Episode 1667 - In Conversation with Jim Gaffigan at 92NY
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck next?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Marin.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:What's happening with you?
Marc:What is going on?
Marc:Well, I'll be honest with you.
Marc:I in preparation for the
Marc:departure of my social life in the form of this show, I've realized that, you know, I'm going to have to kind of get that somewhere else.
Marc:It's a very weird thing about what's going on inside of me, I think.
Marc:I think the inner child idea, though, a little hackneyed and probably played out is somewhat real.
Marc:It's an interesting model because I do believe there's part of me emotionally that really hasn't
Marc:really evolved that much since I was probably 13 or 14 and at some point early in college I decided to you know permanently lock that kid in a cage and just you know kind of be different varieties of monster until I leveled off into a kind of a wiser more tamped down version of my adult self but there is this like need for me to to kind of like let that kid out a little bit breathe and you know
Marc:Get on board.
Marc:I had this very weird moment after everything that's gone on over the last couple weeks, just everything that I've been doing and showing up for publicity, the special dropping, just, you know, all the stick being renewed, all the stuff that.
Marc:would generally overwhelm me and does to the point of massive anxiety.
Marc:There was a moment where I was standing in front of my house, and I think this was some other part of me, some younger part of me.
Marc:There was a younger part of me standing there inside of me who was like, how did you even pull this off?
Marc:Whose house is this?
Marc:How did you do this?
Marc:Is that your car?
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, dude.
Marc:I don't know exactly.
Marc:I'm sorry I kind of...
Marc:you know, kept you out of it.
Marc:But yeah, this is what we're doing.
Marc:This is who we are now.
Marc:You know, this is the life we're living.
Marc:And he's like, Jesus, that's fucking crazy.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, it is.
Marc:I have no idea.
Marc:I don't know if you helped or not.
Marc:I mean, did you?
Marc:He's like, I don't know.
Marc:I mean, sometimes I had dreams, but you know, it didn't exactly look like this, but yeah,
Marc:Yeah, good for you.
Marc:And I'm like, good for us, dude.
Marc:Good for us, I guess.
Marc:So that's sort of what I'm dealing with.
Marc:In other words, I went to a meeting the other night for the first time in a long time.
Marc:I know there was a few people out there.
Marc:They're a little concerned at my apparent dryness.
Marc:I'm talking recovery racket talk here.
Marc:So I'm like, well, that's one way to get what you need.
Marc:Because there is part of me that's sort of like...
Marc:When I get stressed, there's a real part of me that's like, why doesn't somebody help me?
Marc:Why doesn't somebody do this?
Marc:Why doesn't somebody make this better?
Marc:Where's my mommy and daddy?
Marc:Well, your dad's got dementia and your mom's down in Florida.
Marc:But I thought like, well, there is help.
Marc:And you know where it is.
Marc:So why don't you go to one of the secret society meetings.
Marc:Reopen those neural pathways.
Marc:Connect the fucking vibe.
Marc:Talk about the isms.
Marc:You dry fuck.
Marc:So that was good.
Marc:Let's see if I stick by it.
Marc:Stick with it.
Marc:I'll stick by it.
Marc:But I got to stick with it.
Marc:Got to go.
Marc:Today on the show, we have a unique thing.
Marc:This is a talk with Jim Gaffigan that was recorded last Thursday at the 92nd Street Y in New York City.
Marc:First, there was a screening of Panicked.
Marc:Then this talk with Jim, including audience questions.
Marc:So we thought we'd share that.
Marc:Me and Jimmy catching up, doing the thing, the old timer thing.
Marc:A couple of old comics, medium old, coming in medium warm.
Marc:Not coming in hot, coming in lukewarm.
Marc:That's what's going on on the show today.
Marc:Bit of a cat update.
Marc:You know, I've done everything I can.
Marc:In order to try to ease Charlie's anxiety and aggression and insane temperament, I've done everything I can.
Marc:I did fellow ways in every room.
Marc:I I played with him until he was panting and exhausted.
Marc:I I play some weird channel Rumschlag or something where it's just almost ambient and neoclassical music.
Marc:And to no avail, he still just locked in.
Marc:And all he wanted to do is beat the fuck out of Buster, which makes it a very sad house.
Marc:So I'm trying the Prozac again at a smaller dose, and it's fucking a pain in the ass to give this cat medicine.
Marc:I know that's not unusual, but these people that have cats, we'll just mix it in with the food.
Marc:I'm like, you don't have my cat.
Marc:I've got to hold this fuck down and squirt it in his mouth, and then he hates me for longer than you think.
Marc:Kids are like, no, they just remember that, the act, not you.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:Seems kind of pissed off.
Marc:But we're a couple days into it and something's happening.
Marc:I think when I did it with him last time, I had a higher dose and it just knocked him out.
Marc:Now he's just a little loopy and kind of surprised and confused.
Marc:He still seems to want to go after Buster, but not with the intensity or focus that he had before.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:I'll try to stick with it.
Marc:I'm not going to project.
Marc:He doesn't seem to like me as much as he used to because something about the Prozac is diminishing his...
Marc:you know, intense need for my attention.
Marc:I'll deal with that.
Marc:I've, you know, I've dealt, I've been in relationships like that before.
Marc:Usually it's the other way around, but, but yeah, but the saddest part about it is that there is this mild tension and I project a lot into my cats and I have this sort of ambient kind of meditative music, but it kind of operates as a soundtrack.
Marc:So whatever I'm projecting onto these cats, you know,
Marc:In terms of drama and sadness, it just gets elevated with this, you know, it's comforting, kind of, it's meditative, but there's always a slight menace to that stuff.
Marc:It's always a sad turn in a movie, or, you know, a kind of pensive, quieter scene, or, you know, someone's just gotten their...
Marc:and they're thoughtful, or it's maybe moving into something terrible.
Marc:So it's not helping me.
Marc:I don't know if it's helping the cats, but it is creating a soundtrack to everything I think is going on in their minds, which probably isn't much.
Marc:I imagine with Buster, it's like, just keep that fucker away from me.
Marc:I imagine with Charlie, it's like, where is that fucker?
Marc:And I imagine with Sam, which is just sort of like, why are these fuckers doing this?
Marc:So, and then the kind of like...
Marc:That's not a good impression.
Marc:I don't know if I can manufacture kind of ambient neoclassical music, but I think you get my drift.
Marc:Do you get my drift?
Marc:So I guess I'll keep talking about this because, you know, whatever I did...
Marc:Leading up to the special, putting it out there, some of the material going viral and stuff.
Marc:It really seems to be getting out there.
Marc:And it is rewarding.
Marc:And I am happy that it's drawing a lot of eyes to it because I'm proud of the special.
Marc:And, you know, there's usual trolling, but most of the feedback is awesome.
Marc:I think somehow or another I captured a moment in our culture and the timing was correct.
Marc:You don't know with that kind of thing because something's going to be on the shelf for a little while before they release it, but the turnaround was quick.
Marc:And unfortunately, in a very unfortunate way, not much has changed since the beginning of this fucking shit show we're in.
Marc:But outside of that, and I believe this wholeheartedly, that there is definitely something in the special for everyone.
Marc:I designed it like that.
Marc:Sure, some things are going to be like a little hard to take or not your cup of tea, but I believe there is something in there for everybody.
Marc:And the response has been great.
Marc:As I've said before, I believe it's my best work and I'm happy it's out there.
Marc:And even the stuff that people are picking up on on the social media platforms in the form of clips, I like that they can survive like that.
Marc:And that even just a little bit has an impact.
Marc:I mean, there's a line in that special that I think is one of the best lines of the special that I came up with days before.
Marc:And it's just a testament to my ridiculous process of kind of generating onstage and waiting for things to be delivered to me that they are.
Marc:And I can't say it's an easy way to go.
Marc:And I don't know where I'm going to go now.
Marc:It's a kind of a...
Marc:It's difficulty.
Marc:And one of the reasons why I always say that this might be it for me is because at the end of doing two years worth of work on an hour and change, you have stuff left over that you can sometimes use to kind of get back in the groove and build out from there.
Marc:But it always feels like it's not going to come.
Yeah.
Marc:And that's where I'm at now, square one.
Marc:Square one with the comedy, and then soon I'll be out of this gig, and that'll leave a lot of space.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Please cue the ambient music.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:But, yeah, so it's not a sad time, but it's an in-between time, and there is a little kind of postpartum weight to it, but...
Marc:I hope you're enjoying it.
Marc:I hope you continue to enjoy it until I am tapped and until the show goes away.
Marc:So look, Jim and I had a nice chat.
Marc:It was recorded at the 92nd Street Y in New York as part of their Craig Newmark Civic Life series.
Marc:The screening went nice, went good.
Marc:And then Jim and I sat down behind the curtain and they just revealed us.
Marc:There was no introductions.
Marc:It was just, you guys sit in those chairs and we'll raise the curtain.
Marc:It was like contestants on a game show.
Marc:It's kind of funny, but I love Jim and I hope you enjoy this conversation.
Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:The most theatrical reveal for a Q&A I've ever seen, right?
Guest:It's like a game show opening.
Guest:Are you ready to play, Jim?
Guest:Let's reveal Mark and Jim.
Guest:Ladies and gentlemen, Mark, what a fantastic special.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Really.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Appreciate that.
Marc:I just watched it again with you guys.
Marc:It's a lot.
Guest:Well, you know, I've known you for a while, and you are a lot, Mark.
Guest:But I think that creatively, by the way, and I'm not just saying this.
Guest:I think this, I feel like you're getting better at this, right?
Guest:Would you agree?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, this is how many years in?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:500 years?
Marc:Well, I guess as a professional since 88, right?
Marc:So it's about the same as you, right?
Marc:Like, I think I first did it, like, 86, 87 was when I was starting out.
Marc:Then they had all those cable shows we'd all do.
Marc:Like, you remember there's Evening at the Improv, Caroline's Comedy Hour, MTV Half Hour, and they would just use guys that had, like...
Guest:10 minutes of material, and we'd do them.
Guest:And I'm sure that a lot of people here are fans of yours, and I've known you for so long.
Guest:And the biggest thing that I picked up in this special, which by the last special was amazing, but this special, there is something very uncharacteristically Marc Maron.
Guest:There is a happiness.
Guest:And that's not to say that you're not...
Guest:the lunatic and there isn't the, the authentic anger, but like there is, maybe it's not happiness.
Guest:Maybe there's a piece.
Marc:I think I may be grounded.
Marc:And I do think, I don't know if I'm happy, happier necessarily, but I am, I think I have a true sense of who I am now, you know, on stage and I have a confidence in it.
Marc:So there's no desperation.
Marc:There's no panic around it.
Marc:And there's no, like, you know, I think the anger when I was younger was part of it.
Marc:Like, I really tried to sell anger.
Marc:Like, I assumed there was a period, I remember when, during Luna Lounge, where I'd get on stage and just improvise these miserable, bitter stories.
Marc:And I could not understand why people weren't laughing.
Marc:And because I really believed like everyone's got to be as fucking miserable as me.
Marc:They're just afraid to laugh at it, you know.
Marc:And then years went by and I'm like, yeah, I don't think it's funny at all, you know.
Marc:But I think what's happening is I'm older.
Marc:I give, you know, less fucks.
Marc:And
Marc:I think my craft is in a pretty amazing place.
Marc:I feel like I have versatility within this thing we've been doing our whole lives.
Marc:And I do think I'm grounded.
Marc:And maybe I'm definitely at peace with myself as a performer because of I think when I was younger, I probably would have tried to do that babysitter joke.
Marc:But it wouldn't have come out right.
Marc:And arguably it's a difficult piece of material, but there was always part of me that sort of wanted to defy an audience.
Marc:And I think that part of me still exists, but now I can be a little more charming about it.
Guest:Yeah, now there is, there's so much about, you know, you develop these skills of developing material and it's all self-assignment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And by the way, let me say the first part when you're talking about some topical stuff.
Guest:We live in a very interesting time and age where I... That's a diplomatic word.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, where I truly believe there is almost zero appetite for...
Guest:the topic that you discussed, and you did it beautifully, and you did it where I wanted to hear more, like that first five or ten minutes.
Guest:And I was like so amazed because there was a time during the first administration of Trump where I think people would just look at the ceiling like, I don't want to talk about this.
Guest:But like we are at a point where like I think –
Guest:You know, you are discussing things in a way where it's very cathartic.
Guest:I mean, I know as a performer it's cathartic for you, but it's like, I think the audience, I could feel the audience going, yes, yes, this is exactly what we're kind of experiencing.
Thank you.
Marc:That was actually tricky on a craft level, you know, if I can talk that kind of shit.
Marc:Because, look, you know, I do politics for a period in most of the specials.
Marc:I would never call myself a political comic because that just means... So, but I feel like it's my social responsibility I always have because of whatever my heroes were, whoever they were, you know, whether...
Marc:you know, be Hicks or whoever, that, you know, there is a point where it's my social responsibility to talk about it.
Marc:But in doing it the way I did it, this special, it was very deliberate because in some of the jobs I take at progressives, that it's very easy, especially from our side of it, and I'll assume most of you.
Marc:So...
Marc:that it is very easy to sound strident and it is very easy to sound self-righteous.
Marc:And I'm certainly capable of that, of strutting through that material with, with an almost aggravated condescension and, and heading into doing the special, like I, I changed it like a week before in starting that material where, you know, the difference between like, Oh, everything's great.
Marc:Great.
Marc:and like, ah, I feel, everything's great.
Marc:Like, so there was, I decided to come under it and just kind of put it, like, do it almost as an aside, you know, like, ah, that's pretty good, you know, because I didn't want it to be tonally off-putting to those other side people until it happened.
Marc:You know, I...
Marc:Like, I really wanted people of all kinds to watch this special.
Marc:I'm like, oh, okay.
Marc:And then slowly go like, oh, what the fuck?
Marc:You know, like, I wanted...
Marc:I made a conscious choice to change the tone of heading into that.
Marc:And then the balance between finding a way to laugh at ourselves as progressives or left of center, certainly, it's sort of delicate because you push that a little too far and they're going to be mad at you.
Marc:But...
Marc:I was able to find these things because I relate to them personally that worked.
Marc:But I also knew that in that first section that I was not going to end up in a place where, like, we're going to fix this.
Marc:But I knew that it had to have a specific tone and balance.
Marc:Because I was doing this stuff on the road, man.
Marc:And it...
Marc:it was, you know, after he was voted in and because of my audience, I was doing red States and it really started to feel like community service.
Marc:Like it, it, it, like it, it did.
Marc:And I feel like it's my responsibility to, to at least relieve something because you know, you, you, you, if you perform in certain States and you realize, you know, I got 800 people in the theater and,
Marc:who are a lot of them may be at home with whoever they live with or maybe alone just freaking out with their phone all the time, scared, terrified, despairing.
Marc:And it did feel like a community event where a bunch of like-minded people could be in this room
Marc:laugh at themselves, kind of laugh at what's going on, or at least feel less alone in it.
Marc:And it felt like it was important.
Guest:I think self-awareness is such an important element of this special, and your stand-up.
Guest:Do you feel any – and maybe you've discussed this and I haven't heard it on the podcast, but, like, do you feel any kind of – because you are kind of this outlet for people, not doing the podcast, do you feel a certain kind of like, well, I'm sorry, folks, I'm not doing it anymore.
Guest:Like, there's a little bit of, like, when I heard you were not going to do the podcast anymore and you –
Guest:do have this voice where even when you, and I, you know, I mean, comedians have this strange affection for all comedians.
Guest:We're all mentally ill.
Guest:But, like, there's, like, when you were, like, doing the Hitler-Theo Vaughn thing, it was, like, really funny.
Guest:And the thing is, it's like, there's a certain aspect of your podcast that was a consistent...
Guest:vocal element of that yeah that i feel like by you stopping the podcast do you feel like you're removing that voice of self-awareness being inserted well i yeah look you know i i feel i know there's a lot of people uh who listen to me
Marc:I get emails, you know, like, but I get good ones too.
Marc:You know, that kind of built a relationship with me and rely on it.
Marc:And it does allow me to explore my ideas and my brain and speak freely without it having to be funny.
Marc:And I am definitely going to miss that.
Marc:But I'm a little exhausted in terms of... Because you carry that with you.
Marc:You carry the responsibility that you design for yourself with your audience.
Marc:With you.
Marc:You have it too.
Marc:And with the podcast, they're always in my head.
Marc:If I decide, hey, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to live my own life for a while...
Marc:I know it's going to fuck up your day a little bit, but I've been telling you how I've been living for 16 years, and I've made some progress, so I want to see how it works in the real world.
Marc:But they live in my head.
Marc:They're like, don't go, man.
Marc:We need you right now.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, I know you need me, but it's not...
Marc:It's not like anything I'm going to do on my podcast is all of a sudden going to change the world necessarily.
Marc:But it does comfort people.
Marc:And I feel bad about that.
Marc:But I do need for my own sanity to sort of let the podcast go as a body of work as opposed to this disposable thing that you keep doing because you have to.
Marc:You don't want to diminish.
Marc:Because you do get tired.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:You know, that section where I say I just want to be entertaining.
Marc:You know, that's a real thing with me.
Marc:Like, you know, I know that I do challenging stuff and I've done it all my life.
Marc:And I don't always know exactly why or whether it's coming from a good place or whether it's literally like I have this great audience, but let's see if they can handle this.
Marc:Yeah.
So.
Marc:And I have that part of me, you know.
Marc:But, like, guys like you, like, I've spent my whole life sort of envying the ability to just be funny.
Marc:Like, just be funny, dude.
Marc:You know?
Marc:You don't have to, like, hammer anything over the head or make these big points.
Marc:And when I did that cat thing, I was so thrilled that it kind of came together.
Marc:Because I'm like, this is just pure comedy.
Marc:I can just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
Marc:And it's not going to offend anybody.
Marc:It's not going to make anybody go like, you know, what the fuck is wrong with this guy, you know?
Marc:And lately I'm like, could I just do like a whole hour of that?
Marc:I don't think I can.
Marc:I don't think I can.
Marc:Because it's actually harder.
Marc:I know when I talk about politics, and this is just from comic to comic here, put them aside.
Marc:I know that I'm gonna lose people.
Marc:I know with that material, I've kind of hardened my, not my heart, but I know that if I'm going to deliver ideologically based humor,
Marc:that is divisive to some people, that it's going to be that.
Marc:So you kind of gird her up and you realize, like, this isn't for everybody, but I think it's necessary.
Marc:And then, you know, when you don't get the laughs that you think you should, you're sort of like, well, that's because that material is a little hard to handle.
Marc:Whereas you just be funny all the time.
Marc:If you don't get laughs, you fucked up.
Guest:But I think that... I always say that comedians get so much credit or criticism for the only type of comedy they can do.
Guest:There is not some... When people are like, oh, it's...
Guest:It's so great that... Why don't you curse?
Guest:And I jokingly will say, Jesus told me not to.
Guest:Some of it is that is the comedy that works for me.
Guest:And so some of it is the most fulfilling form of comedy is what you do.
Guest:Because it's all self-assignment, right?
Guest:It's not as if someone is like, you have to discuss trauma at a certain point in an act.
Guest:That is... Mark decided, I'm going to...
Guest:At this point, I'm going to challenge myself to discuss trauma in a way where I'm not going to alienate the people that are, you know, that have processed trauma.
Guest:I'm actually going to inform them about EMDR and all this, and I'm going to make it humorous.
Guest:It's like that's what's so...
Guest:rewarding about a comedian is you have these tragic things that happen.
Guest:You go, all right, my wife had a brain tumor.
Guest:I think I'm going to try and make this funny.
Guest:And that's the gift.
Guest:And it's hilarious.
Guest:Hopefully.
Guest:So let's talk about like...
Marc:Let's talk about the... But it's important, though, because with the trauma thing, I think that what I'm speaking to is what I learned from doing from bleak to dark in relation to grief is that I realized that there is this zone of human experience that is almost 100% of people
Marc:Have these things.
Marc:Like, you're not going to get out of it without grief.
Marc:And you're not going to get out of it, obviously, without dying.
Marc:And most people, you know, sadly, have trauma.
Marc:Certainly my audience.
Marc:So that...
Marc:And the idea that it can't be discussed in a way.
Marc:So like if you bring that shit out and you lay it out there, obviously, you know, there was a twist at the end of that, you know, that it was relieving to me when I talked to my dad as well.
Marc:But
Marc:But there is this idea that if you bring your trauma up and you do process it, that you do have a certain choice in what the impact really was when you separate it from the PTSD.
Marc:And also, you don't have to be a victim.
Marc:There's something about speaking about trauma, if you're willing to find it in yourself, because I think those kind of things, they break your brain into a sort of victim mode, and then you kind of look at your life and your choices through this trauma, that if you can lighten that up somehow, and obviously some trauma is horrendous, but I do think that giving it some air...
Marc:that, you know, people who never talk about it can, you know, have that weird kind of crying laughing thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right, let me ask you this question.
Guest:So, I mean, I've known you for a long time.
Marc:Yeah, so long.
Guest:Yeah, so long.
Guest:What is, so you're 61, 62, what are you?
Guest:Easy.
Guest:All right, so let's pick an age.
Guest:62.
Marc:In September.
Guest:What does 25, 35, 45-year-old Marc Maron think of on a couple things?
Guest:The success you've achieved...
Guest:Um, the, uh, the, whether it be the podcast, the acting career, you know, the, you know, the, the, the.
Marc:You mean the stuff that happened to you at 40?
Guest:No, no, but what, what does, do you sometimes look back at like.
Guest:What, what does, you know, but you and I also, we, we connected on this anger thing.
Guest:Like I, people probably don't know, but I was just like a, just a simmering cauldron of rage when he was younger.
Guest:Very frustrated.
Guest:And so, but some of it is.
Guest:But like, I was always like, and yeah, I was just sort of like, that guy's going to bust.
Guest:And I was just, I just was the guy that like, he's going to murder someone.
Um,
Guest:And I did.
Guest:But I wasn't caught.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, but the thing is, I mean, some of it is just a compliment of, like, it's so apparent that you've done work on yourself, and you've kind of done this, you know, you've worked and made progress, and independent of your art developing, you've developed as a human being.
Guest:But, like, what would these earlier versions, what is, I mean...
Guest:Because I remember when you were doing your podcast, we were in the Bell House, and it was Eugene Merman's Festival, and you were Angry Mark, and you're like, this is all bullshit.
Guest:And I remember, and it was maybe within a year, and your podcast just had taken off.
Guest:But, like, would that guy be able to understand the work that you've done on yourself, and independent of your success –
Guest:Or would he be like, yeah, that guy's fake.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that guy's bullshit.
Marc:No, because, like, it's weird, and I think I have talked about this publicly a bit, is that...
Marc:I really don't think that I saw comedy as a career, right?
Marc:I don't think I got into it because I was looking to have a career in comedy.
Marc:I have no foresight or capacity for planning.
Marc:I really thought that I just wanted to be a comedian.
Marc:I didn't do it to get rich.
Marc:I did it because I wanted to have the space
Marc:to own the space and express who I was.
Marc:And I really think that my whole journey as a comic was to become a whole person.
Marc:I don't know why I chose this.
Marc:You know, I think I kinda know.
Marc:My mom used to embarrass me a lot.
Marc:Like my mom was like an embarrassing person because, you know, she was, you know, very, you know, beautiful and vain and she had an eating disorder and, you know, she would complicate, you know, you'd go to a restaurant with her and she like, you know, would be like, do you, do you make a pizza without the dough?
Marc:You know, like, it's so like, and it was, it was never ending, you know?
Marc:It was embarrassing, and I think that I lived through that, and I picked the most potentially, I think I wanted to transcend embarrassment and own myself somehow on this stage.
Marc:It wasn't because I'm going to be an entertainer.
Marc:I'm like, this is how I'm going to become me.
Marc:This is a funny story.
Marc:I just want to tell it about my mother because I think I'm probably harder on her than I am my father, or I don't show the good side of her, the gift that she gave me.
Marc:And I think I told this story once on stage, but like when I was probably 11 or 12 years old, my family was on a ski trip with another, you know, another family, the Leffenfelds.
Marc:And we were up in Colorado skiing, the two families, and we were all at dinner.
Marc:I swear to God, it's got to be 11 years old.
Marc:And somehow the adults start talking, like I think it was Bobby Leffenfeld.
Marc:She said, so if you were stuck on a mountain and, you know, you had to eat your partner, you know, like what part would you eat first?
Marc:And my mother, I just remember, she goes, I guess the penis, I'm used to that.
Yeah.
Marc:And there's so much to unpack.
Guest:And you were 11?
Marc:Look, I'm 11.
Marc:And I'm like, what is that even, you know?
Marc:It's just like I couldn't even manage.
Marc:My head exploded.
Marc:It was embarrassing, but, you know, compelling.
Marc:And there's a lot I didn't know about the world, but...
Marc:But my point is, to speak to how I feel now, is that I think this journey, because I don't think there's a lot of difference between me talking to you, me talking on the podcast, and me as a comic, other than structure and decision making.
Marc:I think I improvise everything until it becomes something.
Marc:And on the podcast, I'm talking freely.
Marc:And now I'm talking freely.
Marc:So I don't, there's just different frequencies of me, but there's no character that ever evolved, which fucking annoys me because I'd see guys and I think you have a stage persona.
Marc:Do you think that?
Guest:I mean, yeah, in a certain way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if this is an accusation.
Yeah.
Guest:If this is a subtle, you know, these...
Guest:Yeah, these college kid comedians.
Guest:They wear khakis.
Marc:No, what I'm saying is I always envy them.
Marc:How do I be a persona?
Marc:Can't I just have a character that is kind to me?
Marc:And I guess it is.
Marc:But I guess the point is I think what's happened through the arc of the podcast and through my commitment to comedy as my primary form of expression, that I have arrived at myself.
Marc:So there's a comfort there.
Marc:And I think that at different ages, to address the question, I think I was who I was at that time.
Marc:I don't know that I could have seen me like this.
Marc:Because I watched this documentary about me, and there's footage of me.
Marc:And this is a documentary that goes all through the grief and through losing Lynn and through my home life and everything else.
Marc:And the cringiest part to me in watching it was the footage of me doing stand-up in 1988.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Because I was angry, I was cocky, I had all this swagger that I thought was like, yeah, I'm doing it.
Marc:But it's so pathetic because I was so young and I just took on this disposition that wasn't genuine.
Marc:I could see me in there.
Marc:So I really think at any given point in time, if you would have asked me these things, I was not planning on this type of success.
Marc:I had no plan to have any sort of success.
Marc:I had things I wanted to do that never seemed to manifest.
Marc:And I didn't know why because I didn't have any sort of control of my emotions or my talent.
Marc:And I just think I just grew up.
Marc:So I think that at any given point in time when you tell me at these ages, I believe at those points in time, I thought I was pretty grown up too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, you talk about this.
Guest:That makes sense?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because when you talk about like going into stand up, you didn't think like, oh, this is going to be a career because there is like when I started stand up.
Guest:And I sometimes will articulate this to younger comedians.
Guest:It's like, there was no YouTube.
Guest:There was... Comedy Central was kind of a thing.
Guest:There was no... There was just clubs.
Guest:And there was just clubs.
Guest:There was no... And, you know, when we were talking about your last special, and that was a couple years ago, and there was essentially George Carlin...
Guest:And, you know, Bill Cosby was taking a break at that point.
Guest:And then, and, you know, Jerry was huge, but it was like, it was just clubs.
Guest:And there was not, it was not this middle class at a minimum existence.
Guest:And now there is, you know,
Guest:As big as Nate.
Guest:But, like, it's a great living.
Guest:But, like, when we were starting... He was building a theme park, by the way.
Guest:But when we started, it was... I used to describe it as you would... Because it was after this 80s comedy boom collapse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was essentially going into phonograph repairman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As an occupation.
Guest:It didn't make sense.
Guest:And it wasn't like, oh, I...
Guest:force, you know, saw that it was going to, you know, that cable was going to, you know, simultaneously, you know, it ended up being a joke on the Simpsons, how bad standup was, but it was an outlet.
Guest:That was my first TV appearance was on Caroline's, but,
Guest:I had no expectation that satellite radio would send you a check every couple months.
Marc:When those things first started coming, like when I got an email from SoundExchange, I'm like, this is a racket.
Marc:Who the fuck is SoundExchange?
Marc:And I talked to another comic.
Marc:I'm like, dude, you better sign up because they got money for you there.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And all of a sudden you get these residuals from satellite.
Marc:I'm like, wow.
Marc:I remember living on the Lower East Side and trying to live in New York in 1989.
Marc:And I'd have to drive up to New England to do one-nighters to make a living.
Marc:And you'd get a $400 check and you'd be like, fuck yes.
Marc:Oh, I'm set.
Marc:I'm good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it was great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, you know, just that that kind of scrapping, you know, for a living and but do being paid for doing this was just it was it was so amazing.
Marc:And like when I first started doing like, you know, selling out clubs.
Marc:and doing door deals, because I never understood, how the fuck is Jake Johansson surviving?
Marc:I'm getting $1,350 for five shows.
Marc:And then now when I do a door deal, I'm like, holy shit, they were fucking doing well.
Marc:I didn't even understand that part of the business, like how to make money that you earned as a comic.
Marc:So... But it was different because you could only do... There was not an expectation.
Guest:It was either you either became a writer on... I didn't even know that.
Marc:Those were the smart guys.
Marc:The guys I started with.
Marc:There's only fucking 10 of you guys that make a living, really, at any given time.
Marc:Back then, you know...
Marc:There was like hundreds of comics, but there was like five that were, you know, comedy stars and were selling out tickets.
Marc:The rest of us were just sort of like, oh, someday, you know.
Marc:And...
Marc:But the smart guys that I start with, like Sklar, John Groff, you know, a lot of them, what was it, Lou Schneider?
Marc:You remember Lou Schneider?
Marc:Like, you know, these guys were like, they did comedy for like five years and they're like, we're going to be writers.
Marc:I'm like, is that an option?
Marc:What are you going to write?
Marc:You know, like the whole idea of getting into TV writing, which is just smart call.
Marc:If young comics talk to me, it's like, what's a career in comedy?
Marc:Like, well, if you can write a joke, don't do this.
Yeah.
Marc:Because this is a fucking long shot.
Marc:I never wanted to write, so here I am.
Guest:All right, so you shot this.
Guest:Yeah, it worked out all right.
Guest:Worked out all right in the last quarter, dude.
Guest:So you shot this at BAM.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And you talked about the wall before I saw it.
Guest:I was obsessed with it, man.
Marc:I was obsessed.
Marc:We were going to do it at town hall, no disrespect, but...
Marc:We were booked, and I did Bleak to Dark there, but it's too wide, and there's too many people.
Marc:I'm good.
Marc:My cap for a really good show is about 900, really.
Marc:I can do 11, 12, and then it gets a little far out for me to think I can be intimate.
Marc:I can do it, but it's not as satisfying.
Marc:When I do arenas, I don't know why you guys do those.
Marc:So...
Marc:I don't do it.
Marc:I mean, I have.
Marc:Don't worry about it.
Marc:If so.
Marc:But so I said, I want a smaller theater.
Marc:And we go look at Bam, Harvey, the Harvey.
Marc:And I walked into that place.
Marc:I'm like, it was magic.
Marc:I was like, this is it.
Marc:I looked at that wall.
Marc:That's the real wall at BAM that was on the special.
Marc:And I saw that wall and I'm like, that's the whole show.
Marc:That wall looks like a Rothko painting.
Marc:That wall's got a history.
Marc:It's survived.
Marc:I don't know if you've been to the BAM Harvey, but they never restored it.
Marc:They just kind of maintain it in its state of decay.
Marc:And so it's got this ruin-like quality.
Marc:And I was just enamored with it.
Marc:And I was like, we've got to do it here.
Marc:And then my manager's like, it's the most expensive theater in the country.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't care.
Marc:Take it out of my pay.
Marc:It's got to be here.
Marc:And the guy who's the production designer, this was the interesting thing.
Marc:And this is something that I learned from Rodrigo, the cinematographer who did Killers of the Flower Moon.
Marc:Anyone know his name?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, Rodrigo Prieto.
Marc:I interviewed that guy.
Marc:He's a cinematographer.
Marc:And the amount of work that a cinematographer does to make what they make, this guy was shooting the native characters and the white characters in that movie, the Scorsese movie, with different lenses for a different effect.
Marc:He designed the effect that he used for the camera
Marc:for the white people on a type of technique that they were using in Europe to colorize black and white pictures.
Marc:He wanted that look to represent colonialism.
Marc:And then with the natives, he used natural lighting and all this.
Marc:And you watch that movie and you're gonna walk out of that and you're gonna be like, this is okay.
Guest:Right, and this guy is like going deep.
Marc:So now I'm like, I gotta rewatch that movie again.
Marc:So the point, the reason I'm saying that is
Marc:Because that's the genius.
Marc:I mean, you have to assume maybe on a poetic or mystical or some other level that you're absorbing that.
Marc:I doubt it.
Marc:But, you know, it's in there.
Marc:So the production designer, the first time we're at the theater, it's empty.
Marc:I'm like, the wall, right?
Marc:And he's like, yeah, the wall.
Marc:And we're sitting there, and they don't even have a stage at the Harvey.
Marc:The audience, like, ends on the floor.
Marc:And we did build a platform.
Marc:But we're standing in this empty theater at this kind of decaying vaudeville house.
Marc:And I'm like that wall.
Marc:And he's like, yeah, the wall.
Marc:And I'm like, what are you thinking, dude?
Marc:And he says, I'm thinking Kintsuki.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about.
Marc:So I Google Kintsuki and it's this ancient Japanese art of restoring ceramics, using gold filling to make it alive again and make it a new piece.
Marc:And I'm looking at him, reading the description.
Marc:I look at him like, yeah, go with it.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what your plan is, but do it.
Marc:And so that effect of those lines
Marc:That's where it comes from.
Marc:And he thought he had seen the set, and he'd think, I think it speaks to where you are and the arc of your career and the restoration and kind of putting yourself back together and whatnot.
Marc:And I'm like, I fucking love it.
Marc:And then even on the wall, in the last two bits, the trauma bit and the grief bit, he fades up those lines onto that old-ass wall, and I'm like, this is great, and no one's going to fucking know.
Marc:And...
Marc:So now I talk about it constantly because I'm like, you guys, there's some poetry in that shit, man.
Guest:That's, I mean, you know, because we were talking about this backstage.
Guest:You know, like, the thing with a comedy special is you can only ruin it from a production standpoint.
Guest:But I think that that totally enhanced it.
Marc:Well, now, like, I'm like, what the fuck are these guys, you know, between us?
LAUGHTER
Marc:That's why I love HBO.
Marc:When we were younger, that was it, man.
Marc:The HBO Hour.
Marc:Only Robert Klein did those.
Marc:I did a couple Netflix specials.
Marc:Algorithmically, I'm not their thing anymore.
Marc:So when Nina at HBO was like, of course we'll do it.
Marc:I'm like, oh my God, it's an HBO special.
Marc:and I love it because they know how to treat it's a curated house you know HBO you're going to be on the main page for more than three days and then have a hard time finding it or telling where your family can watch it but what I was going to say is what's with these fucking guys doing 34 minute specials the new version of the old Jew what is with these kids they do a special it's 34 minutes they shoot at the cellar what the fuck is that
Marc:No.
Marc:That's like a tape you use to get work at other clubs.
Guest:All right, so let me ask you... We do ours.
Guest:We do ours.
Guest:No, I totally agree with that.
Guest:We're old school.
Guest:There is also the belief that...
Guest:People, with the streaming has caused people, they'll watch it in chapters, right?
Guest:Yeah, but that's a lie.
Marc:This idea that people can't pay attention.
Guest:Sometimes people put their closers at the top of specials.
Marc:No, but it's like this generalization that people are no longer able to pay attention because the person who was saying that is part of the structure that broke their brains.
Marc:Is...
Marc:It's bullshit.
Marc:My eyes aren't going to pay attention.
Marc:Who are they talking about?
Marc:If the people want to watch it, they're going to watch it.
Marc:I've never been in a situation where I've been watching a movie on TV and 12 minutes go by and I'm like, I don't think I can get through this.
Marc:I can't pay attention anymore.
Marc:Who the fuck are they talking about?
Guest:What do you think is going to happen in the next five years in stand-up?
Marc:Well, sadly, my belief about podcasts and stand-up, I think what's happening because of the fragmentation of media and the kind of contraction of mainstream media and gatekeepers, which some people are like, good, they're gone.
Marc:I'm like, is it?
Marc:So what happens ultimately with social media platforms and the kind of malignant spread of podcasting is that people will adapt to anything.
Marc:And if that becomes the primary world of entertainment, people will eventually just adapt to it.
Marc:So what has quality and what is elevated and what is produced properly will just seem unnecessary.
Marc:So I think a lot of what's happening in stand-up in terms of
Marc:you know, crowd work clips and just, you know, gunning for the hits so you can, you know, you know, get a job where people know you from a three minute piece where you talk shit to a couple about their kid, you know, and then you can fill a room and do more of that.
Marc:I think it lowers the bar for everybody.
Marc:So I think what will happen is that, you
Marc:you know well-produced well-crafted you know thoughtful people that that have chops and and and a real you know uh uh entertaining grounded you know high quality stuff well it just will become more and more unimportant and and it's a it's a sad thing because i who wants everything to be shit right
Guest:Yeah, but, you know, there is also the... No.
Guest:There is... You know, it's... You know, people... I believe that people value their time even more than their money.
Guest:And so, like, those clip... You know, like, those people that do the crowd work or make fun of someone's shirt and all that, and they don't have the stuff...
Guest:they'll go once, but they won't go back and see that person again.
Guest:I mean, I have a larger theory.
Marc:Yeah, but then the next one who does that, they'll go see that.
Guest:I think people mature and they're like, all right, so I was tricked into that, but I want to see Mark Maron.
Guest:Enjoy a grown-up hour of stand-up comedy.
Guest:Well, I think people want an experience.
Guest:They want to be, you know, it's like there's the super entertaining movies that you want to do when you're folding laundry, but then there's the movies that you want to make you... I want to believe you.
Marc:I really want to believe you, but boy...
Marc:People are dumb.
Guest:I think that there's going to be the flavor of the month all the time.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:But in the end, people are like, all right, we've got...
Guest:We're going to go out to a show once a month.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We gambled on that flavor of the month.
Guest:Now, this time, we're going to go to something where we know there's going to be consistency.
Guest:I actually think that a live stand-up show from a good stand-up comedian...
Guest:is way more consistent than the odds of going to a movie theater and watching a movie.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And that's why I think all comedians should be, every show should be sold out.
Marc:That's because what they're putting in movie theaters is largely fucking dreck, too, but it's all right.
Guest:All right, this is from Linda from Belmore.
Guest:Mark, now that you're ending your podcast, what are some things you're looking to do more of?
Marc:I think nothing.
Nothing.
Marc:No, I, you know, look, I don't know what the future holds in terms of, you know, I do know that I do talk and I like to talk.
Marc:So, you know, it does open up options for me because, you know, but WTF...
Marc:in and of itself, is the product of the work of me and my producer, Brendan MacDonald.
Marc:And it is what it is, and it will be what it is as a body of work forever.
Marc:And in terms of, like, I just would like to kind of, like, get out...
Marc:and see who i am and and what i want to do like i played some more music lately and obviously i'm not looking to change careers but i i would just like to have some you know uh kind of untethered freedom to to see what my creativity really wants to do uh and you know i i'm gonna have to do some more acting because they picked up stick which is exciting
Marc:But I will add to that, if they shoot it anywhere but L.A., I'm going to be fucking miserable.
Marc:And I would like to sort of figure out how to do that better.
Marc:I'd like to figure out how to do music better and find joy in that.
Marc:And I imagine comedy will keep evolving.
Marc:So I think I'm going to do what I do just with a little more freedom of responsibility.
Guest:So when the Daily Beast does an article about this special and the headline is Mark Maron is a Swifty,
Marc:I just did a cover of that song at Largo with a band last week.
Marc:It was really vulnerable and fucked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I think she's great.
Marc:I was like, I'm going to do that song.
Marc:It was really sad.
Guest:This is a question from Jill.
Guest:Does the title of the special reflect an embracing of your panic?
Guest:Because as a longtime fan, I think you seem less panicked than ever, which I would agree.
Marc:Yeah, because I think it's an exorcism.
Marc:Like, I am kind of panicked, and that's sort of, like, the primary sort of focus of my work on me in that, you know, like, I have this brain.
Marc:I have, like, I think I was born with FOMO, and... Like, I think I came out of the womb and thought, like, you know, what are those guys doing, you know?
Marc:Like...
Marc:And there's always sort of an urgency to everything.
Marc:And I've got to kind of reel that in.
Marc:I am less panicked, but that only comes through a certain level of acceptance of myself and the tragedy of the world and life.
Marc:And I think through that, I can get past it.
Guest:Okay, this is a question from Mike.
Guest:Who the hell do I listen to now?
Guest:Love stick.
Marc:Yes, people love stick.
Marc:It's kind of a nice, sweet show.
Marc:Well, you know, Dax is doing me.
Marc:So...
Marc:You can try to make that adjustment.
Marc:I'll be around.
Marc:Listen to the old ones.
Marc:Shit doesn't change.
Guest:There was no name on this.
Guest:Essentially, they're like... You coward.
Guest:We are excited to see where your career goes and suspect that you want to direct...
Marc:Yeah, I think I do, but, like, it's very overwhelming.
Marc:Yeah, because I've kind of put the, what is it, the ball in motion, the wheels in motion?
Marc:Whatever adage.
Marc:My buddy Sam Lipsight, one of my dear friends, wrote a book that I optioned, and we've, you know, we've done several drafts of a script, which he writes, and then I go, like, I don't know about this.
Marc:LAUGHTER
Marc:I helped him shape it.
Marc:But we've got a pretty good script after five or six drafts, and we've got a production company that wants to do it, and we're starting to sort of make a budget, and the plan is that I will direct that movie.
Marc:So that's going to happen.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Kristen asks, on your creative journey, I have to assume there have been times when you don't feel like getting back on stage.
Guest:What's the process of getting yourself back up there?
Marc:Well, you know, no one really wants to go to the gym.
Marc:So what gets you there?
Marc:To me, it's like ingrained in me forever, especially from when we were starting out in New York, where you're like, got to get up there every night, man.
Guest:Yeah, got to try to do five shows a night running around.
Guest:And do you feel like it kind of, I feel like it kind of balances me.
Guest:Like sometimes if I haven't gone up for a couple of nights, my wife will be like, get out of here.
Marc:Right, yeah, I don't have that.
Marc:So...
Marc:My cats are never like, well, they're always kind of like, why are you here?
Marc:So, no, it's a habit because, and it's a good habit.
Marc:You know, even like before every special or after every special, I'm like, I think that's it.
Marc:You know, I don't got it.
Marc:I think I'm done.
Guest:It's Ralph Mouth.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Well, Ralph Mouth, I still got it.
Guest:I still got it.
Marc:Yeah, that moment.
Marc:Yeah, I still got it.
Marc:But what happens is usually there's a half hour or so that doesn't make the special.
Marc:There's a bit about dating a borderline personality that has been on the back burner for several specials.
Marc:And goddamn, I love that bit.
Marc:But so so ultimately, it's just it's what I do.
Marc:You know, it's like eating.
Marc:So I don't I don't like not getting on stage because you start to if you don't stay on stage and you know this, that what happens is your your relationship with the audience starts to get further away.
Marc:Like if you don't keep your chops in place in terms of being in front of an audience, you will get a fear or you will get rusty.
Marc:And that's a reality.
Marc:And also, I like that moment of discovery because I do it, I think, differently than Jim, where most of my writing happens when I have an idea that's funny enough to get laughs and
Marc:and then I watch it grow through being on stage.
Marc:I literally corner myself.
Marc:I'll get up there, I'll do the idea, and then I'll wait for the rest of it to unfold and be delivered to me.
Marc:So that process is very compelling and exciting to me.
Marc:There was two tags in that special that came like four days.
Marc:It came the gig before the special, like five days before.
Marc:I kind of keep it fluid.
Marc:And the punchline...
Marc:And, like, I don't know where they come from, but I'm always happy when they arrive.
Marc:And I guess when that stops, I'll stop.
Marc:But, you know, the tag to the Charlie playing, you know, playing with Charlie, and, like, oh, shit, he likes to watch me play with the ball.
Marc:And the line, it was a setup all along.
Marc:That came to me, like, three days before.
Marc:I had another punchline in there, but I knew it wasn't great.
Marc:And so, like, the week before, whenever it was, when it's all been a setup, I'm like, oh, thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:That joke's finished now.
Marc:And...
Marc:And also the line that, you know, we annoyed the average American into fascism.
Marc:That happened, like, the week before the special.
Marc:So I wait for them to be delivered, and that's a very exciting thing.
Guest:You know, some would say that's the Holy Spirit.
Marc:Oh, boy, if you could get me over to Jesus, that'd be something.
Marc:Dylan did it for a while.
Marc:I could do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That would be a great hour.
Marc:Right, my gospel hour.
Marc:That would be wild to do a whole hour really not letting on that it's an act and just do a Christian hour.
Guest:Just do it.
Guest:It's not like you announced it on 92nd Street.
Guest:Why?
Guest:It's going to take me a lot to pull that off.
Guest:This is an interesting one.
Guest:Do you ever worry about saying something that would completely alienate you from your fan base?
Marc:Yeah, I fight it all the time.
Guest:But some of it is, there is, I imagine there's a balance of, some of it is the shock and awe, right?
Guest:I mean, you make fun of a character who's like, is that too much for you?
Guest:But like every comedian has a little bit of, I like that that made you uncomfortable, right?
Right.
Marc:I think a lot of them, I don't think every one of us, but those of us who are, you know, weren't, you know, properly loved and full of anger, you know, we will kind of make it difficult to love us at times.
Marc:So, yeah, I'm afraid of that all the time.
Marc:But you get afraid of it, you know, in all parts of life now, you know, because everybody can say whatever they want about you.
Marc:But...
Marc:I do fight with that, and I don't know if it's necessary anymore.
Marc:I used to do a joke about that, where I'm like, that's sort of what I do.
Marc:I push the audience away to see if I can pull them back in, and I push them away, see if I can pull them back in.
Marc:It's a little dynamic I call dad.
Marc:But I think it would be good if I let that go, because when I watch this special, both of these last two specials have been very active and very conscious.
Marc:The last three homages to the people that had an influence on me.
Marc:You know, because I think, and I just saw this recently, that guy, the babysitter character, is definitely Rick Shapiro.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:No, not that he did that, but do you remember Rick's kind of thing?
Yeah.
Guest:But the babysitter, the Sarge?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You have that kind of angry, kind of like intentional... Oh, yeah.
Marc:No, it's like... Rick Shapiro used to do this bit, dude.
Marc:Oh, fucking Rick, man.
Marc:You remember Rick, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He used to do this bit where he'd do these characters, he'd do this AA character where he'd go, what was the guy's name?
Guest:My name is Ray and I'm an alcoholic.
Guest:So I'm banging away on my eldest this morning.
LAUGHTER
Guest:And I realized, you know, Ray doesn't feel good about Ray when he's doing that.
Guest:So I call my sponsor who keeps me sober and I say, hey, I'm banging away on my eldest right now and I don't feel good about myself.
Guest:And my sponsor said, did you drink today?
Guest:And I go, no, I did not.
Guest:He goes, then you're a winner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Fucking Rick, man.
Guest:This is really interesting.
Guest:Do you think the best therapists could make it as a comedian?
Guest:Ask the therapist.
Guest:Do you think the best comedians could make it as therapists?
Marc:No and no.
Marc:You know, I think there probably is...
Marc:Like, I don't know, because comics are pretty self-contained things.
Marc:And, you know, they process things, you know, publicly.
Marc:But I don't know how, generally speaking, how great they are at listening.
Marc:And a therapist, you know, generally the ones that are, you know, in the racket to kind of like get their own shit together, you know, generally think they're kind of funny.
Marc:But they're not that funny.
Yeah.
Marc:And I got nothing at the therapist.
Marc:I went back to one recently.
Marc:So I would say no and no.
Marc:It's a thoughtful question.
Marc:But I used to get mad when people would be like, are you just like, you know, you're getting your therapy on stage.
Marc:I'm like, no, I'm not.
Marc:But it is cathartic, though, right?
Guest:Yeah, I know, but this is sort of... There's a difference between seeking therapy through performance.
Marc:Well, there are these fucks that, you know... Like, these people, like, you know, the sort of, you know, tribalized, you know, bro-manosphere culture of comics.
Marc:The edgelords who use all the words.
Marc:Um...
Marc:I've seen criticism of comics.
Marc:It's like, you're just whining.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, that's all of comedy.
Marc:What do you think we're doing?
Marc:Yeah, we're whining, but we're hiding it in something.
Guest:It is.
Guest:No, that's a really good.
Guest:I mean, it's so often it's it's tragedy plus time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's like something bothers you and then you figure out how to make it funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just bizarre.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you can't just go on stage.
Marc:You go like, I'm sad.
Guest:Okay, on the pod, Sarah Sherman episode.
Guest:Genius.
Guest:You told us your Albuquerque ice cream anecdote.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What flavor?
Guest:What was it?
Guest:If you had a Ben & Jerry's flavor, what would it be called?
Marc:I used to do a joke that I was so proud of about Ben & Jerry's.
Marc:How much shit can they put in ice cream?
Marc:You know, it's like fudge chunks, chocolate chips, bacon, cheddar goldfish, and pennies.
Marc:Like, I draw the line of currency.
Marc:I'm not going to... So, I used to do just funny jokes.
Marc:I used to do them.
Marc:Um...
Marc:I don't know, like the ice cream that I had in the car that was on the verge of melting, I think it's like, since I'm doing the plant-based thing, they do a pretty good non-dairy.
Marc:So I think it was non-dairy Cherry Garcia and non-dairy, you know, fudge brownie.
Marc:If I had an ice cream, like I am pretty, you know, I like pretty like simple things.
Marc:I don't like it to be too confusing, you know.
Marc:Like, to me, like, really the perfect kind of, like, satisfying ice cream if you're, like, a recovering drug addict who needs something is that peanut butter cup.
Marc:That shit, are you fucking crazy, man?
Marc:When you're, like, it's just peanut butter ice cream with just pieces of peanut butter cup in there, and then when you, like, pull out, like, almost a whole peanut butter cup, you're like, oh, fuck yeah.
Guest:Right?
Right?
Marc:It's like the best.
Marc:I'd have to think about my ice cream, but sadly it would probably be pretty simple.
Marc:You know, just like, you know, fucking vanilla with like, you know, just globs of caramel and maybe a peanut butter cup or two.
Marc:That would be pretty good.
Marc:Caramel's pretty satisfying too.
Marc:Oh, God damn it.
Guest:I think we have time for one more question.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You talked to Scott Frank about your love of 70s westerns.
Guest:Would you ever want to write and star in a western like McCabe and Mrs. Miller?
Marc:It's hard to pull off a western right now, you know, in general.
Marc:But it'd be interesting.
Marc:Like this surprising swagger of the Jew cowboy.
LAUGHTER
Marc:I re-watched The Frisco Kid recently with Harrison Ford and Gene Wilder.
Marc:It's fucking great.
Marc:But I actually had this thought recently.
Marc:Because I do kind of affect a certain ruggedness.
Marc:I think.
Marc:And...
Marc:You know, like I had this moment where I'm like, yeah, I kind of like, you know, I used to think like I'm kind of a cowboy.
Marc:And then like I realized like, I don't know, I think I'm more of a rodeo clown.
Marc:You know, just like trying to distract bulls of my own making.
Marc:See, that joke I think is a solid joke, but to one guy.
Yeah.
Marc:But that validates it.
Guest:It does.
Marc:And I'll fucking commit to that joke.
Marc:Like the anxiety joke.
Marc:I don't think it's finished yet, but the idea that you're not depressed, it's just you peak on anxiety, and then your brain decides, let's just be sad.
Marc:It's like the resting zone of anxiety before you gear up again for the next one.
Marc:I think that's hilarious.
Guest:I think it's funny, too.
Marc:It doesn't get a laugh.
Marc:It doesn't stop me from committing to it.
Marc:I think that's the one liability of doing it the way I do it.
Marc:It's like, I'm going to lock into this and say, oh my God, just keep doing it until it turns funny.
Guest:Well, it's working.
Guest:So this special drops tomorrow.
Guest:You have The Bad Guys 2.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You have a movie also, right?
Marc:Well, I got a little part in that Bruce Springsteen movie, Deliver Me From Nowhere.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah, and I got that in memoriam, but I don't know where that's going to end up.
Marc:And the documentary, I think, got a distributor.
Marc:Is it ever released, eh?
Marc:Yeah, it should be in theaters in October.
Marc:But the Bruce Springsteen movie was funny because I feel like I'm not, like this, I always go into overtime.
Marc:So you end the show and I'm like, I got some more stories.
Okay.
Marc:it was funny who do you play in the bruce springsteen well this is a funny story because uh you know i just shot that indie where i'm the lead you know yeah and i don't have a big head i'm not a diva but i just spent a month shooting a movie that was in every scene and i and scott cooper who i love is a great director you know he wanted me to be the in the bruce springsteen movie but it's a very small speaking part you know
Marc:And I get done with the lead role, and then I come back, and I've got to go to Jersey in a few weeks to do this little part.
Marc:And I was like, what the fuck am I even doing this for?
Marc:It's like, there's hardly any lines.
Marc:I'm on the phone with my manager.
Marc:It's like, they could get any actor to do this.
Marc:This is like entry-level acting job.
Marc:Like, all of a sudden, I'm like, I just did a lead, you know.
Marc:But I took it to another level, you know.
Marc:Because my manager's like, boy, if you want to get out of it, we can get out of it.
Marc:I'm like, I just don't fucking, it's like, it's not, I can't stand out in that part, you know.
Marc:And I texted Scott Cooper, the director.
Marc:Who the fuck does that?
Marc:I text the director of the movie.
Marc:I go, hey, man, I'm just looking over that script again.
Marc:Doesn't seem like there's a lot for me to do here.
Marc:That's one of those things where it's like, don't hit send, you know?
Marc:The fuck was I thinking?
Marc:So he texts back.
Marc:It's like, hey, man, you know, you don't have to do it.
Marc:I just thought it would be fun.
Marc:We'll work together at some point.
Marc:And I immediately go, no, no, no, I'll be, I'll be, you know.
Marc:It's a pivotal part, but the funny thing about that part was it's a real guy, Chuck Pluck, and he was the engineer that Bruce used for years.
Marc:The engineer is the guy that mixes, and we're trying to get the sound of Nebraska to match the cassette tape that eventually became the record.
Marc:They tried to capture that sound.
Marc:It was a very difficult thing to...
Marc:transfer a cassette to to a bandwidth of audio tape that would make it sound good and my character actually is the guy that you know kind of figures it out but during it it's not a huge speaking part and you know bruce
Marc:The real Bruce Springsteen, it turned out it was really fun because we were shooting in the studio and Bruce and John Landau, his manager, were actually at Video Village the whole fucking time.
Marc:So real Bruce Springsteen is just outside the door when you're shooting this thing.
Marc:And I had interviewed Bruce, so I kind of was like, hey, buddy, you know.
Marc:well we you know he knew me he remembered me so we could chat but like i going into it you know i i said to scott i said plotkins a real guy but like there's no footage of him you know so i don't know how to get into him you know as a person and scott's like don't even fucking worry about it and i'm like all right so i learned how to look like i was you know doing the lever yeah you know moving the things this is my whole part
Marc:but I did talk sometimes right so the first time that I talk I have an exchange with Jeremy Strong he goes cut and I'm nervous you know Bruce is out there and I walk into Video Village and Bruce goes you're him you're Chuck unbelievable and I'm like well that's a pleasant coincidence boss
Guest:You called him boss.
Marc:That's my panel story.
Marc:I'm just working it out for when I do press on it.
Marc:And also, I do think that it is unavoidable that that story about locking the ice cream in the car will become a bit.
Marc:It's unavoidable.
Marc:So look forward to that.
Marc:And I think, yeah, the just be funny thing might happen.
Marc:Just be strictly entertaining.
Guest:And the Christian special.
Yeah.
Marc:Between us and God's ears.
Guest:Mark the Apostle.
Guest:Thank you so much, everyone.
Thank you.
Marc:See, that was fun.
Marc:Laughs and information and a couple of friends talking.
Marc:That was recorded at the 92nd Street Y in New York City as part of their Craig Newmark Civic Life series.
Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.
Guest:hey people today marks jim gaffigan's eighth appearance on wtf for full marin listeners we posted a collection of jim's earlier appearances from deep within the archives like i have some jokes that i love that work in brooklyn right like they i have i have like 10 pages yeah of new york city jokes that maybe work on long island right but you know the bell house sure i love doing them at the bell house but they're not going out to they're not going
Guest:But anyway, they can't even, you know, I can do it maybe in the East Village.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not Ohio, though.
Marc:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:And they're not subway jokes.
Marc:But this book will speak to everybody because it's about food.
Marc:And there is a chapter in there about your struggle with the blessing and the curse of the Hot Pockets bit.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And your struggle with food in general.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would say, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's not kind of like, I'm going to change my life.
Guest:It's like, I like to eat.
Yeah.
Guest:It's one of the.
Guest:Celebration.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I write, you know, I wrote it with my wife and she was like, you should have a disclaimer at the end saying that, you know, that these thoughts are wrong.
Guest:Did you put that in?
Guest:No, I didn't do that.
Guest:You don't feel it's wrong because look, we're all grownups here.
Guest:We know we're not supposed to have a Big Mac every day.
Guest:I do, but you're not supposed to.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:I do know what you mean.
Guest:I mean, look.
Guest:I'm the guy who gave you a coupon for a free pint of Ben and Jerry's.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And I'm the guy who took it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And put it in his pocket so he wouldn't lose it.
Marc:To get that bonus episode, sign up for the full Marin where we post two bonus episodes each week.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Here's some kind of guitar inspired by the sad ambient music that I have going on in my house to comfort my cats, which doesn't seem to be working.
Marc:.
guitar solo
guitar solo
Thank you.
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lifts.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.