Episode 1670 - Ben Stiller

Episode 1670 • Released August 18, 2025 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how's it going man women those what's happening every day is two days at least i you know it's i go through the full arc

00:00:30Marc:of all the emotions on any given day, some for longer than others.

00:00:35Marc:Most of it's self-generated reactions to things that my brain makes up, but it's a full day.

00:00:42Marc:A lot of busy work, a lot of adjusting to this new time that I have in the sense of being off the road, out of the publicity mill, and just kind of locking in for the long haul before I start shooting stick.

00:00:56Marc:But I'm all right.

00:00:58Marc:Are you?

00:00:59Marc:I guess I've been going up at the store, trying to get some new shit going.

00:01:03Marc:It's amazing how I give myself no real break to kind of not rest on my laurels, but just kind of regroup.

00:01:11Marc:I just don't do it.

00:01:12Marc:I just get up there at a habit.

00:01:15Marc:And some of it's coming along to what end?

00:01:17Marc:I don't know.

00:01:19Marc:I don't know.

00:01:19Marc:A lot of stuff going on in my mind on a lot of levels, right?

00:01:25Marc:All right.

00:01:26Marc:My brain, when overloaded and full of panic and fear, well, in terms of the world that we live in, my brain wants to just sort of bring that down to me.

00:01:38Marc:How can I make my my little world?

00:01:42Marc:Equally as terrifying.

00:01:44Marc:So I can feel like I have a little control over it.

00:01:46Marc:And there's a word for that.

00:01:47Marc:I think my psychiatrist said obsessional anxiety with a focus.

00:01:52Marc:I added that part.

00:01:54Marc:It has a central focus on on only bad things.

00:01:58Marc:Anxiety is never a good feeling.

00:01:59Marc:Someone sent me an email that said maybe you should frame your anxiety as excitement.

00:02:05Marc:Well, that would mean I'm excited about the worst things happening possible.

00:02:09Marc:And I guess I could do that.

00:02:10Marc:I don't know how that would change my personality.

00:02:12Marc:I don't know.

00:02:13Marc:I don't know, folks.

00:02:15Marc:A lot going on.

00:02:16Marc:And as you get older, the first thing you realize in terms of this, as you hit a certain age, that your parents can't help you anymore.

00:02:26Marc:If they're like mine, they really can't help because they just, well, they're just who they are.

00:02:31Marc:But they're there.

00:02:32Marc:But you do realize at some point that it's on you.

00:02:35Marc:You got to help yourself.

00:02:37Marc:And then in the world we live in now, you're like, wow, no one's going to help at any level.

00:02:42Marc:That's a lot to manage when you've got the unresolved parent shit going on.

00:02:46Marc:And on top of that, the sort of the world of politics and government and police and everything else is sort of like, well, will anyone come to help after a certain point?

00:02:56Marc:Will they look don't want to be weird.

00:02:59Marc:Don't want to be scary.

00:03:01Marc:Ben Stiller is on the show.

00:03:02Marc:He was he was actually the first really big star to come to the garage in the first months of the podcast.

00:03:07Marc:It was episode 79.

00:03:09Marc:And it was a big deal for us at the time.

00:03:12Marc:Obviously, he's continued to act right and direct since then, including his work behind the camera for Severance.

00:03:18Marc:Season two is nominated for Outstanding Drama Series at the Emmys.

00:03:21Marc:And Ben is nominated for Outstanding Directing.

00:03:25Marc:He's here.

00:03:26Marc:Nice to catch up with Ben.

00:03:28Marc:We're all becoming old men.

00:03:30Marc:Me and Ben.

00:03:32Marc:A few things that I did not... I should tell you about.

00:03:38Marc:I will be hosting...

00:03:42Marc:A screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the American Cinematheque at the Arrow Theater.

00:03:49Marc:That'll be on Saturday, 824 at the Arrow Theater, 730.

00:03:53Marc:McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

00:03:54Marc:I'll chime in a bit about it at the beginning.

00:03:57Marc:But it'll be nice to see a nice print of that, won't it?

00:03:59Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for a link to that.

00:04:03Marc:I'll be at Largo doing a show with a couple of other comics on the 28th.

00:04:09Marc:Thank you.

00:04:31Marc:uh is to uh rehearse and we got plans man we're gonna do guilty by randy newman i hope uh we're gonna do jumping at shadows uh the the old fleetwood mac version and stunning songs those two heavy we're gonna do can't put your armor on the memory johnny thunders again a little a little uh heavy and maybe george jones say it ain't you

00:04:55Marc:So there's a lot of kind of self-reflecting and sadness in this list.

00:05:01Marc:And we'll do a couple of happy ones.

00:05:03Marc:Maybe heaven by talking heads.

00:05:05Marc:That's the plan.

00:05:07Marc:We'll see how that unfolds.

00:05:09Marc:Oh, before I forget, if there's anything you wanted to ask me, now's your chance.

00:05:14Marc:We'll be doing our final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes.

00:05:18Marc:So send in your questions.

00:05:20Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description of today's show and send me whatever you want to ask.

00:05:25Marc:Then subscribe to the full Marin to get the final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes as they roll out in a few weeks.

00:05:31Marc:OK, I think I walked you through the toe problem.

00:05:35Marc:And I just didn't believe the doctor.

00:05:37Marc:And then I went to another doctor and he confirmed the first doctor's feelings that it wasn't anything I should worry about.

00:05:44Marc:And you give me a week or so and I won't believe that doctor either.

00:05:46Marc:You know why?

00:05:47Marc:Because I want to be afraid.

00:05:51Marc:That is where I'm comfortable.

00:05:53Marc:Full of self-flagellation, fear, shame, panic.

00:05:59Marc:Yeah, that's my family of origin groundwork, folks.

00:06:05Marc:That's my self-parenting skills.

00:06:07Marc:You fuck.

00:06:09Marc:But I a couple of I guess, you know, there's some light in the midst of all this.

00:06:15Marc:I don't know.

00:06:16Marc:It's so funny, man.

00:06:17Marc:You know, sometimes, you know, sometimes these comedy shows that I do, I did Tripoli show last week.

00:06:24Marc:They're sponsored by weed company.

00:06:26Marc:So there's guys in the back from the weed company and they got weed.

00:06:30Marc:I've talked about this before, but I don't think I really put it together until Kit pointed it out to me how funny it was because I don't smoke, obviously.

00:06:42Marc:I haven't smoked in a long time.

00:06:44Marc:I just had, what is it, 26 years?

00:06:47Marc:Sober.

00:06:48Marc:But I was thinking back on it.

00:06:50Marc:I used to smoke, man.

00:06:52Marc:And back in the day, I had a roommate who sold weed.

00:06:57Marc:And so there was weed everywhere.

00:07:00Marc:And just the daily weed practice.

00:07:03Marc:I need to get into a meditation practice.

00:07:05Marc:And I'm in the point with a lot of this advice I'm getting.

00:07:08Marc:I'm almost doing it.

00:07:10Marc:I'm in the I'm planning on doing it stage of doing things that are helpful to my mental well-being.

00:07:16Marc:Almost doing it.

00:07:18Marc:I can stay there for a while.

00:07:19Marc:But back in the day, the weed was everywhere.

00:07:22Marc:And again, the daily practice of weed smoking and knowing there was weed in the house and knowing that the guy, you know, across the hall had the weed most of the time.

00:07:30Marc:It was just a part of my life for a long time, weed before.

00:07:36Marc:But it was illegal.

00:07:38Marc:And I remember one time in college, the dealer asked me to go across town and pick up the weed from the main guy.

00:07:44Marc:And it was like a pound of weed in my memory.

00:07:48Marc:And it was terrifying because, you know, I had to walk about a couple of miles with a backpack and pick up the weed.

00:07:54Marc:And, you know, I was breaking the law, right?

00:07:57Marc:Walking down the street with a pound of weed on my body.

00:08:00Marc:But it was pretty fucking exciting.

00:08:02Marc:And the only reason I did it was for weed.

00:08:04Marc:that thrill of uh you know just being transport and and it took me a lot to to muster up the will to do it and then to uh sort of figure out how i would get out of it if i got caught hey it's it's not mine it's for my friend you know that one that always works but i guess the thrill of pulling it off and then getting a bag of weed because of it was uh you know i was a fucking outlaw man this fucking outlaw and

00:08:31Marc:And I think that part of this whole thing with, you know, getting legal weed for Kit and then putting it in a bag and putting it in my car that she pointed out to me that, you know, you're you're fucking old school and you're an old timer and you're an old man.

00:08:45Marc:There was a time where that was pretty thrilling.

00:08:48Marc:And I think that's probably true.

00:08:49Marc:It's just sort of like, look at all this weed.

00:08:51Marc:Back in the day, this would have cost a fortune.

00:08:53Marc:I'm just going to put it in my car.

00:08:56Marc:And then you're driving with this weed in the car and you're like, I don't even have to worry about it.

00:09:00Marc:So the thrill is gone, but there is some phantom limb there that gets reactivated when that stuff happens.

00:09:10Marc:So, look, Ben Stiller is here.

00:09:13Marc:Severance is streaming on Apple TV+.

00:09:15Marc:He has Emmy nominations this year for Outstanding Drama Series and Outstanding Directing for a Drama Series.

00:09:24Marc:And this is me talking to Ben.

00:09:26Marc:.

00:09:35Marc:So I haven't seen you in a long time.

00:09:37Marc:I know.

00:09:39Marc:It's been 15 years ago.

00:09:40Marc:15 years.

00:09:42Marc:Since we did this?

00:09:42Marc:Since we did this at the old house.

00:09:44Marc:That's fucking crazy.

00:09:45Marc:Isn't that crazy, dude?

00:09:46Marc:15 years.

00:09:47Guest:I was thinking about it.

00:09:48Marc:You're like one of the early guests.

00:09:50Guest:I was thinking like, maybe it was like seven years ago.

00:09:54Marc:No.

00:09:55No.

00:09:57Marc:Well, that's what happens.

00:09:59Marc:You enter this time zone of a certain age, which I guess we're at, where the things behind you compressed into like, what was that, last year?

00:10:07Marc:Yeah.

00:10:07Marc:No, dude.

00:10:07Marc:It was 10 years ago.

00:10:08Marc:No.

00:10:09Marc:And I don't know.

00:10:10Marc:I never feel like time is flying by when I'm in it.

00:10:14Marc:Right.

00:10:14Marc:But now when you hit this certain age, you're like, what the fuck?

00:10:18Marc:Now it didn't fly by, but it's gone.

00:10:21Guest:Yes.

00:10:22Yes.

00:10:22Guest:It's really weird.

00:10:24Guest:Yeah.

00:10:24Guest:And it definitely – it's – I mean, it's such a strange thing.

00:10:28Guest:Like, when you're in the moment, you're in the moment.

00:10:30Guest:Yeah.

00:10:31Guest:But then, yeah, I look at, like, friends that I have and people that – and watching my kids.

00:10:37Guest:Yeah.

00:10:37Guest:My daughter's 23.

00:10:39Guest:Jesus.

00:10:39Marc:Well, that's – I think that's a nice reality check with kids because sometimes when you don't see a friend for a few years and then you see them and you're like, holy fuck.

00:10:46Marc:Right.

00:10:47Marc:I got to go look at myself.

00:10:48Marc:I might not –

00:10:49Guest:If you look like everybody around me is aging horribly.

00:10:53Guest:Right.

00:10:54Guest:I don't change.

00:10:56Marc:Of course not.

00:10:56Marc:Not you.

00:10:57Marc:Yeah.

00:10:58Marc:Well, I've noticed and I've talked about on stage that the relationship we have with our mirror is not right.

00:11:06Marc:Yeah.

00:11:06Marc:Because you see pictures of yourself and you're like, oh, fuck.

00:11:09Marc:What's happening?

00:11:10Guest:I don't understand.

00:11:12Guest:No, no.

00:11:12Guest:But it's really depressing because I look in the mirror.

00:11:15Guest:Yeah.

00:11:16Guest:And you're like, I'm holding on.

00:11:17Guest:No, kind of.

00:11:18Guest:Oh.

00:11:18Guest:But then there are moments where I'm like, who the fuck?

00:11:21Guest:Like, whoa.

00:11:22Guest:I know.

00:11:22Guest:And then I think about my dad like saying to me when he was older.

00:11:26Guest:Yeah.

00:11:27Guest:I look at myself and I don't recognize who this person is.

00:11:31Guest:Because inside, he's still like 30.

00:11:34Guest:Yeah.

00:11:35Guest:And I'm that guy.

00:11:36Guest:Yeah.

00:11:37Guest:Sorry about your dad.

00:11:38Guest:Oh, well, thank you.

00:11:39Guest:I mean, it's been a while, right?

00:11:40Guest:It's been five years.

00:11:42Guest:Yeah.

00:11:43Guest:He was the best.

00:11:44Guest:Yeah.

00:11:44Guest:And he lived to almost 93.

00:11:46Marc:93?

00:11:47Marc:Yeah.

00:11:47Marc:And he had all his wits about him?

00:11:50Guest:Not all the way through.

00:11:53Guest:But he was, you know, he...

00:11:55Guest:He was there.

00:11:57Guest:He was always there, though.

00:11:58Guest:Yeah.

00:11:58Guest:But the last couple of years were tough.

00:12:00Guest:Yeah.

00:12:00Marc:Yeah.

00:12:01Marc:Because my dad's 86 and it's all going away.

00:12:03Marc:Yeah.

00:12:03Marc:And and when you say 93, I'm like, oh, Jesus, I hope it doesn't.

00:12:07Guest:No, it's a real it's a real thing.

00:12:08Guest:And, you know, my dad's sister is still alive, his younger sister.

00:12:12Guest:And of the four siblings that there was my dad, his sister, Doreen, his sister, Maxine, and his brother, Arnie, she's the one who's still alive.

00:12:21Guest:She's 90.

00:12:22Guest:Now she's 94.

00:12:23Guest:Yeah.

00:12:25Guest:It's a classic list.

00:12:25Guest:of Jewish names.

00:12:27Guest:Arnie.

00:12:30Guest:My uncle Arnie.

00:12:31Guest:Arnie, of course.

00:12:32Guest:Yeah, he had a lighting fixture company in Beverly Hills.

00:12:34Guest:Oh, good, yeah.

00:12:35Guest:Yeah, he did well for himself.

00:12:37Guest:He got out of Brooklyn.

00:12:38Guest:He moved to Chicago, became a traveling salesman.

00:12:41Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:12:42Guest:And married his high school sweetheart and did well.

00:12:46Marc:My grandpa Jack had a hardware store and an appliance store.

00:12:49Marc:Oh, wow.

00:12:50Marc:Did all right.

00:12:50Marc:Okay.

00:12:51Marc:Drove a big caddy in the hills of New Jersey.

00:12:54Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:12:55Marc:He did all right, those guys who sold things.

00:12:56Guest:Yeah.

00:12:56Guest:No, my dad's brother was sort of like the guy who went, he moved out to L.A.

00:13:02Guest:and he moved to Beverly Hills before my dad even was successful.

00:13:06Guest:And my dad and mom never moved out there.

00:13:09Marc:They never came out here?

00:13:10Marc:My mother hated L.A.

00:13:11Guest:So they were always in New York?

00:13:12Guest:Yes.

00:13:13Guest:I mean, there was a period of time when they came out here to work in the 70s, and we'd come out with them, and I loved it.

00:13:19Guest:I loved it.

00:13:19Guest:To be on all the shows?

00:13:20Guest:Yes.

00:13:20Guest:Yeah.

00:13:21Guest:Yeah, to do like Courtship of Eddie's Father.

00:13:23Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:24Guest:Did they do like Merv Griffin and stuff?

00:13:25Guest:They did Merv Griffin.

00:13:26Guest:They did, you know, like whatever, Hollywood Squares.

00:13:29Guest:Mike Douglas.

00:13:30Guest:Yeah, Mike Douglas.

00:13:31Guest:But Mike Douglas, you'd go to Philadelphia to do.

00:13:33Guest:Oh, it's Philly.

00:13:33Guest:He did it in Philly, and we'd all take a limousine down to Philadelphia.

00:13:37Marc:Oh, that's the best.

00:13:38Guest:Yeah.

00:13:38Guest:Yeah, it was so exciting.

00:13:40Guest:For me, I loved coming out here.

00:13:41Guest:But my mother never drove.

00:13:42Guest:Yeah.

00:13:43Guest:Hated it out here.

00:13:44Guest:So they would come out when they had to work.

00:13:46Guest:Yeah.

00:13:47Guest:Later on, they'd stay at the Chateau Marmont.

00:13:49Guest:And my dad would do King of Queens, Seinfeld the King of Queens.

00:13:52Guest:And my mom would stay at the Chateau with him.

00:13:54Guest:Yeah.

00:13:54Guest:And she'd take a cab to the Grove and go hang out and then just be there with Jerry.

00:13:58Guest:And it was really sweet.

00:14:00Guest:I mean, they hung out together a lot.

00:14:02Marc:That's so nice.

00:14:03Marc:Yeah, I met your mom once on some panel or something.

00:14:05Marc:I don't remember.

00:14:06Marc:Yeah.

00:14:07Guest:I mean, she was a tough fraud.

00:14:09Guest:A little scary?

00:14:11Guest:Yeah.

00:14:12Guest:I've been working on this documentary about them for the last five years.

00:14:16Guest:Five years?

00:14:17Guest:Yeah, and it's finally finished, and it's going to be coming out in October.

00:14:20Guest:On what?

00:14:22Guest:It's an Apple original film.

00:14:23Guest:It'll be on Apple service and also in theaters, too.

00:14:26Marc:Did you dig up all the old footage?

00:14:27Marc:Yeah.

00:14:28Guest:Oh, my God.

00:14:28Guest:So there's a lot of Mike Douglas.

00:14:30Guest:There's a lot of Merv Griffin.

00:14:32Guest:There's a lot of Barbara Walters doing a show.

00:14:36Guest:Barbara Walters did a Sunday morning show called Not For Women Only.

00:14:39Guest:Yeah.

00:14:39Guest:Where they would like have people in a studio and they'd talk about issues.

00:14:43Guest:So my parents are talking about a lot of real stuff.

00:14:46Guest:Oh, really?

00:14:46Guest:In their relationship.

00:14:47Marc:Did you learn anything?

00:14:48Guest:Yeah.

00:14:49Guest:Things that you didn't know about?

00:14:50Guest:Well, I mean, my dad also recorded a lot of their conversations.

00:14:54Guest:He recorded us a lot.

00:14:56Guest:Like Nixon?

00:14:58Guest:Kind of.

00:14:58Guest:Well, he would do a rehearsal.

00:14:59Guest:Like they'd rehearse and they'd improvise on their sketches.

00:15:03Guest:So they'd tape it and then he'd keep the tape going.

00:15:06Guest:So I'd have some arguments that they had and discussions about my mom's drinking.

00:15:12Guest:Really?

00:15:13Guest:Yes, it's all in the documentary.

00:15:14Guest:Was it triggering?

00:15:16Guest:Yeah.

00:15:16Guest:I mean, how could it not be?

00:15:18Guest:I know.

00:15:18Marc:But were there moments where you're just like, oh, my God.

00:15:21Guest:I mean, I still have those moments because I look at this thing and I'm like, it's kind of weird.

00:15:26Guest:Like sometimes I don't know if it's it's totally healthy because I'm like I go back and I'm like spending time with my parents.

00:15:31Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:15:32Guest:You know, it's like I'm it actually feels good.

00:15:35Guest:But it's the first time you're detached from it.

00:15:37Guest:Yes.

00:15:37Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:38Guest:Exactly.

00:15:38Marc:You're in a safe space.

00:15:39Guest:Right.

00:15:40Guest:And also, it's in a movie that I've made.

00:15:42Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:15:43Guest:So, in a way, like, I can control it.

00:15:45Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:15:46Marc:I'll show them.

00:15:48Marc:What if I put this here?

00:15:49Marc:Exactly.

00:15:50Guest:Yeah.

00:15:50Guest:But it's kind of great, too, because I feel like I did learn stuff about them, and I see them in a different context because I really do feel like I kind of understand a little bit more about how tough they're –

00:16:04Guest:work dynamic could be because they were tied to working together as a comedy team.

00:16:08Guest:And it was like, it was just all within the space of our apartment where they would have one room that they'd work in.

00:16:14Guest:After a while, they got an office on 57th Street.

00:16:17Guest:But a lot of it was just happening sort of like, you know, it was all like overlapping with our lives.

00:16:22Marc:Well, it's a weird thing when you like if you have difficult parents, no matter what they do, that to separate the bad things that you have in you of them.

00:16:32Marc:Right.

00:16:32Marc:From the good things.

00:16:34Marc:Yeah.

00:16:34Marc:Like how to manage like, well, this is not a great thing I've inherited from this person.

00:16:38Marc:How do I keep that under or like how do I manage that and embrace the other thing as opposed to just be pissed off?

00:16:46Guest:Yeah, and also I think when you're younger, there's a stuff that you rebel against.

00:16:48Guest:You say, I'm definitely not doing that.

00:16:50Guest:I'm not doing that.

00:16:50Guest:And then for me in life, life has gone on and I've made those mistakes.

00:16:56Guest:And I've done those things.

00:16:57Guest:And I see it from another perspective too, having kids and seeing my attitude towards my kids who both are wanting to – my daughter's an actress.

00:17:07Guest:My son's going studying.

00:17:08Guest:It's like my parents must have been thinking when I was doing it, those protective feelings, the concerns –

00:17:14Guest:all that stuff.

00:17:14Marc:Is there any part of you that's sort of like, don't do show business?

00:17:18Marc:Uh, sure.

00:17:18Marc:Sure.

00:17:19Marc:It's like, you know, I got, I got lucky.

00:17:21Marc:I got talent.

00:17:22Marc:I made it, but most people don't.

00:17:25Guest:Well, I think, I think that's how my dad, I know that's how my dad felt about me going into it.

00:17:29Guest:But as soon as he saw that I was serious about really, like I was just going to do it.

00:17:33Guest:Yeah.

00:17:33Guest:He was supportive and then protective.

00:17:36Guest:Yeah.

00:17:36Guest:My mother was a little bit more at arm's length with it.

00:17:40Guest:Um,

00:17:40Guest:I don't know how to explain it.

00:17:42Guest:She was not what she wasn't not that she wasn't supportive.

00:17:45Guest:She just was a tougher audience.

00:17:47Guest:You know, so the bar was a little bit higher.

00:17:50Guest:And by the way, I like I actually sort of feel like I have a similar sensibility to my mother.

00:17:56Guest:than my father, more similarly than my father.

00:17:58Guest:Really?

00:17:59Guest:Yeah.

00:18:00Guest:Like, yeah, in terms of, like, the stuff that my mother, like, my mother would, like, love Spinal Tap.

00:18:04Marc:Right.

00:18:05Guest:My dad, I think, would appreciate Spinal Tap, but not really.

00:18:07Guest:But didn't quite get it.

00:18:07Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:08Guest:Exactly.

00:18:08Marc:Because he's broader.

00:18:09Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:18:10Guest:Bigger.

00:18:10Guest:Yeah, he was from, like, the Eddie Cantor generation.

00:18:12Guest:He was sort of like, I don't get it.

00:18:13Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:18:14Guest:I mean, and he would enjoy it.

00:18:15Guest:He wasn't, like, tough on things like that.

00:18:17Guest:Right, right.

00:18:17Guest:But my mother really loved, like, the nuance of those, like, show business humor and things like that.

00:18:21Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:22Yeah.

00:18:22Marc:Well, I mean, I just watched, what was it, Day Trippers?

00:18:25Marc:Yeah, she's great.

00:18:26Marc:She's so good in that.

00:18:27Guest:Yeah, she's a good actress.

00:18:29Guest:No, she's great.

00:18:29Guest:Yeah, and she's in Fame, the movie Fame.

00:18:31Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:32Guest:She plays the mean English teacher.

00:18:34Marc:But when she was like, it's already...

00:18:37Marc:A problem when you have a mom that's like not necessarily judgmental, but slightly diminishing, you know, just in terms of whatever that is in their in their being that does that.

00:18:46Marc:But to perform for your mother and to not get the laugh or something, it must be like that must really kind of give you some chops of some kind.

00:18:53Guest:Yeah, I mean, I guess so.

00:18:56Guest:I don't ever remember like really like performing for her.

00:18:59Guest:You're not bouncing bits off her?

00:19:00Guest:No, it was more like kind of when I went out in the world and started acting and doing my stuff, what she responded to.

00:19:07Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:19:08Marc:But when she didn't respond, what did she say?

00:19:11Marc:Like, I don't.

00:19:11Marc:It was never like a direct.

00:19:13Marc:I don't get it.

00:19:13Guest:What are you doing?

00:19:14Guest:It was just more like like I remember when.

00:19:18Guest:Yeah.

00:19:19Guest:Yeah.

00:19:19Guest:No, no.

00:19:19Guest:She'd be like, oh, yeah, that was good.

00:19:20Guest:That was good.

00:19:21Guest:Did you see like when I was making this is like first of all, like I had the probably I had a great close relationship with my mother, especially as she got older.

00:19:30Guest:Yeah.

00:19:31Guest:And but she like like when I made was I was making Secret Life of Walter Mitty.

00:19:36Guest:That's a big one.

00:19:37Guest:Argo had just come out.

00:19:38Guest:And she was like obsessed with Argo.

00:19:40Guest:And she's like, oh, do you see Argo?

00:19:42Guest:I was like, yeah, yeah, it's really good.

00:19:43Guest:She's like, oh, it's so good.

00:19:44Guest:Argo, fuck yourself.

00:19:45Guest:I'm like, yeah, yeah.

00:19:46Guest:I'm like, mom, did you check out my movie?

00:19:51Guest:I mean, it was a subtle thing, but it would just be like, oh, why can't?

00:19:56Marc:It's the worst.

00:19:57Marc:Yeah.

00:19:57Marc:Before I had any visibility, my dad would say things like, hey, why don't you maybe call Bill Maher?

00:20:04Marc:Maybe he can help you out.

00:20:07Marc:Exactly.

00:20:07Marc:Right.

00:20:08Marc:No matter what you do.

00:20:09Marc:Right.

00:20:09Marc:No matter what you do.

00:20:10Guest:And Walter Mitty was a huge movie.

00:20:12Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:13Guest:She'd be like, why don't you do a movie with the Coen brothers?

00:20:16Guest:I would happily if they called me.

00:20:18Guest:It's never enough.

00:20:24Guest:What did she like that you did?

00:20:25Guest:She liked the stuff I did with Noah Baumbach, like Greenberg.

00:20:29Guest:Or Permanent Midnight, she liked a lot.

00:20:32Guest:The Meyerowitz stories I just rewatched.

00:20:34Marc:That's such a fucking great movie.

00:20:36Guest:Yeah, it's a good movie.

00:20:38Guest:He's great.

00:20:39Guest:Noah's great.

00:20:40Guest:And Adam's great in it.

00:20:41Guest:Adam's so good in it.

00:20:42Guest:It's crazy.

00:20:43Guest:And Dustin Hoffman's great.

00:20:44Marc:And just the end of that movie where they go into the basement and they take out that box.

00:20:49Marc:I know.

00:20:50Guest:It's the fucking best.

00:20:52Guest:Yeah.

00:20:52Marc:No, it's very moving.

00:20:54Guest:Oh, my God.

00:20:55Marc:So I have to tell you, like –

00:20:59Marc:I was watching the Academy Awards, and I talked to you about this 15 years ago.

00:21:03Marc:15 years ago.

00:21:05Marc:But it was a different bit.

00:21:06Marc:But it's so funny that the way I'm wired to receive you is like when Conan brought you up that Ben Stiller was going to present.

00:21:15Marc:I was like, here we go.

00:21:19Guest:Now we're going to get a laugh.

00:21:20Marc:I don't know what he's going to do.

00:21:22Guest:Oh, the pressure.

00:21:25Guest:It was so funny, though.

00:21:26Guest:It literally paid off.

00:21:28Guest:It satisfied.

00:21:29Guest:I'm very happy that it worked out.

00:21:32Guest:Those things are so surreal.

00:21:34Marc:But I don't know how you do that.

00:21:36Marc:I mean, outside of whether you want to hear it or not, I think you're one of the best physical comedians ever.

00:21:44Marc:But it's so natural because it's not something that I have.

00:21:47Marc:If I'm going to do a physical bit, I've got to work on it.

00:21:50Marc:Right.

00:21:50Marc:Yeah, I mean, it seems that you can just do it.

00:21:53Marc:Like the end of my last special, I mean, I had to orchestrate this thing and figure out the beats.

00:21:58Guest:But you've got to do that, right?

00:21:59Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:22:00Guest:I mean, those are all, like, technical things.

00:22:02Guest:How did you get the timing?

00:22:03Marc:You had to trust the guy?

00:22:05Guest:Yeah, we went through it in rehearsal, and I just basically said, you know, I've learned what the parameters of the elevator thing were.

00:22:11Guest:And then I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't too easy.

00:22:16Guest:And in rehearsal, it was too hard.

00:22:19Guest:Too easy for what?

00:22:20Guest:Too easy to get up.

00:22:21Guest:Like when the thing started going down and I like finally got up at the end.

00:22:24Guest:And I wanted to make sure that it wasn't too easy so it didn't look like fake.

00:22:28Guest:Right, right, right.

00:22:29Guest:But in rehearsal, they made it too hard.

00:22:32Guest:And I literally couldn't try to do it.

00:22:33Guest:And people were laughing.

00:22:35Guest:I was like, no, this isn't funny.

00:22:36Guest:I literally can't get up there.

00:22:38Guest:But it would be funny if I could almost do it and then finally get up there.

00:22:41Guest:So it was just like trying to figure out the right height.

00:22:43Guest:And then I did that thing where I was jumping up and down.

00:22:46Guest:And so I realized I needed a mini-tramp, so they slid a mini-tramp in there for me.

00:22:51Guest:So that was the thing I was most stressed about was that I'd miss on the mini-tramp and like, you know, haul and not come back up.

00:22:56Guest:Yeah.

00:22:57Guest:And then I just wanted to get the words out.

00:23:00Guest:Right.

00:23:00Guest:That was the other thing.

00:23:01Guest:Because you just, on those things, you just don't want to, you just don't want to screw up the words.

00:23:05Guest:Right.

00:23:05Guest:You want to just like have it go smooth.

00:23:07Guest:Because like one little flub kind of just, because it's so short, it just throws off the whole thing.

00:23:11Guest:Yeah.

00:23:11Guest:And it's remembered.

00:23:12Guest:Yeah.

00:23:12Guest:So it was just like, can I just get the words out?

00:23:14Guest:Will I be able to read the teleprompter without my glasses?

00:23:18Guest:And is the height of the elevator thing right?

00:23:19Guest:And then it just becomes like, all right, like write that moment before you do it.

00:23:23Guest:Yeah.

00:23:23Guest:And the thing, the guy puts the elevator down, you're just hearing like, why am I doing this?

00:23:26Yeah.

00:23:26Guest:What is my life about?

00:23:27Guest:This doesn't even matter.

00:23:30Guest:Of course it doesn't matter.

00:23:31Guest:Yeah, whatever.

00:23:32Guest:Whatever happens, happens.

00:23:33Guest:These are just human beings sitting in a room.

00:23:35Guest:And then it's calming yourself down.

00:23:37Guest:Well, just sort of like, didn't I do this like 20 years ago?

00:23:40Guest:Have I not progressed any further in my career?

00:23:44Marc:Yeah.

00:23:44Marc:Well, that's definitely not true, but because like the timing of it.

00:23:48Marc:No, no.

00:23:48Guest:I give myself credit for recognizing when they pitched me a couple of ideas that I was like, okay, that idea seems like it's funny and simple.

00:23:57Guest:Because it was so simple that I thought, okay, this is just an execution.

00:24:00Marc:But it had to time out right.

00:24:01Marc:Like you had to come up and then it had to stop.

00:24:03Guest:Right.

00:24:03Guest:Then you're also at the mercy of the technical people.

00:24:06Guest:That's what I mean.

00:24:06Guest:Right.

00:24:07Guest:So you just have to trust them that they're going to do what you did in rehearsal.

00:24:09Guest:Right, right.

00:24:10Guest:And thankfully, they were great and they did it.

00:24:12Guest:Oh, it's so fucking funny.

00:24:13Guest:And then you're just so happy when it's over.

00:24:15Guest:Yeah.

00:24:16Guest:So happy when it's over.

00:24:17Guest:But if it lands, it landed good.

00:24:18Guest:No, no.

00:24:19Guest:When it lands, it's great.

00:24:20Guest:It's great.

00:24:20Guest:And you come off and you're just so happy and you see people with their Oscars and then you're like, oh, they have an Oscar and I did a bit.

00:24:28Guest:But it's not nothing.

00:24:29Guest:And the person with the ostrich is like, oh my God, you were so funny.

00:24:32Guest:You were so funny.

00:24:32Guest:I'm like, thanks.

00:24:33Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:34Marc:Congrats, yeah.

00:24:35Marc:I gotta go.

00:24:37Marc:Wait, you haven't gotten an Oscar yet?

00:24:39Marc:Not yet.

00:24:40Marc:Oh, God damn it.

00:24:41Marc:It's just killing you, huh?

00:24:42Guest:You know, at this point, when you hit this point in your life.

00:24:45Guest:I've won nothing.

00:24:47Guest:You have to look at what are your goals?

00:24:49Guest:Because do you want to spend your last 20 years worrying about the stuff that you haven't gotten?

00:24:54Marc:But isn't that weird, though?

00:24:55Marc:It's not even like worrying about it.

00:24:57Marc:Because for some reason, my timing, I'll blame timing.

00:25:01Marc:Yeah.

00:25:01Marc:Like, I've gotten no prizes.

00:25:04Marc:And, well, I got one for podcasting that was important within our medium.

00:25:09Marc:Right, right.

00:25:09Marc:But there's still this thing where, and I don't do as much as you in the big time show business, but you just, you can spend your whole life saying it doesn't matter.

00:25:19Marc:Right.

00:25:19Marc:Like, you know, you're doing the work, but it so fucking matters.

00:25:22Guest:Right.

00:25:22Guest:It matters in that people, you know, it's an acknowledgement and it's an ego thing that we all would love.

00:25:28Guest:Yes, the ego thing.

00:25:30Guest:But it's also, it's very, I think it's a very real thing that if you focus on that, I mean, that's like, you know, Tropic Thunder, whatever.

00:25:37Guest:It's like actors like getting obsessed with, you know, you can't do it.

00:25:41Guest:It's not something you can focus on going like, I want that prize, so I'm going to do this work.

00:25:45Guest:It just doesn't work.

00:25:47Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:25:48Marc:It doesn't work at all.

00:25:48Marc:Well, no, you can't.

00:25:49Marc:I mean, you can do the best work you can and then think it deserves an award.

00:25:52Guest:Right.

00:25:53Guest:But then also, of course, there's also like all of the machinations that go behind that and everything.

00:25:57Guest:Well, that's the thing.

00:25:58Guest:Yes.

00:25:59Marc:It's not like based on some system of merit.

00:26:01Marc:Right.

00:26:02Marc:Right.

00:26:02Marc:But then I look at like Daniel Day-Lewis.

00:26:04Guest:I'm like, yeah, of course.

00:26:05Marc:But usually it's just based on our peers or the hundreds of people who we don't know in show business going through a site going like, I didn't see that, but I like him.

00:26:14Guest:Right.

00:26:15Guest:Exactly.

00:26:15Guest:Right.

00:26:15Guest:Exactly.

00:26:16Guest:And the campaigning and what people, you know, which, which, you know, it was funny.

00:26:20Guest:I was talking to Seth Rogen last night and we were talking about having a TV show and all of the Emmy campaigning stuff and all that stuff that happens.

00:26:28Guest:Right.

00:26:28Guest:Yeah.

00:26:29Guest:And when you have a successful show, the stuff that you were not aware of or us both having done movies for a lot of years going like, I never knew there was like this American Film Institute top 10 movies and shows luncheon that's been going on for like 30 years.

00:26:44Guest:Yeah.

00:26:44Guest:Because we were never invited.

00:26:45Guest:it's like all of a sudden like now your show is getting recognized oh wait there's this thing and then yeah oh yeah we've been doing the you know Spielberg yeah I've been doing these things for years it's like oh this is just something that was not on my calendar nobody no one told you it's not like anybody tells you like oh this is happening but you don't have to do it it's just it happens and nobody and no one wants you to be there yeah yeah yeah

00:27:05Marc:Well, I realize that, too, about the Directors Guild.

00:27:09Marc:When I talk to directors, they all kind of know each other because it's a relatively small community.

00:27:16Marc:The Directors Guild is not 10,000 people.

00:27:20Marc:It's like, what, a few hundred of you?

00:27:23Guest:I'm not sure how many, but it's definitely smaller than the Academy.

00:27:26Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:27:27Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:28Marc:But it feels like a kind of a unified bunch somehow.

00:27:30Marc:Yeah.

00:27:30Guest:Yeah, and also, I mean, honestly, the Directors Guild Awards and those things, like, those are the things that are, like, when it's your peers, you know, those are the things you really appreciate because it's people that you really appreciate.

00:27:43Guest:Sure.

00:27:43Guest:So even to be able to, like, hang out with those guys or to go to one of those events and talk with other directors, for me, is always the most enjoyable.

00:27:52Marc:It's the best, right?

00:27:52Guest:Yeah, because I really, you know, I really love...

00:27:56Guest:And to be able to talk to, like yesterday, I also got to talk to Rob Reiner because they were doing something for Spinal Tap, too.

00:28:03Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:28:04Guest:And we did an interview.

00:28:05Marc:Did he say this?

00:28:05Marc:Trump, right?

00:28:06Marc:Yeah.

00:28:08Guest:He did not bring Trump up.

00:28:10Guest:He didn't.

00:28:11Guest:He didn't bring Trump up.

00:28:11Guest:He's so funny, dude.

00:28:12Guest:But I also got to, like, say to him, like, I sort of, like, got to fanboy to him because, like, this guy's made some, like, more than a lot of incredible movies.

00:28:21Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:21Guest:You know?

00:28:22Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:28:22Guest:And it's just sort of that appreciation for me, like, even as a kid growing up watching movies, even when my folks were in the business, I just, I really, I kind of nerd out because I love movies.

00:28:33Marc:He did The Princess Bride?

00:28:35Marc:Yeah.

00:28:35Marc:And didn't he do Stand By Me?

00:28:37Marc:Yeah.

00:28:37Guest:And he did A Few Good Men.

00:28:38Guest:And he did Spinal Tap.

00:28:40Guest:I mean, he did Misery.

00:28:41Guest:It's like the guy has had a run.

00:28:42Guest:Yeah.

00:28:43Guest:Yeah.

00:28:44Guest:Wow.

00:28:44Guest:Yeah.

00:28:44Guest:He's a really good director and different genres.

00:28:47Marc:And you know what's great about him is like there's no affectation.

00:28:50Marc:He's just a loud Jew.

00:28:52Marc:You know, that way you can come right down to it.

00:28:53Marc:He's like, what?

00:28:54Marc:I know.

00:28:55Marc:Yeah.

00:28:55Guest:But he's so funny.

00:28:58Guest:Like, as an actor, Meathead.

00:28:59Guest:The best.

00:29:00Guest:Meathead is, right?

00:29:01Guest:He was like, come on, arch, arch.

00:29:03Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:04Guest:But then in Spinal Tap, he's the best straight man.

00:29:06Guest:The best.

00:29:07Guest:He just sets them up, asks them the questions.

00:29:09Guest:They're improvising.

00:29:10Guest:He knows how to just not react or react.

00:29:13Marc:I mean, I don't know.

00:29:14Marc:I really appreciate that.

00:29:15Marc:Did you watch the doc with him and Albert?

00:29:17Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:17Marc:That's pretty funny.

00:29:18Marc:It was a very managed situation, but it was funny.

00:29:21Guest:But you know what?

00:29:21Guest:I'm glad somebody is giving Albert Brooks the...

00:29:24Marc:It took me so long to get him.

00:29:27Marc:I had him on.

00:29:28Marc:But he made me go.

00:29:29Marc:He didn't want to come here.

00:29:31Marc:I don't know why.

00:29:31Marc:He didn't want me to come to his house.

00:29:34Marc:Where did you do it?

00:29:35Marc:He got a room at that old deco kind of hotel on Santa Monica, the Georgia or something.

00:29:40Marc:It's a beautiful place.

00:29:42Marc:But he's like, meet me here.

00:29:44Marc:We'll do it there.

00:29:44Marc:And that's where –

00:29:46Marc:That's where it happened.

00:29:47Marc:Was it fun?

00:29:47Guest:It was great.

00:29:48Marc:It was great.

00:29:50Marc:He's the best.

00:29:50Guest:I just watched the other day the Albert Brooks School of Comedy.

00:29:54Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:55Guest:The early short.

00:29:56Guest:The S&L one?

00:29:57Guest:Yeah.

00:29:57Guest:Oh, my God.

00:29:58Guest:It's like one of his earliest ones where he walks in the room and they're doing spit takes.

00:30:01Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:01Guest:And then the guy's talking about things that are, like, funny and things that aren't funny and, like, cancer.

00:30:06Guest:Cancer, not funny.

00:30:07Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:08Marc:He's just so funny.

00:30:10Marc:But yeah, I think I'm slowly compiling a list of modern masterpieces.

00:30:16Marc:Yeah.

00:30:16Marc:And Tropic Thunder is pretty high up there.

00:30:18Marc:Oh, wow.

00:30:19Marc:But apparently, according to my producer, the last time we were on, we talked about that the entire show.

00:30:23Guest:We did?

00:30:23Guest:Okay.

00:30:24Guest:That's how long ago Tropic Thunder was.

00:30:26Guest:What have you done lately?

00:30:27Guest:Well, I watched it.

00:30:28Guest:I watched it again.

00:30:28Guest:Oh, wow.

00:30:30Guest:Really?

00:30:30Guest:Yeah.

00:30:31Marc:It's the fucking best.

00:30:32Guest:Yeah.

00:30:32Guest:Yeah, I'm so happy that it has a life, you know?

00:30:36Guest:I try to keep things alive, you know, with people.

00:30:39Guest:But it does have a life.

00:30:40Guest:It does, yeah.

00:30:40Marc:You kind of get feedback from it.

00:30:42Guest:Yes, I do, yeah.

00:30:43Guest:And also a lot of it is in relation to, like, the, you know, cancel culture and, like, you couldn't make that movie today.

00:30:48Guest:Oh, right, right, right.

00:30:49Guest:That's, like, a perennial sort of question.

00:30:51Marc:What do you think of that, though?

00:30:52Marc:I mean, like, when you think of...

00:30:56Marc:We'll talk about the other stuff.

00:30:57Marc:But, like, those type of... Well, just film comedy in general.

00:31:00Guest:Yeah.

00:31:01Marc:I mean, are they even doing it?

00:31:02Guest:I don't think it exists right now.

00:31:03Marc:It's kind of weird, right?

00:31:04Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:05Guest:Because no one's willing to take a chance or what?

00:31:07Guest:I don't know.

00:31:08Guest:I don't know.

00:31:08Guest:I mean, I think it's just the movie economics right now is that there are... The movies that are in theaters are not... You know, are movies that have to... Seem like they have to make a huge amount of money.

00:31:17Guest:Right.

00:31:18Guest:Like a billion dollars.

00:31:19Marc:And then comedy had its day.

00:31:20Marc:It used to make money.

00:31:21Guest:Yeah, it did.

00:31:22Guest:And people not going... Like...

00:31:25Guest:I feel bad that people can't experience the fun of what we used to experience all the time, which was comedies in theaters and people laughing their asses off.

00:31:33Guest:Yeah.

00:31:34Guest:And just feeling that energy in the theater.

00:31:36Guest:No more.

00:31:36Guest:It was so exciting.

00:31:38Guest:How did we get them back?

00:31:39Guest:I don't know.

00:31:40Guest:They're hard to land.

00:31:42Guest:I think show business is in a weird place in terms of just what streaming has done to movies.

00:31:48Guest:And, you know, I'm happy that movies are – that blockbuster movies are working and that people are going to the theaters.

00:31:54Guest:But it's hard to, you know, make something that is not a blockbuster now or is not a sequel or is not a genre movie like a horror movie that they can make for a number.

00:32:05Marc:Horror movies, that's the thing.

00:32:06Marc:It seems like all the creative, like, truly inspired people are going to horror because it's a place with the most freedom.

00:32:12Guest:Yeah.

00:32:12Guest:And it's a genre where they can make them for, you know, a budget that would then, you know, they'll get the money back at the theater.

00:32:19Guest:Yeah.

00:32:19Guest:And it's, yeah, it's too bad that, like, the movies that we grew up watching in the theaters, you know, dramas and comedies.

00:32:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:28Guest:mid-budget movies, you know, that, you know, like Dog Day Afternoon and movies like that were like mainstream movies.

00:32:34Guest:The best.

00:32:35Marc:Yeah, the best.

00:32:36Marc:That one's crazy.

00:32:36Marc:I hosted it at the Cinematech screening.

00:32:39Marc:Yeah, recently.

00:32:41Marc:Yeah, not from last year.

00:32:42Marc:They gave me, they were like, do you want to host a movie?

00:32:45Marc:And I'm like, yeah.

00:32:46Marc:And my first one was Dog Day.

00:32:47Marc:Oh, so great.

00:32:48Marc:And by coincidence, some woman who's a listener

00:32:52Marc:Was the assistant editor on it.

00:32:54Marc:And she had this story about having to bring the one cut that existed up to a screening room for Lumet and Pacino.

00:33:02Marc:And she left it on the ground when she was getting into a cab and it got run over by a bus.

00:33:07Marc:Oh, my God.

00:33:07Marc:The one print.

00:33:08Marc:So this day of panic, of hoping the film wasn't damaged and then not telling them.

00:33:12Marc:It all worked out.

00:33:14Marc:But what a great fucking story.

00:33:15Marc:The idea that that time existed, like you got the one print.

00:33:18Marc:Yeah, the print.

00:33:19Marc:Holy fuck.

00:33:20Marc:I know.

00:33:21Marc:But I wish there was more comedy.

00:33:22Marc:I keep thinking like the last time I, did you watch that movie with Nicolas Cage, the dream scenario?

00:33:28Marc:I didn't see it, no.

00:33:29Marc:Oh boy, there's a fart scene in that that's worth the last 10 years of comedy.

00:33:33Guest:Really?

00:33:33Marc:Oh my God.

00:33:34Marc:Okay.

00:33:34Marc:I had not heard about that.

00:33:36Marc:Oh, my God.

00:33:37Marc:Yeah.

00:33:37Marc:And then when I was watching that, just the laughs of something that simple, I was like, where are these movies?

00:33:43Marc:Where's the whole fart movie?

00:33:45Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:33:46Guest:I have to believe that it's going to come back.

00:33:48Marc:And you actually mocked that in Tropic Thunder.

00:33:50Guest:Yeah.

00:33:50Marc:Farty's fart, too.

00:33:54Guest:I mean, I wish I knew what the answer was other than I think somebody has to make a comedy that a studio puts in theaters that does well.

00:34:03Marc:And also like a lot of the – I don't know who the truly hilarious people are that have the gravitas to carry a movie.

00:34:12Guest:Well, that's a whole other –

00:34:13Guest:discussion, I think, in terms of not having a runway for actors to build a career in movies, because that doesn't really exist anymore.

00:34:22Guest:Right.

00:34:23Marc:So they can't hold it.

00:34:25Guest:Yeah, because, right, so then there's sort of this catch-22 where the studios want to have a recognizable star in a movie, so to kind of guarantee that people are going to go, but then there hasn't been any ladder to build those stars, so it's stuck with people like old people.

00:34:40Guest:Old guys.

00:34:41Guest:People know somehow that that model can't last forever.

00:34:48Guest:It's too bad because there's so many talented people who should be in the movies and that should be big movie stars.

00:34:55Marc:But I guess you're right that the business of movies doesn't exist in the same way.

00:34:58Guest:yeah at all yeah so they've got to find it's like they're not willing to take the chances on the movies that will create stars yeah and so you get plugged in maybe you know somebody gets plugged into a superhero movie or something like that and then they get a career that way yeah it's it's it's unfortunate because uh you know that's that there's a dearth of uh yeah of those people but you don't have but you're interested i mean it's not like a dearth of like talented actors it's just like proven actors in movies you know that yeah sure a chance to carry something

00:35:27Marc:Well, some people are hilarious that are – they're movie stars that are hilarious that aren't essentially comic actors.

00:35:34Marc:And when they do comedy, like if Clooney does a comedy or Matt Damon, you're happy about it.

00:35:38Marc:But still wear the young guns of the funny stuff.

00:35:41Guest:Yeah.

00:35:42Guest:Well, that's also the—I always feel like that's also bonus comedy.

00:35:45Guest:Like, it's always easy to have bonus comedy in something where you're not expecting it to necessarily be funny.

00:35:50Guest:Yeah.

00:35:50Guest:But the humor is added in.

00:35:52Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:35:53Guest:And then you really appreciate it.

00:35:54Guest:Oh, it's the best, yeah.

00:35:54Guest:Even, like, on Severance, I feel like it's so much less pressure because it's not a comedy.

00:35:59Marc:It's just— Well, yeah, but there's some funny—there's very funny shit in it.

00:36:03Guest:Yeah, but I feel like we're allowed to put that in there because there's no expectation of, like, okay, we're the laughs.

00:36:10Guest:Yeah.

00:36:10Marc:Right.

00:36:10Marc:And that's a load off.

00:36:12Guest:Yes, it's a load off.

00:36:13Marc:But that's interesting.

00:36:14Marc:So, but your interest in comedy in terms of projects or directing is limited if not there at this point, right?

00:36:22Guest:There's an interest.

00:36:24Guest:There is.

00:36:24Guest:I'm just, I don't know how to figure it out really right now.

00:36:27Marc:Because Severance, for me, not being totally a sci-fi guy and being impatient.

00:36:35Guest:Sounds like the show for you.

00:36:36Yeah.

00:36:37Marc:No, my girlfriend loved it.

00:36:39Marc:I mean, she was crazy about it.

00:36:40Marc:She's got this dream that you could put her dog into the next season.

00:36:44Marc:I don't know why.

00:36:45Guest:Oh, really?

00:36:45Marc:Yeah, she's got this miniature bull terrier that she just thinks should be a star.

00:36:50Marc:But no pressure.

00:36:53Marc:Let's have a meet and greet.

00:36:54Marc:Yeah, okay.

00:36:55Marc:You can Zoom with the dog.

00:36:56Marc:But yeah, I watched all of it.

00:36:59Marc:But for me, and I appreciated it, but at some point with shows like that, about halfway through, I'm like,

00:37:05Guest:All right, let's just, let's wrap it up.

00:37:09Guest:Where's this going?

00:37:10Guest:How long do I got to wait?

00:37:11Guest:I can't figure it out.

00:37:12Guest:I can't figure it out.

00:37:15Guest:I understand.

00:37:15Guest:I get that.

00:37:16Marc:But I think it was great.

00:37:17Marc:It was beautiful.

00:37:18Marc:It was funny.

00:37:19Marc:It was like, and she said to me, interesting.

00:37:21Marc:She said, well, if you've never worked in a job, it's not going to land the same way.

00:37:25Guest:You know, what's interesting to me about it is like I never worked in a cubicle office job ever, too.

00:37:31Guest:So like I'm sort of fascinated with that world because I never experienced it.

00:37:35Guest:For me, what was interesting about it was I was excited was when I read the pilot.

00:37:39Guest:I thought the tone of it was so unique.

00:37:41Guest:Yeah.

00:37:41Guest:And it reminded me of these office comedies.

00:37:44Guest:OK.

00:37:45Guest:It reminded me of like The Office or Parks and Rec or it just had this banter.

00:37:50Guest:But it wasn't written as a comedy.

00:37:51Guest:It was written as like a weird, like, I think there were elements of humor.

00:37:56Guest:I think he was thinking about, like, what if the office was in, like, this weird twilight zone.

00:38:01Guest:Right.

00:38:02Guest:Where people, like, were going to work and doing their thing, but they didn't know who they were, what they were doing, or why they were there.

00:38:07Marc:Right.

00:38:08Guest:And so, you know, it's a little bit of this sort of, like, you know, six characters in search of an author.

00:38:12Guest:Sure, sure.

00:38:12Marc:But that's one of the, it's such a high concept.

00:38:14Marc:That's like Charlie Kaufman's script.

00:38:17Guest:Yeah.

00:38:17Marc:Where you're just sort of like, what?

00:38:18Guest:Yeah.

00:38:19Guest:No, but the basic idea behind it was like, what if you could just shut off your outside life when you go to work?

00:38:25Guest:And then when you left work, you don't remember what happened and you just go back to your life.

00:38:29Guest:So you don't have to have the drudgery of, you know, eight hours or 10 hours at work.

00:38:33Guest:Right.

00:38:33Guest:And so that was where it came out of for Dan Erickson.

00:38:37Guest:Yeah.

00:38:38Guest:The idea of like, well, how can you – can you really deaden parts of your – like can you deaden pain?

00:38:46Guest:Can you mask pain?

00:38:48Guest:Can you forget things?

00:38:49Guest:Can you cut them off?

00:38:49Marc:Can you turn off your sense of self?

00:38:52Guest:Yeah.

00:38:53Guest:And then the question is like, well, then what – if you have two selves –

00:38:56Guest:The one that goes to work and the one that's outside.

00:38:58Guest:Which is the real one?

00:38:59Guest:Right.

00:39:00Guest:And can we compartmentalize like that?

00:39:02Guest:And then the questions in the show through the second season become like, well, who's more important to any or the Audi?

00:39:08Guest:Right.

00:39:09Guest:And, yeah.

00:39:09Marc:So the device of the implant was always there from the beginning?

00:39:13Guest:Yeah, from the beginning.

00:39:14Guest:What I thought was really interesting was that it's not really a sci-fi show because the only sci-fi part of it is...

00:39:20Guest:The chip.

00:39:21Guest:Yeah.

00:39:22Guest:The chip is just like if we believe there's a chip you can put in your head that could get triggered and cut off your memory from the outside world.

00:39:30Guest:All the guy's doing is he has a chip in his head and he goes into an elevator.

00:39:33Marc:Yeah.

00:39:33Guest:And he literally just goes down.

00:39:34Guest:Gets activated.

00:39:35Guest:Yeah.

00:39:36Guest:So there's nothing like magical happening.

00:39:38Marc:So it's not sci fi because like, come on, they can do that, man.

00:39:41Marc:They could do that.

00:39:42Guest:Right, right.

00:39:42Guest:Which, by the way, yeah, they're on their way to being able to do it.

00:39:45Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:39:45Guest:Yeah, Neuralink and all that stuff.

00:39:47Guest:Right.

00:39:47Guest:But that's what was interesting to me was like, okay, so this is actually just like a guy going down the elevator, but he just doesn't remember who he is upstairs.

00:39:54Guest:Right.

00:39:55Guest:And then there's also a weird sort of like mystical kind of company, you know.

00:40:01Guest:History.

00:40:01Guest:History and, you know, ethos that is, you know, very religious.

00:40:06Guest:Secret society kind of thing.

00:40:07Guest:Yeah.

00:40:07Marc:Who came up with that?

00:40:09Guest:That was all part of the original script.

00:40:10Guest:Really?

00:40:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:12Guest:And then we kind of developed it out as, you know, we worked on the episodes to really this company lore, the idea of sort of, you know, like the company being almost a religion, you know.

00:40:25Guest:Sure.

00:40:25Guest:And that goes back to like, you know, like to Amway.

00:40:28Guest:Even earlier.

00:40:29Guest:Yeah.

00:40:29Marc:You know, like the, what was the one, the Kellogg's or somebody, the one that started as sort of this health food cult.

00:40:36Marc:Right.

00:40:37Marc:Right.

00:40:37Marc:And then eventually became a serial.

00:40:39Marc:Right.

00:40:39Marc:Or whatever.

00:40:40Marc:Yeah, I think they were all the early sort of business entrepreneurs were kind of hucksters on some level.

00:40:46Guest:Yeah.

00:40:47Guest:And the question of this guy, Kear Egan, who created the company, what his story – around the time of the Civil War.

00:40:55Guest:Yeah.

00:40:56Guest:And a guy who was trying to figure out something that would help you dead in pain –

00:41:02Marc:But so, you know, building out the secret society or religious cult or the, like, how did that evolve?

00:41:09Marc:How many writers were on that thing?

00:41:10Guest:It's like basically a very small group.

00:41:12Guest:It was Dan Erickson who created the show and they had a couple of other guys, Mark Friedman, the first

00:41:18Guest:first season and myself and dan and mark spent a lot of time talking about all of it yeah and it was all out of dan's mind right we really wanted there to be like a very very specific history that these people were taught because imagine if you're in this world where you don't know anything else this corporate theology and ideology becomes everything for these innies because they don't have any other religion or any memory of a life that's right so they're blank slates when they come

00:41:45Guest:And so in a way, you know, there is a certain amount of cult-like, you know, sort of activity going on.

00:41:52Marc:And how does it feel to like, you know, have a show where you've got an entire sort of group of like severance nerd Reddit people who are trying to like deconstruct or read into it?

00:42:04Marc:Yeah.

00:42:06Marc:But you know the answer.

00:42:07Marc:Yeah.

00:42:07Marc:Right.

00:42:08Marc:And, you know, like, because I sadly, I know that most of the time when you're writing, you're flying by the seat of your pants.

00:42:15Marc:You don't have answers yet.

00:42:17Marc:And, you know, you're like still working on the episode that's two after the one you're shooting.

00:42:23Marc:Yep.

00:42:23Marc:And that no one's sitting there going like, no, the goats are.

00:42:28Yeah.

00:42:28Guest:But look, it's not that on this show because there is a lot that has to be, you know, thought out.

00:42:36Guest:All the way through.

00:42:37Guest:It has to be.

00:42:38Guest:But you're right in that the creative process is very messy and it should be.

00:42:43Guest:You know what I mean?

00:42:44Guest:The creative process has to allow space to figure stuff out.

00:42:47Guest:Yeah.

00:42:47Guest:But I've never experienced anything like this where I've worked on something where people are so curious.

00:42:52Guest:First of all, the people who are fans of the show, which I so appreciate, are watching every little detail.

00:42:57Guest:Yeah.

00:42:57Guest:For some reason, from the first season, they really saw.

00:43:00Marc:Well, it's so sparse.

00:43:02Marc:I mean, like everything is infused with meaning.

00:43:04Marc:Right.

00:43:04Marc:When, you know, it is so, that the way it's shot.

00:43:09Guest:Right.

00:43:09Guest:When very little happens, when something happens, it's very important.

00:43:13Marc:From everything, from, you know, the gifts that they get, you know, to the fruit platter, to whatever.

00:43:20Marc:Exactly, yeah.

00:43:21Marc:And then, like, when you bring goats in, it's over.

00:43:23Marc:Right.

00:43:23Marc:You know, people are going to be wondering about goats for, like,

00:43:26Guest:And the first season, Apple was concerned about the goats.

00:43:30Guest:In what way?

00:43:31Guest:They thought the goats, they were concerned that we were going to have goats in the show.

00:43:34Guest:Because they just didn't want to deal with animals?

00:43:36Guest:They were like, no, maybe the goats are too weird.

00:43:38Guest:Are people going to be able to, is that going to be too out there?

00:43:42Guest:What do you mean?

00:43:42Guest:That's the thing?

00:43:43Guest:Well, just that there would be baby goats in a room.

00:43:45Guest:Yeah, in a room.

00:43:47Guest:And we were like, no, this is like what the show is.

00:43:49Guest:And we feel like this.

00:43:50Guest:And interestingly, the baby goats did become a real focal point for the first season.

00:43:55Guest:But, yeah, like it's the audience for the show is paying such close attention.

00:44:00Guest:So, you know, that by the way, that's like what a great thing.

00:44:04Guest:When you make stuff, you hope that people are going to like.

00:44:06Guest:Pay attention.

00:44:07Guest:Like, how many times have you made something and you go, like, I hope the guy's not watching it, like, on his phone while he's watching the Knicks game and, you know, whatever.

00:44:14Guest:It's like, how can you get people— Or watching it at all.

00:44:16Guest:Or watching it at all.

00:44:17Marc:They're like, where's it on?

00:44:19Marc:For sure.

00:44:19Guest:I mean, that's the other thing.

00:44:20Guest:We've all done stuff, too, that, like, you make it and then it kind of just goes into the ether because there's so much stuff out there.

00:44:26Guest:So I'm very, like, aware of, like, to have an audience that's paying attention and watching is, like, that's—

00:44:32Marc:Well, the type of people that it gravitates or that it resonates with, like for me, I don't know if it's because I'm old or what, but even when we get the resolution at the end of the season, I'm the guy who's sort of like, I'm not sure I get it.

00:44:44Marc:Right.

00:44:47Right.

00:44:48Marc:And I think that might just be my age.

00:44:51Guest:For me, that's what my wife is for because she's the one who explains everything to me too.

00:44:55Guest:I've just become my parents.

00:44:57Guest:It happens.

00:44:58Guest:What are we going to do?

00:44:59Guest:Because I'm like that too.

00:45:01Guest:What's interesting to me also on the show is that people are focusing on different things.

00:45:05Guest:So people get really locked up in like what is the mystery of what they're doing or why they're doing it.

00:45:10Guest:But other people get really into the relationships and like Mark and Heli and –

00:45:14Guest:Helena and, you know, Gemma, they care about that too.

00:45:18Guest:So it's like constantly kind of like trying to like, you know, navigate, you know, all these different aspects of the show that you hope people are, you know, connecting with.

00:45:28Marc:Yeah, it's amazing.

00:45:29Marc:It's kind of astounding how much you got in there.

00:45:32Marc:And I think that when you can deal with –

00:45:36Marc:a kind of poetry that is sparse, that it must enable you to, when you decide on an element and you know it's going to pop because, you know, that's the whole show.

00:45:48Marc:It's not complicated in terms of how it's set.

00:45:52Marc:So if you do something that's a little cryptic, you know it's going to be loaded.

00:45:55Marc:Exactly.

00:45:56Marc:And it can imply anything.

00:45:58Marc:There's a poetry to it.

00:45:59Guest:Yeah, and that's the fun of it, too.

00:46:02Guest:And then you don't want to answer people's questions or give them too much feedback on what they're stipulating or postulating because you don't want to take away the possibility for them of what it might be for them.

00:46:15Guest:Because even if it might not be that for me, I've seen people write out theories that are like, oh, yeah, that actually could be something.

00:46:22Guest:Where did you find Trammell, though?

00:46:23Guest:I've never seen him before.

00:46:23Guest:He came in and auditioned.

00:46:25Guest:What an interesting guy.

00:46:26Guest:Yeah.

00:46:27Guest:And it was interesting to see his character develop over the course of two seasons, too.

00:46:32Guest:Because he really has a lot of layers to what's going on in his face, too, when you watch him work.

00:46:39Marc:Oh, and the dancing?

00:46:40Marc:How much of that stuff did you give?

00:46:42Guest:That was like, you know, I didn't know he was such a great dancer, but we had this idea to do this music dance experience.

00:46:48Guest:And I said, should we get a choreographer?

00:46:50Guest:He's like, yeah, we could get a choreographer, but I have some ideas.

00:46:52Guest:And then he got out and did it.

00:46:53Guest:He's like, oh, my God.

00:46:54Guest:Yeah.

00:46:55Guest:You're like the smoothest guy ever.

00:46:58Marc:But how did you sort of devise, like, what was your thinking around the, not so much the direction, but in terms of production design and all that stuff, what were you thinking when you decided on?

00:47:13Marc:Were you thinking like THX?

00:47:15Marc:Were you looking at sci-fi stuff?

00:47:16Marc:Were you like?

00:47:17Guest:A little bit, but it was, like, a lot of reference points with Jeremy Hindle, our production designer, and Jessica Lee Gagne, our cinematographer.

00:47:24Guest:Yeah.

00:47:24Guest:We would, like, just get a lot of photography and just look at, like, pictures by, like, guys like Lars Tunbjork.

00:47:31Marc:Yeah.

00:47:31Guest:You know?

00:47:32Guest:Yeah.

00:47:32Guest:And Elliot Erwitt even, like, stuff like 60s office photography.

00:47:36Guest:Oh, really?

00:47:36Guest:Things like that.

00:47:37Guest:Yeah.

00:47:37Guest:And then design elements from, like, you know, like Russia in the 60s and, like, just weird sort of brutalist stuff.

00:47:45Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:45Guest:And we put together a book, a lookbook, like a 200-page lookbook that's always growing that Jeremy was in charge of.

00:47:53Guest:And we just started to go, yeah, this image, this image, this image.

00:47:56Guest:So we knew we had to have this main set where a lot of the show was going to take place.

00:47:59Guest:And it was written as sort of an oversized room with four cubicles in the center and a slightly lower ceiling.

00:48:08Marc:But the effect of that, like, when you must have looked at the framing of that, you're like, oh, my God, this is it.

00:48:12Marc:Because it's so bizarre.

00:48:13Guest:But also we thought, okay, if this show is successful and runs for a few seasons, a lot of scenes are going to take place in this room.

00:48:20Guest:And that was a little bit daunting to me because I knew that, like, this set was sort of like the hero's set.

00:48:25Guest:Yeah.

00:48:25Guest:And I'd never made a series before.

00:48:27Guest:I did Escape at Dannemore.

00:48:28Guest:It was a limited series, but I'd never done, like, an open-ended series.

00:48:30Guest:Yeah.

00:48:30Marc:Yeah, but also, like, Dan Amore, it's a fucking prison.

00:48:33Guest:It's a prison, right.

00:48:34Guest:It's reality.

00:48:35Guest:You're just going for— Right.

00:48:36Guest:Like, you know, this, I mean— But weirdly, this place is kind of like a prison, too.

00:48:41Marc:Of course, but it must be daunting to realize the weight—

00:48:46Marc:that the actors have to carry, you know, in such a sparse thing, like these characters.

00:48:50Guest:A hundred percent.

00:48:52Guest:But even with the set, like the first thing I'm thinking is like, okay, the carpet, what color green is the carpet?

00:48:57Guest:Because whatever color green we choose, this is going to be the color of the carpet for like, you know, the next five seasons if the show goes down.

00:49:04Guest:So the responsibility of those questions and making those decisions was like, I did think about that a lot.

00:49:12Guest:And then it was like, okay, this set is basically this set.

00:49:14Guest:It's kind of cool, low ceiling.

00:49:16Guest:It has some really great angles.

00:49:19Guest:The ceiling is really interesting.

00:49:20Guest:But then at the end of the day, it's the actors.

00:49:23Guest:It's all about the actors in the show.

00:49:25Marc:It's crazy.

00:49:26Marc:It's the best thing I think that Adam Scott's ever done.

00:49:29Marc:He's great.

00:49:29Marc:Well, I mean, it's like there's so much depth and weirdness and, you know, shifting between things.

00:49:34Marc:And, you know, and he's a funny guy.

00:49:35Marc:Yeah.

00:49:36Marc:But like, you know, it really if he's funny in this, it's only because he's he's wry.

00:49:41Marc:Right.

00:49:41Marc:About you know what I mean?

00:49:43Marc:But the struggle of that character, he really did a fucking great job.

00:49:46Guest:Yeah.

00:49:46Guest:And he was to me was always the choice for it because of what he'd done in Parks and Rec and like understanding.

00:49:52Guest:And I worked with him in MIDI.

00:49:54Guest:Like I knew that he got that that sort of office humor rhythm.

00:49:59Guest:But then I also felt like he had a lot underneath that, too.

00:50:02Marc:It's so funny to think about that at the core of this is sort of an office comedy.

00:50:06Marc:Yeah.

00:50:07Marc:Because it does function that way in terms of their dynamic.

00:50:11Marc:Right.

00:50:11Marc:But then all the other layers of things, it's almost like it's not that it's nothing, but it's sort of it just kind of gives life to the coldness of the rest of it.

00:50:22Guest:Right.

00:50:22Guest:Well, it does become like it's like a workplace.

00:50:24Guest:Yeah.

00:50:25Guest:I mean, it's a workplace, but they're in like maybe in hell.

00:50:27Guest:We don't know.

00:50:28Yeah.

00:50:28Guest:That's not, by the way, what it is.

00:50:30Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:50:31Marc:Don't cause trouble with people who are going to be waiting for it.

00:50:34Marc:Are you doing another session?

00:50:36Marc:That would be like the most obvious.

00:50:37Marc:They're in hell.

00:50:38Yeah.

00:50:40Guest:We are.

00:50:40Guest:We're doing another season.

00:50:41Marc:But isn't it amazing you create this canvas for people because it's bordering on sci-fi that they can think anything?

00:50:48Guest:Yes.

00:50:48Guest:I've never been in that world before, and it's amazing.

00:50:50Guest:It's amazing.

00:50:51Guest:And it's really fun.

00:50:52Guest:It's fun to be – because then you're like, oh, wow.

00:50:55Guest:We actually – if we do this in a way that's deliberate, we can – it can be really entertaining and fun to give people the freedom to have those theories.

00:51:05Marc:Yeah.

00:51:06Marc:And Patricia Arquette, like, I mean, you work with her on Dannemora and it was like she is so intense and such a great actress that you like when you cast her, you just knew that that would be the anchor of this kind of.

00:51:19Guest:Yeah.

00:51:19Guest:You know, it was sort of like the role was to me like it kind of like the I felt like the more sort of like straight ahead casting would have been like someone like Tilda Swinton or something for that role.

00:51:29Guest:because she was kind of this very ice-cold boss.

00:51:34Guest:But I also, having just worked with Patricia on Dan Amora when we started working on Severance, and she had played sort of the opposite of that character.

00:51:43Guest:I was like, I could see Patricia as this kind of cold ice queen who has such a weird sense of humor, too, in real life.

00:51:50Guest:Have you ever had her on?

00:51:51Guest:Yeah, yeah, years ago.

00:51:52Guest:She's just so funny and goofy.

00:51:54Marc:But also she's got that sort of...

00:51:57Marc:You know, that kind of, like, emotional, just, you know, slight emotional instability somewhere in there.

00:52:04Marc:Sure.

00:52:05Guest:Yeah.

00:52:05Marc:So, like, the character who was brought up in the religion of the corporate cult.

00:52:10Marc:Right.

00:52:11Marc:Then it starts breaking away.

00:52:13Marc:You know, to be able to play that.

00:52:14Marc:Yes.

00:52:15Marc:Where she, like, you know, is betrayed by the corporate cult policy.

00:52:20Marc:I mean, like, she's the perfect person to do that.

00:52:22Guest:Yeah.

00:52:22Guest:Well, she invests so much into it.

00:52:24Guest:You know what I mean?

00:52:24Guest:Yeah.

00:52:25Guest:And she is so vulnerable.

00:52:26Guest:Yeah.

00:52:26Guest:And I don't know.

00:52:27Guest:I love her.

00:52:28Guest:I love working with her.

00:52:29Guest:She's the most incredible person.

00:52:31Guest:She really cares about people.

00:52:35Guest:And she's not precious in any way, and she's willing to take chances.

00:52:41Guest:Because honestly, the first season on the show, we were trying to figure out her character.

00:52:46Guest:I mean, she was trying so many different things.

00:52:48Guest:And I think in my head, I had an idea that was...

00:52:52Guest:my preconceived idea of what Miss Gobelle was.

00:52:54Guest:And she had a slightly different idea.

00:52:57Guest:And I kept on, like, kind of going back.

00:52:59Guest:Well, maybe it's this or that.

00:53:00Guest:And to her credit, she, like, let me kind of be a pain in the butt for a long time with her.

00:53:05Guest:I said, well, maybe try this or that, you know?

00:53:07Guest:And I don't think there were very few actors I would feel comfortable even having that.

00:53:12Guest:Like, I would not, like, with Christopher Walken, who I love and is the sweetest guy in the world, I maybe have said two words of direction to him ever.

00:53:19Guest:Sure.

00:53:20Guest:Because he's Chris Walken.

00:53:21Guest:And like I said, maybe like, hey, maybe this time a little slower.

00:53:24Guest:Yeah.

00:53:24Guest:Or like I didn't quite hear that last line.

00:53:26Guest:That's about it.

00:53:26Guest:That's it.

00:53:27Guest:Because I don't want to – and by the way, Chris Walken and Patricia Arquette are equally brilliant people.

00:53:32Guest:But I have a relationship with – and I know Chris because he worked with my dad back in the 80s.

00:53:37Guest:And he's the warmest – I go to his house.

00:53:39Guest:Yeah.

00:53:39Guest:I love him.

00:53:40Guest:Yeah.

00:53:41Guest:But I – when it comes to acting and directing him, I –

00:53:44Guest:Like, what am I going to say to Chris Walken?

00:53:47Marc:Well, some directors, like I've talked to people like they like it was kind of mind blowing to me when I talked to, I think, Walter Hill, because I was like my perception of what a director does.

00:53:56Marc:I'm like, how much do you kind of work with the actors?

00:53:59Marc:He goes, I don't.

00:54:01Marc:I hired them because they're right.

00:54:03Marc:You're going to do the job.

00:54:04Marc:That's what Ridley Scott says.

00:54:05Guest:Yeah.

00:54:06Guest:Yeah.

00:54:07Guest:It's like – and it's a very specific attitude that great – and I can understand that because sometimes I've worked with directors who like as an actor who will come in and start talking and you're like, well, you're getting in my head.

00:54:20Guest:What do you – you don't have to necessarily say anything to me if it's working, if it's working.

00:54:25Marc:Right, right, yeah.

00:54:26Guest:Like, you don't have to justify the job by coming in and doing, like, you have to this or that.

00:54:31Guest:And I think those directors who have a really healthy sense of themselves in terms of how they work know that, no, it's like the actors do their thing.

00:54:39Guest:It's about the casting.

00:54:40Marc:Yes, exactly.

00:54:41Marc:You've hired the guy to do a thing.

00:54:43Marc:Yes.

00:54:43Marc:But I mean, but my perception was always like, you know, you're going to work close with the director and really hammer this out.

00:54:48Marc:But in my experience of being on set, it's usually like, maybe not so, you know, you're coming in a little hot.

00:54:55Marc:Right.

00:54:56Marc:Can you turn that down a little bit?

00:54:59Guest:Yeah, no problem.

00:55:00Guest:It should be whatever is needed.

00:55:02Marc:Right.

00:55:03Guest:You know what I mean?

00:55:03Guest:To me, that's what the job of the director is.

00:55:05Guest:You're watching the scene, and you're looking at it, and you get the camera set up in hopefully the right place, and then you watch the rehearsal, and then...

00:55:13Guest:You react to what is working, what's not working.

00:55:16Guest:And if you think an actor is missing something or if you're not believing something, whatever it is.

00:55:21Guest:And then you have to figure out how to communicate to whoever it is you want to communicate that note.

00:55:26Guest:But sometimes not saying anything is a way of doing it, too, because maybe the next take they won't do that.

00:55:32Guest:Maybe me saying something is going to get too much in their head.

00:55:34Guest:Right, right.

00:55:34Guest:And this actor seems to want to have space.

00:55:36Guest:Right.

00:55:37Guest:Other actors seem to want to, you know, talk it through.

00:55:40Marc:But I also think, like, what you're saying with Patricia, it's not that you're just saying, like, let's try this or that.

00:55:45Marc:It's not like, you know, you're not getting it.

00:55:47Guest:I think with Patricia, because I'd had the experience with Dan Amore and we'd worked together, you know, 30 years ago or whatever on flirting with disaster, and I hadn't really seen her a lot since then.

00:55:56Guest:And who she is as a person—

00:55:58Guest:I feel like she's like a sister or something.

00:56:01Guest:Yeah, sure, sure.

00:56:01Guest:You know how some people you just have that comfortability with?

00:56:04Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:06Guest:By the way, I didn't give her a lot of direction when we were doing Dana Mora, too, because she came in the same way like Robert Downey on Tropic Thunder.

00:56:13Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:15Guest:This guy came in with his thing.

00:56:16Guest:I'm just watching going, oh, shit.

00:56:18Yeah.

00:56:20Guest:As an audience, I'm going, that's good.

00:56:22Guest:Okay.

00:56:23Guest:I like that.

00:56:25Guest:It's like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

00:56:28Guest:That's what your job is.

00:56:30Guest:And then to figure out how you can communicate what you want to communicate without making it worse, hopefully.

00:56:35Marc:But it's like you said, it's kind of like there is a theatricality to the thing.

00:56:40Marc:It's almost like a play.

00:56:41Marc:Yes.

00:56:42Marc:Everything operates as sort of this Beckett-like situation.

00:56:46Marc:Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:56:47Marc:And so you had a lot of, like, you knew that anything any actor was going to say was going to resonate.

00:56:53Marc:Right, for sure.

00:56:54Guest:And also, like, I love trusting that not having to... You talk about the pace in the show and stuff like that.

00:57:00Guest:It might be a reaction for me from having the years of a...

00:57:03Guest:of the test screenings and the pacing and sort of doing a screening of a comedy.

00:57:08Guest:You've been around a long time.

00:57:10Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:57:11Guest:Back in the day, we'd do the test screen in the focus group, and you'd sit in the back of the theater, and they'd be like, so what'd you think?

00:57:17Guest:Any Ben Stiller fans here?

00:57:20Guest:That's over, huh?

00:57:21Guest:You don't have to do that anymore.

00:57:23Guest:Well, on Dan Amore, that was the first thing I ever made that I didn't have to test it.

00:57:28Guest:The first thing I ever directed that I didn't have to test.

00:57:30Guest:And it was so freeing.

00:57:32Guest:And so I was like, wait a minute, I could do this whole scene and I'm just going to let it play out and that's it.

00:57:39Guest:I'm not going to see if anybody thinks it's too long or anything like that.

00:57:41Guest:And that's what we did.

00:57:42Guest:And then we'd send it to the network and they were like, yeah, that's good.

00:57:44Guest:Or they'd say, like, this might have been a little, like, maybe you could tighten this up.

00:57:47Guest:Yeah.

00:57:47Guest:That's a whole other thing.

00:57:49Marc:But it's so different that these projects you're doing, even like the jump from MIDI to Dannemora to all this stuff.

00:57:54Marc:So you just want to try shit.

00:57:56Guest:Yeah.

00:57:57Guest:I also want to make stuff that I really want to see.

00:58:00Guest:What drew you to Dannemora?

00:58:02Guest:I wanted to see it.

00:58:03Guest:I was like oh I loved it this is like this reminds me of like you know dog day after for some reason the tone like it feels like a 70s story even though it's you know whatever 2015 or whatever it is and why is it oh because they're in prison and then when I went to visit the prison I was like oh wait a minute this could be 1975 because there's no cell phones in here nobody's got any technology this place

00:58:24Guest:looks exactly the same as it did to communicate with a guy you got to do a secret note and put a thing and it's like oh yeah the storytelling because you know how much of storytelling has been screwed up by cell phones right everything everything right so detective stories anything it's like everything you just like google it or find it so when you're in prison all of a sudden you have you can do like a period piece without it being in the period oh that's great and then it becomes about people yeah and then right and then it's just about people who are like how do people react

00:58:49Marc:Unmediated with no technological mediation.

00:58:52Guest:Yeah.

00:58:52Guest:And then like barriers that they have to figure out how to get around, which is, you know, like human nature.

00:58:57Guest:It's just like people are going to be people.

00:58:58Guest:Guys are going to like girls.

00:59:00Guest:Guys are going to like guys.

00:59:01Guest:All of it.

00:59:02Guest:People are going to be attracted to each other, figure out how to connect.

00:59:04Guest:And then you have Benicio in the middle of it.

00:59:06Guest:Exactly.

00:59:07Guest:I mean, wow.

00:59:09Marc:That character was something, huh?

00:59:10Guest:Yeah.

00:59:11Guest:And that guy, Richard Matt, was a really interesting guy.

00:59:14Guest:He was a brilliant person because he was a great artist.

00:59:18Guest:He was really smart, understood the machinations of how to live in the prison society.

00:59:25Guest:And then when he got outside of it, it all kind of fell apart.

00:59:28Guest:He was much better within that structure.

00:59:31Guest:The real guy?

00:59:32Guest:Yeah, the real guy.

00:59:33Guest:Yeah, he died out in the wilderness because I don't think he could handle it.

00:59:37Marc:Working with that guy.

00:59:39Marc:Benicio?

00:59:40Marc:Yeah.

00:59:40Marc:Was that the first time you worked with him?

00:59:42Guest:Yeah.

00:59:43Guest:Did you know him before?

00:59:44Guest:I knew Benicio because we're like same age.

00:59:47Guest:Yeah, you've been around the game for a while.

00:59:48Guest:Over the years, yeah.

00:59:49Guest:And run into him.

00:59:50Guest:I knew Rick Yorn, who's his manager, for years.

00:59:55Guest:And it was really quite an experience working with Benicio.

01:00:00Guest:I bet.

01:00:00Guest:It was great.

01:00:02Guest:I never worked with an actor who, first of all, he had never done a limited series.

01:00:06Guest:It was the first time he'd ever done anything on television.

01:00:08Guest:And so when we met, his whole thing was like, the thing was not written all the way through when we met.

01:00:13Guest:And he's like, well, how can I play it if I don't know what the ending is?

01:00:17Guest:Yeah.

01:00:18Guest:And I, which was interesting because as a guy who'd done movies, he'd have a script and he'd read a script.

01:00:22Guest:And for his process as an actor, he has to know what the arc of the character is and where he's going.

01:00:27Guest:And I said, oh, that's okay.

01:00:28Guest:I get that.

01:00:29Guest:We know what the general ending is because it's a true story, but the scripts don't exist yet.

01:00:34Guest:And it was a series of meetings with him, a bunch of meetings where I'd come out here to meet with him and talk to him about it and tell him what we, the script, how it was developing, talk about episodes.

01:00:44Guest:This before he agreed to it?

01:00:45Guest:Before he agreed to it.

01:00:46Guest:And then you finally, you know, you got closure.

01:00:49Guest:Then we got, then he agreed.

01:00:50Guest:I think in the beginning he was always daunted by the fact that it was so much, which again, totally understandable as a movie, you know, two hour movie.

01:01:00Guest:This is going to be like a seven or eight hour thing.

01:01:03Guest:Yeah.

01:01:03Guest:That's a lot of work.

01:01:05Guest:And we just developed a sort of trust with each other talking about it where I said, look, I totally get it.

01:01:11Guest:This is the first time I've done something like this too.

01:01:13Guest:But we both knew that we'd been around, but we didn't really know each other.

01:01:16Guest:So it was like, do you want to jump in together on this?

01:01:19Guest:And...

01:01:20Guest:I remember we had this conversation.

01:01:22Guest:We said, you know what?

01:01:22Guest:We chip away at it.

01:01:23Guest:We just chip away at it scene by scene.

01:01:25Guest:Yeah.

01:01:26Guest:And I think that's where we connected, where it's just like, yeah, we're going to chip away at it scene by scene and try to make every scene as good as possible.

01:01:32Guest:And that's what I got working with him was that every scene he approached, he wanted to make as interesting and as layered and as good as he could.

01:01:43Marc:Well, every scene has an arc.

01:01:44Marc:Right.

01:01:45Marc:Yeah.

01:01:45Marc:Every scene has its own arc, right?

01:01:47Marc:So once you develop the character, you know, he's just playing this – like, I imagine you look at the scene and you can kind of see where that goes, even if it's in two minutes.

01:01:56Guest:Right, right, which is, you know, analyzing the scene, like really looking at it as opposed to just saying, like, I go here, I go there.

01:02:02Guest:You know, he was thinking about – and then also, like, literally thinking, like, what can I do here that's going to –

01:02:08Guest:somehow illuminate who this character is and show something.

01:02:12Marc:And you can't take his eyes, you can't take your eyes off.

01:02:14Marc:Right.

01:02:15Marc:The character was, it was crazy.

01:02:16Marc:Yeah.

01:02:17Guest:He's seductive and he's scary.

01:02:19Marc:But it's an interesting thing with those actors because I have this like other thing with Malkovich too.

01:02:24Marc:Yeah.

01:02:24Marc:It's like there's the movie and then there's the one they're in.

01:02:29Marc:Totally.

01:02:31Guest:100%.

01:02:32Marc:But it's great.

01:02:32Marc:It's worth it.

01:02:33Marc:You know, it's worth it.

01:02:35Marc:But it's definitely like, this guy's on another level.

01:02:39Guest:Yeah.

01:02:41Guest:And it's every scene is like, he's coming and going, what if I, you know, was like standing on my head at the beginning of this scene?

01:02:48Guest:Like, whoa.

01:02:49Guest:Yeah.

01:02:50Guest:Interesting.

01:02:50Guest:Yeah.

01:02:51Guest:Interesting.

01:02:51Guest:Why?

01:02:52Guest:Well, I don't know.

01:02:52Guest:Like, you know, he's trying to stay in shape.

01:02:55Guest:And you have to be like, yeah, yeah.

01:02:56Guest:Yeah.

01:02:56Guest:Try it.

01:02:57Guest:Well, sometimes.

01:02:57Guest:Yeah.

01:02:58Guest:Sometimes it would be like that.

01:02:59Guest:And sometimes it'd be like, I don't know about that.

01:03:00Guest:And then we'd have the discussion about it.

01:03:02Guest:Yeah.

01:03:02Guest:There was, you know, there was one choice he made where, you know, he says to her, like, don't.

01:03:06Guest:tell anybody and he like does this crazy voice when she finds out that they're gonna try to escape and he did this huge thing and it was really interesting and I was like wow that's a choice that I did not see coming and he's like yeah and I think I'm trying to scare her into not telling anybody laughing

01:03:27Guest:And I was like, all right, great.

01:03:30Guest:That was great.

01:03:30Guest:Should we try another?

01:03:31Guest:And you want to try, like, maybe one that's, like, a little smaller?

01:03:34Guest:He's like, no, no, I think I'm kind of married to that one.

01:03:38Guest:I'm like, okay.

01:03:41Guest:All right.

01:03:41Guest:And my director... He scared you.

01:03:42Guest:Yeah.

01:03:42Guest:Oh, for sure.

01:03:43Guest:Oh, definitely.

01:03:45Guest:I mean, like, he's, you know, he has a presence.

01:03:47Guest:And that tension was actually, like, a very real thing on set.

01:03:51Guest:But, like, you know what?

01:03:52Guest:That was good for me to learn as a director, too.

01:03:54Guest:Like, when did I go...

01:03:55Guest:Like, do I need to assert myself here as a director and, like, show that I'm the director?

01:04:00Guest:Like, how much is my ego as a director that I have to, you know, because you do get into that thing.

01:04:04Marc:There's always a risk in that, right?

01:04:05Marc:Because, like, you do that once and you risk the possibility of an entire cast going like, oh, fuck.

01:04:10Guest:Right.

01:04:11Guest:Or the relationship that we have.

01:04:12Guest:Yeah.

01:04:13Guest:Benicio and I like if you don't want to become 10 years, but also like you don't ever want to not say something.

01:04:18Guest:Sure.

01:04:18Guest:That you feel.

01:04:19Guest:Yeah.

01:04:19Guest:So, you know, like on that one in particular, I saw like he really wanted to do that.

01:04:24Guest:And it probably was, I think, ultimately like he didn't necessarily trust that if I if he gave me another choice.

01:04:30Guest:Yeah.

01:04:30Guest:That I might use the other choice in the edit.

01:04:32Marc:Right.

01:04:32Marc:Well, that's.

01:04:33Guest:Which is how you as an actor, sometimes you protect yourself.

01:04:36Guest:Yeah.

01:04:36Marc:If you don't give them a choice.

01:04:37Marc:If you're on top of it.

01:04:38Marc:Yeah.

01:04:38Guest:Yeah.

01:04:39Guest:Right.

01:04:39Guest:So I felt like.

01:04:40Guest:And the only thing I thought there was like, oh, maybe I wish he trusted more that, you know, but I also totally understood that because he had never worked with me before necessarily.

01:04:49Guest:And then when he saw the first and when he saw the cut of the first episode.

01:04:53Guest:Yeah.

01:04:54Guest:He was like, oh, man, I really that's that's it was the first time I feel like he was like, oh, I get it.

01:04:59Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:04:59Guest:Oh, really?

01:05:00Guest:Sure.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah.

01:05:01Guest:It's funny.

01:05:02Guest:Yeah.

01:05:02Marc:But how's he going to know until you see how it comes together?

01:05:05Marc:Right.

01:05:05Marc:Exactly.

01:05:05Marc:Like Owen doesn't watch anything he's ever been in.

01:05:08Marc:Ever.

01:05:08Marc:It's crazy.

01:05:09Marc:I know.

01:05:09Marc:It's so crazy.

01:05:10Marc:You know, and because like I remember like just after the premiere, like he showed up for the press and then him and Luke went and got something to eat.

01:05:20Marc:Right.

01:05:20Marc:And they come back and I saw him at the party and, you know, I asked him why.

01:05:25Marc:And he said, because like, you know, that little fight scene we did, it was like, I remember that being the greatest scene ever.

01:05:31Marc:Why would I want to fuck with that?

01:05:33Marc:Like, you know, why would I want to see what it's become?

01:05:35Guest:Right.

01:05:36Marc:But then when I went up to him after the premiere and I was at the party, I said, I think it really works, dude.

01:05:41Marc:I think you and I, it works.

01:05:42Marc:He's like, really?

01:05:47Marc:Of course.

01:05:49Marc:But, you know, he still needed that.

01:05:51Guest:Of course.

01:05:52Guest:I mean, it's a really interesting thing because I obviously know Owen forever.

01:05:55Guest:Yeah.

01:05:56Guest:And it's really hard to imagine, like, all the stuff that we did over the years that he's never seen.

01:06:01Guest:So funny, too, right?

01:06:03Guest:Yeah.

01:06:04Marc:Because he's done some, like, really amazing, funny stuff.

01:06:07Marc:No, it was great to work with him.

01:06:09Marc:He's an interesting guy, and he's just one of those guys where you're like, all right, well, I guess –

01:06:13Marc:Yeah, well, you know, you're a mysterious guy.

01:06:16Guest:Did you ever have him on the podcast?

01:06:18Guest:No, I don't think he'd do it.

01:06:19Guest:Really?

01:06:20Guest:No, I mean, like, I don't— So interesting.

01:06:21Guest:I was thinking about that when I was coming over, like, did you have him on?

01:06:24Guest:Because he is an interesting guy.

01:06:26Guest:Totally.

01:06:26Guest:And he's got so much going on, and he is a mystery, too.

01:06:29Guest:And I've known him for, whatever, 30 years.

01:06:30Marc:Well, he's got very poetic sensibilities, very smart, and he, like, really takes things in and engages with it.

01:06:36Marc:But you do get the sense it's sort of like, well, you know, I'm not going to poke around in there.

01:06:41Marc:Right, right.

01:06:41Marc:Yeah.

01:06:42Marc:You're good.

01:06:43Guest:Yeah.

01:06:43Guest:I'm glad you're good.

01:06:44Guest:And that's good.

01:06:44Guest:And he loves, you know, he loves to read.

01:06:48Guest:I think he loves movies.

01:06:50Guest:Yeah.

01:06:50Guest:He loves biographies.

01:06:51Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:06:52Marc:He locks into movies.

01:06:53Marc:Like, you know, he's really good with that.

01:06:54Marc:Like, you know, certain lines and stuff.

01:06:56Marc:We got a lot of laughs.

01:06:57Guest:Yeah.

01:06:58Marc:Doing just talking about movies.

01:06:59Marc:Yeah.

01:06:59Guest:Yeah.

01:07:00Guest:Yeah, no, he's great.

01:07:01Guest:That's my memory of working with Owen, and we're about to work together again because we're going to do another Meet the Parents, and it's been a while since I worked with him, is the laughs with him on set, hanging out.

01:07:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:07:12Guest:Like we did in the last Little Fockers, I think we had a scene with Harvey Keitel.

01:07:18Marc:Yeah.

01:07:19Guest:And it was just a funny energy with me and Owen and Harvey.

01:07:22Guest:And again, Harvey, I know from when I was a kid because he worked with my dad and people like that.

01:07:29Guest:But Harvey, Keitel, and De Niro, these guys are like, you know, these screen legend kind of guys.

01:07:34Guest:And like, I think Owen and I were feeling very insecure doing a scene with Harvey because Harvey was like in Mean Streets or something.

01:07:41Guest:And he kind of was like looking at us like we were two wise guys or something.

01:07:45Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:46Guest:Like, what do you two guys got going on here?

01:07:50Guest:And moments like that with Owen over the years that just really.

01:07:53Guest:And he's good.

01:07:53Guest:He likes to laugh.

01:07:54Guest:Yeah, he loves to laugh.

01:07:55Guest:Yeah, he'll, like, call me up and, like, he also has the craziest memory.

01:07:59Guest:You know that, too, right?

01:08:00Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:00Guest:He'll remember stuff that I told him about my childhood, like, 25 years ago, that he'll, like, go, hey, and he'll just literally call me up and go, yeah, I was just thinking about that time when, you know, you said your dad picked you up from camp when you were homesick.

01:08:12Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:08:12Guest:And then he told him to leave when you met that girl.

01:08:14Guest:Yeah.

01:08:15Guest:He just and he was just making me laugh.

01:08:17Marc:Well, I think that like I think that's what Wilson impression, by the way.

01:08:20Marc:Yeah.

01:08:20Marc:Some people can really do him.

01:08:21Marc:Spade can do him.

01:08:23Marc:Oh, can he?

01:08:23Marc:Yeah.

01:08:24Marc:But but there's something I think like he when when something has meaning to him, when he sees it or reads it or something.

01:08:31Marc:Yeah.

01:08:32Marc:It stays in there.

01:08:32Marc:Yes.

01:08:33Marc:And it becomes a point of reference, an emotional point of reference.

01:08:36Marc:And I think that's sort of why he's also kind of a great natural actor.

01:08:40Guest:Yeah.

01:08:40Marc:Is that like he does find meaning.

01:08:42Marc:Yes.

01:08:43Marc:Because it's all very immediate.

01:08:44Guest:It's like a poetry to it.

01:08:45Guest:And his performance in Bottle Rocket, for me, is like one of the most special comedic performances.

01:08:52Marc:And then when I watch him on the show, because like, you know, when you're acting across from somebody, you don't know what they're doing, really.

01:08:57Marc:Because you're just in, you know, you don't know how it's going to read.

01:09:00Marc:Right.

01:09:00Marc:Because you're just in the scene.

01:09:01Marc:Right.

01:09:02Marc:And then he's just got all this like crazy natural timing.

01:09:05Marc:And it's like, you know, you're watching like, I didn't even notice that he was doing all that.

01:09:10Marc:And I'm sitting here like, you know.

01:09:12Marc:Yeah, of course.

01:09:15Marc:It's kind of crazy.

01:09:16Marc:All right, so let's just lay out the entire next season of Severance.

01:09:18Marc:Okay.

01:09:21Marc:Well, what do you care?

01:09:22Marc:I watch it.

01:09:24Guest:I watch it.

01:09:25Guest:I'm in.

01:09:25Guest:A lot.

01:09:25Guest:It's going to be very slow.

01:09:27Guest:All goats.

01:09:27Guest:Not as much going to happen.

01:09:29Guest:And then all of a sudden something will happen.

01:09:30Marc:I got a lot of laughs and I was always interested.

01:09:33Marc:The only, and I didn't mean to diminish it in any way.

01:09:35Guest:No, no, I find it refreshing to talk to someone who wants to talk about what their feeling is for real about it.

01:09:42Marc:It's a narrative impatience.

01:09:44Marc:It's not anything else.

01:09:45Guest:And by the way, that's the constant for me when we're making it is my concern is people like you are, you know, going, come on.

01:09:55Guest:But I do go back to Dan Moore for me.

01:09:58Guest:Like just I feel like you establish from the beginning.

01:10:01Guest:You say this is what the pace is going to be.

01:10:04Guest:And then we can mess around with it within it.

01:10:06Guest:And you just have to trust that.

01:10:07Guest:And hopefully that enough people will be able to.

01:10:09Marc:Well, you know, it builds up and it definitely delivers.

01:10:12Marc:Yeah.

01:10:12Marc:But I can't even watch.

01:10:14Marc:Like, for me, the enjoyment of suspense is very limited.

01:10:19Marc:You know what I mean?

01:10:20Marc:Like, I don't get a kick out of like, what's going to happen?

01:10:23Marc:You know, like I did.

01:10:24Marc:There's nowhere in my life.

01:10:26Marc:That's a fucking enjoyable experience.

01:10:28Yeah.

01:10:29Marc:You don't need that in your life.

01:10:32Marc:No.

01:10:32Marc:I have it a half hour before you come over.

01:10:36Guest:What the fuck am I going to talk about for an hour and a half?

01:10:39Marc:But you know what I mean?

01:10:41Marc:My life is so consumed with dread and panic, it's not something I'm looking for from entertainment.

01:10:46Guest:I understand.

01:10:46Guest:I totally get that.

01:10:48Guest:I guess I can put my dread and panic of my life into my work.

01:10:52Guest:You know what I mean?

01:10:53Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:53Guest:Sort of like, go, okay, I'm just going to experience it.

01:10:56Marc:Well, yeah, but it must be like a Zen exercise almost.

01:10:59Guest:Yeah.

01:11:00Guest:I mean, I don't know.

01:11:01Guest:It's interesting because like having edited all these episodes, it becomes like, you know, like it has its own language.

01:11:08Guest:That's right.

01:11:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:09Guest:And then you, but I do, I mean, there's the challenges of like, how do we build this thing to a head?

01:11:14Marc:So how much do you know?

01:11:16Marc:Because this is like the one thing I know from doing the type of TV I've done and then like seeing like what seems like fully formed visions.

01:11:25Marc:Yeah.

01:11:27Marc:But most of the time you're still writing when you're doing the show.

01:11:30Marc:Like this idea that like it's a rare person that's got the whole thing mapped out.

01:11:34Marc:Yeah.

01:11:35Guest:Like I said, I've never had an experience like this where people care so much also about the process or are very curious.

01:11:42Guest:How much do you know?

01:11:43Guest:Do you know the ending?

01:11:46Guest:Because there's this institutional memory of we've been burned before by shows that are these mysteries that are leading to something and then we feel like they didn't figure it out.

01:11:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:55Guest:And I really we have felt that a lot with this show where people like go, well, I don't I hope it better have a good ending.

01:12:02Guest:Otherwise, the whole thing will not have been.

01:12:05Marc:But also, but the ending in a show like this has to have a certain element of vagueness in order to propel the next unfolding.

01:12:14Guest:Right.

01:12:15Guest:Like what did you think of the ending of The Sopranos?

01:12:17Marc:I was fine.

01:12:18Marc:I'd been through enough.

01:12:19Marc:Right.

01:12:19Guest:I mean, what do you want?

01:12:21Guest:But like the ending where it cuts to black and we don't know what happened.

01:12:24Guest:Yeah, I know.

01:12:24Marc:But like with a show like that, I mean, it's like you've seen these guys do everything.

01:12:28Marc:They've killed everybody in every different way.

01:12:30Marc:I mean, how are you going to beat whatever's happened?

01:12:33Guest:That's what I think, too.

01:12:34Guest:I like that ending.

01:12:35Marc:Me, too.

01:12:36Guest:I have no problem.

01:12:37Guest:I'm still thinking about it 10 years.

01:12:38Guest:You know what I mean?

01:12:39Guest:Yeah.

01:12:40Guest:I don't know.

01:12:40Guest:It hit me on some level.

01:12:41Guest:Yeah.

01:12:41Guest:So you have to be willing to make a choice sometimes that is going to leave some people feeling frustrated.

01:12:48Marc:But actually, with that one, it was ultimately – it followed the –

01:12:53Marc:The core of the show was humanized.

01:12:56Guest:Yes.

01:12:57Guest:Yes.

01:12:57Guest:By the way, I think that's what every show is about.

01:12:59Guest:Yeah.

01:12:59Guest:Ultimately.

01:13:00Guest:Yeah.

01:13:00Guest:People get connected to the characters.

01:13:02Marc:Yeah.

01:13:02Marc:And that, like, you know, well, they just had dinner.

01:13:05Marc:Yeah.

01:13:05Marc:Okay.

01:13:05Marc:So the guy walking towards him didn't shoot him.

01:13:07Marc:Right.

01:13:08Marc:Well, who's that on?

01:13:08Marc:That's on you.

01:13:09Marc:You know, maybe you should.

01:13:11Guest:Right.

01:13:11Guest:Or maybe he shoots him 10 seconds later.

01:13:13Guest:Yeah.

01:13:14Guest:Yeah.

01:13:14Guest:But, I mean.

01:13:16Guest:Let's restart the Sopranos.

01:13:18Guest:Ben Stiller starts the Sopranos controversy again.

01:13:21Guest:Yeah.

01:13:22Marc:I was fine with it.

01:13:23Marc:I talked to Chase about it.

01:13:25Guest:There's something about it to me that was very intriguing.

01:13:28Guest:It hit me.

01:13:29Marc:But if anyone is disappointed with an ending of a series that went on that long and went through that much, they can go fuck themselves.

01:13:34Marc:Right.

01:13:35Guest:Exactly.

01:13:35Guest:Or is going to retroactively judge the show based on how they landed the plane.

01:13:40Guest:What do you want?

01:13:41Guest:Yes.

01:13:41Guest:It's like whatever.

01:13:42Guest:But I understand.

01:13:43Guest:Look, this is all spoken from people who are in the stress of making these things.

01:13:47Guest:Yeah.

01:13:48Guest:Because ultimately you want to you want the audience to be happy.

01:13:51Guest:Right.

01:13:51Guest:You want.

01:13:51Guest:But you can only make your like when you're making a show or you're writing a show or editing or directing.

01:13:57Guest:All you can do is try to satisfy for you what you're what you think.

01:14:01Guest:But it feels right.

01:14:02Marc:But I think that the poetry of what this show is, is that there is sort of this kind of, I don't know if the word cryptic, but, you know, there is a mystery there that doesn't really have a clean resolution.

01:14:15Marc:Right.

01:14:15Guest:Right.

01:14:15Guest:But you want to feel at the end of the whole thing.

01:14:18Marc:Yeah, that something has happened.

01:14:19Guest:Right.

01:14:20Guest:Exactly.

01:14:20Guest:That this was somehow, you know.

01:14:22Guest:That it doesn't in some way feel like, oh, they copped out or something like that.

01:14:26Guest:And that comes from understanding where you're going.

01:14:29Guest:But I will say, I think I said earlier, it's a messy process.

01:14:34Guest:Creativity is messy.

01:14:35Guest:So yeah, it has to be.

01:14:36Guest:And you have to allow room for discovery within what you're doing.

01:14:39Marc:But the benefit of this is that like with a lot of shows, procedurals or whatever, not a show like this, is that when you have a like, you know, when you're trying to figure out the puzzle.

01:14:49Marc:Yeah.

01:14:49Marc:I mean, the big crime of those shows is all of a sudden something in the last episode or the last two episodes is inserted into this puzzle you've been trying to figure out for the entire season.

01:14:58Marc:You're like, what the fuck?

01:15:00Marc:Right.

01:15:00Marc:There was no way to figure this out.

01:15:01Guest:Right.

01:15:02Guest:Ever.

01:15:02Guest:Right.

01:15:03Guest:You didn't.

01:15:03Guest:Right.

01:15:03Guest:You sort of have all the information.

01:15:05Guest:You guys didn't do that.

01:15:06Guest:No, no, no.

01:15:07Guest:And it's very important, I think, that you honor that.

01:15:09Guest:You know what I mean?

01:15:10Guest:You don't, like, go back and go, well, we figured out this thing.

01:15:12Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:14Guest:But I will always say you have to have room to discover stuff within these shows.

01:15:19Guest:Sure.

01:15:19Marc:Well, right.

01:15:19Marc:So then that's the creative process.

01:15:20Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:15:21Guest:And that's the excitement of it.

01:15:22Guest:Yeah, that's the fun of it.

01:15:23Marc:Yeah.

01:15:23Marc:But at the end, did you, like, picture at the end of both seasons that this could be the end and it has to be enough?

01:15:30Marc:No.

01:15:31Marc:You were always like, we're going to keep going.

01:15:32Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:32Marc:And if they fuck us, it's on them.

01:15:34Guest:Yeah, for sure.

01:15:34Guest:You can't not do that.

01:15:37Guest:Even in the first season, it's like, okay, we have to have another season of this show.

01:15:44Guest:And we felt like even if Apple is not going to pick it up, then the people are going to be upset.

01:15:49Guest:So let's leave a cliffhanger so they hopefully have to pick it up.

01:15:52Marc:Yeah, it's good that you're in that situation because they'll just blame Apple.

01:15:55Guest:Yeah.

01:15:56Guest:Right, exactly, yeah.

01:15:57Guest:We wanted to make sure that they had that person.

01:15:59Marc:But do you have an arc laid out for the next one?

01:16:01Guest:Yes, yeah.

01:16:02Guest:And that's also like what...

01:16:04Guest:That's why I'm out here right now.

01:16:06Guest:We're writing and sort of really figuring out exactly.

01:16:13Guest:It's like the cadence of the show, how often it comes on, the air, is three years between two seasons, which is too long.

01:16:20Marc:Too long.

01:16:21Guest:So we're figuring out how to do it so that it doesn't happen again for the life of the show.

01:16:27Marc:So are you going to go back up to Canada?

01:16:29Guest:We do it all in New York.

01:16:31Guest:It's all New York.

01:16:33Marc:This season or always?

01:16:34Marc:Always.

01:16:35Marc:Didn't you shoot somewhere up in Newfoundland?

01:16:36Guest:We shot up in Newfoundland for one episode.

01:16:38Guest:Oh, one episode.

01:16:38Guest:Yeah, this is an episode where Patricia's character goes back to her.

01:16:41Guest:The Jerry episode.

01:16:42Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:43Guest:The Jerry.

01:16:44Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:16:44Marc:Yeah.

01:16:45Marc:Oh, it's all in New York.

01:16:46Guest:Yeah.

01:16:47Guest:Well, that's easy.

01:16:47Guest:It's like mostly in the Bronx.

01:16:48Guest:Well, we had this stage in the Bronx for the first two seasons.

01:16:51Guest:So I got very familiar.

01:16:52Guest:Five years.

01:16:53Guest:I've been working on five years.

01:16:54Marc:Yeah.

01:16:54Marc:That's crazy, man.

01:16:55Guest:Yeah, it's so weird.

01:16:56Guest:19 episodes, five years.

01:16:57Guest:You're so lucky that it's satisfying.

01:16:59Yeah.

01:16:59Guest:Well, it kind of pulled me in.

01:17:01Guest:And then the first season we had COVID.

01:17:04Guest:So we shot in the height of COVID, which was crazy.

01:17:07Guest:And then the second season we had the writer's strike.

01:17:10Guest:So that stopped us in the middle.

01:17:12Guest:And I kept editing during the writer's strike because I was a non-writing executive producer.

01:17:16Guest:And so I've been working on the show straight through.

01:17:19Marc:And that's, oh my God.

01:17:20Marc:Yeah.

01:17:21Marc:Like I, that's the difference between like whatever talent I have or may have for this kind of thing.

01:17:26Marc:The idea that like, okay, we're going to do this movie could take seven years.

01:17:30Marc:Right.

01:17:31Guest:Oh my God.

01:17:32Guest:I don't know.

01:17:32Guest:I'm like, I'm the most impatient person.

01:17:34Guest:And I think this process has taught me like to be somewhere where you're shooting a show and you're like, okay, we're on the set.

01:17:40Guest:We're shooting season two.

01:17:41Guest:We didn't know it was going to be three years.

01:17:43Guest:Sure.

01:17:43Guest:But there was a good chance it was going to be at least two years.

01:17:46Guest:I was like, we're shooting a scene now.

01:17:48Guest:guys that will not be seen for two years oh my god that's crazy and by the way you finish editing the scene because you can edit it like two weeks later sure and it just sits there it's like okay that's good but you know we gotta do the other nine episodes and because of the way streaming works

01:18:05Guest:With these, you know, with Apple and these streamers, you have to deliver.

01:18:10Guest:You deliver everything.

01:18:11Guest:Yeah.

01:18:12Guest:So, you know, if it was a show that was a sitcom or whatever, you'd be making the show and six weeks later it's on the air.

01:18:17Marc:Yeah.

01:18:17Guest:You know, and you're making the next one.

01:18:18Guest:This one, it's like even if you finish the first, you know, three episodes, it doesn't matter.

01:18:24Guest:Those three episodes are not going to be delivered or they're not going to be in any way, you know, sent out to the world for a long, long time.

01:18:31Guest:Yeah.

01:18:31Marc:And so do you have time to do anything else?

01:18:34Yeah.

01:18:34Marc:Are you acting?

01:18:35Guest:Are you going to do— I act—so during the strike, I acted in this little movie, this little Hulu movie called Nutcrackers that David Gordon Green directed.

01:18:42Guest:Yeah.

01:18:43Guest:That's the only thing I've acted in.

01:18:44Guest:Do you miss that?

01:18:46Guest:And I kind of miss it, but—and I'm excited to do the Meet the Parents one with Owen.

01:18:51Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:18:52Guest:because it's fun, because I haven't done that for a long time.

01:18:54Guest:Funny stuff.

01:18:55Guest:And it's also a little bit challenging in a way, because I feel like... You've grown?

01:18:59Guest:Well, no, just because I haven't done it.

01:19:01Guest:Like, I feel like a little bit nervous.

01:19:04Marc:Yeah, sure.

01:19:05Marc:It comes back, right?

01:19:05Guest:Yeah, it does come back.

01:19:07Guest:Who's directing that?

01:19:08Guest:John Hamburg.

01:19:09Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:19:10Marc:Yeah.

01:19:11Marc:He did some of the stick episodes.

01:19:13Guest:Yeah.

01:19:13Guest:And he, you know, he did.

01:19:14Guest:Great guy.

01:19:14Guest:We worked together and he's great, great comedy director.

01:19:18Guest:Yeah, he is.

01:19:18Guest:Yeah.

01:19:19Guest:But it's, yeah, it's interesting.

01:19:20Guest:I love directing.

01:19:21Guest:I'm really happy not having to worry about putting my face.

01:19:25Guest:Or sitting in a trailer.

01:19:26Guest:Or like you talk about looking in the mirror.

01:19:28Guest:It's like, you know, oh my God.

01:19:29Guest:Yeah.

01:19:30Guest:Yeah.

01:19:31Guest:So, yeah, we're sitting in a trailer.

01:19:33Guest:I was talking to Rogan about that, too, like how it can be sometimes kind of boring.

01:19:36Marc:Dude, that's the fucking worst part of it.

01:19:39Guest:Yeah.

01:19:40Guest:And what do you do when you're working?

01:19:41Guest:Like, do you write?

01:19:42Guest:I can't do that.

01:19:44Marc:No, I look at food.

01:19:46Marc:Circle crafty every hour or so.

01:19:49Marc:And then you sit in your trailer and eventually you get to the point, you're like, what could they be doing?

01:19:54Marc:Right.

01:19:54Marc:What are they doing?

01:19:55Marc:Right.

01:19:57Marc:So that's my experience.

01:19:58Marc:Yeah.

01:19:59Marc:But the last one on stick, I was lucky because this is like me in acting all the time where I'm not sure I like it because the waiting doesn't justify.

01:20:08Marc:I need the acting part to justify the waiting.

01:20:12Marc:Right.

01:20:13Marc:But somehow I figured out how to hook the Samsung TV in the trailer up to my phone, and I could get the Criterion channel and my Netflix and everything.

01:20:20Marc:So I'm like, fuck, I'll watch The Godfather again.

01:20:23Marc:I'm going to watch Once Upon a Time in Hollywood again, Tropic Thunder.

01:20:26Guest:And how does that work with your acting process?

01:20:29Guest:And I'm not saying that facetiously, but seriously, because I find that kind of like, okay, I'm watching The Godfather, I get into it, and then it's like, hey.

01:20:36Guest:Five minutes.

01:20:37Guest:Five minutes, right.

01:20:38Guest:It's like, oh, shit.

01:20:39Guest:What am I?

01:20:40Guest:Wait a minute.

01:20:41Guest:My mother just died.

01:20:42Guest:Okay.

01:20:45Marc:Well, that's true.

01:20:46Marc:Maybe I'm not as committed as I do.

01:20:48Guest:No, I don't know.

01:20:49Guest:I find it challenging, too.

01:20:50Guest:Like, I don't know how to, like... Well, I think, like, for a day's scene...

01:20:55Marc:You know, you look at it like out here.

01:20:57Marc:Here's what you got to do.

01:20:58Marc:Right.

01:20:59Marc:So then you kind of lay out your choices.

01:21:00Marc:You get the emotional zone.

01:21:02Marc:I'm not you.

01:21:02Marc:I'm not.

01:21:03Marc:There's a heaviness to this character that I can live in and still watch The Godfather.

01:21:07Marc:Right.

01:21:08Marc:Right.

01:21:08Marc:You know, but but there were like when I shot a I was the lead in this indie movie that Rob Burnett did.

01:21:14Marc:And that was the biggest thing I've ever done.

01:21:16Marc:But like when you're that.

01:21:17Marc:But you're in every scene, right?

01:21:18Guest:Yeah.

01:21:18Guest:So you're never watching anything.

01:21:20Guest:Which is much, in a way, it's much easier to do it that way.

01:21:24Guest:It's better.

01:21:24Guest:Yeah, it's better.

01:21:25Guest:It's the same thing when you're starting out or a day on a movie or something like that.

01:21:30Guest:And then all of a sudden you've got to come in and do your thing.

01:21:32Guest:And everybody's super relaxed and they've been doing it.

01:21:34Guest:And all of a sudden you're in front of a camera.

01:21:36Guest:It's not a comfortable situation.

01:21:37Marc:Well, that's what happened on fucking...

01:21:40Marc:That was the funniest thing.

01:21:41Marc:Todd Phillips let me be in the first Joker.

01:21:43Marc:Right.

01:21:44Marc:I was De Niro.

01:21:45Marc:I was the producer on the TV show that De Niro was.

01:21:48Marc:And, like, I'm just doing these few lines.

01:21:52Marc:And, you know, this is a whole movie.

01:21:53Marc:But all along, I'm, like, ready.

01:21:55Marc:Yeah.

01:21:55Marc:And it was that moment where we do a walk and talk that didn't even make the movie.

01:21:59Marc:And I meet De Niro, and that's a big deal.

01:22:01Marc:I don't know fucking.

01:22:02Marc:I never met him before and trying to connect.

01:22:04Marc:And we did, which is not easy.

01:22:07Marc:Not easy.

01:22:08No.

01:22:09Guest:I love him.

01:22:09Guest:He's the best.

01:22:10Guest:But, you know, it's Robert De Niro.

01:22:11Marc:It's kind of amazing when you watch actors, like I said with Owen, it's like I'm watching him do these takes, you know, for this for the show.

01:22:17Marc:He's the host of that show.

01:22:19Marc:Yeah.

01:22:19Marc:And I'm just watching him go over and over.

01:22:21Marc:He doesn't have all these lines.

01:22:22Marc:I'm like, oh, boy, this is going to be a problem.

01:22:24Marc:And then you watch the thing.

01:22:25Marc:You're like, he knew exactly what he was doing.

01:22:28Guest:Like there was never.

01:22:29Guest:Oh, my God.

01:22:30Guest:I've seen that.

01:22:31Guest:I've seen that before, too.

01:22:32Guest:It's crazy.

01:22:33Guest:When you see like a brilliant actor, their process sometimes.

01:22:37Guest:You're like, oh.

01:22:38Guest:Yeah.

01:22:38Guest:And you're like, oh, wow.

01:22:39Guest:He really is.

01:22:40Guest:Wait.

01:22:41Guest:I don't know.

01:22:41Guest:I've seen that where it's like this take.

01:22:43Guest:I don't know.

01:22:43Guest:That take.

01:22:44Guest:And then all of a sudden it's like the next take and the take locks in.

01:22:48Guest:I've seen that with Tom Cruise.

01:22:49Guest:Yeah.

01:22:50Guest:Yeah.

01:22:50Guest:And you're like, oh, shit.

01:22:53Guest:Yeah.

01:22:53Guest:Because that person – because he understands that he has to get to somewhere and then he knows he only needs one take.

01:22:59Guest:And then when he finds that take – It's the best.

01:23:01Guest:It's insane.

01:23:02Guest:Yeah.

01:23:02Guest:But they're not worried about – they're not worried about how they get there because they know the process.

01:23:07Guest:That's what a film actor knows.

01:23:09Guest:Their process, yeah.

01:23:09Guest:They know that –

01:23:10Guest:That's what I honestly what I love about movies as opposed to doing like the Oscars.

01:23:14Guest:Yeah.

01:23:14Guest:You can do it 10 times.

01:23:16Guest:Sure.

01:23:16Guest:Get it right.

01:23:17Guest:The way you.

01:23:17Guest:Yeah.

01:23:18Marc:Right.

01:23:18Marc:But there was my scene, though, like the like we I talked to, you know, Todd and I meet De Niro and then it's just sort of like, all right, let's do one.

01:23:26Marc:And I'm like, OK.

01:23:28Marc:So it's this walk and talk.

01:23:29Marc:And I'm like, you know, I'm like going at it.

01:23:31Marc:And then he's cut, and I go back to my chair, and De Niro's across the way at his chair.

01:23:37Marc:And I just see De Niro get up and walk over to Todd, and then walk back to his seat, and then Todd comes up.

01:23:47Marc:He walks up to me, and he goes, you're coming in a little hot.

01:23:51Marc:Remember, like, De Niro's your boss.

01:23:54Marc:I'm like, yeah, okay, yeah, I got it, I got it.

01:23:56Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, good, good, good.

01:23:59Marc:But because I know I'm just this two-line guy, and De Niro's not going to remember me.

01:24:04Marc:He's worked with a million two-line guys.

01:24:07Marc:But then all of a sudden you're going, God, I already fucked it up.

01:24:10Marc:Right, of course.

01:24:11Marc:But then you just kind of pull it together.

01:24:13Guest:Yeah, I don't know.

01:24:15Guest:I don't know how much I enjoy that aspect of it as opposed to coming to a set as a director.

01:24:20Guest:You never have to get in front of the camera.

01:24:22Guest:It's a different part of your brain in a way.

01:24:25Guest:The thing I do feel like you have to do is you have to somehow try to empathize with the actors.

01:24:32Guest:I think that's important.

01:24:33Marc:I kind of learned that with Lynn, the late Lynn Shelton.

01:24:37Marc:She was all about that.

01:24:39Guest:Really?

01:24:40Marc:Yeah.

01:24:40Marc:And some people just have that weird empathy thing.

01:24:44Marc:But if you're a self-absorbed, anxious fucking mess all the time, it's something you have to work on.

01:24:50Guest:Yes.

01:24:51Guest:But it's something I never even thought.

01:24:53Guest:It's funny that she did that because that is, I think, something that nobody tells you to do.

01:24:59Guest:Right.

01:25:00Guest:I thought about it when I was doing Dana Moore.

01:25:02Guest:Like, okay, here I am.

01:25:04Guest:I'm an actor.

01:25:05Guest:I'm looking at these guys who are these amazing actors.

01:25:08Guest:how can I connect with them somehow in the scene?

01:25:11Guest:They don't need me to connect them, but how do I connect so that I feel like I'm the most connected to the scene to figure out how it should be?

01:25:19Guest:And I realized, like, for me, it's like, oh, maybe I'm just going to try to empathize with the situation that they're in.

01:25:25Guest:Okay, yeah.

01:25:26Guest:I don't know if that makes sense.

01:25:27Guest:Did it work?

01:25:27Guest:Well, it worked for me in that it just made me feel a little bit more connected to the choices that I was making.

01:25:33Guest:And you knew as an actor the situation they were in.

01:25:36Guest:Yeah, and also empathize with the fact that I didn't have to be them in that situation.

01:25:40Guest:Does that make sense?

01:25:41Guest:Because I had so much more of an appreciation for how hard it is.

01:25:46Guest:Yeah, you didn't go cut and go like, hey guys, I'm so glad I'm not doing what you're doing.

01:25:51Guest:But I felt like somehow, like psychically, if I could sort of put myself in there with them, for me, I would be more connected to the movie.

01:25:58Marc:That's great.

01:25:59Marc:Yeah.

01:25:59Marc:I mean, that's like as a director, you know.

01:26:01Guest:But that's interesting that she just instinctually knew that because she was – was she an actress?

01:26:05Guest:Yeah, yeah, she was.

01:26:06Guest:So she had that – that's the thing, that understanding as an actor to empathize.

01:26:10Marc:Yeah, and also I think it's like something I should have realized that I didn't until I talked to Pacino, which was fortuitous because I talked to him just as I was starting that movie.

01:26:19Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:26:19Marc:That, you know, artists, the job of an actor is the job of an actor.

01:26:26Marc:But the art of an actor like, you know, Pacino, I didn't know him.

01:26:30Marc:And, you know, you make assumptions about people from seeing their work your whole life.

01:26:33Marc:But he's an he's a neurotic guy.

01:26:35Marc:He's a shy, neurotic guy.

01:26:38Marc:And the whole thing for him has been about pursuing the truth.

01:26:42Marc:of a role, of a scene, of a moment.

01:26:45Marc:And that's really it.

01:26:47Marc:I mean, that is the art of it.

01:26:49Marc:So I think if you're keyed into that and that's what you're looking for and you have an innate sense of what that is, that's an empathy thing.

01:27:00Guest:For sure.

01:27:00Guest:Yeah.

01:27:00Guest:For sure.

01:27:01Guest:And I think...

01:27:03Guest:That sometimes can get lost on a set, you know, when people are just – because it's not a place where that's – unless the director sets that table and says, okay, you know, in whatever way.

01:27:15Marc:And also holds back the forces that, you know, money or we don't have time or you got to –

01:27:20Guest:How many times as a director I've felt like, oh, shit, I got like, you know, 10 minutes to get the shot.

01:27:25Guest:Yeah.

01:27:25Guest:I'm not going to go up to, you know, whoever and say like, hey, I got to get the shot in 10 minutes.

01:27:30Guest:Yeah.

01:27:31Guest:Yeah.

01:27:31Guest:That's the last thing I want to do.

01:27:34Guest:Yeah.

01:27:34Guest:So there's so many things that are going on that you just want to shield everybody else from.

01:27:38Guest:And then it's just sort of like you want to have this exploratory space where there isn't pressure, but it is in a situation that there is always pressure.

01:27:46Marc:Sure.

01:27:46Marc:But sometimes you got two actors like, is this the martini?

01:27:48Marc:Are we done?

01:27:49Guest:Right.

01:27:49Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:27:50Guest:Yeah.

01:27:50Guest:For sure.

01:27:51Guest:Well, yeah.

01:27:52Guest:Owen.

01:27:58Guest:Yeah.

01:27:59Marc:You guys are going to have fun.

01:28:01Guest:All right, man.

01:28:02Guest:And your health is good?

01:28:03Guest:My health is good.

01:28:05Guest:I'm 10 years past my prostate cancer.

01:28:09Marc:Well, how did you not catch that?

01:28:11Guest:I caught it because my doctor gave me a PSA test.

01:28:16Marc:Oh, so like the right way.

01:28:17Guest:So you went in for the checkup.

01:28:19Guest:The thing was, I had it at 47, 48, my PSA started going on.

01:28:23Guest:And the national guidelines are like at 50, you get your, it's a blood test.

01:28:27Guest:Yeah, I know, yeah.

01:28:27Guest:But my doctor just started giving it to me at like 46, 47, thankfully.

01:28:32Guest:And he looked at it and monitored it for like a year or two and he saw a jump and he said, hey, maybe you should get it checked out.

01:28:37Marc:That's good, because that's a treatable thing.

01:28:39Guest:It is a treatable thing.

01:28:40Guest:If you get checked out.

01:28:41Guest:Yeah, but a lot of people, you know— They miss it.

01:28:43Guest:Yeah.

01:28:43Guest:Yeah, I mean, I used to— I mean, it's what President Biden is dealing with right now.

01:28:47Guest:Well, he's old.

01:28:48Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:28:49Guest:Well, the thing is, a lot of people, they get diagnosed with prostate cancer at a certain age where they don't do anything about it anyway because it won't grow—

01:28:56Guest:past their natural lifespan oh really yeah so you just got to get those when you get it it's when you're younger and you get it you just got to get the psa yeah yeah and you do it every year get the colonoscopy when you're supposed to all that and by the way yeah i mean not to talk colonoscopy but like you know the last time i did that my doctor explained it to me in a way because i i don't know about you but like i don't like going in for tests and things like that i don't want to there are people i know who get like every year the whole how about those people the full body scan full

01:29:23Guest:Body scan.

01:29:24Guest:I can't do it.

01:29:24Guest:Yeah.

01:29:25Guest:Right.

01:29:25Guest:Because you're scared of what you're going to find.

01:29:26Guest:Yeah.

01:29:27Marc:I had the calcium, you know, the heart, you know, plaque test.

01:29:30Marc:Right.

01:29:31Marc:Like eight or nine years ago.

01:29:32Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, that didn't turn out.

01:29:33Marc:No, I did that too.

01:29:34Marc:A CAT scan?

01:29:35Guest:Yeah.

01:29:35Marc:A heart CAT scan?

01:29:36Marc:Yeah.

01:29:36Marc:Where they can see how much plaque you have?

01:29:39Marc:Yeah.

01:29:39Marc:I didn't like that.

01:29:40Guest:Because you didn't want to know that the plaque, how much.

01:29:43Guest:Well, I kind of wanted to know because I didn't want it to clog up.

01:29:45Guest:But you should, right?

01:29:46Guest:You should do that.

01:29:46Guest:No, of course.

01:29:47Guest:Yeah.

01:29:47Guest:And the thing is, when you, like, the colonoscopy thing, it's like, the guy explained to me, he's like, hey, if you do this every whatever.

01:29:54Guest:Eight years or whatever.

01:29:55Guest:Yeah.

01:29:55Guest:Six.

01:29:56Guest:They can find polyps, right?

01:29:57Guest:Yeah.

01:29:58Guest:That they eventually turn cancerous, but they can find them and take them out before they do that.

01:30:02Guest:So in a way, if you do it.

01:30:04Guest:Just do it.

01:30:04Guest:Just do it because you'll be preventing it.

01:30:06Guest:Yeah, of course.

01:30:07Guest:And my fear was like, oh, they're going to do it and they're going to find out, like, I have, you know, two months to live.

01:30:10Guest:No, it all should be preventative.

01:30:11Guest:Yeah.

01:30:11Marc:Yeah.

01:30:12Marc:But now it's so funny because someone told me that they can do the PSA.

01:30:17Marc:The PSA test has gotten specific enough to where they don't have to do the actual finger in the ass.

01:30:23Marc:But there's part of me that's like, go ahead and do the finger.

01:30:27Marc:Just double check it?

01:30:28Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:30:28Marc:Just make sure it feels firm or whatever.

01:30:31Marc:No, I don't like it.

01:30:32Marc:I'm just saying, you know.

01:30:34Marc:Sure.

01:30:35Marc:You want a little physical contact just to make sure.

01:30:38Marc:Yeah, just to make sure that we're connecting here.

01:30:40Yeah.

01:30:40Guest:Yeah, no, so that's all good.

01:30:42Guest:Oh, good.

01:30:43Guest:All right, man.

01:30:43Guest:Well, great work.

01:30:45Guest:Thanks, man.

01:30:46Guest:I mean, I'm so happy I get to be on the podcast before it goes away.

01:30:49Guest:Yeah.

01:30:50Guest:Because you're like the OG guy.

01:30:51Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:30:53Guest:How's it been?

01:30:54Marc:It's been good.

01:30:54Marc:You know, it's a heavy decision.

01:30:56Marc:16 years?

01:30:56Marc:16 years.

01:30:58Marc:But there's this idea now in the media landscape we live in where people just can't understand that.

01:31:03Marc:Like, why would you stop?

01:31:05Marc:Right.

01:31:05Marc:I mean, because we did it.

01:31:07Marc:Yeah.

01:31:07Marc:You know, you want to end up just being like, is that guy still doing it?

01:31:11Marc:You know, let's go.

01:31:12Marc:You know, we did all right.

01:31:13Marc:We talked to everybody twice.

01:31:15Marc:Right.

01:31:16Marc:How many people you had on twice?

01:31:18Marc:Not that many.

01:31:19Guest:I feel very honored.

01:31:20Guest:Yeah.

01:31:20Guest:Not that many.

01:31:21Marc:Yeah.

01:31:21Marc:And we don't, we generally didn't do it at all.

01:31:24Marc:But you sort of created a genre.

01:31:26Guest:Yes, I did.

01:31:26Marc:You really did.

01:31:27Marc:And I feel proud of it.

01:31:29Marc:I don't know what my life is going to be like without it because it is pretty labor intensive.

01:31:33Marc:And, you know, there's going to be a void there that, you know, I'm going to look at as, you know, a world of possibility.

01:31:42Marc:Sure.

01:31:42Marc:As opposed to like, fuck.

01:31:44Guest:Podcasts are so fascinating to me.

01:31:48Guest:I mean, because I feel like they fill this void now that comes from talking about, like when I was working on the movie about my folks and looking at these 70s talk shows, people talked about real stuff.

01:31:58Guest:I think podcasts fill that void where people get real conversations.

01:32:01Marc:Yeah, a lot of times.

01:32:02Guest:Because talk shows now are just, you know, just prepackaged.

01:32:06Marc:Yeah.

01:32:07Marc:Yeah.

01:32:08Marc:Keep the beats viral, whatever.

01:32:10Marc:Yeah.

01:32:10Marc:No, I think some podcasts are like that.

01:32:12Marc:But there's also like I think there's like 20 percent of that and then about 80 percent, you know, mediocre drive time afternoon radio.

01:32:20Marc:Right.

01:32:20Guest:And it's also gotten very segmented, hasn't it, in terms of who the audience is?

01:32:24Guest:Sure, tribalized.

01:32:25Marc:Well, that's a bigger conversation.

01:32:27Guest:Oh, my God, right?

01:32:27Marc:Yeah, on some level, like I said this, I think, when I announced the ending, I was at the beginning of this amazing new medium, but I also feel like I unleashed some sort of evil on the world, the possibilities of it.

01:32:40Guest:Who would have thought that it became such an important part of our political landscape?

01:32:45Guest:It's crazy.

01:32:47Marc:Important's a diplomatic word.

01:32:48Marc:Yeah.

01:32:49Guest:Well, yeah.

01:32:51Marc:I would go with destructive.

01:32:52Marc:Right.

01:32:53Guest:Sure.

01:32:53Marc:For the most part.

01:32:54Marc:But another day, Ben.

01:32:55Guest:Yeah.

01:32:56Guest:No, it's so complicated and interesting.

01:32:58Guest:And I definitely don't want to talk about it here.

01:33:02Guest:Good seeing you, man.

01:33:03Guest:All right, man.

01:33:03Guest:You too.

01:33:09Marc:There you go.

01:33:10Marc:Me and Ben Stiller.

01:33:11Marc:Again, he's up for Emmys as the producer and director of Severance.

01:33:15Marc:You can watch both seasons on Apple TV+.

01:33:17Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.

01:33:21Marc:Hey, if you want more discussion about Ben's work, Brendan and Chris are covering Tropic Thunder on the Full Marin bonus feed.

01:33:27Marc:It's a two-parter that continues this week.

01:33:30Guest:As this music swells and you see this shot and then you get another chopper shot above this chopper.

01:33:38Guest:Like this is before there were drones.

01:33:42Guest:Like to do a shot that high in the sky, you needed a helicopter.

01:33:46Guest:So it's like a helicopter above a helicopter.

01:33:48Guest:And I'm just sitting there watching this going like...

01:33:50Guest:this is good filmmaking.

01:33:52Guest:Yes.

01:33:53Guest:Like they're making this, this like one of the reasons the movie is so successful is that they legit made the movie their parody.

01:34:01Guest:Right.

01:34:01Guest:Like with all the, this movie cost over $90 million.

01:34:05Guest:Like that's a lot for a comedy.

01:34:07Guest:But you know what?

01:34:07Guest:It looks great.

01:34:09Guest:Everything looks great.

01:34:10Guest:Even when they're just like at a river.

01:34:12Guest:Yeah.

01:34:12Guest:I'm like, man, they got a great river.

01:34:15Guest:Like I know they're not in the, in the, they're not in Vietnam.

01:34:17Guest:They're in Kauai, right?

01:34:18Guest:They filmed all this in Hawaii.

01:34:20Guest:Yeah.

01:34:20Guest:but it still looks great.

01:34:21Guest:Like they did all the right location scouting and everything.

01:34:24Guest:Like Stiller does not get enough credit, which I think he gets now because he makes severance and everybody thinks he's a good director for real.

01:34:31Guest:He did not get enough credit with this movie for being a good director.

01:34:34Marc:That's on the latest episode of the Friday show for full Marin subscribers to sign up and get bonus episodes twice a week.

01:34:41Marc:Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.

01:34:47Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.

01:34:53Marc:Here's some Johnny Thunders.

01:34:54Marc:¶¶

01:36:27guitar solo

01:37:28Guest:Bye.

01:37:57Marc:Boomer lives.

01:37:58Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.

01:37:59Marc:Cat angels everywhere.