Episode 269 - David Cross
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:We are here again on Monday.
Marc:Can I say this?
Marc:I will be at the Stress Factory in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
Marc:I didn't do that on purpose.
Marc:I did not do that on purpose.
Marc:That is going to be April 13th and 14th.
Marc:I haven't been there in a while.
Marc:It's an old room.
Marc:It's a big room.
Marc:It's an intense room.
Marc:I welcome all of my friends from the East Coast to travel down to New Brunswick, New Jersey.
Marc:My friends in New York and Brooklyn.
Marc:Do something unhip for a change.
Marc:Come to New Brunswick, New Jersey.
Marc:See me at the Stress Factory.
Marc:It's going to be my only East Coast dates for a little while.
Marc:I'll get back there eventually.
Marc:But please, please come out.
Marc:You can get the link to tickets at WTFPod.com.
Marc:I also just added a link there for Just Coffee WTF blend in the merch section.
Marc:That's the one that I make a little percentage off of.
Marc:Today on the show, Dave Cross, David Cross.
Marc:You may know him from Mr. Show, Arrested Development, Chipmunk movies, other movies he's had parts in.
Marc:You might know him from back in the day in Boston when I met him.
Marc:It's so weird.
Marc:It's so weird talking to Dave.
Marc:I mean, we had a long conversation.
Marc:I'm not going to burn up too much time here.
Marc:I pulled this book off my shelf.
Marc:I was out to dinner with my buddy Coop, Chris Cooper, the artiste, the man who hot-rodded the hot-rod art.
Marc:The dude who did that poster for my shows up at the Neptune, great poster artist, great painter.
Marc:We're actually doing a collector's card sticker of that poster in the style of the old Odd Rods card.
Marc:But nonetheless, we were out to dinner and we got to talking about Adam Parfrey.
Marc:And I hadn't thought of his name in a while.
Marc:And I realized I had this book and we started talking about this book, Apocalypse Culture, edited by Adam Parfrey.
Marc:And this book changed my fucking life.
Marc:The first edition.
Marc:You can't find the first edition that much anymore.
Marc:I don't even know if you can find the second edition.
Marc:I've got both editions because of how obsessed I was with this book.
Marc:And it changed my life.
Marc:It was one of those books.
Marc:It was like the denial of death, but a lot different in that it just blew every aspect of my fucking mind so far out that I could never look at things the same again.
Marc:And if you want that experience, I don't know if it holds up because I was sort of looking through it.
Marc:It's got a painting by Joe Coleman on the front.
Marc:Now, this is the time in the early 90s.
Marc:You know, when did this come out?
Marc:I mean, I was my brain was this was 1987.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:Where the hell was I?
Marc:Where did I buy this book?
Marc:Because I remember it coming out and I was like, oh, my God, I got to have this book.
Marc:So it must have been right after the things broke apart in my head.
Marc:No wonder it had such a powerful impact.
Marc:But there's four different sections in this thing.
Marc:There's apocalypse theologies, apocalypse art, apocalypse science, and apocalypse politics.
Marc:But this was during the conspiracy time.
Marc:There was a thing in here written by this out there ex-Freemason
Marc:called King Kill 33 Degree Latitude, Masonic Symbolism, the Assassination of John F. Kennedy by a guy named James Shelby Downward.
Marc:And there's an intro to it by a guy named Michael A. Hoffman.
Marc:And this thing just blew my mind.
Marc:It just broke down the assassination, the events that surrounded it as part of a Masonic ritual.
Marc:going down to the names of people like Jack Ruby, the ruby, the color red for ruby, and just breaking it down all the way down to that point.
Marc:And there was a point in my life where I was like, see, you just got to break things down efficiently, down to the very, even if it's a name, break it down to a color or a jewel because that jewel has some sort of significance.
Marc:Boy, there is no end to the depth of bullshit you can get yourself involved in
Marc:with conspiracy so ornate but in retrospect i look at as one of the most beautiful lyrical pieces of conspiracy writing as a genre that i've ever read and there's all kinds of stuff in here and just reading this stuff just blew my mind and broke me wide the fuck open it took me years to close it back up again that's the one thing man listen to me man man
Marc:If you push your brain out there, boy, you're going to have to close it back up.
Marc:If you open up that aperture too much, eventually you're going to have to close it back up and learn to adjust it.
Marc:Can't stay wide open.
Marc:You can't stay wide open.
Marc:But when I met Dave Cross, Christ, we talked about all this kind of shit.
Marc:And this is a little something I just, for some reason, I feel like being honest with you about this.
Marc:That I was not really a popular kid.
Marc:I don't know if you could glean that from listening to me.
Marc:But I was the kind of kid, I fought for my friends.
Marc:And I don't mean that I defended them, that I had to almost... I had to just intrude...
Marc:But I was just so socially awkward, so socially uncomfortable.
Marc:I couldn't call myself a nerd because I didn't have any sort of obsessive focus at the time other than the need to belong to be part of the crew that I thought was cool.
Marc:And man, I went to every length to show up at places where the cool people or people I thought were cool.
Marc:I'm not saying cool in a general sense because I don't know that I was cool ever, but I knew who I wanted to hang out with.
Marc:And Dave was one of those guys from the very beginning of when I met him.
Marc:And we talk about the whole thing.
Marc:It's a long interview.
Marc:I've known him longer than I've known CK, longer than I've known just about anybody.
Marc:And I first met him in college and I thought he was the funniest fucking guy I'd ever met in my life.
Marc:And he went to another school.
Marc:We never became friends.
Marc:But years later, when I went back to Boston, he was around.
Marc:I'm like, I got to fucking be friends with that guy.
Marc:How do I be friends with that guy?
Marc:I was one of those guys.
Marc:And it takes a lot for me to admit that, that to be so awkward.
Marc:I was never the guy that people wanted to hang around.
Marc:I'm not sure I'm that guy now.
Marc:Obviously, some people want to talk to me.
Marc:They sit here and talk to me and they come over and talk to me.
Marc:But I was never the guy that's sort of like, what's Marin doing?
Marc:Let's go hang out with Marin.
Marc:I was more the guy that's sort of like, oh man, Marin.
Marc:Yeah, and I've talked about that before, but I so badly wanted to be friends with Dave and that crew because I thought he was so fucking funny when I moved back to Boston after...
Marc:After L.A.
Marc:and after I'd ripped my brain wide open and I was certain I had some sort of profound, multi-tiered, elaborate understanding of why the way things were the way they were.
Marc:And I was pretty sure I had some important part to play in it.
Marc:But boy, I was an angry barista.
Marc:And these guys would come in, Cross would come in, Keitlinger would come in.
Marc:And I just so wanted to hang out with them.
Marc:And I think I kind of imposed, perhaps that's the word I was looking for, that I just made sure I would show up where people were and I would go out of my way to go, where are you guys going?
Marc:Where are you going, Dave?
Marc:How can I hang out with you, Dave?
Marc:Are you going to be at that place, Dave?
Marc:Can I can I give you a ride?
Marc:I mean, I was that kind of guy like, you know, let me take you over there.
Marc:So at least I know we'll be hanging out and I know that I'll know where you are.
Marc:I'm not proud of that part of my past, but I pursued Dave Cross as a friend, you know, in a very, very aggressive way.
Marc:And we are friends.
Marc:You know, we remain.
Marc:There's still that thing we have between each other.
Marc:It's a little bizarre.
Guest:I mean, we're going back.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:So many years.
Guest:89, 90, over 20 years, 22 years.
Guest:But this conversation is one of those conversations between guys sharing memories of a long time ago and kind of putting things back together.
Marc:He ended up doing real well for himself.
Marc:I'm doing okay for myself.
Marc:But it's hard for me to admit the beginnings of this friendship.
Marc:It usually doesn't work out when you aggressively pursue a friendship because you're going to be annoying and it might not be a friendship you wanted to have in the first place.
Marc:I remember there was one time when I was dating the girl who became my first wife and Dave was living with his girlfriend in Alston.
Marc:And we went over there just to eat and hang out.
Marc:And we finished and we were drinking and we were kind of wasted, all four of us.
Marc:And, you know, the evening was over and I was like, can we just crash here?
Marc:That's kind of weird.
Marc:And I'm thinking about it.
Marc:I didn't bring this up with him in conversation either.
Marc:And he's like, well, yeah, I guess you could just take a cab or, I mean, you have your car.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, I'm a little wasted.
Marc:Why don't you just crash here?
Marc:And we did.
Marc:I remember they were like, well, we just bought this futon because they just moved into this place.
Marc:And me and this woman crashed in their living room.
Marc:And I'm not sure why I'm admitting this to you guys.
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:I didn't talk to him about it.
Marc:Maybe I'm just psychoanalyzing myself for a change.
Marc:And I remember that we crashed here, but we ended up having sex on this brand new futon.
Marc:And it was a black futon.
Marc:And we kind of made a mess.
Marc:And there was undeniable sex mess on this brand new futon.
Marc:And I'm looking back on it.
Marc:I'm like, why the fuck did I have to stay at his house?
Marc:Why didn't I just take a cab home?
Marc:Why did, you know, why did I end up doing that on his futon?
Marc:And then like, you know, when you look at things in retrospect, you know, 22 years ago, I don't know.
Marc:Maybe I was just being territorial.
Marc:Weird.
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:I got no closure for this thing.
Marc:Other than I love Dave Cross and I always get a kick out of him.
Marc:And I'm glad he's my friend.
Marc:And had I brought this up during the conversation, I would certainly apologize for messing up that futon.
Marc:Dave Cross is in the garage, and Dave Cross has been on the show a couple of times, but in a different context.
Marc:This is the first time it's face-to-face.
Marc:No, we did the live one.
Marc:That was face-to-face.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:Yeah, but I've done it twice, right?
Guest:Were they both the same thing?
Guest:Both live?
Marc:No, you did on the phone at the very beginning of the thing.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't remember how that went, but I don't think I upset you then.
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:I don't think I upset you the second time either.
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:The second time was more of a show.
Guest:Yeah, we're having a good time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So why are you here?
Guest:Uh, in your shed?
Marc:No, it's a garage in Los Angeles.
Guest:This is, I mean, I mean, it's not, I don't know.
Guest:I'd have to look up the definition of garage.
Guest:I'm going to go with shed.
Marc:Well, that's a shed.
Marc:See right out there?
Marc:That's a little shed.
Guest:That looks like a trash can.
Marc:No, the behind the door, there's a shed.
Guest:Oh, I don't, I, I didn't bring my x-ray vision.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Sorry.
Marc:Well, no, if you take the floor out, there's a garage and this was that right there was an old workbench that I left in there.
Marc:Somebody did work in here and like right where we're sitting, they would, the car would come in.
Guest:So you're saying a car fit where we are and they did work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, no, I mean, maybe they pulled it in halfway and opened the hood to work.
Marc:But I'm not making this up.
Guest:They went up to crawl out through the windshield.
Marc:This isn't big enough for a car.
Guest:All right.
Marc:It's not important.
Marc:You're in Los Angeles and I get the feeling that this is the last place you want to be ever.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, well, I'm out here.
Guest:Part of the problem is I keep coming out here.
Guest:I've been away for the better part of two years, and when I can get home, which is now a combination of New York City and a place I have upstate...
Guest:I really, really like it there, especially divvying up my time 100% of the time.
Guest:I love it there.
Guest:And I don't, you know, I like my kind of moment to moment in LA because if I'm here, it's usually it means my girlfriend's here and hanging out with her family who I love and my friends out here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But when you don't have a lot of stuff to do, like, thank God, you called me and said, come and do this, because I'd just be sitting around...
Marc:In L.A.
Guest:In L.A.
Guest:Not even just L.A., but on the west side, which I like the weather there, but man, I hate those people.
Guest:Those annoying, pseudo-hippie, anarchy, raw food, ignorant, proselytizing.
Guest:Progressively ignorant.
Guest:That's the worst.
Marc:Progressive ignorance is the worst.
Guest:It's, you know, just so much attitude.
Guest:And it just bums me out.
Guest:And you're stranded there.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And as you know, from our back to back, I was supposed to do this yesterday.
Guest:But, I mean, you're right.
Guest:I could have rented a car.
Guest:But I'm only here for five days.
Guest:So, you know, how often am I going to need a car, really?
Marc:In Los Angeles?
Marc:Probably never at all.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:What I mean is because I'll be doing stuff with my girlfriend.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or friends or whatever.
Guest:So occasionally something comes up and then I'm like, and then everyone, everyone makes fun of me for not renting a car.
Marc:Oh, so it wasn't just me?
Guest:It's not just you.
Guest:But for the one thing that I need.
Guest:And all I did was postpone this to the next day and look, everything, I've got my future mother-in-law's car.
Marc:You're using your future mother-in-law's car.
Marc:You're using the family car.
Guest:Yeah, cheap.
Guest:I'm cheap.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Guest:Are you?
Guest:I'm not normally cheap, but I'm practical.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm more of the Scottish stereotype than the Jewish stereotype.
Guest:I'm not hoarding money and counting gold, you know, shekels.
Guest:But rather I go like, look, I'm not going to rent a car for a week if I'm only going to use it once.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if it's for Marin's podcast, fuck it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll do it the next day.
Marc:Why should I spend an extra $72 for a compact that hurts?
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:That's part of the problem.
Guest:I go large.
Guest:I get full on- SUV?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Humvee.
Guest:Escalade.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Escalade.
Guest:Tricked out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's $900 a day.
Marc:Oh, so you're the guy at the counter going, does it have rims?
Marc:Do they spin the rims?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you finish Todd Margaret?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's all done.
Guest:The story is told.
Guest:It was always meant to be, you know, span.
Guest:The story spans 14 days, so it's told.
Guest:So it's done?
Guest:Yeah, it's done.
Marc:You actually pitched a show that only has a life of 12 episodes?
Guest:No, I didn't have to because it started off, you know, in Britain.
Guest:It started off with them kind of approaching me about doing a show that I could co-produce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then with the potential to...
Guest:sell it to the states and IFC came in kind of after it was established and said we'll run it
Guest:Yeah, and it paid for half the production initially, and then kicked in full-time because this... I mean, it's a common story in this business, but had done this first series, was on Channel 4 in the UK, and then they were all on board to do it again, do the second series.
Guest:So was IFC.
Guest:Everything was great.
Guest:I was going to get a bump up in the budget because it was really low budget.
Guest:And then in the interim, they got a new, Channel 4 got a new, what do you call it?
Marc:Head of production?
Guest:Head of, not production.
Marc:In Britain, it's probably like a night of production.
Guest:Well, they call them a Duke of Sandwich.
Guest:And it was the Duke of Sandwich of- BBC?
Guest:Not production, but I'm spacing on the name.
Marc:But it's basically they- The Duke of Development?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Decide what they're going to put in.
Marc:Oh, the Duke of Programming?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Baron of Earl Witch.
Guest:So she came in.
Guest:She's not a fan of comedy.
Guest:Took all the comedy money out of Channel 4.
Guest:Did you meet her?
Guest:I didn't meet her, but my co-writer knew her from various things, and he had a great anecdote.
Guest:Her name is Jay Hunt, and the C is silent.
Guest:And she's just a shitty person.
Guest:And...
Guest:What was it?
Guest:It was for the BAFTAs, my friend, this co-writer, Sean Pye.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:How do you know him?
Guest:I know him from going way, way back with Todd Margaret.
Guest:I went over there for about a week.
Guest:Oh, he's a British guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They sent me up to meet a bunch of various potential co-writers, co-producers.
Guest:And Sean had the good fortune of being the last guy on the last day.
Guest:And I met a lot of my heroes.
Guest:I mean, I met people who I just couldn't believe I was getting to meet.
Guest:Charlie Brooker, Sam and Jesse from Peep Show.
Guest:There were a number of people who came in, Robert Popper, like, man, I love their work.
Marc:It's so weird.
Marc:I had no idea you were such a British comedy fan.
Marc:I mean, I knew you liked Python and everything, but I don't know the people you just mentioned, and I feel stupid.
Marc:I don't know what it is about me that I don't seem to find time to do a lot of things.
Marc:But when I went to England, I interviewed Stuart Lee.
Marc:I interviewed Tim Key.
Marc:I've interviewed Simon Munnery.
Marc:But these are guys that are stand-up legends.
Marc:Not Tim Key is sort of a new guy, but Stuart Lee and Munnery are stand-up people.
Marc:And I don't seem to...
Marc:I don't lock on to shows, to sketch shows, or to comedies that come out of Britain.
Marc:I don't seek them out.
Marc:I feel a little ignorant about it.
Guest:Well, I mean, I guess you are ignorant about it only because you don't seek it out.
Marc:It seems to me in my mind it was something that you were always kind of geared towards.
Marc:I mean, like when I first met you, it seems that Python really informed your sensibility a lot.
Guest:Oh, huge.
Guest:You know, as a kid, that was the first...
Guest:absurdist like just laugh out loud silly comedy that as I got older you know took on new meanings and had layers to it that I appreciated as an adult almost like those old Batman episodes where as a kid you're like oh it's so funny and then when you watch it again
Guest:You know, 15 years later, like, oh, I didn't even get that.
Guest:That's a total taking the piss out of this thing and this thing, you know, and Python was like that a lot.
Marc:But even more than stand up, it influenced you.
Marc:I mean, like when I met you doing stand up, I mean, your bits were pretty elaborate, pretty character driven, pretty absurd initially.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And again, you met me early, early on as I was developing my voice and probably hadn't even really developed it yet.
Guest:I was still doing... I still had that deep Andy Kaufman influence.
Guest:He was your guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And even Stephen Wright in a sense and hadn't turned into the...
Marc:You hadn't found your, you hadn't given voice to like David Cross's cynicism.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It was different.
Guest:It was like it was fragmented.
Marc:I was co-opting someone else's cynicism.
Marc:Well, no, it was done through characters.
Marc:You know, you were provoking the audience's patience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also challenging their ability to understand, you know, what was funny and what isn't funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was what it was is an elaborate giving up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I'm not even going to try to win you over.
Guest:It's not going to work.
Guest:I give up.
Guest:I might as well just wrap myself in a white flag.
Marc:I still talk about like there are moments because, you know, we knew each other in such a weird developmental period and we're so fucking young.
Marc:They're just moments where that are amazing.
Marc:When you used to go up and open with that gay character.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:It was so fucking good.
Marc:Because people had no idea whether or not you were kidding.
Guest:Yeah, and it's the one true regret I have is that I'll never be able to do stuff like that because people know me.
Guest:But man, for a good decade, going up and doing like the Montreal Comedy Festival and showcasing at the Improv or out here in L.A.,
Guest:When nobody knew who I was and being able to do those weird, you know, on a showcase night, that's the key.
Guest:Eight minutes.
Guest:There's, you know, 20 comics going up there and they're trotting out their best stuff, you know, and it's tight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's a lot of pop culture references and then there's this, what?
Guest:And, you know, as you witnessed, it would miss as often as it would hit.
Guest:And when it missed, it missed really big.
Marc:But did you enjoy that?
Guest:Yeah, because you always have that, in a selfish pussy way, you always have that ability to, if it did bomb, to say, well, that's part of it.
Guest:Or they didn't get it.
Guest:They didn't get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's kind of true.
Guest:It's not like a guy who's bitter because his joke wasn't that funny and, you know, whatever.
Guest:So, I always had that.
Guest:That was a bit of a crutch that I could.
Marc:To do the weird stuff?
Guest:Well, to have that attitude.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, there were some weird bits, though.
Marc:The dancing bit, that was always good.
Marc:I don't remember how that evolved.
Guest:Dancing bit?
Guest:Oh.
Marc:You used to close with it, with the, you know, do the cat.
Guest:Oh, the kid was the hyperventilating.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's how it started.
Marc:Like, you would start.
Marc:I don't remember what the bit was.
Guest:Oh, that's going so far back.
Marc:I don't remember what the bit was, but you're like, I can't.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:And then they'd start the In Excess song.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then you'd start dancing.
Guest:And starting dancing, yeah.
Marc:And then you'd do the cat.
Marc:And then you'd do the- Oh, right.
Guest:Oh, I forgot about that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then there was that one night where you took a roll of toilet paper, you stripped down to your underwear and to music.
Marc:You started running toilet paper around the entire room, like wrapping things in toilet paper.
Marc:That was some extension of that piece, I think.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You don't remember that?
Guest:I don't remember that.
Marc:Most people would remember that if they did that.
Guest:I don't remember that at all.
Marc:Man, you know, those days when we had the run of Catch a Rising Star late night in Cambridge.
Guest:Oh, the best.
Marc:There was a group of people that once the guy who booked the place left-
Marc:Like, you know, this guy, Robin Horton would do the list and, you know, ultimately you and me and a couple other people would start at number six and he'd move us down to 15.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But he would leave at like nine, you know, and when we saw him like put on his dumb parka and get his briefcase and act like we liked him and go, yeah, I'm going to go.
Marc:You know, it'd be like, yes, it was a free for all.
Marc:And then no one could get on stage without someone getting on the back mic going, Mark, Mark, like James Lemur or whoever.
Guest:I was going to say, Lemur, he was probably the king of the subversive, like calling in.
Guest:He would go find where the applications were.
Guest:And we all knew where he hit him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he put him up at that stage.
Guest:top shelf in the office yeah yeah yeah and then lemur would get copy all the information and call the people as robin has the booker and tell him to come down but it's like listen it's going to be pirate themed we want you to dress like a pirate just the cruelest yeah i i never liked that kind of thing but um it always felt bad to me but i liked him on the back mic where no one could get through a set without somebody interrupting and all kinds of fucking weirdness went on
Guest:It was, I remember something Robin said to me when he had me, like, started having me literally close.
Guest:And I was like, what the fuck?
Guest:I mean, I've been doing this for years.
Guest:Why?
Guest:And he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, you're going to school and then left.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, that was his idea.
Guest:Like, we're going to learn you.
Marc:Did you ever get this one where you do a joke and he pull you into the office and goes, that joke you just did, it's page six out of Barry Crimin's notebook.
Right.
Guest:I didn't get that, but I didn't really do that kind of stuff.
Guest:But I can certainly imagine you getting flexured.
Marc:It's a few different numbers.
Marc:That's page three of Barry Crimin's notebook.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Horrible fucking guy.
Guest:So Barry numbers his notebooks?
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:Does he do it first or does he write all his stuff down and then go page one, two, or does he write it before when the page is blank?
Marc:Well, the weird thing was apparently he gave him to Robin for safekeeping.
Yeah.
Marc:I had no idea.
Marc:Memorize these.
Guest:Then give them back.
Marc:And if anybody does anything similar to what I'm doing... I might call you in the middle of the night and ask for what's on page five.
Marc:Do you find that weird as we get older that there's this whole element of like, wait, what happened to that guy?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I mean, I don't know really...
Marc:It's very hard for me to frame it because like, I don't see, like I see points in my life where I'm like, I don't, I could be that guy.
Marc:And I have a tremendous heavy heart about it.
Marc:You know, when I run into people and you're like, what are you even doing?
Marc:Isn't there something heartbreaking about the whole thing?
Guest:Yeah, depending on the person, depending on the path they took and what they did along that path.
Guest:I mean, I think you're as good an example of anybody because you were clearly gifted and talented and you also had a lot of demons and you exacerbated the situation irresponsibly.
Guest:And then you got to a point...
Guest:And you were still able to kind of power through, but you also had sort of plateaued at a point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know what it was that motivated you, nor do I care to know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you eventually cleaned up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're a better person for it.
Guest:You're a better comedian.
Guest:You're a better writer.
Guest:You're better.
Guest:I mean, so there are people who didn't do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But an example of somebody who, and also where we were, well, you got out of Boston before I did, but where we were- Not really.
Guest:No?
Guest:When did you go to New York?
Guest:No.
Marc:I mean, there was that weird thing where we had done, yeah, we can go here and then we'll come back around to Todd Margaret.
Marc:But I mean, what had happened was we were all doing standup and then you and I, I remember we sat down, we wrote the manifesto for cross comedy.
Marc:Cross comedy, yeah.
Marc:I did the first two shows with you, and then I went to New York, and you guys went to LA.
Marc:You, Dombrowski, Groff, it almost seemed like- That was later.
Guest:No, but you were in New York.
Guest:Right, 89.
Guest:Yeah, and I stayed there for another three years in Boston.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't move to LA until 93.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think that's the interesting thing, because that's really where this sense of alternative comedy or whatever started, because what was going on at Catch in the Basement, you know, around the time that you were doing Mr. Or Cross Comedy was it was clear that there were some comics that were never going to play, you know, Knicks or regional acts that there was really at that was about the beginning, like in the early 90s, where it was like, we have to cut our own path to find work for ourselves.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:And you guys decided, you know, you know, it's what it's weird.
Marc:I don't have a lot of regrets, but I don't know that I ever knew how to work with people.
Marc:And I just always had this like dream of stand up and the sense that, you know, you were a huge fan of sketch and you guys were really started to do that stuff.
Marc:And you moved out to L.A.
Marc:in what?
Marc:Ninety three, you said with with with cross comedy, basically with those guys, with those players.
Guest:No, not necessarily.
Guest:I mean, that's not really what happened.
Guest:I reluctantly left Boston.
Guest:And the only regret I have is my pretentious kind of arrogance about purity and comedy and all that bullshit.
Guest:But I got offered- When did that die?
Marc:Because I'm not feeling that-
Marc:Is that gone now?
Guest:I think it's gone.
Guest:I don't know if you're aware, but the threequel to Alvin and the Chipmunks is contractually obligated.
Guest:That's a whole other story that I will get into.
Marc:We should get into that because, you know, okay, let's not do it yet.
Marc:Okay, so, you know, what happened now?
Marc:You didn't want to leave Boston.
Marc:Now, I think people should know that Dave Cross never cut any corners.
Marc:You went out there, you did the horrible gigs, you took the hits, you had several spectacular jobs to make money.
Marc:And I know we've discussed this before, but I tell the story still.
Marc:about medical experiments the medical experiments were great the the one where the the uh an acid story the best that's that to me that's the greatest thing in the world that was pretty funny because you're such a you you always went into these things with a very practical notion of like sort of like oh how bad could it be you know i'm gonna do this they're gonna pay me this and then that'll be that and then you go and you would come up fucking days burping and sick
Guest:Well, yeah, that was also my complete ignorance as to how it would work.
Guest:But the short version of that story is I'd done these medical experiments.
Guest:It's just a lazy person's way to make a bunch of cash.
Marc:Did you give blood as well?
Guest:Yeah, that was the first one I did.
Guest:I didn't give blood.
Guest:Giving blood was part of the thing.
Guest:That's when I had to stay overnight at the place in Jamaica Plain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:with just like toothless truck driver like, wow, so you were a trucker before you became a truck stop gay hooker or which happened?
Guest:Was it the first way around or and now you're here and nobody knows you as buddy, you know, and
Guest:And then I went back.
Guest:It's just an easy way to make a bunch of money.
Guest:I buy a bunch.
Guest:I'm talking about back then it was like $250.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's all I need for a couple weeks.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I did a pretty easy one, what I thought was easy.
Guest:10 in the morning, uh, I believe.
Guest:And then you're released at about five.
Guest:You didn't have to go overnight.
Guest:And it was just, uh, to, to, uh, it was four Sundays of that in a row and it was to test an acid versus placebos.
Guest:And, um, uh, so the first morning I went in, I think Rich Turiel, uh, drove me in there.
Guest:I remember Louie drove me in one time, uh,
Guest:and I was really hungover.
Guest:We had been up all night.
Guest:We were probably at some loft thing doing a show or whatever, and I was still drunk, and so they had big, big pots, vats of Wendy's chili.
Guest:It was burnt on the bottom.
Guest:They didn't have real people cooking it.
Guest:They just heated it up, and it was burnt, and just nasty, bad, nasty chili, and then Dixie cups of Carlo Rossi red wine.
Guest:Boxed wine.
Guest:Yeah, to give you an acid.
Guest:And it was like 10 o'clock on Sunday, I'd probably had like four hours of sleep and then I was still hungover, still drunk, hungover.
Guest:And just to get myself right, I had probably like five bowls of that chili and probably a good like seven cups of those wine, little cups of wine.
Guest:And then took the pills, da-da-da.
Guest:All right, that's fine.
Guest:See you.
Guest:Left at five.
Guest:Came back the next-
Guest:The next time but I wasn't hungover at all, I got plenty of sleep, I wasn't drunk, I was fresh as a daisy and they come up and they give me five bowls at 10 in the morning, haven't even had any coffee.
Marc:Because that's what you had done before?
Guest:Yes, I had to match each time like what?
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Like, yeah, you have to eat five bowls of chili and you have to have seven glasses of this shitty wine and then hang out with a bunch of losers in this like rec room.
Guest:It was like the waiting room of a Durham, North Carolina bus station at like three in the morning with like a little, you know, 15-inch TV that's showing some game and that's it and some old, you know, field
Guest:field and stream magazines all day with just the worst pain.
Guest:It was awful.
Guest:And then they give you, you might get placebos.
Guest:Like, this isn't helping me.
Guest:This pill doesn't work.
Marc:Oh, that's fucking beautiful.
Marc:And then I remember you were driving around that fucking van delivering fucking envelopes for that goddamn place in Cambridge.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:God, there were some good ones.
Marc:All right, so when you decided to leave Boston, though, what I'm curious about is that, so you left, the Chipmunk movie we'll get to, why didn't you want to leave?
Marc:What made you leave?
Guest:Cross comedy was kind of really reaching a very kind of...
Guest:A place that I wanted it, which I had dreamed of, like we were being courted by SNL.
Guest:They were bringing us to New York, putting us up, trying to, you know, we were showcasing.
Guest:People were coming up to Boston.
Guest:People from New York were coming up to Boston to look at the shows.
Marc:Let me just tell the audience.
Marc:I mean, this was a sketch show that featured you, John Ennis, Orton Dombrowski, John Groff.
Guest:Uh, Paul Kozlowski, uh, uh, John Benjamin, Sam Cedar, um, uh, and, and, and all you guys would, every week there was one of you guys.
Guest:Oh, Carrie Prusa.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know I'm forgetting people.
Marc:Carrie Prusa, Chrisino occasionally, Waterman.
Guest:Oh, Earl Waterman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh, um, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, you and Louie and Janine and Laura Keitlinger and, I mean, people would be coming in from out of town.
Marc:You created this.
Marc:It was really, I think, one of the first, you know, sketch troops or not.
Marc:I don't know if I would call it that, but like a scripted sketch show that kind of came about organically with all standups, really, other than.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it initially, as you and I sat down and wrote this thing up for Robin Horton, the catch guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, initially it was, it took a while to evolve out of there to more of a pure show, but it was kind of to take the piss out of those comics and stand up and open mic nights.
Guest:And it would evolve from an open mic night that I hosted where Robin asked me to host whatever Tuesday's showcase night or whatever.
Guest:And then, so we had fake comics.
Guest:We had people being fake comics.
Guest:We had plants in the audience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There would be five legitimate stand-ups who would, you know, set the tone for the evening.
Guest:And for a good half a year, nobody, I mean, cool people would come in and heard about it and would come in.
Guest:But all the people, the tourists and stuff that were coming had no idea.
Guest:80% of the audience had no idea what we were doing.
Guest:And then it would be full on show with videotapes and we would leave through a back door and the video screen would go and we'd continue the bit that we had pre-taped.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had themes to them, a lot of early Mr. Show ideas where there was a beginning, middle and end and it was kind of paid off and themes.
Guest:And then it evolved from there after...
Guest:uh i don't know after about a year and a half so in 92 people were starting to really realize it yeah we had a we had a run at the charles playhouse that's right we had bands playing right and um you know did kind of best of stuff and louis ck would make short films and uh we'd show those and um it was a really cool night you know uh did you meet with lauren and everything
Guest:I did meet with Lauren, but that was after I'd moved to LA.
Guest:Jim Downey was amazingly nice and sweet and really instrumental, whether he knows it or not.
Guest:He gave me an open invitation to come there and write SNL and...
Guest:And when I was a kid, that was literally all I wanted to do was S&L.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I remember visiting and later on visiting in the Sarah Silverman, Dave Attell period.
Guest:And when those guys are riding on there, and that's going way back Janine, I think.
Guest:I don't know if it's pre or post, but it's right around there, Laura Keitlinger.
Guest:And I went and hung out with those guys and they were all friends.
Guest:I remember going to the writer's room and they were just miserable.
Guest:I mean, they were fucking miserable.
Guest:And it was such a poisonous atmosphere and this...
Guest:sense of competitive like cutthroat competition that was foisted upon them that they were put into in this tiny little box and it was really it was a bummer and I thought wow I don't want to do this this seems terrible and I honestly didn't think about it again you just let it go the illusion was destroyed
Marc:Yeah, I mean... What SNL seasons had the most impact on you?
Marc:Was it like the first one?
Guest:Oh, definitely when... Yeah, the first stuff when I was a kid.
Guest:I was like, you know, I was a teenager.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:Because like, it's weird.
Guest:That thing didn't exist.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I got an email recently from a guy who's like, why do you keep talking about SNL?
Marc:It sucks.
Marc:And...
Marc:And I'm like, well, it's SNL.
Marc:And there have been good times and bad times.
Guest:For so long in the last, I'm pulling this number out of my ass, but let's say 20 years, it's all about kind of making an impact that night, ratings.
Guest:They're getting people who are promoting a country western album and some dumb movie.
Guest:And that's what it is, you know?
Guest:And they have to service those people.
Guest:They have to service Paris Hilton.
Guest:They have to service... These people aren't... There's nothing interesting or engaging about them.
Guest:And you're trying to get past that crap to get to the nuggets of like... And they've got amazing, amazingly talented people.
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:I mean, just top notch.
Guest:But...
Guest:When you have to write a show in a week and you have to service somebody who's not funny or a good performer and you have to service their personality and you have to – a number of those sketches have to be about current pop culture bullshit that you or I as adult males don't give a shit about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:um you know it's it's less of an engaging show but it wasn't always like that they had fucking ron ziegler on as a host i mean they had the coolest it was an interesting show yeah you know they had elvis costello on right back when nobody knew who that was and they had uh you know fear was on i mean i remember fear because that was belushi's band yeah they i mean they had like it was it was uh it was a uh who was it was a relevant show yeah who was your guy belushi
Guest:No, Bill Murray.
Guest:Bill Murray was my guy.
Guest:I mean, I liked all of them, but Bill Murray, pretty much.
Marc:Okay, so you met with Lauren.
Marc:Was that an interesting encounter?
Guest:It was only for its lack of interesting.
Guest:I have one...
Guest:impression that I do of it.
Guest:And I've only met him this one time.
Guest:And, you know, I don't have anything negative to say about him at all.
Guest:I only know him through this meeting.
Guest:Just to give it a little backstory, this is back when Julia Sweeney was on the show and they were going to hire some temporary writers to write for the women on the show with them in mind.
Guest:And because of the past cross comedy stuff and Jim Downey and because of Julia and I knew some of the other people, I got, you know, they said, oh, you should meet with Cross.
Guest:He's here.
Guest:He did this thing.
Guest:He worked on the Stiller Show and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:So, I had a meeting with him.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:The first impression is, first of all, we talked for about 40 minutes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I left that meeting and I could not tell you, to this day, I can't tell you whether he liked me, whether he was impressed with me, what he thought of me.
Guest:I just, after 40 minutes, just don't know.
Guest:When I came out of there, my friends were like,
Guest:holy shit, you talked to him for 40 minutes.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:He must love you.
Guest:And I was like, oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And this is my very brief encapsulated impression of my 40 minutes in that I'll be Lauren and I'll ask you a question.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So, David, what do you think of alternative comedy?
Yeah.
Guest:Uh, well, it's a- Because I'll tell you what I think.
Guest:It's a, and that was, it was like that for about 40 minutes.
Guest:And again, it's not, that's not like a negative thing.
Guest:I didn't leave there going like, what a dick.
Marc:I just, I left there with just, I had no idea what he thought of me or- It's interesting though, because that whole thing stuck in his craw.
Marc:Because when I had the meeting with him, he was like, I don't know what you think you're doing below 14th Street.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm like, we're just doing shows.
Guest:And when I say that, I don't, you know, I'm not making that question up because I remember that question more than anything.
Marc:No, no, it definitely fucked with him.
Guest:And I was thrown off a little bit because he clearly- It was because it had gotten an intention in the New York Times.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And, uh, but whatever I, you know, so when you moved to LA, it was to do the Stiller show.
Guest:Yes, it was with the job.
Guest:It was to move there.
Guest:Um, I had been in LA briefly in the eighties, you know, that's a whole other story.
Marc:Um, not from when I first ran into you with my girlfriend who I chased down to the college who was at summer school and you were, uh, staying at a college dorm on the floor.
Marc:That's going so far back with John Ennis and
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was in a supply closet in the back of a kitchen at a frat in Westwood.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And I remember you had this amazing business idea.
Marc:You went and somewhere you bought- I didn't buy it.
Guest:I stole it.
Guest:You stole it?
Guest:You're talking about the jewelry?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was working at a jewelry place and- In what capacity?
Guest:just whatever uh a girl that i had a um a very very brief ill-fated kind of fling with that didn't even wasn't even a fling but a relationship with whatever um had friends out in la and when i was going to la uh she hooked me up with them to get a job and uh because initially i didn't you know uh uh ennis was selling weed and we were living in that car and uh
Guest:That was in the very beginning, and then things kind of panned out.
Guest:We got a place to stay, and I got some money from somewhere.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I remember winning $45 at playing Trivial Pursuit, and that sort of was rent for a week.
Marc:That must have been like, what, $87?
Guest:uh 86 i think yeah that makes sense yeah um so you're working at this jewelry store so morgan it wasn't a store it was a they they uh they manufactured it and uh i would do everything from collections to shipping to just um but it was crap
Guest:It was crap but they were very nice to hire me and they were happy to have me there and occasionally I'd go back to their place that people owned it and I would do some babysitting or something or just whatever.
Guest:They were very nice to me and then they'd give me money to take a cab because I was living in Koreatown.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, and I would just pocket the money and take a bus and sit on the bus.
Guest:And I would, I was just high constantly.
Guest:I'd wake, I'd wake and bake.
Guest:It took me three buses to get there.
Guest:I was in Koreatown.
Guest:I was off Cloverfield and like in the twenties in Santa Monica.
Guest:And then I'd go to this shitty job and, um, you know, and I, I, I just, wait, weren't you, were you at the comedy store?
Marc:You were.
Marc:No, I know what it was was like Sarah.
Marc:Sarah had that I had dated her and then she went away for the summer to do summer school.
Marc:And she was at UCLA and staying at that that place where you and and I guess you or John Ennis were seeing some girl who lived there.
Marc:And like it was it was at that frat house in Westwood because I chased her down because I got jealous.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:That's when I ran into you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I ended up like, you know, staying with her and I was furious because I thought she was fucking somebody else.
Marc:And you and I only knew each other vaguely from meeting when you were at Emerson.
Marc:We met at Stitches.
Marc:So we were not.
Marc:It wasn't like any of we weren't established or anything.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:I was just completely surprised to see you.
Marc:And there I was jealous and freaked out and posing on this girl.
Marc:And then you and John come out of nowhere and you were fucking hilarious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just remember sitting around getting high and playing guitar and you did, I have a never ending song of love for you.
Marc:And you guys were just so fucking hilarious.
Marc:And then I just remember we're all going to the beach and we were hung over and you had this like, you know, this tablecloth and all this fucked up earrings and you were going to sit there in Venice and sell these earrings.
Guest:Well,
Guest:To our credit, we did have a, you know, as I was saying before, I'd just take little things from, I'd take a glue gun.
Guest:I'd take glue sticks one day.
Guest:I'd take some, the ceramics the other day.
Guest:I'd take the back in the other day.
Guest:And then eventually compiled enough of them so that we had this tray and John and I had a whole spiel and we just set up on the boardwalk in Venice.
Guest:They're like, hey, ladies and gentlemen, mother, you know, kid tested, mother approved, you're going to love these earrings.
Guest:And we had this pattern.
Guest:You got an act.
Yeah.
Guest:We had an act and then somebody from there was some syndicated show called Putting on the Hits where you'd lip sync.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're like, they stroll by and like, hey, you guys got some funny shtick.
Guest:We're going to put you on Putting on the Hits.
Guest:Yeah, great.
Guest:And they filmed us.
Guest:You know, just doing our thing for about two, three minutes.
Guest:Of course, we told everybody we were going to be on TV.
Guest:Never made it on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Made people sit through that stupid show.
Guest:But the other... We didn't sell too many.
Guest:We sold a handful.
Guest:But then there was...
Guest:We were really high and this woman goes to buy the earrings.
Guest:And as she's buying them, the backing comes off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just the glue is like, it's a big strand.
Guest:It looks like honey.
Guest:And she's like, well, what's going on?
Guest:I can't, I'm not going to buy this.
Guest:I want my money back.
Guest:And I was really high and I was like, oh, no, that just happened because of the sun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she's like, so I'm not allowed to wear these outside?
Guest:You know, preferably they're indoor earrings.
Guest:And it was pretty much what ended that business.
Marc:Were you part of that thing where like when we were in college, a Catch a Rising Star auditioned a bunch of people to do that Catch a Rising Star live on campus?
Guest:No, but that's what John was.
Guest:John did that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's where I first met John Ennis and Joe Murphy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think they did a bit together.
Marc:It was almost a Python-esque bit.
Guest:Yeah, John and Joe were very, very close, and we were in a sketch group in college at Emerson together called This is Pathetic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, let's get back to ... Okay, so you're going to LA with a job.
Guest:Yes, I went to LA with a job and a lot attitude, which I regret.
Guest:I'm a bit embarrassed by, but ... Which attitude?
Marc:The like, everything sucks, this is real comedy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:And I remember being at a loft party.
Guest:In fact, Morphine was playing.
Guest:I think Morphine had just started and formed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:I had talked to Tim Sarkis, who's now my manager.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who kind of facilitated the stuff after Janine Garofalo had me send writing samples from Cross Comedy to Ben Stiller Show and Judd Apatow and Ben and...
Guest:And I got the offer.
Guest:But it was one of those things like, you have to be here right now.
Guest:You have to be here in three days.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I remember it's so embarrassing and so pretentious.
Guest:Like sitting there, I'd gotten off the phone and I'm there with my plastic thing, a shitty keg beer.
Guest:I'm sure I was with Rivers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just going like, everything's going to change.
Guest:And I was right, but I was also such an artsy douche about it.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know, man.
Guest:LA, Hollywood.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:Bunch of prostitutes.
Guest:Artistic prostitutes.
Guest:Everything's going to change.
Guest:My whole life is going to change.
Guest:You know, just awful.
Guest:What life?
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, that's the other thing.
Guest:But the thing that made me accept it in my heart so quickly, even though externally I was like, I don't know, man, I'm struggling with this idea.
Guest:I was so fucking over being poor.
Guest:And you remember the last apartment I was in, which you called the Loser Museum or maybe that was Frasier or whatever.
Marc:Well, I used to stay there occasionally when you were your girlfriends.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:At the projects.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Roach infested.
Guest:We'd turn up the oven for heat.
Guest:For heat, yeah.
Guest:And Boston winter.
Guest:It was just a depressing area that hadn't been built up.
Marc:Remember those sandwiches though?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The meat sandwiches, like the four or five meat sandwich from that five guys place or whatever, right?
Guest:No, Hi-Fi on Mass Avenue.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That place was amazing.
Guest:The meat bomb.
Guest:The meat bomb.
Guest:Holy fuck.
Guest:That was insane.
Marc:It was sausage, steak.
Guest:Sausage, pepperoni, steak, meatballs.
Guest:What else would they have?
Guest:It was all hot stuff.
Marc:Yeah, the cheesesteak stuff.
Guest:Oh, man, it was crazy.
Marc:God, it was fucking great.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I remember those days.
Guest:I was so tired of being poor.
Marc:Meat bombs and skin rashes.
Marc:That's what I remember about those days.
Guest:And a lot of ramen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I knew every happy hour in Cambridge and Boston where to get the all-you-can-eat wings if you buy a pint of Schlitz or whatever.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:Good times.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, we're getting mired in the past.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So, you go there and you get the gig and you're with Ben and Judd and Bob and you write the fuck out of that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:It was very intense very quickly.
Guest:I had never written in that way and I've never been in that atmosphere before.
Guest:I couldn't have told you anything about how a TV show works and the writing staff.
Guest:literally the only thing I knew was Mary Tyler Moore or the Dick Van Dyke show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and, uh, I was not used to writing for somebody else.
Guest:And in particular for somebody else who, um, was really wanted to focus on like, uh, impressions and parodies, specific parodies.
Guest:Ben.
Guest:Ben.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, and,
Guest:you know uh i i got one i i contributed to a bunch of things um here and there like just just added a line or two uh if that much for for certain other things there were a couple things we did that um uh we shot once and i don't think aired this thing that was supposed to be a running thing and then i did
Guest:I only really did two, on my own, two bits that were on there.
Guest:It was this- The Poodertooth bit?
Guest:T.J.O.
Guest:Poodertooth.
Marc:That was the best bit.
Guest:And that sort of shows an early example of how my sketches, and even to my stand-up, my old kind of conceptual stuff, had like a twist to it.
Guest:Like it started this way and had a twist, and then it was like a story told.
Marc:And the theme was definitely anti-corporate and definitely satirical in the sense of what corporations are in a way.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:Well, you're talking about a franchise food business that was based on capitalism.
Guest:You're reading way more.
Guest:You're giving me a bunch more credit.
Guest:But not really.
Guest:It was silly.
Marc:But it comes out of your head.
Marc:And then as your stand-up evolved, I mean, those are themes that you deal with.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:But it was... But I did that and then The Last Scout, which was... Or Few Good Men or something like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Few Good Scouts, whatever it was.
Guest:But those are the only two bits because I was a mid-season replacement.
Guest:That's why they were like, hung up the phone, you have to be out here, you know, on one day.
Marc:And did you get along with Ben and Andy and everybody?
Marc:Yeah, I mean...
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I had met Ben before that briefly with Janine at the Snake Pit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had been out visiting LA, and this is before the show started up.
Guest:And, you know, we all got along.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I didn't really... And Judd?
Guest:Judd, I hung out with less.
Guest:And, I mean, that guy was super busy.
Guest:Everybody was busy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was...
Guest:writing for shandling writing he was he was yeah i mean and he's producing the show running the show and uh um you know he was he was very busy there was no uh we didn't nobody really hung out socially which which i think was the um the most immediate strange thing to me that i that i figured out within the first two days of work that people just didn't hang out socially yeah um this was
Guest:wasn't about friends or drinking beer no i mean i i i came to learn that but um you know i i can't say that it's been like that with any of my other shows like mr show we all hung out all the time i think it engenders you know what was the evolution of that because you were you writing with bob at ben stiller
Guest:No.
Guest:And Bob and I did not get along.
Guest:I didn't like him very much.
Guest:He was abrasive.
Guest:He was clearly funny and a really good writer.
Guest:But he was a dick.
Marc:Was it that weird kind of acted like your dad thing?
Marc:What have you got going on, David?
Guest:No, we didn't even.
Guest:He kind of fucked with me, too.
Guest:I mean, like, I think enjoyed putting me in this spot.
Guest:And why...
Guest:I don't necessarily blame him.
Guest:I was very, very green.
Guest:I'd never done anything before.
Guest:And they're probably going, who's this kid?
Marc:But also, you're completely different than him.
Marc:I mean, he is a sort of controlling workaholic and you're out of control alcoholic.
Guest:Yeah, and I was very carefree about stuff and I was very, I didn't respect the institution and I didn't approach things in the same way.
Guest:And after work, I would get any of the other writers that I could.
Guest:It was mostly Brent Forrester and occasionally Rob Cohen.
Guest:And please, can we go to the snake pit?
Guest:It was this bar.
Guest:It was not too far from where we work, the offices.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:uh, you know, I just want to hang out.
Guest:Let's find out about each other.
Guest:Let's shoot the shit.
Guest:We're all funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's socialize.
Guest:And, and, but most people would go their separate ways.
Guest:And, um, there really was very little socializing.
Guest:And then when they're in production, I mean, it's, they're, they're working, they're busy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But so I was mostly being the other writers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but it was like pulling teeth to get anybody to hang out.
Guest:And, uh, um,
Guest:and that's just not the way that's just not my personality, you know?
Guest:And, um, uh, on any show subsequently that I've worked on, you know, you hang out.
Guest:I mean, they're, it's your writing staff.
Guest:I assume you hired them for a reason.
Guest:You, you know, and we, so any show, Mr. Show or, you know, um, any, anything I've done.
Marc:Well, what, so then how, if you and Bob didn't get along, how did you end up working together?
Yeah.
Guest:Um, after the stiller show ended and, um, you know, we still had mutual friends and I just fucking moved out here and I had just been thrown into this thing.
Guest:And, and I was still very, very close with Janine and Janine was dating Bob.
Guest:And, uh, so we ended up hanging out more and he became, um, uh, especially out of that environment, um,
Guest:just sort of fucking around i think he saw that i was funny and and kind of worth his attention and um and then eventually i can i can tell you the first time that i remember us really connecting it was a party at laura milligan's at her old place with um jerry finale and you know that crazy crazy nonsense over there and uh
Guest:we were at some party and we were in the kitchen, which was a kind of tight cramped thing at Milligan's.
Guest:And, um, we started riffing the bit that eventually became the, um, can't remember the name of it, but the pot, you know, the pan selling the pans, whatever that thing was early Mr. Show sketch.
Guest:Uh,
Guest:You know, kiss the pan, the pan kisses you back and all that stuff.
Guest:And we just sort of riffed on that, his character and my character and just sort of doing this goofy stuff.
Guest:And just making each other laugh.
Guest:And that was the first time I remember really connecting in that extra level way.
Guest:And then shortly after that, around that time, was all the Diamond Club shows, which I would imagine dozens of people have mentioned on this podcast.
Marc:No, no one has.
Guest:No, get out of here.
Guest:The Diamond Club shows?
Marc:No, I don't even know what they are.
Guest:No, you know what I'm talking about.
Guest:The shows at the back of that disco in Hollywood, that's where Tenacious D kind of started and Mr. Show basically started, but before it was Mr. Show.
Guest:And we had these, Dave Rath was putting together these.
Guest:Right.
Guest:People, and we'd all, we'd have a night.
Guest:And I did some stuff on Bob's sketch night, and Bob did some stuff with me, and we wrote together, and we wrote these ideas.
Guest:And on both of our shows, which I think were like back-to-back, week-to-week, one week after the other, and...
Guest:They were clearly... I mean, we had written these other things and did some stuff with other people.
Guest:But those were the... I mean, on both our nights, like just stand out.
Guest:And then we decided, well, let's write a thing together.
Guest:And it was just...
Guest:to to this day the most effortless I've ever written where we were just totally on the same page uh uh elevating each other's idea uh kind of adding edit you know editing it in a in the right way and adding elements and taking it from putting a left turn where a left turn should be and and just creating these really cool bits and fleshing them out and giving them depth and uh
Guest:Um, and it really was just effortless.
Guest:They were just, we were making, making each other laugh and doing that.
Guest:And then, then we put these shows together and, and they were great.
Marc:And you drew from some of your friends from, uh, cross comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, uh, and I had, I had gone to Al's bar in, uh, in downtown.
Guest:I remember that place.
Guest:Yeah, for this thing called No Talent Night.
Guest:Right, I remember that.
Guest:This is like in 90, I guess 93, 94.
Guest:And just looking for people before we had Mr. Show, when it was like sketches and stuff, I was like, oh, I want to find a good comedy novelty song thing to do.
Guest:So I went to No Talent Night.
Guest:You know, thinking I'd see like a guy juggling on rollerblades or whatever and like, oh, you want to do five minutes of the show.
Guest:And that's when I first saw Tenacious D and they had three songs or two.
Guest:They had two songs.
Guest:And I went up to them and I thought Kyle was the leader.
Guest:That's how clueless I was.
Guest:And I approached him afterwards like, this is Jack.
Guest:And I went, and because...
Guest:I've always had this problem.
Guest:I still have it to this day.
Guest:I take things way too literally that are just throwaway things people say are metaphorical.
Guest:And they were, they did, it was a greatest song in the world tribute.
Guest:And he called, he's in the song, he calls Jack his brother.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, Jack calls Kyle his brother.
Guest:So, I was like, oh, they're brothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I'm talking like, hey, I talked to your brother and...
Guest:It's like a nerdy white guy, promoter guy.
Guest:Hi.
Guest:I talked to your brother.
Guest:I seem awfully funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I gave him my information.
Guest:I told him I was doing this show.
Guest:And, you know, I don't know what they initially thought of me.
Guest:But then, yeah, that was like their – I just facilitated an introduction to that world, you know.
Marc:Well, how did like Jay get involved and –
Guest:Jay was from Chicago and Paul Tompkins was from Philly.
Guest:Some mutual friend of theirs put them together and said, you should meet this guy.
Guest:I think your sensibilities would match.
Guest:So those guys got together.
Guest:They had just not been in LA very long.
Guest:And they put together...
Guest:To this day, I would say it's one of the, if not the funniest sketch show I've ever seen in my life.
Guest:It was called The Skates.
Guest:And they did like five or six bits.
Guest:And they were genius.
Guest:And they worked really well together.
Guest:They were two very distinct performers and personalities.
Guest:I think Jay had done a lot of stage stuff in Chicago.
Guest:I don't think Paul did much sketch stuff.
Guest:But he was like starting his stand-up.
Guest:And he has a very unique...
Guest:You know, persona and stand up as well.
Guest:And and they just really almost like Bob and I are completely different people.
Guest:They're different, but they just it was a great mix.
Guest:The writing was fucking so funny.
Guest:Top notch.
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:And there's Paul F. Tompkins and Jay Johnston.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But they came on when we were already doing the show.
Guest:We had done the stage show enough and I think at that point it sold the show idea to HBO.
Marc:So, what point were you in Aspen?
Marc:There's 95, I think, at the Aspen Comedy Festival.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's what I remember.
Guest:I remember that- Were you at that show?
Guest:That was brutal.
Marc:Yeah, it was at this weird saloon.
Marc:It was like a theater in the round.
Marc:You were literally in some sort of pit.
Guest:It was a cowboy bar.
Marc:Yeah, it was like you were in a pit.
Guest:With like its own little... I mean, they manufactured... It was a dance floor.
Guest:It was a dance floor.
Guest:It was a dance floor.
Marc:They manufactured... And you were showcasing for Brillstein, right?
Yeah.
Guest:For HBO, Brillstein was the one who kind of got us there and made HBO give us a slot.
Marc:And that was when that festival was really sort of like, take a look at what we might do.
Marc:And that was also the first time I saw Bernie Brillstein in person, and it was in the bathroom.
Marc:And I'd walked into the bathroom, and he was at a urinal with his entire pants down around his ankles.
Marc:He was standing up against the urinal.
Guest:He was a big boy.
Marc:Yeah, with his pants down.
Marc:And I'm like, that's Bernie Brillstein.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't have much of a choice.
Guest:That guy is a fucking legend, man.
Guest:I don't have, I'm nothing but superlatives to say.
Guest:I'm so happy I got to meet him and he was a part of my life before he died.
Guest:He's just a legend.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:Amazing guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:Did you spend time with him?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I mean, over the years, yeah.
Guest:He was a producer of Mr. Show and subsequent other things.
Guest:And I just, I think the greatest guy I've met in Hollywood, you know, in that world.
Guest:Just his stories.
Guest:He's a, there's no bullshit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a nice guy.
Guest:He's magnanimous.
Guest:He's...
Guest:He's legendary and his stories are almost Forrest Gumpian of like... He was at Lenny Bruce's Carnegie Hall concert kind of by chance.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He discovered the Muppets by chance.
Guest:Like, you know, and he started out... I think he's one of those William Morris mailroom guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:He produced Hee Haw.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, just stuff like, what?
Guest:You did Hee Haw?
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:I didn't give a fuck.
Guest:I didn't know what I was doing.
Marc:So why did Mr. Show, how many episodes did you do?
Marc:How many seasons?
Guest:four seasons but two of them were very truncated the first was you know an experimental four and then we got to we got to do two more the next year two more fours we did four and then we did six yeah then we did ten and then another ten and then we did three best of's that were all their own unique self package we'd stick things into this other kind of
Marc:And you toured a little bit with it live?
Guest:Yeah, I wish we had done more.
Guest:We did a show in 2004, I want to say, called Hooray for America, which is based on a script Bob and I wrote.
Marc:And did you feel like it was done or were you mad that it was over?
Marc:No.
Guest:Both.
Guest:I knew it was done for me and I felt an immense... I just didn't want to have that life anymore.
Guest:You had no personal life and we worked really, really hard.
Guest:We worked in every single capacity of that thing where we would...
Guest:Bob and I would meet before the writers even came in officially.
Guest:We'd meet for weeks and come up with ideas and write some bits.
Guest:Then the writers would come in and then you're pre-producing, producing, doing the post on it.
Guest:And then as you're finished the last post and you've turned it in, then you have to start doing press for that thing that's coming up.
Guest:And, you know, it was nine and a half months.
Guest:You had two and a half months off.
Marc:And Bob is so diligent and so...
Guest:bizarrely driven I've never worked that hard in my life and I appreciate it and I'm glad I did and it taught me how to work hard on other things and I don't regret any of that but it also after four years was like okay and we also had enough of each other
Guest:Oh, I don't think it was that.
Guest:It was just, I just wanted to move on in, in, you know, um, in my career and in my personal life.
Guest:I mean, I just, and I didn't want to live in LA.
Guest:Um, and, uh, and then when they moved the show from Fridays at its comedy block, HBO's comedy block with the Chris Rock show and Mr. Show.
Guest:And they moved us to Monday at midnight.
Guest:It's over.
Guest:It was over.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was done.
Marc:They'd put you out to pasture.
Marc:Now, how, how, uh,
Marc:When you decided on the cargo shorts.
Guest:That was a conscious decision I made.
Marc:And Bob made the suit.
Marc:Was that a discussion you had?
Guest:That was based on how, and there was never any discussion outside of like, oh, what should we wear?
Guest:I don't know, wear what we normally wear.
Guest:When we did the stage shows, we never talked about it.
Guest:Bob would wear a suit.
Guest:That's what he felt comfortable in.
Guest:He'd wear a suit.
Guest:He wore a suit when he did his one-man shows.
Guest:And you know me.
Guest:When I did stand-up, I'd have shorts and a T-shirt and a flannel.
Guest:So that was it.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:We were just like, you be you, I'll be me, and that's how we'll dress.
Guest:And guess what?
Guest:It's fucking hot in L.A.
Guest:most of the time.
Guest:So I was about comfort.
Guest:Obviously, I didn't, you know, I'm not a fashion icon.
Marc:Well, the reason why it's so important, you know, all this stuff is that for a lot of comedy nerds, I mean, those shows, Ben Stiller and Mr. Show were like really starting points for a lot of things.
Marc:And like you look at the guys that wrote for that, like Aukerman and Dino and Jay and Brian Poussain and, you know, all those guys, you know, went on to big careers.
Marc:What happened with the movie?
Guest:With Run, Ronnie, Run.
Guest:Man, that's such a long, depressing, boring story.
Guest:It was a creative collective that we all assumed was going to work the same way we did and it did on Mr. Show.
Guest:Turned out not to be that way, much to the dismay of Bob and I. And...
Guest:there were personal fallings out for I think obvious reasons and then just a bit of a power move and that combined with
Guest:The unfortunate timing of Mike DeLuca, who was at New Line, who championed the script, being fired while we were in production.
Guest:And so nobody wanted to do anything with it.
Guest:And that combined with a very...
Guest:um, just primitive, uh, uncreative, ignorant idea of marketing the film and what the film was.
Guest:And, and we just lost, you know, control.
Marc:And we had, is there bad blood between any of the, the people on the creative side?
Um,
Guest:It's been smoothed over.
Guest:I know Bob and Troy have... Troy was the producer of Mr. Show?
Guest:Director.
Guest:Yeah, he was a producer-director.
Guest:He was amazing.
Guest:At Dakota?
Guest:At Dakota.
Guest:He was as instrumental for the show's success as Bob and I was.
Guest:He was...
Guest:What he did for no budget, I mean, he was really, really important.
Guest:He was the guy behind the scenes.
Guest:I say without hesitation, he was as important as any other element.
Guest:And, you know, we made our piece.
Guest:Bob and he made their piece.
Guest:And, you know, I've worked with him a couple times, you know, since then.
Guest:And, you know, he's a really talented guy.
Guest:I just think it was unfortunate the way everything... Well, I know it's unfortunate.
Guest:And I... That movie is...
Guest:30% of what it could be.
Guest:I think it could have been a really funny, cool, interesting, Mr. Show type movie.
Guest:And also, I should say, in fairness, our initial script, and we did numerous revisions, the Ronnie Dobbs story was only a third of the story.
Guest:That was the thread that took you to these other, I think, very cleverly as they went cross country to these other sketches.
Guest:And it became less and less of that with our new line notes and more
Marc:It was a classic story of the studio fucking everything up.
Marc:Now, let me just get to this before we run out of steam, that it seems to me that your evolution as a stand-up in your later career, the big shift was that you were able to play off the popularity of the mixture show and draw in an automatic audience and then begin to say what you're really feeling.
Guest:And that's what makes you change.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because as I referenced before, all of a sudden I couldn't do any of those other things.
Guest:You can't do characters that are going to look like a fucking John Leguizamo douche.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you can't do any of that stuff.
Guest:And...
Guest:You know, and I always had a distaste for the kind of people who just did 90% of their stuff was just pop culture and shit.
Guest:And I still have a distaste for it and I don't respect it and I don't care about that stuff.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it forces you to do other stuff.
Guest:And that, you know, eventually in the last tour and DVD and special and all that shit I did was much more personal stuff, more anecdotal.
Guest:You know, I just talked about the decades and decades of drug and alcohol abuse and what that's turned me into now that I'm 47 and I'm starting to pay the price for that.
Marc:In what way are you paying the price for it?
Guest:Loose bowels.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:You've always had that.
Guest:It's reached a new level.
Guest:It's more than that.
Guest:That's the easy jokey thing to say, but there are consequences to back when you're-
Guest:younger and you're you know you're immortal and yeah I'm fine I'm in better health than I should be and I when I turned 40 I went and got a full physical blood stool urine everything heart rate I mean everything full on everything you can possibly do and I was as you might imagine I was like okay I've really abused myself for a long long time and I'm waiting to hear this
Guest:terrible report and i told the doctor i was like there's no reason to lie you know i know it's gonna be on record and i told him what i did and told him what my what my nights were like and what my and back and back when i when i mostly booze though weren't you no not just i mean there was that but when i moved to new york oh you got into pharmaceuticals right
Guest:I, everything, man.
Guest:I got, I got into the stuff that you're, the last thing you're ever supposed to do, right?
Guest:We know what I'm talking about.
Guest:So, I mean, it was, there was a period where it was like, uh,
Marc:I heard about you during that period and I was concerned that you were putting like... It was pretty bad.
Marc:You were putting, what was that, that you needed something in the rider that, you know, that it was, what was that, that stuff they give babies to... Oh, Pedialyte?
Marc:Yeah, you have to have Pedialyte.
Marc:That was your miracle cure.
Marc:And at some point you were carrying around a fishing tackle box of pills and things.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that was a pretty, in a relative sense, a pretty short period.
Guest:I mean, that was when I first moved to New York.
Marc:Because I always knew you could put away alcohol, but there was a period there where I wasn't in touch with your wife, and I'm like, oh, God, is he all right?
Marc:Do I need to make a phone call?
Guest:I mean, I...
Guest:I could have teetered and not been all right, but I was all right.
Marc:Well, you're pretty much... At the core, you're a fairly practical guy.
Guest:Yeah, I like to think so.
Guest:In fact, the one time... It might be one of the most important decisions and moments of my life.
Guest:I was...
Guest:In London, this is past when I had gotten past the really bad period.
Marc:But your physical was, you came back okay, as I assume.
Guest:I came back okay, and I was shocked, and I kind of, it might have been the worst news that you could have given me, because then I went out and celebrated for the next four years, but like, really?
Guest:There's nothing wrong.
Guest:You checked, and I told you about my, yeah.
Marc:Is that my name on the top of the chart?
Yeah.
Guest:I think I've told you the story about doing crack.
Guest:It was the only time I've done crack.
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:I don't know what you did.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:I was doing shows.
Guest:I was doing a month at the Soho Theater doing six shows a week.
Guest:I've done that place.
Guest:It's good, yeah.
Guest:It's great, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, nice little theater, yeah.
Guest:And did you ever go to Camden when you were there, Camden Town?
Mm-mm.
Guest:There's a guy who's pretty well known.
Guest:Crack guy?
Guest:Well, that, but he's also a rockabilly guy.
Guest:He's super tall.
Guest:He plays at the back of this fish and chips place in Camden.
Guest:And he's like a local town hero.
Guest:And he's good.
Guest:He's really good.
Guest:But he's a drug addict.
Guest:And I ended up...
Guest:Back at his place with some friends and then some new friends.
Marc:And his place was a... And then a third set of friends that might steal things from you.
Guest:Filthy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was like this, but all this stuff was messy and just chaotic...
Guest:Like Hoarders.
Guest:It's like an episode of Hoarders.
Guest:Dirty bed set in Camden up third floor of this council flat or whatever.
Guest:And there was literally a, what do you call it?
Guest:A fish tank with dirty dishes in it.
Guest:Like a shitty art director came in and said, wait, wait, wait, put this in here.
Guest:And and we did crack.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd never smoked crack before.
Guest:And that's my preference is the upper stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I immediately like, holy shit, this is the greatest thing ever.
Guest:This is amazing.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I totally get it.
Guest:And I want more.
Guest:I want more immediately.
Guest:I've never experienced that.
Guest:Like, I want more, this is great.
Guest:There was no real come down.
Guest:I didn't struggle with that at all but I was like, this is the greatest thing ever and you know, I'd had plenty of speed before in different ways and it was kind of like that but times 10 and
Guest:And I loved it.
Guest:And I was willing to, not willing, I was happy.
Guest:I would happily sit and talk to fucking toothless idiots for three hours if I could just, I mean, every, every.
Marc:That's weird because you were never really a Coke guy when I knew you.
Marc:But, you know, because that's what Coke will do to you too.
Guest:Yeah, but Coke is – it's not – it's different.
Guest:Yeah, it's not as intense.
Guest:It's not as intense and it's – Coke's more annoying.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I have nothing against Coke.
Guest:I don't think Coke took anything personally.
Guest:I just want – I don't want to sound like I'm preaching like, oh, Coke's bullshit.
Guest:I mean, Coke's fine.
Guest:It's way overrated.
Guest:It's overhyped.
Marc:It's not that big a deal.
Marc:We understand your position on Coke.
Guest:So –
Guest:But anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're talking to Toothless Idiots for hours about their- Yeah.
Guest:And then we eventually ran out of crack and he's like, oh, let's get some more.
Guest:And I really wanted some more.
Guest:But at this point, it's like 5.30, 6 in the morning.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I have a show to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I swore many, many years ago, I swore to myself that I would never, ever, ever cancel a show because I was fucked up.
Guest:And if I did that, then I've reached a turning point.
Guest:And, which meant that I was going to have to go do that show.
Guest:And I was going to have to fucking struggle through it.
Guest:Yeah, sweating.
Guest:Sweating and, you know, and to teach myself a lesson.
Guest:And I was a professional and blah, blah.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:And I knew that if I stayed around, even though I wanted to, I really wanted to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I stayed around, that my life would change.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You're at a crossroads.
Guest:I was literally at a figurative crossroads.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I knew that I would have canceled my show.
Guest:And, you know, the whole run was sold out and everything.
Guest:And the reason I canceled it was because I was smoking crack.
Guest:and i don't ever want to become that person i'm stronger than that um i'd always been stronger than that and and i left and i you know i did the show i i kind of probably got normal and sobered up around you know probably an hour before the show you know went home slept as much as i could and um uh that's the worst sleep
Guest:Yeah, it was very fitful.
Guest:It was also during this brutal summer that England was going through and there was no ventilation in the studio in the flat I was staying in.
Guest:It was really just ugly and, you know, bad sweaty.
Marc:And your brain aches.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I did the show and it was fine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was back to normal.
Marc:No one knew the turmoil.
Marc:No one knew.
Marc:That you were at a crossroads just hours before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I so wanted to stay there.
Guest:And I knew if I did that I would become that person.
Guest:And so, yeah, my record's still good.
Guest:And I have not done crack since.
Marc:So have you tempered your lifestyle a great deal?
Marc:I noticed you had some tea.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, for practical reasons, yeah.
Guest:When I'm working, I don't indulge.
Marc:But what is your primary indulgence?
Marc:It's still booze, right?
Guest:It's whatever's there.
Guest:It is and will be, I think, just for accessibility, it'll be alcohol.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:And I like alcohol and I like alcohol.
Guest:i like the sociability of it you know i don't sit and drink by myself but i like going out and i happen to live in a city that's conducive to that kind of thing and um and uh even london too when i was there you got you got big tolerance too though i mean i do i have i have a a strange for my size and physical makeup i have a strange resiliency but um and you never got bloated and weird and
Guest:Well, I'm 47 and I've had definite stages where my metabolism has slowed down.
Guest:And when I go to London, within three days, I'm put on five pounds.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it'll stay.
Guest:It won't go past that really, but you feel it, you carry it around.
Guest:And I have a fairly small frame, so like five pounds all just in my gut and it's beer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You seem to have found some sort of weird home in London around what you do and sort of an appreciation for it.
Guest:I love it now.
Guest:I mean, I kind of vacillated on whether I liked it or not.
Guest:It got lonely a lot when Amber wasn't there.
Marc:And are you getting married?
Guest:I am, yeah.
Marc:How old is she?
Guest:She will be 29 when we're married.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm dating a woman the same age.
Marc:You okay with it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It never really, I mean, my dumb joke is that it never really comes up unless we're discussing drum and bass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, the age difference.
Guest:But it really doesn't.
Guest:I mean, occasionally there's a reference.
Marc:Do you ever have that moment where you're like, I'm going to be old.
Marc:She's going to be 33.
Guest:Um, I mean, I, I have, uh, moments where I think it isn't even later, later.
Guest:Cause I think it even means less later, later, but I have, um, like, you know, I sold my place in the East village and, um, I've been looking to get out of there for about five years now.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:And I feel, you know, we're going to go to Brooklyn and rent for a year and see how we like it.
Guest:And I feel guilty because a lot of the motivation is like, you know what, I've done this.
Guest:I've been doing this for, you know, as we've been discussing.
Guest:I've been doing this since I was a teenager.
Guest:Right, you want to relax already.
Guest:And I just don't, that's not my, you know, I don't, I'm not going to go out going to see bands all night and go drink with the, you know, cast of whatever, you know, do shots.
Guest:I'll do that once in a while, but it used to be all the time.
Guest:And, um...
Guest:And I feel like I'm taking it because of, and this is specifically because of age equaling experience and equaling like, all right, I'm done with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I feel like I'm taking that away from her if she's at the age where it's like she wants to do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I feel like, ah, I've done it.
Guest:I've been doing it for years.
Guest:And that's one kind of slight guilt I feel.
Marc:I guess my feeling is that, like, I've been through a lot and I've been through a couple of marriages and I've had my heart broken in a fairly dramatic way that my fear is that as I get older and more vulnerable because of that, that I just don't know if I could take problems.
Guest:You think you get more vulnerable or less?
Guest:No, more.
Guest:You think you have a hardened shell now?
Marc:No, because I don't know that I ever opened up fully.
Marc:And now I'm starting to relax and I'm more comfortable with myself.
Marc:So I want to have that open so I can have those feelings.
Marc:And I just don't know if I can bounce back from another fucking dramatic heartbreak.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I mean, that's possible.
Marc:We're built to deal with it, whatever.
Guest:I mean, it's a good, you know, it's an interesting point.
Marc:You know what I haven't asked you is like, you know, I've known you a long time.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Is your mom all right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:She's fine.
Marc:And your sis?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, I have two.
Guest:There's the one I'm close with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's doing great.
Guest:She has her own food truck in Atlanta, which is doing really, really well.
Guest:Really well.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:And then you have the one that's sort of gone the way of the townie.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:She's in a trailer park and, you know, with her...
Marc:In Atlanta?
Guest:No, she's in North Carolina.
Marc:Oh, she upgraded.
Guest:Something.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but she's... Yeah, I mean, you know, that's... Everybody's good?
Guest:Everybody's fine.
Marc:As you've gotten more successful, have you ever sought out your old man at all?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:Absolutely not.
Guest:He lives up, you know, he lives in the 60s in New York.
Guest:He lives not, you know, I could, I'm sure I passed by, I don't know where he is, but I'm sure I've ridden my bike past his apartment.
Marc:When was the last time you had any interaction with him?
Guest:It was 19, it was on the phone.
Marc:Trying to remember, I don't think I knew you then.
Guest:No, I don't think, I hadn't moved to Boston yet.
Guest:I was still in Atlanta.
Marc:So having grown up in that way where you don't have this father, do you feel resolution around that in your heart?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I'm resigned to what it's going to be and have been for a while.
Guest:And I've never had that... Not once have I ever had that moment of like, you know, I should let bygones be bygones.
Guest:And, you know, there's nothing in it for me except anger and bitterness and recrimination.
Guest:And I don't know why I would invite that.
Guest:And he doesn't deserve...
Guest:the satisfaction i know i'm being obstinate you know and i know there's a bit of you know uh uh certainly stubbornness but it's stubbornness is just something you apply to the situation you can apply it or not apply it right just it is not going to happen right this is something that we you know i guess there's two ways to go with that because he the he just left right
Guest:Yeah, but then we found out, you know, Wendy and I found out all these shitty things over the years, subsequently, not immediately, but over the years, like, hey, remember this thing?
Guest:You know, what the real deal was, was this.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and just shitty, bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just, you know.
Marc:Yeah, because I guess there's two ways you can go with that.
Marc:Either, like, I'll get peace with this on my own.
Marc:Or I can tell him I forgive him or whatever, but then all of a sudden you give them- But I don't forgive him.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't, nor will I. Right.
Guest:And I hope that I will have children someday soon.
Guest:We've talked about it.
Guest:And I hope I am a exemplary, good, better father for it because I know I just cannot-
Guest:Wrap my head around.
Guest:I know it exists.
Guest:It exists everywhere constantly throughout history.
Guest:And I'm sure we wouldn't have to go far down your street to find somebody who's similar.
Guest:But I don't understand father or mother who...
Guest:just doesn't care about their kids and doesn't... Their level of selfishness supersedes responsibility for a child.
Guest:I don't understand it.
Guest:I don't get it.
Guest:I, you know...
Guest:It's, it's soft and silly to say I have a lack of respect for it.
Guest:I, I loathe it.
Guest:I hate it.
Guest:I don't like those people and I don't, um, there's no excuse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just, it's, uh, I just don't get it.
Guest:And then, and unfortunately in this world, that's how a lot of people are, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In some form or another.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, yeah, there's abandonment, but then there's just emotional neglect and yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just, I know at some point, um, especially as it became the age of my dad, um,
Guest:uh was when he left and he had three kids like i know that feeling were you when you when he left uh i was i just turned 10 or was he there for my i was either about to turn 10 or 10. um i think it was down i think i just turned 10. and what preceded it it was just him leaving
Marc:Yeah, I mean... Was there an event or he just split?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He sat us down and said... My mom and dad sat us down and said... He had just moved us to Georgia from Syracuse or back to Georgia, I should say.
Guest:And when I... I've told you the stories.
Guest:We had no money, zero, nothing.
Guest:And then...
Guest:you know, he basically left to go to Phoenix.
Guest:Uh, he ended up in Phoenix, um, put us in Roswell, Georgia, you know, owing a lot of money.
Guest:My mom had no job, three kids.
Guest:Um, we had come from Syracuse.
Guest:We had been, um, we got kicked out of there and he chased this job in Georgia, which didn't pan out because, you know, again, I was like nine or 10 and, uh, um,
Guest:I subsequently came to find out all the lies and to understand his character and know who he was.
Guest:Is he a con man?
Guest:Not a con man.
Guest:He didn't have thought out cons.
Guest:He would misrepresent himself, lie about stuff.
Guest:He was so proud.
Guest:He was just a bit of a pathological liar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:he was, he was, um, the victim and everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he, it was never his fault.
Guest:The world was against him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The world was against him.
Guest:And, and if he was fired from a job, it wasn't his fault.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Um, you know, again, when you're, when you're 10 and you, and you, and I love my dad, I thought he was fucking awesome.
Guest:Um, you don't really have, uh, anywhere close to the full story, but as you grow up, you, you come to know more stuff.
Guest:And my sister found out more stuff.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:Yeah, he just sort of sat us down.
Guest:Your mom and I are going to get separated.
Guest:He left.
Guest:We didn't see him again until my bar mitzvah, in which he took my bar mitzvah money, asked for it, and took it.
Guest:And...
Guest:But I was happy to give it to him because my dad was back in Georgia.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:This is great.
Guest:And, you know, don't tell your mother.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, don't tell anybody.
Marc:You sign checks over them.
Guest:You got it, Dad.
Guest:You got it.
Guest:You know, I need this to – then I can stay here and be coming out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just don't know that –
Guest:level of psychotic selfishness, you know?
Guest:And as I was saying before, like this idea that there's this guy who got married, had three kids, who knows if he ever really loved my mother.
Guest:And I just imagine him truly thinking, you know what?
Guest:I don't like this being married thing.
Guest:I don't like this lady.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you know, maybe a kid will make me feel different.
Guest:So he has a kid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then they end up having a couple more kids.
Guest:He's like, you know, nah, it's not for me.
Guest:I'll see you guys later.
Guest:Like that is literally, I mean, it's a simplistic way to view it, but that's literally the mindset of this guy going...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look, I gave it a shot, guys.
Guest:You can't blame me.
Guest:I thought it would be my thing.
Guest:It's not.
Guest:So, I'm going to see you.
Guest:I'm going out to the West Coast.
Guest:Y'all take it easy.
Guest:Definitely write.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Write me, call me.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:Oh, in the beginning, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He's my dad.
Guest:I love him.
Marc:And now, has he reached out to you?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:He's very stubborn as well.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:So, it works out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, in, like, okay, let's just address this and then we'll finish up.
Marc:It just, like, how do you...
Marc:Because I know you have this weird contempt for for the the hypocrisy of hipsters and the whole sort of culture of, you know, I do, too.
Marc:But, you know, yet we are embraced by it.
Marc:So, you know, how do you reconcile that on some level that on some level you are amongst front and peers?
Guest:No, but it's not the hypocrisy of hipsters.
Guest:You have to be more specific about that.
Guest:What I have contempt for is the... And it's not a strong contempt.
Guest:I just have distaste for it.
Guest:I don't like being around stereotypes of any nature.
Marc:Or people who abide by... Right.
Marc:People who embody that.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that is a subset of that.
Guest:There's a stereotype to it.
Guest:Sure, I get it.
Guest:I get it, yeah.
Guest:There is a, it's the inherent hypocrisy is I'm so, you know, counterculture.
Guest:I'm not doing, you know, that old joke of, you know, it was, you know, why did the hipster girl burn her mouth on the pizza?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Well, she wanted to eat it before it got cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that kind of idea.
Marc:That's actually an old joke.
Marc:You said that you set that up like the classic Jewish.
Guest:No, you're right.
Guest:That's not old.
Guest:But it's it's that idea.
Guest:You know, I guess when I say it's old, it's just the idea has been there.
Guest:It's talked about, you know, you could apply it to hippies or beatniks.
Marc:You can't you can't wear wisdom or or a life, you know, just because you, you know, adapt to or or.
Guest:You just can't be on your MacBook blogging about steampunks and, you know, submitting yourself for the mustache awards and, you know, tweeting about, you know, some...
Guest:artesian honey place on your iPhone and be counterculture.
Guest:You're not.
Guest:It's just a joke.
Guest:You can't wear those faux retro early 80s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:You know, AIDS era kind of.
Guest:Right.
Guest:All that shit's back.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then say, look how cool I am.
Marc:Or look how individual I am.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Or counterculture.
Marc:I'm counterculture.
Marc:You're in a room full of counterculture individualists who are all wearing roughly the same glasses.
Guest:What do you do?
Guest:What do you do again?
Guest:Oh, I don't watch TV.
Guest:You know, the same person who does- I hate people who say that.
Guest:People who don't watch TV yet find literally without irony like, oh, I don't watch TV, but will watch stuff on fucking Hulu on their- But it's what's amazing to me is that like there was a time in my life where I would have said like, I'm not watching TV, you know, because I thought it was, you know, my, the message was it's dumping shit in my brain.
Marc:But now if someone says that to me, I go, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Marc:There's great shit on television.
Marc:It's great stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what are you, stupid?
Yeah.
Marc:So how do you deal with people that accuse you of compromising or selling out with this chipmunk business?
Guest:Well, I don't anymore.
Guest:I made the mistake of engaging it early when I did the first one.
Guest:And it certainly was more closer to me because I had just done it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was- They're vicious, those faceless idiots.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I felt that they kind of had a point, but then it took me a little while to- But you knew that when you took the deal, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, also, you're in a winless situation.
Guest:Like, I can tell you, obviously, I'm doing this on a podcast.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Nobody's going to hear it.
Guest:But if we were talking, I would say to you, and I made this point, and nobody wants to hear it, but if you and I were talking, you'd understand.
Guest:I'd be like, dude, I had not worked for six months, which is an eternity.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, six months is a long time.
Guest:You just question everything.
Guest:No one's going to like me again.
Guest:Because you don't know if anything's going to come back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Am I ever going to work again?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, it's a domino effect that you're not as creative.
Guest:I'm trying to generate ideas and nobody wants to hire you.
Guest:And I took this job.
Marc:Well, it's interesting.
Marc:It's very similar to throwing a fight.
Marc:That, you know, it's like when you're a fighter, you know, in the mob movies where, you know, you're just like in Raging Bull where you just slug it out, you slug it out.
Marc:And then all of a sudden nothing's happening because you're going to have to throw, you're going to have to do one for the boys in order to get your big shot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's an interesting analogy.
Marc:So, you had to throw a fight.
Guest:So, I did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it wasn't... You know, I didn't do it because I needed the money.
Guest:Although they paid me a good... It wasn't a lot in the beginning, but the movie did so phenomenally well, I got a lot of bonuses and stuff.
Guest:But initially, the check wasn't that great.
Guest:I just wanted to work.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I knew I was going to get shit, but I didn't know the level of vitriol and bile.
Guest:And it was... And the reason it hurt and it landed was because I was feeling those things.
Guest:I was like, oh my God.
Guest:You're mad at yourself.
Guest:Have I really... Have I sold out?
Guest:Have I... Well, what's my integrity now?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then after...
Guest:After a little while of that, I just sort of came around and said, well, look, here's why I did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't regret it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I... I think that...
Guest:Maybe it's getting older, too, because there's been a good like six years in between these three movies.
Guest:And now I'm sort of resigned to it.
Guest:And also nobody gives a shit.
Guest:As soon as nobody cares.
Guest:You know, they make the same jokes I do or rather I make the same jokes they do.
Guest:And nobody truly gives a shit.
Marc:And also it seems to me that and these are other people I've spoken to about, you know, similar opportunities and taking them is that.
Marc:Yeah, people are going to play on your weakness around it because you are such an outspoken person around.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Well, that was the thing that bothered me.
Guest:You know, like, am I going to be able to say anything again and have integrity?
Marc:But when it comes right down to it, you know, you did a job for a paycheck in a family movie.
Marc:Is there a crime in entertaining children on some level?
Guest:That's the other thing that I didn't, if I was smart, I would have addressed that in the beginning.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That this is a movie for five-year-olds that five-year-olds fucking love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They love it.
Guest:You and I, it's not for us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's also not, I mean, I see worse shit out there.
Guest:I mean, it's not good, but it's not evil.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:And I mean, the fact that we're even defending it and talking about it is, we're saying the obvious stuff that we both know.
Marc:No, I know, but we have issues like this because there is that weird feeling that, because when you come from a place that you and I come from, all you have is this weird honor system or this weird set of values that you define yourself by.
Marc:And you don't want to call bullshit if you're in bullshit.
Guest:And look, here's the other thing that I'm not going to apologize for.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is I made a shitload by the time the third movie came because I was contractually obligated due to the second one and the third one.
Guest:Is there a fourth?
Guest:I'm not contracted to do that.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I fulfilled my contract with three.
Marc:And you made a shitload of money.
Guest:I made, well, certainly by the third one, yeah, because I exponentially went up each time.
Guest:I made a lot of money.
Guest:And the other, you know, extenuating factor in this is that
Guest:Mr. Show, I didn't make anything.
Guest:I never made a penny on the DVDs.
Guest:They still say we owe money.
Guest:It's bullshit.
Guest:I never made any money on that.
Guest:Busted my ass for four years.
Guest:Todd Margaret, I lost money.
Guest:I put in my own money so we could do the Cenotaph scene.
Guest:I put in my own money because we didn't have in the budget.
Guest:So I lost money doing that show and spent a year in London by myself.
Guest:And, you know, all the cool movies I do, Eternal Sunshine, Ghost World, all those things.
Guest:I didn't make any money.
Guest:The Ginsburg one?
Guest:Yeah, you make scale.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You make, you know, you get a check for 2,600 bucks.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you make 34% of that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, you don't make any money.
Guest:So, you know, there have been a handful of things where I got a decent paycheck.
Guest:I remember Small Soldiers and...
Marc:Kids movies.
Guest:Year one.
Guest:And yeah, well, I do a lot.
Guest:And plus I do the voiceovers for, you know, Kung Fu Panda and Megamind and Curious George and stuff.
Guest:And, you know, but that's, yeah, I do lots of, oddly enough, I never would have expected 20 years ago when we were sitting around a catch or wherever.
Guest:I never, if you would have said, yeah, you're going to be really huge in kids movies.
Guest:Nobody would have guessed that.
Marc:And I don't know that there's any real shame in that.
Guest:No, I have no shame in it.
Guest:And at some point I'll have a kid and I'm sure they'll be delighted.
Marc:I'm glad you're excited about having a kid.
Marc:That's new, isn't it?
Guest:Uh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, I mean, we'll take our time.
Guest:I mean, Amber, as you said, is young and, um, you know, and she has a career, you know, to think of.
Guest:And that's, that's, that's important.
Marc:Um, well, everything sounds like everything's going pretty good.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Things are good.
Guest:And, you know, I've got nothing on the horizon, but I plan on, you know, 80% of the work I've done is self-generated anyway and just sitting back and figuring out what my next thing is, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's good to see you, Dave.
Guest:Well, you too, as always.
Guest:And thanks for having me in your shed.
Marc:Garage.
Marc:Garage.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That is a sincere and very real hangout time with old friends right there.
Marc:Me and Dave Cross.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:That is our show.
Marc:Please, if you live in the New Jersey area, as I said before, I'll be at the Stress Factory this weekend.
Marc:That's Friday and Saturday, the 13th and 14th.
Marc:of April.
Marc:Love to have you come down.
Marc:What else?
Marc:WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.
Marc:Get your JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:I've got a link to the WTF blend in the merch section on WTFpod.
Marc:Go there and get on the mailing list.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Check out the app situation.
Marc:Check out the episode guide.
Marc:Check out my calendar.
Marc:Do what you need to do.
Marc:Leave a few comments.
Marc:Try to be pleasant.
Marc:I know some of you people out there who comment on things online are not pleasant.
Marc:And we'll indulge it, but don't be too mean.
Marc:Boomer!
Marc:Boomer!
Marc:Come here, buddy!
Marc:He did it like once.
Marc:I can't even get him to come in here now.
Marc:I got pressure behind my right eye and pain in the back of my right head.
Marc:I'm trying not to assume the worst.
Marc:I'm trying not to Google brain cancer.
Marc:Again.