Episode 176 - Phil Rosenthal

Episode 176 • Released May 18, 2011 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:07Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:08Guest:Really?

00:00:08Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:09Guest:Are we doing this?

00:00:10Guest:Wait for it.

00:00:12Guest:Pow!

00:00:12Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:14Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?

00:00:16Guest:What's wrong with me?

00:00:17Guest:It's time for WTF!

00:00:19Guest:What the fuck?

00:00:20Guest:With Marc Maron.

00:00:24Guest:Okay, let's do this.

00:00:25Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:26Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:28Marc:What the fuckericans?

00:00:29Marc:What the fucknicks?

00:00:30Marc:What the fuckexicans?

00:00:32Marc:That's what someone asked me to say.

00:00:34Marc:That doesn't even work.

00:00:36Marc:What the fucksicans?

00:00:37Marc:What the fucksicans?

00:00:38Marc:That works.

00:00:39Marc:All right, enough of that.

00:00:40Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:41Marc:This is WTF.

00:00:42Marc:I'm here.

00:00:43Marc:It is sunny out.

00:00:44Marc:It is Los Angeles.

00:00:46Marc:It's been a weird week out here.

00:00:48Marc:Ben Laden, all this porn.

00:00:50Marc:I didn't need to see that guy as just a guy, as a person.

00:00:54Marc:now i see him as a person that's what it took for me to see ben laden as a human being obviously he's an evil fuck and he did horrible things but he's got a porn stash and they're they're they're in the in the press they're sort of spinning it like well this will discredit him in the muslim world but in the western world oh shit yeah just a guy

00:01:13Marc:who fucking killed 3000 people, but God damn it.

00:01:17Marc:Now I got to know that about Ben Laden.

00:01:19Marc:That's how, isn't that a sad testament to maybe who I am or who we are that the fact that he's, he watches porn in my mind didn't make me go, Oh, that's so fucked up.

00:01:30Marc:Now he's even more evil.

00:01:31Marc:No, now he's just a dude.

00:01:33Marc:sitting around with a lot of time on his hands and three annoying wives jerking off in the back room.

00:01:40Marc:He could have ended up like Elvis.

00:01:41Marc:When are we going to learn more?

00:01:42Marc:Did he eat peanut butter and bacon sandwiches?

00:01:46Marc:Could have died on the toilet, that guy.

00:01:49Marc:Just a guy who did a horrendous, evil fucking thing.

00:01:52Marc:I would have rather not had him humanized.

00:01:56Marc:That's all.

00:01:57Marc:I've been going down to this coffee shop here in Highland Park, this Cafe de Leche.

00:02:01Marc:A couple owns it.

00:02:04Marc:He's a fan.

00:02:05Marc:Cute place.

00:02:07Marc:You know, I got plenty of coffee here.

00:02:08Marc:I don't need to go out for coffee, but they have very good coffee there.

00:02:11Marc:And there's a woman who works at that place who I swear hates me, but that's just a relationship I'm creating in my mind for a change.

00:02:17Marc:But I go to Cafe de Leche and have a nice coffee.

00:02:20Marc:I go out to my car and there's a dude on the street, long-haired dude.

00:02:25Marc:He's got a beard.

00:02:25Marc:He's got a mustache.

00:02:27Marc:He's not a homeless guy at all.

00:02:30Marc:He looks almost like some sort of Sufi mystic of some kind.

00:02:35Marc:And he's in this yard and there's this huge lemon tree.

00:02:40Marc:There's lemons all over the place.

00:02:42Marc:And he goes, do you want some lemons?

00:02:44Marc:And I said, fuck yeah, I want lemons.

00:02:45Marc:I eat lemons all the time.

00:02:47Marc:Every morning I eat lemons.

00:02:48Marc:I'm like, yeah, I would love some lemons.

00:02:50Marc:So I pack up this bag with a bunch of lemons.

00:02:54Marc:And then now I'm out of those lemons.

00:02:57Marc:So he said I could have lemons anytime.

00:03:00Marc:Does that mean that I can go over there anytime and get lemons, even if he's not there?

00:03:04Marc:This is what I'm festering about.

00:03:06Marc:Like I could buy lemons, but I know this guy's got free lemons.

00:03:10Marc:They're growing right on a fucking tree in front of this place.

00:03:12Marc:I don't even know if he lives there.

00:03:14Marc:He may not have anything to do with that place.

00:03:16Marc:He might have just been walking by.

00:03:19Marc:And he brought me on this little journey with him to get free lemons.

00:03:22Marc:But I mean, where's the cutoff there?

00:03:24Marc:Do I now have license to go back there and get free lemons?

00:03:29Marc:Now, does that make me, Julie, see, am I being a stereotype right now?

00:03:35Marc:I've always worried about that.

00:03:36Marc:At some point, I really... I don't know if I come off as Jewy to you guys, and I haven't talked about the Jewy thing in a long time, but my guest today is Phil Rosenthal, who did the documentary Exporting Raymond, which I saw.

00:03:48Marc:I'm excited to talk to him about it because...

00:03:50Marc:It was it's a great it's actually a great documentary.

00:03:54Marc:But there was that thing, you know, being a Jew and, you know, he's a Jew.

00:03:58Marc:And, you know, in the movie, he's he's acting pretty Jewy.

00:04:01Marc:And then I thought to myself, do I act Jewy?

00:04:04Marc:At some point, I tried to stifle the Jewiness.

00:04:07Marc:When I was a younger man, I embraced the Jewiness.

00:04:10Marc:I thought, why not act like an old Jewish man as a 15 year old?

00:04:15Marc:Or an 18 year old.

00:04:17Marc:What?

00:04:17Marc:Come on.

00:04:18Marc:Let's we'll get a little nosh.

00:04:19Marc:Something to eat.

00:04:20Marc:What?

00:04:21Marc:But then at some point I said, why am I?

00:04:23Marc:I'm inventing that.

00:04:25Marc:I don't come from New York.

00:04:26Marc:I'm not some sort of second or third generation New Yorker.

00:04:30Marc:I grew up in New Mexico.

00:04:31Marc:Renegade Jews.

00:04:33Marc:Why am I acting like that?

00:04:34Marc:I got some people pointed that out lately that I get a little Zeligy.

00:04:39Marc:That sometimes when I'm talking to a guest, I will appropriate their tone or their accent.

00:04:45Marc:I think that's just because I assume, why can't I just occupy their personality for a minute?

00:04:52Marc:Maybe it'll make it smoother.

00:04:55Marc:Something happens on an unconscious level.

00:04:57Marc:I had that problem when I lived in Astoria.

00:04:59Marc:A lot of Greek restaurants, I go in.

00:05:01Marc:Please, yes.

00:05:03Marc:Please, cream cheese.

00:05:03Marc:Yeah, please.

00:05:05Marc:I just do it.

00:05:06Marc:I don't know.

00:05:07Marc:I'm just rambling.

00:05:08Marc:What am I avoiding, Mark?

00:05:10Marc:What else is bothering you?

00:05:12Marc:I'll tell you what's bothering me.

00:05:14Marc:Is it possible that there's some part of the male being...

00:05:18Marc:That wants to have a baby because I don't know if I want to have a baby, but my friend just had a baby and I'm shopping for baby presents.

00:05:25Marc:I don't I don't understand that.

00:05:28Marc:I my buddy Brendan had a baby.

00:05:31Marc:So now like everywhere I go, they got baby shit there.

00:05:34Marc:I'm like, well, maybe I get some baby shit for the baby.

00:05:37Marc:I like buying baby clothes.

00:05:39Marc:Is that is that something men do?

00:05:42Marc:So I just bought him some stuff, bought him some baby clothes, some more.

00:05:46Marc:I already sent them a present with a couple of shirts.

00:05:47Marc:I got the baby a Led Zeppelin shirt and Elvis Presley shirt.

00:05:52Marc:And now I bought the kid a small bong.

00:05:58Marc:Is that wrong?

00:05:59Marc:I figured he'd get it out of the way.

00:06:00Marc:I didn't buy him.

00:06:01Marc:I bought him some more shirts, but now I want to...

00:06:04Marc:Fuck, should I have a baby?

00:06:05Marc:Maybe a baby would help me.

00:06:07Marc:Is that the wrong way to enter it?

00:06:09Marc:Is that the wrong reason?

00:06:11Marc:Like, I'm running out of time here.

00:06:12Marc:I'm 47 years old.

00:06:15Marc:Maybe I should just have a baby and that'll fix everything.

00:06:17Marc:That's the right reason to have a kid, right?

00:06:20Marc:How will it help me?

00:06:22Marc:So my question is, is there something within the male DNA that wants like I know the women feel that thing in their guts where they're like, it's time.

00:06:31Marc:It's time to start, you know, bringing an egg into fruition.

00:06:36Marc:Somebody kick this off.

00:06:38Marc:Give me that cock.

00:06:38Marc:Let's make this happen.

00:06:40Marc:I know that that's in there.

00:06:41Marc:So I hear.

00:06:43Marc:But is there something within my yin yang cells?

00:06:46Marc:my little spirally dnas they're just dancing around looking for a reason to move on through several generations of me ying yang bipolar let's carry it on i'm sorry if i didn't have clarity on this one we're going to talk to phil rosenthal about uh everybody loves raymond and the uh

00:07:07Marc:exporting raymond his uh movie his documentary about having to go to russia to help consult on their creation of a pilot for their version of everybody loves raymond i just wish i had consistency this guy watched the movie this guy phil his parents are just classic hilarious jewish parents

00:07:28Marc:Mine are anything but classic, rarely hilarious, and completely difficult, but not necessarily in a funny way.

00:07:38Marc:Am I complaining?

00:07:38Marc:God damn it, this is so rambling.

00:07:41Marc:Fuck, I should call Corolla and thank him for putting me on that live show.

00:07:46Marc:I realize I just didn't, I just kind of bailed, said, was that okay?

00:07:51Marc:I didn't, you know what, let's call Corolla and yeah, I'll just thank him.

00:07:56Marc:Might as well do it on the air.

00:08:05Guest:Hello?

00:08:06Marc:Adam.

00:08:07Guest:Mark?

00:08:08Marc:Yeah, Mark Maron, buddy.

00:08:09Guest:What's going on?

00:08:10Marc:Nothing.

00:08:10Marc:I didn't mean to call you at home.

00:08:12Marc:I don't even think I should have this number, but I got it because I felt like I should thank you for having me on the show down there at Irvine.

00:08:19Marc:That was fun, man.

00:08:20Guest:Oh, man, I had a great time with you, Mark, and it's nice.

00:08:24Guest:You tell me, you probably understand this from interviewing enough people, that you really get it up on stage, which is the difference between being on stage with someone who's been on stage a lot versus a guy who's supposed to be funny or a guy who's on a TV show.

00:08:44Guest:or a chick that looks good in a bikini.

00:08:48Marc:Yeah, I can't do any of those things.

00:08:51Guest:No, you do.

00:08:53Guest:That's what I'm saying.

00:08:54Guest:That's why I added the bikini thing at the end.

00:08:56Guest:I wanted you to have something that you can hang your hat on.

00:08:59Marc:Well, I was just glad that I was wearing that.

00:09:01Marc:No one really said anything at the show, and that you didn't draw attention to it when we were on stage.

00:09:06Marc:But I had a great time, and I know what you're talking about.

00:09:09Marc:It's good to be with the guys that know how to...

00:09:10Marc:sort of talk on stage and be on the mic.

00:09:12Marc:And I was just poking around your schedule here, and I see your... What's this thing you're doing at the Wiltern?

00:09:19Marc:When is that?

00:09:20Guest:Well, that's May 21st.

00:09:22Guest:I'm going to be at the Wiltern, and Kimmel's going to come by and do a little bit with me.

00:09:28Guest:And ESPN's sports guy, Bill Simmons, is going to come by and do a little bit with me.

00:09:32Guest:And it's basically...

00:09:33Guest:I don't know if you've ever experienced playing in town, but it's the worst town ever to do comedy.

00:09:42Guest:Yeah.

00:09:43Guest:And it's really weird because you go to Seattle and you sell out a 1900-seat theater on a Sunday night, no problem.

00:09:51Guest:But I'm from L.A.,

00:09:53Guest:And L.A.

00:09:54Guest:'s got to be the only town where you're from.

00:09:56Guest:If you're from L.A., you're penalized.

00:09:59Marc:Well, yeah, I don't know.

00:09:59Marc:It seems like they just see you as a neighbor.

00:10:03Marc:Right.

00:10:04Marc:That's that guy that lives across from me.

00:10:06Marc:You know, I see him every day putting stuff in his truck.

00:10:09Guest:Yeah, I think, I don't know what it is, but it ain't no big whoop.

00:10:13Guest:And so when we were going to play, you know, and someone said, hey, you want to play the Wiltern?

00:10:18Guest:Yeah.

00:10:18Guest:Which, by the way, I lived in Los Angeles for 39 years before I realized the theater was named because it's on the corner of Wilshire and Western.

00:10:29Yeah.

00:10:29Marc:Oh, really?

00:10:30Marc:It's not a guy?

00:10:31Marc:Not Mr. Wiltern?

00:10:32Marc:It's got nothing to do with anything?

00:10:33Guest:No, it's not like Larry Wiltern turned over the first scoop of dirt in 1931 over there.

00:10:40Guest:It's on Wilshire and Western.

00:10:42Guest:There's got to be something in the water that runs along Wilshire Boulevard because the other place they have over there that is not inspired in the naming department is...

00:10:54Guest:The La Brea Tar Pits.

00:10:56Guest:Yeah.

00:10:57Guest:How did that meeting go?

00:10:59Guest:Hey, where are we?

00:11:00Guest:Well, we're right off La Brea.

00:11:02Guest:What do we got here, people?

00:11:03Guest:Well, we got a hole.

00:11:04Marc:We got a bubbling hole full of goo.

00:11:06Guest:I called a pit.

00:11:08Guest:You're right, Phil.

00:11:09Guest:There's more of a pit.

00:11:10Guest:And what do we got in there?

00:11:12Guest:Well, we got tar.

00:11:13Guest:Yeah.

00:11:13Guest:Okay.

00:11:14Guest:Yeah.

00:11:15Guest:We're good.

00:11:16Guest:I say we call it the La Brea Tar Pit or Pit of Tar.

00:11:19Guest:Doesn't matter.

00:11:20Guest:Either way, I'm hungry.

00:11:21Guest:Let's go.

00:11:21Marc:Well, maybe you should do a show at the tar pits.

00:11:23Marc:Maybe that'll add an extra added thing.

00:11:25Marc:And maybe you get Jimmy to jump in the pit, something like that.

00:11:29Guest:By the way,

00:11:32Guest:When you have a pit of tar, aren't you trying to come up with some sort of euphemistic title like Hole of Wonderment?

00:11:42Marc:Yeah, but yeah, the dinosaur death hole.

00:11:45Guest:Right, yeah, just something that's, you know, ebony Jurassic peak into the future.

00:11:52Marc:Anything but pit of tar.

00:11:55Marc:Yeah, make it appealing to the kids.

00:11:58Marc:What are they going to think with a tar pit?

00:12:00Marc:Who cares?

00:12:01Guest:Maybe it's that Smucker's thing.

00:12:04Guest:Remember the old Smucker's Jelly commercial?

00:12:07Guest:With a name like La Brea Tar Pit, you've got to be good.

00:12:10Marc:Yeah, maybe.

00:12:12Marc:It's a stretch.

00:12:14Marc:It's amazing that your recollection of the Smucker's commercial.

00:12:16Marc:I can't remember that at all.

00:12:18Guest:They used to do a commercial, which I always thought was clever when I was nine.

00:12:23Guest:Our company is named Smuckers.

00:12:26Marc:Right.

00:12:26Guest:And that's a horrible name for a jelly company.

00:12:29Marc:Not if you tell them it's the best.

00:12:31Guest:But if we say, you know how good you have to be?

00:12:35Guest:We're essentially the dick butt kiss.

00:12:38Marc:Yeah, to sell this stuff under this shitty name for as long as we've been doing it, you know what kind of perseverance that takes?

00:12:46Guest:It's a little something called intestinal fortitude.

00:12:49Guest:Yeah.

00:12:50Guest:That Mr. Knott's Berry Farm clearly does not possess.

00:12:54Marc:You know it's got to be good because if people still buy it with this fucked up name, it's got to be good.

00:13:00Guest:The reason we've won every jam war since the turn of the 18th century is because of this kind of fortitude.

00:13:07Marc:To try to transcend this miserable fucking name that we're under contract to keep because the guy who invented it, who is dead now, made us keep it.

00:13:15Guest:You understand this would be like a car manufacturer, and the last name of the guy was Shitmobile.

00:13:21Guest:You understand that, right?

00:13:24Marc:Yeah, I got a 2012 Shitmobile in my driveway.

00:13:28Guest:Oh, you got cloth or leather interior?

00:13:31Marc:It's top of the line.

00:13:32Marc:They make the best car in the market, the Shitmobile, for years running.

00:13:35Marc:So, look, I was looking at my schedule, and I'm open on the 21st, Adam.

00:13:40Guest:Oh, yeah, I can get you a comp ticket.

00:13:44Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:13:44Marc:Okay.

00:13:45Marc:Well, that's good.

00:13:46Marc:All right.

00:13:47Marc:Well, that'd be nice.

00:13:48Marc:Like backstage or just a good seat?

00:13:52Guest:Just something on the loge.

00:13:54Marc:Oh, good.

00:13:54Marc:All right.

00:13:54Marc:So now, would it be a problem if I felt like it maybe chimed in from the audience or anything?

00:14:00Guest:You know, I'd prefer if you've got to talk to just kind of keep it to a text form.

00:14:05Guest:You know, I will be doing a show.

00:14:06Marc:All right.

00:14:07Marc:You know, maybe I'll do that.

00:14:08Marc:But, you know, I'll tell my friends to come down.

00:14:12Marc:But, you know, really, if you – all right.

00:14:14Marc:All right.

00:14:15Marc:Comp ticket's fine.

00:14:16Marc:That's fine.

00:14:17Guest:Just one.

00:14:17Guest:Just one comp.

00:14:18Guest:All right.

00:14:19Guest:I got to tell you a funny comp.

00:14:22Guest:Yeah.

00:14:22Guest:So 21st will turn.

00:14:24Guest:Yeah.

00:14:25Guest:Come on down people.

00:14:27Guest:LA such a tough draw, man.

00:14:28Guest:It is all the love I can get.

00:14:30Guest:Um,

00:14:32Guest:A funny comp ticket story is I was going to go see my buddy David Allen Greer doing a play called Race.

00:14:42Guest:Dag.

00:14:43Guest:Dag.

00:14:44Guest:I was going to go see Dag, who's a great guy out in New York.

00:14:49Guest:Yeah.

00:14:50Guest:And he's starring in this play, gets nominated for a Tony the whole nine yards, and I was just like, yeah, if you're in town, come see the play.

00:14:58Guest:And I was like, all right.

00:14:59Guest:And I said –

00:15:00Guest:yeah, I'm coming out.

00:15:02Guest:I might bring my buddy John Bynes, but I don't know, but maybe not.

00:15:07Guest:I don't know what his schedule is.

00:15:08Guest:And he's like, yeah, I'll leave you a ticket.

00:15:10Guest:And I was like, yeah, I think I might need two tickets.

00:15:13Guest:And he's like, yeah, and something started laughing.

00:15:16Guest:And then when I got down there, I brought this guy with me, and sure enough, there was just one ticket waiting, and that was my comp ticket, because they only give David one comp ticket

00:15:29Guest:they only give David one comp ticket per show, which is insane.

00:15:34Guest:I don't know why they don't give you two a show when it's just four people on the show, and you're one of the stars, and you're nominated.

00:15:40Guest:But anyway, I had to pay like $131 for my friend's ticket.

00:15:45Guest:It was one of those things where it's like, eh, maybe I'll come, maybe I won't.

00:15:48Guest:I don't know.

00:15:49Guest:Last minute he gave a, eh, why not?

00:15:51Guest:And next thing you know, I'm paying $131 so he can sort of come to this show, and it's complete.

00:15:56Guest:Now my comp ticket is null and void.

00:16:00Marc:Did it become a racial issue?

00:16:02Guest:Well, the racial issue was this, and this is a surreal moment.

00:16:09Guest:The play is called Race, and it explores many facets of racism.

00:16:17Guest:And the show, for some reason, starts at 7 p.m.

00:16:23Guest:I don't know why they didn't pick 8 p.m.,

00:16:25Guest:or better, 8.15, but they pick 7.

00:16:28Guest:And anyone who goes to those shows know, when they say they start at 7, it's curtains up at 7.01.

00:16:34Marc:That's right.

00:16:35Guest:Like, it's 7 and 25 seconds, the lights go down and the curtain comes up.

00:16:41Guest:And since it's a play that is, you know...

00:16:45Guest:Fairly African-American-centric.

00:16:47Marc:I know where this is going.

00:16:49Guest:There's a fair amount of folks in the crowd who are darker than I am.

00:16:54Guest:Right.

00:16:54Guest:And at a certain point, David Allen Greer, about 710 to 712, is delivering this speech out to the fourth wall that basically says, so you think you have preconceived notions of my people.

00:17:10Guest:You think you know stereotypes.

00:17:12Guest:But what is a stereotype after all?

00:17:14Guest:Then all of a sudden, a black couple would come down the alley 15 minutes late and make their way in front of me.

00:17:20Guest:He did 10 minutes on stereotypes.

00:17:24Guest:All I did was sit there and count the number of black people that showed up late.

00:17:28Guest:I realized I was in my own little race play as he was...

00:17:32Guest:doing his race soliloquy.

00:17:34Guest:And I was like, would a white couple please show up late so I could somehow break this crazy racist streak I'm on here?

00:17:42Guest:I was having a surreal out-of-body sort of Klan-esque moment while Dag is literally standing in front of me spitting on me.

00:17:50Guest:asking me to forget every racial stereotype I've ever learned.

00:17:55Guest:I'm counting the number of late black folks that are coming into the theater.

00:17:59Guest:Did anyone laugh?

00:18:01Guest:Nobody laughed.

00:18:03Guest:I can't imagine I was the only one who was seeing this.

00:18:07Guest:This slow parade of party black folks coming into the 7 o'clock show at 718.

00:18:16Marc:That is funny, man.

00:18:18Guest:Under the backdrop of, you think you know me because my skin is dark.

00:18:24Guest:You have stereotypes.

00:18:26Guest:Forget them all.

00:18:27Guest:Oh, sorry.

00:18:27Guest:Let me move my legs.

00:18:28Guest:Let me get up.

00:18:29Guest:There you go.

00:18:30Guest:Sorry.

00:18:30Guest:Sorry, anyway.

00:18:31Marc:All right, well, look, okay, so May 21st at the Wiltern, they can get tickets at your site and at the Wiltern, too?

00:18:37Guest:Yeah, I think they can go to Live Nation or they can go to AdamCarolla.com.

00:18:41Guest:All right, man, well, I'll be down there in the audience.

00:18:44Guest:Hey, and Mark, thanks so much for coming up on stage.

00:18:47Guest:People seem to really dig it.

00:18:49Marc:Okay, well, I'll see you up there.

00:18:50Marc:We should definitely do it more often.

00:18:52Marc:Yeah, on the 21st, I'll be down there.

00:18:54Guest:Yeah, I'll see you at the Lowe's.

00:18:56Marc:Thanks, Adam.

00:18:57Guest:Thanks, Mike.

00:18:58Marc:All right.

00:18:59Marc:Well, that was nice.

00:19:00Marc:I guess I'll get to go to that show and watch it.

00:19:05Marc:Oh, man.

00:19:07Marc:All right.

00:19:12Guest:If I'm too low, you go like this, or if I'm yelling, go like that.

00:19:16Marc:I can just do it with my knobs.

00:19:17Guest:Oh, you got your knobs.

00:19:19Marc:I got knobs here that I can work with.

00:19:21Guest:I got knobs.

00:19:21Guest:That jingle jangle jingle.

00:19:23Marc:Sure.

00:19:23Marc:I don't have any effects like that.

00:19:26Marc:We're not doing full-on morning radio or afternoon radio.

00:19:30Marc:There's no noises.

00:19:31Guest:I'm shutting my phone off.

00:19:33Marc:I should do the same.

00:19:34Marc:I rarely do that.

00:19:35Guest:You mean you just take a buzzing thing?

00:19:36Marc:We're not taking phone calls.

00:19:39Marc:No, but people have.

00:19:41Marc:But a lot of times I forget to shut my own phone off on my own podcast.

00:19:46Marc:In the garage with me now, the co-creator of Everybody Loves Raymond.

00:19:52Marc:And the director and star of Exporting Raymond, Phil Rosenthal.

00:19:59Marc:Hello.

00:20:00Marc:Nice to have you here.

00:20:01Marc:Now, let me ask you, did we ever meet?

00:20:04Marc:For some reason, did I take a meeting with you pre-Raymond when I was at a deal of some kind?

00:20:10Marc:Is that possible?

00:20:11Marc:Do you have any recollection of that?

00:20:12Marc:no all right well then it is possible but you know i'm very old now so it could be are you how old are you not much older than me if you are 51 really you look well i looked i do look good you know you did but inside i'm 87 sure i i i can see from our somatic background and also from your performance in exporting raymond that you were probably always roughly 75 to 82 years old you got it

00:20:37Marc:There's something about the Semitic wiring that, for some reason, there are some of us that just assume an old man's posture from junior high on.

00:20:48Guest:The hook is implied.

00:20:50Marc:That's right.

00:20:50Marc:And I don't know where that comes from.

00:20:52Marc:I guess it's an aspiration.

00:20:53Marc:I don't know why we would aspire to that.

00:20:54Guest:I think from your father and your father's father.

00:20:57Marc:But my father's a manic little bull.

00:20:59Marc:He's not a whiny thing.

00:21:00Marc:No, he's not.

00:21:01Marc:He's not a...

00:21:02Marc:traditionally uh jewy so he had to survive then he had to yeah there was something he had some scrap in him he had a little bit a little yeah we we call it bipolar but uh scrap is another way to look you can frame it however you want well i i watched the movie and uh before we get to the movie which is a documentary about about phil's journey to russia in order to get them

00:21:29Marc:the ball rolling with their version of Everybody Loves Raymond.

00:21:33Marc:I have not had somebody in the garage who can really sort of walk us through the process of creating and maintaining a hit sitcom, which I think is interesting because I've had a couple of opportunities.

00:21:49Marc:I've had a couple of deals.

00:21:50Marc:Nothing ever made it to pilot, but I've done a couple of scripts.

00:21:52Marc:But how did you start?

00:21:54Marc:You were a writer.

00:21:55Guest:Actually, I started as an actor because when I was a kid and I watched a lot of TV, I didn't know there was such a thing as writing and directing and producing.

00:22:02Guest:I just watched The Honeymooners, and I wanted to be them.

00:22:05Guest:So I just wanted to be funny on stage.

00:22:07Guest:I was a big star in high school and college, and then I came out with a theater degree into New York City, and nobody was jumping up and down to have me, really.

00:22:16Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:22:17Marc:Well, that's interesting.

00:22:18Marc:What college did you go to?

00:22:19Marc:Hofstra.

00:22:20Marc:And you did not try stand-up?

00:22:22Guest:I tried it one night.

00:22:24Marc:Uh-huh.

00:22:24Guest:Yeah.

00:22:25Guest:And it was terrifying.

00:22:27Guest:I actually did okay when I listened to the tape.

00:22:29Guest:I brought my little Panasonic tape recorder and taped it.

00:22:31Guest:Yeah.

00:22:31Guest:And I got laughs.

00:22:33Guest:I never would have known that standing there doing the thing.

00:22:36Marc:Uh-huh.

00:22:37Guest:It was mortifying to me.

00:22:38Guest:I said, the reward...

00:22:41Marc:not enough not enough for the for the surus that you're gonna surus yeah please get your yiddish to english dictionaries i think you know i know even if you don't know but even if you don't know you know surus has that feeling yeah yeah i i think you're probably the last generation that is actively uh sort of entrenched in uh in in that second generation jew thing there are words that are english words that sound yiddish too like laser disc laser disc if you say it like that

00:23:09Guest:How else do you say it?

00:23:10Marc:Laser disc.

00:23:11Guest:Well, if you say it like that.

00:23:13Marc:And you know what?

00:23:15Marc:They don't exist anymore.

00:23:17Guest:You're right.

00:23:17Marc:Me neither do I. So those days are over.

00:23:20Marc:Neither does my kind.

00:23:21Marc:No, no, that's not true.

00:23:23Guest:Look at the name of this book you have laying out for people.

00:23:25Marc:It just says cunt on it.

00:23:27Marc:Somebody sent that to me, I think, in reaction to it.

00:23:29Guest:I'm not a nice person.

00:23:30Marc:No, I think it's a celebration of cunt, Phil.

00:23:33Marc:I don't think they'd write a big book like that in a negative way.

00:23:36Marc:It's got a flower.

00:23:37Marc:It says cunt on it.

00:23:39Guest:I'll be taking it.

00:23:40Marc:Oh, yeah, you might.

00:23:41Marc:It might help you out.

00:23:42Marc:I don't want to even open up that box of worms.

00:23:45Marc:So you end up in Hollywood as an actor?

00:23:47Marc:Is that what you're telling me?

00:23:49Guest:Actually, no.

00:23:50Guest:Some friends of mine in New York were in the same boat, actors who can't get work.

00:23:54Guest:Right.

00:23:54Guest:So we wrote a show for ourselves to be in.

00:23:57Guest:That became successful.

00:23:58Guest:At the same time, a fellow named Alan Kirshenbaum came to my house with a big blue shiny box.

00:24:03Guest:You know him.

00:24:03Marc:Freddie Roman's son.

00:24:04Marc:Exactly.

00:24:05Marc:What was his big show?

00:24:07Marc:Oh.

00:24:07Guest:yes dear yes dear okay but he before that way before that he he uh was a writer on his own and he came to my house with this metal box in new york box in new york to my apartment and it was uh what's that he says it's a word processor and we wrote a screenplay together and sold it i mean sold it for i think it was seventy thousand dollars in 1987 yeah this was it's a lot of money

00:24:33Guest:A lot of money.

00:24:34Guest:We split it, but it was still, I went from eating tuna fish for dinner to eating whatever I wanted.

00:24:40Guest:And I said, hey, maybe I like eating things other than tuna fish.

00:24:44Marc:Sure, why not?

00:24:45Guest:So that was the transition.

00:24:47Marc:And then because of that screenplay, you guys moved out here.

00:24:49Marc:Was he your writing partner?

00:24:50Guest:He wasn't.

00:24:51Guest:He didn't need a partner.

00:24:52Guest:I did, though.

00:24:53Guest:So I signed up with a guy whose plays I had been in at Columbia Grad School.

00:24:57Guest:His name is Oliver Goldstick.

00:24:59Guest:He now runs a show called Pretty Little Liars, that my 13-year-old daughter loves.

00:25:05Marc:Well, that's a good market, that 13-year-old daughter market.

00:25:07Guest:So he's a great guy.

00:25:08Guest:And, you know, our first show that we got on was a show called A Family for Joe.

00:25:14Guest:And this was a Robert Mitchum sitcom.

00:25:17Marc:Really?

00:25:17Marc:So you work with Bob Mitchum?

00:25:18Marc:I just watched Out of the Past, which is one of my favorite movies.

00:25:21Guest:So great.

00:25:22Guest:I have to tell you, this would have horrified you.

00:25:24Guest:When I came, I was in my late 20s.

00:25:27Guest:I was the youngest guy on staff.

00:25:29Guest:And the rest of the staff, not including my partner, but the rest of the staff, they were all older than me, they honestly didn't really know who Robert Mitchum was.

00:25:37Guest:Really?

00:25:37Guest:How is that possible?

00:25:38Guest:I don't know.

00:25:39Guest:They kind of heard the name, but I said, have you ever seen him in anything?

00:25:42Guest:No.

00:25:42Guest:I said, you've got to come over, come to my apartment and watch...

00:25:46Guest:Night of the Hunter.

00:25:47Guest:Yeah.

00:25:48Guest:Okay, so we got a video cassette of Night of the Hunter, we played it for them, and these people laughed at the movie.

00:25:53Marc:Yeah.

00:25:54Marc:Oh, because it was too over the top for them?

00:25:56Guest:You know, it has a surrealistic quality.

00:25:58Marc:Well, it's a little... There's some overly dramatic... Charles Watton directed that, I believe.

00:26:02Guest:Exactly.

00:26:03Guest:Yeah, it's an intense movie.

00:26:03Guest:And the only movie directed by him, the only script by James Agee.

00:26:06Marc:Yeah.

00:26:07Guest:This is an undeniable classic.

00:26:09Guest:Oh, absolutely.

00:26:10Guest:It's a gorgeous movie.

00:26:11Guest:Yeah.

00:26:11Guest:Scary, wonderful, poetic...

00:26:14Marc:And that's what... Love, hate on his knuckles, right?

00:26:16Guest:Exactly.

00:26:17Guest:That's where people would... The iconography of it.

00:26:19Guest:Yeah.

00:26:19Guest:Okay.

00:26:20Guest:So these people laugh at it.

00:26:21Guest:And I just remember thinking right there, oh, I'm in a world of shit.

00:26:25Marc:Yeah.

00:26:26Marc:These people have no hearts.

00:26:27Guest:No, but I mean, this was my introduction to Hollywood.

00:26:30Marc:Uh-huh.

00:26:31Marc:Right?

00:26:31Guest:Yeah.

00:26:32Guest:Where you think the history of Hollywood will be most revered, but it's not.

00:26:35Marc:So now, was that show on the air?

00:26:38Guest:Yes.

00:26:38Marc:It was a sitcom?

00:26:39Marc:Seven episodes.

00:26:40Marc:Oh, and he played what, the father or something?

00:26:42Guest:He played a homeless man.

00:26:43Guest:It was a TV movie first.

00:26:45Guest:It was a TV movie where he plays a homeless man who lives in a refrigerator box in Central Park.

00:26:50Guest:Stay with me.

00:26:50Guest:What year is this?

00:26:52Guest:1989.

00:26:52Guest:Okay.

00:26:53Guest:Three homeless kids come up to him and say, will you pretend to be our grandpa in exchange for which you can live in a house?

00:27:00Mm-hmm.

00:27:00Guest:So he takes the gig.

00:27:01Marc:So it's a squatter house or just an abandoned house.

00:27:05Guest:It's their house.

00:27:06Marc:Okay.

00:27:06Guest:And they say, you can't kick us out of the house and put us in foster homes because here's grandpa.

00:27:10Guest:I get it.

00:27:11Guest:Okay.

00:27:11Guest:So maybe, by the way, maybe this could work if Robert Mitchum hates kids and dogs.

00:27:17Guest:Maybe that's funny.

00:27:18Guest:Right.

00:27:19Guest:But they don't play it like that.

00:27:20Guest:The very first moment of the very first episode, there's a sitcom stage of a family house.

00:27:26Guest:Yeah.

00:27:26Guest:Very nice.

00:27:27Guest:Yeah.

00:27:27Guest:Very clean.

00:27:28Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:27:28Guest:Ding dong, you hear offstage.

00:27:30Guest:I'll get it.

00:27:31Guest:It's Robert Mitchum.

00:27:33Guest:Kitchen door swings open.

00:27:34Guest:In comes Robert Mitchum wearing an apron and holding a vase of flowers.

00:27:39Guest:He puts it on the kitchen table on his way to the door, adjusts the flowers, and crosses to the door.

00:27:44Guest:The show is dead right there.

00:27:46Marc:Because it's against hype.

00:27:48Guest:Well, they've cut his balls off in the first moment.

00:27:51Marc:Right.

00:27:52Guest:And that was the end.

00:27:52Guest:And the excuse is...

00:27:54Guest:he he won't be likable otherwise uh-huh so likable likable like already this all the time sure uh it's the death of everything sure so now working with bob mitchum though uh what kind of guy was he at that point he was a great guy and he had great stories and was very accessible if you knew who the hell he was yeah because he was one of the first guys to get busted publicly for pot yes he was cool yeah very cool

00:28:17Marc:And a great actor.

00:28:18Guest:He made a movie called Heaven Knows Mr. Allison.

00:28:21Guest:You know that movie?

00:28:22Marc:No, I don't know that movie.

00:28:23Guest:He plays like a Marine who's stranded on an island with a nun.

00:28:28Guest:Okay?

00:28:28Guest:Deborah Kerr is the nun.

00:28:29Guest:Oh, that sounds good.

00:28:30Guest:Remember Deborah Kerr?

00:28:30Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:31Guest:Watch this movie.

00:28:32Guest:It's a great movie.

00:28:32Marc:Yeah, he had such a walk.

00:28:35Marc:Mitchum did.

00:28:36Marc:He had this thing.

00:28:38Marc:He was so cool.

00:28:39Marc:Just by coincidence, I'm flying on Air Canada.

00:28:42Marc:And for some reason, they had Out of the Past and their classics on the in-flight entertainment.

00:28:46Marc:Out of all the film noirs.

00:28:47Marc:I mean, that's sort of an offbeat.

00:28:48Marc:It is.

00:28:49Marc:But it seems like a little offbeat to me.

00:28:51Marc:It's a classic.

00:28:53Marc:But is it on the big classic list?

00:28:54Marc:Maybe it is.

00:28:55Marc:What am I talking about?

00:28:55Guest:I think it is for people who know anything.

00:28:57Guest:Right, right.

00:28:58Guest:It's a wonderful movie.

00:28:59Marc:All right, so you do that gig, and then this is the late 80s, and then you... And then I go from that to Baby Talk.

00:29:06Guest:Baby Talk is the... Look, you work where you can.

00:29:08Marc:Is that the one with the faces, the talking?

00:29:11Marc:No, no, no, no, that's not... That wasn't Michael Saltzman.

00:29:13Guest:This was the TV version of Look Who's Talking, the movie with John Travolta and Kirstie Alley.

00:29:18Guest:And Bruce Willis did the voice of the baby.

00:29:21Guest:So you know how that movie was done?

00:29:24Guest:They take hours and hours and hours of real baby footage.

00:29:26Guest:Then they bring in writers who watch it.

00:29:28Guest:And when it looks like the baby might be thinking something, they write a line for Bruce Willis to do a voiceover.

00:29:33Guest:Got it.

00:29:33Guest:Okay, the way we were going to do our TV show, according to the executive producer,

00:29:37Guest:We're going to write scripts and the babies will perform them live in front of a studio audience every Friday night.

00:29:42Guest:Stop it.

00:29:43Guest:You're exaggerating.

00:29:44Guest:Not one bit.

00:29:45Guest:He fired the babies because they were crying.

00:29:50Guest:I said, well, what did you expect?

00:29:52Guest:He said, this is just, this is beyond.

00:29:55Guest:This is unprofessional now.

00:29:56Marc:Did he have kids?

00:29:57Marc:Yes.

00:29:59Marc:Come on.

00:30:00Marc:Serious.

00:30:00Marc:All right.

00:30:01Marc:But that stayed on the air for a season, didn't it?

00:30:03Marc:A season or two.

00:30:04Marc:You know who came from that show?

00:30:05Guest:George Clooney.

00:30:06Marc:Is that really?

00:30:07Guest:That was his first thing?

00:30:08Marc:He was the father?

00:30:09Guest:No, he was the John Travolta part.

00:30:13Marc:The single one.

00:30:15Guest:I'm acting like I've seen the movie.

00:30:17Guest:No, he hated doing it, and the executive producer hated him doing it, and they fought like crazy.

00:30:26Guest:George has written about this even.

00:30:28Guest:But he he got very upset.

00:30:31Guest:And finally, the executive producer said, you know what?

00:30:33Guest:He can go if he wants.

00:30:34Guest:Let him do a pilot for the rest of his life for every year.

00:30:37Guest:That'll be his career.

00:30:38Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:39Marc:He's going to be exiled to Siberia.

00:30:41Marc:He's got nothing that kid.

00:30:43Marc:I love the arrogance of executive.

00:30:44Marc:Well, now when I see George Clooney, we hug each other and say we survived baby talk.

00:30:50Marc:You certainly both did in a very big way.

00:30:53Guest:I did finally get on a show called Coach, which people had heard of.

00:30:57Guest:And you were with staff?

00:30:59Guest:A writer on that.

00:31:00Guest:And during my last year on that show, I got this tape of a comedian that had been struggling for 12 years.

00:31:07Marc:I knew him.

00:31:07Marc:I mean, I knew him at the cellar.

00:31:09Marc:I've interviewed him here with Mike.

00:31:10Guest:Did he cry?

00:31:12Marc:No, but he was pretty candid.

00:31:14Marc:Okay, good.

00:31:14Marc:Yeah, he's a very sweet guy.

00:31:15Marc:He was always very sweet to me coming up.

00:31:17Guest:He's a great guy.

00:31:18Marc:Yeah, I knew him at the cellar.

00:31:19Marc:But you were basically under contract, or you had a deal.

00:31:22Guest:No, neither of us did.

00:31:23Guest:The way it works sometimes is the agent of the comedian will send the comedian's tape around looking for the writer,

00:31:30Guest:To create the show for the comedian.

00:31:32Guest:So the writers are sending him.

00:31:34Guest:And so our paths crossed.

00:31:37Guest:We met at Arts Deli on Ventura.

00:31:39Guest:And, you know, he started telling me about his family.

00:31:41Guest:Not because he thought that would make a show.

00:31:44Guest:We were just talking.

00:31:45Guest:Like, I would talk to you.

00:31:46Guest:Tell me about yourself.

00:31:47Guest:A general meeting.

00:31:48Marc:As they call them.

00:31:49Guest:Yes, and he goes, I have twin boys, an older daughter.

00:31:52Guest:I have parents who live close by.

00:31:53Guest:I have an older brother that lives with him who's kind of jealous of me.

00:31:56Guest:He's a police sergeant.

00:31:57Guest:He saw my Cable Ace Award, and he said it never ends for Raymond.

00:32:01Guest:Everybody loves Raymond.

00:32:02Guest:I said, well, it doesn't seem like there's anything there we can use.

00:32:05Marc:Yeah, yeah, it sounds terrible.

00:32:06Guest:I'm sorry we took this meeting.

00:32:07Marc:That's right.

00:32:08Marc:Who buys lunch?

00:32:09Marc:See you next time.

00:32:10Guest:But no, I thought, why not?

00:32:12Guest:He never acted before.

00:32:13Guest:Why not surround him with what he knows?

00:32:14Guest:And that seems like as good a premise as any.

00:32:17Guest:For something, it's execution anyway.

00:32:19Marc:Okay.

00:32:19Guest:So from there- What I didn't know about his family, I filled in with the personalities of my family.

00:32:24Marc:Right.

00:32:24Marc:Yeah.

00:32:25Marc:And you can see that in the documentary, certainly.

00:32:27Marc:So from there, we go, you say, okay, let's do this.

00:32:31Marc:Yeah.

00:32:31Marc:And you get a network behind you.

00:32:33Guest:Yeah.

00:32:33Guest:And- And we have to cast the rest of the parts.

00:32:35Guest:But you got to write the script.

00:32:37Guest:I wrote the script.

00:32:38Guest:Okay.

00:32:39Guest:And then you're lucky.

00:32:42Guest:Look, you're lucky if anyone at the network even likes it.

00:32:45Marc:Well, just to get it from script to actually be putting it on stage is a big jump.

00:32:49Guest:There's so many steps to go through.

00:32:51Guest:It's ridiculous.

00:32:51Guest:Every part has to be cast or they don't do it.

00:32:54Guest:Right.

00:32:54Guest:They don't want to take chances.

00:32:55Guest:It's money.

00:32:56Marc:So you've got a pilot deal.

00:32:57Guest:Get a pilot made.

00:32:58Marc:Right.

00:32:59Marc:But you've got the deal to make the pilot.

00:33:01Guest:Exactly.

00:33:01Marc:So now you're casting.

00:33:02Marc:Yes.

00:33:02Marc:And Jesus Christ, did you get lucky.

00:33:04Guest:I'll say lucky is the exact right word.

00:33:06Guest:What else is it?

00:33:07Marc:Well, I mean, because to me, it's just a matter, you know, with availability, with people who can or can't do it, you know, with chemistry going.

00:33:14Marc:But I mean, the undeniable thing about that ensemble was they certainly grew together as a family.

00:33:19Marc:Now, were there any obstacles?

00:33:21Marc:In casting?

00:33:23Guest:Oh, yes.

00:33:24Marc:Like what?

00:33:24Guest:Yes.

00:33:25Guest:I had heard that the head of the network wanted a certain actress.

00:33:31Guest:For the wife?

00:33:31Guest:Yeah.

00:33:33Guest:Who?

00:33:33Guest:Well, I can't say the name, but it was a blonde, wispy actress.

00:33:37Guest:It was wrong.

00:33:38Guest:So wrong that I was going to quit the show over it.

00:33:40Guest:And finally, they let me cast someone that I found that they could then believe in, too.

00:33:46Guest:And her name was Patty Heaton.

00:33:47Marc:Patty Heaton.

00:33:48Guest:And she was one of the best wives ever on TV, I think.

00:33:50Marc:Well, it's interesting about that character is that as I was watching the documentary, you know, in your struggle, and we'll get to Rush in a second, was that she was truly angry in some respects.

00:34:06Marc:That there was a depth to her character around her.

00:34:13Marc:I've had enough.

00:34:14Marc:Yes.

00:34:15Marc:That was genuine.

00:34:16Guest:And if you've been married, you've seen that before.

00:34:18Marc:Well, yeah, I didn't tolerate it.

00:34:22Marc:And that's why I'm twice divorced.

00:34:23Marc:But nonetheless, but I was like... I didn't mean to say you had to stay.

00:34:30Guest:I just meant you've seen it before.

00:34:32Marc:Right, but I'm usually the angry one.

00:34:33Marc:I wish I'd let them be angry more.

00:34:36Marc:But what was interesting to me is that I had never really identified just how genuine the anger was.

00:34:42Marc:That the comedy played off...

00:34:44Marc:Ray's incredible malleability.

00:34:47Marc:It's hard to explain the dynamic there because it wasn't a straight man kind of thing.

00:34:55Guest:No, it's husband-wife thing.

00:34:57Marc:Right.

00:34:58Marc:I think.

00:34:59Guest:The husband tries to get away with what he can get away with.

00:35:01Guest:In many respects, the husband never grew up and marries his mother.

00:35:04Guest:Right, man-child.

00:35:05Guest:Yeah.

00:35:06Guest:Yeah.

00:35:06Guest:And the woman usually, and this is a generalization, but it seems to be relatable, the woman is frustrated that this guy thinks I'm his mother.

00:35:17Marc:Yeah.

00:35:17Guest:I'm not your mother, goddammit.

00:35:18Marc:Right, and the mother's across the street.

00:35:20Marc:Exactly.

00:35:20Marc:So that worked out.

00:35:21Guest:So the worst of both.

00:35:22Marc:But but in theory, you know, because, you know, in in in as we move towards Russia here, that your sense of of of of family and of marriages on television.

00:35:34Marc:Yeah.

00:35:34Marc:Like you just said, you know, you don't want to generalize.

00:35:36Marc:But coming into this, did those things evolve or were you pretty set on like, you know, this is this?

00:35:41Guest:We're just writing what we know.

00:35:43Guest:We're only writing specifically.

00:35:44Guest:We're not writing for a general audience at all because I've worked on enough shows where they try to hit everybody and they miss everybody.

00:35:51Guest:So what I learned was, quite by accident, was that when you write as specifically as you can, therein lies the universality.

00:35:59Guest:Because we all deal in specifics.

00:36:02Guest:So even if yours isn't mine...

00:36:04Guest:There's a specific thing that I might look at the thread on this shirt and it bothers me.

00:36:09Guest:Yeah.

00:36:09Guest:And I'm going to keep pulling at it.

00:36:10Guest:Right.

00:36:11Guest:And you understand what that kind of annoyance is because you have something like that.

00:36:15Guest:Sure.

00:36:16Guest:Some OCD craziness.

00:36:17Marc:Or else I can look at you as a guy that has that.

00:36:20Marc:Yes.

00:36:20Marc:I mean, that's a comic character, too.

00:36:22Marc:You may not have to relate to it to understand the comic.

00:36:24Guest:But I think it's deeper when you do relate to it.

00:36:26Guest:And I do think, you know, like in the pilot, I've made this thing about Fruit of the Month Club that I gave my parents Fruit of the Month and I freaked out because it was too much fruit.

00:36:34Guest:Yeah.

00:36:35Guest:And that much fruit is coming.

00:36:36Guest:That really happened.

00:36:37Guest:So I put in the pilot thinking the audience will look at it just as you said is look at that crazy thing.

00:36:41Guest:Look at those crazy people.

00:36:42Guest:No, I accidentally hit a nerve.

00:36:45Guest:You can't give your parents a gift without it blowing up in your face.

00:36:49Guest:And to this day, how many years later, I still get letters from people like, that happened to me with the fruit.

00:36:54Marc:Sure.

00:36:54Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:55Marc:It's funny.

00:36:56Guest:It's crazy.

00:36:56Guest:What am I supposed to do?

00:36:57Guest:So I'm lucky that everyone else is crazy.

00:36:59Marc:Yeah.

00:37:00Marc:Well, I agree.

00:37:01Marc:Now, let's just get to the specifics of...

00:37:06Marc:You shot how many American, America, Everybody Loves Raymond?

00:37:10Marc:210.

00:37:11Guest:Nine years.

00:37:12Marc:Nine years.

00:37:13Marc:How many seasons is that?

00:37:14Guest:Nine seasons.

00:37:15Marc:It'd be nine seasons.

00:37:16Marc:So that's how many episodes a year?

00:37:18Guest:Anywhere between 22 and 26.

00:37:22Guest:The last season was 16 because we ran out of ideas.

00:37:25Marc:But it took a while.

00:37:27Marc:I mean, you did all right.

00:37:28Marc:Did okay.

00:37:29Guest:210 of anything is a big number.

00:37:32Marc:Well, to syndicate, you need 100, right?

00:37:35Guest:And that's 210 fights you have to have with your wife to get an episode out of it.

00:37:38Marc:I bet.

00:37:39Marc:So how's your marriage holding up?

00:37:40Guest:It's okay, but if we kept going, who knows?

00:37:42Guest:Everybody would have been in trouble.

00:37:43Guest:And in California, that's half.

00:37:44Marc:Okay.

00:37:45Guest:I'm sure you know, Mr. Twice.

00:37:47Marc:I do.

00:37:48Marc:Yeah, I know it's half.

00:37:49Marc:Yeah, the first one.

00:37:50Marc:I didn't have much either time, Phil.

00:37:52Marc:I'm in my garage.

00:37:54Marc:So we're operating at different levels of show business here.

00:38:01Marc:So now that now without saying, you know, numbers, I mean, that's a tremendous amount of money, you know, with syndication, with, you know, with, you know, the way you probably make you're making money right now.

00:38:13Marc:Somebody's watching.

00:38:13Marc:Everybody loves Raymond right now.

00:38:16Guest:Okay.

00:38:16Marc:Yeah.

00:38:17Marc:So it's a tremendous success.

00:38:19Marc:It's the holy grail of television.

00:38:21Guest:Luck, luck, and more luck.

00:38:22Marc:Well, yeah.

00:38:23Marc:Whatever the case, it's a huge product.

00:38:26Marc:And if I could just ask a question, as we enter into talking about the documentary, now your parents live in the house you grew up in.

00:38:34Guest:Exactly.

00:38:34Marc:Did you offer them to get another house?

00:38:36Guest:What's wrong with that house?

00:38:37Marc:There's nothing wrong with that house.

00:38:38Marc:I mean, was there a point where you said, do you want to live somewhere else?

00:38:41Guest:They would never consider it.

00:38:43Guest:Okay.

00:38:44Guest:They would even think the question is ridiculous.

00:38:46Guest:I did buy my dad a car.

00:38:48Guest:Okay.

00:38:48Guest:And that was great.

00:38:50Guest:Yeah, did you love it?

00:38:51Guest:I did the whole thing like you've seen a commercial with a ribbon on it.

00:38:54Guest:It's his birthday.

00:38:55Guest:Come out.

00:38:56Guest:We got you something.

00:38:56Guest:There it is.

00:38:57Guest:My mother comes down to the car, gets in, and drives off.

00:39:01Guest:His present.

00:39:02Guest:What kind of car was that?

00:39:03Marc:uh the the middle range lexus oh that's nice so that well that's very funny i mean there there is uh i'll tell you your your parents are very funny and i'm not an easy laugh show yeah uh all right so tell me how this works now that so you've been at the time you got the offer or that that sony uh who's i guess is your partner in this no sony never had anything to do with everybody loves raymond

00:39:26Marc:Okay, so they're an international syndicator.

00:39:30Guest:Exactly.

00:39:30Marc:Okay.

00:39:31Guest:But it didn't even start with the idea of doing the TV show over there.

00:39:34Guest:It started with a movie idea that Michael Linton, the head of Sony, had.

00:39:38Guest:He calls me in his office a few years ago and he goes, Sony invented the sitcom in Russia.

00:39:43Guest:The sitcom didn't exist in Russia until they brought The Nanny over there.

00:39:45Guest:Remember the show The Nanny with Fran Drescher?

00:39:47Guest:So they bring that over there.

00:39:49Guest:And he's telling me about the Russians who are migrating from different forms of entertainment to this new form, the sitcom.

00:39:56Guest:For instance, they come from soap operas.

00:39:59Guest:I said, why would they go from soap opera to sitcom?

00:40:01Guest:He said, because that's also a half hour.

00:40:03Guest:Right.

00:40:04Guest:That's it.

00:40:05Guest:Time.

00:40:05Guest:Just the time.

00:40:06Guest:You know what a half hour is?

00:40:07Guest:Yes.

00:40:08Guest:You now work over here.

00:40:09Guest:Yeah.

00:40:10Guest:They came from sketch shows, which is at least a little closer, and from the world of science.

00:40:14Guest:If you saw the movie, you see the head of comedy.

00:40:16Guest:He had worked with laser beams.

00:40:18Marc:Lasers, right.

00:40:19Guest:Okay.

00:40:20Guest:He goes, how would you like to go over, observe how we work with these people, and then come back and write a feature fictional film about a creator of a show who goes over to have a show translated?

00:40:29Guest:So I said, oh, that could be good, but if the situation really does exist and the people really do exist, why not bring the camera crew over and film what really happens?

00:40:37Guest:And he said, I love that idea.

00:40:39Guest:Would you be the guy?

00:40:41Guest:And I said, I want to make that movie.

00:40:42Guest:Yes.

00:40:42Guest:And he goes, make your movie, but go try Raymond over there.

00:40:46Guest:That's how it happened.

00:40:47Guest:So almost backwards.

00:40:48Marc:But was this a roundabout way to get him to do Raymond over there?

00:40:53Marc:If it is, he's like an evil genius.

00:40:55Marc:But, I mean, why wouldn't he have just said, we want to sell Raymond?

00:40:58Guest:He didn't own Raymond.

00:40:59Guest:I don't know how he got to that.

00:41:01Guest:Do you think really he had that in mind when he called me in his office?

00:41:04Marc:Well, I mean, they're obviously your partner in this deal now, right?

00:41:08Guest:Yes, and for future productions in different countries.

00:41:12Marc:Right.

00:41:12Marc:So, I mean, I don't know why he would think to appeal to you in that way as a means to get Raymond.

00:41:18Marc:But, I mean, clearly everyone's got a new business here.

00:41:22Guest:But it doesn't make sense.

00:41:23Guest:He should have just, I mean, he could have just come out and said it.

00:41:27Guest:And I probably would have said, sure.

00:41:29Guest:Yeah, right.

00:41:29Guest:I think he really thought that there was a movie, a feature comedy in a scripted version of what happened to me.

00:41:38Guest:Yeah.

00:41:38Guest:And of course, I'm so glad I didn't do that because I think I got something that you could not write.

00:41:43Marc:I agree with you.

00:41:44Marc:And I entered the experience of watching the film with a certain amount of apprehension as a comic and having known Ray and I didn't really know you.

00:41:53Marc:I didn't know what it was going to be.

00:41:55Marc:But what you ended up with is a fairly true documentary that explores a lot of things just coincidentally.

00:42:02Guest:Yes.

00:42:03Marc:So you go over there.

00:42:04Marc:Now, I'm sort of curious about the business end of this.

00:42:08Marc:Had they bought the pilot?

00:42:09Marc:You go over there to basically be a consultant.

00:42:12Guest:They are going to make a pilot.

00:42:13Guest:And that's what I'm consulting on, the making of a pilot.

00:42:16Guest:I don't want to say what happens at the end because that's the movie.

00:42:19Guest:No, okay, okay.

00:42:20Guest:That's our story.

00:42:23Guest:That's fine.

00:42:24Guest:But I don't even know if I was hired.

00:42:26Guest:I was asked to go over and it would be the first time that the creator of a show has gone over there to help.

00:42:32Marc:An American show.

00:42:33Guest:Yes.

00:42:33Guest:And since, by the way, The Nanny, before I even got there, they had done Married with Children.

00:42:38Guest:Very successful.

00:42:39Guest:Who's the Boss?

00:42:40Guest:Very successful.

00:42:41Marc:But no Americans went there as a representative of the show?

00:42:44Guest:No.

00:42:44Guest:They might have been American sitcom writers who were there to help, but never the creator of the show.

00:42:49Marc:Well, what you find is you go over there with this pilot script, and it's interesting because the nanny and married with children are very broad.

00:42:56Marc:They're burlesques in a way.

00:43:00Guest:Yes, and that fits in with the Russian style of comedy that had been on television.

00:43:03Guest:That's right.

00:43:03Marc:Sketch shows.

00:43:04Marc:Yeah, and you get over there and you're up against, immediately the first obstacle is something as simple as the costume designer.

00:43:12Guest:Yes, she raises her hand in the production meeting.

00:43:16Guest:I've just finished saying, I just think the show should be relatable to your audience, not my version.

00:43:22Guest:I want you to make your Russian version, but make it a typical Russian family so that your audience can relate to it.

00:43:28Guest:And this lady, very well dressed, very beautiful, lots of makeup, lots of hair, says, I think the show should be used to teach the Russian population about fashion.

00:43:37Marc:Now, what did you make of that in the sense of outside of, you know, what you think the show should look like in the way that they structure the TV network or whatever their version of it was?

00:43:49Marc:Like, I got the distinct sense, given her disposition, that no one had much vision collectively over there.

00:43:57Marc:In the sense of like no one was thinking in terms of what the show really is.

00:44:02Marc:It seemed like everybody sort of had their own agenda a little bit and they were set in their ways.

00:44:05Guest:It was their job.

00:44:07Guest:They had many jobs to do.

00:44:08Guest:This wasn't the only show they were working on.

00:44:11Guest:And this lady took it upon herself.

00:44:13Guest:To say, and I don't know what politically the situation is.

00:44:16Guest:I'm walking in blind to this thing.

00:44:18Guest:I don't expect the costume lady.

00:44:20Guest:And as a matter of fact, when she says that, I go, well, things are different here.

00:44:24Guest:It seems very democratic that the costume lady gets to say what her vision of the show is.

00:44:29Marc:And in retrospect, was it democratic or was it that there was no real order in place?

00:44:34Guest:In retrospect, she was a little crazy.

00:44:37Guest:Because the next costume lady that came in...

00:44:40Guest:Was perfectly normal no and totally got the fact but I didn't know that I thought maybe this is the Russian way It just shows you can never generalize right right But I mean here's this lady and I'm going along with it because I think that's how it is not that I agreed with her I'm always trying to explain my side of it and arguing with her but she's showing me the Deborah character the housewife in a beautiful cashmere sweater fancy pants and

00:45:04Guest:High heels, jewelry, cleaning the kitchen.

00:45:07Guest:I said, you understand she's cleaning the kitchen in this scene?

00:45:09Guest:She says, yes, but she's on television.

00:45:12Guest:I say, yes, but she doesn't know that she's on television.

00:45:16Guest:She thinks she's cleaning.

00:45:17Guest:So this was the argument.

00:45:19Guest:And I could not win with this lady.

00:45:22Guest:Not only that, but she would take me aside and say, since you're obviously not doing what you should with this show, I think you should make a show for me so I can teach the population about fashion.

00:45:32Marc:Oh, so she was nuts.

00:45:34Marc:Or Oprah.

00:45:35Marc:Yeah.

00:45:36Marc:Right?

00:45:36Marc:Well, what's become of her?

00:45:37Marc:Are you still friends?

00:45:38Guest:I love her.

00:45:39Guest:I love... I really do.

00:45:41Guest:I... You know, there's a break in the middle of the movie.

00:45:44Guest:They shut down production because the head of the network is no longer the head of the network.

00:45:48Guest:So production is shut down.

00:45:49Guest:I have to go home for 10 months.

00:45:51Guest:Just so happened if I was there in March, I had to go back in December because it wasn't quite cold enough, right?

00:45:55Guest:So now I have to go back.

00:45:56Guest:Yeah.

00:45:57Guest:But in that 10 months, everyone who was working on the show, they go off on other jobs.

00:46:01Guest:So now I get a whole new crew.

00:46:03Yeah.

00:46:03Marc:Yeah.

00:46:05Marc:Well, I mean, in the beginning, I think that what really struck me was this idea that you're there.

00:46:10Marc:You're not sure what their procedure is.

00:46:13Marc:Yeah.

00:46:13Marc:But you know that you have been working in producing American comedies for half of your career.

00:46:20Marc:Yes.

00:46:20Marc:One of them, the most successful comedy or one of the most successful comedies ever.

00:46:24Marc:And you've got to sort of abide and adjust to sitting in a room full of writers.

00:46:30Marc:Now, the American show business industry, as it operates, you know how that goes.

00:46:36Marc:I mean, you're familiar with the writer's room.

00:46:37Marc:You know the compulsion involved.

00:46:39Guest:Yes, and I get to drive the car if it's my show.

00:46:42Marc:But there was also something interesting about the fact that these people finished work at a certain time.

00:46:46Guest:Yes.

00:46:47Marc:That people went home and that there was this idea I think that comes from From from what Russia used to be that you know a job is something you have to do Yes, and sometimes more than one right and that there wasn't this sort of passion of vision there wasn't a passion of Making this ensemble work.

00:47:07Marc:It was just sort of like we're just doing this job You're it's you're another widget coming down the pike right and

00:47:12Marc:And for you to, when you sat in that writer's room and the guy was, what was his, I can't remember what his initial comments were from the first head writer.

00:47:21Guest:Raymond's a wimp who likes this guy.

00:47:23Marc:Right, right.

00:47:24Guest:He's not a strong man, he's a weak man.

00:47:26Guest:This is not a Russian character.

00:47:27Guest:Yeah, right, right.

00:47:28Guest:Russian men are strong and macho.

00:47:30Guest:And as he's telling me this, by the way, it's not like this guy looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger either.

00:47:34Guest:He looks like a schlumpy writer like the rest of us.

00:47:36Guest:Right.

00:47:37Guest:And I'm just thinking, you're, this is baloney.

00:47:40Marc:Well, it's interesting that they, but that is the, that was what communism put in their heads.

00:47:45Guest:Okay.

00:47:46Marc:On some level that, you know, that there's this mythology of what the Russian man should be.

00:47:51Marc:And then when they get home, what happens?

00:47:53Marc:Well, that, but that was the struggle that you had.

00:47:55Marc:Exactly.

00:47:56Marc:I mean, you know, there was some very telling moments later with, I think the, with the one who was fighting originally, I think it was the second head writer.

00:48:02Marc:Yes.

00:48:02Marc:You know, where you actually get to a point where you couldn't get the director to listen to you.

00:48:07Marc:Right.

00:48:08Marc:He wouldn't talk to you.

00:48:09Marc:Nope.

00:48:10Marc:Because why?

00:48:12Guest:I was a pain in the neck.

00:48:14Marc:You drew attention to that, too, though.

00:48:17Marc:I mean, you take a certain pride in being annoying in the film.

00:48:20Guest:I don't really, but thanks for bringing that up.

00:48:24Guest:I'm just being me.

00:48:25Guest:I'm just trying to get it right.

00:48:26Guest:I know it's annoying.

00:48:27Guest:I do.

00:48:28Guest:But I also know that try it.

00:48:32Guest:Just try it.

00:48:33Marc:And the casting element.

00:48:35Marc:Here was a couple of the levels that were interesting is that you come in to a fairly...

00:48:40Marc:They don't understand television in the way that you understand television, in the way that Americans invented television, TV comedy.

00:48:50Marc:And given all this sort of pragmatic, kind of we're just at work, we have other shows to do, and one of the guys does a stage act...

00:48:58Marc:That's the director.

00:49:01Marc:Yeah, the director.

00:49:02Marc:And what you're basically trying to tell them is that these things are universal themes, that marriages are what they are, that the comedy has to come from a real place, and that you have to create an ensemble that works.

00:49:16Marc:So the great side story about the one actor you did like, what happened there?

00:49:26Guest:He was a terrific actor.

00:49:27Guest:He came in.

00:49:28Marc:And you could see it.

00:49:28Marc:When you watch the documentary, you're like, that guy, he's right there.

00:49:32Guest:He's great.

00:49:32Marc:He gets comedy.

00:49:33Guest:People ask me, how can you tell they're speaking Russian?

00:49:36Guest:And I say, you know, when you go to the movies and you see Roberto Bonini, you don't speak Italian.

00:49:40Marc:Well, that was a very interesting point you kept making.

00:49:42Marc:I'm not laughing.

00:49:43Marc:And they're like, you don't speak Russian, but you were right.

00:49:45Marc:You're going to laugh.

00:49:46Marc:You can see it.

00:49:47Marc:By the way, that's fine if I'm not laughing.

00:49:50Guest:As long as you're laughing.

00:49:51Guest:As long as someone in the room is laughing.

00:49:52Guest:They weren't laughing either.

00:49:53Guest:That's my point.

00:49:54Guest:Right.

00:49:55Guest:It's I do.

00:49:56Guest:I really do want to understand where they're coming from.

00:49:59Guest:Yeah.

00:49:59Guest:I'm not the pig headed.

00:50:01Guest:No, I really do want them to do it for them.

00:50:05Guest:But if they're not laughing either, what's wrong with this picture and how can we fix it?

00:50:09Guest:That's why it came.

00:50:10Marc:And then like this guy turns out he's under contract with the National Theater.

00:50:14Marc:Right.

00:50:15Marc:With the Moscow Art Theater.

00:50:17Marc:Moscow Art Theater.

00:50:18Guest:Which I didn't realize.

00:50:19Guest:I thought it was just a little theater company.

00:50:21Guest:I really did.

00:50:21Marc:Because this is historical.

00:50:22Marc:This is where Stanislawski comes from.

00:50:24Guest:Chekhov.

00:50:25Marc:Chekhov.

00:50:25Marc:This is where the roots of method acting were created.

00:50:29Marc:Russian naturalism, right?

00:50:30Marc:You think it's called?

00:50:31Guest:And I go to a meeting with Oleg Tabakov, the head of the Moscow Art Theater.

00:50:35Guest:To get his guy.

00:50:36Guest:To try to get this actor released.

00:50:38Guest:Just for the pilot.

00:50:40Guest:And let's see where it goes.

00:50:41Guest:Well, you see what happens there.

00:50:42Marc:Yeah, we don't need to tip that.

00:50:44Marc:But I thought that was great when you had this moment where you're like, this is what we need.

00:50:49Marc:We need naturalism.

00:50:51Marc:So you think you're going to get this director to understand that.

00:50:54Marc:Well, of course, it's their own tradition.

00:50:56Marc:So why would it stop at sitcoms?

00:50:59Marc:Well, I don't think they thought about it as theater.

00:51:01Marc:I don't think that... Exactly.

00:51:03Guest:Because, by the way, when I get there, the other surprises, they're not going to do it with an audience.

00:51:07Guest:Yeah.

00:51:08Guest:And this was essential to me.

00:51:09Guest:It was essential to our show.

00:51:10Guest:Yeah.

00:51:11Guest:I can't imagine our show without it.

00:51:13Guest:Can you?

00:51:13Guest:No.

00:51:13Guest:I mean, it was written like a play.

00:51:15Guest:Yeah.

00:51:16Guest:You know, very few sets.

00:51:17Guest:Yeah.

00:51:17Guest:A lot of the action took place right in front of an audience the way the shows we tried to emulate did.

00:51:22Guest:All in the Family and The Odd Couple and Dick Van Dyke and these shows, they were written, rehearsed, presented as a play.

00:51:29Guest:And then the beauty of four cameras is you get to keep it, you know, and actually edit it.

00:51:35Guest:So it's the best of both worlds.

00:51:37Guest:And when I told them the essential nature of having the audience and what it gives to the actors, their argument back to me was, but we would have to get chairs.

00:51:47Marc:And then they did bring one in.

00:51:50Guest:They brought in nine people.

00:51:52Marc:We won't say what happened.

00:51:57Marc:Yeah, that was a tough moment.

00:51:59Marc:But the big, I think the breakthrough, though, the way the movie builds, and you must have been thrilled that you had this arc in putting this documentary together.

00:52:07Guest:In editing.

00:52:08Guest:I was not thrilled when I was going through it.

00:52:10Guest:I really was involved in my job and how frustrating that job was.

00:52:14Guest:I knew before we went over, yes, I'm directing, quote, this movie, but...

00:52:19Guest:My big directorial conceit is bring two cameras so I don't have to think about it.

00:52:23Guest:Right.

00:52:23Guest:We have coverage.

00:52:24Guest:Most documentaries you know don't.

00:52:25Guest:Right.

00:52:26Guest:They bring one.

00:52:27Guest:They would film you talking to me and then they would cut, go back around behind you and film my fake reaction and cut it in later.

00:52:34Guest:Right.

00:52:34Guest:Well, I don't have time for that.

00:52:35Guest:I have a real job to do and I don't like the fakeness of that.

00:52:39Marc:And then that whole process of you kind of building the relationship with your driver who turns out to be sort of a unique person.

00:52:46Marc:Amazing person.

00:52:47Marc:A very surprising character.

00:52:51Marc:Yes.

00:52:51Guest:Because, you know, I really was afraid to go there.

00:52:54Guest:First, I was excited to go because it's quite an honor that another country wants to do your show, our former enemy.

00:53:01Guest:And then somebody says to me before I go, you're going to Russia, make sure you have kidnapping ransom insurance.

00:53:06Guest:I said, that's interesting, I'm not going.

00:53:08Guest:And then Sony convinced me to go and said, you'd have a security guy slash driver.

00:53:14Guest:And I said, okay.

00:53:16Guest:And so I meet the guy and he is kind of imposing and I get to know him and he's wonderful.

00:53:20Guest:And I say to him off camera, this is not in the movie.

00:53:22Guest:I say, you know, Eldar, I really am glad you're with me.

00:53:26Guest:I really do feel safe with you.

00:53:27Guest:And he says, Mr. Rosenthal, I must tell you, Sony did not go for the gun package.

00:53:40Marc:Come on.

00:53:41Marc:So now you feel a little less safe.

00:53:43Marc:But he probably had one anyways.

00:53:45Marc:No, he didn't.

00:53:46Marc:Oh, no.

00:53:47Guest:Oh, no.

00:53:48Marc:Well, you wouldn't have had that relationship if maybe the gun package came with another guy.

00:53:52Guest:I don't know.

00:53:53Guest:He seemed to act like he could have a gun if they paid for it.

00:53:58Guest:I guess I'm not worth it.

00:53:59Marc:Well, I think he captured that well, that the Russia that you entered kind of met what one's expectations are.

00:54:06Marc:You know, when you go to the building where they do the television, it feels like it's supposed to.

00:54:14Marc:It doesn't feel like a TV studio.

00:54:16Marc:It doesn't feel like a...

00:54:17Guest:I got lucky with that set, I guess.

00:54:19Guest:No, you did.

00:54:20Guest:You know you did.

00:54:20Guest:No, I mean, I know I did.

00:54:21Guest:But I don't, I didn't, it's not fun when you're there.

00:54:25Marc:But your insistence was basically that these are universal themes.

00:54:28Marc:And then you get an opportunity to have dinner with a member of the- A real family.

00:54:31Marc:A production, one of the people involved in the production, go to the family's house.

00:54:36Marc:And you did get some sense in even like, without knowing the language, that this is a family.

00:54:41Marc:And that all families are the same.

00:54:43Marc:Of course.

00:54:44Marc:And then there was another great beat where, what was that beat with the new head writer about his wife?

00:54:52Marc:He actually had a well-timed joke where you had some sort of exchange.

00:54:57Guest:Oh, that was the producer of the show.

00:54:59Guest:And he goes, I really like the show.

00:55:02Guest:It really shows how it is at home.

00:55:04Guest:I said, the wife is the boss everywhere.

00:55:05Guest:And he goes, not in my family.

00:55:07Guest:I said, no.

00:55:07Guest:He goes, can you cut this from the movie?

00:55:08Marc:It was one of the only truly comedically timed moments.

00:55:14Marc:Intentional jokes.

00:55:15Guest:But that guy truly is funny.

00:55:17Guest:And it's not that all Russians are not funny.

00:55:19Guest:I would never ever say that.

00:55:20Guest:Of course not.

00:55:21Guest:I'm part Russian.

00:55:21Guest:This guy is funny.

00:55:22Marc:You're probably part Russian.

00:55:24Guest:Probably.

00:55:25Guest:A little bit in the back.

00:55:26Guest:Yeah.

00:55:26Guest:But they have...

00:55:29Guest:You know, the point is executives are the same everywhere, not Russians are all like this.

00:55:34Guest:I would rather generalize about executives than Russians or Americans.

00:55:37Marc:No, sure.

00:55:37Marc:I mean, but they're even only... The executive you were dealing with, the head of comedy, it was very interesting because it's not even his business.

00:55:46Marc:That there's something about the way show business is structured that once you get above the creative, it's just business people.

00:55:53Marc:And this guy's business had nothing to do with entertainment at all.

00:55:56Guest:Right.

00:55:56Guest:And so he tells me my show is not funny.

00:55:59Guest:At dinner.

00:56:01Guest:On paper?

00:56:02Guest:Yes.

00:56:03Guest:Right.

00:56:03Guest:He says when he reads The Nanny, that show's really funny.

00:56:07Guest:But when I read Raymond, that's not funny.

00:56:09Guest:Well, so much hinges on the ensemble.

00:56:10Marc:And you knew that.

00:56:12Guest:Yes.

00:56:12Guest:On the moments in between the lines, too.

00:56:14Marc:Right.

00:56:15Marc:And so there you are stuck in Russia.

00:56:17Marc:You don't have an actor.

00:56:19Marc:Yeah.

00:56:19Marc:You don't have... And then the guy they do cast...

00:56:22Guest:is a disaster i think i think i mean i even that's when that's what those scenes where they were trying to play it and he was playing it uh with no comic sensibility without even a real character it was i don't want to i don't want to impugn this guy i don't want to say bad things about this guy he just wasn't right for this part right not everybody is i wouldn't cast jim carrey as raymond either

00:56:45Guest:You know, I wouldn't cast certain actors for this character.

00:56:49Guest:You don't have to be Ray Romano, but when you saw Evgeny Miller, the guy that we liked,

00:56:53Guest:You got that he could do this.

00:56:55Guest:Right.

00:56:56Guest:And he could make it his own and be brilliant.

00:56:58Marc:Yeah.

00:56:59Marc:Well, that was a pretty profound moment in the movie where all of a sudden it clicked.

00:57:06Marc:And nothing was done.

00:57:07Marc:It wasn't the script.

00:57:08Marc:It wasn't anything else.

00:57:09Marc:It was just a moment between actors who figured it out.

00:57:13Guest:And it's heartbreaking when you can't have them because...

00:57:15Guest:you just want it to work out.

00:57:17Guest:It's like a lost opportunity.

00:57:19Marc:There's what's sadder than that, no matter where you are.

00:57:21Marc:I tell you, I don't know that I've ever really talked at any length about that, about how so much of casting and what shows you see and how many shows don't have the people that they wanted necessarily, or maybe they didn't get them and it worked out, but that is such, everything rests on that.

00:57:43Guest:All the stars have to line up, right?

00:57:45Guest:They really do.

00:57:46Guest:And we'll never know why something didn't work.

00:57:50Guest:We just know it doesn't, right?

00:57:53Guest:You can't go back and say, well, if you had that guy or the script was better.

00:57:56Guest:It could be any one of these factors.

00:57:59Guest:It just has to, the car, when you turn the key, the car has to go on.

00:58:04Marc:So now where do you stand with the Russians now?

00:58:07Guest:We're all very good friends.

00:58:09Marc:Uh-huh.

00:58:09Guest:But we were just invited to the Moscow Film Festival with the movie.

00:58:13Guest:So I think they're happy with how they come off.

00:58:16Guest:I don't think there was a lot of worry.

00:58:18Guest:What will the Russians think?

00:58:19Guest:Well, what should they think?

00:58:20Guest:They knew they were being filmed.

00:58:22Guest:They had no compunction about acting exactly the way they acted, right?

00:58:26Guest:Right.

00:58:27Guest:People ask me how to get them to, you know, do all that on camera.

00:58:31Guest:I said I didn't do anything.

00:58:33Guest:By the way, look at my parents.

00:58:34Guest:They're not used to being filmed.

00:58:36Guest:Huh.

00:58:36Guest:that was too much with the skype i mean they don't you know your parents are real classics they are yeah i'm lucky to have them i was lucky from birth to have them first of all they were very encouraging and then of course they were a font of material for my tv show and then who knew they would turn out to be also brilliant comedy performers without knowing of course without knowing but but it's very revealing uh in terms of how much of your parents relationship

00:59:02Marc:informed Boyle and... Yes, well, that's what we were drawing from.

00:59:09Guest:We knew that was the key to the success of the show.

00:59:12Marc:What's her name again?

00:59:13Guest:Doris Roberts.

00:59:14Guest:Yeah.

00:59:16Guest:Was to go home and really observe what happened in your life and be as specific as possible.

00:59:22Marc:But yours are real characters.

00:59:24Marc:Yes.

00:59:24Marc:I mean, not everybody is that lucky to have... I say luck over and over luck.

00:59:29Marc:I know, I know.

00:59:30Guest:I know.

00:59:31Guest:Listen, I can't write a cop show.

00:59:33Guest:I can't write a hospital show.

00:59:34Guest:I can't write a science fiction show.

00:59:35Guest:I don't have that kind of imagination.

00:59:37Guest:What I can do is write stuff down that happens.

00:59:40Guest:And if you have a certain point of view, then you start seeing the world in a certain way.

00:59:45Guest:And soon even your parents are funny.

00:59:47Guest:Even the guy next to you is funny.

00:59:49Guest:Even your sister is funny.

00:59:51Guest:And then that's how I think that's the secret.

00:59:53Marc:But what your assumption won out and obviously won out here in America, but also in Russia, that that these are families and that this is the way it is in one version or another, that even if it's not like your marriage, you can understand it.

01:00:09Guest:You can understand a marriage.

01:00:11Guest:Yeah.

01:00:11Guest:And you can understand a sibling rivalry or that your mother is too much with the love and affection already.

01:00:18Guest:Stop.

01:00:19Guest:Stop.

01:00:19Marc:It's almost aggressive.

01:00:20Marc:Of course.

01:00:21Marc:Yeah.

01:00:21Yeah.

01:00:21Marc:Yeah.

01:00:22Marc:So now, did your parents see the movie?

01:00:25Guest:Yes.

01:00:26Guest:Just a few weeks ago, for the first time, I chose a public screening to show it to them because I thought if they were angry, they could not kill me as easily in public.

01:00:34Marc:And what was their reaction?

01:00:36Guest:They actually, God bless them, laugh harder than anybody.

01:00:39Guest:Oh, really?

01:00:40Guest:They never mind their behavior when they're doing it.

01:00:44Guest:Yeah.

01:00:44Guest:And then after, when you think there might be some shame or some anger that, you know, I made fun of them in some way, they laugh harder than anybody.

01:00:54Marc:Now, when you grew up, you grew up on Long Island or Westchester?

01:00:57Guest:Actually, Rockland County, New York.

01:00:58Marc:Is that Westchester?

01:00:59Guest:It's actually across the Tappan Zee Bridge from Westchester.

01:01:02Guest:Okay.

01:01:02Guest:On the Jersey side.

01:01:04Marc:Oh, okay.

01:01:05Marc:Because my family's from Jersey.

01:01:06Guest:It's all very familiar to me.

01:01:07Guest:So it's just if you're Bergen County, we're just north of Bergen County.

01:01:11Guest:It's Rockland County.

01:01:11Marc:My mom was from Pompton Lakes, which is in Bergen County, I believe.

01:01:15Marc:Yeah.

01:01:16Marc:Is that possible?

01:01:16Guest:It is possible.

01:01:17Marc:Wayne, does that ring a bell?

01:01:19Guest:I stopped caring about five minutes ago.

01:01:21Marc:Really?

01:01:22Guest:Just then?

01:01:22Guest:You went away?

01:01:23Marc:My life doesn't interest you?

01:01:25Guest:No, not Pompton.

01:01:26Guest:I don't know Pompton.

01:01:27Guest:Anyone out there still listening?

01:01:30Okay.

01:01:30Marc:So when you grew up, what kind of guy were you?

01:01:33Marc:Look at me.

01:01:35Marc:I see you.

01:01:35Marc:Were you always like this?

01:01:37Guest:Yes.

01:01:39Guest:You have to develop a sense of humor when you look like this.

01:01:43Guest:You're not that odd looking.

01:01:45Guest:Not that odd looking.

01:01:46Guest:Thanks, man.

01:01:48Marc:No, you're an attractive guy, but you were kind of nerdy, were you?

01:01:52Guest:Well, of course.

01:01:53Guest:I was also much shorter, much skinnier.

01:01:55Guest:And, you know, I got picked on a lot.

01:02:00Guest:And I thought being funny maybe in the school shows would get me, you know, not picked on.

01:02:06Guest:And then maybe a girl.

01:02:08Guest:And then what happened was I started getting beaten up by girls.

01:02:12Marc:Oh, no, you did not.

01:02:13Guest:No, I didn't.

01:02:15Guest:You just went for it.

01:02:16Marc:I have comedy.

01:02:17Marc:Yeah, I saw it.

01:02:19Marc:I felt it.

01:02:19Guest:But do you have siblings?

01:02:21Guest:I do.

01:02:21Guest:I have a younger brother.

01:02:22Guest:He's gorgeous.

01:02:23Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:02:23Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:02:24Guest:So I understood the Raymond thing from the brother's point of view.

01:02:29Marc:Is he an athlete in that whole thing or what?

01:02:30Guest:He could do whatever he wants.

01:02:31Guest:He's one of these guys.

01:02:32Guest:He could have been James Franco in 127 hours without the schmuckery of getting the boulder on his arm.

01:02:39Marc:What did he end up doing with his wife?

01:02:41Guest:He actually works for Time Warner.

01:02:44Guest:He runs, like, their whole online entertainment thing.

01:02:47Marc:Oh, really?

01:02:47Marc:You're both in show business, kind of?

01:02:48Guest:Yeah.

01:02:49Guest:Yeah.

01:02:49Guest:But he's great.

01:02:50Guest:I mean, he just caught a shark off Florida.

01:02:52Guest:He's the opposite of me.

01:02:53Guest:Oh, that's hilarious.

01:02:54Marc:Yes.

01:02:54Guest:Did he beat you up, your younger brother?

01:02:56Guest:No.

01:02:56Guest:I actually, when we were younger, he was five years younger than me.

01:03:00Guest:And he was the only person that I could take.

01:03:03Guest:And then at a certain point, maybe when he hit 12, I suddenly said, maybe I shouldn't anymore.

01:03:09Guest:Now I like you.

01:03:11Guest:Let's be friends.

01:03:12Guest:That's nice.

01:03:13Guest:He is my best friend.

01:03:14Marc:Oh, that's sweet.

01:03:15Marc:He really is.

01:03:15Marc:And your parents were always supportive, and they were not.

01:03:17Guest:Wonderful.

01:03:18Guest:They didn't push me in the show business, but they encouraged me.

01:03:21Guest:You know, the caveat, the Jewish parent caveat, have something to fall back on.

01:03:25Marc:That's what scares them about show business.

01:03:27Guest:Please, have something to fall back on.

01:03:29Marc:Yeah, and what was your plan B?

01:03:31Guest:Move in with them.

01:03:32Guest:No, I didn't.

01:03:33Guest:I didn't.

01:03:34Guest:I didn't.

01:03:34Guest:I promise I didn't.

01:03:35Guest:You could have had your own room back.

01:03:36Guest:If my kids aren't listening, that is a very bad plan.

01:03:39Guest:Don't.

01:03:40Guest:Don't.

01:03:41Guest:How old are your kids?

01:03:42Guest:16 and 13.

01:03:43Guest:Oh, okay.

01:03:43Guest:16-year-old boy.

01:03:44Marc:So they might listen.

01:03:45Guest:Listen, what do you do?

01:03:48Guest:They live in a comfortable house.

01:03:50Guest:Yeah.

01:03:50Guest:What do you do?

01:03:51Marc:To get them out?

01:03:52Guest:Yeah.

01:03:52Guest:You wait.

01:03:53Guest:You wait.

01:03:53Marc:I gotta throw them out.

01:03:55Marc:No, usually they want to leave.

01:03:56Marc:You know what?

01:03:56Guest:I'm going to use your show.

01:03:57Marc:Ben, Lily, are you listening?

01:03:59Marc:No more.

01:04:01Marc:I'll tell you, Phil.

01:04:02Marc:I mean, I've been with you almost an hour.

01:04:03Marc:I'm ready to leave.

01:04:04Guest:Oh, look how the comedy.

01:04:07Marc:How you go to it to hurt people.

01:04:09Marc:You can use it as a weapon.

01:04:10Marc:I think you hurt me first.

01:04:12Marc:Did I?

01:04:12Marc:With the Pompano?

01:04:14Marc:Where do you live?

01:04:14Marc:No, I don't live there.

01:04:15Marc:Who lived there?

01:04:15Guest:My mother lives there.

01:04:16Marc:What is it called?

01:04:17Marc:You stopped listening five minutes ago.

01:04:19Marc:Remember that comment?

01:04:19Marc:Do you remember that comment?

01:04:20Marc:It was only about Pompton.

01:04:22Guest:It was a dig on Pompton.

01:04:24Guest:Oh, was it?

01:04:25Guest:What a great name for a place.

01:04:26Guest:Okay.

01:04:27Marc:Pompton.

01:04:28Marc:Okay, so tell me about the future of Everybody Loves Raymond in Russia now.

01:04:33Marc:I mean, what did they end up buying?

01:04:34Marc:Where is it at?

01:04:35Guest:I'm not going to tell you because that gives away the end of the movie, but I will tell you that Poland has called.

01:04:40Mm-hmm.

01:04:41Guest:They want to do their version, and I'm not going.

01:04:44Guest:You're just going to let them do it?

01:04:46Guest:Go live and be well.

01:04:47Guest:Enjoy the show.

01:04:49Guest:Do your version.

01:04:50Guest:I've learned that the show is for them.

01:04:53Guest:Right.

01:04:54Guest:The best advice, and I tell this to you and your listeners, do the show you want to do, because in the end, they're going to cancel you anyway.

01:05:03Guest:But that wasn't your experience.

01:05:05Guest:But that is the philosophy of life.

01:05:07Guest:Right.

01:05:08Guest:We all get canceled.

01:05:09Marc:Yeah.

01:05:10Guest:Right?

01:05:10Guest:That's right.

01:05:11Guest:Live your life.

01:05:12Marc:So you feel like you've done that?

01:05:14Guest:I think I try to.

01:05:15Marc:Uh-huh.

01:05:16Guest:And I advise the people who now want to do my show, make it the way you want it.

01:05:20Guest:I understand.

01:05:21Marc:You still have a relationship with Ray?

01:05:23Marc:i don't like him very much but we have a relationship well you but you were together a long time no i love him we actually it's sickening we still go on vacation together every year oh yeah yeah yeah the writers all get together it's very nice do you like his new show i love that show it's great right yes i think they're starting up again soon because we're going to do uh good some advertising for them you know because i interviewed ray and mike and mike is great too and are you working on any new uh new shows yes you are yes i don't know if you've heard but business is terrible

01:05:50Guest:So I've had to diversify like everybody else.

01:05:53Guest:Would you open a store?

01:05:54Guest:I should.

01:05:56Guest:Handed in an animated presentation even.

01:05:58Guest:Really?

01:05:59Guest:Yes, this is not my field, but I figure, you know, I had a good idea for that, so I'm doing that.

01:06:03Guest:And then I have a show for England even because it deals with old people.

01:06:08Guest:And old people aren't really welcome in America.

01:06:12Marc:Did you see that Michael E. movie, The Another Year?

01:06:15Guest:Yes.

01:06:16Guest:How great was that?

01:06:17Guest:Yes.

01:06:17Guest:Could that ever get done here?

01:06:18Marc:No.

01:06:19Marc:No.

01:06:19Marc:I mean, like, I like his movies a lot.

01:06:21Guest:Me too.

01:06:21Marc:And I don't watch them a lot.

01:06:22Guest:But, like, you really realize that... Well, you feel like you're watching real human beings.

01:06:26Marc:Well, they're definitely dealing with real human... Yeah.

01:06:28Marc:I mean, it's pretty fascinating.

01:06:30Guest:Yeah.

01:06:30Marc:But it's a whole different industry over there in terms of what people... Like, we hide old people in this country.

01:06:36Guest:Yes.

01:06:37Marc:He's just going to put him away somewhere.

01:06:38Guest:By the way, at the end of the first season of Everybody Loves Raymond, a studio executive came over to me during the filming of the last scene and said, maybe you don't need the old people in every episode next year.

01:06:49Marc:Really?

01:06:50Guest:Really.

01:06:51Marc:And was that a fight?

01:06:53Marc:It was, huh?

01:06:53Marc:Was that a fight?

01:06:54Guest:there was no fight i said i'm not doing that the show was already a success by the way you test the show now yeah with kids who watch it at all hours because you could watch it 8 a.m maybe and then 6 p.m uh-huh who's their favorite characters the old people really of course yeah they're the funny ones yeah yeah yeah now what about patricia heaton now it

01:07:16Marc:I'm sort of fascinated with her.

01:07:20Marc:I know you're not going to say anything negative about her, but her anger seemed to come from a real place.

01:07:26Guest:I think she was married with lots of kids.

01:07:28Marc:Okay.

01:07:29Guest:And so she just brought in, I wouldn't say anger, but real frustration that I think is completely validated by the husband's behavior in the show.

01:07:40Guest:And we always wanted that.

01:07:42Guest:Look, if he's going to act like a putz like this, I think you have every right to get...

01:07:46Guest:upset with him because you're doing all the work and he's looking to get out of all the work right this is normal now was this but when you have this discussion with me now i mean was this a discussion you had before you wrote the pilot script or were these evolving discussions evolving discussions and especially early on you'd get a network note like you know she may not be likable if she gets mad at him you know and if ray doesn't help out around the house women won't like him and i say really then why did they marry him

01:08:15Guest:Right.

01:08:15Guest:I never believe it.

01:08:17Guest:I always go to Danny DeVito in Taxi as the perfect example of the unlikable character that you love.

01:08:25Marc:Well, a lot of cranks are likable.

01:08:27Guest:Because they're funny.

01:08:29Marc:Yeah, if it's genuine.

01:08:30Guest:Is Larry David's character a likable guy?

01:08:33Guest:I don't think so.

01:08:34Guest:No.

01:08:34Guest:But we love to watch him.

01:08:35Guest:Right.

01:08:35Guest:Makes us laugh.

01:08:36Guest:Usually people that make us laugh, I should write this down, are likable.

01:08:40Marc:Yeah, aren't likable.

01:08:41Marc:They're cranky.

01:08:42Marc:Yeah.

01:08:43Guest:They got a little edge to them.

01:08:44Guest:But that I'm laughing, now you're likable.

01:08:47Marc:So you're telling me the sitcom business is bad right now?

01:08:50Guest:Every business.

01:08:51Guest:And certainly show business.

01:08:52Guest:This trickles down.

01:08:53Guest:It is a business.

01:08:54Guest:It's a Wall Street commodity like everything else.

01:08:56Guest:Sure.

01:08:57Guest:Business is down.

01:08:57Guest:So, you know, I'm even working on a Broadway show.

01:09:00Guest:I'm working on all kinds of stuff.

01:09:01Marc:Yeah.

01:09:02Marc:As a creator or just as a- A writer.

01:09:04Marc:Oh, really?

01:09:05Marc:Yeah.

01:09:06Marc:A musical?

01:09:07Marc:Yeah.

01:09:07Marc:That's exciting.

01:09:08Marc:It is.

01:09:09Marc:You seem to be open to new things, that's for sure.

01:09:11Guest:Of course, yes.

01:09:12Guest:You know, what, am I going to do the next family show?

01:09:14Guest:I feel like I did it already.

01:09:15Guest:I did 210 episodes of Family.

01:09:16Guest:What am I going to do?

01:09:17Guest:Go back and do them again just with different cast?

01:09:19Marc:You can't.

01:09:20Guest:I don't want to.

01:09:21Guest:I did it.

01:09:22Marc:Yeah.

01:09:22Guest:Modern Family is doing a very good job of the new family.

01:09:26Marc:Right.

01:09:27Marc:And what's it like to work on a musical?

01:09:29Guest:I love it.

01:09:30Marc:You're not writing music.

01:09:32Marc:No, but you get to collaborate.

01:09:34Marc:Because they want those lines in between the songs.

01:09:36Guest:You want that.

01:09:37Guest:You get to, you know, what if the song was kind of... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:41Guest:Suddenly you're up.

01:09:41Guest:What is it?

01:09:42Guest:Can you talk about it?

01:09:43Guest:Can't tell you yet.

01:09:43Guest:No, because actually the title is still in discussion with legal stuff.

01:09:50Marc:Okay.

01:09:50Marc:Yeah.

01:09:51Marc:Well, the movie is Exporting Raymond.

01:09:53Guest:Yes, go see it in the theater.

01:09:55Guest:It plays like a feature comedy, they tell me.

01:09:57Guest:It does.

01:09:58Marc:It has laughs like a comedy.

01:09:59Marc:It does.

01:10:01Marc:And I'm not a laugher, Phil.

01:10:03Guest:I can tell.

01:10:04Guest:And I laugh.

01:10:05Marc:You look so sad just sitting here.

01:10:07Marc:Oh, my God.

01:10:07Marc:That's two.

01:10:08Marc:I hit you once, you got two in.

01:10:11Marc:Thanks for being here.

01:10:13Guest:I love you.

01:10:13Guest:Thank you.

01:10:13Marc:You bet.

01:10:16Marc:all right that's our show that's phil rosenthal and uh that movie is is is good it's uh there's some great moments in it i would go see it exporting raymond and i don't say that about everything and i don't have to say that about anything but i i definitely got a kick out of that movie and there was some very provocative stuff in there

01:10:37Marc:Please go to WTFPod.com.

01:10:39Marc:Enjoy the new site.

01:10:40Marc:New site is up.

01:10:41Marc:Good times.

01:10:42Marc:A lot of stuff up there.

01:10:44Marc:Check it out.

01:10:44Marc:I'm going to be updating that stuff, and I'm going to stay on top of it, just like the mailing list.

01:10:49Marc:Get on the mailing list.

01:10:50Marc:Every week, you get a little dispatch from me with this week's guests, with some rambling, some noodling, and not much complaining, maybe a little, but...

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01:11:24Marc:You can also get them if you search WTF Premium on iTunes.

01:11:28Marc:Man, these endings are getting longer.

01:11:34Marc:Get an app.

01:11:35Marc:How about a WTF app for iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad, Android?

01:11:40Marc:Do that at the app shop.

01:11:43Marc:All right.

01:11:44Marc:Winding down.

01:11:45Marc:Okie doke.

01:11:47Marc:Between me and you, I'm going to put up a Gary Shandling episode on Monday.

01:11:55Marc:Just be cool.

01:11:56Marc:Keep it between us.

01:11:57Marc:Okay, bye.