Episode 184 - Jill Soloway

Episode 184 • Released June 15, 2011 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:08Guest:Really?

00:00:08Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:09Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:10Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:12Guest:Pow!

00:00:12Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:14Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?

00:00:16Guest:What's wrong with me?

00:00:17Guest:It's time for WTF?

00:00:19Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:20Guest:With Mark Maron.

00:00:24Marc:Okay, let's do this.

00:00:25Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:26Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:27Marc:What the fuck, ears?

00:00:28Marc:What the fuck, nicks?

00:00:29Marc:What the fuck, nots?

00:00:30Marc:What the fuck, nooks?

00:00:31Marc:I'm coming up there.

00:00:32Marc:Edmonton.

00:00:34Marc:Next week.

00:00:34Marc:What are those dates?

00:00:36Marc:Let's check it out.

00:00:37Marc:That is June 23rd, 24th, 25th.

00:00:40Marc:I am Marc Maron.

00:00:41Marc:This is WTF.

00:00:42Marc:I will be at the comic strip in Edmonton at the mall.

00:00:46Marc:The massive mall.

00:00:48Marc:The massive, colossal, bigger-than-fuck mall where I need you guys to come out.

00:00:52Marc:Well, I think needs a strong word, but I'd like you to come out.

00:00:55Marc:I know it might not be your style, but it's not mine either.

00:00:58Marc:Please come out.

00:00:58Marc:I don't want to be alone at a mall with a roller coaster and an aquarium in it.

00:01:03Marc:Who would want that?

00:01:04Marc:I'd like you to be there with me.

00:01:06Marc:God damn it.

00:01:07Marc:How are you?

00:01:08Marc:I'm obsessed.

00:01:09Marc:I'm re-obsessed.

00:01:11Marc:With Shecky Green, I need to go to Palm Springs to talk to Shecky Green.

00:01:16Marc:I've been in touch with Shecky Green's person or people.

00:01:19Marc:I imagine it's one person.

00:01:21Marc:I'm trying to decide whether or not it's just him that I'm emailing through a website.

00:01:25Marc:I read an article on Shecky Green on the WFMU website.

00:01:29Marc:blog and it was fucking genius and now i just want to talk to him i think i need to i need to understand the shecky green phenomenon i mean this guy was the guy that my grandmother said was the funniest guy ever he was a comics comic he was a guy that was funnier than anybody else but you had to see him live and if you saw him in a small place that was his fucking that was his fucking kingdom never could translate to tv never made the big crossover not a household name in a way that people know him

00:01:59Marc:But the myth of Shecky Green is that he was the best there ever was.

00:02:03Marc:And he's out there, man.

00:02:04Marc:He's out there in palm strings.

00:02:06Marc:I need to make a pilgrimage.

00:02:08Marc:I need to go see the Shecky Buddha and and and sort of sit at the feet and take down the.

00:02:16Marc:The lessons.

00:02:18Marc:I really want to make that happen.

00:02:20Marc:I'm working on that.

00:02:21Marc:I know a lot of you are like, when?

00:02:23Marc:When, Mark?

00:02:24Marc:When are you going to interview Shecky Green?

00:02:26Marc:You mentioned it months ago.

00:02:28Marc:I'm back on it.

00:02:29Marc:I'm trying to make it happen.

00:02:32Marc:What's going on?

00:02:33Marc:What isn't going on?

00:02:36Marc:I went to bed the other night, melancholy, then woke up nostalgic.

00:02:41Marc:There's a fine line between that, melancholy and nostalgic.

00:02:46Marc:Both of those can happen from the same song.

00:02:49Marc:sitting around listening to this new clock radio I got with the remote on shuffle Beatles songs.

00:02:57Marc:Oh, I remember when I was on a school bus.

00:03:00Marc:I was on a school bus.

00:03:02Marc:Yeah.

00:03:03Marc:Holy shit.

00:03:04Marc:I got passed down this giant Iowa stereo system, a cassette player that had speakers that attached to it.

00:03:12Marc:And I spent all this time recording Beatles songs, holding a shitty little microphone up to a record player, making tapes of Beatles songs that I could bring onto the school bus to impress the bus driver that I had a crush on.

00:03:27Marc:That's where I was traveling.

00:03:28Marc:That's how far back I went waking up the other day.

00:03:32Marc:The night before I was like, oh my God, my life is just flying away before me.

00:03:38Marc:I'm in the second half.

00:03:41Marc:And then the following morning, I'm like, oh, that was so nice.

00:03:45Marc:I was just sitting there in the front seat watching Vanjie, the Latino bus driver, sing along with I've Just Seen a Face because I brought it on the bus.

00:03:58Marc:Yeah, years later, I ran into her, literally ran into her in a car.

00:04:03Marc:She was in a car.

00:04:05Marc:I can't remember when it was.

00:04:07Marc:I was visiting New Mexico.

00:04:08Marc:I was well into my 30s.

00:04:10Marc:And they'd put a light where I didn't see a light, and I ran into somebody.

00:04:15Marc:And I got out of the car, and it was her.

00:04:17Marc:And I didn't really make the connection until I ran into her at the courthouse.

00:04:23Marc:And there she was with her ticket.

00:04:26Marc:I don't remember.

00:04:27Marc:But then when I realized it was her, I said, do you remember me?

00:04:30Marc:I used to ride up front in your bus.

00:04:32Marc:And I used to, I brought the tape recorder on, I played Beatles songs, and we sang the Beatles songs.

00:04:38Marc:When I was in seventh grade, do you remember me?

00:04:41Marc:And it was funny because she had been complaining about her neck, of course, because I rear-ended her.

00:04:46Marc:And when she put it together that I was that kid, she didn't sue me.

00:04:52Marc:So I guess that was a romance that paid off in the end.

00:04:55Marc:I guess there is something about young love.

00:04:58Marc:I guess sometimes it does last forever.

00:05:01Marc:I didn't end up being sued by my childhood bus driver because of the Beatles' rubber sole.

00:05:09Marc:That's something.

00:05:11Marc:You know I'm up to my neck in this chick, right?

00:05:14Marc:In a good way.

00:05:17Marc:Had an argument tonight.

00:05:18Marc:But you know what?

00:05:19Marc:It didn't end up with screaming and yelling and crying and worrying about the neighbors and running out of the house.

00:05:26Marc:It sort of resolved itself.

00:05:29Marc:It just resolved itself.

00:05:31Marc:It came about because we got to talking and I brought up my ex-wife.

00:05:35Marc:I can't help that I have a history.

00:05:37Marc:I can't help that I've been through the ringer.

00:05:40Marc:I can't help that I and my cock have been through the ringer.

00:05:44Marc:I can't apologize for my life.

00:05:48Marc:So she said, I'm really sick of you talking about your ex-wife.

00:05:52Marc:And I said, I have not been talking about her that much.

00:05:54Marc:And I think that my behavior has shown that I am moving through that.

00:06:00Marc:It's interesting because Jill Soloway is on the podcast today, who I thought had aligned herself with my ex-wife to make my life miserable.

00:06:10Marc:Maybe we'll get to resolve some of that.

00:06:12Marc:But I really am.

00:06:15Marc:I'm through the tunnel, man.

00:06:16Marc:There's light.

00:06:17Marc:I love this girl.

00:06:18Marc:And out of nowhere, you really got to stop talking about your ex-wife.

00:06:21Marc:And I'm like, Jesus Christ, what do I got to do?

00:06:25Marc:And that could have been it.

00:06:26Marc:You know, I kind of half-heartedly said, well, then just go home.

00:06:29Marc:But she did not.

00:06:31Marc:And we talked about it.

00:06:34Marc:And we talked about our own insecurities.

00:06:36Marc:See, it's intimacy.

00:06:37Marc:Intimacy is happening.

00:06:38Marc:And I don't, I can handle it.

00:06:42Marc:It's interesting how intimacy unfolds in a relationship.

00:06:45Marc:I think we had a major breakthrough the other night.

00:06:49Marc:And it had to do with major gastrointestinal problems.

00:06:56Marc:There's really no, it's not even a test of a relationship.

00:06:59Marc:It's not like the stakes are high.

00:07:02Marc:But I don't know if you've ever been in a relationship where you're basically spending every night with the person.

00:07:09Marc:And, you know, how you handle gas is one thing or another.

00:07:12Marc:You know, guys are usually like, you know, after a certain point, you're like, I got to let it go.

00:07:16Marc:It's got to happen.

00:07:18Marc:I apologize.

00:07:19Marc:That was a bad one.

00:07:22Marc:Yeah, no, that was really bad.

00:07:23Marc:That one frightened me.

00:07:24Marc:And you know me.

00:07:25Marc:I'm not a guy that talks about this.

00:07:26Marc:But somehow or another, we both ate.

00:07:28Marc:We must have eaten the same thing.

00:07:30Marc:But we were both plagued with gas.

00:07:33Marc:And there was just no stopping it.

00:07:36Marc:And at that point, you just got to, you know,

00:07:39Marc:It's like being there when somebody passes away.

00:07:42Marc:You just hold them and you get through it.

00:07:46Marc:So that's what happened.

00:07:48Marc:We just were enveloped in a cloud of our own smells.

00:07:53Marc:And we had some laughs and I realized, man, where do you go from here?

00:07:58Marc:Clearly, you know, pooping in front of each other is next.

00:08:01Marc:But I'd like to keep that to myself.

00:08:03Marc:I mean, unless I have to.

00:08:04Marc:There are those situations where you're like, well, you know, I know you're in the shower, but I got to go.

00:08:11Marc:But, like, that's next.

00:08:12Marc:And then I don't see any other.

00:08:14Marc:Then after that, it's babies, right?

00:08:17Marc:Don't you go from, you know, farting in front of each other to the occasional poop?

00:08:22Marc:And then, like, I guess it's time to have kids because if we can deal with that, let's bring someone else's poop into this.

00:08:29Marc:I think that's next.

00:08:31Marc:That's the natural progression, right?

00:08:33Marc:I love you.

00:08:34Marc:That's what I smell like on the inside.

00:08:37Marc:Oh, look, this is coming out of me.

00:08:39Marc:Oh, that's coming out of you.

00:08:40Marc:And it's crying.

00:08:42Marc:Is that the process?

00:08:47Marc:Should I write the book of love?

00:08:48Marc:I don't mean to be.

00:08:51Marc:I'm sorry if this is too personal.

00:08:54Marc:I really am.

00:08:55Marc:I hope it wasn't.

00:08:58Marc:On that note.

00:09:01Marc:I don't know if you know who Jill Soloway is, but she started a very popular, somewhat of an alternative comedy showcase, but not really because it's something different.

00:09:11Marc:It's called Sit and Spin.

00:09:13Marc:And it was really, I think, originally designed to be a showcase for writers to read stuff that they've worked on.

00:09:20Marc:She was also a writer on Six Feet Under.

00:09:22Marc:And she's also...

00:09:25Marc:I know this is going to surprise you, but a bit of a Jew, and I imagine we'll get into that.

00:09:32Marc:Yeah, I dated her for a while, so it got weird.

00:09:38Guest:Yeah.

00:09:39Marc:Yeah, but we don't need to talk about that.

00:09:40Marc:Jill Soloway is in my garage.

00:09:43Marc:The multi-talented, multi-faceted, tough Jill Soloway.

00:09:49Marc:Is that okay?

00:09:50Marc:Sure.

00:09:50Marc:I mean, is that all right?

00:09:52Marc:You know, I was a little nervous.

00:09:54Guest:I was a little nervous.

00:09:55Marc:Why were you nervous?

00:09:57Guest:Because sometimes you can be kind of mean to people, and I was afraid you might be mean to me.

00:10:02Marc:I could probably find reason, because I feel that the times in our lives that we have met and hung out, I have never felt incredibly connected to you in any way.

00:10:17Marc:I even felt like you might not like me and be mad at me for some reason.

00:10:21Guest:I feel more connected to you right now than I think I've ever felt before in my life.

00:10:24Marc:Thank God.

00:10:25Marc:I mean, this is the place to do it.

00:10:28Guest:This is what I had to come to, headphones and a table.

00:10:31Marc:So you're not working today?

00:10:35Guest:I did some writing this morning at the Swark Cafe before I came over.

00:10:38Marc:But isn't this new show, you're working on a new show for HBO?

00:10:41Marc:Is that talkaboutable yet?

00:10:42Guest:What show is that?

00:10:43Guest:It's probably Fallen Apart by now.

00:10:45Marc:About the groupie show?

00:10:47Guest:Yeah, Falling Apart.

00:10:49Marc:Was it Zooey Deschanel?

00:10:50Guest:It was.

00:10:51Marc:How did that fall apart?

00:10:52Marc:I just heard about it.

00:10:53Guest:Yes.

00:10:55Guest:HBO was taking too long with their notes.

00:10:59Guest:They like to really spend a bunch of time.

00:11:00Marc:Oh yeah, a year.

00:11:01Marc:It could be a year.

00:11:02Guest:Or two, yeah.

00:11:03Guest:And she took a job on a network sitcom.

00:11:06Marc:That's too bad.

00:11:07Guest:Yeah, and what was that idea was it you're wrangling know the idea is still alive But maybe with another actress it's based on Pamela Debar's book.

00:11:13Guest:I'm with a band.

00:11:14Marc:Is it going to be dated in that era?

00:11:16Marc:Yes 1968 so that's the okay, and that was the famous groupie Brooke.

00:11:23Marc:Yeah, the proud groupie book yeah, and then there were you she wasn't the one that made plaster casts of that was a friend of

00:11:30Marc:Plastercaster.

00:11:30Marc:What was her name?

00:11:31Marc:First name?

00:11:32Guest:Cynthia.

00:11:32Marc:Cynthia Plastercaster that made Plastercasts of famous cocks.

00:11:35Guest:Yes, she did.

00:11:36Marc:She made a Jimi Hendrix cock.

00:11:38Marc:All of them.

00:11:38Marc:Yeah.

00:11:39Marc:Really?

00:11:39Marc:Some other ones?

00:11:40Guest:I don't know.

00:11:40Guest:I mean, this is sort of more like when Pamela was like 16, 17.

00:11:44Guest:Okay.

00:11:46Marc:Was she a runaway?

00:11:47Guest:She stayed out a lot, sort of focusing it on the time where she was a nanny for the Zappas.

00:11:52Marc:Oh, Moon Zappa.

00:11:55Marc:Are you guys friends?

00:11:56Guest:I do know her, yeah.

00:11:57Guest:She's awesome.

00:11:57Marc:She is awesome.

00:11:58Marc:I've seen her in a long time.

00:11:59Guest:I saw her not long ago.

00:12:01Marc:Now let's talk about how I first met you and your connection to the world of comedy because I think I first met you and you played guitar.

00:12:08Marc:Is that possible?

00:12:09Guest:That's my sister, Faith.

00:12:10Marc:So it wasn't her.

00:12:11Guest:She's the guitar playing lesbian sister.

00:12:14Marc:Oh, but you ran the open mic thing at the something grounds?

00:12:20Guest:a million years ago didn't you run a show like one of the like sort of the original alt comedy shows yeah did you go out with Dave Cross for a moment okay all right so I got something right there was a moment there I'm talking like what is that 20 years ago 20 years ago we're talking now yeah well I start there I start there yeah 92 my sister and I came out to Los Angeles with the real life Brady Munch and there was I think there was kind of the alternative comedy scene happening

00:12:45Marc:Well, it sort of was, that was a little pre-alternative, right, but it was something.

00:12:49Marc:Yeah, so I think I remember.

00:12:50Marc:So you wrote The Real Life Brady Bunch.

00:12:51Guest:My sister and I created, it was actual episodes, so there was no writing, we just transcribed.

00:12:56Marc:Right, but it was popular.

00:12:57Guest:It was really crazy popular.

00:12:59Marc:In Chicago.

00:12:59Guest:Yeah.

00:13:00Marc:And then it moved to New York.

00:13:01Marc:Yeah.

00:13:02Marc:And what's her name?

00:13:03Marc:Everybody.

00:13:04Marc:Hutzel became like.

00:13:05Guest:Hutzel, yeah, Jane Lynch was.

00:13:07Marc:She was in it too?

00:13:08Marc:She was Carol.

00:13:09Marc:Oh my God.

00:13:10Guest:Andy Richter was the dad.

00:13:11Marc:In the original?

00:13:12Guest:Yep.

00:13:13Marc:Wow.

00:13:14Guest:At times we had Steve Carell playing Greg.

00:13:16Marc:I had no idea.

00:13:17Guest:There were a whole bunch of those people.

00:13:19Marc:So you started in that Second City world-ish?

00:13:21Marc:Annoyance.

00:13:22Guest:It was sort of anti-Second City at the time, I think.

00:13:25Marc:And what was that, the rebellious sort of upstart?

00:13:28Guest:Yeah, it was people doing kind of crazy plays.

00:13:30Guest:My sister wrote a play called Co-Ed Prison Sluts.

00:13:32Guest:She wrote the music for that.

00:13:33Guest:It was people kind of creating through improvisational, through improvisation kind of.

00:13:38Marc:But not locked into that Second City method.

00:13:40Guest:No sketches.

00:13:41Marc:Yeah, first you have to go on the road in a van and do the road.

00:13:45Marc:I talked to somebody.

00:13:46Marc:Who was that I talked to that was in that road company?

00:13:48Marc:Was it Nick Kroll or one of the other guys that did the, oh my God, the traveling Second City road shows?

00:13:53Marc:Horrendous.

00:13:54Guest:Yeah, my sister did that.

00:13:55Marc:Oh my God.

00:13:56Marc:Did she hate it?

00:13:57Guest:Atlantic City, you end up in for a while.

00:13:58Guest:Yeah, it's horrible.

00:13:59Marc:Corporate gigs.

00:14:01Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:14:01Marc:Awful.

00:14:02Marc:Yeah.

00:14:02Marc:And you probably have to do research before the show.

00:14:04Marc:Yes, right.

00:14:05Marc:Now, who's the boss?

00:14:06Guest:Yeah.

00:14:07Marc:And who does everybody hate?

00:14:09Marc:That kind of shit.

00:14:09Guest:Right, exactly.

00:14:10Guest:I didn't do it.

00:14:11Guest:I was never an actor.

00:14:11Guest:I was always a producer, director, writer.

00:14:14Marc:You've done pretty well for yourself.

00:14:16Oh.

00:14:16Guest:Okay, I guess.

00:14:17Guest:I don't know.

00:14:18Marc:But can I hold you responsible for the trend of, I think that the real life Brady Bunch is directly responsible for unleashing TV sitcom movies.

00:14:28Guest:Yeah, that happened.

00:14:29Guest:Yeah, that for sure.

00:14:29Guest:Because after the real life Brady Bunch happened, Paramount called us in and said, we want to make a movie by the Brady Bunch.

00:14:34Guest:Yeah.

00:14:34Guest:Do you and Faith want to direct it?

00:14:36Guest:We said, sure.

00:14:37Guest:We thought that meetings were real and when people said good things, they meant them and all that stuff that you think 20 years ago.

00:14:42Guest:And then, you know, they never called.

00:14:44Guest:They still haven't called.

00:14:45Guest:No, they still haven't called.

00:14:46Marc:But they made the movie, though.

00:14:47Guest:They made the movie.

00:14:48Marc:Without you.

00:14:48Guest:Apparently, they had, like, Melanie Hutzel come in and read the entire script on camera so they could show it to the actress who ended up playing Jan.

00:14:55Guest:I don't know if that's true or not.

00:14:56Marc:Do you stay in touch with those people?

00:14:57Marc:I do.

00:14:58Marc:All of them.

00:14:59Marc:Really?

00:14:59Guest:Many of them.

00:15:00Guest:Melanie Hutzel, Becky Thayer, for sure.

00:15:02Guest:Susan Messing I still talk to, yeah.

00:15:03Marc:Becky Thayer, Sarah Thayer's sister, Andy Richter's wife, Sarah.

00:15:07Guest:All of them, yeah.

00:15:07Marc:And she, I don't know what these, there's a whole Chicago crew.

00:15:10Marc:Were you part of the Jody Lennon crew too?

00:15:12Guest:I know Jody.

00:15:13Guest:No, she sort of, there was a sort of split at the annoyance when the people who went off to do the Brady Bunch went to New York and Jody stayed with Mick.

00:15:20Guest:There was a, sounds like it's crazy now, but at the time it mattered a lot.

00:15:25Guest:Half the people went with me and my sister and half the people stayed with Mick and there was a throw down.

00:15:29Guest:Was there drama?

00:15:30Guest:There was a big fight in a liquor store.

00:15:32Marc:Really?

00:15:32Marc:Yeah.

00:15:32Marc:An improvisational fight?

00:15:35Marc:A fight between improv troops?

00:15:36Guest:I remember getting in a fight with Jody Lennon at a liquor store.

00:15:39Marc:Really?

00:15:40Marc:Yeah.

00:15:40Marc:About the schism between the improv group?

00:15:43Guest:Yeah.

00:15:44Marc:Was it hilarious?

00:15:46Guest:At the time, it was painful, I remember.

00:15:48Guest:I remember it was scary and sad.

00:15:52Guest:Yeah, a line was drawn.

00:15:53Marc:Really?

00:15:54Guest:Yeah, those who were leaving and those who weren't.

00:15:56Marc:and the people that left she's still in new york i mean i had that with uh with david cross and cross comedy i went my way and they went there yeah so yeah you were you guys in a thing together you and david cross well i sort of lived with him and and we knew each other doing stand-up and then he created this uh sketch show at catch rising star in boston and a lot of them moved out here and became sort of the backbone of mr show a few of them anyways

00:16:20Marc:It was sort of the seeds of that.

00:16:22Marc:I mean Ennis was there, but I guess that was really I can't remember if any of the other I saw him recently.

00:16:28Marc:Yeah, he's a he looks very gray.

00:16:30Guest:Yeah, he looks awesome He does a different person.

00:16:32Guest:He's a different person.

00:16:33Marc:He's lean.

00:16:34Guest:He's leaning gray

00:16:35Marc:Now, okay, so how did you, I was reading your wiki page and I had to, I have to stop myself.

00:16:46Marc:Do you read your wiki page?

00:16:47Guest:I'm afraid to.

00:16:48Marc:Where did I put it?

00:16:49Marc:I just had it.

00:16:50Marc:Oh, here.

00:16:51Guest:Is it a woman on it a lot?

00:16:52Marc:Well, it says feminist right away.

00:16:55Marc:Comedian, playwright, a feminist, an Emmy-nominated television writer.

00:16:59Marc:That's all right.

00:17:00Marc:Right.

00:17:01Marc:But then down here, what was the thing?

00:17:04Marc:Strong supporter of feminism and also co-founded the organization Object.

00:17:08Guest:Right.

00:17:09Marc:Is Object still up and going?

00:17:10Guest:Object is dead.

00:17:12Guest:Well, I'm a starter of things.

00:17:14Guest:I like to get a thing going and then sometimes it goes on and sometimes it doesn't.

00:17:18Marc:I know, I get dispatches from the Jew front from you occasionally.

00:17:21Guest:Right, I'm into Judaism now as opposed to feminism.

00:17:23Guest:I need to update my wiki page.

00:17:25Marc:Object, and it's all in caps.

00:17:28Guest:I know, I love that name.

00:17:29Marc:Did it stand for something?

00:17:30Marc:Did you have like, was it one of those something nim?

00:17:32Guest:What is it?

00:17:33Guest:No, it's not a something nim, but I just feel like it's such a great word because it's like, how do you say it?

00:17:37Guest:Do you say object or object?

00:17:39Guest:It's all right there in that question.

00:17:42Marc:I am an object who objects to being objectified.

00:17:45Guest:If it was like a not-for-profit organization, depending on how everybody felt that week, you either answer the phone, hello, object, or hello, object.

00:17:53Marc:Yeah.

00:17:54Guest:Or everybody would get their periods at the same time and answer the phone angrily that week.

00:17:57Marc:All in the same room, yeah, living with each other.

00:18:00Guest:Hello, object, the week that everybody's getting their period.

00:18:02Marc:Good.

00:18:03Marc:So what was the impetus of that?

00:18:08Guest:You know, I still have an impetus around all of that.

00:18:10Guest:I feel like there's no great forum for women to have fun, great, angry, funny discussions about all the crazy shit that goes on surrounding sex, like the same way that Bill Maher does politics.

00:18:23Guest:You know, there's no way where kind of young women get to hear other women argue and sort of stand on both sides regarding porn, mistresses, wives.

00:18:31Guest:It's like just the fucking view, and it's so boring.

00:18:34Marc:Where's that show?

00:18:35Guest:The View?

00:18:35Marc:No, your show that you're pitching to me right now.

00:18:37Guest:I've kind of tried to make it happen a couple times.

00:18:41Marc:And no?

00:18:42Guest:I don't think people really are interested in it.

00:18:44Marc:Do you like Chelsea?

00:18:46Guest:I do like Chelsea.

00:18:47Guest:You know what the thing is that is a little bit different from Chelsea's thing and what I'm into is that...

00:18:53Guest:I'm into something that has a little bit of kind of a little love in the middle, a little heart, a little niceness, a little kindness.

00:18:58Guest:Something that really kind of wants to be on both sides.

00:19:01Guest:It doesn't want to make enemies.

00:19:03Guest:It really wants to sort of circle around both sides of things.

00:19:05Guest:Because when I listen to somebody like Antonia and talking about sex work, I feel like there's these awesome arguments on both sides.

00:19:11Guest:Like, yes, she makes a great argument for why it's okay to be a sex worker.

00:19:15Guest:And there's a whole other great argument about why it's not okay.

00:19:17Guest:And it's not just a really right-wing regressive argument.

00:19:21Guest:There's sort of a modern...

00:19:22Marc:The question about whether or not it is empowering or not.

00:19:26Marc:Yeah.

00:19:26Guest:What a great conversation.

00:19:27Guest:I could have that conversation all night.

00:19:29Marc:Well, let's have some now.

00:19:30Marc:Okay.

00:19:30Marc:In terms of sexualized empowerment, taking back the sex and saying that either stripping or porn or sex work

00:19:43Marc:is somehow owning your femininity in a way that actually goes against the idea of objectification.

00:19:51Guest:Yeah.

00:19:52Guest:Well, I think that's the idea.

00:19:53Guest:That's definitely the idea.

00:19:55Guest:And that's an idea that grew out of a history where, you know, women's bodies belong to somebody else.

00:19:59Guest:And so it was a necessary part of feminism to be able to say, hey, you know, sex workers are people too.

00:20:05Guest:Yeah.

00:20:05Guest:And strippers are people too.

00:20:07Guest:Sure.

00:20:07Guest:And let's unionize and let's, and, you know, they have voices and they should write books and they're the, you know,

00:20:13Guest:And they're the most interesting and complex people really writing because they've been to this sort of dark side where most women haven't been.

00:20:22Guest:So they're great books, they're great writers, they're great people.

00:20:25Guest:All of my heroes are Michelle T and Susie Bright and Lisa Carver.

00:20:31Guest:All these women who sort of unabashedly say, I was a prostitute for a couple years.

00:20:34Guest:Those are really the coolest women there are.

00:20:36Marc:Well, at least Susie was funny.

00:20:37Guest:Yeah, there's like some really, those are really sort of the funnest women to sort of be fans of because they really are not afraid of the usual boundaries.

00:20:51Guest:But then I think you get past that and you start to go, what's really the best, healthiest life for a woman?

00:20:58Guest:Right.

00:20:58Guest:You know, like Diablo, for example, we talked about it a lot.

00:21:01Marc:Diablo Cody's your pal.

00:21:02Guest:Yes.

00:21:02Guest:And we, you know, I would say, don't you want to go back and save all of them?

00:21:06Guest:Don't you want to go back to all the strippers and say, like, you can be a screenwriter to come get off the stage and let's have a writing workshop.

00:21:13Guest:And she's like, no, they're all dumb.

00:21:15Guest:You know, they're not that smart.

00:21:17Guest:Only some of them are smart.

00:21:18Marc:Well, right.

00:21:18Marc:But isn't there also the issue of like, you know, who the fuck is anyone to tell me that what I'm doing is not the life I want to be living?

00:21:24Guest:Well, yeah, you know, I think that like politically you have to take the side that anybody who's a sex worker or a porn star or any of those people were on their side because tolerance is what we have to be behind.

00:21:35Guest:Yeah.

00:21:35Guest:But then it sort of shuts down the other conversation.

00:21:37Guest:It's the same thing with like legalizing pot.

00:21:39Guest:You know, it's like, yeah, you have to say it's OK to legalize pot.

00:21:42Guest:But then there's pot stores everywhere and it starts taking over and nobody's really allowed to talk.

00:21:48Marc:Against it if you're tolerant.

00:21:50Guest:Yeah, it's the same thing with abortion.

00:21:51Guest:You can't even really talk about having a desire to reduce the number of abortions that people have without making people go crazy thinking they're pro-life.

00:21:58Marc:Right, without the liberals getting upset.

00:22:00Marc:Well, I guess the problem there is that with tolerance comes a type of condescension.

00:22:06Marc:If you're not living that life and you're more in the center, more along the normal scale that if you're tolerant of, hey, OK, she's on crack and she sucks cock for money.

00:22:18Marc:You know, she's one of us.

00:22:19Marc:So, hey, we've got to we've got to be OK with it and maybe help her get off the crack.

00:22:23Marc:But if she wants to suck dick, that's her problem.

00:22:25Marc:That's her thing.

00:22:26Guest:Yeah.

00:22:26Guest:Well, I guess it's more about blaming a world where she would have to suck dick instead of.

00:22:30Marc:Mm-hmm right, so you got to displace that don't be condescending to her say why is the system like yeah?

00:22:37Guest:Well, then I think it's an interesting conversation for women to ask you know is that the best use of her mouth?

00:22:43Guest:ultimately Daily sure yeah, no she could be saying things it could be or just relaxing it she could be mouth breathing at home Which is probably safer really

00:22:55Marc:Yeah, or putting things in her mouth that maybe are healthy.

00:22:58Marc:Anything.

00:22:58Marc:Yeah, I agree with you.

00:23:00Marc:Well, what about, okay, let's talk about porn then, because I talk about porn, I talk about it on stage now, and I'm starting to really feel that it is having epidemic and malignant effects on human sexuality on this planet.

00:23:15Marc:And I know, and some people have asked my balls about this, men, but really, I mean, there's no way to look at compulsive porn intake as anything but...

00:23:24Marc:You know, some type of addiction and definitely brain bending.

00:23:27Guest:Yeah, no, I think it's probably not okay.

00:23:32Marc:That's very diplomatic, Jill.

00:23:35Guest:But I think I don't want to go on the record as saying that because that's so fucking right wing, you know.

00:23:39Guest:But my guess is, you know, you had Tracy McMillan on here and she's sort of the only example I can think of.

00:23:45Guest:of a woman who's a really sort of modern feminist who likes to talk about the soul.

00:23:50Guest:And when you talk about whether or not porn is okay for the soul, maybe it's not.

00:23:56Guest:Maybe.

00:23:57Guest:I don't know.

00:23:58Guest:It's dangerous to say anything bad about porn.

00:24:02Marc:Really?

00:24:03Guest:As a feminist.

00:24:04Marc:Has it come to that, Jill?

00:24:06Guest:Yeah, it is really.

00:24:07Guest:As a feminist, I have feminist friends who... So Andrea Dworkin is dead.

00:24:11Guest:Well, yeah, Andrea Dworkin is dead.

00:24:12Marc:I know she's dead, but everything she believed in is dead as well.

00:24:16Guest:She's not the modern feminist.

00:24:17Marc:No, she certainly isn't.

00:24:18Guest:The modern feminist is a very sex positive, you know, porn positive.

00:24:23Guest:You know, Nina Hartley spoke at a Jewish event that I organized the other night.

00:24:26Marc:That must have went over wonderfully.

00:24:27Marc:It really did.

00:24:28Marc:It did?

00:24:28Marc:It was awesome.

00:24:29Marc:Were there any old Jewish women there?

00:24:31Marc:No.

00:24:31Guest:Oh, okay.

00:24:32Guest:She was the oldest.

00:24:34Guest:She's Jew?

00:24:35Guest:She's a Jewish woman.

00:24:35Guest:Her real name is Mitzi Levine.

00:24:37Marc:Mitzi Levine is Nina Hartley?

00:24:38Marc:Yeah.

00:24:39Marc:Who knew?

00:24:39Guest:She's adorable.

00:24:40Guest:She's awesome.

00:24:41Guest:She talked about sacred sensuality and Shabbos.

00:24:45Marc:Really?

00:24:46Marc:Yeah.

00:24:47Marc:I saw Annie Sprinkle, who's also a Jew.

00:24:49Guest:She's awesome.

00:24:50Marc:She is awesome.

00:24:50Guest:Right.

00:24:51Guest:Like, how can I be against these women?

00:24:52Marc:But that's different.

00:24:53Marc:They have elevated the dialogue to something other than being an active porn performer and

00:25:02Marc:And not having any sort of distance from it intellectually.

00:25:07Guest:Yeah.

00:25:07Guest:They have intellectual distance.

00:25:09Marc:Yeah.

00:25:09Guest:They're artists, I guess.

00:25:10Marc:Yeah.

00:25:10Marc:Well, I mean, when I saw Annie Sprinkle, I just talked about it the other day, and I won't forget it.

00:25:14Marc:I'd never seen her before, but I was fascinated with her.

00:25:18Guest:Was it New York?

00:25:18Marc:Yeah.

00:25:18Marc:No, it was at the theater in San Francisco that's right by that Greens restaurant.

00:25:25Marc:Is it the Cowell Theater?

00:25:26Marc:There's a little complex there.

00:25:27Marc:And she was doing sort of this greatest hits type of show, pieces from her other shows, and I'd never seen her before.

00:25:33Marc:But I was very fascinated with Suzy Bright, with Sprinkle, with Kathy Acker.

00:25:39Marc:I mean, I read that stuff.

00:25:40Marc:I had the research book, Angry Women.

00:25:42Marc:Yes.

00:25:42Marc:I was sort of obsessed with it for a while.

00:25:45Marc:I don't know if I was trying to put a game plan together for myself to somehow.

00:25:49Marc:For boning feminists?

00:25:50Marc:Yeah, for undermining whatever it is that they stand for.

00:25:52Guest:Like, they're on to us.

00:25:54Marc:I need to.

00:25:54Marc:I got to trick them.

00:25:55Marc:Yeah.

00:25:57Marc:Or genuinely.

00:25:58Marc:No, but I find that I am nervous and very attracted to emotionally and intellectually to women that sort of row their own boat.

00:26:06Marc:Like, I don't, you know, I'm just fascinated by it.

00:26:09Marc:that sounded condescending but anyway so how do you row yeah well i mean how'd you get in that boat on your own exactly no it almost sounded like i'm fascinated with women who have you know an idea of themselves these women with brains yeah yeah they make me nervous and i have to reckon with them they just won't listen to me i can't train them uh

00:26:30Marc:No, but Annie Sprinkle did the thing that she's famous for, the speculum thing where you can come up and you look at her cervix, which I didn't do.

00:26:40Marc:But her closer was some sort of tantric ritual where she's got about 200, 300 people in this room.

00:26:47Marc:And we've all been provided with these makeshift sort of rattles.

00:26:50Marc:There were two plastic cups taped together with something inside like beans or rice.

00:26:54Marc:So they rattled and she's playing this really sort of weird building new age music.

00:26:58Marc:And she's on stage in like a low disposition, you know, masturbating furiously with this arm sized dildo.

00:27:05Marc:And she's miked, you know, right to her mouth.

00:27:08Marc:So you hear her breathing and she's building up to this climax.

00:27:11Marc:And we were told to shake these rattles, you know, all through this thing.

00:27:15Marc:And then she comes and...

00:27:17Marc:And then like the music fades out and it gets lower and she just sits there as if she was a spiritual being open and ready to.

00:27:24Marc:And that's the close of the show.

00:27:25Marc:And she didn't get off stage and people, you know, there was a procession past her to sort of like, thank you.

00:27:31Marc:Thank you.

00:27:32Marc:Like as she sat there post orgasm and really was by far the best closer I'd ever seen.

00:27:38Marc:And I generally don't like music closers.

00:27:39Guest:Yeah.

00:27:42Guest:I remember I saw that too.

00:27:43Guest:It had a huge influence on me.

00:27:45Marc:You saw it?

00:27:45Guest:Yeah, I remember that moment.

00:27:47Guest:I saw it in New York.

00:27:48Guest:I remember people walking past her and taking pictures of her on the way out.

00:27:53Guest:And yeah, it was like the sort of sacred whore is what she considered herself.

00:27:57Guest:A sacred whore.

00:27:58Marc:People were thanking her.

00:27:59Marc:I really felt like it was after the church sermon.

00:28:03Guest:I'll never forget it either.

00:28:04Guest:Did you get a picture taken with her tits on your head?

00:28:06Marc:No.

00:28:07Marc:I don't do tits on the head pictures.

00:28:09Marc:I barely do pictures of anything.

00:28:11Marc:But I will take a picture with you if that's okay.

00:28:14Marc:I now have an assistant person who has a camera.

00:28:17Guest:Will she put your tits on my head?

00:28:19Marc:You put your tits on my head.

00:28:20Marc:I'll put my tits on your head.

00:28:21Guest:I have no problem with that.

00:28:23Guest:That would work better.

00:28:25Marc:So you started writing and producing.

00:28:27Marc:You weren't a performer really.

00:28:28Guest:No.

00:28:29Guest:I started performing at some point, but I didn't start off as an actor.

00:28:33Marc:And Sit and Spin was fairly, this was a series that you created, right?

00:28:36Guest:Yes, that was like Object, but it worked.

00:28:39Marc:Was it for women initially?

00:28:41Guest:It was actually, the very first one was called Box.

00:28:44Marc:Box?

00:28:45Guest:Yes, Box.

00:28:46Marc:What do you prefer for the slang?

00:28:49Guest:I don't have one.

00:28:50Guest:I don't have a good one.

00:28:52Guest:I have a two-year-old who's asking me to name it.

00:28:54Marc:How many kids do you have now, two?

00:28:56Guest:I have a 14-year-old and a two-year-old.

00:28:57Marc:I met the 14-year-old.

00:28:58Guest:Did you?

00:28:59Marc:Do you have a husband?

00:29:00Guest:I do.

00:29:00Marc:When did that happen?

00:29:01Guest:A couple years ago.

00:29:02Marc:How's that going?

00:29:03Guest:Great.

00:29:04Marc:Really?

00:29:04Guest:Yeah.

00:29:05Guest:No, it really is.

00:29:06Guest:Have you met him?

00:29:07Guest:I feel like you were at my house.

00:29:08Marc:I was at my house with my ex-wife.

00:29:11Guest:You were at my house.

00:29:12Marc:I was at your house at some dinner event.

00:29:13Marc:I have no recollection of that.

00:29:15Marc:I don't know when it was.

00:29:16Guest:Okay.

00:29:17Marc:I remember being there and liking your table.

00:29:19Marc:I remember there were olives.

00:29:20Guest:I feel like I remember you talking about your father.

00:29:24Marc:Me talking about my parents and issues publicly?

00:29:27Marc:That sounds ridiculous.

00:29:28Guest:I feel like I remember you being in a certain place

00:29:31Guest:on my couch talking about your father because he lives in New Mexico.

00:29:34Marc:Yes.

00:29:35Guest:So there's like a cushion of my couch that I can place you on talking about your father in New Mexico.

00:29:40Guest:Interesting.

00:29:41Marc:I don't know why.

00:29:41Marc:Yeah.

00:29:42Marc:It was probably just the ongoing conversation I have about my father.

00:29:47Marc:And I was probably talking to somebody else about their problems.

00:29:50Marc:And we probably sat down because the conversation was too heavy to just mingle with.

00:29:54Guest:Right.

00:29:55Marc:And my ex-wife was probably wandering around, you know, socializing like a person.

00:30:00Yeah.

00:30:00Marc:Are you still friends with her?

00:30:02Marc:Yeah.

00:30:02Marc:Oh, great.

00:30:04Marc:See, I didn't want to bring it up.

00:30:06Marc:Yeah.

00:30:06Marc:If there was any sort of tension or resentment between you and I, it was the fact that I thought that somehow or another you were pulling the strings.

00:30:17Guest:Come on, Mark.

00:30:19Guest:Marin.

00:30:21Guest:What?

00:30:21Guest:Do you find that when people call you your full name, it's hostile?

00:30:24Yeah.

00:30:24Guest:No, but I do.

00:30:25Guest:I do.

00:30:26Guest:I'm like, you hate me.

00:30:27Marc:Yeah.

00:30:28Marc:No, I didn't.

00:30:29Marc:Well, yeah.

00:30:31Guest:How would I be responsible for the breakup of your relationship?

00:30:33Guest:That's crazy.

00:30:34Marc:I thought you were coaching her.

00:30:35Marc:You and your feminist ways were taking away.

00:30:38Guest:Wow.

00:30:38Guest:This is no wonder.

00:30:40Guest:Wow.

00:30:40Guest:This is a big moment.

00:30:41Guest:We're here in your garage talking about you really think that I coached her through.

00:30:45Guest:When you guys were in huge fights, she was like, Jill says, and Jill said, and furthermore, Jill also said.

00:30:52Marc:That was the subtext.

00:30:53Marc:Yeah, that's what I read.

00:30:56Marc:Jill is now at her house almost channeling.

00:31:00Marc:You were in some sort of weird, your eyes were rolled back in her head, and you were using my ex-wife as a puppet against me.

00:31:07Guest:To break up with you, as I've wanted to do ever since I first met you.

00:31:11Marc:I knew it!

00:31:12Marc:I knew we could finally put these fears around, as long as I wasn't crazy.

00:31:16Guest:Got it.

00:31:17Guest:Yeah, that's what happened.

00:31:18Marc:No.

00:31:19Guest:I used her to marry you first.

00:31:20Guest:That was the first part.

00:31:21Marc:Yeah, this has all been about me and you from the beginning.

00:31:23Marc:Exactly.

00:31:24Marc:And poor Misha was just caught in the middle.

00:31:26Marc:She didn't know.

00:31:26Marc:A victim.

00:31:27Marc:She didn't know.

00:31:27Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:28Marc:The power.

00:31:28Marc:She didn't know.

00:31:29Marc:The Jewish mystical power of Jill Soloway.

00:31:32Guest:She was my Goyasha puppet, so I could finally get you.

00:31:35Ha ha!

00:31:35Guest:I couldn't have had you on my own.

00:31:37Marc:The truth comes out.

00:31:38Guest:I crafted her.

00:31:39Marc:Oh, my God.

00:31:40Marc:She was a robot.

00:31:41Marc:You were a genius.

00:31:42Marc:She was a very good robot.

00:31:43Guest:I named her Mishnah because you would think she was Jewish.

00:31:46Guest:Yes, I knew it.

00:31:47Guest:Yes, all of it.

00:31:48Marc:All right, so that's all good?

00:31:50Guest:Yeah, she's good.

00:31:51Guest:She's great.

00:31:52Guest:Okay.

00:31:53Guest:Yeah.

00:31:54Marc:Oh, man.

00:31:55Marc:I'm over that shit.

00:31:57Guest:Yeah, you should be.

00:31:58Marc:Do not even start with should.

00:32:01Marc:Heartbreak can last a lifetime.

00:32:03Guest:How long has it been?

00:32:04Marc:Since she left me?

00:32:09Guest:Yeah.

00:32:10Marc:It'll be four years in April.

00:32:11Guest:Wow, do you really feel like I'm partially responsible for that?

00:32:14Marc:No, no, no.

00:32:15Marc:I don't think that you're partially responsible for it.

00:32:17Marc:I knew you were part of her support system, and that was fine, and it was all well and good.

00:32:21Marc:I just wish there was more honesty involved in the... But, you know, you've been through breakups.

00:32:27Marc:You've probably broken a few hearts in your life.

00:32:28Guest:Perhaps.

00:32:30Marc:And the weird thing is that...

00:32:33Marc:Everyone does it differently.

00:32:34Marc:No one's going to be that straight about it.

00:32:36Marc:People are doing it to they do what they have to do to protect themselves.

00:32:39Marc:And, you know, in retrospect, you know, all the emotional stuff I get.

00:32:43Marc:I do.

00:32:44Marc:It's all that's all processed.

00:32:46Marc:But there was a feeling that I don't know, you know, it's it's fine.

00:32:52Marc:Everything's okay.

00:32:53Marc:I have no right to be angry.

00:32:55Marc:But I was thinking about the other day about this idea that people are supposed to get over things in a certain time frame.

00:33:02Marc:Because pop culture always gives you this like, well, you should be over it in exactly twice the amount of time that you were with that person.

00:33:09Marc:Or twice the amount of time.

00:33:10Marc:And it's like, to be honest with you, something is taken away from you permanently.

00:33:15Marc:And it alters your disposition and your brain permanently.

00:33:19Marc:So this idea that people are supposed to get, you carry a lot of heartache around no matter what, I think, most people, about one thing or another.

00:33:25Marc:Do you think that?

00:33:26Guest:Yeah, for sure.

00:33:28Marc:And it defines who you are and it defines your humility as you get older.

00:33:31Marc:Someday I will have humility around this particular topic and everything will be wonderful and I'll be able to go over there and say hi to her and her baby.

00:33:39Guest:She has a baby.

00:33:40Marc:I know, I know.

00:33:41Marc:Cute baby?

00:33:42Guest:Cute baby.

00:33:43Marc:Yeah, that's great.

00:33:44Guest:Do you think she's going to listen to this?

00:33:45Marc:I don't know if she even checks in with my life at all.

00:33:48Guest:She probably doesn't even know that you have a podcast.

00:33:51Marc:Yeah, I have no idea.

00:33:53Marc:I do not... Wow, this is getting heavy.

00:33:58Marc:Okay.

00:33:59Marc:I do not know.

00:34:00Marc:I do have some heavy hardness about the way everything went down, and there's part of me that would like to be mature enough.

00:34:05Marc:Do you have relationships with your exes?

00:34:08Guest:Some of them, yeah, sure.

00:34:11Guest:A couple of them.

00:34:12Marc:Outside of professional?

00:34:13Guest:Check-ins.

00:34:15Guest:I wouldn't really spend a ton of time with any of them because I don't think it's good to do to you.

00:34:19Guest:I'm in a new relationship.

00:34:21Marc:Oh, so just out of respect for the new relationship, you don't sort of- No need to dabble.

00:34:27Guest:To do that.

00:34:27Marc:To get that hit from the people that were obsessed with you in the past.

00:34:33Marc:No hits.

00:34:34Guest:That's the difference, I think.

00:34:35Guest:I think that's the difference in this relationship from all others.

00:34:39Guest:I have no interest in getting hits.

00:34:41Guest:No intrigues.

00:34:42Guest:No intrigue.

00:34:43Guest:Don't do any of that stuff.

00:34:45Guest:Don't dance around any of that stuff.

00:34:46Guest:I'm not trying to find out if I can fuck this up.

00:34:48Marc:Yeah.

00:34:49Guest:Just actually want it to, literally want it to last forever.

00:34:51Marc:Did you find that, you know, in your past relationships that you had that propensity towards like, you know, let me push the envelope on this?

00:34:57Guest:Yeah, for sure.

00:34:58Guest:Yeah.

00:34:59Guest:Every past relationship, I thought at least every day or every week, is this the right relationship?

00:35:05Guest:Should I get out?

00:35:07Marc:Every day.

00:35:07Guest:At least every day.

00:35:08Marc:And this is only the first time you were married or second?

00:35:10Marc:First time.

00:35:11Guest:First time.

00:35:12Guest:I actually got married once before for like a wacky green card protest against marriage sort of a thing.

00:35:18Marc:And how'd that go?

00:35:19Guest:It was just dumb, you know.

00:35:21Marc:The guy needed help?

00:35:23Guest:He was my boyfriend.

00:35:24Guest:He was one of those where he was my boyfriend and he needed a green card and I hated marriage so we went to Vegas and did it without telling anybody.

00:35:31Guest:Thinking I'd be able to say fuck you marriage.

00:35:34Guest:I can do it in Vegas.

00:35:37Guest:It was bad.

00:35:38Marc:Did he get his green card?

00:35:40Guest:Yeah, he still didn't get a job though.

00:35:43Guest:He was a sweet guy.

00:35:44Marc:Was he the father of the first kid?

00:35:46Guest:No, that's another guy.

00:35:48Marc:What happened with that one?

00:35:49Guest:He, you know, didn't work.

00:35:53Guest:That also didn't work.

00:35:54Guest:I didn't really believe in the whole soulmate thing, so I just like to kind of make odd choices instead.

00:36:04Marc:But this interests me, just as a person who's been in relationships and they've gone badly.

00:36:09Marc:I've both been the...

00:36:10Marc:obsessor and the obsessed, obsessed on.

00:36:13Marc:And I've had relationships like you're talking about, where from day one you're like, I don't know.

00:36:19Marc:And that doubt never goes away.

00:36:21Marc:Now what did you find, as someone who's older and wiser, was your obstacle?

00:36:26Guest:They were the wrong people.

00:36:29Guest:I actually wasn't fishing in deep enough waters.

00:36:31Guest:I was sort of taking anybody.

00:36:33Marc:Was it anybody or people that you could have control over?

00:36:36Guest:Probably people I could have control over.

00:36:38Guest:I mean, they all felt awesome and fun and they felt like love and they were intense.

00:36:42Guest:And if somebody caught my interest, I would never think to myself, this isn't going anywhere.

00:36:50Guest:I really didn't believe that Mr. Right was out there.

00:36:53Guest:So I wasn't trying to save myself for Mr. Right.

00:36:57Marc:Was it something against misters in general?

00:36:59Guest:Yeah, all of it.

00:37:01Guest:No, not men, just like love, soulmates.

00:37:03Marc:Really?

00:37:04Guest:All of it.

00:37:05Guest:I thought it was all a big lie.

00:37:06Marc:Really?

00:37:07Marc:Yeah.

00:37:07Marc:Why were you so emotionally insulated?

00:37:09Guest:I just thought it was a joke.

00:37:12Marc:Uh-huh.

00:37:13Guest:I thought it was a big fucking cosmic joke that, you know, when you meet the person that's the right person you just know.

00:37:19Guest:I thought that was like the biggest fucking joke ever.

00:37:22Marc:So you're fighting against all these sort of, you know, romance memes.

00:37:26Guest:Yeah.

00:37:26Guest:Rom-com cliches.

00:37:28Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:37:29Guest:I didn't want any of that stuff.

00:37:30Guest:I didn't want to play in any of those little fields.

00:37:35Guest:Trying to attract an awesome man.

00:37:38Marc:It seemed like a dumb game.

00:37:40Marc:Did you torture men?

00:37:42Guest:I never did intentionally.

00:37:44Marc:In retrospect?

00:37:45Guest:In retrospect, I realized I did.

00:37:46Guest:How did you do that?

00:37:47Guest:I didn't... I don't know.

00:37:50Guest:I don't think I behaved in any kind of predictable way, maybe.

00:37:54Guest:The way most women did.

00:37:55Marc:But did you remain sort of emotionally aloof?

00:37:58Guest:Not intentionally.

00:37:59Marc:No?

00:38:00Marc:No.

00:38:00Marc:Were they like pounding?

00:38:01Marc:Like, let me in.

00:38:02Marc:No, not quite enough.

00:38:03Marc:That's what would happen if me and you went out.

00:38:05Marc:Yeah.

00:38:06Guest:Good thing we got Misha to do it for us.

00:38:08Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:38:09Guest:I'm sure she's thrilled.

00:38:11Marc:Thank God she took care of that.

00:38:11Marc:All right.

00:38:12Marc:So in terms of like your process in show business, because I know a lot of people listen to this and I know that a lot of women listen to it.

00:38:19Marc:And as I said before, they get mad at me because I don't put a lot of women on.

00:38:22Guest:Why is that, by the way?

00:38:23Guest:Does it happen by accident or you just don't?

00:38:25Guest:You probably interview people you're interested in, right?

00:38:28Mm-hmm.

00:38:28Marc:Well, that's a tricky question.

00:38:30Marc:It's the same with black comics.

00:38:34Marc:I'm just not in that world.

00:38:36Guest:That's right.

00:38:36Marc:Where are they?

00:38:37Marc:They have their own world.

00:38:39Guest:Right.

00:38:39Marc:And I can reach out to that world, and I have and I will more, but it's nothing personal, but once you start doing 100 shows, people start going, excuse me, where are the Muslim comics?

00:38:53Marc:Indian women.

00:38:53Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:38:54Marc:Right.

00:38:54Marc:But no, it's really because of that.

00:38:57Marc:But I think that's something to address in general.

00:39:00Marc:I mean, women in show business, period.

00:39:01Marc:Outside of the sort of army of publicists and agents, I don't have access to a lot of them.

00:39:08Marc:But in retrospect, what did you learn from your process?

00:39:13Marc:You talked about your expectations of being coddled by show business initially, and that didn't happen.

00:39:18Marc:I mean, how did you find your way onto your first jobs?

00:39:21Guest:Well, my first jobs were sort of sitcom jobs and I just kind of went the straightforward way.

00:39:26Guest:I wrote spec scripts and had agents because- Which ones?

00:39:30Guest:I wrote Larry Sanders.

00:39:32Marc:You wrote an episode that they shot?

00:39:34Guest:No, no, no, a spec.

00:39:34Marc:Okay.

00:39:35Guest:Yeah, pretend.

00:39:37Guest:Just a pretend one.

00:39:38Marc:Right, but that was a format, so you knew the format and you wrote, yeah, right.

00:39:41Guest:And people weren't writing original specs then, so I didn't write anything original.

00:39:45Guest:And worked on The Steve Harvey Show, that was my first gig, speaking of black comics.

00:39:49Marc:I was a staff writer.

00:39:51Marc:Now what'd that staff look like?

00:39:54Guest:Everybody was black except for me pretty much.

00:39:55Guest:There was a couple white people.

00:39:58Guest:Yeah, one of the first jokes that I pitched that didn't go ever well was about birthday, like B-I-R-F-D-A-Y, a card that said happy birthday, and nobody got it.

00:40:08Guest:Just people didn't understand what the joke was.

00:40:12Marc:Well, it's good they took it that way as opposed to, you know, what's this white girl making fun of?

00:40:16Marc:Right, that's true.

00:40:18Guest:Maybe they, I don't know.

00:40:19Guest:And I realized that my sense of humor about black people wasn't the same as black people's sense of humor about black people.

00:40:24Marc:Yeah, it's tricky business.

00:40:25Guest:It's tricky, very tricky.

00:40:26Marc:Yeah.

00:40:27Guest:And, yeah.

00:40:28Guest:And afterwards, at the end of that, my boss said, maybe you should go work on a white show.

00:40:32Marc:Did he really?

00:40:33Marc:She.

00:40:33Marc:She said that?

00:40:34Guest:Yeah.

00:40:35Marc:And then you went to a white show?

00:40:37Marc:Yeah.

00:40:37Marc:Which one?

00:40:38Guest:It was called Baby Blues.

00:40:42Marc:I don't remember that show.

00:40:42Guest:It was just an animated show.

00:40:44Guest:But from that came Oblongs, which was a lot of the same people who were sort of in the world of Drew Carey and from a show called Nikki.

00:40:51Guest:Remember Nikki Cox?

00:40:53Marc:Yeah.

00:40:53Guest:Worked on her sitcom.

00:40:54Guest:Yeah.

00:40:54Marc:Was there ever issues when you were writing those shows outside of your own personal ideas of what women should be doing that you were working beneath yourself?

00:41:03Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think anytime you work on a sitcom, you're having to, a lot of people who work on sitcoms are much smarter than the material.

00:41:08Marc:Yeah, and did that bother you?

00:41:10Guest:No, I was excited to be learning how to make a living at writing comedy.

00:41:14Marc:And then you, how many years from those days did it take to get to Six Feet Under?

00:41:18Guest:Yeah, then I was really, um, felt bored.

00:41:21Guest:Then I did start to, on Nikki, I started to feel like I was in the wrong place.

00:41:24Marc:Right.

00:41:24Guest:Doing the wrong thing.

00:41:25Guest:Yeah.

00:41:25Guest:I actually do remember like an early run through going down to the stage where Nikki Cox was rehearsing something and every show started with a dance number.

00:41:34Guest:Uh-huh.

00:41:35Guest:And so first we ran through the dance number and she didn't wear bra.

00:41:38Guest:Yeah.

00:41:38Guest:You know Nikki Cox, right?

00:41:39Guest:I do.

00:41:39Guest:Yeah.

00:41:40Guest:So imagine her dancing without a bra.

00:41:42Guest:We were all standing there and we had these scripts in our hands with these jokes we'd worked on for a week.

00:41:50Guest:And everybody was just mesmerized.

00:41:52Guest:We're just watching her.

00:41:54Guest:And it was really clear that nothing that was on the scripts meant anything to anybody.

00:41:58Guest:It really was just... About her dancing without a bra.

00:42:01Marc:Just moving boobs.

00:42:03Guest:Just boobs moving.

00:42:04Marc:God, they should have called a sitcom that.

00:42:05Guest:Just moving boobs.

00:42:06Marc:Moving boobs.

00:42:07Guest:A friend of mine said all television is tits on a skateboard.

00:42:10Guest:It's just, you put tits on a skateboard and they go back and forth and all the writing is really just giving people something to say while other people are watching.

00:42:18Marc:Oh, interesting.

00:42:19Marc:I see it more as a pie eating contest.

00:42:21Marc:Yeah.

00:42:22Marc:Most of television.

00:42:24Guest:Yeah, that too, I guess.

00:42:25Marc:Have you ever watched Adam Richman's Man Versus Food?

00:42:29Guest:No.

00:42:30Marc:Oh, my God.

00:42:31Guest:I don't watch that.

00:42:31Marc:I'm obsessed with it.

00:42:33Marc:I'm obsessed with the Food Channel in general where I just want people to stop eating.

00:42:38Marc:I'm like, dude, look at yourself.

00:42:40Marc:You're just watching people shoving heart attacks into their mouths.

00:42:44Marc:It's unbelievable.

00:42:45Marc:But I like it.

00:42:46Marc:I enjoy it.

00:42:47Marc:All right.

00:42:47Marc:So Six Feet Under is a masterpiece.

00:42:49Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:42:49Guest:Thank you.

00:42:50Guest:That was an exciting move up.

00:42:51Marc:But I mean, how did that happen?

00:42:52Marc:Because you were like a prime mover on that show.

00:42:55Guest:Days after the dancing tits incident.

00:42:59Marc:The bottom fell out.

00:43:00Guest:Where the script just fell out of my hands.

00:43:03Guest:What am I doing?

00:43:04Guest:Becky Thayer of The Real Life Brady Bunch and I were on a hike.

00:43:07Guest:And we decided to do a little, just do a show to entertain each other.

00:43:11Guest:That sort of old thing that really everybody remembers is the best way to make it.

00:43:15Marc:Let's not be sad.

00:43:16Marc:Let's do something we want to do.

00:43:17Guest:And also, if it's funny to you and funny to me, we don't give a shit about anything else, which is kind of really where the kernel of all good comedy comes from anyway.

00:43:24Guest:And that was the box, which became Sit and Spoon.

00:43:27Guest:We just rented a theater, did a show.

00:43:29Guest:We said, we don't care if any agents come.

00:43:31Guest:And I said, I'm going to write a monologue for Becky to do that will make me laugh.

00:43:35Guest:Like, just me.

00:43:36Guest:Just for me only.

00:43:37Guest:And that was called Courtney Cox's Asshole.

00:43:40Guest:And it was the monologue from a first-person personal assistant of Courtney Cox talking about her bleaching her asshole.

00:43:48Marc:Nice.

00:43:48Guest:You know, just stupid shit.

00:43:50Guest:It was me pimping Becky, basically.

00:43:52Guest:Nice.

00:43:52Marc:Right, and this was the show.

00:43:53Marc:This is still an ongoing show.

00:43:54Marc:It was specifically the idea was to get writers writing to speak.

00:43:59Guest:Yeah.

00:44:00Marc:And it must be running for, God, how long has it been?

00:44:03Guest:We just celebrated our 10-year anniversary.

00:44:04Marc:I mean, that's a long time.

00:44:05Guest:It's a great show.

00:44:06Marc:Yeah, I mean, I've done it twice.

00:44:08Marc:Yeah.

00:44:08Marc:And a long time ago.

00:44:09Marc:Yeah.

00:44:10Marc:But I remember doing it because you have to write for it.

00:44:12Guest:Yeah.

00:44:12Marc:And it's good to write for it.

00:44:13Marc:It's great.

00:44:14Marc:It's a great thing.

00:44:15Marc:There's something about reading humor as opposed to just talking humor.

00:44:19Guest:Yeah.

00:44:19Guest:And it's good for people who sort of have that stand-up urge but don't want to be on stage without a piece of paper on their hand.

00:44:24Marc:And also it seems to me that initially that some of it was to embrace some of that idea that women can be crass and dirty and sex positive and kind of take a little more of the stage in that way.

00:44:35Guest:Yeah.

00:44:35Guest:Yeah, that wasn't intentional.

00:44:37Guest:It was more like, I think, it was really sort of when the internet was starting.

00:44:40Guest:Do you remember The Stump?

00:44:41Marc:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

00:44:42Guest:So there was this thing called The Stump where we were all sort of, people were all kind of writing.

00:44:45Marc:I knew some people that got hurt on The Stump.

00:44:47Guest:I'm sure.

00:44:47Marc:Yeah, there were some vicious men on The Stump.

00:44:49Guest:Yeah, it was crazy.

00:44:50Marc:And a couple vicious girls too.

00:44:51Guest:Yeah, early Facebook sort of.

00:44:52Marc:Never got involved with that.

00:44:53Guest:Yeah, but I think a lot of us were finding our voices there.

00:44:57Guest:Oh, really?

00:44:57Guest:Because we were kind of writing these funny paragraphs to each other.

00:45:02Guest:And people were sort of speaking in their almost head voices.

00:45:06Marc:That's interesting.

00:45:07Guest:There was a sort of frustration with, how come this shit is hilarious?

00:45:11Guest:And then I go write fucking tits on a skateboard every day.

00:45:13Guest:Right.

00:45:14Guest:And sit and spin was a way to take that kind of writing, that sort of internal monologue, and do it on a stage.

00:45:18Marc:Head voice.

00:45:19Marc:That's interesting.

00:45:19Marc:Have you ever said that before?

00:45:21Guest:No.

00:45:21Marc:No.

00:45:21Marc:That's a good that's a good sort of difference.

00:45:25Marc:You know, the difference between head voice and speaking voice or or the voice that you do not regulate is big.

00:45:31Guest:Yeah.

00:45:32Marc:I mean, I find that all the time.

00:45:33Marc:Like if I have to write something, it's much better if I've said it first.

00:45:37Marc:Like I built a one man show out of transcripts.

00:45:39Marc:I don't write to speak because I think it garbles things.

00:45:43Marc:It's very tricky to write in your head voice or write in your speaking voice.

00:45:47Guest:Yeah, I can do that now pretty well really yeah, so you know that how'd you just from?

00:45:53Marc:Continuing to do it.

00:45:54Guest:I think I do that in everything I write I think all my movies in my TV shows everything I write is I'm listening to people talk and just kind of that's great and many of them talk the way I talk but what about when you write like a book?

00:46:07Guest:Yeah, those were, I mean, the book started with sit and spin, with sit and spin monologues, which it's all kind of the same for me now.

00:46:14Marc:That's great.

00:46:14Marc:Head voice.

00:46:15Marc:Head voice.

00:46:16Guest:Hands typing.

00:46:17Guest:It's all kind of the same thing.

00:46:18Marc:But I guess my issue is like I speak and most of what I come up with is from improvisation.

00:46:26Marc:So once it kind of gets grooved in my head, it started as speak and it stays as speak.

00:46:32Guest:But what about your book, that book?

00:46:34Marc:That started to speak.

00:46:35Guest:Okay.

00:46:35Marc:I mean, that's from the show that was built from transcribed monologues.

00:46:40Guest:Okay.

00:46:41Marc:And then I added stuff to it, but I know where I add stuff to it.

00:46:43Marc:But there's a difference, you know, when you, because when you're writing something to write, you can, you know, sometimes it gets away from you.

00:46:50Guest:Yeah, I guess so.

00:46:51Marc:Through description and this, that.

00:46:52Marc:Yeah, yeah, okay.

00:46:53Marc:Yeah, and you're like, oh my God, that's a mouthful, and now I feel stupid, and I overwrote it.

00:46:57Guest:Yeah.

00:46:58Marc:All right, so, okay, so I'm from Sit and Spin.

00:46:59Guest:So, yeah, so that monologue, Courtney Cox's Asshole, it did very well.

00:47:06Guest:The audience loved it and laughed a lot.

00:47:07Guest:And I was like, oh, I guess this is my voice.

00:47:09Guest:It was sort of a version of my voice that I hadn't really heard before.

00:47:12Guest:And printed it up and sent it to a literary magazine as a short story.

00:47:18Marc:Yeah.

00:47:18Guest:And then two literary magazines were fighting over it.

00:47:20Marc:Wow.

00:47:21Guest:Ziziva and Exquisite Corpse.

00:47:23Marc:I remember, I kind of remember them.

00:47:25Guest:Yeah, Andre Crocescu.

00:47:26Marc:Are they still around?

00:47:28Guest:No, I don't think Lit Mags are around.

00:47:29Marc:Yeah, period.

00:47:30Guest:But I literally put in an envelope and stamps and they called me arguing, like, I can't believe you double submitted to Lit Mags.

00:47:36Guest:And I was excited because I felt like a real writer, you know, even though it was like a total joke.

00:47:40Marc:Fights of the early 90s.

00:47:43Guest:Double submitting to literary magazines with Russian editors.

00:47:47Guest:And my agent sent it to Alan Ball, that very short story, that stupid short story that was really intended just to make Becky say things that would make me laugh.

00:47:58Guest:And I went in and had an interview on Six Feet Under and got hired.

00:48:00Marc:Was it before it actually, like at the beginning?

00:48:03Guest:The first season had been shot, and so I got hired for seasons two, three, and four, and five.

00:48:09Marc:Yeah, I watched that show when it was on, then I watched all of them.

00:48:15Marc:And I was surprised.

00:48:18Marc:at how nervous it made me in my real life.

00:48:23Marc:I love the show, but when you see the opening scenes of the death, it sort of sets this weird tone where if you're very self-conscious, as I am, that if you watch enough Six Feet Unders, every step you're like, is this it?

00:48:38Marc:You're looking around for possibility.

00:48:39Guest:That's for sure.

00:48:40Marc:I have never written for a show, so I don't know what that was like.

00:48:44Marc:And it seems to me that that show was very thoughtful and that there was a lot going on intellectually.

00:48:52Marc:What was that writer's room like?

00:48:53Guest:Well, oddly, it was the least hard work I've ever done and the mellowest writer's room and the easiest hours and the least amount of rewriting.

00:49:02Guest:It was just this incredibly supportive, warm room where Alan Ball ran things very, very gently.

00:49:09Guest:We got to work like at 10.

00:49:11Guest:Had a little something to eat.

00:49:13Guest:Hung out at the table around 10.30.

00:49:16Guest:Just sweet, nice, really kind of like group therapy.

00:49:20Guest:Talking about ourselves and what TV shows we watched over the weekend.

00:49:23Guest:It was like this, but like with five more people and no things on our head.

00:49:26Guest:And just really warm conversation that would sort of evolve into and...

00:49:31Guest:stories about ourselves that we could really put into the characters' lives.

00:49:35Guest:Yeah.

00:49:37Marc:Really?

00:49:37Guest:Yeah.

00:49:38Guest:And then we would sort of put stuff up on the board and it felt really personal.

00:49:43Guest:And we'd order in something delicious.

00:49:45Guest:Yeah.

00:49:45Guest:Often from ammo.

00:49:47Guest:A great salad.

00:49:49Guest:Stop working for an hour.

00:49:50Guest:So we've only been there for like two hours at this point.

00:49:53Marc:This seems like a gilded writer's cage.

00:49:55Guest:Amazing.

00:49:56Guest:Maybe people would, after lunch, go to the bathroom, check their email, come back in around maybe 2.33.

00:50:02Guest:We'd work for another hour and a half, two hours.

00:50:04Guest:4.30, we were out of there.

00:50:06Marc:Who wrangled the script?

00:50:07Marc:Alan did all of it?

00:50:08Guest:No.

00:50:08Guest:We wrote.

00:50:09Guest:It isn't that hard to write a TV show.

00:50:11Guest:What's hard is that a whole bunch of people constantly interfere and you have to rewrite and rewrite and it gets worse and worse and then you're dealing with a pile of shit.

00:50:19Guest:But it was really protected.

00:50:21Guest:He sort of taught us that being gentle with your writing is one of the nicest things you can do to it.

00:50:27Guest:You don't want to overwork it.

00:50:29Guest:You can overwork a section so much that it's just crappy.

00:50:32Marc:That you lose complete...

00:50:33Marc:faith in everything.

00:50:35Marc:Life in general.

00:50:36Guest:And what's the point?

00:50:38Guest:He was really gentle and it all just came out really easily and beautifully.

00:50:44Guest:Sometimes there'd be arguments in the room about what was the right way to go for the show but for the most part it was like a really sort of safe group therapy where everybody felt really protected.

00:50:53Marc:Were there episodes that you were really excited about and proud of or episodes that you found surprising?

00:50:59Guest:Well, the episodes I wrote, obviously, I was proud of because I worked hard on them.

00:51:02Marc:Which ones?

00:51:02Guest:My first one was this one called Back to the Garden, which was my first episode.

00:51:06Guest:It was a Jewish funeral because I thought we hadn't done the Jewish thing yet.

00:51:11Guest:That turned out kind of awkward.

00:51:13Guest:I got a lot of things wrong there.

00:51:15Guest:The rabbi was wearing a shawl, and she was like- Oh, right.

00:51:18Marc:That was the one where he got attracted to the rabbi?

00:51:20Marc:Yeah.

00:51:20Guest:I was making mistakes with her shawl, and it wasn't a prayer shawl.

00:51:24Guest:It was a shawl.

00:51:25Marc:Did you get emails?

00:51:27Guest:Oh, every single person told us every single thing that we did wrong in that episode, yeah.

00:51:32Guest:I mean, people did that for every episode.

00:51:34Guest:Like, I'm Thai, Thai funerals aren't like this, or I'm Armenian, you guys, you know, always.

00:51:39Marc:This was on the blogs?

00:51:41Marc:Everything.

00:51:41Guest:In person, somebody would come to visit the set, a blog, like they were always getting things wrong and people like to point that out.

00:51:46Guest:That was a way I think people have interacting with their favorite shows.

00:51:49Marc:I made a cameo on that show, my radio show.

00:51:51Marc:It was in the car when, what's her name, was driving the daughter.

00:51:55Guest:Oh, Air America you mean?

00:51:56Marc:Yeah.

00:51:56Marc:She was listening to you?

00:51:57Guest:It was my show.

00:51:58Guest:That's awesome.

00:51:59Guest:Love it.

00:51:59Guest:That's so cool.

00:52:02Marc:Okay, I remember that episode.

00:52:03Marc:I liked that one.

00:52:03Guest:And what was the other one?

00:52:05Guest:Let's see.

00:52:05Guest:I wrote another one that season, I think.

00:52:08Guest:I wrote a bunch of them.

00:52:09Guest:What else did I write?

00:52:10Guest:I wrote the one where Nate and Brenda had a huge fight when he found out that she was having an affair and lying.

00:52:16Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:18Guest:One of the last ones.

00:52:19Marc:Is that from your life?

00:52:21Guest:No, I don't think so.

00:52:22Guest:That was sort of...

00:52:24Guest:That was just kind of a long time coming on the show, that Nate and Brenda.

00:52:28Guest:Remember, Brenda was like slutting around.

00:52:29Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:52:29Marc:And she was rationalizing.

00:52:31Guest:Yeah, because she was writing about it.

00:52:32Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:52:33Guest:I mean, that idea, I think, wasn't necessarily specifically from my life, but I've always thought that was kind of a funny feminist thing.

00:52:38Guest:It's like, I'm just a stripper because I'm writing about it.

00:52:40Guest:Right.

00:52:41Guest:I have to be a sex worker, so I have something to write about.

00:52:43Marc:That's just a stone's throw away from like to put myself through college, really.

00:52:48Marc:I mean, how many people really get out?

00:52:50Marc:Well, no, I like that.

00:52:51Marc:I liked Brenda.

00:52:52Marc:She was kind of intense and annoying.

00:52:55Marc:You know what's interesting about that show is that there were literally, because I was watching it every night, sometimes two episodes, and there were times where I was like, oh, shut the fuck up.

00:53:05Marc:I mean, like they were annoying me.

00:53:07Guest:Yeah.

00:53:07Marc:But I didn't stop watching.

00:53:08Guest:Yeah.

00:53:09Marc:But I was literally like, really?

00:53:10Marc:That is fucking ridiculous.

00:53:12Guest:Yeah.

00:53:12Guest:Because they were all so flawed and they all made huge mistakes the way real people do.

00:53:16Marc:Right.

00:53:16Marc:And it wasn't because of the writing or anything else.

00:53:17Marc:It was literally because I was irritated with that person.

00:53:20Guest:Yeah.

00:53:20Guest:Like they're real.

00:53:21Marc:Yeah.

00:53:21Guest:Like she's really in your house.

00:53:22Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:53:23Marc:And then I dated a woman who lived across the street from the woman who played the mother.

00:53:29Marc:Oh.

00:53:29Marc:What's her name?

00:53:30Guest:Her name is Frances Conroy.

00:53:31Marc:Right.

00:53:32Marc:Frances Conroy.

00:53:32Marc:And I would see her on the street with her car and being Frances Conroy.

00:53:36Marc:And I'm like, she's really that person.

00:53:38Marc:Yeah.

00:53:39Marc:But she's not really.

00:53:40Marc:Don't you find that now that you've been in show business 20 some odd years when you see somebody you haven't seen in a while, you're like, oh my God, what have you been doing?

00:53:46Guest:Yeah.

00:53:47Marc:Are you still in this ridiculous thing?

00:53:49Marc:Yes.

00:53:49Marc:I want to get out of it.

00:53:50Guest:It's dumb, this business.

00:53:51Marc:You do?

00:53:52Guest:I mean, it seems like it's harder to make a living than ever right now.

00:53:57Marc:I'm in my garage.

00:53:58Guest:I know.

00:53:58Guest:We're in your garage.

00:53:59Guest:But this seems good.

00:54:00Marc:But I'm surprised that you don't want to be in show business.

00:54:03Marc:You seem to be doing... You've always seemed to sort of chugged along.

00:54:06Marc:You wrote some books.

00:54:06Guest:I chug along.

00:54:07Guest:Yeah, I chug along.

00:54:07Guest:I don't know if people are really interested in my feminist ways.

00:54:11Marc:Huh.

00:54:13Marc:Well.

00:54:15Marc:Maybe they are.

00:54:16Marc:But what is the shift from maybe the Jew feminist thing?

00:54:20Marc:So tell me about this shift and how you integrate feminism into this Jew thing.

00:54:25Guest:I don't know if I integrate them together.

00:54:26Guest:I actually do think that an interest in feminism and an interest in Judaism are related in some ways because I feel like misogyny and anti-Semitism are sort of related.

00:54:35Guest:Yeah.

00:54:36Marc:Really?

00:54:36Guest:Yeah.

00:54:38Guest:I mean, that's a dorking thing.

00:54:39Guest:But, you know, the sort of a hatred of the, you know.

00:54:42Marc:Other?

00:54:43Guest:Dark places.

00:54:44Guest:Other.

00:54:44Marc:All right, so, but tell me, you know, make me want to be a new Jew.

00:54:47Guest:Why?

00:54:50Guest:Why?

00:54:51Guest:Well...

00:54:52Marc:I mean, you asked me to do something.

00:54:54Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:54:54Guest:I wish you would have done it.

00:54:55Guest:It hasn't happened yet.

00:54:56Guest:You're going to be out of town.

00:54:57Marc:I think so.

00:54:58Marc:I think we discussed it.

00:54:58Marc:What was it that you wanted me to do?

00:55:01Guest:Go off of all of your electronics for 24 hours for the National Day of Unplugging.

00:55:05Marc:Oh, my God.

00:55:06Guest:I just... Write about it.

00:55:08Marc:I had a surge of panic.

00:55:09Guest:Yeah.

00:55:10Marc:I am compulsively...

00:55:12Marc:Like literally when I go to bed at night and I turn everything off, I'm paralyzed with fear.

00:55:18Guest:Yeah.

00:55:18Marc:Yeah.

00:55:18Guest:I have to make fun of it a lot because I'm a very cynical person.

00:55:22Guest:And there's only a couple small things that make me interested in Judaism.

00:55:25Guest:I'm only mildly a tiny bit interested in it, but I feel compelled that I must do something to help it.

00:55:33Marc:Really?

00:55:33Guest:I'm often compelled by the idea that I have to help somebody or something.

00:55:37Guest:And I feel bad for Judaism.

00:55:39Yeah.

00:55:39Marc:Judaism seems to be crying and lost.

00:55:42Guest:Yeah, it's like a sex worker that needs me to rescue it.

00:55:45Marc:An old tired sex worker that just can't sell its pussy anymore.

00:55:50Guest:Think about the Holocaust.

00:55:52Marc:Think about it.

00:55:52Guest:Just for a second, which I can't even do for a half a second.

00:55:55Marc:Like really wrap my brain around it?

00:55:57Marc:Like the idea of the Holocaust, the reality of all those people being killed.

00:56:02Guest:Right.

00:56:03Guest:And so sometimes when that's my way of going, OK, I all those people died.

00:56:09Guest:I'll do this for them.

00:56:11Guest:I'll make an effort to see if I can make a Jewish event that I want to go to.

00:56:15Marc:I will make an effort to get people to not look at their iPhones for a day.

00:56:19Marc:For the millions that died.

00:56:20Guest:No, no, no.

00:56:21Guest:I know it's crazy.

00:56:22Guest:It makes no sense.

00:56:23Guest:No, no, it does make sense.

00:56:24Guest:You know, just try to, you know, ask not what your country can do for you.

00:56:27Guest:You know, everybody says, I feel Jewish.

00:56:31Guest:And then they say, but then I go to temple and I don't even go to temple.

00:56:33Guest:I hate it.

00:56:34Guest:It's dumb.

00:56:34Guest:I want nothing to do with it.

00:56:35Guest:So I just feel like, you know, if I'm putting all this energy into producing sit and spin, why not put the same amount of energy into producing a Jewish version of that?

00:56:44Marc:Well, my feeling was when I went to that Seder even.

00:56:47Guest:Oh, that's why you did perform at one thing.

00:56:48Marc:Yeah.

00:56:49Marc:Yeah.

00:56:49Guest:That was sort of, I feel like it was like a 50% success that evening.

00:56:52Marc:No, I didn't have any real problem with it other than the real absence of family was like that the idea of reinventing a Seder because either we're displaced, we're out of town, or we're not going to go home, that as annoying as regular Seders are, really the only reason you're there is it's familiar and you get to see your aunt.

00:57:13Yeah.

00:57:13Marc:I mean, and so like the idea of sort of rethinking the ritual, because everyone does their own Seder and usually it's lazy or it's not lazy or somebody thinks they're a rabbi and so and so gets to read the questions that the idea of taking the tradition and making it our own as a community of young Jews, you know, without that, the baggage.

00:57:32Marc:of our family is it's like that was the only thing holding us to it was essentially that baggage that there was a predictability to these events and that to sort of redefine it for ourselves without that is a little, it's a little odd.

00:57:48Guest:It's hard.

00:57:48Guest:I feel like every time I'm part of an event, I don't know if it's going to go well.

00:57:53Guest:And sometimes it's great and sometimes it doesn't.

00:57:55Guest:And I feel like that event in particular, it was in a rock club, so it didn't really have the kind of warmth that I feel like it should.

00:58:03Marc:And the rabbi was kind of interesting.

00:58:04Marc:He seemed to be a real showman.

00:58:06Marc:He's a real showman.

00:58:08Guest:But I think the thing about those childhood seders and childhood family dinners that I feel like I'm...

00:58:14Guest:Sort of responding against is the sort of sense of melancholy around the Judaism of my childhood.

00:58:18Guest:And I kind of want to give my kid, well, started with Isaac with my older son and now Felix.

00:58:23Guest:I want them to not associate Judaism with sadness.

00:58:27Marc:Well, then what is it?

00:58:30Marc:I mean, don't you know what we've been through?

00:58:33Guest:Yeah, that whole Holocaust thing.

00:58:35Marc:But even before that, it was no easy thing.

00:58:37Guest:Is that it?

00:58:38Guest:It's only sadness?

00:58:38Guest:Isn't there anything else?

00:58:40Marc:No, it's not sadness.

00:58:42Marc:I mean, you're talking about rewiring the entire Jewish unconscious if you're going to dismiss.

00:58:47Marc:What has propelled us is a desire for exceptionalism.

00:58:53Marc:Disappointment has fueled Jews' ambition forever.

00:58:58Guest:Yeah.

00:58:59Marc:I mean, you know, if there wasn't an older Jew saying, is that it?

00:59:04Marc:Then who would do anything?

00:59:06Guest:Yeah.

00:59:06Marc:Why don't you get a better grade?

00:59:09Guest:Yeah, I don't know.

00:59:11Guest:All right.

00:59:12Guest:I feel like there's some repair to be done with the kind of...

00:59:15Marc:you know melancholy well i have a hard time well the whole problem okay so so fine you can repair that but how are you going to make the dances not look stupid the dances are always going to look stupid right how are you how are you going to teach jews that it doesn't matter what color or what your keep eyes made of it's just a fucking yarmulke okay you got in israel it's got a banana on it so it's just ridiculous

00:59:38Guest:It's a Lakers yarmulke.

00:59:40Guest:It's still not sexy.

00:59:41Marc:No, there's nothing to get... Wow, nice tallis.

00:59:45Marc:Okay, that's still very limited to the context.

00:59:48Guest:Yeah, no, I... Yeah, the dances are always going to be dumb.

00:59:52Guest:And, you know...

00:59:54Guest:I just try to work on small things.

00:59:56Guest:There are a couple of rabbis.

00:59:57Guest:There's a guy named Mordecai Finley.

00:59:58Guest:Do you know who he is?

00:59:59Marc:No, but I like his name.

01:00:00Guest:He's super brilliant.

01:00:01Guest:He has a congregation on the west side.

01:00:04Guest:You go to him, and he's really smart.

01:00:08Guest:It's like sitting with the most brilliant professor ever, and he interprets Judaism in a way that makes me go, I have a lot to learn here.

01:00:15Guest:This is the coolest college class I've ever been to.

01:00:18Marc:Okay, so I'm part of the community.

01:00:20Guest:Okay, you're in, yes.

01:00:21Marc:I want emails.

01:00:22Guest:Jew it up.

01:00:22Guest:You're going to get one.

01:00:23Marc:I'm going to I'm going to pull it.

01:00:24Marc:See, where's my see that?

01:00:25Marc:There's my tallest right there.

01:00:26Guest:I'm so excited.

01:00:27Marc:Do you know the miracle of that tallest?

01:00:29Guest:Should we get it out and kiss it or something?

01:00:31Marc:No, but my cat peed on the tallest bag and and it was stained badly.

01:00:36Marc:And I recently looked at it and the stain was gone.

01:00:39Guest:Wow.

01:00:40Marc:Yes.

01:00:41Marc:That that is a true shit story.

01:00:43Guest:God is real.

01:00:44Marc:God is real.

01:00:45Marc:I wish he would take the cat pee smell out of the other things in the house.

01:00:48Guest:So then you wouldn't know because they're not Jewish things.

01:00:51Marc:Isn't everything that I touched that you were saying automatically?

01:00:54Marc:Yes, probably, yeah.

01:00:55Marc:Or at least by proxy?

01:00:56Guest:Yeah, but the thing about taking a day off from your electronics is if you do it, the only person who knows is you.

01:01:06Guest:Right.

01:01:06Guest:So you're making a relationship with your conscience, and that's kind of what makes it spiritual.

01:01:12Marc:Sure.

01:01:13Marc:I mean, yeah, it's like I believe that you can have faith without God and that, you know, that your higher self can be informed and can inform you if you allow it to.

01:01:24Guest:Yeah.

01:01:25Marc:And if you want to attach God as being the puppet master of that higher self.

01:01:28Marc:Yeah.

01:01:28Marc:Knock yourself out.

01:01:29Guest:No need to bring up God.

01:01:31Marc:Yeah.

01:01:31Marc:Tell that to the Jews.

01:01:32Guest:Yeah.

01:01:33Marc:Tell that to God.

01:01:34Marc:All right, Jill, do you feel confident about what we've done here?

01:01:37Guest:Yeah.

01:01:38Guest:Very much so.

01:01:39Guest:You don't feel like I don't like you, right?

01:01:40Yeah.

01:01:41Marc:No, I feel like we were fine.

01:01:43Marc:We did gut and we talked about... We dealt with the obstacle and you're nicer than I remember you being.

01:01:49Guest:Oh my God, horrible.

01:01:49Guest:Really?

01:01:49Guest:Do you not remember me being nice?

01:01:51Marc:I just remember you being a frightening feminine force, which I... Well, you were trying to do that.

01:01:57Guest:Frightening?

01:01:57Guest:You think I was trying to frighten you?

01:02:00Marc:Do you think a person who created the group object is not going to be frightening on some level?

01:02:05Guest:Object.

01:02:06Marc:Like if I had never met you before and I said, what do you do?

01:02:09Marc:And you said, I'm the creator and member of the group object to empower women.

01:02:14Guest:That's scary.

01:02:16Guest:I don't know.

01:02:17Guest:Is feminism scary?

01:02:18Guest:I guess so.

01:02:19Guest:I didn't mean to be scary.

01:02:20Marc:No, it's not scary.

01:02:21Marc:I just like, I'm a pretty sensitive, but very angry guy.

01:02:24Marc:Yeah, that's right.

01:02:25Marc:Okay.

01:02:25Marc:And I think that, you know, you sense that immediately.

01:02:27Marc:And I think that what I reacted to was you basically exuding the vibe of like, I'm not going to put up with this Jewish shit at all.

01:02:35Guest:Really?

01:02:37Guest:Yeah.

01:02:37Guest:Okay.

01:02:38Guest:I never thought that about you.

01:02:41Guest:I made it up.

01:02:42Guest:Yeah.

01:02:43Marc:Oh, that's lovely.

01:02:44Guest:Yeah, you projected something.

01:02:46Marc:Yeah, I did.

01:02:47Marc:Well, I apologize.

01:02:48Marc:Okay.

01:02:48Marc:What are your books called?

01:02:50Guest:I have one book.

01:02:50Guest:It's called Tiny Ladies in Shiny Pants.

01:02:53Marc:Okay.

01:02:54Marc:And that's a fun book?

01:02:55Guest:That's a fun read, yeah.

01:02:57Marc:And did you make any movies?

01:02:59Marc:I'd like people to know exactly who they just heard.

01:03:01Marc:You were the writer on The Six Feet Under.

01:03:03Marc:On The Six Feet Under, yeah.

01:03:04Marc:You're the creator, Sit and Spin.

01:03:05Guest:United States of Terror.

01:03:07Marc:Oh, you created that?

01:03:08Guest:No, I just ran that show last year.

01:03:10Marc:Oh, that's good.

01:03:12Marc:That was fun.

01:03:12Marc:See, this is stuff that a lot of interviews would put at the beginning.

01:03:15Guest:Yeah, that's okay.

01:03:16Marc:Yeah, it's good at the end, right?

01:03:17Guest:I'm just a doyen.

01:03:18Marc:What's that?

01:03:19Guest:I don't know.

01:03:19Marc:What is a doyen?

01:03:20Guest:I'm the lady who makes things happen.

01:03:21Marc:Oh, well, fuck.

01:03:23Marc:That's awesome.

01:03:24Marc:I'm going to become more of a Jew because of you.

01:03:26Marc:All right, good.

01:03:27Marc:All right, Jill.

01:03:27Marc:Jill's out.

01:03:28Marc:Thanks.

01:03:34Marc:Well, that's that.

01:03:35Marc:I think we've had our quotient of Jewiness for a little while.

01:03:37Marc:I have.

01:03:39Marc:But it was lovely to talk to Jill.

01:03:41Marc:Hope you enjoyed the show.

01:03:42Marc:Please go to WTFPod.com and do what you got to do there.

01:03:45Marc:Get on that mailing list.

01:03:47Marc:I like having you on there.

01:03:48Marc:Put a lot of work into them.

01:03:50Marc:And I use MailChimp.

01:03:51Marc:Did I mention that?

01:03:51Marc:MailChimp.com.

01:03:54Marc:Also, please, at WTFPod, you can get connected to everything.

01:03:59Marc:We've got the merch.

01:04:00Marc:You've got your shirts.

01:04:00Marc:You've got your mugs.

01:04:01Marc:You can donate, kick in a few shekels.

01:04:03Marc:I can still use them.

01:04:05Marc:Believe it or not, I am trying to make a living at this.

01:04:08Marc:A lot of things are happening, but quite honestly, not a lot of money.

01:04:13Marc:But I'm getting by, but I could always use the support because, you know, I work with people and they could use the support.

01:04:19Marc:Kick in a few shekels at WTFPod.com.

01:04:21Marc:Get some JustCoffee.coop.

01:04:23Marc:Please.

01:04:24Marc:I haven't done a... Yeah, I'm not going to do it.

01:04:27Marc:JustCoffee.coop.

01:04:28Marc:Get the WTF blend and I get a little on the back end of that.

01:04:31Marc:You know, it's a bag of coffee, so, you know, don't think I'm breaking the bank with that either.

01:04:36Marc:But I do love it.

01:04:38Marc:Love the coffee.

01:04:40Marc:You can get the apps there.

01:04:42Marc:Jeez, what else can I tell you?

01:04:43Marc:Tonight, yeah, tonight, the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th of June, I'm at the Denver Comedy Works.

01:04:49Marc:Next Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, 23rd, and Sunday through the 26th, I'll be in Edmonton at the large room at the mall, the comic strip.

01:04:58Marc:Please, God, please come out.

01:05:01Marc:Please, my what the fucking nuts.

01:05:03Marc:I'll bring shirts.

01:05:04Marc:I'll have some sense.

01:05:05Marc:I'll do something.

01:05:06Marc:I'll have shirts in Denver, too.

01:05:07Marc:I'm bringing them.

01:05:08Marc:I got merch.

01:05:10Marc:Does that help?

01:05:11Marc:Please come.

01:05:13Marc:What else do I have to tell you?

01:05:15Marc:Oh, the premiums.

01:05:16Marc:You know, if you go to iTunes and search WTF Premium, a lot of new episodes up for some of the old episodes that are only available streaming on the app, or you can purchase them as MP3s at WTF Premium on iTunes, or you can go to WTFPod.com and get the link through to WTFPodShop.com.

01:05:39Marc:I think Patrice just went up and a lot of other ones.

01:05:42Marc:We're building that library, so you can look forward to that if you missed some of those older episodes.

01:05:45Marc:God damn it.

01:05:47Marc:I'm so happy you guys like my show.

01:05:49Marc:I gotta go.

01:05:50Marc:I'm gonna cry.