Episode 1641 - Samantha Crain
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Broadcasting from a room in a building that was built in the 1700s in what was once an attic.
Marc:A building with a very colorful history that I'm not entirely sure of.
Marc:I could do some reading, but it's not a bed and breakfast exactly.
Marc:It's an inn.
Marc:I'm in...
Marc:Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
Marc:And apparently this used to be the house of a ship captain.
Marc:And then it was owned by a woman who made clothing and then some other stuff.
Marc:YWCA for a while.
Marc:I don't know, but it was built...
Marc:A long time ago in the 1700s and renovated.
Marc:And now I'm in it.
Marc:And it's beautiful.
Marc:There's a lot of history here.
Marc:And I kind of feel it.
Marc:You know, you get into these old buildings and you feel something.
Marc:I don't know if it's a real feeling or if it's just something your brain manufactures because you know something about the place.
Marc:But I definitely have real feelings about New England that always resurface when I'm here.
Marc:But anyway, look.
Marc:Couple of things.
Marc:I just want to make a correction because Canadians are a little bit sensitive right now.
Marc:And that correction is that I mentioned I was at the Elgin Theater, but I was actually at the Elgin Winter Garden Theater, which is the Winter Garden Theater at the Elgin, which is a very specific and very special venue.
Marc:I think I might have described it the last time I was
Marc:talking about it with the leaves all over the place.
Marc:There's literally the entire walls and ceiling are just covered with a fake ivy that apparently represents real ivy that was there when they unearthed the place behind a wall.
Marc:But...
Marc:a Canadian and I'll honor their request was like, you know, that's a very special place.
Marc:And the Elgin is really a different theater.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, man, I'll clear it up.
Marc:They're very touchy right now.
Marc:And I get it.
Marc:Even my joke about the 51st state saying that, uh,
Marc:Now that the liberal one up there that we could use it because of the votes that they got a little touchy about that, too.
Marc:They're like, you can't be joking about that now.
Marc:It's a delicate time.
Marc:It's a scary time.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm I'm I'm living through it myself.
Marc:But know that it was a joke.
Marc:I don't want Canada to be the 51st state because I might need to live there.
Marc:But look, you guys, I'm out in it.
Marc:I've been doing it.
Marc:I've been hammering this set.
Marc:I've been tightening it up.
Marc:I've been overthinking it.
Marc:My special taping is this Saturday, day after tomorrow, doing two shows.
Marc:And it's just...
Marc:Incredible how much second-guessing I am doing, but it's also kind of incredible how I've locked into this set, and I'm just running it.
Marc:I did three shows up in Vermont at a small comedy club, Vermont Comedy Club, which is a great place, and they were nice enough to let me run it there, and I just locked into this set, man.
Marc:And I'm touring now.
Marc:Kathy Ladman, who's very funny, she's been on this show.
Marc:She's opening for me on these dates, and we were talking about just the whole life of doing these
Marc:doing stand-up, doing different places, doing stand-up, doing... She's been around a long time.
Marc:I've been around a long time.
Marc:The idea of preparing for even like a five-minute stand-up spot on a TV show, just kind of rendering down whatever it is you do to kind of make sense for five minutes is separate things from...
Marc:other bits and you know mashing them together there's this weird part of the job that is is not just doing stand-up and you know i'm not the tightest act in the world but when i got to tighten it up i tighten it up anyway how are you guys doing you all right nothing's getting better but uh you know we're still in it today on the show uh i have an interesting guest and
Marc:I'm not sure how I got hip to her.
Marc:I think it might have been through Lily Gladstone.
Marc:But I got a record by a native singer songwriter named Samantha Crane.
Marc:She is from the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma.
Marc:And it was a very interesting record in the way that she sings.
Marc:And the lyrics, some of them were actually in native language.
Marc:But she's also done a lot of work in film and television.
Marc:She's been used in shows like Reservation Dogs.
Marc:And she composed the score for the Lily Gladstone film Fancy Dance.
Marc:And it was interesting.
Marc:And I knew there'd be an interesting story there.
Marc:So we had a nice conversation.
Marc:Her latest album is called Gumshoe.
Marc:But I like talking to people that come from an entirely different background than I do.
Marc:So it's a good opportunity to sort of talk about that experience and experience outside of myself and understand and engage.
Marc:That's what we do.
Marc:I'm finding as I get older, and I guess I always knew it, that, look, I'm not great left to my own devices or left alone for too long.
Marc:I definitely need to engage with people.
Marc:You know, you give me four or five hours alone and, you know, look, I can occupy myself, but there's no telling what will go on in my brain.
Marc:And then sometimes it just kind of, you know, kind of starts chipping away at my very sense of self.
Marc:And sometimes I don't know who I am until I'm seen and engaged with another person.
Marc:And then I'm like, oh, here I am.
Marc:Thank God I was drifting.
Marc:So as I said, we're coming up on the end of the tour here.
Marc:There's only two more shows, and that's for my HBO special taping this Saturday in Brooklyn, New York at the Bam Harvey Theater.
Marc:Two shows, 7 p.m.
Marc:and 9.30.
Marc:I don't know if there are tickets, but there may be.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour or bam, B-A-M.org for tickets.
Marc:And see if you might be some singles.
Marc:I don't know really what's going on with that.
Marc:But if you're a last minute kind of person and you want to do that thing, come to one of those shows, it might still be possible.
Marc:Oh my God, folks.
Marc:What a long journey this has been.
Marc:My whole fucking life.
Marc:And I swear to God, when I start talking about my past personally and my past professionally, I've got to learn how to sit in the gratitude a bit.
Marc:Because honestly, it's a fucking miracle that not only did I land on my feet, but I'm doing okay.
Marc:And I've kind of made the arc of whatever success was given to me.
Marc:Because yes, certainly I kept pushing and I kept trying, but it was elusive for many years.
Marc:And then somehow or another, cosmic change.
Marc:timing sort of occurred and things shifted and I did all right.
Marc:I feel like I'm on the other side of it.
Marc:I'm still doing all right.
Marc:But I feel like, you know, whatever my journey was to get to whatever peak I was supposed to get to, I might have hit it.
Marc:I mean, hopefully I can stay on this plateau that the peak is at for a little while.
Marc:But even if I don't, I have to acknowledge that what a long, strange, fucked up trip it's been.
Marc:For real, I mean, you know, talking to Kathy in the car about comedy and about my life, I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:It's like I've lived four, five, six lives.
Marc:Maybe I'm like a cat.
Marc:Maybe I've only got a few more.
Marc:I don't know which life I'm in.
Marc:Maybe my seventh.
Marc:But man, just even being up in this area, it's crazy.
Yeah.
Marc:It's crazy having been a touring one-nighter comic, and God knows I've talked about this before, up in this area, just even in Vermont.
Marc:In Vermont, just walking around Burlington.
Marc:It's beautiful in Vermont.
Marc:We're right on that lake, what is it, Champlain?
Marc:Gorgeous.
Marc:But it's so drenched in weird, traumatic, early comedy memories that there's always a slight edge to it.
Marc:There's always a slight darkness to it that is generated from within me.
Marc:From my strange, injured core comes these tainted memories.
Marc:It's wild to be looking at something beautiful and have this slight nag of darkness.
Marc:And you're like, oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I remember there used to be a used to come up to Vermont.
Marc:There was a couple of dates, like a series, a string of dates at the ski areas.
Marc:And just I remember traveling up there with my girlfriend who became my first wife.
Marc:I think it was probably before we were married and doing a show at a place called Mother Shapiro's in Killington.
Marc:And the guy who owned the place was kind of crazy.
Marc:There was a bunch of locals at the bar that were looking at my girlfriend, all weird and creepy.
Marc:And I don't even remember the show or how I got through it.
Marc:And then I think there was another gig called, it was at a place called maybe Be Made Denny's.
Marc:I might be completely wrong about that.
Marc:And I remember doing that show with Steve Baliga, who used to do a Walter Brennan impression.
Marc:And this was, I can't even tell you what year it was.
Marc:It must have been 89.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:Even then, I didn't know who Walter Brennan was enough to even get the impression.
Marc:I don't know what happened to Steve Baliga.
Marc:Nice guy.
Marc:But I remember Kim and I, my girlfriend at the time, we used to kind of do one of Steve's lines driving through Vermont on the road because he used to do this thing like in between jokes.
Marc:Like he'd just go driving, driving, driving.
Marc:driving, driving, driving.
Marc:And it was just this repetition.
Marc:It didn't really, I don't even know what it was attached to initially, but I just remember we used to do that.
Marc:And I remember stopping at a state liquor store and buying a large bottle of Jägermeister that came with glasses.
Marc:A gift box.
Marc:Because that's who I was.
Marc:I was like, say, baby, let's let's stop at the state liquor store and get some juice.
Marc:And I think that brought us closer.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:And I used to was sort of obsessed with the Jägermeister for a minute.
Marc:Nasty stuff.
Marc:But it took you somewhere.
Marc:And it was like it had 900 ingredients and it was from a monastery.
Marc:I just thought it was mystical floor sweepings that made this liquor.
Marc:And yeah, memorable stuff.
Marc:And Burlington, Vermont, the front, that was a big college bar.
Marc:I remember working there with Dave Cross and just, you know, drunk and whatever.
Marc:I can't even remember where they put us up.
Marc:I feel like it, I almost feel like it was in the back of the venue, if that's even possible.
Marc:And then there was that place, Nectar.
Marc:where you get the turkey sandwiches.
Marc:I talked to Trey Anastasio about that because they came from there.
Marc:But none of those experiences really stand out of my mind as great.
Marc:It was just part of this miserable process that's gotten me here to this place.
Marc:I'm definitely less miserable.
Marc:I'm grateful I'm still alive.
Marc:I feel like my brain is turning into mush.
Marc:I think it's just because I'm kind of stuffing down the stress of what has to happen in the next couple of days.
Marc:Got one more show tonight here at the music hall.
Marc:And, you know, there's part of my brain that's sort of like, no problem.
Marc:But the other part somewhere inside of me is just it's just making my brain kind of.
Marc:kind of mushy, I think.
Marc:Or maybe something worse is happening, but I imagine it's just the stress manifesting in other ways.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:New England.
Marc:New England, folks.
Marc:So pretty.
Marc:It's a good time of year.
Marc:I actually, the last time I was in Vermont, it was during a massive blizzard.
Marc:And it's fucking, what is it, May?
Marc:And I've got to fly from Toronto to Vermont.
Marc:I don't know if I told you this.
Marc:And all I'm thinking about is snow.
Marc:And there's no snow.
Marc:I can't get my brain around not thinking the worst.
Marc:Oh, you didn't know this.
Marc:did you?
Marc:I left my computer at TSA, at Border Security in Toronto.
Marc:Fucking unbelievable.
Marc:I don't know what's going on.
Marc:I don't do this stuff.
Marc:I don't lose shit.
Marc:I don't leave shit.
Marc:I can't explain it other than usually with TSA, if you have TSA,
Marc:They never make you take your computer out anymore.
Marc:That's one of the big perks.
Marc:But in Canada, coming back into the States, they made me take the computer out and put it in a tray.
Marc:And I just grabbed my bags and I didn't put the computer back in.
Marc:So it's just sitting there at security in Toronto at Pearson Airport.
Marc:And I didn't notice until I was on the plane from Detroit to Burlington.
Marc:I'd flown to Detroit, didn't need my computer, didn't notice it gone.
Marc:Then I'm on the plane, I reach in and I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:And that feeling of losing either a phone or a computer is just so crazy because it's almost like,
Marc:It's like half your brain.
Marc:It's like your whole life.
Marc:It's like, you know, everything that makes you you is somehow in that thing.
Marc:And there's a panic to it.
Marc:And I just was like, you've got to be kidding me.
Marc:How am I going to get that back?
Marc:Am I ever going to get it back?
Marc:What's on there?
Marc:And, you know, how do I even proceed with this?
Marc:Do I call?
Marc:Do I have to be on the phone with somebody because it's just a MacBook?
Marc:Am I going to have to tell some random thing?
Marc:security border guy in Toronto, my password so we can prove that it's mine.
Marc:I mean, just the spiraling.
Marc:And then I texted my computer guy and he's like, yeah, don't worry about it.
Marc:It's just, let's just get a new one in New York.
Marc:I'm like, what?
Marc:And it's like, yeah, you backed it up, right?
Marc:So it's all in the cloud.
Marc:You'll get it all back.
Marc:And I remember this being the case when I,
Marc:Spilt some soda on my last one, but there is something about it just floating out there, just a hard drive or whatever they are now just out there.
Marc:But I guess there's the same feeling of it being up in the cloud or down in the cloud in a cloud mill somewhere.
Marc:data mill.
Marc:But nonetheless, it feels like an appendage.
Marc:You feel like you've lost something that contains a good part of you.
Marc:And over the time, I was on the plane, and by the time I got to Burlington, I kind of let it go.
Marc:I'm like, well, fuck it.
Marc:Is there even a point to try to get that thing back if it's even possible?
Marc:And
Marc:And I kind of let it go, but I'm like, well, dude, do some due diligence.
Marc:I mean, you know, why not try?
Marc:So I go and I look up lost and found at Toronto airport and I'm taken to a site and there's a form you fill out and I filled out the form.
Marc:Then I remembered I had this sticker on the thing of the, the titty sphinx from the Pittsburgh cemetery, very unique and specific location.
Marc:sticker and i'm like well that that makes it mine i won't have to have anybody open it up and then they asked for the serial number of the computer and i looked that up and you realize well all that stuff's on your phone you know what other machines you have and i got the serial number then i talked to my mac guy and he's like i'm like is the serial number on the computer yeah it's on the outside it's very small but it's on there and i'm like oh so they don't have to open it's like no dude and your name's right above the login
Marc:uh, place on the, on the homepage.
Marc:And I'm like, Oh, so all that panic about whether or not I had to let my computer go because I didn't want an anonymous border agent to open it with my password was, was made up.
Marc:It was never a reality.
Marc:And that's what I had to process in order to let it go.
Marc:Like, then there's like, it's not open.
Marc:It's just this fear.
Um,
Marc:Of having your entire life, it seems, you know, just available to strangers.
Marc:And it's not even a browser history.
Marc:I'm not, you know, I'm not doing the porn on the computer or anything like that.
Marc:But it's just like, you know, pictures, films, things, writings, recordings.
Marc:It's all on there, you know.
Marc:I mean, I do a little porn on the phone, but not on the computer.
Yeah.
Marc:But anyway, what I guess I wanted to say, and not that they need publicity, but I do want to give a shout out to whatever the kind of structure at Pearson International Airport in Toronto is that, you know, I filed that claim and I found a picture of the sticker.
Marc:I put that on there and the serial number.
Marc:And I emailed it.
Marc:I never called anybody.
Marc:And within hours, like the next morning, they're like, we think we got it.
Marc:We got it.
Marc:I just got an email saying this is your thing.
Marc:And I'm like, great.
Marc:And then they give you options of how to have it mailed to you.
Marc:And now the computer is at home.
Marc:It's at my house before I even get there.
Marc:And it's so amazing when shit like that works out where you just think like, well, this is going to be lost in the machinery of whatever the lost and found situation.
Marc:I've got to stop thinking the worst all the time.
Marc:The computer made it to my house.
Marc:And then I was like, well, watch, the only way this can end in a fitting fashion is if it gets stolen off my porch.
Yeah.
Marc:It did not.
Marc:Anyway, look, Samantha Crane is here.
Marc:Her new album is Gumshoe, and it's available wherever you get music.
Marc:And I thought we had a pretty lovely conversation.
Marc:And I listened to the music a lot, and it really kind of grew on me in a way I didn't anticipate.
Marc:But this is me talking to Samantha Crane.
Marc:Sorry, so what is this sport called that you brought me these sticks?
Guest:Stickball.
Marc:Just stickball?
Guest:It's just called stickball.
Marc:There's no in the language?
Guest:Oh, whoa.
Guest:I actually don't know.
Guest:We just call it stickball whenever we're down at the Cultural Center.
Guest:I think they say it's indigenous stickball because stickball is also like what you play in a playground in New York.
Marc:That's like baseball, though.
Marc:This looks more like a lacrosse situation.
Marc:I wonder if lacrosse evolved out of this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it did.
Guest:And I think like a lot of the northern Muskegon tribes, they just play lacrosse now.
Guest:And then a lot of the southern, like southeastern Muskegon tribes, they play indigenous stickball.
Marc:Old school.
Guest:Old school.
Marc:Well, I mean, it seems like this would be more challenging.
Marc:So I imagine the people that play the old school one are like lacrosse is for babies.
Marc:Because look how small these catchers are.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So do you live here?
Guest:No, I live in Oklahoma.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Where?
Guest:I live in a town called Norman, which is like.
Marc:I know her.
Marc:I've heard that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know her.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know Norman.
Guest:You know her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like a college town.
Marc:I was just there, you know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I was at your show.
Guest:You were.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did I meet you after briefly?
Guest:I think I did.
Guest:And I'm so glad I didn't know that I was going to do this whenever we went to the show because I have a real bad habit of, like, two glasses of wine in, saying something really stupid to someone.
Guest:Like, if I would have known I was going to do this, I would have been like, oh, I'm going to do you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So I'm glad I just— No, I kind of remember after when I came out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was kind of a good show.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:And how far is Oklahoma City from where you are?
Guest:It's like—
Marc:20 minutes.
Marc:I've had a good time in Oklahoma.
Guest:Yeah, we've got good people.
Marc:When I went to Tulsa, I was like, oh my God, this place is great.
Marc:And then I think, I could live here.
Marc:I'll just move here.
Marc:And then you realize, it's like four blocks, dude.
Yeah.
Guest:It's like one street.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I can move here for the street.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's actually, that's so right.
Guest:It's 100% right.
Guest:Every time I have people come visit me, they're like, oh, I should move here.
Guest:And it's like, you're going to get over it real quick.
Guest:You have to be like from here, I think, to really like appreciate it.
Marc:I think that's true.
Marc:You know, I grew up in New Mexico and you have there's a connection to if you grew up somewhere, it seems to become it's part of your heart that you can't explain.
Marc:So no matter what other people say about it or what, you know, the how people see the city, you're like, well, this is I live lives in me.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in a town called Shawnee, which is also not that far from Oklahoma City.
Guest:It's like 45 minutes.
Guest:And lived there until I got out of high school.
Guest:And then I just sort of bit-bopped around the whole world and lived in various cities for like a year.
Marc:Well, when you were growing up, what was the community?
Marc:You were Choctaw?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm Chalk Top.
Guest:Now, the tribe is based in southeastern Oklahoma, which is where most of my—the rest of my family live, like my grandparents, my cousins, my aunts and uncles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the town that I lived in was not—is not part of that reservation.
Guest:It was just where— An outlier?
Guest:Yeah, outlier.
Marc:They don't—why didn't they want you part of it?
Guest:No, no, it's not— It's just a land thing?
Guest:It's just a land thing, yeah.
Guest:It's just where the boundaries are.
Guest:So I wasn't—I would only kind of get to be, like, around—
Guest:My culture, like in the summers, whenever we would go and we would go down there for like the entire summer.
Marc:Onto the reservation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My great grandparents and my great aunt and uncle and my grandparents and a bunch of other uncles and aunts had like a sort of a farm down there that we would just spend a whole summer down there.
Marc:It bothers me, and I always feel bad about it, that I had, until I watched Reservation Dogs, and I talked to Sterling, I had no sense of what that life was like.
Marc:I'm always kind of fascinated, but it seems like a great injustice that we don't know in general, that there are these communities that live in almost like a different time zone.
Marc:And it's like, and it's so, the traditions and the sort of way of thinking about spirituality and stuff are so ancient and unique.
Marc:But like, you don't, I didn't know anything about it.
Marc:And I'm an old man.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's actually surprising because you're from New Mexico and you never had any like.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:We knew, you know, people, indigenous people around, but it was like they were the reservations are in Albuquerque.
Marc:And the ones in the Navajo Nation is a little far away.
Marc:And then there was, you know, Acoma and there's Pecos.
Marc:But it wasn't there was no way to to learn the life, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unless you were like invited in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you could see what's going on.
Marc:You just end up going to ruins.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I understand that.
Guest:I think, yeah, because the reservation system is a little bit different in Oklahoma where it's just like, it's all together.
Guest:It's like mixed in with city borders.
Guest:And so everybody just lives in the same cities.
Guest:You're just like technically on reservation.
Guest:So you get a lot more.
Marc:It seems a little more dug in in Oklahoma.
Marc:It seems like it's like that's the place.
Marc:And I don't, we don't need to talk about it the whole time.
Marc:I just kind of find it interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I talked to Lily, too.
Marc:You know, Gladstone, she's a friend of mine.
Marc:And you did her movie.
Guest:Yeah, I scored Fancy Dance.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:The score was great.
Marc:The movie was great.
Guest:The movie's amazing.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:She's so good in it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:But, like, it's a weird habit when you talk to people from your culture where, you know, I put people in the position where they're like, well, you're a representative and I need some information.
Yeah.
Marc:But she seems to deal with it pretty well.
Guest:She deals with it better than anybody that I know.
Guest:She's like the perfect example of giving you just the right amount of information that you can like digest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Me, I am like...
Guest:The minute I start feeling like half comfortable with someone, I become like the oversharer or like.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I start saying things that I'm just like, this person has no idea what I'm talking about.
Guest:So.
Marc:About your life?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm just like, oh, they want to know.
Guest:And then all of a sudden I'm telling them about like when I was five years old doing something with my uncle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're just like, that's OK.
Guest:I just want to.
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:What did your uncle do?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:That was just like a made up thing.
Marc:But I mean, what was the family business out there?
Marc:Were they, you know, where you come from?
Guest:So, well, okay.
Guest:So my, in Shawnee, where I kind of like grew up, grew up, my dad owned a powerlifting gym.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And he did like a mail order business through that.
Guest:And so, and also traveled a lot for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, do you know what the power team is like from a Christian?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So like in Oklahoma.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The Southern Baptists had this thing called the power team, which was like a group of big buff men that would go around and do things at revivals and they would preach and like show feats of strength.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like they'd tear phone books in half or like.
Marc:Just big dudes.
Guest:Just big dudes being like, I can do all things through Christ.
Marc:At tent revivals.
Guest:Yeah, tent revivals or like in an actual church.
Marc:Yeah, in a church, yeah.
Guest:And my dad kind of did a version of that, too, where he would like go around and like preach and play songs and then like rip phone books in half.
Marc:A Christian angle?
Guest:Yeah, it was like very much part of the Southern Baptist.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I had a t-shirt that someone got me.
Marc:I don't know where it's years ago.
Marc:It must have been some Christian gift shop.
Marc:It was it was Christ, like almost like in a push up position with the cross on his back with muscles.
Guest:Was it a Lord's gem t-shirt?
Marc:Maybe it said, like, his pain, your gain.
Guest:I think that's a Lord's Gym t-shirt.
Guest:That was a very big, like, deal in the 90s, especially around Oklahoma.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it became like a very popular t-shirt.
Marc:I really want another one.
Marc:I just thought it was so cool.
Marc:I was wearing it ironically, but I did like the shirt.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Does this rip Jesus cross on his back pushing up?
Guest:I'm pretty sure that it must be.
Guest:We had one of those T-shirts like cycling around my house when I was growing up.
Guest:So funny.
Marc:So you brought up Southern Baptist?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Was there an element of traditional spirituality always?
Guest:So that was, weirdly, no.
Guest:Because the Choctaws, especially in Oklahoma, are very ingrained in like the Southern Baptist just through.
Marc:They got you guys.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They got us.
Guest:They got us.
Guest:We even have like this thing.
Guest:I mean, part of the reason why I started writing songs in the Choctaw language is because the only songs that really exist on recording in the language now are.
Guest:basically translations of southern baptist hymns so we have like a big hymn tradition in the tribe where they sing the the hymns like jesus songs in the choctaw language and i was just kind of like i would like there to be something else for us to sing about in our language but so no it was all pretty southern baptist
Marc:yeah and so like a song like um which one was it when we remain that's a Choctaw language song that you just it but that because I couldn't I didn't know what you were saying so you don't know how to you don't know the language I really wish I did but that's just a one of your original songs and you and now how does that land with uh people in the community is it is it exciting to them
Guest:Yes, because I think they all feel the same way, where they're just like, they wish that there was, they wish that they could sing in their language, but maybe not about Jesus.
Guest:Because there's so much baggage attached to that.
Guest:To the Jesus?
Guest:Yeah, with the boarding schools and the colonialism and all of that.
Guest:So I think they want to be able to connect to something that's like further back.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you speak it fluently?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I'm still in the learning process.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I am dedicated to that as a practice to learn the language.
Guest:That's something that takes pretty high priority in my life other than music stuff.
Guest:But it's...
Guest:It's kind of like the further in that you get, the harder it gets because it's not just about learning words and vocabulary.
Guest:You're basically like changing how you think about things because that's what language does.
Guest:Sometimes there's not like side-by-side comparisons of like English way of thinking and Choctaw way of thinking.
Marc:What do you feel is the theme, the main difference in terms of how it – like is it more –
Marc:Picture oriented kind of?
Guest:It's very verb heavy.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So everything is about like movement and change and doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My thing that I'm kind of obsessed with right now is there's no, there's no word for is or are in the language.
Guest:So for instance, like if I was going to describe you, I could describe you, but because I'm not connecting you and a description with the word is or are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's basically like a value saying you are only how I can describe you right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or at that moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You that doesn't mean that how I'm describing you is who you are.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I find that incredibly freeing and like kind of Buddhist, you know, it's like you are multitudes, you know, you contain all sorts of things.
Marc:And you're not locked into like because your perception of me is not me.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So there's sort of a nice boundary there and a respect almost.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:And just being able to think about things like that, think about people that way, think about how you're perceiving the world around you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think it's very freeing.
Guest:It unlocks you from a lot of this idea of...
Guest:How I'm perceiving my life is how it's going.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That, like, what is, you know, is relative to your perception of it.
Marc:And then you can separate yourself from that and kind of be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:They had it figured out, man, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting to think about, like, what the...
Marc:the sort of roots of that is because it's sort of like it innately respects autonomy, right, of people.
Marc:It's kind of great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you're working in the language to write songs, you know, it must give you a whole other poetic sort of tool almost.
Guest:Yeah, because when I'm writing in English, my go-to is like me, me, me, me, emo, me, me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:This is how I feel.
Guest:This is who I am.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Then when I write in that language, it sort of like unlocks this whole other thing, which is like, this is what I'm perceiving.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So it's very much like a more observational way of writing, which I find just like unlocking like a whole different...
Marc:aspect of like writing and creating yeah and there's something about like just i think the folk tradition in terms of like that's a perception thing but you are sort of documenting experience or or journeys of hardship and stuff that that it's not necessarily self-referential at all yeah you know so wait now i want to go back to this the empower gym the power lifting gym so did you like did the whole family work there kind of deal yeah it was very much a family business
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, like, we had the gym, and then my dad also competed in powerlifting.
Guest:Like, he would... But there's no money in powerlifting, so it's like you do it for the love of it.
Guest:And so we would travel in, like, this van to different competitions so he could... They just had powerlifting competitions around?
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Marc:Like states?
Marc:You went to different states to do it?
Guest:Different states, even different countries.
Guest:And he would...
Guest:Basically, my we had like our own job.
Guest:So he would set up in order to like pay for these trips that he would be going on.
Guest:He would set up like a little table with like vitamins or like protein bars or like equipment.
Guest:So he could like sell them to like other lifters.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's very resourceful, honestly.
Guest:And so I would usually head that up.
Guest:And that was back whenever they had the credit card things.
Guest:That was like the big.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The clunky like that had to make the imprint.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I had one of those that I would operate at like age, you know, eight.
Guest:I'm just like taking people's credit card imprints.
Guest:And then my brother would work this little video camera.
Guest:My dad would set up a video camera because he found out that all of these lifters wanted to watch their competition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But people didn't like really own video cameras.
Marc:So like a VHS camera?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so my brother would set up a VHS camera and film the whole meet, and then my dad would sell copies of the tapes to people.
Guest:And we just traveled around and did that, like, a lot.
Marc:It's almost like it's not quite, like, I don't know why I associate it with wrestling, because it's not really like that, but it seems like the culture is kind of like that.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Did you see Iron Claw?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like that kind of underground wrestling world where it's like very family oriented because you have to have people that will like work for free for your dream.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So that's what we were doing.
Guest:We were like the whole family working for free for my dad's dream.
Marc:Where did your dad get this obsession?
Guest:From his dad.
Guest:His dad was like one of these like Muscle Beach people.
Marc:Out here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They lived a lot of places whenever he was growing up, but he was out here and then up in Oakland for a while and stuff.
Marc:And he was a power lifter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like just really into the whole Jack LaLanne fitness sort of thing.
Guest:And so I think that trickled down to my dad and his brothers and sisters.
Marc:They're all power lifters?
Yeah.
Guest:So, yes, they were.
Guest:My dad was the one that kind of was like rose to the top of the pile.
Marc:Was he a champion of some kind?
Guest:He was one of the best to ever live, honestly, for his weight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like if you mention his name to anybody that's in powerlifting, they'll know who he is.
Marc:What's his name?
Guest:Ricky Dale Crane.
Guest:Such a great name for it, right?
Marc:It's a powerlifting name.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So wait, so were you powerlifting?
Guest:Yeah, when I was a little.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, up until I was like 16, I competed.
Marc:How were you?
Marc:Were you ranked?
Guest:I was.
Guest:I got like records and stuff.
Guest:But the thing was, is like, I didn't really like, I didn't like it.
Guest:I just liked being good at something, I think.
Guest:Well, sure.
Marc:It seems like a fairly limited scope.
Marc:I mean, it's like, it's not even a sport necessarily.
Marc:It's a, it's a, what would you call it?
Marc:It's a competitive thing, but you're doing one thing.
Marc:You're not playing, there's not a team element.
Guest:No, it's an individual sport.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you were good, huh?
Yeah.
Guest:I was, but just purely, like, genetically.
Guest:Low center of gravity.
Marc:Right, but, like, are you still ribbed?
Guest:No.
Marc:No, it's gone.
Marc:When was the last time you put some weights on your shoulders?
Guest:I mean, probably, like, a year ago.
Guest:And it was, like, very little, I'm sure.
Guest:It's, like, my...
Marc:But I bet you muscle memory, you still got the form and everything.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I do, actually.
Guest:One time I was like at the YMCA and I was just doing like a squat.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And some guy was like, you have great form.
Marc:And you're like, let me tell you.
Marc:Let me tell you.
Guest:This was hammered into my head from a very young age.
Marc:So when does your dad's not around anymore?
Yeah.
Guest:He passed away in October.
Guest:It was very sudden.
Marc:Oh, sorry.
Marc:So you have just one brother or how many?
Marc:One brother, yeah.
Marc:And is he still in the powerlifting racket?
Guest:He runs my dad's gym now.
Marc:It's still there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where you grew up?
Guest:Well, it moved around a couple of times, but it is still in Shawnee.
Guest:He had it in a garage and then he had it in...
Guest:another shopping center building.
Guest:And now it's in a building that's kind of near his house.
Marc:I wonder, he just chose that because of his dad, huh?
Marc:And he focused on that one thing.
Guest:I think he just saw that he was really good at it.
Guest:And he just wanted to be the best at something, I guess.
Marc:Yeah, that makes sense.
Marc:And I imagine your brother kind of expanded the gym to include more things.
Guest:No, I mean, like I said, my brother is just now like gotten this handed to him because my dad passed away in October.
Guest:So like my dad or my brother worked there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But he's like just now gotten it.
Marc:And it's still for power lifting.
Guest:It's very much like the it's not like a walking into a planet fitness.
Guest:It's like.
Guest:you know, like the same eight guys who spend like three hours there every day and like go take a smoke break in between their sets.
Guest:And like, you know, it's like that kind of very gritty.
Marc:You walk in and you're like, oh, this isn't right for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, if you're like a woman that's trying to like tone up, this is not where you go.
Marc:They probably call it the scary gym.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Probably.
Marc:So at what point do you gravitate towards music?
Guest:I think probably like 15, 16.
Marc:You're starting to realize powerlifting is not your life.
Guest:Yeah, I'm realizing that's not for me.
Guest:I was, I mean, a couple of things like converged where I was realizing that I was more of like a creative person.
Guest:I mean, I always like wrote music.
Guest:And stuff growing up.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like poetry, stories and stuff?
Guest:Yeah, poetry, stories, things like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't have like an example of that in my life.
Guest:I mean, being in a small town, you were either doing FFA, like agriculture stuff, or you were doing sports.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was kind of it.
Guest:So I think...
Guest:I was just starting to listen to music more.
Guest:And there was guitars at our house because my dad played.
Marc:Oh, he did.
Guest:But I'm very stubborn and I don't like people teaching me things.
Guest:So I'm like, or I didn't at the time.
Marc:What was the music in the house?
Guest:Like 60s folk, you know, Simon and Garfunkel.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Bob Dylan.
Guest:Those are good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My dad was like a huge folky.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that worked.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Could have been Bob Seger.
Guest:Could have been.
Guest:Could have been Bob Seger.
Guest:Could have been.
Guest:I mean, could have been anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like he was specifically a folk guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a folk guy.
Marc:Like stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And did you find that like, was there any influence from Native community that seeped in or were you distant from that?
Guest:Well, I mean, like I said, I was culturally a part of that, especially during the summers.
Guest:But the music element of our tribe, like what we have contact with, is mainly just social dances.
Guest:So there's not a lot of...
Marc:It's interesting, though, that there was not that many contemporary kind of rock bands and stuff.
Marc:There's like two or three.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There is this, like, I'm kind of just now discovering this, but there's this guy that does a radio show called, I think it's called Wateka Radio out of Minnesota.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's Lakota, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he has a radio show where all he plays are...
Guest:like contemporary native musicians that were doing stuff between like the, I guess the fifties and seventies ish.
Guest:So there's all of these like undiscovered records and tapes and stuff that he just finds and he plays these on his radio show and it's very cool.
Marc:Well, there's a collection, I think it was put out by maybe Numero or Light in the Attic, that is all kind of contemporary native music from like the 60s.
Guest:Yeah, I've heard that.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
Marc:And I'm kind of obsessed with this guy, Jesse Ed Davis.
Guest:Yeah, he's from Norman, where I live.
Marc:That guy, man.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:What a fucking great guitar player.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's like two solo albums of his that are really good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He kind of hit the wall kind of hard, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But he did that solo on Dr. My Eyes, the Jackson Browns.
Marc:He's good.
Guest:I was just listening to an interview with him the other day.
Guest:Where was that?
Guest:It was on this What That Go radio.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:They played it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was talking about how he was hanging out with George Harrison.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He needed one extra song for his solo record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so...
Guest:George, like, played him this song.
Guest:And he was like, I could tell he didn't really want to, like, give it to me because he wanted to do it himself.
Guest:But I, like, talked him into it and I cut it.
Guest:And so, like, he got, like, one of George Harrison's songs.
Marc:He played with everybody.
Marc:Leon Russell.
Marc:He played with Lennon, I think.
Marc:Harry Nelson.
Marc:I mean, he was, like, a real studio guy.
Marc:They just released a biography of him.
Marc:But, all right, so you listened to folk music.
Marc:And you figured out how to play on your own?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think I just went and bought, like, a guitar chord book from, like, the local music store.
Marc:Yeah, all you need is four chords, really.
Guest:Yeah, and that's really what I started out with.
Guest:It was, like, G, C, E minor, D, and I just started, like, writing, like, poetry to music, basically, I guess.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when do you, like... And so your influences are primarily the folk records?
Guest:They... I mean, that was sort of my... That was the easiest, like, entry level.
Guest:I was definitely listening to a lot more...
Guest:pop like or whatever was on the radio at that point yeah but the folk thing seemed like low barrier entry you know like you could listen to that and be like oh all i need is a guitar and then i can like write a song
Marc:You can make it your own because you don't need anyone else.
Guest:Yeah, you can visualize that as a teenager a little bit easier than like, oh, I need four people and amps and like a drummer and a bass player.
Guest:That feels very difficult when you're like 15 or 16.
Marc:So how long did you just play solo?
Marc:When did you start playing out?
Guest:So there was like a little coffee shop in Shawnee that had an open mic.
Guest:And I did that for a couple years while I was still learning.
Guest:And I'm sure it was very bad.
Guest:I think I was playing like Radiohead covers or like Bob Dylan covers or something.
Marc:Oh, Bob Dylan covers.
Marc:Like which ones?
Guest:The times they are changing.
Marc:Oh, of course.
Marc:Yeah, you got to do that.
Guest:You got to do that one.
Marc:You weren't going to tackle like visions of Johanna.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Or like, what's the one that like the hurricane that's like seven minutes long or something?
Marc:I tried like I play sometimes, you know, I play with some guys sometimes, but we play out and I decided I'm an OK player, but I decided like, let's do ISIS.
Marc:And like about like midway through the song, I'm like, I'm not that confident in playing and singing.
Marc:And I'm like, we've still got like half of it.
Guest:I'm so over it.
Marc:Well, it's just like if you lose your kind of mojo in the middle and you start to second guess yourself, you're like, I can't get out.
Yeah.
Guest:I'm trapped.
Marc:I'm trapped in ISIS.
Marc:It's a good song, but oh my God.
Marc:So, but are you building any sort of following at any point?
Guest:Not until, I was really just doing like open mics and then I'd drive to the city, to Oklahoma City and do open mics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You could like find, there was like a classified section in like the local arts paper that just like listed all the open mics.
Marc:Like what years are this?
Marc:Like in the early 2000s or?
Guest:Yeah, it would have been like 2002, three, four.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But at what point does someone say, let's make a record?
Guest:I think how that kind of moved into me doing this for like a more of like a job thing was that right after I, well, after I graduated from high school, I tried college for like a semester at Oklahoma Baptist University.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was in Shawnee.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't know what I wanted to do.
Guest:So that just was like, well, it's here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I heard about a musician's like commune colony thing on Martha's Vineyard.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Where you could like apply, you could send in a tape and if you got picked, then you'd go live there for like eight months.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they would teach you how to like record your own music on Pro Tools.
Guest:Where'd you find that?
Guest:I just like heard about it through like friend of a friend.
Marc:And you got in?
Guest:Yeah, I applied and I sent in, I think I sent in a cassette tape recording of me doing The Times They Are Changing, I'm pretty sure.
Guest:If I remember correctly.
Guest:And I got selected to do that.
Guest:So I just went out to Martha's Vineyard and lived there for like eight months.
Marc:Was that the first time you were out of Oklahoma?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, we were traveling a lot for like the powerlifting.
Guest:But this was the first time that I felt like I was like doing something attached to music.
Marc:And on your own.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And again, you got to take the ferry out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're stuck on that island for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're stuck.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And you got to deal with the island people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I'd rather deal with the island or the island people than like the rich people that come in for like a month or two in the summer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Martha, like you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I used to do a gig out there because I lived in Boston for years.
Marc:And you got to take that.
Marc:What's that?
Marc:Something bluff where you take the boat out and go across and then you're just on the island.
Marc:But it's pretty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Isn't that the – I might be thinking of Nantucket.
Marc:Martha's Vineyard or Nantucket where they have to – they're not allowed to paint their houses any different colors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They have a lot of weird rules.
Guest:Like no chain like restaurants are like allowed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They all have to be like gray houses.
Guest:The gray like shingle.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So where is – how many people are in this thing?
Guest:There was, like, 20.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:So we all lived, like, in this big barn, like, in bunk rooms.
Guest:And we just, like... Played guitar?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We just jammed, honestly.
Guest:Jammed and learned how to, like, use Pro Tools.
Guest:And we put on, like, fake variety shows, like, once a week.
Guest:We'd all, like, form bands with different people.
Marc:And... So that's the first time you're playing with other people?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was the first time that I did a lot of, like, any sort of, like, collaboration or, like, learning how to...
Guest:I learned a lot about song structure, I think, just from seeing how other people did it.
Marc:And electric?
Marc:Were you guys playing real bands?
Marc:Was there drummers and stuff?
Guest:Yeah, real bands.
Guest:Real full bands.
Marc:So that must have been exciting.
Guest:Yeah, it was exciting.
Guest:It was good.
Marc:And after that, you felt more confident?
Guest:Yeah, I think I felt like...
Guest:Well, I've come out here and I've like done music with other people.
Guest:And so that sort of and I met I met this girl named Beth out there who we sort of just decided we would start like touring.
Guest:This was the days of MySpace when you could basically message venues on MySpace.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And send them like a song.
Guest:And if they liked you, they would just they book you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we just did that for like two years.
Guest:We just got a, I think it was like a Bonneville, like an old Bonneville, which had a massive trunk.
Guest:And we put our guitars in there and we just booked ourselves tours for like two years.
Marc:Did you play together or just one?
Guest:Like a duo.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's she up to?
Guest:She still does this, yeah.
Guest:She lives in St.
Guest:Louis, and she does, like, singer-songwriter stuff.
Marc:What's her name?
Guest:Beth Bombaro.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You guys still friends?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we're acquaintances.
Guest:Like, we've kind of, like, gone our own separate ways a little bit, but, like, we're still friendly.
Marc:Were you doing all original stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah, we were.
Marc:And, like, so that got you kind of, like, that toughened you up, I imagine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that was, like, the true road dog days where you're, like...
Guest:you know getting change off the ground and putting it in a sock so you can like buy your coffee the next morning and like staying with the craziest people you know because you can't you're not like at a level where you can like get a hotel or anything so like fans or people that just people that were at the bar not even fans like you know we're like playing on stage and we're just like if anyone's got a place for oh my god how am i still alive i don't know i don't know did it get weird
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So many, so many weird things.
Guest:There was like one time where we were in Nebraska.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this guy was like, we like went back to this guy's apartment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he asked us if we wanted like anything to drink.
Guest:And I think Beth was like, I'll take like a gin and tonic if you have it.
Guest:He came back with like a Walmart tumbler, like a giant, like 16 ounce glass.
Yeah.
Guest:Full of gin and tonic.
Guest:Heavy on the gin.
Guest:And we were like, we're going to go.
Guest:We're going to sleep in the car.
Guest:We were just like, this isn't good.
Guest:This is not.
Marc:That's so scary, man.
Guest:I know.
Marc:You would never think to do that now.
Guest:No.
Guest:I think you have to be just totally naive and feel invincible as a kid.
Marc:You're so lucky it didn't get too fucked up.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So after that, what leads to the studio?
Marc:What brings you the attention to do a record?
Guest:We just traveled around for two years, just touring a ton.
Guest:And then...
Guest:We, there was this guy that, oh, that's what it was.
Guest:Beth's boyfriend was in a band called Barry, which was like, I think they were based out of Chicago at the time.
Guest:It was a very like Midwest, part of that whole like Midwest post rock, like Captain Jazz sort of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm trying to, I wasn't very.
Marc:Classify it.
Guest:I wasn't very, like, into all of that music.
Guest:It was, like, very much the Midwestern, like, emo post-punk sort of scene that was going on at the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they were sort of part of that, and they let us come open for them on a tour.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And...
Guest:The lead singer, Joey, he had a little studio.
Guest:And so between tours, we recorded my first EP.
Guest:And then from there, I started doing what everyone tells you you shouldn't do, which is send an unsolicited demo to record labels.
Guest:And that's what I was doing.
Guest:I was literally just mailing my EP to different record labels.
Guest:And one of them ended up...
Guest:liking it and re-releasing it yeah it was kind of funny how it came about it was um the label was called ramzer records they're based out of north carolina yeah and their big band is the avett brothers yeah and yeah people love those guys
Guest:They do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They love them.
Marc:It's like there's so many chunks of music that I miss.
Marc:You know, I know Judd Apatow did like a big documentary on them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know these guys at all.
Guest:They have a very like insular like fan base.
Marc:But it's sort of like of the Americana ilk.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it feels like you kind of came up in that world a little bit.
Guest:I did, and it was not the right world for me to come up in.
Guest:You don't think so?
Guest:No.
Guest:I think it was so stilted for me.
Guest:I think it really affected...
Guest:like how long it's taken me to get to the point where I'm like making the records that I want to make.
Guest:I think I put out a lot of records where I was like trying because the label that I was on was very much like both feet in that world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that was how I was being like marketed.
Marc:Well, it probably made sense to them, you know, like aside from being a female artist, but being a native artist and having that representation in that type of music was probably, they were like, yeah, this is, this fits.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and I wore a plain old shirt.
Marc:Yeah, so you're good.
Guest:So they were like, you're good, come on.
Marc:But I mean, I thought that first album was good.
Marc:It sounds good, but you didn't feel like the songs in the night.
Guest:Oh, wow, okay.
Marc:But as I listened to the arc of your stuff, I could tell that you were kind of fighting to find your own groove.
Marc:But I mean, that band sounded pretty good to me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, the band was great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I mean, I think we always put out stuff that...
Guest:like sounded good enough but it just wasn't like what i right it wasn't like it wasn't matching wasn't matching what i was i was giving up like a lot of myself to like try to fit into this world that i actually didn't know much about i didn't even know like what americana was what they were like it's kind of hard to define isn't it i mean i think it's actually more of like a fashion sense than it is like a music honestly like i think it's more like a scene than it is like a type of
Marc:Well, that happens with music.
Marc:I mean, I guess there's a roots element to it, and it must all come from like, you know, it almost feels like some sort of—I'm sure people have thought about this, because I know the Americana world, and it seems to come from almost like, you know, the band, you know, that sensibility of—
Marc:you know, integrating all these kind of fundamentally American sounds and styles into this one thing that is kind of blues, kind of country, kind of, you know, whatever.
Marc:But there are artists that kind of fall into that.
Marc:But you're right.
Marc:They might not call themselves Americana.
Marc:But certain artists are like, well, if there's momentum behind this idea, this brand, you know, why not be in it?
Marc:But you're still doing all your own songs.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, so that was being represented.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:But I think I was because I was young and very unsure of myself.
Guest:I was maybe trying to write songs that maybe I am not the best at writing, you know, like trying to kind of make something fit into like a genre or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it seems like by kid face, you're in you.
Guest:I think I'm getting in there, yeah.
Guest:I really don't feel like I'm fully getting into finishing a record and being like, that was what I wanted to make until I started producing my own records.
Guest:And that wasn't until A Small Death, which is just the last record and then the EP.
Marc:That record's beautiful.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Because the sound is like, you know Jason Molina?
Yeah.
Guest:He's, he's my like, really, he's my, uh, excuse me, all natives.
Guest:He's my spirit animal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because like when I listened to that, I mean like through in some of the other records, you know, I can hear a through line of, you know, folks structure and style and some of the ways you write.
Marc:But like on that one, it was cause I'm like, he, he kills me.
Guest:He's amazing.
Marc:It's the best.
Marc:And, but I definitely heard that in, in that record.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, good.
Guest:I would love to channel anything about him.
Guest:He was a true, like, just like a true poet, a true, like, honest, open, raw nerve.
Guest:The vulnerability of it.
Marc:So vulnerable.
Marc:Like, I got choked up when you got excited about him.
Marc:Because there's something about...
Marc:What he makes present and available that at times it's almost hard to take.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so when did you ever meet him?
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:There's actually a song on Kid Face that is written for him.
Guest:It's called For the Minor.
Guest:I wrote that song for him.
Marc:That's a great song.
Marc:I wrote that down.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was actually, we were supposed to be like playing some shows with them later that year.
Guest:So I was going to get to meet him, but he passed away before that happened.
Guest:And so I wrote this song just like kind of commiserating that.
Guest:But like he, I had a lot of friends that knew him.
Guest:So I kind of got the down low about him through that.
Guest:But I had this moment where,
Guest:It was very early on when I started writing songs.
Guest:I was probably 16 or 17.
Guest:And I used to drive up to Oklahoma City a lot to go to this venue called The Conservatory, which was just like a DIY sort of punk club.
Guest:And there was a record store right next to it called Size Records.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This was back when you would kind of browse a CD shelf and buy a CD just because you like the cover.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And I bought a Songs Ohio CD.
Guest:I think it was The Lioness just because I liked the cover.
Guest:And I was driving home after the show that night and I put the CD in my car and was listening to it on my drive back.
Guest:And...
Guest:I was just like full, like crying more than I've ever cried in my life.
Guest:Like at age 16, not having felt anything that this guy has gone through because he's, you know, older than me.
Guest:I haven't experienced that in my life at this point.
Guest:And just like, I'm getting like emotional thinking about it.
Guest:Just like losing my mind at like how in touch it seemed like he was with me.
Marc:his thoughts and his like emotions and i was just like i want to do that like that's what i want to do yeah and and sort of elevating his struggle yeah you know on all levels it's it's hard to even explain it because i don't know that a lot of people know him they should but yeah well i mean he wasn't that much older than you no he was yeah i think he's like maybe i mean he died in his 30s i think
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know off the top of my head.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, no.
Guest:Maybe seven, eight years.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:Like, I came to him later.
Marc:You know, I didn't know his stuff because that label, which label was it?
Guest:Secretly Canadian?
Marc:Yeah, Secretly Canadian.
Marc:He used to send me records.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Marc:And, you know, they sent me that Magnolia Electric Company record with Farewell Transmission.
Marc:And I was like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:And then you got to go back and you're like, oh, and then you're in that guy's spirit, which is so heavy and beautiful.
Marc:And it's not just the words.
Marc:There's just something there's certain performers that have something in their voice.
Marc:where you can feel the weight of it, of whatever they're going through.
Marc:And Townes Van Zandt has that to a degree, where you listen to it and you're like, there's a sadness here that is unfathomable in a way.
Marc:And with those kind of performers, I can only listen to it because you've got to prepare yourself.
Guest:Yeah, you can only listen to it at certain times, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, oddly, I can't even listen to Brian Wilson.
Marc:And that's pretty upbeat stuff.
Marc:But he's so troubled.
Marc:And I can feel that.
Marc:I don't know what that resonates, why that resonates.
Marc:I tend to think that it's because I have a slightly depressive father.
Marc:So there's a neural pathway in my mind that lives there.
Marc:And then when someone can be in it, but kind of bring it up, it hits me very hard.
Guest:Same.
Guest:I think mine comes from the idea of loneliness.
Guest:I grew up with a very... I spent a lot of time alone.
Guest:And so I have a very...
Guest:introspective, like, lonely thing that I can get into.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it gets real dark and real sad real fast.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's, I think, when I hear someone like Jason Molina singing in that way, I can just imagine that he's, like, all alone.
Guest:And it's, like, affecting.
Guest:And navigating that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it's, like, hitting something really deep in me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess that's it, you know?
Marc:And it's so specific.
Marc:And I think that's an interesting thing about,
Marc:Art in general that, you know, so many of us and even because I, you know, the way I do what I do, it's pretty specific and it has to resonate with the person, people that are going to, you know, connect with that.
Marc:But it's hard to sort of realize, like, well, it's not everybody.
Marc:And because there's part of you that's sort of like, I want my stuff to be for everybody.
Marc:And then at a certain point, you got to just like, well, I'm helping these people.
Marc:Because there is a help element to it.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel that about your audience?
Guest:Yeah, I think, you know, I mean...
Guest:Just from the perspective of being a songwriter who's trying to pay their bills, there is that element that always pops up where you're like, I wish more people got this or something.
Guest:But honestly, I think the way that you just put it is perfect, which is just like, not everyone serves the same purpose within art.
Guest:I was just up in...
Guest:alaska in in sitka alaska at the end of january and i was helping out i was doing like a fundraiser for a tribe up there called the klingit so it's a kick saudi clan of klingit indians and they gave me an honor name called um which is i don't think i'm saying that completely right yeah but what it means is it comes from a story that means like uh
Guest:due to colonialism and how things have gone, all of their culture and traditions have been put in this box.
Guest:And there's like a lid on top of the box.
Guest:And there are people that come along that push the lid just a little bit off.
Guest:So more of the traditions and more of the culture, more of the language can come out.
Guest:And the verb, the action of pushing that lid off is the word shikhaikha.
Guest:So my name means to push a little bit off the edge.
Guest:And that's how I feel like my position as an artist or a musician is it's not to be the one that brings everything to the masses.
Guest:It's the one that just pushes music or art or songwriting or whatever just a little bit forward so that way somebody else down the line can grab something there and utilize it in their practice.
Guest:So I think...
Guest:Yeah, what I'm doing is not necessarily for the masses.
Guest:It's for me.
Guest:It's for my community.
Guest:It's for the people that come to the shows that connect really deeply with it.
Guest:But it's just sort of like another addition to what we need, which is just human vulnerability and connection.
Guest:That's literally all I'm trying to... And that's what you do in your shows.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's kind of a...
Marc:It's kind of a weighty – there's a heaviness to it.
Marc:But I'm 61, and to really accept that there is a – not limitations, but once you get to that place where you are who you are, I mean, if you're not happy there because of –
Marc:And the reaction to you or how many people react to you, you know, it's just a recipe for unhappiness.
Guest:You have to accept it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's not bad, you know, but like for years I was just sort of like, and you saw what I do.
Marc:I was sort of like, why doesn't everybody love this?
Marc:I mean, doesn't everybody experience what I'm experiencing?
Marc:And they don't.
Marc:They don't.
Marc:And, you know, the people that do kind of lock in in a way where it hits them differently than the people that are, like, looking at you like some totally different thing.
Marc:They don't understand it, but they're like, all right, they're getting laughs.
Marc:But the angle is sort of like, well, she's a little sad or he's got some problems.
Marc:But it was entertaining.
Marc:But then there are other people that are like, oh, thank God I'm not alone in this stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So but when you talk about the community, like what is the reaction in generally your experience with all the different tribes that you deal with in terms of performing and whatever?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think... They must be excited.
Guest:Yeah, because in general, the... I mean, the sign of, like, a living language is that... Not that people are just speaking it or, like, that it's still around or that there are speakers of it.
Guest:It's that if people are making... Like, writing books in the language or if they're writing songs or, you know, doing something with the language.
Guest:And so I...
Guest:I think like, I wish I could do more, but because I'm like kind of what I explained earlier, where the further in that you get, the harder it gets because it's more about like a mind change than just learning the language.
Guest:And so I'm in that situation now where I'm having to be more serious about like the, the, the mental capacity of writing in the language now.
Guest:But I think everybody that I've come across, um,
Guest:They they're they're like really starved for like wanting new like contemporary songs in like a indigenous language.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, I mean, I get I feel like it's it's just been like great to see people like respond to that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But in general.
Marc:But you still got to play to the masses a little bit.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I got to, I got to play to like English speakers, but that's what, I mean, I'm an English speaker.
Guest:So it's like, I've got feelings inside.
Guest:I've got to get out, you know, now I can't wait to learn the Choctaw language in full.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, but I just, I imagine not unlike, you know, just, you know, having a voice from that community is, is representation in a way where like, you know, we're still moving forward.
Marc:You know, and we, you know, we still have who we are, you know, whether it's English or not.
Marc:You know, and because I mean, I think I talked about that with Sterling and stuff is that and I read something somewhere that he had said something to you about activism.
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It might have been.
Guest:It might have been – like he had a podcast for a little bit.
Guest:Oh, did he?
Guest:Like before he got – Oh, okay.
Guest:Before he got in – turned into real big sterling.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That we did like a conversation on there once.
Guest:And he did say something really interesting to me once, which was about –
Guest:there's always this feeling like you're not doing enough, I guess, in quote-unquote activism of, like, pushing forward the, like... Agenda's not the right word, but, you know, pushing forward, like, the identity of Native peoples or something.
Guest:And I think I was expressing that to him, just feeling like, I'm not going to these, like, protests, and I'm not going... Because, like, I've got a job, and I've got to, like, do this.
Guest:And he was like...
Guest:You just being an active, like Choctaw artist, that's activism.
Guest:It's activism to be living, doing what you're doing at this moment.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Something to that extent.
Marc:Well, he said, because we weren't supposed to be alive.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:That was just I mean, I was like, oh, yeah.
Guest:OK, that makes sense.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Good job.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Well, so like coming into like so with Small Death that that you feel was the the sort of portal to you in exactly the way you wanted it to to be.
Marc:You know, why that record?
Marc:What what what do you think got you to that place?
Guest:Well, that record was really interesting because I was at a really dark time personally because I had just gotten into a pretty severe car wreck that, like, really affected my—like, I couldn't use my hands at all.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah, I had, like, gotten into a bad car wreck, and there was a lot of, like, skeletal and nervous system, like, damage.
Marc:What happened?
Marc:Were you on a highway or in a—
Guest:I was just, like, going through, like, kind of a busy, like, four-way intersection.
Guest:And, like, I got, like, T-boned.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's my biggest fear in life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I still flinch going through, like, four-ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It never happened to me, but I'm always scared of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it kind of messed up my—it did a lot of damage to, like, my shoulders and my neck, which affected my arms and my hands.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And so I got really depressed because I couldn't do... I couldn't play guitar.
Guest:I couldn't, like, sit down and, like, write.
Guest:I didn't think that I could, like, sit down and write songs.
Guest:I couldn't even, like, hold a cup, you know?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I got really depressed.
Guest:I was just, like, laying in bed for, like, you know, six months, seven months.
Guest:Just not in a good spot.
Guest:And I finally...
Guest:started reaching out to like different therapists physical therapists and stuff and i started working through a lot of the stuff and um but in the meantime i just had like a voice recorder that i would just lay in bed and like kind of hum songs into oh yeah and not thinking like i would ever get to
Guest:play them or anything i just thought this thing that i've spent my whole life doing which is being a musician yeah i'm not going to be that anymore and now i have to like figure out what i'm what i am now yeah i mean this is where the that's the danger of of is and are if you're thinking about like really
Guest:attaching like a caricature to yourself right the minute that that gets taken away who the fuck are you you know that's dangerous which they had that figured out right they were like we're not going to attach one thing to a person yeah you are a lot of things so but i was attaching one thing and it got taken away from me and i i lost it right but the voice you found within that yeah to save your brain yeah is what that record is yeah wow so that became
Guest:When I finally got sort of... Well, the other weird thing about that is that's when I started using open tunings, too, because as I couldn't do bar chords or things, as I started getting use of my hands, a friend of mine suggested...
Guest:Just tune it to where you just have to hold down like one string or something at a time.
Guest:It'll be easier on your hand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's when I started kind of going in that direction.
Marc:So that like used open tunings on that record?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's kind of when I started using them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, because that creates a whole other vibe.
Guest:Yeah, it's a different vibe.
Guest:And there's more space for other things to be doing stuff that you normally wouldn't hear.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because Keith Richards talks about that open G tuning as being kind of magical.
Marc:Because when you have those open strings, the vibe is totally different.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, it just it gives it lets your brain go, oh, I've never I've never noticed that space being open before.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So what can I put there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just opens up the arrangements and everything, too.
Guest:But that was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So eventually I got I could use my hands again.
Guest:And I went back to these little voice recordings and I started I started making demos and I was just like, I've got to turn.
Guest:This is a record.
Guest:So I've got to make the record.
Yeah.
Marc:But that's so amazing because, like, if you write like that, as opposed to, like, you know, writing on paper or sitting with a guitar and trying to, you know, or if you already have a melody or some chords, I don't know how you do it generally.
Marc:But the connection to yourself when you're just sort of like, it's just like, this is, you know.
Guest:Do you do that, like, with comedy?
Guest:Do you just ever, like, walk around or, like, talking to yourself?
Marc:No.
Marc:What I usually do is I think.
Marc:And then—
Marc:Step one is I think and then like if I make a connection in my head or I have a different way of looking at something, you know, I'll just I'll make note of it.
Marc:And it's not a joke, per se, but I know there's a turn there if it's not a story, you know, that you.
Marc:For me, usually I'll have an idea, but most of it evolves in real time on stage because it's almost like I corner myself.
Marc:Like I have a place I want to go and I'll just start going and I'll hope the part of my brain that makes things funny will step in and save me from embarrassment.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:I mean, I feel like that's how I live my life.
Guest:I'm just hoping that I'll make up the punchline before I get caught with my pants down.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah, that's the whole thing.
Marc:That is the edge of it.
Marc:And then over time, they kind of evolve.
Marc:With this bunch of stuff, in dealing with the political situation and my particular audiences and having to address that to sort of bring the people together and then kind of this idea.
Marc:I don't know if I was kind of doing it in Oklahoma yet.
Marc:Did I do the evacuating with my cats story?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's sort of built into something because I had this...
Marc:Because I'm pretty heavy.
Marc:It can be pretty heavy, a lot of that stuff.
Marc:And I'm riding this edge.
Marc:But I knew I had to address the political situation.
Marc:And that has a different tone to it.
Marc:And then I got it in my head.
Marc:It's like, all right, dude, you've established that.
Marc:So now can you just be entertaining?
Marc:Can you just these people just like, let's just go.
Marc:I mean, you've been doing this a long time.
Marc:Nothing has to be it doesn't have to all be so heavy.
Marc:So that cat thing was just sort of this gift.
Marc:And the way it kind of built out, you know, people, it's just hilarious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I get into trauma and stuff.
Yeah.
Guest:that's what i that's kind of like what i do at my shows i tend to be have little like quippy jokes and stories in between yeah which is someone has well a lot of people have noted to me like that what i do and say between songs is very different from the songs and it's like yeah because i know that like this shit is heavy yeah we're going in and i'm not trying to like make y'all want to kill yourself by the end of the night like
Guest:I would like you to understand that you can hold both things at the same time.
Marc:Not only can you hold it, but— You have to.
Marc:You have to, but it also shows this sort of—that you as a person—
Marc:It's a broad spectrum.
Marc:And sometimes I think that's a liability for me because I have a fairly – it's not just a big personality, but I have a lot of different wavelengths that I go on.
Marc:And anytime you can engage as many of those as possible, I think it's a good thing as an expressive person.
Marc:Because when you get locked into that thing that you said you were fighting with or that there no are or is –
Marc:That when you see yourself a certain way and then you kind of get locked into that, it becomes a box and, you know, you don't acknowledge – you don't take chances.
Marc:Do you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And when you do songs, if you want to lighten things up with your personality, I think it's the best thing.
Marc:But some people just want to lock into the, like, just do that thing.
Marc:Just make me sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, honestly, it's like probably easier to like market.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So like it's a lot easier when someone has like a specific persona.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:She does this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He does that.
Marc:And then you get in.
Marc:And then when you meet these people and you're like, well, I don't even know what you're talking about.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like because, oh, Maren's a cranky guy.
Marc:I'm like, no, I'm not.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:You know, that kind of stuff.
Guest:Had a cranky moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or that's some part of me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, like I'm pretty I'm pretty expansive.
Marc:Yeah, but that's – if they can't fit you into a box or you don't box yourself, it becomes sort of trickier to sell.
Marc:And then you've got to just do it on your own.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So once you – when you put out Small Death –
Marc:And you got your hands back after?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I still have, like, some issues, but I can play again.
Marc:But how did that inform the new record, Gumshoe?
Marc:How did that, like, what you did with Small Death?
Marc:Because, like, I just, I did a movie, and there's a book.
Marc:It's about Bruce Springsteen making Nebraska.
Okay.
Marc:And, you know, he was in the middle of, you know, kind of doing the songs for Born in the USA.
Marc:And then he had this kind of existential crisis.
Marc:And he holed himself up in, you know, some rented house in New Jersey with a guitar and a four track.
Marc:And he did Nebraska.
Marc:Do you know the record?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he became obsessed with the sound that he got on the cassette.
Marc:And after they tried to do the songs in the studio, he's like, no, I need the cassette.
Marc:I want that to be it.
Marc:And there was no way to transfer the cassette.
Marc:But the journey of him having this...
Marc:You know, he needed to make that record and it's a dark record, you know, and he comes out of that and he does born in the USA, but he almost had to exercise himself.
Marc:But and eventually I think it did inform some of his other stuff or it gave him a whole other range of ways to express himself.
Marc:Did you find that with it?
Guest:Yeah, I think, I mean, it's like what you were talking about earlier about not trying to put yourself in a box.
Guest:I think that record, A Small Death, allowed, that was the first time I produced a record myself.
Guest:And it was the first time I just fully trusted every decision and every feeling that I had.
Guest:And that opened up a whole new world.
Guest:And then I saw like how well it was received.
Guest:And so that opened up like a whole new world of just trusting myself.
Guest:Confidence.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Confidence and also just like not trusting myself, but also when you trust yourself, it's not like your opinion is the end all be all.
Guest:It's that you actually feel more comfortable receiving ideas and criticisms from other people.
Guest:Because you know that...
Guest:You have a trust that it's going to end up where it needs to be as long as you're present.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:You can collaborate, but you're not out of control.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, Ariana Grande talked about that, that she always sort of knew what she wanted.
Marc:And she's working with big, you know, kind of pop machines.
Marc:But it always comes back to her.
Marc:It comes down to her.
Guest:Did she sit in this very seat?
Marc:She did, yeah.
Guest:And I, like, rub.
Guest:I want some of her, like, good vibes to rub off on me.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:She's something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but that confidence, like, collaboration is a beautiful thing.
Marc:And you can find things that you wouldn't have found on your own.
Guest:It's so necessary for growth.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you have to be able to, like, accept, like, receive, not accept, but receive, like, how other people do their work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or else you're never going to learn anything new about yourself.
Marc:And also trust their art.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, so how did you make Gumshoe?
Marc:Who was it?
Guest:Well, so Gumshoe, even though it has ended up being about collaboration when we got to making the record, when I was writing the songs, it really was about opening myself up to collaborating with people.
Guest:And I'm talking about collaborating on an interpersonal level, like collaborating in relationships, collaborating in friendships, romantic relationships, family relationships.
Guest:And I had always been such a lone wolf.
Guest:So like...
Guest:unsure of myself so like I put up this really big like wall to protect myself from like what other people might have to say about what I was doing and I kind of got to this point where I was like
Guest:I'm only understanding a very small percentage of what the human experience is if I don't let other people into this life.
Guest:And I ended up in this...
Guest:Ended up.
Guest:That sounds... I was in this relationship for three years with somebody who was an addict.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was struggling a lot with what the right thing to do there was.
Guest:And trying to be vulnerable and let this person in, but also trying to protect myself...
Guest:It was just, like, kind of an impossible situation.
Marc:Well, yeah, it's like the codependency thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Codependent no more.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good one.
Marc:What, Pia Melody's book?
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:The amount of, like, NA meetings that, you know, that I've been to over the past three years.
Marc:Did you go to Al-Anon and stuff?
Guest:Yeah, Al-Anon, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Codependency is a fucker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I mean, I'm I'm still I still learned so much from that just in terms of like taking a chance on letting people just accept me for me and letting me accept people for who they are.
Guest:But at the same time, it was just like I was also trying to apply that to my friendships and my family relationships.
Marc:Well, yeah, not let yourself be erased, you know, have boundaries and, you know, show up for stuff and not just be taken advantage of all that stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you don't even get to that point of learning how to do that unless you kind of let yourself get taken advantage of.
Guest:Does that make sense?
Guest:Well, yeah, but you have to be vulnerable and like make those mistakes before you can get to that point.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you don't choose to do that.
Marc:It just happens.
Marc:It just happens.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you're like this.
Guest:I need to figure this out.
Marc:Reel this in.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:But I mean, once you learn how to have some of those boundaries and let those vulnerabilities out in a way that, you know, you can handle it.
Marc:What you do learn is like you've taken a lot of shit.
Marc:And so you can kind of.
Marc:Get a boundary, you know?
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's what gumshoe sort of comes from?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it comes from that whole process of, like, realizing that you have to open yourself up and be vulnerable, maybe not doing that in the most, like, smart or productive or safe way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then doing that process of, like, finding your boundaries, finding—trusting yourself, trusting your own voice in a situation and your own, like—
Guest:and then being able to utilize that in a more confident way, I think.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it ended up kind of informing how we recorded the record too, which was just like me letting in a couple of co-producers with me and also recording the whole record like in a room together.
Guest:No good.
Guest:And we're not like separate and doing stuff separately.
Guest:We're just like trusting each other in that moment in that room.
Guest:And...
Guest:And just sort of like, yeah, trusting that you can say, that's not really what I was thinking.
Guest:Or like, what do you think about this?
Guest:And just knowing that it's going to end up how it needs to without putting this like very angry like walls of like rules into a recording situation.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you have time, you know, to kind of play it out.
Guest:That was the biggest thing for me is because I've always worked on such a tight budget that everything has to be like planned and like, you know, you've got a certain amount of days to do this.
Guest:But with this one, we purposely went to this recording studio in Indiana because I could afford to just get it for 12 days.
Guest:So we could have time and like the luxury of like...
Guest:of letting ourselves sit into a, of like a environment and gel.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I think the one that popped out at me was that, uh, the B attitudes one.
Marc:Cause that seems like you kind of like, you know, like I'm ready to, to find a life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like I need to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want I want I want a piece of property.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm here.
Marc:I'm a grown up.
Marc:And there's things I kind of want.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I have to be ashamed of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, honestly, at the wrong time, though, it's like who wants to buy a piece of property right now?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe are they cheaper or more expensive?
Guest:I mean, sometimes when these horrible times happen, it's still more expensive, but maybe it'll get cheaper.
Marc:Do you want to stay in Oklahoma?
Guest:I don't know that I have a preference.
Guest:I know that Oklahoma will stay a massive part of my life and my future just because it is just part of me so much.
Guest:I don't know that I really fit in anywhere else, which is funny because I don't even feel like I fit in in Oklahoma, but I feel the most myself there.
Guest:When I'm out here, I just feel like everyone's looking at me like...
Guest:Who is that?
Guest:Like that person.
Guest:But nobody's thinking that.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:But that's me and my, I'm always viewing everything from up in the air.
Marc:Projecting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's like no one could, you know, yeah, that's a weird thing, that project.
Marc:Because, you know, no one's thinking about you that much.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:I had a drummer named Ann.
Guest:I love her so much.
Guest:And she's so beautiful.
Guest:And she would always spend so much time on her hair and makeup.
Guest:And every time we would walk by a storefront window, I'd catch her kind of looking because she wanted to make sure that she was always presentable.
Guest:And I remember saying once, I was like, nobody's looking at you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was probably not right, though, because she was so beautiful.
Guest:So maybe everyone was looking at her.
Marc:Well, it's what you think they're thinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what you think they're judging.
Marc:You know, most of the time when you think somebody's thinking about you, they're just like in their own world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because we all are.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So but the record's great.
Marc:And I'm glad you brought me a vinyl.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but like before we wrap it up, like how did you get involved with Fancy Dance?
Guest:Um, so I, how did I get it?
Guest:Erica, the director just reached out to me and I'm assuming, so she was one of the writers on reservation dogs and the indigenous arts community is pretty like tight and I've done, um, music for Sterling's like older movies and I did some music for some various, um,
Guest:indigenous like podcasts and stuff through the years and I'm assuming yeah Erica just kind of like knew who I was through that yeah and we had a talk about doing this I had never scored something that big you know I'd never done like a feature yeah and
Marc:And scoring is different than just writing songs.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:You've got to engage with the vibe.
Guest:It is collaborative in its nature.
Guest:You're trying to make somebody else's vision happen, more or less, not your own.
Guest:And I think she just wanted to have somebody that was...
Guest:that knew what that world was.
Guest:I mean, it's shot in Oklahoma, you know, it's dealing with indigenous people.
Guest:And I think I'm very comfortable with what that environment is like physically on screen.
Guest:I mean, it looks like where I live.
Guest:So it's like, I know what that environment sounds like and feels like, I know those people.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:We just had a conversation.
Guest:I think she had mentioned wanting it to feel very organic.
Guest:I don't know if I had the idea or she did, but we were just saying the majority of the movie is two people, and they're moving around a lot.
Guest:And so I wanted to make it feel like the only instruments...
Guest:That were being used were things that you could literally just stuff in a backpack and take with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I really was utilizing like the human voice a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like a tiny keyboard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was stuff that I knew that I could just put in a backpack and take with me.
Guest:I was trying to keep it very small the whole time I was doing that.
Marc:That's smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You had a whole vision for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good for you.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's good talking to you.
Guest:Step one.
Guest:Think.
Marc:Think.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I'm glad we did this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you for it.
Guest:Nice to see you again.
Guest:Nice to see you.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Samantha's new album, Gumshoe, is available now.
Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.
Marc:People, just ahead of Mother's Day, we posted a special bonus episode on the Full Marin.
Marc:It's a collection of some moms talking with me about mom stuff.
Marc:Amy Poehler, Paula Poundstone, Allie Wong, Elizabeth Banks, Wanda Sykes, Brooke Shields, and my very own mommy, Toby Marin.
Marc:All right, but so you're happy then.
Marc:You're relaxed and I'm finally doing okay.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, I love you, Mom.
Guest:Is that it?
Guest:I'm done.
Marc:Well, what do you want to talk about?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just want you to know that I do love you.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I'm super proud of you.
Guest:And I really, I can honestly tell you, Mark, that when I hear your interviews, I'm in awe.
Guest:I just can't imagine how you come about bringing all these people out like you do.
Guest:I think it's totally amazing.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And I'm in awe.
Guest:What can I tell you?
Guest:That's the truth.
Marc:Well, that makes me happy to hear.
Marc:I'm glad that, you know, I've impressed you and that you're proud of me.
Guest:And I'm glad you found this niche that is so great for you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm a little choked up now.
Marc:Thank you, Mom.
Guest:I love you, Mark.
Marc:I love you too.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:To get bonus episodes twice a week, sign up for the full Marin.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.
Marc:Here's a classic guitar riff from the Marin Vault.
Marc:.
Bye.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey and La Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.