Episode 1643 - Carol Leifer

Episode 1643 • Released May 15, 2025 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:11Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck nicks?

00:00:14Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:I'm Mark Marin.

00:00:17Marc:This is my podcast.

00:00:18Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:19Marc:I'm sitting here in my studio amongst random garbage detritus of my life, a life's worth of

00:00:28Marc:of detritus i'm sorry i just i've only been home a few days and i've been through a lot over the last couple years kind of burning into uh into that special that i taped on saturday and now right right away that it just picks up like all right what what are we going to do for the marketing what are we gonna do for the ads what do you like what what let's look at some pictures what are we doing

00:00:53Marc:Still coming down, man.

00:00:55Marc:But, you know, I don't... I'm making some progress, folks.

00:01:02Marc:And it's progress in a mental health kind of way, I think.

00:01:08Marc:I've talked to you about it.

00:01:09Marc:I've been on that...

00:01:12Marc:Busporin for a bit.

00:01:13Marc:And I can't really tell if it works.

00:01:15Marc:I can kind of tell because something's happening.

00:01:18Marc:Like I can, I can see the zone of my anxiety is somewhere in between who I am and the things I do to make myself crazy.

00:01:29Marc:Yeah.

00:01:29Marc:OK, some of those things are, you know, legit.

00:01:34Marc:There's no reason not to feel anxiety about certain things if they should cause anxiety.

00:01:39Marc:But there's there is reason to to perhaps not make it your life's work, which my life, it kind of is on some level, part of it.

00:01:50Marc:But I think the busborne is giving me a little space within who I really am now and what, you know, what I've become.

00:01:59Marc:and whatever journey I've been on and the things I've overcome to make me who I am and the part of my brain that's just sort of like, nope, you're not him.

00:02:08Marc:And hey, how come we haven't done anything today to feel shitty about ourselves?

00:02:11Marc:We don't have to.

00:02:12Marc:I can still beat the shit out of you for no reason.

00:02:14Marc:You want to get hypercritical about, how about your special?

00:02:17Marc:You remember that one line that you don't think went that well, even though they got two shows of it from nine different cameras?

00:02:23Marc:And maybe if you have to do ADR, you can do it, but that doesn't matter because you fucked it up.

00:02:27Marc:You fucked it up.

00:02:28Marc:You fucked

00:02:28Marc:Fuck.

00:02:30Marc:All right, let's move through that one.

00:02:33Marc:Let's let that go.

00:02:34Marc:But, you know, it's always right there for you.

00:02:38Marc:There are some things that I shouldn't feel anxious about that I do.

00:02:40Marc:Food, my looks.

00:02:42Marc:It's just there is what I'm realizing is that there's a whole...

00:02:48Marc:World of my brain that is constructed a certain way because of things that happened when I was younger that just wants to generate detritus.

00:03:02Marc:just garbage, you know, just kind of psychic detritus that just stacks up.

00:03:08Marc:And then I'm like, how do I even clean this?

00:03:11Marc:How do we get rid of this?

00:03:12Marc:I've got a neural pathway full of psychic detritus and in all types of forms and shapes, memories, moments, patterns.

00:03:26Marc:So,

00:03:27Marc:I guess what I'm saying is it's kind of working.

00:03:31Marc:I went to the shrink, made him get out of his house, not going to do Zoom for things that don't that, you know, where human interaction is possible.

00:03:43Marc:And I made him sit across from me and he gave me this sort of anxiety test, you know, and compared it to, I guess, the first time I was there.

00:03:52Marc:And he said, I'm about 30 percent better.

00:03:56Marc:He'd like 50.

00:03:58Marc:So I don't know.

00:03:59Marc:And I also think that I'm getting some side effects, but I'm not obsessed with them because I don't know if there are side effects from the medicine or just side effects for the fact that my life has been fucking stressful.

00:04:12Marc:for the last year or so, every day.

00:04:15Marc:Three jobs, always thinking, never a free moment.

00:04:20Marc:But I just, I wanted to explore with you that zone between like, you gotta be grateful, give yourself credit,

00:04:30Marc:for what you've overcome and who you are today.

00:04:32Marc:Like there's a lot of things like that.

00:04:33Marc:I'm not anxious about.

00:04:34Marc:I wasn't anxious about the special.

00:04:35Marc:I wasn't anxious about the material.

00:04:37Marc:I was a little, you know, you know, on the fence about my shirt and I was hoping my hair would work out.

00:04:44Marc:All right.

00:04:45Marc:But in terms of feeling fear going into it, zero, zero,

00:04:49Marc:Zero anxiety.

00:04:50Marc:But then I realized that that is who I am now, that I no longer have those fears.

00:04:57Marc:But my brain was sort of like, yeah, but we're pretty used to, you know, kind of making it difficult for you and having fears, you know, in general.

00:05:08Marc:So I'm glad that you're not fearing the thing you've worked on for two years and that you're ready to go.

00:05:13Marc:But let's do let's do these other ones.

00:05:17Marc:There's all kinds of dread we can muster up.

00:05:19Marc:And I know I've talked about this before, but I think that if anything is working, it's that...

00:05:25Marc:the medicine is giving me a little more space between who I am, where my brain's at now in terms of I'm okay.

00:05:37Marc:You know, I'm doing good work.

00:05:39Marc:I'm, you know, I've learned a lot of it, just all the stuff that represents, you know, the whole person, but I still got this fucking garbage factory in my head, a goddamn detritus generator.

00:05:54Okay.

00:05:55Marc:Yeah.

00:05:56Marc:Psychic detritus generator.

00:06:00Marc:Right?

00:06:00Marc:Huh?

00:06:02Marc:Today on the show, I'm talking to Carol Liefer.

00:06:05Marc:She's been on the show a while back, and I like her a lot.

00:06:10Marc:She was on, like, back in 2011, so it's been a long time.

00:06:13Marc:That was episode 203.

00:06:15Marc:But she's a stand-up of the generation of Seinfeld and Larry David and, you know, a little younger than Richard Lewis.

00:06:23Marc:But from that crew,

00:06:25Marc:She just recently won an Emmy for her writing on the show Hacks.

00:06:29Marc:And she's got a new book out called How to Write a Funny Speech.

00:06:34Marc:How to Write a Funny Speech.

00:06:36Marc:That's helpful for you people.

00:06:38Marc:I guess, you know, I don't know if it's still number one, but it used to be the biggest fear people have is public speaking.

00:06:44Marc:But now it seems like not enough people are afraid of it.

00:06:48Marc:I guess public speaking, when you do it alone in a room with your phone and you're speaking into it, is different than actually getting out there amongst the people.

00:06:59Marc:Putting it on the fucking line, man, where you can't fucking do another take.

00:07:05Marc:Delete it.

00:07:07Marc:Do another take.

00:07:08Marc:Delete it.

00:07:08Marc:Do another take, man.

00:07:09Marc:You got one shot at this fucker.

00:07:11Marc:Maybe two.

00:07:13Marc:Yeah, I'm talking about my special, which should be out in July.

00:07:17Marc:I think the date is July 26th.

00:07:19Marc:Also, that show I did with Owen Wilson, Stick, that trailer's getting around.

00:07:25Marc:I guess that's premiering on June 4th, I think.

00:07:29Marc:I should be more on top of these things.

00:07:31Marc:I should promote myself more, or at least the things I'm involved with, right?

00:07:36Marc:The bad guys is coming.

00:07:37Marc:But anyways, fear of public speaking.

00:07:41Marc:Not enough of that going around.

00:07:44Marc:I think maybe some people should just turn it off.

00:07:47Marc:Shut it down.

00:07:49Marc:All right?

00:07:50Marc:You know, I know you're charismatically engaging in whatever it is you do for 30 seconds at a time.

00:07:58Marc:But are you adding anything?

00:08:02Marc:Or are you just some content detritus?

00:08:09Marc:Yeah.

00:08:10Marc:Is that it?

00:08:12Marc:So now that I'm opening up this space in between who I am currently and all the things that have made me who I am, that I've worked hard cognitively to manifest, and the detritus mill...

00:08:29Marc:In my mind.

00:08:32Marc:And in that zone where I have this space, you know, it's time to figure out what do I enjoy that isn't immediate gratification?

00:08:41Marc:What do I enjoy?

00:08:42Marc:What things would you like to be doing, Mark?

00:08:44Marc:Would you like to sit down and read more books?

00:08:46Marc:I don't think so.

00:08:49Marc:Would you like to maybe take in more films and art?

00:08:54Marc:Only if it's good and it's well referred, you know, thoroughly vetted by people I respect who can tell me that it's great.

00:09:04Marc:Would you like to travel more?

00:09:06Marc:I don't know.

00:09:06Marc:I don't love it.

00:09:09Marc:You know, pitch me some places.

00:09:11Marc:This is the other part of my brain, by the way.

00:09:14Marc:Would you like to buy some other things like a new car?

00:09:17Marc:Why?

00:09:18Marc:Why?

00:09:20Marc:Just because I can?

00:09:21Marc:Would you like to get better at guitar?

00:09:25Marc:Yes, but I never seem to do it.

00:09:28Marc:I don't, you know, I practice and I play, but it's still within my comfort zone.

00:09:32Marc:And sometimes I add new notes from new scales I learned, but I guess that's progress.

00:09:37Marc:Would you like to do more music in your life, maybe with other people?

00:09:41Marc:Yes, yes, I would.

00:09:42Marc:But then you have to make plans and arrange things.

00:09:47Marc:Would you like to get rid of some of the books and pieces of things that you've collected over many years, either on purpose or not, and get rid of them?

00:10:02Marc:God damn it.

00:10:03Marc:Yes, I would.

00:10:04Marc:God damn it.

00:10:05Marc:But would that bring you joy?

00:10:06Marc:Maybe.

00:10:09Marc:Maybe some relief, but I've got to get beyond relief and into the joy thing.

00:10:14Marc:And I, you know, I'm back home and I'm just doing stuff.

00:10:16Marc:I'm cooking.

00:10:18Marc:I, you know, I'm trying to isolate.

00:10:19Marc:Like, what do you like to do?

00:10:20Marc:You know, I get up, you know, and I drink a lot of coffee.

00:10:24Marc:That guy, John from Lantern Coffee, Grand Rapids, Michigan, sent me some coffee and some chocolates.

00:10:31Marc:Fuck, dude.

00:10:32Marc:That shit is so good.

00:10:34Marc:I don't even know if you can get it online.

00:10:36Marc:Lantern Coffee.

00:10:38Marc:Nice of them to send it because it's weird because when you have an experience on the road and you're like, is this really the best I've had?

00:10:45Marc:Is this really amazing coffee?

00:10:47Marc:And you mention it on your podcast and then the guy sends you some and you're like, God damn it, it is.

00:10:54Marc:But anyways, so I do the coffee.

00:10:56Marc:I have several options of nicotine right now, which I could probably get off of.

00:11:02Marc:And then I exercise.

00:11:04Marc:But I like cooking.

00:11:05Marc:I started cooking.

00:11:06Marc:I like to have a full fridge of things I cook so I can have things to eat all week.

00:11:11Marc:But how about that?

00:11:12Marc:Maybe you should enjoy more food out.

00:11:14Marc:Why?

00:11:14Marc:I cook better at home.

00:11:16Marc:There's a lot of ways.

00:11:18Marc:Maybe you should spend more time with other people.

00:11:20Marc:But I do kind of.

00:11:23Marc:And do what?

00:11:26Marc:I got to figure it out.

00:11:27Marc:Because I just made some Indian food yesterday from scratch.

00:11:30Marc:I'm going to make some more.

00:11:33Marc:I look forward to it.

00:11:34Marc:But is that immediate gratification?

00:11:35Marc:Because I take time making things and I eat it really fucking fast.

00:11:42Marc:Look, if I can widen that zone between who I am and the psychic...

00:11:53Marc:garbage manufacturing plant in my head, maybe I can, you know, kind of stop, slow the plant down, you know, go through the garbage a little bit and then figure out some things I like to do.

00:12:06Marc:The problem is, it's just like, is this it?

00:12:12Marc:Is this it?

00:12:13Marc:And you know what?

00:12:13Marc:It kind of is.

00:12:15Marc:Even if you say, like, is this it?

00:12:17Marc:And I'm like, I'm not going to do it this way.

00:12:18Marc:I'm going to do it another way.

00:12:19Marc:Eventually, you're going to hit, is this it?

00:12:21Marc:You know, when does that sentence, when is that question answered?

00:12:26Marc:Is this it?

00:12:28Marc:Yes.

00:12:29Marc:And it's amazing.

00:12:33Marc:Is this it?

00:12:34Marc:I hope so.

00:12:35Marc:Wow.

00:12:37Marc:So good.

00:12:39Marc:Because as soon as, like, you know, you do that so good, and then, like, a couple days later, you're like, ah, it's okay.

00:12:47Marc:And you're just, then you're back to, is this it?

00:12:51Marc:God damn it.

00:12:52Marc:Just standing on a pile of fucking psychic detritus.

00:12:59Marc:Psychic detritus dump.

00:13:02Marc:I'm all right, though.

00:13:03Marc:The good part, I think that the part of me that, you know, feels proud of himself, feels like he's doing good work, enjoys things.

00:13:12Marc:He's going to win, man.

00:13:14Marc:I'm rooting for him.

00:13:16Marc:I'm rooting for him.

00:13:17Marc:Ooh, I found this coconut yogurt.

00:13:19Marc:Look, I'm a plant-based motherfucker right now who no longer says vegan because of annoying vegans.

00:13:25Marc:But Coco June coconut yogurt.

00:13:31Marc:Holy fuck.

00:13:34Marc:I was doing Coco Yo for a while because I like yogurt, but you want to get that probiotic stuff because, you know, it's supposed to be the answer to everything.

00:13:41Marc:Is this it?

00:13:43Marc:Is it probiotic?

00:13:44Marc:It is.

00:13:44Marc:Then yes, it is.

00:13:47Marc:But this Coco June stuff is fucking great.

00:13:51Marc:Isn't it exciting when you find something you love to fucking just stick in your fucking mouth and eat it?

00:13:58Marc:Isn't it the best thing when you're like, man, I'm just going to keep eating this until I don't like it anymore.

00:14:06Marc:It's great.

00:14:07Marc:See, I know joy.

00:14:08Marc:It's finding something that you just want to fucking shove into your mouth and keep eating until you're just like, you're beyond full, you're beyond happy, and you're just sort of in a world of fuck.

00:14:26Marc:How's that for an ad for a coconut yogurt?

00:14:28Marc:eat until you're in a world of fuck cocoa June yogurt it's very good though it's hard to do the non-dairy stuff and they just fucking nail it

00:14:42Marc:Okay, look, Carol Liefer is here.

00:14:45Marc:Her new book that she co-authored with Rick Mitchell is called How to Write a Funny Speech for a Wedding Bar Mitzvah Graduation and Every Other Event You Didn't Want to Go to in the First Place.

00:14:56Marc:It's available now wherever you get books.

00:14:58Marc:And this is me and Carol talking.

00:15:09Marc:So Kathy Radman is opening for me.

00:15:13Marc:That is so great.

00:15:14Marc:For the special.

00:15:16Marc:Fantastic.

00:15:17Marc:And, you know, I knew her when I was a door guy at the comedy store when I was 22.

00:15:22Marc:I used to see her.

00:15:24Guest:I didn't know you were a door guy at the comedy store.

00:15:27Marc:Yeah, it was a brief period.

00:15:29Marc:It was almost a year.

00:15:29Marc:I got very fucked up on drugs, and I had to leave.

00:15:32Marc:But I was a door guy in, I guess it would be, 86, 87.

00:15:37Marc:Okay.

00:15:39Marc:So I used to see Kathy, like, you know, when she was, like, young.

00:15:43Marc:Yeah.

00:15:43Marc:And I always liked her.

00:15:45Marc:I never thought she liked me.

00:15:46Marc:But I think she has one of those personalities where, like, anyone could assume that about her.

00:15:50Yeah.

00:15:52Marc:I don't think she likes me.

00:15:54Marc:She's just very, you know.

00:15:56Marc:But I decided, like, I'm going to have her open for me because, for one, as we were talking about before we turned the mics on, there's this Jewish thing that doesn't... You know, Jews sort of dictated what comedy was for decades.

00:16:14Guest:Yes.

00:16:15Yes.

00:16:15Marc:And it's just gone.

00:16:17Marc:I know.

00:16:18Marc:And, you know, it was the sort of through line of American stand-up, American comedy, writing, everything.

00:16:24Marc:It was all that rhythm.

00:16:25Marc:It was all from that.

00:16:26Marc:Yes.

00:16:27Marc:And it's gone.

00:16:28Marc:The people that do it are gone.

00:16:29Marc:But she's still here.

00:16:31Marc:She is.

00:16:31Marc:And you're still here.

00:16:32Marc:Yes.

00:16:32Marc:And she's got a very specific...

00:16:34Marc:kind of delivery that is very nostalgic for me, but also very true to what, you know, I grew up with.

00:16:41Guest:Yes.

00:16:42Marc:And I just thought like, well, that would be nice to have that.

00:16:44Guest:Oh, she's a great opener for you.

00:16:46Guest:And I've been working with her a lot.

00:16:48Marc:Yeah.

00:16:48Guest:Me, her and Wendy Liebman.

00:16:49Marc:Yeah.

00:16:50Marc:Oh, really?

00:16:50Guest:Yeah.

00:16:52Guest:Mother's Day.

00:16:52Guest:We're going to be at Flappers and Burbank.

00:16:54Marc:Really?

00:16:55Marc:Yes.

00:16:55Marc:Do you tour with it out in the world?

00:16:57Marc:I do.

00:16:58Marc:And what do you call it?

00:16:59Marc:Is there a name for the tour?

00:17:00Marc:Is it like three Jewish ladies or something like that?

00:17:04Marc:Her-larious.

00:17:08Marc:Of course.

00:17:10Guest:It has to be that name.

00:17:11Marc:Why didn't I figure that out?

00:17:12Marc:Why didn't I guess that?

00:17:14Marc:Her-larious.

00:17:17Marc:And what do you guys do, like 20 each, half hour each?

00:17:19Guest:We do a half hour each.

00:17:20Guest:We just headline the Comedy and Magic Club.

00:17:24Guest:We have a great, great time.

00:17:26Marc:Yeah?

00:17:27Marc:Yeah.

00:17:27Marc:I bet.

00:17:28Marc:And this is not an insult.

00:17:29Marc:Have you thought about playing Jewish things?

00:17:33No.

00:17:33Guest:Of course we have.

00:17:34Guest:Yes.

00:17:36Guest:Yeah, we did Tarzana.

00:17:39Guest:We did a country club in Tarzana that was about 99% Jewish.

00:17:44Guest:And it's fantastic.

00:17:46Guest:But I do a lot of speaking at temples, at JCCs.

00:17:52Marc:You do?

00:17:52Guest:Federation.

00:17:53Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:17:53Guest:That's very big on my docket.

00:17:56Wow.

00:17:56Marc:What do you mean?

00:17:58Marc:This is a speaking engagement, so you're a writer, comedian, producer, whatever.

00:18:03Marc:We'll discuss her life and show business.

00:18:05Guest:Exactly.

00:18:06Marc:Okay.

00:18:07Guest:Judaism is in my DNA.

00:18:09Marc:Right.

00:18:10Marc:Yeah.

00:18:11Marc:Okay.

00:18:11Marc:So that means what?

00:18:14Guest:So I talk a lot about, Mark, my Jewish upbringing.

00:18:18Guest:Yeah.

00:18:20Guest:You know, how it's impacted me through my life.

00:18:24Guest:And then people love my story in show business because I've been around for so long.

00:18:31Marc:Right.

00:18:31Marc:And like, I know we covered probably a lot of it way back, but it's been a long time.

00:18:35Marc:But I mean, like you were a standup, like I remember you from being around when I was younger and, uh, and then you were a writer forever.

00:18:44Guest:Yes.

00:18:45Marc:But what was the first writing game?

00:18:47Guest:My first writing job was on SNL.

00:18:50Guest:Oh yeah.

00:18:51Guest:In 85.

00:18:52Marc:Was that the weird year when Lauren was gone?

00:18:54Guest:Yes.

00:18:55Guest:Yes.

00:18:55Guest:The weird year.

00:18:57Marc:Uh huh.

00:18:57Marc:And who brought you in?

00:18:58Well,

00:18:58Guest:What happened was I auditioned.

00:19:00Guest:There was a showcase at the comic strip.

00:19:03Guest:And Al Franken saw me with Jim Downey, who was the head writer for many years.

00:19:09Guest:And right after they approached me and said, we'd really love for you to be on the writing staff if you're into it.

00:19:16Guest:Am I into it?

00:19:19Guest:You just have to meet Lauren.

00:19:21Yeah.

00:19:21Guest:So, you know, I was ready to move from L.A.

00:19:25Guest:back to New York to do this and got ready for my meeting with Lauren and had everything planned and my outfit and the whole thing.

00:19:33Guest:And I went to this rehearsal hall to meet him where he was auditioning cast members for that season.

00:19:40Guest:And he came out.

00:19:41Guest:And he said, hello.

00:19:43Guest:And then he said, I don't do a good Lauren.

00:19:45Guest:He said, Jim and Al said, you'd be great for a writing job.

00:19:49Guest:You know that it's a lot of late nights.

00:19:51Guest:And I said, yeah.

00:19:52Guest:And he said, okay.

00:19:53Guest:And he went back to the room.

00:19:55Guest:And that was my meeting with Lauren Michaels.

00:19:57Marc:And then he was gone, though?

00:19:59Marc:Did he leave?

00:20:00Marc:Was that the year he wasn't around?

00:20:01Marc:No, no.

00:20:02Guest:That was the year he was around.

00:20:03Guest:It's just a story of, you know, my 32nd meeting with Lauren Michaels to get a writing job on SNL.

00:20:10Marc:Oh, you had met him many times before?

00:20:11Guest:No.

00:20:11Marc:Never.

00:20:14Guest:No, that was it.

00:20:15Marc:And how long were you there?

00:20:17Guest:I was there that season.

00:20:18Marc:That was it?

00:20:19Guest:Yeah.

00:20:19Marc:What happened?

00:20:21Guest:They got rid of most of the cast and most of the writers after that season.

00:20:27Guest:But I was part of a murderer's row of writers that year.

00:20:31Marc:Who was there?

00:20:32Guest:Smigel, Don Novello, John Swartzlander, George Meyer, Jack Handy.

00:20:39Guest:Yeah.

00:20:40Guest:Yeah, it was...

00:20:42Guest:Pretty great crew.

00:20:43Marc:It's so wild, man.

00:20:44Marc:Like, cause I'm just starting to feel this sort of, I'm 61.

00:20:47Marc:So I'm just starting to feel like, holy shit.

00:20:49Marc:And because of COVID, I theoretically should be 58.

00:20:52Marc:Yeah.

00:20:55Marc:You know, like it happened to all of a sudden I'm like, what happened?

00:20:58Marc:It's like, well, we lost three years.

00:21:00Guest:Yeah.

00:21:01Marc:But now I'm looking around and I imagine it happened for you.

00:21:05Marc:Like it just happens where all your peers were like older people.

00:21:09Marc:Yes.

00:21:10Marc:And it's bizarre.

00:21:11Marc:I know.

00:21:11Marc:Because you hold them in your memory as so like you're young people.

00:21:15Marc:Yeah.

00:21:15Marc:And now all of a sudden I'm looking at my contemporaries like David Cross or, you know, Todd Berry or some of the guys I started out with at Tell.

00:21:22Marc:And I'm like, we're the old guys now.

00:21:24Marc:Yeah.

00:21:25Marc:The fuck happened?

00:21:26Marc:It's crazy.

00:21:27Marc:Right?

00:21:27Marc:It is crazy.

00:21:28Marc:Absolutely.

00:21:29Marc:Yeah.

00:21:30Marc:And the other thing we were talking about before, which like I realized, you know, after Richard, you know, passed away, like I don't know what exactly happened.

00:21:40Marc:Why, you know, like everything else, comedy became non-Jewish.

00:21:45Marc:Yeah.

00:21:46Marc:It frightens me, but I also understand it.

00:21:49Marc:I used to have a theory that, you know, once antidepressants were introduced, you know, the tolerance for Jewish complaining was... Was enough already.

00:21:57Marc:Was diminished, right.

00:21:59Marc:Like, you know, you'd see Richard Lewis.

00:22:00Marc:I'm like, you know, they have medicine.

00:22:02Yeah.

00:22:04Marc:We can solve this.

00:22:04Marc:Yeah, screw your act.

00:22:05Marc:Yeah, yeah, we solved this problem.

00:22:06Marc:There's meds.

00:22:07Marc:Exactly.

00:22:08Marc:Yeah.

00:22:08Marc:But I don't really know what happened, but I guess like lately I've been, you know, kind of nostalgic for it.

00:22:15Marc:Because I don't see, anytime I see somebody who is fundamentally Jewish, like have you seen Robbie Hoffman?

00:22:21Marc:She's on Hacks this season.

00:22:23Guest:Yes, yes, yes.

00:22:24Marc:That is crazy.

00:22:27Marc:She's so funny.

00:22:28Marc:She's so funny, but she grew up Orthodox in this community where they still speak Yiddish.

00:22:34Marc:So she's actually like predates, you know, modern comedy Jews.

00:22:39Marc:She has this delivery that's genuine, but it's like just post Yiddish.

00:22:44Marc:It's crazy.

00:22:45Marc:Wow.

00:22:46Marc:Yeah.

00:22:47Marc:So what this public speaking thing, because I know you wrote this book.

00:22:50Marc:Yeah.

00:22:51Marc:And when I looked at it, I was sort of like, I'm not even sure I know how to do public speaking.

00:22:56Marc:Really?

00:22:57Marc:Well, I mean, anytime I've done it, I'll write things down.

00:23:04Marc:But I don't think in terms of the structure or who I'm talking to.

00:23:08Marc:There was a brief period where I would go out and make myself available for keynote type of things.

00:23:12Marc:Yeah.

00:23:13Marc:But eventually I just get too personal and I do.

00:23:15Marc:It's not that I'm doing my act.

00:23:17Marc:Yeah.

00:23:17Marc:I just get too honest.

00:23:18Marc:And they're sort of like, what is it?

00:23:19Marc:It doesn't fall within the expectation of what public speaking is.

00:23:25Guest:Yeah.

00:23:25Guest:But I would think because Rick Mitchell, who I wrote this book with, who is a comedian and wrote on Ellen's talk show for many seasons.

00:23:37Guest:Yeah.

00:23:37Guest:Usually comedians, I love speaking at events, and he does too.

00:23:42Guest:I would think that you would love, you know, not, you know, specifically keynotes for corporations or groups, but that I would think people would go to you right away for a wedding or...

00:23:56Guest:Memorial.

00:23:57Marc:No.

00:23:58Marc:No?

00:23:58Marc:I've never done either of those.

00:24:00Guest:Wow.

00:24:00Guest:I'm very surprised.

00:24:02Marc:So do you have a chapter for memorials?

00:24:04Guest:Yes.

00:24:05Guest:Yes.

00:24:05Guest:Absolutely.

00:24:06Guest:Because you know what I've found, and especially at our age, going to more memorials.

00:24:13Guest:I know.

00:24:14Guest:I really enjoy speaking at them because I find it to be very cathartic for me personally.

00:24:23Guest:But also, in the book, we talk about, you know, people are afraid to be...

00:24:29Guest:funny at Celebrations of Life.

00:24:31Marc:I've seen people kill.

00:24:32Marc:Right?

00:24:33Marc:Kevin Nealon at Gary Shandling's memorial was the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life.

00:24:37Guest:I saw that.

00:24:37Guest:I was there.

00:24:38Guest:Oh my God.

00:24:39Marc:Amazing.

00:24:40Marc:I was there too.

00:24:40Marc:It was crazy.

00:24:41Guest:Yes, yes.

00:24:42Marc:So funny.

00:24:42Guest:But to bring up

00:24:44Guest:certain stories about someone.

00:24:46Guest:People love it.

00:24:48Guest:Like, I just spoke at my cousin's memorial.

00:24:54Guest:He passed away of cancer at 55.

00:24:56Marc:Oh, God, that's too young.

00:24:58Guest:Yeah.

00:24:59Guest:And the thing that everybody loved about him, he was a great people person.

00:25:04Guest:Social butterfly, just so much fun.

00:25:07Guest:So I told this story about how we had gone to see the Beach Boys together, him and his wife and me and my wife, at the Greek.

00:25:15Guest:And I said afterwards, we were invited to the little after party, and I said, I really want to go over to Mike Love of the Beach Boys and say hello because I opened for them in 1982 at Harrah's in Lake Tahoe.

00:25:31Guest:I want to see if he remembers me.

00:25:33Marc:He's out of his mind though, right?

00:25:35Guest:Mike Love?

00:25:36Guest:Yeah.

00:25:37Guest:I don't know if he's out of his, yeah.

00:25:39Guest:I just know him as a beach boy.

00:25:41Marc:He's just a beach boy.

00:25:42Guest:Yeah.

00:25:42Guest:But anyway, so we're at the little after party and I'm trying to work my way over to Mike.

00:25:47Guest:I can't do it.

00:25:48Guest:I don't see my opportunity.

00:25:49Guest:I go to get a drink at the bar.

00:25:51Guest:I turn around.

00:25:52Guest:My cousin Jay is talking to Mike Love like he's known him for 40 years.

00:25:56Guest:Yeah.

00:25:56Guest:So much so that when I walk over, Jay is like, oh, hey, Carol, come here.

00:26:01Guest:Hey, Mike, do you remember my cousin Carol?

00:26:03Guest:She opened for you a million years ago.

00:26:06Guest:And people loved, I loved telling that story and people loved it because it really encapsulated who my cousin was.

00:26:15Guest:So, yeah, we do talk about.

00:26:17Marc:Did he remember you?

00:26:18Guest:No.

00:26:21Guest:No, not for a second.

00:26:23Marc:Did he even politely say that he did?

00:26:26Guest:He just kind of nodded.

00:26:28Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:26:28Guest:You know, the vague nod.

00:26:29Marc:Yeah, because they don't pay attention who's the opener.

00:26:32Guest:No, and it turned out to be the worst gig of my life.

00:26:35Marc:Really?

00:26:36Marc:Yes.

00:26:37Marc:It's that memorable.

00:26:38Marc:But you still wanted to see if he remembered you.

00:26:41Guest:I just wanted to see.

00:26:42Marc:What if he had said, like, oh, you had a hard, tough night that night.

00:26:45Guest:I would have appreciated that because they used to tune up while I was still on stage.

00:26:51Guest:And I had to go backstage.

00:26:53Guest:I had no manager or agent with me and, you know, go like, Beach Boys, can you please not tune up while I'm out there?

00:27:01Guest:So I thought maybe, you know, he'd even maybe apologize this many years later.

00:27:07Marc:But none of that's important to the piece of the memorial.

00:27:10Marc:Yeah.

00:27:10Marc:See, I would bring that stuff up.

00:27:12Marc:Right?

00:27:12Marc:See, that's my instinct.

00:27:14Marc:Yes.

00:27:14Marc:It's like you do the funny thing about the guy and then he'd go, yeah, but I'm a little pissed off.

00:27:19Marc:That would make it about me somehow.

00:27:21Guest:But that's fine.

00:27:22Guest:I mean, people would, if I had added that into the story, they would have still enjoyed it, I think.

00:27:27Marc:Well, that's the one thing about that audience.

00:27:29Marc:You know, the worst that can happen is they walk out going, it's a little weird.

00:27:35Guest:No, but I love giving speeches and that's why.

00:27:37Marc:Like when you break it down, though, like let's say for a memorial, what are the points?

00:27:42Yeah.

00:27:42Guest:The points are to reminisce about qualities about the person that you remember, that people remember.

00:27:50Guest:Stories.

00:27:50Guest:Stories in any speech are the gold of a speech.

00:27:55Guest:And also, you know, being heartfelt.

00:27:59Guest:It's always important.

00:28:01Guest:i feel at the end of speech to not be you know joe comedian and uh wrap it up with something heartfelt yeah and uh certainly with my cousin jay it was easy because his death was really hard and such a great person and to lose his life at such an early age as you know um it's it's difficult yeah

00:28:24Marc:For everybody.

00:28:25Marc:Yeah.

00:28:26Marc:And acknowledge that, acknowledge your own feelings about the loss.

00:28:29Marc:Don't be afraid to have to emote.

00:28:31Marc:You don't have to, you know, be funny necessarily.

00:28:34Marc:Yeah.

00:28:34Marc:Though I would imagine as a comic and writing this with a comic, you know, you have to sort of try to give advice how to balance that out.

00:28:41Guest:Yes.

00:28:42Marc:Like, like, like I just said, it's like, you can make it about yourself if it's appropriate for the event and include, you know, and it's part of the story.

00:28:51Marc:Yeah.

00:28:51Guest:Yes, but to veer away from yourself and focus on the person.

00:28:58Marc:So there's weddings?

00:29:00Marc:Yeah.

00:29:00Marc:So that would be some more thing you focus on?

00:29:02Guest:Well, look, there are basics that people don't know that we could not believe.

00:29:08Guest:Like, keep it five minutes and under your speech.

00:29:13Marc:Do a type five.

00:29:14Guest:Oh, my God.

00:29:14Guest:How many times have you gone to a wedding, an event...

00:29:19Marc:There's booze involved, so you don't know what you're going to get.

00:29:21Marc:Exactly.

00:29:22Marc:Do you say don't drink too much before you talk?

00:29:24Marc:We say have a drink.

00:29:27Marc:Right.

00:29:27Guest:Have one drink.

00:29:29Marc:Right, yeah, yeah.

00:29:30Guest:But then people have seven more.

00:29:33Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:29:33Guest:And then they are hammered up there, and how uncomfortable is that?

00:29:37Marc:It's memorable, but uncomfortable.

00:29:39Marc:Yeah.

00:29:40Guest:And people are recording it.

00:29:41Marc:Yeah, of course.

00:29:42Guest:Yeah.

00:29:43Guest:So this is important now more than ever.

00:29:46Marc:Sure.

00:29:46Guest:Yeah.

00:29:47Marc:And what are the other chapters for?

00:29:50Marc:Like a business or like what?

00:29:52Marc:I mean, I guess I could look in the table of contents.

00:29:55Guest:Well, there are a lot of basics, Mark.

00:29:57Guest:Yeah.

00:29:58Guest:Because, as I mentioned, a lot of people are not aware of them.

00:30:03Guest:Were you at Richard Lewis's memorial?

00:30:05Marc:No.

00:30:05Guest:Oh, okay.

00:30:06Marc:I was out of town.

00:30:07Okay.

00:30:07Guest:Well, it was a really, you know, nice memorial.

00:30:12Marc:Oh, this just happened a couple weeks ago.

00:30:13Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:14Guest:But, you know, people get up and they start talking about the person and they don't say who they are to the person.

00:30:23Guest:Right.

00:30:23Guest:So you're up there, they're up there and you're sitting there thinking, is this a relative?

00:30:28Guest:Yeah, I don't know this guy.

00:30:30Guest:Is this a roommate?

00:30:30Guest:Went to campus?

00:30:31Guest:And that's distracting your brain.

00:30:36Guest:Yeah, NCIS.

00:30:37Guest:Who?

00:30:38Marc:What?

00:30:39Guest:So for people to go up and say who they are to the person, that's important too.

00:30:45Guest:But we do go into how to make something funny with steps.

00:30:52Guest:But even if you're not, you don't feel like doing the work,

00:30:57Guest:We have a whole section at the end of what we call jokes to steal.

00:31:00Guest:Oh, good.

00:31:00Guest:For any occasion.

00:31:01Guest:Right.

00:31:01Guest:Take the jokes.

00:31:02Guest:Oh, good.

00:31:02Guest:Put them in your speech.

00:31:04Guest:No one will know.

00:31:07Guest:That's good.

00:31:08Marc:That's helpful.

00:31:08Guest:And templates, Mark.

00:31:09Guest:We have templates where you just kind of fill in the blanks.

00:31:12Marc:Really?

00:31:13Guest:Like Mad Libs.

00:31:14Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:31:14Guest:Yeah, wanted to make it easy.

00:31:16Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:31:17Marc:Easy for people.

00:31:17Marc:It's very helpful.

00:31:18Marc:Yes.

00:31:18Marc:Because it's one of those things I would think this book would sell because it is the most terrified, the scariest thing.

00:31:25Marc:It's the top of the list most of the time.

00:31:27Marc:Right.

00:31:28Guest:Most people's greatest fear is talking in front of large groups of people.

00:31:32Marc:Yeah.

00:31:32Guest:But comedians' greatest fear is not talking in front of large groups of people.

00:31:38Marc:Or bombing in front of large groups of people.

00:31:40Marc:Yeah.

00:31:40Marc:That's the greatest fear.

00:31:42Marc:It's like I can talk in front of people, but there's that moment where you're like, I don't know if this is going to go too well.

00:31:49Marc:Because we know what we're there to do.

00:31:51Marc:Yes.

00:31:52Marc:And you see the challenge of it and you're like, oh, fuck.

00:31:56Marc:It's odd that no matter how long you do this, like there's that sixth sense that happens when you're backstage and you're just like listening or assessing an audience.

00:32:04Marc:You're like, that table.

00:32:06Marc:That's going to be a problem.

00:32:08Guest:You can tell.

00:32:09Marc:You can.

00:32:10Marc:Yeah.

00:32:10Marc:It's crazy.

00:32:11Marc:It is really.

00:32:12Marc:Like there's an energy in the room.

00:32:13Marc:You're like, there's something wrong over stage right.

00:32:15Marc:Yep.

00:32:15Marc:What is it?

00:32:16Marc:And then you're like, that's that guy.

00:32:18Yeah.

00:32:19Guest:You can't.

00:32:21Guest:It's like a radar that we have.

00:32:22Guest:It's crazy.

00:32:23Guest:That's very strange.

00:32:24Guest:You know what's so funny?

00:32:25Guest:I just did Pete Holmes' podcast.

00:32:28Guest:And he said something that I've never heard before but is so true.

00:32:33Guest:He said, do you ever find you have a bad set?

00:32:38Guest:And the next set after that is good.

00:32:41Guest:Kind of almost guaranteed.

00:32:43Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:32:44Marc:Yeah.

00:32:44Guest:You find that too?

00:32:45Marc:Well, yeah.

00:32:47Marc:Because, you know, whatever you put out, like it happens like if you do a spot at the comedy store in the main room and then you got an original room spot, the main room can kind of go either way.

00:32:57Marc:Because it's a big room and no matter how many people in there, it can be less than satisfying.

00:33:02Marc:Yeah.

00:33:02Marc:And you might have a hard time connecting.

00:33:04Marc:But when you do two in a night and you've already put yourself out like that.

00:33:08Marc:Yeah.

00:33:08Marc:And you have to put that like little bit of armor on that you used to do all the time.

00:33:13Marc:Yeah.

00:33:14Marc:You know, the next set, you're going to be like, fuck you.

00:33:18Marc:Exactly.

00:33:19Marc:You can't hurt me.

00:33:20Marc:Yeah.

00:33:20Marc:I just was pummeled down the hall.

00:33:23Guest:And it's like, it is like a self-preservation thing.

00:33:27Marc:Sure.

00:33:27Guest:Like, I'm not going to go home tonight upset over my dead body.

00:33:32Marc:You don't want to.

00:33:33Marc:Yeah.

00:33:33Marc:You know, I've said that on stage at the comedy store before.

00:33:36Marc:Like, you know, whatever happens here, I'm not going to drive home thinking I made the wrong decision with my life.

00:33:41Marc:So...

00:33:42Marc:You're not going to do that to me or I'm not going to do that to myself.

00:33:46Marc:Yeah.

00:33:46Marc:But there is that idea where you're excited to do it and you know you're good at it.

00:33:50Marc:And then you just it's just part of the job.

00:33:51Marc:You go out there and it wasn't good.

00:33:53Marc:And then you're like, oh, fuck.

00:33:55Marc:And then you got to go at the next one a little harder.

00:33:57Marc:Absolutely.

00:33:58Marc:You know, until you find the zone where you can let it down a little bit.

00:34:02Guest:Yeah.

00:34:03Marc:Yeah.

00:34:03Marc:I mean, our life is crazy.

00:34:05Marc:And I've gotten very you get spoiled, too.

00:34:08Marc:When you have an audience, like I make sure I go do the store just so I can perform for people that don't know me.

00:34:14Marc:You know, like if I go out to the theater.

00:34:16Guest:Well, I'm surprised.

00:34:17Guest:I would think when you go out on stage, people know you.

00:34:20Marc:No, I'm not.

00:34:21Marc:I'm not like that.

00:34:21Marc:My profile is not that big.

00:34:24Marc:Like they're not.

00:34:25Marc:I'm not in every household name or anything.

00:34:28Marc:So like it's going to be people that kind of know me or don't know me.

00:34:31Marc:But people do know me.

00:34:32Marc:But if I go do my audience, they all know me.

00:34:34Marc:It's almost like cheating.

00:34:36Yeah.

00:34:36Guest:Right, but it's good for you.

00:34:38Marc:Yeah, it's nice.

00:34:40Marc:But that spoils you in a couple ways.

00:34:42Marc:Because then sometimes I'll do clubs where I know that they didn't necessarily all come for me because I'm working it out at a comedy club, not a theater.

00:34:51Marc:No, there's no walk-ups at theaters.

00:34:53Marc:I don't know what's going on tonight.

00:34:55Yeah.

00:34:55Marc:But like sometimes if like if I get to I talked about last night on stage, I had a bridal party, you know, a bachelorette party at the comedy work.

00:35:04Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:35:05Marc:But like I knew most of them were my audience.

00:35:07Marc:Now I got to babysit these fucking idiots.

00:35:09Marc:And I was like, how can it was?

00:35:11Marc:It was a long story.

00:35:13Marc:But I mean, the point is, is like I forced myself to go do the regular work just to stay tough.

00:35:19Marc:That's good.

00:35:20Marc:Right.

00:35:20Marc:You know what I mean?

00:35:21Marc:Just to see if this shit works with an unsympathetic bunch in a 15-minute slot.

00:35:28Guest:And also following, I'm sure, some heavy hitters.

00:35:32Marc:I still get mad about that.

00:35:35Marc:I have not been able.

00:35:36Marc:Because I know when you have 15 minutes and you're after somebody that's a killer, you're like, well, shit, now the first five is fucked.

00:35:45Guest:Exactly.

00:35:46Guest:You got to work your way out of the hole.

00:35:48Marc:I've got tricks that I can do with certain performers because you end up following some of the same people.

00:35:55Guest:Can you tell me one of your tricks?

00:35:58Marc:Oh, well, like, Pauly doesn't kill necessarily, but he's Pauly.

00:36:02Marc:Yeah.

00:36:03Marc:And he's one of these guys.

00:36:04Marc:There's a tradition at the comedy show.

00:36:06Marc:Some performers bring the lights in.

00:36:08Marc:They'll have the spotlight as opposed to the full stage lighting.

00:36:11Marc:He's one of those guys.

00:36:12Marc:Him and Argus, they do this thing.

00:36:13Marc:Alan Stevens used to do it.

00:36:15Marc:But where they have a choice, so they get the spotlight as opposed to full stage lighting.

00:36:19Marc:Yeah.

00:36:19Marc:So, like, he does his thing.

00:36:20Marc:And people are excited.

00:36:21Marc:He was a big star.

00:36:23Yeah.

00:36:23Marc:And, you know, and then the lights come back out and then he brings me up.

00:36:28Marc:And generally, just to clear the slate, I'll say, Pauly Shore, ladies and gentlemen, I'll go, yep, that's what he looks like now.

00:36:38Marc:I use the same line for spade, too.

00:36:43Guest:Well, there you go.

00:36:44Guest:Now you're off to a good start.

00:36:46Marc:You're in.

00:36:46Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:47Guest:Exactly.

00:36:48Marc:Or if I have to follow Whitney Cummings or Eliza Schlesinger, I always get up and go like, okay, let's just take it down a notch.

00:36:58Marc:Or I'll say, let's shift from, you know, whatever, whatever to cranky Jew.

00:37:03Marc:Like anything that'll get me, you know.

00:37:05Guest:Oh, that's really smart.

00:37:06Marc:Yeah, because you only got 15 minutes.

00:37:07Guest:Yeah.

00:37:08Guest:See, I can't, I don't work at the store.

00:37:10Guest:I can't get on there.

00:37:12Marc:Really?

00:37:12Marc:Yeah.

00:37:13Marc:I don't know.

00:37:13Marc:They just change bookers.

00:37:14Marc:I don't know what's going on there.

00:37:15Marc:Where do you work?

00:37:16Marc:Improv?

00:37:17Guest:I work a lot at Comedy Magic Club.

00:37:21Yeah.

00:37:21Marc:Do you live over there?

00:37:22Guest:No.

00:37:23Guest:Well, I live on the west side.

00:37:24Marc:Well, that's good.

00:37:25Marc:Yeah.

00:37:25Marc:For me, I'm like, that's like a different state to me.

00:37:30Marc:I'm like, do you ever work there?

00:37:31Marc:I'm like, I don't even know how to get there.

00:37:35Guest:Well, it's in Hermosa Beach.

00:37:36Marc:I know.

00:37:37Guest:Yes.

00:37:37Marc:It's like an hour from here.

00:37:39Guest:And I do the Laugh Factory a lot.

00:37:41Guest:You know what I love to do is Kevin Nealon's New Material Night.

00:37:45Guest:Have you done that?

00:37:46Marc:Oh, really?

00:37:46Marc:Where's that?

00:37:47Marc:At Laugh Factory?

00:37:47Guest:At the Laugh Factory.

00:37:48Guest:But you have to go up and it has to be all new material.

00:37:52Guest:How great is that for us?

00:37:53Marc:That's great.

00:37:54Marc:Comics.

00:37:54Marc:And how's the crowd?

00:37:56Guest:They're great.

00:37:56Marc:Yeah?

00:37:57Guest:They're great.

00:37:57Guest:And just, you know, normally when we have to go up and shoehorn in a new bit here, shoe, you know, between two... So you can bring your notebook if you want?

00:38:06Marc:Absolutely.

00:38:07Marc:Yeah.

00:38:08Marc:Someone does that in the belly room at the store sometimes.

00:38:09Marc:I think Fahim does it, where you can just work out shit.

00:38:13Guest:It's fantastic.

00:38:14Marc:It's a great world we live in now because of podcasts and everything else is that people like to be part of the process.

00:38:18Marc:That was unheard of before.

00:38:20Guest:Yeah.

00:38:20Marc:You know, I used to bring notebooks up and people were like, no, what the fuck?

00:38:23Marc:Is he...

00:38:24Marc:Is he going to school?

00:38:26Marc:Yeah, he doesn't have this shit worked out already.

00:38:28Marc:We paid for a pro show.

00:38:29Marc:Does he do that every week?

00:38:31Marc:He does it once a month.

00:38:33Marc:Oh.

00:38:33Marc:Yeah.

00:38:34Marc:He never asked me.

00:38:34Marc:He asked me to go on his hiking show, but he doesn't ask me to do his new material now.

00:38:38Guest:Well, you know what?

00:38:38Guest:But that's the thing.

00:38:39Guest:I reach out to him and say, can I come on?

00:38:42Marc:Do it and work it out?

00:38:43Guest:Yeah.

00:38:44Marc:Yeah.

00:38:44Marc:And you got a bunch of new jokes and you do it?

00:38:47Guest:And I love it because, as you know...

00:38:50Guest:With 10 new bits, maybe two or three will work.

00:38:55Guest:But they're there to hear even the clunker ones.

00:39:00Guest:And you know when you have a new bit that works.

00:39:02Guest:There is no better feeling.

00:39:04Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:39:05Marc:But I imagine, like, I think we probably work differently structurally.

00:39:08Marc:Like, I go up with an idea and hope that the punchline comes.

00:39:12Marc:I imagine.

00:39:13Marc:And then I'm sort of like, oh, it happened again.

00:39:15Marc:The gift.

00:39:16Marc:Yeah.

00:39:16Marc:But I think that you're probably more structured and you write the joke.

00:39:19Marc:Yes.

00:39:19Marc:It's good.

00:39:21Marc:Whenever I come up with a well-structured joke off the cuff, I'm like, well, I know how to do that.

00:39:27Marc:Why don't I do it more often?

00:39:28Guest:But you have a new hour that you're doing.

00:39:33Marc:Yeah, it's like an hour and a half.

00:39:34Guest:Yeah, hour and a half.

00:39:36Guest:So that takes a lot of working out.

00:39:39Marc:Yeah, it works out, but it's all sort of oral tradition with me.

00:39:42Marc:Like, you know, I have premises and I have bits and pieces, and they all kind of become fluid over repetition, and it just naturally kind of forms itself.

00:39:51Marc:You know, it's all in my head, though, which is, you know, that can go either way.

00:39:55Marc:You lose a lot of stuff.

00:39:56Marc:Yeah.

00:39:56Marc:Like, if you work with solid jokes, you have them.

00:39:59Marc:You're like, what was that one?

00:40:00Marc:Oh, I have it written down.

00:40:01Marc:With me, I just have, like, cats.

00:40:04Marc:You know, and then...

00:40:06Marc:Which one, you know?

00:40:08Marc:So it's not the most efficient way, but it all keeps me on my toes, which I think is part of it.

00:40:14Marc:But you never went through a period where you stopped doing stand-up?

00:40:18Guest:I did a little bit during writing for Seinfeld.

00:40:22Guest:I stopped, but I learned my lesson the hard way.

00:40:26Guest:Then I went back up on stage after a couple of years of not going on stage.

00:40:31Guest:And then it was like, oh, holy shit.

00:40:34Guest:I'm losing all the experience that I had before.

00:40:41Marc:It's interesting, right?

00:40:42Guest:You know, it's like a muscle.

00:40:43Marc:It's like a gym.

00:40:45Marc:Use it or lose it.

00:40:46Marc:Yeah.

00:40:46Guest:So since then, I always keep it.

00:40:51Marc:Yeah.

00:40:51Marc:It's like going to the gym just to like to stay in that relationship.

00:40:55Guest:Completely.

00:40:55Marc:Yeah.

00:40:56Marc:And that's great.

00:40:57Marc:But and also you're doing like a real show.

00:40:58Marc:You're doing working.

00:40:59Guest:Yeah.

00:41:00Marc:And you're still and you wrote.

00:41:02Marc:I mean, I can't.

00:41:03Marc:You wrote that.

00:41:03Marc:You were on the staff of that last Oscars.

00:41:06Guest:Yes.

00:41:06Marc:With Conan.

00:41:08Marc:Mm hmm.

00:41:08Marc:So funny.

00:41:09Marc:Yeah.

00:41:09Guest:Wasn't he amazing?

00:41:11Marc:Well, you know, I've known him forever.

00:41:13Marc:Like, I was a recurring guest on a show.

00:41:16Marc:I used to do panel.

00:41:17Marc:I always wanted to be... Oh, on the NBC show?

00:41:19Marc:Yeah, I always wanted to be the Richard Lewis to him.

00:41:22Marc:Like, I wanted to... Like, I did two stand-up sets early on, 96, probably.

00:41:26Marc:And then from there on out, I'm like, can I just do panel?

00:41:28Marc:I want to be the panel guy.

00:41:29Marc:I want to be the guy that comes, sits down, and you're like, uh-oh, what's going on with Mark, you know?

00:41:34Marc:So we built that relationship.

00:41:35Marc:So I've known him a long time, and I know how he works.

00:41:39Marc:And it was a very funny thing watching it because I saw him at Largo like two nights before kind of working shit out.

00:41:47Guest:I'm so surprised that nobody taped it and leaked it.

00:41:50Marc:Yeah, I don't know.

00:41:50Marc:There's only certain people that do that.

00:41:54Marc:And at Largo, that's not really the audience that would do that.

00:41:57Marc:Yeah, that's true.

00:41:59Marc:No one ever does that to me, ever.

00:42:02Marc:Ever.

00:42:02Marc:And if they did, it's not going to be a viral thing.

00:42:06Marc:They'll achieve the disappointment I do when I post a reel on Instagram.

00:42:11Marc:They think they got some hot item with my bit that I haven't done on a special yet, and it's got 200 views.

00:42:15Marc:I'm like, you really got me?

00:42:17Marc:I guess I can't do that on the special.

00:42:20Marc:So I'm watching Conan, and like...

00:42:23Marc:And I turn on the Oscars because I love the Oscars.

00:42:27Marc:I always have.

00:42:27Marc:I like I like I felt over the last few years, there was a sense of what I grew up with in terms of the community of Hollywood showing up.

00:42:37Marc:It's not that it's no longer there.

00:42:39Marc:They're just old or they're gone.

00:42:41Guest:Yeah.

00:42:42Marc:So, you know, you're not going to see Jack sitting up front anymore because he's 100 and I'm not sure how well he is.

00:42:47Yeah.

00:42:47Marc:But I miss him, you know, so.

00:42:49Marc:Yeah.

00:42:49Marc:So there's this changing of the dynamic.

00:42:52Guest:Exactly.

00:42:52Guest:It's still the greatest show on earth.

00:42:54Marc:I love it.

00:42:55Marc:I love the spectacle of it.

00:42:56Marc:But I didn't know how Conan would do.

00:42:58Marc:And I know Conan and like I'm watching it and I watch him come out and he does the first joke.

00:43:04Marc:And then he started to do that thing he does where he you know, he has a moment of insecurity and he buries the joke.

00:43:10Marc:You know, like he'll like, I know, whatever.

00:43:13Marc:Like it's an it's an insecure thing.

00:43:14Marc:And I'm like, don't do it.

00:43:15Marc:And then like after the first two jokes, he was like, yeah, all like he he just killed so hard.

00:43:22Marc:And the confidence was so it was like it was beyond anything I've seen from.

00:43:27Guest:Yeah.

00:43:27Guest:But you know what?

00:43:28Guest:I knew he was going to do great because right before the show, I went backstage to wish him luck.

00:43:34Marc:Yeah.

00:43:35Guest:And he was you could see it in somebody's just the way they are.

00:43:39Guest:He was cool as a cucumber.

00:43:40Guest:And he was like, thanks, Carol.

00:43:42Guest:You know, I just want to go out there and I want to have fun.

00:43:46Guest:And that's what he did.

00:43:48Marc:Yeah.

00:43:48Guest:But I've seen that look of panic before a host goes on.

00:43:52Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:53Guest:And he just was in the zone.

00:43:55Marc:And he brought it back to what I thought the set was tasteful, like, you know, the way it looked, you know, and I thought the way they handled the audience was good.

00:44:03Marc:And I just thought it came because I asked him that night I saw him.

00:44:06Marc:I said, you're going to do musical number?

00:44:07Marc:He's like, I don't know.

00:44:09Marc:And then he fucking did one.

00:44:10Marc:Yeah.

00:44:10Marc:And it was just like it was totally his own thing.

00:44:13Marc:a Conan musical number, but he brought back the sort of weird celebration of the structure of the show.

00:44:22Marc:Yeah, he did.

00:44:23Marc:And it was great.

00:44:24Marc:So what were the conversations about that in the writer's room?

00:44:27Guest:Well, Conan had his own team of writers, and I'm part of the team that handles the show part.

00:44:33Guest:Okay, yeah.

00:44:34Guest:So we talk with the presenters and go over the things that were not Conan-related.

00:44:42Marc:Okay.

00:44:42Marc:Oh, so you're writing the bits for the people that present?

00:44:45Guest:Yes.

00:44:46Marc:Oh.

00:44:47Guest:Yeah.

00:44:47Guest:And I'm usually on the show team.

00:44:50Guest:You know, I've worked on it.

00:44:51Guest:This is my 11th time.

00:44:53Marc:In a row?

00:44:55Guest:No, not in a row.

00:44:56Marc:Yeah.

00:44:56Guest:Over a number of years.

00:44:58Guest:But, you know, I've written for some of the great hosts, like Billy Crystal and Steve Martin and Alec Baldwin and Whoopi.

00:45:05Marc:Alec Baldwin hosted?

00:45:07Guest:Yeah.

00:45:08Guest:Yeah, with Steve Martin.

00:45:09Marc:Okay.

00:45:10Guest:Yeah.

00:45:10Marc:I don't remember that one.

00:45:12Marc:I missed a couple.

00:45:14Guest:I remember it because Steve Martin wanted to have a writer session up at his house.

00:45:19Guest:And, you know, from when I came up, Steve Martin was like everything to me.

00:45:26Guest:I'm such a fan.

00:45:27Guest:And it was totally one of those moments of like, oh, my God, I'm in Steve Martin's living room writing jokes for them.

00:45:35Guest:It was really like...

00:45:37Guest:Yeah.

00:45:37Guest:If if I go now, I got that moment.

00:45:42Marc:Yeah, completely.

00:45:43Marc:Oh, wow.

00:45:43Guest:Completely.

00:45:44Marc:I feel like I've lost some of those moments having done this show for so long and, you know, kind of talking to people for long periods of time.

00:45:50Marc:Yeah.

00:45:50Marc:Like I just see people as people.

00:45:52Marc:But there are certain people that I'm like, oh, my God.

00:45:54Marc:You know, what am I going to do with this guy?

00:45:56Marc:How am I going to keep it together?

00:45:58Marc:Yeah, like who?

00:46:00Marc:Albert Brooks.

00:46:01Marc:Like it took me years for him to finally do it.

00:46:03Marc:And of course, he's like, he didn't want to do it at his house.

00:46:05Marc:He didn't want to come here.

00:46:06Marc:Yeah.

00:46:07Marc:So he got a room at that, what's that little...

00:46:10Marc:Little beautiful hotel on the Santa Monica.

00:46:13Marc:It's like a kind of old school kind of deco.

00:46:16Marc:It's very kind of boutique-y.

00:46:18Marc:I can't remember the name of it.

00:46:20Marc:But he gets a room there.

00:46:21Marc:And it was hilarious.

00:46:22Marc:It was just hilarious to talk to him.

00:46:25Marc:He was like...

00:46:28Marc:We were at Shandling's Memorial, and I'd been trying to get him for years on the show.

00:46:32Marc:I remember we were at Shandling's Memorial.

00:46:34Marc:Everyone's leaving.

00:46:35Marc:He comes up to me, puts his hands on my back.

00:46:37Marc:He goes, let's do it now.

00:46:43Guest:Oh, my God.

00:46:45Marc:And Larry was another one who would never come on the show.

00:46:47Marc:He never came on.

00:46:49Marc:Yeah.

00:46:51Marc:But he eventually did.

00:46:53Marc:How'd you get him?

00:46:55Marc:Well, he was doing those, you know, he was going to do those conversations, moderated conversations with him, you know, that he did, a few of them.

00:47:02Marc:Yes.

00:47:03Marc:And he wanted me to do the first one, so I did the first one.

00:47:06Marc:I didn't know it was going to be a thing, and he didn't either.

00:47:09Marc:But, like, oh, my God.

00:47:12Marc:And you worked with him a lot.

00:47:14Guest:Yes.

00:47:14Guest:Seinfeld and Kerb.

00:47:17Marc:I have to assume, and I love them, that you don't know what's going to happen.

00:47:25Marc:Leading up to it, the agreement we had was I could use it as a podcast, and it was live in D.C., a few thousand people.

00:47:33Marc:And I was going to structure it like I do here, to have kind of a life arc conversation.

00:47:40Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:47:40Marc:And, you know, and his assistant had sent me all these, you know, this screen, this montage of him through different years.

00:47:48Marc:Yeah.

00:47:48Marc:And I'm putting together this whole interview and he goes, what are we talking about?

00:47:52Marc:He's telling me.

00:47:54Marc:I'm like, well, I got the thing from your assistant.

00:47:56Marc:I thought we'd go through the whole life.

00:47:57Marc:He's like, what?

00:47:58Marc:What are you talking?

00:47:58Marc:What are you talking about?

00:47:59Marc:What are you talking about?

00:48:00Marc:You know, I don't know what you're talking about.

00:48:03Marc:I'm like this, you know, your bar mitzvah and everything.

00:48:06Yeah.

00:48:06Marc:So, like, by the time, you know, a few days before, he's like, I don't want to talk about any of that.

00:48:11Marc:I'm like, all right.

00:48:12Marc:So what are we going to do?

00:48:13Marc:Okay.

00:48:13Marc:He's like, I don't want to talk about politics.

00:48:15Marc:I want to just be entertaining and I don't want to talk about my life.

00:48:19Marc:Oh, fuck.

00:48:21Marc:And it was driving me crazy, you know.

00:48:23Marc:And then, like, you know, like the night before, you know, he calls me up.

00:48:27Marc:He's like, do whatever you want.

00:48:29Yeah.

00:48:31Marc:And then, like, the day of, I'm in D.C.

00:48:33Marc:for the show, and he calls me earlier in the day, and I literally thought, like, he doesn't want to do it anymore.

00:48:37Marc:That would be great.

00:48:39Marc:Maybe he won't want to do it.

00:48:40Guest:Add phone call, right.

00:48:42Marc:It would be a relief.

00:48:43Marc:But he's like, okay, you good?

00:48:45Marc:You ready?

00:48:45Marc:And it went great.

00:48:46Marc:I learned a big lesson, though, to just be gracious.

00:48:49Marc:It wasn't about me.

00:48:50Marc:And just throw to him the things that he's going to get laughs with that I know and that I know he wants to talk about.

00:48:59Marc:And then just shut up.

00:49:00Marc:And then wait until he peters out and then do another one.

00:49:03Marc:Yeah.

00:49:03Marc:And that's it.

00:49:04Marc:See?

00:49:05Marc:Yeah.

00:49:05Guest:Yeah.

00:49:06Marc:But when you go to Steve Martin's house, so were you able to kind of keep it together to pitch jokes and stuff?

00:49:15Guest:Yeah.

00:49:15Guest:I mean, after the initial shock of zooming out and, oh, my God, I'm sitting here writing jokes with my idol, Steve Martin.

00:49:24Guest:Yeah.

00:49:24Guest:Then, you know, you get back into it.

00:49:28Guest:Yeah.

00:49:28Guest:You know, Larry David, I know literally since my first date in show business, Mark, because, you know, he was the emcee at Catch, Catch Rising Star, when I did my open mic night, who put me through.

00:49:42Guest:So I do, you know, I know him forever.

00:49:47Marc:So you know how he works.

00:49:48Guest:Yeah, especially because working at Seinfeld and knowing how to pitch to him and Jerry, you know, was a great training ground also because, you know, Larry's very cut and dried.

00:50:04Guest:And I think that's really one of his greatest qualities because you can pitch something to him and they're like, no, you know.

00:50:10Guest:Yeah.

00:50:10Guest:The biggest put down at Seinfeld was like, no, I could see that on another show.

00:50:14Guest:Right.

00:50:17Guest:But if he was excited about an idea, he would get genuinely excited.

00:50:22Marc:Yeah.

00:50:23Guest:You know.

00:50:23Marc:Well, the funny thing that involved like with me engaging with him.

00:50:28Marc:Was I can make him laugh.

00:50:30Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:50:31Marc:You know, so that is good.

00:50:33Guest:Yeah.

00:50:33Marc:You know, because it's a rare thing sometimes, especially with funny people.

00:50:37Marc:But, like, he's got a great laugh and you can get him.

00:50:39Guest:Yes, you can.

00:50:40Guest:Yeah.

00:50:40Guest:I know that from Curb because he would break up all the time.

00:50:43Marc:Yeah.

00:50:44Marc:Yeah, so that was easy.

00:50:46Marc:But have you had trouble with non-comedic hosts?

00:50:51Marc:And I imagine presenters, you write these jokes and everyone's on board, but you don't know if they're going to dump them or not, or if they're going to pull them off.

00:50:59Guest:Yeah, you don't, but the beauty of working with people is they really do want to be good.

00:51:06Guest:They don't want to go, you know, it's really tough for them because...

00:51:10Guest:They're mostly actors, so they don't know how to go out and be themselves.

00:51:15Marc:Or be funny, necessarily.

00:51:16Guest:Yeah, but we really work with them to make sure that they're 100% down with what they want to do, and they give a lot of feedback.

00:51:25Guest:And, of course, we take it and come up with something.

00:51:29Guest:I think people also know that...

00:51:32Guest:As a stand-up also, they know when they work with me that I'm going to give – I know the feeling of going out there and being unsure or not knowing what you're going to do.

00:51:45Guest:So I think they have a sense of confidence that I'm going to give them something that they – because most of it is confidence going out.

00:51:53Marc:And also, the reason it doesn't work sometimes is that –

00:51:58Marc:When you're a comic or used to being funny in front of people, your instinct is to get the audience without even saying it.

00:52:06Marc:You know what I mean?

00:52:08Marc:All you're thinking about is if the thing's going to land, but you know how to do it.

00:52:13Marc:So I think if you don't know how to do that, you're just kind of flying blind a little bit.

00:52:18Guest:Yeah.

00:52:18Marc:Right?

00:52:19Marc:And you've got the thing on paper, and you don't know how to maybe put the twist on it to make it funny.

00:52:26Marc:Exactly.

00:52:27Marc:But it worked.

00:52:27Marc:I remember there was some funny stuff in this last one.

00:52:30Marc:And I just like that it came back to a host-driven thing as opposed to like, who's the host?

00:52:35Marc:Yes.

00:52:35Marc:You know, it worked out better.

00:52:37Guest:Yeah.

00:52:38Guest:And the times, I think there have been a couple of times, there's no host.

00:52:42Guest:I don't like that kind of show, and I don't think the audience does, because it feels rudderless.

00:52:49Guest:Totally.

00:52:49Guest:Yeah.

00:52:50Guest:You want someone, and when someone does it great, like Conan did, you know, who you look to as the host.

00:52:57Guest:Yeah.

00:52:58Guest:It's his party, and he's running the ship, and people like that.

00:53:03Marc:Totally.

00:53:04Marc:So, now, you've been on Hacks all four seasons?

00:53:08Guest:No, no.

00:53:09Guest:I was just on the last season.

00:53:11Marc:Really?

00:53:11Guest:Yes.

00:53:12Marc:Huh.

00:53:13Marc:Because I've been watching it.

00:53:15Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:53:16Marc:And I like it because I think it gets something right about stand-up.

00:53:20Marc:Yeah.

00:53:20Marc:That you don't, that they don't usually get right.

00:53:23Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:53:24Guest:And especially with Jean Smart.

00:53:25Marc:That's what I mean.

00:53:26Marc:Yeah.

00:53:26Guest:Yeah.

00:53:27Guest:I've never seen an actor play a stand-up comic and do it convincingly.

00:53:33Guest:And she does.

00:53:33Guest:I mean, you totally buy, don't you?

00:53:35Guest:100% that she's a comic.

00:53:37Guest:Yeah.

00:53:37Marc:Well, yeah, but I buy the life more.

00:53:40Marc:Like, you know, like I talked to Paul Downs about it.

00:53:43Marc:That's his name, right?

00:53:44Guest:Yes.

00:53:45Guest:And I listened to that.

00:53:46Marc:Yeah.

00:53:46Marc:That they're, you know, having known, you know, people that from the 80s who were relatively big, get shots, end up in Vegas.

00:53:55Marc:Like, I know that is an arc.

00:53:57Guest:Yes.

00:53:57Marc:That is a trajectory of a type of comic that came up in that time.

00:54:02Marc:And they were very specific about that backstory.

00:54:05Marc:Yeah.

00:54:05Marc:So that gave it all this kind of realness, you know, like it was authentic.

00:54:11Marc:Yes.

00:54:13Marc:And, you know, whether or not when they shoot her doing stand-up, I completely buy it.

00:54:18Marc:It didn't matter.

00:54:20Marc:You know, because there is some element of it that it's almost impossible to capture what it is that a stand-up is able to do.

00:54:28Marc:But if you get all the trappings right, it works.

00:54:31Guest:Yes, that's so true.

00:54:33Marc:Yeah.

00:54:33Guest:And I think a big reason why they brought me on was having come up in the 80s.

00:54:39Guest:Right.

00:54:40Guest:I know a lot about that world and what it was like.

00:54:44Guest:Yeah.

00:54:44Guest:So I hope that I added to her authenticity as being a comic and also as someone, you know, and then she's still around.

00:54:54Marc:Exactly.

00:54:55Guest:And like me.

00:54:56Marc:Yeah.

00:54:57Marc:But what was the pitch?

00:55:00Marc:Why this season?

00:55:02Marc:Was there specific stuff that they wanted for you that they thought, well, we need Carol to do this because we're going to be doing this?

00:55:10Guest:No, it wasn't that specific as much as...

00:55:13Guest:They have a thing called the Blue Sky Room that they do before each season where they get people together and just spitball ideas.

00:55:23Guest:And I think I had pitched a lot of ideas that seemed interesting.

00:55:29Guest:Interesting to them.

00:55:31Guest:So being of Deborah Vance's generation.

00:55:35Guest:Yeah.

00:55:36Guest:That I think that they found that they could find that helpful.

00:55:41Marc:Right.

00:55:41Guest:So of last season, the episode that I wrote was, you know, it was called One Day.

00:55:49Guest:And.

00:55:51Guest:The theme of it was— On the season we're in now?

00:55:53Guest:No, and season three was last season.

00:55:55Marc:Oh, one day.

00:55:56Marc:Which one was that?

00:55:56Guest:That was when she and Ava go hiking and they get lost.

00:56:00Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:56:00Marc:Right, right, right.

00:56:01Guest:And I had been talking in the room about how when you get to be Debra's age, my age, and you think about things that you want to do, like I still think about, oh, I'd love to have a little part in a Broadway show.

00:56:16Guest:Yeah.

00:56:16Guest:And I'd love to do this.

00:56:18Guest:And you think one day.

00:56:20Guest:Well, you know, one day is now.

00:56:23Guest:If it doesn't happen soon, maybe it's never going to happen.

00:56:26Guest:So that also became something that, you know, she talked about in that episode.

00:56:31Guest:And I think that is something that only an older person, someone of our generation, thinks about.

00:56:40Guest:Yeah.

00:56:40Guest:So not necessarily someone who's 30 years younger than me on the staff is going to think about it.

00:56:47Guest:Sure, yeah.

00:56:48Guest:I was happy to contribute.

00:56:49Marc:Oh, that's great.

00:56:50Marc:Yeah.

00:56:50Marc:Well, I mean, that whole world, like, it's not, like, I don't know that world, you know, the Vegas residency world.

00:56:56Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:57Marc:But I know it's a real thing.

00:56:59Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:56:59Marc:And that you're afforded this lifestyle because, you know, you're overpaid.

00:57:03Guest:Yeah.

00:57:03Marc:And you're given a place to live and they treat, you know, they'll give you all the money in the world if you can bring people into the casino.

00:57:10Marc:Absolutely.

00:57:11Marc:And there's like so many acts, certainly people from your generation that have done those, you know, but, and I know that like, who do I think about when I, when I think there's just people like every time I go to the Burbank airport and I see the signs, I'm like, Oh my God, they're going to be there for two months.

00:57:28Marc:Have you ever done those?

00:57:30Um,

00:57:30Guest:I haven't, but, you know, I have played Vegas a lot throughout my career.

00:57:35Marc:I never do it.

00:57:36Guest:No?

00:57:36Marc:It's not my thing.

00:57:38Marc:I don't think I'm right for it.

00:57:40Guest:Well, it depends on the act that you're opening for.

00:57:44Guest:But I certainly know, you know, from doing those gigs, the clock and the stage...

00:57:51Guest:And if they tell you to do 20 minutes, do 20 minutes.

00:57:55Guest:Because if you go over a minute, that's a million dollars they're losing in the casino.

00:58:01Guest:So they're strict about that.

00:58:03Guest:And, you know, all these little things.

00:58:05Guest:I mean, you know that I opened for Frank Sinatra in Las Vegas.

00:58:11Marc:You and Dreesen.

00:58:12Guest:That's right.

00:58:13Guest:And Larry Miller, who I had called beforehand to get some advice about the gig.

00:58:19Guest:I think he's doing okay.

00:58:20Marc:Okay.

00:58:21Guest:Yeah.

00:58:22Marc:He was so funny.

00:58:24Guest:The funniest.

00:58:25Guest:The funniest.

00:58:26Guest:But, you know, each of these gigs has their own roadmap that you have to kind of figure out.

00:58:35Marc:Yeah, I just don't...

00:58:37Guest:Yeah, you in Vegas doesn't really seem like it.

00:58:39Marc:It doesn't.

00:58:39Marc:And I'm okay with that.

00:58:41Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:58:41Marc:You know what I mean?

00:58:42Marc:Yeah.

00:58:42Marc:Like, the idea of just thinking about doing it.

00:58:45Marc:Because there's part of me that thinks, like, well, I can do a casino.

00:58:49Marc:But it would not be good for me.

00:58:52Marc:Yeah.

00:58:52Marc:You know, necessarily.

00:58:53Guest:Right.

00:58:54Guest:But, like, when I've done an opening for Seinfeld, that's a certain crowd.

00:58:58Guest:Yes.

00:58:59Marc:You know, because, like, yeah.

00:59:00Marc:I mean, and I never really opened for anybody.

00:59:03Marc:But I remember seeing Alan King in Vegas when I was there in high school or something.

00:59:08Marc:Oh, how great.

00:59:08Marc:When I met my grandparents out there.

00:59:10Marc:But it was weird because it was like a smaller showroom.

00:59:16Marc:It looked like it could have been a banquet hall on another day.

00:59:19Guest:Oh, so it wasn't one of the big showrooms.

00:59:22Marc:It didn't.

00:59:23Marc:Not in my recollection.

00:59:24Okay.

00:59:24Marc:And and he come out and, you know, he kind of, you know, kind of autopiloted through 45 minutes, no opener and left.

00:59:34Marc:And I was like, wow, that's that's the job.

00:59:36Marc:It's kind of weird when you see certain like, you know, comics like where they just get to a point where they're just filling a time slot.

00:59:45Guest:Yeah.

00:59:46Marc:You know, they're not going out there to kill.

00:59:49Marc:And I mean, he was already an older guy, so I don't know.

00:59:51Guest:Yeah, and I think that's also the trap, too, of doing your act for so long where you don't add any new material because it becomes like, you know, being in Oklahoma every night.

01:00:04Guest:You just kind of feel like doing your lines scripted.

01:00:08Guest:So that's why I think it's always important to do new material because it keeps you vibrant and into it.

01:00:15Marc:Yeah.

01:00:16Marc:So what happens now?

01:00:17Marc:What are you doing now?

01:00:19Marc:It's just a comedy.

01:00:20Marc:How's the family?

01:00:21Marc:Your kids must be older now.

01:00:22Guest:Yeah.

01:00:22Guest:My son is 18.

01:00:24Guest:He's a senior in high school.

01:00:26Guest:How crazy is that?

01:00:27Marc:It's crazy.

01:00:28Guest:Yeah.

01:00:29Guest:It happens.

01:00:30Guest:Yeah.

01:00:31Guest:The cliche is completely true.

01:00:33Marc:Yeah.

01:00:33Guest:It flies by.

01:00:34Marc:Really?

01:00:35Guest:Yeah.

01:00:36Marc:You have two or just?

01:00:38Guest:Just the one.

01:00:39Marc:Oh, just him.

01:00:39Guest:The one son.

01:00:40Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:00:41Guest:Yeah.

01:00:41Marc:He's doing all right?

01:00:42Guest:He's doing great.

01:00:43Guest:He's doing great.

01:00:44Guest:Yeah.

01:00:45Guest:He's a good kid.

01:00:46Guest:He's, you know, my wife, of course, got him into golf.

01:00:51Marc:Oh, really?

01:00:52Guest:Lesbian requirement.

01:00:53Guest:Is it?

01:00:57Marc:Yes.

01:00:57Marc:Do you play?

01:00:58Guest:I got to get back into it.

01:01:01Guest:But yeah.

01:01:02Marc:Is he good at it?

01:01:03Guest:He is good.

01:01:04Marc:Yeah.

01:01:05Marc:I've got this whole set of clubs I've never taken out.

01:01:07Marc:Like I did a show for Apple that there's a golf show.

01:01:12Marc:But I just played a caddy, an old caddy, so I didn't have to golf.

01:01:15Marc:But like it's Owen Wilson.

01:01:17Marc:It's all about golf.

01:01:17Marc:And I don't know anything about golf.

01:01:19Guest:Oh, you're doing that.

01:01:20Marc:I was in it.

01:01:21Guest:Oh, you're in it.

01:01:21Marc:Yeah.

01:01:22Guest:Oh, I thought they were.

01:01:23Guest:I didn't know they had done it already.

01:01:24Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:01:25Marc:No, it's going to be on in June.

01:01:26Marc:But I play his old caddy, so it's not on me to golf.

01:01:30Marc:But like they sent me, you know, one of the companies Taylor made sent me all the stuff.

01:01:34Marc:And I'm like, I don't know if I have the patience, man.

01:01:37Guest:Yeah, it does take a lot of patience.

01:01:39Marc:To suck forever?

01:01:40Guest:No, it's a lot like stand up.

01:01:43Guest:You got to really suck to get good.

01:01:47Guest:Yeah, but.

01:01:47Marc:Does not sound appealing to me.

01:01:49Bye.

01:01:50Guest:Yeah, I got over the stand-up hurdle.

01:01:53Guest:Yeah, no, thank you.

01:01:55Guest:No, but he's into it.

01:01:56Guest:He's good.

01:01:57Guest:But, you know, he's a sports fan.

01:01:58Guest:He's into, like, the Bills and Josh Allen.

01:02:02Guest:It's just very cool when you have a kid and they develop their own world.

01:02:09Marc:They become their own people.

01:02:10Guest:Yeah, and he loves soccer and he drives downtown and see these games.

01:02:17Marc:Oh, wow, that's great.

01:02:18Guest:Yeah, it's very cool.

01:02:21Marc:I'm hearing this sort of like, I don't know how he just became this person.

01:02:25Marc:He became his own person.

01:02:26Guest:How did that happen?

01:02:28Guest:Oh, and he's funny.

01:02:29Marc:Oh, good.

01:02:30Guest:Yeah.

01:02:31Guest:But I knew that kind of early on.

01:02:33Marc:Yeah.

01:02:33Guest:That he was funny.

01:02:35Marc:But having a teenager around, that means you're kind of privy to this...

01:02:40Marc:other world and other language of whatever is happening on their phones and on their platforms and on everything.

01:02:46Marc:Like, like I don't, I can't keep up with stuff and I don't have a kid.

01:02:50Marc:Yeah.

01:02:51Marc:But you have to deal with it all the time.

01:02:53Marc:Like, I mean, I have somebody doing my TikTok, but I don't ever go on it.

01:02:57Guest:Yeah.

01:02:58Guest:And right.

01:02:59Guest:He's on it all the time.

01:03:00Guest:Yeah.

01:03:00Guest:And all his friends are.

01:03:02Marc:Do you, are you on it?

01:03:02Guest:No.

01:03:06Yeah.

01:03:06Marc:No.

01:03:07Marc:No one's putting their clips up?

01:03:10Guest:Uh-uh.

01:03:10Guest:But I should because to, you know, I'm focusing now on selling my book.

01:03:16Guest:So it's important.

01:03:17Marc:And also stand-up.

01:03:18Marc:Yeah.

01:03:18Marc:Like I got a guy doing it.

01:03:19Marc:He's just like, there's an entire history of me in stand-up spots.

01:03:23Marc:And he just clips things.

01:03:25Marc:Oh, how great.

01:03:26Marc:And he says, what about this one?

01:03:27Marc:I'm like, all right.

01:03:28Marc:And then they just go up there.

01:03:29Marc:And I don't have a tremendous amount of followers, but I do know that.

01:03:33Marc:To speak to, like, you know, whether people know me or not, that there's definitely more people don't know me than do.

01:03:40Marc:And when these clips come up, they're like, who's that guy?

01:03:43Marc:You know, it's still discoverable.

01:03:45Guest:Yeah, I'm so surprised.

01:03:47Guest:Well, maybe I should get his name.

01:03:49Marc:Yeah, the guy?

01:03:49Marc:Yeah.

01:03:50Marc:There's a few guys that do it.

01:03:51Guest:Put my stuff up there.

01:03:51Marc:Why not?

01:03:52Marc:Yeah.

01:03:54Marc:Where is show business now for you?

01:03:56Marc:Is there still a world where you pitch shows and stuff?

01:03:58Marc:Oh, absolutely.

01:03:59Marc:Oh, really?

01:04:00Marc:Yeah.

01:04:00Marc:So you're doing that?

01:04:02Yeah.

01:04:02Guest:I am.

01:04:02Guest:In fact, I'm creating a comedy for Valerie Bertinelli.

01:04:09Marc:Oh, that's so good.

01:04:10Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:04:11Guest:She's so funny.

01:04:13Marc:She is.

01:04:13Marc:She's good.

01:04:14Marc:Well, I mean, I haven't seen her in a long time, but I interviewed her son, and he was great.

01:04:18Marc:Oh, right.

01:04:18Marc:Wolfgang.

01:04:19Marc:I heard that one, yes.

01:04:19Marc:It's great.

01:04:20Marc:Their relationship is great.

01:04:22Marc:I know.

01:04:22Marc:Like, I would interview Valerie in a minute.

01:04:24Marc:I don't know why I haven't.

01:04:25Marc:Oh, you should.

01:04:26Marc:Because she was, like, I mean, when I was a kid, like, she was, like, great.

01:04:30Guest:Yeah.

01:04:30Marc:What was it, One Day at a Time?

01:04:32Guest:Yep.

01:04:32Guest:And she's fantastic.

01:04:34Guest:You know, I totally had her in mind for this idea.

01:04:37Guest:And then you never know when you meet the person.

01:04:40Guest:Fingers crossed.

01:04:42Marc:Yeah.

01:04:43Marc:She's incredible.

01:04:43Marc:She's so sweet.

01:04:44Marc:And they're going to do it?

01:04:46Marc:Yeah.

01:04:47Marc:And what is it about?

01:04:49Marc:Can you tell me?

01:04:50Guest:Um, it's an older romantic comedy.

01:04:53Guest:It's a romantic comedy about people in their fifties, which, um, I've never seen before.

01:05:00Guest:And I thought would be interesting when you've, you're kind of, um, established yourself, your personality and, um, been through some shit.

01:05:08Marc:Yeah.

01:05:08Marc:Brought up a couple of kids.

01:05:10Guest:Yeah.

01:05:10Marc:Yeah.

01:05:11Guest:And falling in love with someone at that age and the challenges that go along, but still wanting, finding love.

01:05:23Marc:Yeah.

01:05:24Marc:And I don't know if there is a show like that, is there?

01:05:26Guest:There isn't.

01:05:27Guest:So that's kind of interesting.

01:05:29Guest:Yes.

01:05:29Guest:Thank you.

01:05:29Guest:It gave me a leg up in pitching because now whatever you pitch is like it has to be something nobody's ever seen before because they're so ready.

01:05:38Guest:The suits.

01:05:38Guest:Is it a network?

01:05:39Guest:That's like this.

01:05:40Guest:That's like this.

01:05:41Guest:Yeah.

01:05:42Guest:It's with CBS Studios.

01:05:43Marc:See, that's what's interesting is that.

01:05:46Marc:There are these shows that are basically boomer shows.

01:05:51Marc:And I think that generation still watches network driven stuff.

01:05:56Marc:Yeah.

01:05:56Marc:Like the kids don't.

01:05:58Marc:They're just watching YouTube or clips or whatever.

01:06:00Marc:But there's still a whole generation of people that are like, I don't even know where to watch it.

01:06:04Guest:Right.

01:06:04Guest:Yeah.

01:06:05Marc:You know, and like you have stuff like the Kaminsky Method or any of the Laurie shows.

01:06:11Marc:Like those are all for a generation of people that grew up watching television.

01:06:14Marc:Yeah.

01:06:15Marc:And they're still there.

01:06:17Guest:Exactly.

01:06:17Guest:But look, the Kaminsky Method was on Netflix.

01:06:20Marc:So there's Netflix is an exception.

01:06:22Marc:People know about Netflix.

01:06:23Guest:Yeah.

01:06:24Marc:I guess people maybe I'm not giving them enough credit.

01:06:26Marc:They can figure out where to watch something.

01:06:28Marc:But it is sort of challenging.

01:06:29Marc:Yeah.

01:06:29Guest:Yeah.

01:06:30Guest:And she also has such a big fan base.

01:06:34Guest:You know, she is very open on social media.

01:06:39Guest:About who?

01:06:40Marc:Valerie.

01:06:40Marc:Okay.

01:06:41Marc:Yeah.

01:06:41Guest:She's very out there.

01:06:42Marc:And people know her.

01:06:43Guest:People know her and they love her.

01:06:45Marc:So what'd you write?

01:06:45Marc:You got a pilot or you got a whole season written?

01:06:47Guest:No, we just have... The pitch.

01:06:51Guest:Yeah, yeah, the pitch that we sold.

01:06:53Guest:But, you know, she's great.

01:06:54Guest:A lot of celebs that you write for don't want to come to the pitch.

01:06:58Guest:They're like, oh, you do it, and whenever we sell it, I'll show up.

01:07:02Guest:She came to every pitch, participates, you know.

01:07:05Marc:But it feels to me that she, you know, with the death of her ex-husband and bringing up the kid, like, it feels like she had other priorities for a while.

01:07:15Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:07:15Marc:And now, like, she must be ready to go.

01:07:17Guest:She is.

01:07:18Guest:And, you know, I don't know if you saw or watched Hot in Cleveland, you know, and one day at a time.

01:07:24Guest:She's a pro.

01:07:25Guest:She knows how to get her laughs.

01:07:27Guest:And, you know, that's another great thing.

01:07:31Guest:When you develop for someone who knows comedy, it just makes it that much easier.

01:07:37Marc:Yeah, like TV pros.

01:07:38Marc:Yes.

01:07:39Marc:And there's not a ton of them of that generation anymore that know how to do, like, situation comedy.

01:07:46Guest:Yeah.

01:07:46Marc:It's a very specific thing.

01:07:48Guest:Yeah, especially in front of a live audience.

01:07:50Marc:Well, it's an interesting thing because...

01:07:53Marc:You know, you can't like, you know, on some level it's there's it's a conceit.

01:07:59Marc:Right.

01:07:59Marc:That the situation comedy, a half hour situation comedy.

01:08:02Marc:Yes.

01:08:03Marc:Is a joke delivery system.

01:08:05Marc:Right.

01:08:05Marc:That has to have this story.

01:08:07Marc:But the characters have to be so defined that they seem natural.

01:08:11Marc:And it's tricky.

01:08:12Marc:Yeah.

01:08:13Marc:To pull that off.

01:08:14Marc:It's a real balance.

01:08:16Guest:Absolutely.

01:08:17Guest:But, you know, they're looking for, I wanted to write a multicam because coming up from Seinfeld and, you know, that era, I am a big lover of that format still.

01:08:31Guest:So they're looking for that.

01:08:32Guest:But, you know, it's great because I don't know if you've seen Mid-Century Modern or

01:08:39Marc:Oh, no, I hear people love it.

01:08:40Guest:Yeah.

01:08:41Guest:It's so funny.

01:08:43Guest:And it's in front of a live audience.

01:08:45Guest:And I mean, Nathan Lane, you know, getting his laughs.

01:08:50Marc:The king of hams.

01:08:52Guest:The whole ensemble is great.

01:08:54Guest:So to work with someone like that is such a joy.

01:08:58Guest:That's great.

01:08:59Marc:Yeah.

01:08:59Marc:I don't know that I've watched one in a while.

01:09:01Marc:You know what I just watched that I was, like, I just don't even know why I avoided it for so long.

01:09:06Marc:But Someone Somewhere?

01:09:07Guest:Yeah.

01:09:08Marc:With Bridget Everett?

01:09:09Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:09:09Marc:Oh, my God.

01:09:10Marc:Great show.

01:09:11Marc:It's crazy good.

01:09:12Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:09:13Marc:And she's so good.

01:09:14Marc:It's unreal.

01:09:15Marc:That character is, like, and she's so fucking funny.

01:09:18Marc:Yeah.

01:09:19Marc:And it's not a three-camera thing.

01:09:22Marc:It's, like, you know, I don't know what you call that.

01:09:23Marc:Single cam.

01:09:24Marc:Single cam.

01:09:24Marc:Yeah.

01:09:25Marc:But it is so full of, like, deep humor.

01:09:29Marc:Yeah.

01:09:29Marc:It's just so funny.

01:09:30Guest:So good.

01:09:31Guest:I really want to see her live show.

01:09:33Guest:I knew nothing about her.

01:09:34Marc:I hear she's just like a powerhouse.

01:09:37Guest:Yeah.

01:09:39Guest:I have so many friends that have gone to see her and blown away by her.

01:09:42Marc:It's like a cabaret show?

01:09:44Marc:Yeah.

01:09:45Marc:Oh, my God.

01:09:46Guest:So, you know.

01:09:48Marc:Did you ever write for anybody for that stuff?

01:09:50Marc:Like for Bette Midler or anybody?

01:09:51Guest:No, I haven't.

01:09:53Marc:Yeah.

01:09:53Guest:I haven't.

01:09:55Marc:Because that was sort of a thing for a while.

01:09:57Guest:Yeah.

01:09:57Marc:That kind of performing.

01:09:59Marc:And they're kind of funny.

01:10:00Guest:Yeah.

01:10:02Guest:You know, I know that Bette Midler would use Bruce the Lance a lot to write her stuff.

01:10:07Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:10:07Marc:I talked to him.

01:10:08Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:10:08Marc:Yeah.

01:10:09Guest:So, people always have their...

01:10:11Guest:They're kind of favorite people.

01:10:13Marc:Now, what's the next step for this value?

01:10:15Marc:Natalie, are you going to hammer out a pilot and then see what happens and then hire writers?

01:10:20Marc:Are you going to work with people?

01:10:22Guest:You know, I think what we're going to do, the next step is selling it to one of the, through the studio, selling it to one of the outlets.

01:10:31Marc:As a pitch.

01:10:32Marc:Get the money, the development money to write a script.

01:10:35Guest:Yes.

01:10:36Guest:Yeah.

01:10:37Guest:So we'll see where we land.

01:10:39Marc:Right.

01:10:39Guest:I hope somebody listening.

01:10:42Guest:Yeah, maybe.

01:10:44Guest:Yeah.

01:10:45Guest:You know, to find the best outlet for this kind of multicam comedy.

01:10:50Marc:Yeah.

01:10:51Guest:But certainly there is a lot of interest.

01:10:53Marc:You're finding people want to do them again because they're cost effective.

01:10:59Yes.

01:10:59Guest:Yeah, and not only that, you know, it's multicams, but also I wouldn't go in to pitch something now without a piece of real talent because they want that too.

01:11:12Guest:Right.

01:11:12Guest:If you just go in to pitch something and here's the multicam idea and, you know, we'll get somebody.

01:11:18Guest:Yeah.

01:11:19Guest:Yeah, it's too hard.

01:11:20Marc:Okay.

01:11:20Guest:So to go in with a multicam and a proven talent like a Valerie Bertinelli.

01:11:25Marc:Right.

01:11:25Guest:That made it very, very saleable.

01:11:27Marc:That's great.

01:11:28Marc:Yeah.

01:11:28Marc:Congratulations.

01:11:29Marc:Thank you.

01:11:30Marc:It's great talking to you again.

01:11:31Guest:Love talking to you, Mark.

01:11:33Marc:All right.

01:11:33Marc:Well, I hope you do well with the book and the comedy and everything.

01:11:36Guest:Thanks.

01:11:42Marc:There you go.

01:11:43Marc:That was nice.

01:11:44Marc:I like seeing Carol.

01:11:44Marc:She's great.

01:11:45Marc:Her book, How to Write a Funny Speech, is available now.

01:11:49Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.

01:11:51Marc:Hang out.

01:11:54Marc:Hey, this week for full Marin listeners, I went even further into the behind the scenes details of my HBO special taping and heading into it.

01:12:04Marc:I had no stress about the material.

01:12:07Marc:I knew I was loaded up.

01:12:09Marc:I knew the shit worked.

01:12:11Marc:You know, like there was nothing that I was like, this might not land.

01:12:14Guest:But I found from you in the past, you've been stressed out at cutting it down.

01:12:20Guest:Like that was definitely the case for the last two specials, at least.

01:12:24Guest:Yeah, but oddly, when it comes down to the wire, I fucking land on the fucking mark.

01:12:28Guest:Yeah.

01:12:29Guest:And you didn't, you didn't fret about it at all.

01:12:32Guest:Like I, I didn't hear you once say like, Oh, I don't know how I'm going to do this.

01:12:37Guest:I don't know how I'm going to get this in at 70 minutes.

01:12:39Guest:And you said that a lot, like during, especially the last one from bleak to dark.

01:12:43Guest:I remember you saying that a lot that you were concerned.

01:12:45Guest:You just had too much and you weren't going to get it down.

01:12:48Guest:Right.

01:12:49Marc:But, you know, oddly, you know, maybe it's from radio experience.

01:12:52Marc:Maybe it's just from me, you know, because I choose, you know, to do a full hour that's loaded up.

01:12:58Marc:You know, it's, you know, the last three have been, you know, very full, you know, almost too full.

01:13:07Marc:Like, you know, I could cut 20 minutes off of this thing and do an hour.

01:13:11Marc:I knew from the last week or so of shows, like the ones I did...

01:13:18Marc:in Toronto and then the three at the club in Vermont, which is a smaller room.

01:13:22Marc:Like, I definitely was like, just do the shit.

01:13:27Marc:Just do what you're going to do with the special.

01:13:29Marc:Don't, you know, don't go off so you can say to yourself afterwards, well, I don't know because I decided to riff or whatever.

01:13:36Marc:I was like, just do it.

01:13:37Marc:Even if the response is stilted because you're locked in, just fucking do the work and take the hit so you know going in that you're within the time frame.

01:13:47Marc:So I wasn't worried about that.

01:13:48Marc:You can hear that bonus episode along with other bonus episodes.

01:13:51Marc:We post twice a week as part of the full Marin to sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.

01:14:01Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast and I slow down a classic kind of, I re thunk a classic for me.

01:14:11Marc:It's a classic.

01:14:12Marc:I took the edge off it.

01:14:22you

01:14:49Guest:.

01:15:18.

01:15:26Guest:.

01:15:27Guest:.

01:15:59guitar solo

01:16:31.

01:16:32.

01:17:02Guest:guitar solo

01:17:37Marc:Boomer lives.

01:17:39Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.

01:17:40Marc:Cat angels everywhere.