Episode 235 - Donald Glover
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this, what-the-fuckers, what-the-fuck buddies, what-the-fuckineers, what-the-fuckstables, what-the-fuck-a-ricans, what-the-fuck-a-holics, what-the-fuck-a-mollins, what-the-fuck-a-nadians, what-the-fuck-anucks.
Marc:All right, no, now, stop, stop.
Marc:God, stop it.
Marc:Mark Maron, this is WTF.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:I appreciate all your input.
Marc:A couple of things I want to say.
Marc:I do have Donald Glover on the show today.
Marc:I'm very excited to put that up.
Marc:We had a great conversation.
Marc:The other thing I want to say is that I know there are a lot of new listeners to WTF.
Marc:I'm glad you found the podcast.
Marc:There's a lot of them.
Marc:There's like about 230 something.
Marc:There's a lot of them.
Marc:There are 50 that are available.
Marc:The most recent 50 are available for free at all times on iTunes.
Marc:You can subscribe there, download the episodes.
Marc:But if you do not know this, if you get the app for iPod Touch, iPad, Droid, or your computer...
Marc:you can stream every episode from the beginning.
Marc:And there is some unique premium content on the apps.
Marc:As a matter of fact, I am going to put up a bonus episode.
Marc:It's a great one.
Marc:It's an old live episode we did at Comics.
Marc:It was only a premium for a long time.
Marc:It's got Dave Attell, Bobby Kelly, Anthony Jeselnik, Amy Schumer, Joe DeRosa, Kurt Metzger.
Marc:So if you get the app now,
Marc:You will get that episode that has never been heard unless you bought it.
Marc:That would be incentive for me.
Marc:That live show with a towel was fucking hilarious.
Marc:And that is an app premium WTF.
Marc:Enjoy that.
Marc:So I know that since I talked to Donald Glover, not Glover, I know I say Glover because I'm an idiot.
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:But since then, NBC has sort of put the show community on a kind of limbo, on a hiatus.
Marc:The rest of the season's episodes are going to air, and we don't know if they're going to get a fourth season.
Marc:Now, this is the amazing thing about show business that is horrendous.
Marc:You have a show.
Marc:People that love that show are loyal to that show, look forward to that show.
Marc:But because it's not enough people for NBC...
Marc:they're like i don't know we're gonna yeah you know what it's not really doing well for us the amount of our lives i don't care what kind of business you are but you are in but do you ever think about how much of your life is defined by how much money you make for somebody else or how much you facilitate making money for somebody else as you make money for yourself hey i'm doing all right but really my job hangs in the balance of their books and
Marc:We're doing a great thing here and we're all paid pretty well.
Marc:But when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter if they're not making enough money off of this great thing we're doing.
Marc:It's just horrendously frustrating to know that even with the outlets we have, you know, technologically and who knows what will ultimately happen, that it just comes down to this weird group decision based on numbers as to whether or not something great survives or doesn't.
Marc:That's frustrating, and that's just a reality.
Marc:And quite honestly, if everybody loves something, 99% of the time, it's shit.
Marc:It's shallow.
Marc:It's not provocative.
Marc:That's just a real, unless it's like ice cream or something tangible.
Marc:But in terms of media product, if something is so hypnotic and so generic or so broad that everybody likes it,
Marc:How much can they really like it?
Marc:It's got to be relatively disposable.
Marc:But I feel bad that he's in this situation, but that happened recently.
Marc:We talked to him a little bit ago, but it was a great talk.
Marc:It was really one of the best conversations I've had on this show about a lot of different things.
Marc:Oh, that's the other thing about you only being validated in your life and allowed to work if you're making someone else or some other entity
Marc:a lot of money and they prefer that you do it as cheaply as possible.
Marc:If you can make a company a lot of money by not spending anything, you're a fucking genius.
Marc:That will, that will determine that you work for a long time.
Marc:And whatever it is that you have are working in is if you can say, look, I'm making this thing and it costs nothing and everybody likes it.
Marc:Oh, and just, Oh, the nature of disposable culture.
Marc:That's starting to drive me a little fucking nuts again.
Marc:The fact that nobody even expects things to be made with any quality.
Marc:The fact that nobody even, they buy stuff and they're like, that doesn't matter.
Marc:I'll throw it away.
Marc:It's cheap.
Marc:It drives me nuts.
Marc:I have dreams of things lasting forever.
Marc:Maybe I'm a romantic, even if it's shoes.
Marc:So I had a weird thing.
Marc:It's not a weird thing, but it's been a long time since I've walked off stage and felt like I had been schooled somehow or I had overestimated myself.
Marc:I decided to go out and jam with a band.
Marc:Someone asked me, Chris Porter, the comedian, he has a band.
Marc:There's a couple other comics in it and a couple of musicians.
Marc:And they do cover songs.
Marc:You know, it's a good time.
Marc:It's just a good time band.
Marc:But they were playing a gig where they do a little comedy show before.
Marc:And then they jam.
Marc:And they're real good.
Marc:They're real tight.
Marc:You know, they do some Zeppelin.
Marc:They do some Stones, some Faces, some Black Crows.
Marc:And Chris is a great singer.
Marc:And they asked me if I wanted to sit in for a few songs.
Marc:So I said, let me see your set list.
Marc:They sent me the set list.
Marc:I said, I can handle this stuff.
Marc:I could certainly do Stay With Me.
Marc:I could do Let It Bleed.
Marc:I could do Statesboro Blues.
Marc:And they said, do you want to come over and rehearse for a couple hours?
Marc:I'm like, yeah, that'd be fun.
Marc:This is something I really need to do is get out and jam and have a good time.
Marc:Because I really want to... I like playing guitar.
Marc:But as you know, I like playing guitar by myself in my garage with people I enjoy playing with.
Marc:And they all exist on CD.
Marc:And they never judge me.
Marc:And if it's not going well, I can just start the song over.
Marc:And Muddy Waters rarely says...
Marc:Marin, where are you?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Stay on the beat.
Marc:Neither is Jimi Hendrix or Jimi Vaughn or Hubert Sumlin or Jimmy Reed or Keith Richards.
Marc:They never bust my balls about my playing.
Marc:It's a very one-sided relationship, which I enjoy.
Marc:So I go over and practice with these guys and I have a good time.
Marc:I bring one of my dirtier guitars because I thought that those were dirty songs and I don't play that guitar.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:In the rehearsal, I had a great time and I played well.
Marc:And it's fun to play with musicians that are good because you can't fuck up that much.
Marc:So then the night of the performance comes and I go out there.
Marc:And all I'm thinking about, like I got to do 15 minutes of comedy and then they take a break and then they play.
Marc:And all I'm thinking about is like, I just want to get up there.
Marc:I want to get up there.
Marc:I want to plug in.
Marc:And it's not my amp.
Marc:And I don't play out at all.
Marc:I don't play with other people publicly.
Marc:I've done it maybe twice in my life.
Marc:And I'm waiting, and I'm just thinking like, God, I really want this to go well.
Marc:I want to get into a groove.
Marc:I want to feel like I'm a guitar player who can play with other people.
Marc:I'm just really excited and nervous.
Marc:And generally, I don't have... I don't know if you know this about me.
Marc:A lot of you think I'm a self-centered blabbermouth who can't shut up.
Marc:But inside...
Marc:For the most part, I'm pretty shy and given a choice.
Marc:I don't want to play lead guitar.
Marc:I like to play rhythm guitar.
Marc:I like to fade back a little bit.
Marc:I like to be a little more subtle.
Marc:I don't like to hit anybody over the head with shit.
Marc:That's really my nature.
Marc:So they bring me up, and I'm plugged into this amp, and it's really loud.
Marc:It's louder than anything that I play in here, and I play loud sometimes, but now I've got to fill a room.
Marc:I'm playing with other people, and it's loud, and it scares me.
Marc:I hit the chord, and I'm like, holy fuck.
Marc:I've never heard myself this loud.
Marc:Can everybody hear me?
Marc:And then it's too dark on stage.
Marc:I can't see my fingers.
Marc:I fuck up the beginning of the first song.
Marc:I do okay, but then I do okay and let it bleed.
Marc:But I'm very self-conscious and I can't stop looking at my fingers.
Marc:And I must have looked terrified, which my girlfriend validated when I got off, that there was such a tension in my face that it didn't seem like there was much joy in it.
Marc:And then I kind of I was off rhythm a little bit from what I could tell on Statesboro Blues.
Marc:And in the middle of that, I'm like, I'm just I'm fucking up.
Marc:I'm fucking up.
Marc:And I got off stage and I just felt horrible.
Marc:And I walked out with my guitar and my girlfriend.
Marc:I didn't even think I earned the blow job, to be honest with you.
Marc:I mean, I mean, that's the least that, you know, I mean, when you play guitar on stage, that's what you know, you should get that if you have a woman that saw you.
Marc:I didn't think I earned that, and I was beating myself up the whole way home, and I was like, I can't.
Marc:But it was sort of a weird lesson for me, is that I know I'm okay, and I know that if I wanna do what I did with them, I need to play with people, I need to practice.
Marc:So there was a different point in my life where I would do that, and I'd be like, fuck it, I'm no good, I can't do this, I'm an idiot, as opposed to just think like, well, maybe you should do it more,
Marc:and uh get comfortable with that with playing with other people with practicing songs and all that so i spent a good part of the uh the ride home basically being a insecure creative person uh with my girlfriend jessica saying no i thought it was good i'm like did you really though did you i mean come on it kind of sucked i kind of fucked up i didn't hear it i thought you sounded good no fuck that i mean i i shouldn't even fucking you know think i can play with people and
Marc:No, I thought it sounded good.
Marc:You looked a little nervous.
Marc:Yeah, right?
Marc:Right?
Marc:Because I couldn't stop looking at my thing.
Marc:Like anything I could try to get out of her that would have been negative.
Marc:I was trying to guide her to the negativity.
Marc:I wanted her to match my misery.
Marc:It's one of those practical applications of misery loves company.
Marc:And because I do that, people are saying it was fine.
Marc:I'm like, I'm trying to figure out from their voice how genuine that is, because I've been in it.
Marc:I know when I don't do that good.
Marc:And people are like, yeah, man, you should really do this more.
Marc:That's like a non compliment.
Marc:It's a polite way of saying it was OK.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:I just had to come home and.
Marc:play all those songs with the bands that made those songs.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:Ronnie Wood did not judge me.
Marc:Rod Stewart didn't judge me.
Marc:Bill and Charlie were fine with how I stayed on top of the rhythm.
Marc:And Dwayne Allman and I had a great jam session, which is weird because he's dead and he certainly didn't say anything.
Marc:So I'm back in the garage, back at it.
Marc:Garage guitar legend.
Guest:That's me.
Marc:You know, I'm sorry about the ants.
Guest:Oh, I got an ant problem, too.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yeah, it's bad.
Marc:I believe that my house is built on some sort of ancient ant colony.
Guest:Where are you showing up?
Guest:Everywhere.
Guest:I don't even know how.
Guest:They were in the kitchen.
Guest:I was like, okay, that makes sense.
Guest:They probably came from the door, under the door, and then into the sink and was eating all this shit in my sink.
Guest:So I cleaned that up.
Guest:But they're downstairs, and I don't know how they got in the downstairs.
Guest:And they're in my upstairs.
Guest:And they won't go away from my upstairs bathroom.
Guest:There's nothing for them to eat upstairs.
Marc:back i think it's water is it water like do they need water that bad i'm not clear what the hell it is but i thought i did one night i had an i had like a five inch thick line of ants and flying gnats moving across the ceiling in here i don't know where they were going they had an agenda
Marc:I was freaking out.
Marc:I thought that they were termites.
Marc:That's the other thing I worry about.
Marc:Termites.
Marc:Well, you're a new homeowner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's the big thing.
Guest:I just got a house, and they are just like, yeah, if it's termites, you're just fucked.
Guest:There's just nothing.
Guest:I mean, that's it.
Guest:I don't even want to think about it.
Marc:Because this thing, how old is your house?
Marc:You bought it in Silver Lake?
Marc:It's new.
Marc:Oh, it's a new place.
Marc:It's a new place.
Marc:So it can't have termites yet.
Guest:Well, it can't have termites yet, but I've been fucked over.
Guest:I mean, the living room is already sinking.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Guest:The living room's sinking.
Guest:Did you have it built or you just bought it?
Guest:No, I just bought it.
Guest:But there's two houses.
Guest:They cleared this land.
Guest:They put a house on top.
Guest:That's my house and a house right next to it.
Guest:They're mirror images of each other and they're building one right below it.
Guest:And the mirror image one, a girl moved in and she's like, my living room's sinking and I'm talking to the people, is your sinking?
Guest:And I was like, I don't know.
Guest:And she came over and she's like, oh yeah.
Guest:And it's sinking.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:How do you know your living room is sinking?
Guest:The floor is falling in there?
Guest:The floor is falling in.
Guest:They put a leveler on it and the bubble's all fucked up.
Guest:Oh my fucking God.
Guest:But the thing is, oh you can do that?
Guest:You can just sell a house and no...
Guest:This is America.
Marc:You can sell a house to someone who has no money.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:You think they're drawing lines at living room syncing?
Marc:At living room syncing.
Marc:They're like, oh, we got rid of that one.
Marc:That guy's a sucker.
Marc:These celebrities are easy.
Guest:It wasn't even like a big house.
Guest:I wish... If it was like a big mansion-y house, it's just a small fucking house.
Guest:I was like, oh, I just want it to be new so I don't have to worry about this shit.
Guest:But of course...
Marc:I'm telling you, man, once you got a house, once you got a house, it's all worry.
Marc:It's never done.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You have to learn just to accept that there's no finishing it.
Guest:I don't have a yard, and the yard costs thousands of dollars.
Guest:What?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:This is why my dad is always upset and wanted me to rake and shit.
Guest:I was like, oh, you got to keep the outside nice or people will get pissed.
Guest:Your neighbors will be like, because it's just a dirt pile, and I'm fine with a dirt pile.
Guest:I'm never there.
Guest:I'm touring.
Guest:But they're like, you gotta clean up your dirt pile.
Marc:Donald Glover in the garage came over from... It's a nice day.
Guest:It's a very pretty day.
Marc:It's not that far a drive, right?
Guest:No, no, I'm not from Silver Lake, no.
Marc:So you're not homo.
Marc:What are you touring with?
Marc:Are you touring with comedy or with...
Marc:Childish Gambino.
Guest:First of all, I'm amazed you know Childish Gambino.
Marc:I didn't even think you would even... Well, I don't do a lot of research, but I remember we talked about this the first time I talked about it, or somebody told me about it, that you've got this musical thing.
Marc:Now, when you hear a comic's doing a musical thing, you're like, well, is it a funny thing?
Marc:I mean, the name's funny.
Marc:And then you're like, what is it?
Marc:And then I watched about five minutes of you on stage with your band, and I realized, holy fuck, he's serious.
Guest:He's seriously doing a music thing.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I went to the Montreal Comedy Festival and then for the Funny or Die party, they were like, hey, let's have Childish Gambino.
Guest:And there is nothing.
Guest:First of all, I don't know what gave me the fucking balls to do that.
Guest:I was like, I'm surrounded by comedians doing actual rap.
Guest:You mean to go up and sing?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Well, rap and sing.
Guest:Yeah, I do sing too, but like, and not have it be a bit.
Guest:Like comedians are like, Chelsea Peretti like fucking ripped into me, man.
Marc:she did i mean like as i mean like she likes it but she's just like she's like you know right well there's there's not a great history of comics performing music you know and for those of you who have the jamie fox record perhaps yeah eddie murphy record they're all classics well well i think that what i see in you is you're pretty uh you know shiny and and uh and new
Marc:And you have seemingly unbounding talent.
Marc:And somehow or another, you've mustered up the courage to use it in a lot of different ways.
Guest:Well, it took me like eight years to actually be like, okay, I'm actually doing this.
Guest:Because I knew people were going to be like, what the fuck?
Guest:What, singing or rapping?
Guest:Yeah, that shit.
Guest:Because I've been doing music since way before comedy.
Marc:That's what it felt like to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When I watched it, I was like, this was the dream.
Yeah.
Marc:but i was like comedy you can always be like i was fucking around oh yeah with comedy like comedy really if you think about it is almost a default like if you're a funny guy you're like that's easy you're not easy as a job but it doesn't once you figure out comedy doesn't take a lot of work and you know how to express yourself and be vulnerable but still be funny but music you're all fucking out
Guest:You're out there.
Guest:Like, that's the thing.
Guest:I don't, because you really do have, and you have to keep that persona.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:Like, what was that Patton Oswalt joke?
Guest:He's just like, you know, like, he said it must be hard to be Lenny Kravitz because, like, you can't just go to the store and get milk.
Guest:You just have to put on the bamboo vest.
Guest:He's like, you have to be Lenny Kravitz all the fucking time.
Guest:He looks like he loves being Lenny Kravitz.
Guest:Yeah, he doesn't look like he's like, oh, that's a, well, he's like, oh, where's my bamboo vest?
Marc:I woke up.
Marc:Yeah, he's never, he's never leaving the house going, God damn it.
Marc:Why do I have to be Lenny Kravitz today?
Oh, yeah.
Marc:But, you know, I like Lenny.
Marc:So wait, so where did it all start out for you?
Marc:I mean, where'd you grow up?
Marc:I grew up in Stone Mountain, Georgia.
Marc:But I was born, actually, out here.
Marc:My dad was in the Air Force.
Marc:So Stone Mountain, Georgia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you grew up there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were born here.
Marc:Your dad was stationed out here.
Marc:We're in San Diego.
Guest:He was stationed at Edwards Air Force Base, which is, I guess, like out by Mojave.
Guest:And then we moved to Atlanta because it was cheaper.
Guest:And then we moved to Stone Mountain.
Guest:How far is that from Atlanta?
Guest:Stone Mountain is like south eats.
Guest:Do you know what Stone Mountain is?
Marc:I keep going to Cold Stone Creamery in my mind.
Marc:That has nothing to do with it.
Guest:Stone Mountain is this big piece.
Guest:It's a pimple on the ass of the earth.
Guest:It's this big granite hump.
Guest:There's no mountains in Georgia.
Guest:Oh, so it's an actual landmark.
Guest:It's an actual big granite hump.
Guest:It's the only thing like it for some reason.
Guest:They think a glacier made it.
Marc:One piece of granite, so it's a giant rock.
Guest:big like it's a mountain and people travel to it and they're like well they they carve the confederate leaders into the side well that must have been a fun thing it's the second this is the second it's the second like rising of the kkk that's where it is that's what it's famous for they when the kkk restarted they did it on top of that mountain and there's a confederate leaders on the side and they have a laser show where they come to life at night during the summer come on that sounds like bullshit who is it like stonewall jackson stonewall jackson not i always get robert e lee and the other one confused the
Marc:No, Robert E. Lee was Confederate.
Guest:U.S.
Guest:Grant was him.
Marc:So it's Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.
Marc:And some dude that wasn't as important.
Guest:That people are just like, oh.
Marc:But they needed another one.
Marc:They can't just have two up there.
Marc:Another dude who wanted to keep people slaves.
Marc:One of them.
Guest:It was rough in the summer, though.
Guest:That place is not good.
Guest:In terms of the visitors?
Guest:yeah I mean like we would go there as kids I mean like because you go there as kids you want to see a laser show because the first half of the laser show is like you know like a cat chasing a mouse and like that don't impress me much like it's like country and it's like oh good good and then they do the confederate shit and then it gets real as like a young black like we got like beer cans thrown at us and shit
Guest:like it was who who let you do this i mean like did your parents say let's go to the laser show not knowing that eventually it would turn into some sort of racist rally well my parents were very into my mom mostly was like into like fuck them oh so kind of like yeah she was like yeah like we're going where family is going that's right we she did that with it we did that all the time like in georgia yeah like it was like lennox mall which is not like not like stone mountain where it's like racist it's not but it was just like the white you know it's the white mall
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's the black mall and the white mall.
Guest:Oh, there is a black mall?
Guest:Yeah, there's a black mall.
Guest:There's a black mall here.
Guest:Were you telling me where the black mall is?
Guest:The black mall, it's right off of Crenshaw.
Guest:It was over there.
Guest:What's it called?
Guest:Damn, it's like the black mall.
Guest:You know what I'm talking about.
Marc:I do know what you're talking about, but I'm trying to picture the differences because I don't know that I've ever noticed
Marc:whether or not I was in a black mall or not.
Marc:Oh, you know.
Marc:You definitely know.
Marc:You're not going to be like, oh.
Marc:Malls are all shitty to me.
Marc:They're all shitty.
Marc:Yeah, there's good malls and there's the rest of them.
Guest:It's like porn.
Guest:Most porn is pretty shitty, but you know the difference when you see black shitty porn and white shitty porn.
Guest:Yeah, I do know the difference.
Marc:so okay so then so that's how you grew up with it with uh with a mom who was like fuck them let's uh you know we they we don't need to be treated like this yeah it was just like was did you feel a lot of racism though yeah i mean i i have to assume like that's a stupid question there's a confederate mountain looming at you with the confederate leaders a kkk laser show and i'm like asking like so what was it difficult down there as a black guy i don't
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:I mean, I was always the kind of kid.
Guest:I don't like talking.
Guest:It's funny, because I never really liked talking about race.
Guest:I was always the type of person who didn't want to get into it.
Guest:I was just like, oh, let's just keep it.
Guest:The older I got and the more shit I started doing, music-wise and comedy-wise, it became a thing.
Guest:I never wanted to have stand-up be about race, but most of my stand-up is about race.
Marc:A thing in the sense that do you feel like it was put upon you or a responsibility or just said that was the mold that had been laid out?
Guest:Or it was important to you?
Guest:It became very important to me.
Guest:And my friend was like, the more you try to pretend, the more you try and make it not a thing,
Guest:it becomes a thing.
Guest:You start to notice more and more, I think.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I always tried to just be like, oh, you know, I always didn't like Comic View.
Guest:I never liked that shit.
Guest:I never wanted to be like, you know, black people do this, white people.
Guest:I hate that shit.
Guest:I always thought it was really lame.
Guest:But I was like, oh, no, the jokes are just lame.
Guest:Like the premise of just like the idea of just like there's this separate thing going on that people don't really notice is like when you watch Chappelle and shit like that, you're like, oh, yeah, he really notices the things.
Guest:It's like, yeah, I can't.
Guest:That feeling of, oh, if I'm dating a white chick, I got to make sure she gets home because I'm going to jail.
Guest:Is it true to God?
Guest:Like people think I...
Guest:I see this online too.
Guest:People thought I stole that joke, which is funny because they were like, Patrice O'Neal, you stole that joke from Patrice O'Neal too.
Guest:I was like, no, that's just something black dudes worry about.
Guest:I legit, if I'm dating a white chick, I make sure she gets home.
Marc:Just because in your mind you're suspect.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Marc:Because on some level culturally it's reinforced.
Marc:I feel, yeah.
Marc:I mean, I definitely am terrified of that.
Marc:Have you dealt with that kind of suspicion before in reality?
Marc:Yeah, I've had, especially in Stone Mountain.
Marc:I mean, how old were you?
Marc:You grew up, you went to high school there and everything?
Guest:Yeah, everything.
Guest:Everything was there.
Marc:So how long did your old man stay in the military?
Marc:He wasn't there that long.
Guest:I guess when I was about six, he was out of it.
Guest:And what, you got brothers and sisters?
Guest:Yeah, I got a ton.
Yeah.
Guest:My parents were foster parents and we also had adopted kids and my mom ran a daycare.
Guest:So you were?
Guest:I'm the oldest.
Guest:You're the oldest of how many kids?
Guest:Six.
Guest:Of biological sibs?
Guest:No, it's me and my brother and my sister.
Guest:We were all biological and then we adopted a brother and a sister.
Guest:And we have another girl but she wasn't adopted but she had been with us forever.
Guest:Like a stray?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they call foster kids, but you know what?
Marc:Yeah, pretty much a straight.
Marc:You made it sound like, well, she showed up at the house.
Marc:We started feeding her.
Marc:That's not that different.
Marc:My mom loves doing that.
Marc:She can't say no.
Marc:She can't say no to kids.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you ended up with a household and you had a daycare.
Guest:Yeah, there was a daycare in the garage, so there was like 13 kids.
Guest:Like a legal daycare?
Guest:I mean, it was illegal for a while, then she got permits and stuff like that, and then my cousins would come over for you.
Guest:Kids of every type, every color, every type, kids, every fucked up background you can think of.
Guest:Were a lot of them troubled kids?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, troubled kids, we had kids with HIV when no one knew what HIV was.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your mom, was she connected to the state so they would, you know, she was like in a sense that they would find her and she would volunteer to have these kids and take care of them?
Guest:Well, my parents were like the head of the Foster Parent Association for a while.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So they got like the special cases.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like if a kid, like when we had a girl,
Guest:who a little girl who was like her father was in a drug game and like the gang just came in and just killed her mom and dad in front of her and it was like all over the news and stuff and like that night it was like here you go good luck with everything yeah it was the big cases usually came to us so I saw a lot of fucked up shit wow
Guest:So how old were you when that was going on?
Guest:I was about, I guess, like eight to 14, 15.
Marc:So were you part of the caregiving thing?
Guest:I guess you couldn't help it.
Guest:I was, but I gotta be honest, I did not want to be.
Guest:It's hard as a kid, I feel like, to not be selfish.
Guest:It's hard as a grown-up.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:And we were...
Guest:I mean, and I've talked about this before.
Guest:We were fucking, we were Jehovah Witness.
Guest:We were raised Jehovah Witness.
Guest:You were Jehovah's Witnesses too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you had to make those rounds?
Guest:Well, yeah, I was not.
Guest:You didn't have to go out with the watchtowers?
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:My mom does that now.
Guest:She found religion again.
Guest:So my little brothers and sisters are like, help us.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:They're trekking around, knocking on doors.
Guest:Knocking on doors.
Marc:Hi, can we talk to you in a few minutes?
Guest:But isn't that like there's no dancing and shit too, right?
Guest:It's a bunch of shit you can't do.
Guest:You can't watch boxing.
Guest:You can't watch really anything.
Guest:Anything worldly is the worldly you can't really do.
Guest:It's an evil place.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you grew up with that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you grew up in a house where you couldn't watch boxing, you couldn't dance, you couldn't do anything fun.
Marc:You can't have a girlfriend.
Marc:No girlfriends.
Marc:No girlfriends.
Marc:So you were just distracted.
Marc:You just had a house full of kids who was constantly shit and feeding and crying and breaking up fights.
Marc:Comedy.
Marc:Trying to find one.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing.
Guest:I mean, that's the way it works.
Guest:When people say don't do it, that's what you start to do.
Guest:I wasn't around to watch The Simpsons, so I recorded every Simpsons episode.
Guest:I had a talk voice, so I would audio record it and listen to it in my bed.
Guest:And everything my mom told me not to do, I ended up doing.
Marc:So you couldn't watch him, so you actually would listen to him?
Guest:I would listen to him.
Guest:Where did you record him?
Guest:When she wasn't watching?
Guest:I would turn on the TV and make it really low when she was upstairs, and then put the microphone up to it and just leave it there.
Guest:And then I'd be doing homework, and she'd be like, oh, he's doing homework, when actually I was recording The Simpsons.
Guest:How old were you when that was happening?
Guest:I guess I was like, I don't know, like 10, maybe 9.
Marc:Now, what was the trajectory that carried you when you graduated high school?
Marc:I mean, when did you start realizing that you were gonna manifest your talents?
Marc:I went to a former arts high school.
Guest:My parents really wanted me to go to that.
Guest:So that's not Jehovah's Witnesses.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:My parents weren't good Jehovah Witnesses until lately.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think kids make it really hard to be religious.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because you don't really.
Guest:You got to deal with them going, why?
Guest:Yeah, why not?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Why?
Guest:You know, because it really does fuck up a lot of things.
Guest:Including marriages in general.
Guest:But I guess... Your folks are still married though, right?
Guest:They are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think for a while it didn't look like they were going to be.
Guest:Soldiered through?
Guest:They soldiered through.
Guest:I mean, I think there's a certain point where you find love again, but for a while, I think there's a lull in every marriage or relationship where you're like, let's just stay together because it's a lot easier.
Marc:Yeah, no, I find that happens with anybody.
Marc:It seems monogamy is like relatively difficult.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because what if you grow different?
Marc:What if you get tired of each other?
Marc:You know, I mean, I've been through two marriages, but I, you know, one where I got tired of somebody and then the other was she got tired of me.
Marc:Do you think people are, you've probably been asked this before, but do you think people are supposed to be together?
Marc:Well, I don't know if they're supposed to be, it's just like there's something about commitment and loyalty and trust and that if you can, you know, the real problem with it in the long run is it's like eventually you'll get to a point
Marc:And you'll go, Jesus, man, life is short.
Marc:Is this what I want for the rest of it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's like that's the sad part.
Marc:I mean, when you're younger, you're like, I don't give a fuck.
Marc:Yeah, we'll hang out.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:But but at some point, if you get to that place where you're like, oh, no, you know, this is the way this is going to go.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It doesn't look like it's going to change much one way or the other.
Marc:And I don't want to, you know, I don't have much life.
Marc:So I want to live.
Marc:But a lot of people don't get to that point because they're like, feed the kid.
Marc:Where is he?
Marc:Where do we got to be at nine?
Guest:Your life is about something else when you have a kid.
Guest:That's why I rap about it a lot and I joke about it because I just don't...
Guest:I saw 16 year olds have kids and it just ruins everything.
Guest:I'm not against kids.
Guest:It ruined my parents' marriage for a little bit because you're worried about other shit.
Guest:You gotta worry about these kids.
Guest:That's my biggest fear.
Guest:You didn't have any siblings that got pregnant young?
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:I think we're all terrified.
Guest:In the foster kids and everything else?
Guest:Yeah, all our foster kids, all their parents are five years older.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:So that was a good lesson to learn.
Guest:No, I learned that real quick.
Guest:Kids will fuck up your life.
Guest:They will fuck up everything.
Guest:They're the worst.
Guest:They are.
Guest:They just fuck up everything, man.
Marc:So that's the one thing you brought out of being brought up in a daycare slash foster home was that use condoms.
Guest:Yeah, immediately.
Guest:If you really want to get your kid to be safe and not have sex and shit like that, bring them to a foster home.
Guest:Bring them to a foster home.
Guest:Seriously, kids are awful.
Guest:We had kids, just weird ideas.
Guest:I'm just like, what happened to you?
Guest:I had a kid one night.
Guest:There was a one night a kid came in and he was just like there for like a night and he just like, we were laying there and like in the bunk beds and he just goes like, he goes, hey.
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:He was like, let's rub butts.
Guest:And I'm like, I guess I'm like, I don't know, six?
Guest:And I just didn't know what that meant.
Guest:It wasn't like a scared thing.
Guest:You're just like, as a kid, your brain is so open to new ideas because everything seems fucked up at that point.
Guest:You're like, oh, the sun comes out every day.
Guest:Okay, that's a new idea, but whatever.
Guest:And I was just like,
Guest:I don't know what that means.
Guest:He's like, yeah, let's rub butts.
Guest:And I found out later, I was like, oh, he was molested.
Guest:That's why he did that.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and I was like, oh, but at the time, we're just like, okay.
Marc:He just thought that was a way to communicate.
Guest:Yeah, that was just something you did at night.
Guest:Oh, you rub butts.
Guest:You rub butts and communicate at night.
Marc:Yeah, it doesn't sound like that molester was very inspired either.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Maybe he was trying to work it up.
Guest:Maybe they thwarted him before you got to.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:All I did was the butt rub.
Marc:Yeah, he was just at phase one.
Marc:Phase one of the molesting.
Marc:That's horrible.
Marc:Poor kid.
Marc:I know.
Marc:So you dealt with the sexually abused kids and everything, huh?
Marc:Man, I saw everything.
Marc:It was amazing.
Marc:When you went to Performance Arts High School, where was that?
Marc:That was in Stone Mountain.
Marc:Now, what was the racial breakdown of the area?
Marc:I mean, was it half and half or what?
Guest:Atlanta in general is mostly black.
Guest:So it's close to Atlanta?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, Atlanta.
Guest:It's a suburb?
Guest:The suburbs of Atlanta.
Guest:I know Atlanta, yeah.
Guest:It's like 66% black.
Marc:So when you went to performance art high school in Atlanta, what was it like?
Marc:It was mostly black.
Marc:Was it like fame?
Guest:It was mostly black?
Guest:It was mostly black, which was interesting because it was in kind of like a white neighborhood.
Guest:But yeah, it was mostly black.
Guest:Most of the kids were there.
Guest:It wasn't like fame.
Guest:It was just mostly like a lot of black males having to pretend they're straight.
Guest:It was like, oh, it's good that they have a haven.
Guest:You can't be black and a male and gay in Atlanta.
Guest:Anywhere, hardly, but definitely not in Atlanta.
Guest:It was rough.
Guest:yeah yeah well so so were they were all in your mind they were just closeted and comfortable because they could act the way they felt well they were you know it was just like the i think it was like the only place where you could meet another black black gay oh shit and be okay like it's just like because the the black community in atlanta is so tied to church right that uh you
Guest:you can't be gay there so it's like where you think that the community was like you know well he seems a little effeminate let's get him over now i think it's usually like the i don't know i feel like that's what you know the down low right yeah i that's like i mean i don't yeah yeah i know it but i mean i'm not living it yeah oh okay then i don't have any questions
Guest:I don't have a question.
Guest:Right, so the down low plays into this.
Guest:It's huge in Atlanta.
Guest:That's why they have such a high HIV rate there is because gay dudes there just don't say they're gay.
Guest:They're just like, oh, yeah, I'm not gay.
Guest:I just fuck dudes.
Guest:And I do it unprotected because it's not gay.
Guest:Yeah, it's a different world.
Guest:It's a different world.
Marc:That's Planet Fuck Dudes.
Guest:Yeah, so it's actually good that they're able to go to form it, because at least they're able to say I'm gay, and then they can take the proper steps as opposed to, but I don't think that's why the people push.
Guest:I think they were just like, oh, he's really good in this play.
Guest:He's got a talent.
Guest:What were you doing over there?
Guest:I mean, was there a point, were you ever on the precipice?
Guest:Of that, there was a point where I thought I was gay.
Guest:Only because people kept saying I was.
Guest:I always liked girls.
Guest:I was always like, oh man, I jerked off so much to White Palace, that movie with Susan Sarandon.
Guest:Oh man, that was my thing in Tony Braxton videos.
Guest:And I always liked girls, but it was just like- Susan Sarandon and Tony Braxton.
Guest:Yeah, that was it.
Guest:That was good.
Guest:Those were good, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I still do Susan Sarandon.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:She's so gorgeous.
Guest:I think you might have a shot.
Guest:Yeah, she just gets a divorce.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Reach out.
Guest:No, but I did because it was just like if you're, first of all, as a black male, if you like anything that's not like considered like quote unquote like street or hood, like someone's like, what's wrong?
Guest:But also I was taking ballet, because they forced you to take ballet in those class, and I was just surrounded by other gay dudes.
Guest:And people were just like, oh yeah, you're gay, you're gay, you're gay.
Guest:And also the thing was, everybody was okay with it there.
Guest:Everybody was like, it's okay, you're not ready to come out yet?
Guest:So I was like, maybe I am.
Guest:So I like thought about it for a long time and then, but I just, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's very funny.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:But it's very funny that, that cause gay dudes, you know, sometimes, I mean, I don't want to generalize, but if they, you know, if they, they, they, they will say that to you, especially if they're, if you're around a lot of them, it's like, Oh, you're just, you're just waiting.
Marc:You're not ready yet.
Marc:If you need help, you know, let me know.
Guest:What was the curriculum like?
Guest:It was basically the same curriculum, but instead of the extracurricular and the PE, like physical, they would replace that with dance and whatever else you wanted.
Guest:So dance and art.
Guest:Were you into it?
Guest:I...
Guest:I wasn't initially.
Guest:I was supposed to go to this gifted school that my parents went, but I couldn't get in because it was already filled.
Guest:So they were like, we don't want you going to the neighborhood school because it was shitty.
Guest:So you'll go to this one, which was in a better neighborhood.
Guest:And I didn't like it.
Guest:I was getting picked on already where I was.
Guest:For what?
Guest:For being like just, you know, people just call me.
Guest:I was just a weird black kid.
Guest:Not even a black kid.
Guest:Like if I was white, it would have been fine.
Guest:But I was black and liked corn.
Guest:So kids just like picked on me.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Black kids?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, so that was the situation.
Guest:But white kids too.
Guest:It's just like, what's wrong with you?
Marc:Did you ever come up against that situation where black kids were sort of like, why are you acting like that?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:That was my whole existence.
Marc:I felt like... What were the primary, outside of corn, what were the other criticisms?
Guest:Well, just like, you know, the obvious, like, why do you talk white?
Guest:You don't have an accent.
Guest:My parents were like that.
Guest:Your parents said that to you?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah, my parents kind of go, what's wrong with you?
Guest:Eat your chicken.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:No, my parents are from the north, so they didn't have a southern accent.
Guest:But also they were very straight.
Guest:They didn't adopt, I guess, what some people consider the black experience or culture.
Guest:So they just talked, I guess, like white, quote unquote.
Guest:And I was always like, why you talk white?
Guest:Why do you dress white?
Guest:I wouldn't have dressed that way, but my parents, they'd just take you to JCPenney Outlet and just be like, this is what you're wearing.
Guest:And we were Jehovah Witness.
Guest:So I wasn't exposed to, I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of things that I guess were connected to black culture.
Guest:So I'm just all, I was just really messed up.
Guest:So you just took your mom's word for it?
Guest:Yeah, I just took my mom's word.
Marc:Just wear this general clothing.
Marc:There'll be no baggy pants for you.
Marc:Wear this Arizona jeans.
Marc:Oh, that's hilarious.
Marc:So you were not even tapped in throughout most of your adolescence to black culture to even have something to judge it against.
Marc:No, yeah.
Marc:I didn't know.
Marc:You couldn't watch fucking TV?
Marc:No.
Guest:I wasn't alone.
Marc:That is fucking insane.
Marc:It was probably life-saving.
Marc:In some weird way.
Marc:Because when I see you, when I watch Community, which I love and I think you're hilarious on, and even just watching you perform music for a few minutes, you have a very sort of unfiltered talent thing going on.
Marc:It's not hinged to black.
Marc:It's not hinged to something I've seen before.
Marc:You're just kind of electric and you can sort of bring yourself to everything.
Marc:And I think that a lot of that might be attributed to the fact that you weren't cluttered.
Marc:I mean, there's something about not being cluttered with pop culture for your entire adolescence that may have enabled you to find this broader identity.
Guest:I think it was, it was probably a lot to do with that, but also like my dad was such a weirdo.
Guest:My dad is like, I guess like the original black nerd.
Guest:Like he's just like, when we were kids, like all he would do was blast prints and craft work.
Guest:And Funkadelic, that was it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:So, like, I would love that.
Guest:Prince, Kraftwerk, and Funkadelic.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Funkadelic was, like, his thing, like, his escape.
Marc:Because he, it's weird.
Marc:Kraftwerk is really the one, you know, one of these things is not like the other.
Marc:But if you kind of think about it, you know, Funkadelic and Kraftwerk, not that far.
Guest:Not that, no.
Guest:They use the same synth sounds.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But he had the same thing as me.
Guest:It was this weird thing where everybody was just calling him a faggot all the time, but because he liked Kraftwerk as a black dude.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Black dudes call each other faggots when they're in their 40s, too?
Guest:Yes, which is fucked up, right?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Yes, they do.
Guest:But for weird reasons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like Kraftwerk.
Guest:I feel like you have to work extra hard as a white dude to be called a faggot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It depends where you're at.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:That's true.
Guest:You're in Boston.
Guest:He's like, what?
Guest:You like hot dogs?
Guest:What are you, a faggot?
Marc:Yeah, there's always going to be the group of dudes that calls you a faggot.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:Whoever, you know.
Guest:It depends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I wasn't, my dad would expose me to that stuff, but also I wasn't, I loved like the Muppets, which I was allowed to see, and Looney Tunes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Like, so cartoons and shit.
Marc:When did you start realizing you were funny?
Marc:After ballet, I mean, at some point in the middle of ballet class, did you realize this is ridiculous?
Guest:This is ridiculous.
Guest:No, I guess I was...
Guest:Like seventh grade was a really bad year for me.
Guest:I was getting picked on a lot.
Guest:That was the year right before I went to the performing arts high school.
Guest:So I was still in my neighborhood school.
Guest:And I got picked on a lot and I was really trying to fit in because I just hated going to school.
Guest:Sometimes I would pretend to be sick and stuff.
Guest:I just hated it.
Guest:And towards the end of that year, I realized, because I had nothing.
Guest:Because a lot of being a high school kid is just identifying the music you're into and the TV you're watching, stuff like that.
Guest:Because kids were talking about living color.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, did you see that sketch?
Guest:And I used to pretend like, oh yeah, that was really funny.
Guest:And then they'd be like, you didn't see it.
Guest:You have to have a witness, you know, like that.
Guest:So I realized, oh, they're always talking about that, maybe if I'm funny.
Guest:So towards the end of seventh grade, I started...
Guest:being funny like on your own on my own just to protect yourself protect myself and it worked and that's what happened and then like when I went to the performing arts high school I was already like being funny I started writing plays like short plays like I would read like short plays and I and I realized later oh those were just sketches right but yeah that's when it started happening
Marc:That's fucking profoundly interesting to me that like all these kids were so tapped into, you know, what the comedy culture of the time was and talking about this and you couldn't engage.
Marc:So you're like, well, maybe if I just get funny, I'll get my own attention.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, and it was like that at home, too.
Marc:Was that a conscious thing or is that just something you figured out in retrospect?
Guest:No, it was conscious.
Guest:Because I wanted attention also from my parents.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But they were always giving attention to the kids.
Guest:We had a thousand kids.
Guest:HIV kids.
Guest:Like a kid who was molested.
Marc:It's like, oh, he kind of needs the attention a little bit more.
Marc:Oh, that's kind of interesting.
Marc:Like you were put in the second...
Marc:You were a second stringer because you had these charity kids all over the place.
Guest:And they got a bunch of shit, too.
Guest:They would get gifts for Christmas and stuff from the state, and we were Jehovah Witness, so we didn't get anything.
Guest:So it just seemed like a layer upon layer of them getting everything and me not getting anything.
Marc:Oh, that's horrible to be put in a position to actually be resentful of HIV kids.
Guest:Of HIV kids.
Guest:Yeah, I'm tired of these fucking kids.
Guest:Or just like you're sitting there like, I wish I had fucking HIV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I could get a Power Ranger.
Guest:Yeah, these AIDS babies are taking my food.
Marc:These AIDS babies really got it made.
Marc:Oh, that's fucking horrendous.
Guest:Really got it made.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I find this all fascinating, because I was one of those people, when I first started seeing you around, I couldn't tell whether or not you were, because I know you're doing stand-up, but it didn't seem like that was the first thing you did.
Marc:I mean, you're good stand-up, but it seemed like... It wasn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had just, I started...
Guest:Literally, the stand-up thing started because we were doing improv, and we were doing sketch, and then I moved to Long Island City in New York, and there was a place called The Creek in a Cave that was down the street, and I met the owner, Rebecca, and she was like, I like your Derek stuff.
Guest:If you want to do anything here, we have a stage.
Guest:And I was like, you know, who gets- What's the Derek stuff?
Guest:Derek was like, Derek comedy was like sketch comedy that had gotten- All right, well, let's get back from, let's get to there, from the performance arts, so you graduate.
Guest:I graduate.
Marc:And then you moved to New York.
Marc:Moved to New York.
Marc:I was like, I gotta get the fuck out of here.
Marc:But was your agenda like, you know, I'm going to fucking be on SNL.
Marc:What was the agenda?
Guest:I wanted, I always wanted to do, I actually went to NYU for playwriting.
Guest:Oh, so you went to NYU.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm going to go playwriting.
Guest:I got like a scholarship for the first year, and I was like, I'll figure it out for the second year.
Marc:You got a scholarship from the performance art high school?
Guest:For the work you did?
Guest:I got one, I wrote an essay, I got a couple.
Marc:What was the essay on?
Guest:The essay was on...
Guest:I think it was like a Coca-Cola.
Guest:I had to write about Coca-Cola in the arts or something.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was something.
Guest:Why that?
Guest:How did you get it?
Guest:Because Coca-Cola is from Atlanta.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they just give money to- Oh, so it was a Coca-Cola scholarship?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was something like that.
Guest:I'm trying to remember what scholarship, but it wasn't a lot of money.
Marc:But NYU- But Coca-Cola gave you some money?
Marc:Some money.
Guest:Oh, that's all right.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:I wrote an essay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I just wanted to get out of Atlanta, and I was like, oh, I'll be a playwright, because it was one of those things that a lot of people weren't doing, and they give you more money, because no one's doing it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We've got a few slots open.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So no one's doing playwriting, so they'll give you a lot of money to do.
Marc:And you hadn't written plays, really?
Guest:I had written plays in high school.
Marc:But those were sketches we decided.
Guest:Yeah, they were like five-minute plays about dudes.
Marc:So you get into the playwriting program at NYU as an undergrad.
Guest:As an undergrad.
Guest:And then somebody was like,
Guest:I literally was like, I was walking down the hall and someone was like, hey, you should audition for this Hammercast thing.
Guest:The auditions are happening right now, which is a sketch group that was starting at NYU.
Guest:And I was like, you know, I was starved for friendships.
Guest:I was like, yeah, I'll do it with you.
Guest:And I auditioned and I got in.
Marc:And who was in that?
Marc:Anyone we know?
Guest:D.C.
Guest:Pearson, who was in Derek Comedy.
Guest:And you did the movie with him.
Guest:Yeah, and Dominic Dirkus, they were in it.
Guest:That's where we all met together.
Guest:In Aubrey Plaza?
Guest:Aubrey Plaza was in the film department at Tisch.
Guest:We actually didn't know each other until later, but Dan Ekman, who directed the film, was in classes with her and knew her.
Marc:Now, did you write any full-length plays?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wrote a really weird one.
Guest:Actually, that was my thesis project.
Guest:Who were your guys?
Guest:Playwrights.
Guest:I like Tom Stopper, but everybody does.
Guest:Tom Stopper, David Ives.
Guest:Oh, the guy who wrote Fences.
Guest:August Wilson.
Guest:Yeah, and Edward Albee.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I liked him.
Marc:So you were in it.
Marc:You were going to plays.
Guest:I was like, yeah, I'm going to be a playwright.
Guest:I'm going to plays.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you saw a lot of shitty plays.
Guest:I saw a lot of shit.
Marc:I was fascinated with playwriting, you know, when I was, I wrote a play when I was in college.
Marc:I used to love Sam Shepard, and it always struck me, like, playwriting seemed like this free zone.
Marc:That, like, I mean, there was a context to it, but you could do some pretty wild shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was your play about, your thesis project?
Guest:Mine was based on a story that somebody had told me about Salvador Dali.
Guest:was that Salvador Dali had a brother who was born before him who died.
Guest:And then Salvador Dali was born, and he looked just like him.
Guest:So his parents were like, it's the same kid.
Guest:So he grew up with this idea.
Guest:His parents would dress him the same and be like, you can't die.
Guest:We already had you.
Guest:You can't die.
Guest:So he grew up with this idea of can't die.
Guest:So I wrote this kind of horror play where there was a lynching that happened in this southern...
Guest:thing and the boys the boys father put a curse on everybody in the town right so that the mothers would have these son these sons that would die when they were eight and they would get pregnant again and they would just keep having kids so like they were like 60 70 year old women having sons wow they would die every time they were eight did you did you put it up yeah it was well it was red they had a reading you never produced never produced it
Guest:Because I was kind of over playwriting at that point.
Guest:I just had to do it.
Marc:Well, it sounds like a pretty heady, heavy, interesting play.
Marc:Maybe now with your celebrity and success, it's time to put that play up.
Guest:It's kind of, I mean, it's not great.
Guest:What was it called?
Guest:I don't even remember.
Marc:I don't even remember.
Marc:Like, I just, I mean, I liked the play.
Marc:Well, that's like one of those things, like, that sounds like a play.
Marc:I mean, what are you going to do with that?
Marc:I mean, it'd be an interesting movie.
Marc:It almost sounds like a morality play or a story of some kind that's supposed to have some kind of...
Marc:meaning yeah yeah but that's the thing that everything in colleges I think when you make it it's just kind of like it feels like it should be a thing but it's not it's just like oh I followed this homeless dude around for a year what is it about I don't know but it feels heavy right you know but I'm not sure that that that's not the reality of it I think that a lot of people are just full of shit and some people get lucky and they you know all the stars align right and he's a genius
Marc:And if you ask them, like, well, why'd you write that?
Marc:Like, I don't know.
Marc:It was fucking weird.
Marc:They don't say that.
Marc:They said, well, if you really look at the culture at that time, we were dealing with these schisms.
Marc:Whatever.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:I mean, I wanted to, with the play.
Guest:It wasn't funny, though.
Guest:There were some parts of it that got laughs because I really was getting more in tune with comedy.
Marc:Like when a 70-year-old woman is like, not another one.
Guest:He was like, yeah, there's one part where he goes, here we go again.
Guest:And he looks right into the play camera.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, I just wanted to do weird stuff, but it worked out, I guess.
Marc:A lot of times you do that for attention, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do a lot of shit attention.
Marc:I mean, we all do, especially when you're arty.
Marc:You're like, I don't know what it means.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:It's hard to do weird shit now.
Marc:Yeah, because usually it has to be funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or else it's not going to.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:No one's going to buy that bullshit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:So, okay, so when you joined the sketch group, that's when you just started focusing on comedy?
Guest:Yeah, I joined the sketch group, and then I wrote, I think the turning point was I wrote something called Black Peter Pan.
Guest:And I remember thinking, this isn't gonna do well, but I just thought it was kinda weird and funny.
Guest:And it was just like the idea of just like black Peter, like Peter Pan came in.
Guest:Wow, now it's weird.
Guest:I haven't thought about it in a long time.
Guest:It's like, there's a lot of parallels to the black Spider-Man thing.
Guest:But like he came in and immediately like they're judging him.
Guest:They're like, how did you get in our house?
Guest:What do you do?
Guest:Like immediately, like it just changes everything.
Guest:The kids are nervous.
Guest:Yeah, the kids are nervous.
Guest:Like they're like, oh.
Guest:I don't remember like it was just like this whole thing of like, yeah, if Peter Pan was black, would you really trust him as much?
Guest:And like.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:So I wrote that and that changed everything because like people were like, oh, this is really funny.
Guest:I could see this on SNL.
Guest:And like I was like, oh, you can get paid to do comedy.
Guest:Like that was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I never thought of that.
Guest:So, yeah, that was the turning point.
Guest:And did you, how did things change for you then?
Guest:I just started doing it like a ton.
Guest:Like I went home and wrote every night.
Guest:Like I was like obsessed with it.
Guest:And then I just, I ended up like directing the sketch group.
Guest:And then we started making videos, me, Dominic DC and Meggie and Dan Ekman.
Guest:And we started making Derek videos on YouTube and those got really popular.
Guest:And then from that, indirectly I got the job on 30 Rock.
Guest:And that's how it became right.
Marc:That's interesting, because the only other person I talked to that had that same thing was Aubrey.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, there was this weird moment in entertainment history where everyone thought it was all going to the internet.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And people were spending money on the internet, and that didn't necessarily pan out, but in that moment, you know, casting people and agents said, well, who's that guy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Is that what happened?
Guest:That's, I mean...
Guest:I was doing a lot of stuff on my own, and we were on YouTube and stuff like that, so a lot of people were paying attention.
Guest:It was weird.
Guest:Everybody had this kind of like...
Guest:I don't know, that's kind of weird.
Guest:And I'm finding a lot of, this is happening with my music career, too, where they're like, there's something there, but we don't want to touch it until someone else wants to touch it.
Guest:Well, yeah, no one wants to take the blame.
Guest:No one wants to take, no one wants to put their dick on them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I get it, it's fair.
Guest:For you to really push somebody, you have to really, that's why I give Tina Fey all this credit.
Guest:She hired me, and she did not have it.
Guest:How did that come about, though?
Guest:I mean, she saw what you were doing on YouTube?
Guest:Owen Burke was my teacher at UCB.
Guest:Owen Burke told Amy Poehler that I was like, oh, this guy's writing, and I heard you're looking for a writer to do the grapevine.
Guest:And then Amy Poehler told Tina, yeah, this kid is writing.
Guest:And I think it was also, I lived in New York already, and I didn't want to have to fly anybody else out for 30 Rocks.
Marc:So you were just a writer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a writer who was already living in New York and I think was just young and was writing.
Marc:But usually writers are sort of schlumpy, mostly Jewish.
Marc:Yeah, I think maybe- And here's this bright, good-looking black kid.
Marc:There was no talk of you being in the cast immediately?
Guest:I think Tina Fey just wanted- She's really good.
Guest:I think she just knows like-
Guest:especially being at SNL was just like you know the room can't be just all Harvard dudes and Jews yeah I mean Jews I mean Jews yeah Harvard dudes and Jews yeah which sounds like a band I want to be in yeah yeah she she always was like you know she mixed it up a lot and like the guys in that room were like I think like a very diverse group so I think she just wanted more diverse how long did you write on the show three years really yeah first three
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:So you were like just a comedy writer.
Guest:Yeah, that was it.
Guest:And I was happy, man.
Guest:I was like, oh, yeah.
Guest:I wanted to be a comedy writer.
Guest:I was like, oh, I wanted to write.
Guest:And I was on this show that comedians respected.
Guest:And all these guys who were writing on Frasier and stuff, all these shows were on there.
Guest:And I was like, I'm a comedy writer.
Guest:This is what I want.
Guest:So were you doing stand-up at all yet?
Guest:I started doing stand-up the second year because I was like, oh, writing these long hours is like that.
Guest:Who got you into it?
Guest:Like Judah or somebody?
Marc:Who kind of brought you in?
Guest:I always liked watching Chris Rock and stuff like that.
Guest:And then one of the ways I got on 30 Rock was I did this Chris Rock internship at Comedy Central and I got to meet him.
Guest:And he was talking about comedy.
Guest:With all my stuff, I always liked the truth stuff.
Guest:And he was just like, yeah, he's like, if you tell the truth in a way that people aren't ready for, you'll always get a laugh.
Guest:And that stuck with me.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:Every time he talks.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:He was like, every time he talks, he was like a sermon.
Guest:I was like, that whole niggers versus black people thing.
Guest:I was like, amazing.
Guest:Like, I was like, oh yeah, that's something that everybody kind of felt.
Guest:That was a career defining bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that was the bit.
Guest:That was the bit.
Guest:And it was just like, and it was something that I think people had thought, but was just afraid to do.
Marc:Well, I think what's interesting is like the people that thought it were black people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know that that I think that was a whole new lens for white people.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, in a way.
Marc:I think that that what was really amazing about it was he was really talking about the black community almost specifically for the black community in a way.
Guest:I mean, when he did it, I was just telling somebody that when he did it, he did it like the way my aunt did it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because my aunt would always be like, these fucking niggas at the bank.
Guest:Fuck.
Guest:She would just get so mad.
Guest:It was this frustrated thing of just like, I'm trying to do something good and you're bringing me down.
Guest:And I get lumped in with you guys.
Marc:I think that was what made it a fucking amazing bit was that it was something unspoken or understood in the black community.
Marc:And I don't think that white people ever saw that struggle.
Guest:yeah within the black community and they're like holy shit you know they're sadly part of their minds is like they have problems with them too which was his thing which was made it funny right well that's he was like i wish i he's like when he does like man i wish they'd let me join the ku klux klan i was like that's such a like crazy thing to hear but you're like i get that struggle of like trying to be like we're trying to do something yeah
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:And so did he have any part in you starting to do stand-up other than inspiring you?
Marc:I mean, yeah, he just inspired me.
Marc:I mean, no one... How'd you do your first gigs, though?
Marc:Where'd you go up and, you know, who was... Creek in the Cave.
Guest:Oh, so you were just doing, like, a small... It literally was this thing of me, DC... And Dominic had done a little stand-up, but, like, we were like, we can't do...
Guest:We can't do sketches because we do them online.
Guest:And what's the point of doing them on stage?
Guest:We can't do improv.
Guest:We're already doing that UCB.
Guest:We have this stage where no one's doing anything.
Guest:Have you guys tried stand-up before?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Let's try stand-up.
Guest:And we'll host it every Sunday.
Guest:And it really forced me to do new material every Sunday because the same people would come.
Guest:And you do story style stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I just started telling stories about when I was a kid.
Guest:And it felt really freeing.
Marc:Yeah, well, I think that it's sort of fascinating, because even me, that I think everybody has a strange expectation, like you said at the beginning of the interview, out of a black comic or a black voice.
Marc:And I think that the whole black nerd thing is legitimate, and it's been around for a while, but it was a pretty small group.
Marc:Like, you know, when you talk about your dad, he was like one of the original black nerds.
Marc:I mean, because I still have a moment where I'm like, I'm sort of surprised.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you see a black nerd at a comic book convention or at the comic book store, you're like, oh, this is interesting.
Guest:They're out there, you know?
Guest:Yeah, it is a weird... And I didn't even think that was... That's the thing, like, you didn't...
Guest:I think black nerds see themselves differently until they get, like, a little older.
Guest:Like, you just kind of realize... Because, like, you're just at the... You're like, oh, I'm the only kid at the Suvion Stevens.
Guest:I'm the only black kid at the Suvion Stevens concert.
Guest:Like, and you don't really think of it.
Guest:Because, like, a lot of black nerds are around a lot of white guys.
Guest:Because, like...
Guest:Even in the improv, comedy community, improv, there are no black guys doing improv.
Guest:I'm the only black guy I see at UCB doing improv all the time.
Guest:There's one group of black guys.
Guest:But even that is like there's a group and they're all black and that's a statement.
Guest:And it sucks because they're not trying to be a statement.
Guest:It's the same thing as Obama.
Guest:No matter what he does, he'll never be just a president.
Guest:He'll be a statement.
Guest:And I think he gets that.
Guest:And I think they get that when they're doing improv.
Guest:But it's just like trying to move past that and be like, OK, now that we're past the statement of like, oh, my God, this black person watches Archer.
Guest:Like, can we do comedy now?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Well, that's the whole thing about the color line in general is that, you know, that no matter how much lip service is paid to it, you know, not that some people like I don't see, you know, black or white.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Culturally, there's no way not to, given where we come from.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And so when someone is actually acting in a way that's just like a person or just, and there's no color identity to it.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:People are like, I don't get it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like, I don't understand what's going on, which is such a weird thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's so fucking weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you deal with that a lot.
Marc:Yeah, still now.
Marc:Why do you think there's no black improv actors?
No.
Marc:Well, I mean, there's got to be some, but in a general sense.
Guest:Honestly, because there's no exposure to it.
Guest:I think a lot of people think, I think that's changing now, but a lot of people are like, oh, black people sell drugs and want to play basketball because that's in them.
Guest:And it's like, no, it's because they're poor.
Guest:All those racial things that usually come up, it's money stuff, like always.
Guest:It's always money stuff.
Guest:When people say I don't like black people,
Guest:they usually when you it's like why when they say the stuff you're like oh no you don't like poor shitty people yeah not not that poor people are shitty right but poor people who do shitty stuff right who are driven into crime yeah and driven into stuff like that like that's that's what you don't like it's like if everybody if every black person you met was will smith you're like i fucking love black people they're charming they're tall oh man they're rich like you know you that's the thing it's all about money we live in a country that doesn't talk about class ever ever which
Marc:which is weird.
Marc:In Europe, it's always about class.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's the history of their politics.
Marc:But here, it's just never discussed.
Marc:It's always race.
Marc:It's always race.
Guest:I loved going to Paris.
Guest:It was the first time they were like, oh, you're black and American?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It was American first.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:Here, it's always like, oh, black kid, black kid, black kid.
Guest:There, they were like, what are you?
Guest:Are you Egyptian?
Guest:Are you American?
Guest:I was like, I'm American.
Guest:They're like, oh, they love black Americans over there.
Marc:Yeah, without Paris.
Marc:They have a long tradition of that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:yeah jazz and everything yeah yeah i mean a lot there were uh yeah there was a lot of uh a lot of black expatriates that just you know stayed in paris so they could play music you know jazz music like there's so much of that shit there yeah there's an interesting story uh i'll show it to you after by terry southern it's funny
Marc:All right, so then what happens?
Marc:You write for three years, and how do you get the on-camera shot?
Guest:I did a couple of stand-in stuff at 30 Rock.
Guest:They were just like, oh, do this bit, do this bit, and it was fine.
Guest:I think the thing that really stood out was there was a table read where Tracy couldn't make it because he was having kidney troubles.
Guest:How'd you get along with Tracy?
Guest:I liked him a lot.
Guest:He's just, you know, he's crazy, man.
Guest:He's fucking nuts.
Guest:He's so funny, though.
Guest:And the great thing about it is I kind of like the way Tina treats him because she's old.
Guest:Tracy knows that people are like, oh, it's Tracy.
Guest:Give him a pass.
Guest:She's like, no, fuck that.
Guest:She's like, you're a grown man.
Guest:I'm going to treat you like a fucking grown man.
Guest:She would say that?
Guest:That was the attitude?
Guest:I mean, that was the attitude.
Guest:She's the most not racist person ever.
Guest:Because I feel like a lot of people...
Guest:Like, and Tracy uses this.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:Tracy's aware.
Guest:Like, he's not dumb.
Guest:He's aware.
Guest:He's like, I'm gonna act crazy and like have this whole black thing going.
Guest:And people, white people will be like, ah, like that kind of thing.
Guest:And Tina's like, fuck that.
Guest:Like, she's like, no, no, you're a grown man.
Guest:And like, you know,
Marc:I think... She's also very astute at seeing what people's strengths are.
Marc:I think she knows how to write for him.
Guest:She definitely got him.
Guest:I think him and Andrew Steele, her and Andrew Steele, got him and got his voice and understood why he was funny.
Guest:And I love Tracy.
Guest:I thought he was really good.
Guest:He does physical bits.
Guest:That whole patting the head, that thing that your mom does when she has cornrows, I would see that and be like, oh my God.
Guest:I was like, holy, that was such a language I didn't know existed.
Guest:But he does physical bits like no other, and he really got the comedy of the stuff that we were writing.
Marc:And he's not afraid to be sort of the brunt of the joke, which is, that's a powerful comedy place.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:to be able to be a little humiliated.
Marc:Yeah, he's fine with that.
Marc:Yeah, he's hilarious.
Marc:When I used to see him before he did SNL or anything, anytime he'd step into a situation, you're like, oh, now we're on Planet Tracy.
Marc:Where's this gonna go?
Marc:Because you know it's not going to end.
Marc:You're always going to lose your footing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:All right, so you did a few on-camera bits.
Guest:And I did a table read where Tracy couldn't make it.
Guest:So I stood in and I did my Tracy impression.
Guest:And Marcy Klein was there.
Marc:Marcy Klein is a producer of SNL.
Marc:Been around forever.
Guest:Yeah, and she was like, that was good.
Guest:And then she was like, you should audition for SNL.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:So I auditioned twice while I was still on 30 Rock.
Guest:And also, the film that Derek made called Mystery Team went to Sundance that year, too.
Guest:So a lot of stuff was happening for me, not writing-wise.
Guest:And the thing about 30 Rock, and writing in general, I've never seen it any other way, maybe because I've just been on shows with anal people, but you're there all the time.
Guest:I just felt like...
Guest:it takes everything out of you everything like my relation I was with this girl I thought I was going to marry that relationship went south like a lot of like people were having relationship problems like it's because you were always always at 30 rock yeah it's like being a doctor yeah there's no going home there's no going home you're on call right we sometimes we would go home and get you know called like oh we're going to meet up at Tina's you go there like late at night stay there until like 4 in the morning so like it's just it was a lot what was an emergency that needed that kind of treatment like a like a sensor had a problem or they had to rework a script or what
Guest:Usually it was just kind of like the table read went bad.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:So you had to fix it.
Guest:You had to fix it.
Guest:Sometimes start off from page one and just fix it together.
Guest:And it was just like, oh, so we're just going to have a 25-hour day.
Guest:And that would usually be it.
Guest:So all that stuff was happening while this job that is taking everything was going on.
Guest:And I kind of realized, I was like, this isn't fair.
Guest:Like this guy, Jack Bird, who wrote for the show, his...
Guest:his daughter had triplets and he was gone two days.
Guest:And I was asking for like seven days for like the Sundance thing.
Guest:And like, I was like, that's not fair.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:So around the third year, I was like, you know, I just asked, I was like, I, I, can I gracefully bow out just cause I want to do other stuff.
Marc:You said that to Tina?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said that to Tina and Robert.
Guest:I asked them if it was okay if I left and they were like, go for it.
Marc:Yeah, well, because you knew that you had a bigger talent, that you could do more than right.
Guest:I mean, I didn't know.
Guest:I just, honestly, I was just so in love with stand-up.
Guest:I just wanted to do stand-up.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I thought, I really, I was like, because we, all the, you know that mass exodus everybody made of New York to L.A.
Guest:a couple of years ago?
Marc:It happens every few years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, like, so everybody was just moving, and we were like, we should go to L.A.
Guest:too.
Guest:All the jobs are there.
Guest:And I was like, fuck it.
Guest:I'm going to fucking quit 30 Rock, and then we'll go to L.A., and I'll start doing stand-up and then auditioning.
Guest:And literally...
Guest:like two weeks after I quit, the Russo brothers had seen Mystery Team, which was the movie that went to Sundance, and they were like, oh, we might have a part for you in this community thing, so you should audition.
Guest:And I got it, yeah.
Marc:It's interesting because out of these shows,
Marc:There's certain types of shows like, you know, 30 Rock's very specific.
Marc:It's very comedy packed.
Marc:It's a show that's designed to be funny.
Marc:And the characters are relatively broad, but very grounded.
Marc:And then, you know, with community, it's a similar thing.
Marc:I've talked to Harmon, but, you know, it's all about, you know, laughs, but, you know, without, and it's not about cheap laughs, but it's about going to any extreme to get the laugh.
Marc:And hopefully that extreme is creative as possible.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you're sort of accustomed to that from coming from 30 Rock.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, were you also on the writing staff at Community?
Marc:Do you write?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I don't write on Community.
Guest:I could not write for that show.
Guest:Why?
Guest:It's fucking hard, man.
Guest:First of all, Dan Hartman is a genius.
Guest:He is, actually.
Guest:But also insane.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Insane in that he wants everything to be perfect.
Guest:And I don't know if I could live up.
Guest:I don't want to... He likes me, and I like him.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:I think...
Guest:The vision that he has is really crazy and really specific.
Guest:And I really enjoy that about people who create stuff.
Guest:And I would never want to fall out of his good graces.
Guest:That's my biggest fear.
Guest:I feel like if I wrote for that show, I wouldn't be good enough.
Marc:Well, he's one of those guys that is so fucking hard on himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he's so brilliant that everybody around him is just sort of like...
Guest:I want to make him happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want him to like, like, that's the thing.
Guest:Like I, and that's, but that gets the best stuff out of you.
Guest:Like I, I work well under that too, but it's the distress at 30 rock.
Guest:It was the same thing.
Guest:Like they all, they all run.
Guest:I think the way Lauren runs shit, which is like, I'm not going to say anything until I say something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so everybody's got this, Hey daddy, I made this.
Guest:Like, do you like it?
Guest:Like everyone's got the same.
Guest:And we were the same way with fucking Robert and Tina.
Marc:Well, what happened to those auditions at SNL?
Marc:You didn't make the cut.
Guest:no no neither time and you didn't did you go talk to lauren did you have that experience i talked to lauren yeah me and bobby moynahan who ended up getting on the show both like had the talk with lauren before you get the call like you're on all right uh the same day and what do they say to you so you're interesting you it was a lot like that yeah it was like about nothing let me look at you he's like no
Guest:It's kind of like in The Matrix where they go to see the oracle and she doesn't say much.
Guest:She's just kind of like, you want a cookie?
Guest:I like your hair.
Guest:She's doing something.
Guest:You're like, am I doing it right?
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Am I standing?
Marc:Can I make my eyes do something different?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, it certainly turned out all right for you.
Marc:Now, how did you like, because I talked to Harmon about like one of the things that really stands out.
Marc:for me on community is that relationship you have with Pudi.
Marc:That there's definitely some sort of dynamic you guys have created with each other.
Marc:Does that just, and I know he writes for you two to work off each other a lot, doesn't he?
Guest:It's almost like a comedy team dynamic.
Guest:we it's weird we get each other really well like we just he's always like I feel like we just have this kind of thing where like I know what he's gonna do you do I just do like I just know what he's gonna do and I know he's gonna react and like we kind of mess with each other while we're doing it like it's just like a fun it's just it's so fast I mean you guys are so fast I don't know why it works that way I think we have similar backgrounds in a weird way like he's like you know everybody always thought he was Indian and he speaks Polish but he's because he's half Polish he's half Polish
Guest:And you see his soccer picture.
Guest:He's the only Indian kid.
Guest:He kind of grew up the same way I did, where it's like, oh, I feel alone.
Guest:But I'm also growing up in this extremely Polish, extremely white thing as the only Indian kid.
Guest:And I think we just kind of bonded immediately of just like, oh, we're kind of the in and the out.
Guest:We always joke about how...
Guest:I was like, aren't you glad you're on the show?
Guest:He's like, yeah.
Guest:He's like, I'm on my fifth Sanjay.
Guest:Like he's like, he's played five Sanjay.
Guest:Like all the people like, oh, Indian guy, Sanjay.
Guest:He's like, I'm on my fifth Sanjay.
Guest:And I was like, do you know how hard it is for kids, for people not to like want to like in every, everything I did up until like, and I thought this was really interesting too.
Guest:Every role I've gotten thus far was always written for a white guy.
Guest:Community role.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like always.
Guest:Like, but like I never got the black roles because I just wasn't black enough.
Guest:Do you never went and blacked it up?
Guest:I couldn't do it.
Guest:There was an audition.
Guest:I don't want to say for what movie, but there was an audition that came up and the guy really liked me.
Guest:They were all excited.
Guest:Oh, you're going to be in this movie.
Guest:It was a big movie.
Guest:And I could tell what he wanted me to do for the part.
Guest:But he wasn't quite.
Guest:He was like, I'll play it like, you know, like that.
Guest:And I was just like, I know what you want me to do.
Guest:I
Guest:I can't do it.
Guest:Was it a principal thing?
Marc:A principal role?
Marc:No, was it on principal you wouldn't do it?
Marc:On personal principal?
Guest:Kind of both.
Guest:Kind of like I don't really know how to do that, but I can pretend to do it a little bit, but I feel like that wouldn't be fair.
Guest:Because then I'll just start doing that for other stuff.
Guest:You'd be typecast.
Guest:Yeah, I'd be typecast, but also I wouldn't be doing it well.
Guest:There's other black guys that do it really well and don't have to pretend.
Guest:Why fucking...
Guest:This is like, yeah.
Guest:Get a real black black guy.
Guest:Get a real black black guy.
Guest:Seriously, why have me do, why do that?
Guest:Why make fake cheese and be like, be real cheese?
Guest:Oh, that's hilarious.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:So, all right, now, okay, let's just talk briefly about this.
Marc:I know we talked about it before, but the Spider-Man thing, you sort of referenced it, but there was this grassroots campaign to make you the new Spider-Man.
Marc:Was that ever real?
Marc:Did it ever have any traction?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was scary for a moment.
Guest:But it started out of nowhere, right?
Guest:It started out of nowhere.
Guest:Somebody just forwarded me this, I think it's called io9 blog where they were like, oh, maybe Spider-Man could be a different race in this new one.
Guest:It would be kind of interesting.
Guest:And they forwarded it to me and somebody put in the comments a big picture of me.
Guest:So I tweeted it and I was like, I want to be next Spider-Man.
Guest:It's kind of like a joke, like this would be cool.
Guest:But it just, a lot of, I think it was honestly like a slow news day.
Guest:Like it just trended immediately and everybody was like really excited for some reason.
Guest:And then that following Monday, I remember I was in Canada doing press for Community, and I was getting all these phone calls, and it was on the front page of Yahoo, and the head of CAA was like, who the fuck is Donald Glover?
Guest:And I was like, shit.
Guest:And then, yeah, Sony called.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:Yeah, it was really weird for a second.
Marc:Was it ever a possibility?
Guest:I mean, the fact that we were talking to Sony, I was like, oh.
Guest:But when it got to that point, I didn't want to... That's the thing.
Guest:I wish I had had the balls to really... Honestly, when I look back, I wish I had had the balls to be like, yeah.
Guest:I'm ready.
Guest:If you don't, this will be... I'll make it a thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't want to do that.
Guest:I was just like... Because I didn't want...
Guest:I felt like it would be a statement again.
Guest:It'd be the statement that I wasn't trying.
Guest:I wasn't saying Spider-Man has to be black.
Guest:I was saying, isn't that cool?
Guest:And it's a possibility.
Guest:I wouldn't want Batman to be black.
Guest:It really wouldn't make sense to me.
Guest:It was like, oh, rich...
Guest:old rich money family being black it was kind of weird i wouldn't want thor to be black yeah but i was like spider-man makes so much sense being black yeah like he's a he's a nerdy kid and i feel like the only nerdy kids who really still get picked on are black nerdy ones or mexican like minority nerdy ones right he's in new york he's poor his parents have died yeah i felt like that was the i feel like that superhero and he's covered from head to
Guest:yeah you wouldn't know he was black you made a case in your mind yeah I was like this is all fucking makes sense you you did the black spider-man manifesto you're ready to show up at Sony I was like here's here's all the points I've done the research and so it just kind of became a thing but like man the weird backlash that came from that was just like intense I just didn't
Guest:get i was not expecting the viral element of it well the viral element but also just like the hate mail and shit like i just did not expect oh you got hate mail yeah i got like hate twitter like somebody created a twitter and like i had to block them only because like i was like he was it was so much of my thing i just didn't want to see it like you know fuck you spider-man's not black it was like spider-man's not black you fucking nigger if you take it i'll kill you if you take that role like get out
Guest:Yeah, for real.
Guest:I was like, you guys, he's made up.
Guest:It's a fictional character.
Guest:And this is all just talk.
Guest:These are just nerds talking, but literally, I'll kill you.
Marc:It's sad because it was probably a white racist nerd.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, that's the weird thing that we forget about the whole nerd culture is that there's still prejudice and weirdness.
Guest:Weirdness in this thing where the whole point of fantasy is that they're trying to get away from what we live every day.
Guest:Yeah, racist nerds.
Guest:Racist nerds.
Marc:Damn it.
Guest:I mean, but that's, it kind of brought up a whole bunch of shit where I was looking over all that stuff, like the race trading with a bunch of nerd stuff and Avatar and the Prince of Persia.
Guest:Oh yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How did it change your mind about that?
Guest:Avatar was made because the guy was like, Asians don't have a superhero.
Guest:And it became wildly popular.
Guest:And when they made the movie, all of them were white except for the villain.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was just kind of like, that's kind of weird.
Guest:And the same thing with Prince of Persia, guys playing white.
Guest:And I get it.
Guest:I think a lot of people think that black people are minorities or just in media.
Guest:That's wrong.
Guest:And they don't get it.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I understand why Sony wouldn't make a black Spider-Man.
Guest:It probably wouldn't make as much money.
Guest:If Will Smith was like, I want to be Spider-Man, they probably would have said yes.
Guest:Because...
Guest:they would have made a bunch of money.
Guest:It's all about money.
Guest:All that shit runs back to money.
Guest:It's never about really like, I hate black people just on the principle they're black.
Guest:It's usually I hate black people because they're poor.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And didn't Damon Wayans do a superhero movie?
Guest:Oh yeah, he did Blank Man, and then there was Meteor Man.
Guest:There was a whole slew of them.
Marc:And then Will did do that superhero movie.
Marc:Yeah, Hancock.
Marc:Which is actually a pretty good movie.
Guest:I liked him.
Guest:I was super stoked for it.
Guest:I was a little disappointed, but I really, because I liked the, I was so, I'm such a Will Smith fan, but also, like, I liked that director a lot.
Guest:He did Friday Night Lights, and I was so excited.
Guest:Yeah, I know that guy.
Marc:It was a little weird, but I thought the idea was so great.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I caught it, like, you know, by surprise.
Marc:Like, I didn't, like, I wasn't psyched to see it or anything, but it was on, and I watched it, and I'm like, this is better than I thought.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and I kind of knew Pete Berg when we were younger, and he does some pretty good stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So now where's the music at right now?
Marc:You do sing.
Guest:I do sing in the songs and stuff like that, and honestly, I would call it just like a black rock record.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:It's like super, like it's not...
Guest:It's not really, I guess, what people would call mainstream rap.
Guest:I feel like it's a lot about what we've been talking about.
Guest:It's a lot about race and growing up and what really, the name of the album's Camp.
Guest:And the reason I called it that, there's a lot of reasons, but one of them was just I wanted to name it something that's the farthest away from the streets, because I just can't be street.
Guest:I don't know how.
Marc:Is there a song on there called that?
Guest:I just can't be street.
Marc:I can't be street.
Marc:You've got to write that song.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I've got to do that.
Marc:And then sell it to Sesame Street.
Marc:It sounds like a kid song.
Marc:Were there any Kraftwerk samples in there?
Guest:No, no samples.
Guest:I wish I could have done it.
Guest:It's a really cheap record.
Guest:There's no samples.
Marc:Do people still do that?
Marc:They still do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But Kraftwerk, man, it's part of your roots.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I like that sound, but I don't think I can sample them.
Marc:I don't think I can do it justice.
Guest:And you had an hour on Comedy Central?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you didn't really, you haven't really recorded a comedy CD.
Marc:You did the comedy special.
Guest:Yeah, that became a CD, but I've never done a CD flat out.
Marc:Wow, that's interesting.
Marc:Do you have a following in that area?
Guest:In the music?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:I just, I guess it's because I've been doing it a while.
Guest:I've been like, oh, wow, there's an underground following.
Guest:So it does, yeah, I just got signed and it's going well.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:You're doing it your own way, buddy.
Yeah.
Marc:You didn't get to be Spider-Man, but you're certainly doing what you want to do.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you, man.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Marc:And you're doing great.
Marc:Keep it up.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:I love the show.
Marc:Thanks for having me on here.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:That was my conversation with Donald Glover.
Marc:What a sweet, intelligent, talented man he is.
Marc:And I mean that honestly.
Marc:And I hope you enjoyed that talk.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Let's see if we can... WTFPod.com, go do that.
Marc:A lot of Christmas presents.
Marc:A lot of merchy merch.
Marc:Fun stuff.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop is available there.
Marc:Get that WTF blend, and I get a little thing on the back end of that.
Marc:A little bit, a little taste.
Marc:Kicking a few shekels, get the app, do the stuff.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:All right?
Marc:Let's see.
Marc:This isn't going to happen.
Marc:Boomer!
Marc:Boomy!
Marc:Boomer, your audience awaits.
Marc:Maybe I can do the round.
Guest:It's not the same, is it?
Marc:It's weird, actually.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.