Episode 283 - Bo Burnham
Marc:are we doing this really wait for it are we doing this wait for it pow what the fuck and it's also what the fuck what's wrong with me it's time for wtf what the fuck with mark marron
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Knicks?
Marc:What the fuck, Aristas?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:This is a weird way to open.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It felt like my timing was off right there at the beginning.
Marc:Right from the get-go, my timing was off.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I guess I'm a little preoccupied.
Marc:It is Memorial Day.
Marc:I like to send my thoughts, my love out there to people who are remembering people they lost in any number of great skirmishes and battles and wars, for better or for worse, that this country has been engaged in.
Marc:So my thoughts are with you people.
Marc:It's also a strange Memorial Day for me today.
Marc:I'm sad, man.
Marc:I'm sad today.
Marc:I had a situation here at the house over the weekend and it was difficult.
Marc:You know, I had this stray cat, one of two or three, probably actually three or four that come around here to eat.
Marc:And I don't mind feeding them.
Marc:I have my own feelings about feeding them, but I feed them.
Marc:I don't like all of them.
Marc:A couple of them are annoying.
Marc:There's a deaf black cat out there that keeps giving my boomer a hard time, and there's nothing I can do about it.
Marc:These are stray wild cats, and he's deaf.
Marc:And it's weird.
Marc:And he's black.
Marc:But that's not a racial thing.
Marc:It's just a bad luck thing.
Marc:Or something.
Marc:It's a black cat.
Marc:And it's deaf.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:It's not the point.
Marc:There was one out there I've been feeding for probably a couple years now.
Marc:A black and white cat.
Marc:A sort of medium, long-haired cat.
Marc:Had a black and white face, looked like it was wearing a mask, like a black mask over her, what I thought was her face for a long time.
Marc:And, well, a week or so ago, this cat showed up.
Marc:I hadn't seen it in a bit, but it showed up just...
Marc:Nearly emaciated and not grooming itself and covered in dirt.
Marc:And what I later grew to realize was snot.
Marc:And it's horrible.
Marc:When you have a stray cat, this is a wild cat.
Marc:You can't touch the cat.
Marc:And it's ill.
Marc:It's clearly ill.
Marc:It's howling.
Marc:It's only eating wet food.
Marc:It's not eating dry food anymore.
Marc:It's not moving much.
Marc:And I couldn't get close to it.
Marc:And it looked ill.
Marc:So I had Sam, my assistant, pick up a trap at a vet.
Marc:And I trapped this black and white cat because I was going to bring it to the vet to get it fixed, to get it better, to make it okay.
Marc:um and i brought the cat in and the cat got all its tests and uh it turned out he thinks it had a very bad upper respiratory infection okay they're gonna give it some fluids give it some antibiotics clean up its face a bit and then uh i told him to keep it overnight until the rest of the test came in and i went in the next day and the cat's got fiv
Marc:And it was a difficult decision because the cat was clearly already getting ill.
Marc:I can't touch the cat.
Marc:But look, I'm the kind of guy I'll like, all right, it's sick, but it could live a while.
Marc:Let's just have him around a little while longer.
Marc:Turned out it is a he.
Marc:And he had been neutered at some point.
Marc:Let's just have that cat around a little while.
Marc:And I'll try to give it antibiotics, but I can't guarantee anything.
Marc:I can't let it in the house.
Marc:Doesn't want to hang out.
Marc:There's no way for me to take care of that cat.
Marc:I told that that that.
Marc:And he said, well, I mean, I think maybe the best thing to do is euthanize the cat.
Marc:And I'm like, but I heard the cats with FIV, they live a long time.
Marc:And he said, but I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if this is the beginning, if it's ever going to get over this infection.
Marc:It's pretty bad.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:It's not my cat, but I'm used to having that cat around.
Marc:I've got a relationship with this cat.
Marc:It's a bit codependent.
Marc:It annoys me a little.
Marc:He's a little entitled, but we've worked things out.
Marc:Certainly, I like having him around.
Marc:He said, well, it's up to you.
Marc:I don't know that you're going to be able to get this cat its medicine.
Marc:And every time I would have had to bring the cat in, I would have had to trap it all over again.
Marc:If it stopped eating, it wouldn't even go in the trap.
Marc:And then he said the thing that made me really make the decision, which was that when this cat does get sick, it's going to go somewhere alone and take about a week or more to die by itself.
Marc:So...
Marc:So I said, well, then I guess we better do what we got to do.
Marc:We better euthanize this cat.
Marc:So that happened.
Marc:And it's a weird decision to make.
Marc:I've actually, as long as I've been dealing with animals, have never made that decision.
Marc:My mother usually made that decision when I was growing up.
Marc:But it's done.
Marc:And I feel bad.
Marc:And I talked to my neighbor's wife and...
Marc:when I was trying to figure out what to do.
Marc:I asked my mother.
Marc:I asked Dave Anthony from the walk in the room guys.
Marc:You know, I did counsel with my girlfriend.
Marc:I asked my friends, you know, what am I going to do?
Marc:And Sharon from next door, she's like, well, I would not do it.
Marc:But then again, that may not be the mature decision.
Marc:And then after I did it, I told her what I did, and she goes, well, that was the mature decision.
Marc:So sometimes you've got to do things that go against your heart or that you might not be able to live with for a little while because it was the right thing to do.
Marc:I think it was the right thing to do.
Marc:But I'm selfish in that I would have, part of me would have rather had the cat around for as long as it would have take to have died.
Marc:And then one day I would have wondered where the cat was and then I would have thought like, well, I wonder if that cat is coming back around.
Marc:And then there was a good chance that that cat would just go off by itself and die a miserable, painful starvation and sickness death.
Marc:That was inevitable.
Marc:I don't know when it would have happened, but it was inevitable.
Marc:I feel like I made the right decision right now.
Marc:Talk to me in five minutes.
Marc:But on a lighter note, I went to see the Avengers, and they did an amazing thing for the planet in that movie.
Marc:I enjoyed that movie a lot.
Marc:It was very engaging.
Marc:I felt a lot of empathy with the Hulk, which you don't usually find.
Marc:I could relate to the Hulk a little bit.
Marc:Is that what you're supposed to come out of those movies with?
Marc:But that movie took my mind off for a little while.
Marc:But ultimately...
Marc:I'm still haunted, not by a superhero wearing an outfit or a mask, but by a little black and white cat that looks like he was wearing a mask.
Marc:I'll get over it.
Marc:I hope it didn't bum you out.
Marc:We got a great show.
Marc:We got Bo Burnham.
Marc:Been wanting to talk to that guy.
Marc:He's a young guy.
Marc:We were on the green room together.
Marc:And, you know, look, I am who I am.
Marc:I kind of condescended to him, but I'll tell you, we had a great conversation.
Marc:Good kid, this kid.
Marc:Smart kid.
Marc:Talented kid.
Marc:Hope you enjoy the talk.
Thank you.
Marc:Bo Burnham.
Marc:Sweet.
Marc:The mighty Bo Burnham.
Marc:I don't think we've ever really talked.
Guest:No, no, not a good talk.
Guest:Well, not a talk, I don't even think.
Marc:No, we ran into each other at the taping of The Green Room.
Guest:Yeah, and then we had the taping, but that's not a talk.
Marc:Right, and you took a couple shots at me.
Marc:That was all right.
Guest:No, it was nice.
Guest:You took shots at me.
Guest:It's a quasi-performance.
Guest:No, it was all in good fun.
Marc:It was all in good fun.
Marc:You had an ax to grind with the old-timers.
Guest:I was defensive there, I think.
Guest:I was a bit worried, defensive, and self-conscious.
Guest:And I may have lashed out for the purpose of entertainment.
Marc:You mean you did comedy?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In so many words.
Marc:That was about the best description of doing comedy I'd ever heard.
Marc:It was a bit defensive and I lashed out for the form of entertainment.
Marc:Oh, that should be on my business card.
Marc:You don't live here, do you?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just moved a couple months ago.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:From Massachusetts?
Marc:From Boston, yeah.
Marc:My parents' house.
Marc:From your parents' house?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like 12?
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:21.
Marc:Flip them.
Marc:Okay, 21.
Marc:21.
Marc:21 years old.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you're kind of a gifted guy, I think.
Marc:Oh, well, I'm 21 and I do comedy, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but no one just does that.
Marc:Okay, so you didn't grow up in Boston, did you?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:In the city?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:In the suburbs, like 30 minutes north.
Guest:Where?
Guest:Hamilton, Massachusetts.
Marc:I know the region because I started there.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I probably did some sort of, is there a Buzzy's Pub or a Joe's Grill?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I saw you mention it somewhere at Kowloon's at the Chinese restaurant.
Marc:Oh, yeah, sure.
Marc:Kowloon's in Saugus.
Marc:Yeah, in Saugus.
Marc:So you're close to Saugus?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:How the fuck did you grow up in that area and not get your ass kicked all the time?
Guest:I know, I got close.
Guest:I know, it's a very masculine area, and I have my problems with masculinity.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to say anything yet.
Marc:I mean, you know.
Guest:No, I got you.
Guest:No, I got you.
Guest:Loud and clear.
Guest:I've heard it.
Marc:Oh, no, I'm not kidding.
Guest:I'm 21 years deep of this, so.
Guest:Are you really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So you're always sort of, what do you think your problems with masculinity are?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I hit puberty really late.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like recently?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, now.
Guest:It's happening.
Guest:Yeah, I'm peripubescent at the moment.
Guest:But yeah, no, no, no.
Guest:I hit puberty very late.
Guest:Did you grow late too?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was my freshman year of high school.
Guest:I came in.
Guest:I was like 5'6", 105.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it was terrible.
Guest:And then my sophomore year, I probably gained five pounds and six inches.
Guest:And I remember I was in an all-boys Catholic high school at St.
Guest:John's.
Guest:That doesn't help anyone's sexuality.
Guest:No, it doesn't at all.
Guest:And I remember being in a class and rolling up.
Guest:We had to wear khakis and long collared shirts.
Guest:I remember rolling up my pants because I had a Band-Aid somewhere.
Guest:And my teacher asked in front of everybody, do you shave your legs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Was that a nun?
Guest:No, it was a 50-year-old man.
Guest:Well, that's even worse.
Guest:Yeah, very nun-like.
Marc:What was the tone of that question?
Guest:You know, the worst part is it was honest.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It was completely genuine, and everybody laughed.
Guest:They didn't even notice what that could have been.
Guest:How did you respond to that, Beau?
Marc:Did you lash out defensively?
Guest:I said, one day I'm going to do comedy, and you'll see.
Marc:In the form of entertainment?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I didn't learn that.
Marc:Lash out defensively in order to entertain people.
Guest:No, I wasn't really that.
Guest:I wasn't like the class clown or anything.
Guest:I was sort of just silent in the back, judging people.
Marc:Well, that's when I saw you first at the improv.
Marc:I'd known about you because you represented something that usually bothers me.
Marc:yes i know i know i know you know like you know it's like oh this guy's an internet sensation he plays songs sings funny songs and everybody loves him yeah yeah and then the first time i saw you at the at the improv you were literally just busy becoming a wall you were just sort of like you know like you had that vibe of like that dude's like um he's not he's socially awkward and he's always been like that and decided am i wrong
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:When you first saw me, I think you're totally right.
Guest:That's what I was busy being.
Guest:I was like, I was putting up a wall.
Guest:I was sort of, I love like Zach Galifianakis and all them back then, sort of discovering alternative comedy.
Guest:And I had seen the wall that Zach had put up, and I thought that I could just genuinely put that up, that same distance, sort of like, almost like...
Guest:nihilistic wall thing right but he brings a lot of cuteness to it and he's and he's and he's way more advanced in his writing and doing that and i was just sort of doing that to shut off what i honestly was right as a defense mechanism so it wasn't um yeah it wasn't it wasn't that honest and it was exactly sort of well yeah i didn't see you on stage you were just sort of like you know i could tell them
Guest:Well, yeah, that too.
Marc:No, I mean, it had nothing to do with your stage presence.
Marc:That's interesting, though.
Marc:You were just sort of not interacting much.
Guest:Yeah, well, I was terrified back then.
Guest:I still am a little bit scared.
Guest:In the clubs, I feel that same... I feel exactly what you're saying in that I'm young, and I feel that...
Guest:uh i i i know i don't think anyone hates me more for being young and an internet sensation than me i i do i do honestly think that i really do i really do um but uh yeah i sense all of that and then it's also it's a bit of a boys club so it brings me back to you know i guess to hamilton to hamilton
Marc:No, because I swear, I spent time in Boston, and I've never met a more aggressive masculine town.
Marc:There's that accent of like, fuck you, you fucking fake.
Marc:And I can't imagine that someone who is, you strike me as a very sensitive guy, intelligent guy.
Marc:It must have been a fight that you had to fight the whole time.
Marc:Is that why your parents put you in Catholic school?
Marc:Well, I guess they're there too, aren't they?
Guest:Well, it was like a decent school.
Guest:My mother was a nurse there, so I was able to go for free, which I wouldn't have been able to go to.
Guest:Your mom was a school nurse?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, she's now a hospice nurse.
Guest:So she upgraded from throat lozenges to severe death constantly.
Marc:Well, that's a booming business.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:It's weird that hospitals, it's the new thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like there's very few actual buildings, like hospice buildings.
Guest:Hospice nurses usually things that are just being people that are being sent out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But she's in like this giant building where she takes care of like 10 people.
Guest:The average stay is two weeks.
Guest:I mean, she's just seeing like four or five people die a day.
Guest:And then she comes back home.
Guest:How long has she been doing that?
Guest:Like three years or so.
Guest:Is it weighing on her?
Guest:Yeah, well, it's pretty incredible.
Guest:Like, a year or so in, she forgot the president's name, and she went into the doctor's thing, and she was having brain problems.
Guest:And then her boss was like, no, this is just what happens.
Guest:You're blocking out so much of what you see that some facts are going, too.
Guest:This is very natural.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's really incredible.
Guest:I'm hoping one day I could write a story about it or something.
Guest:I mean, I don't think I'm mature enough now, but it's really unbelievable.
Guest:And what's incredible is there are all these, like...
Guest:little middle-aged Boston women that all see me and they're like, oh, Bo, you're out in Hollywood.
Guest:Oh, congratulations.
Guest:And I know like when I leave there that they're these incredibly like heroic and strong women.
Guest:And I think it's so interesting because it represents like all of the things that I think feminism, like all the things that feminism has been trying to break out.
Guest:Women of gender roles of being nurturing and all this.
Guest:But rather than a sign of weakness, it's like the most heroic and fearless and like warlike state of what is so naturally
Guest:Hospice nurse.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's incredible.
Guest:They're all women.
Guest:They're all women.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And well, I mean, to know that and also the service they're providing so people don't die alone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what's incredible is she's like quite literally a guardian angel to these people.
Guest:to hundreds of people.
Guest:I've been with her in a diner where people have come up and started crying and being like, Patty, thank you so much, thank you so much.
Guest:And they leave and she's like, I don't remember them because there's hundreds of those people, you know?
Guest:She's more of like a metaphor to them.
Guest:But she also is incredible at that.
Guest:She's unbelievable.
Marc:She can't rightly say like, which one are you talking about?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I see a lot of people go.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was old, cancer, no, still nothing.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Marc:I'll try to remember.
Marc:Give me a name.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's amazing.
Marc:So were you close to her all through your life?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, very close to her.
Marc:You seem to speak reverentially of your parents.
Marc:I don't always encounter that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I do.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:My mother's very, very sensitive, and I think I'm a much better person than I am.
Guest:My father is very masculine.
Guest:He owns his own construction company.
Guest:He played football at Tufts.
Guest:So I played football to eighth grade.
Guest:And then I decided to be in theater and do plays.
Guest:And I did like a winter's tale in some summer theater, like a three and a half hour long, one of Shakespeare's more tedious plays.
Guest:And he came like three times.
Guest:So we actually, yeah.
Guest:So I, and again, this is something I maybe tried to articulate to you in the green room is that I had this, at the beginning, I had this resentment for having a strong foundation around me.
Guest:And I thought, you know, I envied all the pain that everyone went through.
Guest:And, um,
Marc:what you mean in comics yeah a bit but then i but then i experienced my own pain and being isolated well no i think you underestimate your uh sensitivity i mean you know i i can't i mean pain's relative and yeah totally comics are whiners yeah so it's not like you know very rarely is you know is a comic dealing with you know anything but but some degree of of social awkwardness for whatever reason right right you know but i mean it seems like you got that oh absolutely so wait you're so your father was a construction worker
Guest:Yeah, owns a little construction company, yeah.
Guest:And I had to, like, I worked for them, like, in middle school and stuff.
Guest:I was, like, painting shingles and bringing doors all the way upstairs that would come up with... With those guys?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how'd that pan out?
Marc:Did they treat you nicely because you're the boss's kid?
Guest:Yeah, I think, yeah.
Guest:You know, there's a gent... My friends from Boston are all pretty masculine dudes.
Guest:And I think I can fit into that better than I would think I would.
Guest:And they're all very self-aware and can laugh at themselves.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My relationship with people in high school was a little bit more distant.
Guest:Me being a theater kid in an all-boys school.
Guest:I mean, middle school, I thought I was gay.
Marc:Did you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how did you figure out you weren't?
Marc:No, don't like it.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:As funny as that is, that seems to be the turn that I would make.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I was in middle school, like seventh or eighth grade.
Guest:You know, like coming into myself sexually, you know, and maybe still.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But...
Guest:I really never, I never put it together that I was getting nervous around girls.
Guest:Like when I was around a girl that was pretty, I would, my heart would race and I couldn't feel my hands.
Guest:I had never felt that with a guy, but.
Guest:You couldn't feel your hands?
Guest:Well, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It got tingly and numb.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:All that lovely stuff.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Uh, but, um, yeah, I never put two and two together.
Guest:I was like, well, maybe I'm getting, I mean, I'm doing theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm, uh, I want to do theater.
Guest:You know, maybe, maybe.
Guest:And, and I, and then, uh, one of my darkest moments I remember from like, this is, this is just, uh, ridiculous.
Guest:But I was, uh, I was doing Honk, the seventh grade musical, which is a musical about, uh, well, it's the seventh, eighth grade musical.
Guest:I was a seventh grader.
Guest:I was a seventh grade boy doing the eighth grade musical.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I played a turkey that came out.
Guest:My big opening number was singing a turkey song.
Guest:And there was a rumor around, which is pretty bad in the theater group, that I was gay.
Guest:And it wasn't like a good thing.
Guest:It wasn't like a middle school, like, oh, we like you because you're gay.
Guest:It's all inclusive.
Marc:Were there other gay?
Guest:No, no, there wasn't.
Guest:So it wasn't like an inclusive thing.
Guest:So the rumor was going around that I was gay.
Guest:And everyone was asking me I was gay.
Guest:And I was waiting off stage.
Guest:I was dressed like a turkey.
Yeah.
Guest:And this always like, I always go back to this, to trying to realize where homophobia comes from.
Guest:And then it can actually come from a very like honest and hurt place, not a malicious one.
Guest:And I was off stage and I had heard the rumors and someone finally turned to me and said,
Guest:so are you gay?
Guest:And I like, with tears in my eyes starting to cry, I turned to them and I said, it was a girl, and I said, I'm not a fucking faggot.
Guest:And then I walked on stage and sang my turkey song.
Marc:He said that in an outfit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was like, so, and it was so, I remember it.
Guest:It's like, oh, it's so gross that I said it.
Guest:It was such a harsh and mean thing that I said.
Guest:I said it so aggressively homophobic, but it was just coming from a place I don't want to be made fun of.
Guest:I don't want to be ridiculed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's different.
Marc:It's different because you were, what you were countering was in that moment, what you imagined to be what was said about you.
Marc:right right it wasn't right right right it wasn't your feelings about gay people it was just to to meet the uh the gossip with the anger that you assumed they were putting at you yeah yeah like how could i be that if i think this about them right overcompensating yeah yeah like a gay guy yeah it's a little too defensive duffy duffy protest too much no i it was very turkey-like
Marc:No, I mean, I know you're not gay, but it's interesting that you had to deal with that only because of your interests.
Marc:It wasn't that you were attracted to men in any way.
Marc:You're just sort of like, well, I seem to be following all the steps.
Guest:But, you know, now on stage, I like to talk about like blowing guys and like keeping it kind of vague because I think like, oh, that's that's my little part I can do for the gay rights movement.
Guest:It's like people people really and fans don't know if I'm gay or not.
Guest:They really ask me genuinely.
Guest:They don't know.
Guest:I do like to keep it vague on stage because it's like I think a good way of projecting it is like if I don't care about whether I'm perceived, that's that's showing a little gay kid in the audience that I don't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now that you are talking more out of, I imagine, a reaction to everybody pigeonholing you as a musical act.
Guest:Yes, of course.
Marc:You decided, like, on my new record, I got some shit to say.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's very clear that the difference between an internet sensation and somebody who can have a career as a performer is that most internet sensations, they get pushed out there and they do their little thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:and they don't have a depth of craft or skills or creativity to continue.
Marc:So it genuinely seems to me that in looking at what you've accomplished, that your internet sensation thing was really just a new way to have a break.
Marc:I mean, you got a break, and for some reason or another, you're a gifted performer, you're a bright guy, you're able to build a career around that, which is not what happens.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I appreciate that, Mark.
Guest:That means a lot.
Guest:Because it's something, you know, I understand what that is.
Guest:And it's... There was a point where I was angry at myself for having broken through like that.
Guest:Because I was getting ready to go to NYU so that I could do stand-up at night and do the grind that everyone is... I felt the resentment that I had missed.
Marc:No, but what was... But wait, let's talk about that.
Marc:In the sense of... Okay, so outside, before you did the tape, you had graduated high school.
Guest:What do you mean being online?
Guest:It was my junior year of high school.
Marc:So it was your junior year of high school.
Marc:So your plan at that time, before you made the tape, was what?
Guest:I was writing these small songs just in summer theater backstage.
Marc:You were doing summer theater?
Guest:Yeah, I was.
Guest:Where?
Guest:At my school.
Guest:Yeah, my plan was to go to New York and then at night start to work on my material and refine it.
Guest:Not songs.
No.
Guest:Maybe, I don't know.
Guest:When the songs came out, my immediate thought was one day I'll be able to put down the music and become a real comedian.
Guest:And it wasn't until I saw people like Tim Minchin and Bill Bailey and all these people that I was thinking this isn't... When did you see them?
Guest:I saw them my senior year.
Guest:After you did the song on?
Guest:After I did the first few songs on the internet.
Guest:And the thing is, what was hard for me going forward is that this material that would have been my open mic material is now the first thing you see when you Google my name, you know.
Guest:And now that I'm 21, the thing that I wrote when I was 16 are the first things that you see about me.
Guest:And that five years must be the most significant change in mentality.
Guest:I mean, 16 or 21.
Marc:Yeah, but also, yeah, but I mean, but open mic material, when you're just up there telling jokes and trying to figure out your persona and stuff, you know, that's harrowing.
Marc:But I mean, coming from like a long, I mean, you were doing theater since you were, what, 13?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, you know, you were very comfortable on stage.
Marc:You could sing.
Marc:You had this musical ability.
Marc:So, I mean, that was your open mic.
Marc:I mean, when you're able to do a song and it's complete and it's whole and you can express yourself thoroughly, I mean, you're not really... That's not the same.
Guest:But it was the first things that I had written.
Guest:Really the first things that I had written.
Guest:And I just put them out there not knowing what... In 2006, no one knew what YouTube was.
Guest:The idea of even being a YouTube celebrity or like... So why'd you do it?
Guest:I mean, how'd that happen?
Guest:I wanted to show it to my brother, and there were other people.
Guest:You just wanted to share it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, because at the time, the narrative of an internet celebrity didn't exist yet.
Guest:How many brothers have you got?
Guest:I have one, an older brother, older sister.
Guest:Oh, two older ones.
Guest:Older brother, older sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah and and and um but once that happened i did try and i think this is something that other the internet doesn't encourage and i think my generation doesn't encourage is that when it happened i really did because i had respected comedy so much and i had worshipped comedy so much and dug into it really i really have i really when did you start having experiences with comedy
Guest:Young, probably the same time, around 14 or 15, I started watching Carlin.
Guest:And then around 16, I found Steve Martin, and that really changed... The records?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's really how it changed everything.
Guest:When I listened to Let's Get Small and Wild and Crazy Guy, I was like, oh my god, this could be me.
Guest:Because I was seeing...
Marc:Because he integrated music in, too, as well.
Guest:Yeah, and even more than that, when I'd seen Carl Lennon, I was like, well, I'm 30 years away or 40 years away from ever doing this.
Guest:I don't have that strong convictions.
Guest:I have nothing to muse about.
Guest:I have no life experience to share.
Marc:But you're an intelligent guy.
Marc:I find that hard to believe.
Marc:I think you probably do have convictions and probably did.
Marc:You seem not precocious, but you're certainly an intelligent person.
Marc:You're doing Shakespeare, for fuck's sake.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I don't feel comfortable, though, getting up and asserting certain things, even at this point.
Guest:But seeing someone be a bit silly, undercutting things, I think that's something that's very youthful.
Guest:It's like me getting up and sort of, you know, going fuck you to structure a little bit and being wild and yelling and screaming and playing some songs, doing some poetry.
Guest:And that all seems something that was within, you know, my wheelhouse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah, so when it happened, I really did try to take a breath and slow down and realize that I need to now do the work.
Guest:The exposure has happened for me luckily out of nowhere.
Marc:So give me the timeline.
Marc:So you put the thing up.
Marc:You're 16?
Guest:Yeah, 16.
Guest:And who shot it?
Guest:Myself.
Guest:I just put a little camera like on a stack of books.
Marc:And you sang your songs.
Marc:You did three.
Marc:I did, yeah.
Guest:I did two at the front.
Marc:And you put two up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you emailed your brother and your family.
Marc:And you told some people at school or what.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That was sort of a dead end.
Guest:It sort of stayed around like 100, 200 views.
Guest:It was going around like my school and a neighboring school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then it was featured on a site Break.com, which is a very big masculine site.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:yeah and then ask you in one way like it's like guys getting hit in the nuts oh really yeah yeah and um it got a million views in a day and like i i think i said this um yeah the first comment was go go gadget faggot that i ever read on on uh and what was the name of the song it was about my family thinking i was gay
Guest:Which, like, I look back and I'm like, jokes aren't great or anything.
Guest:There's a few okay lines, but it's like, oh, you know, at least I started with this thing that was very true and terrifying for me.
Guest:And something that I was not owning at the time.
Guest:I really wasn't.
Guest:That was me owning it.
Marc:Your family did think you were gay?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I might have been a year past that, but that was something I was terribly self-conscious about.
Marc:Well, how does that manifest itself?
Marc:Like, they don't know if you know, and they're sort of stepping around it?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, they still say, oh, no, we didn't.
Guest:I'm like, well, it doesn't matter if we did.
Marc:But you just felt your dad sort of like, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, who knows?
Marc:I got the kid hammering shit.
Marc:Seems to take to it.
Marc:I'm making up a character of your father.
Marc:He's probably more like, I got him out there hammering shit.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:He's putting walls up.
Marc:He played bad, bad football, for fuck's sake.
Marc:I did everything I could to stop it.
Guest:Yeah, he's fucking shit in the bed over there.
Guest:Does he talk like that?
Guest:Shit in the bed, yeah.
Guest:Shit in the bed.
Marc:And your mother was sort of like, did she ever have those conversations with you?
Marc:Like, we want you to know that we love you no matter what.
Guest:No, but there was a conversation at one point, I think, that was like, you know, if you want to watch porn or all these things...
Guest:Like I was not being that sexually active my first few years of high school.
Guest:So to have your mother tell you that it's okay to be sexually active when you want to be and can't is like the most horribly embarrassing thing.
Marc:Well, how, why did I get the impression?
Marc:I mean, you're at a Catholic school.
Marc:How Catholic were you guys?
Marc:Not.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:You weren't brought up with the Jesus?
Guest:I wasn't, I was a bit, my mother's Christian.
Marc:Like new Christian?
Guest:Yes, like new age, like we're all drops of water in an ocean, love everybody.
Guest:Like the church that we go to, I don't go to, but we went to it on Christmas Eve and the guy got up and was like, this is God's table.
Guest:You can all sit at God's table.
Guest:It doesn't matter what sexual orientation or gender you are.
Guest:Kind of Unitarian-ish.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, which is like,
Guest:My reaction is always like, you know, that's wonderful.
Guest:I mean, there's a part of me that's like, there's just a little bit further.
Guest:But it's, you know, there's no harm done.
Guest:And especially my mother's fucking dealing with death on a massive scale.
Guest:And for me, you know, from my little...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Even if you're practical.
Marc:I mean, like after a certain point, if you're just existentially practical, it's still going to play on you.
Marc:It's hard to put that shit into perspective without having some sort of community around it.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:You were never a big God guy.
Guest:I was when I was young.
Guest:I wanted to be a priest when I was younger.
Guest:Minister?
Guest:Minister, yeah.
Guest:I could see you doing that.
Guest:But it was just because I was attracted to talking and people listening to me.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Did you ever do any ministering?
Guest:In my first video, you can actually see a golden cross around my neck.
Guest:really yeah so did you ever do any administering did you ever get up there no no shot no i did a i did a um what are those called those like youth group retreats or something where i sat in the crowd and and a large african-american got up and told it was telling us about how like gays are going to hell and i i had a feeling whether he was or not that like the guy who was running my group yeah was a bit effeminate uh-huh i was like this is miserable yeah and disgusting yeah and uh
Guest:Yeah, but in high school, still some of the most brilliant people I've ever met, a lot of my teachers had dedicated themselves to this.
Guest:The person that ran the theater department there was a brother, was a Zavarian brother.
Guest:And he, like to this day, is still one of the most inspiring and like... A what brother?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A Zavarian brother?
Guest:Is that a sect within Catholicism?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's one of the groups?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But my Catholic school had like a day of silence for gays where people would... You had to come in and be quiet in order to be respectful for kids that were closeted and couldn't come out.
Guest:So it was a very strange, progressive, liberal Catholic school with a gay-straight alliance and everything.
Guest:Which, again, I'm like, great, guys.
Guest:This is wonderful, but you're not Catholic.
Guest:Why are you pretending?
Guest:Like, well, Catholicism is all about the people.
Guest:Is it...
Guest:Is it really like, I know that that's really beautiful.
Guest:I'm really glad we're doing this.
Marc:Well, they got to evolve the franchise.
Marc:They're going to lose people.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I mean, I mean, it comes right down to that.
Marc:Either they're going to break away to keep a flock.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or they're just going to scare everybody away with their Latin and their hell.
Guest:Right, but it did seem for a lot of those people to come to a genuine place of empathy for gay people.
Marc:So there was no clergy inappropriateness?
Marc:It wasn't that weird situation?
Guest:No, no, no, it wasn't.
Guest:So that's even another thing that doesn't really fit into the comic narrative.
Guest:When I'm like, I went to a Catholic school and they're like, ah, I got you, man.
Marc:I'm like, no, not really.
Marc:Gay-friendly Catholic school.
Marc:What's wrong with you?
Marc:You lived in a fairy tale and this isn't real.
Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you do the first one about the discomfort of your family and your gay, and the second song was what?
Guest:It was about my penis being small.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:I never played it again.
Marc:Was that based on truth?
Marc:No.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, you're a big guy.
Marc:You should have a small penis.
Marc:Yeah, 15-size shoe.
Marc:Okay, I get it.
Marc:So that was a fake one.
Marc:The first one was based on real issue in your life, and the second one was a dick joke.
Guest:It was a terrible joke that I never played again.
Guest:And then, you know, they kept going.
Guest:I found, like, offensive humor.
Guest:I was being offensive.
Guest:There's some things that I'm very ashamed of.
Marc:What was the third song?
Guest:One of them was something I'm... Kind of causes me a lot of... Well, okay.
Guest:It was a series of Helen Keller jokes.
Guest:It was basically, like, Helen Keller's the perfect woman.
Guest:I was 16 and a half.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And basically just made a bunch of deaf jokes.
Guest:And, like, it really... Even now... Wasn't she blind?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, also.
Guest:And yeah, there's some, you know, there's like some gags about like, you know, her reading my acne or something.
Guest:And like, I've lost sleep thinking about like some little deaf kid, you know, that like... Have you ever gotten any feedback along those lines?
Guest:I haven't, I haven't.
Guest:But I, you know, it has like three or four million views and the idea that there was a deaf kid that like another kid quoted my song to him, made him feel shitty.
Marc:Quoted to him in sign?
Guest:Yeah, some sort of, some sort of... Mm-hmm.
Guest:Or just, you know, made fun of it.
Marc:But that's out there.
Marc:That's an interesting problem.
Guest:It is out there.
Guest:It is out there.
Guest:And that humor is out there.
Guest:And the best thing I can do is learn from it and go forward.
Guest:And I was young and I still am young, but I was very young at that time.
Guest:High school kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was 16 and a half.
Guest:I had no idea really what I was doing.
Guest:But I've tried to, you know, as the exposure has sort of seemed to take care of itself in this small way.
Guest:I'm not huge.
Guest:I'm not recognized in the street or anything.
Marc:You must be a little bit.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Not really.
Marc:Maybe if you went to high schools.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, probably.
Guest:Yeah, on the streets of the halls.
Marc:In the halls.
Marc:Just go walking through high schools if you need some recognition.
Guest:So I've tried to take that step back and been like, now I need to do the work at a different level of finding my voice.
Guest:So what happened?
Marc:So now you got how many millions of hits on the first three?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, you do.
Guest:I really don't.
Marc:Give me a rough estimate, Beau.
Guest:Maybe a couple million?
Guest:On each?
Guest:Maybe at the time.
Guest:No, but I mean now.
Guest:Oh, now I have like 100 million on everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But there's only 13 videos.
Guest:I mean, you know, that's the thing.
Guest:There's comedians who have made way more videos on YouTube than I have.
Guest:That are not, you know, considered that.
Guest:I've only made 13.
Guest:I mean, you know, I haven't made one.
Marc:So now, OK, so they're hugely viewed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what's the decision process after that?
Marc:So now you're a junior in high school.
Marc:You got another year to go.
Marc:And now there's this weird popularity.
Marc:I mean, when did you start to feel that or was it just that there was a choice?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:Well, it lasted.
Guest:It's sort of.
Marc:And you wanted to go to Tisch, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:For acting?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was going... I got in for like experimental theater.
Guest:I wanted to do experimental theater, which is like very... And you got in.
Guest:Physical theater, yeah.
Guest:And so this is coming into senior year.
Guest:It was basically all the same.
Guest:And yeah, I got...
Guest:I went to the Montreal festival this summer going into college.
Marc:After you graduated, you got into Montreal, that's like July.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I had my Comedy Central Presents filming the week before I was supposed to enroll.
Marc:Wait, so July, you go up to Montreal, everyone's excited, you're a new face, you do a new thing.
Marc:Did Becky represent you?
Marc:Did he find you up there?
Guest:How did he find you?
Guest:From the internet?
Guest:yeah yeah my agent doug edley emailed me and how'd you have an agent uh he just emailed me no no sorry he emailed me like i want to represent you at my high school email he somehow his assistant found you were still in high school yeah yeah and then doug apparently approached dave okay so the so the video got such a a reaction that you were you know you show business was reaching out
Guest:Yeah, a few people from it.
Marc:Okay, so you got an agent that way.
Marc:He sets you up with a half hour for Comedy Central.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was a week before I taped that, I decided that I'll just give this a shot for a year.
Guest:I was young for my grade.
Guest:I was a year young for my grade.
Guest:So I was thinking I can defer.
Guest:I can defer from NYU for a year, do this comedy thing for a year, and then next year, maybe go back.
Marc:So how big was, like, when you, because, like, I mean, you started out at the top.
Marc:I mean, like, when you did your first tour, you were doing theaters, right?
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:I was doing clubs.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Clubs with pianos.
Guest:Clubs with a keyboard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you brought your keyboard.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And so comedy clubs.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how was the reaction?
Marc:I have to assume it has to be somewhat divided.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:It was weird.
Guest:It was... I was able to... I was playing... At that time, I was playing up the fact of being a tiny little child saying dirty things, wink.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And that... You were 20?
Marc:19?
Guest:I was... I was just turned 18.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so this is like, yeah, the fall that I... Did someone have to go with you to the club?
Marc:I mean...
Guest:At first, my parents would come for the first few months, and then I guess 2009, which is when I was, yeah, the rest of my 18 year, I was alone and just going on the road.
Marc:So you were headlining.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you had a middle act who was a stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And an opener who was a stand-up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how tense was that?
Guest:You know, as far as the whole thing has been, I went into it all being very scared of the reaction of people.
Guest:And for the most part of the whole, people have been incredibly positive and very supportive.
Guest:And there's been a few things.
Guest:I had a few experiences of like knowing the opener well and him telling me the middle act was talking shit about me when I was on stage and all that.
Guest:But, you know, that's going to happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:uh but yeah music guy yeah the music guy you know you know and music is a crutch and everything i understand that and i believe that i was doing that at first and that's why i wanted to move away from it until i found that it can become this really you know atmospheric like poetic device that that just makes your um show a little bit more theatrical rather than having a stand-up show just set to music i was trying to create a little one-man theater show now
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I don't know, like, see, I don't know that in your case it's a crutch as much as it is with some other people.
Marc:I mean, because, I mean, your form was songs.
Marc:You weren't, you know, just holding a guitar or noodling around on something.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Or pretending like you couldn't play.
Marc:I mean, you were, you know, it's like Tom Lehrer.
Marc:I mean, there are precedents set.
Marc:Alan Sherman.
Marc:There are people that did that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That their form, there was musical comedy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, of course.
Marc:And you come from that theater background.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But there's a certain type of quality of comic song that at some point there's like, well, this wouldn't be as funny if you were just saying these jokes.
Guest:But then when you embrace the sort of song structure and the idea of comedy that can only come from poetic twists, then it does become an organic and legitimate part of an act, I think.
Marc:With songwriting.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I'm just going to describe a bunch of things like comedy and songwriting in long, convoluted ways.
Marc:But so, I mean, how long most of your show...
Marc:was songs like the first album is all songs the first album is all songs now did you do jokes is banter i did i had probably like uh four or five jokes on my first album which was like uh just simple little one-liners uh-huh and then you've got what three albums or two i have i have two and these are big selling comedy records
Guest:Yes, you know, an oxymoron, but relative in the comedy album world.
Marc:No, I mean, and they always sell.
Marc:So you go out on the road, so you did a year in clubs, right?
Guest:Yeah, I did a year, yeah, a year and a half.
Marc:And when did, what broke you into theaters?
Marc:A half hour?
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can still only play theaters in a few markets, like in maybe Boston and Chicago and L.A., and even then it's like a thousand-seat theater.
Guest:I found a year and a half in that there was these small rock venues that were just – which I'm still sort of playing now, which are basically the same as –
Marc:400, 500.
Guest:Yeah, 400, 500, you know, and it's like, whoa, you're playing, like, rock theaters, and, like, or, like, my friend Anthony Jesselnik is, like, playing, you know, six nights at Tampa, and he might be selling 2,000 tickets there in, you know, over the course.
Marc:Right, you can do, and you can do, maybe.
Guest:I'm just doing one night at 500 seats, so it's, you know.
Marc:It's an efficient way to do it.
Guest:And I'm not playing, so I'm not playing, I absolutely can't play theaters.
Guest:And who are your people?
Marc:Like, I mean, who are your fans?
Marc:Are they little girls?
Marc:Are they...
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:At first, it was, yeah.
Guest:16, 17-year-old girls.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:About the 16-year-old girls.
Guest:At first, I was honestly self-conscious about that.
Guest:And I thought, oh, I have these, you know, I loved them.
Guest:I thought they understood what I was doing in a certain way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I thought, to other comics, this is the most illegitimate thing that I could have, is these young female fans.
Guest:I want these...
Guest:cool indie alternative comedy fans.
Guest:I want the fans that are fans of the comics that I am fans of.
Guest:But then I found that like, it's kind of wonderful to have these, why should I, you know, you can preach to the choir or you can bring this weird sort of trying to bring this weird progressive skeptical comedy to young people.
Guest:Yeah, because... And they come in with a blank slate.
Guest:They have no idea what... Like, when I do poetry or stand-up or songs, they just completely accept that.
Guest:They have no... Well, that's because you... And it's really wonderful.
Marc:You come at it with a certain innocence.
Marc:You're not that much older than they are.
Marc:You know, out of whatever depth of your soul that you're going to communicate this stuff with, you're still who you are.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:You're not some bitter, fucking dirty old bastard.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I mean, and also, you must be... They must feel somewhat safe.
Marc:uh with your material you're not you're not menacing but i do think whether you're sensitive or not you seem to be a pretty uh uh you're angry somehow no yeah i am yeah i mean i don't like when i saw you at green room you know that one song is a very angry song yeah which one was that
Guest:Well, that one is a bit, oh, that's about, that was like, it's called Art is Dead and it's sort of a bit about like, I'm a little bit over that, slightly, but it was about like questioning what I was doing and like the ethics of what I'm doing.
Marc:Yeah, it's self-examination, but it's sort of a punk rock idea.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just like, why is this a good thing?
Guest:Why are we being revered for people that get up and are rewarded and we're so troubled?
Guest:Oh my God, we're so complicated.
Guest:We're not complicated.
Guest:We're children.
Guest:We're like small children that haven't... And again, and this is oversimplified and I was speaking for everybody and that's what is definitely a little precocious about it.
Marc:But were you, in a sense, fighting your gift?
Marc:I mean, at a certain point, now this is a realization that I did not come upon myself and I always envied, was that...
Marc:There is something about the communal experience of an audience and performing to generate feelings of adoration, feelings of reflection, feelings of love, to be the love object of an audience or to put enough love out there to where people have this communal experience.
Marc:Of course, of course.
Marc:I mean, that's not childish.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:It's really not.
Guest:You know, and I'm, I was always a very, I feel like a very left brain person.
Guest:I was always better at math and science.
Marc:Okay, you were?
Guest:And yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I feel more in tune with that.
Guest:And that's what I like to read about.
Guest:So I always think like, you know, like, like, evolutionarily, why is stand up what it is?
Guest:Like, what is it doing?
Guest:Is it a way for?
Guest:Is it like a way for us to progress emotionally?
Guest:I guess sometimes it's just this crazy animal thing where we get together.
Marc:It's a way to get girls and you got rooms full of 16 year olds.
Marc:I mean, you know, evolutionary speaking, the drive is to procreate.
Marc:So, I mean, charm, the ability to seduce.
Guest:Yeah, but I guess there's I think there's a little.
Marc:So you're wondering what your responsibility is.
Marc:That's not necessarily evolution.
Marc:You know, what is your responsibility?
Guest:Well, I'm talking about evolution as far as, like, the evolution of the human species.
Guest:Like, whether, you know, our minds are going to go digital and we'll be uploaded to computers and we'll all become weird pansexual non-gendered beings.
Marc:Is that what you're hoping for?
Guest:I think.
Guest:I think that's what's going to happen, right?
Marc:Right?
Marc:You asking me?
Marc:Yeah, I'll be dead by the time that happens.
Guest:Nah, you'll be around, man.
Guest:Just take your vitamins.
Marc:I mean, I am taking my vitamins.
Marc:You'll make it, man.
Marc:Unless they can hook me up to a machine that'll guarantee eternal life, which I find would become incredibly tedious.
Guest:Who knows?
Guest:We'll be outside time and space.
Guest:You won't even know what tedious is.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So you really do noodle around this shit.
Marc:So this is your reading?
Marc:You're reading science fiction and future projections into the technological nature of things?
Guest:Yeah, I think it's fun and silly and weird and nice to think about.
Marc:Do you hang your hopes on that?
Marc:I mean...
Guest:Uh, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, something that's happened for me, it's like the luckier I've become and the more, um, fortunate I've seen my life be synonyms, the more I feel like my life is a, a, um, it could actually be a simulation.
Guest:Like I could die and then take off a helmet and I look and it's like the Bo Burnham 2000 and there's a whole line of people crying, waiting to get in line.
Guest:And I'm like a little, I'm like a little Asian boy and I'm like, uh-huh.
Guest:But I miss my, I miss my parents.
Guest:They're like, we miss our parents.
Guest:We miss your parents too.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Because it's like, the more I see that like I'm, I really do feel so lucky.
Guest:I feel like I'm doing what I really love to do in a way that other people aren't.
Guest:And I feel like I didn't even need to, I have a wonderful family that's very supportive.
Guest:I haven't really experienced a giant tragedy.
Guest:And when it does, I know it's going to knock me on my ass.
Guest:But I really do think, is this just, I seem so, what's more likely?
Guest:What's more likely that I'm this lucky or that I'm living in the future?
Guest:And this is just a small digital projection.
Marc:Well, that's ridiculous.
Marc:And it's an interesting fantasy.
Marc:But I mean, there's no reason that you have to assume this tragedy.
Marc:Why do you feel like you have that coming?
Marc:I mean, life is difficult.
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Marc:I just I think the big tragedy for you is you're going to fucking grow up.
Marc:And I think that projection of yourself is, you know, God forbid you get five years or 10 years down the line from now and you're still singing songs to 16.
Guest:No, that's what I'm saying.
Marc:Then then you're going to then you're going to be looking back in the mirror at a guy that didn't emotionally evolve.
Guest:I have been worried about that since day one.
Guest:And that's what I do want to try to communicate to people is that I really have been working on that.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I don't think I deserve to be here.
Guest:I don't think I deserve to have these opportunities.
Guest:Well, enough of that.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:But really, but I do feel like...
Guest:For someone that has been put in this position, I feel like I have made the right choices.
Guest:I made my first album that worked and sold well, and I could have turned around and made another one in six months because I had found an audience, I'd found what they'd liked, and I did something different.
Guest:I mean, I got up and I did things about religion or Shakespeare or tried to do stand-up and tried to do poetry.
Guest:Is it great?
Guest:Is it where it should be?
Guest:I don't think it is.
Guest:I don't think I found my voice.
Marc:It doesn't sound like you're ever going to...
Guest:fucking you know just let yourself be doesn't i mean that's your that's your comic achilles heel is that you're going to beat the shit out of yourself all the way through this thing yeah yeah that's probably and yeah and it's like and i really appreciate you being very thoughtful with me mark because i didn't i didn't know you've shown a lot of respect and that you know and i appreciate that because i didn't i wasn't sure what i was going to get coming in here i was very very nervous and
Guest:Because I just feel, you know, older comedians, which is a relative, might as well just be comedians, you know, have said that, I don't know if I buy into the, you know, you need a 10 years for being a good comic.
Guest:I think in 10 years I'll be a much better comic and a more legitimate and maybe just a real comic.
Guest:But I've heard a lot that I don't have a legitimate relationship with this thing, that if I'm 21, I can't possibly have a legitimate relationship with comedy.
Guest:With what?
Guest:Comedy?
Guest:With comedy.
Marc:You're a performer.
Marc:The thing is, those rules were created by comics at a different point in time when there was more of a... You could see it more as a team system.
Marc:You started out as an opener in your home club.
Guest:Yeah, the hierarchy has really been destroyed.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It doesn't exist anymore.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And quite honestly, and I'm a guy that grew up in that, look, a performer is a performer.
Marc:And the truth of the matter is, for what you're doing, which is singing and emoting in a funny way, and you do do it comedically, I mean, your prime is when it is.
Marc:To be as energetic and not to be an old guy, I mean, the kind of songs you're singing
Marc:are great for your audience.
Marc:I mean, the people that you attract to your show, that's when you're building your crowd.
Marc:I mean, the real trick is, is when you have something like you or anybody, this is what I've noticed more than anything else, more than however long it takes you to get where you are, is that once you fucking find your window and you build your audience, how do you grow up with them?
Marc:because like you know as a comic you got what a five or six year window you build this audience usually it's kids now you know you look at a tell or dane or anybody else and then 10 years down the line they're going to be married they're going to not have time to go to shows their their priorities are not the same you know so you know how do you grow up you know in public and and continue to evolve your audience and become more sophisticated with what you're doing
Marc:So your journey as an artist or as a performer doesn't have to be relative to this ridiculous system that is now only given lip service by bitter comics who may be the ones who are saying, like, you know, I put in my time.
Marc:And usually the ones that are touting that system are not that successful in general because, you know, big comedy stars, who the hell knows?
Marc:It took, you know, Louis Black 20 years.
Marc:It took Rodney Dangerfield 30.
Guest:And then Eddie Murphy was 22 when he did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's really... What it really comes down to is when you get your break and you're a performer, can you take advantage of it and can you build a career out of it?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So give yourself a break on that one.
Guest:Yeah, well, thanks.
Guest:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Marc:But I think you're the kind of guy... What makes me hopeful is I think you're the kind of guy that is so hard on himself that what you've got in you that I think is really exciting is the possibility of just one performance just like, fuck you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:Well, I've had the sense... I've really been fantasizing about like...
Guest:vomiting on stage or like getting naked and like putting my dick between my legs.
Guest:Still like me!
Guest:Yeah, I have fantasies of that stuff.
Guest:But like, yeah, I'm trying to develop, you know, I'm trying to find how in this musical form I can be a little bit more, explore myself a little bit and be a little less tied down by even the physical act of playing the piano.
Guest:So...
Guest:In my new hour, I've been trying to... My new show I'm working on, I've been, like, you know, working on backing tracks and doing, like... I do, like, this weird, like, duet with my left and right brain where I play both parts and sort of argue.
Marc:See, I see... It's smart for you.
Marc:Like, this is what I see you doing, if I could give you some career advice.
Marc:Is that because of, like, when you let go of this, you know, of judging yourself against the bitterness of comics...
Marc:and the judgment of comics is that, you know, you could do a Broadway show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I'd love to do that.
Guest:I would love to do that.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, whatever this is doing, you know, you're building up a lot of performance chops, a lot of experience in performing in adverse situations, in conditions that most actor performers don't perform in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it seems that you're building a way to put together a real musical theater event that could have some teeth to it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Guest:Yeah, I would love to do that.
Guest:But I could also see, I could see, you know, in 10 years down the line or something, wanting to just get up and do something that seems to be more traditionally stand-up.
Marc:But there was obviously a very conscious decision on this second record where you're like, I gotta fucking do stand-up.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, totally.
Guest:And it was that.
Guest:And it is like, yeah, you're completely right in picking up all the defensiveness.
Guest:Not that you needed probably a fine-tuned thing.
Guest:You probably just needed to have any of your five senses turned on.
Guest:But yeah, I moved out here and just kept going up the improv and just doing stand-up.
Guest:And I wanted 15 minutes of stand-up in my...
Guest:But yeah, it is very silly and still, it actually is very derivative of the songs because it is a lot of sort of little... They're quick jokes.
Guest:Yeah, and twists of words and language, you know.
Guest:Turn a phrase.
Guest:And I don't yet have the confidence to get up there and state an opinion.
Guest:Well, what if you thought about... Or I can backhandedly through a joke, but not really.
Marc:Well, what if you thought of yourself as a character?
Guest:Well, that's – yeah.
Guest:Well, I could maybe do that.
Guest:And, you know, that's something that I really would love to see, you know, happen in America is that, like – I'm trying to do, you know, stuff that's a little bit more theatrical and stuff.
Guest:And it seems in Europe that, like, you know, character comedy and, you know, really comic – in music –
Guest:And experimentation is everywhere.
Guest:I mean, there's concept albums, there's experimenting, and it's very rare in comedy, you know, but like David O'Doherty is this great Irish comic, and he did a whole hour in Edinburgh last year that was him as like an Arctic explorer, which is like Sgt.
Guest:Pepper, you know, he's doing an album as somebody else.
Marc:But I mean, I'm just thinking that because you seem to live your life through these songs and you find it easier to express your frustration and your situation in an in-depth way, that maybe because of your acting chops and you are a theatrical person.
Marc:I mean, by nature, I think you're more comfortable when you are able to sing or perform something.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And that when you get on stage as a comic, you get a little uptight and you want the laughs relatively quick.
Guest:I'm not myself.
Guest:I don't feel like myself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you look at these jokes as almost math equations.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know exactly where this is going to go.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Which is not unusual for joke writing, but you seem to be chomping at the bit to talk.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah yeah so you got and right now the way my talking is expressed is like in like screaming like i'll just like scream or like i'll like lie on the stage and moan and talk about like wanting to drink bleach or something do you do that yeah yeah in between songs just like in between jokes i like just oh really yeah just like a good way just like just for me to get just feeling it out seeing what you can do up there yeah yeah how's the audience react to that
Guest:uh i i make it very quick you know and i and i and i try to put it in the times where they're where they are laughing like if they start laughing i'll start screaming about like give it to me you know or something or like uh so you got a lot of fear up there as a stand-up yeah i do i get very nervous before shows i'm never i'm very very nervous but music what if it's just music you're not nervous oh yeah yeah totally yeah
Marc:But do you feel like you, because for me, it's the opposite.
Marc:If I'm gonna sing, I'm petrified, because that to me is so vulnerable.
Marc:But doing stand-up, I'm not afraid anymore.
Marc:But it seems to me that for you to stand there alone and waiting for that first laugh, it's hard for you to feel comfortable.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:It seems... You're still fucking young, too.
Marc:I've got to keep reminding myself.
Marc:I don't know what I'm expecting out of you in the sense that this is all pretty new to you in some weird way.
Guest:Yeah, but... No, no, no, right.
Guest:But it's not always that dynamic because I've been doing sets here the last few days where I've been trying out new songs and doing jokes that I know work.
Guest:So I'm way more comfortable doing the stand-up because I know that those are going to work and get laughs.
Guest:And then I'm nervous.
Guest:I'm like, oh, shit.
Guest:This song's really not anywhere close to where it needs to be.
Marc:but do you get you can get lost in a song at least yeah you can but that is the wonderful thing about doing it like the that is something that is a bit of a safety net in doing songs that the rhythm is so much less dependent upon the audience yeah you know so you don't have to worry you're in you're in your once the song starts right there i'm going all the way through this yeah yeah yeah you don't stop songs goes fuck this yeah do you yeah i have yeah but uh so what's this show you're working on um yeah what do you mean poetry
Guest:I'm working on a poetry book that's going to be sort of like a illustrated sort of, you know, Shel Silverstein for adults would be a kind of a weird version of it.
Guest:But it's not dirty.
Marc:You like Shel Silverstein?
Guest:Yeah, I love him.
Guest:I think he's wonderful.
Guest:And my friend who's an unbelievable illustrator is doing the drawings for it.
Guest:and uh which is a great thing that when i was working on the show and i started couldn't do the stand-up anymore and i was feeling like you know i was having to write in this little box it felt nice to just be able to like go to a coffee shop and just like let my mind wander for you know weird weird poetry well how do you feel like i i in your future i see you being cast in a musical
Guest:I could do that, maybe.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm not a great singer at all.
Guest:I really am not a great singer at all.
Marc:You don't have to be a great singer at all.
Guest:Yeah, I would like to write a musical, maybe, but I would have to write lyrics more than music.
Guest:I'm not a great composer.
Guest:Jesus, I almost said composer.
Guest:I'm not a composer at all.
Marc:But have you thought about storylines for stuff like that?
Guest:Yeah, I have thought of this idea for a musical that was like,
Guest:it would sort of like open on like a cold, like little town that's all normal.
Guest:And then all of a sudden it's sort of about, it's about this like disease of musicals, sort of like zombies spreading through.
Guest:And like the first girl that's infected runs on stage and she starts to sing and they all look at her and they're like, what the hell's happening?
Guest:Sort of this musical about musicals.
Guest:Virus, a musical virus.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I like that.
Guest:But again, that's very vague and I would have to sort of nail that down.
Marc:It would have to take place in a world without song.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And like a village.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:It'd be cool.
Guest:And like the guy that really hates musical gets up at the court to speak and then he's like, we need to stop this.
Guest:He starts singing and he's all terrified.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Guest:But yeah, that could maybe happen.
Guest:But I'm aware of like...
Guest:my limitations with that.
Guest:And I've become very aware of my musical limitations.
Marc:But then like the mayor guy, he like, you know, he has to figure out, like he has to go to the scientists in the community to somehow create an apparatus to stop his singing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that makes him sound really weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she could, yeah, it could become a whole world war.
Guest:And like, yeah, they're being quarantined and everything.
Guest:And they're singing like through, you can hear their muffled singing coming from.
Marc:And then they figure out an antivirus for it and they kill the virus.
Marc:But then, then that, that, that girl who first got it decides that she wants to sing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then the town realizes, like, we've been given a gift.
Marc:And then there's a big finale.
Guest:Mark, we went into this wanting to write a song.
Marc:We just wrote a musical.
Guest:I know!
Marc:Talk to my agent.
Marc:I get partial credit on anything from this forward point with the musical virus idea.
Marc:It'd be funny.
Marc:What'll happen is that'll appear off-Broadway in six months.
Marc:You'll be like, oh, fuck, I shouldn't have talked to Maren about that.
Marc:We gotta put a...
Marc:That's our idea.
Marc:All right.
Marc:You can have the idea.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Guest:I'm good with that.
Guest:No, we can do it.
Marc:Tell me about this, before I forget, experimental theater.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:When you were going to go to NYU, because I see you sitting at a piano, and then I see you stand in front of a mic, but what about physical comedy?
Marc:I mean, what is experimental theater?
Guest:Well, it's like, what we did in high school is people like Grotowski, and there's this Japanese dance, Butoh, which is like this- You stomp around?
Yeah.
Guest:It's this dance that happened at like a... It's really... It's very interesting and sort of informing for me like comically in a way because it was a dance that came out of Japan after World War II and the bombs had dropped and they were like, Jesus Christ, the world is fucking ugly and scary and terrifying and why isn't dance reflecting that?
Guest:There's no... So it's this dance where they cover themselves in white powder and they do these really like...
Guest:terrifying weird like the greatest buto dancer of all time was the founder was like in his height when he was 99 years old because he was like so decrepit and weird and strange and that's really informed like my comedy of like oh yeah you know there's there's such a wide range of emotion and uh you know and there's such a wide range of experience and expression it all seems to be in this narrow band of like masculine uh musings
Marc:Right, but this is a fight that you're going to either let go of or continue to judge yourself against.
Marc:Like the masculine musings in the older comics.
Guest:Oh, no, I'm just looking at comedy.
Guest:No, no, I'm not even looking at myself.
Guest:I'm just looking at comedy in general.
Guest:No, I know, but you see...
Marc:right but you see it as a fight yeah i mean you're fighting some sort of fight in your head yeah against expectation that you've created yeah yeah either real or not but what would stop you from you know being having the balls to to to intellectually understand this stuff and this stuff and let it inform your comedy like i've never seen budo dancing why wouldn't bo burnham do some budo i wanted to i really wanted i really thought of like why can't you do it now
Guest:I've thought of doing that.
Guest:I wanted to do it for like the last... When I did my Edinburgh show, I wanted to, for the last 10 minutes when they were leaving, get on stage and do it.
Guest:And I just didn't have the balls.
Guest:And I'm trying to get the balls.
Guest:And I thought I was like, I don't want to be indulgent.
Guest:I want to find a way to do this.
Guest:And I'm not a great... I wouldn't be great at that.
Guest:There's people that are way better at that.
Guest:And I would just sort of be using that form.
Marc:So that's interesting about you.
Marc:Because you're young enough and I can hear...
Marc:You know, everything that I have dealt with my entire life is that, you know, you're judging yourself against this this jury that you're inventing.
Marc:Like you're making assumptions about what people think.
Guest:But you didn't think you didn't think that about.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:I think that about you.
Guest:But you didn't think that at first because I thought that you were a legitimate member of that jury at first.
Marc:No, my reaction was it's musical comedy.
Marc:It's not my bag.
Marc:You know, like I, you know, I wasn't, you know, like anyone.
Guest:I know, I know, but my argument would be that you just haven't seen musical comedy that you, I think you would if it was done well enough for you.
Marc:No, sure, I cry at musicals.
Marc:I mean, and I, you know, and I like your stuff, but I'm just, you know, I was being belligerent.
Marc:And my reaction was not relative to, you know, what is or what isn't.
Marc:It was just that, like, this kid's a flash in the pan.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, by the time I saw you in Green Room and I saw what you did, even though I condescended to it humorously.
Marc:I mean, fuck, I play guitar.
Marc:I like to sing.
Marc:No, no, I got you.
Marc:And, you know, the fact that you were a together performer, you can't deny that.
Marc:But I mean, but why would you, you know, live your life in fear of what assholes like me think?
Guest:Because it really has helped me grow.
Guest:And, like, I... You know, the internet has, of course... But you haven't done Budo yet.
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:And, you know, so there's places to be.
Guest:But, you know, the internet, like, of course helped me in exposing me.
Guest:But it really helped me as, like, this comic library of researching people.
Guest:And that is the real, like, huge comic pratfalls that...
Guest:Being critical of myself and hating myself and hating my act and not being able to watch anything, being repulsed by anything that I'm not currently doing has made me better.
Guest:And that is a very terrible thing.
Guest:But I get addicted to it.
Guest:I get addicted to being critical because it makes me better.
Guest:And that's the thing that I value myself by.
Marc:You like to beat the shit out of yourself.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, but... I mean, it makes you better to a certain point as long as it, like, do you find happiness ever?
Guest:Yeah, no, I do.
Guest:And I might be overplaying this.
Guest:I might just be coming in a little... It might be just because I'm coming in a little self-conscious with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, desperately wanting you... You are very... You are at the pinnacle of a thing that I want to impress more than anything else.
Marc:Well, I'm impressed.
Guest:Yeah, you know?
Marc:I'm already impressed.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:And I just, uh, so I may be reflecting myself more critical because I'm like, maybe even be a sick thing in me.
Guest:That's like, well, if he tell, if I show him how critical I am, if I show him how dark and questioning I am, then he'll really think I'm a comic.
Guest:But no, I am happy.
Guest:And I get on stage, I am so... When I make my... When I try to work on my show, at least this new one, it isn't so much so that I can impress you.
Guest:I mean, that obviously is a huge part of it, but a big part of it is like...
Guest:I work on that hour just so that once a week I can live.
Guest:I can exist like that.
Guest:Like being on stage and existing like that for an hour is like so freeing for me.
Guest:Because I'm not talking about things.
Guest:It really is I am doing this sort of piece, you know, that is a little more fictional and a little less...
Guest:autobiographical and being able to live like that is just like so it does give me such happy i'm not i'm not sitting on stage going oh shit that joke didn't work i really i'm trying desperately more and more to like lose myself because i that's what i want more than anything else i just want to be able to get on stage and like forget about everything and just really lose myself that's that that has always been the most euphoric feeling just to like completely lose yourself in this weird chaotic thing that you've that you you you you
Guest:You know, spend all your fine-tuning every single beat of this thing, and then somehow you live in it.
Guest:Yeah, it's a show.
Guest:Completely organically, you know?
Marc:Yeah, and it's not relative to the audience validation necessarily.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, at a certain point, it just, you know, it's like, okay, we'll take a random group of strangers and measure my self-worth by it.
Guest:And it's like, that's a dead end.
Guest:That's got to be a dead end.
Marc:It's also a dead end in, you know, making up, you know, angry comics judging you all the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just telling you that.
Guest:No, no, it is.
Guest:It is.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Marc:Because, like, what I mean, what you have on your side.
Guest:Well, having this talk with you is a big step in the right direction because it's facing my fear and realizing that it's not that bad.
Marc:You don't get dragged down by a bunch of negative Nancys.
Yeah.
Marc:and that's me saying that yeah but uh but but what i what what you have on your side is youth you have an amazing amount of talent and intelligence and that i think that the biggest horror would be is that you start to temper yourself in relation to trying to prove to these this fucking you know it's maybe visible but mostly many manufactured uh jury
Guest:Oh, yeah, but I think there's also enough of terrible arrogance within me that says the way I'll prove to you is by being something that you could never do.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I don't like about you.
Guest:But really, you know?
Guest:But not from the fact that you couldn't do because I'm more talented than you.
Guest:You couldn't do because I'm so young.
Guest:I'll embrace the thing that seems to be what people hate me for, even if I'm inventing it.
Guest:I'll embrace the fact that I'm a little bit young, a little bit naive, a little bit...
Guest:uh a little bit idealistic a little bit angry a little bit wildly emotional i'll just i'll do all of that to the nth degree so and and so that's what i mean by uh yeah that's what that that's my reaction to that rather than i rather than cater to you i'll just you know what this is a strength look at who i am fuck you yeah a little bit yeah you know i need i need that i need that's good spite is a huge motivator yeah yeah what have you learned from shakespeare
Guest:Well, Shakespeare is, you know.
Marc:I mean, do you take it in?
Marc:I mean, I know you've done some plays, but do you read it and get joy out of that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love Shakespeare.
Guest:I think it's just his attention to language, you know.
Guest:But it's the same thing I get from like, you know, Patton Oswalt or something of just like absolute.
Marc:He doesn't need any more smoke blown up his ass.
Marc:But yeah, it's fine.
Marc:Tell me what you get from Patton and Shakespeare.
Guest:Yeah, maybe that was catering to a comedy nerd.
Guest:If I've ever heard it.
Guest:The AV club's gonna love that clip.
Guest:No, it's just an attention to language.
Guest:It's the same with Jesselnik, same with a lot of people.
Guest:Just an absolute, like, not one word is out of place, you know, and just an inventiveness, you know, just like, and I just take, with Patton, just like, little freight, like twat.
Guest:No, he's great.
Guest:It's like very similar to Shakespeare's
Marc:Yeah, I'd say it's Rabelaisian.
Marc:He's very good at sort of lyrical descriptions.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So Shakespeare really informed my... But again, there's certain people... But what about life lessons?
Marc:I mean, Shakespeare was crunching big ethical and moral and familial scenarios that have to deal with power and love.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Do you take that shit in?
Guest:I try to, but I...
Guest:There's certain people that I admire comically and people like Shakespeare or musically where I'm like, I can't even say that I'm influenced by them because they're operating at a level so far above me that I can't remember.
Guest:I think you'll get there.
Marc:I mean, you're still pretty young and you seem to be adept.
Marc:right right but it's just like I'm taking in all that stuff I understand that Shakespeare is but I'm like I have nothing to contribute in the meaning of as smart as you are and you're too old to be precocious but and as talented as you are you still only have so much wisdom that is your own so you know you gotta go out and get dirty somehow so what's this new show
Guest:Well, it's a mockumentary with MTV.
Guest:It's called Zack Stone's Gonna Be Famous, and it's about a kid who's filming his own life trying to become famous.
Guest:It's a character.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I really loved mockumentaries, and I fell in love with The British Office.
Guest:It was my favorite show.
Guest:And I wanted to do one, and then mockumentaries were just springing up everywhere, and I was like, oh, man, it's seeming like well-tread territory.
Guest:And then I thought, well, what if the...
Guest:what if the camera people were actually there?
Guest:What if the crew is, you actually felt the crew?
Guest:It wasn't just the device in order to like, you know, put voiceovers or exposition in.
Guest:And what if the person in front of the camera, rather than being like a victim of the camera, was actually in control of it?
Guest:What if he actually had control, was directing his life?
Guest:And so it's basically a kid making reality show where the enemy is reality.
Guest:And it's sort of a way for me to address...
Guest:Probably the one thing that, you know, when you talk about my wisdom, I know I lack all of that in many things, but one thing I do think I have... Jesus, you're so dramatic.
Guest:No, I'm just hyperbolic.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I'm just, you know, a little reductive.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Anyway, so I know I'm the biggest piece of shit in the world, but I...
Guest:But one thing I do think I know is like what we're doing to children.
Guest:Like what the world of fame and this sort of new hierarchy.
Guest:The show was sort of conceived a bit in reading something that said they asked graduating high school seniors what do they want to be when they grow up.
Guest:And 40% said famous.
Guest:That was the biggest answer.
Guest:Like doctor was second.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And just this sort of world that we're bringing children into where like girls are more self-conscious and terrified than they ever are.
Guest:And then the older people say, oh, these girls are so fucking slutty.
Guest:What are they doing now?
Guest:It's like they're damaged, terrible, ruined people that have like are overstimulated and like constantly surrounded by people more beautiful than them.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:They have magazines that are telling them, that make them hate themselves, that are promoting musical artists that then sell songs that say I love you in them.
Guest:Do you know why all these songs about like I love you, I love you are selling so well?
Guest:Because these girls need that so desperately because they feel fucking hated by everything.
Guest:And, you know, that was some of the impetus for doing this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just just to doing a show about like how fame is this kid's gonna be trying to be famous and fame is the enemy and that we need to sort of realize that.
Guest:And again, I'm the whole point is that it's hypocritical.
Guest:I think of it as like a documentary about heroin addiction by a heroin addict on heroin at the time.
Marc:But no, I don't know that that's true because it seems to me that you've got a character there and that what you're trying to do is gut fame as you sort of move through this character as sort of humbling.
Marc:That he's immature and he's trying to pursue this great payoff of everyone knowing him.
Marc:But along the way, he finds out that it's really the smaller things in life and of itself.
Marc:So yeah, I mean, yeah, that's great.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:That's great, because I heard some of that anger in that song about art and about everything else, that in a general way, you're concerned with the culture of distraction and spectacle, and you think that kids and even adults are being denied real sort of human experience.
Guest:Yeah, and choice and pursuing what they love.
Guest:And relationship.
Guest:Yeah, they're taught to love.
Guest:They genuinely love bullshit.
Guest:They genuinely love...
Guest:And that for me has sort of been like my experience with comedy and in that like at first I was trying to, I felt like I was just trying, you know, just trying to be famous.
Guest:I was generally just trying to be famous and then trying to be, you know, respected and all this stuff.
Guest:And I'm trying to land a place where I'm now, I think, just really trying to be a good person.
Guest:Like, am I going to be able to, and that's a hard thing.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:what your experience that was marked to you, but like, I'm trying to find, is this stage a play, can it make me a bit, I know it can make me more successful, and I know that maybe being successful can make me more happy, but can I be, can this make me feel good about myself?
Marc:Well, you're very raw nerve, you know, so, and also, like, there was a, you know, theater played an important role in community.
Marc:The one thing that you get, not just from a documentary, but being a live performer with the type of sentiment you have, is that the experience of seeing a live performer, especially one that's confronting the issues you're talking about, as a communal experience is powerful.
Marc:I mean, it definitely speaks.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Marc:I mean, it seems like you've definitely got the...
Marc:yeah i mean you seem to have this interesting mixture of uh of anger frustration and and some human righteousness you know and concern for young people that i mean it could be great i mean and i think you know that you have the power if you you know those girls came to see you to begin with that you have the the heart you can get the hearts and minds of young people yeah because you are one yeah i am one and i and i
Marc:And you're blowing minds by framing this shit differently, by making those kids question exactly what you're talking about.
Marc:What is it that you want to be and why?
Marc:And look how shallow it is.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:And look how empty it is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's hard and it's a struggle for me because sometimes I feel like when I do my shows and then afterwards the girls are coming up, 15-year-old girls shaking.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm like, fuck, am I?
Guest:I feel like I'm playing both.
Guest:I'm trying so desperately to not do this, to demystify everything.
Marc:But some of your songs do that.
Marc:I mean, you are blowing minds in the sense that you're framing things intelligently in this way, musically.
Marc:But I mean, the message of those songs, outside of them being crushing on you, that's different.
Marc:But I mean, if they're singing the songs or they listen at home, you mean,
Marc:I think most people's experience with music does, if they're thinking about your words, I mean, the message is getting through.
Marc:You're not going to be able to stop them from not knowing what to do with their sexuality.
Marc:You don't want to stop that.
Guest:No, no, no, of course.
Guest:No.
Guest:I couldn't stop with me.
Guest:But yeah, there's just a give and take of like, man, are you contributing to this celebrity thing?
Marc:Oh my God, you're so fucking hard on yourself.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Marc:I didn't know this about you.
Marc:It makes me like you more.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:You say you don't have pain, but one of the classic dispositions of an artist is that I'm a fraud.
Marc:Nothing's good enough.
Marc:I should just quit.
Marc:I'm a fucking asshole to think I can do that.
Marc:That's all straight up stuff.
Marc:Straight up creative person stuff.
Guest:Well, Mark, this is great.
Guest:I thank you for having me and being respectful.
Marc:Can we play that song?
Guest:Oh, man, definitely, man.
Guest:Do what you want.
Marc:Do you like that one?
Guest:Yeah, I like that one.
Marc:Yeah, that one's a good one.
Marc:I like it.
Guest:It resonates with me.
Guest:Well, thanks, man.
Guest:If you want to play it, I'd be, yeah, of course.
Marc:All right, thanks, Bo.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Guest:This next song, honestly, is not funny at all, but it helps me sleep at night.
Guest:Heart is dead.
Guest:Heart is dead.
Guest:Heart is dead.
Guest:art is dead entertainers like to seem complicated but we're not complicated i can explain it pretty easily have you ever been to a birthday party for children and one of the children won't stop screaming because he's just a little attention attractor when he grows up to be a comic or actor
Guest:He'll be rewarded for never maturing For never understanding or learning That every day can't be about him There's other people, you selfish asshole Must be psychotic, and must be demented To think that I'm worthy of all this attention Of all of this money you worked really hard for I slept in late while you worked at the drugstore My drug's attention, I am an addict
Guest:But I get paid to indulge in my habit.
Guest:It's all an illusion.
Guest:I'm wearing makeup.
Guest:I'm wearing makeup, makeup, makeup, makeup.
Guest:Art is dead.
Guest:So people think you're funny.
Guest:How do we get those people's money?
Guest:I said art is dead.
Guest:We're rolling in dough while Carlin rolls in.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:The show has got a budget, the show has got a budget, and all the poor people way more deserving of the money won't budge it, cause I wanted my name in lights, when I could've fed a family.
Guest:I'm a family of four for 40 fucking fortnites.
Guest:40 fucking fortnites.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:Please God forgive me.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:Please don't revere me.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:Please don't respect me.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:Feel free to correct me.
Guest:A self-centered artist.
Guest:Self-obsessed artist.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:I am an artist.
Guest:But I'm just a kid.
Guest:I'm just a kid.
Guest:I'm just a kid.
Guest:Kid.
Guest:And maybe I'll grow out of it.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:I hope you dug that.
Marc:See, the kid's all right, isn't he?
Marc:Please go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get yourself on the mailing list.
Marc:Get yourself some merch.
Marc:Get yourself an app.
Marc:Check out all the episodes we've done.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Do whatever you want over there.
Marc:Leave a few comments, but try not to be an asshole.
Marc:And yeah, this Thursday got Craig Finn from The Hold Steady.
Marc:Also Tony Clifton.
Marc:Went backstage during a rehearsal at the Comedy Store.
Marc:Got to talk to Mr. Clifton for about 15 minutes.
Marc:That'll also be a supplemental part of Thursday's show.
Marc:And what else?
Marc:It's a beautiful day.
Marc:It's a beautiful weekend.
Marc:Again, if you're taking this weekend to memorialize or to grieve or to put things into perspective around people you lost and
Marc:in any of the wars that have been fought here and other places.
Marc:My heart goes out to you.
Marc:Also, RIP, a stray feral kitty.
Marc:I did what I could.
Marc:Seemed to be the best thing to do.
Marc:But I'll remember you.
Marc:Where's my cat?
Marc:Boomer.
Marc:Hey, Boomy.
Marc:Anything?
you