Episode 1656 - Mariska Hargitay
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast folks hope you're doing okay seriously today on the show is very exciting actually uh i talked to mariska hargitay
Marc:Now, a lot of you know her as Olivia Benson on Law & Order.
Marc:She's played that role since 1999.
Marc:And Olivia is the longest-running character on the longest-running American primetime drama in history.
Marc:She's won an Emmy and a Golden Globe for that.
Marc:But she's here to talk about this amazing documentary that I found very impactful.
Marc:And also just...
Marc:You know, about learning who you are through revelations that are either surprising, either they're informational or they're just, you know, through your own aging and experience with your parents.
Marc:And it's so great.
Marc:It's called My Mom Jane, and it's about her mother, Jane Mansfield.
Marc:Before I get into it, I'll be at Largo for a comedy and music show with the band.
Marc:Some new people this time.
Marc:I'm playing with some new people.
Marc:Try that out.
Marc:They say that's good to do.
Marc:That's Wednesday, July 23rd.
Marc:Tickets are at Largo-LA.com.
Marc:Also, the date of my HBO special, Marc Maron Panicked, was announced.
Marc:It premieres August 1st at 8 p.m.
Marc:on HBO and on Max.
Marc:Okay, now I'll throw to her.
Marc:I'm kind of sweating out here in my studio right now.
Marc:I just got back from New Mexico where I was with my dad for a day or two, a few days, hanging out in the hometown with some old pals, saw the old man.
Marc:Revelations, folks.
Marc:Revelations.
Marc:Not biblical, but those seem to be abound.
Marc:Those abound.
Marc:You know, that book of the New Testament there being one of the older conspiracy theories.
Marc:It is sort of disconcerting when those events seem to be unfolding before our eyes.
Marc:Hard not to go mystical.
Marc:I mean, I imagine, though, because of those kind of stories, the Bible is probably one of the foundational forces in the untethering of the human mind from engaging in the mundane truths of the human condition and current politics.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How's this for some quality yammering?
Marc:So look, outside of processing the terrifying excitement of the new wild American authoritarianism, I try to keep grounded, folks.
Marc:I try to keep grounded in the human component of my current life that is continually unfolding, friends.
Marc:You know, I don't know.
Marc:And obviously, as the unfolding plows along, it becomes a bit more finite.
Marc:You know, I mean, there is the infinite unfolding of the post-life mystery.
Marc:But I think we can rest assured it is a forever kind of thing.
Marc:Probably an unconscious vacuum of nothingness.
Marc:But who knows?
Marc:Maybe a little more exciting than that.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I doubt it, but I don't know.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So here on the ground...
Marc:My trip to Albuquerque the last few days, you know, spending time with the old man and friends I've known most of my life.
Marc:I guess I talk about this every time I make this trip.
Marc:I'm not sure that each time my observations are that much different.
Marc:But, you know, I was there with the dad, with the dementia.
Marc:And surprisingly, he's remained somewhat stable in terms of, you know, like knowing me and being able to engage, you know, pretty well, pretty well.
Marc:It does seem like his past is blurring or melding into like one big event.
Marc:Things are not in context.
Marc:There's not much of a timeline.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And many memories seem to be kind of mashed together, which makes it kind of poetic.
Marc:I swear it's still all the way you look at this.
Marc:But there is a baseline to who he is that's very intact.
Marc:And because there's not a lot of noise around it in the form of kind of cogent, consistent thinking, it's kind of easier for me to kind of look at it plainly.
Marc:And it's a bit disturbing, but it is revelatory.
Marc:Every time I see him, it kind of reveals something about who he is and was innately.
Marc:It could be a cautionary tale, though I'm getting a little old, so it's less a cautionary tale.
Marc:than enlightening because, you know, I mean, a lot of the stuff that I have found in myself that were his or of him that were negative, I've tried to kind of get a handle on it.
Marc:You know, I'm trying to I'm trying to kind of put a stop to those if I can.
Marc:I actually talk at length about this somewhat in my my upcoming special.
Marc:But it's just I don't know.
Marc:It's kind of just getting to know him on this level where it's kind of pure, you know, out of nowhere.
Marc:This was not this time.
Marc:I saw him at the last time.
Marc:I don't know if I told you this.
Marc:Out of nowhere, he just says, well, look, you got to take the consequences or make up your own.
Marc:To me, that was some sort of amazing key, some sort of amazing puzzle piece.
Marc:But but, you know, the fact that he's got no one to talk to or wants to talk to, he's got nothing he really wants to do or enjoys doing.
Marc:You know, he just he just sits there and he was always pretty heady, but he just sits there and I don't know what's floating around his head.
Marc:But, you know, you ask him, what are you doing?
Marc:He's like nothing.
Marc:You want to do anything?
Marc:Nope.
Marc:And again, this isn't just the dementia.
Marc:This is some sort of core part of his being.
Marc:And I feel that.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:But as a creative person or an impulsive person or somebody who has to put their voice out there, you know, I mean, a lot of times I've got to force myself to do it because there is a sort of like, yeah, what's the point?
Marc:What is the point?
Marc:That's the selfish part of it.
Marc:The point is engaging with others.
Marc:And I wish he was talking more to people.
Marc:I mean, it was kind of good this time because, you know, when I'm around, he's impressed with me.
Marc:He appreciates my mind.
Marc:He appreciates my life.
Marc:You know, he's kind of surrendered to that.
Marc:Probably because of age and dementia.
Marc:Just the fact that I guess I'm kind of impressive.
Marc:So a lot of the bullshit that used to give us trouble has kind of passed us by.
Marc:And he can listen and he was responding and he has ideas.
Marc:And if he does, he'll repeat them again and again.
Marc:Like I showed him the documentary about me.
Marc:And then for three days, he's like, oh, my God, what a terrible thing happened to you.
Marc:Why'd that lady have to die?
Marc:Just terrible.
Marc:Jesus, Mark, so many terrible things have happened to you.
Marc:That guy repeated a lot, which isn't great.
Marc:But, you know, he was remembering at least.
Marc:And sometimes there's something about some parents, and my dad in particular, that no matter how proud he is of me or what I've done with my life, there's some part of him that thinks he's got suggestions.
Marc:And they're not really career suggestions.
Marc:You know, just out of nowhere he said, you know, you should start a company.
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:I don't know if there was more to it than that.
Marc:I don't know what kind of company that would be.
Marc:He feels like I should build my own theater.
Marc:And he still hangs on to that.
Marc:That's an old idea.
Marc:You should have your own place for this stuff.
Marc:And then he got very preoccupied with getting the documentary out there.
Marc:You doing everything you can to make this thing get out there?
Marc:You doing everything you can?
Marc:It's like, it's too much.
Marc:But he's gotten pretty soft.
Marc:And he's all, you know...
Marc:Pretty fragile, pretty vulnerable.
Marc:And even with all the other stuff that I'm noticing, I'm glad that I have this time with them and that I take advantage of that.
Marc:So I'm very excited that Mariska Hargitay is here.
Marc:This HBO documentary she directed, My Mom Jane, is streaming on Max, and it's really great.
Marc:It really is great.
Marc:It's quite a life here.
Marc:And she found something out and kind of moved through it with her family.
Marc:It's just great.
Marc:And this is me and Mariska talking.
Marc:So you read the article about my show.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I read it with such understanding and perspective because there's been so many times when I thought that exact same thing.
Marc:Well, yeah, I think it's just a matter of...
Marc:And I'm sure you've dealt with this on many levels that, you know, who are you without it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I mean, it's not so much an identity thing, but it is sort of like too much time to think like, you know, are you ever going to like, I don't really know what's going to happen.
Marc:Without this thing, because it's a big part of my social life, in the sense that I talk to people twice a week, and they're pretty thorough and deep conversations, some of them.
Marc:So there's that.
Guest:That's what resonated with me the most, is the deep conversations, because I thought...
Guest:Sorry to interrupt.
Guest:No, you go ahead.
Guest:When I read... When I listened to your podcast with your ex-girlfriend, Moon.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It was a crazy one.
Guest:Do you know her?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Oh, oh.
Guest:But I was on a plane and I was listening to it and I thought...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Where's that?
Marc:Well, yeah, it's interesting.
Marc:Well, with her, there was nowhere else to go.
Marc:I mean, you know, it was all very surprising because, you know, we had been through some stuff and we never really talked about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was a yeah.
Marc:I mean, she she's an astronaut of that stuff.
Marc:She'll go there.
Guest:She lives there.
Marc:But I think that was a unique one.
Marc:But all of them seem to be connected.
Marc:It's a very odd thing because I talk to people.
Marc:And then after I talk to people here, I'm always like, are we going to be friends?
Marc:I get that.
Guest:I'm like that.
Marc:Yeah, really?
Guest:Very much so.
Guest:So much so that I thought, maybe that's what I need to do next is a podcast.
Guest:Yeah, well, just because I like going in and getting in there.
Marc:Yeah, jump on board.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe I should take over for you.
Marc:Yeah, you want to just come here and do it?
Marc:Yeah, I watched a doc, you know.
Marc:Yeah, of course I did.
Marc:It was like great.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The whole thing is crazy.
Marc:And how you put it, and like it's taken you this long to put it all together.
Guest:I feel, truly feel like I've been preparing for this moment for my entire life.
Marc:To put the doc together.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, you're real showbiz.
Marc:No, I've got the real deal, like pedigree and everything.
Marc:But it's true.
Marc:It's kind of amazing how much about your mother that I didn't know.
Marc:It's not my time.
Marc:It wasn't your time.
Marc:Nope.
Marc:And you really don't realize her position anymore.
Marc:in culture and in show business and kind of what she went through and then like being the legacy of that but not having any relationship with her.
Marc:It's just what was it like to like get in there and really research her?
Marc:How did you even do that?
Yeah.
Guest:I just jumped in.
Guest:I've been... My best friend always says about me, I'm the kind of person that's ready, shoot, aim.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I just... If I'm going to do it, I just do it.
Guest:I go.
Marc:That's how... From early on, though, you knew she was your mom, right?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And, you know, it seemed like when you discussed it that you had mixed feelings about it as you got old enough to understand.
Guest:Well, not only mixed feelings, I...
Guest:As I say, I separated myself.
Guest:That's why it's funny you hear the, you know, you said your pedigree.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I grew up.
Guest:You said.
Guest:Did I say it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, you know, I'm getting older.
Guest:I can't remember who said what.
Guest:But I grew up in such a non-showbiz environment.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My stepmother was a flight attendant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My dad was a builder.
Marc:Mickey?
Guest:Mickey.
Marc:Mickey?
Marc:He built houses.
Marc:I just talked to somebody who used to go to his plant store.
Guest:No, that's my brother.
Marc:Oh, that's your brother.
Guest:That's my brother.
Marc:Okay, so he's still got that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the point is, is that we had such a normal existence.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And...
Guest:very much away from Hollywood, even though we lived, you know, we lived up in the bird streets and up Doheny and stuff.
Guest:But we never, we just didn't have showbiz friends.
Guest:My parents weren't really friends with actors or producers or writers in the business, really.
Guest:And so I just had a very normal existence.
Marc:But wasn't it kind of hanging over you?
Guest:It was.
Guest:Very much so hanging over me.
Guest:I mean, this icon hanging over me that I really wanted no part of.
Guest:Why do you think that?
Guest:I was...
Guest:I just think it was too much.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I just, it was embarrassing.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, like... The sex symbol part of it, you have to understand, I went to St.
Guest:Paul the Apostle grade school, and then I went to Marymount High School, and... Catholic schools?
Guest:My whole life.
Guest:Very much Catholic.
Guest:Very much.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Guest:And so it was just too much.
Guest:And I wanted – it's a very interesting dichotomy because I grew up with this, like, longing, right, to look like my mother or have a normal mother or have somebody – you know, in my school we had, like, mother-daughter things.
Guest:And in my – even high school we had, you know, father-daughter things.
Marc:So it was just sort of like an absence.
Guest:Always.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This –
Guest:This absence, this longing.
Marc:And then when it was defined in photographs and films and in culture, you know, the absence that represented your mother was something you didn't want to have anything to do with.
Marc:That what was absent was offensive to you somehow.
Guest:A little bit, yeah.
Marc:Hmm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And— So I very much identified with my father.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I wanted to be like him in every way.
Guest:Mickey.
Guest:Very much so.
Guest:He was— Solid guy.
Guest:Solid as a rock—
Guest:Committed human, focused, determined.
Guest:Anything in his life he set out to do, he did it.
Guest:Athlete, champion mentality.
Marc:Well, he was like a very – I mean, he was sort of in show business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was – started out – you know, he did a lot of like B –
Guest:Westerns in, you know, Rome and stuff like that.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Little things, you know, here and there.
Marc:Like the Spaghetti Western.
Guest:The Spaghetti Western.
Marc:And wasn't he a big bodybuilder before bodybuilding was happening?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if it was before bodybuilding, but when he came over to America, he went to Indiana and found he was so enamored with...
Guest:weightlifting and bodybuilding.
Guest:And then he said, I want to try it.
Guest:And they said, you're too old.
Guest:And he said, you're too old.
Guest:And then he went on to become, you know, Mr. America, Mr. America, Mr. World, and then Mr. Universe in 1955.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:And then like, okay, so when do you start to...
Marc:At what point did you know that you were in the car with Jane Mansfield, your mom, when she died?
Marc:I mean, when did that make sense to you?
Guest:I don't know that there was a time.
Guest:I think I always knew it because of my scar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was just part of the lore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think that we always talked about that, you know, that we were in the car with her and we survived.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you didn't, there was no, you were three.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, of course I don't remember it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't remember any of it.
Guest:Not here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In your body.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've had a whole journey with that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Specifically, like did you do EMDR and stuff?
Guest:I did EMDR.
Guest:I've done a lot of things.
Guest:I've done a lot of trauma work, and I've done something called somatic reprocessing.
Marc:How does that work?
Guest:Oh, it's amazing, actually.
Guest:It's a thing called internal family systems, and there's a guy named Richard Shorts, but there's several amazing therapists that do this work, and basically...
Guest:It is a process where you learn to listen to your body and you let it speak to you and you understand the parts of yourself.
Guest:I remember being in therapy one time and going on and on about how great things are.
Guest:At the end of the session, I was talking about all this great stuff.
Guest:I just went from that to...
Guest:Then why do I feel like such a loser?
Marc:A loser, yeah.
Guest:And then she said, well, that sounds like it's another part talking.
Guest:And I sort of went, what?
Guest:Or there was times when I'd be in therapy and all of a sudden I –
Guest:would almost fall asleep.
Guest:I would say, I'm sorry, I'm so tired.
Guest:I'm not a great sleeper.
Guest:And I said, I didn't sleep well last night.
Guest:And I just, you know, I don't sleep well and I'm really tired.
Guest:And I was, and then she'd go, no, I think that's your sleepy part.
Guest:And at first you're like, excuse me, my sleepy part.
Guest:But then every time we would talk or get close to something, it was almost like a narcoleptic where I would, and I have a lot of energy, as you can see, I would all of a sudden be just zero to 60, like,
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I would feel like I was going to fall asleep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, she explained to me that it was a part of myself that was protecting.
Guest:So when I started having all these physical things happening, it was very clear that we are so complicated.
Guest:And when you say to somebody, like, part of me totally understands what he did, but the other part of me wants to kill him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, those are real parts.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Honoring that and understanding myself and understanding how important integration is.
Guest:And it was life-changing.
Marc:To integrate.
Guest:The different parts of yourself.
Marc:And also to bring the trauma into the present so it's not re-triggered in an unidentifiable way.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But also not live in these extremes.
Guest:But we have to live in the gray.
Guest:You can't like, I'm the greatest person in the world.
Guest:I'm a total loser.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Marc:I can do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And you should.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:And you should.
Guest:It's part of my job.
Guest:But for me, not so much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but when you just learn, like, I'm this person and I've had this trauma and sometimes I'm, you know, good at my job and I do great things and I'm a great friend and a great mom and a great wife.
Guest:And then other times, like, not so much.
Guest:And I'm just a regular person.
Guest:And so once you sort of go, oh, comfortable there, like right in the middle, like right in the gray, life starts to get...
Guest:more peaceful, and we have more internal space.
Guest:And so that's what this... Integration.
Guest:Integration is everything.
Guest:In the somatic field.
Guest:And that really just changed my life in such a big way, as did the making of this film.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, like, so, like, it would kind of manifest itself as exhaustion or a blank spot.
Right.
Guest:Or, for example, I don't like being in tight places or being trapped.
Guest:I don't do well being trapped.
Guest:And, you know, those are things that now I can –
Guest:reason with myself or talk to those parts of myself or just have the space i like to liken these parts like little children right that need a little attention well yeah and that's all it is you just go i hear you i'm with you i have room for you yeah and you know what i'm okay now you're good you don't have to like panic yeah you got a self-parent yes and if as soon as you give like a kid yeah as soon as you honor what they're saying
Guest:And that is, if I could give one thing to the world or people that have experienced trauma, that's what I would offer.
Marc:And I guess that on some level, because it kind of comes full circle in the documentary, that the fact that, you know, that Mickey...
Marc:You know, just showed up like you had a family.
Marc:Oh, yes.
Marc:And and it was it was grounded.
Marc:And, you know, this this thing was going to be in your pre-memory, you know, so you didn't have, you know, because it seems like in another situation, psychologically, you could have been really hobbled, you know, for a long time if you didn't have the family and the support, you know, after that loss.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I had the family and the support.
Guest:And these siblings.
Marc:You had all these older siblings.
Guest:How great are they?
Guest:They're great.
Guest:No, but aren't you in love with every single one of them because I am.
Marc:On both sides.
Marc:I'm trying to identify them all.
Guest:There's my older sister, Jane.
Marc:Who's from Jane's first marriage.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Then there's Mickey, my older brother, who owns the plant shop.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Then there's Zoli.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then my next brother, who was sort of the heart and who carried the trauma and sort of walked us through what happened.
Marc:And Mickey's his dad, too.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then there's another one.
Guest:Then there's my little brother, Tony, the one who said, he's the one with the blue eyes and the blonde hair who said, I don't want to carry it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Remember?
Marc:He's not that much.
Marc:He's only in it for a few beats.
Guest:Yes, because he and I did not grow up together.
Guest:He, after my mom died, went to live with his father.
Marc:What's that guy's name?
Guest:Matt Simber.
Marc:Yeah, I think I played him in a show, kind of.
Marc:The show Glow, The Gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling.
Guest:Oh, that's funny.
Guest:Six degrees, baby.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That's crazy.
Marc:Yeah, it was kind of a bunch of different characters, but he was at the beginning of that.
Marc:He was the guy that made Glow, the original Glow.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I never saw that.
Marc:It was on Netflix.
Marc:It was pretty funny.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:It was kind of a sweet show.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:It was on for a few seasons.
Marc:But I realized that it was – because I played a kind of down-and-out filmmaker who was brought in to manage and direct this gorgeous Ladies of Wrestling.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, well, they live – he lives in Las Vegas.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So – Are you close with him, though?
Guest:You know, it's interesting.
Guest:He's my brother and I love him so much.
Guest:And we both love each other.
Guest:And we didn't grow up.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And we're, you know, we see some things differently.
Guest:But, I mean, we're not close like Mickey and Zoli because I wasn't raised with him.
Guest:We don't have shared perspective.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:At all.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like he said in the movie, you know, he didn't feel very connected to my mom and stuff.
Guest:But, yeah, I love him.
Guest:He loves me, and he's the sweetest.
Guest:So how old was he when he was, like, one?
Guest:He was one and not in the car with us.
Marc:Right, and they were done.
Marc:So all three of you were in the back.
Guest:Mickey's only in me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, in moving through this story, when you started acting, you were very young.
Guest:Yeah, when I started acting, I was in high school.
Guest:And I went to, as I said, all girls private Catholic school.
Guest:And it's such a beautiful story.
Guest:So I was more of like an athlete.
Guest:I was on the swim team and cross country.
Guest:And then my English teacher, who was a nun, Sister Margaret, suggested to me that she thought...
Guest:That I should try out for a play because I was chatty and I was extroverted.
Guest:And she was like, how can I channel this?
Guest:And so she said, Mariska, I think you should – Maria, rather.
Guest:I was Maria in high school.
Guest:I think you should try out for the play.
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:And I –
Guest:It was a French farce called Salad Days.
Guest:And I had a blast.
Guest:And then my senior year, I tried out for the play again.
Guest:And it was a serious straight play called Women's Work.
Guest:And that's when I fell in love with it.
Guest:And that's when I decided to apply to SC and UCLA.
Guest:I ended up going to UCLA and became a theater major.
Marc:It's so crazy.
Guest:It's so crazy because before that, zero interest in being an actor.
Guest:And I mean zero.
Guest:If you would have asked me, I wanted to be a French diplomat because we traveled so much as a family, and I loved languages, and I wanted to...
Guest:connect people and I wanted to I also thought about being an interpreter and again connecting people and then I found acting and fell in love with telling stories but it's like it's like it's genetic yeah
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:It really is.
Marc:I mean, because, you know, there are certain families of actors.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like the Baldwins and Skarsgård.
Marc:Fondas.
Marc:Yeah, the Fondas and the Barrymores.
Marc:But there is something, like, I can't really put my finger on it, but there is something about someone's ability to hold the screen.
Guest:To hold the screen.
Guest:But also to need to do it, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember my acting teachers were like, if you don't need to act, if you don't need to do it, don't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember that really resonated with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it is so hard.
Guest:And it's so hard to begin.
Guest:And there's so much rejection.
Guest:It's so much that if you don't need it.
Guest:And sometimes it's boring and horrible.
Yeah.
Guest:Beyond.
Guest:Beyond.
Guest:All that trailer time?
Guest:I mean, who can handle that?
Guest:I mean, come on.
Guest:I got shit to do.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:But, you know, the thing is about the trailer time, you can be very— Yeah, if you can.
Guest:I'm very, like— You are?
Guest:I multitask.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, I can get a lot done.
Marc:I choose to, like, go look at food.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And then be like, what the fuck is happening out there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How long could this take?
I don't know.
Guest:I was called in here at 6.
Guest:It's 3.30, and I haven't worked yet.
Guest:What are they doing?
Guest:But I'll tell you something.
Guest:After being on a show for this long, since the early— You're like the longest-running character on any show ever.
Guest:Isn't it crazy?
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:No, it's so nuts.
Guest:And you were saying that at the beginning because your big decision to take a break or step away, and I was thinking, I can't remember what year it was.
Guest:I think it was year—
Guest:23 or 24, I was at a party and I was talking to my friend, Julianna Margulies.
Guest:And she said, so what are you doing?
Guest:And I said, I think I'm done.
Guest:This was season 23 going into 24.
Guest:She goes, I said, I think I'm done.
Guest:And she goes, why?
Guest:And I said, well, I just don't want to be.
Guest:a one trick pony.
Guest:And she looked at me and she goes, well, Mariska, I think that ship sailed.
Guest:And we had such a laugh.
Guest:She goes, you might as well go until 25.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we had such a laugh about that because, but now I'm so, I mean, I have been, I'm just so in love with this show and what it does and how it affects people.
Guest:And for me, like,
Guest:I get to go deeper every year.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And find new stuff and work with new actors.
Marc:As you find it in yourself as well.
Guest:As you find it in yourself.
Marc:I mean, everything changes.
Guest:And now, after this film, I feel so...
Guest:different or new and I have all this new space, I kind of can't wait to see what I do on SVU next year.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I mean, you know, look, as we grow and also I think you keep growing as an actor and I think that, you know, part of the...
Marc:maintaining engagement with it is that you can make different choices.
Marc:And that's the only thing you really have control over as an actor.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Is that like if you have more depth, then you have more tools.
Marc:And then there's a challenge to see if you can go there.
Guest:Which is so exciting.
Guest:I remember one of my favorite directions I've ever gotten in my career.
Guest:I mean, and there's been several because I've obviously had the pleasure of working with so many amazing directors.
Guest:But one time I was doing a scene and Tom DiCillo was...
Guest:And he asked me to do something that felt so foreign to me.
Guest:I said, Tom, that's not really my character.
Guest:I just feel like it's opposite.
Guest:And he says to me, Mariska, but what if she did that today?
Guest:And it was like... Because...
Guest:I'm Mariska, but I do a lot of uncharacteristic stuff all the time.
Guest:And in the character of Olivia Benson, I was like, this is how it is.
Guest:And then I'm like, we all have bad days.
Guest:We all have days where we're like, I'm out.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:I don't care.
Guest:And it was so expansive.
Guest:The direction was such a gift.
Guest:And so now I really entertain anything.
Guest:And then you just figure out why that's happening today.
Guest:But I love that because it gives you permission to go into different arenas.
Guest:So anyway, that's very exciting.
Marc:And not be predictable.
Guest:Which is, you know, the enemy of all creativity.
Marc:Well, yeah, but that's also why anyone wants to stop anything.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And when I say, exactly.
Guest:And when I say, like, people go, what's your goal today?
Guest:I said, to surprise myself.
Guest:Yeah, please.
Marc:Surprise myself.
Marc:Please, God.
Marc:Please, God, help me surprise myself.
Marc:So when you start doing this in high school, that has to be where you take into consideration your mother.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, like when you start acting, when you realize like, I want to do this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have to assume that whatever sort of resentments or wherever you had her in your mind, it must have shifted a little.
Guest:No, it wasn't that linear.
Marc:No?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:You just thought I'm just going to be an actor?
Marc:You didn't connect it with her?
Guest:No, of course.
Guest:No, I'm sorry.
Guest:Maybe I didn't understand the question.
Guest:No, I wanted to do it, and I loved acting, and I felt a connection there of what she loved, what I loved, what is this thing.
Guest:But then I think that's when I decided that I...
Guest:Wanted to do it differently.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's when I sort of went, I'm going to be serious and not, you know, a sex symbol and sort of steered away from that kind of thing.
Guest:Well, you know... It was like comedy.
Guest:I want to do comedy.
Guest:I'm funny.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But, I mean, the whole idea of a sex symbol changed a lot, too, since she was around.
Marc:That is true.
Marc:I mean, that was...
Marc:It seemed that when Jay Mansfield was around that, you know, sex symbol was part of most of the job for a certain type of actor who was stunning, you know, is that you're going to be maneuvered that way.
Marc:And I have to assume that when you were doing the doc, that, you know, to find your mother's, you know, struggle, you know, towards the end, you know, must have been kind of devastating.
Guest:Utterly devastating.
Guest:I mean, it's heartbreaking.
Guest:Devastating with how women were treated.
Guest:How women were put into a box.
Guest:How women were, how she was, dismissed.
Guest:I mean, you see in the film, and that is what, that has been the gift of this movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To understand what she went through and how much, it was like,
Guest:God just sprinkled archival on me that I couldn't believe the gems that I found that I had no idea.
Marc:How'd you find all that stuff?
Marc:Because, like, she was an innately talented person with a fairly broad, you know, potential that was, you know, packaged as sort of a Marilyn-esque person, but obviously had her own thing that was, you know, even bigger than Marilyn in a way.
Guest:In a way, yes.
Marc:Very much so.
Marc:In terms of her impact, you know, because Marilyn, you know, she like the struggle of both of them, like of Marilyn being sort of, you know, taken seriously in the face of her glamour and her beauty.
Marc:And I don't think, you know, it seemed like Marilyn had a little more opportunity to do that than Jane.
Guest:But being put in a box when you're in your early 20s and not knowing that there are options.
Guest:And I think about my own career and I think about when I started out, when I would walk into a room in a casting office and they'd go, oh, I was expecting a blonde.
Guest:And I'd be like...
Guest:Well, I guess you were wrong.
Guest:Or, you know, walking in and having people go, you need to change your name.
Guest:And I'd say, you change your name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or they'd say, you need to get a nose job.
Guest:And I go, you get a nose job.
Guest:That all happened?
Guest:All of it.
Guest:And it was so great because my dad and because everything he told me about what happened to her, I wasn't having it.
Guest:And I had learned young, don't put me in a box.
Yeah.
Guest:Don't even try to put me in a box.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so that was my sort of superpower is when they did, I was like, you know, that's not happening.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But also because of that, you know, you had reasonable expectations in terms of, you know, because somebody like Jay Mansfield, it's like so many people are trying to run money through her.
Yeah.
Marc:And they were not going to embrace anything that she wanted to do to expand her potential.
Marc:It's like, this is how you make money.
Marc:Period.
Marc:It's bordering on prostitution.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And originally, they were...
Guest:sort of building her up and creating a star to keep Marilyn in line.
Guest:But they were like, this is the box, this is where you fit, do this or you're done.
Guest:That's what they did to her.
Guest:So now I understand that.
Guest:That's what the gift of this film has been is to, and really reclamation of reclaiming her, understanding so many parts of her and understanding what she was dealing with culturally and the times and,
Guest:in her family and also for me because i spent so much time with my grandmother yes understanding the sort of you know southern social mores right oh yes yeah very strict and very uh presentational yeah which i grew up the opposite like my parents my grandmother used to tell me how to answer the phone yeah and she would give me line readings and i'm not kidding
Guest:She would say, this is what I was supposed to do.
Guest:Hello, whom I ask is calling.
Guest:One moment, please.
Guest:And I would go, why are you talking like that?
Guest:People don't talk like that.
Guest:But so if that's what she did to me, imagine how my mother was raised to be so deferential and kind and whatever anyone wanted.
Guest:That sort of presentational thing as opposed to going the way I was raised.
Guest:It's like I would argue with my dad and go, dad, I got to tell you.
Thank you.
Guest:I couldn't disagree more.
Guest:And my dad would say, tell me if I'm wrong, Rush.
Guest:Tell me.
Guest:And I go, but here's the thing.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Why?
Guest:And let's have a discussion.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's a generational thing, too.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And it's also lucky you were in California.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I mean, but also your grandmother seemed to support your mom's violin playing and everything.
Guest:My grandmother was a school teacher and she played the organ and the piano.
Guest:No, she was amazing.
Marc:Did she get to see you act?
Guest:Well, how about this story?
Guest:So my grandmother, when she moved to California, I used to go visit her every weekend.
Guest:She lived up in Ventura.
Marc:Were you guys taking care of her?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I...
Guest:had gotten ER.
Guest:I was so proud of myself.
Guest:This was hands down the biggest thing that I ever did and it was like launched my career.
Guest:And I said to her, Dan Mama, I called her, I said, I got this role on ER.
Guest:It's the number one show.
Guest:It's a big show and the best actors.
Guest:And she said, when are you going to get married and make something of yourself?
Guest:And I remember going, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:when are you going to get married and make something of yourself and then i it's sort of all i i understood it all yeah in the moment yeah and i was because my dad used to say the opposite mershka you need to find out who you are yeah and where you're going and then decide who's coming with you yeah yeah and you're not going on somebody else's ride yeah get the right people around you that kind of stuff so the messaging from my father from
Guest:My grandmother were diametrically opposed.
Marc:Well, I mean, some of that is probably generational and old thinking.
Marc:And also, like, you know, they never understand acting.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:It's frivolous.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the fact that her daughter was Jay Mansfield is crazy that she still thought that way.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But I think she really struggled with it.
Guest:She wanted her to be a musician.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, getting married didn't necessarily help her all the time.
Marc:I mean, she did it enough.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right?
Marc:But maybe that's why she kept doing it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's because that was in her head.
Guest:Right.
Guest:All of these pieces that I got to figure out, that I got, what I learned, were...
Guest:It's been the greatest gift of my life.
Guest:This is what I mean about integrating all these pieces, you know, because I had sort of exiled her and her story.
Guest:I wanted no part of it.
Guest:I was like, Dad, you're my guy.
Guest:I'm following your path.
Guest:And...
Guest:This is what I'm doing.
Guest:And so I really excise this.
Guest:So to reintegrate her and understand her and love her and go, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:And also the fact that it's tragic, you know, obviously a lot of it, you know, not just, you know, the car accident, but that, you
Marc:And you spent a lot of time putting her career into context for yourself.
Marc:But as somebody who's an entertainer, the point that she hit where just to maintain a livelihood, she had to do this nightclub act, which could not have been further from something that she wanted to do.
Guest:And five kids.
Marc:And she was a cultural icon and then she was on the other side of it and couldn't get a shot to do something different because the business wouldn't let her.
Marc:So she's relegated to being part of a nightclub act.
Marc:It's so tragic.
Marc:It's so tragic.
Marc:But I imagine on some level that the live show and that people were happy to see her.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And she was living up to their expectations and sort of a clown like way.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But I mean, that's painful for me.
Guest:But I'll tell you something.
Guest:People were happy to see her.
Guest:And out of all my research that I've done.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:All the gifts that I've gotten from, whether they be letters that people wrote me, they had an interaction, or even the books.
Guest:Everyone said, and I mean everyone said, she was so kind and so fun and loved people and loved.
Guest:children and babies and animals and so she had this like she was such a lover yeah yeah and again the kindness is what really resonates for me yeah so now after this film like before as i excised her away and said here's how we're different we're different we're different now i get to see i
Guest:This is how we're the same.
Guest:This is what I got from you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm so grateful and so proud.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's so good.
Guest:And proud of her work ethic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And proud of her determination and proud of so many aspects of her.
Guest:How about the fact she just got up from Texas and moved to L.A.?
Marc:It's all crazy.
Guest:What?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Back then?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To have that drive.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:To have that drive and go, I'm doing it.
Marc:And those two things that she was living with and how you were talking about these different parts of ourselves was the ethic of your grandmother to pursue piano.
Guest:And discipline.
Marc:And discipline.
Marc:But also this sort of like you got to find a man or you're nothing.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but she was able to leave that first man.
Marc:But I guess that just stuck in her head, the man thing.
Guest:Yeah, and needing a man.
Guest:But not just needing a man for my grandmother, but don't forget losing her father at three.
Guest:That leaves such a hole in your heart, losing her father at three.
Guest:And how do we replace that?
Guest:I will say to you, that kind of trauma...
Guest:soul injury yeah you never get over that no you never get over that and you know I know that a lot of my trauma it was very difficult for me to express because it was pre-verbal yes right so I remember feeling trapped and so was hers then right so I think about that so much and that longing and wanting a dad especially for me who I can't express to you
Guest:The love, security, and confidence that I got from my father.
Guest:Like feeling loved and knowing that's my guy and he has got me.
Marc:Solid guy.
Guest:Solid as a rock.
Marc:It's like, it's so fortunate.
Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm very aware.
Guest:Believe me.
Guest:I used to say I was reading some old interviews and I said, everything good about me is for my dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to say it all the time because I just remember him being at my swim meets.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like the investment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or doing gymnastics every night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the living room, TV room.
Yeah.
Guest:Before dinner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Teaching me how to do a back bend and a back flip and splits because he was, you know, physical champion.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And he understood that there was no no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You just do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also the fact that he was, you know, really in love with your mother.
Guest:Like nobody's business.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's so brutal.
Marc:It's just so brutal.
Guest:That kind of love.
Guest:I also feel like I found...
Guest:My soulmate and the most amazing husband because of that love.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I knew what love was.
Guest:I recognized love, how much he loved.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I feel so grateful for that.
Marc:And the heartache of it.
Marc:And also like in...
Marc:In relation to what is revealed ultimately about your life, your beginnings, that that love was big enough to include you to the point where he wouldn't hear otherwise.
Guest:Because it wasn't true to him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Didn't matter.
Marc:Didn't matter.
Guest:It didn't matter that he... But this is what I mean about his focus.
Guest:Like, there was no telling him that he was too old to become a weightlifter.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:In terms of that, and by the way, that's what it takes, I believe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To get anything done.
Guest:But I understand him now because he just proceeded as if... And now I look at it and I go...
Guest:I mean, but really.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Guest:It's insane.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Guest:And that's why I have this love to give.
Guest:That's why I wanted to share it.
Guest:That's why I want to invite people.
Guest:That's why I wanted, you know, look at it like an invitation.
Guest:That's why I was, you know, people are like, oh, the movie's so brave.
Guest:I was like, yeah, sure.
Guest:And the only way out is through.
Guest:So if we're not doing that, what are we doing?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and just the combination of the love for your mother and then, you know, the unconditional love for you, you know, it was just so big.
Marc:You know, it was like, you know, it was real and unusual.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what's fascinating is that you really didn't know.
Marc:Like in the movie, you explore your sort of feeling of a slight alienation from your siblings.
Yeah.
Guest:Or that you were— Yeah, I was going to say that's an understatement.
Guest:But yes, that's right.
Guest:And that, you know— I always felt different.
Guest:I always knew there was something different.
Guest:But I didn't know what.
Marc:And you didn't really think to pursue it until you were in your late 20s?
Marc:Because the one thing about the fucking movie that kills me is that the head of the Jane Mansfield fan club—
Marc:Is the person.
Marc:How great is that?
Marc:It's the best.
Marc:It's so perfect.
Marc:You can't write it.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But like the information was out there.
Guest:That's, you know what I say?
Guest:This is the miracle of this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel because as, as I felt in my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is my story to tell.
Guest:I feel so grateful to God and the universe that it somehow miraculously protected me and that when, again, the information was out there.
Guest:How did it not come out?
Guest:After every interview I've ever done, all I do is talk about my dad that some journalist or reporter went, well, actually, I did a little research.
Guest:There's this other piece.
Guest:And I sit there and I go, this is the gift that was given to me.
Guest:There's been so many gifts from this movie.
Marc:So the gift is that you didn't have to know about it until you were ready to know.
Guest:Yes, but also that I got to tell the story.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:That I wasn't embarrassed or humiliated and that I needed, when I did find out, that I needed to keep it private, that I needed to honor my father.
Guest:I was so worried that it would...
Guest:Embarrass him or dishonor him because of what he had said.
Marc:So when did you like not to interrupt you, but in terms of like the hiding it.
Marc:So the course of events.
Marc:Well, I think that oddly, and it's not the same culture we live in today, that enough time had passed.
Marc:Between, you know, Jane Mansfield's passing and, you know, her her cultural relevance that, you know, that information that was so important to you was sort of insulated in kind of a film nerd community.
Marc:It wasn't, you know, but you were rising as a star, too.
Marc:But, you know, yet it didn't come out because I don't know that people were as fascinated with Jane anymore.
Yeah.
Marc:So it kind of worked in your favor.
Guest:Completely.
Guest:And then all of a sudden I went, what?
Guest:This isn't my – I didn't do anything wrong.
Marc:No, but how did you – what was the moment of mind-blowing realization?
Marc:I think –
Guest:You know, it's an issue about being ready.
Guest:It was during the pandemic.
Guest:After I made my first documentary, I Am Evidence, about the backlog of untested rape kits.
Guest:And I felt... I just love the medium of documentary storytelling.
Guest:It's my personal hobby.
Guest:It's what I do when I have extra time.
Guest:And after I did that, of course, everyone said, are you going to do a doc on your mom?
Guest:Are you going to do a doc on your mom?
Guest:And I sort of went...
Guest:Nope.
Guest:And then during the pandemic, that was in 2017.
Guest:And then during the pandemic, here I was at my house.
Guest:And as everyone did, I cleaned the basement and cleaned out everything.
Guest:And I found these boxes of letters that were written to me, fan letters that were written to me about my mom, about people sharing a story about her, about saying, I knew your mom.
Marc:And you hadn't read them?
No.
Guest:I used to get these letters and put them in a box.
Marc:Well, you kept them.
Guest:I certainly did.
Guest:So once I read them and I started getting these pieces of information, it was one of these things where I like went, I'm ready.
Guest:I'm ready.
Marc:But you had known since you were like 30.
Guest:Oh, I knew at 25.
Guest:At 25 is when Saban.
Marc:The fan club guy?
Yeah.
Guest:Who said, do you want to see a picture of Nelson?
Guest:And then at 30 is when my friend, who I went to UCLA with, my good friend, said, I got two tickets to Atlantic City.
Marc:Where Nelson, what's his last name again?
Guest:Sardelli.
Marc:He was playing.
Marc:Now, the assumption at that time when you were 25 was, I think you should look into this because I think this is your dad.
Right.
Guest:Your biological death.
Guest:Well, I knew it was.
Marc:At 25.
Guest:Second, I saw his picture.
Marc:I knew.
Guest:On a cellular level, I knew.
Marc:And that's at 25.
Marc:At 25.
Guest:And then I sat with it.
Guest:I didn't know anything about him.
Guest:And then I just sat with it for five years and had my own breakdown and identity crisis.
Marc:What did that look like?
Guest:Not good.
Guest:I felt like untethered.
Guest:I was lied to.
Guest:I was angry.
Guest:I was...
Guest:It would bring too much pain on the rest of my family.
Guest:And when I, as I do in the movie, I went and told my dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And confronted him.
Guest:And he denied it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I saw that he was more upset than I was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And more.
Guest:So I just, out of my love for him, said, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I never spoke of it again.
Guest:But it lived in me.
Guest:And then.
Marc:When you went to go see him.
Guest:My boyfriend at the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hired a private investigator.
And found him.
Guest:Because what I was really interested in.
Guest:Stardelli.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But what I was really interested in was whether or not I had sisters.
Guest:That's all I cared about.
Marc:Well, this is after.
Marc:So you went to go see him in Atlantic City.
Guest:But I had heard from the private investigator.
Marc:Oh, that was then.
Guest:That he was an entertainer in Vegas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also worked in Atlantic City.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I had two sisters.
Guest:So I was like.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And then I went to Atlantic City.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I met him.
Guest:And I, you know, it was my favorite moment where I said, he came out and I said, Hi, Nelson.
Guest:My name is Mariska Hargitay.
Guest:I understand you knew my mother.
Guest:And he just looked at me with like,
Guest:awe shock and awe and disbelief and like a miracle had just transpired and something that I didn't say in the film that I remembered after which is so beautiful is the first thing he said is how's your father Mickey Hargitay is he okay the first thing he asked was about my father
Guest:And I wish I'd put that in the film, but I didn't remember it until later.
Guest:And then he, you know, as I say, he grabbed my ear and he just started crying.
Guest:And then we went to a diner and we stayed up till five in the morning and talked and he told me everything.
Guest:And that's when I said to him, let me explain something to you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a father.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't want anything from you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't want a father.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have one.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So just be clear.
Guest:This was just about curiosity.
Guest:And you made your choice, and it was the right one, and we're good.
Guest:I just want to meet my sisters.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I want my sisters.
Marc:Did you know at that time the depth of this choice?
Marc:No.
No.
Marc:You know, because I don't know when you did that interview with him.
Guest:That was the first interview that I did for the film.
Guest:How about that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was either May or June.
Marc:Yeah.
Of 2023.
Marc:So, so recently.
Marc:God, you're so lucky he was alive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did that interview and that was my first one.
Guest:And it was like... And so I got to ask him all those questions.
Marc:Well, I mean, just...
Marc:The weight, like the weight of the two heartbreaks, you know, the never ending heartbreaks of Mickey and Nelson.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So you're never ending heartbreaks of Mickey and Nelson.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Marc:That, you know, Mickey, you know, stepped up and compartmentalized it to the point where it didn't matter.
Guest:No, it was like denial.
Guest:Compartmentalized to the place of denial and Nelson's.
Guest:guilt and self.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Can you imagine that?
Guest:And he has two, three beautiful daughters, and so he...
Guest:But that choice.
Guest:The weight.
Marc:The choice of like, you know, look, she'd just been through this thing.
Marc:She was in a car.
Marc:Her mother was killed.
Marc:And, you know, what am I going to do now?
Marc:She has a family.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Like to live with that and not step up to confuse your life?
Guest:I can't even comprehend that decision.
Marc:It's crazy, but it's beautiful.
Marc:It was the right thing.
Guest:That's the beauty of this film.
Guest:And I lived my whole life thinking, he didn't claim me.
Guest:He didn't know about me.
Guest:He didn't care.
Guest:How does he not care?
Guest:I couldn't comprehend why he didn't care.
Guest:So I felt unloved, unclaimed, unimportant, and like a mistake that he was ashamed of.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:That's what I felt.
Guest:And it was a hard way to live, I'll tell you.
Guest:It was just a hard, sad way to live.
Marc:From 25 on.
Marc:And then it's like fortuitous that that was the first interview because it reframed the whole project for you.
Guest:The whole thing.
Guest:And the project has been gift after gift after gift after gift with all my siblings.
Guest:Everyone that I interviewed.
Guest:And one of the most beautiful things about this film, this experience.
Guest:I mean, listen, I'm not going to lie.
Guest:It was a bumpy ride, obviously.
Guest:This is anything.
Guest:Two things can be true at once.
Guest:And it was painful.
Guest:But...
Guest:One of the things that was so beautiful was when I flew to L.A.
Guest:and I went to my family, each one of them, and I met with them and I asked them for their blessing to make this film.
Guest:And then I asked my stepmother, Ellen, who raised me.
Guest:And obviously she had reservations and concerns.
Guest:But what's so beautiful is that she and I have gotten so close.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In this process, she was so generous, so kind, didn't hang on to anything, just said, gave me carte blanche in the house, said, I'll answer anything.
Guest:Photos, files, everything.
Guest:I mean, it was...
Guest:Such a bonding thing that here you go to your stepmother, you say, I want to make a movie about this person that even she couldn't get away from, this icon, this legend.
Guest:It's hard when you're married to somebody and then their love was...
Marc:She knew.
Guest:She knew.
Guest:And she had room for it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it's pretty magnificent.
Guest:So I just give her so much credit and I'm so grateful to her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For so much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But also the gift that she gave me while I made this film.
Marc:It's beautiful.
Guest:It's stunning.
Marc:And also it's crazy that your grandmother knew.
Guest:all along how about i'm all you have yeah who says that to a 12 year old yeah but you didn't know the meaning of that no but i knew it wasn't good very perceptive kid i was like what the sam hill she meant family yes but she looked at me like i said and she goes i was talking about my dad my dad is my life my dad my dad my dad and she goes
Guest:I'm all you have.
Guest:And maybe a couple of Rob Roy's in, if you know what I mean.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But ultimately, you did have your brothers.
Marc:You did have your father.
Marc:I mean, you did.
Guest:I think she meant as a parent.
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Because in the summers, as I say in the movie, we would go to Europe every summer.
Guest:And then there was always like two weeks or three weeks when I'd have to go to Colorado or Texas.
Guest:And when my brothers didn't come and I went...
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just felt so isolated.
Guest:Like, do my parents not like me?
Guest:Like, they want to be alone with the boys?
Marc:Why would they... But that's weird because they were still her grandkids.
Guest:I know that she liked me the best.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She really did.
Guest:The boys were too hyper for her.
Marc:You know, it's also weird in thinking about the film is that, like...
Marc:Like, I believe, and you found that footage of Nelson Sardelli on Ed Sullivan, like, you know.
Marc:How great is that?
Marc:It's great because, like, you know, he was, you know.
Guest:Was it Ed Sullivan or Mike Douglas?
Marc:Oh, maybe it was Mike Douglas.
Marc:Yeah, but either way, you know, he was, you know, in the world of that second tier of entertainers that were everywhere, that were working, that were, you know, they may not have gotten the life they wanted, but they were, you know.
Marc:Entertainers, and they worked.
Guest:And how gorgeous is his voice?
Marc:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:He's major.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That man can sing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like the one other thing about the movie and you capturing that relationship through archival moments is I think your mom had a great time.
Guest:Without a doubt.
Guest:Without a doubt.
Guest:How about, Nelson and I, how about that I look more like him than his other daughters?
Guest:That's the joke.
Guest:I look exactly like him.
Yeah.
Marc:But also here you look like your mom a lot.
Guest:Yes, I know I look like your mom.
Guest:I'm a perfect mixture.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was like it was so profound, you know, that you could find this true kind of like tragic but elevating human story.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Because when he is able to release to you the reason why he made the choice he did—
Marc:And all he could do was wait for you to find him, really.
Guest:That's all he could do, which was the most loving act.
Guest:And that's why this movie is like, I understand every single person's point of view.
Guest:And that's what I wanted, to sort of show the three-dimensionality of each person, their feelings, the complexity of the decisions that they made.
Guest:And then...
Guest:Knowing that makes me—it just healed my heart.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It just healed my heart.
Marc:I think it healed mine.
Guest:Oh, thank you, Mark.
Guest:I hope that, by the way.
Guest:I hope that.
Guest:I hope—I so hope that is my wish for the movie because I believe that—
Guest:There's such universality comes from the specific, right?
Guest:So this is a movie about my mom and my family.
Guest:But I hope that it resonates with everyone.
Guest:And I think that it will because you leave there just thinking about your own family.
Marc:But also you leave there like realizing like, okay, if you think about this story happening in the culture we live in today, that, you know, the possibility of that being framed as something sorted and something, you know, clickbait worthy.
Marc:Well, tabloids were around then.
Marc:But, I mean, you got so lucky, you know, because that could have polluted your whole perception of the thing and made your own sense of self even more damaged.
Marc:And it didn't.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But I also thought that I was from like a –
Guest:You know, going to Catholic school.
Guest:I thought I was from, like, a dirty affair.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And now I've learned they loved each other.
Guest:It seems that way.
Guest:Like, I came from love.
Guest:I came from love.
Marc:And you brought up in love, too.
Marc:I was brought up in love.
Marc:It was just so lucky.
Marc:But, like, you know—
Marc:I think my point is that it's so easy to minimize something like, oh, she's the out-of-wedlock child.
Marc:To make it sorted is so easy and so lazy and so destructive that the nuances of this situation, which you sought to find, were insanely human and incredibly difficult.
Marc:But it's so fortunate it wasn't –
Guest:And you saying that is so right on because I spoke to a few people, some business people, some older people, and I told them about it.
Guest:And they go, oh, no, don't do that.
Guest:Don't tell that story.
Guest:And this one guy who loves me and is a very smart guy, but he goes, yeah, I don't want people to see you like that.
Guest:That's what he said.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:A child out of wedlock, whatever.
Guest:And that's when I said, oh, you don't get it.
Guest:You don't get it.
Guest:And it was so – I left.
Guest:We had dinner, and he said that to me.
Guest:And he's very protective of me, he thought.
Guest:I mean, he was.
Guest:But he just didn't get it.
Guest:And I went, guess what?
Guest:You're who I'm making the film for.
Guest:You are who I'm making the film for.
Guest:So you'll go –
Marc:Did he?
Guest:He hasn't seen it yet.
Guest:He's Kelby there, though.
Guest:And I know that's what he'll do.
Guest:Actually, he doesn't have feelings, so he might not.
Guest:But anyway.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm telling you, man.
Marc:Like, you know, when Nilsson Sardelli tells you why...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's fucking crazy.
Guest:And how about Nelson Sardelli waiting for 30 years out of respect for me?
Guest:And by the way, I know that people called him.
Guest:I know that there were people trying to call and get this story.
Guest:And he said, no comment.
Guest:And he honored me and my dad.
Guest:And that's why in that movie when he has that total Sicilian mafia moment, he goes, I will never embarrass you.
Guest:Never.
Guest:And I went, oh, I'm going to cast him as like a mafia king on SVU.
Guest:But it was so, I love that I'm Sicilian.
Guest:I think that helps me play Olivia Benson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm serious.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:Because when I go there and I'm like, where did that come from?
Guest:I got it.
Guest:But the fact that he honored me and my dad in that way is such an act of loving and generosity.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:And that my sisters, my sisters lived with the secret.
Guest:My sisters.
Guest:That's not fun being a secret.
Guest:His daughters.
Guest:His daughters.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But can you imagine they were like, OK, these are the rules.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It is kind of profound that it went on that he waited until you eventually found out or was ready.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because we both knew early on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We knew.
Marc:And certainly it didn't make your life any easier.
Marc:But geez, the relief of resolution and the burden lifted to get that piece of information.
Marc:Is he still around still?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:He's around.
Guest:And we were texting yesterday because he checked in with me.
Guest:He goes, how do you feel?
Guest:How do you feel now that it's out?
Guest:I had asked him.
Guest:How he feels now that it's out, because everyone's, you know, calling him and texting him and, you know, news journalists, everybody wants to interview him.
Guest:And he said, I feel great.
Guest:How do you feel?
Guest:He said.
Guest:And I said, well, I wrote back to him.
Guest:Some things are worth the wait.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also the weight, W-E-I-G-H-T.
Guest:And it sort of was like the whole thing.
Guest:Both weights.
Guest:They were worth it.
Guest:And now he and I have this such beautiful love that he's proven to me.
Guest:Through the truth, through telling his story.
Guest:And now we obviously have this biological connection.
Guest:But he, it's so profound to me what he did and what he sacrificed.
Guest:As a parent, I can't imagine.
Guest:I can't imagine making that choice for someone, you know, it's so hard and, and he did the right thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Such a specific and heightened circumstance, you know, so heightened.
Guest:So it was a, quite a noble, uh, uh, act of love.
Guest:And I, everything has been reframed.
Guest:Everything has been reframed for me.
Marc:And after all this work, uh,
Marc:you know, through the movie and through, you know, your personal experience.
Marc:I mean, do you, you know, what is the most difficult, it would seem to me that the most difficult thing to really kind of wrap your brain around is Mickey's position till the death.
Guest:No, because I understand him.
Guest:And I'm grateful for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was his,
Guest:What's the word?
Guest:Like he solemnly swore, he made an oath to me and to himself.
Guest:And to me, I get it.
Guest:That's who he was.
Guest:And I know that he's looking down at me going, we're good.
Guest:And that's why I wanted to make a love letter to him with this movie.
Guest:And that's what I think it is.
Marc:I think that is true.
Marc:I guess, like, for me, I'm just, I'm wondering about, you know, because, you know, the commitment that both these men made to themselves was a lifelong commitment.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, in honor of you.
Marc:It's staggering.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:And, you know, Mickey's decision to take it to the grave is kind of, you know, I know you understand it and I understand it.
Marc:And I guess that for a guy like that, there was no other way.
Yeah.
Guest:And you know what the irony is?
Guest:Is I get that now, but I grew up.
Guest:My mother died.
Guest:I had serious abandonment issues.
Guest:And then when this happened, I felt so unloved.
Marc:When you found out about Nelson?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was lied to, betrayed.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I felt unclaimed, so unloved.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I didn't understand the whole story.
Guest:And when you have those feelings inside, you know, all those feelings of imposter syndrome, abandonment is a rough one.
Guest:I'm not going to lie.
Guest:Abandonment is just a rough one to get over.
Marc:But that's all attached to the original trauma of the car accident.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But then how things can...
Marc:Switch with the truth.
Marc:Yeah, what a relief.
Guest:What a relief.
Guest:But it's for me like it's a miracle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like I was, my assessment was so far off.
Marc:Well, how could you know any different?
Guest:Because you're a kid and you think your mother dies, it's your fault.
Marc:But on some level, those feelings are valid.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:They're all valid.
Guest:They're all valid.
Guest:And they're all real.
Guest:And two things can be true at once.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Several things can be true at once.
Guest:But the fact that I have this devotion of these two men, true devotion, that, I mean...
Guest:You're lucky if you have the devotion of one person.
Guest:So that I had these two fathers.
Guest:And so that's how I look at it now is that I have two fathers, that I have two men that loved me, you know, in a paternal way.
Guest:And the same thing with the mothers, that I have two mothers.
Guest:That was the other thing is that I didn't feel that she loved me.
Marc:Who, Jane?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, how could you know?
Guest:But also, I just did, I thought she was too busy for me.
Guest:I thought I was, you know, when I say that in the movie, if you see me holding my bottle, I clearly was like, I got this, people.
Guest:I will do it myself.
Marc:Right, but all that is through, you know, in terms of feeling loved, you know,
Marc:The memory of it actually being the time that you have with her is gone.
Marc:I mean, you can't access that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you can only project this stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know.
Guest:That's why it's also a commentary on memory.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And what we remember and what is real and what is not real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, this is, you know, people say, why did you make this movie now?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Because I was ready.
Marc:Yeah, because it's time.
Marc:Because it's time.
Marc:Well, it's a beautiful thing, this movie.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And it's a real human drama that ends in a way that you could never imagine.
Marc:And it's freeing for so many people.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:That's a beautiful thing to say.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I hope so.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:Great story.
Marc:Great person.
Marc:The HBO documentary she directed, My Mom Jane, is now streaming on Max.
Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.
Marc:So five years ago during COVID lockdown, I got a chance to talk to another Law & Order SVU cast member, Ice-T.
Marc:That was episode 1145.
Marc:I was in Barcelona, Spain on a honeymoon.
Marc:And at some point, must have been earlier that year, and we went to the aquarium, me and this woman.
Marc:And you were at the aquarium and...
Marc:In Barcelona, Spain, with one of the kids and a wife.
Marc:And you were just looking at the fish.
Marc:Does this make sense?
Marc:Do you remember doing that?
Guest:It makes absolute sense.
Marc:So I'm walking behind you because you're reading off the information cards and you're reacting to what's in the tank.
Marc:And I was like, we got to follow this guy because this is the best tour I've ever been on.
Guest:And you know what, though?
Guest:When you travel...
Guest:I was probably on tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've never gone to any foreign country just to hang out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've always gone because I was on tour or something.
Guest:And if you don't take advantage of that trip and go see some sites, you know what I'm saying?
Guest:You lose your mind.
Guest:So I was in, I'll tell you another funny story.
Guest:I was in Ireland.
Guest:I love Ireland.
Marc:Love it.
Guest:You like it?
Yeah.
Guest:It was cool.
Guest:See, I like every place I go because every place I go, I got a fan base.
Guest:So I go from the hotel to people that love me.
Guest:So I go right from the hotel to a group of people that can't wait to see me.
Guest:I'm always going to love the place.
Guest:People are like, oh, well, it's fucked up there.
Guest:I'm like, I'm not even there long enough to know.
Marc:I'm just there for the love, and then I'm out.
Guest:I'm out.
Guest:So we went to a zoo.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And a fucking gorilla almost tried to kill me, right?
Guest:Like we were, me and Ernie C were looking at this gorilla and it was a big plexiglass thing.
Guest:And the gorilla was maybe, say, 40 feet away.
Guest:And the gorilla took one look at me.
Guest:I might have been the first black person it saw.
Guest:And it beat its chest and it came and it rushed and it tried to hit the glass.
Guest:Blam!
Guest:I'm like, oh my God, that glass wasn't there.
Guest:That gorilla just killed me.
Guest:So I almost died by gorilla in Ireland.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Go check that out right now on whatever podcast player you're using.
Marc:Ice-T on episode 1145.
Marc:And if you want every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for WTF+.
Marc:Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Now I'm going to try to... I've been doing actual songs lately because I want to get in the habit of trying to learn things.
Marc:So now I'm going to clunk my way through this one.
uh
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Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.