Episode 251 - Matt Graham
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Marc Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what-the-fuckers?
Marc:What-the-fuck buddies?
Marc:What-the-fuckineers?
Marc:What-the-fuck-nicks?
Marc:What-the-fuck-a-ricans?
Marc:What-the-fuck-a-holics?
Marc:What-the-fuck-a-nots?
Marc:Whatever you want to call yourselves.
Marc:Whatever the fuck you want to call yourselves.
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:I am sitting in a hotel room in San Francisco reflecting on last night's live WTF.
Marc:What a great show we had.
Marc:Great time.
Marc:Thanks for coming out.
Marc:If you did come out, thank you for bringing me...
Marc:Healthy snacks.
Marc:I just burped.
Marc:Did I just burp on the mic?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:That's not professional.
Marc:Thank you for bringing me some homemade pickled beets and some homemade okra.
Marc:I believe his name was Dave.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:I appreciate the nice mug.
Marc:It was very nice to have healthy treats.
Marc:And I actually just sitting here in my hotel room, avoiding the microphone, ate some of those pickled beets and some of that pickled okra.
Marc:So that happened just before I picked up the mic here.
Marc:thrilled thrilled on the show today matt graham you know i i this is an important show to me i don't know how to explain this look i'm 48 years old that's a reality i've lived this long i'm not old i'm not young i'm in the middle i'm starting to feel that i've discussed that before but all of a sudden
Marc:You know, you're dealing in your life when you get around my age where you haven't seen people for 30 years.
Marc:You haven't seen people for 15 years.
Marc:You wonder what the hell happened to people or where they've been or what they've been doing.
Marc:That's one of the issues I have a lot on this podcast is sometimes I see guys.
Marc:who I hold to this standard that I or not that a standard, but I knew them when they were a kid or I knew them when we were kids.
Marc:So I just assume, well, that's that guy.
Marc:And, you know, that guy's in there.
Marc:That kid is in there.
Marc:That that person you knew is in there.
Marc:But who knows what kind of miles they put on?
Marc:And what's that?
Marc:What's that like?
Marc:I mean, sometimes you see people and the only thing you can say is like, oh, my God, look at how you're still around.
Marc:I'm still around.
Marc:What where the fuck have you been?
Marc:What have you been doing?
Marc:Well, Matt Graham is definitely one of these people.
Marc:He's a very brilliant guy, very funny guy and very articulate dude.
Marc:But look, we go way back.
Marc:I mean, I started doing comedy back in 89, 90.
Marc:And this dude was just so smart, so intense, bordering on.
Marc:Well, he was intimidating.
Marc:But he was just a very dark, smart dude.
Marc:And I always had a lot of respect for him.
Marc:And I kind of lost touch with him.
Marc:I would hear things.
Marc:He was sort of a mythic character because he kind of got out of comedy.
Marc:And then he became a professional Scrabble player.
Marc:And then I know he got sober.
Marc:And I knew all this stuff.
Marc:And we talked about it.
Marc:You'll hear it in a minute.
Marc:But I just was thrilled to be able to reconnect with him.
Marc:And I don't know that I've had a conversation like this before.
Marc:Back in the day when I hung around Matt, I was like, oh, man, what's going to happen?
Marc:I didn't want to piss him off.
Marc:I didn't want to rub him the wrong way.
Marc:But he always liked being around him because he's so fucking smart and intense.
Marc:But it was just one of those things where I was just so thrilled that he's alive and that he's doing all right.
Marc:And also he's got this show.
Marc:He's not sure if he's going to do this.
Marc:It's sort of a tricky situation right now.
Marc:His show, he's getting back into comedy after a long reprieve.
Marc:And you'll hear his story in just a minute.
Marc:But his show, if it happens, is February 16th and 17th at 730 p.m.
Marc:at the Kimball Studio, 78 Fifth Avenue on the 10th floor.
Marc:He's most likely going to do it.
Marc:You can go check out his Facebook page, Matt Graham, G-R-A-H-A-M.
Marc:It's just a sad thing that's happened.
Marc:He found out his cat that he's had for years, his true friend, his cat Ruth, is ill.
Marc:So it's really hinging on what's going on with that.
Marc:And I don't really know what else to say.
Marc:This is a pretty long interview.
Marc:But it's just weird.
Marc:You know somebody for 20 years.
Marc:I've known him on and off during his life.
Marc:And I'm excited that he's getting back into stand-up.
Marc:I'm excited to have had this conversation with him.
Marc:Because he was one of those guys, man.
Marc:You know those dudes from back in your day or back in the day or whoever you know from your past where you're like, that dude was... I quote his jokes to this day.
Marc:I mean, that's going back over 20 years.
Marc:you know he had that much of an impact on me and his wife just took so many crazy turns and we're all a little crazy comics but but matt's lived a pretty interesting one so i hope you enjoy this conversation because i certainly did it was very um it was very exciting to me so uh let's go talk to matt graham now
Marc:So if you can pull the mic up like you're doing stand-up, you're doing it work better.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:How does that feel?
Guest:Paralyzing and awful.
Guest:Just like stand-up.
Guest:And you're talking like the first thing you do is bring up Princeton.
Guest:Yeah, I remember getting fired from that.
Marc:Well, the weird thing is about me and you is that I have these certain succinct memories.
Marc:Like when we started out, when we were in Boston, I remember a lot of that.
Marc:Like that was like 1988 or 87, probably.
Guest:Yeah, I probably first knew you in early 87.
Marc:And you'd come from Indiana, right?
Guest:Originally, but I'd been around Boston, you know, off and on, except when I wasn't home with my tail between my legs.
Guest:I've been around there for two or three years since like 84, I think.
Marc:Early 85.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I remember like at that time, because everybody like you, like I remember your jokes.
Marc:So clearly, like, you know, the when when when I first met you, there was this there was sort of this myth around you in a way you were like a wizard of some kind that had come from the Midwest.
Marc:And you and there was this wizard, an affiliation with Hicks at the time.
Marc:I mean, did you know him?
Marc:Did he have some part in like getting you going?
Guest:No, I was friends with Bill, but I don't know how good of friends I was with Bill yet.
Guest:I don't think that probably when I first met you, I worked with him a couple of times in both Indianapolis and Lexington.
Guest:I'd worked with him when I, like, the first two or three months of stand-up and saw him, and, you know, he and Stephen Wright were the two biggest influences on me as an adult in stand-up.
Guest:You know, like Woody Allen when I was a little kid, you know, is what made me a comedy fan, but...
Guest:um i wasn't friends with him yet but i became friends with him so there wasn't no he didn't spur me to do it and i think the most i said when i was emceeing for him in indianapolis in like 1985 was you know he funny stuff or something like that right you know yeah and i probably just went ah you know because like uh you know he he had the impact on me like talking to a chick you know it made me that nervous you know what i mean so
Guest:At that point.
Guest:I mean, you know, like when I was, I mean, we're talking, I was 18 or whatever.
Marc:That was the other thing.
Marc:You were like a kid.
Marc:Did you like run away from home or how'd that happen?
Guest:I didn't run away from home.
Guest:You know, they, uh, I, you know, I, I mean, I ran away from pretty much everything in life.
Guest:I ran away from school and whatever.
Guest:And,
Guest:And I started doing that, and I got some positive feedback and made a little money and, you know, met some, you know, I knew Steve Wright was from Boston, and I liked that, and I knew of a couple other funny people, and I met a couple guys, and I wanted to get far away from Indiana, which is still a daily goal, day at a time.
Guest:I remember my dad saying, we'd saved a little money for you for college, and we wanted to give you that so that you could go.
Guest:At the time, it seemed like, wow, this is great, because I'll be able to buy a lot of beer with this or whatever.
Guest:It was like $500.
Guest:I want to say like...
Guest:Or maybe it was $1,100.
Guest:I was like, what college were you thinking of?
Guest:The University of the Phoenix wouldn't have me for three times this.
Guest:And you split with $1,100 your college money.
Guest:Split with $1,100 in a roommate, sleeper on the train, you know, 18 years old, afraid of flying.
Guest:That's why I was on, you know, drinking schnapps.
Guest:Still afraid of flying.
Guest:I mean, I haven't done it in a while.
Guest:I would do it, you know, if they said, you know, hey, Lazarus, we want to raise your career from the dead.
Guest:You know, I'd probably get on a plane for the right reason.
Guest:But, you know, that didn't really happen.
Guest:And so why fly?
Guest:I mean, I don't got to go anywhere I fly.
Marc:Do you still talk to your parents?
Guest:Oh, sure, I talk to them, you know.
Guest:My real problem with Indianapolis is not necessarily them, you know.
Guest:What is it?
Guest:Have you been there?
Guest:Yeah, once or twice.
Guest:You know, I mean, it's just, look, it's a conservative Midwestern place, you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, things are so weird.
Guest:I mean, when I think of that, like when I think of like my great aunt and uncle who who raised me when I was a little kid, you know, my parents handed me right off.
Guest:They both had to make money.
Guest:So old people took care of me.
Guest:And I remember them telling me about religion, you know, and and my aunt Cora.
Guest:I've been east long enough that I now say aunt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My aunt Cora said, uh.
Guest:The earth is going to perish in a fervent heat.
Guest:And that was my first take on religion.
Guest:My parents weren't religious, right?
Guest:And I'm not religious, but I'm a theist.
Guest:I no question believe in God, which is funny because I think of Indianapolis as a conservative place, but it's a secular place.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:people only care about money there, you know, and getting to the Colts game.
Guest:And they're not, I'm, the weird part is, you know, I'm like way more liberal than them, but I'm way more religious than them too by, by virtue of being even slightly.
Guest:So, you know, and, uh, but you know, it's just not, it's just was not the place for me, you know, I mean, uh,
Guest:Nothing went for me there.
Guest:My stand-up, even though I'd go home, you know, and after doing Conan's, they wouldn't put me on an open mic, you know what I mean?
Guest:I think I hooked up with one girl there my whole life, you know, and it was like, you know...
Guest:sorted.
Guest:No romance for me there.
Guest:It was just bad.
Guest:It was sorted.
Guest:It happened in a bike trail after a bar closed, the new bike trail they'd put in.
Guest:And the funny part was, is I'm laying there getting on with this girl in a public place at 5 a.m., right in the middle of the bike trail.
Guest:And it's crossing my mind, because just two days earlier, my friend had said,
Marc:yeah they put in this great new bike trail right it's really terrific you can use it for all kinds of things you know it's like a great you know and i'm like like yeah this thing sure is great man you know for everything yeah yeah so like back in boston like here's here's the in my mind the evolution like because we lived together briefly uh at uh at bill wilson's house it was me and you and dave cross i was on the
Marc:wasn't that briefly it was like two or three years i would say that we lived together yeah i was there three or four years i'm just assuming our crossover time yeah i can't remember the time but i still quote a couple of moments that uh when when carl went into the hospital for his problems uh there was a moment uh where i remember we still everybody used to sit around that crossword puzzle the sunday times crossword puzzle and pass it around it seemed am i remembering that correctly
Guest:But, you know, I mean, to ask me to remember shit, I mean, I always had, you know, like a 12-pack in me at a minimum.
Marc:At that time, yeah.
Marc:So, like, I remember walking in and just asking, you know, like, is Carl ever going to get out of the hospital?
Marc:And you looked up from the crossword puzzle and said, only if Chief can lift the sink.
Guest:How did I say that?
Marc:Oh, the days when I was witty.
Yeah.
Marc:Like it stands out in my mind.
Marc:There are jokes of yours that stand out in my mind.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:You had a way of delivering and a succinct sort of a dark sensibility that I fucking always loved.
Marc:There was that time where we were up at night and we were wasted and we were... Oh, that time.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But this particular time, you and I decided to snort Viverin, and Bill Wilson walked in on this horrendous ritual of you and I... That wasn't late at night.
Guest:That, I remember, I'm going to tell you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because that was following two days.
Guest:We'd been to a Red Sox game, or you may not have been, but a bunch of us had been.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd already been up for a day doing actual, you know, non-Viverin Coke.
Guest:And, you know, I remember Frank Santorelli was around.
Guest:I'm not going to...
Guest:I don't want to place anybody or say there was – I just – but it was like midday of a following day, and we had turned to the Viver.
Guest:It was on that nice – he had that nice kitchen table with the chrome.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, God, you know, stuff I would have pinched.
Guest:I probably just died with that apartment, you know.
Guest:I went there.
Guest:I cleaned out some, like, old shit, like, you know, maybe a couple old board games and all these film magazines of yours, you know.
Guest:Yeah, what happened to those?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't have them now.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, I took them to one place, but then they didn't make it to the next.
Guest:Maybe the game store in Calgary, Alberta.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Who knows what shit they have.
Marc:You should make a trip out there because I took those from my grandmother's neighbor was a film freak.
Marc:And there was all those great old like Cahiers de Cinemas and all kinds of weird fucking magazines.
Guest:To show the actual difference between me and you, there's many differences, but just to point out one, I think it's a certain maturity level, whatever, why you're interviewing me and I'm sitting here as a loser limping around with a bad ankle.
Guest:um and you're accomplishing something is you had those you couldn't comment on the film there was all kinds of great film stuff i just took it because there were so many like naked women in them you know because it was european cinema and i was like you know well i mean i'm always afraid that i won't have something to jack off to you know what i mean so that i do kind of hoard i mean and there was probably so much free porn available to me you know so like
Guest:And I'm a film buff.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You could see.
Guest:But you took them for at least a reason of bordering on bettering yourself.
Guest:But I'm telling you, I just like this I am curious yellow feel that the whole thing had.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So then, all right.
Marc:It's kind of exciting.
Marc:I'm glad you seem to be in a good mood.
Marc:Because it was always intimidating.
Marc:You never knew what you were going to get with you sometimes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, there was moments like back then where you'd be like, how's it going, Matt?
Marc:And you're like, why is there a problem?
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:It spiraled.
Guest:Well, I mean, I'm kind of like a dour old man from the time I was 12 years old.
Guest:I mean, that's just the fact of the matter.
Guest:You know, I date online because I'm a hermit, you know, and it's hard.
Guest:Like, I don't really want to tell people stuff that's not true.
Guest:I have many really outstanding qualities, you know, but, you know, and, you know, I've retained a lot of youth, you know, in body and face, but I don't never had it in my soul.
Guest:And it's hard to really, you know, in terms of the young as you feel thing, I mean, I don't ever recall feeling young.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I was six years old.
Guest:I would go hide in the closet with my reference books and Guinness Book of World Records, and my dad would come and try and force me to go play in the snow or something other kids did, and I just wanted to be in the closet with books.
Guest:So, but yes, I mean, I thought you were saying, you know, like, you were crabby.
Guest:Like, you were more like, you might snap, but I was, I didn't snap as much unless I was drunk, but I was very neurotic.
Guest:I was always worried.
Guest:Yeah, you had a lot of angles.
Guest:Well, I mean, you can see that it's still the case.
Guest:I mean, my brain...
Marc:has not slowed down but also there was like at that time when we were at catch there's that there was this whole the community built was built around catch but the the the bigger sense of the community was built around the idea that they would give us free drinks and we could drink there all night long people would come to that place after gigs to drink and it was always very impressive your commitment to drinking at that time i mean there was a plan i think it was probably as
Marc:Well, it was a lot simpler than the vitamin regimen, but there were periods where you would say, like, you know, I'm not going to eat because I will interrupt the alcohol going through.
Guest:Did I really say that?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you actually planned around it that you would go out and throw up so you could come back.
Marc:Oh, I didn't ever do that.
Marc:You did once a catch, no?
Guest:I threw up a lot.
Yeah.
Guest:To try it and paint it as this quasi-bulimic ethyl optimization plan, I don't know.
Guest:I certainly threw up, and yes, I would be conscious, look, I'm not going to go eat cheese fries if I've only got a half hour before last call.
Guest:I've got common sense.
Yeah.
Marc:So what happened, because you were such a brilliant, genius comic, and then at some point you had had enough of it, or you decided, because I know we all did Conan's, I don't know whether or not you did any half-hour comedy specials, but everybody respected you, you were a fucking great joke writer, and then...
Guest:I got to say, I hope some of this shit you're saying makes it into the interview.
Marc:It's all going to make it in.
Marc:But I mean, I just like I remember there was a point where you hit a fucking wall and I don't I don't know exactly what happened because I think at the time that we did Princeton, you had gotten a job at Catch a Rising Star.
Marc:I don't know how much stand up or at Saturday Night Live.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't know how much stand up you were doing, but there was definitely this feeling that you were fed up with something.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I look back on it now, and two things are true.
Guest:I mean, I think I'm okay about seeing both sides of the coin on things.
Guest:And if I look and I say, well, my stand-up had a lot of great stuff, and I had a charismatic and funny personality, but I never really fused what I did.
Guest:Like when I watch Louis today, let's say, or whatever –
Guest:which is about the only stand-up I've seen.
Guest:I don't see much.
Guest:I happen to watch a special of his.
Guest:I thought it was great.
Guest:I've seen the show a couple times.
Guest:But I saw you do stand-up a few years ago, you know, five years ago.
Guest:And those guys really found their true voice.
Guest:And I don't think I ever really did that because of my commitment to the joke-telling school or whatever, the fact that I sewed myself into that conceptual joke.
Guest:School, you know, based on Stephen Wright's influence.
Marc:And I like that stuff.
Marc:It's almost like math in a way.
Guest:In a way.
Guest:And I love it.
Guest:And I'm, you know, like, I mean, the things I do are math.
Guest:But anybody who knows me knows how hyperverbal and kinetic and wired I am.
Guest:So I was always kind of at cross purposes with myself.
Guest:Like, you know, a good example would be all those times when the Letterman people saw me when I was young.
Guest:That's before I even knew you.
Marc:When you were like 18.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:19, 20.
Guest:And they saw me a ton of times in a two or three month period, 15, 20.
Guest:And I bombed every time.
Guest:But unlike some of the dry guys who, like, you know, I know Stevie Ray Framstein did the show around that time, if you remember that guy.
Guest:You know, dry guys.
Guest:If he didn't get a laugh, you know, because catch was a horrible New York catch was a horrible environment for that type of thing.
Guest:I mean, you know, that's the last thing they wanted to see by the time I was getting on stage.
Guest:But like I couldn't bomb and not comment on it.
Guest:You know, if I bombed and I digressed and whatever.
Guest:So that's one thing.
Guest:I never really found my true voice.
Guest:And that was through.
Guest:And so that's the other thing I point to, which are just laziness and alcoholism.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Two things which are not going to.
Guest:if you're already lazy, and I was before I started drinking heavily every day, then, you know, you're not going to have a work ethic.
Guest:And you still need, you know, I know some of these other people, I mean, that they had drive and they had a work ethic, you know?
Marc:I think your true voice might have been that moment of digression.
Marc:You know, when your anger was focused, I mean, it was fucking frightening.
Marc:Your precision at gutting somebody almost instantaneously was tremendous.
Marc:I can't even remember what got you fired that week that we were working together.
Guest:Oh, no, that was offstage, and it was hardly inspired.
Guest:It was... We were in a bar where there were women.
Guest:Was Eddie Ifft emceeing with us that week?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Eddie Ifft was emceeing.
Marc:That was probably right.
Guest:Like a guy that I, you know, a guy I consider a friend, a guy I really like as a nice guy, you know, and a rather docile, likable type of entertainer.
Guest:Yeah, like a puppy, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and...
Guest:I don't know why it was that night.
Guest:I just couldn't take it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:By that time, I was plenty used to the rejection.
Guest:And that's another reason, like, you know, I I could do well sometimes, but I didn't you know, I bombed one another.
Guest:But I was tired of it.
Guest:I was tired of, you know, and I'd moved to New York.
Guest:And again, if I was doing what I was doing.
Guest:I'm not sure.
Guest:If I was being funny the way I'm being funny now, would it do well in New York?
Guest:It's still kind of too weird and wordy.
Marc:But do you think that sometimes when you get on stage that your immediate ability to get defensive would diminish some of what you're trying to do?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:forgetting even if I take it real well I'm not a real likable guy you know I was never they told me that from the start you know what I mean like uh you know I heard everything like you know you make audiences feel dumb you you're uh you know people don't want to hear berry cats people don't want to hear some kid telling them the way the world is you know like at that time what was your what was your your the joke you were most proud of god
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Look, my stand-up just went on YouTube for the first time in 15 years, whatever, since I last did.
Guest:I have an assistant helping me write this show, and she broke down all the sets and got them transferred to DVD, and she put one on YouTube, and she was going through comic strip sets, too, where I did the chemotherapy joke and whatever.
Guest:I mean, I would say that's what I was known for.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think my favorite joke almost might have been like, do you remember the joke about my dad playing favorites in our family?
Guest:We had a rule where the kids took turns doing dishes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And whenever my little sister started to do the dishes, my father would break down and pay the check.
Guest:I think that was one of my favorite jokes, and the reason was because in an era where the, like, smart comics were making it big on the thesaurus, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, you know, Garofalo, Dennis Miller, and, you know, I mean, I think not that they don't have funny stuff, but a lot of it is presented around, wow, look at these string of words they're throwing together, you know?
Guest:And personally, I think I throw that good a string of words together, you know, extemporaneously.
Guest:But what I liked about a joke like that is there's a lot of intelligence it takes a while to get, but anybody familiar with cliches of American society can put that.
Guest:You're not required even a second-grade education.
Guest:Honestly, if I were to do stand-up, and as I said, I'm going to do a show, but it's not going to be stand-up.
Guest:If any jokes are going to be in it, they're going to be jokes I never did, almost, pretty much.
Marc:So what hit the wall at a...
Marc:It seemed to happen kind of at once.
Marc:You were at SNL.
Marc:And then, you know, when I worked with you, you were you were at an SNL.
Marc:You're pretty confident.
Marc:You know, you sort of arrived.
Marc:You were excited.
Marc:And then like weeks later, it was over.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I got fired from Princeton and shortly after fired from SNL.
Guest:That's what happened.
Marc:And why'd you get fired from SNL?
Guest:I didn't get any jokes on, you know.
Guest:I mean, it's... I'm... Looking back, I'm... You know, whatever.
Guest:There's, again, two ways to see everything, right?
Guest:It was not a fair situation.
Guest:The person...
Guest:responsible for me being you know can't said hey i admit you didn't get a fair shot whatever but that's the way it was on the other hand i made a ton of money i only had to show up for like four weeks you know i mean the only i guess deep and abiding curse is that i like with me if you want to know and like for the record the uh biggest bummer at like getting fired there and not getting hired is that uh
Guest:I was very responsible.
Guest:I mean, I showed up and I did my job and I got along with people.
Guest:Great.
Guest:And you were sober at that point.
Guest:No, no, I was not sober, but I was responsible, you know, and like, cause those were two factors.
Guest:Like, I mean, and also it was always known.
Guest:I remember John Groff telling me like, yeah, you know, I really wasn't sure.
Guest:People thought I'd come in and like, you know, somebody would say something.
Guest:I'd say, fuck you.
Guest:You know, or whatever.
Guest:It wasn't like that.
Guest:You know, so like I got fired because I didn't get jokes on and it was necessary to turn somebody over at that point.
Guest:Like because, you know, you get fired quick and you got a reputation like I do.
Guest:It's a bummer because then people probably say, well, I mean, he did some maniacal thing or he didn't show up because he was hungover.
Guest:And nothing was like that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Did you have any experience with Lorne?
Guest:I went in for the meeting to get the job, and he was disingenuously very pleasant.
Guest:But what was he supposed to be?
Guest:I mean, he's a big, again, I'm just kind of nervous.
Guest:He asked me about Scrabble, blah, blah.
Guest:So I don't know at what point I hit the wall.
Guest:I mean, I think I partly hit the wall honestly.
Guest:I'm going to say I wasn't good enough.
Guest:I appreciate you saying those things because when I honestly tell people, they have no idea how well I was regarded.
Guest:It's so hard.
Guest:And I'm a guy who has to rest on my laurels to get laid.
Guest:I mean, that's all I have.
Guest:Ever since I quit drinking, my life had so much more glamour.
Guest:Everything I accomplished was before I quit drinking.
Guest:But I try not to BS people, but I was like I was disrespected.
Guest:I mean, I sat there with somebody who's now a movie star who I was –
Guest:probably more influential than anybody getting started in comedy.
Guest:And this is before they were starting.
Guest:Janine.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Saying, uh, you're the one person, you know, that everybody knows we'll make it out of this town.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Um, but I don't think I was good enough.
Guest:I think I could have been a lot better and I think there's a lot I had to do, but, um,
Guest:I wasn't good enough.
Guest:I lost my drive.
Guest:I lost it for more than one.
Guest:I was just, look, I was just drunk and tired and lazy and tired of not getting laughs.
Guest:And also, a lot of things didn't go my, I mean, I blame myself and I'm accountable, but I was not the luckiest guy either.
Guest:I mean, I didn't get the right, like the things I got turned down for.
Guest:You know, I told you, how many times did Frank Gannon see me?
Guest:He was Letterman at NBC.
Marc:Oh, right, okay.
Okay.
Guest:finally kill in front of them.
Guest:Robert Morton's there, and they just brought in the new person.
Guest:Her name was Mary Connolly.
Guest:I don't know, I think.
Guest:She used to throw the football with Letterman.
Guest:And so I like killed.
Guest:I'm ready to walk up and figure, you know, well, uh...
Guest:This is awesome because I just killed and I did the cleverest material on the show by far.
Guest:And, you know, that's what they and I shake her hand.
Guest:You ever tell somebody to shake their hand that they just hate you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like and I was like, oh, you know, like, well, I'm not going to be doing this show anytime soon while she's there.
Marc:What was the transition from when did you quit drinking and when did the vitamins start?
Guest:The vitamins started well before I quit drinking and while I still did comedy.
Guest:The vitamins started as an outgrowth of Scrabble and learning about stuff that helped you be sharper mentally.
Marc:I play a little Scrabble.
Marc:When did the Scrabble start?
Marc:Because that seemed to be, that was like, there was these big chunks of your life where I miss is like, you know, okay, you quit comedy and then now you're like, what, number two in the world or number one in the world?
Guest:Now, I was never higher than—a couple times I've been number two in North America on the computer.
Guest:I finished second in the world championships.
Guest:You know, I'm certainly—I mean, it's kind of like comedy.
Guest:I'm regarded as really talented, but I've never won, you know.
Guest:But—
Guest:Yes, that was part of what got me to quit, too.
Guest:I mean, I found another passion, and unlike comedy, look, I was not accepted in Scrabble either, where it's an egghead world, and I had way too much personality for most of these guys.
Guest:But the fact of the matter is, I can just settle the score in an objective manner by playing, and that's not the case in comedy.
Guest:You're always going to have to answer to somebody who's making a call on whether they think you're funny or not.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And sometimes you'll be lucky.
Guest:You'll get them around a crowd in the right situation or whatever.
Guest:I mean, you know.
Marc:But with Scrabble, it's right there.
Guest:Yeah, with Scrabble, I mean, I have an objective measure of deciding.
Guest:You know, like, I mean, there's luck in Scrabble too, but, you know, I'm...
Guest:have a lot more control over it i just stopped being interested in like you know oh so and so got letterman or you know or like uh why didn't i get premium blend you know what i mean or whatever right and so i started saying you know i'd had enough things not go my way that it forced me to develop some character on the issue and when i really did i stopped and thought well uh always looking at what the guy next to me has or i don't have is not a really fun way to live well
Marc:You were kind of collapsed.
Marc:Not unlike me.
Marc:I think that the bitterness probably was choking you, wasn't it?
Marc:I mean, I know in my in my memory that there was we know it's not a meritocracy, but certainly you judged, you know, who deserved what and that you realize at some point like this has got nothing to fucking do with with what I think talent is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there's some of that.
Guest:I don't know if the bitterness choked me.
Guest:I mean, I had plenty of it, but that wasn't... If anything choked me, it was the booze and it was the anger, which went even further back to, like, my childhood in Indiana.
Guest:The bitterness about other comics was real, but it was only surface level.
Guest:I don't think that's anything that ever consumed me.
Guest:However, once I started to change, I didn't want it consuming me at all.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:I'll be depressed because I suffer from depression.
Guest:This is only... I didn't have depression even when I was a drunk.
Guest:But in the past three years, whatever, I've gotten actual depression.
Guest:So I'll be sitting there and my thoughts, not even because I'm forcing them, are completely great.
Guest:I love my cat.
Guest:I'm so lucky to have this apartment, which is pretty decent.
Guest:I turn smoke and mirrors into a halfway decent life.
Guest:And I'll be just thinking thoughts of gratitude and just feeling absolutely miserable.
Guest:The actual feeling is misery.
Guest:We were coming to my stop coming home yesterday on the Long Island Railroad and I was like,
Guest:I don't know if I'll be able to get up and get off and switch trains.
Guest:I may end up going to New York City because I just don't fucking feel like getting up, you know, and I would have done that and I would have just probably felt better by the time I got to Manhattan and taking the train back out to Kew Gardens.
Guest:But, you know, but my thoughts weren't bad.
Guest:My thoughts were, wow, I was playing some speed scrabble today.
Guest:Love that, you know.
Guest:only one experience in my life do i look back at and i can't as a guy who believes in god even really understand what he might be trying to communicate to me with this one you know but it wasn't horrible it was just when i was a freshman i worked really hard um before i was a freshman because i wanted to be on the uh quiz bowl team there and and uh in high school in high school and i'd done a fair amount of work in in
Guest:in prep in the summer.
Guest:My cousin had been on the show.
Guest:He gave me some books.
Guest:And I got there and discovered that two kids who were also going to be freshmen had been practicing with the team all summer through some connection that they had and that there was already this strong team in place and whatever.
Guest:And I got in.
Guest:I was a little spazzed out.
Guest:I didn't think there was a chance of me.
Guest:Maybe I could sneak into the fourth spot.
Guest:Well, all I did was just review the materials that were turned over to me by the sponsor of the team.
Guest:And I was doubling everybody's score pretty much like on most days, you know, two days out of three by the end of the practice cycle.
Guest:And so this woman who had married one of her students, you know, for one thing, calls me over like right before they're, you know, naming the team on the show.
Guest:And she's like,
Guest:I'm not going to put you on, you're too immature.
Guest:She was also friends with the other two freshmen.
Guest:This was her social outlet.
Guest:And...
Guest:you know I was mortified I mean at that point I probably thought I was going on air I still had some doubt because I knew this woman didn't like me but I didn't realize it learned about people that if they have the luxury of doing so they will actually sabotage themselves for the sake of their pride you know what I mean like like you know what I'm saying like if a guy's a company doesn't really need to make money he's gonna hire worse writers than you if you're threatening to him because you happen to be really bright you know right or whatever and if she can keep her click and whatever she probably thought she'd win anyway right
Guest:So the team went out.
Guest:They lost.
Guest:I started crying, I remember, when she told me this, which I thought was a perfectly natural reaction for somebody getting fucked with a hot poker.
Guest:And she's like, and that's another thing.
Guest:I can't stand men who cry.
Guest:And I'm like, what?
Guest:Now I'm a fucking man?
Guest:You just said I was too immature.
Guest:You're confusing the hell out of me.
Guest:And all it is is just some awful person who's batshit nuts, and you encounter those in your life.
Guest:But all the other times that I've encountered somebody doing something shitty, I could see some...
Guest:I didn't get a job at Conan, even though I got a ton of jokes on all three times I wrote there, but I would not have been able to quit drinking if I got that job, so I see the good result.
Guest:I tried to play college basketball when I was 39.
Guest:I got cut, and I probably should have made the team and whatever.
Marc:Let's talk about that, though, because that's the last time I saw you.
Marc:I ran into you on the street, and you're like...
Marc:I'm 40 years old and I got the body of a 20 year old.
Marc:You're excited.
Marc:You're like, it was almost as if you might've said that to a few strangers that had walked by.
Guest:I probably did.
Marc:And you started talking to me like, you know, like I'm going to enroll in classes because I'm going to play college ball.
Marc:And it was one of those moments where I'd seen you on and off over the years where I'm like, I don't know where he's, I don't know what he's doing.
Marc:You know, it's like, I just saw Matt Graham, he's 40, he's going to play college basketball.
Marc:But then you fucking did it.
Guest:Well, I didn't do it because I didn't quite make it.
Guest:I mean, I would.
Marc:What was the process?
Marc:You enrolled in classes.
Guest:The process I enrolled in school out here in Jamaica.
Marc:Because it was a dream of yours.
Guest:It was a dream.
Guest:I love playing ball.
Guest:And I, you know, I started really late.
Guest:I mean, I didn't really touch a basketball till I was like 15 or 16, you know, and most guys playing organized ball have been playing since they were little kids, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I played streetball for a lot of years.
Guest:But, you know, I was very crafty.
Guest:I got better and better.
Guest:And, you know, aside from the fact that I developed osteoarthritis by the time I was 22, every other aspect of me improved, like physically strength and, you know, all my skills and whatever.
Guest:And so I just thought I wanted to go and play the real thing somewhere.
Guest:So, you know, like I didn't have anything else to do.
Guest:I wasn't doing comedy.
Guest:I wasn't seeing that, you know, so I was like, let's chase this dream.
Guest:So I started going playing every day and fared well frequently.
Guest:Again, I'd fare well by results, you know, but then I would have somebody, uh, you know, making a subjective determination.
Guest:The head coach is a great guy.
Guest:I really like him and I really believe he wanted me on the team.
Guest:And he told me that when he caught me, but that he had two assistant coaches who were not, um,
Guest:interested in my presence on the team.
Guest:And one of them I was quite friendly with, and she told me, well, we needed somebody who could shoot.
Guest:And I made five out of ten three-pointers in the drills we did, so I don't really know what she was watching.
Marc:Do you think it was ageism?
Guest:Oh, I think ageism is a small factor.
Guest:I think it was racism.
Guest:I mean, the coaching staff was all black.
Guest:The whole school has, like, let's say, I'm guessing about five to seven white guys in it, and five of them are Russian, and one would have the nickname White Chocolate, and then there would be me, the 39-year-old egghead from Indiana, trying out for the basketball team, no less.
Guest:so i don't think it was like blatant nasty racism but i think this woman seeing a guy make five out of ten threes if she's looking but thinking i can't shoot it's some sort of not and it may be age too um you know and there was one coach he was hard on my ass i couldn't tell if he liked me or not and you know but i did stuff like you know look this is how things go for me years ago i played ball with conan well before i worked at the show you know like i said but
Guest:You know, like I said, after three strong performances, I didn't get a job.
Guest:Now I'd be still drunk, but I'd be financially sad, theoretically, or God knows what happened.
Guest:You know, I go up for a rebound and my elbow finds his face, you know, like, and of course, you know, when it's Conan O'Brien, oh, he elbowed him in the face, you know, it's like my elbow went, I knew how to move on a basketball court.
Guest:And this sort of thing that happened to me.
Guest:My first, my one of my second basketball.
Yeah.
Guest:It happens in basketball, and I did not swing my elbow, and it was his fault, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:You think it had some implications?
Guest:He was not pleasant about it after it happened.
Guest:Hey, they put me on the show a bunch of times, and he hired me three times.
Guest:I replaced all three joke writers when they went on hiatus, but it's when the full-time job came available.
Guest:I mean, I got like 40% of the jokes on while I was there.
Guest:So among three writers, it's hard.
Guest:And one of them is Brian Kiley.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you know how hard it is to get 40% of the jokes on when Brian Kiley's writing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he's as good a joke writer as there is in the business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I was kind of lucky.
Guest:But again, I, you know, I earned the job.
Guest:I didn't get it.
Guest:And that's part of, I mean, I'm going to be very frank.
Guest:As I said, I was a drunk.
Guest:I'm accountable.
Guest:Like, I identify loser.
Guest:But at the same time, it's hard to try and do shit when you've had so much stuff like this done to you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I want to do this show.
Guest:I can do this show.
Guest:I mean, I know I still have a personality.
Guest:I think I'm showing it today, right?
Guest:But who's going to come see the show?
Guest:And if somebody comes to see the show, whatever, I mean, I'm the only person.
Guest:What I want ideally to do...
Guest:is want so much to express myself that I do the show and I'm driven and I write my ass off and I do the best show I can and in the words of the cliche that I hear where I like I'm rowing I'm just rowing and I let God take over whether I get but you know I I like sex so much and I like it with women and women always want you to do shit
Guest:And be accomplishing something and have some sort of mission.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So that gets in the back of my head.
Guest:As well as the fact is the show is like about this like semi-Messiah complex, biggest loser with women ever, you know, and it's hardly really the way to vet yourself, you know, to get lots of tail like...
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Come see the show.
Guest:You're going to dig it when I tell you how women have jerked me around and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:So I have a hard time separating that.
Guest:But again, all I do is I stay the course and not have a drink a day at a time, and I do my other stuff.
Marc:So the show is about your experience with women?
Guest:The show is going to be partly sweeping autobiography.
Guest:I probably won't touch on some stuff much, but I'll give them an idea.
Guest:And I'm going to get started on where my neuroses with women got started, which really got started just by being the first kid to like them.
Guest:Just like when I was already doing the Woody Allen routines when I was four years old, I was already digging on chicks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And nobody really knew what to make of that.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I would just sit around and daydream about them and stare at them.
Guest:And I didn't know about tab A into slot B yet or anything, obviously, but I was still really cuckoo for them.
Guest:And so I sort of hit on them in whatever way I could.
Guest:I'd throw something extra in the Valentine card that we had to send everybody.
Guest:A little something extra.
Guest:A couple candy hearts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, like a few words, a few words from the heart, you know, because I wrote poetry, too, when I was like that age.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Hopefully I've grown to where I won't express with verbal nastiness what I think of somebody on the street.
Guest:You know, I've gotten beyond that.
Guest:And the online stuff is more funny.
Guest:Like, you know, I don't know if, you know, I mean, I just sit around and for the creativity, I just write the most outrageous things I can.
Guest:I wrote to this one, I'm on OkCupid, you know.
Guest:And so there was this chick, and she seemed like kind of a train wreck, you know, in a lot of ways.
Guest:But her profile was overtly sexual, which I always really like.
Guest:And, you know, so I decided to drop her a line.
Guest:You know, I know what to say.
Guest:I was kind of out of her age range, as I am most of the time anymore.
Guest:And I thought it was pretty funny, because, like, there's a category on this dating site that says...
Guest:Was it, oh, I spend a lot of time thinking about.
Guest:So her responses were like, you know, what people look like naked, who will be the next person I sleep with.
Guest:And then about midway down through the thing was one of the things she, after some more like pedestrian stuff, was gang rape in the Congo, right?
Right.
Guest:So I was like, well, I got to write to this girl.
Guest:So I write and I was like, hey, sugar, you know, if I'm not too old or whatever, I'd love to treat you to a quiet dinner and maybe a simulated jungle gang rape.
Guest:And, you know, which to me is pretty good.
Guest:You mentioned it.
Guest:It's pretty clearly a joke.
Guest:And so she writes back.
Guest:Did you just try and entice me with the threat of rape?
Guest:You know, like, which, you know, it's... And so, you know, my first thing is always a man.
Guest:So I'm like, hey, I'm sorry.
Guest:I didn't mean to offend.
Guest:You mentioned it.
Guest:I thought it would be certainly interpreted as a joke.
Guest:And B...
Guest:there is no way i would ever spend the money involved for a simulated gang rape on a first date i mean you're talking a lot of like layout even if you can find like a subway acapella group to work cheap you've got house plants you know you got to hit a herp guy to get at least one good snake in the picture so what's your primary source of income um
Guest:Right now, it's Scrabble, tutoring, and playing poker, which I make money at, but not a ton.
Guest:And, you know, I scrape by right now.
Guest:You know, I had...
Guest:going back about three years, uh, two or three years where I wrote for game shows.
Guest:And so I did kind of okay in that period.
Guest:I mean, things have worked out very well in that department because, you know, if one source of income falls and I would like, I learned to play poker after I got back from Canada, let's say probably six years ago now, you know, and of course I was not a winning poker player for two or three years.
Guest:Um, but you know, I was playing more Scrabble and had other work, you know, had game show work and,
Guest:You know, some writing work still pops up, I mean, you know, but not as much as I would like.
Marc:You're a chess guy?
Marc:You play chess?
Guest:I do not play chess.
Marc:No, you never got into that one?
Guest:I, you know, I was in fifth grade chess club, but the game doesn't really interest me that much.
Guest:I love Scrabble and, you know, I mean, I don't like poker all that much.
Guest:Like, it's interesting.
Guest:Like, you know, I play with a bunch of guys who love playing poker, you know, and they can't understand, you know, like, but they don't understand, like, not only do I not want to be addicted to it and have to be very practical about my approach, but I know it's easy to not be addicted to it because I don't like it.
Guest:It's not nearly as interesting to me as Scrabble.
Marc:What's so interesting about Scrabble?
Guest:You're just solving a puzzle every second.
Guest:And when I play speech Scrabble, you know, I'm solving a puzzle every turn.
Guest:And, uh, when I'm playing speed and I'm only got about three minutes, I'm solving a puzzle every turn and my turns every 10 seconds.
Guest:And, you know, it's the kind of adrenaline rush I'm looking for.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, uh,
Guest:Scrabble is just a really under like it's funny because at the poker game where they're mostly like finance guys, they'll say, you know, some math thing will come up and they'll say, well, that's, you know, whatever.
Guest:Oh, that's it.
Guest:They wanted something spelled, whatever.
Guest:It was onomatopoeia.
Guest:The word came up.
Guest:And I took a stab at it and nailed it.
Guest:I wasn't 100% sure I would.
Guest:And so I said, yeah, the Scrabble, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But Scrabble's a math game, 90%.
Guest:But what's really cool about Scrabble is it has, unlike any other game of the great games, you're talking about backgammon, like Go, which is the hardest game, chess.
Guest:It's got all these elements.
Guest:It's got...
Guest:Basically a math game where you have to have intuitive probabilistic sense, intuitive sense of equities involved, but you also need verbal skills.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You need to be able to find the words.
Guest:It's unclear even whether anagramming is a math brain task or a verbal task.
Guest:And you also have poker elements.
Guest:You can play phony words, and people play phony words against you, and you have to know about risk versus reward, and it helps to be able to read people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so there's just a lot going on.
Guest:So it's a it's a total brain challenge.
Guest:I mean, I just I don't play tournaments anymore because, again, I don't like to leave the cat overnight.
Marc:So, you know, and chicks don't dig Scrabble players.
Guest:Some of them do.
Guest:You know, sometimes they say it's really hot, whatever.
Guest:I mean, you know, a big part of it is my attitude.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And it's not like I don't get to date people or whatever, you know, and and quite honestly, I mean,
Guest:If I were out more and meeting people, I would probably have more opportunities.
Guest:But again, it's all timing with me.
Guest:I mean, the other day, you know, after I'd sat here with my Achilles tendon...
Guest:sat on it for a month so i go out for a date for the first time some girl and uh you know so i'm limping but i'm like roughly more presentable than i usually am and i get there early and i go down to the subway to refill my metro card and i get stopped by a girl pretty cute and she's like it's your name matt you know and she's like i just saw the movie you know and she starts talking to me or whatever and
Guest:But you have to understand, I mean, I was killing it.
Guest:I was working on this show.
Guest:I was at my best place I've been before I tore my Achilles tendon.
Guest:It was my best spot in years in terms of productivity.
Guest:But depression came back full force when you just sit on your ass for a month and you can't go anywhere.
Guest:So this girl starts talking to me and I like answer the questions.
Guest:And then it's like kind of apparent that, oh, whatever.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:Okay, well, thanks.
Guest:You know, like, thanks for asking about it.
Guest:And she was cute enough that whatever, like, I should have been... But, you know, like, I just got all awkward.
Guest:But, you know, I was not, like, prepared for any kind of interaction.
Guest:She's like, oh, okay, and whatever.
Guest:And I was like, you know, oh, of course I was supposed to maybe get this girl's number and talk with her about the film, you know, see what it's like to have coffee with her, you know, whatever.
Guest:But it was the exact...
Guest:Let me put it this way.
Guest:It was the worst time in five years for someone to approach me.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:For a random conversation.
Guest:It was only my second time being recognized for the movie.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I'm the king of horrible timing.
Guest:The movie is word wars.
Guest:So this girl comes up to me.
Guest:I like abruptly dismiss her like I've never spoken to a woman in my life.
Guest:Then I go upstairs, have the date.
Guest:The date's really hot, right?
Guest:She's not into me.
Guest:I mean, she's nice, you know, so the date goes well, but she doesn't dig me, but she's really hot.
Guest:So I leave there, I'm on cloud nine.
Guest:So if I bump into the girl in the subway after the thing, I'm a new man, right?
Guest:But not me, you know?
Guest:It happens before.
Guest:When I'm like, uh, you know, like, you know, like I'm, you know, like I have the conversational skills of a standard paranoid schizophrenic, you know, looking down, you know, dressing, whatever.
Guest:I mean, and that just sums it up.
Guest:And that's what it's been like for me.
Guest:And, you know, so, but that's what I'm hoping.
Guest:I mean, you know, I'm just hoping that like God throws me the loser niche and I can grab the, you know, do you feel like a loser out there?
Guest:Will you identify with me?
Guest:You know, and then I can start thinking big, like my own religion or whatever.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:How bad is your depression got?
Guest:it's never it it dogs the hell out of me but it's never been severe i mean i'm never somebody who lays in bed all day you know what i mean and i'm still making choices like i make a lot of choices to be home because i want to be home because i you know value my time with this cat so much with the cat so you've never thought have you ever thought about ending it
Guest:My life?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:No, I mean, you know, let me put it this way.
Guest:What depression did do, actually, is make me think, well, I see how people could get suicidal.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's never, you know, I mean...
Guest:I honestly, I mean, I, you know, take antidepressants, but I honestly think so many of my issues are fixable through leading a more sociable life.
Guest:So I'm torn.
Guest:I mean, I'll tell you, honestly, at times I'm torn because I feel, I mean, this cat, I'm not joking.
Guest:You just have to understand.
Guest:I like cats, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love cats.
Yeah.
Guest:really loved i just had a i've had a couple cats dive and whatever i've had three cats in sobriety but this cat um and people have a hard time this cat i i didn't just like it because i was depressed and it was there for me this cat i became at some point i loved it more than any other being i've ever loved
Guest:I just really like his personality for some reason when I got him we thought he was a she he was a she for like two years solid I wasn't like I brought him in I had another cat and I was afraid jeez I brought in this stray I hope it doesn't kill my other cat you know and then within like five days I come in I look for the new cat you know and to see him sitting there and I'm like god I hope pebbles you know because the girl the he's just so sweet I think that's why I love him I mean I held him up for you but this is the meekest animal I mean
Guest:when pebbles had cancer and they they destroyed one of her arms removing a tumor and did nerve damage so here here's ruth and he would be utterly dominated his name is still ruth yeah i kept the original name uh dominated by this female cat that's five pounds lighter with a missing front leg and he just backed
Guest:you know what i mean i mean she didn't have to tell him twice where to go you know yeah and i love that about him you know i brought in a kitten i want him to have company and the kitten just immediately was alpha you know and ruth would have to back away behind his litter box and so it just wasn't going to work and so my i feel for him you know because i i identify you know for a guy who's like i mean i can talk i'm extra like i'm
Guest:a very aggressive basketball player.
Guest:I'm very aggressive about things I'm trained to be.
Guest:I'm not the most aggressive poker player, but I'm aggressive when I'm required to be.
Guest:That's more of a bankroll consideration.
Guest:I'm not an aggressive person.
Guest:I hold the door for people.
Guest:I'm aggressive when countered, when people mentally note me as meek,
Guest:and try and take advantage of that, I'm a bad recipe for a human being is what I am.
Guest:If you're pretty sweet, people will try and walk on you.
Guest:And if you're confrontational, people don't like that at all.
Guest:And that's really how I am.
Guest:I'm not meek because I'm unwilling to stand up for myself.
Guest:I'm just meek just because that's always how I was.
Guest:Even my dad, who I don't think... My dad's like, yeah, you always had the biggest heart ever since you were like...
Guest:for other people since you were like five years old you know what i mean and that's why you like this cat i like him because yeah he's just sweet i mean he needed me i mean he came up to me he was rubbing on my leg for food in front of the bodega and i lived in harlem and there were just so many pit bulls and stuff around and so he rubbed on me for food and i gave this like homeless woman some money for her and to keep feeding him and
Guest:And I was like, it just bothered me how social this cat was and whatever.
Guest:And I went out looking for him and he's sleeping right on the corner at night in front of the bodega.
Guest:Cat didn't even have the sense to get on a heating grate behind a fence.
Guest:And I just was not going to stand for that.
Guest:So me and the girl I was seeing, we stuck him in a backpack and brought him home.
Guest:So yeah, I love him that much.
Guest:So I feel like on one hand, I'm blessed because I get what I want.
Guest:I get to, you know, with these like odd little ways I have of bringing in my money, I get to spend so much time with somebody.
Guest:To me, he's a person that I love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On the other hand, that very – it's still he doesn't speak English.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like there's gaps.
Guest:And I keep myself too isolated, and I think that partly feeds – I mean I need more contact with people.
Guest:I mean like mostly you're interviewing people that are active in show business or in life to some degree somehow.
Guest:Like you come with me like you didn't need to put this in front of my face.
Guest:I need somebody to talk to.
Guest:you know oh thank god somebody's here you know i mean like again we talk it's got that like that that's great because it has the old person feel too i talked about being old you know and i'm like the like shut-in guy well i'll tell you that it's uh it was fucking great to talk to you either way well it was good talking to you thanks man
Marc:All right, so at this point, I've had that one conversation with Matt, and I knew there was other things that I'd heard about him that I couldn't get to because I didn't know if he wanted to talk about it.
Marc:I had sort of teased it a little bit when I was talking to him, what you just heard, but it didn't come out.
Marc:And then I called him back.
Marc:And he was like, well, let's do more.
Marc:Let's do it again.
Marc:Let's do another one.
Marc:So this part where I get into some of this stuff that got very dark in his life was a second interview that he came to my hotel.
Marc:And we dealt with it.
Marc:And it's gnarly.
Marc:It's gnarly.
Marc:Well, this is the second session with Matt Graham.
Marc:I guess it's, what is it, about five weeks apart?
Marc:When was that?
Guest:I can't tell you, but I mean, it's inside of three months.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, between a month and two months.
Marc:And a couple of things have happened since then.
Marc:You know, you got on the comedy stage for the first time in eight years.
Marc:And also, well, let's talk about what that was like because, you know, you're incredibly sort of wrapped up about it.
Marc:Am I?
Marc:Well, you were.
Marc:Oh, wrapped up beforehand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Apprehensive.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I went to do it one week, and honest to God, I mean, I was more nervous than any of my network television appearances.
Guest:I was nervous all day.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I wasn't even doing very much stand-up when I did Conan's.
Guest:I would get a call, and then I wouldn't have done stand-up for a month, and I'd go do six sets the night before.
Guest:But if I'd had something, like here I'm just doing the beauty bar for 12 people,
Guest:And I was still, you know, I couldn't have done something like Conan.
Guest:I really would have just passed out.
Marc:What was it when you were sitting there waiting?
Marc:So it was at an alternative room, right?
Marc:And it was how many people?
Marc:It's an open mic.
Guest:It's an alt room, whatever.
Guest:I think there were about 15 people in the crowd.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The first week got canceled, so I went through all that stress for nothing, and I almost just retired again after the cancellation because it was too much anxiety all day.
Guest:But I decided if I – I think I listened to some Jimmy Cliff or something and decided if I went down that easy, there was really no hope for me except like the 12th Street Mission or whatever.
Guest:That's where I was going to end up.
Guest:So I pulled my balls out and did the next week.
Guest:What were the main fears?
Guest:The fears bombing, getting really nervous.
Guest:I actually added some fear in the second week and I'll tell that story because whatever.
Guest:But I mean, the fear was just being out of place.
Guest:You know, I mean, I'm an old man now, you know, it's a kid's industry and.
Guest:You know, my brain's not the same.
Guest:I'm sure it was the depression problems that made me really, really nervous, you know, because back then I had all these other issues.
Guest:But, you know, I didn't have this underlying constant sense of dread that nothing would ever work out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and you take that to the stage.
Guest:I mean, you know, hey, everybody, you know, it's kind of.
Guest:There's no hope.
Guest:Let me get started.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I think I said something like that, probably.
Guest:I mean, I did, but what I wanted to do was realize I'm up there for this depression.
Guest:I want a creative outlet.
Guest:I need to talk to people.
Guest:I don't talk to people the way I don't do anything.
Guest:I sit with my cat.
Guest:So this is now people for me to talk to.
Guest:And, you know, I also had, remember the issue now...
Guest:All the Conans I did, except for the last one, I took a bunch of, not a bunch, a couple of swigs of vodka, not even enough to affect me.
Guest:I had my little flask with the happy face on it.
Guest:But generally, I did those sober.
Guest:But, you know, 90% plus of all the comedy I ever did, I was between buzzed and plastered.
Guest:You know, so I had this.
Guest:Now, I had done some sobriety and stand up and I was more comfortable then, but I wasn't depressed and it was not as far gone of a habit.
Guest:You know, so now I got to go into and think, God, my life sucks.
Guest:I can't just pick up a drink to be more comfortable on stage because then it'll really crash and burn.
Guest:So what happened?
Guest:what happened well the first part of the story is i couldn't get you know i have no friend network at all really anymore so you know my best friend uh janine detulio was gonna come writer from conan comic yeah comic uh rachel feinstein like my fourth best friend yeah uh comic and really one of my more trusted creative voices she couldn't come because she was busy with stand up um
Guest:So I had to kind of go it alone.
Guest:And I had met this girl online who turned out to be a comic, you know, and share a couple of things with me.
Guest:And it was sort of weird.
Guest:I mean, basically, we had a great rapport messaging and she seemed really smart.
Guest:And so I thought I was headed to be friends with this girl, you know, even though it was a dating, you know, I'd met her through a dating circle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was familiar with the place, and she came out and met me that afternoon beforehand.
Guest:So it went from a day to her doing me a favor, being my backbone of moral support.
Guest:And were you spinning?
Guest:Were you freaking out?
Guest:I wasn't super freaking out, but I was going 100 miles an hour, and she's giving me advice about how to handle this, which is alternately good and bad.
Guest:I try to take her advice.
Guest:I try to take suggestions.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:huh you didn't get defensive no i wasn't defensive about that and you know i mean what did happen i mean you know to to bring this story to to um you know because i want to talk about the stand-up what did happen is uh i did listen to her even if i thought it was condescending of her to give me advice you know whatever it didn't bother me um i was just wrapped up in trying to get this done and get through it i sent you some advice i think didn't i
Marc:Huh?
Guest:I ask you for advice, though.
Guest:There's a big difference.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:So anyway, this girl met me for coffee.
Guest:She was attractive for sure.
Guest:She looked real nice, especially she's kind of near my age.
Guest:But I didn't think she was into me.
Guest:But I definitely still thought it would be a friendly thing.
Guest:So I want to go back to the set.
Guest:So I'll see what happens.
Guest:So I see her.
Guest:Everything's real cool before whatever.
Guest:my set talk about you know well i mean i talked about what a loser i am because that's what i want to talk about anymore and i talked about getting 170 straight rejections on okcupid which is where i met this woman and i don't know if that somehow made her but like when i saw her after the show and i wasn't thinking this i was getting anywhere i mean you know i thought she was cute i didn't feel she felt the vibe for me
Guest:but her body language was like somebody who had like i had followed her a few blocks and was trying to get in the front door of her apartment building so what was going to be a total high for me because i had a good set just turned into total like outrage because so i emailed the next woman i was like woman the next day i was like you're cute whatever you know or that's not the first thing i said i was like hey i had a nice time i think you're really smart you know you're
Guest:You're nice to look at.
Guest:I hope we get to talk some more.
Guest:So she sends the blow-off thing, and neither there or in the blow-off thing did she say, even though she knew what was writing like eight years, she didn't say one complimentary word even slightly.
Guest:And I had a good set.
Guest:I mean, I'm not saying I had the best set of the night.
Guest:Maybe I had the worst set of the night, but I got laughs, and my stuff is generally pretty unmistakable as clever and different.
Guest:And I just thought that, I mean, what got me about it is,
Guest:And somebody knowing that you're in that vulnerable position can't say – I mean, I can watch anybody do stand-up and think they're horrible.
Guest:And if they were a friend or whatever, I mean, I could find something positive to say.
Guest:So I mean, yeah, all I can assume is she just – as they all are on some level, a soul-crushing cunt, that that's her purpose, that that's why she was in my path.
Guest:And I only regret it.
Guest:Because I would have been high off that set for two days, and instead I was in a super depressed funk.
Guest:Now the set was good.
Guest:I did some old jokes, but I didn't stick to them.
Guest:I did some new jokes that were joke joke type of thing.
Marc:Did you bring up the soul-crushing cunt thing during the set?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:And I don't mean to specifically label her as a cunt.
Guest:I just kind of regard women as Satan's pep squad, and they're here to get men to fucking debase themselves and sell themselves for what they have.
Marc:There's no middle ground?
Guest:You know, I was like I do.
Guest:I live a middle ground.
Guest:But when I'm running, you know, when I'm running my mouth about it, I'm not a middle ground type of person.
Guest:That's not how I'm not Michael Moore, where everything is like black and white.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like I had my heart pretty well smashed by a woman.
Marc:And I still I for some reason don't generalize across the board.
Guest:Well, you know, you do better with women than I do.
Guest:So, you know, since I lost my virginity at 22, I've gone three years without having sex, another three years without having sex, another two years without having sex.
Guest:These are all the overs.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Nobody gets, you know, nobody.
Guest:I said this in the set and I exaggerated the number, the 170.
Guest:But I did look out of like 80 or 90 and then I stopped counting.
Guest:I'd only gotten two responses.
Guest:And they were both like just sociable, you know, not like willing to go on a date with me.
Marc:Why do you think that is?
Marc:Are you being too honest in your bio?
Guest:Well, I am very honest in my bio, but what the fuck is wrong with being honest?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:I mean, like I found it sad.
Guest:I know this like crazy mixed up woman in Barcelona who I really hit it off with, you know, and we just go back and forth and she's like, you know, you know, at first she's like, take the naked pictures down, you know, but like nobody can see them.
Guest:So it doesn't fucking matter.
Guest:Have you?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I have them.
Guest:They have a list so you can like show, you know what I mean?
Marc:So you have fully naked pictures.
Guest:Yeah, they're not like, you know, but they're just to show my body more than anything else when it was in really good shape.
Guest:So, you know, I don't give a fuck.
Guest:I mean, you know, I have no shame.
Guest:So...
Guest:But she said, OK, so when she got past that, she's like, yeah, I think you're being too honest.
Guest:Like when you talk about your cat and how much you love him, you know, you're going to make women think that you'll be like Frankenstein with them, you know, because I give him like meds and he needs subcutaneous fluids.
Guest:And I mean, personally, anybody who would think that, I mean, I know women read in something and everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But who would for her to even think that I take care of my cat who is ill and try and provide him a better and longer life.
Guest:That means I won't let you unplug.
Guest:I won't let them unplug life support.
Guest:You know, if you're my life partner, that's quite a fucking jump.
Guest:You know, I mean, and and furthermore, I just think it's like, you know, I don't think it's appealing.
Marc:You read things into things, too.
Yeah.
Guest:For a neurotic, very little.
Guest:You know, I'm willing to take a lot of things at face value.
Guest:You know, like, let's say, what do you want to say that I just read something into?
Guest:I read into this woman not complimenting me, right?
Marc:But that's a pretty direct read.
Marc:Well, it didn't happen, and your expectations, you felt hurt by that.
Guest:I felt hurt by that only because I thought it was a bare minimum of manners, not because she had to think I was funny.
Guest:The point is, if she thought I was the unfunniest thing, knowing my position, being on stage for the first time in eight years, I would do the right thing.
Marc:So you could say I read something into it.
Marc:What about the Achilles tendon thing in the hallway?
Marc:You were talking about your regular poker game and how you hadn't lost so much since you started playing at that particular game.
Marc:Not lost so much.
Marc:Not lost that many sessions in a row.
Marc:Sessions, okay, in a row.
Marc:And then you said that you had all these negative responses on the dating site, and it was just all connected to the fact that you injured your Achilles tendon.
Marc:So I said, well, that's sort of metaphoric.
Marc:That is sort of the Achilles heel idea in a way.
Guest:Yeah, that my Achilles proved to be my Achilles tendon.
Guest:Is what you were saying.
Guest:Yeah, I meant to text my writer's assistant with that because that's not too bad.
Guest:No, what I'm saying is my life runs in these stark rhythms, right?
Guest:Like right before that happened, I mean, I was killing that poker game.
Guest:I was winning a lot more than I've lost since then, right?
Guest:You know, I was dating someone and had other options to date if that was not going well.
Guest:And for the first time I was working on something...
Guest:creatively this show and I'd hired and was paid and I was getting places with it and I was ready to go the first do the first uh you know like 10 minutes in front of my acting coach and then boom I tore that and then you know I told you how it's been you know whatever let's not say 170 but let's say 100 state rejections okay
Guest:which is pretty significant.
Guest:I said when I was on stage that I could do better as a high-functioning Down syndrome, get more women to respond to me, if only to be nice.
Guest:And so if my honesty is a problem, whatever, I think honesty is great.
Guest:But again, I paint with a broad brush, and most people aren't that honest, but women don't like it at all.
Marc:They want everything couched.
Marc:They're selectively honest.
Guest:Well, I'm just honest.
Guest:I only lie, cheat, and steal when I've got to come up with the rent money.
Guest:Outside of that, I'm trying to represent everything, not mislead.
Guest:I'm really trying to do the right things.
Marc:That brings us to this other thing.
Marc:To be honest with you, one of the main reasons we're having a second meeting was that I talked to you for over an hour the last time.
Marc:We talked about a lot of stuff about depression and this and that.
Marc:And I brought a certain amount of information to the table that I didn't know whether or not you were going to get into.
Marc:Because I remember years ago, there was an incident where you definitely tried to injure yourself.
Marc:So I thought that by bringing up depression— I did not try to injure myself.
Guest:I tried to fucking kill myself.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And in the conversation— Let's not be euphemistic.
Guest:I think that's where we hit the problem the first time.
Marc:Well, you were talking about depression.
Marc:I said, do you ever think about suicide?
Marc:And you said no.
Guest:And I told you, you asked me if I ever thought about suicide.
Guest:First, you asked me about the depression that I'm currently undergoing, right?
Guest:I've only had depression for three years, right?
Guest:I tried to kill myself 13 years ago.
Guest:And I think part of the problem here is, Jesus, Mark, you've known me for 25 years.
Guest:If you want me to talk about something, just fucking ask.
Guest:Don't dance like a girl.
Guest:Did we meet on OKCupid?
Guest:OK, all right.
Guest:Oh, see, I told you I was going to rib you about this.
Guest:Oh, no, I don't care.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:And it's very nice that you specified that I only merit a second interview because I've got such like a juicy, you know, National Enquirer fucking shit.
Marc:Well, it's not even National Enquirer.
Marc:It was just that like...
Marc:I have a tremendous amount of respect for you.
Marc:And I, you know, nobody knows who I am.
Marc:You can't, you got your celebrities who, no, no, no, it's not even that it was like, cause I look, I was only delicate in that, you know, you, um, I certainly didn't want to get your riled up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I figured that if I, if I, a lot of people get worried about that, but nothing ever really happens.
Marc:No, but the intellectual attack can be a bit... When I said just ask me about it, I'm not saying they're on the mic because you sprung.
Guest:I'm saying ask me beforehand that you want to talk about it.
Guest:So, okay, so we'll address that.
Guest:So you asked me about it.
Guest:You said depression.
Guest:Do you ever think about suicide?
Guest:No, I don't think about suicide anymore.
Guest:You didn't ask me did I try to commit suicide, which I can tell you about that or whatever, and I can tell you that...
Guest:Thoughts of suicide are more... They're on the fringe today, you know, because my life, like I said, you know, rejection, constant losses at poker, even if I might be the best player in the game.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just nothing fucking works for me.
Guest:So I think about suicide more in a sense like...
Guest:as something that will have to be taken care of.
Guest:Not like, you know, get milk, mail letter, kill self, but more like throw out the first pitch at Fenway, see you Australia, kill self.
Guest:That type of thing.
Guest:Are you doing that in the act?
Guest:No, that's not.
Guest:I just made that up now.
Guest:Okay, well, you know, I'm already going to ask you to pick the title for the show.
Guest:So, you know, throw it in.
Guest:I mean, I should have emailed the Achilles thing.
Guest:So as I told you, the only thing I'm reluctant to talk about is all the crazy shit I was seeing walking around for months.
Guest:You know, like I, you know, had become like I didn't know if it was religious.
Guest:I didn't know if it was the Illuminati creating a new world order.
Guest:You know, I don't know.
Guest:You were seeing signs and everything.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, like there was stuff where it's definitely like I was anagramming tiles and, you know, I draw Scrabble tiles and feel like they would fucking tell me something.
Marc:But see, I had that, too.
Marc:I mean, I wrote about it in my book.
Marc:I coked myself into a slightly psychotic state in California.
Marc:And I thought there was a huge system at hand and that I was to be a messenger of some sort.
Marc:And I was hearing voices in my head.
Marc:And it was bad.
Marc:It took me about a year and a half to shake that shit.
Marc:And it's weird when you hear voices in your head that it's literally like a, it sounds like a, like a, like if you were to close your eyes in a movie theater before a movie starts and everyone's jabbering, like I really used to say like, you know, think to myself, if someone's got something to say, you know, make it clear.
Marc:So I understand what I'm supposed to do.
Marc:Like I would look at, you know, photographs and I would, I had a whole sim, like there was a symbol, like Hollywood at that time, I was at the comedy store, like everything represented, you know, parts of this evil empire that was,
Marc:was uh you know completely poetic i was going into magic stores and seeing i mean i was fucking i i know what a little of that feels like that there was a system at hand i i couldn't crack it but i knew eventually i would be given the necessary tools well you know like well that's nice because you have a more optimistic outlook than i do you know yeah i uh
Marc:But I ran away terrified.
Marc:I mean, I left because I thought I was being chased by things I didn't understand.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, me too.
Guest:So whatever.
Guest:The schism here is just that a lot of times walking around and pre-before things went really bad.
Guest:This all occurred after the firing from SNL.
Guest:And I was also using something called GHB to great excess.
Guest:This shit, you take it.
Guest:Sometimes you get real groovy feelings.
Guest:Sometimes you just sleep.
Guest:That's really what I wanted to use it for.
Marc:What was it for?
Marc:Oh, sleep?
Guest:Well, it releases growth hormone.
Guest:You can use it for different stuff.
Guest:Is it human growth hormone?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, it isn't human growth hormone.
Guest:It's just the form of a chemical.
Guest:They use it in jet degreaser.
Guest:And I was taking that.
Guest:And most of the psycho stuff, I got locked up twice wearing the styrofoam slippers over this type of shit.
Guest:What led up to that?
Guest:Me seeing the things.
Marc:And who'd you tell to get locked up, though?
Guest:I just told, you know, like, I mean, whoever would listen, you know what I mean?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:I mean, which wasn't that many people.
Guest:I mean, you know, like I told my friends and they're like, no, that, you know, can't be.
Guest:That doesn't sound, you know, like you must be.
Guest:I'm like, whatever.
Guest:So I think the first time, you know, I was kind of coerced, but it was sort of voluntary.
Guest:And then the second time I was just like feeling too much pressure and I wanted to go there.
Guest:It was on my fucking birthday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were just in lockup or how did that work?
Guest:No, no, it wasn't like the super psych ward.
Guest:It wasn't like super secure or anything.
Guest:I just got in there, you know, and they told me, you know, how it was, you know, and whatever.
Guest:And, you know, I mean, basically the parts I struggle with are the things I was seeing outside when I wasn't in like my most, you know, and incorporating them, whatever.
Guest:I mean, I was definitely crazy because, you know, when I attempted suicide, I continued using GHB, right?
Guest:Like, but, you know, so there were times, certainly like the suicide was, where I was absolutely hearing voices, which I regard purely as insanity.
Guest:But as for the other stuff and the stuff I couldn't explain, I mean it came down – look, I always called myself when I was younger an atheist who walked hand in hand with God because of the moral compass I had and the things I wouldn't do that I wasn't willing to do.
Guest:Because you can say you were paranoid that show business was an evil empire, but I think show business is fucking evil, about 95 percent of it.
Guest:So that's my opinion on that still today with a clear head.
Guest:But I eventually decided and this made me like a better candidate to get sober that, OK, I do not believe that there can be a secret new world order that could have perfected human cloning 50 years ago and found a way to plant them in random homes throughout the world, you know, and perfected like thought reading and telepathic communication as of.
Guest:14 years ago.
Guest:I don't believe that.
Guest:That feels very unlikely to me, but I decided that God and or the devil could do that, so I opted for God.
Guest:It actually made more sense to me, even something that doesn't make sense.
Guest:And I stopped doing GHB.
Guest:A lot of those problems got better, even as I was sober.
Guest:I stopped doing GHB actively after the suicide attempt.
Guest:And then being sober
Guest:That stuff has had way, way less or no presence in my life.
Marc:Well, what did you do and what was that day?
Marc:What was the decision about it?
Marc:The decision about what?
Marc:How did you do it?
Marc:How did you try to kill yourself?
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:That's very simple.
Guest:So I was still doing GHB, which, you know, is what everybody attributed my psychosis to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I...
Guest:Was laying there.
Guest:I mean, I would have days where I'd just lay there.
Guest:I mean, you know, it was really a nasty mess.
Guest:One time I got hiccups for like, you know, which you think of hiccups as being nothing, but I was just so fucked up.
Guest:I got hiccups for like 14 hours straight, and by that time you're just in such horrible pain, you know, and my gullet was already seared with this form of the GHB I would drink, and so I would make that burn every time.
Guest:I mean, it was just awful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so one day I'm laying there, I'm sleep deprived.
Guest:And now I'm seeing, you know, I'm not like seeing people that I think I look like people.
Guest:I'm seeing fucking visions out on my fucking fire escape fucking talking to me, you know.
Guest:And I am hearing, you know, I'm hearing voices.
Guest:I wouldn't say like, you know how appliances talk to people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't say appliances were talking to me, but the voices were definitely kind of jiving in with, like, I remember the space heater.
Guest:I had this little fucking space heater I ran, and it's, like, talking to me, like, you are going to be such a fucking loser.
Guest:You're going to be the biggest loser in the history of the whole wide fucking world, you know?
Guest:And I was like, well, that doesn't sound very good, you know?
Guest:Mr. Space Heater.
Guest:And I was seeing, like, serpents.
Guest:I would go in the bathroom to piss, and there'd be, like, some shadow of a snake on the fucking wall.
Guest:I mean, I was out there, baby.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so this is why people talk about it.
Guest:It's very funny.
Guest:Like, so you talk about depression, but we're talking about a different thing.
Guest:We're talking about I had a messiah complex, which has been downgraded to a persecution complex by the National Weather Service.
Guest:And 10 years of sobriety, pretty much.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I still have a lot of this.
Guest:You tell that I think I'm a guy with no luck.
Guest:But at this time, I thought I was like, you know, so I was like, wow, my life is really going to be horrible.
Guest:I should escape this.
Guest:Now, as soon as possible.
Guest:But bear in mind, I'm sleep deprived.
Guest:I probably still got a lot of alcohol in my system.
Guest:I probably got GHB in my system, but none there to do to just put myself back to sleep.
Guest:And I was like, I'd better take action now.
Guest:For once in my life, I was proactive.
Guest:And so I went and got in my kitchen drawer and thought there were really good candidates.
Guest:I had like a couple of Ginsu type things or whatever.
Guest:But all I could find was this bread knife, you know, this serrated bread knife.
Guest:And so I sat on the edge of my bed and started trying to saw my fucking head off for about – I mean I worked – I spent about 40 minutes on the project.
Guest:And it really bums me out because, you know, like when you said – what was the first thing where I accused you of euphemizing?
Guest:this was not a cry for help.
Guest:You can go ahead and say, I already call myself a loser.
Guest:What's a loser do when he tries to kill himself?
Guest:He fails, and that's what I did.
Guest:But it was not for lack of trying because you had to have a pretty thick skin to fucking sit there and try and cut your neck for however, I mean, I spent a long time doing this.
Guest:I even switched sides.
Guest:You can still see the scar over here, but I switched sides at one point thinking that
Guest:Maybe my knowledge of anatomy was wrong and there wasn't something major on this side because I did a number.
Guest:You know, I mean, there's blood all over the apartment, you know, whatever.
Guest:And then finally, and it wasn't from a desire to live.
Guest:It was from that eventually.
Guest:I mean, this is just a difficult way to do this as near as I can tell.
Guest:Now, you can say lucky or unlucky.
Guest:This remains to be seen from what course my life takes.
Guest:There were knives that would definitely do the trick.
Guest:But I was so fucked up that I had put my dish tub on.
Guest:on top of the fridge and I couldn't find it.
Guest:And that's where the Ginsu's were that were just sharp as tacks.
Guest:If I use the same amount of like force and energy, you know, I catch my carotid or jugular and I do what I need to do.
Guest:you know and hose the place down with my blood which i basically did anyway um so at some point i gave up because it was proving too difficult i mean how many people kill like nobody kills themselves this way i think if you remember charles rocket i think maybe he did and uh you know charles rocket the actor the actor comedian who was an snl guy i i read that somewhere if it's not true i really apologize you know he was on x files you didn't hit the uh the the artery i guess
Guest:No, if you hit the artery there by yourself, you're a done deal.
Guest:Haven't you ever seen like footage?
Guest:Did you ever see like Malarchuk, the goalie when it got cut by a skate?
Guest:That's why it's like I'm like, wait, I was still thinking of that.
Guest:Like, God, that happened so easy.
Guest:Like a little quick skate in the throat and boom, this guy is just like, you know, it looked like the water cannons at Selma, Alabama, you know, but it was blood.
Guest:And so I gave up and I called my friend to bring over GHB.
Guest:I thought I would try and drink as much of that as I possibly could, although I knew it was a very ineffective way to kill yourself, even though they tried to like get you that it was, you know.
Guest:It was supposedly a date rape drug, and they say you can go into a coma, but I don't think it really kills you very effectively.
Guest:You take a bunch, then you sleep four days, and if you take more, you'll sleep six days.
Guest:It messes up your dopamine levels, and it may still have impacted my brain with the depression today.
Guest:But, you know, so I called him.
Guest:This is, again, like I told you, I have about four friends.
Guest:I would say this is my third best friend.
Guest:And he brought over.
Guest:I told him I really need some gamma.
Guest:And he was also an enthusiast at the time.
Guest:And he brought me some over.
Guest:But then upon opening the door, he made a judgment call.
Guest:That maybe instead of giving me drugs, he would call the folks at Cornell Presbyterian, see if they might like hook me up, you know.
Guest:And so they took me out on the gurney and they did, you know, they, you know, I mean, they did surgery on my neck.
Guest:I think I should have probably done more like get rid of the scar, you know.
Guest:But as it is now, it still doesn't look so much bad today.
Guest:I mean, you can tell it's there, but it's faded a lot.
Guest:And the funniest part about that shit is, I told you I was in three times, twice before that.
Guest:That was the fastest I was fucking out.
Guest:I mean, my friends, Janine, came to visit me the next day.
Guest:I was fucking joking around.
Guest:Like, who the hell is like, you know, but they couldn't get it through the heart that it was like psychoses and messiahdom and whatever.
Guest:It wasn't depression.
Guest:You know, I love life when it wasn't sucking.
Guest:I just figured it was sucking all the time.
Marc:Well, right, so what is the symptoms of a messiah complex exactly that would cause that action?
Guest:The symptoms of a messiah complex.
Marc:Right, what defines it?
Guest:Well, I told you the symptoms.
Guest:I thought I described it pretty well when the voices are saying, you're going to be the biggest loser in the history of the world.
Marc:So messiah just means that you're being chosen by extra... I don't know what that means, you know...
Guest:Obviously, I don't think that I am anymore, and I don't even know that I really thought so then, but I maybe thought it was possible or whatever.
Guest:It's hard to describe.
Guest:I was nuts, but people...
Guest:The opportunity to say, oh, he thinks he's the Messiah, he's crazy.
Guest:Well, I say there are other options.
Guest:A guy can think he's the Messiah, and he's just fucking wrong.
Guest:He's sane, but he's wrong.
Guest:Michael Bolton thinks he's a great musician.
Guest:He's totally convinced of it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You're not going to tell him otherwise.
Guest:So I could be wrong that a Messiah even exists.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But think that I'm him, and I'm still sane, and I'm just wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, there's all other crazy possibility trees.
Guest:My favorite one that would ever happen if there's such a thing as a messiah is have a guy who thinks he's a messiah because he's totally fucking nuts.
Guest:I mean, as in bananas, as in walking down the street, you know, talking to the Bluetooth that he doesn't have.
Guest:And he is the messiah, but he just thinks it for all the wrong reasons.
Guest:Someday I'm going to do a short film about that one.
Guest:I think that's an awesome one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I had the shortest visit after cutting my throat.
Guest:The doctor in charge, he was just this slick dude with a gold Rolex, and he needed to get out for Labor Day.
Guest:He didn't want to be bogged down with it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Just let this guy go.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You all good now?
Guest:Y'all good now?
Guest:Are you going to try and hurt yourself?
Guest:That's what I was trying to hurt myself.
Guest:I wasn't like, you know, if I had it to do over, no, it wouldn't work.
Guest:There's no way I'm scarring myself because it's not it's not the really cool Harrison Ford type of scar.
Guest:It's like, what the fuck did that guy do scar?
Guest:And but I met a chick while I was in the psych warden.
Guest:Probably I would say, you know, at the top of the list.
Guest:I ended up dating her after she was a doctor, and not when she was having her own issues.
Guest:She wasn't a doctor on the floor.
Marc:She wasn't working at the hospital?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She didn't help stitch you up and say, this is my guy.
Marc:No.
No.
Guest:Yeah, you know, wouldn't that be a great love story?
Guest:But I met her and I think that even though she wasn't particularly hot looking, I might have been more attracted to her than any girl ever because she was, you know, I mean, you know how dudes like crazy and, you know, she's in there, balls out.
Guest:I'm fucking crazy, you know, and so that was a doctor.
Guest:She was a doctor, yeah.
Marc:And how long did that last?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I dated her three or four months, but she had this weird thing where I think the last month I saw her, I saw her one time in 30 days, which you would think of if she lived in Mobile, Alabama, but she lived at 90th and Park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like 20 blocks away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I liked her so much.
Guest:I was trying to roll with the picture.
Guest:I didn't care.
Guest:I mean, I'm sure, you know, it was other dudes involved or whatever, but I didn't give a damn.
Guest:But she just ultimately proved to be crazy and not accountable and whatever.
Guest:And, you know, but it was good because, boom, that hits.
Guest:The book, which, you know, I loathed, hits.
Guest:It all hits at the same time.
Guest:And then 9-11, all this shit hits.
Guest:And I needed the perfect witch's brew.
Guest:The book, this gravel book?
Guest:the word freak yeah um i need the perfect witch's brew to to be able to consider not drinking i saw myself i mean week before i quit i said to uh you know bartender at the main place which i got 86 from like two days later for good and i i it's like i can't see my life without alcohol it's just impossible
Guest:And, you know, he served drinks for a living, and he said, well, I can't believe somebody as smart as you thinks something like that.
Guest:But, you know, I was surprised that he would say anything other than have another, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But that's what he said, and, you know, it proved to be right.
Guest:And then, you know, living with the scar especially was more visible, you know, like –
Guest:I've had, I don't know if I told you about the book.
Guest:I mean, there were issues with the book.
Guest:I haven't fully read it, so some of it is contempt prior to investigation.
Guest:But I just have, years later, definitely I had issues where I was trying to date women, you know, with set up, and then they Google me and cancel.
Guest:You know, and I had four or five women say, I Google you.
Guest:I don't think I want anything to do with you.
Guest:And, you know, for every five, you know, it's like a cockroach thing.
Guest:There's going to be more.
Guest:Yeah, the ones who just fade and you don't hear from.
Guest:And so I met him.
Guest:We hadn't spoken for years, and he knew I didn't like him at all.
Guest:The guy who wrote the book?
Guest:The guy who wrote the book.
Guest:But he asked to interview me because he wanted to do an afterward for the 10th anniversary edition.
Guest:And so I agreed to meet him because I tend to actually let water under the bridge despite what it seems like.
Guest:Despite any indication of him.
Guest:to sign any indication i might remember every single detail and hold a grudge forever and ever and be able to like enumerate every circumstance um no but it cracked me up because like you know he asked me some stuff well how'd the book you know what the book impact the book had in life well i think the book may have cost me 50 or 60 first dates and the classic journalist you know his response was what can i write that
Guest:You know, I mean, it just pretty much sucked because, you know, for that period or whatever, you know, I mean, I'm pretty offbeat, but, you know, I think you can be eccentric and whatever.
Guest:And I think, you know, insane people, insane and eccentric people bless our world in a way.
Guest:I mean, you know, like, I'm grateful for that experience now, you know, in a lot of ways.
Guest:You know, it was just tough for the first time.
Guest:I remember being in a bar in Indiana where I went back to regroup, and that's the last time I've been in Indiana.
Guest:It was between whatever the suicide attempt and getting sober.
Guest:And I'm standing in a bar, and there's this guy, and he was kind of like, you know, he was this tobacco-chewing, you know, like trivia expert.
Guest:But, I mean, he was kind of the village drunk, you know.
Guest:He was around.
Guest:He was really known as...
Guest:And he says hello to me like he barely knew me when I was like, oh, hey, what's going on?
Guest:He's like, how are you doing?
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:You look.
Guest:And I was like, no, I'm good.
Guest:He's like, you're not thinking of killing yourself again, are you?
Yeah.
Guest:You know, and I had to hear about people gossiping like that don't even know me, like, you know, you know, like somebody is like, oh, and Rich Franchese.
Guest:And he said, whatever happened with Matt, you know, what's going on with Matt?
Guest:You know, this is around the time, whatever.
Guest:Like, I've never met him.
Guest:You know, I've never spoken to him.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:He got my job when Colin fired me.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So he's already kind of maybe benefited off my misfortune.
Guest:And now he's fucking gossiping about me.
Guest:And he's never even met me.
Guest:You know, that kind of bums me out.
Guest:But what are you going to do?
Guest:I mean, people talk.
Guest:I mean, I try not to talk in that way about people.
Guest:Like, you'll hear me say this and that or the other thing.
Guest:But you notice, like...
Guest:When I was talking shit about people talking about the girl, I didn't come close.
Guest:You know, I could say a lot more stuff.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'm not – and, you know, I don't talk about who people are sleeping with or, you know, what drugs they're doing or any shit like that.
Guest:I'm a character assassin, not a gossip, and I think there's a profound difference.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, because gossip ain't going to accomplish anything.
Guest:A good character assassin, if he doesn't change that person, he'll get people thinking about, you know, different ways to be or different ways to looking, you know.
Guest:Or I do it frequently to people's faces.
Guest:I mean, this is one reason you're talking about such a big show business success.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like if I thought somebody stole a joke, I saw somebody steal a joke.
Guest:I don't, you know, most people, this happened more than once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it happened once where I unfortunately was kind of a dick.
Guest:I mean, I thought it was fair to...
Guest:for me to bring it up but i was pretty drunk and the guy kind of annoyed me anyway but the guy's a creative guy or whatever but you know on the other hand it's to my credit you know because most people would just say you know uh like people would say this guy stole and i don't know that he did um but i just went up to you and said you did that joke and you work with my friend you know whatever i don't remember you doing that joke and you were working with her and she did that joke
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Most people won't do that because they don't like the conflict.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So at least you've got to give me credit for putting my money where my mouth is.
Guest:You know, I will assassinate your character to your face.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like I was going to kid you.
Guest:What did I say?
Guest:Don't euphemize.
Guest:But like, so I said you should have brought it up, whatever.
Guest:Like.
Guest:I wanted to kid you that, you know, even though I'm an absolute nobody, like the tiniest niche cult celebrity, I get a second interview because we all know it's very sensational to hear somebody talk about trying to cut their head off, you know, and, you know, you'll get emails about that and it'll fuel the site and people listen to the next.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You know, and I fully acknowledge that.
Guest:you know, I'm willing to talk about this because I want to do a show and get back in the business and talk about this.
Guest:We'll put people in the seat.
Guest:So you're a sensationalist and I'm a whore and, you know, it's probably a tie.
Guest:You know, at least I tell you like, hey, you know, I know you're using me, you know, and I'm using you too.
Guest:I'm just probably getting less out of it because, you know, I'm a loser.
Marc:No, I mean, let's not, let's like not, you know, I was completely content with the original hour, you know, and excited about it.
Guest:i love talking to you and i thought it was but you didn't want to get to that in the first interview yeah but i just was caught off yeah yeah oh no okay then i enjoy bringing up the dark side but yes i will say that on the other hand while i thought you'd known me so long you could just ask it was still nice that you cared whether i wanted to talk about it where i wanted to be talking a long time and you know you never know where it's going to go with you it's all good you know you want to take any shrapnel people are just full of shit
Guest:You know, and I'm not, and that's why, you know, but I know that, you know, I'm just going to keep plugging away and I'll find either some creative outlet or, you know, I'll sell some games or, you know, I'll train manatees or, you know, something's going to shake out.
Guest:But first, the show.
Guest:And I brought a game I want to sell you.
Guest:I'm trying to sell off my games.
Guest:Can I sell you one game in exchange for all that I told you?
Guest:One board game?
Guest:Which one is it?
Guest:It's called Vegas.
Guest:It's a great Hasbro bookshelf game.
Guest:How much is it going to cost?
Guest:Make me an offer.
Marc:I don't know what game to sell for.
Guest:Well, you know what you can afford?
Marc:Like, you know, just make me some... How about I just lend you some money?
Marc:Or give you some money?
Marc:And now take the game.
Marc:I don't know if I want to haggle.
Marc:I'm not good at it.
Marc:Because, I mean, where do you start?
Guest:Yeah, you can just give me money.
Guest:I wasn't trying to take you for a whole bunch of money.
Guest:I was trying to, like, use the fact that I was so incredibly open and told you a story that, like...
Guest:You know, I there's not many people now.
Guest:There's going to be a lot of people.
Guest:But up to there, there's about three people who really know the whole story.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And you're four and then your podcast is two hundred thousand and four.
Guest:You say what do you want?
Guest:Fifty dollars for the game?
Guest:Yeah, fuck yeah.
Guest:But the reason I want you to loan me money is I try and pay people back.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And you did pay me back.
Marc:You have paid me.
Guest:You loaned me money once, I paid you back.
Guest:I'm not looking at getting further debt.
Guest:I mean, if I take, yeah, you can definitely have it for that price.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:If it's, I don't want to put any financial strain on you, that's not what I was looking to do.
Guest:No, there's no financial strain.
Marc:I just, you know, I think it's better than lending money.
Marc:And if you can use the $50 and not worry about.
Marc:Oh, fuck yeah, I can use it.
Guest:I just spent nine on McDonald's.
Guest:I mean, you have to understand, I really live by the, you know, I live by the.
Guest:nitty gritty so so but i would like you to take the game because it's not big and it's those real cool old bookshelf style games and you know if nothing else it'll need a little bit of kitsch for your place and you'll look at and you'll think of me or something you know kooky i said yeah absolutely okay cool it's a deal so we're good you good i'm good thanks matt
Marc:Well, that's it.
Marc:That was an interview with a very old friend and very interesting guy.
Marc:And I hope you dug it as much as I did because he's one of the most intense dudes that I know.
Marc:That was my conversation with Matt Graham.
Marc:As always, thank you for listening.
Marc:Please go to WTFPod.com for any WTFPod needs.
Marc:You can get on the mailing list.
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Marc:You can get Just Coffee from justcoffee.coop.
Marc:You can see our new YouTube stuff we're putting up.
Marc:I'm putting up a lot of old videos.
Marc:Boy, I'm a little tired.
Marc:I got stand-up to do.
Marc:I'm going to play guitar soon, tonight.
Marc:Thanks for listening.
Marc:Thanks for coming out to the live one, San Francisco.
Marc:I'll talk to you later.