Episode 276 - Wayne Coyne
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuckaholics?
Marc:What the fuckers in Phoenix?
Marc:You, specifically, right now, listen up.
Marc:Tonight, oh, by the way, I'm Marc Maron, if you're unclear what just came up in your head.
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:I will be performing in Phoenix tonight.
Marc:That's May 3rd at Stand Up Live for one show only.
Marc:Love to see you there.
Marc:Come on out.
Marc:I brought some merch.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I brought some merch and I'll sign things.
Marc:I'll give you some stickers and I'll put on a hell of a show.
Marc:I promise.
Marc:That aside, I am Mark Maron.
Marc:I already mentioned that.
Marc:Don't fast forward.
Marc:Just listen.
Marc:Just listen.
Marc:All right.
Marc:It's a big show today.
Marc:I'm about to call Bob Goldthwait about his new movie, God Bless America, which I thought was great.
Marc:Also in the show, later on, on this show, Mr. Wayne Coyne, the front man for the Flaming Lips.
Marc:Hell of a guy.
Marc:Sweet guy.
Marc:We had a great time.
Marc:Hung out in the hotel room in Oklahoma City.
Marc:I'm thrilled to be bringing you this interview.
Marc:Because it was, you know, I was a bit of a fan boy.
Marc:I got to be honest.
Marc:I was excited to meet him because he's done some great music.
Marc:And you just don't, you make assumptions about people.
Marc:And I tell you, we hit it off and we had a blast.
Marc:He's still texting me.
Marc:We text each other weird photographs.
Marc:Granted, his are weirder, but every once in a while, out of nowhere, Wayne Coyne will just see a text come up and it'll just be some weird death picture or mutilated hand or a giant rabbit with boobs.
Marc:Yeah, it's a very exciting relationship we have based on pictures, just texting back and forth.
Marc:That aside, I got a haircut and I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but it's a big fucking deal.
Marc:I'm kind of a girl.
Marc:Some of you have already assumed that.
Marc:And some girls are saying, what does that mean to be kind of a girl?
Marc:Maybe you're just a guy who has this thing that he does.
Marc:Well, look, I used to be really uptight about my hair.
Marc:I literally had one woman who could cut my hair and that was it.
Marc:And she's in New York and I would sort of build my haircuts around going to New York.
Marc:And sometimes if I didn't go to New York for months and months, my hair would become horrendous.
Marc:I'm too old to be walking around with long hair.
Marc:I have the I have weird gray curly sides that just stick out straight out.
Marc:And I have this top that's all straight and it just sort of sits on the sides.
Marc:So it kind of wings up.
Marc:And if I don't put gook in it to keep it tame, I just look like some sort of weird clown.
Marc:balancing something that landed on my head that looks like hair.
Marc:That's how I see myself.
Marc:A lot of gray.
Marc:The bushier the gray gets, the more crazy and weird and old professory I begin to look.
Marc:So I got it in my mind.
Marc:I'm going to get myself a short haircut.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:I've had short haircuts before, but I don't know how many men are like this, but I've gone through periods in my life where I hang a lot of my identity on my hair.
Marc:I guess everyone sort of does that, and you build relationships with
Marc:with hairdressers some guys are just like fuck it got the 12 cut at super cuts i've never been able to do that because i i don't feel like they pay the proper attention to my hair then i started to realize oh my god you know some hairdressers are like cult leaders or or perhaps acting teachers there's a similar vibe where you build up this weird dependency and you think they're the only ones that could possibly understand your specific and very special hair and
Marc:But but obviously, again, there's the fact that, well, that looks good.
Marc:But I had this hairdresser.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:Gabrielle in New York.
Marc:And she would cut my hair really short and be like, it's too fucking short.
Marc:And that would grow out perfectly.
Marc:And I'd be like, oh, my God, she has foresight.
Marc:She actually knew when she cut it really short that it would grow out exactly perfect.
Marc:She's a genius.
Marc:And I'm not saying she isn't.
Marc:I just don't fucking live in New York.
Marc:So I got in my mind I'm going to get one of these old-style razor cuts.
Marc:That's all I'm going to do.
Marc:I'm going to go to a men's haircutting place, and I'm just going to get one of those cuts.
Marc:Like, just fuck it.
Marc:Take the sides in a little.
Marc:Leave it a little long on top.
Marc:Knock yourself out.
Marc:Get those buzz clippers out.
Marc:Let's fucking do this.
Marc:But I had to build up a lot of courage to do that.
Marc:You know, I'm a fan of the straight shave.
Marc:And there are these places that, you know, would be called, I don't know if they're hipster or she-she or stupid.
Marc:But, you know, there are these straight shave joints that do the razor cut old style barbershops.
Marc:There's a joint here called Sweeney Todd's that my buddy Coop turned me on to.
Marc:And I've always been a little weird about that.
Marc:You know, okay, we're going to dress up like it's 1940.
Marc:We're going to have the old barber chairs.
Marc:We're going to do that business.
Marc:Yes, we're going to have some some dudes wearing the whites with the razors and the brushes and they make the nice smelling powder and all that stuff.
Marc:And I'm like, that's a little bit much.
Marc:But I got it in my mind.
Marc:I decided that somehow I shifted from this is a try to hard hipster joint to this place has integrity.
Marc:These guys know what they're doing.
Marc:I'm going to go there.
Marc:Barbershops for men.
Marc:That's what this is modeled after.
Marc:So I put my name on the board.
Marc:I was fourth.
Marc:And they're really playing it up.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:They're playing it up the whole scene.
Marc:You're not allowed to drink in there.
Marc:You can't have a coffee or something.
Marc:No drinks in the establishment.
Marc:And finally, this dude, Rudy, he cuts my hair.
Marc:He's a big dude, big, you know, heavyset Latino guy.
Marc:Everyone's got their hair slicked up in the old way, like from the 30s and 40s.
Marc:And I'm like, ah, it's a little effective.
Marc:But I want to have this experience.
Marc:I want a man's cut.
Marc:And I'm getting my hair cut.
Marc:He's buzzing away at it.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, I'm okay.
Marc:I can live with this.
Marc:I'm going to get a shave, too.
Marc:It's going to be nice.
Marc:And they're running a class joint, right?
Marc:Class joint.
Marc:Some guy puts his foot on the seating area and Rudy goes, could you not put your foot up there?
Marc:It's a classy joint.
Marc:I'm like, all right, this is all right.
Marc:So I'm getting my hair cut and it's working out.
Marc:I'm a little nervous, but I realized at this point in my life, thankfully, that my entire identity is not hinging on my hair.
Marc:I know in my heart, it will grow out if it sucks.
Marc:And I'm not getting a buzz cut, which I did once.
Marc:And I swear to God, I didn't know who I was for a month.
Marc:It was tragic.
Marc:That's how thin my sense of self was as a younger man.
Marc:I just said, I'm just going to go get with the punk rock buzz cut.
Marc:And I literally looked in the mirror and I was lost.
Marc:I didn't know who I was.
Marc:And I just thought that everybody else saw the same thing.
Marc:So I wandered through the streets like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't even know my name anymore.
Marc:They took my identity.
Marc:But those days are over.
Marc:But the weird thing was, is I'm sitting there and dudes were coming in and putting their names on the boards.
Marc:There was about four or five guys waiting.
Marc:And some guy, they're talking about hot rods and strippers.
Marc:But I don't know, is that the kind of conversation dudes had in barbershops in the 40s?
Marc:They're talking about car parts and...
Marc:hot rods and chopped vehicles and strippers.
Marc:And then some dude that was sitting on the chair just starts talking about his buddy who started talking about going down on women.
Marc:And then this guy started talking about his buddy had never gone down on a black girl before.
Marc:And when he did, he got an electrical shock in his mouth like a nine-volt battery.
Marc:And I'm thinking, really, are we talking about this?
Marc:And I'm just listening.
Marc:And everybody's chiming in.
Marc:And then they started talking about having sex when a woman's on their period.
Marc:And I'm like, is this really the 40s?
Marc:Would this have happened?
Marc:in the 40s and then you know there's there's blood involved and there's a story about a stripper who had a tampon in and i'm like holy shit what's going on in here is this the same place where i couldn't drink a cup of coffee you just yelled at a guy for putting his shoe on the fucking couch and now we're talking about strippers with tampons hanging out
Marc:I thought there was a double standard working there.
Marc:But needless to say, I got a great haircut and I dig it.
Marc:It's a haircut that I got to slick back and it's a haircut that should be manageable.
Marc:And I don't know what the moral of this story is.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:They probably were talking about that in the 40s.
Marc:What the hell else are you supposed to talk about at a barbershop while you're getting your hair buzzed by a razor?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Let's call Bobby Goldthwaite.
Marc:You know, I saw this movie.
Marc:I've talked to him before.
Marc:I'm very proud of him.
Marc:He makes the kind of movies he wants.
Marc:And this one is one of those, it's definitely a satire, but there's a lot of heart to it.
Marc:There's a lot of passion in it.
Marc:It's called God Bless America.
Marc:And I just wanted to give Bobcat a call and tell him I loved his movie.
Marc:Can we do that?
Marc:Let's get him on the phone here.
Marc:Hello.
Marc:Hey, is this Bob Goldthwait?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, yes, it is.
Guest:It is Bob Goldthwait.
Guest:Hi, Mark.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:I'm fine, man.
Marc:I'm glad that you knew it was me.
Marc:Did you see my number on your phone?
Marc:Come on, play along.
Marc:We're doing a bit.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Hello, stranger.
Marc:How are you, Bob?
Marc:It's Mark Maron.
Marc:Hey, how are you doing?
Marc:Big fan.
Marc:Well, thanks, man.
Marc:I'm a big fan of yours, too.
Marc:You know what's funny?
Guest:What?
Guest:I'm in New York doing press for my new movie, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was sitting there, and they have a junket, and they have a little...
Guest:group of reporters and they said um you know you you need to call mark maron and everybody was super impressed that was kind of cool like they're like you're gonna talk to mark maron for real isn't that cool are you serious yeah they were like really excited oh my god i'm gonna use that how i get out of anything i need now i have someone coming mark maron's on the phone oh man that's uh that made my whole day i you know i don't even know if we need to have this conversation that's all i needed to hear did you need to talk to me about something
Guest:Actually, you know, we don't have to plug my movie.
Guest:We can just talk about cats, something that we didn't really touch on that we're both, you know, because I listen to your show and you talk about the cats, but I don't even get to talk about my cats.
Marc:I could get a cat in here if it'd make you feel more comfortable.
Guest:I think a monkey could come by.
Guest:It'd be great.
Marc:Yeah, well, monkeys in the inside.
Marc:The best I can do is boomer or stray.
Marc:That's the best I can do in the garage.
Marc:So wait, now wait, I do want to talk to you about the movie because I saw the movie and it's not, you know, not common for me to actually, you know, do research or actually, you know, know about my guests particularly well.
Marc:But I did watch your movie and I fucking loved it.
Guest:Oh, awesome, man.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Thank you so much, man.
Guest:That means a lot.
Marc:A lot of blood and guts, man.
Marc:And it's hard to pull that much blood and guts off and still have it be funny and cutting.
Marc:It was some serious, raw-to-the-bone satire that you made there.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:And you know what's kind of funny is I don't even have an appetite for gore.
Guest:I actually get...
Marc:turned off a little bit freaked out but I had no problem shooting a baby in the opening of this new movie yeah I thought it was I thought it was great and the weird thing about it is somehow or another you've managed you know not unlike many of your movies that you create your own tone and yet somehow or another you know at the end of this this bloodbath I don't want to give too much away you still have sort of as an audience member you're still pretty emotionally invested in these characters yeah
Guest:Yeah, it is kind of, you know, if people do enjoy the movies that are making, that seems to be the thing that hopefully comes through, that you empathize with people that are going through horrible things or doing terrible things, you know?
Marc:Well, I think with this film, you know sort of midway through that we're not talking about something that's necessarily grounded in a reality that is possible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Uh, in the sense that like, Oh no, exactly.
Guest:I mean, this is not, you know, I consider all of them like little fables, but especially this one, like I was doing a Q and a, and the other night and this kid goes, Hey man, how come they don't get caught?
Guest:And I'm like, dude, it's not real.
Guest:And I also didn't want the movie to be like, I didn't want to cut back to a scene where Harvey Keitel was looking at a giant map going, I've got to get inside their brains.
Guest:I've got to figure out how they think.
Guest:What are they going to hit next?
Marc:You know, but the great thing about it, I mean, if people I don't know how much people have read about the movie, but it's it's really a kind of a road killer movie.
Marc:There's some the two people that are involved are not romantically involved.
Marc:They're not sexually involved, but they're bonded by something that is definitely emotional.
Marc:And it's sort of a riff on Badlands, isn't it?
Guest:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Badlands was one of them.
Guest:Yeah, that was a huge influence, that and the movie Network.
Guest:But, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, what's kind of funny is that I think we all, you know, you know, the two of them, you know, I always say that a good relationship is not based on liking the same things.
Guest:It's based on hating the same things, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And these two, it's not like it's a diatribe of people and things I dislike.
Right.
Guest:Because the girl in the movie just hates everything.
Guest:She's a 16-year-old girl.
Guest:It was up to her.
Guest:She would kill everybody, starting at NASCAR fans and stuff.
Guest:But some of the stuff, when they're talking back and forth, it's really just kind of nice to have somebody that listens to you.
Marc:Yeah, while you're killing people.
Guest:While you're out on the road killing people, yeah.
Guest:But I like to say that it's a very violent movie about kindness.
Marc:Well, I think that's a good way to describe it.
Marc:And the interesting thing about the main character is a guy who we're all familiar with.
Marc:He's a guy who's had enough.
Marc:And he's had enough of the things that those who will like this movie have had enough of.
Marc:And the sort of the trouble you go through to sort of, you know, capture, you know, how TV represents the never ending flow of bullshit and just complete moral bankruptcy that we all are flooded with on a day to day basis out of our television was really painstaking.
Marc:And it really paid off because that stuff can can fall short sometimes.
Marc:But I thought the way that you you satirized, you know, Fox News, American Idol.
Marc:and all of those shows that you chose as targets, you obviously liked it because, and you knew it looked good because you spent a lot of time doing it, and it paid off, I think.
Guest:Well, thanks.
Guest:And one of the things I was really kind of going after, hopefully, was ourselves, our own, all of us.
Guest:Why do we have this appetite for these distractions and not really deal with things on a...
Guest:on a, on a human level instead of, you know, I'm not telling people that they shouldn't watch reality shows or that every conversation should be super profound, but, but I am saying, you know, you know, why don't you just connect, you know, talent, you know, just connect with people, you know, that, that, that's what I think is missing.
Marc:And it wasn't essentially a political movie as much as it was just a, it's sort of an attack on bankrupt American culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's this culture of just being really nasty, you know, um,
Guest:You know, that's almost the product now, our nastiness, you know.
Guest:And I can't say that, you know, look, I'm guilty of it.
Guest:I just made a few years ago, I made a decision to try to not, not try not to, I actually stopped celebrity bashing in my act and things like that, just because...
Guest:Different things inspired the movie, you know, when people were being at the town hall meetings and people were just shouting or watching the president, you know, on the House floor being called a liar.
Guest:Look, I'm no George Bush fan, but if someone had done that to him, I would have been just as upset.
Guest:Like, where are we as people that our elected officials can't even act right, you know?
Guest:Have you got any flack?
Guest:Yeah, you know, but I have to say, it's only been from, like, really extreme kind of conservative side of things.
Marc:What was their, what did they say?
Guest:You know, it's liberal snuff porn.
Marc:Liberal snuff porn?
Marc:Are you going to use that as a blurb?
Guest:I should.
Guest:If you see one liberal snuff porn this year, make sure you see Bob Shred Goldfarb's God Bless America.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:I think, you know, but different things, too.
Guest:And then there's always the battle cry, you know, that this is going to inspire people.
Guest:And I'm like, well, if it inspires the message of the movie, it's to be nice.
Guest:So if it inspires people, that'd be great.
Guest:But, you know, the reality of it is that
Guest:You could take a healthy person and turn them into a killer by making a movie.
Guest:The military would be making a lot of movies.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You didn't upset Diablo Cody?
Guest:She was hurt.
Guest:And I have to say that just being mean for being mean, I'm not down with that.
Guest:I did write that line about Diablo because my daughters are really...
Guest:funny person, and whenever she says something funny, people go, you're like Juno.
Guest:And she's like, Dad, I want to stab them right in the fucking throat when they call me Juno.
Marc:So you did it for your kid.
Marc:So that's all right.
Guest:Well, it's a pretty rough one, and I heard her on your show, and after that I felt like kind of an asshole, to be honest.
Guest:I think that should cover it.
Marc:That should that should do.
Marc:Well, that's the weirdest thing.
Marc:And like you said, you don't you don't shit on celebrities anymore.
Marc:It's because like I've had an issue years ago with Adam Sandler where, you know, celebrities are part of the cultural fabric.
Marc:And if they're a big enough celebrity, you know, they're part of the culture.
Marc:So, you know, most people can just shit on them.
Marc:But, you know, when you're in their circle or you're a phone call away from them, then it's all of a sudden that guy, it's not like a celebrity.
Marc:So it makes it kind of tricky to do effective satire, you know, when it might come back at you at a dinner party.
Guest:Yeah, you know, Barry Krim is always like pounding me on that going, Goldberg, you got to pick your target a little better.
Guest:Sometimes I have a shotgun approach, but...
Guest:For the most part, I think the movie's about 90% responsible.
Marc:But was it satisfying to... I mean, I have to assume that some of the reason why you did this movie is so you could create this fairly lovable and sympathetic serial murderer of things that are annoying.
Marc:There had to be some party that's sort of like, I get to finally say it all.
Guest:Well, you know what's funny is, like, I can honestly say I wasn't sure what people were going to make of it, you know?
Guest:And when we watched the movie in the Toronto Film Festival and Frank, you know, Joel Murray, who does a really amazing job, started getting applause during these speeches, I got to tell you, I didn't expect that.
Guest:And I actually got super choked up.
Guest:But, you know, it just felt really nice.
Guest:It was one of the nicer kind of showbiz moments of my career.
Marc:Well, I loved it, man, and good luck with it.
Marc:I'm glad it's working out.
Guest:Well, thanks, man.
Guest:And I'm so happy you liked it.
Guest:It really meant a lot to me because I actually, of course, I'm a big fan, so thanks, man.
Marc:Well, thanks, Bob, and we'll talk about Cats another time.
Guest:Yeah, I'll have to introduce you to Madeline Perman and stuff.
Marc:All right, well, maybe we can, I don't know, is there such a thing as a cat dinner party?
Marc:If I can get mine into a box, I'll bring them to your house.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Guest:I'll tell you what, you can't get Detective Carla Whiskerson in a box.
Marc:Who the hell is that?
Marc:Am I supposed to know?
Guest:That's my cat.
Marc:That's your cat?
Guest:Yeah, Detective Carla Whisker says she thinks out of the box.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Thanks so much, Mark.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Marc:Talk to you later.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:Oh, it's good to talk to Bob.
Marc:Now, that's a sweet guy.
Marc:This is a sweet guy show.
Marc:Got Wayne Coyne in a minute.
Marc:Bob's a sweet guy.
Marc:Go see his movie if it's around by you.
Marc:It's bloody, but it's good.
Marc:Love talking to Bobby.
Thank you.
Marc:You have no boundaries.
Marc:A little light on boundaries.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But look, you're holding the iPhone.
Marc:We just tweeted a picture of us.
Guest:Oh, I should, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Are boundaries relevant anymore, Wayne?
Marc:I mean, are... Um, no.
Guest:But we do art and stuff, you know?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I'm glad in some professions, you know, that there are guidelines and standards, you know?
Guest:You fly a lot.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm glad there's standards, aren't you?
Guest:I wish they were stricter.
Marc:Yeah, I'm happy about rules.
Marc:I had a...
Marc:Especially in an airplane.
Marc:But I had that moment flying in here because I flew from L.A.
Marc:on a smaller plane.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then there's that moment where you're like, how do I know if that guy knows what he's doing?
Guest:Oh, don't even... That's not even talk about it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:Do you have that moment?
Guest:I think about it all the time, and then I think, oh, well... No, it's horrible.
Marc:You've got to trust somebody.
Guest:No, you're completely at the mercy of... No, every time I get in a plane, I think that's the same thing.
Guest:And it's not really funny, but it's part of...
Guest:I'm not, you know, I always say this, but I'm not a control freak.
Guest:No.
Guest:But, you know, there are times when you just, you do, you have to let go.
Guest:And I think it's wonderful to let go.
Guest:That's the moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've said that before.
Marc:I said that the moment you become spiritual is not when you're praying on an airplane, but it's when you realize you can't fly it.
Marc:Well, do you think about that?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah, it's horrible.
Guest:Like if the guy, let's say he's a great guy, but he has a heart attack.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then what do you do?
Marc:Well, I don't go that far with it.
Marc:Generally, what I do is when I'm sitting there going, we're fucked.
Marc:The plane is shaking.
Marc:I say, you know what?
Marc:You don't know anything about flying.
Marc:It's completely out of your control.
Guest:You're going to have to sit with that.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:No, exactly.
Guest:See, but I talk to pilots as much as I can.
Marc:really you go into the cockpit no i just mean like when i knock on the door no it's like i know i know a few and i've met some here and then i'm like yeah you know really should we worry when it's shaken and they're like no anything to worry about what i heard is that you got to worry i worry now about uh my my paranoid fantasy on airplanes now is another plane is going to hit the plane totally don't even i know don't even that's that's the one why why has this gotten in your mind
Marc:Because I've heard of some close calls lately.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And that's like, the image I have of dying on a plane is all of a sudden, the last thing I see is another plane.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think about that all the time.
Guest:I thought about just last night flying in, because it's cloudy, and there was an episode of Breaking Bad.
Guest:I don't watch Breaking Bad, but I heard about it, where one of the air traffic controllers...
Guest:has his daughter has has died and he's still he's still not yeah and then he's all stressed out and he doesn't do his job right right it's horrible yeah but what worst but what would be what would happen what would you see you know it's not like you just die instantly like oh yes boom well i i think like i think about that too that moment where it's like how much how much horror
Marc:is going to happen.
Marc:I mean, what do you mean?
Marc:What would you see?
Marc:You would just see, like, there would be this blast of shit, and then, like, you'd probably black out if you were lucky.
Marc:If you're lucky.
Guest:If you weren't, you'd be like, I'm falling!
Guest:Yeah, no, I think about that all the time, because why would you black out?
Guest:I mean, people jump out of parachutes and... You'd freak out?
Guest:I mean, I don't think shock would do it.
Guest:The wind would be sucked out of the... Well, hopefully that would happen, that the wind and everything, because you're going so fast that it would just...
Guest:Well, no, I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And hopefully it would just be, fuck!
Guest:And that's it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But that's the best you can hope for.
Guest:The worst you can hope for is like, oh, this is happening.
Guest:And it's still happening.
Guest:Well, I've been on just, you know, one plane was really bad where the engine went out.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:And they tell you, you know, that, hey, we've done this before and everything's going to be all right.
Guest:Oh, because you could tell the engine went out?
Guest:No, I felt it.
Guest:You did?
Guest:I felt it.
Guest:I was walking back to the bathroom and there was this little whoosh.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And the pilots didn't know, but the intercom was accidentally on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:And they were like, oh, no, I think the engine went out.
Guest:No, you did not.
Guest:I heard it.
Guest:No one else heard it, but I heard it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I came back and I said, do you hear that?
Guest:And everybody was like listening to their iPods and stuff and didn't hear anything.
Guest:And you're the only one who knows?
Guest:And then he came back on.
Guest:He said, well, we've had an engine failure.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:But we can fly perfectly fine on one engine.
Guest:And you think, well, what if the other one fails?
Guest:I mean, I thought we had two, and now we have one.
Guest:And it seems like they know what they're doing, but still you're at 40,000 feet, and it takes you 40 minutes to get down.
Marc:And the whole time you're like...
Guest:jesus it's always my assumption that like shit is just going to happen so quickly that you want to believe that but you probably might have some time depending where you're sitting no i mean you know you see you see how long it takes for a plane even even to fall yeah i mean you would be you'd know it's falling but you think about death a lot i think about it all the time but then you know but then it passes and you deal with it but i mean why wouldn't you well i know in those quiet moments it's like you know
Marc:you got that moment where you're like all right this is how i'm here i'm here i'm here and boom who the fuck knows but i mean i listened to i did uh i was like going over i was listening to your shit on the way here because i've listened to it over the years and i just was dumping a bunch of it into my head in preparation oh good all right nice all right and uh and it's amazing how often the the sort of the struggle with the acceptance of death as part of life is part of your rap man it is well i think those i've always said you know the
Guest:you write songs about things that you can't control really and so you know this is your way of fighting back or just or accepting it yourself or talking yourself into like you know it's gonna be all right because everything else is just you know you don't care it doesn't it doesn't occupy the the fear the fear spot in your head i try not to do the death thing that much
Guest:Well, no, but I mean, you know, as you get older, there's nothing you can do.
Guest:I'm 51.
Guest:I'm 48.
Guest:And you look in the mirror and you're just like, Oh my God.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's like, you see these, I see old people all the time.
Guest:I'm like those poor old fuckers, you know?
Guest:And then it's like, and then I'll, I'll forget.
Guest:Cause you feel the same.
Guest:I mean, to me, you know, it's like you turn 20 and that's just the way you feel till you die.
Guest:Your brain doesn't shake.
Guest:Your brain doesn't change.
Guest:It just loses some shit.
Guest:But you look in the mirror and you're like, Oh man, shit.
Guest:There's no stopping this thing.
Guest:No.
Guest:And sometimes it's cool.
Guest:Cause you're like, well, you know, I could be doing a lot worse or look at me, you know, I'm cool or whatever.
Guest:But other times you're just like, I don't know.
Guest:You know, it's coming.
Guest:I guess that's, that's the thing.
Guest:When you're young, it's such a, it's on such a distant horizon.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Marc:For real.
Marc:I mean, sometimes you'll panic about it, but you're probably not.
Marc:You're out of the woods until you hit about where we are.
Marc:And then it's like, it's just right over there.
Guest:Well, or you know guys that are younger than you that have heart attacks.
Marc:Kicking it.
Marc:I know some dudes that are dead.
Marc:Man, this is a great way.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:This is going to end.
Guest:This is funny.
Guest:Hey, this is funny.
Marc:It's going to end when it's all going to make sense.
Marc:Because I'm just having these same feelings where I lay in bed sometimes at night and I just hear myself breathing.
Marc:And I'm just laying there.
Marc:My girlfriend's snoring next to me.
Marc:And there's that moment where you're like, is this it?
Marc:This is it.
Marc:I mean, this is life.
Marc:I mean, this is what's happening right now.
Marc:And this is all there is.
Marc:And it could just go away.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:Now I'm getting a panic attack.
Guest:You are?
Guest:Because the way you start talking about it.
Guest:See, I try to psychically connect.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Which is good.
Guest:Then it's like, hey, if you're doing good, I'm doing good.
Guest:But then if you're freaking out.
Guest:I'm not freaking out at all.
Marc:Because even when I was listening to your music on the plane over here, there seems to be a very conscious integration of this whole flow of things.
Marc:You say it's out of your control, but you seem to be having some acceptance, at least poetically, of the situation at hand.
Guest:Well, I think, like I said, by singing about it, you kind of get something in your mind or in your life or in your way.
Guest:You're like, okay, you know.
Guest:Did you grow up here?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I wasn't born here, but I think my parents had me and then left out of Pittsburgh as quick as they could.
Guest:To come here.
Guest:To come here of all places, yeah.
Marc:What kind of, what was the business of the old man?
Guest:I think he was offered some kind of, he was going to be the manager of like an office thing, you know, where you go and install desks and all these things in office buildings and stuff.
Guest:And I don't think they had any idea what Oklahoma was like.
Guest:But I think they didn't like living around, they had a giant family, as people used to, you know, back in the day.
Guest:And they wanted to run away.
Guest:I think they were sick.
Guest:of their families yeah yeah there used to be a beauty to that like mom's just right down the street and then someone realized we can put mom further away well as soon as you get a car yeah no but i mean i for me i i love that idea of living around my brothers and my mother and all that sort of stuff but i think for them it was a way to say well we're not we can just do our own life which i think i have some of that in me as well sure as i get older you know my my mother and father they would never talk about it like that right they would always talk about just real matter of fact like
Guest:Well, we moved and that's where we lived.
Guest:We didn't think about it too much.
Guest:But me, I mean, I think about everything too much all the time.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And so, you know, after they had died, you are always left with these questions that can never be answered.
Guest:They both passed away?
Guest:Not at the same time, but I mean, little by little.
Guest:But then you can never know.
Marc:No, there's a lot of things I've been thinking about that with my father and with my mother who are both still with us that there are some things you'll never know even when they're alive.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because how do you ask them?
Guest:Well, I know.
Guest:Well, my mother would just say, she said, oh, I don't remember.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Like, what do you mean don't remember?
Marc:I think that's the gift of aging sometimes because I forget shit and maybe that's the way it's designed.
Marc:Some people think like it's sad that people forget.
Marc:There's some shit that I'm willing to let go, Wayne.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, see, I think for them, they never thought of it as being a significant, important thing like we would, you know, why would you leave?
Guest:And they were like, I don't know, we needed a job.
Guest:And then that just led to the next day.
Marc:But you ask questions about yourself, like, you know, why am I like this?
Marc:How come I got to track that thing down?
Guest:Well, I do all the time, but I try not to worry about it.
Guest:You can't worry about it.
Guest:You've got to accept that, too.
Marc:Like, I'm a freak, just like my dad.
Guest:But I mostly accept the good things.
Guest:I think, well, look at me.
Guest:I'm lucky.
Guest:I get to do this thing.
Guest:I get to make music, and that's my job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I get to make music and travel around and all the things that I like that I'm not responsible for.
Guest:I mean, sometimes I think about, like...
Guest:Why do you like the food that you like?
Guest:It's not like a choice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I just spent an hour and a half driving around everywhere to find a fucking barbecue place.
Marc:Did you go to Leo's?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:It is good.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You've been there?
Guest:I think I have over on 36th Street.
Guest:Do you eat meat?
Guest:You eat it?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I mean, I try not to eat as much red meat now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:See, because we're talking about being old, you know.
Guest:Yeah, go to the doctor.
Marc:We're going to get out.
Marc:We're pulling the plane up here.
Marc:This plane is not going to crash into us sitting here going, oh, fuck.
Marc:We're just a couple of old guys hanging on.
Guest:I think people don't realize how much that, but that it's, we're scared.
Guest:That's why we do music and you, you tell your ridiculous stories and stuff.
Guest:Cause it's like, yeah.
Marc:But otherwise it wouldn't be interesting if you just be walking around crying and screaming or that we wouldn't care about anything.
Guest:I mean, I love it when I run into people that are just like, man, I don't care.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't you wish you could be like them?
Guest:Sociopathic.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:There was some guys in the plane last night.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Just didn't give a fuck.
Guest:it just doesn't matter they know the plane's gonna it's not gonna crash because they're on it yeah you know i'm like dude that's not how it works but in their minds but this is their part of you that thinks like well if they know that then i guess i'm okay too because i do kind of but that's what i mean with this psychic connection you know if you're around if sometimes i think you're sitting around a bunch of people that are secretly fearing the same thing of course everyone you pick up on that we're just people
Guest:So I'm going to be around people like the dudes that were sitting around us last night.
Guest:They're partying.
Guest:They're having a good time.
Guest:They're talking about all the crazy shit they were doing.
Guest:And they don't even notice the plane took off.
Guest:And I'm like, I wish I was like that.
Marc:And you're like grabbing on.
Marc:Yeah, holding the fucking things.
Marc:I've gotten a little better, man.
Marc:And sometimes I pass out right when we take off.
Marc:I think it's the shift in oxygen.
Marc:Almost always, seconds before takeoff, I'm like...
Marc:And I usually wake up like two or three minutes later when we're just up.
Marc:You don't mean pass out.
Marc:You just mean like you doze off.
Marc:I fall asleep.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I think it has something to do, I just realized, with the change in compartment pressure.
Marc:But I fall asleep all the time.
Guest:you know that that but i don't stay asleep that happens to me it does right it does it's maybe it's stress or something i don't know but like right at takeoff you're just like boom yeah or like you've i don't know you're sitting there and it's like i think it's an air change you do maybe or maybe i don't even seem we have similar experience with flying
Guest:I mean, you think that would be the time that you would be just the most scared.
Guest:Freaked out.
Guest:And there'd be nothing, you know, that you would just be, oh my God.
Guest:But maybe that's what happens.
Marc:You just, it surrenders.
Marc:You go into such an intensified panic that it's time for the body to just give you a break.
Guest:No, I hate it because I try to fight it because I want to be awake to make sure if we're going to crash, what would you do?
Guest:You want to be awake for that.
Guest:Like, I'm going to help.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Do you really think you're going to help?
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:But it seems to be unaware, for me, to be unaware of what's going on is worse than being aware, even if it's a fiery death.
Marc:I think that's probably true.
Marc:But I think you might be a little bit of a control freak, Dan.
Guest:I wonder about that.
Marc:Are you?
Marc:Have you thought about that?
Marc:I tend to like I have to struggle with that.
Marc:You know, I think it all comes out of fear and you'd like your shit to be in place.
Marc:And the best way to really find out whether or not you're a control freak is how many women you've sent away.
Marc:Well, yeah, in the way that if you've had relationships where you've ruined them because of your jealousy or an inability to let them have their own space.
Marc:Has that happened to you?
Marc:Sure, but I think that's all control shit.
Marc:You mean like hundreds of women?
Marc:I've literally sent hundreds of women crying.
Guest:Then that's a good sign for me because I've been with my, I still call her my girlfriend, but I've been with her for 24 years.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Guest:So you seem to have control of that situation.
Guest:But see, maybe I'm a wimp.
Marc:Maybe I'm a wimpy control freak, and I just can't go through it.
Marc:No, I don't think you're a control freak.
Marc:I think that it's just fear.
Marc:And clearly, even that, that was the other thing I was realizing about the music, is that as beautiful the melody and as beautiful the chords, there always seems to be a rumble of chaos.
Guest:yeah yeah just beneath the surface yeah well and you know I mean we don't like music to be too just too pleasant you know I mean music can do that right music has a lot of ways of just doing the right thing right so I think we're always we're always hoping there's a little bit of you know agitation or
Marc:Well, so when you were like driving around, you got your driver's license, Oklahoma.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico right next door.
Guest:You did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:So I got my driver's license when I was 15.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you were driving around probably at 16.
Guest:I was driving a motorcycle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't have a car for the longest time.
Guest:How many kids in your family?
Guest:I have four brothers and a sister.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:A bunch of us.
Guest:Party all the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Older brothers, too.
Guest:Did drugs.
Guest:So you got all the records?
Guest:All the shit, yeah.
Marc:Oh, see, that's the gift, man.
Guest:That is totally... I know, it is.
Marc:Like, that's the gift when you're... Okay, so you're... And they're older brothers, so you're a little older than me, so you got the good records.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I mean, we grew up in the 60s with the Beatles and drugs and everything.
Guest:And then they had weird friends that played music and...
Guest:It was, I mean, it's the utopia.
Guest:When people talk about, you know, what was your life?
Guest:I'm like, dude, don't even ask because I had the life.
Marc:And you were in Oklahoma, so all this shit was being delivered like it was from another planet.
Marc:Well, we never thought that we were, see, when you're young, you don't know you're in Oklahoma.
Guest:You just think you're living.
Marc:But you weren't surrounded by the Haight-Ashbury.
Marc:So when shit came in, it was like, holy fuck, look at this.
Marc:Listen to this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's fucking great.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I think that, and I don't,
Guest:I try to remind people that when you're shaped, when you're like 11, 12, 13, and you're getting all that stuff, and it shapes you, I mean, man.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I speak about it now because I think the Statue of Limitations has to be over.
Guest:But I mean, I sold pot when I was 16 years old.
Guest:I mean, I knew so many people that were buying, you know, we were always buying weed and stuff.
Guest:That was back when they had seeds and stems.
Guest:Well, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You had to clean it on a record, on a cover of a record and just watch 900 seeds fall out of that reefer.
Guest:You totally did.
Guest:People loved it.
Guest:I mean, back then, when I was 16, I always thought it would just be legal.
Guest:You know, it was going to be legalized any minute now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And this was back in like 1977.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was 16 years old.
Marc:How crazy is it that it's still, I mean, some places it seems like it's... It's getting a little easier for people to claim that they have some sort of minor problem.
Yeah.
Marc:Do you smoke pot?
Marc:I've not done anything in 12 years, but I've certainly done my share.
Guest:Did you go too much and now you can't do any?
Marc:I did.
Marc:What happened was I was pretty much the buffet type of drug user, daily pot smoker, and then the other stuff.
Marc:It was the booze and the Coke that got a little gnarly.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:If I think about anything, I miss pot.
Marc:But my problem is once I feed something into the system, the system is like, well, doors are open, dude.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, all bets are off.
Marc:why are we sleeping no you know i talked to more and more guys you're probably the sixth guy that i know that is in the exact same boat it's like you can't do anything now yeah you can't even do a little bit because then that'll that'll break down like you have that hunger you know if you've got that thing that needs to be fed so what do you do what's your advice well i drink a lot of coffee i got nicotine lozenges i'm still pretty uh altered uh but it's it's well smoke you don't smoke cigarettes no no i don't you
Guest:i see i used to i used to i mean i loved it too oh god i love them but it you know it gets you that's one of the stupid ones though that one is so clearly stupid no no i i mean but it's so helpful i mean when you're young and i mean i you know when i was 22 uh you know you're driving around you're just so well you're scared of everything as we as your interview has has brought to a light i think i'm scared of everything yeah i wasn't scared of coming here no you shouldn't be
Guest:Which sparks right in.
Guest:I'm not scary.
Guest:But, you know, I think that must be why they give you the cigarette when you're in the firing squad.
Guest:Because it's like, otherwise, you just wouldn't want to stand there.
Guest:It stuffs all that fear, man.
Guest:You'd be like, fuck it.
Guest:You'd run away or just scream and cry.
Guest:Yeah, just give me something I can focus on.
Guest:But I think it's great to have...
Guest:I don't know, this addiction.
Guest:Everybody's addicted to stuff.
Guest:Everybody says, well, I'm an addictive personality.
Guest:It's like, well, yeah, you probably know that because you got addicted to stuff.
Guest:But I think I would be.
Guest:I mean, I've never tried heroin and some of the really bad ones.
Marc:Did you?
Marc:I snorted some heroin.
Marc:I smoked some heroin.
Marc:I was never a needle guy.
Guest:It didn't get you?
Marc:No, it didn't get me, thank God.
Marc:I like going up.
Guest:I don't like going down.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:When I tried the heroin, I smoked the heroin.
Marc:I got it.
Marc:I understood the high.
Marc:I didn't get, because I was smoking it and not banging it, I didn't get that thing where somehow or another it was like an elongated orgasm, thank God.
Marc:I didn't get that because I don't know how anyone could walk away from that.
Guest:Well, no, I know.
Marc:Yeah, but I did smoke and I did get the sort of like, okay, I can't keep my head up.
Marc:Is this good?
Marc:So I'm glad that question was there.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So yours was like cocaine?
Marc:I like cocaine.
Marc:I like smoking pot every day, all day.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Marc:Drinking and coke was good.
Marc:I like that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Some hallucinogens, but it was never completely my bag.
Guest:oh like acid and did some acid did some masculine did some mushrooms but not like i know dudes what's your experience with that i like mushrooms i haven't done very much of any of the any of that i don't the acids is too much for me i mean you never no one's gonna stop man it's like you're just sitting there it's like okay i think we're done nope i gotta sit down again
Marc:Things are talking that shouldn't be.
Guest:No, it's horrible.
Guest:And some people love it and just can go forever, but not me.
Guest:I mean, I wish, yeah, I wish it was like a 20-minute, 30-minute, maybe an hour or something.
Guest:Like, boom, condensed.
Marc:Some people smoke that shit.
Marc:What's that weird?
Marc:DM, yeah.
Guest:DMT.
Guest:That blasts you out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:no i was never if that was see that's scary it is yeah and i think that's the same with the heroin it's like that shit's scary you know all of a sudden you're in the you're in the mouth of a demon you can't get out of and with with with the acid it's like you just felt your whole you know fabric of self was disrupted oh dude don't i know it's like even you start getting that weird sweat you know
Guest:god damn interview's over god damn no i don't know i sometimes i i recently did um some music with um this uh kesha this popular yeah you know gal but when i walked in there i had a song um prepared she didn't i'd written part of a song that we were going to do and um i know she's a freak and she does all kinds of stuff and i said well here's the scenario is that she wanted to do a song about 2012 right the end of the world and all that and
Guest:So I said, well, I've prepared this song, and you have to sing it.
Guest:And even though the world's ending, you've just done a bunch of acid, so you don't care, and you're just partying and having a good time.
Marc:That's her character in the song?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I just assumed that's what she was like.
Guest:And so when I told her, she said, oh, my God, well, wait, you can't, because I haven't done the acid.
Guest:And I said, well, I thought you did all this stuff.
Guest:She's like, well, I do mushrooms and all that other stuff.
Guest:But my mother, when she was young, did too much acid and claims to this day she never came down.
Guest:Yeah, who wants that?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, but once she said that, she's like, but fuck it, I don't care.
Guest:She pointed to her assistant, just a normal gal, said, go get us some acid and we'll do some.
Guest:And then she can sing the song.
Guest:But I said, no, because I don't want to do any either.
Guest:You've got to run the night.
Guest:But what if she did and then she didn't come down?
Guest:Yeah, or whatever that is.
Marc:But I think that acid that they're talking about in the 60s, like the pure Owsley stuff.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I don't know if it's the acid that does the brain in or actually where the acid takes you.
Marc:It's not clear.
Marc:But there have been guys that you probably respect.
Marc:Sid Barrett, we lost him to that shit.
Guest:Well, right.
Guest:No, I know.
Marc:And then Peter Green from Freak and Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:No, there's even guys that I know that I kind of feel like, oh.
Marc:you know, tweaked them a little bit, but then you get people like Robert Crumb who, who didn't do much acid, but the one or two times he did, he saw those trails and then we got Mr. Natural.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, sometimes that thing will just, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad I did it.
Guest:Cause at least there's, did it change your, your thing?
Guest:I think it probably did, but I think what it, what it does is it, it,
Marc:it's that part of you that says i'm scared but i'm doing it anyway right and then once you do it you know it gets you gets you through something but yeah exactly yeah and but there were always those people that seem like those i was never the type of drug guy where like you talk to those dudes who are like yeah i did acid every day for a month oh totally yeah but no but no i just got a brain for it and they don't freak out yeah yeah no i know i had freaked out on uh acid
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you have.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Oh, like, did you kill somebody or?
Marc:No, I mean, freak fell into myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Marc:When you say it, you, you, you use good words to describe these things.
Marc:Like I remember one time I was in New York and I had some mushrooms and I fucking popped them in my apartment and it was at nighttime and I didn't have a guide.
Marc:I didn't have a friend.
Marc:It was just me thinking I could fucking handle that shit.
Marc:And I went outside.
Marc:I got a half a block away from my apartment and people got evil and I got, I went back and
Marc:And I spent the rest of the night in my apartment just surrounded by everything that was evil outside.
Marc:Because sometimes when you're on Mushrooms, man, or you're out, if you don't have a friend with you, man, people get real close and they're real sweaty.
Marc:You know, they're right here.
Marc:And there's that weird fine line between like, does this guy know he's the fucking devil?
Guest:Well, no, but see, that's the dilemma.
Guest:You get all that inner voice starts telling you every...
Guest:See, I think that's why I relate to you because that's what happens to me.
Guest:When it goes bad, I just think, oh, my God.
Marc:And then you don't know if you're seeing the truth or it's not the truth.
Marc:And then when you come down, you realize, oh, that couldn't have been the truth.
Marc:But it sort of still sticks with you a little bit.
Marc:And it takes a while to shake that shit.
Guest:Well, maybe the people that like it, maybe they're just more relaxed.
Guest:And it's the opposite for them.
Guest:They can have a good time.
Marc:yeah yeah yeah i mean the people that like somehow strap in like if your attitude going into hallucinogenics is like all right you ready here we go right as opposed to like what's gonna happen yes like if you're what's gonna happen dude you're fucked getting into the ship yeah yeah so well so how did you get so i mean how did you get so fucked up on the drugs you were doing well i just think well what happens i think but it wasn't those you you like like cocaine and stuff like yeah well that stuff well there's no benefit there's no winning that
Marc:well i mean you know that's i mean you don't win those things no one no one says like i finally got this cocaine thing right where i want it you know i mean no i i know i mean i i've done it i it's but then what's there not to like no of course not i mean it's wonderful but then there's the thing is it's like what's there not to like at three in the morning when you've already done uh an eight ball yeah and you're sitting there thinking something else could happen yeah
Marc:When it's just you and the guy you got the coke from and some guy you don't know who seems dangerous sitting there doing lines talking about your guitar.
Marc:Are you really living the dream?
Guest:Well, you've done it enough to know that that's really what's happening.
Guest:That's where you go.
Marc:go that's yeah yeah yeah sure like the beginning of the night the first two bumps when you're fucking king of the world and like everybody's you know anything could happen yeah yeah let's go do it yeah and then three in the morning when you're the last guy standing and you're still waiting for anything to happen nothing's gonna happen you're just gonna be in bed talking to yourself hoping you don't it is it's the talking
Guest:I think it's that people just love to... They just love to talk.
Guest:Yammering on the blow.
Guest:Not listening, but talking.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:About anything.
Marc:About a car, about an engine, about a guitar, about the food they can't eat right now.
Marc:But they're the only ones having a good time.
Marc:So how is it that you're the way you are and I can relate to you so much, but it seems like the world you've created around yourself is fairly provocative in terms of like out there.
Guest:Yeah, well, I think...
Guest:There's something associated with the sort of music we do people think you must do a lot of drugs and all this sort of stuff But to me, it's just it's just pure imagination, right?
Guest:I mean obviously we do drugs and things like that and I think we're just lucky that we get to play into that because everybody
Guest:musicians don't think that this, but a lot of people listen to music.
Guest:They just assume, oh, wow, you're out there.
Guest:That's why you create this kind of music.
Guest:But I'm not.
Marc:But you come from a psychedelic tradition.
Marc:I mean, at some point, you were very consciously doing that kind of music.
Guest:I didn't think about it in the beginning.
Guest:I mean, because like I said, with my older brothers and all that, this was just the music that we...
Guest:that we knew your guys like who are your uh well everything i mean growing up obviously with stuff like the beatles and pink floyd and then as i got older you know punk rock stuff happened right we'd go to all the punk rock shows and then we had our own group and then we would just go around and we'd you know just we'd meet everybody and play everywhere and what were some of the first concerts you saw i'd heard that were like holy shit
Guest:Well, the very first one I saw was Alice Cooper, which was bad because he had just gone, like, schlocky, you know?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then soon after that, I saw, like, The Who still in their really great— Out here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, in their great heyday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was fantastic, you know?
Guest:We saw things like Led Zeppelin and all the stuff.
Marc:They would all come here.
Marc:So because you had older brothers, they drag you out.
Guest:They totally did.
Marc:By the time I was in fucking high school, I mean, Zeppelin was like, are they going to do another record?
Marc:And then In Through the Outdoor came out.
Marc:And that was what I got.
Guest:yeah not as cool yeah no no and i didn't have older brothers yeah oh you were fucking yeah i totally was no and and so that's why i live the way i do because i realized wow you know i i never had a moment in my life where i didn't know what i wanted to do you know i was 10 years old i was like i want to be in a band have long hair and be a weirdo and do art and stuff yeah and everybody that was around me would would always encourage that play guitar and draw pictures and
Guest:You know, that's so great.
Guest:It is great.
Guest:And I'm still doing it.
Guest:Your folks, too, were into it?
Guest:Yeah, they weren't artists themselves.
Guest:But, I mean, I think they, especially after you have older, my brothers all were like criminals and did bad things.
Guest:So by the time they got to me.
Guest:Car theft, drugs, what?
Guest:Nothing too horrible.
Guest:They didn't kill anybody.
Guest:Right, you know.
Guest:They didn't want to have a job.
Guest:A lot of jail, yeah.
Guest:So by the time they got to me, and all I wanted to do was play guitar and draw pictures.
Guest:Yeah, like, look at him.
Guest:so even better for me finally yeah someone who's not going no i mean they loved every i don't want to make it seem like they didn't care for everybody but they thought maybe we won't have to bail out wayne right right yeah yeah and then i but then i think i really saw the other side of that that drug thing as well how it was a torture to them you know there was there was they had great times too i mean watching my older brothers and their friends right
Guest:But they had bad times.
Guest:Crack.
Guest:Oh, they wrestled with it.
Guest:And crystal meth.
Guest:Those are dirty.
Guest:Those, man.
Guest:You've got to be tough to get out of that.
Guest:And once you're in that.
Guest:Yeah, the crack thing.
Marc:I'm looking for Whitney Houston.
Marc:I just recently got this weird hair up my ass the last two days.
Marc:I just started thinking about, I mean, you've got to have this experience because you've created some songs that are transcendent.
Marc:And I think music is magic.
Marc:And I think, you know, it is.
Guest:Yeah, true.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, you know, no matter how you're going to judge whatever Whitney was dragged through in the media or whatever she dragged herself through or however fucked up that she got or however you want to judge her, that version of I will always love you is going to be transcendent as long as there is a way to play it on a fucking speaker.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So she delivered that.
Guest:Well, and it, and it, and people love that.
Guest:I mean, they love, love that.
Guest:And I was at the, I was at the Grammys the year that that song was like the biggest song of the year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You listen to a lot of songs.
Marc:Like I was listening to, I got shit on my iPod, like ride captain, ride upon your mystery ship.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:That was it, dude.
Marc:Who, where's that guy, man?
Marc:You know, it's funny.
Guest:I have thought that exact thing.
Marc:Rock on man.
Marc:Rock on.
Guest:Hey.
Guest:Well, that's David Essex.
Guest:Right.
Guest:One song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even know who the other guys are.
Guest:Ride, Captain, ride upon your mystery ship.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's like you know the song, but you don't even know.
Guest:I've thought that exact same thing.
Marc:Yeah, it's like that.
Marc:But see, I listened to that not too long ago.
Guest:I like it as a tune.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:So what I'm saying is that she did contribute that one thing.
Marc:Some people only got one song, and even if it's not theirs, what are you going to do?
Marc:Because I was listening to...
Guest:what was it the war against the mystics yeah yeah and uh there's a song on there that is definitely kind of you know it's got that kind of funky like almost prince kind of group oh cool it does totally yeah yeah i can i i can occasionally if i get the right melody with a falsetto yeah but i can't really sing that good like that but i mean but but the but the music too yeah totally yeah yeah well the group is great i mean they can they can play anything when you started though you were you were playing with your brother
Guest:My younger brother was with us for just the very beginning.
Guest:But, you know, we were doing it more out of just something chaotic to do.
Guest:It wasn't necessarily just about music.
Guest:I mean, I was into it for music and lifestyle and everything.
Guest:And I think he was into it mostly just like,
Guest:to do crazy shit, you know?
Guest:So I think the minute that we got, you know, to start thinking about what's to record and let's, you know, what are we gonna do to this music?
Guest:I think he just got bored with it.
Guest:He was just a singer just doing crazy shit.
Guest:And what instruments do you play?
Guest:I just play guitar.
Guest:But nowadays, you know, with computers,
Guest:There's so many things you can just do.
Marc:Yeah, and you're not afraid of the synthesizer.
Guest:I love all that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Those are my friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you don't have to know what you're doing, and they make great sounds.
Marc:For a while there, the synthesizer was instrument non grata.
Guest:Well, right.
Guest:Unless you're going to do it ironically.
Marc:The hipsters didn't like it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But now it's bad.
Guest:But they were wrong.
Guest:I mean, we always did.
Guest:I mean, I always loved that, especially like that Moog solo at the end of the Emerson Lake and Palmer song, Lucky Man.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I always loved it.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I would run into people occasionally that would have these mega weird synthesizers and you can just do anything with them.
Marc:Well, I talked to that dude, uh, Mercer, James Mercer from, uh, the shins.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I talked to him recently and you know, I asked him about synthesizers.
Marc:He's like,
Marc:You know how much work went into getting those things to make those sounds?
Guest:Well, right, yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's fucking genius.
Guest:And I'm like, all right.
Guest:No, but I always loved them.
Guest:But, dude, they kind of went out of vogue.
Guest:But you have a good time with it?
Guest:Is that basically how you start?
Guest:Well, but, I mean, I'm lucky because, I mean, we have like the weirdo punk rock side of us.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But we also have this really sophisticated musical side of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I always tell people it's easy to kind of be a noisy, freaky group.
Guest:I mean, that's not that hard to do.
Guest:I mean, to do it and be inspired all the time, I suppose.
Guest:But it is quite difficult to like this thing you're talking about where it's beautiful and it's emotional.
Guest:That takes some skill.
Marc:And also it seems like every one of your records is an honest record.
Marc:Like I noticed this just on the – well, obviously a few of the later records are legitimately concept records.
Marc:Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it also seems to me that even early on, probably about two or three records in, you were thinking in terms of the album, not just the song, right?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, we grew up with all that.
Guest:I mean, we'd put on— And that's a great thing.
Guest:Back in the day, you'd put on a record, and it would be four or five songs in a row.
Guest:Right, and it'd kind of connect.
Guest:You'd kind of go on a ride.
Guest:But I go both ways, even myself.
Guest:I like sometimes hearing a series of songs and it being like this little adventure.
Guest:And other times, I'll just put on one song.
Guest:And it can even be by the same group.
Guest:There's just no restrictions.
Guest:It's like, fuck it, I'm going to do what I like.
Guest:And that's, I mean, to me, when you really do run into someone, and that's why I wanted to even run into you, when you run into someone and that's what they're doing with their life, I'm like, I want to be with them.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:I want to know why are they doing it, how are they doing it?
Guest:So to listen to someone like a Frank Zappa...
Guest:Um, yeah, it's amazing.
Guest:Cause he's, he's, he's Frank Zappa.
Guest:I mean, you forget that that's, that's a big deal just to be, to create a, you know, your own entity.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's a lot of humor there too.
Guest:Well, maybe too much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was, it was nothing else but that, but I, you know, I love the way he played guitar.
Guest:And when I, when I saw him play, I mean, it was loud and it was, it was heavy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And a lot of, I think a lot of people will think he's, he's like jazzy or he's weird, but what I liked about it, I mean, it's like our music.
Guest:I like it to be like, Oh yeah.
Guest:It's intense.
Guest:And he really was.
Guest:So I think I was really lucky I got to see him do his thing.
Guest:But the second time I saw him, he would do these guitar solo things.
Guest:He'd trip off.
Guest:And I was sitting kind of up in the stadium a little bit.
Guest:Not stadium, like an arena, but I was sitting up a bit.
Guest:And there was a hippie on the floor playing with one of these little glow-in-the-dark little things.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, those little baton things or whatever.
Marc:Yeah, the glow stick.
Guest:Yeah, glow stick.
Guest:And Frank Zappa was playing a solo.
Guest:And I saw this dude throw it.
Guest:And it bombed Frank Zappa right in the chest.
Guest:Boom.
Guest:Like he was hypnotized by his guitar solo and suddenly, bam.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and he stopped the whole show no shit you know and he got his bodyguard i'd seen his bodyguard at the other show just this real pissed off looking giant black dude old guy and i saw him because i was up a bit i i saw him pointed the dude he's like go get that dude and they went and got the dude i mean you got to think if you were standing next to the guy and you knew he did it if the bodyguard said who did it would you go
Guest:He did it, man.
Guest:I wouldn't say anything.
Guest:You wouldn't rat him out?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who cares?
Marc:It's a little thing.
Marc:It depends on how high you are at that moment.
Guest:Well, I know how scared you are.
Guest:I guess moral integrity has something to do with it.
Guest:Or maybe you really felt like Frank got... But for me, it felt...
Guest:Like too severe of a punishment.
Guest:He had him thrown out or what did he do?
Guest:Did they bring him up on stage and hit him?
Guest:No, it just looked like we're going to take him out back and kick his face in or something.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But why would it even matter?
Guest:Yeah, it's like get past it.
Marc:So is this what provoked you to have as much shit as possible on stage at all times?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, I think about that.
Guest:Because I'm like, we played a show at the Hollywood Bowl where we gave out 10,000 of these little things.
Guest:You did?
Guest:We gave them to everybody.
Guest:And at some point during the show, you know, they're throwing them at you anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when you're not ready for it, you know, if you get hit in the face, it can kind of piss you off, you know?
Guest:At some point, I just said, all right, come on, motherfuckers, let's go.
Guest:Everybody, just throw them at us.
Guest:And we were doing this song.
Guest:But that's the secret.
Guest:See, the secret is if you know they're coming, they can hit you all over the place and you don't care.
Guest:It's a celebration.
Guest:It's the surprise.
Guest:So I was just trying to get it all out of the way.
Guest:Plus, it just looks great that you're thinking.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's raining glow sticks.
Guest:It's raining.
Marc:And also, you're kind of exercising that demon that Frank Zappa unleashed.
Guest:Well, but I thought, why did it matter to him so much?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, there was some bad blood in the frequency.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like I just thought it was overreacting.
Marc:But that's funny that it led to such a profound part of your stage show.
Guest:Well, now, yeah, we just we bring it on.
Guest:You could not do anything that would that would, you know, set the Flaming Lips off of their focus.
Guest:We are here to play.
Marc:entertainment and that last tour that was really that hollywood bowl show was sort of infamous and huge but the whole all the appearances were big shows and they were we try to make it sort of seem like every night is like a giant new year's eve celebration if you're with us this is the greatest party you know you can that's the plan yeah when did you choose the uh the white suit
Guest:Well, in the beginning, it was based on this picture that I'd seen of Miles Davis, where he was standing outside.
Guest:I know that one with the black shirt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, no, he's he's been he's been hitting the head.
Guest:He's bleeding.
Guest:Oh, that's not the one.
Guest:And then the blood, because, you know, you can't tell because he's dark skin, but it's black and white photo.
Guest:But on his white suit, you can see the blood spatter.
Guest:And so I was doing this thing where during a song, even a song that we were rehearsing today, where I would pour blood on my head.
Guest:And I was kind of wanting everybody to see it.
Guest:Because they can't really tell.
Guest:So I thought, well, if I wear this white suit, if I pour this blood on my head, everybody will see it and there'll be some dramatic thing.
Guest:So it's really all based on just being a show-off.
Guest:That's what it was.
Marc:The Miles Davis picture provoked that somehow?
Guest:Yeah, because I thought, well, that's how you can see the blood.
Guest:Otherwise, if he was wearing a dark suit,
Guest:so there's no there's no show right but it's so funny that it has a that like miles as a thing and to himself represents this whole other thing but actually the inspiration for the white suit had nothing to do with miles davis not necessarily but it's but no but for me it was you know here's this guy and he's like understated and he's dignified and it's and it's mystical you know he's badass you know and and then it to be sort of the contrast of this the brutality and the blood and all that
Guest:You know, it was cool.
Guest:But it was mostly just to look cool, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think there's something in... I mean, sometimes, you know, we're doing our music and you don't really know what it is you're gonna sing about or be about or whatever.
Guest:And sometimes I think we just get lucky that that prevails.
Marc:But there's weird themes.
Guest:there is we talk about insects and but universal struggle yeah well sure yeah but early in the music it's there yeah yeah it's this weird kind of like there's a kind of like um sensitive hero uh you know yeah yeah but i don't think we're necessarily always responsible for it i mean sometimes you know with music and lyrics and melodies you get to sing about something even though you don't really know what the fuck you're saying you write most of the lyrics yeah yeah yeah but sometimes you just get lucky
Guest:I mean, we were rehearsing over there before I came over here, and there's a lyric that we do at the end of one of our songs on the soft bulletin where it says, the sound they made was love.
Guest:And it's the culmination of this song that's all about this reaching and this emotion and how it's called a spoonful weighs a ton, but it means these little things that people do can just mean the world to you.
Guest:And I didn't even know what I was going to sing.
Guest:i thought the song seems like the song is really going well but i don't know the last fucking word of the song and i've made all these rhymes with the sun yeah and a ton yeah and there's all these things and i don't know what i'm gonna sing right and i and and when i'm recording it i still know i don't know what yeah i don't know the punch line right you must do that sometimes i don't know where this is going i have to wait till it's delivered
Marc:You can only wait till it's delivered.
Guest:And then I sang the sound they made was love.
Guest:And it's like, it's the perfect lyric.
Marc:It was delivered.
Guest:As if I knew exactly.
Guest:And I know when I did it, I didn't know what I was going to say.
Guest:It happens all the time creatively.
Guest:So when people say, wow, that's a great song you wrote, I was like, the best part of it is just a connection of panic because I didn't know what I was going to say.
Guest:And then the minute you say it, you're like, well, that's perfect.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's a discovery.
Marc:Because I work that way, too.
Marc:I improvise on stage until it comes together.
Marc:And I've had jokes take years to really unfold.
Marc:I have enough of it that it's funny.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:But then the conversation continues.
Marc:And then one night...
Marc:Like whether you're writing a song or whether you're singing or whether you're on stage, you know, if your mind is open and you're talking and you're doing the same thing you've done, you know, and it's the 10th or 20th or 500th time you did it.
Marc:And that one night you find that opening and you say that one next thing and you're like, holy shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's done.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But it is.
Guest:It's about like you're talking and you're almost talking and thinking in the same moment.
Marc:That's the greatest thing.
Marc:Because you can't explain why.
Marc:Because some people are very meticulous.
Marc:They sit there.
Marc:They craft a song or they craft a joke or they write a story or a poem.
Marc:and you know they're they're they're it's it's sometimes it's like a math equation yeah yeah but other times it's just a complete mystery and you have no idea where that came from it may not even been something you would say ever before well no but see that's what i mean once you say it you can act like oh well of course yes i say that it's a great thing to say yeah of course
Guest:And that's what happens is like you start becoming your, your songs or the things, the meaning behind it starts to be, you know, but yeah.
Guest:So I don't, I don't always feel like I don't see this goes back to, I don't want to control it.
Guest:You know, there's a part of it.
Marc:I think that's what you were saying before is right.
Marc:That what comes out of fear is you find, you know, within your craft, this freedom.
Marc:And there's no fear there.
Guest:Well, there you go.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because what's the worst that could happen?
Guest:So you write a dumb song.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:Or the joke isn't funny.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We'll do another one.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You take the hit, but you know, you get past it.
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:You're not in a crashing plane.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:It's just in the middle of a bad song.
Guest:There's not a real tragedy.
Guest:Nothing bad is really going to happen.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:but embarrassment is is great it's great humility yeah yeah it's good to be handed your ass totally uh several times throughout your life yeah totally if you've never handed your ass no one's gonna like you well no or you don't get to sing or talk about anything you know when you talk to people who don't really know the depths and the smell of shit the depths of how bad it can really be
Guest:No, I mean, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, to me, you know, to be embarrassed and to, you know, to fail at what we're doing is that's what makes you.
Marc:What was what's been your in your mind?
Marc:What experience you go back to when you think that?
Marc:Was it starting out?
Marc:Was it playing small clubs?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:It still happens all the time.
Guest:It's like you think we're going to go and play and people are going to love us.
Guest:And you're there.
Guest:And absolutely nobody shows up.
Guest:That happens to you?
Guest:Well, not so much now.
Guest:I mean, we don't go unless some people are going to show up.
Guest:But we were at a conference just the other night where it's late at night and the audience just doesn't care anymore.
Guest:And there's still a couple of groups.
Guest:I mean, we weren't playing.
Guest:I was in the audience.
Yeah.
Guest:But they still have to go up there and play.
Guest:And there's nobody, absolutely nobody there that even cares.
Guest:I mean, that's a crusher.
Guest:And of course we did that.
Guest:We've done that plenty of times early on.
Guest:What do you do?
Guest:I mean, have you ever showed up where there's like one person?
Marc:I've done shows for two people.
Marc:And you still just is it is it that you feel like, OK, well, this is well, you know, it's a little different than what I do, because like I've always envied musicians in the fact that even if the worst case scenario, you guys still got each other and you can still say, well, this sucks.
Marc:But let's let's let's look at it as a rehearsal or let's play our fucking songs.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, when you're on stage and there's literally two people to maybe 12 people in the audience, there's no fourth wall anymore.
Marc:This isn't a show.
Marc:If I was to stand up in front of two to 10 people and pretend like I'm just doing a show, that would make me delusional.
Marc:It would make me horrified.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You mean like the musicians can do that because you just play and it's like…
Marc:protected by the song in a way.
Marc:You know, that's a boundary.
Marc:But you know, if I'm standing there with two people and I don't acknowledge it, they're going to think like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy?
Marc:So I mean, usually what I learned from those things is a way to create intimacy because I can't help myself.
Marc:You know, I'm not going to get on stage and pretend like it doesn't suck.
Marc:Well, right.
Marc:So then all of a sudden the audience in you becomes a very organic thing.
Guest:I mean, do you just go out and say, well, look at this?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll tell some stories and riff a little bit.
Marc:Well, that would almost be better than a normal show.
Marc:I try to do that every show.
Marc:You know, you just hit or miss.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Get out there on the ice and you see what happens.
Guest:So as you go through your shows, are you doing a routine?
Marc:Is part of it a routine?
Marc:Well, over the 20 years, 25 years that I've done this, I somehow managed to accumulate
Marc:At any given point in time, I'm working on a certain set list as a parameter, as a framework.
Marc:And the best thing that can happen within those hours is that something else happens, that we start moving towards the next one.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Marc:You do something long enough.
Marc:It's like songs.
Marc:After a certain point, your big hits are going to be like cancer to you.
Guest:No.
Guest:See, I disagree.
Guest:For me, it's not like that.
Guest:For me, the fact that people like it at all.
Guest:It's kind of like we look at it like a McDonald's hamburger.
Guest:Don't fuck with that.
Guest:You know, you know what you like.
Marc:And if we deliver, I think that's a difference, you know, music and comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, yeah, like I can listen to a song over and over again and then I can put it away and then I'll go back to it.
Marc:Like if people felt the same way they did about music as they do about comedy, no one would ever buy another Beatles record.
Guest:Well, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:Once you hear the joke, how many times can you really hear the joke?
Guest:Well, I agree.
Guest:Well, that's why I'm asking you.
Marc:So it has to be an evolving experience for me.
Marc:I just look at all of my material as an ongoing conversation.
Guest:But do people come with this idea that they're going to hear some of the hits?
Marc:Well, I never know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like now, well, now because of the podcast, I've got a lot of bigger audience and they know me very well because I talk very candidly.
Marc:It's not all jokes.
Marc:So a lot of them don't have never seen me do comedy or seen a comedy show.
Marc:So they kind of wonder if I can do it.
Marc:And then some of the stuff I talk about, if you talk to people, you know, openly twice a week, they're going to know a lot about you.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So they're entering the dialogue sort of like, oh, yeah, I've heard him kind of talk about this.
Marc:So I have to deal with that.
Marc:But then if you go back to my first record, there are some people that have never heard that shit.
Marc:And and sometimes it's a stretch for me.
Marc:Some guy requested a joke that I did 20 years ago.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And and I literally said, all right, let's I'm going to try to do that because I know the groove is there.
Marc:I just got to find where to drop the needle.
Marc:You know, like I know I'd said that joke hundreds of times before, but I couldn't remember.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I hadn't had it up.
Guest:Well, the nuances.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't out and I wasn't running it around.
Guest:I wasn't driving it.
Guest:But is that a relief to you some nights where, you know, I know this is going to work.
Guest:And, you know, because some nights when we play, there's a lot of calamities and it isn't easy.
Marc:Do you know them?
Guest:Or did the audience know there's a calamity?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Well, probably not.
Guest:You know, but to you, it's hard to focus or you can think this doesn't sound right, but they don't know that.
Guest:And, you know, it's all a little bit of a charade.
Guest:It's always happening.
Guest:And yet, you know, if we just do what the map said to do, it'll probably be great.
Guest:But when you're up there doing a joke that you know, OK, this is how it goes.
Guest:And yet you're slightly removed or distracted.
Guest:Does that happen to you?
Marc:yeah you know it's like you just eventually get an innate sense of an audience i mean probably with comedy more than music i would think that there there is this weird kind of sensibility you have to have pretty quickly i mean i think because with music your primary concerns are like how are we going to make it sound good in this room right right and you know what i mean because there's so many things in between your guitar and your pick
Marc:and it being delivered into the head, that it must be a little difficult.
Marc:Obviously, we know when a crowd is with you.
Marc:But with comedy, from second to second, you can feel where they are based on their engagement, their laughter.
Marc:So if I'm feeling detached or I'm feeling like I'm losing them, not intellectually, but just momentum-wise, you lean into it.
Guest:It's a weird thing because you can really feel that.
Guest:I can tell when... There'd be no scientific measurement that you could say, but you can just tell when everybody's with you.
Guest:Isn't that a weird thing?
Guest:And they're not always with you.
Guest:And even though they're not with you some nights, people still think it's great.
Guest:But when they're with you, it's like, wow.
Marc:You don't even know what to do with that joy.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:And it makes you think, we really know what we're doing.
Guest:But we don't.
Guest:Because you know it's happening.
Guest:You're like, oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah, you should realize that.
Marc:I've just been feeling that a little now.
Marc:Because it's taken me really this long to have fans that will come out to see me.
Marc:Most of my career, I've played for a handful of my fans.
Marc:And a good two-thirds of the room are just people who are like, it's comedy.
Marc:They have their own sense of just going to the club.
Marc:So now all of a sudden, it so happens to be a turning point for me where I'm able to accept some of that love before I would fight it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Why?
Guest:But no, I feel the same way.
Guest:There was a point where you don't want to accept it as love because you think, well, they don't really love us.
Guest:But when we go into a room now where everyone there knows every word, all your songs, and everything that you've done, that's... It's amazing.
Marc:It's hard to be.
Marc:Well, I think that the turning point is it's something interesting that my girlfriend said to me recently, and I think it's really the crux of it is...
Marc:You know, like I do this thing, you know, how we how we want to get love from people is relative to how we feel about ourselves.
Marc:Like I do this thing with my girlfriend, Rob.
Marc:I'm like, you don't love me.
Marc:You don't really love me.
Marc:And she just looked at me.
Marc:She said, don't say I don't love you because you don't love you.
Marc:But, you know, in that moment where you're saying they don't really like us or, you know, they don't know us.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's you saying you're not letting them love you for some fucking reason.
Guest:Well, but see, once you think that they're loving you, you want to love them back.
Guest:Well, isn't that what your music does?
Guest:Well, I think that's really what you want.
Guest:You want to love them.
Guest:I mean, to me, that's probably the main thing, is that you want to love them.
Guest:So when they love your music and they love what you're saying, because that's where the joy is, that you get to love them.
Guest:It isn't that they love you.
Guest:It's that you love them.
Guest:So when they walk up to you later and say you were great...
Guest:it is great to you to meet them yeah for them to say you're right otherwise it would just be horrible to every night go out there and yeah i hate these fuckers but i got that would not be a way to live some people show people do that all they must but i wouldn't if i really didn't love them i wouldn't want to be around them and and and provoke them to come talk to us and meet me so so for me that changed everything for me when i sort of felt like i can love them
Guest:And I want them to get as much out of this as they can and to absorb as much of what I'm about, even if it's not what I intended or whatever.
Guest:But to me, that changed everything.
Guest:So I feel like I'm very lucky.
Guest:Well, that's great.
Guest:When a guy came to the door today, as they do, they'll probably come to your door.
Guest:People come to your door and say, hey, I just want to meet you.
Marc:Yeah, it happens.
Marc:I mean, not at the house so much, but people have a very defined relationship with me.
Marc:and i don't know them right right but they know you sure yeah sure so it's it's a delicate thing to be gracious and and and but also to respect the fact that that is one-sided and you know i i want to be there for this person in this moment but there's no way i'm going to have the time to get to know them like they know me right i mean i usually you know i'll just do the couple of questions right off the bat is like have you come to kill me yeah that's good it's a good opener yeah
Guest:And if I kind of feel like if they were, that would, you know, they'd kind of stumble or, you know, if I asked, you know, trick them a little bit here and there.
Guest:So that's usually what I do.
Marc:Well, that's a, that's about to, you don't have boundaries either.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that's the way we started this conversation because like most people, most people in the position that you're in, uh, would have somebody to filter that shit.
Marc:You know, out of fear and personal safety.
Marc:It's too much trouble.
Guest:I mean, see, I've learned the other way.
Marc:No, but you want to connect.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're willing to gamble.
Guest:For me, it's interesting, though.
Guest:Here they are.
Guest:And maybe they're, I mean, I don't really know their story.
Guest:To me, you know, if they're willing to come all this way.
Marc:right you know and stand here sure how humiliating that would be for them you know you can't be a dick no but you still don't you still you're hedging your bets that they're you don't know what they're gonna i kind of feel like they're the ones that are nervous and i'm that's always true yeah but you know but okay i'm not so for me it's fun i mean for me for me it's fun too but i don't want to plant the seed in either of our heads where there's that one dude that's decided that i am somehow you know operating against the universal scheme of things that they've decided for themselves but see i
Guest:I think if they really think about it, I'd probably have a gun on me too.
Guest:If they tried to shoot me, I could duck and just shoot them back.
Guest:You don't have a gun on you?
Guest:I don't, but I have a secret bodyguard everywhere I go.
Guest:And if something happened, they would just jump out.
Guest:He's right here.
Guest:He's not so secret.
Guest:He's not even secret.
Guest:I think I'd come here by myself.
Marc:It was this Marin guy you set me up with.
Guest:Let's rob him.
Guest:Yeah, that'd be hilarious.
Marc:That would be the best thing in the world if you came over here and stole my shit.
Guest:And I beat you up and took your computer.
Marc:And I tweeted that.
Marc:All I had was my iPhone.
Marc:Wayne Coyne, at Wayne Coyne, just kicked my ass and took my tape recorder.
Guest:And I would just deny it.
Guest:It would just be a battle of Twitter lies.
Guest:No, dude.
Guest:No, he was a fake.
Marc:So you don't have any kind of... I mean, getting back to that audience thing, I can tell when there's...
Marc:like a bad element in the room yeah yeah yeah like you know i walk into a room and i hear how i just see how they're sitting and then there's that one table of fucking people that aren't about what i'm about yeah i'm not sure what they're doing here yeah they might be here to hear the one song yeah or they might be here because it's a party and they heard they saw it in the paper well and you know and it's easy for them to get attention and throw you off your thing yeah yeah i mean for us
Guest:you know i mean we played such volume right yeah yeah like look you know we can just obliterate you yeah but sometimes you have to acknowledge it so the audience can get past it too oh no you gotta shut them down just to yeah yeah and unless you say dude look you know what's what's the beef or look i'm with you here yeah you know yeah what's your i'll help you get through this moment you know so sometimes i think it's almost better just to just to acknowledge it and and you know move on well do you have
Marc:those fans were like you know i talked to musicians about this when i when i get to talk to them that you know um do you realize obviously it's a huge song yeah yeah yeah it's great it's great and um but but like before that yeah i mean you've done what five albums yeah yeah so so then this blasts off and you got a hit song you got two hit songs now but but do you have people that are just sort of like play this song
Guest:they do but you know it they're i don't really give them more power than all the other love that's going there you know but i do acknowledge that sometimes we'll play the song and then two songs later they're like play the song we're like dude we just played it like i don't know how fucked up you are but we just played it you know we just played it but i'll be at shows all the time where people do
Guest:that and i think it's funny i mean when i'm in the audience then it happens i'm not that affected by like oh my god what should we do i'm like oh fuck it it's their show they'll deal with it right and i don't think about it too much so i sort of feel like that's probably how a lot of people in our audience are they're having a good time and some some asshole isn't going to derail it for them i think that's the power that they have anyway is that they're they're coming to this thing already like you know no one's going to make this bad for me i'm the one's going to make it good for me right some asshole isn't going to take it away from yeah of course yeah yeah yeah and yeah
Marc:Yeah, and there's also that moment where you're like, well, I'm probably not going to be able to make that person happy.
Guest:Yeah, but sometimes I, you know, it's not a good thing, but sometimes you get used to it all working.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it flows and you sort of, you take it and it's great.
Guest:But occasionally it's great to know that you're fighting against the pricks.
Guest:I love that too.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Where you just kind of buckle in like, fuck it.
Guest:Occasionally I'll look the guy right in the face like, all right, motherfucker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm not going to hit them and I'm not going to attack them, but I'm just like, it lets you just go into another dimension of.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a lot of things you get to do up there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Spite's a good driver.
Guest:It's wonderful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, back when we went in the early days, you know, we'd open up for groups.
Guest:We opened up for tool.
Guest:Tool as a group.
Guest:That's a hard bunch.
Guest:Well, as a group, they really liked us and our music, but their audience didn't.
Guest:You guys are too soft.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Or they just didn't even know who you were, and that was already enough reason to despise us.
Guest:So the minute we would go up there, you'd just be like, fuck.
Guest:this and if there was something to throw you know a shoe or we'd play some places we'd play outside they'd throw cups full of sand you know but sometimes that would be almost even more energetic than people that love you because yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i'll show you what rock and roll is so you gotta find a lot of ways to make that's that's the humility element of it all um it's wonderful so did you know when you wrote that song though that it would be as huge as
Marc:Well, no, it's such a beautiful song and it's one of them songs where it's sort of like, you know, we are going to die.
Marc:This is sweet.
Guest:Yeah, no, exactly.
Guest:I think that line when I would play it, you know, played initially for for Stephen and then when we played for, you know, other people, it would be that line would be this kind of.
Guest:You know, the culmination of what the Flaming Lips, you know, at their purest and best is purity, like you talked about earlier.
Guest:Only Wayne would say something like that.
Guest:And it's not true, but it's the sort of lyric that sung in the right way sounds like wisdom and complete innocence at the same time.
Guest:Something, but that's just music.
Guest:I mean, music does most of the work for you.
Guest:And then I get to stand there and look like the cool dude.
Guest:But when you had it in your hand.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:At the time, it was just really just another little song.
Guest:Part of that record, yeah.
Guest:And I thought it was cool, but I didn't, you know, it's probably like the way you do things.
Guest:There's a moment where you're in love with this thing you're doing, and then you do it, and then you're in love with the next thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's like, okay, that's cool.
Guest:How do you have to?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Otherwise, you'd just sit there on one song forever, you know?
Guest:But no, I mean, once we did it,
Guest:um everybody would immediately respond oh wow what a great hit that's going to be and you're like yeah whatever you know and then you know after after it happens and after it's you know gone on for so many years and people use it in commercials and all sorts of things you know except like of course it's a great song sure of course and you know you don't think about it you know
Guest:And people will... Almost every show, you know, there'll be... Different people will come up.
Guest:Someone would have used it at a funeral for their parents.
Guest:Or a wedding, right?
Guest:Or a wedding.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I saw it at an anniversary party.
Guest:Or at, like, the birth of their kids, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's one of those...
Guest:you know it can be about any of these that's a circle of life song yeah totally yeah yeah that you would never want to purposely write you know for me those are though you know if you think you're going to write the big epic wedding song whatever you'd never get it no but dude but to write a song that someone can play at a wedding and equally as effective as a funeral no it's that's a fucking that is the biggest compliment you can yeah yeah you hit the magic number no i know and then i'm with those people yeah
Guest:It's like your parents aren't going to die once.
Guest:And if that's the song that you associate with it, I'm with them.
Guest:And that's what I mean about the love.
Guest:When someone comes up and says something like that, you just, wow, we're connected.
Guest:You've put me into your life with this little song of mine.
Guest:And that song is true to me.
Guest:It isn't like I'm not like that.
Guest:I'm not just like that.
Guest:But a lot of me is like that song.
Guest:So I think it's a great world.
Guest:you know to go around and if people know me through my music what a great I mean that's the greatest compliment your art can have is that they know you through the dumb shit you say yeah I think that's a good place to end excellent thanks Wayne well thanks for having me now let's beat him up okay
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:God, I love that guy.
Marc:I'm going to text him a picture right now.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Look out.
Marc:I almost shit my pants.
Marc:I didn't, though.
Marc:Maybe I need another sip.
Marc:Maybe my tolerance is growing.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop, available at WTFPod.com.
Marc:If you get the WTF blend, they kicked me a few shekels on the backside there.
Marc:You can donate to the show.
Marc:You can get the app.
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Marc:You can see the new merch.
Marc:Some shirts are coming.
Marc:We're going to do a Coop Hot Rod shirt.
Marc:That should be coming out soon.
Marc:If you're in Phoenix, come see me tonight.
Marc:It's Stand Up Live.
Marc:Boy, what else do I got to tell you?
Marc:That DVD with the first 100 episodes on MP3 files, like some of you have been asking for, is out.
Marc:You can go to aspecialthing.com slash WTF and get it there.
Marc:You can get a link to it at wtfpod.com.
Marc:People are digging it.
Marc:The packaging is beautiful.
Marc:I'm happy to bring it to you.
Marc:I'm still happy to do this show.
Marc:I'm happier than usual.
Marc:Man, that's a problem.
Marc:Can you hear my stomach growling?
Marc:Did you hear that?
Marc:Fuck, I better eat something.
Marc:Alright.