Episode 1651 - Mike Birbiglia
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:If you're just getting on board here, welcome.
Marc:I know some people are curious.
Marc:They've been reading about it.
Marc:It's sort of still amazing to me, but not really.
Marc:Just how we all create our own little bubbles.
Marc:And I know for a fact that most people don't know who I am.
Marc:Most people in the world.
Marc:But that's OK.
Marc:It's really OK.
Marc:I'd rather be a little below the radar.
Marc:I'd like to just cruise at my own altitude.
Marc:And, you know, I don't want to be something everybody looks up in the sky and says, oh, shit.
Marc:Look at that thing.
Marc:No, I just kind of want to zip by my own lane, my own frequency, and my own altitude and live the life.
Marc:But if you are just checking in for the first time, welcome.
Marc:You've got a lot of catching up to do.
Marc:It's only about 1600 and change episodes, but they're all pretty good.
Marc:I can vouch for them because I was there when they happened.
Marc:I hope you're well.
Marc:I hope that thing cleared up.
Marc:And I hope that, you know, everything was OK with that meeting you had.
Marc:And I also hope that you don't hurt yourself because you're not paying attention to the road right now.
Marc:Wake up.
Marc:Hey, hey, don't ride the brake.
Marc:I was in a car the other day and the guy was riding the brake.
Marc:There is nothing I cannot stand more than that.
Marc:It makes me furious.
Marc:I'm sure there's deeper issues that are probably being brought up.
Marc:But the riding the brake thing, I can't take it.
Marc:I don't know how to ride the brake in anything.
Marc:Well, that's not true.
Marc:Maybe not ride the brake, but I'll hang out in the lower gear sometimes.
Marc:So look, you guys, I know a lot of you are...
Marc:watching and reading and hearing and freaking out about what is really martial law here in some parts of the Los Angeles area.
Marc:This is an authoritarian shit show of a political theater put on by our sociopathic huckster clown king to kind of flex his dick and show us what the future holds.
Marc:But it is happening.
Marc:But I do want you to know
Marc:that even people that know better, that when it's sort of presented as the state of California is burning, the state of California is in chaos, the state of California is crumbling, just know that the state of California is fucking huge.
Marc:I mean, is it what is it?
Marc:Is it the biggest state or is Texas?
Marc:Is it the second biggest state?
Marc:I mean, there is shit going down and it's horrible shit.
Marc:There are peaceful protests that have been instigated into something maybe more than that by the Marine presence, by the National Guard presence.
Marc:The cops here were doing fine, but I'm telling you, this is a flex.
Marc:And this is the country we're living in now.
Marc:And anybody who watches this shit that watches this horrible reality of innocent people being ripped out of their homes with no due process and taken away and watches clips of that and thinks, yeah, this is the way America should be.
Marc:You're a shitty person.
Marc:You're just a shitty person.
Marc:And there's a lot more shitty people than I ever imagined.
Marc:You know, I used to think people were fundamentally or innately decent or cared about other people, but something's broken the brains of many.
Marc:There's a mania.
Marc:There's a doubling down.
Marc:There's a honoring one's worst and most primitive instincts.
Marc:in relation to other human beings.
Marc:There's a loss of decency, a loss of tolerance, a loss of basic love and respect.
Marc:And it's just being fanned.
Marc:These flames are being fanned.
Marc:And this is the shit show we live in.
Marc:I'm grateful to the people that stood up and got out there and tried to have a peaceful protest like we're allowed to do, to speak our minds and show what we believe in as Americans.
Marc:And it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do that.
Marc:But I just want you to know that not unlike most other states, probably all other states, California is a huge place with lots of different kinds of people in it.
Marc:Lots of good people.
Marc:Lots of iffy people.
Marc:Lots of shitty people.
Marc:Lots of people that are struggling.
Marc:But it's massive.
Marc:And this idea that this state is crumbling...
Marc:because that's how it's being contextualized or presented to you on your phone or in the clips you're watching is not true.
Marc:There are people standing up.
Marc:There are people out in the streets.
Marc:There are people engaging in their democratic right to a peaceful protest.
Marc:There are people like me talking on microphones and there are people just kind of, you know, herding horses and, you know, doing some farming and, you know, trying to have a life.
Marc:But I don't I don't think you should be blind to it.
Marc:But just know that this is political theater on behalf of an authoritarian government in what's becoming more and more a fascist culture in order to terrify and frighten the average person.
Marc:And it's probably working.
Marc:That said, so I got Mike Birbiglia on the show.
Marc:And look, I go way back with this guy.
Marc:And I've talked about our history together on episode 94.
Marc:Then he was on again for episode 300 when he was the interviewer of me.
Marc:I was in his film Sleepwalk with me.
Marc:He's also the director of Don't Think Twice.
Marc:He's had four Netflix specials, including his latest called The Good Life.
Marc:And silly problems between me and him, they're not even problems, they're just feelings, persist mostly in me.
Marc:And look, I know it's me and it's one of these weird kind of things I have to deconstruct and...
Marc:live in and figure out why these feelings exist and what I need to act on, probably none.
Marc:And, you know, why I have this thing with him, I don't know.
Marc:But he keeps coming back, folks.
Marc:He keeps coming back because, you know...
Marc:I think on some level, we like each other.
Marc:On another level, he's got a special coming out.
Marc:So when we get to it, we get on it.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:We get into it a bit.
Marc:But I would say it's better than it has been in the past.
Marc:The documentary, Are We Good?, is screening at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City.
Marc:Come see it this Saturday, June 14th at 5 p.m.
Marc:That's at the OKX Theater on Chambers Street.
Marc:I'll be doing a Q&A with Tracy Letts after the screening.
Marc:Then Sunday, June 15th at 5.30 p.m., it's a screening at the Village East on 2nd Avenue and 12th Street.
Marc:Also, there are now four episodes of Stick on Apple TV+.
Marc:New episodes premiere every Wednesday.
Marc:I got to watch that new one.
Marc:I'm watching them as they happen with you.
Marc:It's a good show.
Marc:Me and Owen, I think we're doing a good.
Marc:Everyone in the cast is doing a great job.
Marc:A great job.
Marc:So, look, I do want to bring to your attention something to an article that came out.
Marc:Sort of.
Marc:It's an epic article.
Marc:It's on a defector defector.com.
Marc:And the article is called, there will never be another WTF with Mark Marin.
Marc:It's by a woman named Diana Moskovitz.
Marc:And it's a beautiful, beautiful article.
Marc:And look, I'm not tooting my own horn, but you know, when you read about yourself and your, your achievements and what you do like me and Brendan and, and,
Marc:There is insights there that I couldn't have because I barely know how many people listen to this.
Marc:I don't check numbers.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I just do these talks and I'll look at social media sometimes, but it's been years and years since I've worried about who's taking it in or what they think about it necessarily.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But this woman has had a long relationship with this show and she's a great writer.
Marc:And her assessment of it and her experience with it was just beautiful.
Marc:I got choked up at the end and she really got something.
Marc:And it's something, there's a whole section in this piece that I wouldn't have never really thought of about whatever it is I do in my monologues, my particular tone, my particular sense of myself.
Marc:But more than that, my particular position or emotional disposition,
Marc:as a man in a society where men are thought of in a certain way.
Marc:And much of that is toxic and much of it is predictable.
Marc:But she was able to really kind of oddly compare my emotional output and how I
Marc:handle my tone on this show as, you know, fundamentally the domain of women writers and presenters in terms of what I talk about and how open I am about my particular problems or vulnerabilities or cats or whatever.
Marc:And I was very moved by that.
Marc:Not not insulted or felt it was off.
Marc:It made perfect sense.
Marc:Yes, I do all I can to be a good woman.
Marc:I got a serious yin and yang thing going on there, but both the yin and the yang is in terms of male, female are pretty well represented.
Marc:But she also took in, you know, the way she framed, you know, her favorite interviews, which were, you know, outliers or ones that I don't hear much with Sir Ian McKellen and Sir Patrick Stewart and why she liked them and how they represented the show.
Marc:And also just sort of assessing my relationship with Brendan, who has been my production partner and business partner from day one in a very...
Marc:equal relationship 50 50 all the way down the line and it's always been our our game it's always been our thing we've never sold it out you know we've done ads but we've always maintained control and this is the only thing we do and the way she framed it as being not unlike a a punk rock band who you love but you know eventually will will not be a band anymore was kind of beautiful and very touching and
Marc:I recommend that you read this thing, not because, again, that I'm tooting my own horn, but I thought it was a kind of brilliant and deep and personal and honest and on the money assessment of what Brendan and I have done here over the last 16 years.
Marc:Okay, so look, yeah, again, as we move through these last few months, not a eulogy, an appreciation of you, an appreciation of the appreciation, and also just my life.
Marc:Cats are okay, a little nervous.
Marc:They seem to know too much when I'm preparing to travel.
Marc:So look, Mike Birbiglia is here.
Marc:I think we had a relatively pleasant interaction.
Marc:We, you know, we got past whatever dumb stuff I have maintained in terms of tension between us and got to talk about jokes and his new special and about life and death.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:His new Netflix special, The Good Life, is streaming now.
Marc:And this is me talking to Mike.
The Good Life
Marc:Yeah, the notion of having to be aware of a bit and how it can be disassembled and re... Yeah, you were considering cutting a bit from your special you're shooting.
Marc:Well, yeah, it wasn't supposed to be in there.
Marc:I'd made the decision not to do it because it was always provocative and it's a difficult situation.
Marc:And what ultimately...
Marc:And then we shot it after the second show just to have it.
Marc:And, you know, I talked to Brendan.
Marc:I talked to my director and I talked to my girlfriend just about the it's not so much.
Marc:There's no cowardice in not doing it.
Marc:All that I'm saving myself from is the bit being cut up and then me being trolled for the rest of my life.
Guest:No, that's whenever people ask me, can you not say anything anymore, which is a real trope now.
Guest:It's like, you can't say anything anymore.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You have to have an answer for that.
Guest:You can, except people can cut it up into a 10-second version, a 3-second version, a 60-second version.
Guest:And so then it's completely out of your hands.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Then, like you're saying, people can use it against you for the rest of the time.
Guest:So then when you're releasing a comedy special, you've got to go like, okay...
Guest:How could they use this?
Marc:But like, do you like you like I know exactly what my concern is because it's political.
Marc:But like for you, what would what would an example?
Marc:Well, I have that.
Guest:I have that joke in this special, you know, basically eight year olds are insufferable.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:When I spend time with my daughter, I think like this makes me really not understand pedophilia.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a that's a tricky joke.
Guest:It's a tricky joke, but it's like a good joke.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I'm like, no, no, I stand behind this joke.
Guest:This is a provocative, insane joke, but I'm on the right side of it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, that's the thing is that, you know, if you, especially if you've been doing...
Marc:And you work on these jokes.
Marc:And you know when you're doing the jokes that, like, this is a button pusher in a way.
Marc:It's not even a button pusher.
Marc:What it is, it's a take on something that puts you in the center of it.
Marc:And then people have to, you know, kind of go through the shocking element of it.
Guest:Yeah, and that's actually the fun of this whole special.
Guest:I have a joke about my dad.
Guest:I go, my dad had a stroke.
Guest:It's been devastating, but I will say it has calmed him down.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do stuff about my dad, his manic depression and dementia.
Marc:He's not depressed anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, no, it's crazy.
Guest:I just heard you on the phone with your dad.
Guest:It's actually very sweet.
Guest:Like you say, I love you.
Guest:I've never had that.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:We don't say I love you.
Marc:We say take care.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, you know, they soften up and my dad was always, they would say I love you, but I didn't believe it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, but in terms of those jokes, is that that is the great thrill of doing a dark joke, is that, like, you manage to transcend the darkness.
Marc:I mean, that is the trick of the whole thing, is you have this horrendous thing at the core of it, and then you can lift it up to... And it's not even shed light on it, but to disarm it through comedy, right?
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:Yeah, and that's the thing.
Guest:I was like, we should talk about that, because...
Guest:Bleak to Dark does that, and I think Good Life does that.
Marc:But it takes work, dude.
Guest:Yeah, it takes work.
Guest:It's a lot of work.
Marc:Because you have to find the tone.
Marc:It's so hard.
Marc:It's through repetition and getting comfortable with it yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, like, it really—it's different.
Marc:It's interesting because, you know, you craft jokes—
Marc:I think we're similar in how we go about putting stuff together.
Marc:I think you were actually the person that made me do callbacks, and it was driven by resentment.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:Because it's true, though.
Marc:I never told you that.
Marc:I watched one of your older specials.
Marc:It was probably before or more later or something, and I saw the way you structured them.
Marc:And at that point, I wasn't really looking for through lines and there wasn't really a thread connecting them together.
Marc:And then I watched you and I'm like, oh, it's a trick.
Marc:It's callbacks.
Marc:I can fucking do that.
Marc:And out of spite, you move me forward creatively.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Guest:Yeah, it's like I don't think of it as callbacks.
Guest:I think of it as for momentum.
Guest:So in other words, like instead of and then, and then, and then, it's so then, so then, so then.
Guest:So that you have to – sometimes you have to remind people, oh, yeah, that was my girlfriend in college.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So it's a callback technically in stand-up comedy terms, but actually you're reminding them of the story that you're in.
Marc:Yeah, but the thing that it – the illusion it creates –
Marc:is a story that threads the whole thing together.
Marc:But your special, your new one, is basically a story.
Marc:It's a story, yeah.
Marc:But when you don't necessarily have a through line for the whole set, if you can drop a reference to an earlier bit later on, there's a connection that kind of holds the whole thing together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's an illusion, though, because it's not a story, but it's just sort of like, oh, I remember that from the other joke.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I try to find them all the time now.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:I'm glad I've taught you about comedy.
Marc:Yeah, I appreciate it.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've never denied your abilities.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:I've never denied your abilities.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can use that as a blurb.
Marc:I'm really good at blurbs.
Marc:I tried to be so diplomatic with Nick Kroll about his new movie that he kept saying, that's a good tag.
Marc:What is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they were all kind of horrible.
Marc:Like, it feels complete.
Marc:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:Like that kind of stuff.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But, yeah, it's interesting.
Guest:Like, yeah, the thing we're talking about of, like, turning something sad like you did with Lynn into something funny.
Guest:I think that's the job.
Guest:I actually think that's the job of being a comic.
Guest:is you make people laugh.
Guest:Making people laugh is baseline, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Making people laugh at something they're sad about, that's the real stuff.
Marc:Well, it's essential, or angry about, or whatever.
Marc:Like, I think on one, for me, comedy will work to look at things differently.
Marc:I think that's another thing.
Marc:Agreed, agreed.
Marc:Outside the sadness is to sort of, like, turn the lens.
Marc:Like, I never thought about it like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the elevation, to actually provide some sort of...
Marc:humanity and relief to things that are really not discussed.
Marc:Like I think the whole like, you know, approaching grief, which is something everybody deals with.
Marc:Nobody likes to talk about it and nobody wants it in their life.
Marc:But it's a it's an inevitable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's going to happen.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So to get into that zone and to disarm it and to open up a conversation about it, I think is definitely proactive.
Marc:And it's good.
Marc:And it should be a purpose of comedy.
Marc:I think that, like, Pryor used to do that.
Marc:Like, in the sense of, you know, talking about volunteering your insane life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And struggle, you know, to put it out for the world.
Marc:Because, like, whatever he did about race, his personal upbringing was fucking nuts.
Marc:Horrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Horrible.
Guest:He grew up in a brothel.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But all the things he got out of it were amazing.
Marc:It's the determination of the human spirit.
Marc:It's important.
Marc:Agree.
Marc:Agree.
Marc:But the whole not being able to say anything, it's interesting because I feel that—
Marc:Like what I talked about on some interview with politics is that people are going to self-center, that the power of terror and propaganda makes people afraid to talk.
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I think that's the bigger concern of a certain type of thinking that is more dangerous and like you can't say that.
Marc:If you're saying that to yourself, that to me is the real threat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's out there.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With your fucking neighbors, people at work.
Marc:They can't even talk about the world because they don't know if it's like they're going to open up some fucking shitbox of anger on someone in their life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But with this special and to like I was going to tell you, I had this realization about, you know, some some of our attention.
Marc:That's all driven by me.
Marc:Is that for me, because I have it with a couple other people, is that like I think I'm a pretty decent guy with people.
Marc:But if somebody like annoys me for whatever reason, it's not their problem.
Marc:Eventually, I get I get stuck in something and then I'll get, you know, I'll say some shitty stuff.
Marc:But I realized I was talking because I want to make a joke out of it.
Marc:If you're that kind of person where you kind of blow up at somebody or say something hurtful, as soon as you do that with me, I'm like, oh, fuck, what did I do that?
Marc:And then for me, it's over.
Marc:But whatever you've done to the other person, who knows how long that'll go on.
Marc:Oh, of course.
Marc:So there's that idea that I'm a pretty good guy, but sometimes I blow up.
Marc:But right after, I'm fine.
Marc:You know, as long as I hurt your feelings for a second and then I'm good.
Guest:That's like my dad.
Guest:But I think that's like you're a little bit like my dad.
Guest:But isn't that rageaholic behavior?
Marc:I used to rage.
Marc:And it's more precise than that.
Marc:I think, you know, what happens is for me is I feel like that I have a justified problem with somebody that.
Marc:But the—so I guess it's Rachel Hawke in the sense that, like, well, yeah, but you can choose not to, you know, act on it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or don't deal with that person.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, it's not your job to dump your problems with—like, what are they going to do?
Marc:Like, let me fix that for you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, that's an unreasonable expectation.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I think it has to do with anger and insecurity, but rage is rage.
Marc:Yeah, it's funny, like, you know—
Guest:Like my last special, The Old Man in the Pool, the ending of it is this thing where I talk a lot about how my dad and I never said I love you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've never said I love you.
Guest:I think never, I think actually.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:At the end of the special, I go, because the special is all about death and all this thematically about death.
Guest:And at the end of it, I go, what I want to say to my parents, and then it cuts to black.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is what happens.
Guest:We don't choose...
Guest:We want to choose that our life is in the first act or the second act or the third act.
Guest:It just ends when it ends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, I feel like that was true, you know, with Lynn Shelton, where it's like she died.
Guest:I love Lynn Shelton.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I considered her a friend, and I was in one of her movies.
Guest:Yeah, she loved you.
Guest:She was one of the great people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:you don't you don't think she's gonna fuck what the fuck like when i heard she died like you can't believe it and it's like and then you think back like oh what was my last interaction with her my last interaction was was she did we did a movie with you she asked me to host the q a and you said mark doesn't like mark doesn't like me i don't want to do it
Guest:I would do anything for you, Lynn, but Mark doesn't like me.
Guest:It just feels toxic.
Guest:In hindsight, I should have just gone, Lynn wants this.
Guest:I love Lynn.
Guest:I'm going to put this behind me and just go fuck it.
Marc:I know how to deal with Mark.
LAUGHTER
Guest:yeah so anyway but that that's the thing is like you know when you whenever whenever you know you've expressed resentment towards me or for whatever reason that it doesn't really make sense to me but but it's but i i want to put it to rest and i try to put it to rest and i've spent my whole life in relationship with you yeah trying to put it to rest and when we do hang out it's perfectly fine we're you know we're both you know uh
Marc:You know, real comics and we talk about real stuff and everything is good.
Marc:I really think it's really just petty.
Marc:It started in petty jealousy and then it just becomes there's just there's certain people that, you know, I completely think you're a great comic and I think you're a nice guy.
Marc:But there's just certain things about like I can name all three of the people.
Marc:Well, I know you have it with Jon Stewart.
Marc:Well, that's different.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:No, it would be—it's probably you and Pete.
Marc:Pete Holmes, who I love.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And probably, you know, Edelman's on the list, so he's a new entry.
Marc:Yeah, he's great, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, we'll see.
Marc:Like, I could argue, but— We'll see.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But what my vibe—what my feelings are, because I'm sort of a volatile, like, emotional— Rage-aholic.
Marc:I'm not a rage-aholic.
Okay.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:You're dispelling that?
Marc:No, only because I know what that looks like with me.
Marc:I have been an abusive, angry person.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You feel like that's behind you?
Marc:The abusive and raging part?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, and one of the ways that I do that is if...
Marc:If I can't manage those kind of emotions, I will detach from the person.
Marc:I know it's my problem.
Marc:But, you know, I don't have to have the certain people in my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't think I rage at you.
Marc:I don't rage at my girlfriend.
Marc:I don't really rage anymore.
Marc:You know, there it's just there's certain things that trigger a certain resentment in me.
Marc:And I'll and I'll get mean for a few minutes, but I'm not you know, I'm not going to like I used to scream.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So there's no there's none of that.
Marc:So if you're putting me on the spectrum of rageaholic, I'm very, like, I'm way just at the low end.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But in terms of, like, you know, stepping up and doing things and doing things with Lynn and making those moments, having regrets about the moments.
Marc:Of course, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It actually harkened to, like, something, I don't know, I've been working on myself in the last 10 years, which is, like, you know, just realizing, like, oh, yeah, it could just go away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, you can just die at any moment.
Guest:How old are you?
Guest:46.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I'm 61.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think about it all the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then there's the other thing that I conflict with is it could go at any time.
Marc:And then there's the other part of it, which is maybe in my hand.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's a funny joke you have in here.
Guest:Blink to dark or that you're not going to kill yourself with a bat.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It took so long to orchestrate that bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To figure out the physicality of it and how many times I should hit myself in the head.
Marc:That was one of the great moments.
Marc:You know when a joke comes to you and you're like, oh my God.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That line, you're not going to look at a bat and think, I'm going to kill myself.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I had that with, it's funny, with this special, people have said that to me about my urban air bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I wish I knew more about that place.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Like trampoline parks and how they're so fucking dangerous and crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've had a bunch of comics be like, I can't believe you got to that first.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You hit something and you go like, wait, no one's done this?
Guest:Great.
Guest:No one's touched trampoline parks for kids?
Marc:Fantastic.
Guest:Did you do research?
Guest:Yeah, I did research.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, I'd been to so many of these fucking birthday parties, so I'd been there multiple times.
Marc:Well, you realize that the pool of comics is going to be dads who talk about their kids.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So that limits it.
Marc:Yeah, that limits it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I can't stand that.
Marc:I had an issue with, I told him I wouldn't talk about it.
Marc:Now that we're talking about anger, I got angry yesterday at someone we both know for a very specific reason.
Marc:And the issue with jokes being out there forever on your Instagram and everywhere else is that there are people that don't know that they've glommed it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And it's just out there.
Marc:And now there's a whole generation of comics that watched me when they were kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so all of a sudden I see one of my jokes surface.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Partially or all of it.
Marc:And I have to be like, well, you know, that's your joke, but you haven't done it in 15 years.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now this guy's doing it.
Marc:So what do I do?
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:Yeah, I had someone come up to me at the cellar recently and they're like, oh, I'm a huge fan.
Guest:You know, they're a comic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I came up on your stuff and then I looked on their Instagram and I saw like one of my jokes.
Guest:It was like one of my early jokes.
Guest:And it was almost word for word.
Guest:And I said to my wife, Jenny, I go like...
Guest:That's the flow of this whole thing.
Guest:At a certain point, you become the person who people came up on.
Guest:I'm not saying that guy stole a joke, but it's in there.
Marc:It's in the brain.
Marc:But that's it.
Marc:It's not even the act of forgiving that.
Marc:And we understand it because I've seen it over and over again.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:And there are some areas of observation that are pretty commonplace.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, but if you have a unique twist on it that you know is yours.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But some jokes are like, you know, there are some things you talk about.
Marc:And that's one of the reasons why I decided to talk about myself exclusively is that no one can take that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, if you're looking at the world, then you're at risk.
Guest:That's what Lucian Hold, who used to run the comic strip, taught me.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:He was one of the first people.
Guest:I was, like, probably in my early 20s.
Guest:And I was doing observational comedy about the Teletubbies and Mr. T and A-Team.
Guest:All the big topics.
Guest:And then...
Guest:He goes, if you talk about yourself, no one can steal your jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I started talking about myself.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:It's a great piece of advice.
Guest:The best.
Marc:I don't really have... But then, you know what happens when you get older and you do a few specials?
Marc:You tap yourself out.
Marc:You're like, the well.
Marc:All of a sudden, the well's all filled up.
Guest:Well, Sedaris said that on my podcast.
Guest:He goes, you go...
Guest:When you're starting writing, you have the most stories because you have your whole life, but you're not that good at telling stories.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then as your life goes on, you have less stories, but you're way better at telling the stories.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But do you find, like, how did you handle that guy doing your joke?
Guest:I was actually fine with it.
Guest:It was so weird.
Guest:Didn't do nothing.
Guest:I didn't do nothing.
Guest:No, I didn't do anything.
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:To me, it's like I don't think of it as things for me.
Guest:I'm like, this is great.
Guest:I'm doing great.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Not in life, in comedy.
Okay.
Guest:I mean, I have the struggles that everyone has of being alive.
Guest:Your stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But my comedy, it's like I write these shows, they're really specific, and people show up live to see them, and then I'm able to make comedy specials from them.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:What else could you want as a comedian?
Guest:I'm grateful.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:So when I see someone crib a joke, or maybe they don't realize they crib a joke, I go, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I get—here's what happened in the two cases for me is someone brought it to my attention that there was this kid doing a joke I did literally in 1989.
Marc:That's really funny.
Marc:And, you know, it's out there.
Marc:You know, and this kid, you know, maybe he could have seen it when he was a kid.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And it was the same setup.
Marc:And I—you know, someone sent me a clip of him doing it from Instagram.
Marc:So I DM'd him.
Marc:I said, look—
Marc:I did that joke, but I don't care.
Marc:But I'm just telling you because it might be brought to your attention.
Marc:So if someone's going to be like, yeah, it's a Marc Maron joke or whatever, that might happen, but I'm okay with it.
Marc:Yeah, that's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I think I handled that well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the other thing, yesterday I did not handle well.
Marc:And it was sort of the same thing, but...
Marc:You know, if somebody has a pattern of taking jokes from different people, that becomes a more difficult situation.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:Like, I remember when you had Robin Williams on years ago.
Guest:And that was a great conversation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you talked to him about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that he had not, in my opinion, that he had not intended to lift jokes, but that he, in some ways, was a sponge of comedy.
Marc:I saw how it happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because he saw me at the Throckmorton once, and I did this bit.
Marc:It was a big bit about the sober demon bit.
Marc:It used to be like, yeah, let's go out and get some blows, some pussy, and some booze.
Marc:And then it's like, how about some ice cream?
Marc:And he...
Marc:You know, he came up to me after the show, he goes, ooh, the demon is a... And he starts riffing on my premise.
Guest:Is this the Robert Williams version?
Marc:Yeah, and he's riffing on it.
Marc:I'm like, that's how it happens.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Marc:That's like one step away from, you know, it's mine.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I guess there's nothing we can do about it.
Guest:Yeah, I remember one time Mulaney, when he was writing on SNL, texted me, hey, did you ever do the polar bear drinking Coca-Cola as a bit on an album?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a tag he had written for me on tour with me like years before.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:I was like, yeah, it's on Two Drink Mike and it's on this special or whatever.
Guest:He's like, all right, I won't do it.
Guest:But he had written it.
Guest:He had written it, right?
Guest:So, like, I said to him, you can use it if you want.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like, I don't care.
Guest:But, like, I do think, like, there is a degree where we're doing all these brain exercises as comedians and trying to put out more and more and more stuff to figure out what's funny to us.
Guest:And you do come across the same ideas.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Parallel thinking's real.
Marc:And, like, when I did this special, I had this one joke.
Marc:It's pretty much a one-liner.
Marc:But I had a sense...
Marc:Not that I took it from somebody, but that someone else was doing a lot.
Guest:It might be out there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I was like, fuck it.
Marc:And I didn't do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then it's funny because Rock gave me a tag for a joke that really worked well.
Marc:And then it was part of the joke that I took out of the special.
Marc:So that's gone.
Guest:Melanie had a great tag in my special The Good Life, which is my wife is a poet, I'm a comedian, together we're a sculptor.
Yeah.
Marc:Such a simple joke.
Marc:That's a good joke.
Marc:Isn't it great?
Marc:It kills.
Marc:It doesn't like when someone gives you a tag and it really works well, don't you ever get that moment where you're like, fuck, why didn't I?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:How is he just so good at that?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that's what, next time you're in New York, you've got to come on Working It Out.
Guest:My podcast, we just work out jokes.
Guest:But I think you'd like it.
Guest:Because I think you love jokes.
Marc:Well, I do.
Marc:You work out jokes in real time.
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:But they become jokes.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:When I did this special, I had a really simple everyone can love joke.
Marc:It's a cat joke.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I had a tag, but it wasn't quite right, and I knew it.
Marc:It worked good enough.
Marc:It basically has two punchlines.
Marc:There's the turn, and that gets the laugh, but then there's another beat there that was required to kind of close it up.
Marc:And the thing I had there was okay, but literally three days before the special, I was on stage, and it was delivered to me.
Marc:And that's the way I work.
Marc:That's what makes it interesting.
Guest:That's nice.
Marc:I don't know where it comes from.
Marc:It's from the gods.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Most of my stuff is.
Guest:That's like the Bob Dylan documentary Scorsese did years ago where he goes, I didn't write these songs.
Guest:God wrote these songs.
Guest:And it's like it's kind of nuts through a certain lens, but through another lens, you're like, yeah.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Where does it come from?
Marc:I know it specifically with me because I work through talking.
Marc:I don't write it.
Marc:And I believe that it's like if you're a funny person and you put yourself in a position where you have to be funny, which is a comic's job, but literally corner yourself.
Marc:Like I've got a funny enough idea that'll get a few laughs, but I'm hoping that by doing it, it'll evolve.
Marc:And where the hell does that come from?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I mean, it comes from your brain in a moment, but it didn't come from your brain sitting there going, hmm.
Marc:Well, it's fight or flight meets jokes.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So we're doing your podcast now.
Guest:Do you come to New York a lot?
Marc:I'm going to be there.
Guest:I saw you there at the cellar.
Guest:I was there to shoot the special.
Guest:Oh, is that what it was?
Guest:No.
Guest:A couple of weeks ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I saw you.
Guest:And then before that, I saw you at the cellar.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll be there for Tribeca.
Marc:In a couple weeks.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:Are you in a movie?
Marc:Yeah, there's a documentary about me.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:Yeah, it's all right.
Marc:I mean, it's good.
Marc:It's a lot of me.
Marc:It's a lot of you.
Marc:It's almost too much me for me.
Marc:But it talks about the Lynn and the COVID and building an act after that.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:And then it became more expansive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can come see it if you want.
Marc:I'll come see it.
Marc:You can do it.
Marc:What do you mean if I can do it?
Marc:Well, I don't know how much you are that interested in me.
Yeah.
Marc:I am interested in you.
Marc:So the one thing I didn't know about watching this special, and I don't know why I didn't know it.
Marc:I probably knew it because you've done this show more than anybody for a guy who doesn't get along with me or I don't get along with you.
Marc:But, like, we grew up with doctor dads.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's a very specific, weird thing.
Marc:Oh, it's a very specific type of dad.
Marc:Yeah, but my dad was similar to yours, really.
Guest:And Conan did, too.
Marc:What kind of doctor was his dad?
Guest:You know, I'm not sure.
Guest:My dad is a retired neurologist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a big one.
Guest:It's no pun intended.
Guest:It's a heady profession.
Guest:It really is like it's a smart group of people.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:My dad was more of the kind of, I guess, the working class doctor in a way.
Marc:He was an orthopedic surgeon.
Marc:So it's like hammers and saws, screws.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Cutting people open.
Guest:chopping away totally yeah it's weird like only as I get older and I feel like you've probably had this with your dad although I did hear you say I love you to your dad a second ago so that's nice but I do feel like there is a degree of the emotional withholding is not unrelated to the job
Guest:Where he's compartmentalizing what is really extreme.
Guest:I mean, he's dealing at work.
Guest:My dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People with Parkinson's.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:People with, you know, MS.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Really.
Guest:Brain disorders is a fucking hell.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then he comes home.
Guest:And he's just trying to sit there and read his war novels.
Guest:And meanwhile, I'm projecting on him that he's this mythological creature of perfection in my life.
Guest:And it's like, no, he's just a guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's saving lives and being a good dad and being a good doctor.
Guest:And it's funny.
Guest:People would come up to me when I was a kid.
Guest:They'd go, your dad's a great doctor.
Guest:And I'd go, oh, thanks.
Guest:And then he'd be like, no, for real.
Guest:I've gone to a lot of doctors.
Guest:He's a really special.
Guest:And it's like, I just didn't see that side of my dad.
Guest:It's just not what I saw.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I had a lot of anger about that for a lot of years.
Guest:And it's I talk about this in the special, but it was really only in the last few years where I got to understand, like, like you got to ask questions.
Guest:You got to be open to that.
Guest:These people are flawed, that your parents are flawed and just ask questions.
Guest:And also you don't know them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You don't know them.
Marc:You fucking just don't know them.
Marc:I do a bit in my special about that.
Marc:About, like, you don't know these people.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:I mean, they had whole lives before you.
Marc:They had lives outside of you.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And they have people in their lives.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't fucking know them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, my joke about dementia, which is pretty funny...
Marc:And I say, like, you know, if you can let go of who they were and just sort of deal with what is, there's a lot to be gained.
Marc:And I say, like, you know, the filter goes away eventually.
Marc:And the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kid, that's gone.
Marc:That's very funny.
Marc:So if you have unresolved issues or questions, just reach into that bingo cage of memories and see if you can pull out the missing piece that'll make you a whole person.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:That's a great that's a great one.
Guest:You know, I talked to my mom and dad yesterday because they haven't seen the special special drops.
Guest:How is he?
Guest:On Monday.
Guest:He's in rough shape.
Guest:I mean, he's like a tank.
Guest:His constitution, 84.
Guest:Yeah, my dad's 86.
Guest:Yeah, it's up there.
Guest:And it's like he had a stroke, you know, 15 months ago.
Guest:It was really extreme.
Guest:He's almost died about six or seven times, you know, where we took him.
Guest:Like he was at the hospital last week, wasn't eating, was throwing up, all this awful stuff, awful.
Guest:And so I was talking to them yesterday, and they haven't seen the special, you know.
Guest:But then their neighbors started telling them, oh, we saw Mike's special and it's beautiful and it's a love letter, Vince, to you.
Guest:But they're like, but it's also challenging.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:You're a good doctor.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:My parents had a vibe of what the special was yesterday when I was on the phone.
Guest:And I go...
Guest:I go, Vince, I call my parents Vince and MJ.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I go, Vince, I think you would, I think you'll like it, but it is challenging, you know, and it's about your, some of it's about your stroke.
Guest:And my dad on speakerphone goes, I don't like the personal stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I go, Vince, I go, you can't, you can't choose what your child's gift is.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:And he goes, that's true.
Guest:And he laughed.
Marc:And I was like, for me, that was peace.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:Because my dad, you know, when I wrote about him in my book, now he gets a kick out of it.
Marc:But I went to the mats with my dad.
Marc:Like, I pushed him as far as he could go.
Marc:And, you know, I saw what was at the core of him.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Which oddly is, fuck you.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's hostility.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just something.
Marc:I think that's at the core of every narcissistic personality.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Because they can't totally reveal themselves to themselves.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you're going to get the fuck you, you know.
Guest:But what's the correlation, though?
Guest:They can't reveal themselves to themselves.
Right.
Guest:Well, because I think they're not open to themselves about who they are.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So if you push them to go there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They're going to hold out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:All the way to the end.
Marc:It's going to come at you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, look, you know.
Marc:As people get older, and I don't know if you're seeing it because it's not necessarily in the special, is that they are half your brain.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And whatever their shortcomings or flaws were, that wired you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Half of it, at least.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:So at some point, you have to reckon with the good parts and the bad parts about your dad that you possess.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And then you have to say, like, all right, well, these are good things from him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And these are the bad things.
Marc:And a lot of times, those bad things will kind of be a struggle.
Marc:And they'll take you down.
Marc:And they're built to fuck you.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't know if you had that same experience.
Marc:Oh, but anyway, my dad, when I wrote about him in my book, he was furious.
Marc:And it was graphic.
Marc:And it was, you know, he was like very angry.
Marc:And I didn't do the same thing you did, which was more...
Marc:It was a better way to phrase it.
Marc:I said, well, look, it's my story, too.
Marc:This is my story.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, like, I own this story, my side of it, as much as you do, and you're part of my story.
Marc:Now, you can choose, and I'm not sure if I was as, you know...
Marc:careful as i could have been out of respect yeah but fundamentally i didn't respect him at that point so we had this fight on the phone and i said you know well he was worried that like some of the stuff i said would have implications for him professionally yeah and that you know you know his family was mad and this or that i'm like what do you want you want money sure yeah and he goes yeah and i go how much he goes a hundred thousand dollars yeah and i said i'll give you five
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Have you done that on stage?
Marc:Probably.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's a good bit.
Marc:Yeah, Melanie saw me do some shit about my mother that never made a special, you know.
Marc:But as they get older, you know, and he's softened and the love you thing.
Marc:Like when I told my mom, and they're not together, that I think dad's got the beginning of dementia.
Marc:She said, how can you tell?
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:Because he was always— He's the same.
Marc:Well, he's detached.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like, that was always the joke.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:That's what I was thinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, he'd be at dinner, but he wouldn't be there.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, and I don't know what that was.
Marc:It was a joke at the table.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, we'd be talking, and he'd be, like, off in space.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My feeling about my dad was always he was—I was the youngest of four.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was the oops baby, and so I don't think he wanted to be a dad much anymore.
Guest:The way my sisters describe it is like they would go on trips to Boston, and they'd buy raincoats, and they'd have a day out on the town.
Guest:I was like, I didn't get shit.
Guest:I got nothing.
Guest:I was just alone.
Guest:I was off what they call now a free-range kid.
Guest:I was just out with my friends.
Guest:friends yeah it's kind of i don't know like it was done but at the same time like as i get older i just go like you know oh my dad was a tough dad but also like compared to what yeah he didn't beat the shit out of me right you know what i mean like there's people who have a real heart you know sure but but detachment and emotional neglect is is
Marc:you know, not as traumatizing in events as physical abuse, but in the big picture is, is pretty mind fucking.
Marc:True.
Marc:You know, like I, I think that the, you know, comparing trauma and the effects of it, you know, some, some trauma is easily identified.
Marc:The other stuff is a little more insidious.
Yeah.
Guest:I know what you mean.
Guest:I just feel like it was never— Sure, you had money, you had good—you had everything you wanted.
Guest:He valued education.
Marc:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:There were things like that where, you know, my dad doesn't have—he'll die when he dies, today, tomorrow, in a year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like—
Guest:He'll die with no money.
Guest:He spent all his money on educating his kids.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, for real.
Guest:Like he always.
Guest:That's funny because my dad's broke too.
Guest:Yeah, he really valued that.
Guest:Because he grew up in Bushwick in an Italian neighborhood in the 40s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he had nothing.
Guest:And then he got a scholarship to a Catholic school, Xavier High School in Manhattan.
Marc:That's the same with my dad, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Well, he grew up with, you know, his mom was a teacher.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:His dad was like a bookkeeper.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he was a valedictorian.
Guest:My dad's dad worked in the subway tunnels.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was an electrician.
Guest:He'd go into those dark tunnels after they dynamite the tunnels.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he'd rig wires into darkness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the idea that my dad ended up being like a doctor and had a law degree and all this stuff, it's bananas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I don't, I weirdly like at this age, I don't begrudge him any of that stuff because he wasn't.
Guest:When my dad would rage, it would be like I say in the show, he'd be like, where are my goddamn keys?
Guest:And he'd be like, we got to find dad's keys.
Guest:Yeah, I know that one.
Guest:It gave me that like I was on edge.
Marc:The whole family has to snap into it.
Marc:Where's that ski hat?
Guest:Oh, here we go.
Guest:But it wasn't at me.
Guest:It wasn't like, God damn you, Mike.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It wasn't at me.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:But it definitely scrambled the family into action.
Marc:And then you never knew what you were going to be dealing with when he got home.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's like dealing with somebody with anger issues or self-centered, kind of the megalomaniacal thing of a doctor in general.
Marc:It's as erratic as an alcoholic.
Marc:Yeah, you're right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And my dad was, you know, like bipolar, I guess.
Marc:But you just didn't know, and you barely saw him.
Marc:So you wanted to engage one way or the other.
Marc:And it was always like before family trips or something.
Marc:Where the fuck is, you know?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:So you always enter these family experiences just afraid.
Guest:Well, it's funny.
Guest:Like, I, you know, I think the way I started writing this special two years ago was like, what can I teach my daughter?
Guest:My daughter's eight.
Guest:She's starting to ask questions that are hard.
Guest:That's the way I started it.
Marc:That's right, yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And about a year into it, dad had a stroke.
Guest:I was like, okay, now it's about how do I relate to my dad, how do I relate to my daughter?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, in some ways the irony of it is this way that I look at my dad as like this mythological all-knowing creature, that's me now, right?
Guest:Yeah, for her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like I—
Guest:Well, no, but you know that that's what it is, at least for a period of time.
Guest:And so I had to explain jokes to her the other day because I was like, this special is going to come out.
Guest:Millions of people are going to see it.
Guest:And I talk about you and mom and grandma and grandpa.
Guest:And so the way that I write jokes is like there's something real that's true, and then there's something silly, and then something real, and then something silly.
Guest:So I explained to her like the ballet joke.
Guest:I'm like, we went to your ballet recital, and mom and I are crying and crying because she doesn't have it, you know.
Guest:And then I was like, no, we're crying and we're hugging her.
Guest:And I go, you were so fantastic.
Guest:And then you said, dad, you would say I was fantastic even if I wasn't fantastic.
Guest:And I was like, you are so much better at logic than you are at ballet.
Guest:And I go like, so it's a joke.
Guest:Did she see it?
Guest:I showed her some clips.
Guest:How did she take it?
Guest:She took it pretty well.
Guest:She took it pretty well.
Guest:She goes, I like the true jokes better.
Guest:And I go, well, the good thing is the special ends on true.
Guest:I go, it's silly, true, silly, true, but it ends on true.
Guest:And I think that that's the important part.
Guest:And I think the audience knows which parts are silly and which parts are true.
Guest:And so I'm hoping that that reads.
Guest:She's 10.
Guest:I'm hoping that reads, but I'm also like, you know, I'm concerned.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, concerned in the sense that, like, at this age, when you showed her that joke, did it hurt her feelings?
Marc:Yeah, I think she didn't love it.
Guest:But I also think, like, she loves the joke where, for example, she goes, someone comes up to me on the street when I'm with her.
Guest:And goes, your dad's a great comedian.
Guest:She's like, all right.
Guest:And I go, Una, what do you think when people say stuff like that?
Guest:And she goes, it's a waste of my time.
Guest:And I go, that's the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me, and I know Bill Burr.
Guest:She's like, she loves that.
Guest:Because she gets the joke.
Guest:She tells the joke.
Guest:It's a waste of my time.
Guest:She gets to do a shot at you.
Guest:She takes a shot at me.
Guest:And truly, she really does love that and gets why...
Guest:What's funny about that?
Marc:I guess the question is that does it is there the possibility that implants in her that like I am not good enough?
Guest:Well, that's the concern.
Guest:But I think fortunately I wouldn't have done it about like, for example, like she's really good at swimming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like so she gave up ballet.
Guest:Yeah, that's like, yeah, I don't even think she remembers it barely.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like she was seven.
Guest:It doesn't really feel present.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Like I wouldn't have done it about a thing that she really cares about now.
Guest:So I didn't do anything about swimming or whatever.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:But I'm not doing anything about her for her teenage years.
Guest:I'm literally, and I told her that.
Guest:I go, I'm not talking about you for the next 10 years because you have your own journey and growth and like this is your story to tell.
Marc:Well, that's the tricky thing.
Marc:And that's the lesson with my dad and also the lessons that I've done jokes about women I've been involved with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that when they say to you, like, could you maybe go easy on this?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, depending on what's more important to you, which is a real question, you know, comedy or this.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:You know, you kind of navigate that.
Marc:But, you know, to what and also I had a girlfriend who I wrote about and she said her thing was, it's like, well, I don't get a public rebuttal.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So that's another thing you got to take into consideration.
Marc:That taught me a lot.
Marc:Oh, completely.
Marc:And because we want, you know, we're selfish.
Marc:We're like, but this is my story.
Marc:You're in it, but it's my story.
Marc:And they're like, yeah, but I don't agree with it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So then what?
Right.
Guest:Yeah, which is why I'm taking some time off from autobiographical storytelling.
Guest:Are you?
Guest:Because it is loaded.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm taking a few years off from it, and the thing I'm writing right now is my next movie I'm going to direct.
Guest:It'll be another small indie, like Sleepwalk With Me or Don't Think Twice.
Guest:It's actually a lot like Don't Think Twice.
Guest:It's about a group of friends, and it's at a wedding, and it's just that kind of— So you can live in other people a little bit.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And no one's one for one.
Guest:So, like, Don't Think Twice, for example, a lot of times people would be like, this is about Mike doing improv.
Guest:And it's like, no, it's not.
Guest:I wasn't really an improviser.
Guest:I did it in college or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But, like, it was funny because, yeah, did you ever see Don't Think Twice?
Guest:About the sketch group.
Guest:Yeah, the improv group.
Guest:Keegan-Michael Key and Gillian Jacobs.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I thought you would like it because it is about jealousy.
Guest:It's about what happens when someone gets, in this case, a fake Siren Live Keegan-Michael Key got, and then everyone else doesn't.
Guest:It's about what happens in life when we realize it's not fair.
Guest:That's actually one of the best things my mom told me when I was a kid.
Guest:I remember saying to my mom, it's not fair.
Guest:Someone got something.
Guest:She goes, nothing's fair.
Guest:Life isn't fair.
Guest:I think that's one of the best things you can teach a kid.
Guest:Oh, totally.
Marc:Nothing's fair.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But also, the other side of it is...
Marc:Is that we feel that because we feel we deserve something.
Marc:But we don't really know if we're right for the job or what they're looking for.
Guest:Are you talking about like the SNL scenario?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Or any scenario.
Marc:It's like, yeah, like some guy gets elevated because of you and you think like you deserve that.
Marc:But perhaps the person that was giving that job to somebody had a reason.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, 100%.
Marc:You know, and then you could say like, well, that's fucked up.
Marc:It's like, yeah, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:So that's the unfairness, but it's not a meritocracy issue.
Marc:Not at all.
Guest:It's funny, like doing that movie cured me of jealousy because I fucking wrote this movie for two years, three years.
Guest:I directed it.
Guest:I edited it.
Guest:Like it just was.
Guest:And then at a certain point, I was like.
Guest:These characters are fucking insufferable.
Guest:They need to get over themselves.
Guest:Because the same thing you're saying, it has nothing to do with them in a certain way.
Marc:Who gets what has kind of nothing to do with you.
Marc:And everybody, the jealousy is driven by your own insecurities and what you think you're entitled to based on your sense of justice or self-righteousness.
Marc:You might be talentless.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You might not deserve that job at all, but you can't see that.
Marc:And it's hard to learn that lesson.
Marc:To just go, well, it wasn't for me.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:It wasn't my opportunity to get.
Marc:And that takes some real humility.
Marc:Because, like, if you're ambitious and you want something and, you know, you believe you deserve it, how can you, like, when someone else gets it, go like, well, he's probably the better choice.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And it's interesting.
Guest:I was watching, I was on a show the other day with this guy, Arthur Brooks.
Guest:He's, like, a Harvard professor who wrote this book on, like, number one bestseller on happiness.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And he has this really basic, super smart guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really basic thing that I'm like, I'm going to teach my daughter this, which is,
Guest:When something challenging happens, write down two things.
Guest:And one of them is write down what happened and how it made you feel.
Guest:And the second thing is write down what you learned and then go back to it six months later.
Guest:And usually the first thing you actually don't care about.
Guest:And the second thing you learned.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Well, that kind of happens when you get older where you think like, well, how did I give so much of a fuck about that?
Marc:It's crazy.
Yeah.
Marc:Like it consumed me for years.
Marc:Oh, for sure.
Marc:And then it's like not even there anymore.
Marc:It's not even that it was stupid.
Marc:It's just like it was kind of like nothing.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, you know, it's funny about that, you know, you're 61.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Chris Rock said to me recently he goes you get to 60 because he's 60 also I think he goes you get to 60 he's like there's not many of us comics left like who are doing it yes you know and who aren't huge like the guys who like can you know go out just on a whim and make 50 million dollars they seem to never go away yeah
Marc:But the guys who, like, you know, like, what happened to that guy?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:No, there's a lot of that.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:There's a lot of that even now in my 40s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where did that happen to that guy?
Guest:Just gone.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a weird field in that way.
Guest:And a lot of people die.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing that's painful is, like, Geraldo died.
Guest:Hedberg died.
Guest:I mean, like.
Guest:In their prime.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Patrice died.
Marc:I mean, like, so many people die.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:But, like, that's not different than any other world.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've grown to argue this sort of like, well, comics are all fucked up or there's more drugs and alcohol.
Marc:And like, really?
Marc:More than cops?
Marc:More than firemen?
Marc:More than plumbers?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Show me the numbers.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I do want to see the numbers.
Marc:And also show me the ratio of comics versus how many working comics there are versus the ones that died young.
Marc:I think tragically is something.
Marc:But that happens too.
Marc:But yeah, people go.
Marc:And then there are those comics where you're like, whatever happened to that guy?
Marc:And then out of nowhere, you'll be like, oh, he's working down the street.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:That's insane.
Guest:Also, sometimes people get really good later.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Me.
Guest:Well, you're a good example.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:You were good in the 90s.
Marc:You're great now.
Marc:I'm better now.
Marc:I think you're better now.
Marc:I wasn't formed.
Marc:I was just angry.
Marc:I was a rageaholic.
Marc:Yeah, you're a rageaholic.
Marc:And I used to think like, well, this is what everybody wants.
Marc:But, you know, true rage versus funny rage, different thing.
Marc:True rage versus funny rage.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you're really an angry person and you don't have control of it, that's not great.
Marc:Even if you watch old Hicks stuff, I mean, his anger was utterly alienating, totally justified, but not entertaining for most people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Whereas somebody like Burr is a cranky, angry fuck.
Marc:But he's got a populist slant on it, and he's got a slant on the dynamic between him and his wife.
Marc:And he's softening up a little bit.
Marc:But the funny, cranky guy or the funny, angry guy is a rare bird.
Marc:And the ones that are good at it, it's great.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But honest rage, not great.
Marc:It's a little disconcerting.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:But no, I feel like I am better now.
Marc:I think you're better now.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:I think you've become less of a caricature of yourself.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Marc:And I think one of the things that annoyed me early on was that you were kind of leaning on this character that was part of you.
Marc:Our characters are always part of us.
Marc:But it didn't have a lot of depth necessarily.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think like when we're starting out, we're emulating the people we admire.
Guest:I mean, I remember even talking to Geraldo one time I was opening for him and he goes, he goes, dude, he goes, when I was starting out.
Guest:He was a tell.
Guest:Yeah, he goes, I was doing a tell.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:He goes, I have TV spots where I'm doing a tell and it pains me so much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because he admired a tell.
Guest:There's a fucking generation of people who admired a tell.
Guest:There was a lot of a tells around.
Marc:There was a lot of a tells running around.
Marc:Even now.
Marc:I would say that there are people who are influenced by him, but I would say Sam Murrell is definitely a Mattel.
Marc:That's a Mattel, yeah, I'm sure.
Marc:And then there was tons of Hedbergs for a while, Mitch Hedbergs.
Marc:That was a little more specific, and it was always annoying.
Marc:Because what you learn from Mattel is an incredible joke structure.
Marc:Oh, amazing.
Guest:And by the way, talk about someone who's better.
Guest:When I see him at the cellar, he's on fire.
Guest:He's always been on fire.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, this guy's got a fucking brain.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's like an abacus.
Marc:It's like an abacus that's on fire in his brain all the time.
Marc:A joke abacus.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:He's constantly putting it together.
Marc:That's what it is.
Marc:But Hedberg was a disposition.
Marc:So when people took Hedberg, they had to do his...
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A kind of... An escalator can never be broken.
Guest:It can only become stairs.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But yeah, no, but see, I think you've, in the last few specials, I guess probably since Sleepwalk with me, you kind of came into yourself more.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's like, I think everyone's doing that though, right?
Guest:I think, I think the thing that I have in common with Geraldo is that it was filmed early.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like I got a few things on TV and then so people can see me as a collection of my influences before I find myself or found myself.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I wonder if that's – I find that I'm more aware of my influences now.
Marc:And when I watch old stuff of mine, it's weird because it's not – I never – I'm always kind to myself, except in my first year or two.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Then I had an attitude that wasn't really mine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, like, most of the time I'm like, well, you know, you're not there yet, but I can see me in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't really know exactly who my influences are –
Marc:Because they happen in moments.
Marc:You know, like I know if I do, like there have been beats where I'm like, oh, it's just like a Gaffigan beat.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Or there's like a way, I've become more clear about my homages or where, like I track where they come from when I see them.
Marc:Like that bit at the end of End Times Fun, which was this, you know, operatic bit where, you know, Mike Pence is blowing Jesus.
Marc:I knew in my mind, like, this is to honor Hicks.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Because it's structurally not exactly what I do anymore.
Marc:But there was a time where that kind of, that type of anger flow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, this is for him.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:Only I know it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But why?
Marc:Who do you think your influence were?
Marc:Early it was Hedberg.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had the like, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where does, like, because I talked to this guy and I don't, I put it together before.
Marc:But where does Andy Blitz factor in?
Yeah.
Marc:With me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I never saw Andy Blitz.
Guest:Other than like every now and then.
Marc:At Luna.
Guest:Luna Lounge, I'd run into him.
Guest:But no, I didn't.
Marc:We just look alike.
Marc:No, there's like he does a thing.
Marc:It's a lot slower than you.
Marc:But I think that like, you know, the kind of like, well, you know, like there was a thing, but you never.
Guest:No, I think he's funny, but I don't know his work at all.
Guest:Oh, you didn't absorb it?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:He was a writer at Conan.
Guest:I was an intern, maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I think we crossed over.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think we have a similar talking style.
Marc:That's fine.
Guest:And we have a similar hairline.
Guest:We have a look similar.
Guest:But, yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:So, was Hedberg mostly?
Guest:Hedberg, I would say, was my biggest influence.
Guest:Stephen Wright was a huge influence.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That was the first one.
Guest:So Stephen Wright was, I saw when I was 16 at the Cape Cod Melody Temp.
Guest:My brother Joe took me and it changed my life.
Guest:But that's not, neither of those are really the style of jokes you do.
Guest:No.
Guest:And so then, and then what happened was I did The Moth 2003.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, and it was, it was interesting.
Guest:You talk about like finding yourself.
Guest:It's like at The Moth, you have to be yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's what Luna was for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the podcast.
Guest:You have to.
Guest:There's no version of the moth where you see someone's story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's not them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, they direct you.
Guest:They dramaturg it.
Guest:It was the first time where, like, I truly had, like, Catherine Burns was my director.
Guest:And she kind of taught me how to teach, tell an eight-minute story.
Guest:And it was.
Guest:Oh, so that introduced you to long form.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and then I did that, and that introduced me to Ira Glass, This American Life, and then he did a bunch of stories with me, and he really taught me just how to tell a story.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then how to, you know, find— And the Bob and Tom stuff, too, right?
Guest:Yeah, Bob and Tom was huge because they let me do my secret public journal, which was like this piece I wrote, which is like a travelogue, and I would call in.
Guest:And so, yeah, there were a lot of people—
Guest:That moved you towards long form.
Guest:Long form, yeah.
Guest:And also, like, when I was in college, I wanted to be a screenwriter.
Guest:I just wanted to write movies and plays.
Guest:I didn't even want to be a comic.
Guest:I just wanted that.
Guest:And then I got out of college, and I was like, oh, no one wants that job.
Guest:No one has that job.
Guest:No one's offering that job.
Guest:It's a weird thing when you realize from your college naivete that, like, no one's waiting for you.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:No, if you decide this world, it's all on you.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:To push it out there.
Marc:So let me ask you, like early on, we talked about, you know, the parts of your father that you're infected with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't really address that in the show.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:It's sort of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not sure I do either.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it's this whole other zone of possibility.
Guest:Yeah, sometimes my brother Joe calls me Vince Jr.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In what situations?
Guest:I think because of my intensity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I...
Guest:I think that the thing that's confusing to people sometimes when they know me versus they see me on stage is that on stage, I seem relaxed.
Guest:And offstage, I'm pretty intense.
Guest:I'm not mean, but I'm intense.
Marc:Yeah, I think maybe that was one of the reasons I sort of was resentful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, this guy's not being honest.
Guest:But I can explain why.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It actually makes sense.
Guest:Because I've thought about a lot.
Guest:Ira Glass brought it up on my podcast recently, where he's like, he's like, in real life, you're super intense.
Guest:And on stage, you're really relaxed.
Guest:And I go, Ira, it's because on stage, I'm relaxed.
Guest:It's actually because it makes sense.
Guest:I'm in charge.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have complete control.
Guest:Complete control.
Guest:So in my life, I'm like fucking flipping out of control.
Guest:And I'm like, I got to hold on to something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'm intense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On stage.
Guest:It's just me talking.
Guest:If there's a heckler, I have a line.
Guest:I can handle it.
Guest:I've been doing this a long time.
Guest:So it's like on stage.
Guest:I fucking I'm pretty happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you decide.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I find this sometimes at parties.
Guest:People go like, oh, comedians.
Guest:I met this comedian at a party.
Guest:He wasn't that funny or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, but we suck at parties.
Guest:Comedians suck at parties because it's a bunch of people talking to each other.
Guest:And I'm like, no, no, shut the fuck up.
Guest:I have the best story.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's not about me enough.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But not even that.
Guest:It's not about someone being like— You amateurs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you amateurs, it's like, oh, one time I sleepwalked through a second story window and they're like, oh, let me tell you my sleepwalk.
Guest:No, no, no, mine's better.
Guest:No, it's going to be better.
Guest:I've worked on it for years.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:No, that's interesting.
Marc:So, because I feel that too, but it wasn't always that way.
Marc:I mean, I think I got comfortable on stage where you have that moment where you realize like, oh, I live up here.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I live up here.
Marc:And, you know, when you're about to go on stage, at some point you're like, I'm not nervous at all.
Guest:That's why I always tell young comics, I go like, get on stage anywhere anyone will let you be on stage.
Guest:I, you know, you were in Sleepwalk with me, you played like the mentor comic in Sleepwalk with me, but it's like, it's like,
Guest:I performed, I hosted a lip sync contest at a college.
Guest:I did open mics.
Guest:I did coffee houses.
Guest:I would show up at bars when I was in college in D.C.
Guest:where it was an open mic where they didn't want comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would sign up and then I'd fucking go up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People would go, what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, that's how you get okay.
Marc:Overcoming those fears.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, but God, at the beginning, you're just like, for weeks, you're like, I gotta do five minutes.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:For weeks.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Fucking freaking out.
Marc:But what, so intensity, but are you an angry guy?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You didn't get that from your dad?
Marc:You don't blast off?
Guest:I don't know, no.
Guest:That was the thing that when I was a kid, I was like, I'm never going to do that.
Guest:I remember my dad flying off the handle.
Guest:I was like, I'm never going to do that.
Guest:I never yell.
Guest:You can ask all the people who work on the producers of my podcast and my wife and my daughter.
Guest:I do not yell.
Guest:It is baked into me.
Guest:It's possible it's all staying inside and feeding into a tumor that's forming in real time, but it doesn't come out.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do a bit about that.
Marc:Like, you know, like when you stifle anger, where you're like, God damn!
Marc:And then it goes inside you and it creates tumors with your parents' faces on them.
Marc:Oh my God, that's fucking funny.
Guest:It's funny because I had a joke about...
Guest:my anger going inside and forming into tumors until I die.
Guest:And Ira was like, take that joke out.
Guest:And I go, why?
Guest:And he goes, I don't think it's true.
Guest:I think it's like an old wives tale.
Guest:Like, I think it's like, it's like, Oh, he had a problem with the science of the joke.
Guest:The science of the joke.
Guest:I was like, all right.
Guest:I did take it out, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's funny how similar that joke.
Guest:That's a good parallel development example.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You and I basically had the same joke.
Guest:So yours is funnier.
Guest:It's a joke.
Guest:The pictures of your family.
Guest:Yeah, I took it one step into joke land.
Guest:Well, no, mine had a joke, too.
Guest:I just forget what it was.
Guest:You forget what it was.
Guest:But it was like, yeah, you had a funny one years ago that I loved, which was...
Guest:The chain reaction of anger.
Guest:Oh, this guy cuts you off and this and this.
Guest:It all somehow ends up in the Middle East.
Guest:People remember that joke.
Guest:That joke's great.
Guest:That's a classic.
Guest:That's like one of my first jokes.
Guest:That's a classic joke.
Marc:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:Why are you going, uh?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just take it as a compliment.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Guest:You're welcome.
Marc:No, I like the joke, but it's funny that there are people to this day remember that joke.
Marc:I don't know if I even did it on Letterman.
Marc:Maybe I did it on Conan.
Marc:Maybe I did it on my first Letterman.
Guest:Well, you were like a stand-up comic when stand-up comedy was in mono, before it was in stereo.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, like when there was 10 comics.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then I was in, there was 10 comics at the top, and then 20 in the middle, and then 50 at the bottom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was somewhere in the lower tiers, but yeah, I was around.
Marc:I don't think you were.
Marc:There was still only 100 guys.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Marc:You know.
Guest:Now there's like 1,000.
Marc:I don't even know how many.
Marc:Yeah, it's a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So do you find yourself...
Guest:What about your mom?
Guest:What did you get from her?
Guest:Well, like I said, my mom was like, nothing's fair.
Guest:Well, that, yeah.
Guest:Practical.
Guest:She has a really good— But real Catholic.
Guest:Very Catholic, yeah.
Guest:And I talk in the special, but I went to see the Pope last year.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:A bunch of comedians.
Guest:It was like Rock and Colbert and Conan.
Guest:That was kind of weird, wasn't it?
Guest:It was interesting.
Marc:But how'd that group get chosen?
Marc:Pope Francis.
Marc:I wasn't expecting to be on that list.
Marc:I have no resentment about that.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Good, good.
Guest:I think that it was some version of Colbert and the Vatican.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like emailing back and forth a group of people's names.
Marc:That's how I understand it.
Guest:Because he's a very out Catholic.
Guest:He's a very out Catholic.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So the Pope says, that guy, he's on board.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but my mom was very Catholic.
Guest:I was very Catholic.
Guest:I talk about it in the special.
Guest:I was an altar boy.
Guest:I was just full in.
Guest:And, you know, my mom, I think the biggest thing I learned from my mom is to laugh at yourself.
Guest:My mom is, like, always willing to...
Marc:lean into the character of herself you know and I just love that I just think that's a good attitude well I guess if you lean into you know if you're a believer and you know you're flawed and you're imperfect and you use Jesus to relieve you of that that there must be some acceptance of who you are if you have that relationship with Jesus
Guest:Yeah, that's an optimistic take.
Guest:I hope that's true.
Marc:You don't want to overuse Jesus.
Guest:No, you don't want to overuse Jesus.
Guest:To continue being bad.
Guest:My mom is one of these people...
Guest:And I think in some way I see this in my daughter sometimes.
Guest:It's like, you know, like my mom will be friends with anyone who wants friends.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:She's of service.
Guest:She's of service.
Guest:It's astonishing.
Marc:That's real churchy shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She'd be like, my friend Ellen was saying blah, blah, blah.
Guest:I was like, Ellen who?
Guest:Like, oh, this person I met at the grocery store.
Guest:You met someone at the grocery store?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But, like, that's what my mom is like.
Guest:And I'd like to think I picked up a little bit of that from her.
Guest:She's kind.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:You know, and that's what the end of the special ends on is all we have is these small acts of kindness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that's probably true.
Marc:I try to be kind.
Marc:Sometimes it's a little late.
Marc:Like now, this conversation?
Marc:We do fine.
Marc:Yeah, we're fine.
Marc:We are.
Marc:I don't have any, you know, like, whenever we do it, I have to reckon with the fact, like, you know, like, hey, Marco, what are you so hard on this guy for?
Marc:What the fuck is it really?
Marc:But, you know, I find that, like, my struggle in relation to other people or how I see it, it's just sort of the same thing as nothing's fair.
Marc:That there was a time...
Marc:Where literally you were doing one of the shows at the at the Bleecker Theater.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you were in the basement.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And to me, that was like, what the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How does like how, you know, younger than me.
Marc:Well, I knew how it happened.
Marc:I'm out of my mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you weren't.
Marc:Or it's controlled.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it was all based on this sort of like, you know, he's this palatable person.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's able to wrangle this thing into these shows and get all this attention.
Marc:And I'm down there yelling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:So it was really all rooted in that.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:But I'm letting it go.
Marc:I let it go every time we hang out and every time we talk.
Marc:You keep coming here.
Marc:True.
Marc:It's been a while, though.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Well, I think we went through—I mean, there was that thing with Lynn.
Marc:That was kind of upsetting to me.
Marc:And I don't know why I hold on to things, really.
Marc:But I'm always good with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You all right?
Guest:Yeah, I'm good.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like—yeah, I'm good.
Marc:What?
What?
Guest:No, I got nothing.
Guest:I got nothing.
Marc:There's nothing to process?
Guest:No, I just feel like whenever you talk about me on the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like people texted me last week.
Guest:You talked about me during the Nick Kroll episode.
Guest:Did I?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:You're like, I have a thing with him or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're like, do you guys all hang out with each other?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that kind of thing.
Guest:Jealousy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got all this text messages just being like, Mark's talking about you again in the show.
Guest:And then we talk on the phone and it's nice.
Guest:And then it's like, there's a premium episode where it called Mike Birbiglia called me.
Guest:And then you talk for 45 minutes about a 20 minute phone call we had.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I felt bad.
Marc:And the phone call was nice.
Marc:But no, but I felt bad because the whole thrust of that was like, I'm mad, and then I say a thing, I don't feel great about it, and then you text me, and I'm like, oh, fuck, now I've got to really deal with it.
Marc:And by the time that happens, I feel bad about what I've done.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's just this dumb thing that I got from my father is like, you focus, you get angry, you say some shit, and then it's out of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:the component of it that's missing is that, well, you hurt someone's feelings and, you know, that was the arc of that.
Marc:So now you're fine, but it also puts me in a position to where like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry, like to defy you to accept me.
Marc:And I think that was my whole dynamic with my old man.
Marc:And I used to do that joke on stage.
Marc:You know, like I do this little thing where I push the audience away, push them away and then pull them back and pull them back.
Marc:Then I push them away to see if I can pull them back.
Marc:It's a little dynamic I call dad.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, my version of that, actually, and this circles back to your question, are you angry?
Guest:I have this joke from Old Man in the Pool.
Guest:Well, not a joke.
Guest:This is a piece of writing from Old Man in the Pool where I go, I write in my journal every few nights because I find if you write down what you're saddest about or angriest about, you can, I forget what the line is.
Guest:It's like, if you're saddest about, you're angriest about, oh, you can start to see your own life as a story.
Guest:And at a certain point,
Guest:hopefully you can encourage the main character to make better decisions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, that is why I journal.
Guest:Like, the things in my journal are fucking wild.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, they're fucking angry.
Guest:They're spun out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't... You don't have to live in it.
Guest:I don't... Well, no, I live in it.
Guest:No, I do live in it.
Guest:But it becomes a story once you write it down.
Guest:Yeah, it becomes a story.
Guest:So, like, a lot of, like... Like, a few years ago, I did a special called The New One, and it was all about...
Guest:how i never wanted to have a child and then all the reasons you should never have a child and then how i had a child and how i was right yeah and then how i was wrong and that's kind of the emotional landing of the show and it's a lot like a lot of that show is me fucking writing in my journal for all those years of feeling like i'm completely left out of the like mother daughter relationship i'm the
Guest:fucking third person who no one gives a shit about.
Guest:I'm not really part of this thing.
Guest:And a lot of that stuff ended up being really good jokes.
Guest:But at the time, I was angry as fuck.
Guest:I was furious.
Marc:Well, even with the dynamic, and Nick's another guy.
Marc:Dude, I had to stop following him on Instagram.
Marc:Nick Kroll?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's different.
Marc:I think he's got a thicker skin than you, really.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:I don't know about that, but sure.
Marc:Well, maybe it's a funnier thicker skin.
Guest:Nick is funny.
Guest:Yeah, I've known Nick since he's 20 years old.
Guest:I know, he told me.
Guest:And he's so fucking, he was always funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's the thing about Nick.
Marc:He's funny in his bones.
Marc:Totally gifted comedian guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So I had to stop following him on Instagram because I got tired of looking at his gilded childhood.
Marc:Oh, that's so funny.
Marc:Like, you know, it's just like so much love around him.
Marc:He really does have a lot of love.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And it just kept coming up.
Marc:I'm like, I just can't fucking take this anymore.
Marc:Too much love.
Marc:This guy's got everything.
Yeah.
Marc:And I think if I can be honest with you in terms of like why I – it's all me, dude.
Marc:You know, whatever this thing is with me and you.
Marc:It's all me and I know that.
Marc:But I have a total inability to see my place in the world.
Marc:And I'm not very good at gratitude.
Marc:So the phantom limb that I live with is that I feel that people are doing better than me or they're being treated better than me.
Marc:They're being received better than me.
Marc:It's fundamental insecurity.
Marc:But we're sitting in my house.
Marc:I'm doing okay.
Marc:I'm doing good.
Marc:I'm doing everything we should be doing.
Guest:I'm doing a special.
Marc:I'm acting in movies.
Marc:But there's still part of me that's sort of like, well, fuck Birbiglia and the show, that one-man show.
Marc:I'm like, I don't even know what that is, but it's not real.
Marc:And I'm sorry that I act on it.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Marc:and i won't i don't i won't talk shit about it it's always like and i know it doesn't make me look good and i know it's just it no it doesn't read as anything other than what it is mark is is at times a resentful insecure jealous cunt and i don't know why he is that because he's doing fine and it doesn't serve me i get it maybe this will be the episode that finally buries it yeah for me it's my own fucking problem
Guest:You know what cured me from jealousy when I wrote Don't Think Twice was realizing, I started to analyze jealousy.
Guest:I was like, I had this realization.
Guest:You can't be jealous of something someone has.
Guest:Or that's not you.
Guest:You can only be jealous of – you can only truly be jealous if you would trade your life one for one with that person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you think about the person you're jealous of, you're like, no, I would never fucking do that.
Marc:I'd never trade my life one for one with that person.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Yeah, I find that like a lot of times I'm jealous of things that I wouldn't even be right for.
Marc:They have nothing to do with me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's really a fundamental insecurity that I guess I wrestle with a lot.
Marc:Still, I don't talk about it as much.
Marc:But, yeah, it's not attractive.
Marc:How's your sister Gina?
Guest:Gina's good.
Guest:Patty's good.
Guest:Joe's good.
Guest:I've been very blessed with, like, hashtag blessed, siblings that are cool and, like, taught me a lot about life and art and comedy.
Marc:Gina, it's so funny because—
Marc:Like, I knew Gina when she was Nina Rosenstein's assistant.
Marc:Yeah, in the 90s.
Marc:Right, and I was at Comedy Central doing short attention span theater.
Marc:And this whole arc of—Nina is the person that—she's my person at HBO.
Marc:She's the one that pushed through my last two specials.
Marc:She's really cool.
Marc:But, like, I knew her when I was a kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's been this whole life, and all of a sudden I land back with her, and it's so amazing.
Marc:It's so good.
Marc:I love doing the special at HBO.
Marc:Because when I was coming up, that's all there was.
Marc:That's all there was.
Marc:Yeah, that was the big thing.
Marc:And also, it's like a curated place.
Marc:Your special's not going to drop, and then three days later you're like, I can't find it.
Marc:Is it on the homepage still?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I feel like I've been given...
Guest:I feel like the media universe has been evolved in a period of time where my comedy went from not having a home.
Guest:It never quite fit with HBO because HBO was more edgy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it never quite fit with Comedy Central because what I do is more theatrical.
Guest:And grown up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I never really had a home until Netflix came along.
Guest:And now I'm just like, oh, this is perfect.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because there's no commercials, thank God.
Guest:And it reaches everybody.
Guest:And the people who need to find it, find it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then those people are fucking super fans because it's like, so what I'm doing is really specific.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I find that too.
Marc:Specific differently.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, yeah.
Marc:And then when you start to – it's interesting when you start to build a fan base and you see them out there.
Marc:And, like, I look at them and I'm like, how are you people?
Marc:The people – like, because you're going to manifest what you honestly are.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:And mine are all – they're all grown-up people.
Marc:They're good people.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But some of them look much more well-adjusted than me.
Marc:But I'm glad I entertain them.
Guest:Yeah, I always have that when people come up to me in Brooklyn.
Guest:And there's always – whenever someone comes up, it's always like this –
Marc:pear-shaped middle-aged ogre who's just like i totally relate to everything you're saying i'm like oh great i look like that guy yeah yeah inside inside all right good talking to you man thanks man this is good thanks for having me there you go we did okay me and mike uh again his special the good life is now on netflix hang out for a minute folks
Marc:Hey, people, for Father's Day, we posted a new WTF collection for Full Marin listeners, this one featuring dads.
Marc:It's got stories about fatherhood from Matt Damon, Bill Burr, Jack Gallagher, John Glazer, Hank Azaria, Ron Funches, and a recent visit with Barry Marin.
Marc:Do you remember this dog?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Penny.
Guest:When did you have that dog?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:But I remember him.
Guest:Penny, Penny, Penny.
Guest:Look at this.
Guest:That's your mom, right?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:How about this one?
Guest:That's grandma.
Guest:Do you remember her?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was she a nice lady?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did she talk much?
Guest:I don't remember her talking.
Guest:Was Barney her husband?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was he a character?
Guest:I didn't know him.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:He was dead already?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't remember him.
Guest:I love this picture.
Guest:It's Ben.
Guest:Your dad?
Guest:My dad.
Guest:Looks good in that pic, huh?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:You remember him talking much?
Guest:Yeah, more or less.
Guest:Look at this picture.
Guest:That was when you were a lifeguard?
Guest:Keppel Park, probably.
Guest:You're doing pretty good with this quiz of your life.
Guest:It's a dementia test.
Guest:That's the little dog.
Guest:Penny?
Guest:No, another one.
Guest:Inky.
Guest:Inky?
Yeah.
Marc:To get that collection and new bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin.
Marc:To sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:And now I will do a little guitar that's a little clunky.
Marc:But again, I love you, John Lennon.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey and Lavanda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.