Episode 224 - Chris Rock
Guest:are we doing this really wait for it are we doing this wait for it pow what the fuck and it's also what the fuck what's wrong with me it's time for wtf what the fuck with mark maron
Guest:Alright, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what-the-fuckers?
Guest:What-the-fuck buddies?
Guest:What-the-fuckineers?
Guest:What-the-fucking-ucks?
Guest:What-the-fuckstables?
Guest:What-the-fuckadelics?
Guest:What-the-fucking-fucks?
Guest:What-the-fucky-pie-wall-streeters?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm out in the garage.
Guest:It's Marc Maron.
Guest:This is WTF.
Guest:I'm drinking coffee.
Marc:It's a little late in the day for that at the time of this recording, but I am drinking it right...
Marc:oh pow wow i just shit my pants just coffee.coop why not why not throw that in at the beginning here why not throw in the fact that i'm going to be at the punchline in san francisco tonight if you're listening to this on thursday november 3rd through saturday november 5th at the punchline in san francisco if you want to uh be part of that that would be sweet
Guest:Yeah, what a day we've got.
Guest:You're wondering what's on the show?
Guest:Are you wondering what's on the show today?
Guest:What is this show about?
Guest:Who is on this show?
Guest:Well, I'll tell you what, on the show, I'm going to have this guy on the show.
Guest:I used to make these jokes about...
Guest:I should only develop scripts for John Cusack.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because guys have such a mental block writing scripts for black guys.
Guest:So if they just run for John Cusack, the script would be done already.
Guest:And he'd write jokes, and he'd think anything about the fucking jokes.
Marc:Oh, so you're saying that when a writer has a mind writing for a black guy, he's like, God, do I know the language?
Guest:Yeah, it's all this bullshit.
Guest:It's like, dude...
Guest:What the fuck is different about my fucking life?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Yep, that's right.
Guest:It's not a hard voice to recognize.
Guest:That was Chris Rock.
Guest:He was talking to me in the elevator as we went up to his office.
Guest:We had a very interesting talk.
Guest:It was great to sit down with Chris for a couple of reasons.
Guest:I was thrilled to talk to Chris.
Guest:I've known Chris a long time.
Guest:I had specific questions that I was curious about with Chris.
Guest:And what I found heartwarming about it was that his memory of the people that were working primarily at the comic strip in New York when he was starting out.
Marc:Now, if there's anything you can glean from this podcast outside of what comes from the conversations is that.
Marc:Comedy is a community.
Guest:The community of comedians is real.
Guest:And there are hundreds of us.
Guest:And we all cross paths or we almost cross paths around the world, across the country all the time.
Guest:And it's been this way for years.
Guest:This was a mind-blowing thing for me as I get older to really hear Chris talk about guys I haven't thought about in years, but guys I watched when I was a kid, not on TV, when I was a kid starting in comedy.
Guest:And I've recently been reading these articles at the WFMU blog.
Guest:I think it's called the WFMU's Beware of the Blog.
Guest:There's this guy, Cliff Nesterhoff, who has been writing these amazing pieces
Marc:about sort of the grittier era of comedy in the 40s, 50s, and 60s revolving around New York.
Marc:But he recently wrote an article about a guy named Jack Roy and a guy named Joe Ansis.
Marc:Now, the amazing thing about comedy, even at this time, even at the time in the 50s and the 40s, was there were hundreds of comics around.
Marc:There were hundreds of comics hanging around, trying to get on TV, trying to get on radio, trying to get a gig.
Marc:There were all these one-nighters and clubs and little places you could go.
Guest:The Borscht Belt was still sort of intact.
Guest:But there was still a community of wayward, awkward, angry, socially retarded, funny guys hanging around trying to get stage time.
Marc:Just like today in a lot of ways in this last one, this last article he wrote called The Schleppers about Jack Roy and Joe Ansis as really being the fathers of modern comedy.
Marc:Now, this is deep comedy nerd shit.
Marc:I mean, this isn't just Mr. Show or Tim and Eric or even Monty Python.
Marc:I mean, this is going back to the roots of what became modern stand up.
Marc:And if you read the article, what you'll learn is Joe Ansis and some of you know this already was Lenny Bruce's roommate.
Marc:And some people think that Joe Ansis was actually the engine that drove Lenny Bruce.
Marc:Lenny Bruce was just this sort of a Jewy mimic with a good beat, a good rhythm, good pace.
Marc:But Joe Ansis had this amazing intelligence with his humor and he was not really capable of getting on stage.
Marc:Now, Joe Ansis and Jack Roy were best friends.
Marc:Now, Jack Roy was this act, I think, in the 50s, maybe the late 40s, probably the 50s, that was just too angry to get on stage, too depressed, too dark, too fucked up to really get on stage.
Marc:They used to get high together.
Marc:They used to hang out, not unlike comics today.
Marc:All these guys hung out.
Marc:But, you know, Pop wasn't around as much.
Marc:But Jack Roy and Joe Ansis were buddies.
Guest:Jack Roy quits comedy, and he...
Guest:He goes into the aluminum siding business, and him and Joe Antzis still hang out.
Marc:They're both doing aluminum siding, from the best I can tell, smoking reefer and still writing jokes because they stay in the game.
Marc:So they started selling these jokes to all the cats who were hanging around New York at the time out of the back of their car in Jersey.
Marc:I don't know why you would have to sell jokes out of the back of your car, but they had a briefcase, they had notebooks or whatever, but they were writing jokes, and they sort of defined...
Marc:You know, that moment in comedy's history where it broke away from schtick and broke more into personal point of view stuff.
Marc:Now, the interesting thing about this story outside of Joe Ansis being the engine of Lenny Bruce, perhaps, is that Jack Roy couldn't stay out of the racket.
Marc:He was doing aluminum siding.
Marc:He was out for like 10 years and then he comes back.
Marc:changes his name because he wants to go on stage again and that is who Rodney Dangerfield is Jack Roy became Rodney Dangerfield Rodney Dangerfield one of the greatest sort of unsung heroes of modern comedy but the reason I'm going off on this is that
Marc:I read these articles now and because of WTF and because of my relationship with so many comics and talking to so many comics, you realize you're part of this legacy.
Marc:Yeah, I just emailed with Richard Lewis.
Marc:I'm not dropping names.
Marc:I sent him the article because you can see a direct chain.
Marc:You can see a direct chain and a natural evolution of the community that is comics.
Marc:And there's all kinds of guys that did comedy that nobody knows about.
Marc:I don't know where they are, but there are hundreds of them.
Marc:And I remember some of them.
Marc:But these guys have always been there.
Marc:And one of the great things about talking to Chris was that he brought up these guys.
Marc:And these guys are at the front of his brain still.
Marc:And they're at the front of Eddie Murphy's brain.
Marc:And they're in front of all of our brains.
Marc:Whatever happened to that guy?
Marc:I mean, I've lived in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston.
Marc:I've seen three or four, obviously four, different scenes, different points in my career.
Marc:And I remember so many guys.
Marc:And we're all part of this.
Marc:And it's pretty exciting.
Marc:It can be sad.
Marc:It can be frustrating.
Marc:It's a little heartbreaking sometimes.
Marc:But we're all part of this amazing community that is comedians.
Marc:And it's been that way for generations.
Marc:I highly recommend reading those pieces.
Marc:And I highly recommend right now listening to me and Chris at his office in New York City just a few days ago.
Music
Marc:One of my first memories of you is actually when I was a doorman at the Comedy Store, 1987.
Marc:Goddamn.
Marc:You pulled up.
Marc:It wasn't a Corvette, dude.
Marc:It was like a Dusendorf.
Guest:Yes, it was Richie Tinkin's car.
Guest:Richie Tinkin was...
Guest:Had a cocaine problem at the time.
Guest:And he was just, it was like I was supposed to just drop him off.
Guest:And he was just so fucked up that weekend.
Guest:I ended up with the car for like three, four days.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, I thought for some reason in my mind at that moment, I'm like, is that Eddie Murphy's car?
Marc:No, it was Richie Tinkins.
Guest:Who the hell is Richie Tinkins?
Guest:Richie Tinkins was Eddie Murphy's manager and owner of the comic strip.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And it's one of those weird things.
Guest:That car, that incident, a lot of comics didn't like me back then.
Guest:And I think me pulling up in that car, like that was my car.
Marc:Well, I think there was also that.
Marc:There was also sort of like, you know, whose car is that?
Marc:Is he on the payroll?
Marc:I mean, is he taking care of?
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not the story.
Guest:No, no, but I definitely remember.
Marc:The stink eye?
Marc:i definitely remember the stink eye from a lot of guys i mean what was that so that was 87 so you'd only been in it for i was probably in it like three years something like that yeah well how did that happen i mean how what was uh because i remember when i started doing stand-up in new york there was always that newspaper article of you in the comic strip like you know 12 year old chris rock he was just sitting there and i always looked at it and i thought like you know how the fuck does a guy start that young and where did how did that happen
Marc:What was the excitement?
Marc:I mean, three years in, usually people haven't gotten any shit together.
Guest:I didn't have shit together.
Guest:I mean, I could figure out a set.
Marc:You had Richie Tinkin's car.
Guest:I had Richie Tinkin's car.
Guest:Eddie Murphy thought I was funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, but, you know, it's still, I probably didn't get SNL until 10 years after that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So... Where'd you come from in terms of how'd you decide to do stand-up initially?
Yeah.
Guest:The stand-up initially was... I always loved stand-ups.
Guest:Cosby, the whole thing, and Pryor, and all that stuff.
Guest:But Murphy, being from Brooklyn, being...
Guest:People forget Murphy's like the first real young comic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean that in a sense that most young comics wore suits and fucking sweaters and tried to be grown men.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And Murphy's like he was trying.
Guest:He didn't try to be a.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He tried to, he was actor's age.
Guest:So that was, I mean, even when I think of Jerry Seinfeld, not until he got on his sitcom did he decide to be the man boy.
Guest:Early on, you know, he's got the blazer on.
Guest:He's trying to be... That was every comic.
Guest:We all tried to be fucking 45 and smoke a pipe.
Marc:But when you saw Murphy outside of just being... Because you what?
Marc:Did you go... What were you like in high school?
Marc:I mean, you started when you were in high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So Murphy, to me, was like... And you saw him live?
Marc:Is that where you first experienced him?
Guest:No, just saw him on SNL.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:SNL and Delirious and all that stuff.
Guest:But to me, he had... He was connected to, you know, like...
Guest:Curtis Blow and all this rap shit going on in the Bronx.
Guest:He had something to do with all of that.
Guest:Culturally.
Guest:Culturally.
Guest:So that's when I started thinking, well, maybe I'll do some stand-up.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:That's a thing.
Guest:And it was weird, too.
Guest:I had a deal to do a rap record.
Marc:Before you started stand-up?
Guest:Before I started stand-up.
Guest:Where did that come from?
Guest:I made demos.
Guest:I rapped.
Guest:I DJed before I did stand-up.
Guest:There's pictures of me with turntables.
Guest:I had a deal with Atlantic or some subsidiary of Atlantic Records to do a rap record.
Guest:I realized I couldn't rap.
Guest:I couldn't sing.
Guest:Now, by the way, if I'd known how much DJ's made right now, I'd probably still be a DJ.
Guest:The DJ wasn't paying that much money.
Guest:So the stand-up thing, I don't know.
Guest:And I loved stand-up.
Guest:I just loved it.
Guest:I loved it.
Marc:And when you first started, were you doing long form or were you just doing jokes or you don't remember?
Guest:Just doing jokes.
Guest:I didn't know any better.
Marc:Because I remember seeing you early on and it's something like, however your personality evolved over time.
Marc:Like, I'm sort of...
Marc:It's interesting when you're trying material, the difference between you trying out material and doing material is vast.
Guest:Oh, it's vast.
Guest:It is vast.
Marc:And like when you were younger, you didn't like the, the, what became the Chris rock persona, I don't think happened till what?
Marc:1994.
Guest:Uh, yeah, you could say that.
Marc:And, and so like initially you were like, when I talked to you and I've run into you over the years, when you sit down with you one-on-one, you're, you're, you're thoughtful and you know, you think before you talk and sometimes you don't keep eye contact.
Marc:Then when you get on stage, it's like, yeah.
Marc:Obviously you got, in some respects, you got taken for a ride before you were ready to go for a ride.
Guest:I definitely got taken for a ride before I was ready to go for a ride.
Marc:So what happened with Murphy and why were you driving Ken Tinkin's car?
Guest:I was driving Tinkin's car.
Guest:I mean, people have heard this story before.
Guest:I'm at the comic strip one night and Eddie Murphy is there.
Guest:And basically there were no black comics on the bill.
Guest:And Lucien, I wasn't even, I don't even think I was a regular at the time.
Marc:Where you were what, 18, 19?
Guest:Probably 19, 20.
Guest:And I was stacking up chairs.
Guest:That was my thing.
Guest:Me and a guy, Mark Rader, out of cancer.
Guest:So stacked chairs after the second show to get stage time.
Guest:So that way we could do late night.
Guest:And so I would get there early.
Guest:I would watch all the comics.
Guest:And kids today, because I'm that guy, right?
Marc:What happens?
Marc:Kids today.
Guest:I'm always telling guys, you guys don't watch.
Guest:When I go into clubs, everybody's hanging out outside and shit.
Guest:When I was coming up, we fucking, wherever there was an empty seat, when the place got packed, we got almost pissed because that meant some people had to wait outside.
Guest:We watched every fucking body.
Marc:Do you ever sit and think about how long you've spent watching insecure guys in front of brick walls?
Dude.
Guest:I know so many people's acts.
Guest:I know fucking every Dennis Wolfberg joke and every Joe Bolster joke and every Gary Lazor joke and Mark Cohen and Jack Cohen.
Guest:Jack Cohen.
Guest:Everyone you mentioned, half the people who are listening, if not more, will be like, who the fuck is he talking about?
Guest:I know all these guys' jokes, man.
Guest:I know their acts inside and out.
Guest:I know Fred Stoller and Stu Trivacs.
Guest:Stu Trivacs, the Orthodox guy with the Botox.
Guest:Yes, yes, Stu Trivacs, the Sandy Koufax of stand-up.
Guest:Not going to work on Friday.
Guest:Yeah, and I watched all these guys.
Guest:Just take it in, take it in, take it in, take it in.
Guest:So anyway, I was there, and Murphy, and I guess he'd seen his ninth, you know, fake Seinfeld guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He goes into any black comics.
Guest:And they said, oh, we have Chris Rock, like, lying, because I was not supposed to be on the film.
Guest:You were a late-night comic.
Guest:Yeah, I was a late-night comic, but, you know.
Guest:And they put me on, and I had a really good set for that film.
Guest:point of my career.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, he had, you know, this is not Dr. Doolittle Eddie Murphy.
Guest:This is Leather Suit Elvis Eddie Murphy.
Marc:And he's weird because, like, I mean, I guess he started, like, I never knew him as a stand-up.
Marc:Like, to me, when I first saw him, it was Saturday Night Live, and Delirious came later, but I never knew him.
Marc:He was a stand-up.
Marc:But he was like, um... Like...
Guest:Did you see him doing Balazzo gigs?
Marc:He was.
Guest:Like, for real.
Guest:I mean, I didn't know him as a stand-up, but the stand-ups I know know him as a stand-up.
Guest:Joey Vega will tell you stories of being in a condo with Eddie Murphy.
Guest:You know what's weird?
Guest:Whenever...
Guest:Whenever I'm around Eddie, if I'm around him like a couple of days in a row, at some point he asked me about Fred Stoller.
Guest:Because that's like one of the last guys he did a gig with.
Guest:That's like the last best of his old life.
Guest:You could tell him that Fred's fairly accessible.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's like, what's Fred Stoller doing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we're in his $50 million mansion.
Guest:What's Fred still?
Guest:Because they did a gig together.
Marc:I just talked to Fred.
Marc:He's okay.
Marc:He's all right.
Guest:Is George Kalfa still working?
Marc:You know, just... Really, that's fucking endearing, and I'm glad to hear that.
Guest:I mean, these people, they're cemented in your mind.
Marc:Of course they are.
Marc:And when you hear somebody dies or someone is in trouble that you haven't seen in 20 years, you're like, oh, no.
Guest:I'm like, how's Nancy Redman?
Guest:I want to know how Nancy Redman is.
Guest:I just heard from Nancy Redman.
Guest:I want to know how Nancy Redman's doing.
Guest:I've done so many gigs with Nancy Redman.
Guest:She just Facebooked me.
Guest:It's like she came up on a podcast.
Guest:I think she Facebooked me, too.
Guest:Nancy Redman, Bob Gallup, you know, all these people.
Guest:Gallup, I don't know what's happening with that guy.
Marc:He's the one guy who's sort of like, what is going on with Bob Gallup?
Marc:I wonder if that guy's all right.
Marc:Okay, so Eddie sees you, and then everything changes.
Marc:You're three years in, for fuck's sake.
Guest:I'm like three years in.
Guest:I mean, and I got to hang out.
Guest:I mean, you got to realize, too, he was like rolling with Ali.
Guest:He had like...
Guest:12 people with him anyway.
Guest:Is that a black thing?
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:I mean, Sandler rolls like that.
Guest:Does he?
Guest:I mean, not with bodyguards' guards, but he has, you know... Because I was like, I got it in my mind that it's... No, you know what it is?
Guest:It's a... A celebrity thing?
Marc:A family?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:It's a...
Guest:say lower middle class whatever it's a we're not rich thing oh that's that's basically what it is in the sense that you have hangers on or in the sense because i mean when you really think about it any blue collar white guy's got a pretty decent posse with him too right but they're not the posse that says could you go in first and make sure everything's okay in there yeah i mean
Guest:they do that too.
Marc:They just don't.
Guest:It's just not as a pronounced.
Marc:The jobs aren't as defined.
Guest:They're not as defined.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Marc:You're the hair guy.
Marc:You're the guy that gets a drink.
Guest:Kevin James got boys.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm just not that kind of guy.
Marc:So it always baffles me.
Marc:And I've been a satellite comic before.
Marc:That's what Becker at the Comedy Store used to call him, the people that would hang around Dice or hang around Kennison.
Marc:Yeah, Dice.
Marc:Come on, what the hell?
Guest:Come on, Dice, Kennison.
Guest:I guess that's right.
Guest:I mean, but it's weird because I know the young comics listen to this.
Guest:I always tell comics, they always ask me, you know, guys ask me questions.
Guest:And I'm like, dude, you hang with too many people.
Guest:You have to be alone.
Guest:You have to live in your head.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I just see comics going to clubs like girls going to a fucking club.
Guest:too many people around it's like we're all going to the club it's like shut what the fuck are you doing you gotta go by yourself you gotta fucking take a drive you gotta listen to music you gotta fucking get in that zone think you gotta live in your i'm gonna take some bites of this food you gotta you gotta live in your head man
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I live in my head too much, and you live in your head as well.
Guest:I still live in my head.
Marc:Did you go to college or anything?
Guest:I didn't go to college.
Guest:Actually, I did like a year of community college only because when I took my GED, it was at a community college.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So to me, it was like an extension of the GED.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But no, no real.
Guest:I don't have a lot of schooling, Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you've got an aggressive mind and you've got an aggressive desire to learn.
Guest:Well, my father drove a truck for the Daily News, New York Daily News.
Guest:So there's always a lot of newspapers in my house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So can you get me?
Guest:I'm sorry, Brandon, so I want to mess it up.
Guest:Can you get me a, is there an iced tea in there?
Guest:Not a diet, like a regular one.
Guest:If not, just get me a water or something.
Guest:Um, yeah, was there water there?
Guest:Give me water.
Guest:Oh, okay, I got water there.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Um, all right, so you get hung up with the, where you get, like, does he take you under his wing?
Marc:I mean, that's sort of the question.
Guest:I mean, you had... No, I mean, it was like any big brother, like, relationship.
Guest:It was like...
Marc:With Eddie.
Guest:Yeah, you just learn more from watching than anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's not like, I mean, the thing I realized about Eddie, Eddie, even though he's like so much more famous than everybody.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's only like five years older than me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So.
Marc:So there was a bond.
Marc:It wasn't like some old dude who was like.
Guest:Yeah, it wasn't like some old dude.
Guest:And he's working on his own career.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Still.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, even then he was like, you know what I mean?
Guest:In his mind, but he was very, you know, Eddie Murphy, you know, I can go down a list.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, Arsenio Hall show, you know, that's Eddie giving Arsenio break and letting Townsend direct Raw and, you know, coming up, you know, coming up with I'm going to get you sucker.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And like a lot of shit.
Marc:So he was like the...
Marc:He was everybody's portal in all those black comics that were already banging their head against the wall in Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, he was a part of that community and I didn't know any of those guys just being in New York.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So that was that was really cool.
Guest:Like, you know, I didn't know who the black comics in New York.
Guest:Rondell Sheridan.
Guest:Nice guy.
Guest:Great guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Joyner.
Guest:Joyner was a little more accomplished than me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah, it wasn't like a lot of guys.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:Mike Ivey.
Marc:Mike, yeah.
Marc:But what's interesting to me is all the guys you're talking about have been banging their heads against the wall in Los Angeles.
Marc:But there's this entire other world of black comedy that I barely know about.
Guest:And it was a point in time
Guest:Well, they wouldn't even put up two black acts within the same hour at a stand-up club.
Marc:Why is that?
Guest:The same reason they wouldn't put up two women.
Guest:They would think this weird bullshit that... Yeah.
Guest:So if Tracy, you know, if Joyer went on at 8 o'clock, I can't go on till 11, because we're obviously going to talk about the same shit, and we're not.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We're not.
Marc:And you think that still happens?
Guest:I don't think it happens that much.
Guest:I don't think it happens at all, really.
Guest:Not in New York, anyway.
Guest:People know me and Tracy Morgan don't have the same act.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You never know what's going to happen with Tracy Morgan.
Guest:You never know.
Marc:When you're in conversation with him or when he's on stage.
Guest:He's the last madman.
Marc:He really is a madman.
Marc:I mean, when they told me about, when I heard about all that stuff that went down with what he said, in my mind, it's like, yeah, no, that was not a plan.
Marc:He was just speaking his mind, and it blew up in his face.
Guest:It blew up in his face.
Marc:But do you think that when you met Eddie, did that stifle your career alongside of helping it?
Marc:Because there was some point where you became a born again stand up and that, you know, it seemed like you were taken on this ride.
Marc:And then after the ride ended, you were like, fuck, I better focus on stand up.
Guest:Um, I mean, it made people see me too soon.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You can definitely be seen too soon.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You can't really be seen too late.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you can be seen too soon.
Marc:Sometimes you just got to hope you'll be seen again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it did that.
Guest:But I mean, I don't look at it as a negative.
Guest:I mean, yes, it put a bullseye on me and it made...
Guest:Put me under more scrutiny, I guess.
Guest:But I got to see a lot of shit.
Guest:I got to be out in L.A.
Guest:I'd never been to L.A.
Guest:I mean, I'd never been on a plane until I went out, until Murph took me out there.
Guest:And I got to see him work.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:I got to see him do... Offstage.
Guest:I actually got to see him work offstage.
Guest:I got to see him, like, get ready for the Raw tour.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, so I got... You know, it was like the Kid in Bronx Tale.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I got to, like, really sit around and fucking watch a superstar, a black superstar, fucking go about his business.
Marc:And what'd that look like?
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:I mean, you know, and some of the things I emulated and some of the things I like, okay, I can't, I'm going to stay away from that.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like, what did you emulate?
Guest:What did I emulate?
Marc:Because your work ethic is quoted.
Marc:You know, I mean, I've got, you know, friends like Louie and there are people that, that they always quote you with little nuggets about work ethic, about generating material, about keeping busy.
Marc:Like, you know, you are a worker.
Marc:You're not a guy that sits around and says like, you know, maybe I'll get another hour.
Marc:I mean, you somehow develop this hour-a-year ethic that very few of us can abide by.
Guest:It's not a year.
Guest:It's like an hour every three years.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, you better tell Louie.
Guest:Yeah, Louie, I don't know what the fuck Louie's doing.
Marc:He's doing the hour-a-year plan.
Guest:I was like, what are you doing, man?
Guest:I'm like, take a rest.
Marc:He's doing everything.
Marc:Pretty soon he's going to have his own studio to make what he wants to be.
Guest:I don't know what the fuck he's doing.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:It's like, dude, six months off.
Marc:Yeah, and he needs to.
Marc:I think he's got a fear of that.
Marc:So you're with Eddie.
Marc:You're like 19, 20 years old, and you're watching this guy, and you're making notes in your head like, I got to do that.
Guest:Yeah, I'm watching him watch his, I'm watching him, one of my coolest memories is actually sitting, you know, first of all, you gotta realize I watched Delirious every fucking day for years.
Marc:You did, as a kid.
Guest:Yeah, and I'm sitting there watching him watch himself as he's getting ready for the tour.
Guest:So he puts in a tape, Eddie Murphy live from Hawaii.
Guest:Not even, it wasn't even like a tape he shot.
Marc:Stationary camera, like a comic strip tape?
Guest:Like a comic strip tape.
Guest:It's in front of, you know, 20,000 people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In what's the Aloha Bowl?
Guest:Like the same place Elvis shot the Hawaii special, he shot...
Marc:Practice.
Guest:He shot a show there with a white leather suit on, like with the same.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:He did that on purpose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And watched him watch that and take notes and then watch him on stage getting ready for the Raw tour.
Marc:What was his joke construction process like?
Marc:I mean, was he watching for beats?
Marc:Because some of us, I mean, it's hard to watch yourself.
Marc:I mean, was he watching, did he, like, was he writing all his own material?
Guest:He was writing all his own material, yeah.
Marc:And did he have people around throwing shit in?
Guest:People, you know, for tags.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that's what friends are for, for tags.
Marc:Right, that's right.
Guest:It's only when they're not your friends, they go, I should get a writing credit for that tag.
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:That's what comics do.
Guest:It's like, hey, that thing you did.
Marc:I said something to you once, and I don't know if you remember it.
Guest:Didn't you give me a tag, like, in the comedy store parking lot one night?
Marc:Oh, maybe I did.
Marc:Yeah, I think I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't remember what it was.
Guest:I can't remember what it was, but I remember talking to you in the parking lot in the comedy store.
Marc:Yep, yep.
Marc:I can't remember what that was.
Guest:About a particular joke.
Marc:Yep, yep.
Marc:You were working on something.
Guest:That's what we do.
Marc:Of course, of course.
Guest:It's like, hey, you ever think of this?
Marc:Yeah, did you ever think of that angle?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You got to fill your head with something.
Marc:So Eddie had those guys around, too.
Guest:Yeah, he had some comics around.
Guest:I might have got a line in.
Guest:Who knows?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what was the primary lesson you learned?
Marc:That you just had to work your ass off?
Guest:That you gotta fucking work it.
Guest:I mean, like, this guy's the best I ever seen, and, like, he's worried, and he's going to the fucking club, and he's going over shit, and he's got a list, and he's, like, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's meticulous about it.
Guest:And...
Marc:And what were the things you didn't want to emulate?
Guest:Well, I mean, people think there's this assumption that there's guys and there's walkie-talkies.
Marc:You're not that guy.
Guest:No, I'm like, I don't want this.
Guest:I made that decision.
Guest:Like, I don't really want all these people.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I don't really need a party.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you got SNL, how old were you then?
Guest:I was probably about 25, 26.
Guest:and that was a that was a huge deal that was hey that was you're following in your your mentor's footsteps and yes i was me and sam i got it actually he got caught as a writer yeah we're both there tell the story we're auditioning for snl in chicago yeah dana gould is on the show i just worked with him the other night and he's better than both of us he's hilarious he's hilarious and we were like
Guest:Why the fuck are we here?
Guest:He was so funny.
Guest:He was turning into people.
Guest:What the?
Guest:This guy is ridiculous.
Marc:He's still good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like Dana Gould.
Marc:He could do characters.
Marc:He's got a fast ball.
Marc:Yeah, really fast.
Marc:Fast brain.
Marc:So you and Chandler are there.
Guest:So I can never talk about Saturday Night Live without going, Dana Gould was better than us that night.
Guest:I don't know what Lauren saw, didn't see, I don't know.
Marc:Well, what was your experience with Lauren initially?
Marc:I mean, was there that weird meeting?
Guest:It was that weird meeting where they tell you to have the show, but they don't say it in case they want to change their mind the next day.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They don't want to be on record as saying, we told you you had the fucking show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I loved it, man.
Guest:I never got into the whole it's too competitive thing.
Marc:Well, you guys were sort of aligned.
Marc:I mean, it was you and Spade and Sandler and Farley, right?
Yeah.
Guest:And you're all stand ups.
Marc:I talked to Norm MacDonald recently and he thought that there was definitely like you guys felt that there was you know, there were the guys that come from sketch and then the guys that come from stand up and the stand up sort of stuck together because they didn't do that shit.
Marc:I mean, they had nothing against them, but they knew that what their strengths were on some level.
Guest:the sketch people were more prepared to be on the show, but the stand-up people were more prepared to write shit for the show.
Guest:Like we fucking knew where jokes were.
Guest:When you're performing, and I'm not dissing anybody that does sketch, but when you're performing, and I learned this from just doing a play, when you perform in a theater,
Guest:There's appreciation just from performance that you never get in a comedy club.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like it's either joke or not.
Guest:Either the shit was funny or it wasn't.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I think we had a tougher skin, but you know.
Guest:Who the fuck's funnier than Will Ferrell?
Marc:That's true.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:When you started to do the character roles, what was your confidence around acting?
Guest:I didn't have confidence then.
Guest:To this day, I don't really do characters.
Guest:You're Chris Rock.
Guest:I'm kind of me.
Guest:It took me a while to accept.
Guest:Only now do I accept I don't do characters.
Marc:Because you can.
Marc:You can accept that now.
Guest:I can accept it, yeah, I can just... You don't feel like you have to do it.
Guest:I don't feel like I have to do it.
Guest:And some of my favorite actors are just figuring out how, hey, Robert De Niro doesn't, you know, it's just this much more
Guest:He's not, you know, Daniel Day-Lewis.
Guest:He doesn't absolutely become another person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He just becomes another version of Robert De Niro.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and it's great.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's not the same guy.
Guest:The guy in Goodfellas is not the guy in Cape Fear.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But they're both Robert De Niro.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The basis is there.
Guest:And then there's the guys, you know, when you're at something like Saturday Night Live, you can feel real inferior to a guy like Mike Myers who becomes a totally different person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, oh shit.
Marc:And there's part of you that thinks like, I'm never going to be able to fucking do that.
Guest:I'm never going to, this shit, you know.
Marc:Yeah, it's beyond me.
Guest:It's beyond me.
Guest:Dana Carvey is like, this shit is beyond me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why am I even here?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how did that sort of manifest itself?
Marc:Because ultimately...
Marc:Why did you leave?
Guest:Why did I leave?
Guest:I left.
Guest:I left or was fired.
Guest:No, I think I left.
Guest:I got fired because I was leaving to go to Live in Color.
Marc:What was that decision?
Guest:The decision was, like, the culture's changing.
Guest:And I'm not a part of it.
Marc:In what way?
Guest:This shit is getting hip.
Guest:This shit is getting blacker.
Guest:This shit is getting fucking rappier.
Guest:This shit is like, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, back then, SNL was like, I mean, it's still a pretty white show, but it's not, back then it was, I mean, when I got hired, I was the first black guy in like eight years.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And...
Guest:Lemon Color was just hip.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She was like, this shit is hot, man.
Guest:I just, I wanted to be in an environment where I didn't have to really translate the comedy that I wanted to do.
Marc:Or be the representative of race on a show.
Guest:That too.
Guest:That too.
Guest:So, you know, I had these instances where they wanted me to do certain things at SNL.
Guest:I was like, no, I'm not doing it.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:You know, whatever slave sketch or you bangy tribesmen or whatever.
Guest:Where, not that I thought they were racist, I just thought that if you're the only black face that's going to be seen for an hour and a half, it just doesn't... You know what I mean?
Guest:It just...
Marc:There's got to be more for me to do.
Guest:Or another black person.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But just one of me.
Guest:If there were two of us.
Guest:It feels racist.
Guest:It's not racist.
Marc:It just feels that's all you see.
Marc:Well, it also speaks to the fact that even if they're satirizing the idea of what Townsend did, where that black roles are always limited to criminals or slaves, even if they were satirizing that, they're still putting you in that situation.
Guest:If you're on Living Color and you bang your tribesmen, there was another black thing before you and one after.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's a context.
Guest:There's a context.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that isn't racism and your mind is just the way things are?
Guest:I mean, what is that?
Guest:By the way, the people at SNL are the nicest people ever.
Guest:I'm friends with everybody there.
Guest:So it wasn't that.
Guest:It was just...
Guest:I mean, it was the same thinking that went on in the comedy clubs.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Shit was all new for everybody.
Guest:But the reason for wanting to be on Living Color was just hip, man.
Guest:And I had, you know, history showed that I had a sense of humor in me.
Guest:But I was never going to be able to do that stuff at SNL.
Guest:The stuff I did on my show, I never got to do that stuff on SNL.
Marc:And that's just because of the structure of that show?
Marc:And you didn't have enough of a voice?
Guest:It's not just me, you understand?
Guest:The show's just not...
Guest:I remember Wanda got hired to do... Wanda Sykes?
Guest:Wanda Sykes, my love.
Guest:She got hired to do a sketch show after my show, after she was on the Chris Rock show.
Guest:I think it was Steve Martin was producing it.
Guest:And she was happy, and I was happy for her.
Guest:But...
Guest:It's like, I know that world.
Guest:I know those white people.
Guest:And I was like, Wanda, all they're going to want you to do are things involving race or impressions of famous black people.
Guest:There's like, you know, what did she say?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah, I think it was no.
Guest:And then like three months later, that's all they wanted.
Guest:And that's all they do at SNL right now.
Marc:Right.
Guest:For black, you know what I mean?
Guest:For black characters.
Guest:It's like, it's impressions of famous black people are something to do with race.
Marc:But it's odd because Eddie didn't do that.
Guest:No, Eddie didn't do that.
Guest:I mean, he did a couple.
Marc:Right.
Guest:No, no, he did.
Guest:He was right there in the thick of it with everybody else.
Right.
Marc:So he wasn't fighting for what became him.
Marc:He wasn't fighting to do Jerry Lewis or white characters.
Marc:It just happened to be.
Guest:He just happened to be so much better than everybody in the cast.
Guest:They had to run with it.
Marc:So you think that that decision to move to Living Color was your first real sort of awareness of who you were as a comic and what it meant to be a black performer at that time?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was just...
Marc:Like, there is a growth of identity, you have to admit.
Guest:There is a growth of identity.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't, it's weird, because I didn't want to be on for fucking, you know, and they're great people.
Guest:I would have been on there for, shit, Meadows were up for 11 years.
Marc:On SNL.
Guest:Yeah, I would have been there fucking eight, nine years.
Marc:But there was no point, there was nothing inside you that said that, you know, now I can, you know, represent the creative black community.
Marc:There was no part of you that thought that.
Guest:No part of me at all.
Guest:I just wanted to be, I just wanted a system that I, my, you know, I just wanted an offense, you know.
Guest:Some guys work different offenses, you know.
Guest:In all sports, it's the system.
Guest:And I just knew this wasn't the system for me.
Marc:How much was race part of your act before, like, when you were doing stand-up, right before SNL and during SNL?
Guest:It was a part of my act.
Guest:I'm not going to... It's always only been, I'm going to say, 20%.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even if you watch any of the specials, okay, there's some race stuff in the beginning.
Guest:By minute 20, whatever...
Guest:It's current events and relationships, man.
Marc:But before, let's say before Bring the Pain and before SNL or during SNL, what was your audience?
Marc:I mean, in terms of the black audience?
Guest:I didn't have an audience.
Guest:I mean, there were people that knew me because I was...
Guest:When did I do New Jack City?
Guest:I did New Jack City while I was on SNL.
Guest:Actually, the year before I did SNL, I did New Jack City.
Guest:It was such a low-budget movie, I didn't think it was going to be anything.
Guest:People were impressed with that.
Guest:It did a lot to this day.
Guest:People still talk about it.
Guest:And I was in the movie, I'm going to get you sucker.
Guest:And actually, I had a little part in Beverly Hills Cop 2.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:so i mean i wasn't it's like you think you're famous then but you i wasn't really famous i was famous enough to get in a club so living color you were on it was you only on for a few months right yep and did you think that because i got canceled did that then were you panicked i mean did you feel that it was a mistake
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, it was weird sitting in my house watching SNL while my friends were on TV.
Guest:It really was.
Guest:I'll never forget that first show.
Guest:It was Charles Barkley was the host.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Nirvana was the guest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was just like, wow.
Marc:You were like, I should be there.
Guest:Well, I didn't have a job, too.
Guest:Besides the aesthetic, it was just like, oh, shit.
Guest:I could be making four grand this week or whatever the hell they were paying me.
Marc:And I'm not.
Guest:And I'm not.
Guest:I'm getting a spot at the strip for 40 bucks.
Marc:And is that where the panic set in?
No.
Guest:You assess things.
Marc:Right, but you didn't have the HBO show yet.
Guest:I didn't have the HBO show.
Guest:I had nothing.
Guest:I was on SNL.
Guest:I was making enough.
Guest:Play the clubs.
Guest:Have good weekends.
Guest:Made my bonuses.
Guest:I was doing fine.
Guest:It wasn't that.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:My main goal at that point in my career was to become George Wallace.
Guest:George Wallace.
Marc:You wanted to be in Vegas every week?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:George Wallace, Don Mayera, Bobby Slayton.
Marc:Big club comic.
Guest:Big club comic.
Marc:Rich Ginny.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Got it.
Marc:You just wanted to work every weekend, make your bonuses, make a living.
Marc:Make my bonuses.
Marc:Spend your life on the road.
Guest:If I could have become Rich Jenny or Georgia, I would have been the happiest.
Guest:That was the goal.
Guest:So to be a working comic.
Guest:Be a working comic.
Guest:It just went beyond that.
Guest:But I'm still that.
Marc:No, no, but it went beyond that.
Marc:But that is exactly what you did.
Marc:But you somehow or another...
Marc:Like all points converged on this, you know, on a moment that not everybody gets that moment.
Marc:But you did the you did one hour special, which was good.
Marc:And it probably got you to where Jenny was.
Guest:I did a half hour special, won the Cable Ace Award.
Guest:Never won anything in my life.
Guest:Then got the hour special, which was bring the pain.
Guest:Yeah, bring the pain.
Marc:And that thing changed everything.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Yeah, it was ridiculous.
Guest:I'm still like, what the fuck?
Marc:Now, when you were like, this is like the something that's been going in my mind is that because, you know, you're you're you're kind of an open minded guy and, you know, you want to learn things.
Marc:How big of an effect did your relationship with Nelson George have on on developing your sensibility around modern conversations around race?
Guest:It had I mean, honestly, it's the biggest thing.
Guest:It's the best thing that happened to me.
Guest:And it's weird.
Guest:It's kind of what separates me from a lot of guys.
Marc:It was amazing because I remember years ago in the 80s, you know, reading him in The Voice and then reading, you know, I remember reading one thing where he mentioned you, that he went jogging with you or you were walking or something.
Marc:And I said, holy shit, you know, it's that relationship.
Guest:It is that relationship.
Guest:It separates me from guys I won't name because I actually, because I don't know any other smart people.
Guest:He was my introduction to smart people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I met Nelson because I wanted to, I'm trying to find somebody to write CB4 with.
Guest:I had this idea, rap, spinal tap, whatever.
Guest:And a friend of mine said, you should see Nelson.
Guest:And I knocked on his door.
Marc:And he was primarily a culture and music writer for Village Voice, Billboard Magazine.
Guest:Exactly, and made a bunch of money writing a Michael Jackson biography that he wrote it before Thriller for nine bucks, and then Thriller comes out, and he, in the book's house, lucks up.
Guest:Anyway, and we wrote CB4, and we became friends writing that movie, and, you know...
Guest:That relationship.
Guest:Like I know a smart person who introduced me to other smart people.
Guest:And I mean, I knew smart comics, but I didn't know.
Marc:Intellectuals.
Guest:I didn't know intellectuals.
Guest:And then Nelson introduced me to this world of intellectuals, of black intellectuals.
Guest:and uh like stanley and cornell and everybody and cornell bill stephanie and the hudlins and you know like all these people so you were brought into this think tank almost about contemporary i was brought into it again i'm henry i'm the kid in bronx tale again so i'm the kid in bronx tale around eddie murphy which taught you how to be a stand-up and then i'm the kid in bronx tale around these guys like okay just absorbing absorbing just you know my biggest talent is actually i know when to shut the up uh-huh
Guest:I just shut up and listened and, you know, took it all in.
Marc:Because in my mind, from looking at your work as an outsider, it seemed that that transition, you know, from elevating the conversation, you know, about race that you were actually being witness to, you know, intellectually, and how that informed your comedy was really the heart of that bit that defined your career.
Guest:Because that and...
Guest:It's like, okay.
Marc:Because you wouldn't have done that bit on Bring the Pain like 10 years before that.
Marc:It wouldn't have even really occurred to you.
Guest:Probably wouldn't have occurred to me.
Guest:But the thing, you know what it is too, man?
Guest:It's like...
Guest:When you have no ambition, you don't really feel racism.
Guest:You don't even feel it.
Marc:You're just another guy trying to get by.
Guest:You're just poor and you live where you live.
Guest:You live the effects of racism, but you don't feel racism.
Guest:When you start wanting to do shit and wanting to be taken serious, that's when the shit hits you in the face.
Guest:You're like, oh shit.
Marc:Like an example of that would be just the experience in retrospect at SNL or anywhere?
Guest:Anything like that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If I was just happy to be there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:With no ambition.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't have wanted to leave, you know, aesthetics and all this stuff.
Marc:So that knowledge started to inform your work.
Guest:He got started before my work.
Guest:Another thing with SNL.
Guest:So you got, and they were great, but it's harder for a black guy on SNL.
Guest:Okay, you would say me and Rob Schneider are equal comedians?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fine, right?
Guest:But if Rob Schneider is talking to Downey or whoever the people that pick sketches or pitching stuff, because they share a culture...
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Me and Sarah Kulture, they have kind of the same mothers and kind of the same dads.
Guest:They grew up in the same... There's a shorthand.
Guest:That happens.
Guest:And you know what I mean?
Guest:Like they get the little things about them that make you funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And when you're the black guy, no one gets the little things.
Guest:They just get the hits.
Marc:Which are bordering on stereotypical.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They don't get the album tracks.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So, you know, they don't really.
Marc:So in and of itself, it's a pigeonhole and it honors a stereotype because it's shallow.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it's racist in a way.
Marc:Yeah, it's not racist.
Marc:It's just their lack of understanding of the nuance of the culture.
Guest:That's a good way of putting it.
Guest:That's a good way of putting it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And so when you meet people and work that that would make that would also answer to, you know, so losing living color.
Guest:So you go to Live in Color or even my own show and I don't even... I'm pitching an idea and I don't even have to finish the idea for the person that I'm talking to to know what I'm going for.
Guest:And Nelson was on your show, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, okay, let's try in... They know because we share a culture.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you also hired a lot of white guys to write on there.
Marc:A ton of white guys.
Guest:More white guys than black guys.
Guest:And to their credit, they immersed themselves in the culture.
Guest:And by the way, we were... It wasn't just... You know...
Guest:I liked my show.
Guest:I liked that it was... Not that it was mixed comedically, too.
Guest:It wasn't just mixed racially.
Guest:It was like... So we'd have the fucking hard, over-the-top bit, and then we'd have some sly, weird Chuck Sklar shit.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Weird Louie stuff.
Marc:Some weird Louie shit.
Marc:Weird Tom Agnes stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, those are my...
Guest:My favorite stuff is really the weird shit, to tell you the truth.
Marc:But when you started doing the Chris Rock show, and you were aligned with Nelson, and you had a new brain about race, then all of a sudden you become put in the position to be a spokesperson on some level, or at least somebody who's going to address this on a weekly basis.
Guest:I mean, I never bought into that stuff.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's why I say you were put in the position by other people.
Guest:You can...
Guest:I mean, to me that's... you know...
Guest:Lauryn Hill, probably Dave on some level.
Guest:Chappelle?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It happens with a lot of black entertainers.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, they think they have to be a spokesman.
Marc:It's like, money... Do they think that or are they put in that position?
Guest:Are they asked questions that are... Well, people try to put you in that position, but you don't have to go where they tell you to go.
Guest:Hey.
Guest:I mean, I know I have influence.
Guest:Don't get me wrong.
Guest:I know people, you know, watch me and feel a certain thing, but...
Guest:I also have a job, and my job is to just be funny.
Marc:But you also do projects now, smaller projects, that directly deal with intellectually and in a comedic way, like, what is it, Good Hair?
Marc:Is that what that is?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, but I like doing that.
Guest:I mean, put it this way.
Guest:You got Bill Cosby and you got Dick Gregory, both amazing comedians and all that.
Guest:You know, Dick stopped doing...
Guest:you know, stand-up or whatever, comedy for a while to be an activist.
Guest:And, you know, my hat's off.
Guest:He's got a lot of courage.
Marc:He's got a lot of interesting stories.
Guest:He's got a lot of interesting stories.
Guest:One of the first books I ever read was Nigger by Dick Gregory.
Guest:But Bill Cosby might have gotten more done just telling jokes.
Guest:The bigger you get, the more shit you can get done.
Guest:I think that, yeah.
Guest:And you have a responsibility.
Guest:Your real responsibility is to get big.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Well, Bill Cosby himself is probably the...
Marc:And I just really watched it in a deep way within the last couple of years.
Marc:I think it's one of the most, that's how stand-up should be done.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not like, you know, after years of Pryor and everything, I love Pryor.
Guest:Bill Cosby's the greatest stand-up ever lived.
Marc:It's true, right?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:I mean, don't get me wrong.
Guest:To me, it's like, you know, it's the argument.
Guest:It's always Bill Cosby, Richard Pryor.
Guest:Richard Carr is Willie Mays.
Guest:Willie Mays is the most exciting player ever.
Guest:No one argues that.
Guest:Yes, most exciting, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:Bill Cosby is Hank Aaron.
Guest:He's got the most home runs.
Guest:He's got the most RBIs.
Guest:He's got 3,900 hit.
Guest:It's like, buddy.
Guest:What do you think of the aging Cosby?
Marc:The aging Cosby, because he came down on you, didn't he?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he didn't know any better.
Marc:Do you talk to him about it?
Guest:You know, he had me over for lunch one time, and... What was that conversation?
Guest:He just kind of, like, shoved it off the, my people told me this thing, and... He didn't address it personally?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:There was none of that sort of, like, I don't know what you think you're doing.
Guest:What was the conversation?
Guest:You know, there was with Cosby, like, he was definitely, he was definitely pissed, but when he saw, and I'm just speculating.
Guest:About language, correct?
Guest:Primarily?
Guest:Language, and I remember I had that big tossed salad man bit, and I had some dirty shit in that pregnant pain special.
Yeah.
Guest:Because in the beginning of Bring the Pain special, all these album covers pop up, all these great comedians, Cosby and Woody and Pryor and Eddie and all that shit.
Guest:And they wanted me to take it out.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, but I'm speculating Cosby was mad, but when he saw how I was embraced by, you know, whatever you want to call it, intelligentsia, is that the word?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:He kind of, okay.
Guest:But Cornell and Stanley said it was fine, so he's going to... Yeah, I kind of, I get the sense of that.
Guest:I get the sense of that.
Marc:And he sent me some books.
Marc:Oh, so he was trying to sort of passively suggest that maybe you should rethink how you present blackness?
Guest:He sent me some books.
Like, what?
Marc:How not to say the N word.
Guest:I used to have the books up here.
Guest:Send me some Baldwins.
Guest:A couple of cool things.
Guest:We're cool now.
Guest:We're great.
Marc:Yeah, that's good.
Guest:We're great.
Guest:I mean, I think I honored him.
Guest:I was there at the Kennedy Center and gave him his Mark Twain Award or whatever.
Guest:We're cool.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Cool.
Guest:I mean, I got a call the other day just about some charity event he couldn't make it to.
Guest:Could I do it instead of him?
Guest:You know, whatever.
Marc:And do you feel like because I have these conversations, you know, like I talk to Kamau a lot that there do you is there when you look at the black comedy community, which there is one.
Guest:It's just a comedy community.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:But I mean, you know, is there, what is that?
Marc:Because I've always tried to deal with this myself because I'm interviewing a lot of comics.
Marc:And I have a hard time getting to some people.
Guest:Bruce Bruce.
Guest:You got Bruce Bruce yet?
Marc:I want Bruce Bruce.
Marc:I want Earthquake.
Marc:I want Cat Williams.
Guest:I love Bruce Bruce.
Guest:Cat is going to be hard to get.
Marc:No, I know.
Guest:Earthquake, I love those guys.
Guest:I love Bruce Bruce.
Guest:I love Earthquake.
Marc:What's your relationship with them?
Guest:I think we're cool.
Guest:I mean, I'm older than those guys, or not maybe physically older, but doing it longer than them, so...
Guest:It's not like we did a lot of gigs together or anything.
Marc:Right, but there's a difference between you and Richard Pryor and Eddie and Bill Cosby in terms of having a sort of crossover act, but there's definitely people that draw black audiences and play the black audience almost exclusively.
Guest:No, but here's what you got to realize.
Guest:We're in the era of cable television.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:Because this could apply to the white guys, too.
Guest:We're in the era of cable with the era of the internet.
Guest:And me, Cosby, whatever, even Chappelle.
Guest:Chappelle's like the last great comic.
Guest:The last great multi-whatever black comic that appeals to everybody.
Guest:Because Dave and me, we're from an era of 12 channels on television.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:I get that.
Guest:At our core, that's what we grew up with.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it was that way until we were fucking 20 years old.
Marc:Right.
Guest:With 12 fucking channels on television.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And when there was 12 channels on television, everybody had to appeal to everybody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I get that.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:That was your way of thinking.
Marc:You couldn't... And that determined a lot of racial dynamics.
Guest:Who the fuck's blacker than James Brown?
Guest:Nobody's blacker than James Brown.
Guest:He appealed to every... There's nothing blacker than James Brown.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:Earthquakes black?
Guest:Shit.
Guest:James Brown is black.
Guest:But there was a showmanship.
Guest:There was a... He appealed to everybody.
Guest:And...
Guest:People that are from that era are broader, and now you got
Marc:People go for the specific audience, and that's enough.
Guest:Earthquake's audience is no bigger or smaller than Demetri Martin's audience.
Guest:I love Demetri.
Guest:Demetri's one of my favorites, too.
Guest:But everybody's niched out now.
Guest:That's just what it is.
Marc:In 2011, you're going to say to me that there are no color lines, just niche marketing.
Guest:I'm just saying, if...
Guest:what's my that's my man oh come on who's the guy from seattle jake johansson jake johansson okay i'm sorry cat williams is playing 5 000 people jake johansson's playing 1 000 people or 700 in a club jake johansson ain't pop the 5 000 is pop man it's like jake johansson's the niche yeah
Guest:Not the guy in front of 5,000 people.
Guest:Ron White.
Guest:That's not niche.
Guest:That's not a color line.
Guest:The Ron White people are totally separate from the Jake Johansson people.
Guest:They have nothing to do with each other.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:Those worlds don't cross at all.
Marc:But there are such things as black rooms, black comedy circuits.
Marc:But guess what?
Guest:20 years ago, 40 years ago, all that shit mixes up.
Guest:Andy Griffin...
Guest:One of the first great stand-ups.
Guest:People don't remember Andy Griffith was a great... As country as anybody, as blue-collar as anybody, was appealed to everybody.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I get it.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Wasn't Roy Rogers a stand-up, I believe?
Marc:Yeah, Roy Rogers, yeah.
Marc:Will Rogers.
Guest:Will Rogers is a stand-up.
Guest:As country as you can get.
Guest:Fucking Hatton.
Guest:They appealed to everybody.
Guest:That shit's done.
Marc:No, I get that.
Guest:That era's done.
Guest:I just think it's done.
Guest:And...
Marc:But don't you think on some level that in this age of Internet and cable television, did you say that it insulates people more than brings people together?
Marc:I mean, you know, I understand that everybody's got people more.
Guest:I mean, by the way, I think more.
Guest:I mean, just as many white kids are like Kevin Hart, just black kids.
Marc:Well, he's like he's the next guy.
Guest:White college kids loved him from Kevin Hart.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know.
Marc:But even like in the past, though, when you look at, you know, the black comics like Pygmy Markham, Moms Mabley, all those cats, you know, were not playing for everybody until later in their careers.
Guest:Yeah, like Satchel Paige, but not until they were allowed to.
Guest:Once they were allowed to...
Guest:That it's okay.
Guest:Red Fox, Chitlin Circuit.
Marc:He's so fucking funny.
Guest:The day they let him on regular TV, it was never the same.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's 12 channels.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'll follow it all the way through then.
Marc:I'll go with you on that.
Guest:Red Fox.
Marc:Arguably one of the funniest people ever.
Guest:Probably that it was weird.
Guest:He's not the greatest comedian.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:But he's funny.
Marc:He's one of those guys.
Guest:He's funnier than everybody.
Marc:You know, like there's a few of those guys around where, you know, you see those people in life and especially in comedy that there are certain guys that cannot help but be funny always.
Marc:No matter what, even if they're being serious.
Guest:I don't know two Red Fox jokes.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But just, you know Red Fire.
Marc:But Red, please.
Marc:Everything about it.
Guest:I don't want to go on stage after him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't want no parts of that.
Marc:Speaking of that, I just followed your brother, and that was no easy trick.
Guest:My brother fucking every night, man.
Guest:Kills.
Guest:My brother's a fucking Rage Against the Machine.
Marc:Yeah, I hadn't seen him in a long time, and I never work at the Laugh Factor.
Marc:I went there for my first set, and he did 35 minutes before my 15 or 20, and I was like, oh, fuck.
Guest:Kills.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Every night.
Marc:How many members of the Rock family are doing stand-up now?
Marc:Three.
Marc:Three.
Marc:Two brothers and a cousin?
Marc:Or one brother and a cousin?
Guest:Yeah, two brothers and a cousin.
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:With me.
Marc:But Tony's doing real well.
Marc:Sherrod does well.
Marc:And then the other brother started recently, right?
Marc:Yeah, he just started.
Marc:Which one is that?
Marc:Jordan.
Marc:Now, what's their decision on that?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:If that's what they want to do, fine.
Guest:I don't... I try to...
Guest:The thing is, I'm still doing my shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's not like people are like, oh, man, are you mentoring?
Guest:Are you doing money?
Guest:I'm writing jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I'm trying not to bomb.
Marc:And you get along with those guys?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love them to death.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I got Lincoln tickets.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:But, you know, and if they ask a question, I'll answer it.
Guest:But I'm not like.
Marc:Do they ask questions?
Guest:Never.
Guest:never do this on my own but i would i would answer anything but i'm out here trying to you know i'm trying to get my next hour and a half together to go on the road and you know and when you're trying to not be you know become a banquet fucking you know i call them banquet hall comedian yeah i call them the banquet comedians that
Guest:Only kill at, you know, the March of Dimes and shit.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Only kill at the room full of people that love them or that's a charity.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Marc:Now let's talk about that, the issue of, you know, Chris Rock running material in a small club versus Chris Rock, you know, going on stage.
Marc:at an arena because I've seen you go on stage and you almost sleep through some jokes.
Marc:Like I've seen you with new jokes where you won't put any inflection on them.
Marc:You'll literally just say them.
Marc:And in my mind, I think it's just to see whether the joke as it is written works.
Marc:Yes, it's like, I want to believe that the joke... Without you juicing it.
Guest:...will kill no matter what.
Guest:That this act could be done behind a curtain.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you know that.
Marc:You're doing that on purpose.
Guest:Yeah, so there's a part of me like... So you'll go up there and risk tanking.
Guest:It's like, come on.
Guest:There's no tanking.
Guest:It's just... I mean, if I go to...
Guest:so weird i mean you've been doing it long enough yeah you you've been doing it so long you can just will yourself to have a decent set right just especially at the cellar yeah kind of you know that room sometimes i i walk upstairs here going i know how to do this correct but um yeah i guess at the risk of tanking but
Guest:I mean, I have a bigger goal.
Guest:I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking.
Marc:So the fact that maybe 200 people walk out going, what the fuck was wrong with Chris?
Marc:Who cares?
Guest:And that's, you know, the legend of Pryor.
Guest:You know who I really learned that from, though?
Guest:Damon Wayans.
Guest:Watching him work out material.
Marc:Oh, he used to say that before he went on at the comedy store.
Marc:I go, you're going to do your shit.
Marc:He goes, no, I think it's going to be a jazz set.
Guest:He's the best at that shit.
Guest:Has an act.
Guest:It works.
Guest:Fuck you.
Marc:yeah you don't know what he's gonna do i'm already famous this is the gym yeah i saw him go uh he did his like you know the the cerebral palsy guy for like 25 minutes once where he's just like okay he's acting like a and he's looking he's looking yeah yeah he's trying he's mining for fucking like okay it's gonna come eventually
Marc:And how long do you, like, do you keep going back to jokes?
Marc:Because I just recently started, like, if you've got a long joke, when you do it like that with no inflection and no juice behind it, you know, what do you learn from that?
Marc:You know, what do you take out and what do you not?
Guest:I mean, I watch the tape.
Guest:I got the DVD or whatever, and I watch it.
Guest:And I see where they laughed, and I see...
Guest:You know, you see where you fucked up.
Guest:Oh, if I put that word here.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:I stepped on it earlier without knowing.
Guest:You know, you just need jokes.
Guest:I mean, it sounds like fucking Henny Youngman.
Guest:It sounds like you need jokes.
Marc:So there's right.
Marc:But there's nothing you don't ever go up there with, you know, how much extemporaneous stuff?
Marc:Because the one thing I realized about your last special was interesting the way you decided to edit it.
Marc:was that, was that, you know, there's one thing that's like, this is wild.
Marc:He's doing this all over the world.
Marc:But part of me as a comic, I had this moment where I'm like, well, now they're going to know we're, it's just the same jokes everywhere you go.
Guest:Well, I mean,
Guest:do you know what I'm saying I play all these countries now you do have to tweak it you do have to tweak the show but it's no different than fucking rock band no no of course not hey New York how's it going they fucking slip the words New York into the song and then they slip Boston in tomorrow night but there's a point where that's part of the work is making those fucking jokes work and making them work over and over again and that's it
Guest:It's weird, I don't like that special that much anymore.
Marc:Because of what I just said?
Marc:No, no, it's weird.
Guest:I've been writing, looking at shit, and I'm like, I think I was too, I think I did too many shows.
Guest:Like, I was just, I was like, kind of screaming the whole thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was playing, the places I was playing was so big, and it was just...
Guest:I want to bring it down.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like a notch.
Marc:Well, let's talk about that real quick.
Marc:Because I've always, like, when I've talked to you as a person and as a comic offstage, you know, you're thoughtfully soft-spoken.
Marc:Now, how much, like, where... Because you definitely all of a sudden, like, probably would bring the pain maybe a little before that, decided, like, this is the Chris Rock on stage.
Marc:And you were stalking, you were pacing, and it was an amplification.
Marc:I'm not saying it's not you, but there is a definite difference.
Guest:There's a performance element to it.
Guest:And I think that's what I was missing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I think everybody needs some level of performance element.
Guest:And it can be low-key, too.
Marc:No, obviously, yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Shit, Mitch Hedberg wasn't that spaced out on stage.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, he's pretty spaced out off and on stage.
Marc:No, I know what you mean.
Guest:He turned it on a little bit.
Marc:Right, you find that part of yourself that lives up there.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But how much of that, do you remember the first time you did it?
Marc:Or did it just sort of happen?
Right.
Guest:I mean, I was getting better, playing the clubs, getting more confident, but you know, I have other black comics.
Guest:It was weird, when I started working here, it was just, so you work, catch in the strip, and there's not any black guys.
Guest:And here's the bad thing about that.
Guest:You only get compared to people that look like you, ultimately.
Guest:So in a weird way, it's like having no competition.
Guest:Even though you're trying to have it.
Marc:But again, there was that there was a there was a black comedy world that was very over the top in a lot of ways.
Marc:And it really had a fight to hold their audience.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But style.
Guest:I want deaf comedy jam came out watching Martin, watching guys in this like because the best the worst deaf comedy jam is better than the best evening at the improv.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Because everybody performs.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Even if the jokes are horrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In spite of that.
Guest:I'm talking at the last season of Def Jam where Martin's not even a host anymore.
Guest:Those shows are better than any evening at the improv.
Guest:Because the guys are really performing.
Guest:I just realized I had to perform Somewhat, you know, yeah, I'm from a family of preachers man like my dad my granddad you grew up with it Yeah, but I mean like you saw your grandfather preach.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, like like a lot so I was around that shit and I watched my grandfather take notes and work on his sermons and Like and you knew it was an act.
Guest:Yeah, no, it was that and
Guest:So I kind of... I don't know.
Guest:I just, like, you gotta work this shit.
Guest:You can't take it for granted.
Marc:And that made the difference, huh?
Guest:It made a lot of difference.
Guest:And, you know, I like to tell guys, you know, great show in a club could be a horrible show in a theater.
Guest:Like, you start playing these theaters, man.
Guest:They saw Elvis Costello in the same theater the night before you.
Guest:Or they saw Prince in the same fucking arena the night before.
Guest:And you're held to that standard.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You can't pull out your notebook and...
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:We see fucking... We're at Radio City Music Hall.
Guest:We see great entertainers here.
Marc:Are you going to do that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:This is where I'm sitting in the same spot I saw a fucking Michael Jackson or whatever the fuck.
Guest:What do you got?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want you to do that without a band.
Guest:Without a fucking light show.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You got to fucking bring it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, some of us, you know, watching Eddie and watch, you know, you got to give him something.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can lean on your stool in the club.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You better get off it when you're in the big room.
Guest:You better fucking get up.
Marc:Unless you're Bill Cosby.
Guest:Unless you're Bill Cosby.
Marc:Unless you're that fucking genius.
Marc:That's the amazing thing about watching Bill Cosby himself.
Marc:It's not even a stool.
Marc:It's like a kitchen chair.
Marc:He's just leaning back, holding the mic at a weird angle.
Guest:Well, now he's like a bluesman.
Guest:To see him and to see B.B.
Guest:King, it's not that different.
Guest:They sit in a spot and they play their acts, man.
Marc:I talk about this a lot now because I came so late to really getting it.
Marc:You realize as a comic watching Bill Cosby himself is that he's deciding what's funny, and he's making it funny.
Marc:You look at that stuff on paper, there's no saying that that's going to be funny.
Guest:I mean, that's how I'd like it, too.
Guest:I don't...
Guest:I don't think in five specials I've had three funny topics.
Guest:I like to dig myself out of a hole.
Guest:I like to pick the worst shit.
Guest:I was on stage the other night talking about the sex drive and how strong it is.
Guest:Japan has this...
Guest:this amazing this insane um earthquake and all these people die and this nuclear reactor is going off and i guarantee you nine months from that earthquake children are fucking born oh yeah yeah because people gotta get some rubble pussy yeah oh yeah yeah yeah i'm getting me so yeah if it's the last thing i do yeah so
Marc:Oh, I think definitely people are like, it's like when, when shit is going down, you better find someone to fuck or jerk off or something.
Marc:Get me out of this terror.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did that work out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've got a big laugh.
Marc:Big laughs.
Marc:Do you get afraid of, uh, you know, tapping yourself out experientially, you know, in material?
Marc:I mean, how's everything going at home?
Marc:Good.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Am I worried about tapping myself?
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:Shit happens.
Guest:I mean, I've been lucky.
Guest:I mean, people are like, why do you do so many movies?
Guest:And why are you doing this stuff?
Guest:I got to give myself a break.
Guest:So I haven't been on a road in three years.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So now I'm working out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'll probably have a set or whatever by January, February.
Guest:No.
Guest:Sometime in February, March, I'll be at Benny Brands every night.
Guest:Doing the hour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'll take it out.
Guest:That's where you go.
Guest:I like it there.
Marc:Do they show the reel of car wrecks and stuff before you go on?
Guest:Yeah, they do all that show.
Marc:Is the payphone still on stage?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I fucking love it.
Guest:It's just far enough away from my house.
Guest:I get a nice drive.
Guest:How have you been feeling about your acting?
Guest:Good?
Guest:Good.
Guest:Lately, I mean, the play went well.
Marc:Yeah, that was the first time you ever did that?
Guest:First time I ever did it.
Marc:You got good press on that.
Marc:And the movies have been... I didn't see the funeral movie.
Guest:The funeral movie did fine.
Marc:And I saw the other one, the relationship movie.
Guest:That one did okay.
Guest:Yeah, that was good.
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:I'm having fun.
Marc:What was the stage experience like?
Guest:The stage experience was the greatest experience ever.
Guest:It's like, okay, it's the hardest thing you ever do, but it's also very easy.
Guest:It's called The Motherfucker with the Hat.
Guest:It's great just being out of your comfort zone.
Marc:And to be on stage and not be expected to get laughs necessarily and live in that moment.
Guest:I'm bragging right now.
Guest:Name drop coming.
Guest:Had dinner with Woody Allen.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did he see the show?
Guest:He hadn't seen the show.
Marc:What brought on the dinner?
Guest:I was in Rome with my family on vacation and I bumped into Sun Yi.
Guest:I said, what's up?
Guest:And I didn't make, you know, I didn't even pressure her because I don't father her.
Guest:And next thing I get a call, hey, Woody wants to have dinner.
Guest:So, and I assume since he's filming a movie in Rome, it'd be us and 10 people, me and my wife.
Guest:It's like me, my wife, Woody, Sun Yi.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:We talked, we talked, we talked.
Guest:But he knew about the play, and the first thing he says to me is like, didn't you find it easy?
Guest:No, I didn't find it easy.
Guest:But parts of doing a play are not, are easier than stand-up.
Guest:A, you're doing stand-up, you got to do a fucking hour and a half by yourself.
Marc:And it's yours.
Guest:It's yours.
Guest:There's other people on stage.
Guest:There's all these crutches that you don't have in stand-up.
Marc:It's not all on you.
Guest:I found it funny that Woody would say, you know.
Marc:Yeah, it's easy, right?
Guest:It was easy, right?
Guest:I was like, damn.
Marc:Were you able to, like, do you work well with other people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What else did you fucking talk to Woody Allen about?
Marc:Dude, I was so nervous.
Marc:I mean, where does he figure into your... He's my favorite.
Guest:You see that big poster in there?
Guest:He's your favorite?
Guest:He's my favorite.
Guest:He's the best.
Guest:Woody Allen's the best.
Guest:Woody Allen's not the best stand-up.
Guest:He's a great stand-up, by the way.
Marc:He is a great stand-up.
Marc:But there's just that two-record set.
Marc:That's all you get.
Marc:Two-record set.
Marc:That's all you get.
Guest:That's all you get.
Guest:Isn't it amazing that you think you've made more stand-up than Woody Allen?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't that some shit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, he does make a movie every 10 minutes.
Guest:But he's the best, the greatest comic mind in the last 100 years since Chaplin.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you love him.
Guest:Who the fuck's been that funny that long?
Guest:I know.
Guest:Who?
Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:You know.
Marc:And what else did you talk about?
Marc:Comedy?
Guest:Comedy a little bit.
Guest:Politics.
Guest:He's, you know, he likes Obama more than me.
Marc:He's like old school Jewish lefty?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:My man is, yo, don't talk about his president, motherfucker.
Marc:Yeah, I find that.
Marc:What's your take on him?
Guest:Obama, I'm happy.
Guest:I mean, a first term, there's a fucking art to a first term, man.
Marc:He got handed a pretty fucking stinky bag of shit.
Guest:Because you're always running for the second term the whole time.
Guest:So you just... You can't... That's like Clinton's first term.
Guest:It's like you can't really do your gangster shit until your second term.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You just got to make that cut.
Marc:You got to make it.
Guest:You just got to make it.
Guest:You can't really... Even Bush!
Guest:Couldn't really fuck up the world until his second term.
Guest:That's when he put the hammer down on.
Guest:I'm fine with the president, man.
Guest:I mean, you know, I'm like everybody.
Guest:I want more action.
Guest:But I understand that he's, you know, trying not to piss off a lot of people.
Guest:But I believe wholeheartedly if he's back in, he's going to do some gangster shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I haven't even been waiting for that.
Marc:Don't you have those moments where you see him talk in a certain situation where you're like, how come not more of that?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And what do you think the answer to that is as a performer?
Marc:Why can't you just do your show?
Guest:Well, you know what it is?
Guest:I think...
Guest:George Bush, the last George Bush we had, was the first cable TV president we had.
Guest:And what I mean by that, and a call back to earlier, he was the first president that was only president to the people that voted for him.
Guest:He did not give a fuck about the people that didn't vote for him.
Marc:Which is not what a president should do.
Guest:You know, Obama is actually trying to be president to the whole country.
Guest:And, you know, there's a lot of compromise being president to the whole country.
Marc:Yeah, and there's also a lot of hits you got to take from people who will see that as a vulnerability.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To get the next guy that will only play the them in.
Marc:He's trying to do it old school.
Guest:Hopefully by now he's learned his lesson.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Bush, in a weird way, our complaints about Obama is because we miss Bush.
Marc:We miss hating somebody.
Guest:We miss hating somebody, but we miss the guy that didn't give a fuck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:About these other... You kind of want that.
Guest:Bush didn't give a fuck about us.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He just really, really didn't.
Guest:And we kind of want our own... We want revenge.
Guest:We don't want justice.
Guest:That's the problem with the Democrats.
Guest:We want revenge.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, look, are you going on tonight?
Guest:uh not tonight i just got home but i'll probably go on like sunday oh that's good maybe i'll get on then it's all me come on i'm kidding man come on no no at least i'm working on something i know i don't come in there just jerk it off no no you never do and sometimes you actually just do what you're gonna do i wonder if dave's gonna go down there has he been going out
Guest:He's been going up.
Guest:Now, if he goes up, you're not going to get up.
Guest:He's doing like three hours.
Marc:I leave, yeah.
Marc:But I'd like to see him.
Marc:Is he all right?
Guest:He was funny as fuck last time I saw him.
Marc:Last week?
Guest:Last week.
Guest:Oh, God, he was funny.
Marc:And he's still in town.
Guest:I think he's still in town.
Guest:I mean, we went up back to back.
Guest:He was clearly funnier.
Guest:He was clearly the superior comedian of the night.
Guest:How'd that make you feel?
Guest:Hey, man, I'm fine.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I'll have my day.
Guest:You had a couple.
Guest:I'll have my day.
Marc:You'll have another day, you mean?
Guest:There'll be another day.
Guest:There'll be another day.
Guest:There'll be a day.
Guest:Hey, he's come to my show and been like, oh, shit.
Marc:You guys get along all right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, man, Chappelle's the only man that puts fear in my heart.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I'm like, goddamn, I don't want to go on.
Guest:He's fucking funny, man.
Guest:This shit is ridiculous.
Marc:All right, thanks, Chris.
Marc:Thanks for talking.
Guest:No problem, man.
Guest:Okay, that's it.
Guest:That's our show, folks.
Guest:I hope you enjoyed that.
Guest:I had a lovely chat.
Marc:It was an honor to speak to Chris Rock, in all honesty.
Marc:Very smart, very accessible, very funny.
Guest:Enjoyed it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Is that all right?
Guest:If I enjoy something, thank you.
Guest:What are you going to do now?
Guest:Go to WTF pod.com.
Guest:Get on that mailing list.
Guest:Check out the episodes.
Guest:Kick a few shekels into the pot.
Marc:Get an app for iPod, iPad, iPod touch droid.
Marc:Get those back episodes.
Marc:Here's a couple of things I want to tell you though.
Marc:The Christmas holidays are coming up and under the merch section, we're going to be putting some new stuff up there.
Guest:We're going to refill the posters.
Guest:We got the mugs.
Guest:We got the shirts.
Guest:Now we're going to have buttons and
Guest:We can have tote bags.
Marc:We're going to put a little package together for the WTF fan in your life.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:Am I selling a Christmas present?
Marc:Am I selling a Christmas present?
Marc:I am.
Marc:We're also working on, now don't push me on this, but it should be done soon, within a month or so.
Marc:We're going to put all the first 100 episodes on MP3 and make those available in a two-CD set.
Guest:with some exclusive video footage.
Guest:Look forward to that if you look forward to things like that.
Guest:What else?
Guest:I think that's about it.
Guest:Punchline tonight through Saturday.
Guest:That would be at this listening, November 3rd through 5th.
Guest:Come down if you can.
Guest:Thank you, Chris Rock, for talking.
Guest:We will talk.
Guest:Well, I will talk to you guys next week.
Marc:A lot of great shows coming up.
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:We good?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Boomer in?
Marc:Boomer?
Marc:Buddy?
Marc:Boomy?
Marc:Nope.