Episode 1668 - Bowen Yang
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck next what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it so what's going on i got uh i got bow and yang on the show today what a what a treat that was
Marc:We've been trying to get this talk together for a while.
Marc:You know him.
Marc:He's a cast member on Saturday Night Live.
Marc:He's also been in Wicked, Bros, and Dicks, the musical, which was a fucking crass, beautiful piece of work.
Marc:He's nominated at the Emmys this year for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series, and it was just a...
Marc:A very classic kind of episode.
Marc:Classic kind of engagement and talk that is what makes this show compelling to me for all these years and I'm sure compelling to you.
Marc:I know that a lot of the stuff I've been talking about out there in the world and a lot of the clips from my special have kind of taken off and
Marc:And between us, I mean, me and you, my audience, I've been talking about this shit for over a decade.
Marc:And I kind of keep it here with us.
Marc:And making the rounds at podcasts, it's just I don't know why, you know, I feel you get to a certain age where zero fucks are given.
Marc:But also it's like someone's got to fucking say something.
Marc:And the truth is, like, I don't know that I see myself as a courageous person because it's hard to put yourself out there like that and then sort of see what happens.
Marc:It's scary and it's a little overwhelming, but it's not some sort of act of courage in my mind.
Marc:It's just I'm just the kind of person that has to speak their mind.
Marc:Because I live in it.
Marc:I live in my mind.
Marc:I live in the world and my mind processes that.
Marc:And then I have to talk about it somewhere with different degrees of aggravation.
Marc:But certainly in the climate we're in now, I just couldn't help myself.
Marc:And a lot of times I don't necessarily say exactly what I mean because I just don't want to shoulder the burden of that.
Marc:But I always get to a point in most situations where I'm going to unload.
Marc:And if it's not personal or based in spite, then I have to accept it as the way I see things, as a judgment or a piece of criticism or just what I believe.
Marc:And what gives me the right to do that?
Marc:Me.
Marc:Me.
Marc:Who am I to judge?
Marc:Me.
Marc:I mean, who else is there?
Marc:How diplomatic do you have to fucking be?
Marc:Yeah, because you're in the same business or you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, yada, yada.
Marc:And eventually, if I if it's the right day and I'm sitting behind a mic and it's not mine and, you know, I'm going to pop off, I'm going to pop off.
Marc:But it's not going to be unconsidered.
Marc:And, you know, the pushback from people that that that do not like your point of view, the pushback front.
Marc:There's a lot of these debate points that, you know, right wing zombies and reactors use.
Marc:You know, they use, well, listen to this old guy, cranky old guy.
Marc:Listen to the bitter guy.
Marc:Listen to the cuck.
Marc:The idea that guys in their twenties who have zero game and can count the number of times they've been laid on one hand or, or the hand in their mind, or they only fuck that hand calling me a cuck in its basic definition is fucking hilarious.
Marc:No game, just guys out there trolling around looking for their fascist fuck doll with a mouth that looks like it's been hit and covered with gloss and
Marc:And, you know, some sort of blonde spectrum hair, the dream girl who doesn't talk.
Marc:They fantasize about it all the time.
Marc:But usually, again, it's that hand.
Marc:If you don't have a count, you got the hand.
Marc:But nonetheless, I don't want to drift on that.
Marc:And look, I know my problems are not necessarily that interesting or even that bad.
Marc:OK, I get that.
Marc:And I get a lot of my issues are my own and reactions to things.
Marc:I get all of that.
Marc:I mean, I just talked to an old buddy I hadn't seen in about a year.
Marc:Had a massive heart attack.
Marc:My age.
Marc:And just sitting with him and talking through, you know, that journey of getting to the hospital in the nick of time and getting the stent put in.
Marc:I mean, that's that's real fucking scary, real fucking hard stuff.
Marc:Life at this age.
Marc:I talked to another buddy of mine, I hadn't seen a year, had a complete manic break, ended up institutionalized, diagnosed bipolar, got out, trying to level off on some medicine so he can function.
Marc:And he's doing it.
Marc:And oddly, with that guy, I'm like, why isn't this guy texting me back?
Marc:Why is he fucking, you know, avoiding me or whatever?
Marc:And then you find out like, oh, my God, dude.
Marc:Well, I'm glad you're all right.
Marc:That's life.
Marc:You got to sit down with your friends occasionally, especially the ones you haven't talked to in a while and you're sitting there thinking they're an asshole for not getting back to you.
Marc:Who the hell knows what they're going through?
Marc:These two guys hadn't talked to in a long time.
Marc:I started thinking about them and then out of nowhere, one of them texted me.
Marc:I'm like, that must be a kismet, coincidence, mystical, God's hand, whatever you want to say, however you want to frame it.
Marc:That guy was in trouble.
Marc:He's okay.
Marc:They're both okay.
Marc:And it gets me into the present.
Marc:And I had 26 years sober on Saturday.
Marc:Jesus, being grateful for what you have is a big deal.
Marc:Being humble and trying to be human as hard as that can be to be a decent human, especially when you're a flawed motherfucker, hard.
Marc:And God knows I've had my struggles and God knows I've made mistakes and
Marc:And God knows that ultimately I try to show up and do the right thing as best I can in the shadow of my codependency and my alcoholism and addiction.
Marc:But, you know, I have a path that I can I can walk with that.
Marc:And I've been walking it for better or worse, sometimes all in, sometimes not in at all, but aware for 26 years.
Marc:I know that sounds daunting, but on some level, at this age, the years are going by more quickly.
Marc:And all of a sudden, you're at another benchmark, another year of sobriety.
Marc:And I guess I do want to say, because I field a lot of emails and I talk to a lot of people, and I've talked about it here candidly, that the idea of being sober, if you have the bug or you just can't see it,
Marc:Because you do not believe life would be fulfilling or interesting or exciting without whatever you do, whatever you lean on, whatever you can't stop.
Marc:I will tell you from my experience, that's a lie.
Marc:Actually, things get even crazier once you get sober for a good few years.
Marc:You know, you'll know a crazy you don't even have any experience with.
Marc:And that's the craziness of you arriving at you and then trying to get that into shape.
Marc:Who are you as a human when you're not kind of annihilating your possibilities in that department?
Marc:And look, I did it the way I did it.
Marc:And I got it.
Marc:It was fits and starts for years with program.
Marc:And eventually I locked in and I locked in hard and I rewired my brain.
Marc:I let that program brainwash me.
Marc:Because as I've heard before, my brain needed washing.
Marc:I needed a template that I could work within that would make me a less selfish, less fucked up person that could take responsibility for his actions and not annihilate himself with substances or alcohol.
Marc:It's all up to you.
Marc:But I just want to say without, you know, getting too much into it and not acting as a representative of the program.
Marc:However you do it, do it.
Marc:But just know that, you know, if you do it without support, you're going to go crazy.
Marc:And you'll probably the way that brain works, it's going to lead you right back to where you left off.
Marc:And that can happen with the support.
Marc:But if you're going to let yourself go crazy because you're experiencing life for the first time with some clarity and sobriety and you're not just jumping on some other bandwagon to fill that void.
Marc:Bandwagon could be anything that doesn't destroy your life or things that do, you know, a person.
Marc:I guess I just want to express that.
Marc:It's not necessarily easy to live life sober, but it is better because you're in life.
Marc:And then you just have to reckon with your heart and mind and spirit, I guess, on some level.
Marc:But I will say that it's worth it.
Marc:And I will say that anything I have today is
Marc:including who I am, but any success or any capacity to step up and do the work of life and of art, I can do because somehow or another I hit a point where I needed help and I got it.
Marc:And I stayed in it.
Marc:And no matter how hard things have gotten during that 25 years, divorces, deaths, bankruptcy, I didn't drink, didn't use drugs, went crazy, used a lot of other things to try to keep my sanity to, you know, little success usually, but, you know, relief is relief.
Marc:But look, it's doable and it's worth it because what you gain is who you really are.
Marc:So that's my gratitude pitch.
Marc:That's my service pitch.
Marc:And, you know, that's my sharing the hope because you will lose the obsession to destroy yourself.
Marc:And, you know, fairly short time.
Marc:And then you just have to live with that squirminess.
Marc:But it's worth it.
Marc:Even if I don't sound sober half the time, even if I don't in terms of not being drunk, but being a little brittle, a little dry, a little angry.
Marc:Well, you know, look, I choose to hold on to the character defects that define my personality if they're not too dangerous.
Marc:And, you know, you can do it your way.
Marc:You know, whatever you got going.
Marc:So I did this interview with Bowen in my hotel room in New York City a week or so ago, and it really unfolded into a beautiful thing.
Marc:He's nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series at this year's Emmy Awards.
Marc:And this is us having a having a sit down.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, whatever I said this morning that resonated with you was after two weeks of profound, debilitating anxiety.
Guest:After this Albuquerque trip?
Guest:Or no, just the world.
Marc:It happened in Albuquerque.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But to this point where I couldn't compartmentalize anything.
Marc:And everything was coming in at the same intensity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I think a good chunk of it had to do with accepting...
Guest:all right dude you're you're you know you're doing good but it's um it's it's it's also coinciding with like yeah this sun setting yeah so right that is also crazy yeah yeah i can't really separate it all it just all happens at once are you anxious
Guest:I was on Wellbutrin.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:How did that go?
Guest:Not well.
Guest:What did it do to you?
Guest:I was taking it while we were shooting Wicked.
Guest:And what that was, and this is well-documented, was I was flying out of... Well-documented problem?
Guest:Well-documented problem crisis.
Guest:I was flying Sunday morning, a first flight out of JFK on Sundays after an SNL.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you're wasted.
Guest:I was, no, I was quite, I was, I was well behaved.
Guest:No, but I mean, were you tired?
Guest:Just tired.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I would, I would fly back and forth from London to New York, you know, Sunday to Tuesday, basically.
Guest:And, or Sunday to Wednesday, I'd have two days of shooting in London, and then I would fly back and do the show.
Guest:And, you know, it's like seven hours.
Guest:Seven hours each way.
Guest:I thought I could hack it with like nootropics and like Red Bull or Celsius or whatever.
Guest:I thought I could chemically get ahead of it and cut it in a full breakdown.
Guest:How'd that manifest?
Guest:um just waking up and feeling like i didn't know who i was where i was why i was there like why yeah you know like yeah and so then and then i and then i think i had to like i like linked it back to the bulbutrin and i was like okay it's not anxiety it's but it exists that is like a thrum but i think that the main thing was depression and so
Guest:Then we switched to Lux Pro.
Guest:How's that working?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I'm on the lowest dose.
Guest:Actually, no, I had to split the lowest dose.
Guest:I was only taking half pills, and now I've bumped it up to just one cute little capsule.
Marc:And it didn't mute anything?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:There was no adjustment?
No.
Guest:There was an adjustment.
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:There was a huge adjustment those first two weeks where those are no fucking joke.
Guest:And I don't understand how people, how anyone surmounts that and they stick with it.
Guest:The two weeks.
Guest:The two weeks.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:What did it do?
Marc:I'm asking for a friend.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:I was so tired.
Guest:just languorous.
Guest:I like, oh, this is my thing.
Guest:I use a lot of SAT words.
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Guest:This is, this is, this is a product of like my parents getting me on it.
Guest:Like when I was like 12, they're like, you're going to start studying for the SATs now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We want you ready by 14.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but yeah, I was, I was so tired.
Guest:And then, and then I think like through the morass, you come out the other side and you're like, oh, I feel great.
Guest:Really just so one day you're like, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:I think you'd love it.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:But haven't I heard you talk about Prozac, though?
Guest:Well, that was for my cat.
Guest:Yeah, that was the cat.
Marc:And I hadn't done it in a long time.
Marc:But, like, I still believe that through radical self-acceptance... Mm-hmm.
Marc:That I can find.
Marc:Which it seems like you've arrived at.
Marc:I'm close.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's fleeting.
Marc:You know, like I have four days of it in New York because I'm getting a lot of attention.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But when I get home, I'm like, ugh.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:What?
Guest:I was texting Sarah Sherman and Aidy Bryant before this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the days leading up to this.
Guest:About what?
Guest:I was just like, I'm so excited to do this.
Guest:And your episodes are so great with him.
Guest:And isn't he the best?
Guest:And they were like, he's the best.
Guest:And...
Guest:just lots of feelings of love and joy and warmth towards you.
Guest:And so we're there as a resource for you if you ever need... Oh, thank you.
Guest:If off the press schedule you want validation, we will be... You can avail yourself.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's one thing I realized, too, about guys who... Or just people who operate at the level you're operating at within show business.
Marc:I think that whatever my...
Marc:anxiety or whatever I experienced, I think it's, it's some sort of self protection of me getting there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, because like there was, it's clearly no way it's taken me a long time to frame that.
Marc:Like even the SNL experience or whatever, it's like, I wasn't ready for that.
Marc:I mean, if you're not ready for something and you get an opportunity, you're just going to break apart.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know that I'm ever... I've never thought I'm ready for anything.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So how is it, the entry into it?
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, like me getting SNL, at least getting moved to cast from the writers, from the writing job was, I think, the craziest experience I've ever had.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just...
Guest:Probably traumatizing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, I think it sounds like what you're arriving at, though, this week, doing Seth last night, is like, you were talking about this.
Guest:It's like, oh, I've been in that room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like I've been in that room so many times in my life.
Marc:But also not the panic of overthinking it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I've got to, you know, this has got to, what if this doesn't, you know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I wasn't, and can I tell you, I was not overthinking this, even though I was telling, I was telling Sarah, I was like, I don't think I've ever been more nervous for something.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:No, stop.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Guest:I, this is, this is, and you're good at deflecting this kind of thing, but like, I think this is, it's so cool.
Marc:Yeah, it's funny because I always assume I'm more nervous than the guest.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Well, yeah, but I feel like we're peers, you know, but like if I'm sitting across from, if certain guests don't disarm me along with me disarming them, it's like, you know, you're sitting across from Jessica Chastain and I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's not debilitating or I think I can't do it, but I'm like, all right, is this a person?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And yet, where does your ability to disarm come from if you're like – how is that – I don't know.
Guest:I don't know how you square that with your own –
Marc:I approach them as a person.
Marc:Okay, great.
Marc:Unless I'm overwhelmed with fan-ness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's only happened a couple times.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you can hear it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just sort of like, oh my God, so you're, you know, like Anne Hathaway?
Marc:What, are you fucking kidding me?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, but I think the way that you and I were introduced was actually quite nice and organic and lovely.
Guest:It was like Lily, it was Lily Gladstone being like, we were all in Vancouver.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And she had just, I think she had just hung out with you or something.
Guest:Yeah, and she said you were doing a movie with her.
Guest:With her, and she was like,
Guest:you know like bow and mark yeah like okay let's do it yeah um and i feel like that was that's the perfect kind of landing for me as a fan yeah so that you can receive me in a way that is not like a little bit like shields up like oh who is this guy no i know who you are isn't lily great the best
Guest:I mean, so her and I, our thing is that we are star siblings because the craziest thing that I've ever heard from someone in terms of like a cosmic sort of like spiritual connection is that she was like, no, you're my star sibling.
Guest:You're my star brother.
Guest:I was like, what does that mean?
Guest:And she was like,
Guest:My mother was pregnant with a son named August before me and did not come to term.
Guest:And so it was this thing that she mourned her whole life.
Guest:And then one day, years later, she sees you on SNL and we're watching SNL together.
Guest:And she goes...
Guest:that's him she goes that's august that's that's like lily that's your brother what and that was like that was the first thing that was the first thing lily told me oh my god um betty gladstone yeah what a what a fucking legend but yeah but like but like no lily lily has that energy of like she'll tell you something profoundly piercing in that way where you're like well i like and well we're connected for life you know like she has that effect on people she brings in a fully mystical element yes
Marc:That, you know, is not refutable.
Marc:No.
Marc:Because it just is.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:No, yeah, it just is.
Guest:You don't question it.
Guest:There's no, like, there's a reason why she's had the career she's had.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Even before Killers, it's like, God, she's a fucking legend.
Marc:Yeah, I worked with her in that movie I did.
Marc:We'll see what happens with that.
Marc:But she was great.
Marc:The best.
Marc:She's just, like, what an intense and, you know, profound presence.
Yeah.
Guest:But that doesn't belie her own sense of levity.
Guest:She's still funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I just talked to Nora.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I haven't heard the whole episode yet because it just came out.
Marc:It's interesting that over the years, the experience of Asian children of immigrants, it rarely takes a different path.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But hers was easier than most.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, Wally's great.
Guest:What, her dad?
Marc:Oh, you know him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I've met him only a handful of times, but like on the show that we did on North from Queens, like semi-autobiographical.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I see her father and her family through B.D.
Guest:Wong's portrayal of him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Anyway, but he's no, but like she seemed like he was really kind of integrated and kind of liked weird, interesting music.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And like he hung out at Barney's Beanery.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like he's he's that kind of Asian.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't have that at all.
Guest:Where'd you grow up though?
Guest:Um, I grew up, so I was born in Brisbane and then we moved to... Brisbane's like the worst part of Australia.
Guest:Oh, stop.
Guest:I mean, it's, it's like, it's like San Diego.
Marc:I guess, man.
Marc:But when I was like, when I went there and I did a few shows, Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, the Brisbane gig, people were like, why?
Marc:They were like, it's, it's the most righty kind of conservative.
Marc:So I think, and you're not enjoying the beach there.
Marc:All I know is I got there and they had to move me to the smaller venue.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Brisbane sucks.
Guest:Fuck Brisbane.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I have no emotional connection there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We moved when I was six months.
Guest:As soon as I was cleared to fly, like my parents.
Guest:But how'd they end up in Australia?
Guest:My dad was getting his doctorate in mining explosives engineering.
Guest:Pretty specific.
Guest:Pretty specific.
Guest:Was that his passion growing up?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He loved that.
Guest:No, I know he's just a nerdy guy, and I think he... How'd they get out?
Marc:What was that?
Guest:So my parents were part of the first class...
Guest:Of Chinese youth who were able to leave the country for like advanced degrees after the Cultural Revolution.
Guest:So like 85 or some such.
Marc:So he has memories and lived through the Cultural Revolution?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah, but they both do.
Guest:Very different experiences.
Guest:My mom...
Guest:I grew up in this city called Shenyang, which is Liaoning, Mukden.
Guest:It's also called Mukden.
Guest:There's some Manchurian lineage there.
Guest:My dad, meanwhile, was in Inner Mongolia.
Guest:And we just went there.
Guest:I have no sense of any of that.
Marc:I was in Beijing once.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:To do shows.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And what was the size of the venue there?
Marc:It was small and weird.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It was for expatriates.
Marc:You know, it was a show.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And they had just... That spy plane had just crashed there.
Marc:Oh!
Marc:The American spy plane.
Marc:And we were told, like, you know, to stay away from that.
Marc:But, like...
Marc:Don't talk about the plane.
Marc:Yeah, don't talk about the plane.
Marc:What are we going to say?
Guest:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:But it was kind of like mind-blowing and odd.
Guest:Being there, yeah.
Marc:Because it's like, for me, for an American, it was like another planet.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I mean, what the fuck is happening here?
Guest:I know, I know.
Marc:And I became obsessed with the Hutongs.
Marc:Aren't they so cool?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love the Hutong.
Marc:Because it's the only thing that represents that in the dusty Forbidden City that they don't even seem to upkeep.
Guest:They don't upkeep, and it's the most crowded place you've ever been.
Marc:But it's literally dusty and shit, and they're just sort of like, we gotta do it.
Marc:But they don't do it.
Guest:No, but they left it.
Guest:They left it.
Guest:They could have just plowed it over.
Guest:I think they put more effort into re-embalming Mao's body a block away.
Guest:Yeah, embalm the Forbidden City.
Guest:Embalm the Forbidden City.
Marc:Yeah, do something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when I was there, I felt like the Hutongs were some sort of honest representation of how people live, sadly, at least in that city.
Guest:Well, I think it's an honest representation of the way people lived, yeah, like probably before Mao.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, how'd your dad live?
Guest:So my dad grew up in this mud and straw hut.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:In the grasslands, in the fields.
Guest:But actually it was like arid, and so they were like, the family was like subsistence farmers.
Marc:What does that entail?
Guest:Just like, you grow what you can, like canola flowers and potatoes if the weather lets it.
Guest:And they told you this whole history.
Guest:They told me the whole history.
Guest:So my first trip there was when I was three.
Guest:I don't really remember it, but that was...
Guest:when his parents were still living in this house.
Marc:In the Mud and Straw house?
Guest:In the Mud and Straw house.
Guest:And this was their last year there because my mom's side of the family had worked it out through all this... They cut through all the bureaucratic nonsense of... Because it's a whole thing to move a family out of provincial life in China into the cities as they were developing.
Guest:And so there's just all this licensure and whatever the fuck.
Guest:And so...
Guest:Like that had to happen.
Guest:And my mom's side of the family helped with that.
Guest:And then, you know, we moved everyone from my dad's side of the family into the city.
Guest:And like, I honestly don't know if that was necessarily the right thing to do.
Guest:For the grandparents?
Guest:For the grandparents, for like my dad's side.
Guest:Culture shock?
Guest:Culture shock and like they...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They were okay there.
Guest:In retrospect, it seemed like they were kind of happy.
Guest:And I think my mom would agree, but everyone's fine now.
Guest:There's no real hardship.
Guest:Everyone's great.
Guest:It's just, this is all fresh because I came back Sunday.
Guest:And where were you?
Guest:You went to Mongolia?
Guest:I went to Inner Mongolia.
Guest:It's a misnomer because it's the province that is south of Mongolia in China.
Guest:It's not technically in Mongolia.
Marc:And you hadn't been there.
Guest:I'd been, I'd been.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Um, but the last time I went was 2016 and we, and we still went to my dad's childhood home.
Guest:So we go back and it's like, it's, it's about to collapse, but we go and it's cool.
Guest:Like he showed me like this time he showed me like this little closet he built through the wall.
Guest:It's like literally what that looks like over there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're in Mark's hotel.
Guest:Um, and just amazing.
Guest:And, and there's other people living in it.
Guest:No, no, no one's living there.
Guest:It's, it's,
Guest:It's a monument to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is where Bowen's father lived.
Guest:This is where Bowen's father lived.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The little plaque hand carved.
Guest:Oh, that would be fun.
Guest:But we, so I posted, I posted pictures from there of me, like standing in like a t-shirt and shorts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I guess I took a certain stance.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I looked like I just looked like I was of that place or something.
Guest:I posted it to my Instagram because I worked through a firewall and then Chinese social media picked it up.
Guest:And then all the comments were like, not even, not even expats.
Guest:It's like people, like people in China who, and there's a contingent there.
Guest:And I texted, I even texted this to Lauren.
Guest:I was like, you'll be happy to know this, but there's a very spirited contingent of SNL fans who are Chinese and who love the show and whatever.
Marc:What did Lauren say?
Guest:Lauren said, hilarious, the power of YouTube.
Guest:I'm just pithy, but I, so, so, so yeah, like, so these pictures were posted and,
Guest:And then it kind of like proliferated through Chinese social media.
Guest:And then all the comments were like, oh my God, I had no idea his family was from here.
Guest:And there were clips of me speaking Mandarin.
Guest:And they were like, I had no idea he could speak Mandarin.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But...
Guest:The corollary to it was I'd never come out to extended family.
Guest:I'd never came out to anybody in China.
Guest:And it's just my parents and I and my sister who are outside.
Guest:And everyone in America.
Guest:Who knows?
Guest:Well, yeah, everyone in America knows.
Guest:I'm not worried about them.
Guest:But I got a tutor in the months leading up to the trip just to be like –
Guest:hey, my Chinese is fine.
Guest:I don't have the vocab to explain to them what I do, what my work particulars are, what my life is like.
Guest:Would that be allowed?
Guest:It's allowed.
Guest:It's just a cultural thing where it's like, oh, why would you be that?
Guest:Because coming out to my parents, the thing that my dad kept saying was like, where I come from, this doesn't happen.
Guest:But what was the issue in the corollary to the corollary is that I like I was not I had never come out to anybody in the family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I got this tutor just in case.
Marc:This is just this last time you were there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is just like the last couple of months.
Guest:In your history, you never came out.
Guest:You were you were found out.
Guest:I so this is the this is the found out part is like social media kind of the Chinese social media kind of did it for me because all the comments were like oh my god look at how straight he looks look at isn't that so funny and like they're referencing like sketches from SNL or like we've done like meta takes on it where like I'm actually a straight person and oh really gay thing is an act like and so like they like we're referencing that and being like oh my god maybe he really is straight haha yeah
Guest:And then over the week, like my family, like my cousins and my uncles were like, Bowen, like you're, you're really blowing up like on these apps and the comments are so entertaining.
Guest:Oh, they're wondering where you're from.
Guest:And like, they're, it's, it's just, wow, that must be so fun.
Guest:And like, it was just always unsaid.
Marc:Oh, so to that part of the family, the Chinese part.
Marc:To the Chinese part of the family.
Marc:Who live in China.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And they were like, we're seeing it on our, like it's on our algorithms and oh, it's so, this is so, this is so interesting.
Guest:And they didn't say anything.
Guest:They didn't say anything.
Guest:But they had to have – but they're, like, if they're reading through the – they're referencing the comments, and half of the comments are, oh, my God, look at him.
Guest:He's usually so fruity, and look at him wearing, like, you know, a nice button-down shirt or something.
Guest:Like, it was really interesting.
Guest:And then by the end of the trip, like, it just – it didn't come up.
Guest:But the only thing I can –
Guest:clock from this time is that in all my prior visits, they would just ask you, starting from the age of 14, they'd be like, when are you getting a girlfriend?
Guest:Do you have a girlfriend?
Guest:When are you getting married?
Guest:None of that either.
Guest:None of that either.
Marc:So they know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But in light of the cultural sort of reaction to it, wouldn't that be a form of politeness and respect?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Oh, definitely.
Guest:I think I'm still not quite sure how I feel about it, but I am relieved that the conversation didn't have to happen because even with this tutor, like the week before the trip, she was like, okay, let's, let's do like some role play.
Guest:I'm going to be, and she was very, she's, she lives in China, but she's like very attuned to like Western culture and even gay culture.
Guest:Like she, like she gets it.
Guest:And so, and I really looked out with her, but she was like, we're going to role play.
Guest:I'm going to be your cousins.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and we're going to be at this big banquet hall table with all your relatives because this is just what Chinese people do.
Guest:And you're going to stand up and say, I'm getting... You're going to do... What a feeling from Flashdance.
Guest:She was like... And I'm just going to ask you questions that they would ask.
Guest:So the first thing they would ask you is, how much money do you make?
Guest:Because that's what's important.
Guest:And I was like, okay, great.
Guest:I can do that.
Guest:And then laundry list of things.
Guest:And then finally she was like, okay.
Guest:And then I'm going to ask you...
Guest:do you have a do you have a girlfriend and then i was like is that when i tell them and she goes honestly no i was like what do you mean she was like i don't think you should tell them i was like what do you mean like this whole the whole point of this was so that i could like work up to telling them in chinese like that this is who i am and this is how long i've known and whatever yeah and she was like
Guest:How long did it take for your parents to come around?
Guest:I was like, oh, like 10 years.
Guest:And she was like, exactly.
Guest:You cannot expect them to catch up to all of this information.
Marc:So just drop it on them and then expect a reaction that's going to be positive.
Marc:No, no way.
Marc:But it is sort of interesting that you know they know.
Marc:And I would assume culturally there's plenty of gay people that they know, and it's just unspoken.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they're probably just hoping for the best.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Maybe that'll heal up.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It feels to me that even a lot of straight parents who know, that's the only way they can accept it, just by not talking.
Marc:By not talking about it.
Marc:As opposed to saying, like, what's wrong with you?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Get out of the house.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Just suck it up and maybe eventually learn how to open up or tolerate.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My only thing – and I'm not owed this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just thought this was, like, my one shot at, like, doing it in the first place because –
Guest:They're like, what are you doing?
Guest:Get out of the house.
Guest:I mean, my parents didn't kick me out, but they were like, this is crazy.
Marc:Um, and you were, where were you when that happened?
Guest:This was in Colorado.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:It's border Brisbane.
Guest:Then we moved to Ontario and then Montreal.
Marc:So what's your citizenship?
Guest:Dual American Canadian.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:why are you saying like no no i'm like i'm like yeah like oh you're saying like don't be jealous of me no i no no i'm just like i'm like i'm just saying like i'm very i i can leave i'm i'm good like i i feel good about that yeah but i'm just thinking about like the collective mood of like what it means to like have both and i'm lucky to have an exit strategy that is you know in paperwork right that you gotta find the papers first yeah
Marc:Well, I used to do a bit about that, like about applying for Canadian permanent residency status.
Marc:Because, you know, I don't want to be the Jew at the border without his papers.
Marc:When it goes down, you know, I don't want to be standing there holding a stack of scripts that I wrote.
Guest:There's an exchange rate for that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you didn't come out.
Guest:I was found out.
Guest:My parents found out.
Guest:So that was not on my terms.
Marc:But at this point, your father's established.
Marc:He's working.
Marc:He's living the immigrant life to his full potential.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And he believes that if you do what I do, you can be a success.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like the sort of crazy, insane...
Guest:blemish on that dream is like oh having a gay son like that is and there's some cultural significance to him being the eldest of his brothers and that the son of the eldest brother even though you're the king
Guest:that i well that i like have to like there's there's this meaningful lineage that i have to sort of uphold yeah as as the son of the other like i don't i don't understand really how it works like like it's all bullshit yeah i can say yeah as as a westernized person it's not tribal it's uh it's like uh
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what it is.
Marc:It's not caste, but it's... Filial something.
Marc:Traditional kind of structures.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Ancient structures.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Hegemony.
Guest:Yeah, something.
Guest:Neither of us are... Anthropologists.
Marc:Anthropologists.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But so what happens?
Guest:So what happens?
Guest:Well, I mean, you know, it all worked out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And part of me have to because at some point you're like, it's got to work out.
Marc:It's going to work out even if it doesn't work out.
Marc:You got to live your life unless you're fragile and, you know, collapse into yourself and fucking disappear.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which kind of happened.
Guest:It happened during this whole crash out with the Balbutrin.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But anyway.
Guest:Different reason.
Guest:Different reason.
Marc:But what does happen when they find out?
Guest:Well, dad's an engineer.
Guest:Mom used to be a doctor.
Guest:They are solutions-oriented people.
Marc:But they're also humanists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they were like, we found this guy, this person in Colorado Springs, and we're going to go there.
Marc:Colorado Springs, that's the heart of it.
Marc:That's the heart of it.
Marc:Focus on family.
Guest:Focus on the family, Omega Church, Central.
Marc:And this was right after- How gay was the guy that ran that place?
Guest:So he was not super gay at first blush, but then he let something slip on the last session.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was really amazing.
Guest:And can I tell you, he was like, so this was like, it was only eight weeks and the ultimatum was like, I could either stay in state and live with my parents in Denver for college or because my sister was at NYU, they were like, or if you go to conversion therapy and see this guy, you can go to NYU and live with your sister.
Guest:And these poor people didn't know that it's the gayest school in the country.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I went, I acquiesced, and my dad and I would drive two hours each way to Colorado Springs.
Guest:And those drives were actually, like, really good bonding time for us.
Guest:Feel like men?
Guest:God, I don't know.
Guest:We just, we would, like, go to gas.
Marc:Was he being overcompensating?
Guest:No, my dad is...
Guest:I don't know what is masculine about my dad more than like, I don't know.
Guest:Like these, like these, like these, these notions of masculinity in any culture are so silly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Don't you think?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't, you know, I don't, I know that I don't, you know, abide or, or instinctively represent most of them, but I, I can, you know, I can, there've been moments where I get it, but it's a pretty broad spectrum.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Unfortunately, the dominant spectrum now is not great.
Guest:It's not great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll take my dad's strain of that any day.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's just like... But the weirdest thing about the far end of the spectrum, which is dominant culturally-wise, is that they're so gay.
Marc:They're so gay.
Marc:I mean, I can't...
Marc:I mean, it's like the attention to this sort of weird anal attention to their grooming.
Marc:Yeah, but when I see pictures of groups of young Republican men, I'm like, oh, come on.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Let it go.
Marc:And the fact that these guys are trying to make themselves attractive to this fictional woman that they think is going to... Reject them.
Marc:or manifest as these trad wives or whatever.
Marc:It's like, what are you going to do with that?
Marc:I mean, the lack of game that you can just see in all of these guys is profound.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Well, whatever.
Guest:And one thing about gay culture, you don't have to have any game.
Guest:As long as you have the parts that someone else likes, you're good.
Guest:You don't even have to have a dick.
Marc:It's a lot more fun.
Guest:It's a lot more fun.
Marc:Yeah, I had a professor in college that he was sort of obsessed with me
Marc:And I kind of let that happen because I was so fascinated with gay culture at the time.
Marc:It just seemed like even though I wasn't gay, I'm like, they're really having a good time.
Marc:I think I used to do a bit about that.
Marc:I'd say like, I think most guys are gay if you just relax.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:When you hear sort of effeminate dudes talk, like, you know, hi.
Marc:You're like, if you just let yourself do things, like, why wouldn't you do that all the time?
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's so relieving.
Marc:You almost want to kind of cry and be happy all the time.
Guest:It's so double-make hair in a way.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Just let it go, man.
Guest:Just relax.
Guest:Just relax.
Guest:That's why, I mean, like, me reading all these comments on tiny social media about how, like,
Guest:usually effeminate I am.
Guest:I was just kind of like, I was like, yeah, like it's, it's the water's warm.
Guest:Like it's okay.
Marc:But it's weird.
Marc:Like if I think about it, even just talking to you now, if I'm thinking out loud, it's not really effeminate.
Marc:It's just a different male on the spectrum of maleness.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It's kind of, it's kind of weird because I've never seen women act like gay guys.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like I, you don't see a woman going, she's kind of acting like a gay dude.
Guest:Wait, you should do a bit about this.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:But it's true.
Marc:What feminine qualities are they talking about?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Even the amplification or the heightening in drag, it's like they're not acting like women.
Guest:No, that is the thing that I want to explain to people.
Guest:It's not men pretending to be women.
Guest:It's men doing...
Guest:This heightened, blown out.
Guest:It's like wrestling.
Guest:It's like pro wrestling.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:It's just pro wrestling.
Guest:It's like, oh, it's a heightened version of masculinity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the flipped version of that.
Marc:Well, I think that if there are people that say it's feminine, it's that it's because their perception of what women should be is heightened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's why they're so confused and aggravated with drag.
Marc:They're like, why do I feel this way?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because she's being the kind of woman you want to meet.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Which isn't like a regular woman.
Guest:Which is, yeah, that is the trad wife thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the incels are... I cut in early and said, oh, they want to meet this woman who's going to reject them anyways because that is kind of the operational thing.
Guest:It's like, oh, they are working themselves up to be rejected, to be turned down.
Guest:So then they can internalize this...
Guest:rage at just all women.
Marc:Yeah, they're total, you know, bottoms.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And I have to say, I remember, I think it was like your RuPaul episode years ago where I was like, I think that's one of my favorite episodes of anything.
Marc:It was mind-blowing.
Guest:I love that episode so much.
Guest:I still think about it.
Guest:But yeah, I think...
Guest:My dad, even though he was really like brandishing like a masculinity that he allegedly like represented, I'm like, I don't see him as this like, I don't know, this like paragon of manhood.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, it was based in tradition, which that's the most interesting thing about it, because, you know, a doctor and an engineer, you know, but I think there's two things working, right?
Marc:It's their concern for your life.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then the other thing is, like, you know, the role a man's supposed to play in their traditional point of view.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, and those override, you know, what I'm sure is, you know, a deep love.
Guest:Oh, 1000%.
Guest:And like, and in the time since, like that is, we've all arrived at that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And things are great.
Guest:Um, I just think back to the China thing, back to like this recent trip, it's like, I was talking about this today in therapy.
Guest:I was like, cause, cause what my tutor was also saying was she was like,
Guest:All they care about really is like if you're doing well and how much money you're making.
Guest:And which is, you know, that's not her opinion.
Guest:She's just like, that's the cultural observation she's making.
Guest:And she was like, they won't care.
Guest:And I was like, okay, interesting.
Guest:And I can't help but kind of think...
Guest:is it a conditional thing?
Guest:Like, would they be, would they not be as receptive to, would they like be, would they not be as okay with me being gay if I weren't doing okay?
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Oh, I see.
Marc:Would they accept you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If they, if they could hang your lack of success on you being gay.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And my, and,
Guest:I don't want to, I don't want to, like, I don't want to, like, breach that line.
Guest:But, like, I think about that with my parents sometimes.
Guest:I'm like, this would be so... Because they kept saying, we were just... And, like, in our, like, unpacking of this in recent years, they were just like, we're so sorry we did that.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:They were like... And I've talked about it enough...
Guest:uh, like in interviews and stuff.
Guest:And I'm, and I used to, it used to really be this red line.
Guest:I was like, I don't want to talk about it anymore.
Guest:But now I'm like, no, it seems like we've all really, if we've really moved past it, then it's fine.
Guest:Um, but I, but they were like, we're so sorry we did that.
Guest:We were truly just so worried that, um, that your life was going to go in a certain direction and that you would have been like completely, I don't know, like just, just, just not okay.
Guest:Like your life was going to fall apart.
Guest:And I was like, okay, cool.
Marc:So, and that's also a concern that I think
Marc:Any parent would have.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But they couldn't unlock that then.
Guest:They couldn't unlock that then, and I can't help but wonder, but this sounds so shitty as a child, but I'm like, I have this thought experiment every now and then where I'm like, well, would that still be the same if...
Guest:if like, if success hadn't come, you know what I mean?
Guest:But you don't say that.
Guest:I don't say it.
Guest:Well, I'm saying it now on a microphone, on a microphone, on a very, very, on a podcast with a big audience.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, but, but I don't think that's an offensive thought, but I do think it would imply that you hadn't done your side of the accepting.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Wow, you're good.
Guest:You're really good.
Guest:Oh, Marc Maron.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Guest:That's, yeah, interesting.
Marc:Well, yeah, because, like, in order for this all to work is you've got to let that go and, you know, feel the empathy for their situation.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So if you were to say, like, well, what if you're still looking to, you know... No.
Guest:Yeah, you're right.
Guest:It's not like that.
Marc:Yeah, no, no.
Marc:I mean, but the thought, of course, can be there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but it doesn't serve any purpose.
Guest:It doesn't.
Guest:And I don't even know what purpose it serves.
Guest:I don't even know.
Guest:I guess I don't know where I'm at with the greater family.
Guest:Like the...
Guest:The concentric circles outside of like the immediate nuclear family of my mom and my dad and my sister are like, okay, cousins and uncles, and then like Chinese nationals, like people in China.
Marc:How did it end up?
Marc:I mean, you're talking about that, like when upon leaving.
Guest:Upon leaving, my brother-in-law and I were checking in, and he was like, how you doing?
Guest:How do you feel about this trip?
Guest:And are you excited to go back to New York?
Guest:And I was like, I'm really excited.
Guest:He was like, okay, well, your sister is sad to go, and her coming back here always reminds her of when you guys would come as kids and how happy you guys were.
Yeah.
Guest:uh, and seeing family is always very meaningful to her and touching her.
Guest:And I was like, Oh, that I totally relate to that.
Guest:I, I just think I associate those trips.
Guest:Even, even now I associate those trips with being in the closet.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Cause I, cause it was always, it was like, especially like once I was a teenager and when we would go back, it was always about like white lying and kind of covering.
Guest:And, uh, I just, I remember like my favorite cousin, uh,
Guest:when I was like 14, like I overheard him in another room going to my mom and my sister, like Bowen kind of talks like a girl, doesn't he?
Guest:And it like, it crushed me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, well then like, like the jig is up and it's, and like, it's, it's over.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like it's, it's curtains for me.
Guest:And like, it's like, it's like, I can't uphold this lie anymore.
Guest:And even still, you have PTSD from, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And so I don't have the same sort of unabashed joy about going back there the way that my sister does, I guess.
Guest:And she had to handle three toddlers.
Guest:She was stressed the fuck out.
Guest:And Yang, if you're listening, I love you.
Guest:I can't believe you managed that trip like that.
Guest:I thought you were miserable the whole time.
Guest:It turns out she loved it.
Guest:And it's not that I was miserable.
Guest:I was just like, I was...
Guest:I understood something about those trips in, in total of just like, Oh, these were, these were, these became very stressful for me at a certain point.
Guest:And maybe it's, maybe the stress is gone now.
Guest:Like, like the internet and China kind of did something for me, but also maybe it didn't.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Well, I mean, that kind of stuff is hard, you know, in terms of like I can barely go to the comedy cellar because I struggled so hard there when I was younger that like I just it's just sort of like it all comes back.
Marc:I mean, that's that's the problem, I guess, with PTSD on some level is that, you know, it re-triggers it.
Marc:So, you know, you go to the place and you regress.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you can feel that old you.
Marc:you know, kind of taking hold, and the feelings are real.
Marc:What are you gonna do?
Guest:And then is the inverse of that, like, you going to, like, the Seth studio?
Marc:I mean, like, ah, like, this is where... Well, I mean, like, I go to the comedy store, and I think my problem is that...
Marc:I can't always see who I am in the world that I exist in or my skill set.
Marc:There's just something about like, well, it's like when you go, you haven't seen your parents in a long time and all of a sudden you're 12 again and acting like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's some, that happens and I have to rise above that, you know, and just do a good set or whatever.
Marc:And you do.
Marc:And you do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, but the question I think that we're both asking is like, is it necessary to do that?
Yeah.
Marc:I think it might be.
Guest:I think if you're aware, if you've done the work on yourself as a person, it's not that you should or could or won't or would.
Marc:I do.
Marc:You just do it.
Marc:It just happens.
Marc:I think what's similar about it is that you were in that time, and just as a younger comic, too, you're not who you are yet.
Right.
Marc:I mean... And that's just part of, you know, if you were gifted with, you know, the support necessary from an early age to sort of own yourself and have the freedom to do that, good for you.
Marc:And go fuck yourself.
Marc:I can't... I don't... I've never met a single comedian who's... Who's, like, comes from a... I think you probably met more in sketch than you would in stand-up.
Marc:Oh, maybe.
Marc:Because sketch is so collaborative that you kind of need to function with other people and...
Marc:have a little bit of an open heart to the experience.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whereas with stand-up, it's just me, and I'm well-guarded, and I'm here to shield myself and entertain you with that.
Guest:But that sounds so, I don't know.
Guest:It's just my point of view.
Marc:Yeah, well, no, yeah, it is.
Marc:To be up there with your sword and armor.
Guest:Yeah, why not?
Guest:I always am jealous of the stand-ups who end up at SNL, who just have...
Guest:They're ones that can work with other people.
Guest:The ones that can work with other people, and then... Sarah's a perfect example of that.
Guest:I'm like, oh, you're good.
Guest:You know how to work with other people.
Guest:I mean, she'll say that there was a learning curve, but...
Guest:She's got that down.
Marc:I think what's great about her is that, you know, despite her journey into, you know, extreme self-expression, I think fundamentally she's like a, you know, a Jewish entertainer.
Guest:She is Borscht Belt.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But she's like, and yet she's like, she's just, I think she's so many different intersections of things.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy, right?
Guest:She's Fran Drescher.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She's also like...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Phyllis Diller.
Marc:Karen Finley.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She carries like she has she has it all in her.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Shiny person.
Guest:Shiny.
Guest:I'm obsessed with her.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's hard not to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because there's just so much like she's getting away with something and integrating a
Marc:a type of creativity into mainstream entertainment that, that rarely happens.
Guest:It never happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm just, I'm, I'm proud of her.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:So wait, tell me about the trauma of conversion therapy though.
Okay.
Marc:Because, I mean, you were self-aware enough, but you seemed pretty grounded in yourself.
Marc:I imagine that you weren't only because you couldn't be honest about who you were, but it seems like the foundation of your emotional existence was pretty solid.
Guest:i don't know i i still have this thing now where i'm like oh is is the mirror like how many more how many missing pieces are there like because it was shattered at a certain point right and like it's been like slow work to like sure put it back yeah i i definitely get that and there's some pieces you're like kind of glad that one's gone
Guest:But I don't know what the pieces are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what those, I don't know what the missing, I don't, I've not taken the full inventory.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:34.
Guest:Oh, you got time.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I don't think so, Mark.
Marc:It has to happen now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or maybe, it's like when your bone density starts to go.
Guest:It's like, I think it's irreversible.
Marc:Well, you mean you can never find the missing pieces?
Marc:Yeah, maybe.
Marc:You just have to accept it?
Marc:You just have to accept it.
Guest:Oh, to answer your question, how gay was the conversion therapist?
Guest:You know, he let it slip by the end.
Guest:His first thing that he asked me was, do you want this to be a secular experience or a Christ-centered experience?
Guest:And I was like, well, the fact that you're... It's like the most fucking insane illusion of choice bullshit I've ever heard in my life.
Guest:Well, if I say secular, I know you're going to come at it from like...
Guest:The back end programming of that is going to be God, Jesus, and everything else.
Guest:So I said secular, but the entire time it was like, you're a fucking kook.
Marc:That is kind of funny because he was really just assessing what his angle was going to be.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:um and they probably have it by rote they have it by rote because they're dealing with with fundamentally lost people in a way yeah that's so predatory and weird i mean i just i i feel for like i guess i'm lucky quote unquote that i was like 17 i feel for the people who like are younger are older oh yeah well i mean and younger i guess i think i'm i was right in that goldilocks the people that have to hang up their chaps
Guest:You're talking about the younger people?
Guest:No.
Guest:The people who have to hang up their chabs.
Guest:And there's this thing happening now, I guess, where people are like... It's like people who... I don't know.
Guest:It's people who go back in the closet.
Marc:Well, I think that's fear.
Marc:And I think that in light of what we're going through culturally, that I always wonder about that.
Marc:Especially with...
Marc:You know, the gay community that is, you know, had to sort of define themselves in a way that other communities really haven't through their sexuality and through their choices in order to maintain strength and identity and culture.
Marc:That I wonder how many people are just sort of like, that's just easier to shut up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And not to go all like.
Guest:But I feel like the fact that queer people don't have something necessarily intrinsically built in in terms of connecting with an older generation means that it's just harder to get the connective tissue.
Marc:Well, yeah, because all those old Stonewall guys are really old or dead.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the people who died during AIDS are dead, obviously.
Guest:And it's hard to, as a gay person now, you have to seek it out.
Guest:You can't... No one...
Guest:There's no brochure.
Guest:There's no, like... Yeah.
Marc:I remember seeing a sketch at the Aspen Comedy Festival.
Marc:It must have been in the 90s, and it was the best thing I ever saw.
Marc:And I don't even know what happened to John Rigi.
Marc:Do you know John Rigi?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Is he around?
Guest:I... Didn't he... Wasn't... Isn't he, like, one of Tina's guys now?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:That sounds right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But he did a sketch at the Aspen Comedy Festival, and the sketch was... It was this generational gay couple sketch.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You had this younger, sort of, you know, dockers-wearing khaki...
Marc:you know, passing, you know, kind of new conservative-ish gay couple.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:You know, maintaining appearances and they invite this older couple over to dinner and they show up, you know, full leather, you know, just kind of like dancing around.
Marc:And the culture clash between the two generations was hilarious and very specific.
Marc:And I think it's sort of what we're talking about.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're good with your parents, and the trauma from the conversion therapy did not stick because you have a sense of humor.
Marc:Allegedly.
Marc:But you must have known, you know, two days in, you're like, this isn't going to work.
Guest:I knew two days in it wasn't going to work.
Guest:Although, I mean, going to NYU, I did go back in the closet for a year, and it was just as like a little...
Guest:an experiment.
Guest:And I was like, if everyone reinvents themselves in college anyway, perfect place to do it in New York City.
Guest:So I tried.
Guest:Not for that one.
Guest:I genuinely had feelings for a girl.
Guest:I think I'm a Kinsey 4.
Guest:Kinsey scales like 0 to 5.
Guest:So I'm like, yeah, I could.
Guest:I could do it.
Guest:My voice tracks.
Guest:Anyway, it was one year of being back in the closet.
Guest:And then as soon as my sister moved out, moved from New York City, I told everybody on the improv team, I was like, I'm gay.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:Let's go!
Guest:I think Rachel Bloom was one of the first people I ever came out to.
Guest:She's the right one.
Guest:She's the right one.
Guest:But yeah, the conversion therapist.
Guest:He went into this anecdote about one of his
Guest:quote unquote, like past patients about like his car breaking down in San Bernardino and he had to go into a Denny's and then the waiter was making eyes at him.
Guest:And then in the middle of the story, this guy, my therapist, switches pronouns from he to I without realizing and he caught himself.
Guest:and i was like that was about you you fucked that waiter and this and this was like allegedly like a couple years ago so it's like it's he so that was like that was the last session and the session before that my dad was like can you give us like referrals for people who do this in new york he's about to go to school in new york and this guy's like yeah sure i'll come i'll come back i have the waiter's number i have the
Guest:Oh, God, yeah.
Marc:But you're okay.
Marc:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:But do you feel like, I mean, there is sort of this... You know, it is kind of frightening culturally, but there is this... I imagine the pressure, you know, once you reach some level of gay icon status...
Marc:is maybe different now?
Marc:You're talking about me?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel a responsibility?
Guest:Not really.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Because I don't know how these communities of people that are vulnerable to the type of violence or persecution just on a cultural level, and you're two of them,
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:I don't know if there's a conversation there.
Marc:There probably is.
Marc:Yeah, because I just know as a liberal person who speaks from that point of view, there is a nervousness to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're talking about in terms of the way that you present yourself?
Marc:Well, just in terms of like, you know, because they're so fucking loud and their big, you know, passion for freedom of speech just meant to be able to say shut the fuck up with more confidence.
Marc:Or just a slur that they like.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's all the same to diminish the voice of others.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:Out of intolerance and fear that, you know, you can internalize that and just be like, you know, what do I need to fucking hassle for?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:What do I?
Guest:I'll tell you what I internalize in terms of like.
Guest:the way that I am perceived.
Guest:I'm like, okay, so... And perfect example with this old Chinese social media thing.
Guest:They're like, oh, but he's gay.
Guest:And by and large, we're like, eh, ambivalent about that.
Guest:And then in terms of gay people, they're like, oh, but he's Asian.
Guest:And there's no like...
Guest:There's no, like, I don't know, like, there's no glorifying Asian-ness in the gay community necessarily.
Marc:So, like, either way... You don't get the same fetishization that you get in the straight community?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Are you jealous?
Guest:Aren't you jealous of my Asian figure?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:My live Asian-ness.
Guest:It doesn't play... I mean, to some people it does.
Guest:There are fetishists for everything.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I...
Guest:Yeah, maybe that's... It's so mutually deleterious in a way that I'm like, okay, I don't have to worry about this.
Guest:I really generally don't care.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:And I think people... I think I'm like...
Guest:Just the right amount of disliked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just the right amount of like, well, we don't really care for him.
Guest:Like, we don't care about him or what he says.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's good.
Marc:If you can hold that space in that, you know, the hate isn't so profound that, you know, it makes you, you know, frightened or sad.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Yeah, that's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you can just kind of do what you do.
Marc:And, you know, you got your space and, you know, all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'm just going to be me finally.
Guest:Well, we'll see.
Guest:We'll see what that's like.
Guest:It seems like we're both.
Guest:I think you are in this because this week is so big.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I appreciate that you're sort of imparting this on me.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:I feel like that's kind of where you're at.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:There is something happening.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:That has to do with a lot of things, you know, age being one of them.
Marc:But, you know, because you do get this point, it's like, dude, how long are you going to do this shit to yourself?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, like, time's running out, buddy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you better just, you know... Because it's all fear, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Really.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, like, what are you afraid of?
Marc:And if you really track that stuff, it's like, well, when I was seven, you know...
Marc:All right, so now you're 61.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Maybe you can give that kid a break.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:You totally can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think you need Deluxapro.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I've been pushing back against that for a long time.
Marc:I'm on some other stuff that I don't think is working, but the doctor told me I probably wouldn't.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:I'm on this Busporin for anxiety.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Which is a more specific kind of dopamine re-epatech thing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's not a total SSRI.
Marc:Got it.
Marc:And he literally said to me, he said, this usually doesn't work for people.
Marc:I'm like, that sounds like the perfect medicine for me.
Ha, ha, ha.
Marc:So if I think it's working, then that's great.
Marc:And if it's not working, then not so good, but whatever.
Marc:I'm familiar with that.
Marc:It's like a meta placebo.
Marc:That's awesome.
Marc:Yeah, can be.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You can go either way.
Marc:Low efficacy, meta placebo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how is it at SNL now?
Marc:Everything good?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I mean, I hope we're on the air now.
Guest:Why wouldn't you be?
Guest:After this Colbert shit?
Guest:You're at NBC.
Guest:Yeah, you're right.
Guest:But if they decide to merge out of nowhere, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah, well, it could happen to anybody, I guess.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:But it does seem like, you know, it's in this current media landscape that...
Marc:it doesn't seem like SNL has to make an effort to create a clip economy.
Marc:Like, the show's designed for that.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah, it doesn't have to change anything about itself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, God, I got dinner with fantastic writer Will Steven.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were talking about this.
Guest:We were like...
Guest:okay, like what's, what's the vibe going to be going back?
Guest:And like, when we were both just talking about, we were talking about James, Austin Johnson.
Guest:We were like, should he be worried at all?
Guest:Like, just all it takes is for Trump to say one thing, one thing about him.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, you just got to kind of get some fortitude.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I just think that guy is James.
Guest:Sweet guy.
Guest:The best.
Guest:The most fucking talented.
Guest:He's one of the best to ever do it.
Guest:He doesn't get that credit enough, I think.
Guest:I think he should be able to spread his wings and do whatever he wants on that show.
Guest:But James is like, his story is fucking tremendous.
Guest:It's tremendous.
Marc:That's a great word.
Marc:The Christian entertainment.
Marc:It's so fun.
Marc:He's so grounded in something that is truly his that came out of struggle.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Same with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, when you've got to really fight for your autonomy from, you know— From Colorado Springs?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Dogmatic restrictions.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:It's, you know, when you finally win that fight, you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It must be the best.
Guest:He's just—
Marc:he can like he's a gorgeous singer the dylan thing is the best the dylan thing is the best he's such a good actor just on just like on a baseline level and the way he improvises within trump you know on the when on the old videos he used to do just walking it's crazy it's just so crazy because you could tell it's like it was just generating he's he's in the pocket exactly yeah yeah yeah
Guest:So anyway, we were just talking about him.
Guest:Anyway, I don't want to engender any sort of fear on anyone's behalf, but I just think I'm interested to see what the show will be like.
Marc:Well, it seems like he's... This is weird when you have to talk about a president like this, that his form of micromanaging is being offended by comedians.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:And you just don't know where it's going to land and for how long.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But he had an axe to grind with Alec Baldwin that preceded...
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Marc:You know, SNL.
Marc:That guy was always up his ass for whatever reason.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And I think now it seems like he's not paying a lot of attention to SNL.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because he doesn't feel like he needs to.
Marc:And there's not someone there that he's like, you know, fuck that guy.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:But also that scares me too.
Marc:Like this South Park thing comes out and everyone's like, yeah.
Marc:But, you know, he's not really even engaging with it.
Guest:Would it be better if he wasn't?
Guest:But I guess they kind of were in the beginning.
Guest:But, yeah, are you saying it would be more interesting if it were?
Marc:Not more interesting.
Marc:It's just that, like, you know, within an authoritarian system, at some point, you know, even the ones that are more organized than his, they have to allow some of that.
Marc:to keep the left disillusioned.
Marc:If you shut down everything, then you have Mao.
Marc:He's doing it very selectively, but he also knows that he's up against a lot more people and that he can't just go shooting everybody.
Marc:Well, not yet.
Marc:They're still at Mexicans.
Marc:But eventually...
Marc:But I do think that, you know, culturally, in order for America to exist in the illusion that there is some sort of two sidedness, that stuff is is is tolerated.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:Like you have to keep you have to like keep the illusion going.
Guest:You have to water, like, the opposing plant.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Terrible metaphor.
Marc:I don't know what that means.
Marc:But that's an articulation of control as well.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, like, from what I understand about the Maoist revolution, I mean, that was, you know, you're going down, dude.
Marc:Everyone gets on board, or you're going to go to the camp, or you're going to get killed.
God.
Marc:It's... We're not there yet.
Guest:We're not there yet, but, I mean, there was, like...
Guest:There was a ripple of that that went through my body when we were just getting off at the train station.
Guest:There was a giant mouse.
Guest:I was like, okay, well, is this... I don't know.
Marc:I thought in the first Trump term...
Marc:That the analog to that here is just his constant need for attention.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:It's not a sort of mythological power.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you couldn't get out from under him because every five minutes he's saying something and it's like on your phone.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And it had the same impact as Stalin or Mao pictures everywhere.
Marc:It's just like he's everywhere you look.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Mao kept the Hutongs.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:He destroyed everything else, but he kept the Hutongs intact.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:He's nostalgic about the Hutongs.
Guest:He's nostalgic about the Hutongs.
Guest:I'm like, what is SNL if not an American cultural Hutong?
Guest:So, wow, you're right.
Guest:Thank you for, yeah, assuaging that.
Marc:Was that good or bad?
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't say, we'll see.
Marc:Time will tell.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We'll refer back to that.
Marc:But how do you manage your life now?
Guest:Not well, I think.
Guest:Oh, I mean, compared to shooting Wicked, it's much better.
Guest:I mean, this past season was a lot, but it was very fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how do you choose other projects?
Guest:I don't have, like, a decision-making apparatus.
Guest:I'm just like, oh, am I free?
Guest:Then great.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, I'll just take what I can get.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But are you doing bigger parts?
Marc:Are you finding it challenging?
Marc:Or you feel typecast?
Marc:Or, you know, you're there to deliver that Bowen magic?
Guest:You're talking about SNL or just in general?
Marc:No, I'm talking about other movies and things.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I wouldn't mind...
Guest:i wouldn't mind just like doing the thing that i've been doing i don't want to play like a sidekick anymore necessarily right it's a lot of that stuff yeah but i don't know i'm just i'm just lucky yeah i'm not one of those people who has to like constantly push it forward yeah i think like i'm okay just kind of like parking it somewhere and just being like this is you know what i mean yeah i've been parked for 16 years and and isn't it great yeah
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:But for me, I'm finding that there are some things creatively that when you focus on the one thing and you're a creative person and then you become sort of good at that and proficient...
Marc:There are things in my life that I'm like, well, I want to continue to take risks to feel that, to fulfill that other part of my desire to do something, like music or whatever.
Marc:I'm not saying I'm going to make records or anything, but there's still a rounding off of, I think, the...
Marc:the uh the the broad spectrum of my creativity that i'd like to do like i'd like to figure out how to play characters like you guys that are able to slip into characters i it's like but in what context of like a sketch show or are you just you just mean like for like yeah there's certain things that i'm too self-conscious to do one of them was singing and playing and you've done it yeah i've been doing it yeah and the other is like you know immersing in like a wacky character
Marc:that's fun i mean but but i to me it's like it's too it's too scary because like the the nervousness of occupying it and then not getting laughs i don't know if i could handle it because there's always part of me that's sort of like hey it's me man i can do the other thing i can do me uh-huh yeah because i didn't come up and sketch and i never did that was glow your first big acting thing
Marc:After Marin, yeah.
Marc:After Marin, yeah.
Marc:Oh, sorry.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:Yeah, but that was me learning how to do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, Glo was.
Marc:But for me, a character just means like, well, this guy's not neurotic, so turn that off and sort of occupy this other part.
Marc:I do have a pretty big menu of male characters.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think, I think, I think there's nothing wrong with, I think I, my menu of gay male actions is, is, is a nice buffet.
Guest:It's like, I can, I'm happy at the buffet.
Guest:I don't have to go to another place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, that's just how I, I don't know.
Guest:Maybe, maybe that's like, maybe that's the totally wrong instinct to have and I should be wanting more for myself, but.
Marc:Yeah, no, but I mean, it'll come when you want it.
Marc:I mean, you don't have to want it now.
Marc:No, you're right.
Marc:And sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and be like, oh, that's scary.
Marc:Maybe I should do that.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:My only thing, about SNL at least, is that I'm like, I can feel...
Guest:And this is not, I don't want you to like push back on this necessarily or like this is not fishing for anything.
Guest:I can feel the audience getting sick of me.
Guest:I can feel things just kind of like turning.
Marc:You want me to push back on your cry for help?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that what this is?
Guest:Shit.
Guest:Oh no.
Guest:I just, I can just tell I'm like, and like you, I used to be someone who was like always going for the laugh, always desperate for it.
Guest:And if it didn't happen, it was devastating.
Guest:And I feel like what the great thing that SNL has done for me is just, it's kind of inoculated me from wanting it all the time.
Marc:I did that in standup where like I intentionally learned how to sit in the silence because I don't think that I think that's impactful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that it doesn't mean it's not funny.
Marc:It just means it's landing in a different way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like the idea of constantly going for laughs is, and I did it in this special, like there's literally a section where after I lay out the politics with no hope in sight, I'm like, well, I can be entertaining.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't think that's why I got into this, but I can do it.
Marc:And I just laid into that.
Marc:And I'm really on this weird precipice of like, why don't you just be funny?
Marc:Be more funny.
Marc:Because I think I feel like I have a social responsibility to kind of go deep in myself and then also lay out my political positions.
Marc:But I know how to be funny.
Marc:But it's actually more work.
Marc:It's so much more work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's so much more.
Marc:And I haven't admitted that to anybody.
Marc:It's easier to be philosophical and provocative because you're not expecting the same kind of laughs.
Marc:And then when you don't get them, you're like, well, that's because it's a little much for them to take in.
Marc:But to just really focus on being just laugh per minute funny, that's a job, dude.
Marc:You're so right.
Guest:Because being philosophical is the...
Guest:The diametric opposite of what other, let's say, comics do, where they say a crazy, shocking thing.
Marc:Yeah, to get the laugh that requires them to work a little.
Marc:Huge.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when that works, you're like, yes.
Marc:Because then you know you kind of blew a mind a little bit.
Guest:I love that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, the kind of like just goofier shit, which you can load up pretty good.
Marc:And you can turn phrases that'll do the same thing.
Marc:But to really like tell a story or do a run of jokes that are just laugh, you know, kind of maximize.
Marc:I mean, that's pretty great feeling, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you realize, like, God, it'd be a whole hour of that.
Marc:Is that really what I'm supposed to be doing?
Guest:And then that's the work and that's a lot of work.
Guest:Oh, that's really nice, Mark.
Guest:I feel like you're also clarifying for me that I might be going about this the wrong way at SNL where it's just about like...
Guest:it's just about what's immediately gratifying to both the audience and to you as a writer, because you're just like, okay, like we've only got two days to do this.
Guest:Let's just like load her up with like quick little jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I can tell you breaking news.
Guest:I never want to play a fucking inanimate object ever again.
Guest:I never want to like, I, I don't want to really go for like the low hanging, like gay male fruit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's kind of what like,
Guest:sometimes i don't want to blame anybody but it feels like it's what people sort of like internally want me to do yeah and and i try to push back on it as much as i can and and if you go and find the weird stuff that's like a little more out there and like a little bit more risky or risk taking i should say like it's there it's just like it i guess it just doesn't get the same kind of like response well how does lauren react to it
Guest:I think Lauren just wants it to be a good show for everybody, no matter what.
Guest:Every episode, he really wants it to just be the best show.
Guest:He's like that kind of impresario person.
Marc:It's interesting kind of the techniques.
Marc:It does seem like it would be pressure to be the gay cast member.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I want there to be others.
Guest:And there are and there have been.
Guest:Other gay men would be so fun.
Marc:But I think like, you know, when you think about like Hater or something that, you know, the other techniques to comedically, like there's, you know, like to figure out how to do slow burn stuff.
Marc:You know, like I guess it's just an applied, you know, like to see a different timing to how you want to present something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To at least, you know, challenge that part of yourself.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I have it really good there, you know.
Guest:I just think...
Guest:we still, it's still a huge cast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's just no, none of us can afford to like go for the slow burn stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like, okay, well this is, I'm only in two things this week and I got to make them count.
Marc:And there's like 10 that aren't going to be on.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And you know, four performers that aren't going to be on this week.
Marc:So there's a moment where it's sort of like, well, they'll just throw that in there.
Guest:right and like this is gonna you know i'm in now right yeah yeah yeah i mean there's there's there's only so so many minutes in the show sure yeah yeah on top of there only being there being this many cast members and on top of their being like okay well how do you get everyone to score and it's it's just all these things like i think like working there is yeah i don't know well okay yeah being back on the eighth floor this week like did that was there was there a regressive no no okay great
Marc:No, because I love doing Conan.
Marc:And whatever evolved between me and Conan, the thing I realized, I think I talked about it on that opening you listened to, is I was always trying to do well.
Marc:It's just people didn't know me, and I was a lot.
Marc:So when I come out with, you know, hot, coming hot, people are like, who the fuck is this guy?
Marc:So, like, I can forgive that.
Marc:I don't have any of that going back there.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:You know, I'm always happy to be on that floor and to, you know, and I love Seth.
Marc:I mean, Seth is great.
Guest:The best.
Guest:But I was even asking, like, being on that floor and, like, having, like, the SNL doors be right there.
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Marc:I mean, like, that was, like, you know, three days of my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and...
Marc:Did I even audition in the studio?
Marc:I didn't think I did because I wasn't a character guy.
Marc:I think I was being, if anything, looked at for update.
Marc:For update.
Marc:Yeah, so I didn't have to go through that.
Marc:Sure, sure, sure.
Marc:I didn't go through the whole sort of onstage doing character sync.
Marc:Oh, bless.
Marc:I just had the meeting with Lorne.
Marc:Great.
Marc:But I can't even remember really that office until I was back in it.
Marc:That wasn't the trauma.
Marc:The trauma was like...
Marc:How did I fuck this up?
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And you're the candy guy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I was looking for that in my meeting.
Marc:Yeah, no, he swears it was Tootsie Rolls, and I gotta believe him.
Guest:Oh, yeah, it might have been Tootsie Rolls.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Your waiting went better than mine, the first time.
Guest:Because I auditioned enough times.
Guest:The first meeting I took with him totally bombed.
Guest:Didn't get it.
Guest:yeah and um it's because i i came were you already writing there no so so so there was one whole year between i auditioned four times total yeah and two times the first year in 2017 made it to the loren meeting and the first thing out of my mouth i i came in hot and he was like who the fuck is this guy i was like um but by the way i'm canadian too and i speak french fluently and i grew up in montreal and oh my god and she was like what and
Guest:and didn't get the job and they just called me back in a year later and then by then it was fine but it was just like that first I felt this spiritual connection to you after I fucked up that meeting so hard well I mean when I was there it was like it was Lorne and then Higgins came in and he's like looming over Lorne it was like the fucking godfather
Marc:And they're just both looking at me like, am I supposed to be exuding something?
Marc:What am I, you know?
Marc:And I was cocky.
Marc:I don't feel any real trauma about that shit anymore.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:Well, I think...
Marc:by virtue of realizing that i was not ready to do it i never thought in terms of a career in show business or how to get a job i was just a fucking you know monster it's just a comic you know and so there was nothing calculating in my head like i had no angle yeah you know i was just sort of like this is me man what do we you know yeah whatever
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:I was, but I was asking like being back on a, okay, so no, that was not regressive in terms of the SNL piece.
Guest:Great.
Marc:But also talking to Lauren, I mean, and him giving me two days, that was the funniest part about it.
Marc:It's like, you know, he had to be somewhere and we did like an hour or so and he's like, do you get what you needed or do you need to come back?
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, I could come back.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:And I really, it really humanized him.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:He is just an appendage of that floor.
Marc:And he's been walking those hallways for like 40 fucking years.
Marc:And he's a TV producer.
Marc:And he lives there.
Marc:Okay, fine, he's got a billion dollars in the house in the Hamptons or wherever the hell it is.
Marc:But day to day...
Marc:He's never missed a show.
Marc:He's just the guy who works at that place and runs that shop.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:It's weird, but it's also no.
Guest:Trust me, I'm someone who's like, Lauren, you goof.
Guest:But I think about it and I'm like, oh, it's also incredible.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:It's everything.
Marc:So what is this award show I see signs for?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So my friend Matt Rogers and I have a podcast.
Guest:Yeah, for years.
Guest:He was the gay guy in the sketch group at NYU.
Guest:I was the gay guy in the improv group.
Guest:And then we became friends.
Guest:We did sketch together.
Guest:after school, after college, I should say.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then started this podcast, didn't think it would go anywhere.
Guest:And then it's been like the most consistent thing.
Guest:And then we did a bit a few years ago where we just like had no guest on and we were just kind of like...
Guest:unveiled a list of 100 categories and, like, 10 nominees in each one.
Guest:And then we were like, okay, well, we'll announce the winners at a later date and just no plans to, like, actually produce anything or make anything out of it.
Guest:And then we did it at Lincoln Center one year because we got an offer to do a slot there.
Guest:We were like, what should we do?
Guest:Oh, we can, like, pretend the awards are a thing.
Guest:And then we just did that over... This is our fourth year doing it overall, but our first time doing it on TV.
Guest:And so, yeah, it's just been...
Guest:It's just a made-up award show.
Marc:Made-up award show.
Marc:That's all it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I guess the last question, is there, because one of the surprise kind of results of me doing WTF was that it really was helpful to a lot of people.
Marc:Is there a gay Asian contingent of your audience that is grateful to you?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I feel like I'm really lucky in that gay Asian contingent does reach out every now and then.
Guest:And that is really... And they see representation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the touching thing about the China social media moment was that they were like, wow, like...
Guest:Kind of crazy that this guy is on a show like SNL.
Guest:That's pretty wild because there would be a lot of breakdown videos where people would be like, okay, here's who this guy is and here's what he's known for.
Guest:And then one of the things was SNL.
Guest:And they were like, you know, SNL has always been...
Guest:this wonderful sort of cross-section of American comedy and different people from different walks of life coming and just different comedy disciplines arriving in at different moments.
Guest:And they were just like, you know, this is a guy who came up in his own weird way.
Guest:And I think the definitive thing about SNL now is that it is, to Lauren's credit, it's a very great cross-section of comedy today.
Guest:Where you have...
Guest:You have club people, you have old people, you have sketch people, you have Groundlings UCB people, but you also have TikTok comedians.
Guest:There's no discriminating thing there.
Guest:Right.
Marc:He knows how wide open the field is.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And he's taking advantage of that.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:And somehow we all work well together.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:And the reconciliation with Shane, was that real?
No.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:Like the hug?
Marc:Well, I mean, was that because they made a lot of hay out of that.
Marc:They did.
Marc:And, you know, I just wonder what the real feelings were.
Guest:The real feelings are, I think, like we have nothing in common, but I think there's like a mutual sort of respect from afar.
Guest:He's a funny guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Funny guy, I think the trauma that I was talking about in terms of being moved to cast was like, I think I'm still dealing with being implicated in some way in one of these big national stories about cancel culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I'm still working through that.
Marc:Yeah, because you didn't volunteer for that.
Guest:No, and neither did... What I want... What I just want to...
Guest:what i think is important is that like he and i had like in that weekend like a moment of connection just to be like hey are you okay yeah because this is crazy what you mean when it happened when it happened yes like i like when he was in the building so i so like so i don't think he was we were in the building at the same time but like it was announced on that day and then i like that he'd gotten fired or got that the three of us that me chloe and shane were hired and then uh
Guest:I got up early.
Guest:I went to the park.
Guest:I meditated.
Guest:And then I was like, OK, my whole life's about to change.
Guest:Celebratory moment.
Guest:And then I took a nap.
Guest:And then when I got up, we had the same agent.
Guest:So when I got up, my agent calls me.
Guest:And she's like, I'm so sorry.
Guest:And I had all these missed calls.
Guest:She was like, I'm so sorry.
Guest:I was like, what are you talking about?
Guest:Then I find out about it.
Guest:And then my first instinct is, the first thing I tell my agent is, do you have his number?
Guest:Like, I need to call him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I just need to, like, check in and see, like, where he is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, like, there was no reconciliation.
Guest:And you had met him before or no?
Guest:We'd not met before.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so the reconciliation is that, like, what happened, like, on that day that it all broke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, like we're, we're two human beings.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Like, I don't know you from Adam.
Guest:I don't know your comedy from, from anywhere.
Guest:And I think he could say the same for me.
Guest:It was just like, I think these are like human beings at the center.
Marc:What was the conversation?
Guest:So he did not get back to me until two days later.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And speaking of Awkwafina, I was on set for the show for Nora.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:ironically i was like on a set with like a bunch of other asian people you know it was just this thing of like whoa like um everything about that moment was so weird and kismity and um i mean it all broke in this way the reason it resonated was because of like
Guest:the irony of the coincidence of the hirings.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And so the conversation later was like, uh, just, he called me back and he was like, Hey, this is crazy.
Guest:How are you doing?
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Guest:Like blah, blah, blah.
Marc:Um, it wasn't like, I was just joking.
Guest:No, no way.
Guest:He, I have no idea what his, I still have no idea what those days were like for him.
Guest:But then I was like, Hey, look like, um,
Guest:let's like, well, we can make it work.
Guest:It's like, whatever.
Guest:Like I'm like here for you question mark.
Guest:And then I said, and I'll, I'll see you at work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is before they announced the firing.
Guest:And I was like, I'll see you at work.
Guest:And then he, I think at that point he knew something that I did and he kind of laughed and said, yeah, sure.
Guest:And then we hung up because I think at that point he had been told that he was not going to work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the fact that he's been back like multiple times is like,
Guest:There was just nothing to reconcile.
Guest:But I think both of us have had to navigate... Being used.
Guest:Being used.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think there was a recruitment going on either side of like, if you like this guy, then this is what you stand for.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if you like this guy, then this is what you stand for.
Guest:I think both of us are like...
Guest:probably a little bit more dimensional than that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Usually is the case.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you, pal.
Marc:You too.
Guest:Sorry if I was long winded.
Marc:No, you're not.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Did you feel good about it?
Guest:I feel great about it.
Guest:Good.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:What a great talk.
Marc:What a great guy.
Marc:He's up for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series at the Emmys and hang out for a minute, folks.
Marc:Hey, next Monday, my guest will be Ben Stiller, and if you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can go all the way back to episode 79.
Marc:That was the first time I talked to Ben on the show.
Marc:It was a big deal, and this was back in 2010.
Marc:Tropic Thunder, I think, is one of the best Hollywood satires ever.
Marc:Oh, thanks.
Marc:And I had to watch it a couple of times to really see that there are some jokes and there are some nuances in there that are going to be lost on a lot of people.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But nonetheless, you really took on the monster that feeds you.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:But I mean, that never was an issue for me like that to take it.
Guest:To me, that's actually where I've always gravitated.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Then Story Show did that as well.
Guest:That's always where I've found, you know, that's the humor that I've enjoyed is the, you know, where you are able to make fun of this ridiculous world and how caught up we all get in it and be able to look at, you know, ourselves and.
Marc:But I thought that thing did it in such a way like I didn't feel like obviously, you know, a threat to the industry is is decided whether that's decided upon whether or not it makes a lot of money.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So so on some level, you know, you were protected there because the movie did well.
Guest:It did well enough, yeah.
Guest:When you break it down, I think the real chance that was taken was by the studio to make a movie that was that big budget, a movie that was about a subject matter that historically has not really ever been successful at the box office.
Marc:When they decided that, was their decision based primarily on you being in it and Jack being in it and Downey?
Marc:I mean, were they like, well, how can we lose?
Marc:I think no.
Guest:I honestly think it was a unique situation at a studio, DreamWorks, that has changed in the last couple of years since then.
Guest:I think it was a moment in time.
Guest:I don't think that movie could get made today at that budget.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because everything has changed so radically in the last couple of years.
Marc:That's episode 79 with Ben Stiller.
Marc:Get that episode in every WTF episode ad free with a WTF plus subscription.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod dot com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast.
Marc:This guitar bit here is a little swapy, but I do think I landed on some kind of ACDC-ish riff in the midst of it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So here, here, here.
Marc:Take it.
Take it.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.