Episode 253 - Nick Lowe
Marc:are we doing this really wait for it are we doing this wait for it pow what the fuck and it's also what the fuck what's wrong with me it's time for wtf what the fuck with mark marron
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fuckites?
Marc:Yeah, there's an oldie.
Marc:Or maybe a new one.
Marc:I don't know what I've said and what I haven't said.
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:What's going on in my life?
Marc:Is that what you're wondering?
Marc:Or are you fast forwarding?
Marc:Actually, it's more like what's going on in my brain.
Marc:What's going on in my life stays relatively constant, give or take.
Marc:What's going on in my brain seems to go all kinds of places.
Marc:I had weird dreams last night, dreams about bugs, like a big cabinet of bugs.
Marc:I can't even frame the dream right.
Marc:I know that I ate some grilled baby octopus last night.
Marc:I went out to dinner with Jessica and Chris Cooper, the artist, and his girl, Stephanie.
Marc:We went to some groovy place, waited an hour and 15 minutes.
Marc:I don't wait well.
Marc:I get aggravated.
Marc:It's really why I don't go places.
Marc:I don't know if it's my age, but I think I've always been like that.
Marc:The aggravation.
Marc:I'd rather deny myself something than have to wait like an idiot for things.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Marc:I will stop myself from going places, going to concerts, going to performances, because I don't again, I don't know if it's because I'm old, but my brain, it's like, oh, we're going to have to park.
Marc:And then there's the thing.
Marc:But let me get back to the dream.
Marc:So I ate baby octopus.
Marc:Came home, dreamt about a cabinet of bugs.
Marc:I opened up this old cabinet that I wanted to keep, and I thought it was antique.
Marc:But then it turns out the sides were made out of wet cardboard, and there was all this moldy, wet clothing and crap in there.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, when I opened it, literally thousands of thousands of ants just started coming out of it and forming a line and going under my bed.
Marc:And then there was a giant wind scorpion that was black, and they're horrible looking.
Marc:It was just a mess.
Marc:And I was disappointed that the the sides were cardboard.
Marc:And then I found a sweep of paper inside of the cabinet that said when it was made and it was much newer than I thought.
Marc:And I felt duped.
Marc:But I also felt when I woke up that I disrupted the force somehow between the baby octopus sort of processing that the ancient DNA of the octopus and unleashing the bugs in my brain.
Marc:I thought I disrupted something.
Marc:I thought that perhaps now the dinosaurs are after me.
Marc:Does that make sense?
Marc:Don't be concerned.
Marc:This is just a dream I'm extrapolating poetically.
Marc:Nick Lowe, the Nick Lowe, is in the garage today.
Marc:Nick Lowe is a great songwriter.
Marc:What's so funny about Peace Love and Understanding?
Marc:Cruel to be kind.
Marc:He's involved in Rockpile.
Marc:He's married to Carleen Carter, Johnny Cash's stepdaughter.
Marc:And he's 62 years old.
Marc:And he's got a new record out and he sounds great.
Marc:He plays great.
Marc:At the end of this interview, he does one of my favorite songs of all time, The Beast and Me, which he wrote for Johnny Cash.
Marc:Something I can relate to.
Marc:Something about that feeling of having something inside of you that is mad and dangerous and crazy that comes out occasionally.
Marc:I can relate to that.
Marc:I understand it.
Marc:It speaks to me.
Marc:He's also doing a song off his new album, Sensitive Man.
Marc:But I think what it really made me reflect on, because I've had, look, I'm dating someone who's younger than me.
Marc:She's moving into my house.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:The relationship is making me happy.
Marc:But on some level, because of the age difference, I can only assume I'm doomed.
Marc:I can only assume I'm doomed.
Marc:I have often I think that I'm getting to a point where I think maybe I should just get business cards printed up that say, you know, Mark Maron, just a phase you're going through.
Marc:Resolving daddy issues since 1999.
Marc:But that's negative.
Marc:Who cares about age?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's what you know who says that?
Marc:Guys who are getting older.
Marc:Age isn't that big a deal.
Marc:People who are getting older say, hey, what age is just a state of mind?
Marc:No, it's not.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:I'm looking at myself in the mirror.
Marc:And I see an older guy.
Marc:Finally, I look at pictures of myself and I and I think, what is happening?
Marc:And then I realized, dude, you're 48 years old.
Marc:And then I realized maybe I should dress like a grown up.
Marc:Then I realized, what the fuck does that even mean?
Marc:I don't know how to do this.
Marc:I think I'm doing fine because I don't think about it.
Marc:And I honestly think I'm doing the best work I'm doing I've ever done in my life.
Marc:I think we get so wrapped up in youth culture and accommodating youth culture and playing the youth culture, which I never was able to do.
Marc:I think I was an old man when I was 15.
Marc:I think I had that thing.
Marc:I think I aspired to being an old guy.
Marc:Now, I don't know if I'm an old guy, but I'm in there.
Marc:I'm in the middle.
Marc:I'm waiting for that midlife crisis.
Marc:Maybe I'm having it.
Marc:Yeah, C statement before.
Marc:Re 20 year difference in age of girlfriend.
Marc:Hey, I don't seek that stuff out.
Marc:That's negative.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:I'm living for the day.
Marc:How's that?
Marc:But I'm having that weird moment where I'm seeing myself.
Marc:You know when someone's president and they do two terms and at some point you see them at the beginning of their first term and then all of a sudden about within three or four years they just turn into old men and you don't realize it's happening until you see the before and after pictures?
Marc:I'm not saying I'm not comparing myself to the president.
Marc:I just always notice that it's a they hit some wall and you're like, holy shit.
Marc:What did the presidency do to him?
Marc:Well, I think it's just a natural thing that happens to people.
Marc:You just don't notice it.
Marc:And I'm noticing it in myself.
Marc:Not that I, you know, that I was presidential or that I'm president, but that all of a sudden, like, there's no denying that I'm aging.
Marc:I'm not complaining.
Marc:Like I said, I really believe I'm doing the best work I've ever done in my life.
Marc:And it's finally happened at 48.
Marc:Thank God I hung in there.
Marc:Thank God I stayed with it.
Marc:I don't think I've ever known more.
Marc:I don't think I've ever been more comfortable with myself.
Marc:Not known more in an arrogant way, but just that I've lived through some shit.
Marc:Now I have something to talk about.
Marc:And then I start looking at all these people that are half my age, you know, doing stand up and getting popular, which is all great.
Marc:And then you start to worry about, you know, how do you sustain a career in anything?
Marc:You know, older people are sort of turned away.
Marc:And I don't I don't ever necessarily understand that, but especially in show business.
Marc:I mean, that's why I was like, great, great.
Marc:Maybe a career in podcasting.
Marc:No one has to see me.
Marc:They just have to hear me.
Marc:But I think I'm doing all right.
Marc:But I had one of those weird age moments last night.
Marc:I'm not a senior moment.
Marc:I do forget shit.
Marc:But I was in the car with Jessica and we're driving to the restaurant to meet our friends.
Marc:And she's...
Marc:It's gotten to the you know, when you with somebody for a while and you don't want your relationship just to become sort of a series of ticks and predictable exchanges that you find comforting.
Marc:But at the drop of a hat, all those things that are predictable and comforting can be, you know, grating and horrifying.
Marc:Everyone just becomes a series of predictable behaviors, habits, petty exchanges.
Marc:It's how we communicate.
Marc:It's how we find consistency and trust.
Marc:All the things that build a good relationship are exactly all the things that can undo it.
Marc:But we're in the car, and I know how to drive, kind of.
Marc:I'm having some trouble with the driving lately.
Marc:Not because it's not an old thing.
Marc:It's just I have a style.
Marc:I have a style of stopping at stop signs.
Marc:I have a style of approaching a red light that I need to take a right turn at.
Marc:My style involves maybe going past the stop sign just into the intersection to look both ways.
Marc:I think it's safer.
Marc:But it's against the law.
Marc:So anyways, I do know how to drive.
Marc:I've not been in many accidents in my life.
Marc:It's been a long time since I've been in an accident.
Marc:Even if I have my own style that might seem slightly dangerous, but my girlfriend chooses to do the, you're going to want to get in the other lane if you want to get off of the thing.
Marc:I think you should be in the furthest lane over if you want to just go through this.
Marc:She drives these roads a lot and she drives in a lot of traffic.
Marc:I'm not saying she doesn't know, but I am saying I know how to fucking drive.
Marc:Do you understand?
Marc:Do you understand what I'm getting at?
Marc:Hey, maybe we might want to get over two lanes.
Marc:All right, I know how to drive.
Marc:I'm just saying it's a better, I know what you're saying.
Marc:And then it's just like that.
Marc:And now because I'm trying to be a better person, willing to compromise, willing to meet people halfway, I say to myself, yeah, this is cute.
Marc:This is okay.
Marc:I'm okay with this.
Marc:She can do that.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:I'll even listen to her.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:There's no reason to make a stand for having, you know, I've been driving since I was 15.
Marc:Do I have to make that stand?
Marc:I've been driving for 33 years.
Marc:That's older than you.
Marc:Am I going to say that?
Marc:No.
Marc:I'm going to go, okay, yeah, no, no, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I'll get over.
Marc:I'll get over.
Marc:It's not that big a deal.
Marc:Pick your fights.
Marc:But then we crossed a line that we got to an intersection.
Marc:I stylistically moved into the crosswalk.
Marc:It's my style.
Marc:And she goes, stop, stop, stop, stop before you get into the crosswalk.
Marc:And I said, shut the fuck up.
Marc:I know how to fucking drive.
Marc:She goes, you're going to get a fucking accident.
Marc:We're going to kill somebody.
Marc:I'm like, fuck you.
Marc:I know how to fucking drive.
Marc:There's no one in the crosswalk.
Marc:I just don't want to be in the car when you get into a fucking accident.
Marc:You don't know how to fucking drive.
Marc:Maybe you should learn how to drive.
Marc:And I said, fuck you.
Marc:I'm not going to do this.
Marc:I'm not going to be this couple.
Marc:What are we, 50?
Marc:And right after that came out of my mouth, I realized, wow, well, one of us almost is.
Marc:Jeez, that didn't work out.
Marc:And then quickly, because we're in the middle of a stupid, petty argument that was not cute, I corrected myself.
Marc:I said, what are we, 50?
Marc:And then it hits me, I'm almost 50.
Marc:And I'm like, I mean, 65?
Marc:Are we 65?
Marc:That took the wind out of my argument.
Marc:We got through it.
Marc:I pouted for a minute or two.
Marc:Standoffish.
Marc:Didn't commit to it.
Marc:There was no punishing involved.
Marc:We just moved right through it.
Marc:That's a sign of maturity.
Marc:Maturity is important as you get older.
Marc:i'm thrilled that you're here well thanks for having me um i uh i was desperately looking for my uh for my rock pile album that i played the hell out of the one with um teacher teacher on it yeah i i played that constantly that that song now is that i mean the fabulous thunderbirds did that song as well right or no they did um
Marc:What song?
Guest:Little girl, we'll take you home.
Marc:Was that a Jimmy Vaughn song or was that your song?
Guest:No, that's a Rocking Sydney.
Guest:Oh, it's an old song.
Guest:Yeah, it's an old song.
Guest:In fact, we got it from the T-Birds because we used to play with them a lot.
Guest:He's a good player, huh?
Guest:Jimmy Vaughn.
Guest:Oh, he's absolutely fantastic.
Marc:It's wild, man.
Marc:Now, like...
Marc:What fascinates me about you is how long you've been part of music.
Marc:I mean, it's been since the late 60s.
Guest:Yeah, it has.
Guest:Yes, that's when I kind of stopped working, as you could say, and exchanged a meager wage for no wage at all.
Marc:And the landscape of the – you were in London?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, we were just south of London.
Guest:In fact, I joined up with a guy I went to school with, and he formed a group after school, and then they chucked their bass player out and got me in.
Guest:And...
Guest:When we started, it was right at the end of the era where everyone knows featured in the Beatles early days when they went to Hamburg.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was still going, all that scene.
Marc:Was that the Teddy Boys?
Guest:No, there were some Teddy Boys around back then.
Guest:But the feature was that you could go to Germany and play in these clubs, these real sort of low-down clubs, for a month.
Guest:You'd get a residence.
Guest:You'd play all night, and the weekends you'd play all day and all night.
Marc:and that's how people got their chops yeah yeah because when i listen to your stuff i mean it seems like even now with the most recent album that there's there seems to be a thread of of sort of original uh 50s rock and roll and pop that that never goes away yeah and that you honor even more as you get older it seems is that possible yeah i think i think that's right i think that's right yeah because there's that period there in the in the 70s where
Marc:Something happened and and a new pop was sort of defined it.
Marc:Do you do you feel that?
Marc:Yeah, I do I do yeah now the original band Brinsley Schwartz.
Marc:What kind of music were you playing with them?
Guest:well
Guest:It was Americana, I suppose.
Guest:We really liked the band, you know, and so we'd read their interviews and things.
Guest:And if they mentioned somebody, we'd go out and buy their records.
Guest:And also, we shared a house.
Guest:We didn't think it was a hippie commune, but it sort of was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We just thought it was cheaper to live that way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was, in a way, it was like going to college or some sort of musical college because we all listened to the same records and we had a rehearsal room.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So looking back, it was a very sort of instructional time.
Marc:Yeah, because when you're just sitting around jamming with a bunch of people and that's all you do, you're going to come up with something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it was more folk based, do you think?
Guest:Well, no, a lot of country and R&B stuff.
Marc:I'm sorry I'm not as familiar with it as I should be, but I'm not going to lie to you.
Guest:It's very refreshing of you to say so.
Marc:I kind of picked up with the Nick Lowe like around, you know,
Marc:uh labor of love and uh then the elvis costello records and rock file as a freak for and then the last few records uh i i really enjoyed but i what i want to know is in the late 60s and what happened in the 70s in in britain i mean how'd you manage to avoid becoming ridiculous
Guest:Ah, well, I've done my share of ridiculous stuff.
Guest:No one is unscathed by that.
Marc:Yeah, like what?
Marc:I mean, you didn't end up wearing too big a hair, and you didn't end up overproducing any of your records.
Guest:No, I suppose.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:I've managed to sort of blot them out now.
Guest:I'm not being coy, but I just can't sort of conjure one up.
Marc:And you're hoping that the bad things disappear, not the important things.
Guest:Yeah, I think my one regret is that, well, I have lots of regrets, actually.
Guest:But we used to go into the studio pretty sourced most of the time.
Guest:And sometimes we got results because of it.
Guest:But very often we didn't.
Guest:I think we lost a lot of really great stuff.
Guest:Yeah, because it's, oh, let's just forget it and we'll do something else.
Marc:At that time, like in the early 70s, I mean, in England primarily, I mean, you know, David Bowie was huge.
Marc:Glamrock was still, you know, happening.
Marc:And there was sort of whatever you guys were doing, which seemed to be very different.
Marc:Was there a sense of competition or a sense of fuck those guys or...
Guest:uh no um uh it it we seem to operate in a different in a different world we was we were we were the kind of alternative you know and yeah in that in the 70s when pop music was uh well david bowie was was really really good you know but there was a lot of other stuff which we didn't like you know and in london at that time that and it was only really in london
Guest:This little movement started up, which was called the pub rock scene, where a band started playing in pubs.
Guest:There's nothing new about that, but it was just the kind of music they were playing.
Marc:And what kind was it, exactly?
Guest:Well, it was a lot of... They were like human jukeboxes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Classics.
Guest:They'd play classics, they'd play their own tunes, and they'd mix up the styles, because at that time, everything was very, very rigid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But there was a breakdown of snobbery, I suppose.
Marc:So it was more of a populist movement almost.
Guest:Well, it was a music lovers movement, and also it was very, very sociable.
Guest:That was the other thing.
Guest:There was no difference between the band and the audience.
Guest:It was quite sexy as well.
Guest:And where does punk rock come in around that?
Guest:Well, it has become apparent now because the pub rock scene got very easy to knock it because it turned into a kind of blues boogie sort of scene.
Marc:It was kind of tiresome.
Marc:Why does that get, because I play blues, that's what I always play.
Marc:I still listen to blues, but for some reason the idea of the blues band at a bar or a pub is hackneyed.
Marc:Fills you with despair.
Marc:Yeah, it does.
Marc:Is it because anyone can play?
Marc:Because you can walk by a pub or a bar and you can hear some pretty good guys playing, but still there's something just tragic about it.
Guest:Yeah, there is.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's because on paper it's really easy to go.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:But to get the sauciness and the kind of funny thing out of it, that's what people don't get, and that's why it sounds so terrible.
Marc:Well, that's how you make it great.
Marc:I mean, Rockpile just had some good swing to it, and there was a little bit of humor to it, and the production was real tight.
Marc:None of that dirty kind of like...
Guest:you know yeah i i i guess so i guess so the the um but anyway that's how it turned into and and in fact i use the expression myself you describe something as oh it's a bit pub rock that you know it means a certain kind of earnest you know it's a humorless uh right guys music guys trying their hardest to just play the hell out of something that's right sort of boogie woogie with all the woogie taken out of it somehow
Marc:So were there bands who were in the pop rock explosion, if I could call it that, or the pub rock explosion that you came up with that went on to actually create their own sound?
Guest:Well, Ian Jury was one of them.
Marc:I remember him.
Guest:Yeah, Kilburn and the High Roads, his group were really great.
Guest:And some went on to, no matter what you might think of them, but they went on to great international stardom, like Dire Straits, for instance.
Marc:Yeah, he's an interesting player, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, he comes sort of like, when I first heard that record, it was like I'd never heard anyone play guitar like that.
Marc:And he seems to come from some sort of weird Richard Thompson tradition or something.
Guest:Yeah, he really liked J.J.
Guest:Cale.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right, kind of blues folk rock-ish.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:um uh and uh elvis costello of course graham parker um and you worked with both of those guys i did yes did you like find elvis costello no not really um he used to come and see our group brinsley schwartz yeah he was especially when we played up in the northwest around liverpool he was living up there and we always used to notice him at the gigs and uh one night we were playing actually at the cavern club in liverpool which is now gone
Guest:And he walked into the pub across the road where we were having a drink.
Guest:And I thought, well, it's time for me to go and say hello to this kid.
Guest:Because he was stalking you, basically?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:He used to always come on his own.
Guest:He was always on his own.
Marc:Did he have the glasses and full-on nerd?
Guest:He did.
Guest:He was quite nerdy.
Guest:But we thought, well, he turns up all the time.
Guest:So I went and said hello to him.
Guest:And then a few years later, he went into Stiff Records, which was by this time, this was sort of preempting pub.
Guest:punk rock.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We had this record label called Stiff Records.
Marc:And you were one of the first artists on there, right?
Guest:Yeah, and I was the sort of house producer, I suppose you could say as well.
Marc:But that sort of became a bit, that evolved into pop, punk, and metal, didn't it?
Marc:I mean, they did everything, didn't they?
Guest:Well, Motorhead were on Stiff, yeah, that's about the closest we got to that.
Marc:So you're doing, at the beginning, post Brinsley Schwartz, and at the beginning of this pop explosion, post pub rock,
Marc:There's a lot of things going on in England.
Marc:I mean, Motorhead is a contemporary of yours.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you do your thing, Elvis is doing his thing, Grant Parker's doing his thing, and then Lemmy's doing his thing.
Guest:Yeah, it was a really great time.
Guest:It was a really great time because you could sort of do anything.
Marc:I've always wondered, maybe you can answer it for me, to get to the Elvis Costello-Graham Parker thing, that there was something like, it's almost like, in my mind, it's almost like, who's the guy that claims Bob Dylan stole everything?
Marc:Ramblin' Jack Elliott.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I feel like there's a, maybe I'm just putting, maybe I'm imposing it, but it feels like that Graham Parker and Elvis were very similar, and then Elvis just took it more.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, I've got a theory about that, actually.
Guest:Because at one point, of course, they used to talk about Elvis, Graham Parker, and Bruce Springsteen in the same breath.
Guest:They were all sort of doing the same kind of thing.
Guest:And then Graham...
Guest:just sort of fell away from it somehow.
Guest:Bruce went huge, and Elvis had whatever thing he's done, which I don't quite know what you call it.
Marc:He redefined something, because I remember I listened to the hell out of that album, My Aim is True, when it first came out, and you produced that.
Marc:I mean, when you were building that record,
Guest:i mean what were your feelings about him uh i thought that he uh his songs were too complicated i thought too many words um too many chords and i i and and when i were doing that record i was sort of in charge that was you know those that he did what i said i was the producer you know
Guest:But it didn't take very long for slowly the scales to tip until I found myself tugging the forelock, you know, and saying, oh, Mr. Costello, what have you got in mind today, sir?
Marc:Well, that was about three albums in?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because that one blew up, huh?
Marc:So you did the first five Elvis albums?
Guest:Five or six.
Guest:I can't remember now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he's turned into something.
Marc:I mean, I don't want to talk about him too much, but when you watch that career and you watch the sort of risks he's taken and the way he's evolved, he's sort of a...
Marc:Would you put him in the same arena as Bob Dylan or somebody else?
Guest:Well, he certainly puts himself in the same arena as Bob Dylan.
Guest:I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm very fond of him.
Guest:Do you guys still get along?
Guest:Yeah, we get along great.
Guest:But I always feel with him, and I describe it as rather like a slightly disapproving elder brother, because he works so hard.
Guest:And whenever I see him, he always comes up and says to me something like,
Guest:You know, not boasting, but it's just the world he lives in.
Guest:He'll say, oh, yeah, well, you know, Bobby De Niro and I were out at so and so.
Guest:And I always find myself sort of saying, well, Robert De Niro, he hasn't really made a good film for quite a long time, though, has he?
Guest:You know, I always find myself sort of slagging off whatever it is.
Guest:Trying to cut him down to size.
Guest:I do, really.
Guest:But I really am ever so fond of him.
Guest:He's a great fellow.
Guest:And I couldn't work as hard.
Guest:And I've got no desire to sort of swim in those shoals, if you know what I mean.
Guest:The rarefied atmosphere.
Guest:I mean, I saw him on TV the other day, standing in front of Barack Obama, watching the Blooming Detectives.
Guest:Why didn't he sing, What's So Funny About Peace?
Guest:Well, I don't understand anything.
Guest:He made you a couple bucks.
Guest:In fairness.
Guest:Yes, he does.
Guest:He cuts me in on that.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:But with what was going on at that time, because I went to England briefly in, I think, 1980 for a month on some exchange program, and it seems that what was going on at Stiff Records and what you guys were doing
Marc:along with Elvis and Squeeze, that there was a redefinition of what pop music really was.
Marc:And can you trace that to anything?
Marc:I mean, because the chords seemed a little different.
Marc:What were the roots of that?
Marc:Was it Beatles?
Marc:Where did it come from?
Guest:I know what you mean.
Guest:It was a sound.
Guest:I don't know what the answer is.
Guest:But yes, I suppose the Beatles can trace so much of it.
Marc:Like the minor chords and just that.
Marc:And it wasn't a huge... At the time, I knew a music producer later, and he said that that music was still sort of a rarefied thing, that it was not a huge selling type of music.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Well, Elvis, even, you know, when I...
Guest:When I first started working with him, which was in the punk rock days, and I did a couple of records of those sort of records.
Guest:I never liked punk music.
Guest:Who'd you record?
Guest:I did The Damned.
Guest:Yeah, oh, they were big.
Guest:And Reckless Eric and a few other sort of also-rans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But although I like those records I just mentioned, The Damned and Reckless, I never really liked punk music.
Guest:I like the sort of mischief that was made around there, but I never was keen on the music.
Guest:But Elvis was always, stuff was very sophisticated, you know.
Guest:As I say, it was chord-y, but when it was, if you corralled it, it was fantastic, you know.
Guest:I mean, he's written some sensational songs.
Marc:How much impact did you have on that first record with the more classic bluesier rock numbers like Mystery Dance and that kind of stuff?
Marc:How much musical influence did you have on him?
Guest:Well, that particular one, I think I played the bass on that one, in fact, and sort of...
Guest:I played the piano with a drumstick.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I can't really remember what I did.
Guest:He kept on asking me back again, but I used to turn up and say, oh, yeah, very nice.
Guest:LAUGHTER
Guest:I can't really remember what I did, but I must have done something.
Marc:Who were your guys when you were growing up that had the most influence on you?
Guest:Oh, so many.
Guest:Now, mainly American music.
Guest:I've always liked American music, whether it's country and western or rhythm and blues or blues.
Guest:But also, you know...
Guest:Show tunes as well.
Marc:Yeah, I hear a little of that coming through, that there's some sort of like an almost kind of swing era feel to some of it.
Guest:Yes, my mum had a very good musical taste, you know, and she had some very good records, which I liked.
Guest:Amongst them, she had a Tennessee Ernie Ford record, and that's when I first heard, well, I know now that it wasn't technically Nashville-type country in West, but that was the first...
Guest:sort of country and western music i i heard it made a big big impact were you a buddy holly guy oh sure yeah certainly he was a little bit before my time i had an older sister but she had kind of bad musical taste i mean she preferred pat boone singing tutti frutti but she brought you know she brought some good ones home too you know elvis and buddy holly and eddie cochran i was a big fan of he was great yeah uh he uh uh all that rockabilly stuff and elvis were you an elvis guy
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I even like his, you know, his late period stuff as well.
Marc:Now, before, did you, would you have ever imagined that at some point you would actually marry into the Carter Cash clan?
Marc:No, that came as quite a surprise.
Yeah.
Marc:yeah were you a johnny cash fan before that oh yeah yes of course i mean his cover that song that you wrote the beast of me has got to be one of the best songs ever written oh well it's very very sweet of you to say so i always wonder about songs like that because like in what you were saying about elvis is that you know there was a layering of words and there was a lyrical thing that you know he was sort of hung up on that that that that kind of wordy thing but it seems that you
Marc:certainly in your later career that you've always chosen to write songs that seem very self-reflective and very honest in an almost melancholy way.
Marc:I mean, there's a lot more to be said about that type of honesty than a lot of fireworks.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, I suppose it's one of the perks of getting older.
Guest:You know, now in pop music, there's a lot of people who are, you know, well, Bob Dylan's 70, I guess, isn't he, or something like that.
Guest:And they say that, I haven't heard it, but they say that Paul Simon's new record is one of the best things he's ever done.
Marc:Oh, it's out, too.
Marc:Like, I haven't picked it up yet.
Guest:No.
Marc:Have you?
Guest:No, I haven't.
Guest:But I've seen their reviews.
Guest:You know, everyone's saying it's really, really great.
Guest:Well, that...
Guest:That was unheard of, you know, back in, well, when, as I describe it, when my career as a pop star finished in the sort of early 80s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was going to be it.
Guest:You know, I'd had my little time in the sun and that was it.
Guest:And I'd done pretty well as well.
Guest:I'd produced some good stuff.
Guest:I'd written a couple of...
Guest:Great songs.
Guest:Good tunes.
Guest:I had a couple of hits myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there I was on the scrap heap.
Guest:You know, that was it.
Guest:Bye-bye.
Guest:Next.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's when I started trying to think, well, how can I, wait a minute, I haven't actually done anything really good yet, you know?
Guest:And so that's when I started trying to figure out how I could sort of reinvent myself to a certain extent to use the fact I was getting older as an actual advantage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm sort of happy you didn't go the sort of, I'll just play some standards.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you?
Marc:You didn't go that route.
Marc:No.
Marc:You decided to continue to write music and create new standards.
Marc:But I guess it must be pretty frightening to be in music when you have that realization.
Marc:I mean, Wake, what were your biggest hits were...
Marc:Cruel To Be Kind was huge.
Guest:Yeah, that was a big hit.
Guest:And I had a few others in Europe.
Guest:I had a song called I Love The Sound Of Breaking Glass that was a pretty big hit.
Guest:Yeah, that was big.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And another one called Half A Boy and Half A Man, which was quite a big hit over there as well.
Guest:But then there's other songs like Peace, Love, and Understanding, for instance, which has never been a hit.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But everybody knows it.
Guest:It's been covered by lots and lots of people.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's good.
Marc:I mean, you've got your publishing, don't you?
Yeah.
Guest:My publisher looks, I mean, the hippie in me sort of looks forward to a time when that song will be no longer necessary to sing it.
Guest:My publisher disagrees.
Marc:Keep it going.
Marc:See if anyone else will do it.
Marc:But that must be a pretty frightening moment to realize that at some point.
Marc:Because people in music, I mean, there's a lot of ways to make money in music, especially if you write your own songs.
Marc:But there are people that have done two or three hits and said, well, I did all right.
Marc:That's enough.
Marc:And then they go play those three hits for the rest of their lives.
Guest:Well, that was the terrifying prospect, because I'd seen a few of my contemporaries who do that.
Guest:And...
Guest:And you've got to worry about your hair falling out and all that sort of stuff.
Guest:And your public just sticks with that.
Guest:From your time in the sun, you've got to just recreate that for them, for their entertainment pound note.
Marc:I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame recently, and I went to the Elvis area.
Marc:and they were showing some film of him from probably the mid 70s you know when he was heavy and he was sweaty and he was in vegas and he was high i could see how high he was but there was some weird moment that i'd never had before when i was watching him where i realized he has to be that high to put his heart into these songs over and over and over again interesting yeah and it was there was something horrifying but you know sadly beautiful about it that that's who he is and that's what he does but it's it's gonna kill him yeah
Marc:I mean, in terms, I didn't mean to make it all dark, but when you, at that juncture where you were like, fuck, what am I going to do?
Marc:What was your recourse?
Marc:How many years did you spend in darkness or booze?
Guest:Well, it took me sort of a year or two to recover from that.
Guest:from my time in the sun you know because I did have a great time and also I knew it was coming because I'd been a record producer and so I'd hung around not only had I got down with the artists on the studio floor but I'd hung around with the suits on the 23rd
Guest:floor so for most practical purposes you were okay financially you weren't you know you weren't broke as you've done some producing and well that's uh i wasn't really that oh yeah not carefree anyway no i i you know like everybody else i'd you know um had some fun had some fun with it yeah and uh but and i knew it was coming um but still you know suddenly when you can't you know it's
Guest:Luigi at the, you know, the maitre d' at this fancy restaurant, you know, who used to give you a table suddenly won't be, isn't taking your calls.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or, you know, the legions of exotic looking chicks, you know, suddenly have disappeared, you know, who wants to go out with you.
Guest:It comes as a bit of a shock, even though, as I say, I knew it was coming.
Guest:So that, coupled with the fact that I was on the edge of death, I suppose, as well, it gave me time to reflect.
Guest:I took a couple of years off, at least, and then I realized that when I started working out this thing, I kind of knew that in order for it to work, I really had to start again.
Guest:I had to spend some time in the wilderness
Guest:um in order to for it to work yeah and uh so you got pretty out there on the booze i did yes for for uh for a while yeah i yeah who who didn't you know yeah and you don't drink anymore more than anyone else i suppose you still drink
Marc:oh yeah yeah just if you reeled it in yeah of course yes because i mean that's the one thing about that song the beast in me is that like to you know having you know i don't drink anymore but it seems that it comes from a place of of uh very uh genuine uh knowledge of that self-loathing yeah
Marc:Well, this record, the new record, the title is escaping me.
Marc:What's the title?
Guest:The Old Magic.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have a real darkness to it.
Marc:It's got a sort of a sweet, there's a melancholy to it, but it doesn't feel grim.
Marc:Yeah, I've done grim.
Marc:You're out of the tunnel?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but, you know, my stuff isn't really autobiographical.
Guest:You know, I'm an old-fashioned, you know, Denmark streak hack, really, of songwriters.
Guest:So I make it all up, you know, but I know what I'm singing about.
Guest:I know what it feels like to experience human emotions.
Guest:Well, no, but it's still not particularly old.
Guest:I was doing Johnny.
Guest:I wrote it for Johnny Cash for the song.
Guest:So I was sort of doing him.
Guest:But I know I know what I'm talking about, you know, I suppose.
Marc:No, I don't want to bring up anything too touchy because I know you're not married anymore.
Marc:But how much time did you get to spend with with Johnny Cash?
Guest:Oh, quite a lot of time, yes, although he lived in Nashville and I lived in London, but we were really pretty good friends.
Guest:He was a lovely, lovely bloke, and I miss him very much now, and June as well.
Guest:They were real sweethearts.
Guest:Once you Carlene and I, when we got divorced, it didn't really matter to them, you know, and they because they've got hundreds of ex sons in law, you know, they did.
Guest:They did.
Guest:And and it didn't seem to matter.
Guest:You know, once you got your feet under the table, you're fine.
Guest:And some of them.
Guest:Frankly, I would have set the dogs on them if they come around, you know, banging on my door after, you know, they'd finish with my daughter.
Guest:But there was some pretty, you know, there's some pretty nice fellows as well, you know.
Marc:Yeah, you're in good company?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Of the cash exes?
Guest:Yeah, Rodney Crowell, Marty Stewart, you know, very good guys.
Guest:Some of them had a couple of goes, you know.
Guest:They're very good guys.
Marc:Did you glean anything from him that you can remember in terms of how you approached a song or how you approached playing or anything?
Guest:Well, the one thing that's just been occurring to me recently, funnily enough, because I've been doing interviews.
Guest:um recently is that this thing that um you hear old timers saying which i used to hear for years and years just if you want to get on in this business just be yourself if you must have heard people say that it never made any sense to me i thought what the hell does that mean be yourself you know if i go and see someone perform i don't want to see them being themselves i want them to being magnificent yeah i want right right
Guest:but and and he actually used to say actually said that to me himself nick you know all you got to do is figure out how to be yourself and then you've got it made and the older i've gotten the stage i'm at now i know what he means i quite understand it once because once you do obviously you've got to have a little bit of stage craft yeah to kind of put it across you know well that's something you put into place as a youngster anyways if you're performing so you've got the chops that way right yeah
Guest:But I've found when I was younger, I was always trying to cop an act, you know, you know, and sort of put this, there was a terrible strain after a while to keep it up.
Guest:But shoes, you got to get the right shoes, you know, it's only a temporary relief.
Guest:But but I sort of know what he means now, you know, if you if you can figure out how to put your thing across with a minimum of effort, really, you know, then then it really it makes things much, much easier.
Marc:Because there's an authenticity to it, and people sense that.
Guest:Yes, even if it's a bit... Well, that's why he was so great as well.
Guest:People loved him, because sometimes he was kind of awkward and sort of hopeless, and not the man in black.
Guest:He was just the man dressed in black.
Marc:Well, I think that's what's amazing about those recordings and the rest of the recordings along with your song is that there's a vulnerability there that's insane.
Marc:I mean, the way that Rick Rubin mixed those things, it was like you could hear every crackle of everything comes through that.
Marc:It's almost heartbreaking even when he's singing a relatively upbeat song.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:And what's your outfit now in terms of how many guys you're traveling with?
Guest:Well, I'm just on my own.
Marc:So you're just sitting up there with a guitar now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I've just been opening for Wilco with a solo, which was quite a trip.
Marc:What do you think of him, Mr. Tweedy?
Marc:Oh, he's as good as gold.
Guest:They're really nice boys.
Guest:Yes, I can't really say enough about them.
Guest:They were really, really nice to me.
Marc:You like the sound?
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:they um they uh their audience too were i didn't know how that was going to work out you know yeah if you know how they'd react when i came out did they know you uh it's hard to tell yeah i suppose so that i got a pretty nice clap when i came out you know so i suppose that means that
Guest:that uh you know they did to a certain extent and they received you well yeah they did they did the only time they got a little restless as if they were standing up you know and i uh you know if it was a standing up they'd come to rock and roll you know and you'd feel them have you become a sit down act nick yeah i suppose i have a bit yeah i suppose i but i you know i'm i'm still you know the sticky flawed rock club is sure yeah my uh
Guest:Habitat I suppose no when I sort of skipped over rock pile which I you know like I said that I don't know if it was a second album which album is teacher teacher on well we only actually made one one official rock pile album even though that Dave Edmonds made about three and I certainly made two is he still around he is right yeah are you guys still friends
Guest:No, we're not really.
Guest:And it grieves me to say it, but he sort of becomes something of a recluse.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I never speak to him or hear from him at all.
Guest:It's a real shame.
Guest:I think he should be reaping some sort of reward, I think.
Guest:Yeah, he's a hell of a guitar player.
Guest:Yeah, he is.
Guest:He influenced a lot of guys.
Guest:Yeah, he certainly influenced me in a lot of ways.
Guest:Yeah, like how?
Guest:Well, mainly with his studio stuff, the way he was in the studio.
Guest:I was a great fan of his and really went to a lot of trouble to...
Guest:become friends with him when I was a kid.
Guest:I know that feeling.
Guest:Like, how old were you?
Guest:Is there a big age difference?
Guest:Yeah, fairly big age difference, yeah.
Marc:And what did he come from in his earlier manifestations?
Marc:What did you know him from?
Guest:He had a band called Love Sculpture in the 60s, and they had a huge hit with an instrumental version of Sabre Dance, the Cacciaturian Sabre Dance.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That thing.
Guest:which I thought was fantastic.
Guest:And then he did I Hear You Knocking.
Guest:It was a massive international hit.
Marc:That's a Fats Domino's song originally, right?
Guest:Smiley Lewis.
Marc:Smiley Lewis.
Marc:I stop at my dad's wisdom.
Marc:I should know further back.
Marc:But his version of that is great.
Guest:Yeah, it is great.
Guest:And then he used to use the same studio that Brinsley Swartz used to use, and I used to see him come in when we'd finished, so 10 at night, something like that.
Guest:He'd come in on his own and do these incredible, you know, stay up all night, you know, creating these fantastic sounding records.
Guest:So I started to, you know, I started to bug him a bit.
Guest:And then first of all, he got me in to sort of be his audience or audience, you know, and sit there.
Guest:And then he'd get me out to scratch a mic, you know, or turn the machine on for him.
Guest:And then, you know, an ooh or an ah or a hand clap or something.
Guest:And then I brought him a song one day and said, you know, do you like this?
Guest:And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do that.
Guest:And then next thing I knew, we had Rock Pile.
Marc:So he kind of taught you some things about producing.
Guest:Yeah, he sure did.
Guest:Yeah, he was just fantastic.
Marc:And what was it specifically about that sound, the drive of it, the clarity of it?
Marc:Because he does straight-up rock and roll, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he's an old-school kind of like a fast swing, right?
Guest:Yeah, all of that.
Guest:And also in the studio, he was very, very...
Guest:What's the word I'm looking for?
Guest:Intimidated by the recording studio.
Guest:He absolutely dominated it and used to sort of mistreat the equipment, really, to get it to sound how he wanted to hear it.
Marc:Like guitars or mixers?
Guest:everything everything yeah everything yeah it was really really something to watch him mixing uh mixing stuff you know it was really really cool so and tape you know uh tape loops going all around the studio hold people holding the tape you know oh really in the studio and things yeah you wouldn't think he'd be that complicated i mean what do you do with tape loops
Guest:Well, I can't remember now, but I just remember thinking, this is so cool.
Guest:We're all holding tape here.
Guest:He's going through our fingers.
Marc:And so Rockpile, was there an idea?
Marc:Because the sound seems pretty, it's a really classic sound, but it's just mixed in a very clean way.
Marc:I don't know how I would explain it, but it all sounds familiar.
Marc:If you like rock and roll, I mean, it's pretty straight up.
Guest:Well, I don't think I'd be here talking to you if it wasn't for Rockpile.
Guest:Over in the United States...
Guest:And I'm continually reminded about rock part.
Guest:People ask me about rock part all the time.
Guest:And part of the reason we never made it was because...
Guest:Was the same reason that we were so popular really because we formed just to have a laugh just for fun and We did a I think two days rehearsal we learnt up a set you know yeah, and we
Guest:We were a sort of hit straight away.
Guest:We played a pub, you know, the next week and there was a full house, you know, and then we came to the United States opening for various bands.
Guest:Bad Company was the first.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:78.
Guest:five or six so bad company was probably three records in they were pretty huge well they were they were on their way out right you know and yeah and we've you know we've had these little tiny amplifiers you know and i remember going to the debt we started the mile high stadium in denver you know and i remember looking at this huge place you know i've been there i've been there how anyone would hear us yeah yeah and we went out and we went out and people went crazy you know what would you open with
Guest:Get Out of Denver.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Bob Seger song?
Guest:The Bob Seger song, except we were in the Mile High Stadium.
Guest:We'd almost passed out.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So many words in it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that just tore the roof off the place?
Guest:It tore the roof off the place, yeah.
Guest:And we couldn't believe it.
Guest:And of course, then VAD Company started cutting our set down.
Guest:Oh, no shit.
Guest:Well, the thing is, the worst thing you can do, because it just means that you get rid of all the...
Guest:sort of boring numbers you know you all you do is your best stuff and so after 20 minutes you know you leave the stage when the crowd are completely you know gone mad and you you know do lots of staring at looking at your watch and shaking your head you know and shrugging your shoulders of the crowd yeah
Guest:gotta go gotta go sorry and uh so it didn't take us as long to get fired you know and we did we we got fired off quite a lot of tours because because he kicked ass because we kicked ass and uh and we didn't people could tell that we were just having a laugh you know and then one day uh i suppose it somebody from columbia took us aside and said look boys you know you do you realize that with a little bit of work you could really be
Marc:big and it's almost like someone just popped the balloon you know and we all just went oh what do you mean do a bit of work yeah yeah yeah and and um and and that was it we just sort of uh walked away from it it's interesting that that that because like if i picture bad company who i liked in high school and i you know and then i liked you guys because i mean in 75 i mean i i didn't realize that that that album when the album come out 77 uh something like that yes indiana
Marc:So I was still in high school and I was getting hip to that stuff, but I knew both sides.
Marc:But you come out with that kind of drive in front of a band like Bad Company because there's something familiar about Rockpile.
Marc:And it's almost like I imagine sort of its heart is in that pub rock thing in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you're having a good time.
Marc:You're doing songs, what, a couple covers, but they all have that drive that's sort of wired into everybody's head.
Marc:It's just party music.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They were just going nuts.
Marc:And then Bad Company comes out and does, what was their big song?
Marc:Ready for Love.
Guest:I can't get enough of your love.
Marc:It's a pretty cool song, actually.
Marc:He had a hell of a voice, that guy.
Marc:See, that's the weird thing is that your whole musical career was sort of outside of this weird mainstream rock thing.
Marc:And it always it seemed to have its own integrity.
Marc:Did you run up against those guys?
Marc:Oh, I mean, were you guys friends?
Marc:I mean, who were your peers as as your career goes on, you know, from from the old days all the way through?
Guest:Well, I remember there was a bit of anti antagonist.
Guest:What's the antagonism tension tension because I was also starting to get involved with stiff records back in the UK.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was
Guest:And we were sort of out to change the status quo.
Guest:I mean, we thought it was ridiculous.
Marc:But not punk rock, but your thing.
Guest:Yeah, yes.
Guest:It was sort of predated it slightly.
Guest:But there was definitely a movement to change the status quo.
Guest:And it's ridiculous that a really sort of terrible band like 10 years after, you know, could come over to the United States.
Guest:And, you know, well, basically make all this money.
Guest:You know, where's our money?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They're playing the blues 20 times faster than anybody else.
Marc:What was his name?
Marc:Albert Lee?
Marc:Alvin.
Marc:Alvin Lee noodling on going home.
Marc:Please, Alvin, do go home.
Marc:That's what was being said in the studios of Stiff Records.
Guest:Yeah, so, and occasionally after drink had been taken, you know, and I suppose a few rather unkind impersonations of bad company drifted down the corridor into the headliner's dressing room.
Guest:So, you know, I suppose that was the nature of the times.
Marc:That was the manifesto of stiff records was that it didn't matter what type of music you were playing necessarily as long as it wasn't the status quo.
Marc:So that's how you get like, you know, the beginning of, of what was, you know, real heavy metal, you know, with, with Lemmy and then you get the damned, but then you also get your music and the pop and you did some, yeah.
Marc:I mean, all of that stuff was completely against the status quo.
Marc:And you produced, did you produce the, the, the first motorhead record?
Guest:No, I did.
Guest:I did something with him.
Guest:Did you do a bit of a blur?
Guest:No, I didn't do.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I actually I did.
Guest:But it was it was a, you know, it didn't work.
Marc:Oh, it didn't.
Guest:I just went into the studio with him.
Guest:It didn't.
Guest:It didn't work.
Guest:Nothing I did with him.
Marc:No, dude, did you have a problem getting along with people like Lemmy at that time?
Guest:Oh, no, no, Lemmy's great.
Guest:No, no, he's fantastic.
Guest:Are you still friends?
Guest:I don't think anyone doesn't get on with Lemmy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Just a sweet guy?
Guest:He's a fabulous bloke, yeah.
Guest:He is.
Guest:He's very funny.
Marc:Now, okay, so tonight, if I go, which I'm going to do, like my girlfriend's half my age almost, and whenever I bring her to things.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:I wasn't bragging.
Marc:It's a double-edged sword, that thing.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Guest:Hey, tell me about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got one?
Marc:Well, my second wife is much younger than I am as well.
Marc:So you're on your second now?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's good, you know, as long as you just stay confident.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:So, yeah, but I'll bring her tonight and hope she doesn't go like, well, what are we doing?
Guest:Oh, move over, granddad.
Marc:People like Tweety, though, before we play some music or before you play some music, I don't know why I keep putting myself into that, but do you find yourself getting the respect that an elder record producer and great pop songwriter deserves?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I don't know about deserves.
Guest:You know, I couldn't possibly say that I deserve it.
Marc:See, you're not Elvis Costello.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, they're very nice to me, you know, and it seems like it makes sense.
Guest:You know, when we play together, you know, it does seem to make sense.
Yeah.
Guest:What, sitting in with Wilco or something?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The bill seems to work for some reason.
Guest:And, yeah, sometimes I do sort of feel like a kind of elder statesman.
Guest:I kind of enjoy it, I must say.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it seems like some of the music that you guys champion, that type of pop, that there was some bad period there with...
Marc:You know, with disco and synthesizers, but it seems like structurally some of the type of music that you guys were playing then is popular now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, those structures, those minor chords, the things that aren't necessarily hooks.
Marc:But you're not afraid of a hook.
Marc:You think in terms of hooks.
Marc:I do try to, yes.
Marc:When you were first writing songs like Cruel To Be Kind and some of your other hits, were you songwriting?
Marc:Were you aware that, like, I've got to find a hit song?
Guest:It wasn't quite as cold-blooded as that.
Guest:But it was much more...
Guest:my era then, you know, I was hip to what was going on there, whereas now I'm sort of not, really, you know, I've sort of earned the right now to do exactly the way I want to do it, you know, and some people like it and quite a lot of people don't, you know, but
Guest:But back then I was much more, you know, I was younger and I knew what was what, you know, what the good stuff was.
Guest:So it was much more of a natural thing rather than, you know, really scratching my head.
Guest:You only think, oh, yes, the hook.
Guest:It sort of came along more naturally.
Marc:Like, did you know, like, for some reason, as an American, I always picture that everybody in England somehow came across one another eventually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're dead right.
Guest:It's only a small place.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, like, I mean, was there a time, you know, in the late 70s where, you know, where you would come in contact with David Bowie somehow?
Guest:David Bowie is somebody I have actually never met.
Guest:But most of my friends all have met him.
Guest:But I haven't.
Guest:But...
Guest:Many of the others I have, although there's still a sort of a class system.
Guest:You know what we're like, us Brits.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yay, even unto rock and roll.
Marc:Where are you in the strata?
Guest:I suppose I'm like middle management, you know.
Marc:So like Robert Plant.
Guest:Yes, I know him fairly well, yes.
Guest:But he is more like a princeling, I would think.
Guest:Perhaps, you know, sort of the crown prince of a small... A small territory?
Guest:Yes, a small territory in Saxony.
Guest:Who are the kings?
Guest:Well, you know, the Beatles and the Stones, I suppose, still are, you know.
Guest:You never see Hyde nor Herod.
Guest:Well, yes, you do, because actually I live quite near Richmond, and...
Guest:Mick Jagger's got a house there and Ronnie Wood lives there.
Guest:Did you read that Keith Richards autobiography?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I wonder why he did it, actually.
Guest:I couldn't work out why he would do a thing like that.
Marc:It's a fascinating book, man.
Marc:Is it really fascinating?
Marc:I don't know if you know him, but as a lifetime fan of a lot of people, you have this assumption about him that he's just this fucking junky idiot.
Marc:But this thing is like just he's a raconteur.
Marc:There's great stories.
Marc:There's a lot of wit.
Marc:He's a lot smarter than you ever imagined.
Marc:And he did have an axe to grind.
Marc:And I'm not saying it's without ego.
Marc:But if you like the Stones, you're sort of, you know, and I imagine, you know, a lot of the players in it along the way from music.
Marc:It's pretty fascinating.
Guest:Well, there's been so much.
Guest:I've seen him on the TV talking about it.
Guest:There's been so much publicity.
Guest:I sort of feel that I've read it without actually having read it.
Marc:I thought it was very surprising.
Marc:Okay, folks, at this point, Nick got his guitar tuned up so he could play some tunes.
Marc:I asked him to play the Beast in Me, and I was thrilled that he said he would.
Marc:That was originally recorded by Johnny Cash, also at a very ripe age when he did that, some of his best work.
Marc:And then Nick plays his new single, Sensitive Man.
Marc:That tuner looks good.
Guest:Yeah, very handy thing to have.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and I think you can sing right into that mic if you want to put those cans back on.
Marc:I think it'll probably help you out.
Marc:This is not a big music studio.
Marc:I do what I can.
Marc:What kind of guitar is that one?
Guest:This is a J150.
Marc:Jumbo body, huh?
Guest:Yeah, it's like a J200, except it hasn't got any of what my friend Paul Kenley describes as the hop-along Cassidy stuff.
Marc:Yeah, the hummingbirds.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The beast in me Is caged by frail and fragile bars Restless by day and by night
Guest:Ransom rages at the stars God held the beast in me The beast in me
Guest:Has had to learn to live with pain And how to shelter from the rain And in the twinkling of an eye Might have to be restrained
Guest:God help the beast in me Sometimes it tries to kid me that it's just a teddy bear
Guest:Or even somehow managed to vanish in the air Then that is when I must beware Of the beast in me That everybody knows
Guest:they've seen him out dressed in my clothes patently unclear if it's new york or new year god held the beast in me
Guest:The beast in me
Marc:Oh, that's such a fucking great song.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What other one do you want to do?
Guest:Well, I could do maybe Sensitive Man.
Guest:What about that one?
Guest:I'm a sensitive man.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Lately when I go to steal a kiss I feel you pulling away I know something is amiss But what it is you won't say If I've done something to upset you Believe me that was never my plan But how can I fix it standing out here in the cold I'm a sensitive man
Guest:You don't always have to speak You can say it with a look Even across a crowded room I can read it like a book
Guest:But other times when there's something on your mind Make it as plain as you can Don't freeze me, baby, I'm no dinky-doo I'm a sensitive man I'm a sensitive man You can hear that in my song I'm a sensitive man
Guest:well first impressions could steer you wrong
Guest:Sincerely, my one desire is to make you happy again But I can't begin till you let me back in I'm a sensitive man I'm a sensitive man You can hear that in my song I'm a sensitive man
Guest:My first impressions might well steer you wrong Sensitive man out in the cold Trying to do good but so misunderstood Sensitive man
Bye.
Marc:Beautiful.
Marc:Again, the sound of a single hand clapping.
Marc:That was great, Nick.
Marc:Thanks so much.
Marc:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:So when you play, are you finding your old fans are coming out?
Marc:I mean, like, you know, people that are your age?
Guest:Yeah, a lot of them.
Guest:But what's more exciting in a way, I mean, it's a miracle that my old fans can still sort of make the journey, you know, but...
Guest:What is more exciting in the way is there's a lot more young people seem to come to my shows.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Yeah, I'm very pleased.
Guest:A lot more girls as well.
Marc:Well, that's even better.
Marc:That's probably the reason why you got in to begin with.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:One of them.
Guest:Those days.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Marc:Thanks for coming out.
Guest:Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Marc:Okay, that's our show.
Marc:Kind of a unique one.
Marc:Nick Lowe, the legend, the amazing singer-songwriter, the pop genius.
Marc:Ah, that was a thrill.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed it.
Marc:Hey, if you want, go to WTFPod.com and get all your WTFPod needs met.
Marc:I got Bill Maher on the show on Thursday.
Marc:I'm going to be in Oklahoma City on Saturday night.
Marc:I believe we might be adding a show if necessary.
Marc:You can go to WTFPod.com, check my calendar.
Marc:You can check the episode guide.
Marc:You can get the apps for iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, Droid.
Marc:You can kick in a few shekels.
Marc:You can get on the mailing list.
Marc:And you can comment on the comment board.
Marc:Very lively lately.
Marc:The last couple episodes, well, Matt Graham specifically pulled out some interesting stuff out of you folks.
Marc:And I can tell you right now, Matt was absolutely thrilled.
Marc:So do all that.
Marc:Get yourself some hold on.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Wow, I just shit my pants.
Marc:Just Coffee.
Marc:You can get that at justcoffee.coop or go through the link.
Marc:Go through my site.
Marc:Go through WTF Pod.
Marc:Get on that mailing list.
Marc:I'll mail you something.
Marc:I'm going to go check my Hamica tea.
Marc:My Hamica sun tea.
Marc:That's what I'm doing now.
Marc:Go see if it's done.
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