Episode 200 - Marc Maron (as told to Mike Birbiglia)
Marc:Hey folks, it's Mark Maron, and this is a very special episode of WTF.
Marc:This is our 200th episode.
Marc:I'm amazed that we made it this far.
Marc:I'm so thrilled that everybody enjoys the show, and I couldn't be more excited that there's plenty more to do.
Marc:I really love doing this thing.
Marc:And as you know, I have these fits of gratitude occasionally.
Marc:Well, I just want to say thank you to all of you that enjoy the show, that support the show, that come out to the live shows, that come out to the shows of the comics I interview.
Marc:It's just been an amazing couple of years.
Marc:So I wanted to do something interesting.
Marc:I know a lot of you have requested that I interview myself.
Marc:Well...
Marc:And I said,
Marc:And he did his homework.
Marc:And it was very interesting.
Marc:And I'm excited to listen to this interview because I don't know what I said.
Marc:This is Mike Birbiglia, guest hosting WTF, interviewing Marc Maron.
Marc:That's me.
Marc:He's interviewing me.
Guest:Lock the gate!
Lock the gate!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:WTF.
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Guest:All right, let's do this.
Guest:What the fuckers?
Guest:All right.
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the fuck nuts?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What the fuck are nuts?
Guest:Yeah, all right.
Guest:I'm Mike Birbiglia, and I'm filling in this week for Marc Maron, who is not available to host, but he is available for an exclusive interview.
Guest:I'm going to interview him this week.
Marc:I think that went pretty well.
Marc:I'm not going to chime in like that.
Marc:It's your show from here on out.
Marc:I'm not going to sabotage it.
Marc:I'm sitting on the other side.
Marc:I just want people to know that.
Marc:The only thing I'm doing that I usually do is just watching the levels.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I am, let's see, I just picked up your CD, Tickets Still Available, which is not your recent one.
Guest:No, that's the second one.
Guest:The recent one is called Final Engagement.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was actually curious, doesn't that have a sense of finality to it, Final Engagement?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:That it's your last album, like you're retiring, like Jay-Z or something?
Marc:I didn't know, I genuinely didn't know whether or not I was going to retire.
Marc:Really?
Marc:On some level.
Huh.
Guest:So it was intentional.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, there's a trilogy feeling to it.
Marc:There's Not Sold Out, which is the first one.
Guest:I love the titles of your albums.
Guest:Not Sold Out, and then Tickets Still Available, and then Final Engagement.
Marc:Right.
Marc:When I did Final Engagement, I...
Marc:I had just been left by my wife probably a few months before.
Marc:It was inconclusive what was going to happen.
Marc:I was miserable.
Marc:I was suicidal.
Guest:When you say suicidal, you mean literally... I thought about it.
Marc:Did you have plans?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I didn't have plans.
Marc:I thought about it because I didn't know what to do with myself.
Marc:I was trying to figure out if I needed to stop doing comedy, what would I do?
Marc:Because...
Marc:I just was at the end of my rope.
Marc:So Final Engagement not only worked for the end of the trilogy, but I honestly didn't, you know, I felt like somehow or another this was it.
Marc:And the tone of that record, I literally called Dan Schlissel from Stand Up Records and I said...
Marc:I got to do something.
Marc:I'm in the middle of this thing.
Marc:I talk about my life on stage, and I've been talking about it, so let's just fucking do it.
Marc:Can you meet me in Seattle?
Marc:It was like three weeks or six weeks.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:I booked a weekend, and let's just turn the thing on and see what happens.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So on some level, it was definitely the end of something.
Marc:I'm glad it didn't turn out to be the end of my comedy career, but I don't think you're going to hear me with that tenor of anger.
Marc:I don't think that my tone, that, like, I listen to that thing, and...
Marc:My anger was so grounded and so genuine.
Marc:I could just I could feel it.
Marc:It may not have been about exactly what I was talking about, but my tone was had a clarity that I was literally trying to not fall apart.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I I like it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:You know, but I think it was the end of that that era of Marc Maron.
Guest:Yeah, I think it's a great album.
Guest:I mean, one of the things about your comedy that I'm going to get to people listening on their computers or iPods right now, I have collected questions from a lot of your past guests.
Guest:No, you have not.
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:And the reason I did that was that I felt inadequate to be the person interviewing you for your 200th episode, which is what you're listening to right now.
Guest:Like who?
Guest:Like who did you like who?
Marc:Are you going to tell me?
Marc:A lot of people, yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:As we go, yeah.
Marc:That's insane.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Well, because I was like, you know, because the way that this episode came about is I emailed you and I said, why don't we do one again?
Guest:Because last one was all about how we hate each other.
Guest:Not hate each other, but you hated me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and then i just kind of took it and then and then you apologize you know we talked it through in the episode yeah you can dig that up if they want right and then i was like well we should have an episode where we actually talk about what we do okay you know i was like i should listen to your albums you should listen to my albums that's what i emailed that was that was the concept and then you wrote back yeah i don't like that concept
Guest:You wrote back, I like, you're like, I want to do another episode.
Guest:I just don't like that concept.
Guest:So let's think of another concept.
Guest:I've listened to most of the episodes of this podcast.
Guest:There's 198 episodes or 199.
Guest:This is the 200th.
Guest:So why don't we just talk about that?
Guest:And you wrote back, I've got a great idea.
Yeah.
Guest:This is where you did the network executive thing where you take the idea that you've just been given by the artist and then you rename it yours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You go, I've got a great idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Marc Maron as told by Mike Birbiglia for the 200th episode.
Guest:I said, sure.
Guest:I said the thing that you say to network executives when they take your ideas and they reform them as their own.
Guest:You go, that's a great idea.
Guest:And that's what I said.
Guest:And that's why we're here.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So I felt inadequate to be the only person asking questions.
Guest:And so I just emailed people.
Guest:And some people didn't respond.
Guest:But a lot of people did.
Marc:I'd like the names of the people that didn't respond.
Marc:I mean, you're a big comic.
Marc:Who doesn't respond to Mike Birbiglia's email?
Guest:Well, we can get into it in a second.
Guest:But, you know, we'll start.
Guest:Judd Apatow had a question.
Guest:He's an avid listener of the podcast.
Guest:And he said, ask Mark what his dad thinks about it when he speaks so brutally honestly about him on the podcast.
Marc:Well, my dad, honestly, I don't think has figured out how to listen to this, but I can speak to that in terms of my comedy.
Marc:For some reason, my father being the type of person he is, when I was growing up, I was really the only guy who could make him laugh.
Marc:So even when I was insulting him, and I've done this to people in my life, like I could shit on my dad to his face with a precision that would really upset people.
Marc:But because it cut so close to him and it sort of forced him to engage with it, he would laugh hysterically.
Marc:Like I can make my father laugh hysterically when I'm telling him exactly who he is and it's not pretty.
Marc:Like I can cut right to the bone with that guy and he just fucking loves it.
Marc:Um, and I think it's how I connect with him on some level.
Marc:I, I find relief when I can make him laugh and it makes me feel good to make him laugh.
Marc:But generally if he's laughing at me, I'm insulting him deeply, uh, you know, character things, you know, like sure.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Why don't you just waste all the family's money?
Marc:Like you did that last time.
Marc:Why don't you get into a business where you'll bankrupt?
Marc:That's not,
Marc:That kind of stuff.
Marc:And he just laughs his ass off because it's true.
Marc:And I don't think sometimes when he's getting himself into trouble or hurting me or my brother or anybody else emotionally that he really acknowledges it.
Marc:So I think that by me putting it in his face,
Marc:it's some sort of validation or it's bizarre.
Marc:But I mean, I say some pretty cruel things to him.
Guest:But that's interesting because you, when you and I have gotten in disagreements over the years, when I call you on your shit, it's when you respond best to that.
Marc:Right, and I think I have that same feeling.
Marc:I get that weird kind of feeling of like, I got you.
Marc:Like when I'm called out, it's almost like somebody has pulled away the Mark, the angry Mark curtain, and there's this giggling child in there.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, you're right.
Marc:So what happens now?
Marc:Do you like me still?
Guest:But you know what's sad about that is like, because I've talked to a million people about you in the last week, and one guy...
Guest:who used to work at um short attention span theater was that the show you hosted on comedy central in the 90s yeah and he said you were such an asshole to to people who were low low in lower status is that true that's what he said and i asked him for specifics
Guest:I said, people say that.
Guest:Mark Maron's famous for being an asshole or his persona on stage is tougher.
Guest:But do you have real specifics?
Guest:And he goes, well, he was just, he goes, he's the guy who didn't say hi to the interns in the hallway when they were the only people there.
Guest:And I thought that was interesting.
Guest:I mean, it seems like you are tougher on people who are in lower status or who are nicer.
Guest:And that you you actually respond well to people, you know, like Patrice or a tell who are who are tougher.
Guest:Right.
Marc:My recollection of that.
Marc:And I think that I'm certainly much different now.
Marc:And usually and this may be a cop out.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But my recollection of my experience, particularly with that show, was that I was in this position where I was doing this angry comedy and I thought I was a voice of rebellious truth.
Marc:And then I get this opportunity to host this show, which is essentially a clip show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I was in one of those weird positions that we get in sometimes, which is that this is an opportunity to earn money in show business.
Marc:It's completely contrary to who you are and what you're doing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And when I first got there, it was like they didn't even have a writer to do bits and stuff.
Marc:You came in for Stuart, right?
Marc:Well, no, it was a different show.
Marc:They kind of resurrected it.
Marc:It was no longer a panel show, an interview show.
Marc:When Patty and John did it, it was sort of a news show.
Marc:Patty who?
Marc:Ross Burrow.
Guest:Oh, she hosted it.
Marc:Yeah, and it had gone through several manifestations.
Marc:Joe Bolster, Marcus Allen.
Marc:It had sort of been this weird daily...
Marc:thing that they'd done in one form or another for years and by the time i got there robert small was uh directing it and kiki steel was producing it with robert and it was at hbo downtown and they reshaped the whole thing and it was this fake it was this vault the idea was you're down in the basement at comedy central so it was set up like there was an elevator there a fake elevator there were these film reels around and
Marc:Like a dusty basement.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I kind of remember this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it was me in the vault coming out there going like, you know, I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:I'm down the vault.
Marc:I would ride down the elevator.
Marc:I'd do a shtick with the elevator operator.
Marc:The first one was Frank Santorelli and then Eric Palladino.
Marc:And for the first few months, I have to imagine I was like, this is fucking ridiculous.
Marc:I mean, if somebody doesn't get, you know, we got to write some original comedy here.
Marc:You got to let me breathe a little bit.
Marc:We've got to do something other than like, I still remember.
Marc:I have the first four episodes of that thing when we had this one writer and all he was doing was cut twos.
Marc:so i literally remember you know setting up and all the all the material was promotional material recut into a show it was shit that was uh you know whatever movies or specials or whatever was coming in we'd get a reel and they'd clip it into the show as if i was choosing these things right right right like a trl for comedy kind of thing what's that total request live which is the mtv show yeah person daily hosted
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was a Carson Daly job in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he has me saying things like, all right, coming up next, a pithy python pair.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So you had to read kind of like, you know, quote unquote, witty copy.
Marc:Witty copy, alliterative copy.
Marc:And that lasted about four episodes.
Marc:And I got that guy fired and I was fuming.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I said, you can't do this to me because even though no one knows me, I'm doing- I have integrity about what I am.
Marc:Well, I don't want to be, yeah, right.
Marc:And I don't want to be this.
Marc:I don't want to be a puppet.
Marc:Oh, that's hard.
Marc:It was horrendous.
Marc:That's awful.
Marc:But I threw such a shit fit that they brought in John Groff, who went on to be the head writer at Conan.
Marc:And and this was his first real writing job.
Marc:And I finally felt comfortable.
Marc:We were writing short sketches and we did bits.
Marc:And, you know, I you know, and there were jokes that were being written that I could, you know, around the clips that, you know, I could get behind.
Marc:But I have to assume that what was going on there was I was so fucking miserable.
Marc:And so panicky constantly about how I was being seen that I, I don't know how I could ever really be happy.
Marc:So that doesn't mean that I should forego politeness.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I think I was in a pretty fucking miserable place and I should have been happy.
Marc:I was making money and I was learning how to be on television.
Marc:I learned how to read prompter there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, some people can do that.
Marc:Some people can't.
Marc:I got a lot of things that I'm grateful for, but I was pretty fucking miserable.
Marc:Did you get fired ultimately?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, the show went under.
Marc:You know, they stopped doing the show.
Marc:And then, you know, I got a deal to do a pilot, which this is sort of at the core of my resentment of Jon Stewart, I think, as well.
Marc:You know, I got a deal after that.
Marc:You know, I was on there for a year.
Marc:I believe I got, you know, because of my affiliation with Nancy Geller and Nina.
Guest:Rosenstein.
Marc:Yeah, at HBO Downtown.
Marc:You know, I got the first half hour in 95.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And then that same run that had Jeanine Garofalo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Carlos.
Marc:Oh, there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I remember that series.
Marc:And I got in that.
Marc:And then, you know, we got this pilot deal because, you know, Comedy Central at that time was moving towards more towards like at that time.
Marc:There's this weird partnership between HBO and Viacom.
Marc:HBO was part of it through HBO Downtown.
Marc:And then after that, Viacom sort of started to push HBO Downtown out a little bit.
Marc:So we had done this pilot for a new daily show.
Marc:It was the Marc Maron Project.
Marc:It was a talk show.
Marc:And they went with their produced daily show.
Marc:They went with the daily show with Killborn.
Marc:Killborn, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And I just remember, you know, Madeline Smithberg came up to me and goes, we want you to be part of it.
Marc:We want you to be like the angry, crazy guy, you know, maybe in a bathroom stall, you know, with doing a bit.
Marc:I was like, I was too proud.
Marc:I was like, there's no fucking way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing that I ask a lot of people.
Marc:It's not an apology and I'm not taking responsibility, but most of the time I was just rude because I was- You're in a bad headspace.
Guest:You felt like you were being cornered.
Marc:Yeah, and I was just rude.
Marc:You know, I have to force myself a lot of times to say thank you.
Marc:Like, sometimes I'll send two emails.
Marc:Like, it's not in my habit to be, you know, that polite.
Marc:And I take people for granted, and I will cop to that.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, but to get back to the comedy stuff, Eddie Brill asked something that I've always was curious about with you two.
Guest:Eddie Brill was a comedian, was a guest on the show as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said, you know, we all reinvent ourselves as comics over and over again, and as we get more experience, we become more of ourselves and less acting like a comedian on stage.
Guest:And he was wondering, how do you feel differently now from a year ago, five years ago, 20 years ago?
Guest:I mean, and I'm going to add an addendum to that, which is when I first saw you –
Guest:It was at Luna Lounge because my sister Gina was a big fan of the Luna Lounge culture.
Marc:Yeah, she worked for Nina.
Guest:I remember your sister from HBO Downtown.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah, I remember her.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:So, my sister introduced me to that scene that you started with Jeanine Garofalo and Todd Berry.
Guest:You know, at the time, UCB was doing stuff on that show.
Guest:It was called Eating It at Luna Lounge.
Guest:And I remember seeing you and...
Guest:I have to say, no one, I don't know, you know, your young experiences, it's hard to quantify things because you lose perspective.
Guest:But for my money, seeing you kill in the Luna Lounge is the hardest I've ever seen anyone kill.
Guest:I mean, it was untethered.
Guest:It was raw.
Guest:It was simultaneously political and personal and observational, sometimes silly.
Guest:It was very loose.
Guest:I would describe it as, you know, sometimes you'd shout and sometimes you'd be soft.
Guest:And it was really kind of ran the gamut of what you are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I remember, you know, cut to like five or six years later, I moved to New York.
Guest:and it was probably around 2001, and I would run into you sometimes at the Comedy Cellar, and I would see you in that setting, and it was like a different stage persona.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, it was jerk-off jokes, not exclusively, but it was kind of your more typical comedian, road comedian kind of stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I found it really disappointing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I was like, where's that other guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I feel like in some ways, the podcast has resurrected kind of what you were, what your true voice was.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think that if you listen to the records, most of those are pretty true to that.
Marc:I think so, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:So, I mean, really, to take that example specifically, you know, what happened at Luna Lounge was that I was, you know,
Marc:I'd already been doing comedy six years.
Marc:So, and I've always been one of those guys that, you know, people see me on television, they're like, that's, you're not getting the full thing.
Guest:I remember seeing you on Conan in that period because you paneled a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what were you on, 40 times?
Marc:Yeah, I was on a few times a year, three or four times a year.
Guest:And yeah, no, it didn't, it didn't have that thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I don't like, there was nothing I could do about that, man.
Marc:I mean, I think that the HBO special in 95 is as close to it.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:Well, that was because, you know, I was in Luna mind and I said, look, man, you know, I didn't even prepare a set.
Marc:Yeah, this is who I am.
Marc:But that's fucking crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who the fuck would do that?
Marc:I mean, like I was like, I'm like, well, I've been riffing a lot and I got a few ideas.
Marc:You know, I'm just going to, you know, I'm kind of going to lay back and, you know, I've got a couple of things I know I want to do.
Marc:And then the centerpiece of that thing.
Marc:the Jerry Garcia story, which is, I had no idea I was going to do it.
Marc:And I may have told it once before.
Marc:So I'm doing a Luna set at the Fillmore for my HBO special.
Marc:Anybody who was a comedian with foresight or discipline, or even a guy that thought ahead about who was going to be watching that, what it meant to have an HBO half hour, would have been making himself crazy.
Marc:But I was sort of stoned the day before.
Marc:And I'm like, look, just stay in this zone, man.
Marc:Keep it, you want to get real up there.
Marc:So all that time at Luna, I was going up there unprepared.
Marc:And that's really a lot of how I work, but it's also how I write material.
Marc:I don't know how you do it, but I imagine you do some version of that.
Marc:A lot of typing.
Marc:But you're an organizer, and I envy that.
Marc:I listen to your stuff now, and you sort of, you kind of, it's like an old style of long-form comedy.
Marc:that you don't hear anymore because you assume that people can't pay attention that long.
Marc:You have a complex story with a lot of different punchlines and the tag is not like some turn of phrase on a joke.
Marc:It's literally a surprise ending and everything has a narrative.
Marc:It takes a lot of balls to do that.
Marc:And yeah, and your skill set is great.
Marc:And it's like, I don't want to like you, but I mean, but I do.
Marc:But in like, you know, the last, I think it was Letterman.
Marc:I was like, holy fuck, who does that?
Marc:There's only a few people that do what you do, really, because it takes a sort of, you know, groundedness in your voice and a certain amount of balls to get involved with a five minute bit that if it falls in the middle, that you're in the middle of a bit.
Marc:I mean, that's hard to do.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:You know, I think Jake Johansson does it a bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Jake's brilliant.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's a style of comedy you don't see very often because it takes a lot of balls to do it and to pull it off.
Marc:But, like, I've never been that guy.
Marc:I'm the guy that I'm going to fucking go full in and I'm going to get into something.
Marc:I don't know where it's going.
Marc:And it's all based on my feelings.
Marc:And it's all based on the fucking moment of what's going to happen in this moment.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Guest:And also, you're following everyone's best 10 minutes.
Guest:You're following the 10 best comedians doing their 10 best minutes.
Guest:Nobody works out in that room.
Guest:Other than Attell and maybe a few other guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I never got to that level of comfort in that room, and I'm still not there.
Marc:That room still scares me.
Marc:This still scares me, too.
Marc:So, I mean, what you were seeing in that example is like, I was a guy that there was really no way for me to sell what I was doing at Luna.
Marc:I knew it was what I was good at.
Marc:And even when I did it, I always felt like I had raped myself when I performed at Luna.
Marc:And it was just because I was surrounded by like-minded people to a degree.
Marc:That they were kindred spirits.
Marc:Most of them were creative people.
Marc:They were Lower East Side people.
Marc:They were people that were kind of fascinated by this new thing.
Marc:And I was going up there, on my way there, not unlike I do when I approach the mic that you're at.
Marc:And I'm saying, what the fuck have I got?
Marc:What have I got?
Marc:What have I got?
Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, I went to the store and that fucking happened.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen here.
Marc:And that's how I generate jokes.
Marc:It's always been that way.
Marc:And now I can do it when I go out on the road.
Marc:I do that.
Marc:And I've always done that.
Marc:But again, it's not consistent.
Marc:And it is my process.
Marc:So maybe what you saw at the cellar, not unlike Conan or anything else, is me trying to take what I do and find where the joke is.
Marc:I've got to sort of sort it out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And and and so I don't know that I was ever different because it seems that I show up when I do shows on the road.
Marc:I usually show up for myself on my CDs.
Marc:I show up for myself.
Marc:But there are certain contexts, you know, five minute spot on TV.
Marc:But recently I've been better at it in terms of like because, you know, I think to address Eddie's question.
Marc:I was very defensive.
Marc:It was not a creative choice.
Marc:My disposition early on when I was very young, I was like, you know, I want to be like Woody Allen.
Marc:You know, I'm neurotic.
Marc:I'm a Jew, you know, that.
Marc:And then at some point in college, before I really started doing comedy, I got brokenhearted.
Marc:I got angry and I committed to this sort of like, I'm going to be a drunk and I'm going to be an ass and I'm going to fucking, you know, and my guys are the angry guys.
Marc:So that was my disposition.
Marc:But inside of it was always a very sort of panicky, hypersensitive, neurotic, poetic, pretty soft dude.
Marc:So those weren't really choices about creativity.
Marc:I think I'm closer to myself now than I've ever been.
Marc:And I think that final engagement really is the end, if anything, the death of that anger that was just really untethered anger for no real reason.
Marc:I don't have that anymore.
Guest:I think one of the problems in terms of your commercial career is that, and you're very successful now, you know, now that you're, I don't know how this has occurred.
Guest:I mean, I guess it's just the democratization of audio on the internet has made you be able to be yourself for 200 hours and people have come to it, which is amazing.
Guest:But I think one of the problems... With the help of my friends.
Guest:One of the problems along the way was probably that people wanted to go, oh, it's Marc Maron, the angry comedian.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Or Marc Maron, the political comedian.
Guest:But actually, you're not either of those.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And I think that seems like that's the problem.
Guest:I think that's true.
Guest:Is that...
Guest:You're not Louis Black.
Guest:No.
Guest:And, you know, I don't know what you... You don't know... There's no way to describe you other than you're Marc Maron.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's a hard thing to sell if you don't know who Marc Maron is.
Guest:Tell me about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I...
Marc:I always like, it always drove me nuts that, you know, when, when people be like, you know, like just recently, you know, Mike August, who's working with Corolla.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know Mike.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He produces Corolla.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He calls me up and he's like, look, what do you think about a live thing where it's you and Adam and Andrew Breitbart?
Marc:And I'm like, I would rather shoot myself in the fucking mouth.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I said, I'm not in that venue anymore.
Marc:And he's like, no, it's gonna be fun.
Marc:I'm like, I don't know for who, it wouldn't be fun for me.
Marc:It's not my wheelhouse anymore.
Marc:And that whole thing, I was always a cultural commentator and I was always a guy in search of himself and highly analytical of himself.
Marc:And, you know, early on when I watch like my 1989 evening of the improv, you know, I can still see myself there.
Marc:I don't watch old tapes of me and go, who the fuck was that guy?
Marc:I can definitely see a guy trying to find his voice.
Marc:And, you know, and when I watch that HBO special, which a lot of people love, I see a guy that like, you know, maybe should have prepared a little better.
Yeah.
Marc:you know like i had a big opportunity there i could have done some stronger jokes there was a couple there and i also am very hard on myself in that like i don't necessarily think that i i am as structurally as as as good as i could be and and that maybe if i put more work into like like putting together bits like you do and really finding you know these beats within things i find them you know as the bit evolves but i certainly don't write them down so it could take me a year or two
Marc:to finish a joke.
Guest:Well, that was the thing that you said to me once, because you and I have known each other for about 10 years.
Guest:Almost everything you've ever said to me has stuck with me.
Guest:For better or for worse?
Guest:For better or for worse.
Guest:Because some of the stuff I think is true and some of it is not, but it's all provocative and bold, certainly.
Guest:You said that real comics don't write things down.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:You did.
Guest:You said that.
Guest:And I really took that to heart because I was like, oh, I guess I'm not a real comic.
Guest:I write everything down.
Guest:But you really don't.
Guest:I mean, it's a little bit... It's true, I don't.
Guest:It's a little bit Jay-Z-esque.
Guest:It's a little stupid.
Guest:No, but like, do you ever see that Jay-Z documentary?
Guest:I think it's called Fade to Black.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where he's going in the studio and it's just all in there.
Guest:He just builds it up and then they roll tape.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he just...
Guest:He just fucking wraps an album.
Marc:Well, it's all well and good until you get a brain injury or you get old, and then you have to go fishing for bits that you don't do anymore in your head, and they're gone because your brain can only function to a certain degree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But because of that, the one thing that you can say...
Marc:that i can't is that if someone said that's a great bit you could say you know yeah i wrote that down and and to my mystical self i don't know where the fuck my jokes come from i listen to jokes on those first two records yeah and i like i was thinking about today that cell phone joke that i used to do about i don't think beethoven had any idea that one day his fifth symphony would admit from some idiot's pocket response would be oh fuck it's my mom that's funny yeah but i don't know where it came from
Marc:You don't remember the incarnation.
Marc:Well, I mean, I know that the idea makes sense, but if you look at my notebooks, they're probably just going to say cell phone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Beethoven.
Guest:I remember looking at your website many years ago.
Guest:Oh, yeah, with the napkins?
Guest:And you had your napkins where you had...
Guest:You had written like, you know, this is the napkin that I wrote the cell phone joke on or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just thought that that was the most one of the most self-serving things I've ever seen on a website, which is a self-serving platform to begin with.
Marc:Well, I just like the way they looked because they somehow looked like weird artifacts to me.
Guest:This is what Sarah Silverman asks.
Guest:First of all, she says, congratulations, Mark.
Guest:And then she also says, you are love, love, loved, love, Sarah.
Guest:She's really affectionate towards you.
Guest:I know.
Guest:All these people are, by the way, all the people who wrote these questions.
Guest:And she says, with all the success you're having, will your brilliant and endearing insecurities and vulnerabilities swell or subside?
Guest:What do you think will happen and what do you hope will happen?
Marc:I'm just trying to, my concern is that I will get inflated.
Marc:What do you mean by that?
Marc:That I'll get cocky and I'll do something stupid or, you know, I'll, you know, I'll get filled with myself.
Marc:I think the fear of that is more, you know, I do have a fear of the other shoe dropping, but I seem to have some effective machinery in place now to, to, to fight the panic because I was fueled by panic and anxiety.
Marc:That was really what drove me fear and anxiety.
Marc:It's just that, that was, that was, yeah, I can relate to that.
Marc:I was made of that.
Marc:But I've had some success with not projecting too far into the future and foreseeing doom.
Marc:With this?
Guest:With this project?
Marc:No, just in my life.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:In my being.
Marc:I'm not sitting here.
Marc:I had to fight it.
Marc:I had a real fight with it.
Marc:My fear, I don't think I'm going to lose my insecurity.
Marc:I think that I might feel a little bit more grounded than I have, which is probably good.
Marc:But my fear is that, like, not that it'll go to my head so much, but that I'll get too comfortable and I'll start taking things for granted.
Marc:Right, and the work will get worse.
Marc:Yeah, I have that fear.
Marc:The comedy will get less funny.
Marc:Yeah, well, no, I don't, like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know where my comedy comes from, so I don't know.
Marc:And from talking every two days on this mic, things keep generating.
Marc:And I sort of surprise myself every week.
Marc:Not like, oh, look at what I did.
Marc:But like, oh, that's pretty good.
Marc:I should make note of that, material-wise.
Marc:But who the hell knows what's going to happen?
Marc:But no, my fear is not that I'm not going to be funny.
Marc:My fear is that maybe I might not need to be funny.
Guest:I emailed Carlos Mencia.
Guest:I didn't email him.
Guest:I don't know him.
Marc:He seems more than willing to talk to me.
Guest:Well, I emailed his manager and got kind of a negative response back.
Guest:Just kind of like, well, I don't know why you're asking me this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Since he came on the show and then Mark had two guys come on and shit on him after that or whatever it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and I was curious, do you feel I think Carlos, since being on the show, has taken a little bit of a hit career wise.
Guest:And I'm curious, do you feel any guilt over that?
Marc:i don't think that whatever he's experienced in career rights anything to do with me i mean the the feedback i got from that was you know for whatever it's worth people saw carlos as a human you know i gave him a free mic oh yeah to sort of explain himself like he the first episode he you know he basically was trying to reinvent himself in front of me he had an agenda here yeah it was great
Marc:And then the second episode was this guy barely keeping it together.
Marc:So I think people became more empathetic about him.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't think I was responsible for any... But the Willie Barsena stuff was so damning.
Marc:Was it?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I mean, because I didn't know who Willie Barsena... They were both pretty diplomatic, I thought.
Guest:No, no, I agree.
Guest:But I think that Willie's... I didn't know who Willie was, even though he's a very well-known comic.
Guest:And I just... I was listening to him just going, oh, this guy seems really...
Guest:nice and level-headed and funny and and he's really being honest he's opening up about this guy who stole from him and that was that was very compelling I thought well I think you know like I don't think I sandbagged him at all and I thought that you know Willie and Steve were guys that
Marc:knew him and and liked him steve was you know as you know i don't know much about steve either but i mean he worked with him but he was fairly uh you know diplomatic but in saying that he loved the guy and willie was like look you know we hung out when we were younger and you know i noticed he didn't write things down and now i do you know when he comes in the room i don't uh do jokes in front of him yeah yeah
Marc:But I don't know that that that I had anything to do.
Marc:And I bet you if we call Carlos directly, he would talk.
Marc:I mean, talk to The New York Times.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I mean, I didn't you know, I wasn't completely comfortable with that situation.
Marc:I mean, towards the end of that interview, I was trying to end it because I was like, all right, all right, all right, all right.
Guest:You know, yeah, it's tough.
Guest:I mean, the Gallagher one was tough for me.
Guest:The Gallagher episode.
Guest:Because I was a little bit on Gallagher's side.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was just listening going, well, you know, okay.
Guest:He's not that funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a little over the hill.
Guest:Just let the fucking guy just go on the road and be offensive and homophobic.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:I didn't even really care about that.
Guest:But you did take him...
Guest:You said, well, what does this say to your audience?
Guest:What does this mean?
Guest:When you say this joke, what does that mean?
Marc:Yeah, because bottom line, he was a fucking guy that was a clown.
Marc:He's a fucking clown.
Marc:And I never had any respect for him when I was a kid.
Marc:I didn't have any respect for him then.
Marc:I wouldn't have interviewed him hadn't I gotten the opportunity.
Marc:Now, my position on this show is that I...
Marc:wanted to, I said, well, I'm going to do this.
Marc:Can I find some love for this guy?
Marc:I didn't hate the guy.
Marc:I just, you know, he wasn't, he was never my style.
Marc:My little brother loved him.
Marc:What am I going to do?
Marc:Kids loved him.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:Fine.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But he was still, you know, he's a prop act and he's a hack, but he did invent something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the thing that, that, that struck me from that interview, and I never would have even thought about it other than that is, is he was, you called him out on telling street jokes on stage, which is the hackiest thing you can do.
Guest:Yeah, but I started thinking about, you know, is there something wrong with street jokes?
Guest:Because I, you know, you nor I would ever tell a street joke on stage.
Guest:It's not what we're into.
Guest:I have.
Guest:But if people are into it.
Guest:Oh, you have?
Guest:And when I was starting out, sure.
Guest:Because the Gallagher thing made me think of the first time I was opening for, first time I was opening for someone who did a street joke.
Guest:It was like a terrible college gig.
Guest:And I was opening up for this guy who I really respected, and I still do.
Guest:I'm not going to say who it is because I don't want to out him that he did a street joke in a show.
Guest:And he couldn't end.
Guest:This is why people do street jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he couldn't get a big enough laugh to close the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And finally, I'm watching him just kind of reel, and then finally he goes, all right, well...
Guest:you know, take this home or whatever.
Guest:It's a confidence thing though, really.
Guest:And then he did a street joke and I was like, man, I didn't even know that was a thing.
Guest:I didn't know as a comedian, you could say things that other people say or that is, that is, that is.
Marc:I think they used to phrase it like as the take home joke.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like, but in the eighties, there was a lot of things going on in that last few minutes.
Marc:I mean, there was a dude named Dan Scannell who used to do backflips.
Yeah.
Guest:There were guys... That just sounds like one of those things that you'd make up about the 80s.
Marc:No, no, he did it.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:He would do it, like a standing backflip.
Marc:There were musical numbers.
Marc:You always felt the closer.
Marc:And I don't even have a closer anymore.
Marc:I don't mind if I don't close strong, which is one of the... But getting back to Gallagher, one of the mistakes I made on that interview was that I didn't really cite...
Marc:The examples.
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Marc:What he was doing was he was putting canned fruit on a thing and saying, let's do this to the fruits and smashing it with his hammer.
Marc:And he was doing that with Asian vegetables.
Marc:And then he was doing these horrendous jokes.
Marc:I don't have any problem with street jokes.
Marc:But my problem with him was I was more than willing to integrate him into the history of comedy through me in my understanding of it.
Marc:I knew he started the comedy store.
Marc:And right away, even with that stuff, he's like, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, why don't I have a talk show?
Guest:Oh, my God, I know.
Guest:That was the thing that I couldn't get over.
Guest:I was talking to Mulaney about this recently.
Guest:We were walking around New York just obsessing over that Gallagher interview.
Guest:The fact that he would go, I went on the road, but I could have had a talk show.
Guest:I could have had a sitcom.
Guest:And it was like, well, what would that have even been?
Marc:Yeah, but then he justifies it like he was doing the real work.
Marc:That was the most offensive thing.
Marc:I was out there selling tickets.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so you decided to be a one-man circus.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's how you saw show business, and that is definitely part of show business.
Marc:But then to resent somebody for sacrificing that in order to try to get a job on television, which is this other area of show business, is crazy.
Marc:And then to think that you were entitled to that...
Marc:Whatever the case was, by the time he left, I was surprised that he left.
Marc:I was willing to get past the politically incorrect stuff because it wasn't about political incorrectness.
Marc:I just wanted him to answer to it.
Marc:And the way he answered to it was, it's not even my jokes.
Marc:And it turns out in that interview, I thought you saw exactly who he was.
Marc:He was homophobic.
Marc:He is delusional.
Marc:He's angry.
Marc:And he's also got an incredibly distorted vision of what comedy is.
Marc:And once he started dismissing every comedy,
Marc:every comic that I respected and, and talk to me like that to talk down to me like that.
Marc:I can only take so much of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was, I thought I was pretty fucking nice about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is, but I don't care what anyone says.
Guest:This is a question that this is related.
Guest:Mulaney and I were talking about John Mulaney and I were talking about this today.
Guest:And I guess this would be his question for you, which is, is our collective question, which is what is edgy these days in comedy?
Yeah.
Marc:Being completely honest about yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do you do that?
Marc:Yeah, I've always done it.
Marc:But I never thought it was edgy.
Guest:Yeah, I have a big pet peeve with the word edgy.
Marc:Yeah, I got thrown that out a lot.
Marc:People used to use that a lot.
Marc:I just don't think there's any, you know, you can talk politics.
Marc:You can say, like, you know, I want the Pope to eat my balls.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Jesus lives in my ass.
Marc:You can run around and say nigger if you want to as a white person and couch it in something that enables you to say it so you can feel the juice of saying it.
Marc:You can do all that shit.
Marc:But that's not edgy.
Marc:I mean, what is the edge?
Marc:What I have found just by virtue of doing this show and by virtue of what I do or what somebody like Louis does, and I think you do it as well on a good day if you're willing to take the emotional risks,
Marc:you know, which you do, you know, to talk about some freakish disease that you have that compromised your life and put you through something.
Marc:To me, that's edgy, you know, because like, and it's not even something I aspire to, but I realized that the power of somebody saying, I need help is a lot more threatening to somebody than hearing, than hearing like, you know, Jesus lives in my ass.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because like, first of all, Jesus doesn't live in your ass and I believe in Jesus.
Marc:So that's offensive to me.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So one guy's like, that's it with this guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But to express your heart and to stay in it and make it funny, that's more of a risk for you and for the audience.
Marc:To risk personal rejection.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:From an audience.
Marc:Yeah, but also to reveal to the audience because we live in a day and age when somebody needs help, most people are like, I got no time.
Marc:I mean, I have healthy boundaries and I wish I could be there for you.
Marc:If there's something I can, I can give you some money for coffee or I can give you a phone number of a guy.
Marc:But most people have foregone just by virtue of their own self-involvement empathy and the ability to actually hear someone's problems without feeling drained or feeling like, what is expected of me?
Marc:And that's a lot of what I learned on this podcast, just by listening to people.
Marc:It was very difficult.
Marc:I like to listen to people, despite what anyone may think of me.
Marc:I love hearing stories.
Marc:I love to laugh.
Marc:I like being emotionally engaged.
Marc:But it took me a long time to be an active listener and realize, like, you don't have to say anything.
Marc:You don't have to say anything here, and this doesn't implicate you at all.
Marc:This is this person's experience.
Marc:Be empathetic and hold your ground as a person who's empathetic.
Marc:And I think that's somewhat challenging for a comedy audience, not a theater audience.
Marc:I mean, they expect that in a theater.
Marc:But I think that in comedy, to ride that line.
Marc:I mean, what's really edgy is when people are saying, like, is this guy okay?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think you're right.
Marc:I mean, it's a little crazy.
Guest:Well, I...
Guest:you know I know your work really well and I would describe it as you know autobiographical and honest and but what is it I always think about this with my own work what is it you're not saying because it's like I can listen to you go well I have problem with relationships and I because I'm controlling and I'm this and I'm this and I can hear the broad strokes of what you're describing as your as your downfalls
Guest:But it's like, why, with all due respect, are you twice divorced and have all kinds of rocky shit with the girl that you're with right now and weren't with last week?
Guest:I mean, what are you doing in these relationships specifically?
Guest:And if that's too personal, then don't answer it.
Marc:No, it's not too personal in the sense that I think it's like, if I can track this shit down, even in my relationships with audiences...
Marc:Like one of the things that I'm not doing on stage is and one of the things that concerns me about me is that I have to, you know, acknowledge when I'm getting a laugh because people are uncomfortable and when I'm getting a laugh because I've said something funny.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:And like even on the last album that that I'm calling this has to be funny.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:There's a moment on it where I talk about my mother saying something that was pretty heartbreaking.
Marc:And before I said the joke, I said, this has to be funny.
Marc:I mean, it has to be.
Marc:I love that turn of phrase.
Marc:Right, but another comic would have just made it funny.
Marc:I mean, you know, like a lot of times I just tell the truth about the situation and people are like, oh my God.
Marc:So is there craft to that?
Marc:Is there anything other than just balls?
Marc:I mean, obviously I can say it on stage and not be afraid to say it on stage, but is that craft?
Marc:But that's one element.
Marc:Now...
Marc:The thing that you're asking me about relationships is that I believe that, you know, we're wired a certain way and that our parents, one way or the other, you know, puts in that board.
Marc:You know, they install the, you know, the main, you know, the motherboard, whatever it is.
Mm hmm.
Marc:And, you know, as I go on, like one of the revelations I had about this failing thing to to like I have a tremendous fear of embarrassment, which is weird.
Marc:And that's, you know, Harry Shearer.
Marc:And I've quoted this before, said, you know, comedians do what they do to try to control why people laugh at them.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I completely agree with you.
Guest:And yeah, you're controlling the narrative because you're going to get laughed at regardless.
Guest:But you're trying to control when and when and how.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I think what happened with me was that because my parents were so self involved that that I would seek negative attention.
Marc:that I knew I could get their attention if I fucked up.
Marc:I knew I could get their attention if I disappointed them.
Marc:I knew that they were not really prone to saying, I'm proud of you, we love you.
Marc:If you fail, it's okay, try again.
Marc:I never got that kind of reinforcement.
Marc:It's very hard for my mother and father now to say they're proud of me.
Marc:My mother had to teach herself how to do that.
Marc:So a lot of the attention that I sought as a child and through my life, subconsciously, was negative attention.
Marc:Because I knew if I fucked up, I would be the center of attention.
Marc:Now, when I was in that picture that's sitting on the desk there, that happy baby, my grandma used to call me the happy baby.
Marc:I was the first grandchild of all four grandparents.
Marc:I was the first child of my parents.
Marc:My grandmother's like, you're always the happiest baby.
Marc:You're always the happiest baby.
Guest:You really are.
Guest:I'm looking at it for people listening to this and not watching a video that doesn't exist.
Guest:A picture of Mark as an adorable baby.
Guest:I think in, like, some kind of pool.
Guest:A little blow-up pool.
Guest:And you're smiling ear to ear.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, what happened to that kid?
Marc:So, you know, to address what you're saying, I...
Marc:I walked through life, most of my life, looking for parent replacements.
Marc:Most of my idols and most of the men I gravitated towards as mentors or teachers were usually very aggravated, very raging, and very intense.
Marc:And I really felt that I was always, most of my life, it was spent like a kid lost at a mall waiting for someone to parent me.
Marc:So I had these very weird expectations.
Marc:And a lot of what I did on stage early on was defying an audience to like me, that I would push them to the edge and literally be like, now, do you like me?
Marc:Because that's the way I was brought up, that there was negative reinforcement.
Marc:And I believe that I expected an audience to like me no matter how much I fucked up because that's what I was wired to do to get emotional support.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And with my relationships, look, my first wife I married because I thought I should.
Marc:I was with her a long time and I was barely in control.
Marc:I wasn't in control of a drug problem really.
Marc:And she was very sort of there for me and very nice and supportive.
Marc:And I went with her a long time and I didn't feel like that I was in love with her necessarily, but I loved her and it felt comfortable enough.
Marc:And I thought this is when you get married.
Marc:I guess this is what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then that blew up and I met the second wife who got me sober and she was a comic and she was fucking stunning and she was younger than me and I was just completely in awe of her and put her up on a pedestal.
Marc:But she did get me sober.
Marc:But because I didn't have any time on my own in between those wives, I've always been very raging and very paranoid.
Marc:I always feel like I'm being emotionally manipulated so I react to those feelings even if they're not true.
Guest:So do you think that the same thing broke up each of your marriages?
Guest:It sounds like two different things.
Guest:It sounds like the first one was you felt an obligation to be in it and that's why you stayed.
Guest:And the second one was that you held her up on a pedestal and it created an uneven relationship.
Marc:Well, not only did I held her up on a pedestal, but I was completely paranoid that she was going to leave.
Marc:I always thought she was manipulating me.
Marc:I thought she was fucking with me when she said things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:and you know i couldn't handle if she didn't you know you know say you know that exactly what i wanted to hear and i was constantly defensive and uh and paranoid and and and i could not figure out a way to emotionally connect with her like i didn't trust uh my feelings i i w i had a hard time being touched i had a hard time being you know like held in any way because some part of me just didn't you know i wasn't wired that way i didn't get that
Marc:I was incapable of being nurturing to her.
Marc:I couldn't be selfless enough to be empathetic.
Marc:And because of sobriety and because of hitting the wall with these things, I've certainly been humbled.
Marc:And even with this girlfriend that I have now, we went through a horrible thing where it was that same shit.
Marc:I was yelling and screaming and she was yelling and screaming and I thought she was fucking with me and I thought that I was doomed and that she was going to ruin my life.
Marc:And there was all this fighting and I literally got physically sick and exhausted doing the same thing I did at the beginning of my second marriage.
Guest:So do you think that you thrived on the drama and the excitement and the stress of the whole thing?
Marc:You know, thriving is something that's an indulgence that you could talk about in retrospect.
Marc:You know, am I addicted to drama?
Marc:Is that I didn't know what else to do.
Marc:That wasn't happening because, you know, I made a decision to do it.
Marc:I mean, I didn't feel emotionally connected to somebody unless they were crying and I was apologizing.
Marc:It's a fucking sickness.
Marc:Mm hmm.
So.
Marc:And do you still have that?
Marc:Well, no, what happened with, like, I realized with this woman who, like, for some reason got through after three and a half years of complete fucking, you know, almost like detached sexual escapades out of, you know, spite and sadness.
Marc:You know, this girl gets through and I didn't know what to do with it.
Marc:She got into my heart and I had real feelings for her.
Marc:So I immediately started saying, well, it's got to be fucked up because I'm fucked up.
Marc:And then sure enough, it started to be just as fucked up as the last one.
Marc:And, you know, we broke up dramatically.
Marc:I threw her out of my life.
Marc:I cut her off completely.
Marc:And I felt horrible because I still had these feelings for her.
Marc:And...
Marc:I went to some Al-Anon meetings.
Marc:I went to sex and love addicts meetings.
Marc:I called people who knew how to support the kind of situation I was in because I didn't feel like I was obsessed, but I really felt like I loved her.
Marc:And when you're a person that goes through what I've gone through with the sobriety and everything else, you sort of try to pathologize everything.
Marc:You don't trust anything.
Marc:You're like, well, this is just love addiction.
Marc:That's what this is.
Marc:This is codependency.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, fine.
Marc:I'll go to the meetings.
Marc:But then it still persisted my feelings.
Marc:So we got back together and I made a conscious choice to let myself love her.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And it makes me sad and it makes me, you know, right now I feel choked up because like I'm capable of it.
Marc:I'm a pretty sensitive guy.
Marc:I was just so afraid of it that I fought it and I fought it in the form of fighting people who love me.
Marc:And I'm just letting it happen.
Marc:Okay, she's nuts in a certain way, but who the fuck am I to judge?
Marc:I spent three months away from her thinking like, I'm the moral high ground?
Marc:I'm gonna be the guy that draws a line on what unhealthy is?
Marc:No, no, that girl's crazy.
Marc:Who the hell am I?
Marc:You know, if I'm going to work through this shit, what I'm going to, I'm going to find a well-adjusted person.
Marc:How long do you think a well-adjusted person would take my shit?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:How long, how long?
Marc:So, so I just decided, well, this is what my heart's doing.
Marc:Why don't you just honor it, dude, and shut the fuck up and, and, and fucking take the hit if it's going to be a hit.
Marc:I've taken bigger hits.
Marc:And see if you can do it.
Marc:See if you can, you know, when something upsets you or you think you're being manipulated or you think that you're being fucked with.
Marc:And then I also realized after two marriages, I had no fucking idea what, how did, you know, that women were this way or that way, that there were certain things that you could just let go.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I'm discovering that.
Guest:That like, you know, dude, it's just- You don't have to dwell on every little incongruity.
Guest:You can just go, okay, so that's what that is.
Marc:And also there might be some sort of dynamic between male-female relationships and not to be hackneyed about it.
Marc:That's not perfect, but also it's sort of like you're not going to get to the bottom of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Without being, you know, like a hack comedian, I would assume that, you know, when you have a relationship, it's interesting how some of those hackneyed premises are actually true.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:That's why people paid for the babysitter on Friday night to come see you.
Guest:They want you to say those things and make them feel it's okay that their relationship is so fucked up.
Marc:Right, but also I find that my feelings and my anger and my fucking, you know, insecurities and all that stuff, those are true too.
Marc:But you don't hear a lot of that.
Marc:What do you mean you don't hear a lot of that?
Marc:I get emails from people that say, I'm so glad you're speaking your mind because I thought I was fucking alone.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:No, I think that's actually the most satisfying thing about doing the comedy, the kind of comedy that you and I both do, which is when people go, oh, I feel this and I didn't know anybody else.
Marc:And believe me, the best thing you can do as a comic is make someone feel less alone.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I mean, Jesus Christ.
Marc:I mean, it's one thing to blow minds.
Marc:And the two things that I think are essential with good comedy is you actually make somebody see something in a different way.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Completely.
Marc:Or that you make people feel less alone.
Guest:There's another question from Doug Stanhope.
Guest:If you could go back to One Vice for a long weekend, which would it be?
Guest:And which previous WTF guest would you do it with?
Guest:Doug Stanhope, by the way, probably my favorite comic right now.
Guest:I saw him at Caroline's last month.
Guest:Incredible.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, he's great.
Guest:He's got like a new hour every 15 minutes.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:He's so prolific, it's ridiculous.
Marc:He was just here.
Marc:I did a second interview with him.
Marc:Well, you mean if I was going to do it with somebody else?
Marc:You're saying if I was going to sit down?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:If you're going to go back to Coke or drinking or rampant sex or whatever.
Marc:Well, that wasn't that long ago.
Guest:Which loops in, by the way, to Jonathan Ames had a similar question.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Jonathan Ames' question is, what weird behavior has a comedian brought up that you've subsequently tried?
Guest:That's kind of a similar question.
Marc:Okay, I'll try to think about that.
Marc:Well, if I was going to do drugs alone, I think that I miss pot more than anything else.
Marc:If I was going to sit and hammer one out and get to the bottom of things with a bottle of Jack Daniels and some blow, who the fuck would I do that with?
Marc:Give me some options.
Marc:God damn it.
Guest:You got Maria Bamford, David Cross.
Marc:No, I've done that with him.
Guest:Sarah Silverman, Todd Berry.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:And I can't see myself.
Marc:Michael Showalter.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Doing Boy with Michael Showalter would be like a nightmare.
Guest:You guys would end up in a nine-hour semiotics conversation.
Marc:It would be some sort of existential play.
Guest:It seems like you would want to spend a lot of time with Maria Bamford.
Guest:That interview you did with her.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't want to do drugs with her.
Marc:I saw her this morning at the coffee shop.
Marc:I just want to be- She lived here too?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:I just... One of her questions was... I just like sitting with her.
Guest:One of her questions was, can I have a Cat Ranch t-shirt medium ladies baby tea?
Guest:That was her question.
Marc:Ladies baby tea?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Let's see.
Marc:I don't think I could... Me and Stan Hope would be okay for a while, but I think he sort of does his own thing when he's fucked up.
Marc:Um...
Guest:Louis?
Marc:No, I don't want to sit down and do blow with Louis.
Marc:I don't want to sit down and do blow with a towel because he would leave.
Guest:Louis's question, by the way.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Louis's question, by the way.
Guest:I called him today.
Guest:And I said, do you have any questions for Mark?
Guest:He goes, I don't have anything.
Guest:Tell him I said hi.
Guest:I don't know if he's mad at me again.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:He seemed fine.
Guest:He seemed well-wishing.
Guest:He's just a busy person.
Marc:I understand that.
Marc:Glenn Wohl would be fun to party with.
Marc:Brendan Walsh would be fun to have a few beers with.
Marc:Um...
Marc:Jim Jeffries might be fun to drink with.
Marc:They all seem like professional drinkers and partiers.
Marc:That would be fun.
Marc:I don't think I want to do blow with you.
Marc:Why?
Marc:I just think we'd get all wrapped up in the wrong conversation.
Marc:And oddly, the thought of doing blow just paralyzes me.
Marc:I can't even imagine it.
Guest:This interview is like us doing blow, by the way.
Marc:Could you imagine doing blow with Ira Glass?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Something just happened inside of me even thinking about that.
Marc:I'd like to get high with Doug Benson again.
Marc:That'd be fun.
Marc:You know, so, you know, there's a few there.
Marc:Not this.
Marc:They're not surprises.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but I don't ever see myself doing blow.
Marc:If I ever miss anything, it's pot.
Guest:Ira Glass didn't have a question.
Guest:He just deferred to Anahid, his wife.
Guest:Oh, God, yeah.
Guest:Who had a lot of questions.
Guest:One of hers that was my favorite is, you know, as people might know from listening to the podcast, you save these feral cats and keep them here at the ranch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And feral cats are cats who are in the wild who you save, essentially.
Guest:I have a few, yeah.
Guest:And she said, do you see yourself as one of these feral cats?
Guest:Do you relate to the cats?
Yeah.
Marc:I think emotionally, yeah, I do.
Marc:Because on some level.
Marc:I like them because they're so weird and twitchy and quirky and they're never quite comfortable.
Marc:They're not like domesticated cats.
Marc:All of them are a little uncomfortable.
Marc:But they've gotten to know me.
Marc:And when you meet a feral cat, usually their parents are around.
Marc:They're just not being properly parented in the human form.
Marc:But I like them because they're very unique.
Marc:They have a lot of personality.
Marc:They don't get fat because they're wired to sort of be always on their fucking guard.
Marc:But yeah, I can see that.
Marc:And I don't do a lot of it.
Marc:I did it once in a one foul swoop.
Marc:I saved five or six cats.
Marc:And I have two of those cats from the original dumpster cats.
Marc:And then this one that I adopted, they were all a few months old.
Marc:So they weren't like living in the wild very long, but they're wired wild.
Marc:That one I got at a shelter because it seemed to have personality.
Marc:So that's how fucking dumb I am.
Marc:And that's sort of like emotionally, too.
Marc:I'm like, let's get the one that seems crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yeah.
Guest:One of one of Anahid's other questions was, do you think that Coke changed your brain in some way?
Marc:For a while, it took me a long time to shake the voices.
Marc:I really coke myself in a psychotic state through sleeplessness and everything else, but it went away.
Marc:I think coke actually had this weird Ritalin effect on me.
Marc:I felt really intensely, aggressively calm.
Marc:But yeah, it fucked me up for a while, but that went away after about a year and a half.
Marc:I mean, I'm coming up on 12 years here.
Guest:so uh you know most of that shit is i don't think it altered me permanently no yeah um she's on a heat's other question was i'm outside of oh you have this whole i'm outside of public radio they don't want me vibe and how do you feel now that that you're broadcast they're broadcasting your radio show
Marc:I feel a weird combination of being honored mixed with fuck you.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So they're airing like 10 episodes of it, I guess.
Marc:Yeah, but they're specially edited for them.
Marc:It's very honored.
Marc:I feel very honored.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm very happy that the conversations...
Marc:are engaging enough to sort of maybe be appealing to that audience.
Marc:But there is sort of, in a general sense, just because this thing has succeeded, I had no expectations out of what I'm doing here, that there is something validating about it in a way that I don't think I could have gotten any other way.
Marc:Because I've never really been a self-starter.
Marc:This thing was born out of desperation and fear.
Marc:And I love doing this.
Marc:I love talking on these kind of mics.
Marc:And...
Marc:something happened in here.
Marc:I can't explain it.
Marc:I don't know why it happens or why it happened, but, but I do know that it was really the, the, the, the, it was, it was all me and, and my original producer, Brendan, you know, and, and because of his support,
Marc:And his belief in me and also his incredible skill set and just, you know, this symbiotic thing that we had, you know, we this thing happened, but it was just ours, you know, and no one else could touch it.
Marc:And all of a sudden it's popular.
Marc:There's a pride in that you can't imagine.
Marc:There's a pride in it that's bigger than, you know, getting a joke over doing a good show.
Marc:because this is a thing that we're like this is our job you know we're doing this you know we have you know this is you know that we have a work ethic around this and we have a consistency to it and and equality to it and we do it twice a week and no one is telling us to do that but us that's fucking you know great and now there's an audience and you're like we got it you know the audience is waiting you know here's what jim gaffigan says my dearest mark
Guest:Congrats on being the Casey Kasem of podcasts.
Guest:After interviewing so many comedians, is there one single attribute they all share or are we all crazy?
Guest:Are stand-ups more crazies than sketch people?
Guest:It is an interesting question for you because you do seem to defend a lot of the sketch people as being a lot more grounded and centered.
Marc:I contend that to be true.
Marc:Still.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You said that to Amy Poehler.
Marc:Well, look, the very nature of what they do is work with other people.
Marc:So they got to be able to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know a lot of comics that innately are able to do that.
Marc:It's not their nature.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got to work at it.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:But, you know, when you're doing improv and sketch, your group mind, you know, you're able to do that.
Marc:You may drink a lot or whatever, but also, you know, they're not required to drag their fucking, you know, sad bag of shit up on stage either.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, it's you know, you're doing characters, you're doing improvs, you're acting in the moment where, you know, basically, you know, a comic, you know, at some point is like, all right, here's my bag.
Marc:Let's start going through it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think I always resent comedians who don't bring the bag.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think that you should be able to, you know, sometimes the bag is hidden just stage right, maybe off stage a little bit.
Marc:But but as long as the bag is somewhere that where I can see it, I'm OK with that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, most people don't like, you know, you know, take the bag and put it in front of them, you know, in between them and the mic and start holding shit up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But a lot of them do.
Marc:But if I can at least know that the bag is close by, I'm OK.
Marc:But the ones that don't seem to have a bag, I have a trouble with because I'm like, you know, I kind of want to see what's in the bag.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's some people that I'm like, I don't know who that guy is.
Marc:It's my only real criticism of comics.
Marc:Even the hackiest comics in the world, if I can see who they are, then I'm like, well, you know, he's the real deal because he's putting himself up there.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:I talked to Anahid for a long time last night, Ira Glass's wife, Anahid Alani, who you're friends with as well.
Guest:And she made this point that you... We've met a couple times.
Marc:I'd like to think we're friends.
Marc:I'd like to be friends with them.
Marc:Because I see that you probably go to dinner parties and stuff.
Marc:Right?
Marc:You guys have dinner together?
Marc:Come on over.
Marc:We'll have something to eat.
Guest:I have dinner.
Guest:My wife and I have dinner with Ira and Anahit sometimes.
Guest:For sure, yeah.
Guest:But we don't... No, dinner parties, no.
Marc:No, but I mean, I don't have dinner with anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I cook here at the house.
Guest:You know, it doesn't seem like you want friends, though.
Guest:I mean, I think Al Madrigal said that on his episode where he goes, he came here and he goes, I don't need, do you?
Guest:He goes, I'd come over.
Guest:No, he won't.
Guest:He's still allergic to cats.
Marc:Oh, is that what he said?
Marc:So he comes over to the house, and within three minutes, he's like, I got to get out of here.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:But I've gone to his house with his kids, and I like to do that.
Guest:But it seems like you don't really want friends.
Guest:It seems like that.
Marc:Am I wrong?
Marc:I've had bad experiences.
Marc:With friendships in a way.
Marc:I've become too demanding and I have to temper that.
Marc:I have to understand that people have lives and their life isn't dedicated to being there when I need them, exactly when I need them.
Marc:And I don't think I've tried lately.
Marc:You know, like I, you know, like one time I remember Chuck Sklar, you know, I was freaking out because I decided that we were best friends and I was, you know, having some sort of weird panic and, you know, he wouldn't engage or help me.
Marc:And I was like going yelling or something.
Marc:And he goes, you have a very expansive personality.
Marc:I don't know what that means, but for some reason I never forgot it because I feel like I'm a little emotionally demanding and I have to temper that.
Marc:So as I get older, my friendships are, there are people that I love a lot and a lot of people that don't know that I love them.
Marc:Like everybody that comes in here that I've known for 10 minutes, I feel deeply connected to.
Marc:You.
Marc:I do, because I knew you when you were younger, and I feel like we've been in the same, I really somehow or another think that we actually are a community.
Marc:And I believe that I'm very emotionally connected to people, like Attell.
Marc:I feel like we're fucking brothers, and a lot of times I'm wrong about people, but I've decided on this emotional connection, despite my brain, I feel connected to most of the people I talk to, one way or the other, in a very deep way.
Marc:I have these weird expectations around that.
Marc:It's unusual.
Marc:I know that
Marc:I, you know, I, I feel like I've never really tested it, but I imagine if I called you and I was in trouble, you would help me.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:I think I view it as a community as well.
Guest:And I think that's, I was talking to Amy Schumer and Anthony Jezelnak are staying at the same hotel as me.
Guest:And I ran into them last night at the hotel.
Guest:And it does, when you, when you run into comedians.
Marc:I do blow with him.
Guest:Anthony.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's very funny guy.
Guest:And when you run into comedians, I mean, we just started having drinks in the lobby.
Guest:And it's a great feeling.
Marc:Yeah, because there's no sort of like weird kind of like, so you're what, you're selling computers now?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You lock right into it.
Marc:You lock right in.
Guest:You pick it right up.
Guest:I don't talk to Amy or Anthony.
Marc:Ever.
Marc:Ever.
Marc:Ever.
Marc:But you're right there.
Marc:We pick it up right there.
Marc:And have a great time.
Marc:Yeah, unspoken language.
Guest:And Anthony said to me, because I go, you were good on that roast.
Guest:Because I didn't know what roast it was, but he was funny on some roasts.
Marc:The thing about Anthony is great.
Guest:He's like, yeah, it was, right?
Marc:There's a part of him that.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's aware.
Marc:He's aware of how well he did.
Marc:He's never like, thank you or really.
Marc:He's like, yeah, I think I did.
Marc:Yes, that went excellently.
Guest:Yeah, and he goes, would you ever do a roast?
Guest:And I'm like, fuck no.
Guest:I can't handle the idea of people talking about me that way.
Guest:I can't take it.
Guest:That was actually Jeff Garland's question for you, which is, he goes, how come you haven't had me back on the podcast?
Guest:Is it because you can't take it the way you dish it?
Guest:And and because he thinks that he put you in the spot and kind of and kind of I think that went both ways.
Marc:I'd have him back on.
Marc:But, you know, the thing about Jeff is, is that, you know, he's one of these and there are comics like him and he's not unique in that.
Marc:But no matter what show you're on with Jeff, it's the Jeff show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And or and if it's Mark, it's the Mark show.
Marc:I don't know if that's really true.
Marc:I think I'm more than happy to to take hits and I'm more than happy to be generous in giving up the stage.
Marc:Could you do a roast?
Marc:I've tried.
Marc:I don't know how to insult unless I'm cornered.
Marc:I could do a roast if the guy who I was roasting made me feel like shit or threatened me somehow.
Guest:You and I had this really funny bonding moment once where...
Guest:Where I was at the comedy cellar and other comics were really laying into me hard.
Guest:And they were laying into you.
Guest:And you and I would say stuff that was witty.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But witty doesn't go anywhere.
Guest:Oh, we were at the table?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Witty doesn't go anywhere with those people.
Guest:With Norton going, shut up, dummy.
Guest:Shut up.
Guest:Shut up, stupid.
Guest:And you and I were alone a few minutes later.
Guest:And you said to me this thing that I totally related to.
Guest:You go...
Guest:You go, I can't roast people because when I roast people, all of a sudden it becomes serious.
Guest:And that's how I feel.
Guest:Whenever I say, whenever I throw it back to people, I go, easy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Jesus.
Marc:Dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Cause it's not our format.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a language to it.
Marc:And there are guys who are good at it that you throw it back and forth, but I'm going right for the jugular too.
Marc:And I, you know, and I'm like, all you can do.
Guest:Well, no, it seems like the most logical progression is just go, okay, well what's fucked up about this guy.
Guest:I'm going to make a joke about that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And, but I think that we're missing some dance steps.
Marc:No, we are.
Marc:It's like guys who play poker together every week, that there's a language to roasting.
Marc:Even if you push it, it's got to have a certain tone, and I'm not good at that.
Guest:Amy Schumer's question last night when we were hanging out was, and she prefaced it by saying, I love Mark and think he's an incredible comic.
Guest:More than anyone else, I would want him to describe the most awkward sexual experience he's ever had on the road.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Marc:We can do that.
Marc:I gotta figure it out.
Guest:God, the most, how did she phrase it?
Guest:She said,
Guest:Amy Schumer's question was... Let me find it here.
Guest:By the way, Maria Bamford, just a well-wish on your 200th episode.
Guest:Mark, you are providing a meaningful service for fellow comics.
Guest:You are a comedy industry whistleblower on the hidden issues of hotel room loneliness, masturbation, and cookie intake that have gone too long unreported, and you've become the great man that your cats have always wanted you to be.
Guest:Thank you, and please give me a t-shirt, Maria Bamford.
Marc:Okay, I'll give her one.
Marc:I saw her this morning.
Marc:So how did Amy Schumer phrase that?
Guest:Amy Schumer's question was, more than anyone else, I would want Mark to describe the most awkward sexual experience he's ever had on the road.
Guest:Well, you know, I'm not a freak.
Marc:Really, I don't find myself in situations that are too sexually weird.
Marc:But obviously there's been some awkwardness early on.
Marc:There was a time when I was married or with somebody, and I remember I was in L.A.
Marc:doing coke, and I ended up in a hotel room with a waitress.
Marc:And we were having this great sort of like, when you're on coke, you earn your sex because it's no easy trick to get a heart on when you're all coked up.
Marc:But once you get it, look out.
Marc:And, you know, we're in this thing and it's fucking insane and it's going great.
Marc:And I had no idea that she was literally marking me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think she did it intentionally.
Marc:Like she was pinching my sides.
Marc:Like I woke up and I had these weird bruises all over my side.
Marc:She had scratched me up.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And I think it was really to send me home and to teach me a lesson, you know, like explain that to your girlfriend.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And at that time, like I literally had to make it look like a rash.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And that was pretty awkward and sad and fucked up and an asshole thing to do.
Marc:But there have been some pretty great, you know, blowjobs in liquor storage cabinets.
Marc:There's been, you know, sex in offices.
Marc:There's been, you know, cars, you know, rides home from clubs.
Guest:How much of the sex stuff is why you got into comedy?
Guest:Is it part of it?
Guest:No, I never thought of that.
Marc:A lot of guys are like, that's an easy way to meet girls.
Marc:I'm like, I never assumed that girls would like me anyway.
Guest:That's what Lucian always said.
Guest:Lucian Hold, who's the original booker of the comic strip, who loved you.
Guest:Passed away a few years ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It took him a while.
Guest:When I first auditioned, he was like, I've already got enough angry white guys.
Guest:Yeah, no, he told me he already had Jim Gaffigan, Todd Berry, and Jeffrey Ross, so he didn't need me.
Guest:And then he became my manager later.
Guest:But he said, you know, there's the comedians who do it for the women, and there's the comedians who do it for the art.
Guest:And which one of those do you think you are?
Marc:Definitely the art, if that's possible.
Marc:The women thing always surprised me.
Guest:Do you think that there are great comedians who do it for the women?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Who?
Guest:You think Pryor did it for the women?
Marc:No, I think that...
Marc:Hicks?
Marc:No, definitely not.
Guest:Every time I encounter the guys who do it for the women, I always go, he could be better.
Marc:Oh, well, I don't know if I know precisely who they are, but I think a lot of people got into it for the lifestyle.
Marc:That there was something about having the freedom to not wake up.
Marc:you know, to drink as much as they want, to be one step ahead of the tax people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, to be in a different town every night.
Marc:That there's a lot of people that I think got into it because it gave them a freedom to live a life, you know, off the grid.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And so there's definitely people that got in it for the life.
Marc:I definitely got into it because, you know, I wanted to have a point of view.
Marc:I wanted to share, you know, my thoughts on life.
Marc:I wanted to have thoughts on life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I wanted to get the, you know, I wanted to make people laugh and blow their minds.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:To me, women have always been like, really?
Marc:Great.
Marc:You like me?
Marc:Well, now put up with me.
Marc:I never knew how to get laid.
Guest:Are comics capable of being good in a relationship?
Guest:I was in a romantic relationship.
Guest:I went to visit my ex-girlfriend.
Guest:We were engaged.
Guest:We were going to get married.
Guest:was terrible I fucked around it was it was a bad scene yeah bad part of my life I talked about a lot in sleepwalk with me but I recently was I visited her and her family and I said to her I was like she
Guest:why did you stay with me?
Guest:Why?
Guest:I mean, I was terrible.
Guest:Like, why, why do we, were we together six years?
Guest:And she said the worst thing that I think a comic can hear.
Guest:She goes, you know, we had a lot of laughs.
Marc:But that's, but that is not the worst thing you can hear.
Guest:It is because you, because that's what people pay you for.
Guest:So it's like, but it's not that kind of thing.
Marc:You have to, but you comparing yourself to people that live, you know, lives that, you know, are full of structure and a job and everything else.
Marc:The truth of the matter is,
Marc:We have a lot of freedom.
Marc:You know, we can talk like no one else talks, you know, on stage and off.
Marc:There's a certain past we get.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if there is women that are attracted to that, the type of good time and attention that they get and also the type of lifestyle that they're involved in is unique and it's a little exciting.
Marc:You know, there's a lot of baggage that comes with that with some of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But oddly, to get back to Schumer's question, the most awkward sexual experience I had was with this woman that I'm with now.
Marc:I mean, I got an email through my website basically saying, I want to fuck you.
Marc:And because I was not married and I could do that, I was like, for sure, let's do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I went up there and I met her and I didn't really remember.
Marc:I'd met her once before.
Marc:I didn't remember what she looked like.
Marc:And I meet her in Portland.
Marc:She comes up for the comedy festival.
Marc:I go to her hotel and literally I walk in.
Marc:It looked like she had brought every item of clothing that she had.
Marc:There were clothes all over the place.
Marc:It was just a fucking look like a hurricane hit the place.
Marc:And there was this cute girl that was like, hi.
Marc:And I'm like, right in it.
Guest:You know, I'm like, okay.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:It was so connected.
Marc:And I see the thing about me is like, I've never been very passive sexually.
Marc:I don't know how to have, you know, recreational sex that isn't, you know, I need to connect with somebody's fucking being, you know, I'm not a guy that can be like, just sort of like, yeah, you'll do.
Marc:You know, I, you know, I need to really be intensely connected.
Marc:And that's not what people expect out of a one night stand.
Marc:So, you know, when I get in, like, if I'm with somebody sexually, I'm going deep.
Marc:And, you know, not just sexually, you know, I, you know, I needed to be fucking life altering.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, and, and because of that, I've, I've, uh, you know, I've heard some, you know, I've heard some feelings.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because with that comes, you know, probably a lot of people, women you've been with, that was the first time that they've been with someone, a guy who's emotionally open.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they're like, I found him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I found my guy.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:And that was my trouble with being single before I met my wife is I was like, oh, this will be great.
Guest:I'll be single on the road.
Guest:And every fucking week I would meet someone and then it'd be like, I'd meet a girl who'd go, well, I found my guy.
Guest:I'd be like, oh, no, I'm just, I got to go to the thing.
Guest:No, I'm like this all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With anybody.
Guest:It was always a disaster.
Guest:Always.
Guest:And I realized that fundamentally it wasn't who I could be.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, during the podcast and before I locked down with this chick and during that period where I was divorced, I definitely took advantage of the fact that I didn't really realize it when people would say, because I don't think I have much game.
Marc:I can't just walk into a bar.
Guest:I'm sure of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't just walk into a bar where people don't know me and say, I'm going to work that chick.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Forget it.
Marc:But I never gave much credence to the fact that I did have some celebrity.
Marc:I never really thought of it that way.
Marc:I still thought, I'm the luckiest guy in the world.
Marc:This girl likes me?
Marc:Without thinking she might have been resonating with who I was on stage or listening to me or whatever.
Marc:I never, ever thought that was why I got women, which was stupidity on my part.
Marc:But definitely I got around a bit.
Marc:But I do have, my sexual needs are dwarfed by my emotional needs.
Marc:And, you know, and I do, you know, seek to do a good job.
Marc:Like I'm very hung up on, you know, like making sure a woman like gets off and, you know, is like has great sex.
Marc:So that mixed with my emotional needs that are always there is, you know, it can be a misleading combination.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:did you get uh oh todd barry says have you ever thought about doing a michael moore 60 minutes style ambush interview like flying to omaha kicking down the door of a comedy condo and ask a bunch of questions to a comic while he's making a blt that's a good idea thank you todd i will do that what's going on in here i'm sorry i'm with i'm with wtf please just you know put the sandwich down i just want to ask you a couple questions
Marc:Yeah, that's a good idea.
Marc:Thank you, Todd.
Guest:I emailed Eugene.
Guest:He couldn't... Oh, actually, you know, Eugene did end up coming through the question, but it was stuff that we'd covered already.
Guest:Eugene.
Guest:Michael Ian Black asks, Why are you such a consistent dick to me?
Marc:Is he asking himself that?
Guest:He's asking you.
Guest:He's one of the nicest guys in show business.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I believe the persona for years.
Marc:I believe that he was the guy he is on stage.
Marc:And that's who I usually am engaging with.
Marc:And it wasn't until recently that we got past that.
Marc:And I think we've gotten past that.
Marc:Maybe I need to do a long episode with him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Because I just always assumed that he was a dick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Such a sweet guy.
Marc:Was he always a sweet guy?
Guest:I've asked him.
Guest:He and I have done some college gigs.
Guest:We have the same agent.
Guest:And so we've spent some car trips together.
Guest:And I said to him the similar thing.
Guest:I was like, you seemed like an asshole.
Guest:You seemed like you were completely aloof and you were thrilled with yourself and all this stuff.
Guest:And so I was always like, yeah, fuck that guy.
Guest:And now I meet you and you're just the salt of the earth guy.
Guest:And was I wrong?
Guest:Well, what happened?
Yeah.
Guest:And he claims that that's always who he was.
Guest:He was just shy.
Guest:Shy seems to be an alibi that a lot of people claim on this show.
Guest:Dane claimed shy, I noticed.
Guest:Dane, I found... Your interview with Dane, I found Dane to be very endearing.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:I was like, yeah, that guy seems nice.
Guest:He does a good job.
Guest:David Cross says...
Guest:I would say that I wish Mark well and that I can't believe, what was it, 22 years ago back in Boston, he kept saying to anybody who would listen that someday he'd have his own podcast.
Guest:No one knew what the fuck he was talking about.
Guest:He was drinking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And would constantly have to, we'd have to tell him to shut up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now look, he's totally right.
Guest:His question is, what does he consider to be more of his true mortal enemy, his cock or his brain?
Guest:My brain.
Guest:That's an easy one.
Marc:Yeah, no, you know, my cock needs a lot of help from my brain.
Marc:So it starts there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sue Costello says, what are you doing differently to take care of yourself so that you can actually enjoy your success?
Marc:I'm not...
Marc:Letting myself think too far ahead and then reacting to those thoughts as if they're a reality.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Not wiser words have been said.
Guest:That's a really good idea.
Guest:That's the death of me all the time.
Guest:Four steps ahead.
Marc:Yeah, your brain is making stuff up for you to freak out about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we desire the anxiety.
Guest:Is that what it is?
Marc:No, I don't think it's about desire.
Marc:I think it's preemptive.
Marc:It's a defensive mode.
Marc:You're preparing for the worst.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And quite honestly, the worst might not happen.
Marc:It probably won't.
Marc:But you're all prepared for it.
Marc:And then a lot of times you enter that thing that you've prepared for as if it's going to be the worst thing ever.
Marc:And it could be a great thing.
Marc:God, it sounds so healthy what I just said.
Guest:Greg Fitzsimmons asks, what's your favorite flavor of Ben and Jerry's?
Marc:I fucking like the peanut butter cup.
Marc:It's fucking pure and simple.
Marc:I went through a Cherry Garcia thing for a while, and then I do, I tend to, the peanut butter cup's very satisfying, because you get those big peanut butter cups and the peanut butter ice cream.
Marc:Love that.
Marc:It's good.
Guest:He also well wishes that Greg Fitzsimmons, that people will one day listen to the archives of WTF, which I think I'm sure is true, will happen.
Guest:And that Barry Katz will come to you and ask you if you're interested in management.
Marc:I'm trying to figure out a way how to get one of those fuckers on the show.
Guest:Bearcats?
Marc:Barry or Dave.
Marc:But, you know, they're so cagey, you know, just by nature.
Guest:Dave would never come on the show.
Guest:I've talked to him about the show.
Guest:Every time I mention the show.
Marc:You know, Dave said it when I played the first show to him.
Guest:He shrinks.
Guest:He shrinks.
Guest:He's like, he doesn't want to be mentioned on it.
Guest:He doesn't want to hear about it.
Marc:The first time I brought the original WTFs into my manager, and we put it on, I said, just go to the website and you play it.
Marc:Within three minutes, he goes, I don't get it.
Marc:Where's the WTF?
Marc:I don't get it.
Marc:That's what Dave Becky said?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't get it.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:And I'm like, just wait.
Marc:It's an interview show.
Marc:But, you know, whatever.
Guest:Michael Showalter asks, if you could interview anyone dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask?
Marc:I would...
Marc:I'd like to interview Pryor.
Marc:I'd actually like to interview more black comics in general.
Marc:I just don't seem to be... I don't know how to... Well, the Patrice interview is great.
Marc:Yeah, but I'd like to interview Kevin Hart.
Marc:I'd love to interview Hughley.
Marc:I'd like to interview Earthquake.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't know if this is their bag.
Marc:Those guys are all alive, by the way.
Marc:I know, no.
Marc:I was just having a bit of white guilt.
Marc:I'd like to interview Pryor.
Marc:I think Kevin Hart would come in.
Marc:No, I think he would too.
Marc:I just got to figure out how to get hold of him.
Marc:I'd like to interview Pryor because he had such a profound impact on me as a pre-comic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'd really like to just talk about this sort of weird meeting of comedy and pain in a general way.
Guest:Would Pryor like you, do you think?
Yeah.
Guest:I remember hearing stories about Pryor from, like, Lucian.
Guest:He said that he would come into the comic strip, you know, far past his, you know, when he's very, very famous.
Guest:And he would kind of sit in the back of the room, sunglasses on, leather jacket on, his very quiet presence.
Guest:And, yeah, he seemed very kind of elusive and, I guess, aloof.
Marc:Well, I think that's a lot of what you're seeing up there is this sort of like, you know, shattering of, you know, like I think he was a lot of different selves.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I think that even when you read his autobiography, you know, it's written in almost like a childlike prose.
Guest:I love that book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a very interesting book.
Guest:People should dig that up.
Guest:If any comedy nerds listening to this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Prior convictions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's out of print.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You have to find it on eBay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Man, that's one of the best reads you can have in comedy.
Marc:Because did you get that sense that it almost felt like a 10 year old in some places?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there was sort of a sort of like a child likeness to him at the core of all this that I'd like to speak to.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and his story is so interesting.
Marc:And, you know, and I'd also like to, you know, you know, interview Lenny Bruce in a way that'd be like, you know, come on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How much of this was a gimmick for you?
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What do you think was a gimmick?
Marc:Well, I think that once he knew he was on to something, you know, I don't think extreme consciousness was a gimmick and I don't think that his reality was a gimmick.
Marc:But I think there was part of him that knew he was getting over on something that, you know, that once he became, you know, once he became what everyone thought he was, I would like to know what that pressure sort of drove him to do.
Marc:I'd also like to know.
Marc:You mean in terms of like drug use and- Well, no, just sort of like, you know, he had to feed the myth of Lenny Bruce.
Marc:He was in that weird position to where he was a cultural icon at a shift of the cultural paradigm and sort of redefining what free speech was and what comedy was.
Marc:And that once he became- Right.
Marc:Once that became expected of him, you know- How much was he fulfilling the character of Lenny Bruce?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And what were the burdens of that?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:It's interesting, though, like, I mean, this is a question we were hitting on earlier, but I think it's an important question, which is, what are you holding back?
Guest:Everybody has a secret, even if they're an autobiographical comedian.
Guest:What's the thing that you're not saying?
Guest:I mean, in what way are you fulfilling Marc Maron when you're on stage and holding back a certain aspect of Marc Maron?
Guest:That sounds completely ridiculous because I said Marc Maron three times in a sentence.
Marc:I'm holding back that I'm being serious.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That's what my mom always says.
Guest:My mom always says to me, she goes, you comedians are so serious.
Guest:I'm the only comedian she knows.
Guest:That I'm like, you know, this is, I'm being, this is, I'm being serious.
Guest:Why are you laughing?
Guest:Which brings me to Conan's question.
Guest:And maybe we'll end on this, which is a great question is who the fuck do you think you are?
Marc:I'm sorry, man.
Marc:I'm sorry that somehow or another I found some small bit of success off of the grid here.
Marc:You know, it's an interesting question coming from him, because I can see him saying that.
Guest:He set it up by saying, you know, I've known Mark for many years, and I love Mark, and my question is, who the fuck do you think you are?
Marc:Yeah, I don't want to be trite and say, you know, finally, who the fuck I think I am is exactly who I am.
Marc:Finally.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:And it took a long time for me to be that.
Marc:I think that if you would have asked me that at another point in my life, it would be like, oh, God, I know.
Marc:I wish I could just get under this, get rid of this, whatever facade this is, this angry guy or this pompous guy or this political guy.
Marc:Because I thought all of those were just shields.
Marc:And I think that right now I'm about as shieldless as I can be.
Marc:So whoever the fuck I am, I feel like it's as close to me as I've ever been.
Marc:And I'm relieved that I can accept that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Was there that sense of competition, though, that you needed to do something more intelligent?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:No, I didn't have that.
Guest:Clearly, you're working through some personal issues through me.
Guest:Did you have that?
Guest:Why are you taking the other side of everything I say?
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm just saying that... You are.
Guest:I'm almost... Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything about what you're asking me about?
Guest:I'm just telling...
Marc:You're done?
Marc:We were having a good conversation.
Guest:Oh, come on, Gallagher.
Guest:Comics at the Comedy Store who don't like me, I really want you to know this.
Guest:Seriously, I have a couple of friends who want to come and beat the shit out of you.
Guest:For real.
Guest:Like, fuck you up.
Guest:And I tell them not to.
Guest:Because, for whatever reason, let me not interpret my own behavior.
Guest:You know, I may be a dick on stage, but that's not why I'm so... Like, I want those people to know that, you know, despite of what you think...
Guest:I have stopped bad shit from happening.
Guest:There is a line, so to speak, that I won't cross.
Marc:The only thing negative I ever said about you, ever, when anyone brings you up, is that I say, that guy doesn't really bother me.
Marc:I don't know why everyone's angry at him.
Marc:He doesn't really bother me.
Marc:He's an empty vessel full of fuel.
Guest:And people would come to me and say, hey, do you ever bump into Mark?
Guest:And I go, that guy is like an ominous demon.
Guest:And I would say dark things about you.
Guest:Kids are supposed to cry when they're born, but she seemed angry to me and upset.
Guest:Like I expected just, oh, you know, when a kid's crying in the delivery room, everybody's smiling.
Guest:Oh, look at her cry.
Guest:But I was really upset for her.
Guest:And they put her on this little table and they're putting stuff around her.
Guest:Sorry, unexpectedly emotional.
Guest:Water's good.
Guest:It washes away your love for your children so you can talk without a shaking voice.
Guest:Did it take a lot out of you?
Guest:It did, and I'm really happy with it, and I'm happy with how it was reviewed, but I don't think it was like a set.
Guest:I'm not for everyone, as it turns out, and I've always seemed to know that.
Guest:I find that about me as well.
Guest:It was an eclectic mix, you know, a loud, you know, a little like...
Guest:weird comedy like Freaky Ralph who eventually set himself on fire.
Guest:To close?
Guest:No.
Guest:To end his life.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:To close.
Guest:Yeah, that's the ultimate closing.
Guest:But seriously, I'll be here until five minutes from now.
Guest:God, man, you're killing yourself.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:Yeah, to close.
Guest:Only a comic record.
Guest:To close.
Guest:How did you see the first and second show?
Guest:It's not an opener.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:That's the terror of joy.
Guest:If I enjoy this as completely as I want to, it's going to hurt.
Guest:hurt when it goes wrong yeah and the and the mistake is it hurts already yeah like keeping shut down is what really hurts right and so it doesn't actually make sense and you have to think about it all the time to know that's what's happening I'm not actually enjoying this yeah and if you're thinking about it it stops it from happening yeah and then you're not present yeah because you're waiting for a punch that's how I feel like I feel like I have my dukes up all day long looking for someone who's gonna punch me and here's the thing no one ever punches me yeah
Guest:This has been the 200th episode of Mark Maron's What the Fuck podcast.
Guest:I'm Mike Verbiglia, and that's Mark Maron, and we're signing off.
Guest:Thanks, Mike.
Guest:Thank you.