Episode 172 - Sue Costello
Marc:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Pow!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Marc Maron.
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:That's right, pal.
Marc:What the fuck, pals?
Marc:How are you, buddy?
Marc:What the fuck, nuts?
Marc:What's up there?
Marc:Why am I talking like that?
Marc:Why am I talking like that?
Marc:This is Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:What's wrong with yous?
Marc:Why am I talking like that?
Marc:I'll tell you why Sue Costello is on the show today.
Marc:And I'm a little excited about that because I love Sue Costello.
Marc:And she's one of the only people that can talk like that and not drive me up a fucking wall.
Marc:Do you know how much time I spent in Massachusetts, in Boston?
Marc:Do you know?
Marc:Should I even get into it?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Hey, pal, what's up, pal?
Marc:What's up, pal?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:How are you, pal?
Marc:All right, I get it.
Marc:You talk like that normally.
Marc:Hey, what the fuck?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I'm giving myself flashbacks.
Marc:Fucking Boston.
Marc:I was there for years.
Marc:I can't tell you how alienating that accent was.
Marc:And I'm not knocking anybody.
Marc:I've grown to like that accent.
Marc:I've grown to appreciate it.
Marc:I find it endearing.
Marc:It took a long time, though.
Marc:I mean, I was in Boston from 81 to, what, 86 years?
Marc:And then I went back in 88 or 87.
Marc:I was there.
Marc:I was there for most of the 80s.
Marc:And that, man, I just remember there's a couple of memories I have that are fairly succinct about that accent.
Marc:I remember I was in 1989.
Marc:I was living in New York, but I was going to Boston to work.
Marc:And I had to work all these one-nighters all over the Boston area.
Marc:So I heard every variation of that.
Marc:Mac, how are you, Mac?
Marc:So you're the comedian?
Marc:Mac Maron?
Marc:Moran?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:What are you, Jew?
Marc:But whatever, every variation I heard of that accent.
Marc:And at the time, I just felt so outside of anybody that had that accent.
Marc:I thought that accent was out to get me.
Marc:I once, okay, here's what I was going to tell you.
Marc:I lived in New York City.
Marc:I'd go up on the weekends to work in the Boston area to do one-nighters.
Marc:I used to stay at my girlfriend's up there.
Marc:And for some reason, it was in Somerville.
Marc:Somerville, Massachusetts.
Marc:I don't even know if I'm doing it right.
Marc:I was in Somerville.
Marc:It wasn't in Davis Square.
Marc:It was outside of Porter Square.
Marc:And she lived on the second or third floor of this building.
Marc:And across the street, I don't know what the hell was going on there.
Marc:I don't even remember the building.
Marc:All I know was there was a girl named Jennifer who lived on the second floor of the building across the street.
Marc:And the reason I know that is almost every night or at least four or five nights a week, our bedroom was right on the street or my girlfriend's bedroom was on the street.
Marc:And whatever the hell was going on, there was always someone in the street at about anywhere from 11 at night till four in the morning doing this.
Marc:Jennifer!
Marc:Jennifer!
Marc:Jennifer!
Marc:It seemed like it went on for hours.
Marc:It was like some sort of horrendous, tragic comedy going on with some woman named Jennifer.
Marc:We never even understood it.
Marc:It was just nonstop drama in that accent.
Marc:On another note, now that I'm talking about this, this reminded me of another episode in that apartment.
Marc:I used to go up there on weekends and I'd stay with her and she lived with these two girls and this dude.
Marc:What the hell was that guy's name?
Marc:This was one of those moments, I'm sure everyone's had one in their life, where you don't even realize that people hate your fucking guts.
Marc:I remember I'd been commuting up there.
Marc:I was staying up there every other weekend, hanging out with these roommates of hers.
Marc:And one morning they sat me down.
Marc:They said, come in here.
Marc:And they brought me in with the woman who actually went on to be my first wife, brought me into the kitchen and they sat me down.
Marc:She didn't know what was going to happen.
Marc:And they basically said this kid, Sean, that was his name.
Marc:He was like a surfer guy.
Marc:And these two women and Sean was doing the talking.
Marc:Damn it.
Marc:And he never talks.
Marc:And they basically said, he said, yeah, we don't want you staying here anymore.
Marc:And I go, what?
Marc:Like, we just don't want you staying here.
Marc:Like, what do you do?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Well, I don't understand.
Marc:And he got flustered because we just don't we just don't like you.
Marc:I'm like, what do you know?
Marc:I couldn't even understand it.
Marc:I thought it was perfectly pleasant.
Marc:I thought everybody should cherish the time that they spent with me.
Marc:And I said, well, I don't understand.
Marc:He's like, we just want you out.
Marc:You just can't stay here anymore.
Marc:I said, I'll pay rent.
Marc:They're like, no, we don't want money.
Marc:We just don't want you to stay here anymore.
Marc:It was weird.
Marc:I didn't know what to do.
Marc:And I looked at Kim, who was the woman that I was seeing, and she was in any position.
Marc:I mean, I think she fought for me after I left, but it was ridiculous.
Marc:primarily because I was in the awkward position that I couldn't go into this house anymore where the girl I was dating lived and where I used to sleep.
Marc:So then I would come up for the weekend and I'd have to stand outside and I have to stand outside across from the guy going, Jennifer, saying, Kim, Kim, Jennifer.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:It's my turn, pal.
Marc:Kim, just come to the window.
Marc:Jennifer, kick your ass.
Marc:Those were proud days.
Marc:Another story revolving around that accent that I think had a traumatic effect on me was before, long before I moved to New York, I was just starting out as a comic and I remember doing a set at the Comedy Connection in Boston and after the set,
Marc:these two college girls came up to me and one said, I want to introduce you to my friend.
Marc:I can't remember her name.
Marc:She's from France.
Marc:She's an exchange student, an exchange student from France.
Marc:So this woman was talking to me in this broken English and this French accent.
Marc:It was very charming.
Marc:You know, I got the balls up to ask her out.
Marc:She said, okay.
Marc:And then when I was supposed to go out with her, I drove all the way out to this college.
Marc:I don't even remember where it was.
Marc:And I go to pick her up.
Marc:And then her friend who she was with at the club says, yeah, so-and-so's got something she wants to tell you.
Marc:And I'm like, why?
Marc:What's the matter?
Marc:Is everything all right?
Marc:I just think you ought to come with me.
Marc:So I go back and there's this woman.
Marc:And I'm like, hey, how's it going?
Marc:She's like, hi.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:She's like, yeah, I lied.
Marc:I'm from Quincy.
Marc:And I'm like, ugh.
Marc:Like, not only was she not from France, she was from Quincy.
Marc:I don't even know what that means, but she had that accent.
Marc:It was horrendous.
Marc:I felt like an idiot.
Marc:But I took her out anyways.
Marc:It was not as exotic, talking about Quincy over talking about Paris.
Marc:Jennifer!
Jennifer!
Marc:No, I mean, I don't know, like, you know, in your career, you've had these things where you feel yourself being launched somehow.
Marc:And just sort of like all of a sudden it's like, I can't deal with all this shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's too much to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And think about it on a personal level, how hard it is to handle yourself with people on a personal level.
Marc:In general.
Guest:And then magnify that.
Guest:Without success.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's hard for me.
Marc:magnify that by a million in six seconds it's hard not to become a douchebag yes i don't scared and angry and don't know how to handle it and then you're like sorry i didn't mean that yeah in my garage sue costello how are you doing i'm excellent i'm really good yeah i will i mean this is interesting for me because you know you've had in your career you've had some ups and downs yes big ups and downs
Marc:But when I met you, you were you were just starting out in in Boston and you were, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you were an aerobics teacher.
Guest:Yes, I taught aerobics to old ladies.
Guest:Make sure you clear.
Marc:You taught aerobics to old ladies.
Guest:I wasn't like a glamorous aerobics instructor.
Guest:I had like a senior class and they actually I taught them for like a year and I took one day off and they signed a petition to get rid of me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:The old ladies ganged up on you?
Guest:Yeah, they were like mean old ladies.
Marc:Were you pushing them too hard?
Guest:I had a big band tape for them and everything.
Guest:I thought I was doing a good job.
Marc:Oh, you're so sweet.
Marc:So you're playing a little Buddy Rich or some Artie Shaw.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they were just... Was this in Southie?
Guest:No, this was in New York.
Guest:This was when I first moved to New York.
Guest:I got the aerobics degree, if you will, in Boston because I was moving to New York and I knew I wasn't going to make money doing stand-up right away.
Marc:So I met you... I think you were dating Fitzsimmons.
Marc:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:How do you like that?
Guest:I dated him for how long?
Guest:Four and a half years.
Guest:I knew you were going to go to that.
Marc:Well, I've had him on the show before and people know him.
Guest:Yes, I dated him for four and a half years.
Marc:And it seemed to make sense back then that you two were dating.
Marc:You lived with him.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:He was a nice guy, wasn't he?
Guest:Very.
Marc:He's a nice kid in there in the midst of all that weird aggression.
Guest:Well, he had a terrible thing happen.
Guest:That's why our relationship didn't necessarily make it all the way.
Marc:I didn't know about the terrible thing.
Guest:Yes, you did.
Guest:You didn't?
Marc:What?
Guest:His dad died.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, had a heart attack and died.
Marc:Out of nowhere.
Guest:Literally, he wasn't even talking to his dad.
Marc:Oh, so there was no resolution there.
Guest:No, and he's like, I'm afraid, I'm afraid my father's going to die.
Guest:I'm like, he's not going to die.
Marc:And he died.
Guest:Don't worry.
Guest:And he died.
Marc:And you were with him then?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that was rough.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So let's go back to Southie.
Marc:Because, you know, you were in the fighter.
Marc:And when I talked to you, you were shooting it.
Marc:I remember the last time I saw you, you were so excited.
Marc:You're talking like, yes, David O. Russell loves you because you were authentic.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, I could tell you the story how I got the...
Guest:We can swear on this, right?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:All right, so let me tell you how I got it, because I really... Because you know I grew up in Boston, fist fighting, crazy, like... Yeah, I want to get into that, because I've been obsessed and fascinated with Southie.
Marc:Isn't that where you're from?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Well, Dorchester, which is right beside Southie.
Guest:That's like even worse.
Marc:Dorchester, to me, is still frightening.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like, it frightens... When I lived in Boston, I was so sure that the entire Irish community hated me.
Guest:They probably did.
Marc:Just because of who I was.
Guest:No, I've dated guys where they're like, I can't even date you anymore, because I hate Boston, because they used to beat the shit out of me.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But seriously, I had to say Dorchester because they get so mad at me because the press always says I'm from Southie and the people, they email me and call me and they're like, you're not from Southie, you're from Savin Hill.
Guest:Meanwhile, it's like one street.
Marc:People from Southie get mad?
Guest:Well, mostly the people from Savin Hill because they want me to be the one that's- To promote- Well, yeah, I'm from there.
Guest:The winner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're the winner.
Guest:You made it out.
Guest:You're the star.
Guest:She's famous.
Marc:Oh, look at her.
Guest:but what was that like i can't even imagine like dorchester in my mind when i was there it was just this hard kind of like working class you know like bigoted weird place it is weird it's i don't know what the repression is i can't even i was back recently doing my show up there and i was like what is it it's like and the guy like it's the sexuality is very very very repressed so it comes out all twisted and comes oh really oh bad with with men and women yeah is it a catholic thing
Guest:I think it is, yeah.
Guest:I think it's because it's so concentrated.
Guest:It's so Irish Catholic and so... And then they put the Boston on top of it and it's like... Did you have relatives that were actually Irish?
Guest:My grandmother was from County Mayo.
Marc:So she's got an Irish accent.
Marc:How did the Irish accent become to whatever you have?
Marc:This is lazy speech.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Marc:Because Irish accents are so wonderful and lilty and nice and then all of a sudden it's like, fucking hell!
Guest:It's lazy speech.
Guest:We say ca.
Guest:It's funny because when people try to mimic it, they think it's like overt and it's not.
Guest:It's very subtle.
Marc:Really?
Guest:In your mind?
Guest:No, when you say ca.
Guest:It's just throw it away.
Guest:It's not like ca, like how they do it or they overdo it.
Marc:Like Steve Sweeney does it?
Marc:Yeah, Steve Sweeney.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, so you're growing up there.
Guest:It's like crazy, crazy, crazy fist fighting, and then I start doing stand-up, and the next thing I know, I'm in Hollywood.
Marc:Okay, so you started off and you only did stand-up in Boston for a year or so, and then you went to New York.
Guest:I went to New York by accident.
Guest:I had an open mic at Caroline's, like a bringer show.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I brought the old ladies.
Guest:I had to bring 15 people.
Marc:You brought the ladies.
Marc:You taught him.
Guest:Yes, that's all I had.
Guest:That's the only people I knew in New York.
Marc:Before they turned on you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Maybe that's why they turned out.
Marc:They saw your show and they were like, what?
Marc:Filthy girl.
Guest:So I had to bring 15 people.
Guest:So I brought all the 15 old ladies.
Guest:And it was just like what Andy Ingalls, Monday Night Caroline's.
Guest:And I guess, what was it?
Guest:Luna Lounge they used to do.
Guest:Luna Lounge got canceled.
Guest:And all the managers from that place came to Caroline's that night.
Guest:So by accident, they saw me on stage.
Guest:Next thing I know, I'm borrowing clothes from the old lady.
Guest:Old ladies, I'm flying to LA, having all these meetings.
Marc:With Ruthann.
Guest:With Ruthann.
Marc:Ruthann Secunda, who is my first agent, who is famous for taking new unknown talent, making them a lot of money, and then seeing what happens.
Guest:I made my money.
Guest:I'm going to be on the record and say the reason why I got the deals I got is because I negotiated them.
Marc:Right, but she had a knack for finding talent.
Marc:I mean, she was very good at shepherding new talent to executives and saying, look what I found you.
Marc:And they go, here's a bunch of money.
Marc:But a lot of people didn't get the deal that you got.
Marc:I mean, you literally got an on-air commitment.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I had two deals before that, and then I got the show.
Guest:But I got it all based on, like, I shot a pilot, then I got another pilot because of that, and then I got the show from that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So it wasn't like I just, it was all this, you know, arbitrary thing.
Marc:And I think what happened to you is a fairly I don't think I've talked to anybody that's happened to and it's a fairly terrifying thing.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:I talked to Tom Rhodes as well.
Marc:But where you have a situation where you get a huge deal happened to Lenny Clark, too, where you have a huge deal, where you have an on air commitment for what, 12 episodes, 13 episodes.
Marc:And then somewhere in the first five or six episodes, the executives decide that it's not working.
Guest:Mine was a horror show.
Guest:Mine was toted as like the best sitcom, even Les Moonves.
Guest:He's like, I would never.
Guest:I had two deals with him and then I went to Fox.
Guest:And he's like, I've never voted, like rooted for anybody else on another network.
Guest:I want Sue Costello to succeed because that show is like awesome.
Guest:Like that's, they were like, it's awesome even.
Guest:And then Mark McGuire hit a 60 second home run the night of the premiere.
Guest:We had all this press, all this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you blame Mark McGuire.
Guest:Yeah, and then he found out he's on steroids.
Guest:So it's like another drug addict ruined my life.
Marc:So you think that it happened after the premiere was the death knell?
Marc:I mean, what was that?
Marc:Was it called, Sue?
Guest:It was called Costello.
Guest:No, they moved King of the Hill also.
Guest:They thought it was so good that they moved King of the Hill.
Marc:And it was your life, basically, right?
Guest:It was my life.
Marc:And you were trying to get your shit together.
Marc:What was the angle?
Marc:You were living with your parents or what?
Guest:Living with my parents and trying to better myself.
Marc:In Dorchester.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Trying to better yourself.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And they didn't like it.
Guest:I think it was really fun.
Guest:People still say, like, quote lines from it and everything.
Marc:It was very sweet, right?
Marc:You were, what, trying to quit drinking and what?
Guest:Trying to just change.
Guest:Because they always do the other thing.
Marc:Because you were stuck in this working-class neighborhood and you wanted to get out or what?
Guest:And my thing was always to make fun of myself, which is what I always do.
Guest:But they somehow...
Guest:turned it a little bit in terms of like making fun of the neighborhood.
Guest:And I kept trying to, that was my struggle to say, no, let's make fun of me.
Guest:Like it's funnier to make fun of me.
Marc:Right, right, right, right.
Marc:So, but the interesting thing to me is that this happened, you're living high on the hog, got yourself a place in New York,
Guest:And LA.
Guest:I was living high.
Guest:I had a Mercedes.
Guest:I had the whole thing.
Marc:You were one of those people.
Marc:Isn't it interesting that when you come from a background, like if I ever got a lot of money, I would stick it in a hole.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:But people that come from a working class background, they're like, fuck it.
Guest:I'm like a baseball player or a football player.
Guest:No, this guy called me the other day.
Guest:He's like, Sue, because I'm writing a book.
Guest:And he's like, Sue, I wanted to do a book with you when you were doing your show and you were managed by so-and-so.
Guest:I go, oh, you mean that guy that I paid $30,000 for a stake at Dantana's?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do that or that's the way you look at him?
Guest:That's what I did.
Guest:He managed me for like three weeks and I paid him $30,000.
Marc:You fired him?
Guest:He fired me as soon as the show got canceled.
Guest:He signed me as soon as the show was on there.
Marc:Are you going to name names?
Marc:No, I don't need to name names.
Guest:He knows who he is and I'm going to see him again.
Guest:You gotta be sorry because I'm blowing up again.
Marc:You're going back up to the top All right, so you had a place in LA you had a place in New York you bought Mercedes Did you buy your parents a car and all that shit?
Guest:I took care of my family a little bit.
Guest:Yeah, and then and then it all just started to go away It all well I pulled myself back the show got canceled and I pulled myself back to some extent I'd made the decision because I didn't want to be one of those desperate people running around trying like chasing it and
Marc:Well, how'd you pull yourself back?
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:I just stopped.
Guest:I just didn't do anything in Hollywood.
Guest:I went and started writing my one-woman show.
Marc:You went back to New York?
Guest:Yes, and started working.
Guest:I sat down at my computer, and I thought, I want to say what I want to say, and I know that I'm not like anybody else.
Guest:And I have to tell you, Lawrence Fishburne, I did a movie with Lawrence Fishburne, and he said to me, Sue, and the other thing that was happening when I had the TV is I'm a dramatic actress.
Guest:I went to school for theater.
Guest:But once I'm making that kind of money off you when you're doing stand-up, you can't.
Guest:I mean, I got movies and everything while I was doing the show, and they were like, no, just...
Guest:do the TV.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't that interesting?
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:I mean, I have a story, literally, like, I got the movie Pushing Tin.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I remember that movie.
Marc:I read for that movie about the air traffic controllers with John Cusack.
Guest:Yes, and so I went in to audition for that, and I literally was like, John- As his wife?
Guest:As the- One of the wives?
Guest:No, the bodybuilder.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:One of the air traffic controllers.
Okay.
Guest:So I looked at the script.
Guest:I was like, oh, right, like I might get a movie with John Cusack and Billy Bob Thornton, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I totally was fucking around.
Guest:And I weigh like 100 pounds, and I'm supposed to be a bodybuilder.
Guest:So I go into the audition, and I wear a T-shirt that says Cranky on it, like a tank top.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just flex my muscles the whole time I'm doing the audition.
Guest:I'm totally fucking around, right?
Guest:And I leave, and they call me, and they're like, Sue, you have to go to Toronto and meet Mike Newell.
Guest:I'm like, what?
Guest:Now I'm terrified.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm like, I was only fooling.
Guest:Now I don't know if I can do it twice.
Marc:Now I gotta go to the gym.
Yeah.
Guest:Make some real muscles so I get up there and I say And I do I meet him and he's hilarious like we get along great And then I go back to New York and the only reason why I wasn't gonna be able to do it is if Costello was shooting in the exact So I go back to New York and they say so you got the movie and I gotta say my ego did get a little like I'm like
Guest:I find that when I get scared is when my ego comes out.
Guest:It's it's my protection.
Guest:I'm like, ah, so I pretend that I'm you start acting like an asshole.
Marc:Yeah, like you start being rude to people.
Marc:My patient like with me, I get my patience starts to wear thin and I don't have any tolerance for like, you know, it's like, how the fuck did this happen?
Marc:Like you become a prima donna.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's all fear.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But I'm the kind of guy, when that happens to me, I can say things that resonate for years.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So I have to be careful.
Guest:You can burn that shit to the ground.
Marc:Really quick.
Marc:That's how good my delivery is.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Okay, so what happened?
Marc:So how do you rebuild?
Marc:Because I remember you hit the wall.
Marc:I remember you were with Chris, and then that relationship fell apart, and then I felt that I was concerned for you.
Guest:You were?
Guest:I'm all right.
Guest:That was the best thing.
Guest:When I was with Chris, that was the best thing that ever happened to me when he left.
Guest:He moved out of me when I was away for the weekend.
Guest:Ugh.
Guest:He sent me to call Montreal and he's like, get to Montreal.
Guest:Get to Montreal.
Guest:And I remember thinking, oh my God, he loves me.
Guest:And I was on like shitty shows.
Guest:I wasn't even on the main stage shows in Montreal.
Guest:And I would call him at home and he's like, I love you.
Guest:I'm watching the Mets game with my brother.
Guest:And I was like, I love you too.
Guest:And then I came home and he acted normal.
Guest:And then the next day he's like, I need to be alone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, well, what does that mean?
Guest:Does that mean you have to be alone now?
Guest:You need to get your own apartment.
Guest:He's like, what would you say if I told you I already got one?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:You got your own apartment?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's like, I signed a lease.
Guest:I'm like, you signed a lease?
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when he was leaving, he asked me for a hug.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And I remember sitting on the couch and I said to myself, first I said, no, Chris, you can't have a hug.
Guest:And it was like the turning point of my whole life.
Guest:Because I had just chased everything.
Guest:I had no like, I just reacted to everything.
Guest:And that was the first time I was like, you know what, there's something wrong with me.
Guest:The whole equation during this whole story is me.
Marc:So you're talking about the whole arc, the success, everything else that when that dude left you, you were like, I got to reevaluate.
Guest:Yeah, because my show got picked up and my younger brother that I've been totally tight with Irish twins my whole life broke his neck in a drunk driving accident.
Guest:Oh, Christ.
Guest:While the show was on the air.
Marc:When the TV show was on?
Guest:Yeah, so normally it would have been hard to be the producer of my own television show normally, but he was lying in Boston almost dead in a hospital room.
Guest:Is he dead?
Guest:No, he's paralyzed though from the chest down.
Guest:Yeah, it was painful.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's doing good.
Guest:Yeah, he goes on Match.com.
Guest:He has a girlfriend now, but I just saw him.
Guest:He's like, yeah, I got to tell you my Match.com dates.
Guest:I'm like, you go on Match?
Guest:I don't even have a boyfriend.
Marc:And he's getting some success?
Guest:Yeah, he's doing good.
Marc:All right, so what was it that, I'm only asking for my own personal, because I've had moments like that, but I don't seem to quite learn from them as much as perhaps I should, where you realize that there is something fundamentally wrong with you emotionally or whatever.
Marc:I mean, what do you do to change?
Guest:I just finally went in.
Guest:I was like, all right, I'll do whatever it takes.
Guest:And I knew what it was going to take.
Guest:I knew I was going to have to lose everything.
Guest:I knew.
Guest:I knew.
Guest:I was like, I'm ready.
Guest:And literally, I lost everything.
Guest:My house, money.
Guest:I slept on my friend's couch.
Guest:Like, literally.
Guest:I lived with an old lady.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:89-year-old lady on the Upper East Side.
Marc:And how did you, so what was the battle on a day-to-day basis?
Marc:Not feeling sorry for yourself?
Guest:Or were you- Keep producing, because I was writing the show at the time, and that takes a lot of energy.
Guest:The first show or the second show?
Guest:This show, this one-woman show that I have now that I've been working on for the 10 years.
Marc:Okay, so this is the same one that I saw pieces of a couple years ago.
Guest:And it's called what now?
Guest:Minus 32 Million Words.
Marc:Where's that title come from?
Guest:Because the show's all about how we fist fought growing up and we didn't communicate correctly.
Guest:And then I read an article in the New York Times that said that poor kids hear 32 million less words than rich kids.
Guest:Oh, so it was... So it's all about using your words, which is what we're talking about when you get scared.
Marc:Right.
Guest:When you get successful.
Guest:How do you communicate and say, excuse me, hold on a second, can you wait a minute, can you...
Marc:Yeah, there's also that thing about not really, like, if I'm good and I'm sober-minded, I can realize that certain things are out of my control.
Marc:But when I'm not, I'm like, it's like fucking nuts.
Guest:It's like your nervous system, like when they hit the bull and they go zzzz with the bull, like that's what I feel like.
Guest:I'm like, ah, ah.
Marc:Yeah, everything's personal.
Marc:You know, even, you know, the problem was air travel.
Marc:That's personal.
Marc:Why me?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like I start making connections and things like yesterday sucked too.
Marc:This is the second day.
Marc:So it's got to be, you know, somebody's trying to tell me something.
Marc:And I don't really have a strong belief in God, so I never know who's trying to tell me what.
Guest:But the fascinating thing is you can actually manifest that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You can actually make whatever your fear is, and you make it happen, and then you're like, see?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I win.
Marc:See, I was right.
Guest:See, because I have a fundamental belief that a lot of people have an aversion to love and to niceness, and it doesn't have to be God.
Guest:But I have a definite, we take ourselves down to self-sabotage.
Guest:That is the key to life, I think.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I think the key to life is realizing you are going to get fucked over.
Guest:Because as kids, we're all vulnerable.
Guest:I don't ever want to feel vulnerable again.
Guest:I don't ever want to be hurt again.
Guest:It's like, well.
Marc:It's going to happen.
Guest:Part of the maturation process is to be like, it is going to happen, so suit up.
Marc:Yeah, and don't act like a child.
Guest:No.
Marc:Yeah, the problem is, I think that some of us, the first time we got really hurt as a kid, that we just shut down completely.
Marc:So emotionally, we're right there.
Marc:Wherever we shut down then.
Marc:So now you're a grown person with a lot of other experience, and you have this horrendous anger of a five-year-old.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I'm on airplanes going, I fucking can't believe this.
Guest:And then everybody else is thinking that too.
Guest:I always think people are like, are you the mommy?
Guest:Even in relationships like guys and girls and everything, it's like, are you the mommy?
Guest:Fuck you, you're supposed to be the mommy.
Guest:Everybody's looking for that.
Marc:So what about this aversion to love?
Marc:Because I need to know more about that.
Marc:Because I have a really hard time receiving it.
Marc:I literally, when people, even now that I'm performing more, or when people like me, I'm sort of like, yeah, you can't be right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Or sort of like, fuck you.
Marc:Do you like me now?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they do like you.
Guest:Still?
Guest:Well, the whole thing is like, yeah, they are going to fuck you over.
Guest:Even if they like you, they're still going to fuck you over.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Yeah, but it doesn't mean they're doing it on purpose.
Guest:No, they're not.
Guest:If you think about your own, if you're using that kind of dynamic to protect yourself, then that's what they're doing.
Marc:And that's what you're going to attract.
Guest:But that's what you need to just tell them.
Guest:And it's amazing how many, I'm telling you, when I did The Fighter, I got to tell you, David O. Russell, he's like a fearless director.
Marc:Well, tell me the story.
Guest:All right, so I go in, I audition to play one of the sisters.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Now, I'm from Boston.
Guest:I fist fight.
Guest:I make my way all the way to Hollywood.
Guest:I've had this huge life.
Guest:I've been on yachts in the south of France.
Guest:I've been everywhere.
Guest:So I got this whole thing, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I shut down.
Marc:But not anymore.
Marc:Now you got nothing.
Marc:You sweep it on a lady's couch.
Guest:I shut down.
Guest:Not anymore.
Guest:Now I got a bed.
Guest:I got a pink bed.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm moving up slowly.
Guest:It's better slowly.
Okay.
Guest:And so I go in and this is the first audition I've been on since I took myself out of the game.
Guest:They put the camera on me and they're doing it.
Guest:You know how they did the HBO documentary?
Guest:Well, that's how they were auditioning us.
Guest:We have to improv.
Guest:So they put the camera on me and they're like, what's your name?
Guest:I'm like, Sue Costell.
Guest:They're like, how tall are you?
Guest:I'm like, five foot three.
Guest:They're like, how much do you weigh?
Guest:I'm like, 100 pounds.
Guest:They're like, have you ever been in a fist fight?
Guest:And I swear to God, it was like the heavens opened up.
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:My two worlds collided.
Guest:I was like, have I ever been in a fist fight?
Guest:And I was literally like, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, trying to remember which story should I tell them?
Guest:Which story should I tell them?
Guest:Which one did you tell them?
Guest:So I said, I was 18 years old, shit face out of my mind, in Faneuil Hall with my older sister who was at BU Law at the time.
Guest:She had one semester maybe of moot court.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're walking through.
Guest:I'm drunk, my lazy eyes out.
Guest:I'm total punk, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And walking through a restaurant.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I'm scared.
Guest:This girl comes walking towards us.
Guest:She's like six foot seven.
Guest:She has zippers all over her body.
Guest:And my sister turns around.
Guest:She says, don't you say a fucking word.
Guest:So the girl walks by.
Guest:And just underneath my breath, I go, like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She turns around.
Guest:Sucker punches me.
Guest:Knocks me out cold in the middle of the restaurant.
Guest:Going to kill me.
Guest:She's like, run!
Guest:Well, my sister's holding her back, using her moot court skills like, calm down.
Guest:My sister finally calms her down.
Guest:I wake up.
Guest:I called her a cunt, and she knocked me back out again.
Marc:So that sounds like a one-sided fist fight.
Marc:Were there any fist fights that you had where you got a few pops in?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I've had tons.
Guest:Well, usually I used to get beat up because I'm tiny.
Guest:I had a big mouth, but I would always get beat up.
Marc:So did you ever fight men?
Guest:No, not, no.
Marc:So when did the fist fighting stop?
Guest:When I moved to New York.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:When I learned.
Guest:I finally went to therapy, and they were like, it's never appropriate to put your hands on another human being.
Guest:I was like, really?
Guest:So you would just think your first reaction would be to fucking- Always.
Guest:I was so shut down.
Guest:People would come up to me, and they'd be like, so you hurt my feelings.
Guest:I'd be like, yeah, that's because you're a fucking loser.
Guest:I had no, because I had pushed it all so far down.
Marc:And you were angry, though.
Marc:It's not just about pushing it down.
Guest:Well, I mean, pushing down like any kid has any ability to see anybody.
Marc:What are some of the reasons you've gotten in fist fights?
Guest:Because I called everybody a whore.
Guest:And they'd be like, did you call me a whore?
Guest:And I'd be like, yeah, I called your mother one too.
Guest:And you were just fucking... There's a story, there's one of the scenes in my play, because the show is a one-person play, where we went to...
Guest:We went to Dance Factory, which was where we used to go on the weekends.
Guest:Where the hell is that?
Guest:In Boston.
Marc:It was a club?
Marc:On Lansdowne Street.
Guest:It was huge.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:What were the other ones there?
Marc:There was a nine or something.
Guest:The Metro.
Guest:Oh, the Metro.
Guest:They used to have under 21 nights where we used to go.
Guest:That's actually where the fight happened.
Guest:It didn't happen at Dance Factory.
Guest:We went and my friend Tricia used to- Are you going to change your show now?
Guest:To what?
Guest:No.
Guest:Dance Factory is funny.
Guest:She used to take the lighter and flick girls' hair.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so she did it at the Metro one night.
Guest:They got into a fight with black girls from Roxbury.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And me and this girl, Christine, went in the bathroom to call.
Marc:It's the history of Boston.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We went in to call her brother to pick us up because we were in trouble.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And the black girls came in the bathroom and locked the door and beat the shit out of me and Christine like crazy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Banged her head off the toilets.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Marc:So you're bloodied?
Guest:We woke up the next day.
Guest:We had bruises all over us.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:And that was the end of it, though?
Marc:There was no, like, we're going to get there.
Guest:We went back, but they weren't there.
Marc:You went back to the club?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the next night, we kept going.
Guest:That's one of the lines.
Guest:Everybody's like, Sue, that's one of the funniest lines of the show.
Guest:I tell this whole violent story.
Guest:And I'm like, fucking chased him with the empty root bitch and hops bottle.
Guest:And I was like, I go, no, that wasn't it.
Guest:Fucking Tricia sends a hair on the way out.
Guest:It was fucking hilarious.
Guest:We're going back again tomorrow night.
Marc:And you never got him?
Guest:No.
Guest:We just fought someone else.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're in the audition.
Guest:Okay, so I tell that story, right?
Guest:So now I never have the self-esteem to call somebody and say, what's going on with the role?
Guest:I usually wait to see if they call me.
Guest:Are you represented at this point?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:I haven't been represented.
Guest:I've been doing all this myself.
Marc:Oh, so you're really scrapping.
Marc:You've got nothing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Doing it all.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I call the casting director, the assistant, and I go, what's going on?
Guest:She's like, Sue, we don't know what we're doing, but I have to tell you, David O. Russell has told every single person he's met your cunt story.
Guest:So I was like, yeah.
Guest:So then they bring us up to Boston, and they have five of us in the room, and he's auditioning us.
Marc:For the sisters.
Guest:For the sisters.
Guest:And he's doing the same thing.
Guest:He's asking us questions.
Guest:So he has two girls sit down, and then he has two girls sit down.
Guest:And then he's like, let's see Sue by herself.
Guest:Now, I'm in the room with the other girls.
Guest:You don't usually audition.
Guest:I'm like, me by myself.
Marc:Now, who are those girls?
Marc:Because they look like the real deal to me.
Guest:Yeah, those girls that you saw are the... In the movie.
Guest:They're just girls.
Guest:Yeah, they're just girls.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That he put together, and then he shot them as one.
Guest:Which is brilliant, because if you think about it, the sisters probably didn't have a lot of identities growing up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, look it, and Dickie's getting all the attention.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's crazy, because Christian played him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like literally mimicking life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he goes, let's see Sue by herself.
Guest:So I'm like, me by myself.
Guest:And I've gotten really strong because of doing the one woman show over and over again.
Guest:So I go, all right, I'll sit down.
Guest:So he goes, so tell me about your drug problem.
Guest:So right away, I'm like, my drug problem?
Guest:But we're pretending that this camera is an HBO camera.
Guest:So I'm thinking, if I'm sitting here, I'm supposed to be talking about my brother and this fucking guy is going to ask me about my drug problem.
Guest:I'm not going to be happy, but I'm not going to let this camera pick up that I have a drug problem.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So I stopped defending.
Marc:Yeah, like what?
Marc:What'd you say?
Guest:I was just like, you're supposed to be asking.
Guest:I'm like, I don't have a drug problem.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm like, he's like, well, people are talking about you.
Guest:I'm like, well, I don't know what they're talking about.
Guest:And he got me to the point that I turned my head.
Guest:My neck was all red.
Guest:And they said it was like silent for like five minutes.
Guest:And I turned around and I looked at him.
Guest:I go, are you supposed to be fucking asking me that?
Guest:He goes, I don't know.
Guest:What do you want from me?
Guest:People are talking about you.
Guest:And his phone rang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, you know if somebody answers their phone when you're.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, imagine being on an interview and something.
Guest:I don't know what happened.
Guest:I don't know if it was yoga.
Guest:I don't know if it was all my therapy.
Guest:I don't know if it was because I was stripped down.
Guest:I just fucking went for it.
Guest:And I jumped out of the chair and I go, fuck you.
Guest:I go, you're going to fucking answer your phone.
Guest:You can ask me about my drug problem.
Guest:You're going to answer your phone.
Guest:Fuck you.
Guest:And his face dropped and he took the phone.
Guest:He goes, what do you want me to do?
Guest:It's my son.
Guest:I go, I don't give a fuck who it is on the phone.
Guest:Go fuck yourself and you go fuck yourself too.
Guest:And he tells the girls, he's got the phone in one hand.
Guest:He tells the girls to come grab me and bring me out.
Guest:And Jill, what's her name from Gone Baby Gone was standing there.
Guest:She's like, see you fucking good.
Guest:I got off to the bathroom and I literally was like, breathe.
Guest:I was like, I had no idea what even happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so then I come out of the bathroom and we could tell that.
Marc:You went into a real rage?
Guest:I totally freaked out.
Guest:But in character.
Marc:Yeah, in character, you.
Guest:Meaning I didn't step out.
Guest:If I stepped out and said, fuck you, he would have been like, get out.
Marc:You just tapped into what you were.
Guest:And pushed it through in the moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I had a couple of choices.
Guest:I could have went like, okay, answer the phone.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I would have went home with all the other girls that went home in that room.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I wouldn't have got the part I got.
Marc:You got the crack whore part.
Guest:Right, so then I'm standing outside and we can tell that I didn't get the part.
Guest:I'm like, how did I not get the part?
Guest:As a sister.
Guest:Yeah, I'm like, because I could tell the other girls got it.
Guest:And all of a sudden, Sheila Jaffe whips the door open and she's like, where's Sue Costello?
Guest:And she comes up and she holds me by the face and she's like, Sue, you're going to play a crack addict.
Guest:You're going to play Christian Bale's girlfriend.
Guest:Because initially the script was that I was going to be the girlfriend.
Guest:They changed it to an Asian girl.
Guest:And I was like, I am.
Guest:She's like, yeah, he was auditioning you to play a crack addict.
Guest:I'm like, he was.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:And then I talked to my friend who's a crack addict.
Guest:He's like, Sue, that was perfect because that's exactly what a crack addict would do.
Guest:They would find one thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they deny the drug problem and then they snap over something else.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I didn't even know.
Marc:I just did it.
Marc:Who knew that you had the core of an addictive personality?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who knew that?
Marc:Displacing blame.
Guest:Not you.
Marc:It's not me.
Marc:It's you.
Marc:So now in the big picture, you know, I saw the movie.
Marc:I watched it twice.
Marc:And you're definitely there.
Marc:But were you disappointed at all?
Marc:Not at all.
Marc:That you weren't there more?
Guest:Look at how you're trying to lead me with that question.
Guest:How would I ever be disappointed?
Guest:I'm an Oscar award winning.
Guest:I mean, yeah, Oscar award winning actually.
Guest:It was nominated for Best Picture.
Marc:What do you mean lead you with that question?
Marc:I'm just talking about like I'm thinking about me.
Marc:I did one movie part.
Marc:It was almost famous.
Marc:You know, it was about a minute and a half scene.
Marc:And there was part of me that wanted to be in more of the movie.
Guest:No, I love it.
Guest:I'm psyched.
Guest:I'm just using it to keep going.
Guest:I did my show the other night.
Guest:I got so much attention.
Guest:At Largo?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:How'd it go?
Marc:I was going to go.
Guest:I got a standing ovation.
Marc:Really?
Guest:In L.A., Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And let me tell you, you're going to love it because it's totally... I don't fuck around.
Marc:No, I saw parts of it, and I was going to go the other night, but I had to do my own show, and I'm sorry I didn't go.
Guest:That's all right.
Marc:How many people were there?
Guest:I don't know, about 60.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:It's a nice room, right?
Guest:I just threw it together.
Guest:We did it in the smaller room.
Guest:We did it in the little, in the side room.
Marc:Well, what's your hope?
Guest:I want to do it on Broadway eventually.
Guest:And I want to do another TV show.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which is what's happening right now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So really?
Marc:So you're in talks?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's why I'm not disappointed about the fight.
Guest:I'm like, what's up?
Guest:I know I had people literally call me from Toronto, like movie people.
Guest:And they're like, because that's what it did.
Guest:All it did was give me a little bit of a bump back.
Guest:And everybody's like, oh, yeah, Sue Costello.
Guest:It's perfect.
Guest:So I had this girl call me from Toronto.
Guest:She's like, Sue, as soon as I heard it's 1145 Dickie, I was like, Sue Costello's in that fucking crack house.
Guest:So they all, it's not like they didn't see me.
Guest:No, it's great.
Marc:No, I saw you.
Marc:You were great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now, so everything's fallen into place?
Marc:Everything's fallen.
Guest:I mean, I can't even believe the timing, because I sat down to write this show with pure blind faith.
Guest:I had no idea that, I had no idea anything, anybody would ever talk to me again.
Marc:Why did you pick that?
Marc:It's just sort of interesting to me because, I mean, I know what it is.
Marc:But in that moment where you would hit the skids, that you made a conscious decision to just, you know, get humble.
Marc:And what was the decision process that, you know, you just weren't being true to yourself or you wanted to take control of yourself or you wanted to learn something about yourself?
Marc:I mean, I can't imagine the heartbreak of a career, you know, just sort of.
Marc:burning down like that.
Guest:I didn't care that much.
Guest:That's what was so weird about it.
Marc:You never went through a depression where it's suicidal or like, fuck this.
Guest:Not suicidal, but no.
Guest:It actually fueled me to be... It almost got me to the point that I was like... The thing that I was lucky is that I got it early on in my career and I was very young.
Guest:So when I got there, I was lucky to see like, oh, this is it.
Guest:This is what everybody was talking about.
Guest:I remember saying to the camera guy, I go, you're telling me that I'm going to get here at six o'clock in the morning and I'm going to leave at two o'clock in the morning in this big airplane hangar.
Guest:And if this show is successful from three months from now, I'm not going to be able to go outside because I'm going to be so famous that I'm not going to be able to talk to anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that idea of how when they make you famous, they make you not human.
Guest:Because I feel as a stand up.
Guest:That's what makes us us.
Guest:So if you're going to disconnect me from what makes me live, I can't do it.
Guest:So I was lucky in that sense to be able to be like, well, that's not what I want.
Guest:So I have the balls like nothing.
Guest:And then you lose all your money.
Guest:You're like, fuck it.
Guest:What are you going to do me now, bitch?
Marc:But also you seem to be, you have a lot more vulnerability.
Marc:I don't know how you got it.
Marc:But like when I saw it,
Marc:you're like a different person than I remember.
Marc:I mean, you always talked about your life, but there was a sense that, and I think the reason that even the small portions that I saw really work is that you almost have a childlike vulnerability to it.
Guest:Well, that's what happened to me in life.
Guest:I went back to being the kid, but I still have that person from, it's all together now.
Guest:I still have that Boston, I just had breakfast with Molly Shannon, and I was telling her the difference now is she's like, what do you want to do?
Guest:So I'm like, I want to build a brand.
Guest:I like doing the business part of it.
Guest:And being a woman,
Guest:It's not always, there's that extra element when you're talking to a guy.
Guest:It might as well be the girlfriend or the mother or something.
Guest:There's always that extra thing where you have to really learn how to be like, just not take it personally.
Guest:Like even with David when he was directing me, like you could tell he loved it.
Guest:He's like, Sue, come here.
Guest:And I would be like, okay.
Guest:Like if there was no like, oh.
Marc:Yeah, why is he yelling at me?
Guest:Yeah, none.
Guest:Not your problem.
Guest:No, and we were shooting a big movie in 33 days.
Guest:Like, just get it done.
Guest:And so my freedom, and him and Christian were both just looking at me like, what is that?
Guest:Not too big, not too small.
Guest:I was just right there.
Guest:And I was actually enjoying myself.
Marc:Grateful.
Guest:So grateful.
Guest:I can't even tell you.
Guest:So grateful.
Guest:But yes, I've returned to that child.
Guest:And I used to not like it.
Guest:If people told me I was cute, if they told me I couldn't.
Marc:No, but there's almost something, it's not in a bad way, but like the vulnerability of somebody that comes from your past and being such a scrapper and an angry, edgy person, somebody who wouldn't take any shit.
Marc:When you see that you're all open and that, I think that all of us, especially defensive, angry comedians, are sort of in a state of arrested development that I think we're really childish.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That like when I really if I really let myself open up, I'm like like a 13 year old boy.
Marc:You know, I'm shy.
Marc:I'm easily hurt.
Marc:You know, I'm kind of excited.
Marc:But if anybody says, you know, anything slightly critical, I fucking just shut down.
Marc:I mean, how is it that you were able to move through that type of emotional disposition and not get hurt?
Guest:Because I realized my, I gave myself a break.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Once I realized that I was that human, because what I was doing was, I was defending against my own humanity.
Guest:So I didn't want to see it in anybody else.
Guest:It's almost like, why?
Marc:Even if it was very young and you knew it was very young.
Marc:So you just thought that if I let this kid out and, and know that, that, that I'm a grown person that's going to take care of this kid, that the only thing that could happen is I grow up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I had to let it be really, really painful at first.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I had to let those feelings... They say it's like if you push down those childhood feelings, when they first come up, they are intensely painful because they're childish.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's like to give yourself enough courage to do it, to trust that if you do it, you can eventually take care of it.
Guest:And I can do it.
Guest:People... And I'll tell you, people... I mean, Jim Brewer, he didn't show up.
Guest:I did that Hope Trump... That storytelling event I did with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't show up.
Guest:And this kid, Noel, he runs all... He runs Jerry Seinfeld's show now and everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said to Jim, he said...
Guest:Jim, I'm good buddies with Sue Costello.
Guest:And Jim's like, Sue's mad at me.
Guest:And Noel's like, oh, don't worry about it.
Guest:Sue gets mad at me too.
Guest:She'll get over it.
Guest:And I thought, that's the best compliment you could ever give me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not full of shit.
Guest:I get mad.
Guest:I don't hold on to it forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I always thought that if I was vulnerable and I showed that goofiness, that it would repel people or they would hurt me.
Guest:And it's the complete opposite.
Guest:And I was like, oh, it was the love I was afraid of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was so afraid that if I, I didn't know that I was tricking myself.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, when I feel it, when I feel it coming at me or if I feel received when I'm vulnerable, like I don't even know what to do with it.
Guest:You feel like awkward.
Marc:Like it's uncomfortable.
Guest:The way I describe it is that it was like I used to play if me and you were playing catch.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you threw the ball at me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would let it hit my chest and fall on the floor.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah, because that's easier than... I just didn't even know how to hold it and give it back.
Guest:I didn't know how to do any of it.
Guest:I had no idea.
Marc:Why is that?
Marc:Where'd you come from?
Guest:I got beat up all the time.
Marc:By your parents?
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:Everybody fought.
Guest:That's another line in my show when I finally realized that when I went to a therapist.
Guest:I'm like, everybody fought.
Guest:I'm like, your mother fights, your father fights, your grandmother fights if she still can.
Guest:And then I'm like, of course the boys don't mind.
Guest:Who would they go out with?
Marc:Right.
Guest:She's like, what did the boys say?
Marc:So it was like the opposite of nurturing.
Marc:So there was no way for you, even if somebody was to approach you with a reasonable emotional disposition and care about you, that would be like, you're fucking with me.
Guest:I'll tell you two of the hardest things that I ever had a face in my own, you know, because that's what we do.
Guest:We don't want to see ourselves.
Guest:Two of the hardest things that I ever had to feel when I was in therapy was one of them was she told me, I bet you people have been nice to you your whole life and you haven't seen it.
Guest:That was, I literally, it took me like five days to even, because she was right.
Guest:Because I like telling the story.
Guest:I'm the girl that got fucked over.
Guest:I'm the girl that, because who am I going to be?
Marc:So in that moment, who'd you think about?
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:I mean, if I think about Les Moonves, the guy used to call me at home.
Guest:Laurence Fishburne called me while I was in therapy.
Guest:She's like, Sue, answer the phone.
Guest:I'm like, oh.
Guest:She's like, do you think that Laurence Fishburne calls everybody at home?
Guest:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:Were there people in your childhood, though?
Marc:I mean, you know, not the head of CBS or major motion picture star.
Marc:I mean, did you find that it was a theme all your life?
Marc:Did you alienate people that cared about you?
Guest:I was always very loving.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Since I was a kid, my main goal was to have everybody feel good.
Guest:But after a while, if you can't beat them, you might as well join them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I shut down and became them.
Guest:Almost like a gang mentality.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you were the kid.
Marc:How many sisters and brothers?
Guest:I have two sisters and a brother.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you were the one that sort of like, come on, stop fighting.
Marc:Come on, stop fighting.
Guest:When I was really little.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you're just like, fuck it.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:Like, what are you going to do?
Guest:Nobody's going to change.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And now as an adult, I never knew how much courage it was going to take to talk about love.
Guest:I didn't know that.
Guest:I didn't know people would be like, we're not like you.
Guest:I didn't know I was going to have to maintain and stay.
Marc:But what's been the response from your family?
Guest:I told you where I come from, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Last Saturday I went to Boston.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Me, Lonnie, and Jim Costello went to yoga.
Marc:Who's, those of you?
Guest:My mother and father.
Marc:You did.
Guest:I literally, I was like, I'm at yoga with my parents.
Guest:I literally, like three days, I was like, I'm going to fucking, I'm going to cave in.
Guest:Because that's what I'm talking about, tolerating that.
Marc:Had they been before?
Guest:My father has.
Guest:My father worked out his whole life.
Guest:My mother hadn't been as much.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:It was so profound.
Guest:I'm like, we were crazy growing up, screaming, fighting, sneaking out of the house.
Marc:Is everybody sober?
Marc:Nobody.
Marc:No, my father doesn't drink.
Marc:I just picture like now when I see my parents, especially my father, if it gets emotional, if he thinks about the past, that he sort of comes a little emotionally unhinged.
Marc:He can't even really take responsibility for it.
Marc:He makes it his own fault.
Marc:I mean, does that happen?
Guest:Well, I separated.
Guest:I stopped talking when I decided to do this whole take care of myself thing.
Guest:I stopped talking to my family.
Guest:Ten years ago?
Guest:Well, it was five years after that I had to stop talking to my family.
Marc:And you tell them that or you just stopped?
Guest:Did you say, look, I'm not... I told my mother, you have to treat me with respect.
Guest:I can't talk to you.
Guest:And she said, what does that mean?
Marc:You bitch.
You bitch.
Guest:No, she didn't know.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:I didn't have to tell her.
Guest:I just had to be it.
Marc:They're just in their system.
Guest:But I had to be it.
Guest:That's what I didn't understand because I was stuck in that hole expecting everybody to... I was still that little girl.
Guest:And so by stepping away and doing what I did, I realized, oh my God, I don't need them to...
Guest:I didn't have to take care of them because that was what I would do.
Guest:I would either want them to do it or I would completely compulsively take care of them so I didn't have to look at anything.
Marc:I had a therapist say to me once that you can train your parents because after a certain point, they will abide by your conditions because they want to have a relationship with you.
Guest:Yes, and that's the other thing.
Guest:I'm not a person who can not talk to their family, period.
Marc:How long did you not talk to them?
Guest:Four or five years.
Guest:Really?
Guest:At all?
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:Not even like I'm okay?
Guest:No, and that's when I had no money.
Guest:I was sleeping with the old lady.
Guest:I was like a mess.
Marc:But how much of that came from shame?
Guest:Shame of not talking to them?
Guest:First of all, shame is the main everything.
Marc:It is?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:No, but I mean, was your decision to not talk to them completely based in, I need to find myself?
Marc:Or was it like, look at me.
Guest:Look where I ended up.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I never even had that.
Marc:So what kind of shame did you have?
Guest:Oh, I had shame growing up, like from my pure existence.
Guest:I remember going into therapy one day and saying to my therapist, listen, we got to deal with this veil of shame that's over.
Guest:I'm ashamed of every single... And it's crazy to change.
Marc:It's hard to understand shame, though, because there's a couple of things that I didn't understand until recently because of relationships I got into.
Marc:Like boundaries is a word that we all throw around.
Marc:But to really realize that you don't have them and what it means to have people fuck with them, I didn't really know the details of that.
Marc:It's real shit.
Marc:And shame is really that horrendous sense of not being good enough, being completely insecure.
Marc:It doesn't have to be event-based.
Marc:It can be just how you're wired, that you were never given the sort of support that would enable you to have self-esteem.
Guest:Well, to be seen, think about what we do for a living.
Guest:I'm a fucking comedian and I was hiding in public.
Marc:Yeah, we go out and demand people to parent us.
Guest:But we don't really let them see us.
Guest:That's so crazy.
Marc:I've been letting them see me.
Guest:That's awesome.
Guest:I like watching you on the Twitter.
Guest:I laugh so hard.
Guest:I can see you start spinning.
Guest:I'm like, I know what's happening.
Guest:It gets overwhelming.
Guest:And then you're like, I'm sorry.
Guest:I love when you say I'm sorry.
Marc:I'm like, I'm sorry.
Marc:I had to pull out altogether.
Marc:I got tired of fighting.
Guest:You can't fight with them.
Marc:No, I know, but it's like, it's so immediate.
Marc:It's like a drug.
Marc:You know, when you get that, that the Twitter immediate gratification thing is insane.
Marc:So when I start doing like, you know, like I'm tweeting that, like if I'm on a plane and I got nothing to do, forget about it.
Marc:Like I'm fucking, you know, 900 tweets later, people have been dragged through this scene with me.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So when did you first started going to the therapist?
Guest:Which is funny because the therapist ended up turning on me too.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Yeah, bad.
Guest:Taking advantage of me money.
Guest:That was the last thing.
Guest:When you still had money?
Guest:No, just recently.
Guest:Really?
Guest:When I was living with the old lady.
Guest:I'm telling you, Mark, two years ago, right before I got the fighter, I was lying in a twin bed living with a fucking 89-year-old lady who tortured me every day of my life.
Marc:Why were you in that situation?
Guest:And you know what's so profound about it?
Guest:It's because I went down to nothing and I rebuilt and I had to learn how to like...
Guest:Say to the old lady.
Marc:Why were you with an old lady?
Marc:I had nowhere to live.
Guest:I had no money.
Marc:So you had to pick an 89-year-old lady that abused you?
Guest:I didn't know she was going to abuse me until I got in there.
Marc:What was the situation?
Marc:She had a room in her house or what?
Guest:I needed to get off my friend's couch.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And this is in New York where?
Guest:She lived on the Upper East Side the old lady okay, and you just found it what I'm Craigslist or what no no no a girl from yoga said this guy's mother Usually has somebody live with her on the Upper East Side I needed a place live I had no money my therapist like you'll figure it out that's the whole idea of like Reaching down deep and seen if you okay, so you hook up with this old and learning how to use like we said use your words Negotiate people have to have things three times.
Guest:It's exhausting for a while Yeah, so I said
Guest:I told the guy, I said, listen, I can live with your mother.
Guest:I don't have any money.
Guest:I can pay utilities.
Guest:If she's just looking for somebody to stay with her, then I'll stay with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which was the shame.
Guest:Like horrible even saying that.
Guest:He comes back and he's like, yeah, she said okay.
Guest:So I go up to meet her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's like, okay.
Guest:So it's going to be $1,000 a month.
Guest:And I was like, my shame, my nerve.
Guest:I was like, I don't have $1,000.
Guest:I don't know what to tell you.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:She's like, wait, I want you to live with me.
Guest:And I'm like, well, I can't afford $1,000.
Guest:And she's like, well, figure out what you can pay and let me know.
Guest:So I leave and I tell her $200.
Guest:I didn't even have the $200.
Guest:And I told her.
Guest:I said, and I don't have it the first month, but I'll have it for you eventually.
Guest:And then I finally realized she was taking advantage of the fact that I had no money, like an old lady, an 89-year-old lady.
Guest:So I move in with her, I stay in the room, and of course the whole time she's torturing me.
Marc:But didn't you know right away, I'm just curious because of my own situation, did you feel like you couldn't make another choice at that moment?
Marc:I mean, you realized it was shitty right from the beginning.
Marc:Did you feel like you deserved that treatment?
Guest:No, I had to get it done.
Marc:That's all I could do.
Guest:I had to suck it up and get it done is what I had to do.
Marc:But was that the first place you went?
Guest:Yeah, but I had to move quick.
Guest:I'm trying to remember why.
Guest:Because I had to move quick from the couch.
Guest:Yeah, it was like tomorrow.
Marc:Okay, all right, all right.
Guest:But it wasn't so... I mean, I had a huge bedroom.
Guest:But how did she beat you up?
Guest:But it's so funny.
Guest:I said, all I need is a desk and a bed.
Guest:And guess what I got?
Marc:A desk and a bed.
Guest:I swear to God.
Guest:So maybe I wasn't aiming high enough, but that's as much as I could handle.
Guest:I really believe that you can only handle so much.
Marc:But how did she punish you?
Guest:Oh, she tortured me all the time, but we used to have fun.
Guest:I mean, she was funny.
Guest:I'd get all dressed up.
Guest:She'd be like, ah, glamour puss is going out again.
Marc:Was she a Jewish lady?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She looked like the grandmother on Fran Drescher's show with the big glasses.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:But she loved me.
Guest:And one time, I told her to stop torturing me.
Guest:I said, what, you're torturing me?
Guest:Boy, because you're 89 and you're going to die and you don't have a relationship with me because you're sad.
Guest:I go, what if I lived like that?
Marc:I just got sad.
Marc:You said that.
Guest:She laughed.
Guest:She just looked at me.
Guest:My therapist said, Sue, you're the only human being on earth who could make the angriest old lady treat you like a human being.
Guest:So to speak to it, it was beneficial to my growth inside to be able to negotiate.
Guest:And then when she kicked me out, she's like, you got to leave.
Guest:And I made her pay me to get out.
Guest:So the money stuff was a big deal for me.
Marc:She paid you to get out?
Marc:You're like, I'm not leaving.
Guest:Well, they didn't want her to die and for me to be in the big apartment in the Upper East Side.
Guest:So I knew what was my deal.
Guest:I was like, I started just to learn.
Guest:Like even when I made all the money with the TV, I never valued myself enough.
Guest:The money was an extension of my value.
Guest:So once I started to learn that I was valuable, the money started to clear up.
Marc:So now, okay, so how did your therapist turn on you?
Marc:That's a curious story.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:So you were with this woman how long?
Guest:Six years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was great for like four or five.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:helped you out very much taught me stuff that i just never even even one day that i was going to tell you the two things so the first thing she told me was i bet you people have been nice to you the other time is girls have always stole my boyfriends because i always feel like i look like a loser boy inside yeah so they would pick up on and they'd say so guys give you a lot of attention yeah and then they would go get the guys yeah and i would not i'd be oblivious right so i was telling one of these stories in therapy one day
Guest:And I was like, oh, I don't mind.
Guest:Oh, it's okay.
Guest:And so she just shifted in her chair a tiny bit and she goes, well, somebody has to get the last piece of cake.
Guest:And it was like from the tip of my toes to the top of my head.
Guest:And I was like, I want the last piece of cake.
Guest:So for whatever reason, the way she described it.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:That if there's a last piece of cake on the table, somebody's going to take it.
Guest:Why can't it be me is what she was telling me.
Marc:As opposed to not getting any cake.
Guest:I was saying you can have it.
Guest:Like if somebody... However she said it because she knows my compassion for people.
Guest:Like I always want to be compassionate.
Guest:So she knew I struggled with that.
Guest:So the fact that it was like, well, somebody's going to... Whatever it did, it shifted.
Guest:It got that thing inside of me that I needed to get back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That drive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I had when I first started doing all the TV and everything.
Guest:You deserve the last piece of cake.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So then...
Guest:So she was great with a lot of that stuff.
Guest:And then what happened was when I stopped having, when I had a hard time with money, she said, you can owe me the money because you need to see that somebody can be nice to you.
Guest:Now, she's a therapist.
Guest:I'm a person who thinks I've never let anybody be nice to me, right?
Guest:So I'm like, okay.
Guest:So then it starts going on and on for a while.
Guest:And her husband used to be down the hall.
Guest:And out of nowhere, she switched offices one time.
Guest:Like out of nowhere.
Guest:And you know they fucking talk about if you clip your toenail for six weeks.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Everything's like, let's talk.
Guest:So I remember saying to her, how could you switch offices like this?
Guest:How could you take such a sacred place and not talk about it?
Guest:I knew something was going on.
Guest:I said, are you going through a divorce?
Guest:And she did something like, what does that have to do with you?
Guest:Which you think, oh, my shame.
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:But realistically, it wasn't like I was asking.
Guest:It was happening.
Guest:It was happening.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So then it goes on a while, and I started to get stronger and stronger with my career.
Guest:I could feel it building up, and I wasn't making money still.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And one time I did a show, and they didn't treat me right at the show.
Guest:I did my one-woman show.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because I produced the whole thing myself.
Marc:Where'd you do it?
Guest:At the Cherry Lane, I can say it because it got closed.
Guest:They didn't treat me right with the whole thing.
Guest:With the money and everything?
Marc:Everything.
Marc:You directed it?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Really?
Marc:How come you didn't want to bring in a director?
Guest:I'm going to now.
Guest:I just wanted to wait until it wasn't emotional because I didn't want to be all.
Marc:Well, you didn't want to fight with the director.
Marc:Don't drama.
Guest:I didn't want to.
Guest:So I remember I said to my therapist, I want to tell her that that wasn't appropriate.
Guest:She's like, do you really want to fight with her?
Guest:Do you want to fight with... I just wanted to tell the lady it wasn't appropriate the way she treated me.
Guest:And I just went home and I was like, the first time I had stopped listening to everything she said.
Guest:And I was like, yeah, I do.
Guest:And I emailed the lady.
Guest:All I said was like, that really wasn't cool, you know.
Guest:She gave me all my money back.
Guest:So I was like...
Guest:I have all this money.
Guest:She just told me not to do that and I just did it and it wasn't even a fight and I just got all this money.
Guest:I have no money and she's telling me not to argue and I got this money.
Guest:I'm like, what the fuck?
Guest:And I tell her, don't fuck.
Guest:I need money.
Guest:So then she starts telling me that people are jealous of me because I'm so put together.
Marc:Your therapist?
Guest:Yeah, and I'm like, why are they jealous?
Guest:If they're so jealous of me, then what's going on if I don't have any money?
Guest:How could I be so put together and not be able to take care of myself?
Guest:That's weird.
Guest:It was so, and it started getting weirder and weirder and weirder.
Marc:She's making it personal when she's chipping away at you and trying to...
Guest:So I start to figure, so everything that she, this is the end of the show, my one woman show, because the whole show is about stopping using your fists, using your brain, and controlling your impulses.
Guest:I go into the office and I figure out that what she was doing is she was going through a divorce.
Guest:She didn't want the husband to see the money.
Guest:So she said I could owe it to her.
Guest:She was going to control when she built me back up when I was successful.
Guest:Didn't even keep track of the money, so when I was successful, she could make me feel guilty and give her more money.
Guest:And I went in and I said it right to her face.
Marc:And what'd she say?
Guest:She went...
Marc:Like that?
Marc:She became an animal?
Guest:Like that.
Guest:That's how she was breathing.
Marc:So you got it on the head?
Guest:I totally got it on the head.
Marc:Did she admit to it?
Guest:She didn't admit to it.
Marc:She just got breathing and you left when she was breathing like that?
Marc:You walked out.
Guest:Yeah, well, I told her.
Guest:I said, I'm not going to do it because I knew if I got into all the shit with her, then she could do her whole therapy thing and be like, oh, you know, let's talk about that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that's the change in my whole life where I'm like, no, I'm not going to fight you so we can talk about why I fought and make a shame.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because that's how people take advantage of you.
Guest:You act like an animal.
Guest:They can act better than and take advantage.
Guest:I was like, I'm not doing it.
Guest:And I sat across and it was the first time I was like, she had control over my psyche.
Guest:The courage it took to sit there and tell her that I knew that that was what was going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I left and I went home.
Guest:It was Christmas time.
Guest:I got in that twin bed at that old lady's house and I thought I was going to fuck it.
Guest:I was like, God, are you fucking... My show got canceled.
Guest:My brother got paralyzed.
Guest:My boyfriend moved on to me.
Guest:I lost my house.
Guest:My therapist is fucking... I'm like, I can't get any worse.
Guest:I was like, it can't.
Marc:And then what happened?
Guest:Sure enough.
Guest:It was like I almost had to stop looking for people.
Guest:Sure enough what?
Guest:It all took off right after that.
Guest:I got the movie.
Guest:I did that storytelling event.
Guest:I started doing my show.
Guest:My show's starting to get really successful.
Guest:I got all the great reviews in Boston.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:It was like I've been using my whole life trying to find these people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Shady people that take advantage.
Marc:They just come, dude.
Marc:Whatever you're putting out, you're going to get back.
Guest:And I wanted some, I didn't want to be, I just didn't want to be responsible for myself is the only way I can describe it.
Marc:Well, I definitely remember a change.
Marc:I mean, it became, you know, very sort of like, there was a period there where I'm like, she's acting as if because she's got to.
Guest:My friends say to me that... And the craziest part is when I had no money and everything, I couldn't even get comfort from people because if I told anybody, all they'd say is, I hope that doesn't happen to me.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, because it's everybody's biggest fear.
Marc:But there was that... Because I think that was the time where I was a little concerned about you because I'm like... Because part of my brain was like, how can she be...
Marc:And the idea that your therapist said people were jealous of you because you got together.
Marc:I saw what was going on.
Marc:I'm like, when you were at, you're like, everything's fine, Mac.
Marc:And I knew that you may have been in the middle of this thing where it probably wasn't necessarily fine, but you weren't going to act any other way.
Guest:I never complained to anybody ever.
Guest:Isn't that crazy?
Guest:People are like, Sue, I had no idea.
Guest:I'm like, what the fuck would that have done?
Guest:I literally put it, I shut it down.
Guest:I was like, I'm gonna get it done, and I'm gonna get it done.
Guest:And I always say that when Chris moved out on me, that it didn't break my heart, it broke my heart open.
Marc:I took that as an opportunity to be like... You should write a fucking self-help book.
Guest:Yeah, maybe.
Guest:Well, I'm writing my book of the show, and it's both...
Marc:But did you ever think about doing like a help show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because when I do radio shows, they call and they ask me questions.
Guest:And I'm like, because if you always just come from a loved place, like I can't solve the world.
Guest:But I can tell you, you can't treat me poorly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'll tell you that three times.
Guest:And you know what it's going to make you do?
Guest:Like me even more, which I never thought.
Guest:I thought it would make people go away.
Marc:Well, it depends on how persistent they are in treating you poorly.
Guest:They don't care.
Guest:I'm telling you.
Marc:Now, the way Chris broke up with you, is there any other way to break up with somebody?
Guest:Yes, of course there is.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Tell them.
Guest:Have a conversation.
Guest:Treat them like a person.
Guest:I'm a person.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I lived.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I never even talked to him again.
Guest:I just talked to him recently.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:Good.
Guest:I mean, as good as it could be.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I saw him at Geraldo's wake, actually.
Guest:Oh, I missed that.
Guest:And this is how I can describe me.
Guest:So he's like, hi, Sue.
Guest:And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:We're not fucking doing hi, Sue.
Marc:You drew the line?
Guest:I'm not going to fucking say hi to you.
Guest:You moved out on me.
Guest:So I called him and I was like, and I didn't know there's no way in a million times.
Marc:Wait a minute, you called him after that?
Guest:After that.
Marc:Because why?
Guest:Because I was like, I'm not going to say hi to him.
Guest:I'll tell you why.
Guest:That's what I said to him.
Guest:So I go, and I knew, I was like, my friends always laugh at me because I'm like, I have to express myself.
Guest:I'm like, I don't care if anybody pays any attention to me.
Guest:I have to express myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I call him up and I leave him a message.
Guest:I go, Chris, listen, I go, I saw you the other night.
Guest:I go, you're saying hi to me.
Guest:I go, I can't talk to you.
Guest:I go, I'm not even mad.
Guest:I go, I even understand that you had to do what you had to do the way you had to do it.
Guest:I go, the only thing that I can't do is if you want to continue to talk to me, you have to apologize for the way you did it, and that's it.
Guest:Otherwise, good luck with yourself, and I'm sorry about Geraldo, and see you later.
Guest:The next day, called me up with the most heartfelt sorry that I could have ever gotten.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Mark, I never thought in a million years I was ever going to get it.
Guest:He's like, you're right, I'm sorry.
Guest:No defense, no nothing.
Marc:And now you've let it go.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I don't care anymore.
Guest:I'm working at Gotham on Wednesday.
Guest:I'm headlining there on Wednesday.
Guest:It was the best thing that ever happened to me, honestly.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:So I don't get... Why would I be mad?
Marc:I guess I should make it clear that he owns Gotham, and that's why that's that story.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He owns a comedy club.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I think that that actual letting go thing... Ugh.
Guest:Plus, what the fuck was I doing?
Guest:What am I doing with him?
Guest:What am I doing with a guy who's that emotional that he's gonna move out of me when I'm waving?
Guest:No, no, I get that.
Marc:But how do you, like, you know, I still have some trouble with that where, you know, if I'm brokenhearted, I've got some of that ache.
Marc:That, like, you know, to honor that anger.
Marc:Like, at that moment where you said, no, it's not gonna be like that.
Marc:You know, because basically you said, I'm still angry.
Marc:I don't accept...
Guest:Not I'm still angry.
Guest:It's just there's a way you can't treat me like that and then be my friend.
Guest:Yes, my value as a person.
Guest:That's what happened.
Guest:My value as a person.
Guest:I'm valuable as a person.
Guest:I don't just skim over things.
Marc:But I'm surprised that I find that when I think that I've moved through things that when they're irritated, they're right there again.
Guest:I'm still mad.
Guest:Well, because society doesn't allow you to have...
Marc:But how do you truly let something go?
Guest:Because you got to go through it.
Guest:I'm telling you, I was at my friend's house after Chris did it.
Guest:And Chris was telling everybody else what's the lies.
Guest:I mean, it was crazy, however, because he was covering.
Guest:He didn't think that I was going to never talk to him again.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think he thought I was going to go decorate his new apartment for him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which I would have done in the past.
Marc:Anything I could do.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Let me give you a hug.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I was at my friend's house and I was so mad.
Guest:And my therapist, because he was fucking with my career at one point too, like just to cover his own.
Guest:And my therapist was like, Sue, you tell everybody what happened because you can't mess with your career.
Guest:And I was with my friend from the South and she's like, Sue, you're acting like a scorned woman.
Guest:And I was like, I am a fucking scorned woman.
Guest:I was like, I let myself be as... It's almost like...
Guest:You have to admit to how bad it is in order to feel the... I feel like society, we're always like, oh, it wasn't that bad.
Guest:Oh, I don't care.
Marc:Well, yeah, they expect you.
Marc:It's like, you should be over it by now.
Marc:Who the fuck are you?
Marc:No.
Marc:I can't deal with that.
Marc:Like, you know, you should be over this by now because it's been this long.
Marc:It's like, this is a life-defining thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, there's no... And that's just what people say because they don't want to be your friend.
Guest:No, they don't want to waste... Yeah, have to support you, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Guest:I have a guy friend going through that right now.
Guest:He broke up with his girlfriend.
Guest:He is fucking leveled.
Guest:She left him and married another guy because he wouldn't marry.
Guest:He's leveled.
Guest:And he's like, none of my guy friends, they just told me it was fine.
Guest:I'm like, because they don't want to waste the time talking to you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They don't want to deal with you.
Marc:I mean, that's the real sadness of the whole thing is that all that bullshit.
Marc:It's like, come on, get over it.
Marc:It's like, can't, you know, no one has the emotional fortitude rarely in your friendship.
Marc:Like, I've been that guy and you've been that person.
Marc:When you get left, I mean, you find three or four people that you can call every fucking day.
Guest:I called them.
Guest:Mark, I had a list of people from seven o'clock at night till seven o'clock in the morning.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I kept calling.
Guest:You don't want to be by yourself.
Guest:And I had to talk.
Guest:I don't do anything else.
Marc:And you just got to be nice to them and rotate them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it's when they had to go.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's so funny.
Guest:When they had to go, I was like, I understand.
Guest:I'm a lot right now.
Marc:I got another person.
Marc:I got backup.
Guest:and you know what I do now for that same guy that same guy now he instant messaged me all day and I totally am there for him because I just remember but that's what I'm talking about that's why we used to fist fight that's why people would pick on each other because they saw the vulnerability and they couldn't tolerate it in themselves and that's where the freedom has come for me now I understand I'm a human being and so I have to take such good care I never wanted to have to do that I didn't want to say that things bothered me or that I wanted to be all fine and that's how it's all perverted you push down your natural impulses and it comes out perverted uh huh
Guest:Which we could get into a whole philosophical conversation about how we do it personally and then it comes out on the earth.
Guest:Yeah, and it's all that fear.
Guest:It's all that fear.
Guest:And I'm not, and people literally, I'm not fucking around now.
Guest:Like anybody can sit with me and be like, Sue's not lying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like she's totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in a second I can.
Guest:No, I feel that.
Guest:I can take care of myself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I can say, hey, and I can do it with my humor, which I've always been able to do.
Marc:Did you go visit my ex-wife while you were here?
Marc:No.
Okay.
Marc:You talk to her?
Guest:Sometimes.
Guest:I'm so happy you let me come on your show.
Marc:No, I didn't mean to bring that up.
Marc:I do that sometimes.
Marc:But the weird thing about that is the issue with that is I know that by holding on to whatever anger I have, if it's still there, obviously I get why everything went the way it went.
Marc:And I don't begrudge her her life at all.
Marc:But there's something about holding this because I know if I saw her that the possibility of me just like breaking down crying would be that would be what would happen.
Marc:I wouldn't be like, no, fuck you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'd just be like, it's just that yearning for like, you know, why can't you just, you know, love me or accept me because I pushed her away all that time.
Marc:And I would I would probably still enter the same dynamic.
Guest:But isn't that funny that you can't just say, you know what I did, like that level of acceptance that that would take, but you would be free if you did.
Marc:I'm almost there.
Guest:It's cool.
Guest:But it takes a long time to surrender.
Guest:Like people always like, let it go.
Guest:It's like it takes years and years and years and years to surrender.
Guest:You do it a little at a time because control, we think we're like, you think you're protecting yourself with your control.
Guest:You're actually repelling.
Marc:No, absolutely.
Marc:And the weird thing about surrender is I can feel it sometimes and I can see the possibility of it, but it must be terrifying on some level.
Guest:It was for a long time.
Guest:My insides are tight now, so I'm not as scared.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I pretty close to lost everything.
Marc:I mean, you know, when that marriage fell apart, I mean, I was fucking devastated.
Marc:But I can't say that in all areas of my life that I've handled it very well.
Marc:I mean, I think that professionally and psychologically I have, but emotionally I'm still a fucking disaster.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Do you have a relationship?
Guest:Do I?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Marc:And you don't miss it?
Marc:No.
Guest:I got a lot of guy attention.
Guest:That's the one thing that I didn't realize.
Guest:Like now I'm aware of it.
Marc:Do you date?
Guest:Yeah, lots.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:Well, you do that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I just haven't found anybody that I want to be.
Guest:I want a kind guy.
Guest:That's what I realized.
Guest:I want a genuinely guy who's kind.
Guest:Everybody always asks me what I want.
Guest:That's what I want.
Marc:So I guess I'm out.
Guest:Why?
Marc:I'm kind, but I'm crazy.
Guest:I don't mind crazy.
Marc:Crazy can get a little ugly.
Guest:And I think if you're trying, I don't think anybody's going to be perfectly kind.
Marc:No, you'd just be annoyed by that.
Marc:You'd be like, come on.
Marc:Yeah, no, I can't take that.
Guest:Well, that's what the whole, my whole show, my show is about hope, but it's done in such a fucking hilariously dark, like,
Marc:Now, what's the future of this show?
Guest:Because I don't know when this will be on, but I mean, is there... You can go to SueCostello.com, and I put up... I do it myself right now, so I put up the dates all the time there.
Guest:So SueCostello.com, you can follow.
Guest:It's called Minus 32 Million Words.
Guest:I'm going to bring it back out here.
Guest:I just have to find a place.
Guest:So all I wanted to do was get it up the night after the fighter and just get it done.
Guest:I had a bunch of people.
Guest:Jack McGee, the guy who played the father in the fighter, who I had no idea was even coming.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He was like, Sue, are you fucking kidding me?
Guest:He's like, I'm going to tell all the big leagues I've been rubbing elbows with at the Oscars about the show.
Guest:He's like, are you fucking kidding me?
Guest:I go, it's just a little something I put together over the past 10 years.
Guest:So I'm psyched.
Marc:That whole crew was so organic that all the actors in that movie.
Guest:I have to say that's a testament to David too.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, he's just, he's so, and he's smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He sees things five years before everybody else sees them.
Guest:So his ability to have to try to communicate to people in a way that they can hear it and get it done.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I was just amazed at the subtlety of the performances around that juggernaut of Christian Bale and everything, that there was a naturalness to all of it.
Marc:I mean, Melissa Leo was like, I never really noticed her before, and I was like, who the fuck is that?
Guest:And I have to say, it's him.
Guest:I'm telling you, we shot a lot more crack stuff.
Guest:They didn't put it in.
Guest:And that's to his credit, too, because it was enough.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that was actually turned out to be sort of a comic relief that like there must have been a choice there because I noticed that the movie has two two personalities.
Marc:There's an independent feel, but he knew he was dealing with a Hollywood story.
Marc:It was a legitimate Hollywood story.
Marc:It was a happy ending.
Marc:And it was written as almost a classic fighter movie.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:But he had to bring his own signature to it, so he had a lot of that handheld single camera stuff.
Marc:But it was very clear that when Christian Bale jumps into the garbage, that this is the comic moment.
Guest:Can I tell you, he did that because there was a scene that I shot that it was the end of the day.
Guest:We were in the crack house for 14 hours.
Guest:And there were a couple of times where people had to shoot it where they had to do tons of takes, where it's very stressful.
Guest:Because you know they're wasting money and everything.
Guest:So it's the end of the day.
Guest:And they're like, martini shot, martini shot.
Guest:And I'm like, what's that?
Guest:And they're like, that's the end of the day where they all go and get martinis.
Guest:And I'm like, I wonder who has to do that.
Guest:I'm glad I'm not that person that can shoot it a bunch of times.
Guest:And all of a sudden you hear, Sue, get in here.
Guest:I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.
Guest:He's like, come here.
Guest:You're going to look out the window.
Guest:You're going to say this.
Guest:You're going to do a banana walk.
Guest:You're going to walk away.
Guest:And it happened to be the line where I said, he did it again, he did it again.
Guest:But he took it out and put Kristen jumping again.
Guest:He put the physicality in it, so he knows what he's doing.
Marc:Yeah, he needed that second beat.
Marc:Because that second beat established it as funny.
Guest:Right, he saw it that day to have that in the can that I said that in case the other thing didn't come up to him or whatever.
Guest:He's just brilliant.
Marc:Well, you're brilliant.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And it was sweet talking to you.
Guest:Thank you for having me.
Guest:I mean it, because I didn't know if you would ever have me on it.
Marc:And I'm so happy that you got your shit together and things are looking up.
Guest:Yeah, with love.
Marc:Okay, with love.
Guest:I don't want to scare you too much, but... Okay, I'm working on it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:All right, bye.
Guest:Bye.
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:That was Sue Costello.
Marc:I don't even think I'd do the accent rap.
Marc:Wasn't that lovely?
Marc:Wasn't she lovely?
Marc:Okay, here's one other thing I want to mention.
Marc:You know our theme song was written by my buddy, John Montagna.
Marc:He composed it specifically for us, and now I've been getting some requests for ringtones.
Marc:Now, what you can do, and if you want to have the WTF theme as your ringtone, you can go to johnmontagna.com, J-O-H-N-M-O-N-T-A-G-N-A.com.
Marc:You can get the widget there and it'll take you to the ringtone.
Marc:It's a buck and a quarter.
Marc:Or else you can text one word, John Montagna, and then WTF.com.
Marc:looks like john montagna one word space wtf caps to 69937 and you can get it sent directly to your phone so if you dig the theme song and you want it to be a ringtone that's how you can do it also go
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTFPod needs.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
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Marc:The Robin Williams, the Louis C.K., the Judd Apatow, the David Tell.
Marc:What else?
Marc:JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:Do that.
Marc:PunchlineMagazine.com.
Marc:Do that.
Marc:Go to the App Store.
Marc:Get the WTF app.
Marc:Get all those original episodes.
Marc:If you upgrade to the Premium, you can stream them and listen to them.
Marc:Wow, this is a mouthful.
Marc:All right, fucking pisser.
Marc:I'll see you later.
Guest:Screw.