Episode 234 - Jillian Lauren

00:00:43Marc:pow woo yeah just shit my pants just coffee.coop available at wtfpod.com good for the holidays something's gonna have to get you through those holidays i am mark maron this is wtf it is finally a lovely day in los angeles i mean i'm not complaining but i did not talk to you about what happened here last thursday night

00:01:07Marc:Holy shit.

00:01:09Marc:It was almost apocalyptic in my mind because it affected me directly and it was scary.

00:01:15Marc:That translates to apocalyptic.

00:01:17Marc:The end of the world can easily equal the end of me because for most practical purposes, that means it's all over for everyone.

00:01:25Marc:As far as I'm concerned, maybe it's a selfish way to view the apocalypse, but it's more practical, isn't it?

00:01:32Marc:Less it's less mythic, less panic driven, more practical.

00:01:39Marc:Anyways, before I get into that, Jillian Lauren, my neighbor and author and wife of the bass player of Weezer is on the show.

00:01:48Marc:She's written two books or new ones out.

00:01:51Marc:Nice chat.

00:01:52Marc:Interesting.

00:01:53Marc:Member of a harem.

00:01:55Marc:Interesting past.

00:01:56Marc:Interesting books.

00:01:58Marc:So we'll talk to her in a second.

00:02:00Marc:So fuck, I got here on Monday.

00:02:02Marc:I didn't really address...

00:02:04Marc:The winds.

00:02:06Marc:I don't know who this Santa Ana woman is, but I mean, just fucking leave us alone already.

00:02:13Marc:I mean, that was nasty.

00:02:14Marc:I mean, I've been through these winds during the wind season.

00:02:17Marc:We actually have wind season.

00:02:19Marc:We don't have winter, fall, spring or summer here, really.

00:02:22Marc:We have wind, really hot and rain.

00:02:26Marc:That's it.

00:02:27Marc:We go by styles of types of precipitation, not seasons in Los Angeles.

00:02:34Marc:But these winds, I mean, I know they say it's going to get windy.

00:02:37Marc:And I think it was last Thursday.

00:02:39Marc:Last Thursday night, the wind started early in the evening.

00:02:44Marc:And I'm like, all right, this Santa Ana time gets windy.

00:02:47Marc:It gets a little intense.

00:02:49Marc:No problem.

00:02:50Marc:I get into bed with the girl.

00:02:52Marc:And then around midnight, 1230, these winds were howling.

00:02:57Marc:I have never heard winds like this before.

00:02:59Marc:I heard animals flying outside of my window.

00:03:03Marc:I didn't know what I was hearing.

00:03:04Marc:I didn't know if my house would survive.

00:03:07Marc:I didn't know what the hell was going on.

00:03:09Marc:They charted these winds at like 100 miles, less than a mile away from here.

00:03:13Marc:I guess being up on this little hill that I'm on did not help things.

00:03:16Marc:But there was shit flying around.

00:03:18Marc:It had that haunted, horrible sound of something much worse is going to happen any second.

00:03:25Marc:I couldn't believe it.

00:03:26Marc:The power was going on and off.

00:03:28Marc:It was impossible to sleep because of the howling wind was so menacing.

00:03:33Marc:I was concerned about my cat.

00:03:36Marc:I was concerned about my windows.

00:03:38Marc:I didn't know what the fuck was going on.

00:03:40Marc:I kept getting up and because what happened, like every time the power went off, the antique regular phone line I have in the living room kept resetting itself.

00:03:51Marc:With a voice like to, you know, if you want to reset the phone or whatever the fuck it was saying, noises were happening.

00:03:58Marc:The cats were freaking out and I thought it was over.

00:04:01Marc:I didn't know what the hell was going on.

00:04:03Marc:I never had any.

00:04:04Marc:I just didn't know when the power goes out and the winds are that loud.

00:04:08Marc:Part of you thinks like how how long before civilization just breaks down?

00:04:13Marc:Are people going to start looting?

00:04:15Marc:Is my car OK or has that already been taken?

00:04:18Marc:Are the neighbors?

00:04:19Marc:When do I eat my cats?

00:04:21Marc:What's going to happen?

00:04:22Marc:The power goes out was awful.

00:04:25Marc:I mean, obviously there are people that go through worse things, but this was awful because it leads to a lot of deep questions about yourself.

00:04:34Marc:Do I have water?

00:04:36Marc:Do we have candles?

00:04:37Marc:Do we have a radio that runs on batteries?

00:04:40Marc:Should I just go to my car and listen to the radio?

00:04:42Marc:Since when is the radio the all-important thing?

00:04:45Marc:I didn't have water.

00:04:47Marc:I mean, I had some in the fridge.

00:04:48Marc:I had a flashlight.

00:04:49Marc:I don't have any canned foods.

00:04:51Marc:I don't have a bunker.

00:04:52Marc:I got the garage, but it's not secured.

00:04:55Marc:If zombies or starving neighbors or whoever was going to take charge of Los Angeles wanted to get me, it wouldn't take much to to destroy the doors of my garage.

00:05:06Marc:I was paralyzed with fear.

00:05:08Marc:in a very core way.

00:05:10Marc:Because then the power was off the next day.

00:05:12Marc:You wake up, the power's off.

00:05:13Marc:When's that going to come on?

00:05:15Marc:Then you look outside, the entire, you look on the mountains around us, all the neighborhood, everywhere, dead, off.

00:05:23Marc:The tree down the street, a 100-year-old tree, I'm just estimating, it's old and big, just toppled over, just cracked and toppled over onto my neighbor Trish's yard.

00:05:34Marc:It could have been on her house.

00:05:36Marc:Across the street, a large branch of a tree dropped right on my neighbor's car.

00:05:42Marc:We all woke up to this shit.

00:05:43Marc:I wake up.

00:05:44Marc:My fence...

00:05:45Marc:Lost all its teeth.

00:05:46Marc:It was just a fucked up mouth.

00:05:48Marc:My fence, it was all over the place.

00:05:50Marc:Just destroyed.

00:05:52Marc:The tree down the hill in my yard lost an entire half of itself.

00:05:57Marc:The umbrellas out on the deck that were closed, one of them was ripped off of its thing

00:06:03Marc:This was a closed umbrella.

00:06:05Marc:It was ripped off, sucked up.

00:06:06Marc:The top of it, the thing that held it up, was unscrewed by the wind.

00:06:10Marc:Are you going to tell me?

00:06:11Marc:It felt like Los Angeles was under attack by ghosts.

00:06:16Marc:It was scary.

00:06:17Marc:Everything was fucked up.

00:06:20Marc:Shit all over the place.

00:06:21Marc:Garbage.

00:06:22Marc:Plants destroyed.

00:06:23Marc:Fences destroyed.

00:06:25Marc:Trees destroyed.

00:06:26Marc:Cars destroyed.

00:06:27Marc:What a mess.

00:06:28Marc:Then the power's off.

00:06:29Marc:What have I got?

00:06:30Marc:I got to get candles.

00:06:32Marc:All the food's going bad.

00:06:35Marc:I'm starting to wonder whether I need one of them hand crank radios.

00:06:37Marc:The power was off for two days.

00:06:40Marc:And you really start to wonder, when does this shit hit the fan?

00:06:43Marc:When do people get out of control?

00:06:47Marc:These are deep fears.

00:06:50Marc:But really the deepest fear when you realize that nature is so much more powerful than we are.

00:06:58Marc:And that you have no control over it whatsoever.

00:07:00Marc:And we're all very vulnerable and fragile.

00:07:04Marc:And you just look at people.

00:07:06Marc:Neighbors came together.

00:07:07Marc:We were helping each other clean up.

00:07:08Marc:People were like, how'd you make coffee?

00:07:10Marc:I don't know.

00:07:11Marc:The gas is still on.

00:07:12Marc:You boil water.

00:07:13Marc:Really?

00:07:13Marc:Are we that lost as a people?

00:07:17Marc:But really when you're in that and you wonder about things breaking down, you wonder or you realize just how fragile it all is.

00:07:27Marc:In those moments where I was sitting in my house with a candle, no sounds, wondering if the winds were going to pick up again, not knowing when my power would come on, alone with my girl, the two of us,

00:07:45Marc:The feelings that come, I mean, really, I gotta be honest with you, what I found myself asking at that moment, when everything was just dark, I took a look inside myself and I said, how long is the Wi-Fi gonna be off?

00:08:10Marc:Really, how long is it going to be off?

00:08:11Marc:Because I can't.

00:08:14Marc:It's been a day and a half.

00:08:15Marc:I mean, I don't know what people think I am or what I'm made of, but I mean, when can I get Wi-Fi?

00:08:24Marc:You know, I can't even charge my phone here.

00:08:30Marc:Yep.

00:08:31Marc:Big questions.

00:08:34Marc:I'm not in the best way.

00:08:36Marc:I mean, I'm really not.

00:08:37Marc:I got a couple emails and I'm not happy about what... Some days are better than others, people.

00:08:45Marc:I mean, I got a beautiful email.

00:08:47Marc:Subject line, the revolution will not be fetishized.

00:08:50Marc:I enjoyed the recent show with Anthony Bourdain and appreciated your intro comments about cast iron.

00:08:56Marc:Indeed, it's worth spreading the gospel on that one for a whole lot of reasons that neither you nor I have the time to elucidate.

00:09:03Marc:For example, the simplicity of cast iron is an antidote to the present diseased addiction to convenience that defines our current culture.

00:09:12Marc:But that's neither here nor there.

00:09:13Marc:You mentioned something in there about how to care for cast iron.

00:09:17Marc:Go easy on those pans and go therefore easy on yourself.

00:09:21Marc:Don't fetishize them.

00:09:23Marc:It's not about perfection of cast iron care, but the perfection of the pan itself.

00:09:27Marc:Obsess too much on seasoning them to a...

00:09:30Marc:superlative sheen and you miss their beauty which is simplicity and it's concomitant durability what makes them worthy of the kind of attention you just pay them on your show is the fact that their care is as simple as their construction just keep them far away from soap that's it don't fuss around with all that other bullshit seasoning them in a hot oven and turning your apartment into practice room for the local fire academy forget all that other stuff

00:09:55Marc:Clean them with hot water.

00:09:56Marc:Occasionally the luster will be stripped, but that's just natural salts and juices doing their natural thing on a natural material.

00:10:03Marc:As long as you keep soap away from that shit, the shine will return by the end of the next cooking cycle.

00:10:09Marc:So what if it's not perfect all the time?

00:10:12Marc:That's the way it and we are supposed to be.

00:10:16Marc:Very nice.

00:10:17Marc:Be well, and thanks for continuing to serve up the goods with your show, Mike.

00:10:22Marc:Thank you, Mike.

00:10:24Marc:Lovely email.

00:10:26Marc:Poetic, thoughtful, deep.

00:10:30Marc:Unlike this one.

00:10:32Marc:Subject line.

00:10:33Marc:Episode 230 sucked.

00:10:35Marc:All caps.

00:10:36Marc:Three punctuation marks.

00:10:38Marc:Seriously, Mark.

00:10:39Marc:Spelled with a K. Episode 230 with Dr. Steven Danziger.

00:10:42Marc:Really?

00:10:43Marc:All caps.

00:10:44Marc:Four question marks.

00:10:46Marc:That episode should have been called Who Cares Episode.

00:10:49Yeah.

00:10:49Marc:i was expecting to be entertained to be amused to laugh but all i could think of while listening to it was quote is it over yet unquote stick to interviewing comedians please all caps spelled with three e's a z and e three exclamation points if i want to listen to dr phil and other people's problems i'll watch dr phil or listen to dr ruth is she even still alive

00:11:11Marc:smarten the fuck up i usually love your podcast mark with a k and i actually look forward to listening to them while walking my dog dot dot dot i shit my pants on this episode in not all caps in a good way two exclamation points disheartened comma alita look i try to read all your emails and i didn't need to read this one so i wrote back thoughtfully

00:11:38Marc:Fuck off.

00:11:39Marc:Don't listen if you don't like an episode.

00:11:41Marc:That episode got more positive email than almost any show I've done.

00:11:44Marc:Actually, yours is the only shitty, cunty one.

00:11:47Marc:Just don't listen.

00:11:48Marc:Don't dump your undealt with shit in my inbox and don't tell me what to do with my show.

00:11:54Marc:Fuck you and your dog, Marin.

00:11:58Marc:Was that the wrong way to approach that?

00:12:01Marc:You know, it's sporadic now.

00:12:05Marc:Isn't that weird?

00:12:05Marc:That dog just barked right when I mentioned fuck your dog.

00:12:10Marc:I go through the emails as efficiently as possible.

00:12:12Marc:Some of you get emails back from me.

00:12:13Marc:I appreciate all of them.

00:12:14Marc:Some of them will be right on the show.

00:12:17Marc:I still am in it, but there's a lot more these days, and I'm certainly grateful for that, but it's very hard for me to get to all of them.

00:12:24Marc:But I appreciate that email, and I'm not sure I'm sorry for what I sent back.

00:12:30Marc:Alright, one other thing before we go to Jillian.

00:12:35Marc:My buddy Matt Graham, who will be a guest on this show, is a very interesting, intense, complicated dude.

00:12:42Marc:I started with him.

00:12:43Marc:He got out of comedy.

00:12:45Marc:He went into professional Scrabble playing.

00:12:46Marc:Maybe you've read about him in that book about the Scrabble players or seen him in the documentary.

00:12:50Marc:He's done some poker playing.

00:12:52Marc:He's done a lot of things.

00:12:53Marc:He's incredibly brilliant and definitely intense.

00:12:58Marc:His episode's coming up in a bit, but he's going to be performing in New York City.

00:13:02Marc:He's going to be trying to get back into comedy and doing a one-man show.

00:13:05Marc:This is at 7.30 p.m.

00:13:07Marc:at the Kimball Studio.

00:13:09Marc:That's at 78 Fifth Avenue, 10th floor.

00:13:12Marc:I don't know what this guy was a genius.

00:13:16Marc:He may still be a genius.

00:13:19Marc:But if you want to go see something interesting, 730 p.m.

00:13:22Marc:in New York City, 78 Fifth Avenue, 10th floor, Kimball Studio, Thursday, December 9th.

00:13:30Marc:All right, let's talk to Jillian.

00:13:36Marc:I have your books.

00:13:37Marc:They were not sent to me quickly enough for me to read both of them.

00:13:40Marc:Is that going to upset you?

00:13:42Guest:No, not at all.

00:13:43Marc:I was excited to talk to you for a couple of reasons because I have a fascination and I'm obviously not alone with the sex industry sometimes.

00:13:54Guest:And you're not alone in this.

00:13:56Marc:No, it seems to do very well.

00:13:58Marc:The sex industry comforted in general.

00:14:00Marc:It doesn't seem to be hurting that particular industry.

00:14:03Marc:But you come like I'm from New Jersey.

00:14:05Marc:You really grew up in New Jersey.

00:14:06Guest:I grew up in Jersey.

00:14:07Guest:Where in Jersey are you from?

00:14:08Marc:My mother was from Pompton Lakes, which is by Wayne.

00:14:12Marc:Do you know that?

00:14:13Guest:Vaguely.

00:14:15Guest:I mean, there are like 80 million, billion towns in New Jersey.

00:14:18Guest:Have you found that?

00:14:19Guest:No, I know.

00:14:20Guest:It's so weird.

00:14:20Marc:And I always think, like, how could you not know where it is?

00:14:23Marc:But no one knows where it is.

00:14:23Guest:I do know where Wayne is, though.

00:14:25Marc:Bergen County, I think.

00:14:26Marc:It's in Bergen County.

00:14:27Guest:Yeah, I'm from Essex County.

00:14:28Guest:I'm from Livingston, which is near the oranges.

00:14:31Guest:That's not far.

00:14:31Guest:It's not far.

00:14:32Marc:Yeah.

00:14:32Marc:Right.

00:14:33Marc:Livingston.

00:14:33Marc:I have my cousins and uncle live in orange, one of the oranges.

00:14:38Guest:Yeah.

00:14:39Marc:So suburban Jersey.

00:14:40Marc:Yeah.

00:14:40Guest:I am a nice Jewish girl from New Jersey.

00:14:43Guest:I knew it.

00:14:43Marc:I knew you were Jewish.

00:14:44Marc:You know how I knew you were Jewish?

00:14:46Marc:Because your second fake name is Lauren.

00:14:50Guest:Well, it's my middle name.

00:14:51Guest:It's my real middle name.

00:14:53Marc:And I'm like, only Jews call their kids Lauren.

00:14:55Guest:Right.

00:14:56Marc:Wow.

00:14:56Marc:Do you want to tell me your real name?

00:14:58Guest:my real last name, like my Jewish last name?

00:15:01Guest:No, I won't.

00:15:02Guest:Come on.

00:15:02Guest:No, and you know why I won't.

00:15:03Guest:Is it a Berg?

00:15:04Marc:Is it a Steen?

00:15:05Guest:It's not a Berg or a Steen.

00:15:06Guest:It's one of those sort of bastardized Russian, like chopped short Russian.

00:15:10Guest:But it's very unusual, and I try not to use my parents' name.

00:15:14Marc:Well, you don't want to drag them into it?

00:15:15Guest:Well, they're sort of, I mean, they're into it anyway because I've been on television and people recognize.

00:15:22Guest:No, certainly not.

00:15:24Marc:Really?

00:15:25Marc:Is there tension?

00:15:26Guest:There's tension, yeah.

00:15:27Yeah.

00:15:28Marc:Okay, so your fame and your stories did not thrill them.

00:15:34Guest:Well, they knew about it.

00:15:35Guest:They knew about all of it.

00:15:37Guest:What didn't thrill them, and I don't know if you had this experience coming from a similar background, is that I talked about it.

00:15:44Guest:Yeah.

00:15:45Guest:You know, like that's just not, you don't write tell-all memoirs.

00:15:48Guest:I mean, maybe you go and do all kinds of weird black sheep, you know, crazy, get involved in some international prostitution thing.

00:15:55Marc:Sure, that happens with a lot of Jewish girls.

00:15:57Marc:Almost everyone I've met dealt with the international.

00:16:01Guest:Very, very particular slice of the pie of Jewish friends then.

00:16:06Guest:But but it happens.

00:16:08Guest:You know, people do, you know, whatever your kids get involved in drugs and get over it.

00:16:13Guest:Sure.

00:16:14Guest:But you don't write a tell all memoir about it because it's so much about what the neighbors think of you.

00:16:19Marc:Sure.

00:16:20Marc:That's your kid.

00:16:20Marc:Is this your real first name, Jillian?

00:16:23Guest:Yes.

00:16:24Marc:So that's a little Jillian.

00:16:25Marc:So they've got it for the rest of their life.

00:16:27Marc:They've got to see the Steins across the street, give them the stink eye.

00:16:30Guest:Yeah, or not even the stink eye, just gloat.

00:16:34Guest:They're so excited.

00:16:35Guest:Like, oh, we knew all along.

00:16:37Guest:We've been hearing about that daughter of yours.

00:16:39Marc:Did you know ours is a doctor now?

00:16:41Marc:That kind of shit.

00:16:42Guest:Right.

00:16:42Guest:Precisely.

00:16:44Guest:Precisely.

00:16:45Guest:And there was also, you know, I really told the truth about a lot of things that went on in my home, which weren't all very rosy.

00:16:53Guest:And it wasn't what the book was about, but it was certainly a part of my story.

00:16:57Guest:And so, you know, I told the truth about it and my parents were really upset about that.

00:17:02Marc:Well, let's do that.

00:17:03Marc:I know that, you know, it just came out in paperback, the first book and the second one's about to come out.

00:17:08Guest:The second book, Pretty, my novel, just came out last week.

00:17:13Marc:It did?

00:17:14Guest:Uh-huh.

00:17:14Guest:And then some girls came out.

00:17:15Guest:They're both paperback originals.

00:17:17Guest:And some girls came out last year.

00:17:19Marc:Right.

00:17:19Marc:So, well, now I'm fascinated.

00:17:21Marc:Now, was your dad, like, my dad's a doctor.

00:17:23Marc:Was your dad, you know, in- Stockbroker.

00:17:25Guest:Okay, so- That's one of three options.

00:17:27Marc:Doctor, stockbroker, lawyer.

00:17:29Guest:Right.

00:17:29Marc:And then the other Jews.

00:17:33Marc:And you grew up in suburban New Jersey, which is close to New York.

00:17:38Marc:So what what what was the path?

00:17:41Marc:I mean, you decided to leave home or you didn't finish high school or you went to.

00:17:45Marc:Oh, you what happened?

00:17:46Guest:OK, well, sort of all of the above.

00:17:49Guest:I was adopted at birth and Jews.

00:17:55Guest:adopted by Jews from non-Jews.

00:17:58Marc:Did you go find them?

00:17:59Guest:I did.

00:18:00Guest:You did?

00:18:00Guest:Yeah, and that's also in the book, in the first book.

00:18:03Guest:Yeah.

00:18:04Marc:Well, okay, so there's plenty of stories to tell.

00:18:06Guest:There's plenty of stories.

00:18:07Marc:And you live down the street, so if we don't get it all, you just come back over.

00:18:10Guest:I got a million of them, and I live right next to the best pizza in L.A., so.

00:18:13Marc:Is it really that good, though?

00:18:15Guest:It is that good.

00:18:16Guest:Stop it.

00:18:16Marc:Yeah, you do Cafe Bianca, right?

00:18:18Marc:Cafe Blanca.

00:18:19Guest:Casa Bianca.

00:18:19Marc:Casa Bianca.

00:18:20Guest:You're not a pizza lover, or you would know.

00:18:22Marc:Stop it.

00:18:22Marc:I lived in New York.

00:18:23Marc:I lived in Boston.

00:18:24Marc:I've been to Chicago.

00:18:25Marc:I've had pizza.

00:18:26Guest:How can you live up the street from Casa Bianca and not even know how to stay there?

00:18:30Marc:Because my experience was I went there once or twice.

00:18:32Marc:It seems like a place that people bring their kids.

00:18:35Marc:It seems like to me the crust is not nice and thin.

00:18:37Marc:It's a little doughy.

00:18:38Marc:It's okay.

00:18:39Marc:It's like pizza parlor pizza.

00:18:41Marc:It's not like going to fucking John's on 6th Avenue.

00:18:45Marc:It's not...

00:18:45Guest:Okay, well, you've got to get the New York snobbery going on and the anti-child snobbery.

00:18:52Guest:Just because people's kids are there doesn't mean it's not good pizza.

00:18:55Guest:It doesn't make it Chuck E. Cheese.

00:18:56Marc:Makes it close.

00:18:59Marc:I know about kid-friendly restaurants.

00:19:00Marc:I have nothing against kids.

00:19:02Marc:But I mean, I'm telling you that we have a point of contention on the quality of that pizza.

00:19:06Guest:I accept that.

00:19:07Marc:All right.

00:19:07Marc:So you think it's the best.

00:19:08Marc:I think it's okay.

00:19:09Marc:I'm not a big pizza eater.

00:19:11Marc:I'm a closet anorexic.

00:19:13Marc:So pizza, it means hate to me.

00:19:15Guest:Right.

00:19:16Guest:Got it.

00:19:16Guest:Do you understand that?

00:19:17Guest:I understand.

00:19:17Marc:All right, so here you are, good Jewish girl, adopted, but you found your real parents.

00:19:21Marc:That's going to be a good story.

00:19:22Marc:Man, we've got so much to talk about.

00:19:24Marc:And then you end up what?

00:19:25Marc:What happens?

00:19:26Guest:Well, my relationship with my father particularly was very complicated and somewhat abusive.

00:19:33Guest:How?

00:19:35Guest:Well, my father is just a very controlling emotionally and physically abusive guy.

00:19:42Marc:In general.

00:19:42Guest:In general.

00:19:43Guest:There's that.

00:19:43Guest:So there it was.

00:19:44Guest:And so I left home early.

00:19:46Guest:I graduated when I was 16.

00:19:49Marc:Early and angrily?

00:19:50Guest:Early and very angrily with a very angry haircut.

00:19:54Marc:Which one?

00:19:55Guest:Sort of shaved on the side.

00:19:57Guest:Just one side or both?

00:19:58Guest:One side.

00:19:58Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:19:58Marc:I remember that one.

00:19:59Marc:My first girlfriend had that one.

00:20:00Guest:Not as attractive.

00:20:02Marc:Yeah, that just means angry.

00:20:03Marc:It just means I'm not even going to finish it.

00:20:05Guest:Yeah.

00:20:06Guest:Just furious.

00:20:09Guest:But I also wanted to be an actress.

00:20:13Guest:Another big surprise.

00:20:15Guest:And so I left.

00:20:16Guest:I went to NYU.

00:20:16Guest:I went to NYU when I was 16 years old.

00:20:18Guest:I got accepted early admission and I went there for about three minutes and then I decided I was done.

00:20:24Guest:I'd learned everything I needed to learn from college.

00:20:27Guest:I was moving on with life.

00:20:28Marc:Which were you in that?

00:20:29Marc:What program were you in?

00:20:30Guest:At Tisch at the Experimental Theater Wing, which is actually a wonderful program.

00:20:36Guest:But, you know, I just was really restless.

00:20:40Guest:I was just really a seeker and I was sure that, you know, happiness was right around the corner.

00:20:45Guest:It just wasn't.

00:20:46Marc:You were looking for happiness?

00:20:47Marc:You felt like you were looking for happiness or were you just looking for relief or just looking to express yourself?

00:20:51Marc:I mean, like I'm 47 and, you know, when people ask me, you know, are you happy?

00:20:55Marc:I'm like, is that even an option?

00:20:57Marc:Is that something...

00:20:58Guest:I say the same thing.

00:20:59Guest:I've stopped looking for happiness now.

00:21:01Guest:I don't think it's an option anymore.

00:21:03Guest:I mean, certainly not in an all-encompassing way.

00:21:05Marc:Peace of mind you can have.

00:21:06Guest:Yeah, I think you can have moments.

00:21:09Guest:I think you can have a level of acceptance.

00:21:12Marc:Yeah, I'm with you on that.

00:21:14Marc:But you think you were looking for happiness at 17?

00:21:16Guest:Yeah.

00:21:16Guest:I mean, I still thought that was possible.

00:21:18Guest:With that haircut?

00:21:19Marc:Yeah.

00:21:20Guest:It was probably growing out by then, you know, because in order to get to the next part of my story, it would have to have been grown out because that's when I started working as a stripper.

00:21:30Marc:Now, didn't you do any theater in New York or anything?

00:21:32Guest:I did.

00:21:32Guest:I did a ton of theater in New York.

00:21:33Guest:I did some really wonderful theater.

00:21:35Guest:Well, I was an intern for the Worcester Group, who are...

00:21:38Marc:Who the fuck was there then?

00:21:39Marc:What year was that?

00:21:40Guest:Amazing.

00:21:41Guest:It was everyone then.

00:21:42Guest:Spalding Gray.

00:21:43Guest:Willem Dafoe.

00:21:45Guest:It was Willem.

00:21:46Guest:It was Liz.

00:21:47Guest:It was Kate Valk, who's still one of my favorite actresses of all time.

00:21:50Guest:It was Ron Vaughter was still alive.

00:21:53Guest:And he was like a mentor of mine.

00:21:55Marc:So you were in like, you know, very sort of respected avant garde New York culture.

00:22:00Marc:And you were you were you could have stayed in that.

00:22:02Guest:And I did stand.

00:22:03Guest:I mean, in fact, I performed in that.

00:22:05Guest:I was performing with Richard Foreman.

00:22:07Marc:Oh, my God.

00:22:08Marc:What was it called?

00:22:09Guest:The Ontological Hysteric Theater.

00:22:10Guest:I saw a couple of his shows.

00:22:11Marc:So there's like 90 people on stage with a million things going on.

00:22:14Guest:Actually, in the show I was in, there were only three of us.

00:22:16Marc:But there was a lot going on.

00:22:17Guest:A lot going on.

00:22:19Guest:Yeah.

00:22:19Guest:There were pieces of plexiglass hanging in front of us.

00:22:23Guest:We were miked.

00:22:24Guest:There were bookshelves falling on our heads and string everywhere.

00:22:27Marc:Did you get a sense of what was trying to be achieved at these places or you just wanted to be an actress?

00:22:32Guest:Oh, no.

00:22:33Guest:If I just wanted to be an actress, I'd have been auditioning for commercials.

00:22:37Guest:I really felt like, as an artist, I responded to what was going on.

00:22:41Marc:Which was hard to comprehend, but very exciting.

00:22:43Guest:Exciting, and just spoke to whatever rhythmically I wanted to find in the theater.

00:22:50Guest:It was there.

00:22:50Guest:The music of it was there for me.

00:22:52Marc:And also, it was very specific and special.

00:22:54Marc:That world of experimental theater is so fucking...

00:22:58Marc:If you go to a well produced experimental theater piece, your mind gets blown and you walk out and you're like, I don't even know what happened.

00:23:05Guest:Exactly.

00:23:06Guest:And, you know, I was really interested in evoking an emotional response in a way that wasn't manipulative and wasn't obvious and wasn't, you know, bullshit.

00:23:17Guest:Like you go and see some Hollywood movie and.

00:23:18Marc:Or a Broadway show.

00:23:20Guest:Or a Broadway show, and there's this big swell of violins and whatever, and you're crying, and you're like, I'm crying, but I fucking hate you.

00:23:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:28Marc:Because you did this on purpose in a way that was slimy.

00:23:32Guest:Right, to sell me some shit.

00:23:34Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:35Marc:So you're very anti that.

00:23:36Guest:Well, you know, I participate in it.

00:23:40Guest:It's not like I now I do.

00:23:42Guest:And then I did.

00:23:43Guest:I mean, it's not like I'm anti-commercial art.

00:23:46Marc:There's nothing wrong with having a good time at a movie.

00:23:49Guest:Right.

00:23:50Guest:And also, I happen to be a big closet musical fan, although not so much a closet musical fan because it's all over the book about how I started musicals.

00:23:57Guest:And I really do love musicals.

00:24:00Yeah.

00:24:00Marc:So there you were, a little avant-garde rebel girl who was doing the experimental theater, but you liked musicals.

00:24:05Marc:Did you go see the Fantastics and shit?

00:24:08Guest:When I was a kid, I did.

00:24:09Guest:I mean, that was one of the things that really, I mean, my relationship with my father was very complicated.

00:24:14Guest:We were very close, and he really introduced me to the theater.

00:24:19Guest:And he used to take me into New York all the time to see the ballet, to see, you know, cats and a chorus sign and all that stuff.

00:24:25Marc:I mean, how inappropriate did it get?

00:24:27Guest:like we're on these dates yeah when I was eight yeah I was like Mr. Mistoffelees and he's reaching over and feeling up my leg no uh not at all my father was not it was not sexually inappropriate at all he was just a he's just kind of a bastard yeah you know yeah just kind of a here let's go to the ballet but you're too fat to be a ballerina oh really yeah yeah stop crying here's some ice cream

00:24:56Guest:Right.

00:24:56Guest:Exactly.

00:25:01Guest:You had that dad, too.

00:25:03Marc:No, I had a mom that was the opposite.

00:25:05Marc:It was like, you think you really need that ice cream?

00:25:07Marc:Because I won't love you if you're fat.

00:25:09Marc:Nice.

00:25:10Marc:Yeah, it was all out on the table.

00:25:11Marc:It was all very honest.

00:25:13Guest:Yeah.

00:25:14Marc:Yeah.

00:25:14Marc:So, okay.

00:25:15Marc:So then what the fuck happened to you?

00:25:17Guest:Well, I said, I'm done with college.

00:25:21Guest:I'm moving on to life.

00:25:23Guest:After a year.

00:25:23Guest:Experimental theater and after a year.

00:25:25Guest:Exactly.

00:25:26Guest:And my father said, great.

00:25:28Guest:Life costs money and you'll be back to college because I'm not giving you any more.

00:25:35Guest:And strangely enough, my job interning at the Worcester Group did not pay the rent in New York.

00:25:41Guest:And I went with a friend of mine who was working at the Kit Kat Club at 56 and Broadway, which is now Flash Dancers.

00:25:49Guest:And I went, I was like, I'm going to be a cocktail waitress.

00:25:52Guest:Because I was actually already working on this bleaker street kind of bar and I was a terrible cocktail waitress.

00:25:58Guest:And my friend said, you're a horrible waitress.

00:26:00Guest:Come where I work.

00:26:01Guest:They won't care that you're a horrible waitress.

00:26:03Guest:And I went and it was a drink hustle.

00:26:05Marc:Right.

00:26:05Guest:Right.

00:26:06Guest:Which is just so odious.

00:26:08Marc:More boobs, more drinks kind of thing.

00:26:09Guest:No, like, oh, would you like a, you know, whatever drink you're drinking?

00:26:16Guest:You know, I would really love a pina colada.

00:26:19Guest:Can I, will you order me one and I'll come sit down and talk to you?

00:26:22Guest:And I was like, this is the worst.

00:26:26Guest:Like, I would rather be naked on that stage than have to sit here and talk to this fucker, you know?

00:26:30Guest:So that's what I did.

00:26:34Marc:But I mean, what is the transition from that?

00:26:35Marc:I mean, you're a sophisticated person.

00:26:37Marc:You're smart.

00:26:38Marc:You're hanging out.

00:26:39Marc:You're watching Willem Dafoe.

00:26:40Marc:You're excited about life.

00:26:42Guest:Well, I don't know about sophisticated, okay?

00:26:44Guest:I was bright, no doubt.

00:26:46Guest:And I was, but I was like wild, you know?

00:26:51Marc:I was just like- So there was part of that punk rock sort of element of like, fuck it, man.

00:26:55Marc:You know, I'll objectify myself because, you know, I'm doing it with an ironic detachment-

00:27:01Guest:Um, no, I mean, I don't even think I went that far.

00:27:04Guest:I was 17.

00:27:05Marc:You know, I was still like, I just wanted to impose a bunch of my thoughts of what I thought you were.

00:27:10Guest:No, you know, I mean, really, I was looking up on that stage and going, wow, like, I could maybe do that.

00:27:18Guest:Yeah.

00:27:19Guest:I came from a place of being, also having had eating disorder.

00:27:24Guest:What kind?

00:27:25Guest:I was anorexic.

00:27:25Marc:Really?

00:27:26Marc:For reals?

00:27:27Guest:For reals, hospitalized.

00:27:29Guest:Really?

00:27:29Guest:Yeah.

00:27:29Guest:How old?

00:27:30Guest:15.

00:27:30Marc:Really?

00:27:31Guest:Yeah.

00:27:31Marc:So you're like completely fucked up Jewish girl.

00:27:33Guest:I am a totally fucked up Jewish girl.

00:27:36Guest:Yeah, beyond.

00:27:37Guest:Cutter, anorexic, you name it.

00:27:39Guest:Cutter and no sexual abuse?

00:27:40Guest:I got it.

00:27:41Guest:Well, I didn't say no sexual abuse.

00:27:45Guest:I said my dad never sexually abused me.

00:27:47Guest:Right.

00:27:47Guest:But, you know, I had a relationship with a very much older man when I was 11, that kind of thing.

00:27:53Guest:So, you know, bordering.

00:27:55Guest:I mean, not bordering sexual abuse.

00:27:57Guest:It is sexual abuse.

00:27:58Guest:It was a consensual situation.

00:28:01Guest:It's always very.

00:28:02Guest:It's complicated.

00:28:03Marc:Yeah.

00:28:04Guest:It is.

00:28:04Guest:It was.

00:28:05Guest:It was complicated.

00:28:05Guest:I mean, I was certainly sexually abused, but it was complicated.

00:28:09Marc:Right.

00:28:09Marc:But you were 11.

00:28:10Guest:I was 11.

00:28:10Marc:I mean, I don't think consensual is really the.

00:28:12Guest:That's not.

00:28:13Guest:You're right.

00:28:14Guest:Legally, that's not the word.

00:28:16Guest:It's not the word.

00:28:16Marc:Sounds a little Stockholm syndrome.

00:28:18Marc:Yeah.

00:28:19Guest:I actually use that in the book.

00:28:21Guest:I talk about Stockholm syndrome in the book.

00:28:23Guest:Yeah, I do.

00:28:25Guest:Not for that situation for another one.

00:28:27Guest:Oh, good.

00:28:27Guest:Which we're going to get to.

00:28:28Marc:So you're wired for that, I guess.

00:28:31Marc:uh yeah aren't we all are we all wired for it i think the idea of it the sympathy for the victimizer i guess depends on how fun it is and you know how much they fuck your head sure yeah yeah i guess you're right it's right there under the surface for us uh you know broken people for all of us who are you know looking for validation or love poorly parented yeah poorly parented yeah yeah people who didn't get enough love from my daddy and my mommy yeah

00:28:58Marc:All right, so you make the jump to the stage.

00:29:00Guest:So I got up on stage.

00:29:02Marc:And so that was not, was that full nudity?

00:29:04Marc:No.

00:29:04Guest:No, it was a topless place.

00:29:08Guest:And, you know, and then it snowballed from there.

00:29:11Marc:Drugs?

00:29:13Guest:No, not quite yet.

00:29:15Guest:I mean, certainly, you know, drinking, drugs, a little bit here and there.

00:29:18Guest:But it wasn't any sort of, like, major problem for me yet.

00:29:22Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:29:22Guest:No, you know, all these opportunities just kind of.

00:29:26Guest:Like what?

00:29:27Guest:Well, I met, I was acting also, and I wound up in this vampire film, and I met a young woman who said, oh, you are working far too hard at these strip clubs, and you are going to ruin your knees, and you need to come with me and work at this escort agency.

00:29:44Guest:It's the best escort agency in New York, and it's very glamorous, and you'll make a lot more money, and you'll have a lot more time for your theater.

00:29:51Marc:Now, were you telling the Worcester Group friends that you were stripping?

00:29:55Guest:Yes, I was.

00:29:56Guest:And they all thought it was very, you know, cute and endearing.

00:29:59Guest:And it was the early 90s and it was sort of the Annie Sprinkle heyday.

00:30:03Guest:Empowered.

00:30:04Guest:Yeah.

00:30:05Guest:Exactly.

00:30:05Guest:You know, Nina Harley Annie Sprinkle.

00:30:08Marc:Were you thinking about those things?

00:30:09Marc:You said you weren't really thinking about that.

00:30:11Guest:Not yet, but I was certainly introduced to all those women through my travels.

00:30:15Guest:And now, you know, many of them are friends of mine.

00:30:17Guest:Sure.

00:30:17Guest:And I have a different perspective on it now, though.

00:30:22Guest:You do?

00:30:23Guest:Yeah, I do.

00:30:24Guest:I didn't think it's an entirely empowering choice.

00:30:27Marc:Well, let's talk about that once we drag you through the mud of your story.

00:30:32Guest:So what happened was I started working at this escort agency.

00:30:35Marc:Now, you're a highly paid prostitute.

00:30:39Guest:That's correct.

00:30:39Guest:Yeah.

00:30:40Marc:And you were 18, 19?

00:30:42Guest:I had just turned 18.

00:30:45Marc:Now, what were some of the highlights of that experience?

00:30:50Guest:Well, one that I write about is... How about one you didn't write about?

00:30:55Guest:Oh, God.

00:30:56Guest:I mean, what did I not write about?

00:30:58Guest:Well, it's all just so typical.

00:31:02Guest:You know, the Japanese businessmen in town from Tokyo who just want me and my friend to come and talk to them about how we're nurses.

00:31:11Guest:And we live in this dorm where we have to give each other enemas.

00:31:16Guest:And in the nurse's dorm, everyone has to walk around for an hour naked.

00:31:20Guest:Yeah.

00:31:21Guest:And you just tell them stories?

00:31:23Guest:Yeah.

00:31:23Marc:But does it lead to sex?

00:31:25Guest:No, not in this case.

00:31:26Guest:I mean, that was just one particularly bizarre one.

00:31:29Guest:Yeah.

00:31:29Marc:That's an easy gig, right?

00:31:30Guest:Yeah.

00:31:31Guest:And then there was the talk show host who was my first, you know, this talk show host.

00:31:38Guest:We've got to watch out for him.

00:31:40Guest:You really do.

00:31:41Marc:Yeah.

00:31:41Guest:Tell me about it.

00:31:42Guest:But yeah, it's like a celebrity.

00:31:45Guest:I actually had to conceal the identity whole thing.

00:31:49Guest:And that was my first call.

00:31:52Marc:Was he known for this type of stuff?

00:31:53Guest:No.

00:31:55Guest:He didn't do anything particularly horrible to me just because he was a celebrity.

00:31:58Guest:I had to conceal it when I wrote the book.

00:32:00Guest:Yeah, so you wouldn't get in trouble.

00:32:02Guest:Yeah.

00:32:03Guest:But no, I showed up and he wanted to talk to me all about experimental theater as a matter of fact.

00:32:09Guest:So it was a little interview.

00:32:10Yeah.

00:32:10Guest:He had this whole like off-Broadway past.

00:32:14Guest:He was a real serious actor.

00:32:15Guest:He really wanted to impress that.

00:32:16Marc:Did he sit at a desk and have you sit at a chair?

00:32:18Marc:No, of course not.

00:32:20Guest:No, he stood at his bar next to his CD towers, you know, and those leather couches, very like 90s.

00:32:28Guest:And then he says, there's something I want to show you.

00:32:33Guest:And he pulls me into the back of his apartment.

00:32:35Guest:And I was like, oh, please do not let it be, you know, an antique set of surgical instruments.

00:32:42Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:43Guest:And it was this whole walk-in closet all lined with cowboy boots the whole way around.

00:32:48Guest:And that was, you know, his prize.

00:32:52Marc:That was his thing?

00:32:52Guest:Yeah, that was his thing.

00:32:54Guest:And then he... Did he wear a cowboy hat?

00:32:57Guest:He didn't wear a cowboy hat.

00:32:58Guest:No, just boots.

00:32:59Marc:Just like the boots?

00:33:00Guest:Yeah.

00:33:01Marc:Older guy?

00:33:01Guest:No.

00:33:03Guest:No.

00:33:03Guest:I mean, to me at that time, yeah.

00:33:05Marc:Still in the business?

00:33:07Guest:I don't think so.

00:33:09Guest:No.

00:33:09Guest:Are you trying to figure out who it is?

00:33:11Guest:Why wouldn't I?

00:33:13Guest:I'll tell you after.

00:33:14Marc:All right, listeners.

00:33:17Marc:I'm going to learn the true identity of the cowboy boot guy.

00:33:20Marc:But neither one of those sound very horrible.

00:33:22Guest:No.

00:33:24Guest:You know, I mean...

00:33:25Guest:There were plenty of horrible things, but I mean, it's just exactly what you'd expect, you know?

00:33:32Marc:But were there ever the situations where, okay, so where you were, you know, you're doing this job, so you really didn't know what you were walking into.

00:33:39Marc:This is always a fascinating thing to me is the strange and bizarre fucked up courage of people who work in that business to walk into these situations knowing full well that they, you know, could get the shit beaten out of them or they could get raped or they could get, you know, in any sort of problem.

00:33:53Marc:And they would not...

00:33:55Marc:You don't have much traction legally because they're whores.

00:33:59Guest:Well, you know, it's interesting.

00:34:00Guest:Like I talk about the woman who brought me into this and she she's actually still my friend.

00:34:06Marc:She's still in the racket.

00:34:08Guest:No, she's not.

00:34:11Guest:We reconnected.

00:34:12Guest:No kidding.

00:34:14Guest:Thank God.

00:34:15Guest:In the correct circumstances, it is.

00:34:17Guest:But she was this fascinating creature to me.

00:34:23Guest:And there was so much in me that was frightened.

00:34:27Guest:I used to have a little bit of OCD, and I would just check the locks.

00:34:33Guest:I felt so...

00:34:35Guest:trapped by that kind of fear you know check the locks 14 times and literally look under the bed for monsters for monsters yeah i get that okay i don't like going in swimming pools at night because i'm afraid of right sharks sure in swimming pools i have the same thing they only come out at night somehow night sharks yeah i've heard of them

00:34:56Guest:I've seen them.

00:34:56Guest:You're right about those.

00:34:58Guest:Yeah.

00:34:59Guest:So, yeah.

00:34:59Guest:And she was fascinating to me because she was unafraid, you know.

00:35:03Guest:She was the real deal.

00:35:04Guest:She was the real deal.

00:35:05Guest:And I just wanted to be like her, you know.

00:35:08Guest:So I sort of hitched my wagon to her star in a way and just went like, OK, I want this feeling, this feeling that like anything could happen right now.

00:35:18Guest:Anything, the worst thing, the best thing.

00:35:20Guest:You know, who knows?

00:35:21Marc:But I guess a lot of people like I don't fully realize because I don't talk to a lot of people in this who who are actively in the sex industry or were even.

00:35:30Marc:It's not my wheelhouse necessarily, but there is a lot of control to it.

00:35:34Marc:I mean, you know, outside of the fact that you may get hurt or you may not want to do what you're asked to do, you know, when it all works.

00:35:41Marc:I mean, you're really in control on some level.

00:35:43Guest:Right.

00:35:44Guest:And that was the other thing that I liked about it was the power that I felt by not because I also am like a big mush.

00:35:52Guest:Right.

00:35:52Guest:I'm just like a big sensitive mush who is just getting hurt right and left by everyone and everything in the world.

00:35:59Guest:And and here was this new me that I discovered that didn't feel a thing.

00:36:05Mm hmm.

00:36:05Guest:I was like, not only.

00:36:07Marc:You said that with such passion.

00:36:09Marc:It's sort of like, I finally reached my point.

00:36:11Guest:It was remarkable.

00:36:14Guest:It was ecstatic for me how powerful that felt.

00:36:19Guest:Of course, it wasn't until years later when I figured out, oh, wait, I can't flip that switch back on.

00:36:26Guest:Suddenly, I can't feel anything.

00:36:30Guest:I can't feel I'm having sex with my boyfriend.

00:36:32Guest:I can't feel.

00:36:33Guest:I can't feel.

00:36:35Marc:You were able to shut all that shit down?

00:36:37Guest:I was.

00:36:38Marc:Just out of necessity?

00:36:42Guest:I mean, was there ever a sort of thing?

00:36:43Guest:No, what I found is that that switch was there to begin with.

00:36:47Guest:And I believe that that came from, and this is why I wrote about my history with my family, that it comes from abuse a lot of time.

00:36:54Guest:And that's why, what percentage of women in the sex industry have been abused in one way or another?

00:37:00Guest:98%, 99% probably?

00:37:02Marc:Explain that switch to me a little bit because when you don't have the power to stop what's happening to you, something shuts down.

00:37:11Guest:Or what you find is like, I call it the trap door.

00:37:13Guest:You know, like you just open the trap door and leave.

00:37:17Guest:And what I felt like was I was leaving a hologram behind.

00:37:20Marc:No, I get that.

00:37:20Guest:You know, and I would just like go float around and go.

00:37:24Marc:Until they were done.

00:37:26Guest:Until they're done.

00:37:26Guest:Exactly.

00:37:27Marc:But what if you were required to say things and you could do all that and still go away?

00:37:33Guest:Yeah, because it... Yeah, I mean, it's not like, you know, I'm not... I don't have multiple personality disorder.

00:37:39Guest:I'm not, like, completely leaving my body.

00:37:41Guest:You know what I mean?

00:37:42Guest:There's this... My brain is still there.

00:37:46Marc:Yeah, because I guess I'm trying to, like, in my own mind, just for my own interest, trying to connect exactly... Because...

00:37:54Marc:I think that when people are abused sexually or when they're abused physically or whatever, that because that relationship was somebody you trust or you're supposed to trust a lot of the times, that you think that's the way it's supposed to be.

00:38:06Marc:And that's how you get the attention one way or the other.

00:38:08Guest:Right.

00:38:09Guest:And then you replicate that in your relationships.

00:38:12Marc:But the other thing seems more reasonable to me is like, I can't stop this from happening.

00:38:15Marc:I'm going to leave my body now.

00:38:17Guest:Right.

00:38:18Marc:But then once you got into escorting, you had more control than that, but you still had that as almost a tool.

00:38:24Right.

00:38:24Guest:Well, what I found was that I was very good at it.

00:38:27Guest:You know, I mean, that was the thing.

00:38:28Marc:At being an escort.

00:38:29Guest:I was very good at being an escort.

00:38:31Guest:I was very good at being a stripper because I had a couple things going for me.

00:38:35Guest:And one was, it was sort of the actress in me, which was, look at me, look at me.

00:38:39Guest:Right?

00:38:40Guest:So I enjoyed sort of playing these roles.

00:38:42Guest:Right?

00:38:43Guest:And like the movie of me in my mind that I was, you know, it was all very picturesque to me for a moment.

00:38:48Guest:And then there was...

00:38:50Guest:I could tell what people wanted me to be.

00:38:52Marc:What was that list?

00:38:56Guest:It just depended on who the person was.

00:38:58Marc:But I mean, there had to be some types.

00:38:59Marc:Like, either you had to be dirty or childish or... Yeah, exactly.

00:39:04Guest:Like, I mean, there's certain things that, like...

00:39:06Guest:lent myself to more.

00:39:09Guest:And usually it's the people who want to be listened to.

00:39:13Guest:Like my niche.

00:39:15Guest:Isn't that fucking all of them?

00:39:17Marc:No, it's not.

00:39:17Marc:It seems to me that there's those who are marginally abusive and those who are sad.

00:39:22Guest:I'm more on the sad tip.

00:39:29Guest:I mean, abusers like me too.

00:39:31Guest:Don't get me wrong.

00:39:32Guest:No, but really, I attract that sort of customer or did back in the day.

00:39:38Guest:I haven't done sex work in a very, very long time.

00:39:40Marc:When did you get out?

00:39:41Guest:How old were you?

00:39:44Guest:25 when I got out.

00:39:46Guest:Yeah, I mean, there was a few relapses along the way.

00:39:50Guest:You look at them as relapses?

00:39:52Guest:Not exactly.

00:39:55Marc:What is a relapse in that?

00:39:56Marc:It's sort of like, no, this guy's got a lot of money and he just wants you to put your butt in his face.

00:40:01Guest:That's kind of, yeah.

00:40:02Guest:I mean, if I was super broke, you know, and whatever, working as a hair assistant or whatever the hell million things I tried to do to get myself respectable, you know.

00:40:15Guest:And then, yeah, do you want to just go and do this little, you know, these, ah.

00:40:19Guest:all right.

00:40:21Guest:Um, but also not even that for a very long time.

00:40:25Guest:I mean, probably 10 years.

00:40:26Marc:So, so, okay.

00:40:27Marc:So then you're doing this escort thing, but like, what was there?

00:40:31Marc:And I, I imagine that you may have written about it, but was there before you got involved with what the, you know, the, the centerpiece of the book is, which is this harem situation.

00:40:41Guest:Right.

00:40:41Guest:Like we haven't even gotten to that.

00:40:43Marc:That's all right.

00:40:44Marc:You know, were there moments where you, you felt that you were in trouble?

00:40:49Guest:Um, no.

00:40:50Guest:Either physically, emotionally?

00:40:51Guest:No, I mean, certainly physically, maybe, you know, but emotionally, I didn't get that until later.

00:41:00Marc:So how'd this harem opportunity arise?

00:41:03Guest:Well, the same woman who brought me into your escort work, my hero, was also an actress.

00:41:08Guest:And, you know, we were... A working actress?

00:41:10Guest:Well, you know, yeah.

00:41:12Marc:I mean, what do we got to throw that shit around for?

00:41:14Marc:Everyone's an actress, but, you know.

00:41:15Guest:We were both trying to act, you know, so we're both going on auditions.

00:41:21Guest:And she said, there's this audition for to go and entertain rich businessmen in Singapore, which, you know, granted, I did not think was a legitimate audition.

00:41:32Guest:But she said there are these hostess clubs in Singapore and you dance and you sing and there isn't even any sex involved.

00:41:39Marc:Were you a singer?

00:41:40Guest:ish you know a little bit of a singer um i'm a singy acty dancey kind of gal whatever whatever situation calls for that's right song and dance person i am i'm a song and dance person from the old old school vaudevillian almost classic it's true start belting out tunes from south pacific i can do it i bet don't tempt me

00:42:04Guest:i'll get all bally high on your ass right here no i won't um so i went to this audition and it turned out it was you know in a hotel room at the ritz carlton it wasn't much of an audition right um it was more just like uh do you like foreign countries and will you stand over there and get in your underwear and let us take your picture please and uh

00:42:27Marc:And that was not an issue, obviously.

00:42:29Guest:Not an issue for me.

00:42:31Guest:And I didn't think much of it.

00:42:33Guest:And then I got a call a week later saying, actually, you got the role.

00:42:39Guest:And it's not a role.

00:42:40Guest:And surprise, there's no role.

00:42:44Guest:And we'd like you to come and be the personal guest of the Prince of Brunei.

00:42:49Mm-hmm.

00:42:49Guest:who the Prince of Brunei was, at the time, he was the brother of the Sultan of Brunei, who was the richest man in the world at that time.

00:42:58Marc:Did the money appeal to you?

00:43:01Guest:The money did appeal to me.

00:43:02Guest:I mean, it sounded like this astronomical amount of money.

00:43:04Guest:They said, you'll make $20,000 in two weeks.

00:43:09Guest:What?

00:43:09Guest:I mean, I was making, you know, not a lot.

00:43:13Marc:But was the idea of hanging out with the richest man in the world appealing?

00:43:18Guest:Sure, the whole thing sounded like this grand adventure, if in fact that was what was really going to happen.

00:43:24Guest:I also was worried that it was a ruse of some sort and that I was going to wind up in some third world brothel on a bare mattress somewhere addicted to heroin in Bangladesh.

00:43:41Marc:So you knew that was a possibility, but that didn't stop you.

00:43:43Marc:What comforted you into thinking that it wasn't that?

00:43:46Guest:Well, I had an instinct about the woman who hired me and I I just trusted her.

00:43:52Guest:I had a good feeling about her.

00:43:53Guest:And I I think that instinct has saved me a lot of times.

00:43:58Guest:I was correct.

00:43:59Guest:I mean, she really was a trustworthy person.

00:44:02Marc:It was a legitimately high paying prostitution job.

00:44:05Guest:Yes.

00:44:06Marc:And not a ruse for a low paying, horrendous, deadly situation.

00:44:11Guest:Right.

00:44:12Guest:Right.

00:44:12Guest:And I mean, it wasn't even necessarily a prostitution job.

00:44:16Guest:I mean, you know, there were women there who weren't sleeping with anybody who were just sort of couch decorations.

00:44:23Marc:So these guys would just pay to have people.

00:44:25Marc:Well, that happens now even.

00:44:27Guest:Yeah.

00:44:28Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:44:28Guest:There were these parties every night, and they would be for the prints.

00:44:32Marc:So you got there, though.

00:44:33Marc:It's like opulent, private jet.

00:44:35Marc:How did you get there?

00:44:36Guest:We flew business class on Singapore Airlines, which is lovely.

00:44:40Guest:I don't know if you've ever flown Singapore Airlines, but it's a wonderful airline.

00:44:44Guest:And, you know, I don't think I'd ever flown business class.

00:44:47Guest:It was all very she-she to me.

00:44:49Marc:I'm sure they're very thrilled about the commercial we just did for them.

00:44:51Marc:If you're flying high price escorts to Singapore, please fly Singapore Airlines.

00:44:57Marc:The lovely business class.

00:44:58Guest:They actually am sponsored by them.

00:45:00Guest:I don't know if you caught that.

00:45:02Guest:I was trying to be subtle about it.

00:45:06Guest:Very good.

00:45:08Guest:Um, but, uh, you know, I, I wound up, we stayed the night in Singapore then.

00:45:15Guest:And, uh, and now I just remember standing on the balcony, we stayed at the tallest hotel in the world.

00:45:20Guest:And, um, I remember just standing on the balcony and, you know, four in the morning and the light in that part of the world is so gorgeous.

00:45:27Marc:Everything's flat desert, right?

00:45:29Guest:No, it's it's the rainforest.

00:45:31Marc:Oh, really?

00:45:32Guest:Yeah.

00:45:33Marc:That's how much I know.

00:45:34Guest:Yeah.

00:45:34Guest:But it's just Southeast Asia and something about the light is really magical.

00:45:39Guest:Yeah.

00:45:40Guest:And and I just remember thinking like this is this is what I've been waiting for.

00:45:46Guest:You know, like this is the way I've been waiting to feel like there's something really grand.

00:45:51Marc:And far away from New Jersey.

00:45:53Guest:Yeah.

00:45:54Guest:And far from New Jersey.

00:45:55Guest:And it was it was grand and it was far from New Jersey.

00:45:59Guest:And, you know, and it was also sad and, you know, boring and a million other things, too.

00:46:07Guest:How long were you there?

00:46:08Guest:Back and forth for a year and a half.

00:46:11Guest:back and forth yes i i went i i came back to new york but you get there there's how many girls are there will you um well there were only five america well let's see one it's been a little while since i talked about this maybe four american girls was one of the first american girls over there and no one was there against their will no

00:46:33Guest:Not that I know of, but a lot of the Southeast Asian girls didn't speak very much English, nor would they have necessarily told me if they were there against their will, but I don't think so.

00:46:43Guest:Everyone was pretty grateful to be there.

00:46:44Marc:And what was expected of you?

00:46:47Guest:Well...

00:46:48Guest:And that was sort of touch and go.

00:46:50Guest:You know, it was different for every person who was there.

00:46:53Guest:I you know, it's what was definitely expected was that you showed up at these parties every night and the parties would go from 10 o'clock at night till four o'clock in the morning.

00:47:01Marc:Barracks.

00:47:01Marc:Was there was it like camp?

00:47:03Guest:Well, the a lot of the girls stayed at sort of barracks and I stayed in the palace.

00:47:09Marc:So this was you get that.

00:47:11Guest:because the western girls stayed at the palace yeah there was this whole hierarchy which was really interesting and a lot of what i wrote about in some girls was the the class and race issues over there but like could you guys get up in the middle night and go to the kitchen eat out the fridge um in our guest house we could yeah there were eight guest houses did they get you whatever you wanted

00:47:34Guest:Yes, we had servants that would bring us anything from the main house.

00:47:38Guest:We were on the grounds of this palace.

00:47:40Guest:It was this huge compound.

00:47:41Marc:How many dudes did you have to sleep with?

00:47:44Guest:I mean, one.

00:47:44Marc:The prince?

00:47:46Guest:Yeah, just the prince.

00:47:47Marc:The main guy.

00:47:47Guest:The main guy.

00:47:48Marc:The richest guy in the world.

00:47:50Guest:Well, the sultan was the richest guy in the world.

00:47:51Guest:Oh, I slept with him, too.

00:47:52Guest:So it's two.

00:47:55Guest:Yeah.

00:47:56Guest:But but predominantly just with the prince.

00:47:59Guest:I mean, I became that was the whole sort of story is that I kind of ascended the ranks there and became the prince's second girlfriend, like his second favorite girlfriend.

00:48:09Marc:Aside from the one that wasn't paid to be a girlfriend.

00:48:12Guest:They're all paid.

00:48:14Marc:So are these guys married too?

00:48:16Guest:Yeah.

00:48:17Guest:Well, the prince was married three times.

00:48:19Guest:And then he had all these girlfriends.

00:48:21Guest:And sort of four main ones.

00:48:24Guest:And I was in the top two.

00:48:28Guest:I know people are like, is that good?

00:48:29Guest:Is it good to be the second?

00:48:30Marc:But were you emotionally attached?

00:48:33Guest:I was.

00:48:33Guest:I really would have told you at the time that I was in love with him.

00:48:38Marc:So that's why you went back.

00:48:40Marc:It was no longer just a job.

00:48:41Guest:Yes.

00:48:42Marc:I mean, like if you're going back and forth for a year and a half, it's not like, you know, I got to get out of this or I feel bad about myself.

00:48:47Guest:Absolutely not.

00:48:48Guest:Yeah.

00:48:49Guest:I really thought I was in love with the guy.

00:48:51Guest:I mean, I knew that was weird and twisted, but.

00:48:55Marc:But did you also know that there was no way he was going to look at you like that?

00:49:00Guest:Um, well, I guess I thought that as far as he was able to, you know, or within his context, culturally and emotionally, um, that he did, you know, I thought he felt as much for me as he could.

00:49:18Marc:So how did it end?

00:49:21Guest:Um, well, when I left the first time, did he ever ask you to have his children?

00:49:27Um,

00:49:28Guest:No, but that's not something you would ask either.

00:49:32Guest:You I mean, he would happily impregnate anybody.

00:49:35Guest:He had like 50 kids.

00:49:37Guest:I mean, but that was something I didn't want because that's really I mean, you're really giving up your freedom.

00:49:45Guest:Forever.

00:49:46Marc:Big payday.

00:49:47Guest:Yeah.

00:49:48Guest:Great.

00:49:49Guest:You know, for what?

00:49:51Marc:I don't know.

00:49:51Marc:You're talking as somebody who was there doing that for money.

00:49:56Guest:Right.

00:49:56Guest:But I get to go home and have a life and have a date with a real guy.

00:50:02Guest:Oh, how did those go?

00:50:04Guest:And have a career.

00:50:05Marc:How did those dates go when you told them where you've been for three months?

00:50:08Guest:You know, I... Well...

00:50:13Guest:I've had really good luck.

00:50:16Guest:I've had really great boyfriends.

00:50:20Marc:But how many of them could live with that once you were honest with them and still involved in it?

00:50:24Guest:Well, I wasn't still involved in it as far as I knew.

00:50:28Guest:I didn't think I was going back.

00:50:30Guest:So I came home and I met this guy.

00:50:33Guest:His name was Andy.

00:50:35Guest:And I moved in with him.

00:50:36Guest:And I was like, I'm through with that whole life.

00:50:38Marc:But what about this detachment element?

00:50:41Marc:I mean, were you connecting with Andy sexually?

00:50:44Guest:Yeah, you know, I thought so.

00:50:45Guest:I thought so.

00:50:46Guest:And then I really had to look at that a little harder.

00:50:51Marc:Because you were just acting?

00:50:53Yeah.

00:50:53Guest:I wasn't acting.

00:50:54Guest:I mean, also to the best of my ability, I was connecting with him.

00:50:58Guest:But, you know, from what I know now, I think I was pretty warped.

00:51:05Guest:You know, my capacity for emotional connection was not.

00:51:10Marc:A little fucked up from being a member of a paid harem.

00:51:14Guest:And being in a harem from probably from a million things, you know, but mostly from just hating my body and hating myself.

00:51:23Guest:I mean, how do you go from that to really be able to love someone else?

00:51:28Marc:Right.

00:51:28Marc:You saw that as more of a symptom on an arc of symptoms.

00:51:32Guest:I didn't really know that I hated my body and hated myself.

00:51:34Guest:Oh, really?

00:51:35Guest:I mean, I did, but I thought, you know, that...

00:51:40Guest:It was just because something little needed to change.

00:51:44Guest:I hate my body, but that's because I need to lose 10 pounds.

00:51:46Marc:Sure.

00:51:48Marc:Where the fuck does that come from?

00:51:50Marc:Have you figured it out?

00:51:51Marc:Because I have the body image issues of a woman.

00:51:55Marc:And I don't quite I know exactly where mine came from because I could not.

00:51:59Marc:And it sounds like yours is the same that your old man would bust you on it.

00:52:03Marc:Right.

00:52:03Marc:That you were never.

00:52:05Guest:Yeah, I was never I was never good enough.

00:52:07Guest:I was never pretty enough.

00:52:08Guest:I was never thin enough.

00:52:09Guest:And also, you know, mine came from that I had wanted to be a dancer.

00:52:16Guest:And, you know, from just my father and whoever being like, you're too fat.

00:52:22Marc:So let's get to act three.

00:52:23Marc:How'd the shit hit the fan?

00:52:25Guest:With the prince?

00:52:26Marc:With all of it.

00:52:28Guest:Well.

00:52:28Marc:I mean, you know, obviously you transcend enough of this shit to write a book about and get your shit together and have a life and live down the street from me with a child and a husband.

00:52:36Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:52:37Guest:I'm like a suburban mom now.

00:52:40Marc:The new version.

00:52:41Guest:Yeah.

00:52:44Guest:2.0.

00:52:45Guest:Suburban mom.

00:52:47Guest:How did the shit hit the fan?

00:52:48Guest:Let's see.

00:52:49Guest:There were a lot of years in between the end of the memoir and now that I didn't necessarily get into.

00:52:54Guest:You know, I had some struggles with substance abuse and...

00:52:57Marc:But like, OK, so OK, so this ends like, you know, but how specifically did the relationship with the prince end?

00:53:03Guest:You just relationship with the prince.

00:53:04Guest:What happened was I left for nine and I said, I'm through.

00:53:08Guest:I'm not coming back.

00:53:10Guest:And then I changed my mind and I called and begged to go back.

00:53:13Guest:And they brought me back.

00:53:15Marc:Because what you're living back in the real world was too much of a mind fuck.

00:53:18Marc:And it was so much easier to be in that situation.

00:53:21Guest:Precisely.

00:53:22Guest:Yeah, you got it.

00:53:24Guest:Most people are like, why would you ever go back?

00:53:27Marc:There's money, there's food, there's servants.

00:53:29Guest:And it was so simple.

00:53:30Guest:And I was successful.

00:53:32Guest:And, you know, I all I had to do there.

00:53:34Marc:And you liked the guy.

00:53:36Guest:And I liked the guy.

00:53:37Guest:And I didn't have to face really what it was going to be like to try to pursue my goals or rejection, period.

00:53:44Marc:Yeah.

00:53:44Marc:From men, from career goals, from parents, from everything else.

00:53:47Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:53:48Marc:It was like the magic kingdom.

00:53:50Guest:Right.

00:53:50Guest:So I went back.

00:53:51Guest:But when I went back, things just weren't the same between us.

00:53:54Marc:Why?

00:53:54Marc:What happened?

00:53:55Marc:New girl?

00:53:55Marc:You were number four?

00:53:56Guest:You know, probably lower.

00:53:58Guest:I mean, I don't even know that I ranked up at the top.

00:54:00Guest:But no, just no one leaves him.

00:54:02Guest:You don't leave.

00:54:03Guest:You don't leave and then get to come back.

00:54:05Marc:So are you telling me like now, however many years later, there's some old harem girls that are still hanging around?

00:54:10Marc:What are they, servants now?

00:54:12Marc:How do you evolve out of that?

00:54:13Guest:No, there's no there's no harem now because he embezzled like nine billion dollars from his brother from the whole country.

00:54:23Guest:And because, you know, he was the minister of finance.

00:54:26Marc:And basically, I mean, the family's money put into some weird witness protection program.

00:54:31Guest:So now they deported him.

00:54:34Guest:And then I guess he was just recently let back in the country.

00:54:37Guest:But I mean, there was a warrant.

00:54:39Marc:Did you guys stay in touch?

00:54:41Guest:No, no, not after I left.

00:54:43Guest:No, I never have spoken to him.

00:54:45Marc:Did he try?

00:54:46Guest:Did he try?

00:54:47Guest:No, no.

00:54:49Guest:But I was contacted by one of his wives.

00:54:52Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:54:52Guest:Yeah.

00:54:53Guest:And the book is banned in Brunei.

00:54:55Guest:So they do know about it.

00:54:58Guest:Oh, you know, you should be ashamed of yourself.

00:55:00Guest:How could you do this to people who treated you so well?

00:55:05Guest:Oh, when the book came out.

00:55:06Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:55:06Marc:So after the book came out, one of the wives.

00:55:07Guest:Yeah.

00:55:09Guest:Hmm.

00:55:09Guest:Yeah, just this whole you should be ashamed of yourself, you know.

00:55:12Marc:And he said, yeah, I was.

00:55:13Marc:That's why I wrote the book.

00:55:15Guest:Now I'm not.

00:55:16Guest:You know, and it's just, how could you do this to people who treated you well?

00:55:21Guest:And like, as if my goal, as if it had anything to do with them at all.

00:55:25Marc:So, okay.

00:55:26Marc:So, so you write this book about this experience and that book is the one we're talking about, which is some girls.

00:55:32Guest:Right.

00:55:33Marc:And this came out when?

00:55:35Guest:A year ago.

00:55:36Marc:So just a year ago.

00:55:37Marc:But the events took place in the early 90s?

00:55:39Guest:18 years ago, yes.

00:55:42Marc:So why did it take so long to write this book?

00:55:46Guest:Well, you know, I really was trying to not write this book for a long time.

00:55:53Guest:Because I wanted to be taken, you know, seriously as a literary writer.

00:55:59Marc:But wait, but when did all that happen?

00:56:00Marc:So you were what?

00:56:01Marc:How old were you when all this shit ended?

00:56:04Marc:All right, so you're 20, so the book really wasn't in your mind yet, necessarily, right?

00:56:08Guest:No, but you know, one of the things that I actually took away from Brunei, other than the money, was I really started writing there, seriously, because I had these days that were just...

00:56:20Guest:you know, empty.

00:56:22Guest:And I started to write like what I saw around me and not just write these journal entries that are like, you know, you know, Sean is cute and right.

00:56:32Guest:Well, whatever.

00:56:33Marc:I had to suck the prince's dick again today.

00:56:35Marc:Wasn't as bad as yesterday.

00:56:37Guest:No, I mean, like, what people were wearing and what the girls were saying.

00:56:43Guest:And, you know, I started to, like, learn how to take diligent notes.

00:56:47Marc:That's good.

00:56:48Guest:Which is something that still serves me today.

00:56:51Guest:It's still a habit I have, too.

00:56:52Guest:I'm going to go home and start taking notes about...

00:56:54Marc:About this.

00:56:55Marc:But what about this?

00:56:56Marc:So how did that that period of floundering and self-examination post this time in your life?

00:57:04Marc:I mean, you said you got into substance abuse career wise.

00:57:07Marc:Where were you?

00:57:08Marc:I mean, yeah, because I mean, you must have had some sort of emotional upheaval.

00:57:13Guest:Right.

00:57:14Guest:Sure.

00:57:14Guest:I mean, what happened was I had a terrible substance abuse problem, you know, had that whole story, that whole downward spiral.

00:57:24Guest:I had to get sober.

00:57:25Guest:And and then that was when I really started being able to apply some discipline to my writing.

00:57:31Marc:And what about to your I mean, what when you got sober, like how much grief and how much shame were you up against?

00:57:39Guest:You know, the well of shame was a deep one.

00:57:45Guest:But it wasn't, I would say that it wasn't limited to just the sex industry.

00:57:51Guest:I mean, the sort of damage that I did when I was loaded was, you know, to the people who loved me and to myself.

00:58:00Marc:What were your parents doing when you were running back and forth?

00:58:03Marc:Did they know what you were up to?

00:58:04Guest:They knew that I was in Brunei.

00:58:06Guest:They knew that I was a nanny or a personal assistant of some sort.

00:58:14Guest:And then I said, oh, and I'm having a relationship with my employer.

00:58:17Guest:That's how you framed it.

00:58:19Guest:That's how I framed it.

00:58:21Guest:My dad's not stupid.

00:58:22Guest:When I talked to them about the book coming out, he was like, what?

00:58:26Guest:I didn't think you were a diplomat.

00:58:28Guest:We knew.

00:58:29Guest:So they knew.

00:58:33Marc:And now when you told them about the book, did they read the book?

00:58:37Guest:Well, what I did was I told them everything that was in the book about six months before it came out.

00:58:42Marc:Yeah.

00:58:43Guest:I actually went and sat down with them with a New York therapist and said... You had a mediator?

00:58:49Guest:I did.

00:58:49Guest:I had a mediator.

00:58:50Guest:And I said, here is everything that's in this book that's going to be coming out.

00:58:53Guest:I just want you to be prepared.

00:58:54Marc:Everything period or everything about you?

00:58:56Guest:Everything period.

00:58:57Marc:About them?

00:58:57Marc:No, period.

00:58:58Guest:This is everything.

00:58:59Marc:And was some of that new to them?

00:59:01Guest:Um...

00:59:02Guest:You know, very little of it was new to them.

00:59:06Guest:But the fact that it was all going to be coming out in a book, they had known that I was writing a book.

00:59:10Guest:They had known that it was a memoir.

00:59:11Guest:The stuff about them that was in it, I think, is the stuff that's most disturbing to them.

00:59:17Marc:And when how did you first have the conversations about them and why did you have the conversations with them when you told them what you had done?

00:59:27Marc:Was that part of your sobriety?

00:59:28Guest:No, you know, it was just sort of, what are you doing for those six months that you're overseas?

00:59:35Guest:I mean, it was during that time.

00:59:36Marc:And how did they react to you saying that you were basically a concubine of some sort?

00:59:42Guest:You know, I think that they were concerned and they were...

00:59:47Guest:Um, also in some sort of denial.

00:59:49Guest:And then I had all this money and, you know, it was like speaking my dad's language there.

00:59:56Marc:So there was some party like, well, was it worth it?

00:59:59Marc:And he was able to say like, well, that's not bad.

01:00:01Guest:Yeah.

01:00:01Guest:Like, you're not bad.

01:00:02Guest:That's a lot of money.

01:00:03Marc:Was there any part of him that was sort of like, oh, she's adopted.

01:00:08Guest:That's a really excellent question.

01:00:11Marc:This is not our blood.

01:00:14Guest:That's a really, really complicated question.

01:00:18Guest:And maybe I suspect that somewhere in their minds there's a little bit of that sometimes.

01:00:27Guest:You know, I'm also an adoptive mom.

01:00:29Guest:It's very hard for me to sort of talk about.

01:00:32Guest:And it's a complex thing.

01:00:35Guest:And I think that I was their child, you know?

01:00:38Guest:No, of course.

01:00:39Guest:There was no doubt.

01:00:40Guest:But I think that there's part of them that maybe does hang on to that a little bit.

01:00:44Marc:Well, I mean, from your position now as a woman who adopted, you must have some of those concerns.

01:00:52Marc:In terms of, like, what's the genetic history of this person?

01:00:58Marc:Oh, uh...

01:00:58Guest:No.

01:00:59Marc:Really?

01:01:00Marc:Because my brother has three adopted kids.

01:01:01Guest:Yeah.

01:01:02Guest:Oh, really?

01:01:03Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:01:03Guest:Domestic adoptions?

01:01:04Guest:Uh-huh.

01:01:05Marc:I mean, they were actually there for the births and stuff.

01:01:09Marc:And, you know, a couple of them, you know, one of them's a little kooky.

01:01:13Marc:Yeah, sure.

01:01:15Marc:But they know the parents.

01:01:16Marc:Yeah.

01:01:16Marc:Like, of all of their children.

01:01:18Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:01:19Marc:And they sort of knew what they were getting into.

01:01:21Marc:Yeah.

01:01:21Marc:But there's there.

01:01:23Marc:But I just I mean, that's another.

01:01:24Guest:Yeah.

01:01:24Guest:I mean, there's you know, I think that this idea that like somehow like our genetics, like we can control that.

01:01:33Guest:Like if it comes from my genes and I can be sure it's going to be OK or.

01:01:37Guest:Well, no, not OK.

01:01:38Guest:I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be OK.

01:01:40Guest:That's right.

01:01:41Guest:But yeah.

01:01:42Guest:But, you know, I just it's just not about that.

01:01:46Marc:No, of course not.

01:01:46Guest:Of course not.

01:01:47Guest:But I mean, they're like, I just don't I don't think of my son in that way.

01:01:50Marc:Right.

01:01:50Marc:Of course.

01:01:51Marc:No, but I'm saying that like, you know, there are certain things that they know are genetically influenced, you know, alcoholism, depression, you know, certain diseases.

01:01:59Marc:So, I mean, you kind of want to know that stuff.

01:02:01Marc:So when it comes to behavior, I have to assume there's got to be part of a parent that's sort of like, wow, we didn't know where we got her.

01:02:07Guest:And also certainly from that generation.

01:02:09Marc:Right.

01:02:09Marc:That's what I mean.

01:02:10Marc:Yeah.

01:02:10Marc:But you say you found your parents, your real parents.

01:02:13Guest:My birth parents, I did.

01:02:15Guest:I found both of them.

01:02:15Marc:My birth mother, I'm still in contact with.

01:02:18Marc:What drove you to do that, and how did you do it?

01:02:22Guest:It's actually the end of some girls.

01:02:25Guest:I used some of that money that I got, and for nine, I hired a private investigator to find my birth mother.

01:02:32Guest:It was very important to me.

01:02:33Guest:There was this...

01:02:35Guest:way that i just felt like i had been dropped out of the sky and um that also with adoption in that generation there's this whole like nothing existed before you know you're our child nothing existed before there's no that generation where they you know yeah there's this negation of the story not in fashion now it's not in fashion now no you give the kid the choice

01:03:00Guest:Yeah.

01:03:01Guest:And also, like, I just I've preserved every bit of my son's story that I have for him, you know, because it's his story.

01:03:08Guest:It's not mine.

01:03:08Marc:And what was your story?

01:03:11Guest:Well, my birth mother was a dancer and my birth father was an actor.

01:03:16Guest:Get out.

01:03:17Guest:Huh?

01:03:18Guest:I know.

01:03:19Guest:Yeah.

01:03:20Guest:And they met and fell in love in this like regional theater production in Florida.

01:03:26Guest:And he followed her back to Chicago and she got pregnant.

01:03:31Guest:And from then the story kind of gets fuzzy.

01:03:35Guest:But it was before Roe versus Wade.

01:03:39Guest:It was like there was like six months.

01:03:41Marc:They weren't married.

01:03:42Marc:And they weren't married.

01:03:44Guest:And and there was sort of this gray market adoption that happened, you know, through a lawyer.

01:03:50Guest:There's money exchange.

01:03:52Guest:Also very common at that time.

01:03:53Marc:And you're in contact with your mother.

01:03:54Guest:Yes.

01:03:55Marc:So you're like, guess what?

01:03:57Marc:I'm the child you gave up for adoption.

01:03:58Marc:Here's the book about me being a hooker.

01:04:00Guest:Wow.

01:04:01Guest:It was such a hard conversation.

01:04:03Guest:I'll tell you, that was a harder conversation than the one I had with my parents with a therapist in New York.

01:04:09Marc:Maybe you should have kept me.

01:04:11Guest:You know, she was really remarkable.

01:04:13Guest:I mean, she's been incredibly generous and she's a very bright woman.

01:04:17Guest:And she, we had an honest conversation about it.

01:04:21Guest:And I told her, I was like, you know, you might be very uncomfortable with some of the things in this book.

01:04:25Guest:I'd like you to hear it from me that it's coming out.

01:04:29Guest:I don't want you to just like come across it.

01:04:31Guest:You know, I said, you might not want to read it.

01:04:34Guest:If you do read it, that's certainly your prerogative.

01:04:37Guest:If you do and you want to talk to me about it, I'm here.

01:04:40Guest:to talk about it.

01:04:41Guest:And she read it and she said that, you know, it was hard for her to read, but that she decided ultimately was more important for her to know me than to like be uncomfortable and put the book down.

01:04:57Guest:So, uh, so she was happy you found her.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah, she was.

01:05:01Guest:Um, and she's been really appropriate and available.

01:05:06Guest:And I don't have a, uh,

01:05:08Guest:that close of a relationship with her.

01:05:10Guest:It's very casual and sporadic.

01:05:13Marc:Are you and your parents not talking?

01:05:14Guest:We are not talking.

01:05:15Guest:We haven't spoken since the very first article came out about the book in the New York Post a year ago January.

01:05:24Marc:How does that make you feel?

01:05:25Guest:Oh, it's sad.

01:05:27Guest:It's really sad.

01:05:28Guest:But, you know, like I was saying to a friend the other day, you know, there was so much stuff I was afraid of publishing this memoir.

01:05:35Guest:And when I wrote it, I wrote it as if no one was ever going to read it, which I think is the only way to write a book like this.

01:05:43Guest:Otherwise, you know, you just aren't going to lie.

01:05:47Guest:Yeah.

01:05:47Guest:So I just wrote it as if no one was ever going to read it.

01:05:50Guest:And then there was a ton of stuff I was afraid of.

01:05:53Guest:And it all happened.

01:05:54Guest:Every bit of it happened.

01:05:55Guest:And it was great.

01:05:57Guest:It's been great.

01:05:58Guest:I mean, for the most part, it's been such an amazing experience publishing this book.

01:06:02Guest:And, you know, and it's really sad that my parents can't get behind who I am.

01:06:09Guest:Have you tried?

01:06:10Yeah.

01:06:10Guest:Well, my mother told me that she did not want to have any more contact with me.

01:06:14Guest:So I sort of feel like it's her.

01:06:17Guest:The ball's in her court now.

01:06:19Guest:And, you know, she asked me to keep my distance.

01:06:23Guest:So I have.

01:06:24Marc:How long has it been?

01:06:25Guest:A year and a half.

01:06:27Guest:But, you know.

01:06:28Marc:They never met their grandkid?

01:06:30Guest:They have.

01:06:30Guest:They have met him.

01:06:31Guest:That's the sad part.

01:06:32Guest:Is that they were really in his life for the first year that he was here with us.

01:06:38Guest:And then they've sort of disappeared.

01:06:40Guest:So they're all in the first photo album.

01:06:44Guest:So I'm not sure how I'm going to explain that.

01:06:46Marc:They'll come back around.

01:06:48Guest:Yeah, I think so.

01:06:49Guest:I mean, I'm super.

01:06:51Guest:I'm really great, you know, and I'm and I'm a great daughter and I'm a great person and I'm a good communicator.

01:06:57Guest:And I think they will.

01:06:58Guest:They are certainly they're entitled to have their feelings about this.

01:07:04Guest:It's not an easy thing.

01:07:05Guest:And, you know, I can't control what the reaction is going to be.

01:07:09Guest:And and I understand it to understand that they're hurt by it.

01:07:12Guest:And I understand that they're angry.

01:07:14Marc:Yeah.

01:07:15Marc:So how did you end up with Weezer?

01:07:20Guest:I'm not with Weezer.

01:07:21Guest:I am with Scott Schreiner.

01:07:25Guest:He's the bass player for Weezer.

01:07:27Guest:And how did I end up with him?

01:07:28Guest:I met him almost 10 years ago now.

01:07:31Guest:Bowling.

01:07:33Hmm.

01:07:33Guest:I met him at a bowling party.

01:07:35Guest:And he was real cute.

01:07:37Guest:And he was not very nice to me.

01:07:40Marc:Oh, perfect.

01:07:41Guest:Yeah, it was perfect.

01:07:44Guest:And my friend said, that is the nicest guy in all of Los Angeles.

01:07:48Guest:I have no idea why he's being such a cock.

01:07:51Guest:And it turned out it was because he didn't like it when girls showed up at dude's bowling night.

01:07:57Guest:Because he thought they ruined the whole thing.

01:08:00Guest:They caused trouble.

01:08:01Marc:I thought it was a bowling issue.

01:08:02Marc:It was a bowling issue.

01:08:03Marc:Oh, good.

01:08:04Marc:I'm glad you passed the bowling issue.

01:08:05Guest:And you know what?

01:08:06Guest:It was true.

01:08:06Guest:I totally messed up dude's bowling.

01:08:09Guest:It does not happen anymore.

01:08:10Marc:Oh, really?

01:08:12Guest:Yeah.

01:08:12Marc:There's no bowling in his life now?

01:08:14Guest:There's no bowling.

01:08:15Guest:He's like teaching our son to roll balls down the...

01:08:18Marc:There's a bowling alley down the street.

01:08:21Guest:I know, but my kid cannot have large balls, heavy balls, and be around other people.

01:08:30Marc:How old is the kid?

01:08:31Guest:He's three and a half, and he's awfully rambunctious.

01:08:35Marc:Yeah, you've got to make sure it's not heavy and big.

01:08:37Marc:He can hurt himself or others.

01:08:38Guest:Others are, yeah.

01:08:40Marc:That's cute.

01:08:42Marc:Did you do a domestic adoption?

01:08:44No.

01:08:44Guest:No, international.

01:08:45Guest:My son was adopted from Ethiopia.

01:08:48Marc:Ooh.

01:08:48Marc:Yeah.

01:08:49Marc:Pretty exotic.

01:08:50Guest:It was amazing.

01:08:51Marc:Yeah.

01:08:51Marc:Ethiopia.

01:08:52Marc:I never heard that one.

01:08:54Guest:Yeah.

01:08:54Guest:It's a great place to adopt from.

01:08:56Marc:Yeah?

01:08:56Guest:It's a little more complicated now.

01:08:58Guest:We sort of got in under the wire when it was a little bit of a new program.

01:09:03Guest:But it's a wonderful place to adopt from because their caregiving style there is very highly attached.

01:09:08Guest:So the kids get tons of love.

01:09:10Guest:Well, that's good.

01:09:12Marc:So let's talk like in terms of the new book, Pretty, which is a novel.

01:09:16Guest:Yep.

01:09:17Marc:Which is your first novel.

01:09:19Guest:It is my first novel.

01:09:20Marc:Was that more difficult to write?

01:09:21Guest:It was actually written first.

01:09:23Guest:And they were both equally hard to write.

01:09:25Guest:They both sucked to write.

01:09:27Guest:Yeah.

01:09:27Marc:Well, how did you learn?

01:09:28Marc:I mean, at some point, did you go to you went to school to?

01:09:32Guest:I did.

01:09:32Guest:I got my master's in creative writing.

01:09:36Marc:Where?

01:09:37Guest:At Antioch.

01:09:38Marc:That's a two year program.

01:09:39Guest:It's a two year program.

01:09:40Marc:I've heard of this.

01:09:41Marc:And so you like it.

01:09:43Marc:You were doing odd jobs, doing drugs.

01:09:45Marc:You got sober.

01:09:46Marc:You got your shit together and you went and got your master's at what age?

01:09:49Guest:30 yeah or no older 32 probably when I got my master's when I started but you know I was always writing I just it just took me getting sober to be able to actually like write a book which is you know it's hard to overcome the fear and get in it I've been avoiding it

01:10:12Guest:It's hard.

01:10:14Guest:It's real hard.

01:10:15Marc:I wrote one book.

01:10:16Guest:Yeah.

01:10:16Marc:And then like it was years ago.

01:10:18Marc:The weird thing about writing is that, I mean, you obviously did all right for yourself, but there's not a lot of money in it initially.

01:10:24Guest:No.

01:10:25Marc:And there might not be money.

01:10:26Guest:Forever, necessarily.

01:10:27Guest:Yeah.

01:10:28Marc:You better love it.

01:10:29Marc:It's nice to have it out there.

01:10:30Guest:I mean, I don't know that I love it.

01:10:32Guest:You know, I always say that people.

01:10:34Guest:Yeah, it's my thing.

01:10:35Guest:That's the thing is, you know, it's I mean, it's one of my things.

01:10:38Guest:I also perform, you know, but we're doing what?

01:10:42Guest:Well, like I just did a one woman show and I do a lot of storytelling.

01:10:46Marc:So we're doing a show together.

01:10:47Guest:We are.

01:10:47Guest:We're doing a storytelling show together.

01:10:49Guest:I'm looking forward to it.

01:10:50Marc:It'd be fun.

01:10:50Marc:What are you going to tell your story about?

01:10:52Guest:uh what's the subject again i don't remember is there a subject there is it's like uh apologies or really i don't know i don't know i don't have my story yet apologies that's every day with me i'm always apologizing but i mean i i love doing live storytelling and and that sort of performative stuff but it's all kind of the same thing for me it's all storytelling

01:11:15Marc:What's the novel about?

01:11:17Guest:The novel is about a young woman who survives a terrible car accident and is in Los Angeles.

01:11:24Guest:She's partially disfigured.

01:11:26Guest:She's living at a halfway house in recovery and attending beauty college and just trying to piece her life back together.

01:11:34Guest:So it's funny.

01:11:36Marc:Yeah.

01:11:37Guest:Sad.

01:11:37Marc:Sounds hilarious.

01:11:38Guest:Yeah.

01:11:40Guest:Beauty school's funny.

01:11:41Guest:Did you go to beauty school?

01:11:42Guest:I did.

01:11:44Marc:Holy shit, you did a lot of weird things.

01:11:46Guest:Beauty school.

01:11:46Guest:I did a lot of weird things.

01:11:48Guest:Well, I started writing the book when I was in beauty school.

01:11:51Marc:Oh, this is one of the other things I want to talk about.

01:11:52Marc:How did you reevaluate the idea of...

01:11:59Marc:sex work and that sort of de-objectifying feminism, how do you reevaluate that now?

01:12:07Guest:Like, I mean, do you still... Right, so more like sex-positive feminism?

01:12:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:12Marc:Well, you said that you have different thoughts about that.

01:12:15Guest:I do.

01:12:15Guest:You know, I really when I was in the sex industry, I had this very sort of Pollyanna take on it.

01:12:22Guest:And, you know, it's this empowering thing.

01:12:26Guest:And I think it can be or there are certain aspects of it that are.

01:12:31Guest:And I do think that it helped me through a difficult time in my life.

01:12:34Guest:And then it's certainly, you know, given me a lot of stories to tell.

01:12:37Guest:And I'm a storyteller.

01:12:39Guest:But.

01:12:40Guest:I don't think ultimately that when I had those opinions that I knew what the long-term effects were going to be.

01:12:51Guest:That I knew what it was going to be like to try and be in a 10-year relationship with a man, with a partner who I want to share my life with and what it was going to be like to try and be present in my body for that.

01:13:04Guest:I never learned to be present in my body.

01:13:06Guest:I learned how to not be present in my body.

01:13:08Guest:That's what I'm good at.

01:13:10Guest:And so I think that anything that you have to really shut off a part of yourself in order to do is not ultimately going to be good for your emotional growth and who you are as a person.

01:13:26Guest:It certainly wasn't for me.

01:13:27Guest:And I don't recommend it to people.

01:13:29Marc:Well, that's interesting because that's sort of the...

01:13:33Marc:That sort of explains a kind of like a stripper comedian connection, because in order to be funny, you know, which is what I do, you know, and what I've done my whole life.

01:13:41Marc:And you definitely you can't go up there and cry now, can you?

01:13:47Marc:Right.

01:13:47Marc:I don't think you could cry if you're on an escort call unless it was called for.

01:13:51Guest:Yeah, you know, no one wants the hooker to cry.

01:13:56Guest:You just want her to leave, right?

01:14:00Guest:Just leave.

01:14:01Marc:Were you ever the crying hooker?

01:14:03Guest:No, God, no, no.

01:14:04Guest:I was a lot the crying girlfriend, though.

01:14:07Marc:Oh, yeah?

01:14:08Guest:Yeah.

01:14:08Marc:You're probably a good crying girlfriend.

01:14:11Marc:Yeah.

01:14:12Marc:But you guys are good now?

01:14:13Guest:We're good, we're great.

01:14:15Marc:That's awesome.

01:14:16Marc:We seem pretty good.

01:14:18Marc:You feel like we, you think we did it?

01:14:20Marc:Did we do enough?

01:14:20Guest:I think we did it.

01:14:21Marc:I wish we knew what we were gonna be talking about, that storytelling thing, apologizing.

01:14:26Guest:It's regrets, apologies.

01:14:30Guest:Regrets.

01:14:31Guest:Regrets, something, begging.

01:14:33Guest:What's your biggest regret?

01:14:35Guest:Oh God, my biggest regret.

01:14:39Guest:It's a little bit pathetic, but I guess my biggest regret is that I left New York before I really gave myself a chance as a performer.

01:14:55Guest:You know, that I just kind of like walked out on that dream when I was so young and things were going really well for me in that way.

01:15:02Guest:And, you know, it was like rather than find out

01:15:06Guest:Whether I was going to fail or succeed, I just walked away.

01:15:09Guest:And I regret that.

01:15:11Marc:It's coming around, though.

01:15:13Marc:Yeah.

01:15:13Marc:Looks like you're doing it now.

01:15:14Guest:I am.

01:15:14Marc:So, you know, it's... And were you part of that, like, groovy burlesque scene for a while as well?

01:15:20Guest:I was.

01:15:20Guest:I was a dancer with a velvet hammer.

01:15:22Marc:Oh, I remember them.

01:15:23Guest:Yeah.

01:15:23Marc:Weren't there comics involved in that?

01:15:25Guest:Yeah.

01:15:26Guest:Craig... Uh-huh.

01:15:27Guest:Yeah.

01:15:28Marc:Blaine Kapatch.

01:15:29Guest:And Blaine, right.

01:15:30Guest:Mm.

01:15:31Guest:Yeah.

01:15:32Guest:Yeah.

01:15:32Marc:Good luck with everything.

01:15:33Guest:Thank you.

01:15:34Marc:How was the iced coffee?

01:15:36Guest:You know, it was remarkable.

01:15:38Guest:Great iced coffee.

01:15:39Marc:Thanks for coming.

01:15:40Guest:Thanks for having me.

01:15:47Marc:Okay, that's our show.

01:15:48Marc:That was interesting.

01:15:50Marc:Was it not?

01:15:52Marc:What else?

01:15:53Marc:Thank you for listening.

01:15:54Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.

01:15:56Marc:Look at the episode guide if you're curious who's been on.

01:15:59Marc:Pick up an app for the iPhone, iPod, Touch, iPad, Droid, your computer.

01:16:05Marc:Buy some episodes.

01:16:07Marc:Kick in a few shekels.

01:16:08Marc:Go to the merch section.

01:16:09Marc:There's still some Coop posters left.

01:16:11Marc:There's a bunch of new stuff for the holidays.

01:16:12Marc:Tote bags.

01:16:13Marc:My new CDs up there.

01:16:15Marc:Do it.

01:16:16Marc:It's good stuff.

01:16:17Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop.

01:16:20Marc:Yeah, why not?

01:16:21Marc:And if you want to go see my friend Matt Graham, that's Thursday, 7.30 p.m., 78 Fifth Avenue, 10th floor, Kimball Studio.

01:16:28Marc:I don't know what's going to happen up there, but it'll be intense.

01:16:33Marc:That I do know.

01:16:34Marc:Boomer.

01:16:36Marc:Boomy.

01:16:38Marc:Come on, man.

01:16:38Marc:Let's do this.

01:16:39Marc:Boomer.

01:16:40Marc:Come here, Boomy.

01:16:43Marc:You know, I get that cat to do that once, and I can't seem to get him to do it again.

01:16:46Marc:I just... All right.

01:16:49Marc:I'll talk to you later.