Episode 284 - Craig Finn / Tony Clifton
Guest:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:How?
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
What the fuck?
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what-the-fuckers?
Marc:What-the-fuck buddies?
Marc:What-the-fuckingistas?
Marc:What-the-fuckstables?
Marc:That's enough.
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Thank you for tuning in.
Marc:Always a pleasure to have you here.
Marc:If you're listening... Fuck, can you smell that?
Marc:Of course you can't.
Marc:That's a ridiculous question.
Marc:Interesting show today.
Marc:Great show today.
Marc:We've got the yin and yang here today.
Marc:We've got Tony Clifton.
Marc:I caught up with Tony Clifton at the Comedy Store preparing to...
Marc:He's rehearsing for some big shows he's got coming up.
Marc:And Craig Finn from The Hold Steady, great band, great guy.
Marc:This couldn't be more yin and yang.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I can't, you know, there are some things you just can't get the stink off of ever.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Ever.
Marc:Now, that's a literal thing, and that is a metaphoric thing.
Marc:It's a soul thing.
Marc:It's a broad, broad piece of poetry.
Marc:But it all starts with Boomer.
Marc:Boomer, I guess I left the door open out here.
Marc:And I don't know, I've talked to you about this before.
Marc:There's a reason Boomer doesn't come into my house, and that's because he pees on things.
Marc:He sprays things.
Marc:He's a neutered cat, but they couldn't take away that need, that deeply wired need to pee on my stuff.
Marc:And there are just some things you can't get the stink off of ever.
Marc:He came in here and I walked.
Marc:I didn't see him do it.
Marc:You never see him do it.
Marc:But I walked out here to do some stuff to go through my books and I smell that smell.
Marc:It's an undeniable smell.
Marc:As a cat owner, you know that smell.
Marc:As a cat hater, you know that smell.
Marc:As someone who's not either way on cats and you walk into a house, you know that smell.
Marc:It is the smell of cat spray.
Marc:I've smelled it before many times, and it was in my garage, and I had managed to rise above.
Marc:That happens occasionally.
Marc:So I had to track it down.
Marc:It was fresh.
Marc:I found the pee.
Marc:He peed on a plastic crate, so I lucked out, but it still had that stink.
Marc:And if that stinks on something solid, something absorbent, like let's go through the list of shit that he's ruined.
Marc:Like three pieces of luggage, four pairs of shoes, a few baking utensils.
Marc:This cat is prolific with his piss.
Marc:And he's back at it.
Marc:So now I had to snap into action.
Marc:Got some Windex.
Marc:Got wiped it down.
Marc:Found the pee.
Marc:Hosed down the plastic piece.
Marc:Got a little on the rug.
Marc:That's what I'm worried about.
Marc:So what I did is I shut the doors of the garage.
Marc:Got some Nag Champa.
Marc:Always go for the Nag Champa.
Marc:When you need to smell some shit out or get the smell out of some shit, Nag Champa that place, man.
Marc:Now look, Nag Champa's got its own stink on it.
Marc:It's a great smelling thing.
Marc:Great smelling incense.
Marc:The best incense.
Marc:The best Nag Champa is made by Satya Sai Baba's organization.
Marc:I didn't know he just passed away.
Marc:The guru with the afro.
Marc:For those of you who are old enough to remember pictures of Sai Baba.
Marc:But I guess he's dead now.
Marc:And he is making things smell better around the world for hippies and potheads.
Marc:So I Nag Champa'd this shit.
Marc:There are some things you can't get the stink off of ever.
Marc:Look, Boomer's wired to do that.
Marc:He doesn't make a choice.
Marc:The choice is within him.
Marc:He has no choice.
Marc:He's wired to pee on my shit to make it his shit.
Marc:But the stink, the stink of someplace.
Marc:Like I went over to the comedy store to see Tony Clifton.
Marc:There's a seediness to it.
Marc:There's something coming off of things that is dark.
Marc:And that's the stink.
Marc:That's the funk.
Marc:And the weird thing is I'm attracted to that funk.
Marc:I'm attracted to it, to that particular type of darkness, to that seediness.
Marc:It goes all the way back to when I was a little kid.
Marc:My parents took me to see Jackie Vernon at the Hilton Hotel in Albuquerque, New Mexico, 11 years old, sat front and center.
Marc:And I watched this comedian.
Marc:I watched this old man in a tux that was too tight.
Marc:because he was bursting out of it in his fat face and he was sweaty and he had his hair combed over and I could see all of it.
Marc:And he was talking into that mic and he was getting laughs, but I knew something else was going on.
Marc:I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I said, I don't know what's going on there, but I want to be part of that.
Marc:That guy has been able to navigate the stink.
Marc:He's been able to navigate the funk, the seediness.
Marc:He's a man that can walk through those worlds and make sense of it.
Marc:That was always the dream.
Marc:I want to be part of that.
Marc:And look, not unlike a cat, we all are wired to do certain things.
Marc:Spray, to metaphorically spray and fuck things up for people.
Marc:Fuck up people's property.
Marc:Fuck up people's lives.
Marc:Fuck ourselves up in the process.
Marc:And you can scrub that shit off in the form of an apology, a present, some flowers.
Marc:Any number of ways.
Marc:But it may never go away.
Marc:There's always going to be a hint of the stink that you left.
Marc:And you're probably not going to be able to transcend that.
Marc:Some cases maybe.
Marc:Some cases not.
Marc:Always going to be a hint of stink there.
Marc:But that's why places that are shamelessly stinky are so compelling.
Marc:So I go over to the comedy store because I got an email from Tony Clifton's assistant, Mike.
Marc:Said, come on down, see Clifton.
Marc:He wants to meet you.
Marc:I'd never met Tony Clifton.
Marc:So I drove with my equipment down to the comedy store.
Marc:And I went into that main room.
Marc:And there was one of the kings of stink.
Marc:kings of the seedy kings of the underside tony clifton on stage with his band and his dancing girls doing a number and uh he sounded good let's go now to the comedy store 4 30 in the afternoon and my conversation with tony clifton
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay, I'm at the Comedy Store.
Marc:I've got to interview Tony Clifton to see what's happening, and they're rehearsing.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Marc:I'm a little nervous, but let's sneak in here.
Guest:Okay, ready?
Guest:Ladies and gentlemen, I have the fortune to be up there with the show from the fucking house down.
Guest:Hey, come on, man.
Guest:I'm fucking talking to the audience.
Guest:All fucking day like this, man.
Guest:Sir is right.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I caught my famous ugly headache.
Guest:I'll be
Guest:I'd roll myself up in a big mall and die my mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How are you, Mr. Clifton?
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:How are you, man?
Guest:Thanks for doing this for us.
Marc:Yeah, I don't think we've met before.
Marc:No.
Marc:Nice to see you.
Guest:I know, but I hear you on the radio all the time, man.
Guest:That's very nice.
Guest:You really took off.
Guest:Yeah, you want to... That's fucking amazing.
Guest:You want to do it here?
Guest:Maybe someplace that's more quiet.
Guest:What do you want, go backstage?
Guest:Yeah, let's go backstage.
Guest:Check these babes out.
Guest:Hey, hey, girls.
Guest:Hi, how are you?
Guest:Mark.
Guest:Hi.
Guest:Nice to meet you.
Marc:Nice.
Guest:Great job.
Guest:Awesome.
Marc:Awesome.
Marc:Very nice to meet you.
Marc:Good show.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:We'll go back here.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Try that one.
Marc:Is that doing it?
Guest:That's good.
Guest:No, it's good to me.
Guest:Okay, testing, testing.
Guest:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:Tony Clifton here.
Marc:Okay, I'll let you do it.
Marc:All right, so Zamuda told me that we're going to... He's a fucking Buddha.
Guest:What'd he tell you?
Marc:He told me that we could do this.
Guest:Yeah, they sent off to the Comic League to help to move tickets.
Guest:Well, now, look, just to put you in... Are you going to air this before that, before we have the show at least, or there's no sense in me doing this?
Guest:Are you going to put this on?
Guest:Yeah, well, that was the plan.
Guest:What date?
Guest:When is this show?
Guest:Well, the show is going to start the 31st of this month.
Guest:So May 31st.
Guest:May 31st is this Thursday night and then Friday.
Guest:We're going to be here every fucking Thursday and Friday.
Guest:For how long?
Guest:We're going to be here every Thursday and Friday forever.
Guest:For as long as people keep coming.
Guest:People are going to come and they're going to keep coming because you saw.
Guest:Hey, what did you just see on stage?
Marc:To be honest with you, your voice sounded great.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:It sounded great.
Marc:I don't know what the hell the.
Marc:Because I wasn't drinking today.
Marc:Well, people are worried about whether or not you're going to pull it off or what.
Guest:Well, I will pull it off.
Guest:I mean, as you know, I got the pacemaker now and everything.
Marc:I know, but there's been a lot of bullshit.
Marc:Yeah, like such as what?
Marc:What?
Marc:Well, people are like, is fucking Clifton going to snap?
Marc:Is he going to make a fool out of himself?
Guest:Is he going to cause trouble?
Guest:Well, listen, the thing is this.
Guest:If I drink properly, I do drink during the show.
Guest:The whole idea, if I don't start...
Guest:You know, I'm with ICM.
Guest:They tell me, Tony, don't go start.
Guest:If you're going to drink, I am going to fucking drink.
Guest:I'm like Frank Sinatra.
Guest:You know what Frank said?
Guest:Did you know Frank?
Guest:I knew Frank, but Frank said he felt sorry for people who didn't drink because when they woke up in the morning, that's as good they're going to fill all fucking day.
Guest:Can I swear on this fucking thing?
Guest:Do whatever you want.
Guest:I can.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I got to be honest with you because there's a lot of controversy about this, and I want to make this clear.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I am all right.
Guest:Hey, girls.
Guest:Come on, man.
Guest:I'm being fucking interviewed.
Guest:Close the fucking door here.
Guest:What's it sitting here?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, no, you're not in here.
Guest:Go close the door.
Guest:You don't have to be in here.
Guest:Look at that.
Guest:Look at these bodies.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Describe these girls to your listeners.
Marc:It's hard to describe, but I think perfection, like in every way, all of them is the only way to describe this.
Marc:I can't even fucking take it.
Guest:These are the Cliftonettes, man.
Marc:Yeah, they look good up there.
Marc:How the hell they put up with your shit every day, I'll never understand.
Guest:Because I pay him good, right?
Guest:I pay him good.
Guest:Don't I treat you?
Guest:Hey, hey, hey.
Guest:Okay, get the fuck out of your lap.
Guest:Get out the door.
Guest:Seriously, get out the door.
Guest:Get out because we're going to talk here.
Guest:It's a pleasure.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She's gorgeous.
Guest:That's my dance camp.
Marc:Let's just do a little back story because I want to put you into context.
Marc:Many people know that you had a relationship with Andy Kaufman.
Marc:Kaufman, the Jew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I don't... You're not him, though.
Guest:No, fuck.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Here's what happened.
Guest:Here's where the controversy started.
Guest:Kaufman, in 1969, before he was Andy Kaufman famous, he hitchhiked from great... You're a Jew kid.
Guest:You're a Jew boy.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Hey, do you know what's the difference between a Jew and Santa Claus?
Guest:What?
Guest:Santa Claus comes down the chimney.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I can make the joke because I had a relative who died in Auschwitz.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:He fell off the guard tower.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So anyway, enough with the cheaper Shecky Green jokes.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Were they Shecky jokes or just... I don't know.
Guest:I steal them.
Guest:I don't give a fuck.
Guest:I'm a singer.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just throw them in the ass.
Guest:So Kaufman... So he came 1969.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He came over to Las Vegas to see Elvis.
Guest:Right.
Guest:i heard this story yeah yeah yeah and then he saw me right he stayed there that night he saw me yeah he came and saw me and then he started doing an impression of me this is what happened okay and then by the time i got my jew lawyer on top against his jew lawyer right they decided hey we can't get away with this so then i started performing for him so i would go on fucking dv letterman yeah uh merv griffin bay remember mike douglas show all that stuff yeah then i'd go do it
Guest:yeah and it was me and coffin laughing his ass off right people think was him so we became friends and then of course after his death right here at the comedy store one year later so he's dead oh he's dead as a fucking door right damn right sometimes you know sometimes i'll be on stage and somebody yell out uh kaufman kaufman you andy kaufman you know what i say what i say you want to see kaufman get yourself a shovel and a flashlight
Guest:What did I fucking tell him to do?
Guest:I'll throw him out.
Guest:I'll fucking push the face in your suit.
Marc:All right, so what about Zamuda?
Guest:No, he's that fucking guy.
Guest:He did an impression on you.
Guest:Terrible, terrible fucking impression on me.
Guest:Let me tell you that.
Guest:Then you had Jim Carrey in the movie.
Guest:Man on the moon, he didn't impress me, and also the other guy, Paul Giamatti.
Guest:He did one.
Guest:So a lot of people don't impress, but I'm the original, I'm the guy, if you look back, if you look back on Merv, on Letterman, on Miss Biggie, you will see me.
Marc:And Zamuda had nothing to do with it.
Guest:No, every once in a while, he would fuck.
Guest:Why are you so fucking mad at Zamuda?
Guest:Because he's a fucking stupid piece of Polish shit.
Guest:All right, all right.
Guest:Hey, hear about the Polak?
Guest:His wife had triplets?
Guest:No.
Guest:He went out looking for the two other guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Polish parachute.
Guest:What?
Guest:Opens on impact.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:Polish firing squad.
Guest:What?
Guest:They stand on the surface.
Guest:Okay, you're hilarious.
Guest:You got tons of Polish jokes.
Marc:Hilarious for a single.
Guest:Fucking, yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I don't want to be disrespectful.
Marc:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, you know, you've got a reputation of being volatile.
Guest:All that I drink.
Guest:Only when I drink, and that's the booze.
Marc:So what time is it now?
Guest:It's 4.20.
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Guest:You all right?
Guest:Yeah, I'm okay.
Guest:I have maybe a few nymphs.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But now that rehearsal's over.
Guest:I will drink.
Guest:I got to tell you, that show looks great.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:You come.
Guest:Yeah, we get you on stage.
Marc:What am I going to do on stage?
Marc:You come do some of your acts.
Marc:And then what happens?
Marc:You're going to come out in the middle of it and start strutting around?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I'll leave you alone.
Guest:I'll just introduce you.
Guest:You do your thing.
Guest:No, I'll leave you clean on stage.
Guest:How can I trust you?
Guest:I've seen you in the green room.
Marc:I've seen, you know, people write about you.
Guest:No, but for you, but you do good promotion for me.
Guest:I'm not going to fuck with you.
Guest:Some guy that's not going to do anything for me trying to smell my ass.
Guest:Pauly Shore has been coming here.
Guest:Did you saw those dames I got?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've never seen him in this fucking club.
Guest:He's fucking sitting there back to rehearsals.
Guest:He's singing now at the end of it.
Guest:He's singing that, yeah.
Marc:Did you see that?
Marc:He's doing a song at the end.
Marc:Are you serious?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:From what, in his act?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You shouldn't be.
Guest:He can't sing.
Guest:What the fuck's he going to sing?
Guest:I don't know what he's doing.
Guest:He's singing, though.
Guest:You've got to be fooling me singing.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:What the fuck's his world coming?
Marc:So what can people expect from the Tony Clifton show?
Guest:Well, like the sign says, you go past the comedy store and it says, music.
Guest:mayhem and sexual anarchy right that's the one thing i'm pushing you know everybody's pushing something that's the one thing i could do yeah that nobody else can do because i don't give a shit so what you'll never see how it goes because i know that something's gonna get fucked up i mean what's gonna throw you off nothing i'm not no i do not start my show starting to do trouble if you think you're gonna come to a show and you're gonna see me no because that would be too what pisses you off what if i came and said you're a fraud you fuck
Guest:What, if you start yelling like that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, well, then there would be fucking trouble.
Guest:I fucking, luckily, luckily, the fucking security guys here will grab you and throw your ass out before I, or I'll go for you.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Because I don't need, I don't need, I don't like that Kaufman stuff and all that fucker.
Guest:All right, so what we've learned here.
Guest:He was riding my coattails long enough.
Marc:All right, so Kaufman's dead.
Marc:Zamuda's an asshole.
Marc:You're back.
Marc:You're better than ever.
Guest:Danny DeVito's an asshole.
Guest:Why is Danny DeVito an asshole?
Guest:That's because he treated me like a piece of shit on the movie Man on the Moon.
Guest:Did you see me in Man on the Moon?
Guest:I saw someone doing you, right?
Guest:He did an impression of me, but then at the end, the last thing, they let me actually appear on stage at the end.
Guest:That last ending of Man on the Moon, I will survive.
Guest:That's me on stage singing here.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:and devito pissed you off how he's a little midget is what he you know he's you know he's illegal just i'm not joking he's a legal midget in eight states in eight states eight states i think one it's seven now and you know it's a sad folks just a couple weeks ago he was in venice california yeah did you i'm not joking did you see that some guy uh uh some guy tried to mug him yeah yeah how low can you stoop yeah you walked into that one yeah you come out come on you
Guest:Come on, come to the show.
Guest:Door was wide open.
Guest:That's another thing.
Guest:You come to my show, you learn all kinds of stuff.
Guest:Did you know Sinatra tried to commit suicide twice over Ava Gardner?
Guest:No, I had no idea.
Guest:That doesn't make sense.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Over Ava Gardner.
Guest:Ava Gardner.
Guest:He cut his wrist once, and Nelson Riddle saved him when he was living in, this is true, over in Palm Springs at his house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he was out of his fucking mind about Ava Gardner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was a fucking whore, a slut.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was just like a guy.
Guest:Did you fuck her?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No, but I fucked Lauren Collins in 72.
Guest:Did you really?
Guest:I really did.
Guest:Nine of a hundred stars in New York City.
Guest:Nine of a thousand stars.
Guest:She was there.
Guest:I was on the bill.
Guest:She was on the bill.
Guest:In 1972?
Guest:How old was she then?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:She was pretty hot still?
Guest:Before her face fell.
Guest:Before the face fell.
Marc:How did you end up fucking Lauren Bacall?
Guest:She was drunk.
Guest:She was drunk.
Guest:And I was pacing her all night.
Guest:I kept thinking bogey and everything.
Guest:And I was drinking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was easy.
Guest:I'm telling you.
Guest:She was there.
Guest:There's all these stars.
Guest:Nobody was pacing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because she was, those days were over.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:So she wasn't getting much.
Guest:So I was.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I played into it.
Guest:Like, they tell me bogey's beautiful and whatnot.
Guest:And I fucked her.
Guest:And guess this?
Guest:This is the first time I ever fucked a chick in the asshole.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, she wanted the asshole.
Marc:Did you say, did bogey do it like this?
Guest:No, I didn't say that.
Guest:Hey, I don't want to be insulted to her.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You know, but I said...
Guest:I said to her.
Marc:Was she awake when he fucked her?
Guest:The first time, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, the second.
Guest:And the third time she was not.
Marc:Since you're in a gossipy mood, I mean, who were some of the other stars?
Marc:You know, Shelley Winters, anything?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:But Shelley, you know, Shelley fucked up Bobby De Niro.
Guest:For real.
Guest:That's how De Niro got.
Guest:As opposed to not for real?
Guest:That's how De Niro met Scorsese.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, because Shelly Winters, he was taking Shelly at an acting class, the Method acting class in New York City.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:It's absolutely true.
Guest:And then Mitzi Shore, he would fuck the Richard Pryor for a while.
Guest:Oh, I know, yeah.
Guest:So you know that?
Guest:No, this is true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All this fucking shit's true.
Marc:So you know all this stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I know all the dirt.
Guest:I knew way before the Rosie O'Donnell thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Way before.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I think that most people could assume that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, but what I don't get,
Guest:she gets these hot chicks to live with and marry her.
Guest:That one, Kelly?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That fucking girl was hot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How can you sit there and fuck Rosie O'Dowell?
Guest:Give me a fucking break, man.
Guest:Well, I mean, she's nice, right?
Guest:Nice?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I'm that stinky pussy.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:She's a large woman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, the crack of her ass, that's filthy, man.
Guest:Dad is caked up with, no, that's filthy.
Guest:Because she can't clean properly.
Marc:Tony, it's not nice to say that stuff about Rosie.
Guest:No, I'm just jealous because it takes a nice, hot girl off the market.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I don't know from Rosie, but I just can't understand that.
Guest:Do you remember Tom Arnold?
Guest:He had a fuck Roseanne.
Guest:Honest to fucking God.
Guest:Yeah, listen, what I do, I drink.
Guest:Okay, all right.
Guest:No, listen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Listen.
Guest:What?
Guest:I am...
Guest:I'm not an alcoholic.
Guest:I'm a drunk.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know what the difference is?
Guest:What?
Marc:You don't have to go to the meetings.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's pitch the shows.
Guest:I drink to forget.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And what it was, I forgot.
Guest:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So the shows are May 31st, starting Thursday, May.
Guest:You're at the Comedy Store.
Marc:31st.
Marc:The main room at the Comedy Store.
Marc:And every weekend after.
Guest:Every Thursday and Friday.
Guest:Just Thursday and Friday.
Marc:Every Thursday and Friday, starting May 31st, for as long as it takes for you to alienate fucking everybody.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Hooker's there.
Guest:We tell every kind of joke.
Guest:I'll tell Jew jokes.
Guest:I'll tell black jokes.
Guest:Because I believe in freedom of speech.
Marc:I understand that.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think when you start fucking, when you take that away, that's like, the next thing is book burning.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I understand that.
Guest:I understand that.
Guest:I think you've got to keep that going.
Guest:And everybody has a good time.
Guest:Hey, that reminds me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do you get a gay guy to make love to a woman?
Marc:How?
Guest:Put shit in her pussy.
Marc:All right, Tony Clifton, it was a pleasure to see you.
Marc:Always funny.
Guest:All right, my friend.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Marc:All right, good.
Marc:You take care of yourself.
Guest:Okay, bye-bye.
Marc:So that was an experience.
Marc:It was a pleasure to meet the man, the myth.
Marc:The spontaneous, aggravated, whoremongering fuck that he is.
Marc:He will be in the main room at the Comedy Store starting tonight, the 31st.
Marc:And he'll be doing tomorrow as well and Thursdays and Fridays throughout the month for at least a month.
Marc:But if you haven't had that experience to see Tony Clifton, I would go do that.
Marc:Now I'm thrilled to bring into the conversation my next guest, Craig Finn, who, unlike Tony Clifton, has also been in the entertainment racket for a while.
Marc:He's been around a while.
Marc:The Hold Steady is his band.
Marc:He's here talking a little bit about that, about his solo record.
Marc:He's going to play some songs or a song.
Marc:And look, I didn't know the whole study.
Marc:And a few years ago when Boys and Girls in America came out and I heard it, I was like, holy fuck, this is some earnest, real rock and roll.
Marc:These guys deliver.
Marc:These lyrics are great.
Marc:Craig's a genius on the mic.
Marc:And then I had the pleasure of seeing them at South by Southwest in a place, an outdoor tent that must had 200 people in it.
Marc:And they just fucking rocked it.
Marc:I mean, these are guys probably almost my age.
Marc:Maybe I shouldn't say that, but they're not youngsters and they're out there delivering it.
Marc:Real deep, wise rock and roll.
Marc:And it was a thrill to talk to Craig Finn.
Marc:Let's do that now.
Guest:There's things I think you've probably read, Craig.
Guest:Yeah, most likely.
Guest:Sam Lipsight's book, The Ask, I see.
Guest:That's a great book.
Guest:I read that.
Guest:That's a great one.
Guest:You're a fan of Sam?
Guest:Yeah, I know Sam.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:I like both Homeland a lot, too.
Marc:That was an amazing premise.
Marc:Love that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Love him.
Marc:But how about the old beatnik books?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I've read almost all those.
Guest:You have, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I've read pretty much at different parts of my life.
Guest:I feel like those are weird, though, because I understand them way differently now than when I read them.
Guest:Isn't that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like which ones in particular have your thoughts?
Guest:Well, yeah, even on the road.
Guest:It's like I read it when I was 16, and I sort of fake-liked it.
Guest:When it was important, and you thought you had to like it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I kind of came to the point where I was like, I'm not sure I like that.
Guest:But then I read it again in my early 30s, and I was like, this is actually really incredible.
Yeah.
Guest:kerouac had that weird rhythm thing with language and stuff that you don't really you know when you first read it compulsively in college like i'm gonna these are rules to live by yeah and you don't really get the language of it and uh in the way he wrote he uh and i i just found like as a touring musician on the road to be very interesting and then there's that sort of regionalism that doesn't exist anymore you know going to denver was like going to the end of the world right now
Marc:Had its own personality.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a unique place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now everything's just like gutted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's kind of, that's a fascinating part to me.
Guest:And also the fact that, you know, Kerouac wasn't really like Ginsburg.
Guest:He had that real traditional kind of like, you know, he's into football.
Guest:Yeah, he's like a jockey alcoholic from Lowell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I get that too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you ever get that feeling?
Marc:By the way, I'm talking to Craig Finn, the lead singer of The Hold Steady, and he's also got his first solo album out, which I had in front of me.
Marc:What's it called again?
Marc:Clear Heart, Full Eyes.
Marc:Great.
Marc:It's a great record.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I listened to it yesterday.
Marc:Awesome.
Marc:They sent me, I think, three copies of it at different times.
Guest:We want to make sure you're covered.
Marc:I have plenty of it.
Marc:Good, good.
Marc:But the weird thing about Kerouac, once I got older and started to realize, is that he, in a way, got sucked into this thing.
Marc:He had this desire to write the great American novel, and then all of a sudden he's hanging around with Burroughs and Ginsburg, who I'm sure were trying to fuck him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Marc:And he ended up this weird, bitter drunk living with his... With his mom in Florida.
Guest:That part of the story is really hard to look at.
Guest:The end of the road for Jack Kerouac did not follow through with the romantic expectations.
Guest:Yeah, no, no.
Guest:But I like the idea that he had this... When you think about...
Marc:the angry writers that you know you know yeah like they didn't have the option to be a football all-american no so I like the idea that he was a football American he says well now I'm gonna go do this yeah that makes that gives him a lot of credibility in my eyes yeah no I think there was a couple of those I mean Burroughs was sort of a renegade intellect I mean he seemed to be on the path to doing something different anyway sure what he ended up doing how much of an influence to that stuff have on your writing style well
Guest:I mean, I think that that's certainly it.
Guest:Literary stuff, there's songs and there's literature, so they're kind of different.
Guest:I certainly get a lot of ideas from books, but when you're writing a song, it still kind of goes back to Dylan and Springsteen and all these people.
Marc:Does it?
Marc:Because you write, even when you read the lyrics in the new album, they're written as paragraphs.
Marc:They're not really written as poems or stanzas.
Guest:Well, it's just sort of the way I hear them.
Guest:I try to present it that way.
Guest:And honestly, if I wanted to write a song and I couldn't, I'd start reading a book and eventually get to a part where it's like, hey, I felt that way too.
Guest:I'm going to write a song about it.
Guest:That reminds me of this one thing that happened.
Marc:Well, I saw you guys in... Where did I see?
Marc:It was weird.
Marc:It was small and I was surprised and I was excited.
Marc:It was after...
Guest:uh the big record came out where you got all the attention you got that kind of attention that i always wonder how artists uh handle that it's like these guys have been kicking around forever and now finally here they are yeah yeah well that's cool i mean i think a lot of people kind of like when we kind of broke through a lot of people sort of uh were rooting for us you know what i mean right it's like the underdog i could be that guy you know right you know you know people believe they could be one of us and so we sort of took on the hopes and dreams of some of our fans
Guest:Right, you're a fairly unassuming rock star.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I don't know if rock star is a big word, but unassuming I can get with.
Marc:I think it was at South by Southwest I saw you a couple years ago.
Guest:Is that possible?
Guest:That's possible, yeah.
Marc:Like in a real little tent?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Like a special show, like Surprise, They're Here?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:You guys definitely delivered.
Marc:It rocked out, if I can say that.
Marc:You guys definitely rock.
Marc:Given your heady and lyrical approach, you definitely know how to kick some ass.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:I think that's part of the goal of the band when we started, to make a smart rock and roll band.
Guest:It feels like a lot of the bands trade for one or the other.
Guest:It's either like grad school rock or it's just baby, baby, baby.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The grad school rock thing is a very sort of that's what I noticed.
Marc:There's a select audience to indie rock that you can kind of see who they are.
Marc:And then if too many people like you, then the people that are your core group are like, oh, fuck, they're big now.
Marc:We're leaving.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I noticed that your show, we were definitely next to some dudes that look jockey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:and looked like they were having a good time and hugging each other and just shy of really admitting who they were sexually right there at a Hold Steady show.
Guest:Those are the good shows.
Guest:I always know it's a really good show.
Guest:Sometimes I'll see guys that I know don't know each other embracing by the end of the show, and I'm like, that was a good one.
Guest:We got those guys together.
Guest:Now, you grew up where?
Guest:In Minneapolis.
Guest:So all in Minneapolis.
Guest:Yeah, I went to school in Boston.
Guest:College?
Guest:Yeah, Boston College.
Marc:You went to Boston College?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're a smart guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Smart Catholic guy.
Guest:Yeah, I was very Catholic and grew up in Minneapolis.
Marc:But I loved Boston.
Marc:I mean, what years were you there?
Marc:Was it still a rock town or was it fading by then?
Guest:89 to 93, it wasn't great, honestly.
Guest:No, it was a little over by then.
Guest:Yeah, it was pretty over.
Guest:I mean, I got out of there and moved back to Minneapolis because I wanted to start a band, and Minneapolis had more going for it than Boston at that time.
Marc:And when you got to Minneapolis, I mean, when you started, so you graduated college, and what was your degree in?
Marc:Communications.
Marc:One of those vague sort of, I don't know what I want to do.
Marc:That is the broadest major in the world.
Marc:Communications, what does that encompass?
Marc:Anything, TV, singing, movies, sign language.
Guest:Do you remember what you studied?
Guest:Did you do anything in college?
Guest:No, I didn't do much.
Guest:I watched TV and drank beer.
Guest:It seems to me in retrospect that we go to college too early.
Guest:I mean, I wasn't mature enough to really engage.
Guest:I even got okay grades, but I don't think my professors even knew who I was.
Guest:I have the same feeling.
Marc:I did okay, but I don't know that if you were to ask me to write a paper today, I don't think I could write a paper that was structured properly.
Marc:And I think that I majored in English, but I think what I did was a lot of very engaged readings of things.
Marc:Like I could never write a paper, but I could do some version of like this stanza kicked ass.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And that would be it.
Guest:I think the one thing was there was like, you know, at first I went back there a few years and I was walking across the quad and I saw these kids laying in the grass reading.
Guest:And I was like, well, I did do that.
Guest:All I did was read.
Guest:Now, I wasn't necessarily reading the books I was assigned.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I would lay there and read.
Guest:And so, hey, when are you going to get four years again to do that?
Marc:That's true.
Marc:But there's some things I wish I understood and I still don't understand now.
Marc:And I'm not sure I could understand them without guidance.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, okay, the Catholic thing.
Marc:I mean, you grew up with that pretty heavy?
Guest:It wasn't super heavy.
Guest:I mean, we went to church on Sundays, but it wasn't like overbearing.
Guest:I didn't go to Catholic high school or anything.
Guest:But it was, you know, we definitely went every Sunday and went on Holy Days.
Guest:And it was a part of, you know, who we were.
Guest:But it wasn't like...
Guest:You know, it wasn't, they never made me be an altar boy or anything like that.
Guest:Did you believe in hell?
Guest:I had a hard time with this whole afterlife thing.
Guest:I mean, the Catholic thing has kind of taken on this, you know, I have my own version of it in my head.
Guest:And it probably wouldn't be approved by the Pope.
Guest:It would be rejected, in fact.
Marc:Well, it comes up a lot in your songs.
Marc:I mean, you seem to like, you know, use the Jesus imagery and some of the devil imagery.
Marc:And I mean, I'm not like, I'm all for that.
Marc:I've got three or four books on the devil.
Marc:I'm a very big fan of the devil.
Guest:I think it's, you know, it's just sort of how I understand struggle, especially.
Guest:And, you know, sacrifice and struggle, I sort of think of.
Guest:That's the one thing about.
Guest:Temptation.
Guest:Yeah, temptation.
Guest:Sin.
Guest:Jesus gets to me in that way.
Guest:And, you know, things like redemption and forgiveness are really beautiful concepts that I can get behind.
Guest:Now, there's other stuff, you know, that you're like, wow, wow, I forgot about that.
Guest:Punishment.
Guest:Yeah, the punishment.
Marc:Repression, killing the people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All that stuff is negative, I have to admit.
Marc:All I'm doing here is I just want to make sure I have a track listing for Boys and Girls in America, because that album, I kind of got on board with I Didn't Know You Before, and it got a lot of press.
Marc:I've tried to like Thin Lizzy in my life, and I definitely appreciate them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But actually your music was a portal to me to re-appreciate Springsteen, to reassess fucking Thin Lizzy, but also just to take in the way you were writing about things.
Marc:And there was a poetry to it that really captured the feeling of being drunk and being creative and having friends who die or get fucked up too much in a very sort of visceral way.
Marc:It really kind of hit me with some things.
Marc:And I guess I'm just sitting here telling you what I think your record but I mean in terms of redemption and forgiveness and all that stuff I mean had how close of this are the songs to your experience?
Guest:I mean they aren't one-to-one, but they are they are made up of things I've seen people I've known but their composites and
Guest:you know if i wrote songs all about my own life they'd be really boring songs really boy you don't uh you're not out there living it no i mean you know not at my i'm 40 years old and uh you know not so much anymore i mean um but i think that these sort of these it's a lot about this american experience i mean most a lot of people i i always remember this um after the show this guy came up and to me and was like
Guest:Man, we did the same things in Pittsburgh that you guys were doing in Minneapolis.
Guest:And it's like driving around, drinking beers, listening to tunes.
Marc:Yeah, that's an American experience.
Guest:Yeah, so even though it's very specific, and I tend to use a lot of specific images, you're explaining something that a lot of people have felt.
Marc:Well, I mean, growing up like that, especially you get your drivers.
Marc:When I grew up, there was like 15, we got our driver's license.
Marc:So that's sort of like then you learn how to get people to buy you beer.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And then you hit the road and listen.
Marc:What were you listening to mostly when you were two?
Guest:You know, it's funny, I always think that, I was really into punk and hardcore, and I grew up in Minneapolis, so things like The Replacements and Who's Could Do were very important to me.
Guest:Did you see them?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I saw those bands.
Guest:A lot?
Guest:Quite a few times, yeah.
Guest:And that was a big deal, but I have to say, when I got my driver's license at 16, there's that feeling of freedom, especially in a place like Minneapolis where you can't get anywhere without a car.
Guest:And there wasn't alternative rock radio.
Guest:There wasn't, you know, Kurt Cobain yet.
Guest:No.
Guest:So there was classic rock.
Guest:So I always think of driving with classic rock and being at home listening to punk rock.
Marc:Yeah, I sort of still do that because I'm finding that the classic rock, a lot of it was like just rock when we were kids.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I mean, you're 40, so the classic rock, that was sort of like the Zeppelin, you know, the early 70s.
Marc:But something must have happened.
Marc:I mean, when did you graduate high school?
Marc:89.
Marc:That was kind of late, huh?
Marc:yeah well it was right on time for me i mean i was 81 so like i literally missed you were at least in high school once punk got integrated as sort of like a uh an archetype sure like when i was in in uh in high school like new wave sort of came and then there was a couple of punks but they weren't their own group right so i missed that so i guess when you were there there were plenty of dudes doing that there was an option it was a subculture you could sign up for for sure
Guest:Did you have your card?
Guest:No, my friend and I used to say we were as punk as you could get without your mom knowing about it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So you couldn't go all out and hate your parents?
Guest:I wasn't that maladjusted.
Guest:I kind of just liked the music, but I was kind of like, I was a pretty happy kid.
Guest:I couldn't get that angry.
Guest:That's why I think I was more into the bands like The Replacements and Husker Do than the...
Guest:I liked Black Flag and things like that.
Guest:You couldn't find the anger?
Guest:I couldn't find the anger.
Guest:You didn't feel gypped by everything?
Guest:I wasn't that alienated.
Guest:I was kind of just like a normal dude.
Guest:And I also liked baseball and hockey.
Guest:Yeah, so I was like, you know, it's just kind of the music that appealed to me.
Marc:Well, so I guess that's why that sometimes, you know, you feel like the community around your music, like it makes sense that those dudes were, you know, you were kind of a regular dude.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, at Boston College, you know, there's plenty of those dudes, white baseball hat guys.
Guest:But you didn't hate them.
Guest:No, no, some of them were my friends.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Yeah, some of them were my friends.
Guest:Well, that's all right.
Marc:I didn't hate them at all.
Marc:Second guess yourself.
Marc:But there was definitely... Because, I mean, Cobain was sort of like, you know, they don't understand.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I hate them for liking it.
Guest:But I guess look where he ended up, and you're 40 and fine.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I think there was like a moment, and it was like when I was in college, I...
Guest:I feel like when I saw Pavement, they made a lot of sense to me.
Guest:They kind of looked like normal dudes that could go to BC or somewhere like that who decided to have a band, and it was a really good band, but they weren't angry.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:They looked like they were kind of having fun and smirking a lot.
Marc:And I think sometimes like with all rock and with indie rock and all this stuff is a lot of those walls kind of melted.
Marc:Like there just seems to be a lot more acceptance of different types of music.
Marc:There's no sort of like, fuck you.
Marc:I mean, within that community.
Guest:No, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it used to be like, you know, like even in the 80s, I felt like punk and metal were like light years away and they're going to fight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a mythic battle between punk and metal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was always threatening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what kind of family did you grow up in?
Marc:You have a well-adjusted, grounded family?
Guest:You know, my parents are still married.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Congratulations.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's sort of, and yeah, you know, it was pretty well-adjusted, pretty down the middle.
Guest:What's your old man do?
Guest:he was uh he was in finance oh yeah uh he's retired now but um uh so and they were not a musical family you know parents had like i don't know like 25 records maybe you know six of them were christmas albums and uh so what you know no one played an instrument so but but they were very supportive but um it wasn't like you know a lot of musicians i meet now it's like oh yeah my dad was playing with this you know oh really yeah i mean i feel like a lot of people there's a lot of people i know that have grown up with around music and
Guest:I had a very supportive family, but it wasn't super musical.
Marc:Well, when you were in high school, that was sort of the peak of the Minneapolis rock scene.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was the Replacements, Husker Du.
Marc:Soul Asylum.
Guest:Soul Asylum.
Marc:God, what happened to those guys?
Marc:You ever see them around?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had friends with them.
Guest:They had that big record, and they continued to play.
Guest:They're still a great band.
Guest:And that was a big one.
Guest:I mean, Replacements and Husker Du were...
Guest:one level up from Solassime when I was growing up.
Guest:So Solassime was still the thing you could see a number of times a year.
Guest:And they were bigger than those bands.
Marc:They were a mainstream band, really.
Marc:Eventually, yeah.
Marc:Eventually.
Marc:And when you saw the replacements, I mean, how many times did you see them?
Marc:A lot?
Marc:I don't know, 10.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Was it like a good show?
Marc:There was definitely the good shows versus the bad shows?
Guest:There was the good shows versus the bad shows, but when I first went to see them, I was in ninth grade, and even their good show looked a little different than the show that I was used to seeing.
Guest:I mean, it was a little more chaotic and a little more...
Guest:Drunken and but it was exciting.
Guest:I mean I there was this moment what happened this guy played was playing tennis with this kid and I was in a summer before eighth grade definitely not punk rock and I know and he and he told me I was telling him how I like the Ramones and he's like if you like the Ramones my sister knows these guys and
Guest:and they're called The Replacements, and they have a record out.
Guest:You know, they had a record.
Guest:One record.
Guest:Yeah, well, they had a couple, but he was like, that was a big deal.
Guest:I was like, I know someone who knows someone who has a record out.
Guest:I gotta go get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went and got it.
Guest:I was hootenanny by The Replacements, and then I saw him a little later, and...
Guest:I was just amazed that they, you know, like rock and roll dudes to me up until that point were like Steven Tyler and they descended from like some rock mountain somewhere.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:They were not people I knew.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:They didn't look like people I knew.
Guest:And then Replacements, that was really exciting because there's a great rock and roll band, but they looked like dudes you knew.
Marc:Yeah, just like, you know, they looked the same on stage and off stage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Do you know Westerberg?
Guest:No, I don't know him.
Guest:I've met him, and I've met Tommy Stinson.
Guest:I don't really know any of those guys, but I've certainly met him.
Guest:They're still my favorite band and still heroes to me.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:It was sad when Bob died, right?
Guest:It was sad.
Guest:That was right after college, and I'd moved back to Minneapolis.
Guest:It was sad because you see he was part of something that was really cool.
Guest:And his sound was so specific.
Guest:And his guitar playing is incredible.
Guest:There's YouTube footage that you can see from 1981 that's some of the best stuff on YouTube, I think, from the 7th Street entry.
Marc:When you write these songs about... Because I get that feeling.
Marc:Did his death have an effect on you?
Marc:Because there seems to be, in some of your songs, there's a sort of poetic heaviness around people's inability to get hold of themselves.
Guest:Well, that's, I mean, there's the whole new record.
Guest:There's a lot of stuff about, you know, this really terrifying aspect of adulthood when you know what your problems are, but you can't fix them or help them.
Guest:You know, and you're self-aware to say, God, these are my problems, but man, I'm doing it again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's terrifying, right?
Guest:It's also human.
Guest:Very human.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's both.
Guest:It's both.
Guest:And I think that that's one of the things that I'm kind of fascinated by.
Marc:Well, some guy brought it up to me that this guy, Chris Hedges, who's a writer, when he talks about sin, what he basically says is that that's how we judge ourselves.
Marc:It's not that we're ever going to get over any of those things.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You just have to temper them enough to behave properly on some level.
Marc:I mean, I'm paraphrasing him, but the idea of sin was not to create some template to perfect the human being.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:It's sort of a way to keep score.
Marc:Well, it's sort of a way to sort of like, well, this is one of them.
Marc:Yeah, and then clearly I'm having some issues with it.
Marc:I hope I can manage it so I don't get that big or that sick or whatever.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Well, what do you wrestle with on a day-to-day basis that inspires this stuff?
Guest:At 40, when do these changes start to... I don't know, just the way you deal with your relationships.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like, you know, your whole life.
Guest:Are you married?
Guest:No, no, I'm divorced.
Guest:And I live with my girlfriend, though.
Guest:I'm just starting that.
Guest:Yeah, how's it going?
Guest:Well, you know, it's scary.
Guest:I'm a couple years in, so some of the fears have gone away.
Guest:How long were you married?
Guest:Seven years.
Marc:See, I was... And you were with her for what?
Marc:10, 12.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:Like, I was with the... I've been married twice.
Marc:You have kids?
Marc:No, no kids.
Marc:Yeah, me neither.
Marc:And, like, I married one woman, and then I left her for another woman, and then she left me, and it's just fucking devastating.
Marc:How was your divorce?
Guest:It was hard.
Guest:It was hard.
Guest:You know, it was complex, and...
Guest:Heartbreak's a bitch, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, you get better.
Guest:No, you do.
Marc:You do, but I'm hearing what you're talking about.
Marc:When your heart really gets fucking broken, whether you chose it or not, rebounding is questionable when you're in the middle of it, but when you do get through it, you're kind of humbled in a way.
Guest:It's one of these things that sort of defines you no matter what.
Guest:Now I'm at a point where I can joke about it.
Guest:In fact, we were down in Texas, and before I made this record, I met with the producer, and I was listening to country music on the radio, because I was in Texas.
Marc:General country music?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was a song called, I'm Going Through the Big D, and I Don't Mean Dallas.
Guest:And I was like, I want to make a divorce record.
Yeah.
Guest:With a little bit of humor.
Guest:You get to be able to at least smile at a little bit.
Guest:And I certainly wish everyone involved the best.
Guest:But it's painful and it sort of defines who you are as a person.
Marc:Right, because you're at that crossroads where it's like either I'm going to be bitter and spiteful.
Marc:And then you just like the fortunate thing about being older is like, do you really have energy for that shit?
Marc:I mean, to sort of like, fuck you, fuck this.
Marc:I'm never going to open my heart again.
Marc:You got to open it up again.
Marc:It just happens, you know, eventually.
Guest:Yeah, you just got to be.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You can't have you can't that that negative energy is that that helps no one, especially yourself.
Guest:Yeah, and everyone sees it and you're walking around like, oh, no, you're either sad or pissed off.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's not good.
Guest:But, you know, I mean, everyone's got sort of their things, right?
Guest:I mean, you know, whether it be like big car accident or divorce or, you know, by the time you get to 40, you've got like one or two events that kind of are your thing.
Marc:If you made it that far, you've got a couple.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Whatever they are, you live through something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, how many bands have you been in?
Guest:Well, I mean, I was in a band called Lifter Puller in Minneapolis for a number of years, and then this band Hold Steady, and then this whole thing.
Guest:I was in a couple bands when I was in high school and college, but none that played probably more than 10 shows or something.
Guest:But the first band, the Lifter Puller, how many did you guys put out records?
Guest:Yeah, like four.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And we got to be decent sized in Minneapolis, but we couldn't kind of get out of there.
Guest:We'd try to go on tour and no one would show up anywhere else.
Guest:I know that feeling.
Guest:It was exhausting.
Guest:It got kind of exhausting, but I mean, it was a great band.
Guest:It was a lot of fun.
Marc:But did you ever get to those points where, I imagine you did, where you're just sort of like, oh, fuck.
Guest:I moved to New York when I was 29, and I thought I was done with playing music.
Marc:You quit Lifter Puller?
Guest:You broke up?
Guest:Yeah, we broke up, and like a month later, I moved to New York, and I was like, I'm just gonna be a dude, you know?
Guest:Like, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna be a fan guy.
Guest:You did a job in communications.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I got a job at an internet company.
Guest:Did you?
Guest:Yeah, well, it was a music internet company.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then eventually I started playing music, and we were having these bizarre conversations.
Guest:Who were the guys that you met?
Guest:You met guys in New York?
Guest:Well, one guy was from Lifter Puller, and he'd moved out here to L.A., and then he moved to New York, so it took about two years on all.
Guest:yeah tad uh who was in the hold steady and we started talking about forming a band and what we were talking about like we just wanted to start jamming in a space but we weren't going to play shows or put out any records right and just just drink beer in brooklyn or something yeah and uh so we got the guys together we started doing that and then we decided to play a show and then we played about a thousand shows and did five records in seven years so it kind of went off of our original plan but it went it turned out pretty good
Guest:so there were what four records before boys and girls in america five records and boys and girls in america is the third of five so wow so so the two you did you got like a loyal fan base and then that one just blew up that one blew up were you surprised i mean were you likes about time i mean no i wasn't about like i was like i can't believe this um and you know what what what converged on that record they i mean do you think that it's your best record
Guest:um i'm not sure about that maybe um i'd put it up there i think that and the next one are probably tied um stay positive and boys and girls but what i think i don't know i just sort of seem like you know sometimes like i'm i'm a firm believer in like the story you know and i felt like there's a story to be told i think a lot of what had happened in music up until around then until then
Guest:There was a lot of things that were kind of really fashionable and dancey in the rock scene.
Guest:And all of a sudden there's like some non-fashionable older dudes playing this kind of like straight ahead thin Lizzie Springsteen rock.
Guest:It was kind of like you could sort of see, you were giving them the article they could write.
Guest:You're like, it's half written.
Guest:You just finish it up.
Guest:yeah yeah you had these great pot you know that the sound of it was like you know it had some pace and it was it was raw in a way but it was produced but you could hear all the instruments yeah and it felt like there were guys playing this thing yeah yeah and it was you know i think it it hit on some some things like you know the springsteen thing lizzie whatever it is the sort of bar band thing that you like springsteen a lot i do a lot yeah yeah i'm a big fan and dylan yes definitely dylan um
Guest:all that stuff is is especially dylan you know the older you get you just kind of keep going there's so much of it to get into it that's weird right you just keep going back and and it changes for you like man i didn't this record and you know from the 80s or something it might the production is a little weird but these songs are still killer like infidels infidels is the one i'm thinking of that i've just been stuck on like i know you can't get i mean and the production is kind of cool it's a weird band it's it's swine robbie and then you got mark knopfler
Marc:And it's perfect in a way.
Guest:And Mick Taylor, I think, plays on it too.
Guest:I think you're right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, yeah, it's an amazing, amazing collection of songs.
Guest:Yeah, some of them are beautiful.
Guest:I'm trying to remember what's on there.
Guest:Neighborhood Bullies.
Guest:Neighborhood Bullies on there.
Guest:Oh, Sweetheart Like You.
Marc:Sweetheart Like You is awesome.
Marc:Joker Man.
Marc:Joker Man is good.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's a Minnesota guy.
Marc:Yeah, we never hung.
Guest:No, I've never really met anyone that hangs with Dylan.
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:That would be one I would maybe avoid.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:What are you going to say?
Marc:You're going to say, hey, man, thanks.
Guest:I like your stuff.
Guest:Which stuff?
Guest:You know.
Guest:If it else.
Guest:The rest I can live without.
Yeah.
Guest:I think you really peaked.
Guest:What do you think of him touring now?
Guest:Have you seen him recently?
Guest:I haven't seen him recently, but just because I tour so heavy, I don't seek out big arena rock shows.
Guest:But if there's some way to see him in some way that wasn't hard to see him, see him, it would be amazing.
Marc:Yeah, I just, I seen him, what did I see him?
Marc:I saw him at Bumper Shoot a couple years ago and it's just very interesting because I've had this conversation with people before about, he can't need the money, right?
Marc:He just like wants to just kind of just live out there.
Marc:And it's weird because he's obviously become this strange character, and he must see himself as a character.
Marc:I mean, not just Dylan, but the hat, the mustache.
Marc:He sees himself as some sort of weird aging troubadour.
Guest:He seems to be actively managing his legacy, doesn't he?
Guest:Like writing the book and staying on the road and dressing a certain way.
Marc:Yeah, no, and it's definitely this reinvention, but it almost seems like his farewell in some weird way.
Marc:Yeah, no, I mean, I think he's...
Guest:he's going out you know he's yeah it's almost like did you read the book yeah and it's mind-blowing isn't it it's almost like no one edited that book he's like no one could touch it it was it was great but there was things like you know like there's the one part i can't remember but he was pouring paint on his head to try to act like he was crazy and i was like i don't
Marc:relieve that version of the story yeah there's a couple of versions in there i thought that the first part where you know his like his remembering of the folk scene in the 60s in new york was great yeah yeah and then all of a sudden you get into like 40 pages of this magical chord progression that he invented do you remember that like and you're sort of like really he's like no this was the moment and then i started listening to some of his records and he does do something that is uniquely his on some of his slower songs with chords well
Guest:Was it where you kind of went through the making of, was it O Mercy on there?
Guest:I can't remember which record.
Guest:I was wondering what he did with Dan and Lenoir, and it kind of ended up was like, so no, we didn't really get it.
Guest:I was like, wow, that's an exciting conclusion.
Guest:But what about the Beatles, man?
Marc:I find myself listening to the Beatles again a lot.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:I listen to Beatles some.
Guest:I didn't have them as much in my life when I was younger.
Guest:How'd you avoid that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I guess because it was punk, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I wasn't like, I never was like became one of those freaky Beatles people.
Guest:I certainly love them.
Guest:I listen to their records, but I'm not the guy.
Marc:But you have more of a pop sensibility than like a straight up punk sensibility, don't you think?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I... Finn and Lizzie's pretty pop.
Guest:I've come back to, I came back in my 20s to classic rock pretty hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, certainly the Stones.
Guest:Stones, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People are yelling at me about that.
Guest:Every guest I have on, I'm like, did you read the Keith Richards autobiography?
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:I didn't really believe mice were chewing through the wires to create all those fires.
Guest:I had a hard time with that part.
Guest:He frames things a little differently than probably really happened.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Also the part, like, when he was just like brothers with those Jamaican dudes he was playing with.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had a hard time with that part, too.
Marc:Well, there's a lot of sort of, like, self-mythologizing there.
Marc:But the one thing he sort of realized at the beginning is, like, they were on top of their fucking game.
Marc:At some point, no matter how fucked up he got towards the beginning, before he got really fucked up, you know, they were very calculating.
Marc:They knew what they were doing.
Marc:Like, he was calling John Lennon up and saying, are you going to drop yours or can we drop ours?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that stuff to me is just amazing because he always figured he was completely incapacitated for the entire run.
Guest:I like the part where he kind of came back and said, okay, I'm ready to join in on the business again.
Guest:And I'm like, we've done a pretty good run without you.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You're doing all right.
Marc:He's got chip on his shoulder about it.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:He's the model of it all.
Marc:But like Springsteen, I like Springsteen and I understand why people love Springsteen, but I don't go back to him a lot.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:And I mean, the shows with Springsteen are just so much of it.
Guest:I mean, they were really actually- You open for him?
Guest:I've never opened for him.
Guest:I sang with him at Carnegie Hall one time.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I did Rosalita, and it was pretty exciting.
Guest:It was pretty awesome.
Guest:We did a tribute.
Guest:There was a tribute for charity, and a bunch of artists did Springsteen songs, and we did Atlantic City, and then he came out somewhat unannounced, although we'd seen him in the building, so kind of knew it was coming.
Guest:But you didn't know it was going to be you?
Guest:And he said, you know, I want to bring the artists out so everyone gets on stage, and he kind of looks over, and he's like, does anyone know the words to Rosalita?
Guest:And I was like, I know the words to Rosalita, sir.
Guest:So I sang a verse, and then a couple other artists sang a verse, and then he kind of motioned me over, and I finished it up.
Guest:On the same mic?
Guest:Yeah, we were kind of on the same mic.
Guest:It was pretty exciting.
Marc:I can't imagine that.
Guest:And I got to do the whole part.
Guest:Papa says he knows it, which is kind of the best part of it.
Guest:That's the part you want.
Guest:It was really exciting.
Marc:But you were sharing a mic with Bruce, singing at the same time?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That must have been fucking mind-blowing.
Guest:Yeah, it was mind-blowing.
Guest:I remember at one point I was like, is this happening?
Guest:I said, Craig, don't think about that for another five minutes.
Guest:Just get through the song.
Guest:Yeah, just try to get through the song and see what happens from there.
Guest:And then, you know, it was funny because when the night ended, I walked out through the stage doors and...
Guest:um you know the doors open and everyone and there's 300 people there waiting for him to walk from the side from the stage doors to his car or the car they have waiting and everyone goes and then they're disappointed because it's only me but i thought about wow that's such a weird thing like that guy i was just singing with this dude and people are there's 300 people out there just want to see him walk 12 feet well he's got some weird the stature and and the the sort of place he doesn't he's not very he doesn't talk a lot
Marc:And he's got that sort of like thing where he lives on stage and he's so emblematic of himself that I think he's a real mystery to some people.
Guest:The performances are really, I mean, I find them really emotional and I think he performs like no one else, you know?
Marc:Did you draw a lot from
Guest:that because like when i saw you you kind of lean into it i mean you're definitely right up there you're pretty raw right there yeah well you're trying to take people through you know and try to get them down and then bring them all the way up you know and and so there's a sort of like a structure to our shows which i want people to to leave our shows feeling awesome elated and that's and that's what you know when spring that's one thing i definitely besides music that i took sort of from springsteen the build and
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, but, you know, cause I remember kids when I was in college, the kids that liked him, they were like, yo, I went to the Springsteen show.
Marc:It was three days long.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:He played for nine hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, my girlfriend was, uh, she's 33.
Guest:So she, she, she had like came into it differently and she was suspicious about going to see Bruce and, uh,
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Because she was like, Bruce Springsteen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She knew him from a different era or something.
Guest:But the show ended and she just turned to me and she's like, I'm sorry about that.
Guest:He's now my favorite artist.
Guest:It just went all the way from- You won that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can have this one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Because I don't know if you'd still be with her if she got done with that show and said, you know what?
Marc:I don't like him.
Marc:I like him even less.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was kind of embarrassing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What a tedious bore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:By the third day, I thought it was fading, but it turned out.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:So the guys you travel with now, I still like, you know, there's some of the heartache of the songs.
Marc:I mean, did you have to deal directly with disasters in terms of musicians, you know, kind of fading out on you or any of that?
Guest:As far as the whole study?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we all, I think, you know, the era you're talking about, Boys and Girls in America, when that happened,
Guest:I think we all kind of were like, they're going to take it away from us.
Guest:We got to like, you know, everything that, you know, we got to go out every night.
Guest:We got to party every night.
Guest:And then we all ended up being kind of like exhausted, banged out, you know, so you're older now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was like, oh, so, you know, everyone's, you know, we've, we've, we've done pretty well, but you know, everyone's had their,
Guest:Their ups and downs.
Guest:And we've had a slight lineup changes.
Guest:But for the most part, it's been pretty great.
Guest:I think despite the fact that we did have a period where we were going pretty hard.
Guest:On the road.
Guest:Yeah, waiting for it to being 33 when it hits or 35 or whatever it was.
Guest:It gives you a little more perspective than if it was 21.
Guest:I mean, it's hard to imagine.
Marc:You know that people have gone down and that the road is dangerous.
Marc:What is it specifically?
Marc:I mean, I know that it's a lot more comfortable to tour on the road now and certainly as a band that has some momentum, but what do you think it is about the road that is so wearing on people's ability to keep their shit together?
Guest:I think just being around people all the time.
Guest:I think, you know,
Guest:having some sort of comfort of just like you know locking your door and staying in for the evening sure yeah can really reset i mean like one night at home can kind of get you back right after a 30-day tour it only takes like one night at home where it's where you can just cook a hamburger yeah i feel human now you know um so i guess that's true and there's just so much downtime and there is uh
Guest:On the road.
Guest:Yeah, and the rock and roll thing, there's also a lot of booze around.
Guest:And you come off a stage, and if you play a good show, you're elated, as I said, and it's midnight, you're not going to bed at 1, you're going to bed at 4 at best.
Marc:Sure, just to come down.
Guest:And then there's a lot of booze around.
Guest:Yeah, you drink a lot?
Guest:No, I drink beer mainly.
Guest:But, you know, I mean, there is definitely a drinking culture around the Holt Steady shows.
Guest:Is there?
Guest:I can't.
Guest:Now, at this point, I have to really kind of worry about my voice and staying healthy on the road.
Guest:So I can't drink before or during the show.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It used to be I drink, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:People sending you drinks.
Guest:Yeah, throwing shots on stage.
Guest:Now it's like I can't do that or I'll lose my voice or I'll just kind of fade out.
Marc:Now when a guy does a solo project away from the rest of the crew, I mean, how does that, what's the negotiation around that in terms of, like, hey, you guys, I like you, but how many Holtzetti people are on the solo album?
Guest:None.
Guest:Really?
Guest:None.
Guest:Well, I went to Austin to make it.
Guest:It does sound different.
Guest:I got out of town to make it.
Guest:Yeah, I wanted to do something quieter.
Guest:The Holt Steady's a really, really loud band.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't really write any music for the Holt Steady.
Guest:I just write the words.
Guest:So I wanted to do something where I wasn't kind of, just for once, that wasn't kind of competing with volume, you know?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And really getting through, really connecting, because that's what I'm trying to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I wanted to do something like that.
Guest:And it was, you know, so I went down to Austin and did it down there.
Guest:So the producer put together the band.
Guest:I never met any of the people who played on the record.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I just walked in, shook their hands.
Marc:But you wrote the words and music for all the stuff.
Guest:Yeah, really basic chords, kind of.
Guest:And then the band, I sort of said, like, I'm going to play the songs.
Guest:You guys play what you're feeling.
Marc:Yeah, and you just kind of did it in a few takes?
Guest:Yeah, we did.
Guest:I met them on a Monday morning, and by Friday night we had 14 songs recorded.
Guest:So it was pretty much nothing's more than a third take.
Guest:It was real loose, you know, kind of you play quieter.
Guest:And the one thing that's different, I think, about this record than a lot of records that come out this year is I sang the vocals all live, you know, in a room.
Guest:It was us just captured playing the songs.
Marc:See, that's a great way to record.
Marc:And from my understanding, not being a music guy, a lot of people don't record like that necessarily.
Guest:Yeah, well, I think the big thing is I'd step up to the mic and the band would kind of back down because I'd be singing.
Marc:And you'd capture that?
Guest:Yeah, and I'd step away from the mic and they'd get louder.
Guest:And they were all Austin Session guys?
Guest:Well, yes.
Guest:The producer kind of put them together.
Guest:Who produced it?
Guest:A guy named Mike McCarthy who's done records by Spoon, Trail of Dead, Heartless Bastards.
Guest:And he put together the band and he put together a really fascinating band.
Guest:Were they Austin guys?
Guest:Yeah, all Austin people.
Guest:Yeah, there's a big music culture down there, man.
Guest:Yeah, it's cool.
Guest:It's been fun.
Guest:I've got to spend a lot of time down there this year.
Marc:It is cool, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's got its own thing.
Marc:I think I refer to it as some sort of hipster Alamo.
Marc:They're surrounded by the rest of Texas.
Guest:It's an oasis, yeah.
Marc:They have to defend that thing.
Marc:So, well, what's your favorite Springsteen album then?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, it goes back and forth.
Guest:But I guess Darkness is the one.
Guest:Because I'm really into this idea of like nowadays, you know, and I think of an artist who keeps going and starts writing songs about adults.
Guest:And that's what I'm trying to do.
Guest:Yeah, I'm in the same boat with comedy.
Guest:It's weird.
Marc:Yeah, adult comedy.
Marc:Well, I mean, in the sense that there's such a push to sell to younger people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that if you want to be successful in the general business, if you want to make other people money, they're like, well, you've got to sell a lot of records and you've got to sell it to these 15-year-olds.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And after a certain point, you look at yourself and you're like, if they're not going to look at me like a novelty or a freak, I mean, what am I going to do for a 15-year-old?
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, that's one thing I really like about being in the Hold Steady is when I come off stage, I mean, our fans, the majority of them I can talk to about books and things like that.
Guest:I always wonder about if I was in one of these pop punk bands and you played the Warped Tour and then you got off stage and it was like 15-year-olds, you guys are great, man.
Guest:It's like, cool, you're in eighth grade.
Guest:You're scaring me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you always get those sensitive kids that are sort of like, I get it, man.
Guest:Yeah, well, look, I like the kids who come to our shows, but it is nice to have sort of an adult dialogue with your fans.
Marc:But it also seems that there's a few bands doing that now.
Marc:There are bands that have sort of gotten older, but there's like The National.
Guest:Those guys aren't kids.
Guest:No, no, and that's a perfect example.
Guest:I think they're making adult rock music.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, there's- And not in a bad way.
Guest:I don't mean that to be disparaging.
Guest:I mean, they make-
Guest:intelligent music for rock and roll fans.
Marc:And I guess the big fear on behalf of the business, but it just seemed to be affecting you is that, you know, I think the models are changing.
Marc:Like the real, the fear is, is sort of like, well, adults have kids and they got to find a sitter.
Marc:So how are they going to get out to the shows?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, but they come, you know, they, they make time.
Guest:They'll get there.
Guest:I mean, you know, you have to make, you can't, you know, I think you maybe have to make little changes in your own thing.
Guest:Maybe not going on at midnight is a good idea if you're going to try to play for adults.
Guest:Who do you have open for you generally?
Guest:It depends, tour to tour.
Guest:It's never, you know, it's just whatever bands we want.
Guest:We try to change it up just to do something different every time.
Marc:And when you were coming up, who were some of the people you opened for?
Guest:Oh, God, we haven't opened for a lot of bands.
Guest:The only two...
Guest:Real big support tours we did were the Counting Crows over in England a few years back and also did some dates with Dave Matthews.
Guest:And those are interesting, especially you kind of learn things from – that's the biggest thing.
Guest:I don't know if – What did you learn from Dave Matthews?
Guest:Because I'm still trying to learn how to appreciate him.
Guest:Here's what I learned is that if you can get – sell tickets – if you can get people walking into your show 30 at a time, you're doing good business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's like there's two guys who really want to go and they just brought their 28 friends.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, he's got sort of that weird.
Marc:I like I could never lock into him as a personality.
Marc:Like, so I seem to need a little more personality in my front men.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, and I don't quite get that.
Marc:I mean, I know he's a great musician.
Marc:He's got a great band, but maybe I just missed it.
Guest:People have a lot of fun at those shows.
Guest:That, I guess, is the thing.
Guest:But, yeah, but opening for them, there's a lot of those people are having fun in the parking lot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's hard to know how much you can have.
Marc:Half an arena full.
Guest:Half would be good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know how you guys do that.
Marc:I really don't.
Marc:I mean, outside of knowing that you guys are together up there and you can at least have fun with each other.
Guest:Well, that's what I think about the comedy thing.
Guest:I mean, worst comes to worst, there's five of us.
Guest:Hanging out.
Guest:Yeah, we'll load out and go have a beer.
Guest:And it's like, we got your friends around, your best friends.
Guest:And you can still play a great show and appreciate it.
Marc:When you're just a comic and there's half a house, it's going to be a different experience.
Marc:Then you go back to the hotel and sort of see.
Guest:You just wait for the one person to come up and go, I really like that.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:You want to hang out?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, there's those.
Guest:And, you know, sometimes we just played a show on the solo tour in Oklahoma City that was like, eh.
Guest:But, you know, the people were so thankful and nice that by the end of the night, I was like, I'm glad we did this, you know?
Guest:But, you know, sometimes you have those nights, but sometimes the audience member can say something that just makes you feel like, this is good.
Guest:This is good.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And sometimes you're kind of hanging around waiting for them.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Standing by the door.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Hey, thanks for coming.
Marc:Wow, he sells his own merch.
Marc:I'm just, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you tour, though, I mean, since you're sort of touted as a working band and you're out there hitting it, I mean, do you find that what we were talking about before, that kind of diminishing of the uniqueness of cities and regions as being sort of heartbreaking...
Guest:yeah i mean you know it's hard it's hard to know what i'm comparing it to but it is there is a very like you know homogenous thing you see these hard to find indigenous food yeah like every time i go somewhere is there a place it's not every other place yeah you sort of see the same things the the college towns are also have that like real weird um archetype you know like you'll start to see that there's gonna be a pita pit a mellow mushroom and you know like some version of that yeah wow here we are college town you know
Marc:with their own franchises in the indie record store.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, do you want to do a song or two from the record or what?
Marc:Yeah, let's do a song or something.
Marc:All right, let me set you up.
Marc:Cool?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Someone saw something just east of here That came up on the Western Pier There's one thing you should know about Christ is watching me right now
Guest:Someone saw something and they shot it down I spent seven months in another town A night I'd walk down on the beach
Guest:Well now I saw them watching me They rolled up They put the cuffs on Then they drove me Deep into the valley They're just church
Guest:Looked me over, said I'm sorry You don't have to keep running But you best be leaving You can't take away all the parts of you
Guest:They make you do the things you do The girls that live inside my heart Keep coming up the boulevard Roll up
Guest:They pledge their lovin' Then they drive you Halfway to a breakdown The just judge Looked me over Said I'm sorry Love's been such a letdown Let's proceed with the shakedown
Guest:Jesus is a judge And he's kind And he's just Forgives us for our avarice and lust And I don't even know what's east of here I came up on the western pier
Marc:awesome that sounded that sounded great cool yeah glad you liked so that is on the new album yep and that's a solo album clear heart full eyes that's uh craig finn singing and now the the the when you titled an album stay positive
Marc:Where did that come from exactly?
Guest:Well, actually, where it came from is, for some reason I started signing, when people asked me for my autograph, I started signing, stay positive, Craig Finn.
Guest:There's a weird dark humor in that.
Guest:When do you say stay positive?
Guest:When things are going awesome?
Guest:Probably not.
Guest:It's like, come on, let's stay positive here.
Marc:Well, what do you feel?
Marc:Because I have this weird issue with people that act positive.
Marc:What, that act positive?
Marc:Well, you know, sort of like, everything's good, man.
Guest:It's all good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, that's my least favorite phrase.
Guest:But I do, I mean, I do try to find optimism and positivity.
Guest:I mean, I think that's something that I strive for, but I sort of go with what you mean.
Guest:Like, say...
Guest:It's all good, man.
Guest:It's not all good.
Marc:No.
Marc:But I think that what you're doing, even just listening to that song and talking to you for a little while, that the idea of embracing the faults and broken desires of people, but also celebrating it, that you do have acceptance anyways.
Guest:Yeah, embracing the struggle.
Guest:Saying like, man, this is going to be hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is probably gonna suck, but then you really enjoy those nice moments that you find sometimes in the middle.
Marc:Isn't that weird, right as you get older, it's like, wow, a lot of things are easier, but something just got really hard.
Guest:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, some of those things, yeah.
Guest:But some things get easier, too.
Guest:I was just talking to a friend of mine the other day about, I moved to New York 11 years ago.
Guest:And like, I used to, my first year, I used to get on the subway and end up everywhere.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And now it's like, I just don't, or it would always get stuck.
Guest:It always was like conspiring against me.
Guest:Now, that's something that's just gotten, I can get around now and I show up on time places.
Guest:And I'm not, I don't know if anything's changed.
Guest:I've just sort of, things happen easier.
Guest:But then of course there's things happening.
Guest:that with age get harder.
Marc:Sure, yeah, I think we're both in that zone where, like, fortunately that hasn't quite, you know, the unstoppable things.
Marc:You know, the things that sort of like, oh, that's probably going to happen, if I'm lucky.
Guest:Yeah, right, yeah.
Guest:You know, there's this thing, though, like, you know, I just turned 30 or 40 this year, but, like, you know, if I look, I certainly like my 30s better than I like my 20s.
Guest:You know, 20s I found terrifying, or just sort of, like,
Marc:Oh, yeah, because it's sort of like, who am I?
Marc:How do I fit in?
Marc:What's going to happen?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Why don't I have a handle on this shit?
Guest:Yeah, and in your 30s, you're actually like, wow, you hit a little stride.
Marc:Yeah, I'm doing okay.
Marc:And now the 40s, this is actually the best time I've ever had.
Marc:I feel like I finally arrived in my skin.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I sort of feel that same way, too.
Guest:Like, it's all gonna be, I feel like it's gonna be okay, even though it's not all good.
Guest:Those are two different things.
Marc:Right, are you one of those people that, like, I feel that, like, I'm like, well, I can accept myself, but that's a little scary.
Guest:Yeah, no, I feel like I can accept myself.
Guest:I feel like I've gotten to a point where it's like, look, I'm gonna do my best, and I'll tell you guys I'm gonna do my best, but, you know, look, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's gonna be some shortcomings, too.
Guest:Well, thanks for talking to me, Craig.
Guest:No, thanks, Mark.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:What a lovely guy.
Marc:What a great song.
Marc:Craig Finn.
Marc:It was a treat, man.
Marc:It was a real treat.
Marc:Hey, Boomer.
Marc:You know what, Boomer?
Marc:Stay the fuck out.
Marc:How about doing me that favor?
Marc:Your presence is in here already in the smell.
Marc:There's the Nag Champa.
Marc:Very nice.
Marc:And then just a hint of your pee.
Marc:You fuck.
Marc:I love you, though.
Marc:I love you.
Marc:Let's not make it awkward.
Marc:He's not even in here.
Marc:That's the weird thing.
Marc:I'm talking to an open door.
Marc:All right.
Marc:As always.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Look out!
Marc:I just shit my pants.
Marc:Go to justcoffee.coop or wtfpod.com.
Marc:Pick up a bag of WTF blend and I get a little on the back end of that deal.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com for all of your WTF needs.
Marc:We've got the new Hot Rod Coop shirts.
Marc:We've got the old shirts.
Marc:We've got posters.
Marc:We've got the apps.
Marc:You can find out who's been on the show.
Marc:Check the episode guide out.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Leave a comment.
Marc:Don't be a dick.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:That still helps out.
Marc:All that stuff.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Did I say that already?
Marc:I send out an email every week.
Marc:I write a new thing to you people every week if you get on the email list.
Marc:And it's just me talking, you know, giving you a heads up.
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:How's everything?
Marc:What's up with the cats?
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.