Episode 273 - James Mercer
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:And what the fuckalos?
Marc:What the fucktuckians?
Marc:Yes, I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:That is all the names I'm going to do today.
Marc:How is everybody?
Marc:I know my voice sounds weird.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I did something to it.
Marc:You know, it's my livelihood.
Marc:You shouldn't fuck it up, but I did.
Marc:I fucked up my voice.
Marc:I'll get into that in just a second.
Marc:Let's get to some business.
Marc:First of all, Portland.
Marc:Wait, first of all, well, this kind of ties into Portland.
Marc:I believe he lives in Portland occasionally.
Marc:James Mercer of the band The Shins is on the show today, and they're starting their big tour, I believe.
Marc:The Port of Morrow album is out now, and they just started their North American tour.
Marc:You can go to theshins.com to find that stuff.
Marc:You can also...
Marc:Just continue listening to this show to hear an acoustic live garage version of Simple Song, which is on the new album.
Marc:James hung out, played it right here in the garage right over there.
Marc:The Cat Ranch.
Marc:What would we call those?
Marc:Can we call those the Cat Ranch bootlegs?
Marc:I think we can.
Marc:I'm going to go with it.
Marc:What else is going on?
Marc:If you're in Los Angeles and you'd like to see me and some other great comics and do something good for an amazing organization...
Marc:Public Citizen is the organization.
Marc:They do all kinds of good things all over the place.
Marc:You want to learn more about them?
Marc:You can go to citizen.org and you can also get tickets to this show I'm doing on Sunday, April 29th with Ray Romano, Dana Gould, Wendy Liebman, Rick Overton, Eric Rivera, Morgan Murphy.
Marc:Big Night.
Marc:That's right here in Beverly Hills at the WGA Theater.
Marc:6.30.
Marc:Wow, that's early.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, you know, sometimes the older people.
Marc:Sunday night.
Marc:That's the way it goes.
Marc:Go to Citizen.org for information on that.
Marc:That should be fun.
Marc:I'll be in Austin, Texas this week at the Moon Tower Comedy Festival.
Marc:Thursday night at the Mohawk.
Marc:And I'm back on the agenda for Friday and Saturday.
Marc:I'm not sure when those gigs are.
Marc:I think I might be doing a writer's thing with...
Marc:Moshe Kasher, not sure about that either.
Marc:May 3rd in Phoenix at Stand Up Live.
Marc:Please come.
Marc:That's going to be fun.
Marc:That's a great room, I hear.
Marc:I'm excited.
Marc:I'll be there for one night only if you're in the Phoenix area.
Marc:Come out.
Marc:Go to Stand Up Live.
Marc:Go to the website.
Marc:Find the website.
Marc:Go to my website, wtfpod.com, for information on any of these gigs.
Marc:Also...
Marc:Quickly, this is the last day.
Marc:I'm sorry I'm doing all this.
Marc:This stuff has to be done.
Marc:This is the last day you can pre-order the first 100 episodes of WTF in MP3 files on a two DVD set with a live WTF video.
Marc:Also included in that box.
Marc:Beautiful box set.
Marc:That's available through you.
Marc:And that live WTF, it's the one with Ira Glass and Artie Lang.
Marc:You get the video of that.
Marc:When are those two ever going to be on stage together again?
Marc:You can get that at astrecords.com slash WTF.
Marc:This is the last day for pre-orders, and they are going fast.
Marc:It goes on sale this week.
Marc:Now, moving on, Portland.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Great shows.
Marc:Five shows in Portland.
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:I had a good time there.
Marc:I'm starting to figure Portland out.
Marc:It's a very tolerant city.
Marc:I don't like the word tolerance because to me, tolerance means intentional, dealable repression.
Marc:We can live with this and it's the right thing to do.
Marc:It's also a little, not prude, but a little politically correct.
Marc:I could feel it in the audience, but we got through it.
Marc:We got through that politeness.
Marc:It's very interesting, man, because Portland, what I figured out about Portland is that, yeah, they keep it weird and they push the envelope of weird and alternative lifestyle and kind of do your own thing, but they also really take, they push the limits of playing too.
Marc:There's some aggressively playing people.
Marc:There are people there that are just the human equivalent of tree bark or stones in a park.
Marc:Just sensible shoes, almost invisible to the eye, almost invisible to the American consumer-driven eye, the plain people of Portland, but lovely people.
Marc:Hey, who needs makeup when right across the street you've got a guy with magenta hair and large discs in his ears, perhaps pierced nipples, you know, covered in tattoos except for the tip of his nose.
Marc:Hey, you got to counteract that somehow.
Marc:There's got to be two sides to that yin and yang.
Marc:So I had a great time in Portland.
Marc:I did lose my voice, though.
Marc:And as some of you know who follow me on Twitter, my cat Boomer lost his voice, too.
Marc:My cat Boomer actually lost his voice before me.
Marc:I should have taken it as an omen.
Marc:It's a weird thing when you have a cat.
Marc:You know Boomer.
Marc:I can barely get him to meow in here.
Marc:And also, someone asked me about the other two cats, Monkey and LaFonda.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:They're great.
Marc:All the cats are just great.
Marc:I appreciate you asking.
Marc:But Boomer, who has a very raspy meow, like, meow.
Marc:Like that, the other day, last week, all of a sudden he can't meow.
Marc:His meow's stuck in his throat.
Marc:And no, this isn't the beginning of a children's story.
Marc:But that's one of those things where you're like, wow, should I bring him to the vet?
Marc:And then I put it off.
Marc:I'm like, he'll be okay.
Marc:Let's see if his meow comes back.
Marc:This should be a children's story.
Marc:Can I pitch this?
Marc:Is there a publisher out there?
Marc:Could we do a book called The Boomer Lost His Meow?
Marc:Something like that.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'll flesh it out.
Marc:You know, just get back to me.
Marc:So, of course, the day that I'm supposed to go to Portland, I got a million fucking things to do.
Marc:I'm exhausted.
Marc:And I decide, shit, I better Google this.
Marc:Google the Google the losing of the meow.
Marc:And of course, when you Google anything health related, it could be nothing could be cancer.
Marc:If you spend enough time, that's the arc.
Marc:That's the range.
Marc:Actually, that's anything on the internet.
Marc:Could be nothing.
Marc:Could be cancer.
Marc:So I take him to the vet.
Marc:And of course, the vet gets him to open his mouth, which I can't.
Marc:It's an infected mess because I don't have his teeth cleaned.
Marc:So now all of a sudden, I'm at the vet.
Marc:Yeah, OK, we'll do the teeth cleaning.
Marc:OK, yeah, I'll pay for extractions.
Marc:Yeah, OK, you're going to have to shoot him up with cortisone.
Marc:Right.
Marc:OK, yeah, I'm fine with the undercoat and the rust proofing.
Marc:Hey, wait a minute.
Marc:That's an extra.
Marc:Sometimes you don't know, but all I know is we got Boomer back, and now his meow is back to pre-raspy meow, pre-me ever knowing him.
Marc:He's meowing like a fucking champ.
Marc:Meanwhile, my voice is fucked, and I don't even have health insurance.
Marc:I should have had the vet look in my throat.
Marc:I don't think that's out of line in the day and age we live in now.
Marc:My health insurance lapsed.
Marc:I don't even know how it lapsed.
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I was on COBRA.
Marc:Is that some sort of racket?
Marc:Do you even understand your health insurance?
Marc:So now I didn't pay my COBRA for a month because I was on the road and they deviously stopped sending me invoices and I got 30 days behind and they just dropped me.
Marc:And all of a sudden I'm an old guy with no health insurance.
Marc:Okay, I'm not an old guy.
Marc:I'm a middle-aged guy with no health insurance.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:I don't even know how to buy health insurance.
Marc:I've always had union coverage through whatever I was making money in at the time.
Marc:And now I'm without health insurance.
Marc:I had to go shop for health insurance.
Marc:So I go to Kaiser and I had to fill out the application at Kaiser because it's all under one roof.
Marc:That seemed attractive to me.
Marc:have you ever read a health insurance application all of the diseases that you could potentially have it was like a menu at the cafe hypochondria look at all these possibilities of things i could be dying of but i'm not so i'll check no yet i didn't put that in i didn't check no and then go dot dot dot yet i didn't do that so now i'm waiting to hear if i can get health insurance i should have had the vet look in my throat they basically know right they know basically you know a body right is that weird i wonder if that's happening
Marc:I wonder if people are going to the vet and they don't have health insurance.
Marc:They're like, hey, could you just check me out?
Marc:You know anything about the prostate?
Marc:I know this is awkward and I'm a larger animal than you're used to, but it's basically the same thing.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:So you're asking how did I lose my voice?
Marc:I'll tell you how I lost my voice.
Marc:Jessica and I got into a fight.
Marc:Now, let me try to remember what it was about.
Marc:I think it was because she said something and I apparently was hypersensitive and immediately reacted in a completely out of line, aggressive way.
Marc:I misunderstood something.
Marc:And according to her, then dumped all of my anger on her because I'm overwhelmed, frustrated and very busy.
Marc:And she said, you're just taking it out on me.
Marc:And then we started arguing about whether or not I was taking out at her.
Marc:And when I yell, I go right to massive yelling.
Marc:So now me and Boomer have lost our meow.
Marc:But I'm still fucked up.
Marc:So what I learned here is that I'm getting older.
Marc:And if I play softball and I don't stretch...
Marc:I pull a hamstring.
Marc:If I go running and I don't warm up properly, my feet hurt.
Marc:So now it's the same with yelling.
Marc:Clearly, I have to do some vocal warm-ups if I'm about to scream.
Marc:La, la, la, la, la.
Marc:Fuck!
Marc:La, la, la.
Marc:Fuck you!
Marc:La, hmm, fuck!
Marc:Okay, baby.
Guest:Let's do this.
Marc:My idea of a tour manager, because I'm not a musician, is always Tony Hendra and Spinal Tap.
Marc:Just someone who goes in and kicks ass.
Marc:With a cricket bat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is that what that is?
Guest:He is a bit of that guy.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:What is his job?
Guest:You know, to manage the...
Guest:Like to say, these aren't the rooms we ordered.
Guest:Where's his monitor?
Guest:He does stuff like that.
Guest:And just like the other night, he showed up early to the hotel and he said it was loud, so he made sure my room was on the other side of the building.
Guest:Nice things like that.
Guest:Now, when it comes to the other guys in the shins, where are they at?
Guest:um well there's a lot of other guys in the shins you're the leader yeah so lately um you know i've added a bunch of people basically yeah and um so you know i got people living in seattle who are in the shins and they can say that even if they're what do you hire people for a song or for a record or for i mean yeah i know what you mean oh um are there like 30 people they're like yeah i'm in the shins you too i'm in the shins too
Guest:Well, so what we got is I've got the original band that I played with for quite a while.
Guest:There's four of you or five?
Guest:How many?
Guest:It was originally four.
Guest:Well, originally it was just me recording in a bedroom, you know, doing records.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then to play live, well, then doing drums, I added drums.
Guest:Then that was Jesse, a guy named Jesse.
Guest:Then we started playing shows as a two-piece.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just a drummer and you and some sort of box that makes other noises?
Guest:No, it was me on guitar singing and then a drummer.
Guest:And that was it?
Guest:Yeah, back in the 90s.
Guest:With brushes?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I was playing full on.
Guest:I had an amp, so I was keeping up.
Guest:So that was for a while.
Guest:I remember we opened up for Chibomato, which was a band about town.
Guest:I remember them.
Marc:Let me introduce you somehow.
Marc:My guest is James Mercer of the Shins, and now I'm going to learn about music.
Marc:Because clearly I had aspirations at some point.
Marc:I mean, I have guitars.
Marc:Yeah, and good guitars.
Marc:You play one of these?
Marc:I do.
Marc:You play a Les Paul, a TV junior?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:I have one of those.
Marc:But you probably have a real one.
Marc:This was a reissue.
Guest:I have a reissue, yeah.
Guest:They're good, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:I switched out the pickup with sort of a... With what?
Marc:This isn't a PAF, but this is something similar, right?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's a P90 or something.
Marc:P90, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you can make... It sounds real dirty real quick.
Marc:That's the thing that's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like that, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So let's go back to the idea that like, I like the idea that there's because of technology, there was a point where you were your own band and then all of a sudden it got popular and you're like, fuck, I, you know, in order to make money, I get to go play shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, and then, you know,
Guest:Dave Hernandez, who was the lead singer of the biggest band in Albuquerque, was like, let me play bass for you.
Guest:What band?
Guest:He was in a band called Scared of Chaka.
Marc:You know, I grew up in Albuquerque.
Guest:Punk band.
Guest:Yeah, I heard that.
Guest:That's cool.
Marc:Yeah, but there's a big age difference with us.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:I'm 41.
Marc:Well, it's not that big.
Marc:I'm 48, and I went to Highland High School.
Guest:Where'd you go?
Guest:I went to one year at El Dorado, and then I moved to England.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:My dad was Air Force.
Guest:That's why we were there.
Guest:How long were you in Albuquerque?
Guest:I was middle school and then one year of high school.
Guest:Where'd you go to middle school?
Guest:Eisenhower.
Guest:And then I moved away to England and graduated high school and then came back and went to UNM until it petered out on me.
Marc:Oh, so you were there?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, it's wild to have this shared landscape.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because when I was growing up, there was definitely a music scene there, but I don't know.
Marc:There was a band that everyone thought was going to happen called The Mutts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You remember them?
Marc:I remember their posters and stuff all over.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then there was a band that I like called The Broadway Elks.
Marc:They were sort of a blues outfit.
Marc:But I don't remember much music there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, there was a lot of heavy punk stuff that was kind of the staple.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What year are we talking?
Guest:I mean, so I moved back in 89 and left right before September 11th happened.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:so all the 90s I was you were there like I spent my life at Frontier Restaurant yeah I was there many hours do you remember the Living Batch bookstore yeah that dude that dude right up there in that picture with the beard Gus Blaisdell he used to own the Living Batch very important in my life that whole area was very important so you found this dude who was singing in a punk band Hernandez Hernandez yeah we were friends with them we'd play shows with them and stuff and
Guest:Yeah, so he joined up in the band.
Guest:And what was the band called that?
Guest:And then he moved away pretty quickly.
Guest:We were called the Shins.
Guest:What was the band before that?
Guest:Flake.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a different concept in a way, yeah.
Guest:But Shins fanatics are probably like, have you heard Flake?
Guest:Yeah, sometimes I hear some stuff like that on the internet.
Guest:What was Flake?
Guest:Flake was, you know, we really would just get a case of beer and go into the basement and just start jamming and put together songs together like that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A lot of fun.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And good friends of mine.
Guest:What was the style basically?
Guest:You know, it was kind of whatever we were into at the time.
Guest:So early on, we were doing Dinosaur Jr.
Guest:type stuff.
Guest:Noisy.
Guest:Pretty loud and noisy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, Super Chunk and Pavement.
Marc:I've got a bunch of Super Chunk stuff here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The guys over at Merge.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when did you get so fucking lyrical and orchestrated?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think, so we're doing all that stuff, and I started to get into sort of more classic songwriting stuff.
Guest:What was the inspiration?
Guest:I started listening to oldies.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Like Wilson Pickett.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Just R&B stuff?
Guest:Well, just anything that was on the oldies station in Albuquerque.
Guest:Right.
Guest:KQ106.
Guest:KQ106, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I became sort of fascinated with the stuff.
Guest:Like I could hear that they were...
Guest:they were just making really different decisions about the music and how to structure songs and stuff.
Guest:And I was just curious about it and started to try to do that.
Guest:And the Beatles were really into Wilson Pickett.
Marc:Were they?
Marc:Well, Wilson Pickett, I had no idea.
Marc:Wilson Pickett's big hit was that?
Marc:Midnight Hour.
Guest:Midnight Hour.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Beatles were into them, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, what do you take from that?
Marc:You can hear they bite him.
Marc:In the early stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, don't let me down.
Marc:I mean, that's late, but that's definitely like a soul ballad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And blasted in the way that Wilson Pickett did.
Marc:Right.
Marc:um but structurally i'd see i don't because i don't like you know i'm a pretty much a one four five guy you know i got blues based brain but you know you guys seem to break it open and you're orchestrating things that like it's stuff like i haven't heard since i was in high school i mean i don't want to draw weird comparisons but like do it like super tramp or like yeah somebody was telling me super tramp
Marc:Yeah, but I mean, where do you, like, I don't know what you were playing earlier, but I mean, you know, Dinosaur Jr.
Marc:is, you know, minor chords, and it's blasted out.
Marc:But like, when you start dealing with the Beatles, they seem to have, they came into something, I don't know where that kind of mindset comes from, to make pop decisions that seem, like, bizarre.
Marc:Like, they were the first to sort of do that, right?
Marc:Where all of a sudden it's like, where did that chord change come from?
Marc:How did we evolve into what we're at now?
Marc:Is that where you started to feel?
Marc:Like...
Guest:i've certainly wanted to make an attempt to do something more sophisticated i guess yeah i also was i had a bit of an angst being in albuquerque around so much of an attitude about how everything had to be kind of macho and aggressive in the 90s it really had this thing it had to be that the music scene
Guest:yeah or just in general everything had to be punk yeah you know like punk with like a furrowed brow yeah yeah and so i just i um are you were you an angry guy i mean you seem like a fairly it made me angry you know it pissed me off so you weren't actually mad for the reasons the punks were mad you were mad that the punks were holding you to their yeah their standard dogma of it
Guest:the dogma of punk you were rebelling against the dogma of punk well they were rebelling against the dogma of everything else right yeah because it really was something there was a there was a time there in the 90s where anything melodic at all was a it was suspect yeah you pussy you had a little light in the loafers yeah yeah so so that's so weird you're talking about a scene that was probably four bands
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Now, when you were in the, like, since you grew up in the Air Force, I mean, where did you live?
Marc:I mean, what were the jumps?
Marc:Because people that live that life always have some sort of fucking weird, like, you know, it always involves Germany.
Marc:Were you in Germany?
Marc:I was in Germany.
Guest:ramstein air force base it's the biggest i don't know if it's the biggest air base in the world and a lot of people end up in albuquerque because of kirkland yeah and then uh in england you were also in england and england that there's a raf lakenheath uh-huh that does uh at the time they were doing f-111s and they had bombed they had bombed libya oh right uh just before we moved there yeah and uh there were guys wearing t-shirts that said libya lakenheath is bombing your ass oh really acronym sure
Guest:That's the type of gung-ho stuff.
Guest:A lot of attitude there.
Guest:Where were you born?
Guest:Born in Hawaii.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, so that's Hickam Air Force Base there.
Guest:Oh, so your dad's a career dude.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:Yeah, he's around.
Guest:Still Air Force?
Guest:No, he's retired, but he still does.
Guest:What rank did he make?
Guest:He was Lieutenant Colonel.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:That's pretty big.
Guest:So he just kept on going, yeah.
Guest:Hawaii, man.
Guest:The Colonel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you call him that?
No.
Guest:when i'm pissed at him something yeah that's a lot of fucking discipline did he ever expect you to go into the military no he didn't he didn't want me to oh really yeah why um i think he was frustrated with the um arbitrary nature of how things happen i mean
Guest:You know, it's really a socialist state.
Guest:The military.
Guest:And not in a good way, you know, that you that you live in when you're in the military.
Marc:Whatever the group decides you do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And your life, you know, you live on a base and it looks like Russia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you grew up in that kind of like kind of like nice barracks living.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Air Force housing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And everybody had the same haircut and everyone socialized the same way.
Guest:But at the same time, because military people are from so many different walks of life, a lot of people join the military because they got no other way out of the ghetto.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:It's better than jail.
Guest:And so you do meet a lot.
Guest:It's kind of a nice mix of people, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you were in Hawaii, how long were you there?
Guest:Four years.
Marc:So you're young.
Marc:Yeah, I was really a kid.
Marc:I mean, I left, I was three, I think.
Marc:But did you find that this traveling, I mean, as a kid, like, what were your hobbies?
Marc:I can't imagine changing schools so much.
Marc:I mean, you know, what kind of kid were you?
Marc:Withdrawn, draw pictures?
Guest:I was sometimes, I guess, I was shy.
Guest:I was kind of shy.
Guest:I got into skating in middle school, and that kind of was a really good social sort of outlet for me.
Guest:uh no we didn't have a lot of pools in albuquerque we had uh ditches yeah yeah yeah we'd skate ditches down those big concrete dishes yeah yeah was there always were you one of the guys you must have one guy in your crew that went too high up and came shooting some of the two i saw a kid jump off of one of the bridges across the ditch just to be a badass and broke his ankles oh god but just like that type of a kid who's like look
Marc:at me yeah yeah and there you go look at you we're taking to the hospital yeah that wasn't a skating move man no that was just jumped off a damn bridge well those ditches like i don't think people can really picture them they're not like little ditches the ditches in albuquerque are these concrete they're designed for skating is what it looks like and they just got concrete sides but they're like 50 feet on the bottom yeah and then the slants are you know they must be 50 feet
Guest:And then the whole thing is going downhill.
Guest:So it's kind of like the snowboard half pipe thing that they create.
Guest:It's kind of like that.
Guest:It's all downhill, but it's a big scoop.
Guest:Did you ever hurt yourself?
Guest:Oh, yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you were a little skate punk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a lot of fun doing it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was my scene.
Marc:So when you were traveling so much, I mean, did it influence your way of thinking about music at all, or was that just a solitary thing?
Yeah.
Marc:Did you meet dudes?
Guest:Was there a dude that changed your mind outside of a record player?
Guest:There's a lot of those situations where you have a kid hand you a mixtape or something.
Guest:I mean, I remember this kid, Jason, in England handing me the Jesus and Mary chain.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And this would have been 86.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they were, 85 was like the psycho candy time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he handed me a mixtape of Jesus and Mary chain things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was not happening to my friends back in Albuquerque.
Guest:Yeah, the angry guys.
Guest:So I got hit by this stuff.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:That would have been 15.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that blew your mind?
Marc:You're like, yeah, there's other things I can do.
Guest:It blew my mind because it was...
Guest:A little bit had kind of a hippie vibe to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some of the songs almost had a real jangly guitar thing, but it was so fuzzed out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And kind of had this aggressive, weird mix to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So yeah, I was stoked.
Marc:So the first Shin's album was something that you did on your own and then redid with the band?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first Shin's record was me playing everything and then Jesse playing the drums on three of the songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was like an EP that we did.
Guest:And then I did a couple just on my own.
Guest:And then...
Guest:then I started recording more the acoustic stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I started, you know, about this time also, um, elephant six was a record label that was kind of gaining prominence out of Athens, Georgia, I believe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were doing this real fuzzed out psychedelic pop.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Neutral Milk Hotel was one of the bands that had a cool song on their label.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was another label, Spin Art, that was doing some cool stuff.
Guest:So I was hearing that there were people who kind of had my...
Guest:vibe or something.
Guest:Sensibility.
Guest:So I was really inspired by that stuff.
Guest:I started to try and take that angle and using my four track and stuff, just trying to figure out sounds.
Guest:And then New Slang was one of the songs that came up during that time.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What instruments do you play with relative proficiency?
Guest:None.
Marc:Outside of guitar?
Guest:I mean, I play guitar.
Guest:I play guitar okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I can do some stuff, but... But I mean, when you're doing your own mixing, were you using drum machines or were you playing the bass or how were you doing the tracks?
Guest:Yeah, I play bass and I play the piano and the keyboards.
Guest:I do all that stuff, but when you're recording, you can just do it until you get it right.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's bizarre to me because when I listen to your stuff, I mean, structurally it's above and beyond.
Marc:And also the way it's mixed is you're not doing fuzz shit anymore.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, it's very clean and the vocals are beautiful.
Marc:And it seems like all the instruments are varied and subtle and taking certain chances with transitions and stuff.
Marc:I mean, it doesn't sound like a guy who doesn't know how to play that well.
Right.
Guest:I mean, it's all relative.
Guest:I mean, because I now have people around me who are really good.
Guest:Like Dave Hernandez, for instance, is a really proficient guitarist.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So for me to say that I'm good at guitar while I'm working with him is just silly.
Marc:So you think your gifts are what?
Marc:Singing and songwriting for the most part?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the bigger concepts of how the song is put together and stuff is where I'm valuable, and then I need my friends to help me make it cool.
Guest:Make it cool.
Guest:I'll be back later.
Marc:Not only is it cool, but it seems like whatever you're doing, it stands alone right now.
Marc:Do you feel that?
Marc:I'm not completely up to speed on a lot of music, but I can't believe that you made the jump from...
Marc:from basically a white stripe setup.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what kind of music were you playing with just a drummer?
Guest:It was real, it was more rock and roll.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was more on the sort of garage band oldies tip.
Guest:And so, yeah, it was kind of, dang it, dang it, dang it, you know.
Guest:Oh, right, right.
Guest:So you've taken up all the bass.
Guest:Yeah, kind of driving it with the guitar.
Guest:Did you do covers?
Yeah.
Guest:um no we didn't do any covers not one cover not in that set uh-huh um and then early on we actually did a uh we did a cover of uh save a prayer by duran duran oh really kind of sort of tongue-in-cheek yeah so so then you evolve in so when did you build out the full band where did that happen
Marc:uh that was it's a kind of a convoluted story but basically i could say that modest mouse yeah who was a band that i we had met on their very first tour yeah when i was playing in flake originally did you work with danger mouse or am i making that up yeah i did that was that was uh broken bells right right yep that thing's fucking great cool man yeah i mean that thing's fucking great thank you all right so it wasn't a weird mistake that i just pulled out yeah it's like both yeah you're working with both mouses
Marc:So you're touring with Modest Mouse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So this is early, early on.
Guest:We'll go back to 1996.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We meet Modest Mouse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So.
Marc:I don't know their stuff.
Marc:I guess I should just admit.
Guest:There's some great shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:And it's really cool stuff.
Guest:But anyway, so we meet them when they're a huge band now.
Guest:And we met them.
Guest:We opened up for them at a sandwich shop.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Chico.
Guest:We were both on our first tour.
Guest:Chico, California.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah wow yeah that's a hell gig you know it was kind of crazy yeah silly you know but um we made that connection and we exchanged records and Isaac really fell in love with this 10 inch that that we did flake and um
Guest:so after shins in this transitional stage when i'm really starting to concentrate on this recording project shins we are contacted by isaac and he wants us to play some shows with them open up for them as flake um he thought we were flake still and we were kind of we were sort of both flake and the shins i was doing the shins so we ended up doing this weird thing where we played some shin songs and some flake songs and we opened up for modest mouse and
Marc:Was there a concern of yours where it's sort of like, well, no, I think The Shins is the future, and if we establish ourselves as Flake now... I don't recall.
Guest:Did you call yourself The Shins?
Guest:Yeah, what we did, we did this crazy thing where we would do three songs as The Shins, three songs as Flake, and then Marty had a band, too, our keyboard and bass player guy.
Guest:He had a band called Somersault, and then we'd be Somersault.
Guest:We had nine songs, so we opened up that way.
Guest:It was just kind of...
Guest:Did you announce each band?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We did.
Guest:And now we're going to be the Shins, and we would all change instruments and play three songs.
Guest:And the sound between Flake and the Shins is significantly different, right?
Guest:Well, you certainly, when the Shins stuff would start, it would be a little bit influenced by the old R&B thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It would sort of sound like oldies stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it was the stuff I was into.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And less of a sort of pavement-influenced Archers of Loaf thing.
Marc:So the Pavement influence was, because I think whatever evolved sound that you have now is a little more organized than Pavement.
Guest:Yeah, but that was kind of their whole thing.
Guest:And we fell in love with that.
Guest:No, it's great.
Marc:Which was the first Pavement album?
Marc:Slanted.
Marc:Slanted and Enchanted.
Marc:They were all really good.
Marc:It could all be one record up until the last couple, I think.
Marc:maybe do you know those guys um i know steve yeah and i know um scott yeah yeah i know all those guys actually yeah it was like such a unique sort of loose thing that it felt loose but you could tell it was really sort of laid down and brilliant yeah yeah yeah what what about it for you was it the songwriting or just the way they dealt with sound
Guest:There's great hooky parts.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:There's moments of melodic, you know, what would you say, beauty?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, lyrical beauty.
Guest:Yeah, and it's like the lyrics are cool, but it had that same fuzzed out, messed up sound that Jesus and Mary Chain had that I loved, you know?
Guest:But you've departed from that.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I mean, I guess you just move on to other interests.
Marc:All right, so there's the Modest Mouse period.
Marc:So how did that evolve into you becoming the Shins and getting your deals?
Guest:And solidifying that.
Guest:So, well, we had to open up for a band and do that properly.
Guest:And so that really kind of was the first time that we went out, and it was the Flake guys, basically, but backing me up as the Shins.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then we got signed.
Guest:By?
Guest:By Sub Pop.
Guest:Were they still... They were big.
Guest:I guess they're still good now.
Guest:I mean, I think people would say that they were in kind of a weird time.
Marc:Post-grunge?
Guest:It was post-grunge.
Guest:So the thing that had made them a famous label and made them a lot of money was gone.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it's kind of like, well, where do we go?
Guest:What is our identity now?
Guest:And I was a little concerned about that, frankly, when they were soliciting this whole thing.
Marc:Were they the only offer you had?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So that made the decision easier for me.
Guest:But we met them and they actually had started signing some different things, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like who else was on the label with you?
Guest:Yeah, I'm talking like St.
Guest:Etienne had something.
Guest:I remember them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in fact, Jesus and Mary changed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did something.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:They were branching out and trying to find a path forward.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think we were one of those experiments.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And did you get to meet Jesus and Mary chain?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:To this day?
Guest:No.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Maybe I shouldn't even aspire to do that.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Well, they probably just would be like, what the fuck are you?
Marc:No, what are you talking about?
Marc:You're a guy now, man.
Marc:I'm a guy?
Marc:Yeah, you're a guy.
Marc:All right, so you did how many albums with Sub Pop?
Marc:We did three.
Marc:All three of them?
Marc:And this new one's the only one that isn't?
Guest:Yeah, and the new one is Columbia slash Arl Apothecary.
Guest:Arl Apothecary being the old label when I was putting out those little things before we played with Modest Mouse and stuff.
Guest:Call in Darla Records and have them press the things and send them to me.
Guest:So, well, basically, Arl Apothecary, which is my imprint...
Guest:I get to own the masters in this deal that we made with Columbia.
Guest:Columbia is the real record label.
Guest:They're the ones doing the hard work.
Marc:So oral apothecary is you.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:So they're basically, that's just a way for you to maintain the rights of your songs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's a good deal.
Guest:It's a good deal.
Marc:Yeah, to be the guy who's got the publishing.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And owns the masters, owns the actual recordings.
Marc:It seems that in terms of growing your sound, what were some of the challenges of making new records?
Marc:Because I know you have a signature voice.
Marc:You definitely have all the music that I've heard that you guys have done definitely creates a sound environment.
Marc:For me, it's sort of like, hey, it's gray out and I'm going to walk on the beach.
Marc:But I like that because I come from... Some of the bands that had an effect on me were Brian Eno.
Marc:And certain Bowie records, but like Brian Eno stuff definitely has that sense of like a big like audio texture that kind of brings you to a place.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So are you conscious of that?
Guest:I try to be, you know, you're right.
Guest:I think Brian Eno is really a genius at that.
Guest:Like, you know.
Guest:He sort of limits the palate somehow, and then everything feels like it's all in the same conversation.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You try to be aware of that, and are you aware that you have a sound?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, there's a lot of it that's accidental, I think, you know, I mean, you know, it's just maybe my the way my aesthetic or something and then maybe the sound of my voice and things.
Guest:But but yeah, I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I am conscious of trying to keep it sort of consistent on a record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you work with the same producer?
Guest:No, it's been mixed up.
Guest:So the first record I just did all myself in the bedroom, the O Inverted World.
Guest:And then Shoots Too Narrow, I did a bulk of the recording and then went in with Phil Eck to mix.
Guest:But what really ended up being re-recording some of it and mixing with Phil Eck.
Guest:So he kind of was in a producer sort of role with me for part of it.
Guest:Uh, the, the next one I did, uh, worked a bunch with Phil Eck to record the drums and get.
Guest:And what's his resume?
Guest:Um, well, he's done all kinds of stuff.
Guest:Um, all the built to spill stuff was sort of his, he came to fame doing that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, but now he's like Fleet Foxes.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:He just does tons of stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Band of horses.
Guest:Oh, band of horses.
Guest:He's a really strong producer in a traditional environment, going to tape and using vintage reverbs.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, not a lot of trickery.
Marc:Because I think Band of Horses are sort of like in sound style as a contemporary of yours in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You sound different, but he seems to be really about vocals and there's something about that kind of aural feeling, the sound feeling.
Guest:You like those guys?
Guest:I do.
Guest:You know them?
Guest:I do know them and they're really cool people too.
Guest:But we used to know some of those guys in a band called Carissa's Weird.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a while back.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It seems like it took a while for keyboards to come back.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:And not be like a total joke.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Isn't that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I listen to yours and there's part of me that goes back to when I was a kid going to high school in the late 70s and 80s where you had those bands.
Marc:And when you listen to that stuff, I can never figure out how they do it.
Marc:And it seemed like some sort of trick to use synthesizers or keyboards.
Marc:But now piano and keyboards seem to be like, it's okay again.
Guest:We're good.
Guest:Everything's opened up.
Guest:Yeah, I think like that.
Guest:Yeah, you're allowed to do a lot more than like what I was talking about back in the 90s when it was just kind of noise and this understood thing that you were never to, you know, venture out of what was considered cool.
Marc:When you first started working with a guy that did keyboards, I mean, what is your approach to that?
Marc:I mean, you just sort of like, all right, see what you can do with this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, Greg is, he loves that, those things, those old like vintage synthesizers and stuff.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:And I think what I learned about them is that really they are, they're such highly sophisticated machines.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the attention to detail that was put into every component of those, you know, like something like a string ensemble, sequential circuits.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Synthesizers and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:they i mean that at the time was the most high tech sure you know they every uh i remember going no expense i remember going into music stores and the guy would be like wait you hear this yeah twenty thousand dollars yeah one of those things that all it does is imitate strings yeah in a really cheesy to us sort of sounding way yeah but i think now i look at it as
Guest:It's not a string imitation.
Guest:It's just... A synthesized sound.
Guest:It is what it is.
Guest:That sound is actually something attractive in its own.
Guest:So you look at it as a totally different instrument.
Marc:Was there a fear, though, initially, where it's like, I don't want to sound like fucking sticks?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I hear you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, how do we make this cool?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I...
Guest:I had messed around a little bit with some of that 80s or late 70s sounding string stuff.
Marc:Even on... Come sail away.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:And I had messed around a little bit with that, even on Shoots Too Narrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I knew that it could be used in sort of a cool way where it was still musical and it wasn't a novelty thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It wasn't ironic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then so when Greg started messing around with it, I wasn't afraid necessarily, but the stuff he started doing with it just transformed the feel of the song in such a cool way.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I think there were a few of the songs on this record that would have been a little bit, you kind of just really would have expected it from the shins.
Guest:Okay, they're doing that thing again.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, they're trying to do another new slang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he really kind of added something that gives it a new color.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, well, that was like my feeling when I heard the first records that when I like, cause I'm a guy where it's like, um, someone says, you gotta listen to this band.
Marc:And I like fucking download everything.
Marc:And I just sit there and, and there was those buttons that were sort of pushed from my childhood.
Marc:I'm like, don't using synthesizers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's happening?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are we ready for that to come back yet?
Marc:Is it okay now?
Marc:You guys are sort of championing.
Marc:You're, you're cutting a new path.
Guest:Well, I mean, I don't know if I could take credit for it because there are bands who have done it as the sort of novelty thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And really been like, we're going to do a synthesizer album.
Guest:And so they kind of maybe do that path cutting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so now we're allowed to add it as a part of the palette.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:We're doing this for real.
Guest:It's not ironic.
Marc:We're not trying to prove anything.
Marc:This is an instrument.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I think it's cool.
Guest:I mean, I really am happy about how things are musically now that you can.
Guest:You can do anything you want.
Marc:Yeah, because you can find your audience, you know, and people appreciate it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are your crowds like?
Marc:Are they like sad girls or nervous guys?
Marc:Hey, how's it going?
Guest:I think we get a pretty big mix.
Guest:We get a lot of older people, actually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is kind of cool.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I always feel like that means something, that somehow they heard something in the song.
Guest:Like my age or?
Guest:48 or 50, 60?
Guest:Older, like 50 and 60-year-old people who are actually showing up to Shin's shows, you know?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:with college kids and stuff i mean it's a pretty broad mix i mean i think there's certainly something about some of the songs that appeals to that you know maybe introverted person yeah but there's other songs that we do that are just kind of rock and roll songs you know you can kind of get into right kind of rock out i went to a fountains of wayne show uh-huh and uh there were families there
Marc:yeah yeah because there are certain bands that like they're they're not offensive they've been around a long time so like now all those kind of first wave you know um independent rock people are now my age yeah they got teenage kids so like it was sort of like oh my god there's family there's like little families hanging out and singing all the songs yeah that's cool it's sweet right yeah i don't see yeah that's that's just awesome i hope that that sort of stuff happened we have seen some kids at our shows you know
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It must be great.
Guest:I've got kids myself.
Guest:You do?
Guest:How old?
Guest:Two and four.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Little girls.
Guest:New ones.
Guest:Newbies.
Guest:How are you doing with that?
Guest:We're doing great.
Guest:I mean, we're happy.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:It's hard, though.
Guest:It's a challenge.
Guest:How long are you on the road at any given stretch?
Guest:we're trying to keep it down to three weeks and if in a stretch yeah like three weeks away from the family would be the maximum right um and even on a few of those what we're doing is bringing the family out so my wife and kids are going to come out like okay we'll meet you in new york and we'll hang out for three days in the kids get to see new york get to see new york and get to see papa you know yeah yeah yeah do that
Marc:And both your folks are still around?
Guest:Yeah, they are.
Marc:And they dig the music or what?
Marc:They love it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, they've got a big RV that they drive and they'll follow us and come to the shows.
Guest:The Colonel?
Guest:Yeah, the Colonel and Alice.
Guest:And Burton will sort them out with a spot right there along the other buses and stuff.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, man, we're barbecuing.
Guest:It's fun.
Guest:It's really cool.
Guest:They're awesome people.
Guest:You got siblings?
Guest:Yeah, I've got a bunch of siblings.
Guest:Both my folks had previous marriages.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, so I've got two older brothers, two older sisters, and one younger sister.
Marc:What a trip.
Marc:So the two older brothers and sisters are from other marriages, and you've got a younger sister that's a full-on younger sister?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:And they all dig what you're doing?
Guest:Yeah, everybody's happy for me, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They love it, you know?
Guest:And it's, like, not necessarily the type of music they'd listen to normally, maybe, you know?
Guest:But they love it because it's me, you know?
Marc:And what do you think you brought from... Because, you know, I talk to a lot of creative people, you know?
Marc:And a lot of them are fucked up.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And you seem pretty well adjusted.
Marc:I mean, I can't imagine what it's like to really grow up in a military environment.
Marc:I mean, did you do well in school?
Marc:Was there discipline?
Marc:Did you ever like, you know, fuck you, dad, I'm leaving?
Yeah.
Guest:um i did okay in school i wasn't a terrific student um i was rebellious yeah uh you know and so i didn't respect the whole thing i didn't really see what you know the big picture yeah it's like what is it we're trying to do here with me yeah you know
Guest:I just kind of, the whole time, which just undercut.
Guest:You got a plan because I don't know where you're going with this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just undercut my enthusiasm about everything.
Guest:So you're kind of a gloomy kid?
Guest:At times I definitely was.
Guest:But then, you know, I think I found skateboarding and got into that and then found music sort of along with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was good.
Guest:When did you write your first song?
Guest:uh well when i was really little i was writing songs about my cousin who i had become infatuated with carrie really was it like a heartache yeah like these wistful you know yeah did that ever go anywhere
Marc:How's she doing?
Marc:My mom said no.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's not right.
Marc:I mean, here are the reasons why.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Here are some pictures of deformities.
Guest:Here's what a child's liver will look like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so I was always kind of one of those kids who was humming songs and-
Guest:But you were a heavy hearted kid.
Marc:I mean, you're writing romantic songs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Get infatuated with girls early on.
Guest:Horrible crushes on girls.
Marc:Just perpetual heartache.
Guest:Isn't that what it is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:Because you don't know what to do about it and you just kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I had that through high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, stupid longing.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:like where you just didn't know how to manifest what was necessary to make it happen so you just until you meet that one girl who knows right right and you're like thank god you came because i was in trouble yeah you saved me i remember that the sort of obsessive infatuation and you build these pictures in your head about like how it would be like they just became a vibration more than a person like you know like
Marc:oh there she is oh no i made such a fucking ass out of myself so much awesome too much cologne yeah anything anything like you're not always stumbling through that first encounter where it's just like coincidental but you've been planning it your whole life and you just kind of like fuck it up yeah and they look at you like what's because all that energy of your infatuation is coming to this moment and 90 of the time they don't even know who the fuck you are why you're looking at them weird and why you're like yeah yeah yeah and it's it's you're set to you're doomed
Guest:You're doomed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember the drinking was the only way that... Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's always more appealing.
Guest:Hey, what's up?
Guest:Hopefully they're drunk and you just fall on them.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it'll work out.
Marc:Our tongues are meeting.
Marc:It worked.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, so... But your songs are... Like, I don't understand a lot about songwriting because, like...
Marc:Like, how do you know you have a song?
Marc:I mean, what do you shoot?
Marc:What do you focus on?
Marc:Do you focus on hooks or feelings or like, I mean, because like a good song needs to kind of define itself in the mind of the listener.
Marc:You can't be too, you're not writing ballads.
Marc:You're not writing folk songs.
Marc:I mean, like the poetics of it.
Marc:I mean, where does it come from for you?
Marc:Is it where are you just fucking around with words?
Marc:Do you have, you know, is there a feeling?
Marc:Do you have a moment where you're like, oh, that's a weird building and then you do it or do you not have a system at all?
Guest:Well, I mean, the typical thing that I'm doing is sitting down with the guitar and just looking for that moment where something sounds cool, you know, putting chords together.
Guest:So the chords come first?
Guest:I mean, they kind of come along with a melody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It depends, though.
Guest:Sometimes you'll be playing and, oh, that's just a cool chord progression.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I can't think of anything to sing over it, so I just record that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'll just record it like that's cool.
Guest:Just to archive it, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm doing that sort of stuff regularly.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Almost every day there's some moment when I'm playing the guitar and just looking for something new.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I save up a bunch of those little ideas.
Guest:And then when it comes time to really get serious about
Guest:trying to turn something into a song i'll take my favorite of those and think okay how can we do go from this cool part and into another cool part you find a chorus for this yeah it's just sort of building like that and you sometimes you just have fragments all over the place yeah and like you have a fragment of music maybe a fragment of lyrics and then like you sort of build it out from there
Marc:Yeah, there's any number of ways.
Marc:So the poetry is not... Because I've talked to Nick Lowe about this because I tend to make assumptions about people.
Marc:I assume that everything they write about is something they're experiencing.
Marc:It's directly related to their life.
Marc:But a lot of times, the job of a songwriter is to write a song.
Marc:It's a craft.
Marc:You don't have to sit there and go, I'm sad.
Marc:You're not sad all the time and not existentially despairing in any way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I mean, what I do is I finish, I get the music and sort of melody and stuff to a point where I think it's fairly close to done.
Guest:And then I listen to it and I kind of think, well, what is this melody?
Guest:Why would this exist?
Guest:You know, is it a sad thing?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And think about like, try and sort of articulate what the music is already saying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do you have those moments where you're like, fuck?
Marc:I can't figure out where does this go now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then those, you know, and sometimes that goes on for years.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So some of the stuff on this record even was around 10 years ago.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like which song on the new record?
Marc:The new record is Port of Morrow.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your titles are really good too.
Marc:Oh, cool.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Wincing the Night Away I can get.
Marc:Shoot's Too Narrow.
Marc:I can get that.
Marc:Oh, Inverted World.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:Port of Morrow.
Guest:that's a little that's a little sticksy there's a uh yeah there's funny you say that really yeah because i there's a sign on the side of the road as you're heading back into oregon from from tour yeah and it just says poor tomorrow you know this way um
Guest:And I just always wondered about it, thought it was kind of an evocative sound.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's kind of poetic sound.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Guest:And I thought, like, the river sticks.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So maybe this is the port, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then off you go.
Guest:You're done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Goodbye.
Guest:See you later.
Guest:And so in the song, Port of Morrow, that's the sort of symbolizes death, I guess, at the end.
Marc:Now, you say that, like, I guess.
Marc:Like, it symbolizes death.
Guest:Like, do you write things and go, like, hey, this kind of... Sometimes, you know, it's... Yeah, I mean, I just kind of listed these things.
Guest:Ace of spades, poor tomorrow, life is death is life.
Guest:So, yeah, it's in that vein.
Guest:It's, like, the dark things.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But you seem so chipper.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:Got to keep the smile going.
Guest:The darkness will find you eventually.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It doesn't end well for anybody.
Marc:When you play, I can't imagine.
Marc:I've played recently.
Marc:I don't play in public much, and I've played recently, and it's very frightening to me.
Marc:To me, a lot of people think, well, you do stand-up.
Marc:How can anything be more frightening than that?
Marc:Because I think singing...
Marc:and and performing music is so much more vulnerable really like that your heart in in what you're sort of putting out there like for me to sing you know i it's so terrifying because to me it's like it's so pure i mean did you do when you're on stage in front of thousands of people do you feel like a rush like when you hit a high note which you're extremely capable of doing and you just hear fans like yeah
Marc:I mean, I can't imagine the buzz of that.
Marc:That's not really a question.
Marc:Or are you more sort of like, oh, I missed it.
Guest:I didn't hit it right.
Guest:It depends.
Guest:I mean, if I feel like that, then I probably missed it.
Guest:But there are moments when you feel this, you kind of get the shivers or something.
Guest:You feel like you're actually communicating something for a second and it's being effective.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And that's a cool feeling.
Marc:One moment.
Marc:mind like you know you and the audience because you're not really just having a conversation you're like doing this thing and and uh sometimes you really can feel like they're getting it yeah yeah it's happening that they're they're pleased by this yeah yeah performance right oh that's good it is good it's like the the love all around you wouldn't have had that if you stayed in a punk band i guess not if you'd stayed fuzzy well yeah you know what i mean because i think that your your your music is very evocative
Marc:How did the relationship with Danger Mouse happen now that we're back to the right mouse that I had in mind to begin with?
Marc:And no disrespect to Modest Mouse.
Marc:Of course then, yeah.
Marc:I'll be obsessively listening to Modest Mouse because I knew they were around, but I had Danger Mouse on my mind because I was just listening to Broken Bells.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And was that...
Marc:Because there's something that I noticed in just listening to it was that there is, not to categorize anybody, but there is more of an R&B element to it.
Marc:And is that getting back to Wilson Pickett for you?
Guest:In a way?
Guest:I guess, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, to a certain extent.
Guest:And I think my singing, the note choices and stuff, I get a little bit more of the blues scale going.
Guest:And that's because Brian and I both love that stuff.
Guest:yeah we love that old r&b it's great yeah that and like psychedelic rock from the 60s and stuff yeah and how'd you uh get in cahoots with him um well i first met him in copenhagen at a festival um he was a shins fan and he like snuck backstage basically and and uh and came and said hi and then we just kind of cruised around checking out all the bands we went and saw morrissey performing and were you a big smiths fan
Guest:Yeah, in high school.
Guest:Were you?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you have the haircut and stuff?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I had sort of like a flat top.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:For a lot of high school.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Because your dad was like, go to my barber.
Guest:Well, it was, I mean, it was kind of because...
Guest:It was kind of New Wave or something.
Guest:I don't know what I was trying to do.
Guest:It wasn't very cool, actually, looking back.
Guest:So we met and hung out, and we got along well, and it was a really fun night.
Guest:And then we ended up going to the bar, all of us, the whole band and Brian.
Guest:And the next time I saw him was in England.
Guest:He was working on some stuff and showed me.
Guest:I think he was working on the Gorillaz thing and showed me a bit of that.
Guest:And he had had the success.
Marc:no he had not done gnarles yet i think still anyway he we just ran into each other like the the gray album it's called right yeah he had done yeah and that was the thing he had done that we knew about when we first met him yeah i mean because that thing that must have sort of rocked your world i mean because that thing is inspired right it's it's bad you know because it's beetles it's beetles but in but the black album too was like that that album is fucking awesome yeah oh yeah
Marc:And for him to sort of conceptualize that and then execute it.
Marc:I mean, he always strikes me as sort of a wizard of some kind.
Marc:Like he's definitely got this like weird savant like presence to me.
Guest:Well, when you see him work creating beats, it is like watching somebody like where you can't.
Guest:tell exactly what he's doing because he's going so fast.
Guest:He's so adept at it.
Guest:It's like watching somebody who's just really mastered something.
Guest:It's kind of cool.
Marc:And what did you bring to that project?
Marc:Did you bring melodies?
Marc:Did you bring your guitar?
Marc:I mean, how did that work?
Marc:Because, I mean, he's sort of a solitary unit, right?
Guest:Yeah, he can do all kinds of stuff.
Guest:The first day I just showed up, I didn't bring a guitar or anything because he's got tons of gear and stuff, so I knew that we would have plenty of instruments.
Guest:um so i just showed up and and we started creating stuff on the fly and that's how it went consistently consistently after that we just would show up with nothing planned pick up instruments try and figure out if we ever got anything cool it'd be like okay record it yeah let's get that yeah and let's loop it and we'll start listening to it and think about what's next what could we add what could we so it was all sort of improvised in a way
Guest:Yeah, and really fast and fun and really collaborative.
Guest:We're both thinking ideas all the time.
Guest:It really goes fast.
Marc:And he produced it?
Marc:And he produced it.
Marc:And now you're going to work with him again or no?
Guest:Yeah, we're doing another record.
Guest:And we've got other songs that we've worked on, so hopefully some of those will end up on the next record.
Marc:Do the shins get mad at you when you run around?
Guest:Well, I mean, I've really kind of set myself up in a situation where I'm allowed to do all those things.
Guest:You know, I can...
Marc:Legally or with those guys?
Guest:What I've done basically is everybody understands that I'm going to be the shins and I'll bring people in as I need them.
Guest:When there's a song that needs something that somebody like Dave Hernandez can do something on, I'll call him.
Guest:He's the go-to guy when you need that certain thing because...
Guest:You can't really get it anywhere else.
Marc:It's sort of amoebic in the way that it's not like.
Guest:It's more, I mean, I think of it kind of like as a collective in a way.
Guest:It's like, I'm going to be writing songs and I need help making them, fleshing them out.
Marc:So it's not like, you know, you guys live together and it's not the Beatles really.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:It's more of a sort of like, what are you guys doing?
Guest:It was never like that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that's probably a lot of personality pressure off of you.
Marc:in the sense that like if everyone understands that like we're going on the road and and then like you don't you know you don't hate each other and fucking exactly and everybody is is free to do their projects which everybody does have other projects you know they're all cool with that i'm you know i i think so yeah i think it's working i think it's working out and there's no big uh sort of juicy drugs and alcohol problems and no insanity and no not really not not yet
Guest:i think things are going okay there's always time yeah well i suppose no i mean everybody seems healthy oh that's good do you work with bands now who's opening for you usually um it's it's uh you know it depends we're kind of sorting that out right now we've played with a lot of bands um and how do you make richard swift was a guy who opened up for us and now he's playing in the shins oh
Marc:Well, that worked out for him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's another one with the business card.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And how do you decide on bands?
Guest:Just what's going to complement?
Guest:There's a lot of things that go into that.
Guest:Sometimes it's the promoter, the local promoter would really be like, you really should have this band because they're going to fill some seats and they kind of fit with you guys.
Guest:Sometimes it's just, I really love this band.
Guest:I really want to ask them to play with us because I want to get to know these people.
Marc:have you had moments where you were able to play with people or work with people that you respected like in the sense sort of i can't believe i'm fucking doing this like yeah outside of like danger mouse i mean are there people that were you i just sang on an amy man song oh she's great she was down the street she's really cool too yeah yeah she's she's something so that was really cool so i sing sang like a duet like a proper duet uh-huh on her new record or
Guest:I don't know if it's going to... I hope it is.
Guest:I hope so.
Guest:It's cool.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Did she seek you out?
Guest:Yeah, they called and asked me to come down and do it.
Guest:And I practiced.
Guest:I rehearsed the song and stuff and went in there and did it.
Guest:Yeah, she's great.
Guest:I haven't seen her in a while.
Guest:She's got a cool... I mean, I just love her attitude.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:See, I remember her when... I lived in Boston when Till Tuesday was around.
Marc:And I used to see her wandering around the streets with her hair.
Marc:Yeah, she's been around a long time.
Guest:Pretty lady.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what do you want to do?
Marc:Do you want to sing a song or no?
Marc:Sure, I could sing something.
Marc:Do you have a song in mind?
Marc:Well, I'd like you to do... I heard you have an acoustic version of the single off the new one.
Marc:You want to do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Want to give it a shot?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:well this is just a simple song to say what you done i told you about all those fears and away they did run you sure must be strong and you feel like an ocean made warm by the sun
Guest:When I was just nine years old I swear that I dreamt Your face on a football field And a kiss that I kept under my vest Apart from everything with the heart in my chest
Guest:I know that things can really get rough when you go it alone
Guest:Don't go thinking you gotta be tough Play like a stone Could be there's nothing else in our lives So critical As this little home My life in an upturned boat Marooned on a cliff
Guest:You brought me a great big flood And you gave me a lift Girl, what a gift You tell me with your tongue And your breath goes in my lungs And we float over the rift I know that things can really get rough When you go it alone
Guest:So don't go thinking you gotta be tough Play like a stone It could be there's nothing else in our lives So critical As this little home
Guest:Well, this'll be a simple song To say what you've done I told you about all those fears And the way they did run You sure must be strong
Guest:And you feel like an ocean made warm by the sun.
Guest:Remember walking a mile to your house, a glow in the dark.
Guest:I made a fumbling play for your heart, and the axe struck a spark.
Guest:You wore a charm on the chain that I stole It's special for you Love's such a delicate thing that we do With nothing to prove Which I never knew
Marc:James Mercer, thank you.
Guest:Thank you, man.
Guest:That was awesome.
Guest:All right.
Marc:You feel good about it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was great, man.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Well, good luck with everything.
Guest:Hey, thank you.
Marc:That's our show, folks.
Marc:I hope you dug it.
Marc:I like talking to musicians, and we certainly had a lot in common.
Marc:Well, we grew up in a similar place, and we both play an instrument, him very well, me badly.
Marc:But nonetheless, it was a thrill talking to James Mercer.
Marc:There are more musicians coming up on WTF.
Marc:But this Thursday, we got the amazing raconteur that is Bob Zamuda, Andy Kaufman's right-hand man and partner in crime.
Marc:And man, can he tell Kaufman stories?
Marc:So if you want Kaufman stories, I don't know how you feel about Zamuda, but you'll get Kaufman stories.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Check the calendar out.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Get the app.
Marc:Get information about this or that.
Marc:Get a link to the new DVD with the first 100 episodes on MP3.
Marc:The last day.
Marc:This today is the last day.
Marc:You can pre-order it.
Marc:pow look out i just shit my pants i did i swear justcoffee.coop available at wtfpod.com man is that it is that it jesus christ i wish i could get boomer in here so you could hear his new meow the new improved boomer meow i'm gonna go see the hunger games with jessica and you know what i don't know anything about the hunger games you know why because i'm a grown man yeah that's why
Marc:Is my voice still sound bad?