, it was kind of my version of rehab, I guess, in a sense.
Guest:It just seems so safe and nurturing and sweet, like this big womb of grain and cattle.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, live that.
Guest:Free range cattle.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I went there.
Guest:Get close to the animals.
Guest:Real close.
Marc:Yeah, get close to the roots of herbs.
Yeah.
Guest:Do you feel better when you're around nature?
Guest:Do you find it soothing or do you find it noxious and weird?
Marc:No, I can't bullshit myself much anymore about stuff.
Marc:So I'm fine with nature.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:I don't camp.
Marc:I had a very disturbing moment right down here on my property, which is not huge, but right down there on the hill last night.
Guest:You've got some wildness happening.
Guest:What happened?
Marc:Well, this house is very old and there's a ceramic sewage pipe that runs from the house down the hill to the sewer system.
Marc:And sometimes it gets backed up.
Marc:And I know that if I go onto my deck here and I smell sewage, I go, fuck, I'm going to have to call the rooter guy.
Marc:So this happened to me last night, around 10 at night, 10.30 at night.
Marc:I'm like, is that sewage?
Marc:And sometimes it's not.
Marc:Sometimes it's just me.
Marc:So I took a flashlight and I walked down to where there's no patio.
Marc:There's just...
Marc:the hill to check the um whatever the the clean out the poop well there's no poop but there's a there there's clean outs that go into the pipe to brooder if you have to and i just wanted to see if it was okay and i'm just walking and there were two huge fucking possums like right there and it was one of those moments and those things are so fucking scary and at night in a flashlight when you freak them out and they just they're mean
Marc:Yeah, well, they're afraid, but they don't move.
Marc:They didn't go into the dead thing.
Marc:Because I think that for a skunk to shoot at smell and for a possum to play dead, it takes a lot of energy.
Marc:They really got to be fucking freaked out.
Marc:So these two just froze with fucking snarls on their faces.
Marc:And I screamed a little.
Guest:You did?
Marc:I went, ah, like that.
Marc:And I'm always excited when I can familiarize myself with what comes out of me spontaneously in moments of terror.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh!
Marc:And I did stop myself from running back up the hill like a little fucking girl.
Marc:I'm not judging girls.
Marc:Maybe some girls would be thrilled.
Guest:Some girls would have been like, friends!
Guest:And they would have hugged it and got rabies and died.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I said, all right, you guys are probably not going to do anything.
Marc:I don't know what you're up to.
Marc:I don't know why you're not running now, but I've come down here for a purpose.
Marc:And...
Guest:I thought you were going to say, and I don't know if you get coyotes up here, but do you guys have coyotes up here?
Marc:Sometimes, but that's why Boomer stays out back.
Marc:You usually see them around if there's a coyote.
Marc:If they're down here, they're starved out somehow, and they usually look pretty ratty and kind of weird, and they're not that afraid of you either.
Marc:I chased one out of the neighborhood with my car.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Los Angeles is so I find Los Angeles weird, not for like cultural reasons.
Guest:A lot of people who are, you know, East Coast types will go, oh, L.A.
Guest:is X, Y, Z. And it's boring.
Guest:And you've heard it all a million times.
Guest:But I find it I find it weird because you guys live way closer to nature than New Yorkers do.
Guest:I mean, you can there's foliage and it always looks like the plants are about to win.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:No, out here, especially, I mean, it's full of animals.
Marc:I mean, there's skunks and possums and raccoons.
Marc:They're all over the place.
Marc:And there's just a lot of weirdness.
Marc:Squirrels.
Guest:Yeah, they will come and attack you.
Marc:But possums are so disturbing.
Marc:And the coyotes.
Marc:Yeah, I'm fortunate that there's not a lot up here because they eat cats.
Marc:All right, wait.
Marc:So you're at Emerson.
Marc:You have a nervous breakdown.
Marc:That seems par for the course.
Marc:And you should have just stayed there, it seems.
Guest:Yeah, Emerson, a lot of comedians.
Marc:How old are you now, if you don't mind me asking?
Guest:31.
Marc:You okay with it?
Um...
Guest:I didn't.
Marc:All right, so you had a nervous breakdown at what?
Marc:At 21.
Marc:At 21.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was it glorious?
Guest:I... It was fucked up, man.
Marc:But wait, okay.
Marc:See, this agoraphobia thing, I'm having a hard time framing it because you're out in the world, you're charismatic, you're needy, you're sexy.
Marc:Vulnerable, endearing, charming.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So was this agoraphobia like a secret?
Marc:Because you obviously were out in the world doing shit.
Guest:It was something that grew over over years.
Guest:So at first and agoraphobes can be very sneaky in the same way that like drunks and drug users can be super sneaky about their usage.
Marc:They hide the fact that they're hiding.
Guest:Yeah, because you can do things like, say, if I'm terrified of going to work one day, I could just say like I worked at a hair salon in Boston when I was at Emerson.
Guest:I could just say.
Guest:oh, you know, pipe burst in my apartment or, oh, this happened or, oh, I'm sick.
Guest:And none of those things were true.
Guest:And I wasn't doing it just for kicks to get to lie for fun.
Guest:It was because I was actually afraid of leaving the house.
Guest:But I couldn't articulate that to anyone because it was so shameful and so disgusting and reprehensible.
Guest:And also because, you know, maybe it happened on a Tuesday and then on a Wednesday I was OK.
Guest:So it didn't become a steady, chronic, I guess, thing that
Guest:for a while.
Guest:It really, the way it happened over a number of years felt as if I were literally painting myself into a corner.
Guest:You know, at first I could do buses, planes, trains.
Guest:I didn't like them, but I could do them.
Guest:Then buses were out.
Guest:Then trains were out, but I could still do cars and planes.
Guest:Then planes were out.
Guest:Then cars were out.
Guest:You know, at first I was cool going anywhere in the city of Boston.
Guest:And then over time, during my time at Emerson, it was just one neighborhood.
Guest:And then it was just one block.
Guest:And then it was just my street.
Marc:Well, what was, but explain to me the fear of what?
Marc:It was just a basic panic or you were like, if I go on that or to that place, this will happen.
Guest:There was no specificity to the fear.
Guest:It was just, um, I think it was attached to the fact that I had panic attacks in these different places.
Guest:And during those panic attacks, I just felt this pure irrational fear, um,
Guest:Just terror with no basis in reality.
Guest:You couldn't breathe or you start screaming.
Guest:In reality, I see now that it was any time I feared that I was going to lose control.
Guest:I feared that I didn't have control in a situation.
Guest:A panic attack was a way to take me out of it.
Guest:But I didn't understand that at the time.
Guest:So I would have them and I would just I would associate them with the place like, oh, I had this panic attack at a movie theater.
Guest:I can't go to this movie theater anymore.
Guest:Oh, maybe I shouldn't go to any movie theaters.
Guest:I can't go to this grocery store, but I can go to this one.
Guest:I can't go.
Guest:You know.
Marc:So you're saying that the panic attack was some sort of adaptive process that would keep you isolated in order you wouldn't be afraid?
Marc:Because during a panic attack, you certainly don't have control.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The panic attack would say, I could say, if I had a panic attack in a place, I could say, oh, I felt sick when I went there.
Guest:So I can't go there anymore.
Guest:There's something wrong with that place.
Guest:It was very illogical.
Marc:Oh, I see.
Marc:So that's OK.
Marc:So once the panic attack happened, then you had control.
Guest:That place is like, oh, that place is out.
Guest:I can't go there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I hid it from people, from my family.
Guest:I hid it from my friends.
Guest:They knew I had panic attacks sometimes.
Guest:But along the way, when I was 16, I described some of these symptoms.
Guest:And so I went on a drug that didn't work for me.
Guest:But I didn't know enough about health care.
Marc:But what about with dudes and stuff?
Marc:What about with boyfriends or sex and stuff?
Guest:You mean was the concept of sex scary?
No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you kind of can lose control.
Guest:Yeah, I guess it was.
Guest:I mean, I was.
Marc:And you were a virgin until you were 21?
Guest:Until I was 21.
Marc:Probably.
Guest:And probably that played into it along with all the Catholic shit.
Marc:Which is also a control freak thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's a lot of control issues happening right here on this side of the desk.
Guest:Can you feel them?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Okay.
Guest:um well i uh i was on this drug and it wasn't working for me but i didn't know that there were other drugs you could take like other you know psychiatric drugs i thought i'm taking this yellow pill and it's not working i can't tell anybody because if the drug doesn't work that means i'm crazy and they'll lock me away no it was uh what was it it was paxil that's what i was taking and it just wasn't working for me i didn't know that there were all these other drugs you could take
Marc:But did it get to a point where you literally couldn't leave your room?
Guest:Yeah, it did.
Marc:It got to a place- At Emerson?
Marc:Is that when you had the breakdown?
Guest:Yeah, I was living on Newbury Street, which is like Boston's Rodeo Drive.
Marc:I know it well.
Marc:I spent seven or eight years in Boston.
Marc:What salon were you working at?
Guest:I was- Oh, I can't say what salon, because it's in the book and I talk shit about it.
Guest:But I made up a name of the salon.
Marc:Was it on Newbury Street?
No.
Guest:It was on Newberry Street.
Guest:And oh, that was an experience.
Guest:But it got so bad that I eventually stopped leaving my apartment.
Guest:And then I was living in a studio.
Guest:I stopped leaving the part of the studio where my bed was.
Guest:So I even became afraid to go to the bathroom.
Guest:So like if I needed to take a shit, I would still go to the bathroom.
Guest:But if I had to pee, I would pee in a bowl or like a mason jar or something and then wash it out in the sink.
Guest:And
Marc:What sink?
Guest:There was a sink in the studio.
Guest:It had a little kitchenette right there.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So it was pretty much the size of this room that we're in right now.
Marc:The bathroom.
Marc:You couldn't go to the bathroom.
Guest:I was afraid of spending an extended period of time in the bathroom.
Guest:I mean, real illogical.
Guest:I got to a real illogical place.
Guest:That's what I mean.
Guest:It was like I painted myself literally into a corner.
Guest:I felt safe finally just in my bed.
Guest:And that was it.
Marc:So you weren't going to school?
Guest:Wasn't going to school.
Guest:Not so good for the GPA.
Marc:You were ordering food in...
Guest:I was at first.
Guest:And then after a while, I just got so depressed.
Guest:I got so depressed that about all my fears that I just kind of stopped having an appetite.
Guest:And I saw that when I didn't eat that I slept a lot.
Guest:And when I slept, I felt OK because I would have very nice dreams.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:um so i somehow made the connection that if you don't eat then that's that's better because you you don't have energy and if you don't have energy you can't stay awake how long did you live like this the worst of it i would say lasted about a month the very worst of it the peace stuff and all that that the the real worst where i was not going to class and i was making up a lot of excuses and i was staying did they someone have to come get you
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My my best friend, Alexandra, finally just showed up at my door one day.
Guest:And I don't know why I opened the door, but I did.
Guest:And she was like, we're going we're going out to eat.
Guest:And I said, no, you know, no, we're not.
Guest:And I was disgusting.
Guest:And I don't washed and there were bowls of peace sitting around.
Guest:And I mean, it was a real drugs.
Marc:No, no booze.
Guest:No, I didn't drink actually until I was twenty three.
Marc:Because I've known guys that can't get out of bed because they're too fucked up, so they pee in jars.
Guest:You know guys like that?
Marc:Sure, I've met people.
Marc:Are you interested?
Guest:Yeah, can you introduce me?
Guest:We probably have a lot in common.
Guest:The first date would just be, we would order lemonade.
Guest:It would be exquisite.
Marc:Well, that's definitely a sort of alcoholic, drug addict, bottom-hitting, familiar tale of just being too hungover, too wasted to get out of bed and just surround yourself with pee.
Guest:I remember hearing Margaret Cho tell a story on one of her albums where she talks about how she hit bottom when she realized that she was in bed with a dude and she had to pee so bad, but she was so wasted that she actually considered just pissing the bed.
Guest:So, you know, basically my friend came and saw how bad I was.
Guest:And so she called my other friend, Catherine, and they both contacted my parents and said, you know, you really need to come get her.
Guest:There's something we don't know what's wrong with her.
Guest:There's something very wrong with your daughter.
Guest:You have to come and you have to get her.
Guest:And so I got this phone call in my house and it's both my parents on the phone, which is always a bad sign.
Guest:Like two on a different extension in the house.
Guest:Like some weird shit just happened.
Marc:Like grandma died.
Marc:But you thought you were hiding all this.
Guest:I thought I was doing a great job of hiding.
Marc:But I mean, but what was your end game?
Yeah.
Guest:I didn't have one because... Were you suicidal?
Guest:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Guest:I was starting to picture ways I could kill myself, but I noticed I was getting skinnier and skinnier, and I thought that was a good sign, not from an aesthetic point of view.
Guest:I felt like I was physically disappearing, and I really liked that feeling.
Marc:I do, too.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It's kind of a... It's a glamorous feeling.
Marc:Well, no, it feels... I don't know if I would acknowledge it as physically disappearing, but I know that part of the control thing and the eating thing and what you're talking about, that's its reward.
Guest:There's less of you in the world.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know if I ever thought about it that way, but I knew that it was... I just felt healthier and better.
Marc:But the more I realized that there's something about...
Marc:feeling negated anyways that that somehow or another in my mind these control issues come from from some sort of emotional dynamic where you know you weren't present to those you felt invisible anyways it's entirely possible
Marc:I wasn't trying to regroup it.
Marc:No.
Marc:For me, the thinner I was, the more my mother would be impressed because she's got an eating disorder.
Marc:So that is my biggest secret.
Marc:It's not so secret anymore, but that is my real issue.
Marc:That's underneath all the drugs and alcohol and everything else is fucking body image food issues.
Marc:And it's not a real guy thing to have, but I have it.
Marc:And there's something amazing about like, look, I'm halfway gone.
Marc:You know, it's like, look, I'm perfect.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I, that's the final thing you have control over is what you put into your body.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Look how, look how well controlled I am.
Guest:I'm winning.
Guest:I felt like I was fading away and I really liked that.
Guest:There was just less and less of me in the world.
Guest:That's what my thing was.
Guest:It wasn't like a body image thing.
Guest:It was, I liked starting to feel the bones poke through the skin because I thought like hip bones.
Guest:Because I thought, oh, this is good.
Guest:You know, at that point.
Marc:You didn't think it was hot?
Marc:No.
Marc:Where was your sexuality at this point?
Guest:Gone, man.
Guest:Gone.
Guest:Along with probably my period.
Guest:Like, just when you get that real skinny, just fucked up shit happens.
Guest:You start to get hairy.
Guest:And yet, at the same time, like, your hair starts breaking and falling out more.
Guest:And your body is basically eating itself.
Guest:It's eating its fat stores.
Guest:And so, I wasn't on the verge of death by any means.
Guest:But I was pretty gross.
Marc:Could you tell me this diet?
Marc:Because I'd like to make note of it if it were.
Guest:I must have something to do with the pissing in the bowls.
Guest:But my parents called me and they asked how I was doing and I lied and I said I was doing fine.
Guest:And then they asked me again and I lied and they asked me again.
Guest:And I was like, these people are fucking magical.
Guest:First of all, how did they know to call me?
Guest:Second of all, they seem to understand something's going on.
Guest:I was so out of it.
Guest:I didn't realize my friend had gone and called them.
Guest:I really thought they had psychically intuited because I was believing in magic and weird shit at that time.
Marc:I had that too, the paranoia where it's like everything's a sign.
Guest:yeah like this what does this mean what does this mean the door is a little bit open in the studio what does that mean yeah yeah that why is that sign like that why how come like you know why is that song on now that's it yeah yeah real like everything that's one thing i i always say when i talk about this stuff is like mentally ill people are are gifted because we know things that nobody else knows
Guest:Like, we know why that bird just flew past the window.
Guest:And we can tell you, but we're not gonna.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because it's our secret.
Marc:So you justified that?
Marc:That somehow or another you were like, that was my gift.
Guest:I was like, oh, okay.
Guest:And absolutely.
Marc:But that is that craving for order.
Marc:I wish.
Marc:But yeah, it upsets me on some level that you are willing to just categorize this as biological.
Yeah.
Marc:I insist on family of origin.
Guest:You're probably right that there are some family of origin issues there, that it's not just biological.
Guest:I think that's absolutely true.
Marc:I smell self-involved parents.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They, you know, they had their certainly had their own had their own issues.
Marc:Because they were young.
Marc:They didn't know what they were doing.
Marc:You know, they did it because they thought they should.
Marc:And that's what people did.
Marc:But yet they were still too young.
Marc:Like to this day, when people ask me about my parents, I do not.
Marc:My parents are incapable of nurturing.
Marc:They don't have it in them.
Marc:They never did.
Marc:So when people ask me about my relationship, I say I grew up with them.
Marc:that they were around.
Marc:I see them as these people that had their problems.
Marc:I grew up with them, but I don't rely on them.
Marc:I mean, certainly they would have stepped in like your parents and they tried to step in and I probably would have fought them for it.
Marc:But I find that when you have to somehow put your sense of self together, that that is going to lead to everything you're saying.
Guest:I will say that I didn't feel like I got to be a little kid.
Guest:When I was a little kid, I felt like I was a little grown up and I was put in that position.
Marc:You're the oldest?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was when I had this breakdown that suddenly I got to be a little kid.
Guest:My mom came and got me and she brought me a teddy bear and she strapped me.
Guest:She buckled me into the car and she brought me home.
Guest:Yeah, not to the kiddie seat.
Guest:That would be weird if they had that, having a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old.
Guest:It's just something fun we do.
Guest:It's just for us.
Guest:Don't ask questions.
Marc:They got a specially fitted kiddie seat for 18 or 19-year-olds.
Guest:I was like, thanks.
Guest:And that I was, you know, I can remember being at home with them and I was they were they would drive me to therapy and stuff.
Guest:And we would do things like they would make me a sandwich.
Guest:And that was the most exciting thing to me.
Guest:Like, I'm getting so much attention now.
Guest:I'm getting there.
Guest:Then this was at 21, like mommy and daddy are taking care of me.
Guest:I remember walking with one of them on each side of me, holding my hands, and we practiced walking down the driveway and down the street and then back until I said, okay, I can't go any farther.
Marc:And because you were too far out of the house?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was like I got to be a little kid again, but also for the first time.
Guest:So I think you're actually, I'm going to fucking talk to my fucking Marc Maron.
Guest:I'm going to talk to my therapist about this.
Yeah.
Guest:Because I think you actually just hit on something that's kind of deep.
Guest:I think that is true.
Guest:And I got to suddenly be a child and have this rapid progression.
Guest:And as I got better, it was like I progressed to being an adolescent.
Guest:So I'd be ready.
Guest:I'd be like, I'm going to take the car out.
Guest:And they'd go, are you sure?
Guest:Are you okay?
Guest:Are you sure you're not going to have a pandemic?
Guest:Whatever, mom and dad, I'm fine.
Guest:And then I progressed finally to some semblance of adulthood.
Guest:And that's when I was able to go on my way and finish college.
Marc:And go hang out with the herbs.
Guest:Hang out with the herbs and then go to New Mexico and hang out with the alien people.
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:And then go to New York City.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think it's a tremendous sign of growth that you didn't immediately buy into the abduction story.
Yeah.
Guest:like you like you know that i mean that should be a sign post of health where you're like you shit that out because your mom is whack job that was probably a moment as opposed to like where did this happen we should go back there sweet man can i take that can i hold it i want to shit crystals awesome now new mexico is a trippy trippy place yeah absolutely but i i know i called bullshit on it right away and i think probably destroyed his life in the process
Marc:sometimes you know people gotta take some hits for our personal growth you know what i mean broken hearts are par for the life you gave them a gift you showed them the truth that's what we do mark we love them and leave them and we say get the out of here well you know i can relate to the uh you know the old you know when you're smart and you've got spunk and you're the older sibling you know your parents assume that you're going to be all right that kid seems to have it figured out
Marc:I had that, and you don't.
Marc:You're sort of making up for the fact.
Marc:I don't know how you were disciplined in your life.
Marc:I had parents that were kind of wobbly on that shit, and they were very diplomatic about stuff, and in my life, when I look back on it,
Marc:I regret not having more structure.
Marc:I regret my parents not saying, you know, you can't do that.
Marc:No, you can't do that.
Marc:Or maybe you should do your homework.
Marc:They're just sort of like, he seems to be doing something in this room.
Marc:Yeah, wondering who I was.
Marc:And that continued until three years ago.
Guest:Do you plan to ever have kids?
Marc:It might happen.
Marc:I'm a younger woman.
Marc:See, that's the weird thing also.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:I think I'd like to.
Guest:I just hung out with my friend and her twin toddler.
Guest:She's a single mom with twins.
Guest:And I hung out with her for a couple days when I did a gig out in Minnesota recently.
Guest:And I was left with awe and wonder at how she does it.
Guest:And then also a strange desire to kind of do it one day.
Guest:But not now.
Guest:Someday.
Marc:But it never dawned, because I never really thought about it.
Marc:And then I do, I'm a little more now because I feel like I'm just now sort of landing in my skin somehow.
Marc:It took a long time for me to have some sense of self that I thought was genuine.
Marc:A lot of times I was always so uncomfortable that you sort of just kind of adapt and react.
Marc:the kid thing is is that if you have that moment where you're like i don't know they seem to they're you know they require a lot that that instinct that moment like i get that and i'm like well you should want to you know the the possibility that the selflessness that is required should be somewhat instinctual that you know people who want to have kids they don't ever go like it's gonna what what do i where do you put it
Guest:They'll die real quick if you don't take care of them all the time.
Marc:All this stuff is pretty fresh with me, too.
Marc:And that's why maybe I'm projecting or stepping on our conversation a little bit.
Marc:Because when you have parents that require that their needs are larger than yours.
Marc:And that puts you in a position to somehow try to accommodate them without knowing what's going on emotionally.
Marc:And then you are robbed of your sense of self.
Marc:And you scramble, you know, looking for that.
Guest:I do think I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like I was an emotional tuning fork because I never knew, you know, whether my mom or my dad was going to be in one of them was going to be in the having like a sort of minor meltdown sometimes when I was growing up.
Guest:So when I walked in the door each day, I didn't know whose turn it was going to be to be the kid sometimes.
Guest:That's how I felt.
Guest:Now, as an adult, having seen my friends with their kids, I'm like, holy shit, how did they do any of it with the personal stuff that my parents were going through with their families?
Guest:How did they raise us?
Guest:How did they do it?
Guest:I get it now.
Guest:But for a long time, I was really angry.
Guest:And I wouldn't talk about them the way that I talk about them now.
Marc:Because you were denied a childhood for this stuff.
Guest:I was...
Marc:I mean, everything we're talking about is starting to come back around to this thing.
Guest:Yeah, I guess that, oh, man, this is more productive than a lot of therapy I've been doing.
Guest:Have you thought about going and getting your licensed counselor and social worker?
Marc:No, I don't know.
Marc:I think that my ability to do it will run out when I've resolved all of my personal reasons.
Marc:That, like, if I open a therapy practice and one day I realize, like, I feel pretty good, I'm like, I'm not going to work today.
Marc:I'm done.
Marc:I fixed me.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I would do it to help me, but I don't know if I could, I don't know how helpful I could be to other people if I feel okay.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:I don't know, but you do a great job with it.
Marc:Do you like how I'm deflecting what you just, how you just... Yeah, I mean, this might not be the place for, you know, because, well, I mean, obviously there's stuff that you, you know, that's not in the script for you right now, which is,
Marc:what, what are these things that your parents had to deal with?
Marc:And maybe it's not your business to talk about it or it's not in the book.
Guest:It's not my business to talk about it, but I can say that, um, that they both in their own way were robbed of their childhoods.
Guest:And so I think what they wanted to do was to create a situation in which, um, everything was perfect.
Marc:I'll show them.
Guest:Everything's going to be perfect.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:and any without resolving their own shit that was the way they were going to fix it they were going to fix it because because they god damn it it was going to be like we can do this we like yeah it was going to be like the the i mean my mom you know grew up um without a dad around and she was god damn it was her kids were going to have a dad and they were going to have a nice house and you know the both parents were going to be educated and they were going to make enough money and all these things and um
Marc:But they never resolved the actual grief or the emotional consequences of how they were brought up.
Guest:Until I was much older.
Guest:Now we're very chill people.
Guest:Now we're cool.
Guest:We've all been to therapy and we can talk about shit.
Guest:Just the other night, we had this big family party with 66 people for the book coming out.
Guest:My dad got up and made this speech about mental health.
Guest:And it was really touching.
Guest:And I cried.
Guest:And my editor was there and she cried.
Guest:And it was just... Did he give out samples?
Guest:No, I wish he did.
Marc:That would be so sweet.
Marc:And now on the subject, I've got a big box of this wonderful new drug.
Guest:Here you go.
Guest:He talked about how there's a lot of shame surrounding it and how important it is to talk about it and be open about it.
Guest:And that's a lesson that I've watched him learn over the years as I have learned it.
Guest:It was pretty extraordinary.
Guest:I do feel like you do, like we grew up.
Guest:I grew up with them.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, it's an interesting thing that has its own dynamics.
Marc:And I'll show you this book.
Marc:Someone recommended me.
Marc:I'm not a big self-help book reader, and I have enough awareness about certain issues, but I do like to see those issues framed in a way that I can understand them differently.
Marc:It's about narcissistic families.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:Where everybody's doing their own thing.
Marc:Well, the family dynamic of being brought up by a narcissist, by a narcissistic family dynamic, which is basically that the parents, for whatever reason, are incapable of putting their kids' needs first.
Marc:You know, even if there's money and college and all that stuff, that, you know, they can manufacture a safe environment.
Marc:But emotionally, they're the ones whose needs are first.
Guest:That's so interesting.
Guest:Did you feel like it resonated with you a lot?
Marc:Oh, fuck yeah, it resonates with me.
Guest:I think that's the first time that sentence has ever been uttered in the history of the world.
Guest:Fuck yeah, it resonates with me.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:That's awesome.
Marc:So do you do stand-up still?
Marc:I do some.
Marc:Because you started in it, but you seem to do a lot of video work and sketch work, and now you wrote a book.
Marc:I don't know you as a stand-up comic.
Guest:Are you a stand-up comic?
Guest:Stand-up is something that I started with and did for a few years.
Guest:I don't do it as much now.
Guest:I travel primarily when I perform now.
Guest:I'm focusing mostly on writing.
Guest:What I do when I perform is I generally go to colleges, and they bring me in as a comedian who's going to talk about serious issues in a funny way.
Guest:So they'll bring me in to talk about like suicide prevention and they'll bring me in to talk about depression or like women's issues or different things like that.
Marc:And that's really fun.
Marc:That's your show?
Guest:It's not my show.
Marc:But I mean, what that seems like, again, like, don't you need some?
Marc:What's your degree in?
Guest:My degree is in creative writing, and then my master's degree is in teaching of English to students in the state of New York, grades 7 through 12.
Marc:You got your master's at Columbia?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Smarty pants.
Guest:It's an easy one to get into.
Guest:Teacher's college is kind of easy to get into.
Guest:It's like the back.
Marc:They're just happier there.
Marc:They're just like, thank God somebody wants me to be a fucking teacher.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I toured with this one woman show called Agora Fabulous for two years.
Guest:Which the book is based on.
Guest:And that's what the book is based on.
Guest:And doing that show just, I mean, doing it.
Guest:just intense like it really took a lot out of me and I do stand up sometimes now but I haven't really been focusing on it so the arc of the show is the breakdown and then relearning how to grow up over the course of moving towards the hippie college yeah pretty much and that became the book
Marc:And, like, if you were, you know, I mean, what would you sort of hang the solution on?
Marc:I mean, if there are people that are identifying with this right now, I don't ever do radio like this.
Marc:I realize I'm doing one of those things where it's like, you seem to offer some help.
Marc:Now, what can you tell our callers?
Marc:What can you tell our listeners?
Guest:Are you going back to a very, like, Air America old school place?
Guest:Because I go back to a Sirius XM place sometimes, and I'm like, 888, 81 Cosmo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I was never that.
Marc:I mean, I we didn't do much of this either.
Marc:But but there is something about these kind of issues that are specific.
Marc:So if somebody is agoraphobic, I mean, what would you tell them?
Guest:I would tell them to to.
Guest:Talk to, certainly to talk to a therapist, I would tell them to look up an organization like the National Alliance on Mental Illness, which some people don't like.
Guest:I understand that some people don't like NAMI because they're funded by a lot of big pharmaceutical corporations.
Guest:So a lot of people don't like NAMI, but I will say that they do have a lot of great online resources.
Guest:It's NAMI.org.
Guest:I'm not a rep for them or anything like that.
Guest:I just know that they've got a suicide hotline and things like that on there.
Marc:So if you can get to the room where your computer is.
Guest:Yeah, if you can do that.
Guest:I would also say seek out cognitive behavioral therapy is awesome.
Marc:Which is act as if therapy.
Guest:Basically, it's like reprogramming.
Marc:Fake it till you make it.
Guest:Yeah, fake it till you make it.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think I think it's really that's a real thing because, you know, when your obstacles are defining your behavior, a lot of those obstacles, it doesn't mean you're changing who you are.
Marc:It just means you're getting through the fear.
Guest:It's also talking.
Guest:I think of it as talking back therapy because there are times in my life.
Guest:Last summer, I got real depressed when I had to when I finished the book.
Guest:I got so fucking depressed that I went back home to my parents house for a sabbatical, as my manager called it.
Guest:And, you know, I just kept having this thought of like, I just want to die.
Guest:I want to die.
Guest:I want to die.
Guest:And CBT teaches you that you can talk back to that voice.
Guest:You can take the kind of you can take the sanest part of yourself and say, why?
Guest:Or no, you actually don't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Switch the words to I want to cry.
Marc:I want to cry.
Guest:I want to hold myself.
Guest:I want to gently cut myself.
Guest:No, that probably wouldn't be a helpful one.
Marc:There's some sort of like, you know, I've always thought that that, you know, any suicidal ruminations that have come out of me were really about self-pity.
Marc:And, you know, they were relieving.
Marc:There wasn't any threat of me killing myself, but I felt comforted knowing that I could because I was in such a lonely place and I was feeling so bad about myself.
Guest:You said something in your speech at Just for Laughs, which is why I emailed you like last summer, that really resonated with me, which was that you basically what you just said, that you made some crack about like how you probably never actually going to kill yourself, but you just like knowing that you have the option.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was listening to that in my parents' house where I was because I was so depressed and just feeling awful.
Marc:Recently?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's about relief.
Marc:It's the idea of... So did I give you relief in your darkness?
Guest:You absolutely did.
Guest:You absolutely... And if I needed to come here to say thank you, I'm coming here to say thank you.
Marc:And you're doing good?
Guest:I'm doing pretty well, I think so.
Marc:So are we good?
Guest:I think we're good.
Marc:Yeah, you feel, do we need to get back to anal or are we good?
Guest:No, I think we could, although that would be really full circle if we ended on anal.
Marc:Yeah, is there any way you're going to do anal again, Sarah?
Guest:Ah, well, Mark, that's an interesting question.
Guest:I think that for me to do anal again, I would have to be so deeply in love that I lost my mind in a totally new way.
Marc:Oh, well, that's optimistic.
Guest:I just threw it down.
Guest:Gentlemen who are listening, that's a challenge to all of you.
Marc:If you get my heart, you get my ass.
Guest:Yeah, pretty much.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, I think that's a fine way to end this.
Guest:I think so, too.
Marc:Thanks, Sarah.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:That was fun, wasn't it?
Marc:She was fun.
Marc:I enjoyed that.
Marc:And I'll see you at the Steve Allen Theater.
Marc:If you want to come on July 17th, I'll see you in Nashville on the 20th and 21st at Zanies, or I'll see you in Montreal.
Marc:Or maybe I'll just see you down the street.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Do you live nearby?
Marc:WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.
Marc:Get yourself some justcoffee.coop over there.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Get on that mailing list.
Marc:Check the app.
Marc:Buy the app.
Marc:Upgrade.
Marc:What else?
Marc:Buy some merch.
Marc:Check my calendar.
Marc:See who's been on the show, on the episode guide.
Marc:Leave a comment.
Marc:Do whatever you gotta do.
Marc:Just go over there.
Marc:I like that website.
Marc:You know, I had a guy do that thing.
Marc:It looks nice.
Marc:Man.
Marc:You know, I'm a little exhausted.
Marc:Alright?
Marc:That's all there is to it.
Marc:And I appreciate you listening.
Marc:I need to decompress here.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:It's been a long day.
Marc:Got up early.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:Is he here?
Marc:Boomy, come here, buddy.
Marc:He's here?
Marc:Come here, Boomy.
Marc:Come here, buddy.
Marc:I swear to God, he meowed right before I turned the mic on.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:As I said, this is an ongoing performance piece called Hey Boomy.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:Boomy.
Marc:Boomy.