Episode 240 - Annabelle Gurwitch and Jeff Kahn
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck in ears?
Marc:What the fuck a recans?
Marc:What the fuck a Mullins?
Marc:What the fuck an ox?
Marc:Anyways, how's everybody doing?
Marc:This is Mark Marin.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:I hope you're doing well.
Marc:I hope you're enjoying your vacation.
Marc:I hope you're having a vacation.
Marc:I am.
Marc:I am on vacation.
Marc:I'm doing this from my mind.
Marc:I actually, well, I'll go ahead and tell you, I prerecorded these so I could have a little time off to lay around and write and get some peace of mind.
Marc:In my mind right now,
Marc:I'm going to go on my vacation that I'm already on now as we're speaking and really cut down on my tweeting, cut down on my festering because I've been incredibly anxious.
Marc:And I know a lot of it has to do with the fact that I'm going to be spending time with family, with my mother specifically.
Marc:And it's just amazing how deep that wiring is where you just start to spin out a little bit, get ready to justify yourself, get ready to maybe feel a little bit insecure, intimidated, erased, all those things that happen in a good, healthy family.
Marc:But hopefully that's not going on as we speak.
Marc:Let me get to a plug here before I forget because it's important because this is how we generate a little income for this show.
Marc:We could do it another way.
Marc:But look, we choose our sponsors.
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Marc:But that's on you.
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Marc:There's that.
Marc:And you can go to WTF Premium on iTunes and pick up some of those...
Marc:Special episodes and hopefully soon the DVD with the first 100 on MP3 with some special video content of a live WTF that has been unseen will be available soon.
Marc:Those are the options.
Marc:Back to what's going on here today.
Marc:I know you're on vacation.
Marc:Some of you are with your family.
Marc:Some of you are spending time with your significant others, your partners, your spouses, your husbands, wives, maybe alone.
Marc:Maybe it's one of those things.
Marc:Maybe you work hard.
Marc:all year and this is your time alone with that special person how's that turning out for you how's that going uh are you enjoying that time of constant companionship or is it sort of revealing all the weird petty emotional uh competitions that are going on just under the surface at all times but now just amplified because you've got that time to really sit in them
Marc:What's happening with that?
Marc:I've been thinking about marriage again, and my guests today, Jeff Kahn and Annabelle Gurwitch, have written a book called You Say Tomato, I Say Shut Up.
Marc:They perform together.
Marc:They've both had their own careers in show business.
Marc:He's a writer.
Marc:She used to be on Dinner and a Movie.
Marc:She's done some movies.
Marc:She's written some stuff.
Marc:I mean, they've worked in show business a long time, and somehow or another, they have sustained a marriage, and I believe...
Marc:This marks the first time that we have a married couple on the show and me having my own attitudes about marriage.
Marc:I don't even have attitudes about marriage.
Marc:I have two failed marriages.
Marc:The one was my fault, the first one, and the second one was also my fault on some level, but it takes two to tango.
Marc:The second one was a disaster.
Marc:We know that.
Marc:Now I'm in a relationship now that's going very well.
Marc:We're comfortable with each other, probably too comfortable if that's possible.
Marc:I start to think about marriage.
Marc:There is a big age difference.
Marc:I start to think about children.
Marc:I start to think about what one really expects out of a relationship.
Marc:A lot of compromise involved, a lot of putting up with a lot of bullshit, a lot of I don't have control of everything involved.
Marc:And then I started to think back on my relationships and I started to realize, oh, my God, so many of my relationships were just turned out to be a phase the other person was going through.
Marc:I'm a stepping stone into something healthy.
Marc:I'm a grand emotional experiment to see if they can wrangle the neurotic angry Jew.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Wow!
Marc:I just shit my pants.
Marc:I needed that.
Marc:I needed the JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:I got strung out on some German coffee.
Marc:I don't know what the hell it's called.
Marc:I don't know if I can pronounce it.
Marc:Someone turned me on to it and sent me a bag of this stuff.
Marc:And I drank it.
Marc:And I think it was designed by the Nazis to kind of create the will necessary to not have a conscience.
Marc:I drank conscience eradicating coffee from Germany.
Marc:I wish I knew what it was called.
Marc:I'll check it out.
Marc:Yeah, so relationships, very scary.
Marc:And if you're in it, you've surrendered and hopefully that fear has dissipated and just turned into a mild aggravation.
Marc:But man, I'm nervous.
Marc:I'm 48 years old.
Marc:How much time do I have left?
Marc:Seriously, why can't I just let happiness exist and deal with the aggravation without having those petty minor aggravating moments?
Marc:Those moments where you feel like you have to make a stand for yourself, for your individuality, whatever that means in the context of a relationship.
Marc:I'm going to make a stand.
Marc:Oh, no, she's crying.
Marc:Now she's yelling.
Marc:Oh, boy, I should keep my mouth shut.
Marc:This is censorship.
Marc:Censorship.
Marc:I don't want to live in this dictatorship anymore.
Marc:Dude, it's just a relationship.
Marc:Yeah, all right.
Marc:All right, I guess I'll have some ice cream or something.
Marc:Speaking of ice cream, I went off my diet.
Marc:Obviously, I'm off it now.
Marc:It's the holidays, right?
Marc:I can do that.
Marc:But after my Conan appearance, I decided, hell, I deserve a reward.
Marc:I ate a pint and a half of ice cream.
Marc:I think I almost died because I haven't been eating any sugar.
Marc:I literally couldn't lift my head up.
Marc:I needed help off the couch.
Marc:I went into a partial ice cream coma.
Marc:I hope I didn't do any brain damage.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I hope I'm all right.
Marc:I seem to be talking all right, right?
Marc:I don't have any ice cream related brain damage.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Enjoy your holidays.
Marc:Let's talk to Jeff Kahn and Annabelle Gurwitch.
Marc:And well, you know, I'm sure they've got it all worked out.
Marc:They're a happy married couple, right?
Marc:You decide.
Marc:Annabelle, are you okay in your head?
Guest:Am I okay in my head?
Guest:That's like a much, much... No, I mean with the... Yeah, I know, with the headphones?
Guest:Yeah, I'm fine.
Guest:It's a little loud.
Guest:Okay, there we go.
Guest:Wait, you're loud?
Guest:No, I'm good.
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:She's loud, but that's just... I don't know.
Marc:But isn't that a natural thing?
Marc:I mean, wouldn't that be happening whether or not she was mic'd or not?
Marc:I mean, I'm just trying to understand the dynamic here.
Marc:That would be.
Marc:My guests are Jeff Kahn and Annabelle Gurwitch.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:There is witch actually in my name.
Guest:Gerwitch.
Guest:Annabelle, the best name.
Guest:Gerwitch, the worst name.
Marc:Thank you, Jeff.
Marc:The worst name ever.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Well, this book, I mean, I don't want to get right into the book.
Marc:First of all, everyone sounds good in their heads.
Guest:I told you that's a much larger question.
Guest:She sounds so loud in my head right now, but that's okay.
Marc:Let me just establish for the people that are listening is that these two are married and that's going well?
Guest:It depends when this is going to air because will we still be married then?
Marc:If you've made it this far.
Marc:I don't predict, Mark.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You've already been married once.
Guest:Yeah, this is the second.
Marc:And what happened in the first one?
Marc:Was that a youthful indiscretion or how long were you married?
Guest:Things that happened in your 20s don't count past your 20s, in my opinion.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:She married an accent.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I met him.
Guest:I met him.
Guest:He did have a good accent.
Guest:I married an idea.
Guest:I married an idea.
Guest:He was a painter.
Guest:I thought it was going to be cool.
Guest:I thought, you know, and he's British.
Guest:And it was like, you know, he was the furthest thing I could get from being Jewish.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Except his name.
Guest:His last name, Mark, was Jewett.
Marc:And he wasn't a Jew.
Guest:No, he was a Brit.
Guest:Church of England.
Marc:My first wife, Jewish.
Marc:My second wife, not a Jew, named Mishnah.
Marc:i know now how that i mean that's a book of the torah right juet juet okay actually last name with the word jew in it right you both looked at me like when i said mission you both looked at me with that sort of like oh is he gonna is he gonna go there now but there was also the look of like that perhaps you're you're still in touch with her is that yes yes we are friends yes we are not me i don't
Guest:Which, you know, I don't have a problem with, you know, having, being, you know, liking two people who were once married who are not now.
Guest:Because it's sort of like people who survived a war, like civil war, brother against brother.
Guest:I mean, who can say which was which?
Marc:Well, I don't know that we're friends, are we, Annabelle?
Marc:I mean, certainly not now.
Marc:I mean, I...
Guest:Not now, and probably now we never will be.
Guest:We are in the same room, though.
Marc:That's right, and we're going to have to get through this with me knowing.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Now when you look at me, you're just going to see something.
Marc:You're on her team.
Guest:I did not take teams.
Guest:I don't have teams on this one.
Marc:I understand she needs help child rearing, and that's part of something you do.
Guest:There's a girl thing.
Guest:There is a girl thing.
Marc:You're both writers and...
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Well, I'm not going to make this about me and your problems.
Guest:This is about you and Jeff's problems.
Guest:I want to go back to my first marriage, okay, which was an idea.
Guest:You married an artist.
Guest:I married an idea.
Guest:I loved his paintings.
Guest:He was okay.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:In my 20s, like 27 or something.
Guest:Mid-20s.
Guest:You know, just sort of, and it ended up fading away.
Guest:When I met her.
Guest:Yeah, I was married.
Guest:You met her, she was married?
Guest:Yes, and I tried to get her to leave her husband.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how'd that go?
Guest:It went well.
Guest:It took five years.
Guest:Completely failed at it.
Guest:Five years.
Guest:She rejected me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you tried to get you knew she was married.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in your mind, what she represented like this is the right thing.
Marc:She's Jewish.
Marc:She's confused.
Marc:She's married to a painter.
Marc:She's made a bad decision.
Marc:I need to bring her back into the tribe and make my life better.
Guest:I didn't think about the tribe.
Guest:I only thought I think if you put me in a room with 50 women, right, 50 beautiful women, I will pick the one who is the most screwed up.
Guest:Thank you, Jeff.
Guest:No, what about you?
Guest:Aren't you the most screwed up?
Guest:Because you had to pick me, who was completely unavailable.
Guest:See, I think Jeff married an idea with me.
Guest:He married a cause.
Guest:I'm going to get her, even though she's married to someone else.
Guest:Yeah, but I gave up on you.
Guest:He was like on this Don Quixote type.
Marc:Yeah, you gave up on her.
Guest:After five years, you gave up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You waged a campaign.
Guest:Maybe four years.
Guest:He wrote me poetry.
Guest:Okay, here's one of the... I don't know if he actually stretches the bounds of poetry.
Guest:Let me hear one of the early Jeff Kahn poems.
Guest:I came to you a knight in shining armor.
Guest:I offered you my heart.
Guest:You gave me a stick of gum.
Guest:And he wonders why it took five years.
Guest:Well, now I can't ever look Mark in the face now.
Marc:Well, that was cute.
Marc:No, I've written poems before.
Guest:Yeah, but not that bad.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like that?
Marc:No, you were into that poem.
Marc:You decided to write a poem, but you couldn't get out of it without doing a joke.
Marc:See, so the fact that there was a joke at the end with the gum and it was cute, but probably at that time you thought it was a legitimate poem, that it had power as a poem.
Guest:I thought it would have residence.
Marc:Sure, it represented your humor, and you were proud of that.
Marc:That's not a poem to be ashamed of.
Guest:All right.
Marc:I think you can be proud of that poem.
Guest:There were other ones.
Guest:Annabelle, Annabelle, Annabelle, your hair is all the colors of autumn leaves.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You did that one, too?
Guest:It was that one, too, yeah.
Guest:how old were you were you a writer at the Ben Stiller show yet I was writing with Ben we had done the MTV show and we were transitioning into the Fox show so I was flying back and forth and I met her out here you didn't say Ben check out this poem I'm sending this girl who's married Annabelle Annabelle Annabelle your hair is like autumn leaves yeah
Guest:No, we all met.
Guest:I met because, you know, I had your shirt off at his house.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:You had your shirt off where?
Guest:At his house.
Guest:No, and then we remember we shot something at the hotel you and Ben were staying at.
Guest:We shot, because, like, you guys were developing the Ben Stiller show.
Guest:Yeah, we shot an improv together.
Guest:And I was doing not necessarily the news at the time.
Guest:I was the anchor of that show on HBO.
Marc:Wow, we're old.
Guest:We are veterans.
Marc:We are show business veterans.
Marc:Do you realize that?
Marc:I'm so old.
Marc:It's unbelievable.
Marc:When did that happen that we're showbiz?
Marc:Do you guys realize you're getting older?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:You know, the funny thing about not necessarily the news was, I mean, first of all, you know, you think, I think back on that show now, so it was like 1989, and I remember, you know, in the auditions, you know, I'm thinking like,
Guest:Yeah, I won.
Guest:I'm so great.
Guest:I got this job.
Guest:Years later, I'm doing this little movie, Shaggy Dog.
Guest:And Tim Allen says to me, do you remember where we met?
Guest:I said, no, I don't remember, Tim.
Guest:He said, oh, yeah, we auditioned together for not necessarily the news and you got it and I didn't.
Guest:I was like, yeah, I really won.
Guest:Didn't I?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You kicked Tim Allen's ass.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because he's hurting now.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I'm always worrying about Tim Allen.
Guest:I worry about Tim Allen.
Guest:Did he save money?
Marc:Does he have enough to get by?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I auditioned for a commercial with Jon Stewart and I got, and he didn't.
Guest:So there you go.
Marc:You're both winners then.
Marc:And look, we are here in my garage, you know, desperately trying to communicate to put our projects out into the world.
Marc:Yeah, John Stewart said to me on a phone recently, he said, look, you know, I've always thought that, you know, you're very creative.
Marc:So I...
Marc:This is telling me that he wasn't going to be on my show.
Marc:Very creative, John thinks I'm very creative.
Marc:All right, so you somehow decided to work together.
Guest:Terrible mistake, by the way.
Guest:Terrible mistake.
Guest:What's the book called?
Marc:You say tomato, I say shut up.
Marc:Am I right?
Guest:Yes, although both of us are really more tomato type people.
Guest:We're not really tomato people.
Guest:That was my first marriage.
Guest:He was a tomato person.
Guest:Yes, he was.
Guest:Yes, he was.
Guest:Tomato, yes.
Marc:Now, did this guy make money?
Marc:Now, can you buy his paintings?
Marc:Have you been in touch secretly on Facebook?
Marc:Tell him.
Marc:Tell him, Jeff, now.
Guest:We are in touch, actually.
Marc:Did you know that, Jeff?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:We are in touch.
Guest:She can go back to him.
Guest:Go.
Guest:Are you done?
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Jeff, you know, it's okay.
Marc:You can go on.
Guest:Being a painter is a very long thing.
Guest:Usually you do.
Marc:It might not work.
Guest:It might not work out.
Guest:Usually you don't get recognized until after you're dead.
Guest:So, you know, I mean, he's doing the traditional route.
Marc:Now the traditional route, right?
Marc:He's waiting for posthumous fame.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:Aren't we all?
Guest:It's very old school.
Guest:It's very old school.
Guest:Now, see, the thing is about us, okay, it would seem like a good idea.
Guest:To get married or write a book?
Guest:All of it.
Guest:The whole thing seemed like a good idea.
Guest:It did.
Guest:It seemed like a good idea.
Guest:And actually, when I called, I called our friend Ann Mirror.
Guest:And when I said, hey, guess what?
Guest:Jeff and I, you know, I thought, you know, we'll do like you and Jerry.
Guest:We'll work together.
Guest:She's like, Annabelle, what are you doing?
Guest:God, terrible idea.
Guest:Don't do that.
Guest:What are you thinking?
Guest:And actually, I talked to her the other day.
Guest:She's like, you see, I told you.
Guest:I was like, Ann, you were so right.
Guest:So horrible.
Marc:But I tried performing with both of my ex-wives because they were both in the business somehow or another.
Marc:And you have to have a sort of genuine dynamic.
Marc:And you two seem to barely tolerate each other, which is really the classic.
Guest:It works on stage.
Guest:And it does.
Guest:We have a great time working together.
Guest:It's everything else that's really hard.
Marc:Well, let's talk about practical marriage things because I'm no good at it.
Guest:Oh, we are not either.
Guest:That's the whole thing is people read our book and they're like, oh, it's so great.
Guest:You guys are such a great couple.
Guest:Well, did they read the book?
Guest:No, but this is all very cute.
Marc:You're managing.
Marc:I feel real love here.
Marc:I feel a lot of tolerance.
Marc:I feel that, am I misreading this?
Marc:Probably.
Marc:I think you are.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:People read our book and I think, what are they?
Guest:Are they read the same book?
Guest:It just shows you how low, how negative you've gone.
Guest:You look perfect to me.
Marc:You're working it out.
Guest:Well, the thing is, we say in the book, I said it in the opening.
Guest:I said, you know, we're not marriage boosters.
Guest:We're not for marriage.
Guest:We're not against marriage.
Guest:We're just doing it.
Guest:But do you ever want to do something an actor is doing?
Guest:That's what you should run from.
Marc:Let's talk about that first.
Marc:So you guys were both entertainers when you met.
Marc:And obviously Annabelle is more successful and was from the beginning.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:No, Jeff was... I'm working with Ben Stiller.
Guest:Everybody I've ever worked with.
Guest:Jeff is a good luck charm.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, no, Jeff was much more successful than me.
Marc:You lived with Ben Stewart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was my roommate.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And then Jeff's next partner, Aline Brosh, now she wrote these movies that are... She's the queen of the rom-com.
Guest:Rom-com.
Guest:What did she write?
Guest:She wrote 27 Dresses.
Guest:She wrote Devil Wears Prada.
Marc:I enjoyed that movie and I'm not gay.
Guest:The Devil Wears Proud.
Guest:Well, I think there's a performance in there that's just transcendent.
Marc:Meryl Streep is really amazing.
Marc:And Tucci's great.
Marc:And they're all great.
Marc:And I love Anne Hathaway.
Guest:I was in that movie.
Guest:You can see me in the deleted scenes.
Guest:Isn't that funny?
Guest:Now you can say this in your career.
Guest:I'm in the deleted scenes.
Marc:I still get the royalty checks from the Mighty Ducks, too.
Guest:I get royalty checks from Devil Wears Proud.
Guest:And no one knows you're in it.
Marc:Yeah, it's like they're so small, you can't buy anything with them.
Marc:An individual check.
Marc:$2.27.
Marc:Some of the movies now.
Guest:$24.
Guest:I get like .03 cents from things.
Guest:From Devil Wears Prada?
Guest:No, no, from some other things I've done.
Marc:You must still get a few bucks from Devil Wears Prada even though you were cut out.
Guest:I do.
Marc:They must be like, you know, because with the cable and then the... I've done... I don't understand the checks.
Guest:What did I get a check from today?
Guest:I get checks still from my career as an actress, which is...
Marc:Well, some people love you from a dinner and a movie.
Guest:I don't get checks from that.
Marc:She gets a lot of recognition.
Guest:That was non-union.
Guest:But I do.
Guest:That was a show I did for six years.
Guest:But I got that after we were married.
Guest:Jeff was working more.
Guest:No, you got that before.
Guest:Right before we were married.
Marc:Now, let's go back a little bit and talk.
Marc:Because I've talked to Jeff about this before briefly.
Marc:And really, the conversation never ends well.
Marc:So you were part of Ben Stiller's life.
Marc:You were best friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were roommates?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You did stand-up together where?
Marc:Here?
Marc:In New York.
Marc:In New York?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When he was living in the village?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:We were living on the Upper West Side.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:There's these pictures of them from the cards.
Guest:We did a show on MTV.
Guest:They used to send out for their improv act, their comedy act together.
Guest:Both of you had a lot more hair.
Guest:Yeah, we did.
Marc:So you did the show and now he's a huge movie star.
Marc:Huge, huge.
Marc:The biggest movie star.
Marc:Yeah, you could probably be at his house.
Marc:In the known universe.
Marc:Well, the biggest star in the known universe sent me a cryptic email saying, hey, do you mind if I call you?
Marc:I have a question.
Marc:And I wrote back, sure, Ben, here's my phone number.
Marc:So now I'm in that waiting zone.
Marc:Now I'm in waiting for the call.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:What could he possibly want?
Marc:What does the king desire?
Guest:What does he desire from his justice?
Guest:You know, I got a call once from Martin Scorsese.
Guest:You did?
Guest:And I cleaned my entire apartment to get ready for the call.
Guest:For a phone call?
Guest:For some reason, I mean, I can't explain it.
Guest:It was just so exciting.
Guest:I got dressed up, and I cleaned the apartment.
Guest:And that was exciting.
Marc:And what was the call about?
Guest:Okay, the truth is, I had auditioned for a movie of his, and then he had invited me to his office at night to talk about it more.
Guest:And then he called me, and he sent me a present.
Guest:And I, at the time, I was in my early 20s, I thought he was interested in my talent.
Guest:I now think...
Guest:There may have been another interest there that I was too stupid to recognize.
Guest:I've heard all the stories.
Guest:And I he was very polite, though.
Guest:I think I missed my shot there.
Guest:To what?
Guest:Yes, yes, I do.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:uh have you ever done that have you ever uh had sex for uh no and i was really stupid i had opportunities i didn't recognize it till later i thought people liked my challenge sex for food for food or fame for an opportunity no no everyone i i dated was like casting directors you did he did he did that always he went for the casting couch
Guest:They always call you up and they say, you know what, just as a friend, I just want to get together.
Guest:What can you say?
Guest:No, because I don't ever want to work.
Guest:Yeah, so I did.
Marc:But it's the same thing.
Marc:You can't shit where you eat.
Marc:I dated a publicist once.
Marc:It was the worst thing I ever did in my life.
Marc:Dave Rath, the manager, came up to me after I broke up with her and he said, I got the press release.
Marc:Apparently, you're an asshole.
Guest:No, I was always... It's never going to work.
Guest:No, everyone I dated was like, it was like before their careers did really well.
Guest:Yeah, like Scorsese.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:If they were sort of an interest there, I didn't notice.
Guest:I thought they liked my talent.
Guest:And now I realize I really wasn't that talented.
Guest:But I was in my 20s and...
Marc:yeah and you had hair the color yeah you're definitely oh that's why let's get back to this uh the other so you you and ben are okay yeah okay well that's good now let's deal with some of the practical elements of of marriage you're both working uh you uh have bitterness uh she no bitterness no bitterness about who about anything
Guest:Oh, God, you hate me.
Marc:I don't hate you.
Guest:You told me that the other day.
Marc:I said dislike, I think.
Guest:Why would that come out?
Marc:No, I don't hate you.
Marc:Hate is too strong.
Marc:Well, how do we get through this issue as a couple?
Guest:Let me say, the truth is, we're both very ambivalent to negative about marriage.
Guest:But we are doing it because I think that, you know, like many people, first of all, we have a lack of imagination.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:You're very funny.
Guest:no about the idea of like i mean like about we we got married because people like weddings you get all this uh dopamine and serotonin you get all this sure these uh uh hormones cursing through you when you first start fucking someone and you're blinded and you and you think you must get married how long were you going out before you got married about a year oh that's quick
Marc:So, yeah, you really rode that initial high right into it.
Marc:Well, she did.
Guest:She was insistent on.
Guest:Oh, you agreed to it.
Guest:Hello.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Guest:I was afraid you were going to leave every two seconds.
Marc:Well, you know, you were afraid she was going to leave.
Guest:I just couldn't even believe that she, you know, she liked me after.
Marc:So finally she left the English guy and then you're like, no, it was the English guy.
Guest:There was a lot of other guys.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We knew each other during this.
Guest:You and I. Yeah, I was dating everybody.
Marc:I remember we had an awkward meeting about some project and then we sort of knew each other because we had the same circle of friends.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And you were compulsively dating, neurotically dating.
Guest:Oh, he dated everyone.
Guest:I used to run into him on dates.
Guest:Meanwhile, he tried to pick me up when he was on dates with other people.
Guest:That's not a good sign.
Guest:That's how I heard.
Marc:Okay, then I guess a bigger question is how did you stop yourself from fucking other people once you got together?
Guest:You know, it just seemed, you know, it's like that moment of like, well, I guess this is it.
Guest:This is like I gave up completely on Annabelle.
Guest:On all that?
Guest:No, I gave up on Annabelle ever liking me, and all of a sudden she liked me.
Guest:I mean, so how do you predict this?
Guest:I mean, how do you –
Guest:To me, it was like, well, it's fate.
Guest:I have to run with it.
Guest:See, Jeff and I see the world completely differently.
Guest:And this is why we ended up with a he said, she said for the book.
Guest:I mean, some people think, oh, did you write it together?
Guest:God, no.
Guest:We can't even be in the same room together.
Guest:He was in his office.
Guest:I was in my office.
Guest:And then we would send horrible emails to each other.
Guest:That's so stupid.
Guest:Why are you writing this?
Guest:Is that in the book?
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We hashed it out.
Guest:So nothing is actually written together in the book because we see the world differently.
Guest:Jeff believes in fate and destiny and I don't believe in that at all.
Guest:I think it's a random universe.
Guest:People assign meaning to things and so Jeff
Guest:This is our whole thing.
Guest:So there's the random universe, but she'll like move next door to me.
Guest:That's the random universe.
Guest:I'm moving next door to you.
Guest:I'm like, it's LA.
Guest:It's science.
Guest:There's a certain number of possibilities that happen.
Marc:No, I understand your perspective and I understand him, but this is a guy that writes poetry.
Marc:You're a guy that marries painters.
Marc:So you're a planner and he's a guy.
Guest:Some kind of planner.
Marc:But I mean, where do you hang your hope then?
Guest:Well, this is the thing.
Guest:Yeah, where do you hang it?
Guest:Well, first of all, we see the world really differently.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I mean, the funny thing is we wrote this book, and I'm much more puzzled about marriage after writing the book than I was even before.
Guest:How so?
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Well, because I think that it really is an obsolete institution.
Guest:It doesn't make sense anymore for many reasons.
Guest:First of all, we're living too long.
Guest:The institution of marriage was never meant to be for so fucking long.
Guest:No.
Guest:People would die in there.
Guest:A woman gives birth a couple times.
Guest:She's out.
Guest:She's dead.
Guest:She's dead.
Guest:You get a new one.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A guy gets a cold in his 40s.
Guest:It's like, oh, wow.
Guest:He lived a long time.
Guest:No one ever anticipated we'd be living this long.
Guest:So the idea that marriages would last this long, it's ridiculous.
Guest:You know, so first of all, so it's a dying.
Guest:We're dinosaurs, really.
Guest:But the problem is.
Marc:What's the alternative?
Marc:What are you going to be polyamorous?
Marc:Do you want to start introducing new people into the relationship?
Marc:Could you handle that?
Marc:I don't think I could handle that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's the problem is that our psychology, our brains have not evolved to adapt to our longer lifespans in a way that would really make sense, which would be like, for instance, when Alvin Toffler wrote The Third Wave, the whole supposition and future shock, the whole supposition was there would be serial marriages.
Guest:You at different times in your life would have marriages that were appropriate to these different changes in different times.
Marc:That happens all the time.
Marc:It's called the midwife crisis and then someone dies.
Marc:There's three marriages.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, you'll be lucky enough that someone should die.
Marc:Who's Toffler married to right now?
Guest:His same wife, though.
Guest:See, that's the crazy thing is the difference between the ideas and actually in practice life because the truth is that, first of all, if you're seriously rich, you can do whatever you want.
Marc:You can buy people and pretend like they love you.
Guest:Yes, and then you fire them like Ron Perlman.
Guest:Not Perlman, Ron Perlman.
Guest:Very big difference.
Guest:Hellboy versus the chairman of Esther Lauder, right?
Guest:So he goes from marriage to marriage.
Marc:And Ellen Barkin gets a lot of nice jewelry.
Guest:She gets a lot of cash out of it, right?
Guest:Then you're done, moves on to the next.
Guest:But if you're not super rich-
Guest:You can't afford to do that.
Guest:And then there's the human aspect of that we get attachments to each other.
Guest:Some of them are healthy attachments.
Guest:Some of them are unhealthy.
Guest:Why do we stay together?
Guest:Maybe it's our neurosis and our codependence.
Guest:Or maybe we actually, it's that human thing that being human is lonely.
Guest:and you worry about where you're gonna be when you're older.
Guest:Right, so you settle.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:She's a very theoretical person.
Guest:She's all about thinking and figuring it out.
Guest:I like sex.
Guest:How's that going?
Guest:Not so great.
Guest:What are you saying?
Guest:Not so great.
Guest:But statistically speaking, married people still have more sex than single people.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:Because you're in the same room.
Guest:Yeah, and when you're... You can only do so much in a small town.
Guest:It's like when you're married, you forget how hard it is to get laid.
Guest:I mean, you have to go through a lot of work.
Guest:You have to take people out.
Guest:You have to meet them.
Marc:You have to convince... Not if you're rich or famous.
Guest:Not if you're rich or famous, of course.
Guest:It's a very different world.
Guest:It's amazing what rich and fame can do to panties.
Marc:But let's...
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Panties off.
Marc:Okay, so let's talk about that, though, because this is a fundamental sort of issue.
Marc:You guys clearly get along.
Marc:You're not going to get divorced.
Marc:I can tell you right now that's not going to happen.
Marc:You guys are going to be having the same conversations for the next 30 years.
Guest:We just got fired by another marriage therapist, didn't we?
Guest:I think we did.
Marc:That's because you probably, what did you do, annoy them?
Guest:Yes, of course we annoyed them.
Marc:Of course you annoyed them.
Marc:So, I mean, what were you asking them?
Marc:And we're not funny.
Guest:We're not funny with them.
Guest:And we lose, as soon as the humor is gone, it's awful.
Guest:It's like when you're, you can criticize somebody
Guest:and you be mean and it's terrible.
Guest:But if you do it and you're funny and you make that person laugh, then you're golden.
Guest:That's why I like Jeff better in front of other people.
Guest:Yeah, stay focused on that mic.
Guest:He's funny in front of other people.
Guest:What someone says to you alone in a kitchen is not funny, but when they're on stage, it's funny.
Guest:But did you hear what I just said?
Guest:No, I heard it all.
Marc:Let me just ask you.
Marc:So you've been to how many marriage therapists?
Guest:Oh, God, so many.
Marc:Okay, so what is the issue that moves you there?
Marc:Annabelle.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I'm going to just tell you.
Guest:I hate fucking couples therapy.
Guest:It's Nazi torture.
Marc:Well, I made the mistake of not doing it, and it probably was detrimental to me.
Guest:I think the fundamental issue is, do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?
Guest:And that is the problem.
Guest:That Annabelle wants to be right.
Guest:No, you want to be right.
Guest:No, I want to be happy.
Guest:No, you want to be right.
Marc:Okay, so now I'm the couples therapist, and here's what happens.
Marc:Jeff, one second, please.
Guest:Annabelle?
Guest:Yes, Mark.
Guest:Do I have to pay you?
Guest:Do I have to write a check?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:There's no checks here involved.
Guest:All right.
Marc:But what is it that Jeff does in this argument?
Marc:Because clearly you both have the same.
Marc:You both want to be right.
Marc:Now, is there a way we can find a compromise here?
Yeah.
Guest:Ooh, how much time do you have?
Guest:You know, I think that really the hard part is just living with another person.
Marc:What is it about Jeff that makes us want to answer that question?
Guest:Just another person's habits, another person's- Like what?
Guest:What is it?
Marc:Let's talk about the piccadillos.
Guest:It's the day that kills you.
Marc:Yeah, like you wake up and the first thing you do, you look at Jeff and you think, old.
Guest:Oh, no, that's what you think when you look at yourself.
Guest:You tell me you think you feel old.
Marc:So you try to convince her about the negative things about you, which is a little draining, and that will send them away.
Marc:I don't think that I do that.
Marc:Does he try to sell you one that he's old or that he's not?
Guest:No, but let's talk about this.
Guest:No, I was kidding.
Guest:I think that what happens in a marriage is that the things that annoy you about yourself also annoy you about the other person.
Guest:So what you end up seeing is a mirror of yourself that
Guest:And you see your own problems reflected in the other person.
Guest:And I think that's what's so hard about being married is that when you're alone, you can convince yourself of things.
Guest:You can lie to yourself, sure.
Guest:You can lie to yourself.
Guest:And you can also, you know, you don't have to answer to someone else.
Guest:But it's really hard when you have to answer to another person.
Marc:Well, that's the biggest trick, isn't it?
Marc:Like, who wears the pants here?
Guest:Not me, that's for sure.
Guest:I guess, do I wear the pants?
Guest:You wear the dress and the pants.
Guest:Wow, she's got both outfits.
Guest:Yeah, but I don't wear the thigh-high stockings enough for Joe.
Guest:That's the problem.
Marc:Okay, so in the book, and I'm sorry if I'm being too serious here.
Marc:Now, is there some solid advice for people that are married, or is it just sort of a reflection on, I would have read the book had someone sent it to me.
Marc:We had this planned.
Guest:I thought that we sent it to him.
Guest:You didn't send it?
Guest:We did.
Guest:You didn't do it?
Guest:He thought I did it, and I thought he did it.
Marc:No, no, no, we did it.
Marc:Okay, my mistake.
Marc:Let me rephrase that.
Marc:I read the book.
Marc:I enjoyed it very much.
Guest:One of the Ashleys has that book.
Guest:First of all, actually, I think that our idea in the book wasn't so much offering advice, but we wanted to give a portrait of a marriage.
Guest:So that, first of all, people always think, like, is everybody else's marriage like this?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:What is everyone else doing out there?
Guest:And so we say things that people won't say about just how annoying the other person is, how much he used to fart into this one couch that we call the fart couch.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I said that.
Guest:I confess about the fart couch.
Guest:When we were dating, I would go downstairs.
Marc:So she wouldn't hear it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And muffle it in the fart couch.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And when did that come out?
Marc:When is it the right time to say that couch has to be gone?
Guest:Five years after you've given the couch away to your friends so that you can't get it back already.
Marc:So you didn't admit to the fart couch for a long time.
Guest:Well, I did, I think, when you finally said, well, you can fart in front of me.
Guest:And I was like, I don't know.
Guest:See, that's one of the mistakes.
Guest:Okay, this is one of the mistakes we made.
Guest:Yeah, the farting.
Guest:Yeah, the farting and burping in front of each other.
Guest:Burping, too?
Guest:I mean, come on.
Guest:It just kills the... No, you are.
Guest:You're the burper, too.
Guest:You drink water and you burp now.
Guest:See, this is like an old married couple.
Guest:This is like we're the Bickersons.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you're bickering.
Marc:How long has it been going on for?
Marc:I think since probably the beginning.
Marc:From the beginning.
Marc:From the beginning.
Marc:Well, my first met her.
Guest:We were just better looking then.
Guest:We were younger, and so it was kind of easier to like, oh, you look good.
Marc:But now you have a child.
Marc:So do you even pay attention to the child?
Marc:Oh, yeah, I do.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The child, that's the thing, is you have a kid, and I think particularly women, I don't know, maybe you feel this way, you're like madly in love with this child.
Guest:It's like a... He's a nice kid.
Guest:I met him.
Guest:I don't mean this in a creepy way.
Guest:I mean this in the best way possible.
Guest:They're like a lollipop that you want to lick all the time.
Guest:And I mean that in the best way.
Guest:You fight like cats and dogs.
Guest:and yet i i love how old is the kid now 13 this is difficult it's difficult who's he so is he he's moving more towards jeff now yes yeah he told me that i chew too loudly oh so he's just like jeff yeah he's always been to me uh-huh oh thanks jeff yeah that's because i'm away working uh-huh i travel all i'm on the road all the time fighting for the working man yeah exactly what's that book called uh fired fired my other book yeah
Marc:And that's still active and you speak at what, union meetings and whatnot?
Guest:I have done that, yeah.
Marc:And how's that?
Guest:That's the kind of gal I am.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I actually, this is where Jeff just rolls his eyes.
Guest:But I do have this, you know, social activism content to the kind of stuff that I do.
Guest:He's rolling his eyes.
Guest:He did just roll his eyes.
Guest:He's rolling his head.
Guest:He's like choking himself.
Guest:No, I think it's important.
Guest:I think it's important.
Guest:It's a big thing of mine.
Marc:No, no, it's important.
Marc:It's a tradition, and you're a rational, theoretical person, and you understand that there's injustice in the world, and you want to speak to the downtrodden and the people that are being treated unfair.
Guest:Oh, yeah, and she's Rosa Luxemburg.
Marc:Yeah, and you, of course, are sitting at home with your kid, plotting against her.
Guest:They're watching Family Guy laughing their asses off.
Marc:Right, while you spin around and say, don't you see that everything's falling apart?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:This is a beautiful relationship.
Guest:But you don't really speak at union meetings.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:Are you kidding me?
Guest:I was totally involved with SCIU.
Guest:Oh, and she's also into the environment, too, so she also speaks about recycling and sustainability.
Marc:Do you hang out with Lori David and get people to unplug their phones?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I do very sort of middle-class events.
Guest:I can't afford to hang out with Lori David.
Guest:Lori David was my manager in New York.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You've got a lot of stories about Almost Happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, hey, wait.
Guest:That's my next book.
Guest:No, wait.
Guest:When Lori David- Almost Happening with Jeff Conn.
Guest:Wait.
Guest:When Lori David worked with Letterman- I'll be dead when I finish writing it.
Guest:I was on a soap opera at the time, and Lori thought I was really funny, and we made an audition tape for me for SNL.
Marc:yeah that didn't work did you meet with lauren i met with lauren once yeah that's a great experience isn't it yeah it was that was yeah it's always an interesting few minutes to an hour after seven hours of waiting yeah that's very interesting a lifetime of waiting and then down to that moment it wasn't so you have it you you have the kid you have uh so what are some of uh what are some of the tools you have in place to uh to deal with this what do you do
Marc:Deal with?
Marc:Being married to her.
Guest:Drinking.
Guest:Jeff likes a Pinot Noir.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Storming around.
Guest:Storming around, getting angry.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, Jeff, you get an anger on you.
Guest:Do you rage?
Guest:You do.
Guest:It's funny to be called angry by the angriest person you've ever met.
Guest:That's what I find.
Guest:The irony and the hypocrisy.
Marc:That's what I love.
Marc:Do you guys fight?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like yell?
Guest:Yeah, we do.
Marc:Who cries first?
Marc:Me.
Guest:Oh, that's not true.
Guest:I'm a yeller and a crier.
Guest:I'm a lover and a fighter.
Guest:A yeller and a crier.
Guest:That's how we've translated that.
Guest:Actually, you know, there is a statistic that says that couples who don't argue tend to break up faster.
Marc:Really tell that to my ex-wife.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:It is true.
Guest:But no, because when you just keep it in, that's the thing that's really bad for you.
Marc:But some of us, though, when you... Which ex-wife were you talking about?
Marc:The second one.
Guest:The second one, okay.
Marc:The first one I didn't yell at.
Guest:I didn't yell.
Guest:I was not angry in my first marriage.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So what happened in the second one's birth?
Marc:He lived in Chicago.
Guest:That helped.
Marc:No, I can yell on the phone.
Marc:You can't yell on the phone?
Marc:I actually had a breakthrough, if I can share it with you, that...
Marc:with the woman I'm seeing now.
Marc:And it was an honest moment.
Marc:I said, I really like to see you smile more than I like to see you cry.
Marc:Isn't that touching?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's very reductive.
Guest:I think you should put that on a, this is your new business instead of what the fuck.
Guest:You should call it, you know, you can make these little signs that people hang in their houses.
Guest:This is something I actually have noticed.
Guest:So for the last couple of years, I've been doing this show for the Discovery Channel about sustainability.
Guest:It's called Wasted, which has that nice double entendre to like,
Guest:Wasted, right?
Guest:So when I go around, I go to people's homes and I go through their garbage and I look at their footprint and all this stuff.
Guest:Do you want to do my house?
Guest:I don't want to do your house.
Guest:But everybody in America has these little- If you filmed her, she'd do it.
Guest:Thank you, Joe.
Guest:Oh, you're so-
Guest:funny it's just the truth laughing laughing and crying at the same time put the cameras on so wait so this is like i would say 95 percent of americans you're on air uh yeah have little uh inspirational signs around their house yeah like i like to see you smile more than laugh uh i'd like to see you naked more than clothed
Guest:I find that interesting.
Guest:Why is that?
Guest:We have to remind ourselves.
Guest:We have to see.
Guest:I think I first thought that when I noticed that Janine Garofalo had the word think on her arm.
Guest:Her first tattoo.
Guest:We need to see things written.
Guest:It's a really strange human phenomenon.
Guest:We have to see things written to remind ourselves.
Marc:Now, as quirky and irritable or what is that?
Guest:That's one of those things.
Guest:Look, Mark Maron has an inspirational saying.
Guest:He says, I can't.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I can't control it.
Guest:I can't.
Marc:I didn't cause it.
Guest:I didn't cause it.
Guest:I can't control it.
Marc:I can't cure it.
Marc:That's basic Al-Anon.
Guest:I go to Al-Anon.
Guest:I'm an Al-Anon person.
Guest:I just broke my own anonymity.
Marc:Now, are you able to detach from Jeff in a healthy way?
Guest:Detach, but not lovingly.
Marc:Aggressively detached?
Guest:Passively aggressively detached?
Guest:I'm working on aggressive detachment.
Guest:I find that to be a sort of- I'm very good at that.
Guest:It works with my sort of like, I'm powerless over my aggression, but I'm detached.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think the thing that really tests a marriage, and I don't know how you guys handle it, and I know it's all fun and games here, but when you have to deal with obstacles that are painful, grief, accidents, sickness.
Guest:I'm going to say that's a lie.
Guest:I think that that is the opposite from the truth, because the truth is...
Guest:Jeff and I, when we were faced with a really, this is like serious talk for a second, really serious, you know, difficulty, which was when our son was born, he was born with multiple health problems.
Guest:It was a really tough couple of years, just years.
Guest:That actually, maybe it was because we were just too tired to think of splitting up, but we actually, I feel that brought us together.
Guest:That's what I mean.
Guest:The day to day that takes us apart.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's the real test.
Guest:So I mean, you know, the day to day that real test is the day to day that I think is harder than like these big things.
Guest:You know, these these big things that test you, I think, have a have a drama to it.
Guest:They have a momentum to it.
Guest:But.
Guest:It's the day-to-day that can drive you insane.
Guest:And that's what people tell us.
Guest:Because we go and do readings all over the country.
Guest:And what do people say?
Guest:It's not like, oh, it was so difficult when we were bankrupt.
Guest:They say, he loads the dishwasher in the wrong way.
Guest:Someone the other day said to me, I hate that my husband heats up tea with hot water.
Guest:It's so stupid.
Guest:You should use cold water when you're making hot water.
Guest:I mean, it's these things that drive you crazy, these little things.
Guest:She likes the big things.
Guest:And in a way, the huge, huge...
Guest:happening after Ezra's birth the surgeries and the doctors you do well with that that's a huge it's almost like a great distraction for you though and it's like when you're not doing that that's when you start freaking out that's why you like working and going on location and traveling typical Al-Anon behavior which one?
Guest:oh i i like a i like a disaster i like a cause i like a what's what's a bigger cause than you know trying to get your infant son out of his infancy so so he has a life you know it's a huge yeah that's a huge cause and and you know let's not forget we had definitely our share of fighting during that time and disagreements about
Guest:what we were ultimately going to do with Ezra.
Guest:Well, I think like everything in life, it's easier to do it alone, but it gets lonely.
Guest:I mean, that's just the thing.
Guest:It's like making decisions, running your life.
Guest:It's easier when you're in charge of your own decision-making.
Guest:But here's the thing.
Guest:But here's the real memory core that sustains you is that –
Guest:Who was there with me when we waited for our son to come out of his anesthesia in a steel crib in the surgical waiting room with a bunch of heart patients and cancer?
Guest:Who?
Guest:You.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:I thought you were going to say someone else.
Guest:So at the core of everything, she was there.
Guest:Who was with me when he woke up crying and disoriented?
Guest:Well, that goes to the bigger issue of having someone witness your life.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing that you lose.
Marc:I think that you are underappreciating the bond you have by being over-analytical.
Guest:No, but that's what I'm saying is that I am over-analytical.
Guest:What can I say?
Guest:He's under analytical.
Guest:He mostly speaks in cat language most of the time.
Guest:He's meowing.
Marc:But I think that what you have here is a very solid marriage, and I want to talk about the things that piss you off about each other.
Marc:What are these little things, Annabelle?
Marc:You keep going back to that.
Guest:Where do you start?
Marc:You can't begin with that.
Marc:Do you really want to go there?
Guest:I think it's the typical thing that you hear about.
Guest:You love each other.
Marc:You've been through crisis together.
Marc:You've supported each other in career pain.
Marc:And yet it's just unbearable.
Guest:I'm going to say it.
Guest:I think that the really hard thing that most people are struggling with, if I could say in a big sense.
Guest:Let's talk about you.
Guest:Which we are.
Guest:Which is we are a two working family.
Guest:And the breakdown of who works, who doesn't work, who makes money, who doesn't make money.
Guest:Is that a choice in what we do?
Guest:Who does the more chores?
Guest:It's like a bear to deal with.
Guest:He's talking about this.
Guest:And that's what drives us crazy is what we fight about, who gets appreciated, who's underappreciated at any given moment.
Guest:But I think what Mark is saying is the thing about how you would open up a cereal box like you were a wild, feral animal without reason, logic, or opposable thumbs, and how so many years I'd be like, what?
Guest:What is this?
Guest:How do you rip a bottom of a box open like you're a, you know, like, well, Jeff keeps up a narration when we're driving.
Guest:It's like he's he's Stalin behind the wheel.
Guest:He everything he yells at everything we drive.
Guest:It gives me a heart attack.
Guest:OK, he's yelling at other drivers, truck drivers, bicyclists.
Guest:He yelled at a squirrel for not signaling before he crossed the road.
Guest:I mean, he just it's it.
Guest:I didn't hit it, though.
Guest:You didn't.
Guest:I did not hit it.
Guest:It's like living with a dictator.
Guest:It drives me insane.
Guest:I think, why am I driving around?
Guest:I spent half my life in a car.
Guest:Usually we drive separately, actually, because I can't stand being in the car.
Marc:You drive separately following each other?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we do.
Guest:I can't stand being in the car with me.
Marc:That doesn't sound very environmentally proper.
Guest:No, I'm driving a Prius.
Guest:She has a Prius.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, all right.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Or I walk to dinner because I can't stand the narration of other driver's mistakes.
Marc:Do you come from old Jewish lefties?
Marc:Your references are very... Stalin, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I said, where's a Luxembourg?
Marc:What is with you guys?
Guest:My aunt was like a Bolshevik.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I do.
Marc:Your aunt was a Bolshevik?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how about you?
Guest:You come from Bolsheviks?
Guest:No, I don't come from Bolsheviks.
Guest:Where do you come from?
Guest:I come from like, you know, the Kugel Jews.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I come from regular middle class.
Guest:No, I have a little bit of a crazier family.
Guest:My dad is a gambler, and so I grew up just crazy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:We were rich, poor, rich, poor.
Guest:He plays poker, and he had a softcore porn business for a while.
Guest:He had an art gallery.
Guest:Well, he's had a lot of businesses.
Guest:He bought Grand Union Station.
Guest:He had fast food restaurants.
Guest:You name it, we...
Marc:He bought Grand Union Station?
Guest:Yeah, in St.
Guest:Louis, yeah.
Guest:And then he lost it.
Guest:You come home, there's no furniture.
Marc:What happened, dad?
Guest:One day it's a Rolls Royce, one day it's a Chevy Nova.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:I'm more of a Chevy Nova guy.
Guest:I come from crazy.
Guest:But, you know, so that's just one thing.
Guest:Jeff also has nudity radar.
Guest:If I take my clothes off for one second, he's standing there clapping.
Guest:Like he got tickets at Fenway Park.
Guest:But it drives me crazy.
Guest:How could that drive you crazy?
Guest:I have nudity radar.
Guest:I'm not talking about like I'm taking my clothes off for you.
Guest:It just happened the other day, wasn't it?
Guest:It was weird.
Guest:It just popped up and I was like, oh my God, I do.
Guest:I have nudity radar.
Guest:No, it happened right before we came here.
Guest:Yeah, well, somebody dropped a robe in front of me.
Guest:Well, you know what?
Guest:Okay, I thought, all right, I got waxed.
Guest:And I was like, I owed Jeff for a while, and so I just zipped it all off.
Guest:All right?
Guest:Okay, I'm going to admit that.
Guest:That's all right.
Marc:Is that comfortable?
Marc:That'll make my head spin.
Guest:Is it comfortable, the waxing?
Marc:No, no, I mean after.
Marc:I've always wanted to do women like to have that.
Marc:Is it a good feeling?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I'm of two minds about it.
Guest:On one hand, I feel it's a little creepy.
Guest:Why does a guy like to see this?
Marc:I'm not all for it.
Marc:I like a little something there.
Guest:You know, and then on the other hand, it does feel kind of neat and organized, and that fits with my ideology.
Guest:It's all...
Guest:place hey i like it any you know i like i like it any which way but then you get to a certain age and you feel like is this wrong like i look like a pre but now i i think in my mind it's sculptural like a marble statue there are no pubes on a marble statue that's right sure so that's why i don't mind being hairless but anyway as long as you have a way to frame it in your mind yeah i do as long as she can rationalize that as she's talking about it i'm getting hard when i talk about nudity radar
Guest:I'm talking about nudity radar.
Guest:I'm talking about changing your clothes from the gym.
Guest:It's annoying when you're like taking your sweatpants off and there's a hand that reaches underneath your ass.
Guest:It's annoying.
Guest:It makes me feel like an objectified.
Marc:Yeah, but on some level, it's a gift to be married for 13 years and he still can't keep.
Marc:All right.
Marc:15 years.
Marc:That was said with love.
Marc:Don't cheat us on those two.
Marc:And he's still sort of aggressively sexually attracted to you.
Guest:I get aggressive.
Marc:I mean, why wouldn't you be grateful about that?
Marc:I mean, is it really annoying that your husband wants to fuck you all the time?
Marc:Yes, for her it is.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:It can be, it can be grating.
Guest:It can be annoying.
Guest:All right.
Guest:It just about like, okay, you know, it's just 24 hours a day beating the drum.
Guest:Because it seems like you're never going to satisfy him.
Guest:After we have sex, you're like, can we do that again?
Guest:I mean, it's like, okay, when will it ever be enough?
Guest:See, I want to have sex every day.
Guest:I want to have sex once a week.
Guest:So we compromise.
Guest:We have sex once a week.
Guest:And that is marriage.
Guest:That is the entire thing about marriage.
Guest:No, but here's the big issue, okay?
Guest:So 15 is a big year, and I'm not getting any younger.
Guest:And the thing is, Jeff isn't getting any younger either, but for men, there's a different standard than women, okay?
Guest:Okay, so what's the issue?
Guest:So the issue is, okay, if we're gonna, I feel like this is a big point for us, because if we're gonna split up, we should do it now while I'm still fuckable.
Marc:Otherwise- But you don't seem like you wanna fuck that much.
Guest:But if I wasn't married, I'd want two more because it was not.
Guest:Do you really think so?
Guest:Yes, because, well, first of all, okay, no, but what if I don't want to fuck?
Guest:But how else am I going to get someone else to want to be with me if I don't do, I mean, I'm just kidding.
Marc:No, she's just kidding.
Guest:No, I mean, no, how am I going to get someone else?
Marc:You just don't know with your intelligence and your control freak thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What about those two great qualities?
Guest:You don't have trouble finding women to be with you because you're a guy, but a woman who is of a certain age, like 49, what am I going to get?
Marc:Well, I mean, are you really thinking about throwing the towel in just because you're getting older?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How are you going to find someone better than him?
Marc:What are you going to find?
Marc:What do you want?
Marc:More money?
Guest:Money, yeah.
Guest:So it's a money thing.
Guest:So he'd probably be a little bit older, but he could still be in good shape.
Guest:How much older?
Guest:Well, a little bit older.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So now you're pimping out your wife?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, we always said if it was a certain amount of money, you'd take it too.
Guest:How much could we get for me?
Guest:I saw those movies.
Guest:We'd say we're a lot younger.
Guest:It's a double standard for men and women.
Guest:You want a commission?
Marc:You could get a commission if you got divorced.
Marc:Who's making more money right now?
Guest:We have been on this thing.
Marc:You could have.
Guest:we've been on this right down the middle we've been on this contest to outlive each other because we both jeff you're just sitting there like oh no i love her you you are so in this he's also been on this thing about about what trading me in for a does a therapist ever say does it does a therapist ever say this to you when you're a couple's counseling let jeff talk
Guest:Yeah, sometimes they do that and they just look and then I'm like on the spot.
Guest:I'm like, no, I wanted to talk 15 minutes ago.
Guest:I forgot what I was going to say.
Guest:And now it's just you're making it sound like it is just me.
Guest:All right.
Guest:You know, Jeff, or you're making it sound like it's all you.
Guest:We have been on a contest to outlive each other, though.
Guest:Do you want to talk about that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Now, you know, now I'm thinking I'm going to lose that contest.
Guest:I actually been thinking like.
Marc:I think my life is going to be shorter from this interview.
Guest:Yeah, it is shorter from this interview.
Guest:Believe me, you've just lost three years.
Guest:Jeff confessed to me the other day that he thought he's going to outlive me.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Now, where does that come up?
Guest:I thought that- Where does that come up?
Guest:Talking about plans for the future.
Guest:She wants a plan for the future.
Guest:What's our future?
Guest:I mean, this was a little while ago.
Guest:What's our future?
Guest:I don't know what our future is.
Guest:I mean, you know, our future is aging and illness and more aging and then like a really bad illness.
Guest:Then you die.
Guest:I mean, what are you talking about?
Guest:I mean, what kind of plans are you going to make?
Guest:Like we're going to own a vineyard or a golf course?
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's her dad talking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We're going to go to the racetrack.
Guest:You know, it's going to be an inch of a vineyard.
Marc:Well, that's a concern people have is are you saving enough for your retirement?
Marc:But, you know, we're in show business.
Marc:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:There is no retiring until...
Guest:Yeah, who's retiring?
Guest:Until they drag you off when you drop dead on stage.
Marc:Maybe you can retire to the house on Ben's property, and you can be a keeper.
Marc:We could be like the groundskeeper.
Marc:Which house?
Guest:Which house on Ben's property?
Guest:They all have property, Jeff, so we could go to any number of them.
Guest:There's a bunch of different houses.
Guest:And I could be a scullery maid.
Guest:Ben, would you like your toilet clean today?
Guest:Oh, oh, I could make some biscuits for you.
Guest:And Jeff, you could be like...
Guest:Mr. Stiller.
Guest:Mr. Stiller.
Guest:I'll have the car warmed up in an hour.
Guest:And Mr. Lee is on the phone.
Guest:Thank you, Mr. Stiller.
Guest:So you were saying that, you know, I can't plan for the future.
Guest:I'm Jeff Kahn.
Guest:I'm going to outlive you.
Guest:That's my plan for the future.
Guest:That was my plan.
Guest:I thought, you know, after, you know, Annabelle goes tragically and I properly mourn her loss, I will meet and take up with like a crazy Ukrainian model who has a grandfather fixation.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:That was my plan.
Marc:She wouldn't even need to have a fixation.
Marc:Just to get her into the country, she'd be all set.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Statistically speaking, of course, I reminded Jeff that women outlive men.
Guest:And then we were up to 4 a.m.
Guest:on the Death Clock websites trying to find ones that showed who would outlive who.
Guest:And, of course, they all showed that I was going to outlive Jeff.
Guest:No, I found ones that...
Guest:See, because I say I have a positive outlook.
Guest:Jeff, you incorrectly put in that I have a negative outlook on life.
Guest:And I want to just mention this.
Guest:Sometimes people think that I have a pessimistic outlook.
Guest:That's not true.
Guest:You see, I plan.
Guest:I expect the worst to happen.
Guest:So when it doesn't happen and I plan for it, then I'm happy.
Guest:So I think I'm an optimist.
Guest:Jeff, on the other hand, expects the best thing to happen.
Guest:So things don't happen that way.
Guest:So he ends up being pissed off and angry.
Guest:So he's really the pessimist and I'm really the optimist.
Marc:Well, disappointed is different than pessimism.
Marc:I've practiced your thing.
Guest:Low expectations.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Low expectations.
Marc:But then also you're operating in respect to those low expectations.
Marc:Whereas...
Marc:does that really let you embrace life or are you just protecting yourself from any risk?
Guest:It sounds like fear, Annabelle.
Marc:It sounds like fear.
Marc:See, now Jeff has his eyes open.
Marc:He's entering life as a mature person.
Marc:He gets disappointed.
Marc:He manages that disappointment, but yet remains optimistic.
Guest:No, drunk.
Guest:He remains drunk.
Guest:Wait a minute.
Guest:Let me just say one thing here, okay?
Guest:That is, you know what, Mark, you're full of shit, okay?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:That is not, it's not fear.
Guest:Mark is a soothsayer.
Guest:No, he's bullshit.
Guest:Of all the comedians in all the world, Mark always cuts through the bullshit.
Guest:He is the bullshit.
Guest:He's the bullshit.
Guest:No, it's like I might as well say, you know what?
Guest:It's like people were like, I've won the lottery when they're playing the lottery.
Marc:Affirmative.
Marc:That's not what I'm talking about.
Marc:What I'm saying is that maybe you should just say whatever happens is going to happen.
Guest:Well, I'm powerless.
Guest:I like the powerless thing in Al-Anon.
Guest:I really like that.
Marc:No, but you take it another step.
Marc:You say, I'm powerless and I'm fucked.
Marc:Oh, look, I'm not fucked.
Marc:So that worked out.
Guest:No, I say I'm fuckable.
Guest:But I know.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I don't say I'm fucked.
Guest:I'm just saying, look, I like to manage my expectations.
Guest:And I just mean, I think of it as being very zen.
Marc:Where does the joy come from?
Marc:There's no joy.
Guest:That is so not true.
Guest:I don't have joy with you.
Guest:I have a lot of joy in my life.
Guest:I have a lot of joy.
Guest:That is so not true.
Guest:Okay, Ezra and I are bouncing on the trampoline yesterday and I can see the sun reflecting off the trees.
Guest:And I said to Ezra, remember this moment because I'm going to die in a couple of years because I'm 49.
Guest:But remember this moment that before I died- It's good that you're passing along your disposition to the kid.
Guest:We had this day where the sun was shining on the leaves and we were bouncing up and down and we were having so much fun even though my arthritis in my hands was hurting a little bit.
Guest:Do you have arthritis?
Guest:Yes, it fucking sucks.
Marc:And what did Ezra say to this meltdown that you were presenting as a poetic moment?
Guest:I have eight points and you have three points in the game.
Guest:We're playing.
Guest:He doesn't listen to this crap.
Guest:Kids can't hear this.
Guest:Kids can't hear.
Guest:He hears and ignores.
Guest:Kids don't hear.
Guest:He's very smart.
Marc:And then he came in and said, what's wrong with mom?
Marc:Yeah, he does.
Marc:He goes, oh, I like her better when she's in New York.
Marc:That's what he said.
Guest:That's because I have rules, okay?
Guest:Because you have no rules in the house, okay?
Guest:I have rules.
Guest:I'm sure you do.
Guest:She's rulella.
Guest:She's the queen of the rules.
Guest:Kids don't hear you when you talk about certain things.
What are your rules?
Guest:Let's talk about child rearing.
Guest:Okay, child rearing.
Guest:Okay, Ruella, here comes, this is Ruella.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:All right, okay.
Guest:Ruella hates all things fun, by the way.
Guest:Okay, one little rule.
Guest:There's no TV watching on a school night.
Guest:So what happens?
Guest:Jeff and I agree on this.
Guest:I come home and they're watching House.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because.
Guest:Because it's a medical, it's not TV.
Guest:First of all, House is not TV.
Guest:It's a medical drama.
Guest:It's educational.
Guest:I come home.
Guest:There's Lisa Edelstein.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Educational.
Guest:Very educational.
Guest:She's a doctor.
Guest:I come home and I see that they're watching sports.
Guest:And I say, Jeff, I thought there was a rule.
Guest:No TV watching on a school night.
Guest:Hey, it's, you know, sports is not TV.
Guest:We know that.
Guest:Who knew that?
Guest:We're watching the Red Sox.
Guest:And then I come home.
Guest:It's his favorite team.
Guest:And I say, Jeff, why is Family Guy on?
Guest:Well, obviously family guy is not TV because family guy is fucking funny and I'm bonding with my son about what's funny.
Guest:The rule was no TV watching on a school night.
Guest:Is that so fucking big deal?
Guest:It goes for South Park too.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So the other night after his bar mitzvah, oh God, we sound so Jewish, but I sound so Jewish.
Guest:Okay, it's 1 a.m.
Guest:Just now?
Guest:You just noticed that now?
Guest:She just noticed that.
Guest:I don't know how that happened.
Guest:I'm so not Jewish.
Guest:I'm the atheist in this crowd.
Marc:She's the atheist Jew, which is a classic Jewish.
Guest:She is type.
Guest:Who likes ritual.
Guest:Atheist, socialist, Bolshevik Jew.
Guest:Okay, so the other night, it was 1 a.m.
Guest:after Esher's Bar Mitzvah, and I said...
Guest:No, stop texting your girlfriend.
Guest:It's 1 a.m., shut it down.
Guest:Jeff was sleeping on the couch.
Guest:Is that a terrible rule?
Guest:1 a.m., I'm sorry.
Marc:He's 13 years old.
Marc:He's not going to have another thing until he graduates high school.
Guest:13 years old.
Guest:It's 1 a.m., it's enough.
Guest:1 a.m.
Marc:on his one day.
Marc:On his one day of celebration.
Guest:That's what I said at 12 o'clock at night, at midnight.
Guest:But 1 a.m., I think that's like, okay, isn't this girl's parent?
Marc:What are you going to teach your kid?
Marc:I mean, it's like, okay, so now you're the mom that on his one day, she's the sheriff of knowing him.
Guest:Oh, please.
Guest:I worked so hard for that one day.
Guest:One day was great, but 1 a.m.
Guest:you shut it down.
Guest:I'm sorry, 1 a.m., time to shut it down.
Marc:Did you work so hard?
Marc:Did you get the appreciation?
Marc:I did not get the medal.
Guest:Is the medal in the mail?
Guest:He high-fived her.
Guest:Because I did not get it.
Guest:Thank you, Mom, for everything you've done.
Guest:Now go away.
Guest:What was the theme?
Guest:There was no theme.
Guest:We're not theme people.
Guest:Really?
Guest:The theme was we hate Judaism.
Guest:That was the theme.
Guest:That's the end of Judaism for me.
Guest:The rabbi sang songs.
Guest:He was one of these renter rabbi with a guitar guy.
Guest:Oh, you know what?
Guest:Actually, wait a minute.
Marc:There's one cool thing.
Guest:I met the rabbi in prison.
Guest:The Jill Soloway Jew?
Guest:No.
Marc:What's that called, that movement?
Marc:It's called the Yuck?
Marc:The New Jew Review?
Guest:No, it's not that.
Guest:We can't afford that Judaism.
Guest:Now, I met this rabbi in prison.
Guest:I went to the women's prison in Chino to do some volunteering because that's the kind of person I am.
Marc:I know.
Guest:And I met the rabbi there.
Guest:It's his congregation.
Marc:Mark and I go to a congregation at a prison in Chino?
Marc:How many people are in there?
Marc:Mark, we should go.
Guest:A lot of murderers.
Marc:A lot of Jewish murderers?
Guest:No, they're not Jewish until they get there.
Guest:They become Jewish.
Marc:So he's converting murderers into Jews.
Guest:Okay, first of all, if you were in prison, you would embrace any kind of religion.
Guest:There's air conditioning in the chapel.
Guest:No, I get it.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:We could go and administer.
Guest:You need something.
Marc:Rabbi's not completely out of my wheelhouse.
Guest:No, it was very cool.
Guest:It was very inspiring, so I thought he could be inspiring with our son, but he was... He's a typical nudgy... 70s-ish.
Guest:Rainbow, rainbow talus.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Without a lot of irony.
Guest:No irony at all.
Guest:Not even.
Marc:No humor?
Guest:No, no, he had humor, but it was the wrong kind of humor.
Marc:How did Ezra do on the pulpit, on the bima?
Marc:He was great.
Guest:There was no bima.
Guest:We did it in a church.
Guest:We did it in a church.
Guest:We're very ecumenical people.
Guest:There was a huge, I think you have a lot of unresolved parent issues.
Guest:You know what Jeff Garland used to call me?
Guest:You know what Jeff Garland used to call me?
Guest:Jew with a cross.
Guest:And there we were getting our sun bar mitzvah in a room that had the largest cross I've ever seen.
Guest:Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Guest:So the rabbi was like, okay, there was a,
Guest:A cross within his view, like a cross from where he could see.
Guest:So it was a Jesus on a cross.
Guest:This is where our son went to an Episcopal school.
Guest:So we had it at that church.
Guest:So he had the cross taken down.
Guest:But what we didn't tell him was that he was in front of a window with Ezra.
Guest:They set up the thing there that right outside the window, and we never told the rabbi, he and Ezra were centered between two crosses right behind him.
Guest:It was very beautiful.
Guest:Did you get that picture?
Guest:I got that picture.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:It was very funny.
Guest:He was like, don't tell the rabbi.
Guest:He's right between no red crosses yeah between a cross and a hard place he was He was in a guitar.
Guest:He kept singing.
Guest:He kept singing.
Guest:I was like, I thought we cut some of these songs Stop, you know
Marc:Were they the really long Jewish songs that kept going?
Marc:A lot of this.
Guest:Do you know what?
Guest:People liked it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:The old people like it.
Guest:And the young people.
Guest:I couldn't stand it.
Guest:That's the end for me.
Marc:Well, there's a lesson to learn.
Guest:Jeff complained the way he drives the entire time.
Marc:You gotta just shut the fuck up for five minutes and let the kid have a day.
Marc:Yes, I thought, you know.
Guest:Our son was rolling his eyes.
Guest:He's inherited our sense of irony.
Guest:But he was great.
Guest:See, compared to the rabbi, Ezra was like a poised, cool, collected, really great.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:Do you think anyone who listens to your podcast are parents?
Guest:Because I was going to say, what do you hope to teach your parents?
Guest:I mean, all I really want to communicate to your kids.
Guest:I mean, all I really want, you know, my goal as a parent is to...
Guest:is to, first of all, make sure that he won't go into show business.
Guest:That is my biggest goal.
Marc:I think the more important question is the slip you made.
Marc:What do you want to teach your parents?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:I have nothing.
Marc:What did they do?
Guest:No, no, I have detached from that.
Guest:Oh, no, you haven't.
Guest:I am totally detached from that.
Guest:That is bullshit.
Marc:That is not true.
Marc:I think Annabelle wants to teach the world.
Marc:I think you should write another book called child rearing with spite, which is that that that my no, no, no, not against your kid, against your parents.
Marc:I mean, my brother is so dedicated to doing it right that he's going to do it exactly the same way his parents did it.
Guest:No, I think what you do is you polarize.
Marc:He's already better.
Guest:He's already better.
Guest:Jeff is so concerned with not being structured and rules because he has some instruction rules.
Guest:It's called flexibility.
Guest:But I am the opposite.
Guest:My parents, they were busy with their own life, so I had no supervision.
Guest:So I'm just trying to- Manage everything.
Guest:No, you know-
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:No, I want our kid to have a sense of discipline and just so he does not end up in show business.
Marc:Well, look, I come from the same background you did.
Marc:I was not given sports, which you've already given him was very good.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To give a kid a healthy sense of competition to where it's not life threatening if he loses and he can handle losing is important.
Guest:Yeah, that is.
Marc:I didn't have that.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't have any, well, our parents had no boundaries.
Marc:And boundaries is more important than, like a little lack of discipline, that's one thing.
Marc:But literally, my parents would say, if I said, can I go to the thing with so-and-so, then my mother would say, do you want me to say no?
Marc:It was very confusing.
Marc:So you really have to have some, like it was always on me and I didn't know if I made the right choice.
Marc:So I was not parented properly, but it seems, I don't know, it seems like you guys are pretty grounded despite the spinning.
Guest:No, Ezra says like, you know, I just don't want to be like you and dad.
Guest:I don't want to be freelancers.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Well, I think, yes.
Guest:Because that's what you tell him your job is?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:He can see it.
Guest:He's very smart.
Marc:He can see the frustration?
Marc:Yes, he can.
Guest:Why is daddy home again?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what he said to me?
Guest:He said, he's so, you know, like, you've got to...
Guest:You have to understand how smart and clever he is already.
Guest:He's the smartest kid in the whole world.
Guest:He'll say, he said to me, Dad, you ever think about this?
Guest:You know, like a night at the museum where Tony goes, Ben Stiller is, he's in this movie and he's like, he's got a house in Hawaii and he's moving to New York and you're sitting here on this couch here and you need a job.
Guest:Did he ever think like that?
Guest:Welcome to show business.
Guest:Do I ever think like that?
Guest:It's all I think about.
Guest:Will you stop torturing me?
Guest:You're 13, you're torturing me.
Guest:And he loves busting my chops.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:You need that, right?
Marc:You're not doing it enough for yourself.
Marc:You just manifested between the two of them.
Guest:Jeff has no boundaries, by the way.
Marc:You do not have boundaries.
Marc:It seems like you do.
Guest:I have boundaries.
Marc:He just needs a lot of attention.
Marc:He needs a lot of attention.
Marc:Different than not having boundaries.
Marc:That's a vacuum.
Marc:That means you're inviting people into your boundaries relentlessly.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, you know, in conclusion.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think we've come a long way here.
Marc:This is a good session.
Marc:I'm not sure we achieved anything.
Marc:We never do.
Guest:But, you know, our book, I mean, people confuse it sometimes.
Guest:It's not a self-help book.
Guest:It's a self-hurt book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We are offering like worst case scenario of marriage.
Guest:So this is what not to do.
Guest:In a way, yeah.
Guest:In a way, it is.
Guest:And it's funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's catharsis.
Guest:Yes, it's cathartic, and we try to do this honestly and genuinely and just tell it the way it is and not sugarcoat it and not give people... That, again, deals with expectations.
Guest:We want to say, look, this is what a marriage really looks like.
Guest:People don't say it out loud, so people also feel they're not alone.
Guest:Yes, people really do annoy each other, but you can still be married and annoy each other.
Guest:And then it could...
Guest:It sucks to be married a lot of the time.
Guest:It sucks.
Guest:And you have to make this decision.
Guest:Do you want to keep going and doing it or do you want to get out of it?
Guest:It's not – I don't think that it's – we talk about this a lot and even in this play we do about –
Guest:The romantic comedy idea that everything is building, leads up to marriage.
Guest:And then you have no problems.
Guest:Well, there's this idea in the culture.
Guest:Everything ends with the wedding.
Guest:Sure, that's right.
Guest:Marriage will solve all your problems.
Guest:But no, it just gives you bigger problems.
Guest:No, it's the beginning of your problems.
Guest:This is when life really happens.
Guest:This is real life now, you know?
Guest:Well, you can't ignore the things that existed, the issues that you have in marriage.
Guest:If you're alone, you can choose not to live.
Marc:But there's also this, like I see with the two of you, there's a medium that has to be found where it's like you can't hold the shit in because then it becomes malignant in the relationship.
Marc:But you can't overanalyze it to death because then you don't have any, you're not living life.
Guest:You also can't say everything to each other.
Guest:This is one of those things like...
Guest:Wait, why am I talking?
Marc:Well, honesty should not be used as a weapon.
Marc:There's a difference between being honest and being honest to be hurtful.
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:And so there's just this medium to find.
Marc:Because like a lot of times I'm stubborn, right?
Marc:So I look at people that are married that have kids.
Marc:I've been married twice.
Marc:I have no kids.
Marc:and i'm an emotional fuck up i mean i am and and the when i see people in their dynamic like i had phil rosenthal in here talking about everybody loves raymond and i've talked to people that have marriage before and this whole idea sort of like that's the way it goes she wants what she wants and then you do what she wants to do and everything's fine i'm like no i i can't that's why you're not married that's right and you have three cats and let me just say you know i worry about you mark with the three cats
Guest:And this is that double standard.
Guest:What do you mean that double standard?
Marc:You're friends with my ex-wife.
Marc:There's a million things more to be worried about me.
Guest:No, the double standard of like a woman with three cats is like, oh, she's a cat lady.
Guest:But you have three cats and you've got a relationship.
Guest:You had two cats when I met you.
Guest:We talked about this.
Guest:One hid in the closet all the time, so it doesn't really count.
Guest:The two cats, which were when I was in New York.
Guest:Wait, I interrupted you.
Guest:So you talk to people like Phil Rosenthal.
Guest:What do you think?
Guest:Do you think, oh, I should do that?
Guest:Or like, oh, I just will never do that?
Marc:My personal emotional position, I'm very paranoid and I'm very sensitive and I assume a lot of things that are happening that aren't happening.
Marc:So that's my own personal problem.
Marc:I think I'm being fucked with all the time.
Marc:And the truth of the matter is you are, but it's not on purpose.
Guest:That's the random nature of the universe.
Marc:No, it's not the random nature of the universe.
Marc:It's the dynamic of relationship.
Marc:Is that, you know, people are manipulative.
Guest:People are- Oh, I thought you meant in the general sense you're being fucked with in relationships.
Marc:No, people are manipulative.
Marc:People want to get what they want.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Their needs need to be met.
Guest:Even paranoids have real enemies.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And I'm just saying that, you know, there's a level of tolerance and compromise that must happen for a relationship to work and you can't be abusive.
Guest:That's the key is I think that at a certain point you ask yourself, what is my level of tolerance?
Guest:What is it?
Guest:And you really wonder whether you've gone over it.
Guest:Or you're you've hit that you've crossed the line.
Marc:Well, there's also the issue of your own self, like, you know, where you say you both become a reflection of each other and that that becomes an indicator.
Marc:But but if you have a shitty self image or you're beating yourself up, eventually you're going to want to convince the person.
Marc:Here's the dynamic that I that I fell into.
Marc:That is bad.
Marc:is that when i'd get into a bad place and i'd say i'm fucked nothing's working out i'm an asshole and she would try to make me feel better eventually i would convince her that i was an asshole and then when she was as miserable as i was i go see there we go right so now you're all fucked up it's self-fulfilling yes it is
Marc:So you got to you should try to get some of your own shit together.
Guest:Well, you know, it's like work on your get to clean up your own side of the street.
Guest:Here's one respect and trust contempt is just is a killer.
Guest:But one thing I think that is really true is when you work together.
Guest:I mean, that's what it's done to us is like, you know, you pushed our marriage and our work all together.
Guest:That creates a lot of pressure.
Guest:It's like a
Guest:Powder, what is that?
Guest:Powder keg.
Guest:Powder keg.
Guest:Powder keg.
Guest:That's a ridiculous kind of image now.
Guest:Explosive.
Guest:It's very 19th century, right?
Marc:What do you want to say?
Marc:It's a plastic explosive.
Marc:It's a nuclear... Unconnected to wires.
Marc:Powder keg's tight.
Marc:Yeah, it's poetry.
Marc:Respect and trust are important, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You have that?
Marc:I have a lot of respect for Annabelle.
Marc:And I trust her.
Guest:I have a lot of... Especially on stage.
Guest:That's good.
Marc:That's important.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What?
Marc:Annabelle, this is not a time for funny.
Marc:This is a time for... Be nice.
Marc:Do you have respect and trust for Jeff?
Marc:You're in trouble.
Marc:Probably not.
Marc:Yes, I'm in big bad.
Guest:Did you want the honest answer?
Guest:Do you really have respect and trust?
Guest:I mean, let's be really honest.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I think I get tested on that.
Guest:I do.
Guest:By him.
Guest:I think I... I have more... I respect you more than I would say that I trust you because sometimes I don't trust you.
Guest:I trust you more than I respect you.
Guest:But I don't...
Guest:Don't don't get the trust thing mixed up with like, are you talking about like monogamy and that kind of trust?
Marc:No, I'm just talking about that, that, you know, she has your interest in her.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:That that's that I have more trouble with in the respect.
Guest:What what you do?
Guest:I always thought that was the basis of our whole relationship was that we knew we wanted the best for each other.
Guest:I think that's one of the problems that we have in our relationship that we both don't trust that we do.
Guest:I thought that was the thing that we were trying to work on.
Guest:Oh, I thought that that was what was there.
Guest:That you might be too selfish issue in that way that it really comes down to like.
Guest:No, that we often say like, you know, you don't, you know, that don't you remember that I have your own, you know, that I have your best interest or that that's the, you know, that's really the reality.
Guest:But that doesn't.
Guest:I actually think we've gotten to a truth that's deeper than anything we've ever gotten to in therapy, Jeff, which is that I always think that that is there.
Guest:I always thought that we knew we had our best interest for each other.
Guest:But you always say to me, don't you think I have – I mean, we always talk about that more than respect.
Guest:Well, something to talk about later over coffee.
Guest:Uh-oh, I'm a little nervous because we actually drove here together.
Guest:What's the ride home going to be like now?
Guest:This is an interesting conversation.
Marc:The respect, trusting, and each other's best interests.
Guest:When we've combined our work and our marriage together, you get to all these different levels of how...
Guest:in it together we are.
Guest:It's like we jumped off a cliff together.
Guest:It's intense.
Guest:We put everything into our lives together, which seemed like a good idea at the time.
Marc:I've been in a relationship where I had everyone's best interest.
Marc:We were in a similar type of business, but as soon as she got her own opportunity, that was it.
Marc:It was enough for her to get out of the relationship.
Marc:These are important questions.
Marc:And it's sort of a maudlin place to leave this interview.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Wow, uh-oh, I really brought it down.
Marc:You want to leave on maudlin?
Guest:I didn't cause it.
Guest:I can't control it.
Guest:I can't cure it.
Guest:I thought it was curb it.
Marc:Curb it?
Marc:You can't curb it.
Marc:Well, you can curb it.
Guest:Here's what I thought it said.
Guest:I thought it said, I can't curse it.
Guest:I didn't curse it.
Guest:I can't control it and I can't curb it.
Guest:I had a whole different philosophy going there.
Marc:But we both know you can curb things.
Marc:I can curb it, yeah.
Marc:You guys, you feel alright?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did we create a thoughtful ending?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think we created a thoughtful ending.
Guest:Look, that was the ultimate.
Guest:I think that was really my ultimate goal was to create a provocative question in people's mind, even about our own marriage.
Guest:Of course, people come away from it thinking it's like makes you really people read our book and get inspired.
Guest:I wanted to just ask the question.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Is this good or is it bad?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because that's the kind of person.
Marc:So you're actually asking your audience to parent you.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Since she couldn't get her parents to do it.
Marc:I think we got it.
Marc:I think we've done some good work here.
Guest:I'm not asking our audience to breastfeed me.
Marc:That's Jeff.
Guest:I'm not really a breast guy, actually, no.
Marc:Ass?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:That's too bad for us.
Guest:I have always had better breasts than ass.
Guest:You have great breasts.
Guest:Not to say anything about her breasts.
Guest:You have the perfect breasts.
Guest:Oh, the ass.
Guest:He named...
Guest:i have a sad left cheek he named my ass there's one it's one side's a little lower than the other what's the name the sad left cheek you named it you named the sad left cheek i say that the right cheek isn't that much happier but you know what that's why i don't want to be single i'd have to work out so i can't i couldn't let someone who hasn't seen this ass over the years see this ass i'd have to work out so fucking much it would be really hard
Marc:Well, I think at this point, I think we've agreed that if you're going to let someone else see your ass, he's probably going to have his own issues, too, because he's at that age, and he's not going to be so judgmental.
Marc:He'll be pretty happy with your ass.
Guest:That's the nicest thing a husband can say.
Marc:And I think that's a fine place to end.
Marc:Thank you, Annabelle and Jeff.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:So that went well, right?
Marc:They sound happy.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Give us a couple of bucks and we'll try to, you know, use it wisely.
Marc:Also, you can get all the merchandise.
Marc:I know Christmas is over, but we got stuff left.
Marc:tote bags, mugs, posters.
Marc:Gonna put some new posters up.
Marc:Anyways, enough of that.
Marc:Enough.
Marc:Go back to your vacation and feel better about your relationship now that you heard this episode.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:Between us?
Marc:You know what I'm saying.
Okay.
you