Episode 1677 - Tom Scharpling
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast how are you doing how how how can i help what can i do to what what what do you need is there are you okay i oh my god
Marc:Ah, what a time we're living in.
Marc:What a time we are living in.
Marc:It makes me want to, you know, I think, you know, sometimes there was a time where poetry had a tremendous impact.
Marc:And I guess there's an argument to be made that a lot of things are poetry, you know, music, some writing, ad copy stuff.
Marc:But there was a time, I think, and there probably are still poets that do this, where you're trying to crunch the big equations, the existential, the philosophical, the mystical, the personal.
Marc:There was a time where poetry was sort of the mathematics of eternity and trying to wrap your brain around it.
Marc:And sometimes I think...
Marc:You know, maybe that's what we need is a little poetry just to, you know, frame things in a way we can understand.
Marc:So now I will read to you The Second Coming by William Butler Yates.
Marc:turning and turning in the widening gyre the falcon cannot hear the falconer things fall apart the center cannot hold mere anarchy is loosed upon the world the blood-dimmed tide is loosed and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity
Marc:Surely some revelation is at hand.
Marc:Surely the second coming is at hand.
Marc:The second coming.
Marc:Hardly are those words out when a vast image of spiritus mundi troubles my sight somewhere in the sands of the desert, a shape with a lion body and the head of a man, a gaze.
Marc:blank and pitiless as the sun is moving its slow thighs while all about it real shadows of the indignant desert birds the darkness drops again but now i know that twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle and what rough beast its hour come round at last slouches towards bethlehem to be born
Marc:Yeah, that's a nice... I hope you're having coffee.
Marc:I think that's a nice way to start the day.
Marc:I do want to say this in terms of the center not holding, is that violence...
Marc:never the answer.
Marc:Violence begets violence.
Marc:And, uh, man, just untethered times.
Marc:And, uh, yeah, I hope you're doing okay.
Marc:Today I talked to my friend, Tom Sharpling.
Marc:Uh, he's the host of the best show and someone who's deeply connected to the history of this show.
Marc:He's been on eight times before, and we did six separate bonus episodes with him called the Mark and Tom show.
Marc:Uh,
Marc:He's celebrating the 25th anniversary of doing the best show, and he'll be on the road doing some live shows to commemorate the milestone.
Marc:Always good to talk to Tom.
Marc:Good friends.
Marc:I've had some weird...
Marc:revelations and experiences about the past and about friendship lately.
Marc:I'll try to get into it.
Marc:Maybe, maybe I'll get into it, but I do want to say this.
Marc:I want to thank a couple of people actually.
Marc:Well, I want to thank Dr. Bronner's Dr. Bronner's soap all in one soap because I, you know, I talked to the Bronner that's in charge and
Marc:now the the grandson and i love the company and this isn't a paid plug and i have a lot of their soap and they've always been supportive of the show and i think they're a very decent and uh uh well-sourced company that are always trying to be proactive and progressive and do the right thing and i was reminded of this because uh
Marc:I have been using that soap since I was in college.
Marc:And I realized, you know, I reached out to the guy over there who's in charge of their kind of public relations.
Marc:And I just wanted to thank him because I realized maybe like five or six years ago,
Marc:If not more, they sent me a big box of those soaps and I've been using them like I haven't had to buy soap and I've been using Bronner's.
Marc:I feel like my whole life and it just towards the end of the show here.
Marc:I just wanted to thank thank them for keeping me clean.
Marc:The documentary about me, Are We Good, opens on October 3rd in New York and Los Angeles with special screenings around the country on October 5th and October 8th.
Marc:Go to arewegoodmarin.com to see where it's playing and get tickets.
Marc:And hopefully, look, if people go, it'll be in more theaters.
Marc:And you can still get in on the Kickstarter presale for our graphic novel, WTF is a Podcast, written and illustrated by Box Brown.
Marc:You can go to z2comics.com slash WTF for that.
Marc:And look, you know, I've been a little aggravated.
Marc:I am starting to realize, as I've said before, that there's something at the core of me, or maybe I didn't tell you this.
Marc:I think I actually said it at a meeting.
Marc:I've been going back to the secret meetings a bit just to make sure I stay in dialogue with what is at my core now that I have time to sit with it.
Marc:And a couple of things have happened.
Marc:And some of it you'll hear in this conversation with Tom in terms of how far back we go and his experience meeting me and his experience watching me, which we've talked about before.
Marc:But I realize that, you know, when you're...
Marc:untethered, intense, insecure.
Marc:If you have a sort of wobbly sense of self or self-loathing, there's a profound selfishness to it.
Marc:It's not entitlement, but there's, because you're so insulated in your own thoughts about who you are and what you're going through, it's rare to really understand or hear or engage with
Marc:other people's perception of you.
Marc:Because what you're thinking about yourself, if you're insecure, resentful, jealous, self-pitying, I mean, you're just trying to get by, but you're full of this horrendous negative self-talk and feelings about who you are.
Marc:And that becomes sort of the external personality.
Marc:Is you...
Marc:trying to manage those feelings within yourself to engage with the world.
Marc:But there is this thing happening now, again, with some of the time I'm having and the big transition I'm in and the age I'm at, where it's kind of like, wow, this is still fucking here?
Marc:You know, this core part of me is still fucking here?
Marc:I mean, it's crazy.
Marc:And I had a conversation with somebody from my past that really kind of
Marc:shed light on something that I didn't, I don't know, I just didn't realize it.
Marc:I had lunch with an old friend of mine, a buddy of mine from college.
Marc:We were pretty close.
Marc:We were very close.
Marc:We were kind of best friends for a few years.
Marc:And he was just sort of reflecting on his life and reflecting on whatever that time was back in the day.
Marc:And his sense of who I was
Marc:how he felt about who I was, was completely fucking surprising to me.
Marc:And I realized, like, I don't know, I had a couple of realizations, mostly that, you know, how in my own fucking head am I at all times?
Marc:But, I mean, again, I was 20, 22, you know, 19.
Marc:And I was scrambling.
Marc:All I was doing was trying to figure out who the fuck I was.
Marc:I was trying to, you know, be...
Marc:unique or different.
Marc:I was trying to wrap my brain around, you know, art and film and poetry and writing.
Marc:And I was trying to sort of dress in a way that I thought kind of had something unique about it, you know, stuff you do in your 20s.
Marc:But I was at the core totally insecure and not confident in a lot of ways.
Marc:But I was persistent in this quest to find myself, not find God, not find some spiritual answer, but just to fill my head with stuff to make me smarter and understand things and to express myself and just to figure out who the fuck am I?
Marc:Who the fuck am I?
Marc:And now at this age, at the core, I realize I'm this aggravated, still sort of resentful, kind of insecure guy that somehow, despite all that, pulled enough together.
Marc:And I'm not saying that this is an unusual disposition for a creative person to have.
Marc:But my perception of him back then was that this guy's got his shit together.
Marc:He knows how to move through the world.
Marc:He gets things done.
Marc:He's a creative guy.
Marc:He writes.
Marc:We both like film.
Marc:But I thought he totally had it together and knew where he was going and what he wanted to do and what the plan was and what he was interested in.
Marc:Me, I was just like all over the fucking place trying to build a me.
Marc:So we're talking and he says, look, man, I thought you were cool, that you were creative, that you dress cool, that you liked all the right music.
Marc:And I just felt kind of not intimidated by that, but I was sort of in awe of you.
Marc:This is this guy for my entire life.
Marc:I was, in my mind, kind of competing with and desperately trying to be like.
Marc:And after 40 years, he tells me that his sense of me was something completely different than what I thought.
Marc:And I was also a draining fucking guy.
Marc:And I imagine I still am on some level.
Marc:I mean, I'm one of these people.
Marc:When I locked into a friend, you had to be all in.
Marc:You had you were my only friend.
Marc:I was demanding.
Marc:I was needy.
Marc:I was competitive.
Marc:But, you know, if we were friends, you know, you were it.
Marc:I know all this stuff about myself deep down and I've I've learned how to manage it.
Marc:But just the idea that someone's perception of me was so different than what I was experiencing even back then was kind of devastating and uplifting at the same time.
Marc:Because you just realize if you are in, look, I speak my mind a lot.
Marc:I do on stage here, whatever.
Marc:I try a lot of things.
Marc:And that quest for landing in myself or finding myself is pretty close to done, thank God, at almost 62 years old.
Marc:But I do realize that there is no way to know that.
Marc:Unless somebody tells you, and I'm talking about people who are close to you or respect you and obviously love you, how you are in their eyes.
Marc:Unless they tell you.
Marc:Look, I get a lot of shit from people sometimes if I say things online or wherever.
Marc:I get good shit from people who watch my work and they understand that.
Marc:But the people that are close to you.
Marc:have an entire different you in your head than you have in yours.
Marc:And I guess what bridges that gap is trust, you know, once you reveal as much as yourself as possible or you feel comfortable with and sort of share that vulnerability.
Marc:But you still just don't really...
Marc:You're unable to see yourself as others see you in your life.
Marc:And because my sense of myself or my perception of myself is so compromised by my motor brain and my fear and my insecurity, I assume that people think the same way about me and it keeps getting proven wrong.
Marc:And it's good because I might start believing it.
Marc:Anyway, I'm sorry.
Marc:I just guess I had to dump, as they say, in the recovery racket.
Marc:All right, so look, Tom Sharpling is here.
Marc:He'll be doing live stage shows with John Worcester to celebrate 25 years of The Best Show.
Marc:You can see these anniversary shows in Brooklyn, Philly, Los Angeles, and Chicago throughout October.
Marc:Go to thebestshow.net to find out more.
Marc:And this is me talking to my dear friend, Tom Sharpling.
Thank you.
Marc:I had no idea that, you know, I had sort of landed a bomb.
Marc:Because I just don't see it.
Marc:Like, I thought, like, I'm barely getting any pushback at all.
Marc:This is amazing.
Marc:It's because my algorithm is designed for my brain.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I saw, you know, Henchquiff made some comment.
Marc:Yeah, and it's weird about the pushback from those.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:But, like, what bothers me is that he was lying.
Yeah.
Marc:Hinchcliffe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's just like he was doing that blustery Howard Stern shit.
Marc:I did Kill Tony once because he wouldn't stop pestering me.
Marc:And it was when it was in the belly room at the comedy store.
Marc:And I didn't like it then.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was not like.
Marc:I'm a regular guest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then he insinuated that when he's in town, I avoid the comedy store.
Marc:Like, why would I do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For that guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why would I avoid that guy?
Guest:No, that's.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:The way it was positioned, first of all, he used the phrase comedy content.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:These guys show up every two years, yeah, doing real specials.
Guest:He said they come out of their hole or whatever, and they have, what, an hour-long special?
Guest:Right, that they worked on for a long time.
Marc:I'm churning out garbage every day.
Guest:Yeah, I'm kidding.
Guest:But just the idea, like, we do comedy content.
Guest:It's like, why would you refer to what you make as content?
Guest:That's like being in advertising.
Yeah.
Marc:It's totally that.
Marc:I mean, you know, I've been talking about that a bit on stage, about the idea of when we were younger, and certainly you, because in the world of music, it's like sellout, that meant something, and it was bad.
Marc:Yeah, it actually was a label that you could not get off.
Guest:Yeah, and you certainly didn't want it on you.
Guest:No, I mean, I remember like the Del Fuegos got drilled for a beer commercial.
Marc:It's a Miller commercial.
Marc:Can you imagine now?
Marc:They still talk about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, not actively, but I talked to both of the Fuegos.
Marc:I talked to both of the Zanes brothers.
Marc:40 years ago.
Marc:But I was in Boston when that happened.
Marc:And it was like, what?
Marc:And then all of a sudden, I remember even when you started to hear like classic hits on commercials by bands you respected.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How much fucking money could they need?
Marc:I know.
Marc:And then all of a sudden it just morphed into that's the goal is selling it.
Guest:It suddenly shifted.
Guest:It really is strange when you think of like there used to be this phenomenon where –
Guest:Oh, well, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Brad Pitt don't do commercials in America.
Guest:In America.
Guest:They do them in Japan.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In Japan, they'll do a commercial for a soda or something.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because it never comes over here.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Imagine that concept now.
Guest:It's just like the Super Bowl is nothing but a parade of the most famous celebrities.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shilling for something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And it just and also to speak to to content is that the the the goal is to create a brand that is you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You are the brand and then other brands will you know, you'll run other brands through you.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it's synergy because you've sacrificed any sense of humanity or autonomy to be this brand.
Marc:When people started saying things like, well, that's on brand, I'm like, what are you fucking talking about?
Marc:I wish I knew my brand.
Marc:People were trying to put me in a box for decades.
Marc:And now I've sort of landed on something, but I'd never see it as a brand.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think you and you...
Guest:were told what your brand was.
Guest:Yeah, for a while.
Marc:You didn't design it.
Marc:No, and it never fit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But also, like, I remember when I started this show, the idea of doing advertising was, I thought it would ruin it.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like when we started WTF, I'm like, well, there's no way to make money.
Marc:And what do we got to fucking advertise for?
Marc:This is we're doing a real thing here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We don't need ads.
Marc:And then when we started getting the sex toy ads, we're like, well, that's kind of cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and then the JustCoffee.coop, oh, I just shit my pants.
Marc:We own that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's the limit, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then Audible creeped in.
Marc:I'm like, no, no, no.
Guest:Sometimes, I really, my podcast consumption is almost zero at this point.
Marc:I never listen to any of them.
Guest:I just, I don't, it's hard enough for me to hear the one I do when I do it.
Marc:Do you listen to yours?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Do you edit it?
Guest:No, I mean when I do it.
Guest:I just even being there for it.
Guest:I almost wish I could AI my way out of doing my own show.
Yeah.
Guest:Give it a year.
Guest:I know.
Marc:But I mean, like when you started, like on the radio, so none of us knew this would ever happen.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:There was no sense of any of that happening.
Marc:And there was a freedom that you found.
Marc:And when you had to adapt, I mean, what were the first things that were problematic for you when you realized, like, well, radio's not...
Marc:good anymore.
Guest:Well, I was always, me being on a non-commercial station, it was just understood that the pact was you will never make a nickel doing this because you're here to raise money to keep the station operating.
Guest:So I did this show and it was called The Best Show on WFMU, which was
Guest:That was me taunting the other DJs on the station because I was so unpopular there.
Guest:And then this jerk just calls his show the best show on WFMU.
Guest:Like, who are you?
Guest:But I did it.
Guest:But it's almost like you start the discussion then when you do a thing like that.
Guest:When you say, well, it's the best show on WFMU.
Guest:People would be like, well, it's not the best show on WFMU.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:But other people, I think it is the best show.
Guest:But if I call it, like, if you do, it's like the way The Clash were just like, the only band that matters.
Guest:And now people are like, well, they're not the only band that matters.
Guest:Like, you're actually discussing them at the highest possible level because you framed where the discussion is going to take place.
Guest:But I was doing that.
Guest:There was, the show grew in.
Guest:The first two years, nobody cared.
Guest:Everybody, the listeners, we used to play records, stop talking.
Guest:But then it just found its audience and it popped.
Guest:Once podcasting in 2005, it just exponentially found people.
Guest:And the show grew and grew and grew.
Guest:2005?
Guest:2005 is when we started podcasting.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were doing that with the first group.
Marc:Because what if we started in 2009?
Marc:So there was nobody podcasting.
Guest:No, look, for that, up until like 2010, it was still just like this wildfire.
Guest:It's like the kind of thing where you drop a bag of flour from a plane to say this is my property now.
Marc:Like when they're claiming stuff in Florida.
Marc:But it was for the fans.
Marc:Like you knew enough to make it available in a way that wasn't beholden to a time slot.
Marc:That's exactly it.
Marc:It suddenly freed the thing up to be.
Marc:Because Brendan was listening forever.
Marc:And, you know, when I finally started, you know, hearing about you from Brendan, I just thought like, you know, well, this is I'm excluded from whatever this world is.
Marc:That's the story of my life.
Guest:I'm either the one being excluded or the one excluding or somebody thinking I'm excluding them or I'm actually getting excluded.
Marc:Well, I didn't know that, like, you know, I had built this, and I talked to you about this before, but I had built this idea of you, the mythic Sharpling, who had his own little alt-comedy universe, and I was not of that ilk.
Marc:But Brendan'd been listening to it forever, and he always says that, you know, you provided him a template through which to understand how podcasting could free us.
Guest:My goal was...
Guest:I found my people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're doing the 10,000 people rule?
Guest:Yeah, I'm just going to do... I didn't even know what the numbers were.
Guest:The only way I could gauge listeners or anything like that was through the fundraising.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I could just see how the show was growing every year.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:When we did the station fundraising things every March, I could just see, oh, we made 30,000 more than we did last year.
Guest:So it's just like I could see the growth with that.
Guest:I just was like...
Guest:these people, I have people, they like, they seem to like what I'm doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it honestly boiled down to like, I would think of like three people doing the show.
Guest:Like if they're, if I can make these three friends of mine laugh, I just have to assume the rest of it's going to take care of itself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just, and it, it did, but it was this thing where I was just like, I'm, I'm putting everything into this show with,
Guest:That didn't even have the possibility of making money.
Guest:But there was such a purity to it then, though.
Guest:That's how I felt when I started.
Guest:Because it was like, I'm truly doing this for the love of the game, the way people talk about it.
Marc:But also, you dictate the whole thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's nobody, you know, there's no guy going, hey, we think you should turn down the... That's exactly it, too.
Marc:And, like, it's all on you, and you're all in.
Marc:Because I remember at the beginning, in the garage, like, in 2009, it was like, we didn't know what we were doing, but we knew that, like, it was something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that no one was telling us what to do.
Marc:But I just think it's very funny that because I've been thinking about that a lot lately where it was really a moral crisis for me as to whether we do ads.
Marc:And then it was like then it became for me it was sort of like do we need to talk to actors?
Guest:I remember it felt seismic when you would expand the range of who was a guest on your show.
Guest:It actually felt like, oh, that's a shift.
Guest:I remember when you first started having musicians on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was suddenly like, who's like, like Wayne Coyne would have been one of the first ones, right?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Or I remember, I remember like, because you've been a listener and you've been supportive and you've been on the show a fucking eight times and we did like six Mark and Tom shows.
Marc:We don't even know what we talked about anymore.
Marc:There is, but there is an area that I want to talk to you about that, you know, is not historical, but-
Marc:But nonetheless, you know, you've been part of the show since the beginning as a listener and as a guest.
Marc:And I don't know, was it Wayne?
Marc:I feel like I got very, like for me, because like I always thought you were like the cool guy and that, you know, that your world was cool.
Marc:You know, because like for me, I'm like, you know, always, you know, late to the party with everything.
Marc:You know, like I started listening to Black Sabbath in my 40s.
Marc:So...
Marc:I knew they existed, but I just assumed it wasn't for me.
Marc:So it's like there are certain elements of me that are stunted.
Marc:But I just remember, like, you know, when I had to have Ty Siegel on.
Marc:Like, I remember, like, just like, you know, I wonder if I can get Michael Cronin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you think I can get him over here?
Guest:Well, the thing is, even, like, you have Michael Cronin, you have Ty Siegel, you have John Dwyer, all these.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You realize they're here.
Guest:You realize almost everybody at the Strada, they're just hanging out.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's just like, hey, what are you doing on Wednesday?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, they're down the street.
Marc:I'm not doing anything.
Marc:Siegel used to work at a fucking record store once a week.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I thought these were mythic people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:With big things.
Guest:But it even goes way up the line.
Guest:There's like...
Guest:Famous people, it's still Wednesday for them, and if they don't have anything to do— If they're not on set, they're just sitting around making their assistant miserable.
Marc:Why didn't you get the good lettuce?
Marc:But you're right.
Marc:When I started talking to musicians, that was a big deal.
Marc:And then we were recording them in our very raw way.
Marc:But really, I didn't know how to evolve the show.
Marc:And it was all very nerve-wracking.
Marc:Because I'm like, by and large, I assume that actors, not great interviews.
Marc:And then eventually it's like, well, dude, you're going to have to talk to some of these people.
Marc:And then you figure out a way to do it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Did you feel like at a point, because the thing just grew and the access to people saying yes became a lot easier?
Guest:It's kind of just like a snowball going down the hill, and suddenly it's like...
Guest:At its worst, were you worried that it's like, I'm just like Byron Allen here on one of the many stops on the tour?
Marc:Always my worry.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To the point where I don't know if people even would remember me.
Marc:I still have that.
Marc:Because I know from doing these things, when I see people who have been on the show, I'm like, they probably, you know, they were probably just moving through stuff.
Marc:But also, from the beginning, there was that horrendous anger that, like, you know, I didn't set out to be a fucking talk show host.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my insistence on doing 15 minutes of loose rambling was just to make sure that I planted my little flag.
Marc:Yeah, and not just like, hey, I'm like... Yeah, yeah, today on the show I'm talking to you.
Marc:And then all those emails of people are sort of like, let the guest talk.
Marc:I'm like, no, no, I will not.
Marc:I will interrupt freely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Because it's not an interview.
Guest:It's a conversation.
Guest:It's the most basic...
Guest:The most basic delineation is that you do conversations here, you don't do interviews.
Guest:Yeah, and I grew to accept all that.
Guest:Now who gives a fuck?
Guest:Well, because the thing that happened is suddenly every one of those people was just like...
Guest:Well, I think I'll do a show now.
Marc:But going back to like, okay, so when you did, because I want to talk about the evolution of this thing that we have become involved with.
Marc:So you started doing the podcast, but it was just a radio show on the podcast until you moved, really, right?
Guest:Yeah, it was pretty much.
Guest:The show was live on Tuesdays, and then it would stream.
Guest:You could listen to it on the terrestrial radio.
No video.
Guest:No video.
Guest:And then we would just edit out the music and put it up as a podcast the next day because music's this... You got to pay for it.
Guest:You got to pay for it.
Guest:And licensing, we're not going to do that.
Guest:So it was just available in a few different ways.
Guest:You could listen live.
Guest:You could listen on your computer.
Guest:You could download it as a podcast.
Guest:And it was that way for...
Guest:A very long time.
Guest:You started like 25 years ago, right?
Guest:Yeah, this is the 25th anniversary of me doing the best show.
Guest:Talking.
Guest:Talking.
Guest:Sometimes I think about if somebody had sat me down and said, put a contract in front of me.
Guest:This is a 25-year contract.
Guest:You're going to do one of these every week for 25 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And for the first 15, it's going to be for free.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would just be like, this is the worst deal I've ever heard in my life.
Guest:So the first two thirds of it, I'm doing it for free.
Guest:And...
Guest:And it's just like, but it was one week at a time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then suddenly I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, we're in it.
Guest:How am I this far in this?
Guest:And it's just, it has become, I am like one and the same with the show now.
Guest:The show just, there's a point, like the show is just happening in my head.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then just once a week I go and I kind of just say it to people.
Guest:You just...
Marc:You have the conversation going, and then you send the mic, and that's the part of the conversation that comes out.
Guest:For three hours, it's like, all right, let's get all this out, because that's what I do with this information.
Guest:I say it at the end of it.
Guest:It's ready to say.
Guest:And then I just drive home, and the process has already begun again.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know that... I find that for me, because it's all...
Marc:Self-generated, but it's me in my little spiral of me.
Marc:Like if I don't add things in, like you seem to be a better consumer than me and you're reflecting, you have things that you're looking outside of yourself at and passing judgment on.
Marc:I don't seem to be in any sort of consistent loop of putting new stuff into my head.
Marc:So it's just me kind of like when I look at the last three specials, I'm like, all right, well, I've done three specials, and I think I've evolved the ideas that are always ruminating in my head as far as they can go.
Marc:So I don't know if you have the experience where I get on these mics sometimes, and there's part of me that's sort of like, I got nothing to say at all.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And then I'll have to dig down and find it.
Marc:And then, you know, I got to get worked up about something.
Marc:But then when I get done with that kind of stuff, I start to realize, like, I don't know if you're really that worked up about that.
Marc:And, you know, maybe you don't have to.
Guest:Michael Jordan would do this thing because he was, like, the most competitive human ever.
Yeah.
Guest:He would, in an NBA season, the regular season is 82 games.
Guest:That's a long time to get up for every game.
Guest:So he would manufacture slights and insults.
Guest:If somebody said anything, he would just be like, oh, yeah?
Guest:Well, I'm going to fucking torch you tonight.
Guest:And they're just like, no, no, no, no, I didn't.
Guest:It was not.
Guest:I didn't insult you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would destroy these scenes because he'd be like, you think I'm sucking?
Guest:I never said you suck.
Guest:But he had to play these games with his head to get up for every game.
Guest:Otherwise, the motivation is what he needed.
Guest:So he had to literally create false fights.
Guest:Fights.
Marc:Yeah, but for me, the problem is that I'm creating false fights with myself.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:There's a constant, I'm just literally like, you fuck.
Guest:How do you live with yourself, piece of garbage?
Guest:When you talk like that, it's like, I think on my show like a month or so ago, I was trying to talk, ask the audience, what are the things when you talk to yourself?
Guest:What do you say?
Guest:Because the things I say to myself, it's just like...
Guest:Oh, what are we going to do?
Guest:Every day, it's like, what are we going to do?
Guest:What am I going to say to this guy?
Guest:I was just like, but I'm talking to myself.
Guest:I'm like, you dumb bitch.
Guest:What are you going to do today?
Guest:And I'm like, this is how I talk to myself.
Guest:And nobody had like, people are like, I don't talk that way.
Guest:I thought it was like, well, everybody talks to themselves that way.
Guest:And it's like, they don't.
Guest:They really don't.
Guest:I started to realize I'm alone with a lot of the like.
Guest:We're inner Michael Jordaning ourselves.
Guest:We're rampant.
Guest:We're ramping up.
Guest:Yeah, we're ramping up.
Guest:And then I'm like, you fucks, I'm going to show you all.
Guest:I was like, who am I arguing with?
Guest:I'm going to show you all?
Guest:What am I like?
Guest:Oh, you think I'm going to do that?
Marc:You think I'm going to do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't know if I feel that with the way you talk, but that's the inner monologue.
Marc:It gets me mourning, gets me going.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, that was, you know, half of my incentive was, you know, the arc of realizing that whatever beefs I thought I had with people were totally in my head.
Marc:That was a long and hard lesson to learn.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Ironically, now, though, they're not in your head.
Marc:Yeah, that's the big fear of, you know, not having Brendan...
Marc:To stop me from saying shit.
Marc:Like, you know, he'll just take shit out.
Marc:Now, like, I don't know.
Marc:I think if it were earlier in the podcast, me running around talking, you know, I just think Brendan's like, oh, my God.
Marc:What is he?
Marc:He can't be allowed to just go out there and talk freely on other shows.
Guest:It's going to start trouble.
Guest:No, it's... Look, I've been...
Guest:I can just say, watching you on this last run here has been, it's like, I've been ecstatic with it.
Marc:It's like, Luna Mark is back!
Guest:I'm just like...
Guest:Howie Mandel.
Guest:Howie Mandel.
Guest:It's like, all right, who's next?
Guest:He's going to go.
Guest:Who's he going?
Guest:Okay, Hinchcliffe.
Guest:He's getting him.
Guest:Bill Maher.
Guest:You got Bill Maher now.
Guest:I'm just like, yeah, he's getting them all.
Guest:He's getting them all.
Guest:A checklist.
Guest:It's like he's clearing the decks on this thing on the way out to where it's like, I said everything I needed to say goodbye.
Guest:It feels like you're building through just like,
Guest:I've established I hate you.
Guest:I don't respect you.
Guest:You were never funny.
Guest:And this is the best special I've ever done, and it's all in there.
Guest:Yeah, and it's just like, see you when I see you.
Guest:That sort of seems to be what's happening.
Guest:Yeah, and I think it's great, because when did it feel like you needed to address these things so directly?
Yeah.
Marc:I think because of the special, and I knew this, and I said this about the last one, maybe even the last two, but the last three specials, I'm like, this is the best work I'm going to do.
Marc:And in this one, I was relaxed.
Marc:I was focused.
Marc:I was able to articulate my politics with also taking the task, like-minded people.
Marc:But once I was able...
Marc:To sort of make the connection that this idea of anti-wokeness, which was the pet peeve of the comedy community, once that became the umbrella through which the administration was going to create policy to totally undermine democracy, I'm like, they're part of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they can't be separated from it.
Marc:And I knew it was coming.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It seemed to me that I could speak for my community, about my community and about politics simultaneously.
Marc:But also just I think what bothered me the most was that with this hijacking of pop culture and the hijacking of cultural entertainment in general, that's gone on with the sort of tribalization and and the push from right wing propagandists and and and the Austin group is that they and Rogan did this years ago.
Marc:That, you know, he put himself in the place to sort of be the guy who judges what is good comedy and what isn't.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That guy.
Marc:He's the gatekeeper.
Marc:That guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, now he's a gatekeeper, but he wasn't then.
Guest:He was like a... Comedy cop.
Guest:He was a comedy cop.
Guest:He was like Serpico.
Guest:And he's like... Right.
Guest:He's going on.
Guest:He's busting this one.
Guest:He's busting that one.
Guest:Like going up on stage with Mencia.
Guest:Well, canceling Mencia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, sure, there was intercomic problems around stealing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But once, you know, because of the army that he established that were not essentially comedy fans who they were feeding this idea of what real comedy is.
Marc:They're MMA fans.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's not, you know, they do not deserve the right to dictate what comedy is.
Marc:And because of the way culture works now and media and bubbles of media, I felt that, you know, there was a whole bunch of us, you know, who were not being represented, real comics who do interesting stuff that aren't just looking to, you know, charge up a bunch of morons.
Marc:And it's always been that way.
Marc:I got an email the other day from somebody who said, I was wrong about Hinchcliffe.
Marc:I saw a guy on there who is very autistic or something on the Kill Tony show.
Marc:And he went back at Donnell and, you know, he won.
Marc:And, you know, those guys don't get, you know, their shot in elitist show business.
Marc:So, you know, Tony's providing this stage for, you know, these people that wouldn't necessarily get their shot.
Marc:It's like, first of all, that's not true.
Marc:Comedy, if anything, there was always people that, you know, I remember people in wheelchairs, people with one arm, you know, people...
Guest:One of the earliest memories is Jerry Jewell doing stand-up and being like, oh, she's doing stand-up.
Marc:Comedy was always very forgiving.
Marc:But that just speaks to the fact that mainstream show business has kind of collapsed.
Marc:But...
Marc:But to answer your question, I realized that with the special, because I was more grounded and made a lot of decisions in that special that were very deliberate and studied and took me a long time to sort of balance, that I'm saying my piece here clearly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, in terms of.
Guest:No, there was no.
Guest:It was not blind items.
Guest:It was not.
Guest:You're not being cute and dancing around.
Guest:And that's what made it work for me, at least, is just that it was like, oh, no, no, you're like sink or swim.
Guest:You're just going to say it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just you'll you'll you'll accept.
Guest:Unlike a lot of these comedians, they don't want to.
Guest:They think the idea of they think the idea of somebody not liking what they do is canceling.
Guest:And having a problem, it's like, oh, you have an opinion, so I can have an opinion.
Guest:But we all have opinions.
Guest:The idea that, like, you weren't ducking it or trying to have it both ways with it.
Guest:It's just like, you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen, but you're going to say it out loud.
Marc:Yeah, because it's like...
Marc:It just, I've been saying it here for a long time.
Marc:And I didn't, like, honestly, when I did those other shows, when I did, like, you know, Soder, and I did Bobby, and Andrew, and then Andrew Show, and then, you know, Howie's or whatever, and Ryan Sickler's or whatever, I just wanted to do a comedy podcast to get my special out there.
Marc:But this happens every time after a special.
Marc:I can't see my way through yet to what would actually become another hour.
Marc:Or the idea of freeing me up from the podcast and also having the special done and having this time, I would like to see where my creativity can go untethered to me, which is why I'm going to focus on getting the movie made from Sam's book and try other stuff.
Marc:I'm a comic by...
Marc:by nature and by profession, but there is a part of me that feels like I said it.
Guest:Well, you're a jealous comic because you're a complete failure.
Guest:So, of course, you're looking up at all these great men who've accomplished all these things, and you've just been sucking.
Marc:Yeah, in the shadows.
Marc:No one's wanted anything you've ever done.
Marc:Yeah, that's the point of view of the other side.
Guest:Yeah, I just keep... That's the best part of, like, that we've talked about Elephant Graveyard off mic.
Guest:Like, I've watched it as if I'm, like, just watching a movie.
Guest:And it's like, I'm going to watch that movie again.
Guest:Yeah, again.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And... Suey eyes.
Guest:The suey eyes were just like...
Guest:Rest in peace.
Guest:But when he pointed out their defense is always, we were just jealous.
Guest:Oh, you're just jealous.
Guest:Of what?
Guest:This assumption that we're not making a living or something.
Guest:No, all I ever wanted, my goal in this was to make things and participate in things that I would want to see or hear.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if I can if I can pay my bills and actually call this my job, it's like that's that was all I ever wanted.
Guest:I never wanted anything more than that.
Marc:And I've got that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't even know what to do.
Marc:Like, you know, I do fine.
Marc:I do great.
Marc:But I don't like I don't think in terms of like, finally, I can buy the what?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:what like you know i buy a belt and i'm like this is nice but it's like like man these guys with the watches that's the one i that's the thing i got talked i got talked into this one by dean of course you know this is a speed master and it's fine but i was like i was just wearing you know seikos and stuff what do i care but it's a nice watch but you gotta wind it but when they're just like oh yeah this is the whole thing this is all of it yeah yeah
Marc:But I also think there's a sense that balance has to be tried.
Marc:We got to try to regain balance, you know, because we're in a world of shut the fuck up.
Marc:And, you know, it's like comedy is a very sort of diverse and nuanced and interesting.
Marc:And it's a stage where, you know, you can do whatever the fuck you want.
Marc:And just the fact that like, that's why I always refer to Maria Bamford and stuff, that the fact that these apes are
Marc:are dictating the idea that, or presenting the idea that this is what, we know what comedy is.
Marc:It's like, you don't, you're all saying the same fucking thing.
Marc:There isn't a goddamn, you know, intro.
Marc:All I know is like, there was clearly, and you said this before that, you know, all these things have an arc, but there was clearly a vulnerability because whatever happened, you know, between Elephant Graveyard and me and, and, you know, Joe realizing that, you know, he was on the hook, you know, it, it,
Marc:It's buckling a little bit.
Marc:And it's just – there's got to be a pleasure in that.
Guest:It just can't.
Guest:I really just feel like it can't sustain.
Guest:And if you look at the history of these things, people who are younger might not realize that, like –
Guest:In like 1988, 89, it felt like Andrew Dice Clay owned comedy.
Guest:Sam Kinison and Andrew Dice Clay were the bosses of comedy.
Guest:That's when I was a door guy.
Guest:I remember it well.
Guest:But it didn't feel like it was going to stop.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It felt like this is the way it's going to be now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then it stopped.
Yeah.
Marc:But now it's different, which is why Howie was wrong.
Marc:It's like, I think you're giving comics too much credit.
Marc:They're not doing comedy.
Marc:They're not doing it.
Marc:They're yammering on about this and that.
Marc:And now they're influencers.
Marc:And they're deciding that they're political spokesmen because their right has enabled them to create distraction and division.
Marc:And they eat it.
Marc:It's bait.
Marc:How the fuck could you be a free thinker if you're all talking about the same three things?
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's just that thing where it's like, trans, check.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Folk, check.
Guest:Immigrants, done.
Guest:Check.
Guest:Thanks, everybody.
Guest:And let me tell you about BetterHelp.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It really feels like what's going to happen now is... Right now, it's like the first part of 2001.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're waiting for the monolith to show up.
Guest:I'm always waiting for the monolith.
Guest:They're always just like... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They can touch it so they can finally stop being apes and evolve.
Guest:But like...
Guest:we're still in that part where the apes are just jumping around.
Marc:They're just jumping around.
Marc:One guy found a thing to hit the other guy with.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We're in that part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the monolith is late.
Guest:Spotify, like the Spotify monolith comes down.
Marc:But here's my question though, in terms of like, also along with what we're doing, because I don't know that I talked to you really, I mean, we did a talk about the book, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then,
Marc:But we talked about you got married and everything else, and you left Jersey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've been re-watching The Sopranos, so I'm in deep Jersey right now.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So good, right?
Marc:I can't.
Guest:There's still lines on The Sopranos I think about that are like when Tony was sad, and then Pauly Walnut is just like, he's like, Tony, you want me to send the kid to go get some baja fresh?
Yeah.
Guest:Like to try to cheer him up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like that's the most well-crafted, funniest line I've ever heard to have come out of this guy's mouth.
Guest:You want me to send the kid to get some Baja?
Guest:Like he doesn't know Baja.
Marc:Like I didn't realize until watching it this time.
Marc:This is my third time through, I think, that, you know, Pauly is like so dumb.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, he's like, he can't read, really.
Marc:He can't, you know, he dropped out of high school in ninth grade.
Marc:He's a little boy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's just, like, there's certain things that I'm noticing.
Marc:And truly, not unlike Breaking Bad, like, I don't think I fully realize just how quickly the empathy for Tony went away.
Marc:I mean, it's gone by the middle of season two.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you're still watching it.
Marc:He's a monster now.
Guest:And it's just like you're...
Guest:Yeah, it's such a tricky thing.
Guest:It's just like you're rooting for him, but are you rooting for him?
Guest:No, I don't know.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what I want to talk about, because this is like my concern, is that now that sort of mainstream show business in terms of
Marc:having a big public reach for interesting things, both on television and in movies, and that most of people are getting their entertainment from YouTube or podcasts, that I think what's happening
Marc:and it goes in line with this sort of anti-elite, anti-intellectual, anti-education, anti-science thing, is that just by virtue of people adapting to what's readily available, that the bar is being lowered probably permanently.
Marc:That people will no longer be able to realize what is brilliant and amazing, right?
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, people are definitely getting rewired now to, like, the way people can, what they can handle.
Guest:It's, like, shockingly low, where it's just like, I'm not reading that.
Guest:You mean one long paragraph?
Guest:Like, you see online, somebody puts a thing up as a paragraph.
Guest:I'm not reading that.
Yeah.
Guest:It's like, what, you can't take 40 seconds to read this thing?
Guest:And, like, when the Elephant Graveyard runs, like, I look at the comments, people go, I'm not watching an hour and a half.
Guest:It's like, first of all, it's a masterpiece.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, and it was boring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was boring.
Guest:It's like, how boring?
Guest:Like, what do you need?
Marc:What's the stimulus?
Marc:But those are boring people saying that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I talked to Heidecker, and that was, like, that was the interesting takeaway, was that, you know, most of this stuff is boring.
Marc:Boring as fuck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like it goes nowhere.
Marc:And the people that are like, fuck that.
Marc:It's like they're the people that are dictating culture, the most boring people in the world that don't even have the sort of willingness or basic open-mindedness to take in something interesting because it's too threatening to them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're the ones that all the major entertainment companies are trying to appropriate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, well, we don't want to turn them off to this thing.
Guest:It's just like, why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, let's force them to evolve or go away.
Guest:Yeah, go back to wherever they came from on some level.
Guest:It's just this weird place where the dummies are in charge.
Guest:And it's like, we don't want to rock the boat.
Marc:On all levels.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:You know, like, again, I've said my piece.
Marc:Maybe I should say more of it.
Marc:There's people that are hanging this sort of, like, Carlin-like expectations on my philosophical point of view.
Marc:But I'm like, that's going to take a lot of work to keep turning that out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you can't.
Guest:The thing is, like, he got to such a dark place that it just, like...
Guest:I never saw you as being anywhere near that.
Marc:That's just like, you're not a nihilist.
Marc:No, I have a couple lines.
Marc:I wish I was more of a nihilist.
Marc:But I like animals too much.
Marc:Yeah, it would definitely be easier.
Marc:I'm close.
Marc:I ride the edge.
Guest:You see it, and it's just like...
Guest:It's like, I can't live there.
Guest:No.
Guest:I can visit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I can't stay there.
Marc:I like people too much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But when you went to video, were you apprehensive?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I still am.
Guest:I still am.
Guest:I don't know if I'll ever be truly comfortable with it.
Guest:It's just the pandemic changed podcasting.
Guest:With all this video crept in.
Marc:It changed everything.
Marc:Everyone should get the fuck off Zoom.
Marc:You know, the plague is over.
Marc:Put your pants on and go talk to people.
Marc:Go drag in your car and go get a bottle of water and sit across from somebody.
Marc:Yeah, where it smells different and you can see them and feel the vibe.
Guest:Yeah, where you can actually feel the room therein.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Not just like... Not just like, what's that on the shelf?
Guest:That's exactly it.
Guest:It's like, oh, they're gonna... I love those people that put their own books on the shelf.
Guest:Oh, my... And you can... When you feel...
Guest:How much thought goes into, like, their shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're just like, if I put this painting... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It'll show that I'm... It makes you appreciate the public access nature of people that don't really fucking fuck with their room.
Marc:Where animals show up or kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, it... I...
Guest:The video thing is just a part of what it's like in 2025 to be doing this.
Guest:And it's just like... I'll always prefer just the audio part of it.
Guest:That was what I fell in love with as a kid was radio.
Guest:And I didn't know what DJs looked like.
Guest:I didn't know what a...
Guest:The first time I saw that DJs are basically in a phone booth, they're here with two turntables and carts, but they can't even move.
Guest:When you're listening to it, you think it's this huge...
Marc:And they're amazingly large personality people.
Marc:I told a story about Bobby Box, the KQEO.
Marc:KQEO AM was a station that was on in junior high, playing hits.
Marc:And Bobby Box was the guy.
Marc:Bobby Box, spinning the hits.
Marc:And he came to host a dance at our school, and he was like this, almost a dwarf.
Marc:And he was wearing this plaid suit, and he had this horrible haircut, and everybody was like...
Marc:That's him?
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember.
Guest:John Worcester is one of the funniest things.
Guest:He was obsessed with rock radio also.
Guest:And one of the stations in Philadelphia changed formats.
Guest:And it was trying to be like...
Guest:like like uh like new wave yeah and he's listening and he hears this dj on there and he's just like hey this is mohawk and i'm doing a thing and he's just john's just like i think this is a guy just changed his name to mohawk on the station like same old guy yeah like yeah so he calls he's like are you mohawk are you with the other guy he's like yeah i'm gonna quit next week
Guest:They changed formats.
Guest:I'm getting out of here.
Guest:Mohawk was the best he could come up with.
Guest:Yeah, just some old guy.
Guest:I'm just trying to do radio.
Guest:When he comes in, it's like, hey, we're changing formats.
Guest:You better play some psychedelic furs.
Guest:And he's just like, what is this?
Marc:He's just like, sure, I'm Mohawk.
Marc:But what is the business model now?
Marc:What are you doing over there?
Marc:You doing all right?
Guest:with my show yeah but don't you have like spin-offs and everything well we do stuff for the patreon like bonus things for patreon and it's fun to do i don't even know the patreon world so that's like you know special stuff they pay for you just do extra stuff that's like i always look at it as like the my show will never i will never charge for the show
Guest:I was never going to, like, people have floated things.
Guest:It's like, well, what if the first half is free and the other half is behind a paywall?
Guest:It's just like, I got into this for the thing to be available to anyone who ever wants to hear it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:100% for free.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was like a non-negotiable point for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But things beyond that, it's like, well, if people want more, we can do more.
Guest:It's like, but holy moly, you get three hours a week for most people.
Guest:That is probably enough.
Marc:It's plenty, yeah.
Guest:It's just...
Guest:You can get as much as you want, and you say when you're full.
Guest:But doesn't Julia have a show?
Guest:Yeah, we do a thing where we talk to people called Outgrown, and we just ask them about stuff when they're kids.
Marc:Is that a Patreon show?
Guest:Yeah, we do.
Guest:But it's Patreon for a little bit, and then it's just on YouTube for everybody to hear.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:little windows of exclusivity how's that doing it's fun it's just like we it's nice to just look to be with somebody who i actually respect from like an artistic standpoint yeah mind-blowingly exciting and you and klausner still do the thing yeah yeah we do a show together double threat and that does that does good yeah it's all fine it's all like but again it's like we were talking about we have our we have our people we
Guest:They're into it.
Guest:We try to uphold the quality to make them happy.
Guest:We're not trying to just get...
Guest:It's like at a point, everybody's doing a niche thing at a point.
Guest:And you just know your lane.
Guest:And you don't want it to be redundant or boring.
Guest:But you definitely, you don't have to keep cracking the thing open and trying to reinvent it.
Guest:It's just like, no, this works.
Guest:We'll do this.
Marc:Yeah, that's what we did.
Marc:Yeah, it's what you do.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't think I'm disillusioned.
Marc:I think I am...
Marc:Just adapting to where we are.
Marc:And I think on a certain level, that can feel like disillusionment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, when things are so in flux and uncertain...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It feels like when you're just trying to say, like, hey, I'm just talking about how it is right now.
Guest:It's just like, well, why are you so negative?
Guest:It's like, well, I didn't come up with where we're at.
Guest:I'm reacting to it.
Guest:There's a reaction to things.
Guest:I'm not starting the discussion.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah, it's hard.
Guest:And for me to have done this show for 25 years, it's really...
Guest:It just is now.
Guest:I don't even know what that... I still really do like doing it, and I try to find new things that keep me engaged with it.
Guest:Like what now?
Guest:Just trying to have different guests on and stuff, and going out of my comfort zone a little bit with that stuff.
Guest:I had Adam Friedland on the other day.
Guest:I mean, that's somebody people are just like...
Guest:why is he having this come down guy on the show like oh really yeah because it's like that's out of the yeah that's the that's out of the bubble that's the old adam right he's i like i think he's very he he was so when i told him you said what's his problem what his problem with me is he was like legitimately he's like i love him
Guest:And I was like, Mark's cool with all this.
Marc:Don't worry.
Marc:The fucking thing is, is like, you know, I am a lot more out of the loop than most people know.
Marc:So, like, all I hear is like, you know, they're talking shit about me over on Comptown.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck is Comptown?
Guest:I backed into that one in a way where I was just like...
Guest:I heard the name and I was just like, well, I don't think that's going to be for me.
Guest:You can't judge a book by its cover.
Guest:I think those guys are all funny.
Guest:I love Stavi.
Marc:I had him on.
Marc:And after I had him on, people were like, you know, they were talking shit about you for a year or two.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know.
Guest:But that's what they were supposed to do.
Guest:They're in their 20s or early 30s.
Guest:It's like, yeah.
Guest:I did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm just not doing it anymore because- I just did it last month.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:You're on a royal tear here.
Guest:I was just like, when we were doing that stuff, I'm just like, oh boy, I hope Mark still likes me.
Guest:I hope my number's not coming up soon.
Guest:But it's just like, you're supposed to throw rocks at the person who's a little older than you.
Guest:It's just what-
Guest:I've done it and I'll probably do it forever and I just like...
Guest:But to some degree, I'll do it forever.
Guest:But it's just like they're just excited kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The weird thing about throwing rocks, the big hurdle for me in that whole thing was this idea of why are you slagging other comics?
Marc:And I had to deal with this years ago.
Marc:It's like when somebody is part of the culture in a way that transcends comedy, per se, they're a phenomenon of one kind or another, they're fair game.
Marc:They have to be.
Marc:You know, it's not like, you know, you shouldn't make fun of that comic just because he killed somebody.
Guest:But it's also not like, it's like, it's comedy.
Guest:It's not like you're like, boy, you really shouldn't go after the other people who knit like this.
Guest:Because it's like, comedy is based on making fun of people and just blasting people.
Guest:It's like, that's what it is.
Guest:Knitting is a passive...
Guest:Yeah, I made sure it was all- Mom confrontational thing.
Guest:Comedy is confrontational.
Guest:Yeah, and I made sure it was all funny.
Guest:Literally last night, I showed-
Guest:the elephant graveyard, one of the taking on Joe's special to somebody.
Guest:I was just like, cause they were like, they were like, I don't know that.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:We need to watch it right now.
Guest:And it's just like the, it's just like, this guy is like a surgeon when he just does these things.
Guest:And like, I've tried, I've like DM'd with them over on Patreon.
Guest:I was just like, Oh, I'm such a big fan, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And I,
Guest:Because he was getting like 10,000 views a video, like 10,000, 20,000 views.
Guest:And then just the first one a year ago, the Rogan one, just 2 million views.
Guest:So suddenly he popped.
Guest:And then it was like... And now he's like the guy.
Guest:But...
Guest:And he just seems like he wouldn't, I don't know who he is.
Guest:Me neither.
Guest:I've emailed with him.
Guest:Yeah, he keeps it deliberately vague, and he should.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:Who cares who he is?
Guest:Oh, his name's Glenn.
Guest:Okay, well, now we know.
Guest:It's like when- Glenn, what kind of name is that?
Guest:I remember when like- That's a cuck name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When Kiss were just like, Kiss are going to take their makeup off now.
Guest:And it's like, oh, we're going to see what Kiss really looked like.
Guest:And then they just showed, oh, they're just guys with faces.
Guest:It's like, what did we think was going to be under there?
Guest:I do remember it was a bit disappointing.
Guest:But it was just like, there's no version of it where you'd be like, oh my God, that's who they are?
Guest:It's like, they're just guys.
Marc:I wish these guys would take their fucking masks off.
Marc:Take the makeup off.
Guest:When he did that thing about, like, he's about the 250 comedians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's saying it to Cat Williams.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Cat Williams is just looking at him like, I don't respect you.
Guest:Like, Cat Williams could not have more contempt for him in that moment.
Guest:He's just like, because, you know, there's only like 250 of us and we, you know, who can really do this?
Guest:And Cat Williams is like, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Guest:It's like, oh, so you're one of the 250?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:This guy who just, like, is a... Like, Cat Williams is just like Godzilla in a way.
Guest:Like, he could just... When he... He's actually one of the funniest guys alive.
Guest:I mean, he can, like... But when he's doing the thing, it's like you... No one can stop him.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:No, he's...
Guest:Yeah, he's like in... There are these people that they're only one of.
Guest:It's like he's one of one.
Guest:Yeah, it's a great thing.
Marc:When he's gone, that's gone.
Marc:The thing with Adam Friedland and some of these guys is like, look, I'm an old man.
Marc:I'm two generations away from them.
Marc:And I think there are moments where I'm like, this guy is somehow like me.
Guest:Oh, I... Watching his show...
Guest:He's just like... You're watching him...
Guest:Not that he's figuring it out, but he's in it for the first time.
Guest:He's going into uncharted places for himself.
Guest:And you can watch the one, the Richie Torres thing he did.
Guest:Did you see that?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's like... Because he's talking to this New York congressman who is like a guy who's like a big APAC.
Guest:He takes tons of money from APAC.
Guest:He's just like...
Guest:And to see him like Adam Freeland, he gets like so vulnerable with this guy and just talks about what it's like to be Jewish in America in 2025.
Guest:And that I feel more people like Jews less because of situations that have not like he just he lays it out.
Guest:He's like, it hurts me.
Guest:for my identity to have this conflict.
Guest:It was the most sincere thing.
Guest:It's really pretty powerful.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And seeing him do that, I was like, oh, this guy is like, he's ready to go somewhere with what he's doing.
Guest:Yeah, trying to get real.
Guest:Yeah, it's like, good for you.
Guest:You're not just going to be snarky and just do that.
Guest:Yeah, I think that whatever he had coming at me was just the snark.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:We've all worn that hat at a point.
Guest:Now he's got the hat on.
Guest:You've worn the hat.
Guest:I wear the hat.
Guest:Everybody wears the hat.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And now you've got to deal with the blowback.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would think now...
Guest:I think I get—I don't attack people on my show or goof on people on my show for no reason.
Guest:Like, I would think I'm just selective about it now.
Guest:And I think that comes with maturity.
Guest:You're just kind of like—you realize who the actual targets should be.
Marc:Well, there are certain people you have that vibe with.
Marc:I do.
Marc:Anybody that can indulge my charming bully, I'll do it.
Guest:But there's just like a moment where I was just like—
Guest:Kevin Smith's not hurting anybody with these.
Guest:He just makes movies I don't like.
Guest:And I just finally like, I'm going to put that one down.
Guest:I'm going to set that sword down.
Guest:I'm just like, why am I fighting a guy who makes things?
Guest:Why am I turning him into public enemy number one just because he makes movies that I don't like?
Guest:Well, that's pretty mature.
Guest:Oh, well, I think I'm just running out of energy, honestly, Mark.
Marc:Well, I think it's really running out of fucks to give.
Marc:Kind of, yeah.
Marc:You know, you got to deepen the conversation at some point.
Marc:Do you miss Jersey?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I went back a couple times and it was kind of rough because things changed so much in five, six years.
Guest:Just things were gone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Favorite record store.
Guest:Gone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love going to that diner.
Guest:Gone.
Marc:Really?
Guest:The places that were like my, they were like the backbone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I had, the one thing I had in New Jersey that I still don't entirely have here is I knew where to go and what to do if I was like
Guest:like, feeling like if I was just in a bad place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I knew where I could go to kind of get myself out of there.
Guest:Where is that?
Guest:I would either go to Princeton and kind of walk around the town and the campus, or I'd go down to, like...
Guest:like Asbury Park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just like, I would just, there are places I could go that I knew were just like, I'll go hang out there for a few hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It, it's like, it's good for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I can kind of get my feet.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Back on the ground.
Guest:I still don't have that here yet.
Guest:Like, I don't know where, like, well, that stuff's so deep in you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's the thing is like, it was like, those are like neural pathways.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Carved.
Guest:I don't, and I don't have those here, but going back, a lot of the things had changed and, um,
Guest:It felt like we drove, we did a trip, me and my wife, Julia, we drove from L.A.
Guest:to New Jersey in May.
Guest:We drove like three and a half weeks on the road.
Guest:We just took our time, stopped at all different places.
Guest:To look for America?
Guest:Almost.
Guest:Yeah, we were looking for things that were going to be gone in five years.
Guest:What did you find?
Guest:Um...
Guest:I, some places I thought were absolutely, I was, like, so impressed by, like, Utah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like, stuff in Utah.
Guest:First of all, Utah was so beautiful.
Guest:I couldn't believe how beautiful it was.
Guest:I find Salt Lake City oddly comforting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like Salt Lake City.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I loved, like, just being in the middle of nowhere there.
Guest:We went in this, like, hot spring that was, like, in a crater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was, like, there was just so many, like... Was it full of hippies?
Guest:Yeah, it was a little bit of everybody.
Guest:Like, it was, like...
Guest:It was just like, it was like, it was better.
Guest:It was so much better.
Guest:People were actually bathing in it.
Guest:Nobody was actually bathing.
Guest:We had a bar of soap floating in it.
Guest:That was great.
Guest:But then other things when we just like...
Guest:we kind of went down, because I love Tennessee so much.
Guest:Beautiful.
Guest:And, like, Nashville, Memphis, those were my favorite cities.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:And... Nashville's changed a lot, but it's great.
Guest:Yeah, it's like, well, Nashville, like, seeing that part of, like, the downtown in Nashville, it's like 9.30 in the morning, we're just, like, walking around, and it's like...
Guest:9 30 in the morning and then like those pedal bikes go by where it's like eight yeah women drunk guys and women pedaling yeah pounding it's like it's 9 30 guys it's it's thursday yeah 9 30 on a thursday you guys are hammered yeah and every one of the bars along main drag they pull like like the garage door thing so and there's music coming from everywhere so it's really alive and it's exciting but um
Guest:Yeah, it was just like we stayed at the Peabody in Memphis.
Guest:I had a big night at the Peabody.
Guest:They still got the ducks?
Guest:Yeah, that's why I wanted to show Julia the ducks.
Guest:It was so much fun.
Guest:Because they do this thing where the ducks live in the hotel.
Guest:They walk them into the fountain in the middle of the lobby.
Guest:And then there's, like, this guy, the duck master.
Guest:He's the one who tells you about the history of the hotel.
Guest:So I just wanted to say to him afterwards, like, hey, that was amazing, your presentation.
Guest:You know, you're holding everyone's attention.
Guest:It's really impressive.
Guest:And we're, like, waiting.
Guest:For the ducks?
Guest:We're waiting for this guy.
Guest:He's talking to somebody else.
Guest:And then...
Guest:then there's a guy behind us and he's wearing a t-shirt that just says Gulf of America.
Guest:And you're just like, like, can you turn it off for one?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, like, look, have your dumb fucking views.
Guest:I don't like, what am I going to do about that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But can you like, can you just like enjoy that you're somewhere nice right now?
Guest:You have to like come into it ready to fight with your stupid t-shirt.
Guest:You know, like, and it was like stuff like that where you're just like,
Guest:You're like, this is just a cheap way to have an identity.
Guest:It's a cheap way to be interesting.
Guest:Because you're just boring.
Guest:You clearly have nothing else to talk about.
Guest:And this was like a ready-made identity.
Guest:I think that's a good point.
Guest:I think interesting is a diplomatic word.
Guest:But it was just like, it was such a... And there was so much of that.
Guest:It's affronting.
Guest:And I was just like, it started... Look, we were away for... By that point, we're a couple weeks away.
Guest:And you start to get a little...
Guest:squirrely being on the road that much and you're just like... Where else did you drive through?
Guest:We went Arizona up to Utah, Colorado then all the way to Wisconsin and then down south and then kind of South Carolina swoop up to New Jersey.
Guest:And finally getting to New Jersey it really had the feeling of after seeing all of these towns when you're driving on highways and then you pull off and it's just like...
Guest:Chili's, Applebee's, this, that.
Guest:Walmart.
Guest:And I'm just like, look at all Buc-ee's.
Guest:Looking at all these places...
Guest:But then I got to New Jersey and it was the same place.
Guest:It was the same thing.
Guest:I was like, oh my God, I lived in one of these.
Guest:I was just like, well, I don't live.
Guest:Look at these saps with their strip malls and all things like that.
Guest:And then I saw New Jersey as a tourist.
Guest:And I was like, it was literally no different than anywhere else we pulled off New Jersey.
Guest:to just sleep at a Hampton Inn.
Guest:I was like, I lived in one of those spots for other people.
Guest:It was probably the most obvious thing, but it took me forever to realize.
Marc:Well, I mean, I imagine looking for the things that were going to be gone, if you get off the interstate, there was this idea.
Marc:I remember AAA triptychs.
Marc:But all of those smaller towns...
Marc:are just probably decimated, really.
Marc:I mean, all the places that were smaller cities and smaller towns that had their own sort of economies and personality just got drained out.
Marc:I mean, where do you even pull off to go see?
Guest:There was a place in Wisconsin, House on the Rock.
Guest:Do you know what that is?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I think Kit talks about it.
Guest:It's one of the...
Guest:One of the takeaways was that there were these maniacs in America who built huge, stupid things that no one asked them to do.
Guest:And they saw their vision through to the finish line.
Guest:Like House on the Rock with this guy in the rural Wisconsin, just on the side of a mountain.
Guest:He's just like...
Guest:oh, I want to build a cool house.
Guest:And like Frank Lloyd Wright told him, it's just like, I wouldn't hire you to design a dog house.
Guest:Like Frank Lloyd Wright, those guys suck.
Guest:So he builds this house in the side of a mountain.
Guest:So you're touring it, and it's really impressive.
Guest:And the guy's just like, in the 50s, he was like, well...
Guest:I could charge people to tour it.
Guest:I need to have a little bit more for it.
Guest:So to show them.
Guest:So he builds this museum down on the, like at the bottom of the mountain that is like, it's like, just imagine, well, what's the museum having?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:you want to see a carousel the world's biggest carousel you've ever seen here it is oh and you're just like oh my god this carousel is amazing well there's two more carousels like it's like he didn't know when to stop with things you don't need three like you want to tell the guy it's like one carousel yeah that'll do it better than three carousels yeah
Guest:You go like, well, what about a room full of organs and pianos?
Guest:He's just like, yeah, I'll do that.
Guest:It's a room.
Guest:There's 300 organs and pianos.
Guest:And it's like you're touring through the thing.
Guest:It's like, hey, you like dollhouses?
Guest:It's like, well, here's 300 dollhouses.
Guest:This must be huge.
Guest:And you're just walking through.
Guest:We were three hours.
Guest:We were moving fast through it at a point.
Guest:We're just like, we'll be here like...
Guest:They'll lock us in.
Guest:But just that in and of itself is something.
Guest:It was three hours and we're just like, we're like hauling ass for this thing.
Guest:And it was three hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're just like, this is like what you can do in America if you're a crazy person who doesn't take no for an answer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in its weird way, it's like that's kind of where I've lived in terms of just like... I was not... I didn't get a...
Guest:A job that was like, yeah, with any stability or anything, anybody giving me any sort of like guidance as a boss that this is what you do.
Guest:And everything was just like, yeah, I'm on my own here.
Guest:I'm figuring it out.
Guest:And if if something's not working, then I don't eat now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm the same way.
Marc:And I guess it is similar in spirit that, you know, that, and I think that I guess still holds up in some weird way that here you can kind of do whatever you set your mind to.
Marc:It might not work.
Marc:It might not work.
Marc:Fail, but you can certainly give it a go.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And the crazy thing is like, we went to like, um, was it Nebraska?
Guest:I forget where it was.
Guest:It was like, um,
Guest:There was this museum, this guy had the Warp, it's called the Warp Family Museum, in the middle of nowhere.
Guest:And he just collected, like you walk in, it's just like, oh, there's a Model T. And there's like the planes that didn't fly that people tried to like, you know, like you see from the old... The old footage.
Guest:The old footage.
Guest:And it's every kind of car.
Guest:It's every kind of everything.
Guest:Suddenly it's like, here's...
Guest:cell phones throughout history it's like a car phone from the 70s yeah like it's just like they go from being there's a point if you collect stuff yeah it's almost like that dip like the low point is you're an insane person with too much stuff and it's like if you just punch through then you can be a museum owner yeah
Guest:like like then you're then you're just like oh it's valid right right i feel like people are like stop collecting this stuff what are you doing with all these microwave ovens yeah like what are you doing why are you collecting this stuff and this guy just keeps going he's like hey now i'm a museum yeah yeah now it's a curated hoarding it really is hoarding masquerading as history where are all your records dude
Guest:um they're here still some in new jersey i gotta get it i gotta get them uh that squared away they're at the house yeah it's fine it was like i have so many records that it's just like do you ever think about like i gotta get rid of them no no i can't they're my friends
Guest:They tell me who I am.
Guest:Do you ever go through it and go like, oh, I forgot I was this guy.
Guest:Yeah, there's times where you're just like, wow, I really was trying to like that for a while.
Guest:I have nine records.
Guest:I see it and I'm just like...
Guest:If I was more confident, I would have one of them.
Guest:But I was just like, I don't get it yet.
Guest:I know I'm going to chase.
Guest:I'm going to keep chasing this thing.
Guest:I get them all at once.
Guest:If I hear one song, I'm like, I got to know more about this guy.
Guest:And then you have nine of their records.
Guest:And then I start getting like...
Guest:Well, I need to listen to them in order.
Guest:I need to follow their artistic journey.
Guest:And still nothing.
Guest:Yeah, still just like, I don't get it.
Guest:And then I'm just like, I think I'll just listen to Loaded again for the nine billionth time.
Marc:Which bands do you not get?
Marc:Um...
Marc:Yeah, that's a good question.
Marc:Who, like, that I don't get?
Marc:Well, I mean, because, like, I know, like, you know, I've gone back and forth with you on Destroyer, and I'm going to try again soon.
Marc:Okay, yeah, look.
Marc:I talked to Nico Case, and by all indications, that guy, what's his name?
Marc:Dan.
Marc:You talked to him?
Marc:Yeah, Dan May.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:He's a nice guy.
Marc:He's a thing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And I just can't lock in.
Guest:In a different era, he would be Neil Young or Bob Dylan.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:If a different kind of music was popular, he would be huge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he's just... It just pours out of the guy.
Marc:The funny thing is, is when people like you like him, and there's certain people that I respect who like somebody, and I can't wrap my brain around it or get it, I end up resenting them.
Marc:Oh, I understand that feeling, too.
Guest:I resent everybody.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:What do you think?
Guest:You're so good, you get it?
Marc:Well, not you, but him.
Marc:It's sort of like, you're not getting through to me, so what does that mean for you?
Guest:Oh, you think you're... You think you're all that?
Marc:Not to me.
Marc:No, I don't get it.
Guest:Well, I don't understand what you're doing.
Guest:And I'm a pretty smart guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I'm smart and I don't get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really wish I could, that like jazz, that I could...
Guest:with like that I could love it with all of my heart yeah like I don't have like a pure both hands on it connection to jazz well you're lucky because that's that's another 10,000 records well I know I know that and I just like as a somebody who likes buying things I would just be like
Guest:Why am I being denied this thing?
Guest:Yeah, you'd be in trouble.
Guest:I could buy all this stuff.
Guest:Never-ending jazz hole.
Guest:And, yeah, I just, like, I like it.
Guest:I like what I listen to, and I like the right people with it.
Guest:But in terms of just, like, that thing where it's just, like, it's, like, healing me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, I don't get that deep with it.
Marc:I think I could, but, like, I think I have enough, you know?
Marc:And some of it, you know, I...
Marc:I think your brain has to lock into a meditative state with it.
Marc:You can sit there and listen to all the nuances, but jazz can just be, and it has an effect.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One of the things that I wish I could prove, but I think so much of what made...
Guest:john coltrane yeah work like people like you read accounts like people would go see him at like the village underground and stuff yeah and they were like it was the loudest thing i had ever heard like the like the force of it right gets lost in with time yeah yeah that oh we only have this album of it yeah but when people were in the club with it it was like an assault yeah yeah yeah like the we we're only getting like a fraction of the power yeah of him right
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think that's probably true with a lot of bands.
Marc:I've had recent kind of catharsis with Alice Coltrane.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I can listen to that stuff and be like, what is... It's otherworldly.
Guest:No, I love Alice Coltrane.
Guest:Did you go to that exhibit?
Guest:There was an exhibit last year of just like her archives.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, she's something.
Guest:Really, like a real...
Guest:Like, isn't it amazing that there can be a John Coltrane?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then there's an Alice Coltrane.
Guest:And, like, that these forces of nature bond.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, how is that even possible for these things to be, like... Like, you're, like...
Guest:you're like a sun, and you're a sun, and everything's orbiting around both of you, but you're like, you unite somehow.
Guest:That's like earth changing.
Guest:Does that still happen?
Guest:You mean... Sons joining?
Guest:Um... I mean, would we know it?
Guest:I don't know if we'd know it.
Guest:I think maybe time has to pass when you also... to realize what was actually happening.
Marc:I just, like, I've gotten kind of, like, interested in, like, the group theater.
Marc:You know, where it's like... It seems like during the 30s...
Marc:That there were these groups of like, you know, intellectuals and artists that would all hang out together.
Marc:And they changed the course of understanding.
Marc:Philosophers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if that happens anymore.
Marc:Maybe it happens on Zoom.
Guest:Somebody needs to move to Austin.
Yeah.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:I didn't think about it.
Marc:I just said it's the Algonquin round table down there at the mothership mothership in the in the second green room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it also feels like just people have had enough of.
Guest:And it really just does feel like people are feeling like they have a voice to just go like, yeah, you know what?
Guest:I'm tired.
Guest:You guys had a good run, but I'm tired of it.
Marc:I was hoping that voice would be louder.
Marc:And I think it's what compelled me to be part of it.
Guest:To be part of it.
Guest:And that just gives people permission to join in on it.
Guest:I just wanted comics to relax, for Christ's sake.
Guest:Well, the thing is, it's just like none of this would be happening if they just said, well, my number one priority is to be funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:None of this would happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anytime comedy gets off target, it's because somebody's trying to be cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or they're trying to be smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're not trying to be funny.
Guest:Like they've lost the mission statement.
Guest:Or you can try to do both.
Guest:But you have to major in being funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can be cool.
Guest:It's like, look, Anthony Jeslin, I think, is cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he's there to be funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's not there to be cool first, funny second.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that's the thing.
Guest:It's like, how did they lose?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was like, it's a very basic agreement.
Guest:Yeah, about funny.
Marc:Yeah, which is like, you're here to be funny.
Marc:I'm blessed with the ability to never think I'm cool.
Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, and then I try really hard and I've failed a lot of times.
Marc:But I think in the last special I might have been a little cool.
Guest:Your journey is well documented.
Guest:But you're the one documenting it.
Guest:Like, you're not hiding from... No.
Guest:Like, you were searching for a thing.
Guest:When your thing clicked, it clicked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, it's actually, I feel like...
Guest:People can look at these stories and realize you don't get to say when it clicks.
Guest:But if you keep trying, maybe it will click for you.
Marc:Maybe it will.
Marc:And you, sir, were a big part of it, both on an inspirational level, on a guest level, on a friendship level.
Marc:And I always appreciate seeing you and your input and hanging out like this.
Guest:No, it's really been, it's been great to have, uh, you as a friend for as long as we've been friends.
Guest:And it started in such a, I can remember cause I would go see you with Laura.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Talked about this new, but then like the moment it was at Yola Tango doing their Hanukkah shows at Maxwell's in Hoboken.
Guest:I can literally picture by the pay phone between dividing the restaurant and the club.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the hallway there.
Guest:In the hallway, and you were performing, and I'm finally like, Mark's here.
Guest:We're kind of circling each other now.
Guest:Let's see what this is going to be.
Guest:It's like, hey, how's it going?
Guest:It's like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
Guest:It was just like this, like, uh-huh, okay.
Guest:And finally it's like, I think I'm all right with that guy.
Guest:Like, it came where it was like, okay, that went well.
Guest:And then it just kind of grew from there.
Guest:But there was that initial, like, kind of, like, sizing up.
Guest:Like, huh?
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Guest:What are you?
Guest:Huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Marc:So that's you, and I'm me, and I'm... Like, where are we going with this?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was probably just freaking out about performing at that fucking thing.
Guest:No, that... But really, it's, you know, I...
Guest:The thing that I've always felt separated you from a lot of the stuff that I related to was you talked into microphones on the radio.
Guest:And that just it just puts you in a whole different mindset for any of this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there's a certain you talk a different way after you've done after you log hours on the radio.
Yeah.
Guest:You just approach this differently.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's only a few people who came into this radio first.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why I think I always had like an affinity and respect for that.
Guest:It's like you put the hours in on Air America and all that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the break room and you're just grinding it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No one was, like, asking for it necessarily.
Marc:Because nobody knew what these things were.
Marc:I know.
Marc:If we did break room now, I mean, they might even have an audience.
Guest:Me and Cedar, but we should just... That would be the greatest.
Guest:If you two got... It should be like the Sunshine Boys.
Marc:We should do the Sunshine Boys.
Guest:You should do the Sunshine Boys.
Guest:You and Sam Cedar.
Guest:That's the culmination of all of it.
Guest:Marc Maron, Sam Cedar.
Marc:It's such a funny but real tension to him and I. No, that's the whole thing.
Guest:It is like...
Guest:It seemed like he really didn't know what to do when you started to succeed.
Guest:Like this was not supposed to happen.
Guest:It's like, this is like a glitch in the matrix.
Guest:Mark's getting popular.
Guest:No, this isn't supposed to, he was supposed to go.
Guest:I was supposed to go up and he was supposed to go down.
Marc:It's made our dynamic kind of more funny because it's almost like on the verge of crying.
Marc:So well, because he can't, he can't get the same, you know, edge on me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He just, yeah.
Guest:Like he lost.
Guest:It's like he lost the ability to, like, the knockout blow.
Guest:Like, he just can't.
Guest:It's just that you're just punching each other.
Guest:But nobody ever loses the fight.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You're just constantly punching each other.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but really, it has been, like, just getting to be a part of the thing.
Guest:And, you know, I always looked at my thing as being, like, I just want to be on the continuum with it.
Guest:It's just like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was obviously, I was influenced by, you know, a hundred people before it.
Guest:And if anybody took inspiration or whatever from what I did, that's just, that's the gift.
Guest:Like when people were like, you stole the, it's like, well, I fucking stole stuff from people.
Guest:Somebody could accuse me of stealing stuff from people before me.
Guest:I was like, you know, you're just on the continuum.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:And that's like, that's everything I've ever asked for is to get to be like, when you look at the timeline of all of it, I'm like a dot on the timeline.
Guest:We're on the continuum.
Marc:Yeah, and that's like... The funny thing about me is that I did not... Like, in doing radio, I had no heroes.
Marc:I did not... And I don't really listen to much now.
Marc:Obviously, we have comedy heroes.
Marc:But for me, on these mics...
Marc:It was all, it's better because I didn't know how to do it.
Marc:And you don't know why you're compelling on these mics.
Marc:There were things I learned along the way, but it was not based on anybody.
Marc:I never listened to Stern.
Marc:I never listened to Ira that much or Ira's hero.
Marc:What's that guy's name?
Marc:Joe Frank?
Marc:Yeah, Joe Frank.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't really listen.
Marc:I didn't have a source.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think it helped me.
Guest:Yeah, I agree.
Guest:I did listen to Howard Stern when I was in high school, and it was an influence at a point.
Guest:But as soon as he got—when he leveled up, I immediately lost interest in it.
Guest:I liked—
Guest:him as this underdog who was like, why doesn't people respect me?
Guest:Like, that's the stuff I ate up.
Guest:But then as soon as he was like, oh, he is number one, I was just like, well, this does not fit what I want from anything.
Guest:I don't want to hear like winners talk about winning.
Guest:Like, I don't care about, I want to hear somebody talk about the struggle.
Marc:I think the thing I learned from you and also oddly Rush Limbaugh, you know, who I'd listened to in bits and pieces when people told me about the idea of holding silence.
Marc:That's yeah.
Marc:And that is that was the biggest lesson I learned.
Guest:That was I can even tell you where I was influenced by that.
Guest:It's funny because that actually is one of the things that scares people the most.
Guest:Like when I'll just be like telling something.
Guest:And then I just like, I'm not scared of that moment.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you realize it's actually your friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you're in control of the thing now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was Dave Eggers wrote in that memoir.
Guest:He did heartbreaking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Something of something, something.
Guest:He just talked about, I think, and I only read it once.
Guest:So I just, how his father, and I'm probably getting it really wrong.
Guest:Just encourage to get the uhs and the ums and the likes out of your vocabulary.
Guest:It's just like, just slow down rather than go, uh, just be quiet for a second.
Guest:You can, it's the same thing, but it sounds a lot better.
Guest:Sam's really, Cesar's great at the uhs.
Guest:He's a big R.
Guest:Well, when you do the, uh, what you're doing is you're not allowing the other person to talk.
Guest:You're, you're saying like, I'm still going, I'm still going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like you.
Guest:I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I, yeah, I'll do, I hear myself go, uh,
Guest:Like when I did it, probably did it 12 times.
Marc:I know I do it too.
Guest:You're talking thing.
Guest:Huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just so like, I'm still here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm still not great at that stuff.
Marc:I go up and down with it, but like knowing that you do hold the space, especially with somebody else, it's a big deal.
Marc:And I'm not great at it, but, but I, I, I can do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's, um, you just grow into it and it's just like, you're not scared of the stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you think you're going to miss?
Guest:What part of this do you think you'll miss?
Marc:Well, just like, you know, before you came over, I was like, this is not a good day.
Marc:And my fear is that's going to be a lot of days and there's not anyone coming over.
Guest:Hey guys, it's the new WTF.
Guest:We're back.
Guest:Brendan's not here, but meet Keith, my new guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I just don't think I could do it.
Marc:I think that, but most of that is ego.
Marc:That, you know, it's really come down to, you know, who else can we talk to?
Marc:And obviously you can keep talking.
Marc:And I imagine I could keep talking in some form or another.
Marc:And a month or so ago, I was more sort of like, yeah, I'll probably show up somewhere just for the people who can hear me talk.
Marc:And that's starting to fade a little bit.
Marc:But I don't really know.
Marc:I mean, what I'll miss is...
Marc:Is that excitement and dread and, you know, anxiety of, you know, meeting new people coming over and locking into this because it does get me out of myself and it does, you know, kind of provide me a social life.
Marc:You know, but everything that my experience, all my experience with this thing are these conversations because after I do it, it's out of my hands.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's all very kind of real life shit for me.
Marc:And that's going to be a big change.
Marc:I mean, even now that we only have a few slots left and we don't have to do a backlog, I've had a lot of free time in the last couple weeks.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm watching The Sopranos again.
Marc:And I'm eating.
Marc:And I'm practicing guitar.
Marc:And I'm sort of like, is this it?
Marc:But I spent half my life like that.
Guest:But that's exactly... And also...
Guest:You have a, there's a certain creativity in you and energy for that.
Guest:And you do have the, not the luxury, you've earned it.
Guest:There are multiple places you can put that.
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:I'm curious to see what that is and where that goes.
Marc:I think that's exciting.
Marc:I'll probably end up over there with you at Forever Dog.
Marc:Marin's come in, I think, this week.
Marc:He doesn't really have a plan.
Marc:Yeah, Marin's got the studio from four to seven.
Yeah.
Guest:He doesn't know what he's doing.
Guest:He doesn't even have the lights on.
Guest:He's waiting for something to happen.
Guest:He's sitting in there in the dark.
Guest:He's pretending.
Guest:He's doing an interview, but there's nobody else in there.
Guest:We're just going to let him do it.
Marc:No one had it booked.
Guest:He thinks he's talking to us.
Marc:He said Brad Pitt was coming.
Marc:He's not.
Marc:I hope I don't become that guy.
Marc:It's just going to be a battle against whatever my brain does alone, which has always been difficult.
Marc:But maybe it's time to sit in it after all I've done.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Now, one other final thing is like...
Guest:I feel like, for some people, the introduction of podcasting into the comedy world has been hugely bad for there.
Guest:It has diminished the idea of the value of what you say.
Guest:And also of anonymity, of surprise.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You know everybody too well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The idea, it used to be every two years, here's one hour of me talking every two years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And suddenly now it's like- It never shuts up.
Guest:In one week, it's 10 hours of me talking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're just like, well, the value of talking for that person is just- Yeah.
Guest:It's just plummeted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like-
Guest:What do you think not podcasting is going to do for you as a stand-up?
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:Do you think it'll change that?
Marc:Well, my fear is that, like, you know, will I still, you know, have the crowd?
Marc:Will I still have the audience?
Marc:But, you know, I can stay engaged with Instagram to a certain degree.
Marc:But I don't know, man, because a lot of times...
Marc:In the beginning of the show, like I'm I'm just improvising and things come up and they end up things I work on in my stand up.
Marc:And, you know, there was a an evolution of material that happened in those intros.
Marc:So, I don't know.
Marc:I mean, I'm going to have to stay engaged with you and Lipsight and Jerry.
Marc:Like, I do need an audience.
Marc:But, yeah, I don't know.
Marc:I guess it'll be like it used to be where, you know, I have to nervously go on stage with stuff that I thought of over the last week and just, you know, find the balls to get it out there.
Guest:I think something good will come out of it.
Guest:And the other thing is you just do a different thing.
Guest:If you really miss this, there's different forms you can take.
Guest:Yeah, I'll be all right.
Marc:I'll be all right.
Guest:I'll let you know if I'm not.
Guest:Well, I'm sure I'll know before you say your...
Guest:really yeah Mark let me know he's not doing well it's like he's gonna be on the show again just be nice to him exactly I'll be showing up on your show once or twice a month hey man what's up let's just talk about some shit yeah we're kind of busy this week Mark
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:Oh, no, fine.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Mark's been waiting outside in this car for two hours.
Guest:Yeah, he's calling in now.
Guest:I can do characters like John.
Guest:Yeah, we got Mark from Los Angeles.
Guest:What do you got?
Guest:All right, buddy.
Guest:Well, I love you, man.
Guest:I love you too, and this is great.
Guest:And thank you for, you've always been very generous with the platform, and I appreciate it.
Guest:I appreciate you.
Guest:Now, that's it.
Marc:That's the last word from either of us.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes, me and Tom.
Marc:Last talk on this show.
Marc:Touching.
Marc:It's all heavy.
Marc:Again, the Best Show 25th Anniversary shows are coming to Brooklyn, Philly, Chicago, and L.A.
Marc:in October.
Marc:Go to thebestshow.net for dates and tickets.
Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.
Marc:People, 10 years ago this week, I had a long chat with the very funny Fred Armisen.
Marc:It's episode 636, and it's available for free on whatever podcast app you're using.
Marc:Just search WTF Fred Armisen.
Guest:They bring me into audition, and I went to UCB, went up and did my...
Marc:The original used to be with the shitty, the weird seats.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you walked in and you kind of had to walk by the stage.
Marc:Like when you walked in, the stage was on the right and you had to make it.
Marc:That's the one.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So who else is on the night?
Marc:So this is where your audition is going to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everyone else who auditioned was groups, like improv groups.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:And then I went up and I did that.
Guest:And then a while later, maybe a month later, two months later, they asked me to come back and do it at the studio.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Camera audition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They flew me to, and I was already like in heaven.
Guest:I was like, I can't believe this is happening.
Marc:It was just for Marcy at UCB or Lauren came?
Guest:Oh, Lauren came.
Guest:Tina Fey came too.
Marc:She was the head writer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then, uh, she was head writer.
Guest:There was a couple of head writers at the time.
Guest:And then when I met Lauren, I was like, I was like, you, you knew George Harrison.
Guest:You said that to him at UCB?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And then I asked him, and then this is a very typical Lauren thing to say, but I asked, I was like, just this conversation, so are you seeing a lot of people, meaning, you know, auditioners?
Guest:And he answered, no.
Guest:Which is a very honest, like, you know, you would think the answer would be like, oh, yeah.
Guest:But he was very like, no, we are not.
Marc:So when you said you knew George Harrison, you sort of approached him with an intensity and a sort of left field question because it was what was compelling to you.
Marc:How did he respond to that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, can you imagine someone who knew George Harrison?
Yeah.
Marc:That's episode 636 with Fred Armisen, available now for free wherever you're listening to this show.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Here's a little George Jones without the singing.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.