Episode 1634 - Ryan Coogler

Episode 1634 • Released April 14, 2025 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?

00:00:14Marc:What's happening?

00:00:14Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:15Marc:This is my podcast.

00:00:17Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:18Marc:What is happening?

00:00:20Marc:How's it going?

00:00:21Marc:How's it feeling?

00:00:24Marc:I just want to check in.

00:00:26Marc:Tough times.

00:00:27Marc:Tough times in the world.

00:00:29Marc:Tough times if you think a certain way.

00:00:31Marc:Tough times in your head if they're already tough already.

00:00:35Marc:Already tough already.

00:00:36Marc:Yeah, I just said that sentence.

00:00:38Marc:Look, I'm sitting in a hotel room in Traverse City, Michigan.

00:00:43Marc:I did two shows here last night, and they went really nice.

00:00:47Marc:They went well.

00:00:48Marc:It was a nice little theater.

00:00:49Marc:It's a comedy festival up here.

00:00:51Marc:I've never been up to Traverse City.

00:00:54Marc:On some level, in my immediate world right now, I'm in a room.

00:00:59Marc:I'm looking out on what I imagine is Lake Michigan, correct?

00:01:04Marc:Correct.

00:01:04Marc:And it's pretty.

00:01:06Marc:It's a little overcast.

00:01:07Marc:It's quiet because this is a summer town.

00:01:10Marc:So it's got that summer town off-season vibe.

00:01:15Marc:I guess it's similar to like an island, like island people.

00:01:20Marc:I mean, there are definitely locals who spend the summer accommodating tourists who are there to have a good time.

00:01:29Marc:And then here we are in the sort of...

00:01:32Marc:Off-season time where, you know, the locals kind of can relax and sort of fortify their spirits in preparation to hide the resentment for the demanding tourists of the summer season.

00:01:46Marc:So it's kind of got a nice vibe.

00:01:48Marc:So look, folks, today on the show I talked to Ryan Coogler.

00:01:51Marc:He's the writer and director of Fruitville Station, Creed, and the two Black Panther movies.

00:01:57Marc:His new film is called Sinners, which he made with his frequent collaborator, Michael B. Jordan.

00:02:03Marc:And it's a pretty trippy movie.

00:02:05Marc:I didn't know what to expect.

00:02:06Marc:A lot of times I get guests and I get screeners.

00:02:09Marc:But this movie is definitely a horror movie.

00:02:12Marc:I think it's...

00:02:14Marc:Jordan Peele does his thing, but there seems to be sort of a world of black-centric horror that's coming out that's pretty intense and pretty engaging.

00:02:25Marc:And I had no idea what this movie was about, but it's sort of focused in the story of the blues, and it's very grounded in music and mysticism and vampires.

00:02:38Marc:Yeah.

00:02:38Marc:So there's a lot to be liked about this movie.

00:02:41Marc:And it was very interesting to talk to Ryan because I also watched Fruitvale Station, which I hadn't seen, which is a devastating movie about a police officer killing a black young man.

00:02:57Marc:And it's based on a true story.

00:02:59Marc:And, you know, all this stuff...

00:03:03Marc:Still happens and continues to happen and continues to get worse, but it was good to talk about where Ryan came from and what his vision for films are.

00:03:16Marc:I'm in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter starting this Monday, April 14th, then on Saturday, April 26th, and again on Tuesday, April 29th.

00:03:24Marc:Those are all 7.30 p.m.

00:03:26Marc:shows.

00:03:26Marc:I'm at Largo.com.

00:03:28Marc:8 p.m.

00:03:29Marc:show on Tuesday, April 22nd.

00:03:31Marc:Toronto.

00:03:32Marc:I'm at the Winter Garden on Saturday, May 3rd for two shows.

00:03:35Marc:Burlington, Vermont.

00:03:36Marc:I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th and one show on Tuesday, May 6th.

00:03:42Marc:Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

00:03:43Marc:I'll be at the Music Hall on Wednesday, May 7th.

00:03:45Marc:Then I'm in Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

00:03:50Marc:Two shows there.

00:03:52Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

00:03:58Marc:Yeah, so I've been away a lot, and I'm a bit untethered out here.

00:04:03Marc:But again, out here in the world, a lot of good people, a lot of nice people, a lot of people that come out and enjoy the relief.

00:04:13Marc:It's a very strange thing, though, after a show, that I know that I'm doing a show, and I know that my audience, mostly...

00:04:22Marc:They are grateful for the show and they get some laughs, but then you leave and you walk out into the world of what's happening politically and what's happening in your own mind and your concerns about your own life.

00:04:34Marc:I've had some federal workers come up to me after the show who are on the edge of losing their jobs or have already lost their jobs.

00:04:42Marc:There's not a lot of places to go in the mind itself.

00:04:46Marc:in terms of, and in reality, in terms of hope or knowing what to do next with one's life and one's purpose.

00:04:57Marc:And it's just, it's fucking brutal, but it's happening.

00:05:02Marc:And I am...

00:05:03Marc:appreciative or relieved that some people in the broader cultural media universe are starting to acknowledge what's happening and acknowledge that what we're seeing here is a very aggressive authoritarian

00:05:20Marc:And I know that the sort of response to that on the other side and a sort of limited information side is that, well, he was elected, democratically elected, yeah, by a small margin.

00:05:34Marc:But, you know, that is one of the blind sides of democracy is you may elect a monster.

00:05:39Marc:And I don't know.

00:05:40Marc:I honestly don't know in my mind in terms of what people are really like, you know, how people still see strength or hope or a benefit to the country in the future with what's going on.

00:05:56Marc:But it is happening.

00:05:58Marc:It is happening.

00:06:01Marc:It is happening.

00:06:05Marc:And at some point, you got to stand up and be counted somehow.

00:06:09Marc:probably through some database that some techno overlord is pilfering, but maybe from your own place and from your own point of view.

00:06:21Marc:I don't mean to be heavy, but Jesus Christ, I'm out here doing nothing but thinking and wandering around, and look, I can appreciate where I'm at, but still, the mind is churning, the information on the phone is churning,

00:06:36Marc:And it's hard not to personalize it and crumble.

00:06:38Marc:But try not to crumble, people.

00:06:40Marc:Try.

00:06:43Marc:Oh, man.

00:06:43Marc:This is.

00:06:45Marc:I'm sorry.

00:06:45Marc:I can tell you about Grand Rapids.

00:06:47Marc:I was surprised about Grand Rapids, Michigan.

00:06:51Marc:What a pleasant city.

00:06:52Marc:What a pleasant city.

00:06:54Marc:And I can talk about why.

00:06:56Marc:That'll be nice.

00:06:57Marc:And again, very nice people, meeting a lot of nice people.

00:07:00Marc:And they're still out there.

00:07:01Marc:And they're not, you know, people aren't hiding yet.

00:07:05Marc:One thing that always moves me, which I don't quite know why, but I'm always fascinated.

00:07:11Marc:And there's great examples of this in California.

00:07:15Marc:in Grand Rapids is when you have these older buildings, either built at the turn of the century, these old kind of buildings that were once businesses, some cities that do some kind of renovation or urban renewal of whatever kind kind of treat these museums with a certain amount of respect.

00:07:33Marc:Sometimes they leave the ghost of the old signs of the business that once occupied the building on the building, and they usually kind of clean up the bricks and put new windows in.

00:07:44Marc:And it becomes sort of a kind of a museum piece with respect for some other time that has gone by or at least a structure.

00:07:53Marc:And Grand Rapids is full of these buildings in certain sections right near downtown.

00:07:58Marc:And I just I love looking at them.

00:08:01Marc:I love I love looking at brick.

00:08:04Marc:And I love looking at old buildings from the early 1900s that have been renovated with new windows, cleaned up bricks.

00:08:12Marc:And for some reason, I get a real sort of poetic and moving vibe from them.

00:08:19Marc:I just love seeing when they're treated nicely.

00:08:22Marc:and taken care of.

00:08:24Marc:And there's a lot of that in Grand Rapids.

00:08:27Marc:And there's also some of the best coffee I ever had in my life in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

00:08:32Marc:And that's weird.

00:08:32Marc:And sometimes I don't know what that means since God knows how much coffee I've drank in my life.

00:08:37Marc:But sometimes you go to a place and you're like, oh my God, this coffee is amazing.

00:08:41Marc:I'm sure I've had that experience many times in my life at different points and in different places.

00:08:46Marc:But this Lantern Coffee in Grand Rapids was just fucking amazing.

00:08:52Marc:Outside of that, the show was great.

00:08:54Marc:There's a venue there that is kind of astounding.

00:08:57Marc:And I noticed sound.

00:09:02Marc:I'm very sort of sensitive to sound.

00:09:07Marc:And this venue, GLC Live at 20 Monroe in Grand Rapids...

00:09:11Marc:is not an old theater.

00:09:13Marc:It's a newly built structure for live music and live events.

00:09:17Marc:And sometimes if they're designed well, you don't know where they're going to happen or how they happen or who designed it.

00:09:23Marc:But this is primarily a rock venue.

00:09:24Marc:But in terms of sight lines and in terms of the stage, it's just fucking perfect.

00:09:30Marc:And because of the way the structure was designed, the room is dead, which I'm a big fan of.

00:09:36Marc:When you do audio recording, a dead room means that you'll...

00:09:40Marc:You won't get any noise.

00:09:41Marc:You won't hear cars in the background.

00:09:42Marc:You won't hear bounce.

00:09:43Marc:But to be in a venue where the entire place was like that, it was kind of like a privilege to work in a place where the sound is so honest.

00:09:55Marc:And that venue is amazing.

00:09:57Marc:So I don't know if you live in Grand Rapids or you live close to Grand Rapids, but I imagine if you have an opportunity to go see a show at that place, GLC Live at 20 Monroe, I would do that.

00:10:09Marc:I would do that again.

00:10:11Marc:I'm sorry about the heaviness at the beginning.

00:10:13Marc:I'm just trying to manage, you know, I can only take so much of the world before I refocus on my cats at home.

00:10:21Marc:And apparently, even though I've been trying to medicate Charlie and trying to get that thing under control, that little monster, I'm not sure it's working from the reports I'm getting from the woman babysitting my cats.

00:10:34Marc:And, uh,

00:10:36Marc:I don't know.

00:10:36Marc:So Charlie's medicated, I'm medicated, and this busporin, though I was optimistic and excited at the beginning, I'm not sure that it's doing what I want it to do, hence the opening of this particular podcast.

00:10:51Marc:But again, that's reasonable.

00:10:53Marc:But how much time during the day do I need to obsess and panic about it?

00:10:58Marc:I mean, right now, nothing's happening out my window.

00:11:02Marc:Lake Michigan is calm.

00:11:05Marc:There's a nice overcast.

00:11:07Marc:There seems to be some hills in the distance.

00:11:09Marc:That's what's happening right now in my real-time life.

00:11:14Marc:What's happening in my mind, that's layers.

00:11:18Marc:All I'm thinking about is Charlie beating up on the other cats, authoritarianism happening in my country, the future, what's going to happen when I go to New York, when I go to Toronto, when I go here or there.

00:11:31Marc:I'm happy I'll be home for a few hours, for a few weeks.

00:11:35Marc:Before all these shows to kind of tighten up the hour.

00:11:39Marc:Yeah, my health, my mind, my physical fitness.

00:11:43Marc:Like it just is ongoing at all times.

00:11:48Marc:And the only way to counter that is maybe I can lock into my phone and just completely have singleness of focus on bullshit that I can hold in my hand.

00:11:59Marc:Or I can just panic.

00:12:01Marc:And I thought that the medicine would kind of temper that, but it doesn't seem to be doing it.

00:12:05Marc:And clearly Charlie is shitting outside the box and beating the fuck out of the other cats.

00:12:10Marc:So I guess Charlie and I together are going to have to...

00:12:14Marc:move through this medication trial, you know, and figure out what's happening for both of us.

00:12:19Marc:I'll get home and we'll reconnect on that and see what we can do.

00:12:24Marc:I don't fucking know, man.

00:12:26Marc:Man, first couple of days of this trip, sometimes that three-hour time difference, I was just fucked up and beside myself, a little loopy.

00:12:34Marc:But again...

00:12:36Marc:The shows have been good.

00:12:38Marc:Focusing on the work has been helpful.

00:12:42Marc:You know, trying to get exercise and eat right has been helpful.

00:12:46Marc:Talking to like-minded people and talking to close friends about what I'm going through and what they're going through has been helpful.

00:12:55Marc:Kind of figuring out a path to sort of take action in ways that I can.

00:13:00Marc:Speak my mind in ways that I can is helpful and important.

00:13:05Marc:Stressful time.

00:13:06Marc:And there's some two levels of concern or care.

00:13:14Marc:You do have to take care of yourself and your vessel and your mind, but you also have to stay engaged and take action in any way you can to push back on what is happening.

00:13:26Marc:Okay.

00:13:27Marc:Okay, look, so Ryan Coogler, very interesting guy, interesting story, great filmmaker.

00:13:34Marc:The movie Sinners opens in theaters this Friday, April 18th.

00:13:37Marc:It's showing in IMAX, which is the format Ryan encourages you to see it in.

00:13:42Marc:It is a horror movie.

00:13:43Marc:It is a...

00:13:45Marc:a vampire-centric horror movie, but in a very unique way.

00:13:48Marc:It's framed around music and around the blues and around the black experience from the Delta to Chicago, back to the Delta.

00:13:58Marc:And the different sort of ways he approaches music in the movie are interesting.

00:14:04Marc:And look, I'll let it speak for itself.

00:14:08Marc:This is me talking to Ryan Coogler.

00:14:12¶¶

00:14:19Guest:My wife was a sign language interpreter before I convinced her to make movies with me.

00:14:22Guest:Really?

00:14:23Guest:Yeah.

00:14:24Guest:So you can do it?

00:14:25Guest:I can, I can finger spill.

00:14:26Guest:Yeah.

00:14:27Guest:Yeah.

00:14:27Guest:I can't, I can't, um, I can't do the word.

00:14:29Guest:I'm not like her, bro.

00:14:31Guest:Yeah.

00:14:31Guest:She, she's, did she used to, uh, where'd she do it for?

00:14:35Guest:She did it.

00:14:36Guest:Um, her first job, she got hired by a nonprofit company.

00:14:41Guest:called Dakora.

00:14:42Guest:Yeah.

00:14:43Guest:So she would help, basically help deaf people find work and get them acclimated on their job.

00:14:48Guest:Oh, wow.

00:14:49Guest:And then when I did Creed 1, she decided that she wanted to come, because she was always there for me whenever I made movies, even when I was in film school.

00:14:57Guest:She was always basically producing.

00:14:59Guest:Right.

00:15:00Guest:Though it wasn't like an official thing, because I was in film school where everybody on the crew had to kind of be

00:15:05Guest:Part of school.

00:15:06Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:15:08Guest:And I'm at Fruitville.

00:15:09Guest:She was working her 9 to 5, but she would come, you know, because, you know, she working eight-hour days.

00:15:14Guest:Yeah.

00:15:15Guest:We working 12s.

00:15:16Guest:Yeah.

00:15:17Guest:And she would get off work, come straight to set.

00:15:18Guest:Yeah.

00:15:19Guest:When I got Creed going, she decided that she wanted to come with me to Philadelphia to be there for me.

00:15:25Guest:She got a leave of absence from her job.

00:15:27Guest:Right.

00:15:28Guest:Right.

00:15:28Guest:But then she basically became an independent contractor, like an independent sign language interpreter.

00:15:33Guest:Yeah.

00:15:34Guest:And got hired by an agency in Philadelphia while we were there.

00:15:37Guest:So she was working there.

00:15:38Guest:Oh, wow.

00:15:39Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:40Guest:Helping a student at school this day and helping somebody on job training another day.

00:15:45Guest:And then she would come to set when she got done.

00:15:47Marc:So she got part of a temporary job placement place that needed interpreters for whatever.

00:15:54Marc:Exactly.

00:15:54Marc:So she just stayed busy and do service.

00:15:57Guest:Yep.

00:15:57Guest:And then did the same thing in L.A.

00:15:59Guest:when I was in Post.

00:16:01Guest:And then when I did Panther, she did the same thing, you know, like was working in L.A.

00:16:05Guest:And then I convinced her after that movie to start making films, you know, full time.

00:16:08Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:16:09Marc:Yeah.

00:16:10Marc:Well, because that's an interesting, you know, thing in that, I mean, she didn't have to work, right?

00:16:18Guest:I mean, back then she did, yeah.

00:16:20Guest:Yeah.

00:16:22Guest:Yeah, back then, bro.

00:16:24Guest:Yeah, I wasn't making no money.

00:16:25Guest:Even on Creed, though?

00:16:27Guest:I mean, she must... I mean, I was 200 grand in debt from film school.

00:16:31Guest:So, yeah, it was bad.

00:16:34Guest:Like, you know, we wasn't married yet neither.

00:16:36Guest:Like, we was engaged.

00:16:38Guest:Yeah.

00:16:39Guest:But she was, you know, we don't come from no money, bro.

00:16:43Guest:So, like, it was, you know, we didn't get to the place where, you know, you could argue she didn't have to work till, like, after camping.

00:16:48Marc:Well, I just wondered if she, you know, it was part of a feeling of...

00:16:53Marc:service to do the work.

00:16:55Guest:100%, bro.

00:16:56Guest:Yeah.

00:16:56Guest:Yeah, 100%.

00:16:57Guest:Yeah.

00:16:57Guest:100%.

00:16:58Guest:But she also come from like, you know, salt of the earth people.

00:17:00Guest:Like her pop is, her pop is 93 right now.

00:17:02Guest:93.

00:17:03Guest:And her mom is from the Philippines, moved to the Bay Area when she was like, when she was like 20, 21.

00:17:10Guest:Yeah.

00:17:10Guest:So she first generation on her,

00:17:13Guest:on her mom's side, and then she, Silent Generation, you know, on her dad's side, you know what I mean?

00:17:20Guest:And, you know, it came up without a lot.

00:17:22Guest:So she always was a worker.

00:17:25Guest:You know, she was always going to get hired, you know what I'm saying?

00:17:28Marc:But it's rare that I think you find people, and they're very important, that do work that helps people.

00:17:35Marc:100%.

00:17:36Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:37Guest:No, no, no.

00:17:37Guest:Yeah, like real work.

00:17:38Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:39Guest:Yeah, that builds people up.

00:17:41Guest:Yeah.

00:17:41Guest:Yeah, 100%.

00:17:42Guest:Most people are out for themselves.

00:17:44Guest:Yeah.

00:17:45Guest:No, not her.

00:17:46Marc:Yeah.

00:17:48Guest:You grew up in that as well, right?

00:17:50Guest:Yeah.

00:17:50Guest:Yeah, my mom worked for a nonprofit founded by a Jesuit priest in Oakland, and they did community organization.

00:18:05Guest:Right.

00:18:05Guest:The nonprofit itself would employ and train community organizers that would then go out and train communities.

00:18:11Guest:It was an international organization.

00:18:12Guest:My mom was an executive, though.

00:18:14Guest:She started off as the founder's secretary.

00:18:18Guest:Yeah.

00:18:18Guest:And then eventually worked our way up to being like the CFO of the organization before she left it.

00:18:23Guest:Like, in those situations, though, like—

00:18:25Guest:What is the job of a community organizer?

00:18:28Guest:To be honest with you, bro, I don't know.

00:18:31Guest:My mom's job was what I knew.

00:18:34Guest:She worked in an office in Oakland, not far from my school.

00:18:39Guest:She did a lot of paperwork.

00:18:41Guest:She had a copy machine and a computer.

00:18:44Guest:You knew that.

00:18:44Guest:Upstairs and a downstairs.

00:18:46Guest:Upstairs was where our boss was.

00:18:48Guest:He ran the organization.

00:18:50Guest:I was a kid, bro.

00:18:51Guest:He had a lot of papers.

00:18:53Guest:People would come in and meet.

00:18:55Marc:You know what I'm saying?

00:18:58Marc:It's weird because I ask because I have had a lot of Oakland around me lately because I had Delroy in here a couple days ago.

00:19:04Guest:Yeah, Delroy lives.

00:19:06Guest:He's from somewhere else, but he lives in Oakland.

00:19:08Guest:He's lived in Oakland for like, I don't know, what, 40 years?

00:19:10Guest:Yeah.

00:19:10Marc:And then like last week I was with Kamau.

00:19:13Marc:You know Kamau?

00:19:14Marc:I'm not Kamau, I will.

00:19:15Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:19:17Marc:And then I ran, just last night I ran into Boots.

00:19:20Marc:Boots is from Auckland.

00:19:21Guest:Yeah.

00:19:21Guest:Yeah, Boots is from Auckland.

00:19:23Marc:I just went to a restaurant and I saw that hat.

00:19:25Guest:See that hat, the red hat?

00:19:26Guest:Yeah.

00:19:28Guest:You know what's funny?

00:19:30Guest:Last time I saw Boots, I was in a restaurant and saw the Red Hat.

00:19:33Guest:It was like a year and a half ago.

00:19:34Guest:It was actually just a year and some change ago.

00:19:38Guest:It was before we both made our movies.

00:19:40Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:19:40Guest:Because he's finishing his right now, too.

00:19:41Guest:Right, right.

00:19:42Marc:Well, this must be his second or third movie, right?

00:19:45Marc:His second movie.

00:19:46Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:47Guest:Because he did that TV show.

00:19:48Guest:Yeah, and he did the weird movie, that crazy movie.

00:19:52Guest:Yeah, it's incredible.

00:19:53Guest:It's Sorry to Bother You.

00:19:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, with the horse-headed guys.

00:19:58Guest:I loved it, man.

00:19:59Guest:I love Boose.

00:20:00Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:01Guest:Whenever I talk to him, I almost brought my notebook in here.

00:20:04Guest:I feel the same way about when I listen to your podcast.

00:20:07Guest:Yeah.

00:20:08Guest:You're going to say something.

00:20:09Guest:It's a strong chance you're going to say something I should write down.

00:20:11Guest:I doubt it.

00:20:12Guest:Boose is like that, man.

00:20:14Guest:Yeah.

00:20:14Guest:Sometimes I'll bring my notebook when he's talking to me because he'll talk to me about, like, history.

00:20:19Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:20:19Guest:And he got such a unique perspective, you know what I'm saying, like being a musician and a filmmaker.

00:20:25Marc:Yeah.

00:20:25Marc:So, like, I had a good conversation with Delroy.

00:20:28Marc:He's an amazing guy, amazing actor.

00:20:31Marc:But when I went to see the movie, you know, I went to see Sinners, and I didn't really know anything about it.

00:20:37Yeah.

00:20:37Marc:Right?

00:20:39Marc:So I go over there, and I had no idea it was a music movie.

00:20:43Marc:You know, and I'm kind of like a blues person.

00:20:45Marc:I see all the guitars.

00:20:46Marc:Yeah, you know, I got Helen Wolfe up here on the wall.

00:20:49Guest:Wow, yeah.

00:20:50Guest:That's Chuck Berry, and then there's a picture of...

00:20:53Guest:Oh, that's a mouth.

00:20:54Guest:They got a wolf.

00:20:55Guest:Yeah.

00:20:55Guest:That's amazing.

00:20:56Guest:That's a good one, right?

00:20:57Guest:It's beautiful.

00:20:58Guest:Doing the thing.

00:20:59Guest:Yeah.

00:20:59Guest:I see Chuck now.

00:21:00Guest:Yup.

00:21:01Guest:Yup.

00:21:01Guest:And that's, and that's Mick.

00:21:02Marc:That's Mick.

00:21:02Marc:Yeah.

00:21:03Marc:Yeah.

00:21:03Marc:But, uh, but so like I get in there and right, right out of the gate, I'm like, Oh shit, it's a blues movie.

00:21:11Marc:That's awesome.

00:21:12Marc:I'm like, all right.

00:21:13Marc:I had no idea where we were starting, but we start right at the Delta.

00:21:18Marc:What is it?

00:21:19Marc:Probably the 30s?

00:21:20Marc:32.

00:21:20Marc:32, yeah.

00:21:23Marc:So it's after the old, old guys.

00:21:26Marc:Yeah, just after.

00:21:27Marc:Right, you're getting into the guys that knew them, but are the next ones, and then some of them moving up to Chicago.

00:21:34Marc:But in terms of this movie was...

00:21:38Marc:After Creed, after the Creed, after Black Panther, what makes you want to kind of get into this story?

00:21:48Guest:Man, that's such a good question, bro.

00:21:50Guest:So I tend to make movies, like I'm drawn to stories about identity.

00:21:56Guest:And in my identity as a...

00:21:59Guest:as an American, as an African American, a black man, what some folks would call a foundational black American, meaning my ancestors have been here a very long time.

00:22:12Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:22:14Marc:Have you traced it?

00:22:15Marc:I mean, it's an interesting name.

00:22:16Guest:I never heard your last name before.

00:22:18Guest:Oh, yeah, it's a German name.

00:22:19Guest:It's German, okay.

00:22:20Guest:It's a German name.

00:22:21Guest:Yeah, so it means somebody German owned one of my ancestors.

00:22:24Guest:Right, right, yeah.

00:22:25Guest:Right, and

00:22:26Guest:You know, it's something that I'm always—it affects, you know, everything.

00:22:31Guest:You know, my identity, like culturally, my identity personally.

00:22:35Guest:And the older I get, the more I'm interested in the question.

00:22:40Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:22:41Guest:Like I was interested in this question when I was a kid, and now I have kids.

00:22:44Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:22:45Guest:And I'm even more interested in it, you know, in getting to—

00:22:48Guest:getting to the root of why I am who I am now, but also why the world is the way it is and what's my place in that.

00:22:57Guest:So with Fruitville, I was telling a story about a place that I know.

00:23:07Guest:That was like down the street.

00:23:09Marc:Down the street, exactly.

00:23:11Marc:It's a devastating film.

00:23:14Marc:You know, the way you shoot it, it's kind of intimate and menacing.

00:23:19Guest:Yeah.

00:23:20Marc:And the decision to include the real footage at the beginning... Yeah.

00:23:24Marc:You know, because you know what's going to happen.

00:23:26Marc:Yeah.

00:23:27Marc:And then it's the process of humanization.

00:23:29Marc:Yes.

00:23:30Guest:Yes, sir.

00:23:31Guest:Yeah.

00:23:31Guest:Which is what the camera is capable of doing.

00:23:35Guest:Yes.

00:23:35Guest:You know, and we know this in the ages.

00:23:38Guest:Everybody's got a high def...

00:23:39Guest:You know, the camera in their pocket.

00:23:41Guest:You know what I mean?

00:23:43Guest:And the world has been changed by that, but also reinforced in some ways.

00:23:49Guest:But, you know, for me, you know, each film, I like to start with a question.

00:23:54Guest:And for Fruitvale, the question was...

00:23:57Guest:you know, initially it was like, how could this happen here?

00:24:00Guest:Because I had a view of the Bay Area, and I think everybody did, had their own personal view of the Bay Area, and the question of how a man could be, you know, essentially executed.

00:24:10Guest:You know, this is where the Panthers were founded.

00:24:12Guest:Yes.

00:24:12Guest:Where we're from, and they were founded for this very reason, because these things were happening.

00:24:16Guest:Yeah.

00:24:16Guest:You know what I mean?

00:24:17Guest:So in studying that film...

00:24:19Guest:you know, I got to dig in, but also, like, discover things about myself.

00:24:23Guest:You know what I mean?

00:24:23Guest:On that movie, I realized I wanted children.

00:24:25Guest:You know, like, I didn't think I wanted kids before I made that movie, but through the process of making it, of many things, it was also a story about a father, you know, a young father, you know, and I was like, oh, man, I'm gonna...

00:24:37Guest:I want to see what that's like to have, you know, and for Creed, I got the idea for that because my father had gotten sick, you know, in a way I didn't understand.

00:24:45Guest:Is he still around?

00:24:47Guest:Yeah, he's good.

00:24:48Guest:Oh, good.

00:24:48Guest:He's good.

00:24:49Guest:But, you know, it was touch and go for a while while I came up with that idea.

00:24:54Marc:Yeah, now when you, like, to go back to Fruitville for a minute, like, so you heard that story and something about that story, and it's a sadly common story,

00:25:07Marc:Is that, you know, there was no way for you not to identify with the possibility and the reality of that.

00:25:13Marc:Yes.

00:25:15Marc:And so when you start to decide to create a story around that guy.

00:25:20Marc:Yep.

00:25:22Marc:Do you talk to his wife or his girlfriend?

00:25:24Marc:Yeah, I talk to everybody.

00:25:25Marc:You talk to all of them?

00:25:26Marc:Yeah, I talk to everybody.

00:25:28Marc:Because what unfolds there is interesting is that to honor that guy's memory, the honesty that you took to that story, which is like he's a flawed guy.

00:25:40Marc:He's got problems.

00:25:41Marc:Yeah, totally.

00:25:42Marc:And, you know, but he's not different than anybody else.

00:25:44Marc:He's just trying to get by.

00:25:46Marc:Yeah.

00:25:46Marc:And then, you know, this horrendous thing happens to him specifically because of racism, really.

00:25:55Marc:And then, you know, it's weird every time you see a movie like that or you hear a story like that, you're like, well, did that fucker have to pay?

00:26:03Marc:Yeah.

00:26:03Marc:That cop.

00:26:04Marc:Yeah.

00:26:05Marc:And it's never enough.

00:26:06Marc:Nah.

00:26:08Marc:So you learned about yourself, even approaching the guy as a father, that by telling that story, you're able to create a full picture of...

00:26:20Marc:not just a tragedy, but bringing the humanism to it.

00:26:25Marc:This is a guy just trying to get by.

00:26:27Guest:Yeah, totally, totally.

00:26:29Guest:And a guy from a community, a guy who had people who he loved, a guy who had people who was counting on him.

00:26:34Guest:Was he from Oakland?

00:26:35Guest:No, he's from Hayward, actually.

00:26:37Guest:Oh, okay.

00:26:38Marc:It's a couple cities over.

00:26:39Marc:And when you finished that, being with that story for so long, the fear doesn't go away, right?

00:26:48Marc:No.

00:26:49Guest:No.

00:26:50Guest:Nah.

00:26:50Guest:Hell nah, man.

00:26:51Guest:Like, I mean, what usually follows me finishing a movie and putting it out is depression.

00:26:56Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:26:57Guest:And that must have been depression on a few levels.

00:26:59Guest:On a lot of levels.

00:27:00Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:01Guest:Because when we released it, that was when the George Zimmerman verdict came down.

00:27:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:27:05Guest:You know, like, so he walked basically, like, while we were in...

00:27:09Guest:in theaters.

00:27:10Guest:A part of me was very naive when I was in my mid-twenties making that movie, thinking, hey, man, this will maybe make a difference.

00:27:19Guest:And it was very clear that to me at the time, I was like, yeah, probably not.

00:27:28Marc:I mean, the powerlessness of it

00:27:31Marc:It almost seems, and now with this government, anybody who thinks differently, who believes in tolerance and empathy, has all of a sudden been othered as well.

00:27:49Marc:So there's a sort of a trauma vibration happening now, but the black community is known forever.

00:27:57Marc:Yeah.

00:27:57Marc:Since they've been here.

00:27:58Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:27:59Marc:So, but the powerlessness, it seems to me that what you land on, you know, even with sinners to some degree, is that the only power you have is community.

00:28:08Marc:Yes, sir.

00:28:09Marc:Right?

00:28:10Marc:Yes, sir.

00:28:10Marc:And what you have in that is you have, you know, extended family and people who understand the struggle, but also just want to live their fucking lives.

00:28:20Marc:Yep.

00:28:21Marc:Yep.

00:28:22Guest:And, you know, and... And the beauty, the epic beauty in that.

00:28:25Guest:Yeah.

00:28:25Guest:Yeah, the epic beauty in...

00:28:27Guest:seeing each other, having people who see you understand your position in society or the superhuman pressures that's on you.

00:28:37Guest:Yeah.

00:28:38Guest:But also simultaneously understand that you're just a person that wants to have a good time for a night or wants to dream or wants to spend time, wants to make a home to your kid.

00:28:47Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:28:48Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:48Guest:All of those things, I thought, you know, was...

00:28:52Guest:That was what I realized that I wanted to make movies about.

00:28:57Guest:When you started making movies, was that on your mind?

00:29:00Guest:That idea, I think, was imprinted on me just circumstantially.

00:29:06Guest:How my family gets down and how my neighborhood got down.

00:29:10Guest:What it was like to be from Oakland at the time.

00:29:12Guest:What did your old man do?

00:29:13Guest:My dad worked as a youth guidance counselor in Juvenile Hall.

00:29:18Guest:Essentially,

00:29:19Guest:Man, he hasn't had that job for a long time now, but it was essentially like a cross between a child care provider in a group home and a prison guard.

00:29:29Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:29:30Guest:It was where kids who got incarcerated would go.

00:29:33Guest:And this job of a youth guidance counselor was you kind of had to be

00:29:37Guest:The adult there that, you know, make sure the kid was good and kind of helped guide the kid into adulthood in the time that they're there.

00:29:45Guest:But you also have to, you know what I'm saying, like make sure that they not leaving this place, escaping.

00:29:50Guest:Have to make sure they're not harming themselves or the other young people that's incarcerated with them.

00:29:55Guest:That was his job.

00:29:55Marc:Did he see the movie?

00:29:56Marc:Did he see all the movies?

00:29:57Marc:My dad, yeah.

00:29:58Marc:He watched all my movies, yeah.

00:29:59Marc:And when he, like there must be something after watching Fruitvale that...

00:30:04Marc:That, again, that powerlessness that, you know, no matter what he does or how good he does it.

00:30:10Guest:Yeah.

00:30:10Marc:And no matter how good these, you know, these kids are when they leave or what they try to do.

00:30:14Guest:Yeah.

00:30:14Guest:It's not safe.

00:30:15Guest:Yeah.

00:30:16Guest:In reality, you know, because I had a chance to work with my dad.

00:30:18Guest:Yeah.

00:30:19Guest:For like, for like, for like, I want to say for like maybe five years.

00:30:24Guest:Yeah.

00:30:25Guest:I'll work with my dad part time.

00:30:27Guest:And I would see people at the job who, you know, because the job, you were like a blend of these two things.

00:30:32Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:30:33Guest:I would see people that lean more towards, like, treat the job like they were a prison guard.

00:30:38Guest:Disciplinary.

00:30:38Guest:Yeah, like, I mean, this is like, you know, this is like law enforcement adjacent.

00:30:43Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:30:44Guest:And they would kind of bleed over into...

00:30:47Guest:You know, like them being cops.

00:30:49Guest:And then you had people who had the same job, who was way more on the childcare provider side.

00:30:53Guest:Like a social worker.

00:30:53Guest:Yeah, like, you know, I really like trying to raise the kids.

00:30:56Guest:My pop was maybe too far that way.

00:30:59Guest:You know what I mean?

00:31:01Guest:Never really got promoted.

00:31:02Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:31:03Guest:Cared too much.

00:31:04Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:31:06Guest:And, you know, like I tried to be like my dad while I was there.

00:31:09Guest:it was a really tough job to have, bro.

00:31:11Guest:And my dad lost a lot of kids, man.

00:31:15Guest:Like so many of the kids my dad was close with would get released and get murdered.

00:31:20Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:31:20Guest:Or get released and go to prison for a long time.

00:31:24Guest:You know what I mean?

00:31:25Guest:And even before I knew what my dad did,

00:31:28Guest:we were walking around in the Bay Area in the 90s, and it would be, you know, grown men who would run up to my father and hug him, sometimes break down crying.

00:31:37Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:31:38Guest:And I would realize later that, yeah, these were guys that my dad had, you know what I mean, at a place where, you know, not everybody looked after him.

00:31:45Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:31:46Guest:Right, could have gone either way.

00:31:48Guest:Yeah.

00:31:48Guest:And they are all right.

00:31:49Guest:Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:31:50Guest:And grateful.

00:31:51Guest:For sure.

00:31:51Guest:Yeah, my papa, his career maybe wasn't the greatest at that place, though.

00:31:55Guest:Yeah.

00:31:55Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:31:56Guest:For all his reasons.

00:31:56Guest:But he looked out for the kids.

00:31:58Guest:But that's the impact.

00:32:00Marc:You can't change someone's life.

00:32:01Marc:Yeah.

00:32:02Marc:So how did you get into the movie making?

00:32:05Marc:So you were doing that when you were, was that your first job with your old man?

00:32:09Guest:Nah.

00:32:09Guest:Nah, hell nah.

00:32:10Guest:Nah, nah.

00:32:11Guest:I didn't work there until I was 21.

00:32:13Guest:Oh.

00:32:13Guest:I've been working probably since I was like 13.

00:32:15Guest:Yeah.

00:32:15Guest:Maybe younger, bro.

00:32:16Guest:Like my first job was, my first job was, I did gardening with my uncle.

00:32:21Guest:He had a landscaping company.

00:32:23Guest:So I was working with him when I was like eighth grade, ninth grade.

00:32:26Guest:That's your dad's brother?

00:32:27Guest:No, he's my dad's cousin.

00:32:28Guest:Oh, okay, yeah.

00:32:29Guest:Technically my cousin.

00:32:30Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:30Guest:He's older, so we call him my uncle.

00:32:32Guest:So you're running around with the mowers and stuff?

00:32:34Guest:Running around with the mowers, bro.

00:32:35Guest:Yeah, it was crazy.

00:32:36Guest:It was crazy.

00:32:38Guest:My uncle is like...

00:32:39Guest:My uncle is like, you ever watch Breaking Bad?

00:32:42Guest:Yeah.

00:32:42Guest:My uncle is like Gus Fring.

00:32:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:32:44Guest:Breaking Bad.

00:32:44Guest:Like, looks like Giancarlo, you know, like the whole get down.

00:32:48Guest:And he also owned a couple KFCs.

00:32:53Guest:Oh, really?

00:32:54Guest:Yeah, like him and his wife owned KFCs.

00:32:57Guest:Yeah.

00:32:57Guest:So they owned a KFC in Emeryville.

00:33:00Guest:So as soon as I turned 16, I could work there.

00:33:03Guest:You're out of the mowers?

00:33:04Guest:Yeah, I was out of the mowers.

00:33:05Guest:Into the grease?

00:33:06Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:33:07Guest:Working for Harmon's Corporation.

00:33:10Guest:And then I worked in a couple group homes as a child care provider.

00:33:15Guest:You know, and then when I hit 21, I worked with my pop for a little bit.

00:33:21Marc:So the group poem was like, now that experience is that, how much did that inform your perspective in terms of empathy?

00:33:30Guest:Big time, bro.

00:33:31Guest:Big time.

00:33:31Guest:I mean, like, incredibly, man.

00:33:33Guest:Like, you know, you see how much as human beings we kind of products of a coin flip.

00:33:42Guest:You know, like you'll have kids in there

00:33:45Guest:that had no saying in how their life went.

00:33:47Guest:You know what I mean?

00:33:48Guest:They're minors.

00:33:49Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:33:49Guest:Like maybe their parent made a decision or both parents made a decision or an adult neglected them or harmed them.

00:33:58Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:34:00Guest:Yeah.

00:34:00Guest:Um, and, and, and now the, the, the struggle of their life for the rest of their life from that point is to figure out if, if, if, if that action somebody else took against them is going to define them, you know what I'm saying?

00:34:12Marc:And how to fight back from within themselves and,

00:34:16Marc:Against taking the wrong path.

00:34:19Marc:Yeah.

00:34:19Marc:Getting stuck in the wrong situation.

00:34:21Marc:Yeah.

00:34:21Guest:Or harming themselves.

00:34:23Guest:You know what I mean?

00:34:23Guest:Like, you know, like believing that they not that they that they desire punishment.

00:34:30Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:34:31Guest:It's complicated.

00:34:32Guest:You know, 100 percent, bro.

00:34:33Guest:Yeah.

00:34:34Marc:Well, there's a coin flip in Fruitvale, too.

00:34:36Marc:Like, you know, I don't know.

00:34:39Marc:His poor mother, you know, that moment at the end where she's like, I told him to take the train.

00:34:44Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:46Marc:I mean, did you get a sense from talking to her that she lived through that?

00:34:49Marc:She told me that.

00:34:50Guest:Yeah, like, you know, the movie was, I mean, that movie came together in a real interesting way, like,

00:34:56Guest:I was at USC Film School, right?

00:34:59Guest:So after you work at KFC, how do you get to USC?

00:35:03Guest:I mean, it's the whole time I'm playing football.

00:35:06Guest:So I'm a football player.

00:35:07Guest:Yeah.

00:35:08Guest:And I'm taking school series.

00:35:12Guest:Small-haul goal is to get a football scholarship.

00:35:15Guest:My parents was, you know, it was middle class.

00:35:17Guest:Yeah.

00:35:18Guest:And you wanted to be what?

00:35:21Guest:I wanted to be a professional football player.

00:35:22Guest:Yeah.

00:35:23Guest:But I figured, you know, I knew that was, the older I got, the more I understood the odds of that happening.

00:35:29Guest:Sure.

00:35:30Guest:That's good.

00:35:30Guest:And I always took care of school, so I figured I'd be a doctor, you know what I'm saying, if I couldn't do that.

00:35:35Guest:That's a long haul.

00:35:36Guest:Yeah.

00:35:37Yeah.

00:35:38Guest:Yeah, yeah, but, you know, my parents put me in good schools, man.

00:35:43Guest:You know, private schools in Oakland.

00:35:47Guest:In Oakland and Berkeley.

00:35:49Guest:And, you know, they were always, like,

00:35:52Guest:They'll let it be known to me that it was a sacrifice for them to pay for school.

00:35:58Guest:Don't waste it.

00:35:59Guest:Exactly.

00:36:00Guest:I had to take the work serious.

00:36:03Guest:But my whole goal was to make it so that they didn't have to pay for me to go to college.

00:36:08Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:36:09Guest:So I went to get a football scholarship.

00:36:11Guest:So I got a football scholarship to a school called St.

00:36:13Guest:Mary's College.

00:36:15Guest:That's in Morocco.

00:36:16Guest:You know, they know them for their basketball program.

00:36:18Guest:But they had a football program back then, too.

00:36:20Guest:And I went, I was majoring in chemistry, and I was getting my ass kicked with the labs.

00:36:26Guest:Like the labs and football practice wasn't working out.

00:36:29Marc:I could never get chemistry, man.

00:36:30Marc:I just could never get the elements.

00:36:32Marc:It's like math.

00:36:33Marc:I couldn't do it.

00:36:34Marc:Man, you a comic, bro.

00:36:35Marc:You can do it.

00:36:36Marc:Yeah.

00:36:38Guest:But you can't charm your way through chemistry.

00:36:42Guest:You're not charming your way through a comedic career neither, but that shit is scientific.

00:36:46Guest:The job is charming.

00:36:49Guest:You got to have the charm to deliver the good.

00:36:52Guest:You can't get up there on stage and just be charming, bro.

00:36:55Guest:You watch a few comics.

00:36:58Guest:There's definitely a lot of that going around.

00:37:02Guest:Oh, man.

00:37:03Guest:Oh, man, that's funny.

00:37:04Guest:But, yeah.

00:37:04Marc:So, okay, so you're doing the chemistry, you're doing the football, and then all of a sudden what?

00:37:11Guest:So I'm playing, bro.

00:37:12Guest:Like, I'm playing.

00:37:13Guest:I'm 17 years old.

00:37:14Guest:I'm playing my freshman year, true freshman year.

00:37:16Guest:We getting killed, though.

00:37:18Guest:I think we got 1-11 or something.

00:37:20Guest:And then out of nowhere, they dropped the football program.

00:37:23Guest:The school makes a business decision.

00:37:25Guest:We're not going to do this no more.

00:37:26Guest:But does that mean you can't go there anymore?

00:37:28Guest:Well, what it meant was if I stayed there, they would have honored my scholarship, but there's no team.

00:37:35Guest:So I'll be going to school for free but not playing football.

00:37:40Guest:That's all right.

00:37:40Guest:Well, not then for me.

00:37:41Guest:At 17, I'm trying to go to the NFL.

00:37:44Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:37:45Guest:Or at least I want the option to try.

00:37:46Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:37:48Guest:Like in my whole, once again, identity.

00:37:50Guest:My whole identity was wrapped up in being a football player.

00:37:52Guest:Right.

00:37:52Guest:So I was like, well, I'm going to walk around on campus and do what?

00:37:54Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:37:57Guest:That guy used to play football.

00:37:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:37:59Guest:So I got a scholarship offer.

00:38:03Yeah.

00:38:03Guest:from a couple schools, one of them being Sacramento State.

00:38:05Guest:Took that because I wanted to stay close to home.

00:38:09Guest:And I had to switch my majors.

00:38:13Guest:It was clear to me that the chemistry wasn't gonna work out.

00:38:18Guest:So I went to finance.

00:38:20Guest:And while I was at St.

00:38:23Guest:Mary's College, it's a liberal arts school, they make you take English classes.

00:38:27Guest:I took a creative writing course

00:38:29Guest:my spring semester, the semester that they dropped the program.

00:38:34Guest:I'm going through all of that.

00:38:35Guest:And I was in a class with a teacher named Rosemary Graham.

00:38:39Guest:And she read something that I wrote and told me I should write screenplays.

00:38:43Guest:So that's how it happened.

00:38:44Guest:She sat me down and said, I think you should go to Hollywood and write screenplays.

00:38:48Guest:So I had that in the back of my head.

00:38:50Guest:Started thinking about it.

00:38:52Guest:Started writing on my own a little bit.

00:38:54Guest:And then I told my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now.

00:38:58Guest:Yeah.

00:38:59Guest:And then she bought me a screenwriting software.

00:39:01Guest:The Final P?

00:39:02Guest:Final Draft.

00:39:03Guest:Final Draft, yeah, yeah.

00:39:05Guest:And that was when I was kind of like... That was when that became like my... Did you love it?

00:39:11Guest:Loved it, bro.

00:39:12Guest:Yeah.

00:39:13Guest:Like I found something that...

00:39:16Guest:outside of football that I really loved.

00:39:19Guest:Because there's the immediacy of creating the moving story.

00:39:24Guest:It's beautiful.

00:39:25Guest:Still to this day, man, I don't open that app up until I'm ready to go.

00:39:31Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:39:32Guest:Because I got that much reverence for it.

00:39:34Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:35Guest:So you don't just fuck around with it.

00:39:37Marc:When you get the story in your head, you go.

00:39:39Marc:Yeah, I got to get an outline and all type of shit before I open that phone drive.

00:39:43Guest:So then you apply to film at USC?

00:39:45Guest:Yeah.

00:39:45Guest:Yeah, I started what happened was I went to Sacramento State.

00:39:48Guest:Yeah.

00:39:48Guest:New team, new environment.

00:39:50Guest:Yeah.

00:39:52Guest:And I immediately got there.

00:39:55Guest:And I think Rosemary might have helped me like find the people who would show me how to make movies at that school.

00:40:00Guest:It was a big school, kind of like a commuter school at the time.

00:40:03Guest:And like they got different departments.

00:40:04Guest:She really believed in you.

00:40:06Marc:Yeah, she did, man.

00:40:08Marc:Yeah.

00:40:08Marc:That's great.

00:40:09Marc:Because, like, it's not like you should write a short story.

00:40:12Marc:I mean, you must have written in a very specific way where it was so visceral to her.

00:40:17Marc:She's like, this guy, he's got a sense of it.

00:40:20Marc:Yeah, maybe.

00:40:21Marc:Of telling a story with those bursts of description.

00:40:25Marc:Yeah, maybe.

00:40:26Marc:Yeah.

00:40:26Guest:So she set you up with the film guys over there?

00:40:28Guest:Yeah, she helped me figure it out.

00:40:31Guest:And I went there, and they had a great professional name, Dr. Roberto Palmo.

00:40:35Guest:Uh-huh.

00:40:35Guest:Argentinian-American cat.

00:40:39Guest:I think he just retired.

00:40:40Guest:He was like film theory, critical studies.

00:40:44Guest:And then I took production classes with a dude named Stephen Bush who went to USC film school.

00:40:53Guest:He kind of ran the production department at Sac State like the one that he learned from.

00:40:59Guest:Oh, okay.

00:40:59Guest:So you got a sense of all sides of it.

00:41:02Guest:Now, are you watching movies?

00:41:03Guest:Man, what?

00:41:05Guest:Yes.

00:41:09Guest:I mean, that was learned cultural behavior.

00:41:13Guest:Sure.

00:41:13Marc:But when you get to college, like when you take the theory class.

00:41:18Marc:Big time, bro.

00:41:19Marc:And you're breaking them down.

00:41:20Marc:Breaking them down.

00:41:21Guest:Which movie was like, okay, I get it.

00:41:26Guest:Probably a movie called Within Our Gates.

00:41:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:41:28Guest:Yeah.

00:41:30Yeah.

00:41:30Guest:I mean, that one was... Whose film was that?

00:41:32Guest:It was Oscar Micheaux.

00:41:33Guest:Okay.

00:41:34Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:41:35Guest:We had to watch Birth of a Nation.

00:41:36Guest:Okay.

00:41:37Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:41:38Guest:Which was like a fucked up watch as a black person.

00:41:40Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:41:41Guest:Yeah, Griffith.

00:41:42Guest:Yeah, D.W.

00:41:42Guest:Griffith.

00:41:43Guest:Yeah.

00:41:43Guest:And then we watched Within Our Gates the next day.

00:41:46Guest:Yeah.

00:41:47Guest:So... I don't know that film.

00:41:49Guest:So, yeah, it's... Oscar Micheaux was...

00:41:54Guest:he was our first major notable filmmaker out of the African-American community.

00:41:59Guest:He doesn't have like a counterpart, like I can't name a white cultural counterpart for him.

00:42:05Guest:Because before Oscar Michaud, we didn't have it.

00:42:09Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:42:09Guest:I think I might have learned something about him at some point, but I never saw the movie.

00:42:13Guest:Yeah, he was a beautiful filmmaker.

00:42:15Guest:And kind of like the first filmmaker to crowdfund.

00:42:17Guest:You know, like when he would go around

00:42:20Guest:To folks in the African-American community that had money and kind of pieced together his budget, you know, and kind of recognize the value of having telling your own stories, especially in a time like I think it was made in and it was made immediately after Birth of a Nation.

00:42:35Guest:Yeah.

00:42:36Guest:Yeah.

00:42:36Guest:A lot of a lot of his movies have been lost.

00:42:39Guest:And he had a whole he had a whole era of contemporaries.

00:42:41Guest:It's a beautiful story.

00:42:43Guest:nonfiction series called Hollywood in Black that Justin Simeon did.

00:42:47Guest:It talks about Oscar Michonne and some of his contemporaries.

00:42:50Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:42:51Guest:You know, and folks that came after him.

00:42:54Guest:But yeah, that experience was major.

00:42:56Guest:But we also watched a film called Lone Star.

00:42:58Guest:We watched...

00:42:59Guest:The John Sayles movie?

00:43:00Guest:Yeah, we watched Zoot Suit.

00:43:02Guest:I remember them experiencing like the back of my hand.

00:43:05Marc:And also independent, like Sayles independent, making his own movies.

00:43:10Marc:It sounds like Oscar was, you saw the possibility, even historically, to move within the community and from the community.

00:43:18Marc:Yes, sir.

00:43:19Marc:Yes, sir.

00:43:19Marc:And then like, you know, in terms of your chops as a director, like when you start doing shorts and stuff, who, you know, who, who are your influences?

00:43:27Marc:Cause you got, you know, it's a rare thing where people got a vibe with a camera.

00:43:31Marc:You can either be, you can, you can be efficient, but to have, you know, the control that allows you to also express yourself, you know, with the camera, as opposed to just with the story, that's something different.

00:43:45Guest:Yeah.

00:43:46Guest:Yeah.

00:43:46Guest:You work with the same DP?

00:43:48Guest:Yeah.

00:43:48Guest:No, no, I've worked with several.

00:43:49Guest:Like, like, um, I think I've worked with three professionally, but my last two movies have been with, with Autumn Archipod.

00:43:56Marc:Uh-huh.

00:43:57Marc:Um.

00:43:57Marc:But like, it seems like with Hooper Vale, you were like, you know, you knew the effect you wanted was going to come from how you move that camera.

00:44:05Guest:Yeah, no, for sure.

00:44:05Guest:I mean, it comes from everything.

00:44:06Guest:Yeah.

00:44:07Guest:But the camera is the, is the main, is the main vehicle.

00:44:10Guest:You know what I mean?

00:44:11Guest:Like, like, um,

00:44:12Guest:It's essentially like the canvas to the painter.

00:44:17Guest:What I liked about filmmaking, the itch that it scratches, what I liked about writing was that it was different from football in that it was just me.

00:44:26Guest:You know what I mean?

00:44:27Guest:Football is almost like it almost moves beyond being a team sport.

00:44:32Guest:It's almost like paramilitary.

00:44:33Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:44:35Guest:And I play wide receiver.

00:44:38Guest:For me to even have a chance to catch a pass,

00:44:41Guest:So many things have to go right.

00:44:42Guest:Yeah, you know, you know that they are that are completely outside of my control.

00:44:45Guest:Yeah, they got to do it with my teammates and they individual battles in the play call coming from the coach and not getting hit and not getting hit.

00:44:52Guest:Yeah.

00:44:53Guest:So, you know, you know, so so many things have to go right for me to even have the opportunity to touch the ball.

00:44:58Guest:And, you know, and you got to be so in it that you can't second guess it.

00:45:00Guest:A hundred percent.

00:45:01Guest:I got and I got to be right once it gets to me.

00:45:03Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:04Guest:And

00:45:04Guest:It could be a couple hundred snaps in a game.

00:45:06Guest:And if a wide receiver has 15 catches, that's like a career day.

00:45:12Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:14Guest:A good day is like five or six touches.

00:45:16Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:19Guest:And that's a lot of football for five or six touches.

00:45:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:22Guest:Yeah.

00:45:23Guest:your number got to get called like 10 times.

00:45:27Guest:And don't let the guy guard you be good.

00:45:28Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:31Guest:Too many obstacles.

00:45:32Guest:Exactly.

00:45:32Guest:But when I had that final drive, it was just like, oh shit, it's just me.

00:45:36Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:37Guest:I got the choices.

00:45:37Guest:I got to show up.

00:45:38Guest:But also, if this shit sucks, it's on me.

00:45:41Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:42Guest:But then...

00:45:44Guest:you know, I am a community guy.

00:45:45Guest:I do like the team aspect.

00:45:48Guest:You know what I mean?

00:45:48Guest:I do like the... Once you get on set.

00:45:50Guest:Yeah, because it's nice on a day where, like, maybe you injured.

00:45:53Guest:Yeah.

00:45:53Guest:You know, but you can go out there and help a little bit and your team still wins and you contribute it.

00:45:57Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:45:58Guest:It's not on you every day.

00:45:59Guest:Yeah.

00:46:00Guest:or if you have a great teammate.

00:46:03Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:46:04Guest:And you get to be there and watch somebody great be great, and you roll along with them.

00:46:09Guest:It's a fully collaborative effort.

00:46:12Guest:Or those moments where everybody is on the same page.

00:46:15Guest:Everything goes right, and you didn't even think about it.

00:46:18Guest:Everybody's in rhythm.

00:46:20Guest:The guy walks in the end zone without even being touched.

00:46:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:46:23Guest:It's like, oh, shit.

00:46:24Guest:So that being on set

00:46:26Guest:with a production team scratched that itch.

00:46:30Guest:So it was like I got the itch scratched I didn't even know I had.

00:46:34Guest:And then I got the itch scratched that I knew.

00:46:36Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:46:39Guest:So it was a big thing for me to learn what everybody's job was, how everybody's job worked so I could respect them and communicate with them.

00:46:47Guest:And that camera, the job of the cinematographer,

00:46:51Guest:You know, it's a very important job.

00:46:54Guest:And it's also a thing, like, when you learn, if you say, hey, I want to make movies, you usually end up picking up a camera soon and learning, like, really quickly that you better know what you're doing with that thing.

00:47:02Guest:Your movies are going to suck.

00:47:04Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:47:07Guest:And that, you know, that for me was super important.

00:47:10Guest:I learned that in film school and...

00:47:12Marc:At USC.

00:47:13Marc:Yeah.

00:47:13Marc:So you're shooting on your own so you could at least know what you want from the DP.

00:47:19Marc:Exactly.

00:47:19Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:47:20Marc:Exactly.

00:47:20Marc:And that's an ongoing conversation, right?

00:47:23Marc:You know, with a DP on set.

00:47:24Guest:Oh, yeah, man.

00:47:25Guest:I was on the phone with her today.

00:47:27Guest:I was on the phone with Autumn today.

00:47:27Guest:I had to ask her something for press.

00:47:30Guest:Because we shot film, and we shot two very unique formats.

00:47:35Guest:And Sinners?

00:47:36Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:47:36Guest:It's film?

00:47:37Guest:We shot on film, yeah.

00:47:38Marc:Oh, my God.

00:47:38Marc:We shot on 70 millimeter.

00:47:40Marc:Well, how'd you get two of, you know, he's two characters.

00:47:47Marc:Yeah, Mike.

00:47:48Marc:Yeah.

00:47:49Marc:I mean, how do you get?

00:47:53Guest:What'd you think of it, bro?

00:47:54Guest:Did you enjoy it?

00:47:55Marc:Well, it's funny.

00:47:56Marc:Because I was driving back with my girlfriend, and I was talking about what a great actor that guy is, what a movie star he is.

00:48:03Marc:And she was like, yeah, he's so handsome.

00:48:05Marc:I'm like, yeah, and you got two of them.

00:48:10Guest:Oh, man.

00:48:12Guest:Man, it's funny, bro.

00:48:13Guest:I was just looking at these standees that they made in theater, and there's two of them, and then people can go in and take a picture.

00:48:22Guest:And I'm like, oh, man, I wonder what kind of pictures finna come out of this.

00:48:26Guest:Kind of laughing to myself, man.

00:48:27Marc:But you shoot that on film, but you still had to use the technology to make that seamless, right?

00:48:31Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:48:32Guest:I had a great visual effects team.

00:48:34Guest:I had a guy named Michael Rolla, who was my visual effects supervisor.

00:48:39Guest:He's born in Germany, grew up out there.

00:48:42Guest:He lives here now.

00:48:44Guest:And another guy named James Alexander, who's my visual effects producer.

00:48:48Guest:You know, we did a lot of...

00:48:50Guest:a lot of research and planning, and we're able to achieve some cool techniques.

00:48:54Marc:Yeah, it was a great effect.

00:48:55Marc:Yeah.

00:48:56Marc:Before we get to that, though, like, well, you kind of put Michael Jordan on the map, right?

00:49:02Marc:Well, Mike B?

00:49:03Marc:Yeah.

00:49:04Guest:I mean...

00:49:06Guest:I knew who Mike was when I was coming out of film school.

00:49:10Guest:I was looking for somebody to play Oscar Grant.

00:49:14Guest:And I knew him from his work, from his television career and his film career.

00:49:18Guest:He did a film called Chronicle and a film called Red Tails.

00:49:22Guest:They both kind of came out in theaters at the same time.

00:49:24Guest:He was not the lead of all his movies.

00:49:26Guest:Right.

00:49:26Guest:But he popped enough.

00:49:28Guest:You know what I mean?

00:49:30Guest:And then before that, he was in a lot of really great television shows.

00:49:33Guest:He was in The Wire as a kid.

00:49:35Guest:That's right.

00:49:36Guest:And he was in a couple of Jason Kalem shows.

00:49:38Guest:He was in Parenthood and Friday Night Lights.

00:49:43Guest:So people knew him.

00:49:45Guest:He was bubbling.

00:49:47Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:49:49Guest:What I did do was come to him

00:49:52Marc:with what ended up being his first chance to lead a movie yeah you know i mean to be to be the lead the leading man yeah i mean leading person i should say sure and where we started with this before we move on the so you talked to uh oscar's mother and we were talking about that coin flip and about the weight of that did you find that that that was something she couldn't let go of

00:50:16Guest:I mean, she mentioned it to me.

00:50:18Guest:Yeah.

00:50:18Guest:You know, like, so it's clear.

00:50:19Guest:That's why you put it in there.

00:50:21Guest:And being a parent now.

00:50:22Guest:Yeah.

00:50:23Guest:You know, like, I've been in situations where my kids, like, bump their heads or twisted their ankle.

00:50:29Guest:And my mind is, like, racking my brain up.

00:50:32Guest:Hey, what could you have done better?

00:50:34Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:34Guest:Why'd you let them play on that?

00:50:35Guest:You should have been better.

00:50:36Guest:You know what I mean?

00:50:38Guest:So brutal.

00:50:38Guest:And, you know, so for that situation.

00:50:41Guest:Oh, my God.

00:50:41Guest:Like, I know.

00:50:42Guest:Like, you know, she brought that up.

00:50:43Guest:She told me for a reason.

00:50:43Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:50:44Guest:You know, like, like, um,

00:50:45Marc:It's a powerful moment in the movie.

00:50:47Marc:Yeah.

00:50:48Marc:Because, you know, you've already seen the arc of what happened.

00:50:51Marc:And she's, you know, she's got to live with that.

00:50:54Guest:And it came from her thinking, you know, telling her to do what she thought would be safer.

00:50:59Guest:Yeah.

00:51:00Guest:Right.

00:51:00Guest:Of course.

00:51:00Guest:Yeah.

00:51:00Guest:Because her fear was him getting arrested.

00:51:02Guest:Yeah.

00:51:04Guest:He was on paperwork.

00:51:05Guest:So, like, you get in the car, one of your homies got a gun on him or one of your homies is drinking.

00:51:09Guest:Yeah.

00:51:09Guest:You know, you go in a big jail.

00:51:10Guest:You go in a prison.

00:51:11Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:51:12Guest:They're going to violate your parole.

00:51:13Guest:So for her, it was like, man, you know, let's alleviate that.

00:51:16Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:51:16Guest:You know, take public transportation.

00:51:18Marc:You know what I'm saying?

00:51:18Marc:It's so heavy.

00:51:19Marc:Yeah.

00:51:20Marc:So I didn't realize that Creed was, you know, your idea entirely in terms of it.

00:51:27Marc:That you found that story within the Rocky franchise.

00:51:30Marc:Yeah.

00:51:31Marc:And you had a little juice from Fruitvale.

00:51:34Guest:I mean, what's crazy is I pitched Sly before I made Fruitvale.

00:51:38Guest:Yeah.

00:51:39Guest:I pitched him while we were a couple weeks out from production.

00:51:43Guest:We might have been like one week out.

00:51:45Guest:Yeah.

00:51:45Guest:And I flew down to L.A.

00:51:47Guest:and pitched him and Kevin King and his agent at the time, the dude named Adam Bennett.

00:51:53Guest:I was pitching them, you know, while I was, you know, while I was getting ready to make Fruitville.

00:51:59Guest:Yeah.

00:52:00Guest:And then Stallone, you know, rightfully so, you know, he was like, you know, he heard me out and was, you know, signed a couple autographs for me and sent me on my way.

00:52:08Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:52:09Guest:You know?

00:52:10Yeah.

00:52:10Guest:But, you know, after we met Fruville, it was great that, you know, Vinny kept pushing, and Stallone came around and met with me again and was open to working with me.

00:52:22Marc:And Irwin Winkler, too?

00:52:23Marc:Irwin Winkler, yep.

00:52:25Marc:I had to go see Irwin in New York.

00:52:26Marc:I talked to that guy.

00:52:28Marc:Yeah, you did?

00:52:29Marc:How'd you find him?

00:52:30Marc:Well, you know, it's quite a career.

00:52:32Marc:Yeah.

00:52:32Marc:I mean, it seems like those guys—

00:52:35Marc:You know, he's made some good movies, but when it comes to business, you know, he holds a line.

00:52:41Marc:I knew there was some tension for a while with some people.

00:52:44Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:45Marc:But he was good to work with?

00:52:47Marc:Yeah, Irwin was cool with me.

00:52:48Marc:Yeah.

00:52:48Guest:Yeah, like both of them were cool with me.

00:52:50Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:52:51Marc:And when you told Jordan that you wanted him to do that, was he like, hell yeah?

00:52:54Guest:Yeah, he was.

00:52:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:56Guest:I mean, it's tough, man, because, like, I mean, the reality is, like, I'm stepping in.

00:53:00Guest:When it comes to Irwin and...

00:53:02Guest:Like I'm stepping into a, you know, like a 40-year-old relationship.

00:53:06Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:53:07Guest:And, you know, it was my job to be respectful to everybody and stand up, you know, and to perform for them.

00:53:16Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:53:16Guest:I didn't want to let anybody down.

00:53:18Guest:I want to make a fight.

00:53:19Guest:They made a bad decision betting on me.

00:53:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:53:21Guest:Big movie.

00:53:22Guest:Yeah, big movie.

00:53:23Marc:And then like Black Panther, I mean, that movie changed the world.

00:53:26Yeah.

00:53:28Guest:It did.

00:53:29Guest:But, I mean, certainly a lot of people went to go see it.

00:53:35Guest:And, yeah, I'm incredibly proud of that movie.

00:53:38Guest:I'm proud of all of them, bro, thankfully.

00:53:41Marc:Well, like you said, when you go into each film, you have something in your mind about it.

00:53:44Marc:What was it with Creed?

00:53:47Guest:And with Creed, the question was...

00:53:50Guest:It was very much wrapped up in my relationship with my father.

00:53:54Guest:Yeah.

00:53:55Guest:Because his illness was the first time I saw him truly vulnerable.

00:54:00Guest:Right.

00:54:01Guest:And I had to reckon with the idea that the strongest man that I know could possibly die.

00:54:07Guest:Yeah.

00:54:07Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:54:08Guest:Yeah.

00:54:09Guest:And I was watching him lose his physical strength.

00:54:11Guest:Yeah.

00:54:11Guest:the struggles he was having with that.

00:54:13Guest:You know, and that concept of, it's a line in the movie, but that concept of time taking everybody out.

00:54:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:54:22Guest:Like whatever you, you know, time will make the strongest person weak.

00:54:27Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:54:28Guest:And like, is that person, what is their value when they in that kind of state?

00:54:32Guest:Oh, it's rough.

00:54:33Guest:You know, but Rocky was my dad's like movie hero.

00:54:36Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:54:38Guest:So like that idea for me was to, I mean, let me make a movie where Rocky's got to overcome something.

00:54:44Guest:I think my dad would enjoy that right now.

00:54:48Guest:That's how it started.

00:54:51Guest:I want my dad to watch this movie so he feels better.

00:54:53Guest:Exactly.

00:54:54Guest:It's usually that simple for me, bro.

00:54:57Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:54:59Guest:But then it gets complex.

00:55:00Guest:Sure.

00:55:00Guest:But that was the emotional heart of it.

00:55:03Guest:Yes, sir.

00:55:03Guest:And what about Black Panther?

00:55:05Guest:How'd that come to you?

00:55:06Guest:Yeah, for that one, man.

00:55:08Guest:So that was a different ballgame.

00:55:12Guest:That was an open assignment, essentially.

00:55:17Guest:MCU had been gone for a little while.

00:55:20Guest:I think that was the 18th movie they made.

00:55:25Guest:Did you have to pitch it?

00:55:28Guest:I didn't have to pitch it so much as like... I mean, kind of like...

00:55:33Guest:The thing was, was like, everybody in town knew they were making it, and they were talking to one of my friends about doing it.

00:55:40Guest:As a writer?

00:55:42Guest:As a director.

00:55:44Guest:Her name's Ava Duvernay, incredible filmmaker, incredible friend.

00:55:48Guest:We met, and she instantly became a big sister for me in the industry.

00:55:54Guest:Look out for me and

00:55:57Guest:you know, advised me in situations and, you know, and she let me know she was being considered for this job, you know what I'm saying?

00:56:05Guest:And, you know, they mutually, you know, came to this decision that they weren't going to do it together.

00:56:11Guest:But then she was like, hey, why don't you do it?

00:56:13Guest:You know what I mean?

00:56:14Guest:Like she asked me and I was like, oh, I was like, you know, on the spot, I was like, I don't know if I could do that.

00:56:17Guest:You know, like I was finishing up.

00:56:20Guest:Creed, I didn't think they would ever call me.

00:56:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:56:22Guest:Yeah, but it's also like a big responsibility.

00:56:25Guest:I guess they all are, but Jesus, Marvel.

00:56:28Guest:It's expensive.

00:56:30Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:56:30Guest:A big, expensive movie, and you don't want to fuck it up.

00:56:34Guest:You don't want to do it wrong.

00:56:36Guest:And there was also a lot of anxiety around making a movie at a place that was that powerful.

00:56:43Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:56:45Guest:What do you mean?

00:56:47Guest:I mean, like, they...

00:56:49Guest:They got a way of doing things.

00:56:50Guest:Yeah, okay.

00:56:52Guest:There's a system.

00:56:53Guest:They're churning out that blockbuster.

00:56:56Guest:From the outside looking in, it seemed like a narrative could be built that directors might be disposable.

00:57:07Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:57:08Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:57:09Guest:I get you.

00:57:10Guest:I had a chance to meet with them, and I found it didn't fit the narrative that I was outside.

00:57:17Guest:They felt like they would be people who I could work with.

00:57:22Marc:But also, you had to bring a narrative that hadn't been done.

00:57:26Guest:I mean, it's interesting because...

00:57:31Guest:I mean, it's yes and no, right?

00:57:32Guest:Like the other thing that made Marvel so successful was that they were working with, they had at their disposal, you know, just like decades of intellectual property.

00:57:42Guest:Yeah.

00:57:43Guest:You know what I mean?

00:57:43Guest:Like decades of a built audience and awareness of who these characters are.

00:57:48Guest:Right.

00:57:48Guest:Maybe not in the cinematic space, but in the narrative space.

00:57:52Guest:You know what I mean?

00:57:52Guest:Like people- With the comics.

00:57:54Guest:Yeah, people know who Iron Man is and what happens to him and what his story is and who he fights.

00:57:58Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:58:00Guest:And that's such a,

00:58:01Guest:I mean, we've come to learn in the last 10, 15 years since 2008, I would say, which was like the big kind of watershed year of comic book movies.

00:58:17Guest:And it's kind of like the realization that these things were going to be a force.

00:58:21Guest:You know, you have a goldmine at their disposal of stories and stories.

00:58:25Guest:creative contributions from really smart people.

00:58:28Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:58:30Guest:And you can draw from all that.

00:58:31Guest:You can draw from all of that.

00:58:33Guest:That was the thing that was so interesting about when I agreed to start considering making a movie with them.

00:58:44Guest:I said, hey, let me get every Black Panther comic that was ever written.

00:58:47Guest:And it was like, yeah, we'll be right with you.

00:58:49Guest:And then boom.

00:58:50Guest:You know what I mean?

00:58:51Guest:It's just like mountains of, you know?

00:58:54Guest:Like they literally, they literally was like, yeah, no problem.

00:58:56Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:58:57Guest:How many was that?

00:58:57Guest:Oh, man, it was a bit, because I don't like reading things digitally.

00:59:00Guest:Yeah.

00:59:01Guest:Because they first were going to send it to me as a PDF.

00:59:03Guest:Yeah.

00:59:03Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:59:04Guest:And I ended up checking my email or some shit, like on a tablet or whatever.

00:59:08Guest:So I'm like, give me the physical thing so I can feel the weight of it, so I can read it like I would have read a comic book when I was a kid.

00:59:13Guest:Yeah.

00:59:14Guest:No problem.

00:59:16Guest:Boom, big-ass binder.

00:59:18Guest:You know, like from 1960s to yesterday.

00:59:22Guest:You know what I mean?

00:59:24Guest:And seeing who was writing what and how they drew the pictures and what appearance he was and who he interacted with.

00:59:31Guest:So you're not...

00:59:33Guest:It wasn't Sinners.

00:59:35Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:59:36Guest:Where I'm starting from the complete blank page.

00:59:38Guest:Man, who are these people?

00:59:39Guest:What are their names?

00:59:40Guest:It was none of that.

00:59:41Guest:It was like, do you want this character or that character?

00:59:43Marc:Yeah, this was an established mythology.

00:59:45Marc:100%, bro.

00:59:45Marc:Whereas Sinners is kind of a real mythology.

00:59:49Marc:It's a folk mythology.

00:59:50Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:59:52Guest:Exactly.

00:59:53Guest:Yeah, 100%, bro.

00:59:54Guest:And with that built-in knowledge and fan base comes expectations.

01:00:00Guest:Sure.

01:00:00Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:00:00Guest:And then what's crazy is

01:00:03Guest:in the success of that company, you know what I'm saying?

01:00:06Guest:Yeah.

01:00:06Guest:Now you got expectations of the comics, and now you got expectations of the movies.

01:00:10Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:00:11Guest:So it's like exponential expectations.

01:00:14Marc:But you knew you were making a different movie.

01:00:17Guest:Yeah.

01:00:17Marc:Because, like, you know, all those expectations are there, but you're making a black movie.

01:00:21Guest:Yeah, 100%.

01:00:22Marc:So, you know, there's good will in an audience that hasn't even been tapped for that other shit.

01:00:29Guest:That's correct.

01:00:30Guest:Yeah.

01:00:30Guest:And that's kind of what happened, I think.

01:00:31Guest:Yeah.

01:00:32Guest:You know, like, which was, you know, good on them, bro.

01:00:35Guest:Like, for being open to it.

01:00:37Guest:Yeah.

01:00:39Guest:And honestly, like, same thing with Erwin and Slaw.

01:00:42Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:00:42Guest:Being open to a take that might open it up to, like, untapped folks.

01:00:48Guest:Like, you know what I mean?

01:00:50Guest:And that's international.

01:00:51Guest:Yeah.

01:00:51Guest:Yes, sir.

01:00:52Guest:And then it becomes sort of, again, there's a community incentive.

01:00:56Guest:Yes, sir.

01:00:57Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:57Guest:Absolutely.

01:00:58Guest:Absolutely.

01:00:58Guest:You're not wrong, bro.

01:00:59Guest:Like, you know what I'm saying?

01:01:00Guest:That's also what happened.

01:01:01Guest:Like, you know, and that's stuff that I can't take responsibility for as a filmmaker when people say, hey, man, we're going to sight unseen on a movie.

01:01:09Guest:Hey, we're going to buy a theater for a bunch of kids to come see this.

01:01:12Guest:Yeah.

01:01:12Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:01:13Guest:Like, I ain't seen the trailer maybe.

01:01:14Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:01:15Marc:But what's interesting is because, you know, it is a mythical space.

01:01:19Marc:You know, this is a superhero.

01:01:21Guest:Yeah.

01:01:21Marc:But because of the nature of that it is essentially a black film, that no matter what the experience of black people globally, in terms of their history, this is something for them.

01:01:36Marc:100%.

01:01:37Marc:And I would imagine that, you know, that was probably at least 80% a new audience.

01:01:44Guest:I mean, I don't know the numbers, man.

01:01:46Guest:Yeah, but I'm just saying.

01:01:47Guest:But yeah, like I think...

01:01:49Guest:But it's just so interesting, bro, because I just left, like I say, bro, I just left lunch with director Bong.

01:01:55Guest:Yeah.

01:01:55Guest:We were talking in, like, The Odyssey.

01:01:58Guest:Yeah.

01:02:00Guest:Howlin' Wolf.

01:02:01Guest:Yeah.

01:02:02Guest:You know, Smokestack Lightning.

01:02:03Guest:Yeah.

01:02:03Guest:Who's that for?

01:02:04Guest:Yeah.

01:02:05Yeah.

01:02:05Guest:Who's that for?

01:02:06Guest:It's a good question with the blues.

01:02:08Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:02:09Guest:But the thing is... Sadly, it's like 70 to 80-year-old white guys.

01:02:12Guest:Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, it's for who it's for.

01:02:16Guest:Sure.

01:02:16Guest:But it's also for everybody.

01:02:18Guest:That's right.

01:02:18Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:02:21Guest:And that for me was what I realized.

01:02:23Guest:Look, my daddy will watch Rocky II.

01:02:28Guest:and root for Rocky.

01:02:29Guest:Yeah.

01:02:30Guest:My daddy, like a black man from Oakland, California.

01:02:32Guest:Sure.

01:02:33Guest:Right?

01:02:33Guest:Yeah.

01:02:34Guest:Something was happening in the magic of this movie.

01:02:36Guest:Yeah.

01:02:36Guest:That he's rooting for the Italian dude.

01:02:40Guest:Yeah.

01:02:40Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:02:41Guest:Like a boxing movie.

01:02:42Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:02:43Guest:But...

01:02:45Guest:I don't know the history of Rocky.

01:02:46Guest:Yeah.

01:02:47Guest:And I'm a kid.

01:02:48Guest:Yeah.

01:02:48Guest:And I'm like, Pop, why are you rooting for him?

01:02:49Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:02:51Guest:This guy looks like you.

01:02:52Guest:You know what I mean?

01:02:53Guest:Like, you know, like, why are you?

01:02:54Guest:He's like, oh, man, Apollo's the villain.

01:02:56Guest:Yeah.

01:02:56Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:02:57Guest:He's a heel.

01:02:58Guest:And I'm like, I'm like, is he?

01:03:00Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:03:01Guest:Like, you know, what is he doing?

01:03:02Guest:That's, you know.

01:03:04Guest:And I watched the movie, you know what I'm saying?

01:03:07Guest:And I'm realizing, okay, yeah, he's, you know, the camera is with Rocky.

01:03:13Guest:Right.

01:03:13Marc:You know what I'm saying?

01:03:14Marc:Your dad grew up in a history of movies.

01:03:16Marc:100%.

01:03:16Marc:He understood the language.

01:03:18Guest:Sure.

01:03:18Guest:Yeah, he understood the language.

01:03:20Guest:And when Apollo Creed is calling Rocky out and saying all these mean things about him, it's like, you're not even thinking about who writing him.

01:03:25Guest:black.

01:03:26Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:03:27Guest:It's like, man, you gotta go get this dude.

01:03:28Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:03:29Marc:Well, yeah, but when you open it up and you do Black Panther with the mythological universe that, you know, the good guys and the bad guys, everybody's black.

01:03:35Marc:Yeah.

01:03:39Guest:A hundred percent.

01:03:40Guest:Yeah, a hundred percent, bro.

01:03:43Guest:So in that sense, it makes sense on a community level.

01:03:48Guest:A hundred percent, bro.

01:03:49Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:50Guest:No, totally, man.

01:03:51Guest:Totally.

01:03:51Guest:Totally, because that's also what I grew up with.

01:03:54Guest:Yeah.

01:03:55Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:03:56Guest:That's also what I grew up with, bro.

01:03:57Marc:And the movie's for everybody, obviously.

01:03:59Marc:But the sort of, you know, the world of it was completely unique to a lot of people.

01:04:05Marc:Yeah.

01:04:06Marc:You know, I think both, you know, all kinds of audiences.

01:04:09Marc:For the black community, they're like, we've never seen this shit before.

01:04:13Marc:And then the same thing for the white kids.

01:04:14Marc:They're like, we've never seen this shit before.

01:04:18Marc:It was a perfect storm.

01:04:21Guest:Oh, man.

01:04:22Guest:No one had ever seen that shit before.

01:04:29Guest:Oh, shit.

01:04:31Guest:So, were you scared?

01:04:32Guest:Terrified.

01:04:33Guest:Yeah.

01:04:33Guest:Yeah, bro.

01:04:34Guest:I...

01:04:36Guest:Yeah, I had a nervous breakdown making that movie, man.

01:04:40Guest:Maybe several.

01:04:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:41Guest:Did you keep it to yourself?

01:04:44Guest:My wife knew.

01:04:44Guest:Hell yeah.

01:04:45Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:47Guest:Coming home, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?

01:04:49Guest:My little brother was my assistant.

01:04:51Guest:He knew.

01:04:51Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:52Guest:So, yeah, they knew.

01:04:54Guest:They held me up, though.

01:04:55Guest:Just those crisis of confidence?

01:04:57Guest:Every day, bro.

01:04:58Guest:Yeah.

01:04:58Guest:I had one of those.

01:04:59Guest:I had one of those every day.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah.

01:05:01Guest:Yeah, I had some really intense ones, man.

01:05:03Guest:Like, it was brutal, bro.

01:05:05Guest:Yeah.

01:05:06Guest:It was brutal.

01:05:08Marc:Yeah.

01:05:09Marc:And so, in the new film...

01:05:11Marc:Getting back to what we started with, this world of, you know, blues music and black culture at that time.

01:05:22Marc:I thought, like, because, like, you know, it's a story that...

01:05:27Marc:You know, if you have a certain type of mind, you kind of know the story a little bit of some kind.

01:05:34Marc:You know that, you know, if you're a blues fan, you know the Crossroads story.

01:05:37Marc:Yes, sir.

01:05:38Marc:And, you know, but you took it a little further up in the history.

01:05:41Marc:So now we're, you know, maybe a decade and a half away from Robert Johnson, Charlie Patton.

01:05:47Marc:Yeah.

01:05:48Marc:And, you know, that hasn't really been explored.

01:05:50Marc:But the people in this movie knew that story.

01:05:52Marc:Yes, sir.

01:05:53Marc:Where Charlie Patton's guitar becomes an important thing.

01:05:56Marc:Yes, sir.

01:05:56Marc:And then, you know, the sort of mystery of these twins coming back from Chicago and whatever the fuck they did up there to get this money.

01:06:05Marc:So, like, you know, structuring that story, if it came all out of your head, right, you know, to make it compelling to not reveal why they were there or what they did in Chicago.

01:06:17Marc:But then the big decision is, like, who's the devil going to be?

01:06:22Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:06:22Marc:How are we going to do the devil part?

01:06:26Marc:And it was kind of interesting because it wasn't really a devil movie.

01:06:32Marc:And it's not really necessarily a vampire movie.

01:06:35Marc:It's a movie about the magical power of music.

01:06:41Marc:And how that, you know, can transcend or interpret or give a voice to pain.

01:06:48Marc:Yes, sir.

01:06:49Marc:But then the human component is, you know, the good and evil of it all.

01:06:54Marc:Yeah.

01:06:55Marc:Becomes sort of, you know, the through line of it.

01:06:59Marc:You know, this guy's got to preach her dad.

01:07:00Marc:And then he's going to ultimately, you know, choose.

01:07:04Marc:I don't want to spoil it for anybody.

01:07:06Yeah.

01:07:06Marc:You know, but, like, you know, that was some serious shit he had to go through to still make the choice he made.

01:07:12Guest:Yeah, 100%.

01:07:13Guest:100%, bro.

01:07:13Guest:100%.

01:07:15Guest:Like, we found that structure, too, man.

01:07:18Guest:Like, you know, bro, I loved making this movie, man.

01:07:24Guest:Like, I love... Period piece.

01:07:25Guest:Like, it's great.

01:07:26Guest:I love this movie, bro.

01:07:27Guest:Clothes, everything.

01:07:28Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:07:29Guest:Dancing.

01:07:29Guest:100%.

01:07:29Guest:Like, and...

01:07:31Guest:And I felt like I had to earn it.

01:07:34Guest:You know what I mean?

01:07:34Guest:I feel like I had to go through what I went through with my other movies to be able to have an ability to do this.

01:07:40Marc:Well, it's interesting now because there is a world of black horror that gives a lot of freedom to however you want to do it.

01:07:52Marc:100%, bro.

01:07:53Marc:Jordan, he does his thing.

01:07:57Marc:Beautiful movies.

01:07:57Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:07:59Marc:And weird.

01:08:00Yeah.

01:08:00Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:08:01Marc:100%.

01:08:03Marc:He's like an abstract thinker, and he's willing to take risks.

01:08:07Marc:So you've got that.

01:08:09Marc:There's an audience for it.

01:08:10Marc:Yes, sir.

01:08:11Marc:Yes, sir.

01:08:12Marc:So what were you saying about loving it?

01:08:15Marc:What were the challenges?

01:08:16Marc:Because it did give you an opportunity, too, to explore not necessarily characters that we've known a bit before.

01:08:23Marc:And so I guess on some level—

01:08:27Marc:when you said you were piecing together the story, that the idea of music had to go all the way through it.

01:08:34Guest:Yes.

01:08:35Guest:Yeah, yeah, like so back to family, man, I had an uncle who was from Mississippi, and he was like the oldest,

01:08:44Guest:man in my family that I was around consistently.

01:08:49Guest:His name was Uncle James, James Edmonds.

01:08:53Guest:Blues music was all he would listen to.

01:08:55Guest:That was his get down.

01:09:00Guest:He would come on from work, he'd put a Giants game on, San Francisco Giants baseball game on TV or on the radio.

01:09:08Guest:and have a blues record going.

01:09:09Guest:Like, which ones?

01:09:10Guest:How old?

01:09:11Guest:All of them, man.

01:09:12Guest:Like, all of them.

01:09:13Guest:I mean, his guy was Albert King.

01:09:14Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:09:17Guest:But he listened to all of them, man.

01:09:20Guest:And I associated these songs with...

01:09:25Guest:Him.

01:09:25Guest:Yeah.

01:09:26Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:09:27Guest:Blues wasn't my cup of tea.

01:09:28Guest:Yeah.

01:09:29Guest:And that word has like a connotation that, you know, kind of became associated with old things.

01:09:37Guest:Sure.

01:09:38Guest:And also, like, it didn't feel like it was mine.

01:09:42Guest:You know what I mean?

01:09:44Marc:I think there was a period there where, you know, in some ways it became white.

01:09:51Marc:you know, in terms of, you know, once I think the black community moved away from it for whatever, because it represented something old, then, you know, all the white guys took it.

01:10:02Guest:Well, yeah, like, I mean, this movie, bro, like, we could talk for hours.

01:10:05Guest:Like, I didn't realize how deep you are into it.

01:10:09Guest:But, you know, like, in my research, I discovered that

01:10:17Guest:And people talk about this all the time.

01:10:19Guest:It's not like my discovery.

01:10:21Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:10:21Guest:People will speak to this often.

01:10:25Guest:But you could make the argument that genre is an invention of racism.

01:10:32Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:10:33Guest:You could make the categorization of different types of music.

01:10:38Guest:Yeah.

01:10:38Guest:is essentially like a form of segregation.

01:10:40Guest:Oh, interesting, yeah.

01:10:42Guest:Like, you know, it was, at the time, music was commodified.

01:10:45Guest:Right.

01:10:46Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:10:47Guest:Like, it was a time where it was built on segregation.

01:10:51Guest:You know, so how do I tell people

01:10:53Guest:that this music is made by black people.

01:10:58Guest:Well, I call it a race record.

01:11:01Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:11:02Guest:And that kind of race records became blues or soul or rhythm and blues.

01:11:11Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:11:13Guest:In these categorizations.

01:11:15Guest:And then they were eventually appropriated by the white culture.

01:11:18Guest:Appropriated or reappropriated.

01:11:21Marc:Well, that's interesting because the main vampire, the devil vampire, he's appropriating the souls of black people in a way.

01:11:33Guest:Yeah, in a way, but also...

01:11:35Guest:Like, they also appropriating him once they, once they, you know what I'm saying, once they become, you know, like so.

01:11:42Guest:Sure, the eternal life racket.

01:11:44Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:11:45Guest:Yeah.

01:11:49Guest:Exactly, exactly.

01:11:50Guest:But, you know, it's like no spoilers, but it's also a scene where they sing in his music.

01:11:55Guest:Yeah.

01:11:56Guest:You know what I mean?

01:11:58Guest:Half of it comes from there.

01:12:00Guest:Exactly.

01:12:00Guest:That was the whole, like for me, when I realized, like,

01:12:04Guest:Even the narrative, which is true in part, you know what I'm saying?

01:12:10Guest:That blues came from the continent of Africa.

01:12:12Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:12:13Guest:Totally accurate.

01:12:15Guest:But what we recognize as Delta blues and American blues, you know,

01:12:21Guest:Also, it was contributions from the Choctaw community and contributions from the Irish community.

01:12:25Guest:You know what I mean?

01:12:26Guest:Contributions from, you know, like it had all of these contributions.

01:12:30Guest:The rhythms changed.

01:12:31Guest:Yes, and all these people had a thing in common.

01:12:34Guest:Yeah.

01:12:34Guest:That they had been stepped on.

01:12:36Guest:Right.

01:12:36Guest:You know what I mean?

01:12:37Guest:Yeah.

01:12:37Guest:And made it to feel less than.

01:12:40Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:12:41Guest:That idea, for me, when I dove into the research of this music that my uncle loved, you know what I'm saying?

01:12:49Guest:I was like...

01:12:50Guest:Oh shit, like this is so profound.

01:12:55Guest:And also, like everything that I ever loved that came out of popular culture came from this directly.

01:13:01Guest:Like I could draw a straight line back to, you know, there's a reason I heard Nirvana and liked it immediately.

01:13:07Guest:You know, you know, you know what I'm saying?

01:13:09Guest:Like, like it's because it's where my uncle would play for me.

01:13:13Guest:Yeah.

01:13:13Marc:Well, you know, it's saying about white people, you know, you know what I'm saying?

01:13:15Guest:Yeah.

01:13:16Marc:But it all comes to.

01:13:17Marc:Yeah.

01:13:17Marc:The same the same source point.

01:13:19Marc:Yeah.

01:13:20Marc:I had I had Taj Mahal in here once.

01:13:23Marc:And, you know, like, because I you know, there is a you know, there's a through line.

01:13:28Marc:He's a you know, he's a historian, you know, really.

01:13:31Marc:And I had this old guitar that it was just an old Sears guitar that I used to have just as a, you know, something to look at.

01:13:38Marc:It was strung up.

01:13:39Marc:It played right.

01:13:40Marc:And we were talking about Skip James.

01:13:44Marc:Oh, you're talking about a hard time killing floor?

01:13:46Marc:Yeah.

01:13:47Marc:Well, I'm talking about, like, I don't remember what song it was, but Skip James, you know.

01:13:50Marc:He had, like, some sort of, there was certain guys that had a direct sort of, you know, rhythmic and tonal.

01:13:59Marc:From the continent.

01:13:59Guest:Yeah.

01:13:59Marc:Yeah.

01:14:00Marc:Yeah.

01:14:01Marc:Maybe Senegal or somewhere.

01:14:03Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:14:03Marc:It's all of that.

01:14:04Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:05Marc:So, like, I'm talking to Taj about it.

01:14:07Guest:They call it Senegambia.

01:14:08Marc:Yeah.

01:14:09Marc:It's very specific.

01:14:10Marc:Yes, sir.

01:14:10Marc:But they made it all the way through.

01:14:12Marc:Oh, 100%.

01:14:13Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was not...

01:14:15Guest:you know in a in a in a curve of human history but actually it was yesterday that's right you know i'm saying but taj just picks up he picks up that old guitar yeah three seconds right away is you like go all the way back all the way back to the continent 100 and i was like oh my god 100 magic man yeah 100 so so you were aware of all that i i i was not like i got i mean you became aware i dug

01:14:39Marc:And so that was all informing how you were going to handle this.

01:14:42Marc:But why twins, though?

01:14:44Guest:Oh, that's such a great question.

01:14:46Guest:So, oh, man, bro.

01:14:49Guest:All right.

01:14:50Guest:So it's somewhat of an inside joke with people who know me.

01:14:54Guest:Yeah.

01:14:55Guest:Because I have my only phobia is doppelgangers.

01:14:59Guest:Yeah.

01:15:00Guest:It's the only phobia I have.

01:15:01Guest:It's a weird one.

01:15:02Guest:Super weird one, bro.

01:15:02Guest:Like someone that looks like you?

01:15:04Guest:It's the concept of the doppelganger, like the double that is a harboring of doom.

01:15:09Guest:Okay.

01:15:10Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:15:11Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:15:11Guest:And what's extra crazy about this is,

01:15:15Guest:My family has a ton of twins.

01:15:18Guest:My mom has identical twin older sisters.

01:15:21Guest:One of them is my godmother.

01:15:23Guest:They live right next door to each other to this day.

01:15:28Guest:I got cousins.

01:15:29Guest:My uncle James, his granddaughters are fraternal twins.

01:15:34Guest:One of them just gave birth to fraternal twins this year.

01:15:38Guest:It's a constant in my family.

01:15:43Guest:I wanted to deal with

01:15:45Guest:the archetypes with this movie.

01:15:47Guest:I wanted it to feel like a blues song, like something that you heard before, even though you heard it for the first time.

01:15:54Guest:So I pulled a lot of archetypes, and I was kind of obsessed with this idea of the gangster identical twins, because that's like a theme, you know what I'm saying, that exists.

01:16:07Guest:in a lot of different cultures.

01:16:10Guest:Oh, okay.

01:16:11Guest:In the mythology.

01:16:13Guest:But also in life.

01:16:15Marc:Yeah, I think there was Irish gangsters in Chicago.

01:16:18Marc:What is it, Moran's?

01:16:19Marc:They were brothers.

01:16:20Marc:It's a thing, bro.

01:16:23Guest:Sometimes they're just siblings.

01:16:24Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:16:26Guest:Yeah.

01:16:26Guest:Oh, the Kray brothers.

01:16:27Guest:The Krays.

01:16:28Guest:Yeah, the Krays.

01:16:28Guest:They were twins.

01:16:29Guest:Yeah.

01:16:31Guest:You know, but you got, like, you know, you got, like, Big Meech and Southwest T and BMF out of Detroit.

01:16:37Guest:Or in Long Beach, they had some guys called the Twins.

01:16:40Guest:Yeah.

01:16:41Guest:You know, that came up with Snoop and Warren G. You would hear about them in songs.

01:16:44Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:16:45Guest:It's a line...

01:16:46Guest:and this DJ, a Warren G song, and that's G-Funk, right?

01:16:52Guest:It's like G-Funk is super bluesy, West Coast hip-hop, right?

01:16:56Guest:His song ends where he says, I still know how to make them ends, and if you don't believe me, go ask the Twins.

01:17:04Guest:That's how it ends, you know what I'm saying?

01:17:06Guest:Where he's basically saying, I'm still in the streets, and if you don't believe me, go ask the Twins.

01:17:11Guest:They're even more gangster than me.

01:17:12Guest:They'll check my story out, you know what I mean?

01:17:14Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:17:15Guest:And, like, I got to know people from other neighborhoods.

01:17:17Guest:If you bring up the twins, every neighborhood has them.

01:17:19Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:17:20Guest:Where it's like, oh, yeah, the twins that did.

01:17:22Guest:You know, like, it's like literally it's a thing in black culture, it's a thing in white culture.

01:17:26Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:17:27Guest:It's a thing.

01:17:28Guest:Like, if you're in a neighborhood and somebody is lucky enough to be born with a sibling that looks just like them, they're going to automatically have, like, an advantage.

01:17:36Guest:They'll become local celebrities.

01:17:37Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:17:39Guest:They're going to run tricks on people and get over it.

01:17:41Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:17:42Guest:So then you decided to balance the morality out.

01:17:46Guest:Exactly.

01:17:47Guest:And for that part, I did a lot of research in Identical Twins and the psychology of it.

01:17:54Guest:And I have two filmmaker friends that are from Northern California.

01:17:58Guest:These white dudes that came up in the North Bay.

01:18:01Guest:Noah and Logan Miller.

01:18:05Guest:They filmmakers came up as baseball players first.

01:18:07Guest:You know, hardscrabble guys, you know what I'm saying?

01:18:10Guest:Like broke their way into Hollywood with no nepotism, no none of that.

01:18:12Guest:Just all grind.

01:18:14Guest:You know what I mean?

01:18:16Guest:And they kind of like, you know, I would talk to them.

01:18:19Guest:And eventually I was like, I got to bring y'all on board officially with this.

01:18:22Guest:You know, like, and, you know, they became our twin consultants.

01:18:25Guest:Oh, interesting.

01:18:26Guest:And they worked with me and Mike specifically on, you know, what these guys would be like.

01:18:30Guest:You know what I mean?

01:18:31Guest:Like looking at the time that they came up.

01:18:33Guest:you know, like, their backstory and just the concept of, like, you know, how Noah and Logan describe it is, to them, everybody's weird.

01:18:42Guest:Yeah.

01:18:43Guest:Because, like, they look at everybody, everybody's selfish.

01:18:45Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:18:46Guest:Everybody's kind of, like, out to get them.

01:18:48Guest:You know what I mean?

01:18:48Guest:Like, he was saying, like, when you...

01:18:51Guest:have an identical twin relationship, it automatically makes you hyper-conspiratorial.

01:18:56Guest:You know what I mean?

01:18:57Guest:You're used to people staring at you, strangers coming up to you, talking to you, you know what I mean?

01:19:00Guest:People asking you weird questions.

01:19:02Guest:And it was also a funny time when

01:19:06Guest:When I was talking to them and I realized whenever I'm with them and in their presence, they always sit right next to each other or they stand side by side.

01:19:13Guest:Yeah.

01:19:14Guest:And I asked them one day, I said, hey, man, do you guys always do that with people?

01:19:17Guest:And they say, yeah.

01:19:18Guest:And I said, is that for you guys or is that for us?

01:19:21Guest:They said, it's for you.

01:19:22Guest:You know, they said, as soon as I got a problem with you, we'll split up.

01:19:25Guest:You know what I mean?

01:19:27Guest:And get in a position where you can only look at one of us.

01:19:29Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:19:31Guest:So I thought that was so interesting.

01:19:32Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:33Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:19:33Guest:They know the effect.

01:19:34Guest:That they know the effect.

01:19:35Guest:If they're not next to each other, it freaks people out.

01:19:37Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:19:38Guest:Where's the other guy?

01:19:40Exactly.

01:19:40Yeah.

01:19:40Guest:Which one am I talking to?

01:19:43Guest:Isn't that interesting?

01:19:44Guest:Yeah.

01:19:44Guest:But the concept of growing up like that and what that does to the psyche.

01:19:49Marc:It's funny because it was pretty seamless because I didn't, very quickly I wasn't registering two Michael Jordans.

01:19:57Marc:Yeah.

01:19:58Marc:It worked, you know.

01:19:58Marc:It's just performance, man.

01:20:00Guest:It's the subtleties, you know, because it's not, you could go overboard quick, you know.

01:20:05Guest:Right.

01:20:06Guest:And that's the thing about identical twins, if you know them,

01:20:10Guest:nine times out of 10, they have completely different personalities, but the differences between them are very subtle.

01:20:16Guest:You know what I mean?

01:20:16Guest:Like they're around each other all the fucking time.

01:20:18Guest:So like they basically are the same person, but like subtly off.

01:20:22Guest:You know what I mean?

01:20:23Guest:But if you ever were to get them alone, then the differences really come out.

01:20:29Guest:And you did that through women.

01:20:31Guest:and just through structure like I knew but in terms of the acting oh yeah 100% like knowing who they like who they fell in love with really differentiates the type of person and also a lot of pussy eating talk laughing

01:20:49Marc:I didn't realize that would be a through line.

01:20:53Guest:Yeah, it is in a movie.

01:20:55Guest:I mean, we were having fun, man.

01:20:56Guest:Like, it's a lot of... It's a lot of... It's sexy, man.

01:21:01Guest:Yeah, a lot of talk about all that stuff, but that idea of...

01:21:05Guest:Because what I was trying to figure out was like, why are vampires so sexy?

01:21:08Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:21:10Guest:Like, why are they synonymous with sexuality?

01:21:12Guest:Yeah, why are they the sexy monsters?

01:21:13Guest:Why are they the sexy monsters?

01:21:15Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:21:15Guest:Like, you know, you don't got to say a sexy vampire.

01:21:19Guest:Well, there's an intimacy to it.

01:21:21Guest:Exactly.

01:21:22Guest:And there's also, it's like a marriage.

01:21:24Guest:Yes, sir.

01:21:25Guest:Right?

01:21:26Guest:Yeah.

01:21:27Guest:That's what's so great about it.

01:21:29Guest:And the thing is, is like,

01:21:31Guest:the vampire is synonymous with choice for some reason.

01:21:36Guest:They have to be invited in.

01:21:39Guest:Where they bite, they bite the neck.

01:21:42Guest:It's a sexual situation.

01:21:44Marc:You gotta get close to somebody to do that.

01:21:48Marc:Just a weird question.

01:21:49Marc:Now, the pussy eating thing, did you lean on that?

01:21:53Marc:Is it culturally stigmatized?

01:21:57Guest:Nah, man, like honestly, honestly, bro, where that came from is I had big cousins.

01:22:07Guest:I was like the twins.

01:22:09Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:22:10Guest:And that's the type of things they were talking about.

01:22:14Guest:And the whole thing was like he's, you know, he's out.

01:22:19Guest:His dad's a preacher.

01:22:20Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:22:21Guest:He's the oldest.

01:22:22Guest:He got a bunch of little sisters.

01:22:24Guest:So what are his cousins, what's the kind of shit his older cousins are going to tell him about life?

01:22:28Guest:Sure.

01:22:28Guest:You know what I mean?

01:22:29Guest:That's it.

01:22:30Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:22:31Guest:And Smoke, the whole idea behind him and his performance was that he's like a grandpa.

01:22:37Guest:Yeah.

01:22:37Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:22:38Guest:Like he's the caretaking twin.

01:22:40Guest:Right.

01:22:40Guest:Yeah.

01:22:41Guest:The other twin is a pimp.

01:22:43Guest:Right.

01:22:43Guest:He's like he's like hyper sexualized.

01:22:45Guest:Yeah.

01:22:46Guest:Yeah.

01:22:47Guest:And if you ever meet those guys.

01:22:49Guest:Like what makes those guys those guys is they kind of like have a hyper understanding of what the world is like from a female perspective.

01:23:00Guest:You know what I mean?

01:23:01Guest:That's how they are able to convince women to do crazy shit.

01:23:04Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:23:06Guest:You know, so the whole idea was he would give him

01:23:09Guest:very usable, accurate advice.

01:23:11Guest:You know what I'm saying?

01:23:13Guest:For that type of situation.

01:23:15Guest:That's where the idea came from.

01:23:17Marc:I think the whole thing works really well.

01:23:20Marc:And I thought that the vampires were sufficiently creepy.

01:23:23Marc:That's good.

01:23:25Marc:And I don't want to spoil the beat at the end, even during the credits.

01:23:31Marc:Because people who like the blues are going to be excited by it.

01:23:39Marc:Did he play that last bit?

01:23:41Marc:He did.

01:23:42Marc:That's him on the guitar?

01:23:43Marc:That's him.

01:23:44Marc:On that last song?

01:23:45Marc:The very end.

01:23:46Marc:Yeah.

01:23:47Marc:Holy shit.

01:23:48Marc:Because I've seen him a few times.

01:23:49Marc:I've had him in here.

01:23:50Marc:I was just playing with his fucking pick yesterday.

01:23:53Yeah.

01:23:53Guest:Right there.

01:23:54Guest:Yeah, that's him, bro.

01:23:55Guest:That's him acoustic.

01:23:56Guest:Yeah, that's him.

01:23:57Guest:Oh, my God.

01:23:58Guest:Who's on that electric lead?

01:24:00Guest:On the credits.

01:24:02Guest:On the electric.

01:24:02Guest:Okay, so that is Eric Gills.

01:24:08Guest:Yeah, and also Kingfish.

01:24:10Guest:Oh, yeah, I just met Kingfish.

01:24:12Guest:Yeah, Kingfish is in the movies.

01:24:14Guest:Yeah, scene, but that's Eric Gales you listening to there.

01:24:17Guest:Yeah, oh, wow.

01:24:17Guest:But that last scene, that's who you asking about.

01:24:20Guest:Yeah, yeah, oh, good.

01:24:21Guest:No adjustments, that's him.

01:24:22Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:23Guest:Yeah, he's great.

01:24:24Guest:It's weird seeing him play that, right?

01:24:25Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:24:26Guest:Yeah.

01:24:26Guest:Well, you know, they all started there.

01:24:28Guest:A hundred percent.

01:24:30Marc:You know, but like he, you know, as he's gotten older, he's become more of a showman.

01:24:36Marc:His licks are different.

01:24:37Marc:You know what I mean?

01:24:38Marc:He'll just pop a couple off and then he'll just smile.

01:24:40Marc:Yeah, that's it.

01:24:41Marc:Yeah.

01:24:42Marc:Yeah.

01:24:43Marc:Well, it's great talking to you, man.

01:24:44Marc:It's a good movie.

01:24:44Marc:Likewise, bro.

01:24:45Marc:Thank you, bro.

01:24:46Marc:I hope it does well for you.

01:24:47Marc:I appreciate that, man.

01:24:53Marc:There you go, folks.

01:24:55Marc:Again, Sinners opens in theaters this Friday.

01:24:59Marc:Hang out for a minute.

01:25:03Marc:All right, people.

01:25:04Marc:We've got another Ask Mark Anything episode for full Marin subscribers dropping tomorrow.

01:25:09Marc:These are bonus episodes where I answer the questions sent in by you like this one.

01:25:15Marc:As you prepare to direct your film, what personal challenges do you anticipate facing?

01:25:19Marc:How do you plan to tackle them?

01:25:21Marc:Anxiety and impatience.

01:25:23Marc:I think the biggest challenge is going to be to afford myself the confidence and space to know when a take is done, to know when a set is set up, to know what I'm looking for, and not to be freaked out all the time.

01:25:35Marc:Just to realize that I've put a good team together, and hopefully I will, to afford me the space necessary to just focus on directing the film.

01:25:43Marc:Get the new Ask Mark Anything episode tomorrow.

01:25:45Marc:Sign up for the full Marin.

01:25:47Marc:Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

01:25:53Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.

01:25:57Marc:Here's some classic Mark Maron guitar noodling.

01:26:03Thank you.

01:26:53Thank you.

01:27:19Guest:Boomer lives.

01:27:23Guest:Monkey.

01:27:24Guest:La Fonda.

01:27:25Guest:Cat angels everywhere.

01:27:27Guest:And that was fucking take two, man.