Episode 1631 - Lynne Margulies
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how are you i'm mark maron this is my podcast
Marc:This is it.
Marc:This is what I do.
Marc:This and a few other things.
Marc:How are you guys adjusting to authoritarianism?
Marc:How's that going for you?
Marc:At some point, the despair and hopelessness and anger gives way to something.
Marc:Some sort of adaptation.
Marc:You can fight the fight as long as you want.
Marc:Boycott the Tesla.
Marc:Boycott the Amazon.
Marc:Make a sign.
Marc:Get out there and protest with a sign that says, please just stop.
Marc:This is fucking crazy.
Marc:You know, bold letter crazy.
Marc:Bold letter stop.
Marc:So much coming at us at all times.
Marc:Hard to be specific.
Marc:all of it bad please just stop this is fucking crazy and vote and get behind people that you think can uh maybe surface in the future but how are you adapting to authoritarianism it's interesting with tragedy isn't it covid
Marc:climate change is eventually you know people are yeah a few days go by a few months go by and they're like well i guess i'm relatively okay and then you think about friends or family or people that aren't and then you kind of feel bad you want to help them out or try to change something please just stop this is fucking crazy
Marc:That ought to do it.
Marc:That ought to fucking do it.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:It's just going to be awful for the rest of time.
Marc:You got to find some sanity.
Marc:Find some fucking sanity.
Marc:Try to do the right thing by you and yours.
Marc:Get behind the right things and make those signs, please.
Marc:Just fucking stop.
Marc:This is fucking crazy.
Marc:I had a fucking, there's two fuckings in there now.
Marc:It's a bigger sign.
Marc:So look, today on the show, I'm talking to Lynn Margulies.
Marc:She's an artist and the co-director of the 1989 documentary, I'm From Hollywood.
Marc:And that film was about her late boyfriend, Andy Kaufman, and his foray into wrestling.
Marc:Now, there's this new doc about Andy out, and she's part of it.
Marc:The documentary is called Thank You Very Much, directed by Alex Braverman.
Marc:It's been in the works a while, and I don't care if you're an Andy fan or not.
Marc:You got to know about Kaufman.
Marc:You got to know about him.
Marc:I mean, you know, he was a challenging, one-of-a-kind, comedic supernova of a certain ilk.
Marc:He's the only one.
Marc:There's only one Andy Kaufman.
Marc:And he has influenced a lot of people.
Marc:I mean, really, in terms of real punk rock comedy, real comedy that bends reality into something that you don't really know.
Marc:what is happening or understand why it's happening.
Marc:And you're forced into this time zone of, uh, of laughing discomfort, sometimes repulsion, sometimes anger, any zone of reaction was, uh, was fine with Andy as long as it was focused on him and what he was doing.
Marc:I mean, some of it is relentlessly uncomfortable.
Marc:And for me, uh,
Marc:I don't know that I was a fan early on.
Marc:I am a more kind of...
Marc:real guy.
Marc:I'm not a huge fan of absurdism or bending reality or challenging in the way that he did.
Marc:I just like people to put their heart on the line.
Marc:And I don't know that maybe he thought he did that.
Marc:I don't know that it doesn't seem like he did.
Marc:It was more of a provocateur kind of thing, but it wasn't my bag.
Marc:But I did cultivate an appreciation for Andy as years went by.
Marc:And there's some things that he did as I get older that I appreciate even more.
Marc:And I missed a lot of it.
Marc:I feel like I did.
Marc:But his Carnegie Hall concert was spectacular.
Marc:There's a bit in there that is one of the best things I've ever seen in my life.
Marc:I talked to Lynn a bit about that.
Marc:But there is something about this doc.
Marc:And we've talked to a lot of people recently.
Marc:on this show about Andy, people who worked with Andy.
Marc:And we've got a pretty good catalog of just people talking about Andy on this show, which is pretty comprehensive.
Marc:But this documentary did something that I think has never really been done.
Marc:It humanizes Andy in a way that hasn't been explored, making connections in his childhood.
Marc:And in his life, through events, pre his performing years, that could somehow put him more into perspective, explain some elements of his personality, which was hard to really kind of nail down because he was moving through so many.
Marc:And whoever the real Andy Kaufman was, who knows who their real self is, really.
Marc:But he kind of played a lot with that.
Marc:But this doc really tries to get at that.
Marc:And I didn't know where the conversation with Lynn would go, but we got some places about him and about the arc of what he was going through and how he seemingly sabotaged his career and his relationships in the name of his expression.
Marc:I don't think he ever considered himself a performance artist or an artist necessarily, but he was someone who had to do what he was doing.
Marc:Thank God he did, because God knows what he would have been had he not done that.
Marc:But the documentary is totally worth watching.
Marc:It's called Thank You Very Much.
Marc:And I believe it's available.
Marc:It's now playing in theaters and it's available to watch on digital on-demand platforms.
Marc:You can go to thankyouverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more details.
Marc:But it's a pretty great portrait and biography of
Marc:of one of the great American artists of comedy, certainly.
Marc:And in the doc, they even got Bob Zamuda to talk like a person and really just reflect on his friendship with Andy as opposed to continue mythologizing him and insinuating that he's still alive or what have you.
Marc:And they talked to a lot of people who worked with him and people who had thoughts about him.
Marc:It's a pretty solid doc, and I was happy I saw it.
Marc:I'll be in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Marc:I'm coming to GLC Live at 20 Monroe on Friday, April 11th.
Marc:And then Traverse City, Michigan, I'll be at the City Opera House on Saturday, April 12th.
Marc:In Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter Monday, April 14th.
Marc:Saturday, April 26th, and Tuesday, April 29th.
Marc:Those are all at 7.30 p.m.
Marc:Largo in L.A.
Marc:I've got an 8 p.m.
Marc:show on Tuesday, April 22nd.
Marc:Then I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.
Marc:If you want to get in on that HBO taping, I would get in on it.
Marc:I think that the...
Marc:The tickets are moving pretty quickly and there's not a ton left.
Marc:In other news, let's get mundane.
Marc:Let's get to the minutia.
Marc:Let's get to what's happening in my immediate world.
Marc:I'm finally back for a few days.
Marc:And as I've talked about before, the problem with Charlie.
Marc:The problem with Charlie.
Marc:Charlie is my youngest cat.
Marc:Charlie is an asshole.
Marc:He's a spoiled brat.
Marc:And he's a troublemaker.
Marc:But on another level, when I leave town, he goes through profound stress that causes him to lash out at the other cats, causes him to vomit, causes him to shit all over the house.
Marc:diarrhea, with stress-induced colitis.
Marc:And it's a problem.
Marc:It's not a fun thing to come home to.
Marc:And once he was diagnosed with this stress-induced separation anxiety thing that manifests in all these different ways, the vet, and I've talked about this before, but we've moved forward a bit here.
Marc:The vet prescribed Fluxitine.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Marc:Fluxitine Prozac.
Marc:And as I mentioned before, I projected my own issues with me taking Prozac onto the cat.
Marc:And it's an ongoing conversation.
Marc:And I'm on medicine now, too, for the first time in many years with some confidence in it.
Marc:But I really was concerned about Charlie's personality.
Marc:I didn't want to mess with his assleness.
Marc:Now, look, when you have a cat, it's an odd relationship because they're all kind of crazy.
Marc:And they all go through periods of insanity that destroys your house one way or the other.
Marc:Whether it's, oh, he's peeing too outside the box when he gets stressed.
Marc:You know, whether it's pee or vomit or destruction of furniture or...
Marc:Or, you know, when they get old, you know, whether or not how long to extend their lives with with fluids.
Marc:And, you know, they there's all kinds of different phases and their personalities change over time.
Marc:I've had a lot of cats.
Marc:I know this.
Marc:But there's something about the assholes that the longer they stay an asshole, the more if you're like me, who's kind of a stubborn asshole ish person at times.
Marc:I, you know, I like that.
Marc:I like it to a point you still get mad, but that's part of the dynamic is being able to go, oh, fuck, Charlie, why did you do this?
Marc:Why is that a good thing?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I decided since I do have a little travel coming up and maybe I didn't want to deal with all that nonsense that I'd go ahead and do the Prozac.
Marc:And that means you have to administer medicine to a fucking cat.
Marc:And for some reason, no matter how far pet medicine comes, there's no easy way or delivery system to give cats fucking medicine.
Marc:You can't give cats pills.
Marc:Maybe some people can, but I've never had a cat that I could give a pill to effectively, unless I mash it up and mash it into chicken when I was treating monkey for the hypertension.
Marc:But there's just no fucking way, and they hate you.
Marc:You're squirting stuff in their mouth, and they hate you for a little while, and I take it personally.
Marc:I'm too...
Marc:I anthropomorphize too much, but like I've gotten, you know, I can get the Prozac into Charlie.
Marc:So I got him on it for two days.
Marc:Now it's been three days.
Marc:And I'm pretty sure that like, you know, I've, I've just, I've, you know, I've, I feel like because of the nature of the dynamic I have with the few cats that I have, there's a community there.
Marc:And some part of me feels like I just lobotomized McMurphy.
Marc:It's just ridiculous.
Marc:And I have this conversation with Kit.
Marc:I'm like, well, I don't want to lose him or change him, even though cats change.
Marc:And even though this is an issue that I don't want to deal with anymore.
Marc:But I wasn't really thinking of the cat.
Marc:Kit was like, look, he's not happy when he's shitting everywhere and peeing out of the box or throwing up or beating up on the other cats.
Marc:It's not – you're providing –
Marc:a happier life for him.
Marc:And I just, you know, I still couldn't wrap my brain around it.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:It's ridiculous that some part of me is sort of like, hey, you know, I mean, diarrhea literally everywhere in the house.
Marc:In some surprising places, I just found some diarrhea, dried diarrhea on top of the bookshelf where Charlie sometimes kind of goes if he's scared or Kip brings the...
Marc:the the bull terrier over so i look i i've come around to it and but but today i went through like i was like is he fucked up already is he like he seems lethargic he seems like he's not happy i don't know what to do and i call the vet and i want to know exactly what happens to cats on prozac it's it's a lot of energy and and i think it's probably the best thing for him at least to try it since i'm going to be away a bit
Marc:And maybe he'll be more comfortable when I'm away.
Marc:Maybe he won't.
Marc:I mean, Buster is hissing at Charlie for days now.
Marc:I don't even know what the fuck happened in this house when I left this last time.
Marc:But there was a major battle.
Marc:I'm thinking, am I doing Buster's bidding?
Marc:Is Charlie the rightful alpha of this small crew?
Marc:And now, like, you know, I've diminished his ability to focus on being that.
Marc:And Buster, I'm just keeping Buster king, which isn't bad, I guess.
Marc:But it does, you know, it's like, what am I taking away from?
Marc:See, I'm still spiraling about it.
Marc:It's stupid.
Marc:Also, I mentioned it must be a week or so that I'm taking this.
Marc:This medicine now, busporin, busporine, something like that.
Marc:But it's a, you know, I decided I was done with the anxiety of panic and my brain choosing to spiral sometimes for days about things that aren't real.
Marc:They're possible, but they're not real.
Marc:And it's a manifestation of intrusive thought, obsessional anxiety, whatever.
Marc:But I decided to try the medicine and
Marc:And it's been a week or so and I think something's happening and it's surprising what's happening because it gives me more confidence in the decision to take it.
Marc:Like it's one thing when you have cognitive problems like I do, like I know what's happening in my brain and I know when it's happening and I can make a choice.
Marc:To try to stop it, you know, in a cognitive way, you know, whatever it is, meditation or exercise or trying to stop the noise in the head or get present, whatever, you know, the cognitive tools are for stopping these patterns of thought that I am conscious of happening.
Marc:But something seems to be happening on a deeper level, which I find interesting.
Marc:And I got to talk to the shrink about it when I go back there to check in.
Marc:But I've noticed, and I don't know if it's possible, I've noticed that I'm breathing better.
Marc:Now, I don't know where you hold your anxiety or stress or panic, but my chest tightens up.
Marc:Always has.
Marc:And all of a sudden, I've noticed that I'm breathing better.
Marc:And also, I'm sleeping better and deeper.
Marc:And also, according to my Whoop Watch, my recovery has been better than usual, which means less stress.
Marc:So I think that this medicine is operating at a deep level on that part of my brain that is constantly in a certain amount of fight or flight, a certain amount of panic.
Marc:And I hope that's true.
Marc:I don't know what other people's experience are with this medicine, busporine.
Marc:But it seems to be that what I'm noticing before anything else is something at a level that is, you know, I cannot change cognitively deeper and it's having real effects on my my my body.
Marc:in the way of breathing easier and in the way of better recovery, because apparently I'm not sleeping as stressfully or I'm not as stressed in general doing just life stuff.
Marc:So that is positive also.
Marc:And this is where you can chime in because somebody hit me to I was talking about walnut oil.
Marc:And it's pretty common that people who listen to this show, they'll chime in.
Marc:And some guy was going at it on the email about pecan oil.
Marc:He's got this place, Oliver Farms or something.
Marc:I'm not sure.
Marc:I should know better.
Marc:But I think the word Oliver's in it.
Marc:But...
Marc:But they do all the oils.
Marc:They do all these cold press oils.
Marc:They got pecan oil.
Marc:They got pumpkin oil.
Marc:They got okra seed oil.
Marc:They got, you know, linseed, I think.
Marc:But the pecan oil.
Marc:Because he said pecans are better even than walnuts in terms of the omegas and the health benefits.
Marc:So I'm like, I'm turning into this oil weirdo.
Marc:And it's not snake oil.
Marc:It's nut oil.
Marc:I'm not even saying it's anything other than what it is.
Marc:And I'm hoping for the best, but I've become like kind of a proponent, a nut oil proponent.
Marc:I got no grift.
Marc:I'm not making any money on the back end of this.
Marc:And I'm not trying to...
Marc:to sell you any sort of health hokum.
Marc:But I did buy some pecan oil and some pumpkin seed oil and some okra seed oil.
Marc:And the only reason I got the okra seed oil was because this guy that sometimes drives me to the airport, Tom, he's an old Armenian guy.
Marc:He had heard that okra seeds bring your cholesterol down.
Marc:I don't even know it's true.
Marc:I can't even find any research on it.
Marc:But I'm like, well, fuck it.
Marc:I'll get some okra oil.
Marc:But now when I make a smoothie, it's a teaspoon of the pecan oil, teaspoon of the walnut oil, and a teaspoon of the pumpkin seed oil.
Marc:Because those are the ones, man.
Marc:So now I don't know.
Marc:Again, all I know is that since I've been vegan and I'd like to credit the oils with the lack of inflammation in my arthritic toes.
Marc:And again, I'm not trying to pitch anything to you, but I would like some feedback.
Yeah.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Anyone got any any word, any info, any word on the street about okra seeds?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:What do you know?
Marc:Tell me the pros and cons of the pumpkin oil, pumpkin seed oil.
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:Pecan oil.
Marc:What do you know?
Marc:I mean, I started with walnut oil, but now I'm going oil fucking nuts on nut oil.
Marc:Yeah, it's happening.
Marc:OK, so Lynn Margulies.
Marc:The documentary she appears in, thank you very much, about Andy Kaufman, her late boyfriend.
Marc:She was with him the last couple of years of his life, is now playing in theaters and is available to watch on digital on-demand platforms.
Marc:You can go to thankyouverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more details.
Marc:And this is me talking to Lynn Margulies.
Thank you.
Marc:So you live in New York still?
Guest:No, I live up on the Oregon coast.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I'm from here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When did you run away to Oregon?
Guest:That was my most recent running away.
Guest:I grew up in San Fernando.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you had to get away pretty... I got away early and then came back, then went away, then came back.
Guest:I lived in San Francisco for 15 years.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where at?
Yeah.
Guest:First, I started in Noe Valley.
Marc:Yeah, that's nice.
Marc:You know Noe Valley?
Marc:Yeah, I lived there for a couple years.
Guest:I lived on 24th Street above the Wells Fargo.
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Guest:What years were that?
Guest:That was when Andy was alive.
Marc:It was.
Guest:So that was 80... I went up in 81, 82, 83.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so what's it... Because when you watch this documentary, you think it does the job?
Marc:It does.
Marc:Because you know what?
Guest:Including me because I'm a filmmaker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everyone who made something about Andy just it was his performances.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like one performance after another.
Guest:And but what Alex wanted to do when I met him, I could just tell he wanted to figure out what was underneath it all.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think this is the first time that's happened.
Marc:It's the first time.
Marc:And I think because, you know, I've talked to Bob.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I re-listened to that.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Oh, what a storyteller, eh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but the problem is, is like, I think one of the issues with Andy, especially with Zamuda as the guy in charge of the myth and the legacy.
Guest:And me.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But him more so.
Marc:No, but I mean, but he like was public facing all the time.
Marc:I mean, he was doing it on purpose.
Marc:I mean, there were points where like it was, you know, you're...
Marc:Right.
Marc:with cryptic endings, you know, that suggest something.
Marc:And I know, though he won't cop to it, that, you know, he was doing Clifton long after Andy died.
Marc:And everyone knew that, but Bob was like, no, no, you know, whatever.
Guest:Well, yeah, there's Clifton and there's Clifton.
Marc:Yeah, and Clifton, you know, he can be inhabited by whoever wants to inhabit Clifton.
Guest:And I was going to say, when someone does Clifton, they change.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Like Jim Carrey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that was great.
Guest:I was on the film the whole time.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And, yeah, I mean, you become Clifton and you do stuff you would never do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, because you have freedom.
Marc:You have total freedom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:But I thought this doc, in terms of answering certain questions and suggesting certain things that were...
Marc:Kind of investigative, you know, on behalf of Alex, the director, in terms of making those connections, you know, around the death of Andy's grandfather and then the impact of the Maharishi.
Marc:I mean, that's the whole core of the thing on some level.
Marc:But I mean, whatever Andy did with it, he did with it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess in terms of you, there seems to be a responsibility on behalf of the people that love the guy to sort of make sure the legacy stays alive.
Guest:Well, he actually made us promise, me and Bob both.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he actually did.
Guest:Bob says...
Guest:That Andy made him promise to keep Clifton alive, and that's true.
Guest:And what Andy made me promise, because we were working on I'm From Hollywood at the time, which is that documentary.
Guest:He made me promise to finish it, and then he said I had to promise him that I would get his work out into the world.
Marc:But this is before he was sick.
Guest:This is when he was sick.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I'm From Hollywood, that's the Fred Blassie one?
Guest:No, that's My Breakfast with Blassie.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I'm From Hollywood is about his wrestling in Memphis.
Marc:Oh, right, right, right.
Guest:Oh, you should see it.
Guest:It's funny.
Marc:I think I have seen it.
Guest:It's funny.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I found him funnier.
Marc:As I get older, I find him more funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I don't know, because I'm kind of a straight stand up, you know, and you're in the midst of it.
Marc:Well, there's the Kaufman school and then there's the other school and he's singular.
Marc:So anybody who is playing around in that area, you know, you're always going to get like, oh, he's doing Andy Kaufman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and there are guys who do the Andy Kaufman thing now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, there were.
Marc:I mean, I knew guys that were so influenced by him, like Dave Cross early on.
Marc:And there were other cats that were doing the kind of is this real?
Marc:Is this not real?
Marc:But when you and I'm glad that Laurie Anderson was in there because I talked to her and she told me that about her relationship with Andy.
Marc:And I didn't think it was a known thing, but I guess she wasn't really.
Marc:But that song they played, is that an existing song?
Guest:Which song is it?
Marc:Behind Andy, she does one of her Laurie Anderson.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And she mentions Andy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's an existing song.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I heard that back in the 90s.
Marc:Oh, so that was... So it was always kind of there.
Marc:It was such an odd connection.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Him connected to... And it makes perfect sense.
Guest:It's before either of them were famous.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:But it would have been... He knew that he was doing something that transcended stand-up early on.
Marc:That it was more of a... I don't know how he would have...
Guest:He didn't think that way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But he was in comedy clubs.
Guest:He was, because that's the only place he could do that stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where else would he do it?
Guest:Out on the streets, which he did.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or in performance art spaces.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Down the Lower East Side.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So how old were you when you met him?
Guest:God, I was a baby.
Guest:I was 27 when he died.
Guest:And, you know, we were just together for two years.
Guest:I met him in 82, right after he got the neck brace.
Guest:Breakfast with Blassie was shot just after the David Letterman show.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where he got slapped.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I was in Breakfast with Blassie.
Guest:I'm the one that he meets.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You talked to him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you were working on that set or what was it?
Guest:My brother is Johnny Legend who directed it.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I was living up in the mountains of Northern California.
Guest:I didn't know who Andy was.
Guest:I didn't have a TV.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:Well, what was that about?
Guest:Living up there?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm just not an L.A.
Guest:girl, you know?
Guest:I'm not an L.A.
Guest:girl.
Marc:But the decision to not have a TV and to, you know.
Guest:I just didn't care.
Guest:I just didn't care.
Marc:How about now?
Guest:I watch TV now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We like to binge watch shows.
Yeah.
Guest:But left to my own devices, I wouldn't watch TV that much, I don't think.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:And so you're on this set, and you're just taken with this guy?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:What happened is they put us in an empty room.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so we, myself, Linda Luttrek, who was the co-producer, her sister, and Andy's assistant, Linda, they just put us behind them, at the table behind them, and they said, just eat.
Guest:Just eat.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Backgrounds.
Guest:And then I got sucked in.
Guest:They sucked me in, you know, to the scene.
Guest:And I didn't know who Andy was.
Guest:I knew Fred.
Guest:I've known Fred since I was six.
Marc:How come?
Guest:Because my brother used to take me to the Olympic auditorium with him when I was six years old.
Marc:To watch the wrestling?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, Freddy I'd known almost all my life.
Guest:But who's Andy?
Guest:I don't know who Andy Kaufman is, you know.
Marc:What is it about?
Marc:You know, it's interesting because the wrestling thing...
Marc:I think the documentary is very good because it allows you to assess the full arc of what he was up to, you know, in all its forms.
Marc:But then ultimately...
Marc:The wrestling, especially since what the country's become, was really a fairly astute and intuitive reaction or trying to understand the culture we live in.
Guest:You know, everyone wants to assign stuff like that to Andy.
Guest:He just loved wrestling.
Guest:I mean, period.
Guest:He just loved wrestling.
Guest:He loved the bad guy, good guy stuff.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But for him to kind of land there as almost his last major work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You can't remove him from the culture, right?
Guest:No, you can't.
Guest:But he wasn't thinking of that.
Marc:I know.
Guest:When at the end of his career, when no one would hire him anymore because of all of his shenanigans, he said, well, maybe I'll just be a wrestling manager now.
Guest:I mean...
Marc:He just loved wrestling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He loved.
Guest:I mean, if you think about it, everything he did was wrestling his entire career.
Guest:It was like, you're one thing, then you're another.
Guest:You're a good guy, then you're a bad guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, throw everyone for a loop and everything.
Guest:If you look at all of his stuff he did, it's all wrestling.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and I also like the idea of any reaction.
Guest:Any reaction was good.
Marc:It's a good reaction.
Guest:Oh, he loved it.
Guest:The madder people got at him, the happier he was.
Marc:Well, that's a very unique person.
Marc:I know.
Marc:To not care.
Marc:To not care, but on another level, to embrace any kind of attention.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, there's a not caring to it.
Marc:But when people are mad at you, it's almost a more focused and more intense attention than if they like you.
Marc:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:They are really focused on you.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he just soaked it up.
Guest:He loved it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We have a president like that now.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:I don't know what you do with people like that when they're evil intended, when they want any kind of attention.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Have you seen back the first time Trump was in office, someone put out a picture of him unzipping himself and Andy was stepping out.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:That's pretty smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wish that were the case.
Guest:That was the first time.
Yeah.
Marc:So what does Andy represent?
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:You know, what Andy represents to people.
Marc:But your experience with him, you know, like after you met him, I mean, do you feel like there's this idea of in the doc that's kind of kicked around a bit, the real Andy?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel like you saw that?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Andy, when he wasn't doing stuff, which he was a lot, you know, like just at home.
Marc:He was doing stuff at home at the restaurant?
Guest:No, not at the restaurant, but out in public on the streets.
Guest:He would suddenly start doing stuff.
Guest:He'd start strangling me, you know, stuff like that.
Guest:But at home, he was just a quiet, just normal, intelligent, quiet person.
Marc:Funny.
Yeah.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, he never told jokes or anything.
Guest:He was not funny.
Guest:He was just a guy.
Marc:He wasn't quick-witted or anything.
Guest:No, he was just really intelligent.
Guest:Highly intelligent.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah.
Marc:And so, so that's kind of interesting.
Marc:So the, the entire thing had to be a, it always had to be a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you guys started doing, so I guess as a 27 year old, you're just excited to be 25, 25.
Marc:And he was how old?
Guest:He was, I think, eight years older than me, seven years older than me.
Marc:So it was probably just kind of weird fun?
Guest:Yeah, and see, that's the thing, is I was very like him.
Guest:I could give a shit about famous people.
Guest:I didn't care.
Guest:It's just he and I were really alike, and I was just floating through life.
Guest:I had no ambitions.
Guest:I didn't want to be an actress.
Guest:I didn't want to be this.
Guest:I didn't want to be that.
Marc:Did you grow up in show business?
Guest:No, but my brother was Johnny Legend.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My dad was a doctor.
Guest:My mom was a nurse.
Guest:Out in the valley?
Guest:Out in the valley in San Fernando.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Orange Grove Avenue.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I was just floating along.
Guest:And so it was perfect.
Marc:But what was it like?
Marc:So when were you born?
Guest:57.
Marc:So you were here, like, I mean, Hollywood in the 70s was crazy.
Yeah.
Guest:I guess so.
Marc:But I mean, when you were going out, what was the vibe?
Marc:So you met Andy in the 80s, right?
Guest:I met him in 82, yeah.
Guest:In the 70s, yeah.
Guest:We used to go to Hollywood Boulevard and hang out and stuff.
Marc:Pretty crazy?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Dirty and weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And crowded.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, Hollywood Boulevard was nuts on the weekends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you guys, what was Andy doing when you met him performance was?
Guest:He was still doing taxi.
Marc:Oh, he was?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:He was still on taxi.
Marc:But it was tense.
Marc:I was always tense.
Guest:Yeah, I remember one time we were meditating in his dressing room and they were out there rehearsing.
Guest:And what's his name?
Marc:DeVito?
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Guest:The guy who's in my film.
Guest:I'm getting old and I lose things.
Guest:I have a lacuna brain now.
Guest:The boxer.
Guest:oh danza yeah he was pounding on the door yeah andy get your ass out here get it and i i'll open my eyes and andy's just sitting there with his little smile on his face you know what a difficult thing for everybody oh i know they all hate i mean i know when danny didn't hate him but no when i when i watched the the the doc i realized like judd's gotta hate this guy judd hated him
Marc:This guy still hated him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And he's like 90 something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I worked with him.
Guest:Judd hated him.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I saw.
Guest:I watched your show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I saw it.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but yeah, it's a lot to deal with.
Marc:And Andy just didn't.
Marc:He didn't care.
Marc:But do you think that on some level was he did he did he lack empathy?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He did.
Guest:Except for certain things, like, I know there was, like, people he would visit in the hospital.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:You know?
Guest:He would go visit, you know, people in the hospital every now and again.
Guest:Random people?
Guest:No.
Guest:People he knew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, some woman was in the hospital, and he'd go visit her when he was in town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But...
Guest:No, he really didn't.
Guest:He was in his own.
Guest:It was Andy's world.
Guest:It was his world.
Marc:Well, it's fortunate he was talented.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, who knows what would have happened to him if he wasn't.
Marc:Well, when you were with him, did you guys, because there's a lot of stuff he talks about that I didn't know, tracking his life, this idea that hadn't he found TM?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:He would have been a drug addict.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you think that's true?
Guest:He said it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he said it over and over again that he was living in a park and he was doing drugs and he was drinking.
Guest:And then TM, he said TM saved him.
Marc:That footage of him asking the Maharishi that question, who the hell had that?
Marc:How did he find that?
Guest:The TM archives.
Guest:Oh, they did.
Guest:They actually went to, you know, Lauren.
Guest:Lauren got it all done.
Marc:That is crazy.
Marc:Lauren Belfer.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:It's a crazy moment where, you know, his question is so specific.
Marc:And at that time, he knew that somehow or another comedy was the answer for him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, the question about the nature of comedy and that Maharishi answered it with this idea of – I can't remember exactly what he said.
Marc:Something about silence, right?
Guest:Something about silence, yeah.
Guest:It all comes down to silence.
Marc:And then you have this realization.
Marc:It's the same with David Lynch in a way, that they create a zone –
Marc:of experience that is not really easily or able to be processed by an audience.
Marc:By normal humans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're suspended in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:Well, like that, that kind of blew my mind that they create.
Marc:It's not a meditative state, but it is a altered perception.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it's happening in the moment.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And that's kind of crazy.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Andy, at the end of his life, they had cards printed up.
Guest:He was going to do a tour called On Creating Reality.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Do you know what that was about?
Guest:I think he was going to fill it with a lot of mumbo jumbo.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But still.
Guest:Because all of us, everyone out in the world are all trying to...
Guest:put a name to what he did and put a reason to what he did and figure out what he did.
Guest:And he just laughed at that because he just did what he did because it was fun.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he was going to do this tour called On Creating Reality.
Marc:Well, it's an interesting thing about a person who...
Marc:I've only met a few that they get this idea in their head and no matter whether it makes sense or not, there's something about conjuring it that the will to commit to it.
Marc:Is crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because, you know, why?
Guest:And then the will to see it through.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, why?
Marc:Why?
Marc:And everyone wants to figure out why.
Marc:Well, I guess that's the nature of a real artist, right?
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:Is that you don't answer the question.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:But a lot of them do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:A lot of them do, especially if they do stuff like Andy did.
Guest:They can't stand the backlash.
Guest:They have to let on, you know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Doesn't everyone, like, finally explain what they're doing or why they're doing it?
Marc:How are you even going to explain from the beginning?
Marc:How are you going to explain, you know, the, what was it, the Mighty Mouse thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How are you going to explain that?
Marc:You can't.
Marc:No, you can't.
Marc:Because you're just doing it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You can explain foreign guy.
Marc:And why is it funny?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Well, I think that's the real genius part is that it is still a commitment to comedy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you still get to a point where you're like, holy shit, you're laughing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it's crazy.
Guest:He thought of himself more as vaudeville.
Marc:Yeah, I could see that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not comedy.
Guest:He never thought of himself having to do with comedy.
Guest:It was vaudeville.
Marc:So you're with him when he gets fired or when Taxi ends?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:He must have seen it coming.
Marc:Or no, I guess not.
Marc:It had nothing to do with him that the show was stopped.
Guest:Yeah, he was relieved.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He really hated doing Taxi.
Marc:Because he was stuck.
Guest:He felt like he was sold out, sold out foreign man and made it commercial.
Guest:But on the other hand, it made him money and it made him able to do all the other things he did because he was famous.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he could do all these things and be on shows and do stuff in the streets and stuff because he was famous because of Taxi.
Marc:And this is before the Jerry's Deli or after?
Marc:It's after he worked at Jerry's, right?
Guest:Jerry's was during Taxi.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You weren't with him though.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, he wasn't doing that then.
Marc:I kind of remember that being a thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, coming out here, I was in New York and, you know, there's this guy working at.
Marc:Coffins working at Jerry's.
Marc:And I'm like, that's crazy.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:And so what happens after taxi ends with you guys?
Guest:That's when it started being, well, he was still on Letterman.
Marc:But he... Letterman, I think, liked him.
Guest:Letterman loved him.
Guest:Letterman loved Andy.
Guest:At the time, I think Andy had been the guest more times than anyone else.
Marc:Was that the period where he brought the adopted kids on?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Were you there?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:In fact, we met them at Times Square.
Marc:We went to Times Square and... They were just guys on the street?
Guest:They were at an arcade playing games.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And Andy just started talking to them.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Yeah, and said, hey, you want to be on Letterman with me?
Marc:And they didn't really know him, or one of them did.
Marc:They might have known who he was.
Marc:So he literally found those guys in Times Square and then walked up to the studio with them.
Guest:Not that day.
Guest:Not that day.
Guest:No, he got their phone numbers and stuff and then got them together to go on Letterman and say they were his adopted sons.
Marc:It's a crazy moment where Letterman's just stuck with them out in the studio.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And trying to have a guest conversation.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:And then...
Marc:And you were backstage for that?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then, like, now, the Elvis bit must have been planned, right?
Marc:Was that that show?
Marc:Yeah, where one of the kids says, like, he did Elvis or something.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because, and then he chose to come out with the bad wig and the jacket that's not Elvis.
Marc:And do it badly.
Marc:And just do Elvis in that jacket.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do it badly.
Guest:Yeah, that was like he told one of the kids to say that.
Marc:Yeah, and at what point, I mean...
Marc:I just, I'm trying to figure out what public perception was of him at that time.
Guest:It was pretty bad.
Marc:Because he'd been thrown out of SNL.
Guest:And he'd done all the wrestling.
Marc:That was already done, the wrestling was all done.
Guest:Yeah, he'd done all the wrestling women.
Guest:He was still wrestling in Memphis.
Guest:No one knew he was doing the wrestling in Memphis because if you think about it, cable wasn't big at that time.
Marc:And wrestling's all over the place.
Guest:Now, but not back then.
Marc:Yeah, it was regional.
Guest:No one knew he was going to Memphis and doing all the wrestling.
Guest:And wrestling guys?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he's just being a wrestler.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's where he pissed off.
Marc:What's his name?
Marc:Lawler.
Marc:Lawler.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That wasn't about the woman.
Marc:That was about him calling out being a heel and calling Lawler out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But after the neck brace thing, after the head, head, the.
Guest:He kept going back because he wanted to get revenge.
Guest:And that's what no one knew about.
Guest:That's what's in I'm from Hollywood is him going back to get revenge on Lawler.
Guest:And he went over and over and over and over again back to Memphis.
Marc:That was the...
Marc:When he hurt his neck, that's when Lauer dropped him.
Guest:Yeah, that was in April 5th of 1982.
Marc:Did he really hurt his neck?
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:Not as bad.
Guest:You know, he didn't need to keep wearing that neck brace until it was like filthy and falling apart.
Marc:But he was committed to the heel.
Guest:He was committed to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And this was his career.
Marc:Was he making money?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:He never cashed.
Guest:They did pay him, but he never cashed a single check.
Marc:From the wrestling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He just went.
Guest:So that's what was going on all through 83, basically, was him going to Memphis and wrestling.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So what do you make of it?
Marc:What do I make of it?
Marc:Because I know that...
Marc:You know, you can say that he was just having a good time, but I don't think he was.
Guest:He was.
Guest:Oh, he absolutely was.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:He wouldn't have done it.
Guest:It was fun.
Guest:He was just having fun.
Marc:So he had no...
Marc:I guess what's hard for me to wrap my brain around was that the element that most people call self-sabotage is when you fuck your career up.
Guest:Right, like he did.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's usually attributed to people that aren't quite aware of it or have no control over that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it seems to me that out of his boredom and anger—
Marc:You're putting that on him.
Marc:Well, no, the taxi.
Guest:Oh, taxi.
Marc:Yeah, that the idea would be to blow it up.
Marc:And he couldn't seem to do it while he was there, even though he tried in so many ways.
Marc:Almost it seems like he was trying to get fired.
Marc:He was defying them.
Marc:Well, there was that one time Tony got fired.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the character was so popular, they couldn't let it go.
Marc:They couldn't let it go, yeah.
Marc:And they just couldn't.
Marc:Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him.
Marc:He was holding them hostage.
Marc:He was, actually.
Guest:Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him.
Marc:He was the most popular person on the show, I think.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:The whole thing is like an art piece, but, you know, he's not going to cop to that.
Guest:But he wasn't doing it.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But, like, when you look at it, when you assess it.
Marc:When we look at it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:When we look at it now.
Marc:The implications of it in terms of show business, in terms of all that stuff.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:He turns it on its head by creating his own reality.
Marc:Completely.
Guest:And then on all the other shows, like on Fridays when he got in the fight with Michael Richards.
Marc:Oh, when he goes and gets the cue cards?
Marc:Yeah, and he throws the water on him.
Guest:And Letterman where he gets slapped.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:And what's the other one he screwed up?
Guest:There was another one.
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:But anyway, yeah.
Guest:And you would think.
Guest:He was doing it on purpose to sabotage his career, but he was just doing wrestling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think for me, that Carnegie Hall concert is the best thing ever.
Marc:Oh, it's amazing, isn't it?
Marc:It's the best thing ever.
Marc:And even in the doc, they don't let on that that woman may or may not have died.
Guest:That was perfect.
Marc:They did it so well.
Marc:But in the doc, that is the one thing that they don't reveal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because Zamuda says, yeah, she died.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She really did die.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, like out of all the things in the dock that they're going to keep a mystery, it's that poor lady on that little riding horse.
Guest:Well, you want to stay true to Andy's.
Marc:A bit, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then he let her come back up with, you know, he put on the Indian feathers and came out, and she came back to life.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, so I guess, did the woman really die?
Marc:No.
Marc:Not on stage.
Marc:No.
Guest:It was all a bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, so now he's just doing the wrestling.
Marc:You're not going to Memphis with him?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I always went.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And what was the vibe?
Marc:They just hated him?
Guest:They hated him.
Guest:In fact, he would...
Guest:He would stay in his dressing room until everyone was gone, and I would have to go out and make sure Lawler had left, for one thing.
Guest:I'd have to see Lawler get in his car and drive away before Andy would come out of his dressing room.
Marc:Because he was afraid of him?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you get the sense that Lawler would really...
Marc:Beat him up?
Guest:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:He was a pro, right?
Guest:Andy was just, you know.
Marc:Doing his thing.
Guest:Doing his thing.
Marc:Being dramatic.
Guest:Being dramatic.
Marc:So what's the arc of it?
Marc:How long does that go on for?
Guest:It goes on until Andy got cancer at the end of 83.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:You know, he kept going back, going back.
Guest:In fact, yeah, there's some video when he's coughing, you know, and I'm like, oh, my God, you can see him coughing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And does he see the doctor down there?
Marc:No, L.A.
Guest:in December, 83.
Marc:Because the cough had gotten too much?
Guest:Yeah, he went in for his cough to see why he was coughing all the time.
Marc:So sad.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And then he got cancer.
Guest:And then what he wanted to do was go on Letterman and say he got cancer for Christmas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that didn't happen?
Guest:I don't know why that didn't happen.
Guest:He even got a phone line put in his apartment and had his name on it in the phone book so people could call him.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because he was going to go on Letterman and announce his phone number and say he got cancer for Christmas.
Yeah.
Marc:And then see what the calls came in?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I wonder what that was.
Marc:What do you make of that?
Marc:He wanted some love?
Guest:No, it was just fun.
Marc:Oh, come on.
Guest:I swear to God, it was just, I mean, he didn't think these through like everyone else does.
Marc:He just thought it would be cool.
Marc:I know, but we can read them now.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Some of them.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And that seems like.
Marc:Seems like it, doesn't it?
Marc:That he wanted some sort of caring.
Guest:He just thought it would be funny to announce his phone number on David Letterman and then have it actually be a real phone that you could call.
Marc:And then just deal with it?
Guest:Yeah, well, he had a machine hooked up to it.
Guest:I don't know if he was ever actually going to answer it.
Guest:Yeah, he got one call that someone actually found his number and called.
Marc:Just out of curiosity?
Guest:Just out of curiosity, yeah.
Marc:But what do you, like, in the relationship, I know that in the doc, it says he has a couple of women saying that he was not.
Marc:What's also interesting is, you know, some of the women that have known him his whole life's reaction to the wrestling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There was a line that he crossed with a lot of people.
Guest:Including his family.
Guest:They hated it.
Marc:They did?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They hated it.
Guest:They wanted the nice, they wanted nice Andy.
Right.
Guest:You know, they wanted foreign men.
Guest:They were not happy with all the wrestling and all the stuff he was doing.
Marc:I like that they found a real foreign man.
Guest:Isn't that amazing?
Marc:Is that from old footage?
Marc:No, it's brand new.
Marc:Because some of it is kind of old, obviously, but some of it's new.
Marc:Like Steve Martin was new.
Guest:Martin's new.
Guest:Danny DeVito.
Marc:Yep.
Guest:Me, of course, and his friends.
Guest:But, you know, like— Is Robin Williams in it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's all from Comic Relief Archives.
Marc:Oh, it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you know, you do have this desire somehow to—
Marc:Interpret and pathologize.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Right?
Marc:People do.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:That's why Andy and I got along so well because I didn't.
Marc:It doesn't matter in the big picture.
Marc:But in order to critically sort of assess his legacy, it's fun to.
Guest:And he would love that people are doing that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:He would love it.
Marc:I'm sure there have been books written or essays written or the implications of the wrestling period.
Marc:You would hope.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You would hope.
Marc:personal relationships, there was a couple of women saying that he just was not capable of any sort of intimacy.
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:Not even with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he wasn't, he, he would do it like I would go over and make him put his arm around me and I'd lean on him.
Guest:He'd go there, there.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like he was, he was pretending.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because, like, you know, as somebody who has my own issues with intimacy, I just like trying to track where that comes from is kind of interesting.
Guest:Yeah, that is interesting.
Marc:And I have to assume it's still that injury from the grandfather.
Marc:How could he trust anybody?
Guest:That and, yeah, and his dad, I think, you know, Bob and I have talked about this.
Guest:His dad was, I think he probably had PTSD from World War II, and he yelled a lot.
Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's what drove Andy into his room.
Marc:And also, I imagine what drove him to seek the love of the grandfather as much as possible.
Marc:Because to have that relationship with your grandfather is a big deal.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And if your dad's running around yelling all the time, so is chaos.
Marc:And it's frightening.
Guest:And I think that's maybe why he liked wrestling, too, so much is because the bad guys were an act.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't real.
Guest:Whereas in life it was real, but in wrestling it wasn't real.
Marc:You could disarm it and live in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the relationship wasn't particularly intimate in that way where he's able to trust or open his heart that much.
Guest:I would think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what happens after the diagnosis?
Marc:How does the life change?
Guest:Well, God, it happened so fast.
Guest:You know, he was diagnosed in December and he died in May.
Guest:And so it was just going to the doctors.
Guest:They talked him into doing radiation, which he didn't want to do.
Guest:And then some friend of his told him about the faith healers in the Philippines.
Guest:And Andy just went, okay, that sounds good.
Guest:And off we went to the Philippines for six weeks to see the faith healers there.
Marc:Did you get a sense that...
Marc:He wanted it to—he believed it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He believed—he was kind of magical thinking, you know?
Guest:It's like he never thought cancer would kill him.
Guest:He just said, oh, I've got cancer now.
Marc:I'll have to get rid of it, basically was his— So he couldn't really wrap his brain around dying.
Marc:I guess you have to have some magical thinking at the beginning, at least.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I guess you go through those five stages alive—
Guest:Really fast.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what the five stages are, but he never got angry.
Marc:Yeah, I think it's denial, anger.
Marc:Yeah, well, denial was definitely, yeah.
Marc:I think it's denial, depression or anger, and then acceptance at some point.
Guest:Yeah, he did accept it towards the end.
Marc:He did?
Guest:Yeah, although he never would say, I'm dying, but I think he knew he was dying.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And because I saw that footage in the doc where he went to the improv with the Mohawk and stuff.
Marc:And it was interesting because even like, you know, Bud Friedman, who's a pretty tough guy, was pretty choked up.
Guest:Oh, Bud loved him.
Guest:And he threw a party after that.
Guest:After that screening.
Guest:And that was the last time he ever saw Andy was at that.
Guest:Because that was like the day or two before we went to the Philippines.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, we were at the party at the improv?
Guest:Yeah, he threw a party for him at the improv, impromptu.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Just said, everyone come to the improv.
Marc:He really loved him, huh?
Guest:Oh, he loved Andy like a son.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was really broken up.
Marc:Yeah, I like that story because Bud was the first guy that saw him at the original improv.
Marc:Yep, yep, yep.
Marc:And knew something was totally unique about the guy.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know how Bud figured out because Andy wouldn't have told him.
Guest:You know, what he was going to do.
Guest:No, at the very beginning, he wouldn't have told him that he was going to do the whole Foreign Man and Elvis and stuff.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And Bud led him on stage.
Marc:Yeah, I think it must have just been like, you know, he believed it.
Marc:And then when it turned into something else, he said, oh, this is something beyond anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That is out happening now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't think that Bud was like, this is going to be a huge success or anything.
Marc:But he knew the guy was touched.
Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what Taxi did for him is he got real big.
Guest:He was on shows before that, but he wasn't well-known.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then he got on Taxi, and he was huge.
Marc:Yeah, and he's doing – I love that the guy who was the inspiration for Foreign Men was apparently because he was – Bajie.
Marc:Yeah, but because he was from another country and couldn't integrate socially, of course that's Andy's only friend.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:In college.
Marc:Those guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah, because that's what Andy was like.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, what's interesting is when the director, whoever was on the camera, and it's a very modern proposition, when the director says, are you mad because he stole that from you?
Yeah.
Marc:Because that's such a thing with people.
Marc:Like, oh, he took my act.
Marc:He took me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the guy's like, no, no, it's my gift.
Marc:Aw, isn't that sweet?
Marc:It is.
Marc:It was my gift.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was beautiful because it goes against everything in capitalist culture that bitter people accuse people of.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Anyone else would have been suing Andy for stealing his persona.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that guy was like, you know, he's my friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he had a few friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not many.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Greg Sutton from childhood.
Guest:I mean, Andy was like me.
Guest:We're both the same.
Guest:We're not comfortable with humans, really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who were the guys that hung out towards the end?
Marc:Bob.
Marc:Jisimuta?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the management had enough of him.
Guest:No, George loved him.
Guest:George always loved Andy, no matter what.
Guest:I mean, Andy knew a lot of people, but he didn't hang out with people.
Guest:I mean, he had me.
Guest:And I always say the reason, the only reason that he and I managed to get together, I think, is because Bob was off doing DC Cab.
Guest:He wrote DC Cab and he was in it.
Guest:And so Bob was gone and Andy was like left without a friend.
Guest:And then he met me.
Guest:And I took Bob's place for a while because, you know.
Marc:And over the arc of the sickness, which was quick, did you sense like a change in the way he saw his life?
Guest:No.
Marc:Not really?
Guest:No, not at all.
Marc:He just took it?
Guest:He just accepted it.
Guest:I mean, yeah, he just accepted it.
Guest:I mean, things happen and that's how it goes, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The only thing he was very disappointed, he was very disappointed in, what's his name from Saturday Night Live?
Guest:Not Lorne Michaels, the other guy, the original guy.
Marc:Oh, Ebersole.
Guest:Ebersole, because he felt that he betrayed him.
Guest:When they kicked him off, they did the vote.
Guest:And Andy and Ebersole figured he'd be kicked off as a joke.
Guest:But then Andy was supposed to come back, you know?
Guest:He was supposed to come back in disguise.
Guest:Like, ha, ha, ha, I snuck back in.
Guest:But Ebersole didn't let him back on.
Marc:So...
Guest:So he was really hurt by that.
Marc:So there was an agreement in the sense that they were still buddies, and then he kept them off?
Guest:It was all supposed to be an act.
Guest:He'd get kicked off, and then he'd sneak back on.
Guest:And then Ebersole betrayed him, and he really felt betrayed.
Guest:I mean, that was the one.
Guest:He was hurt.
Guest:And he was also hurt by the meditation movement because they wanted to kick him out because of the wrestling.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They wouldn't let him come on the courses.
Guest:He used to love to go on the courses they have, and they wouldn't let him.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because I know they mentioned that, and they didn't go too deep into it.
Marc:But he was very active within the TM community.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not as much in later years, but he would go to the courses.
Guest:And then he signed up for one and they wouldn't let him do it.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, and he was really hurt by that because TM was his life.
Marc:Twice a day?
Guest:Twice a day.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:No matter what?
Guest:No matter what.
Guest:And he had a long he had a long meditation and he'd fall asleep.
Guest:And if he fell asleep, he'd start over.
Guest:So he'd be like meditating for like three, four hours.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So he really got out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No matter what, if we were in New York Times Square, we'd go to a movie theater.
Guest:So he could meditate or he'd get a hotel room so he could meditate.
Marc:Never missed it.
Marc:My late girlfriend was like that.
Marc:She was locked into that.
Marc:And no matter what, if she were on set, she would just go do the 20 minutes.
Guest:I didn't know she was a meditator.
Marc:Lynn?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was very important.
Marc:She had her special chair.
Marc:And if she was directing, she'd go and do it.
Marc:And I think it really worked for her.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like there was something like, you know, when I'm watching that, because I just got on Medicine for Anxiety after decades.
Guest:I've been on it since 2006.
Marc:What do you want?
Guest:Paxil.
Marc:Oh, this one's like a different one.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But when I'm watching that, like there's always that part of your brain that wants to make excuses.
Marc:I'm like, you know what, dude, just lock in.
Marc:Just go to the TM thing.
Marc:Let's fucking resolve this thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then minutes later, I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, when you have anxiety, it's a medical condition.
Guest:Well, good.
Marc:I'm working on accepting that.
Guest:I don't think all the meditation in the world can get rid of.
Guest:It's like meditating to get rid of your heart disease.
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:Okay, well, I like that framing.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:Because I always tend to think like it's a reasonable reaction.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's horrible.
Marc:It is horrible.
Guest:I hate anxiety.
Marc:I live it.
Guest:I did too, all my life.
Marc:And it's gone?
Guest:Completely gone, as long as I stay on my... And I've tapered off many times thinking, okay, I'm fine now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Boom, comes right back.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:So I've just accepted it.
Guest:You know, I take a pill.
Guest:Yeah, big deal.
Guest:I take a pill and I'm not miserable anymore.
Guest:So Andy didn't make you anxious?
Guest:Not at all.
Marc:I was having fun.
Marc:Oh, so he was like medicine.
Marc:He was like medicine.
Guest:Yeah, but I couldn't.
Guest:He wanted me to perform with him.
Guest:But because of my anxiety disorder, I couldn't do anything in public at the time.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:What did he want you to do?
Guest:Well, first of all, he wanted me.
Guest:I would say things.
Guest:He'd go, you're funny.
Guest:You should get up there.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I'd, I can't.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:To do stand-up?
Guest:Yeah, he wanted me to just stand up.
Guest:And it's like, no, I can't.
Guest:Or he'd want me like he originally wanted me to help him write his Chicago show.
Guest:And even that, I was too like, me?
Guest:Me?
Guest:You can't, you know?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So he got Elaine Boozler to come in and do it.
Marc:Boozler.
Guest:I was just too anxiety ridden.
Marc:So were you there when he died?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:In the hospital?
Guest:Yep.
Yep.
Guest:I was holding his foot because his family were upholding his hands.
Guest:And so Linda Mitchell and I were at the base of the bed, each holding a foot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And was it peaceful?
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was.
Marc:Were there, you know, last requests?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, he was just tired at the end.
Guest:He was just tired.
Guest:You know, he was just sleeping most of the time.
Marc:So the discussions about his legacy, those happened after he was diagnosed?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And what was it exactly?
Marc:The promises?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, one, like I said, we had started I'm From Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's about his wrestling in Memphis.
Marc:And he won that finish.
Guest:He, I mean, because that was his...
Guest:That was the height of his career as far as he was concerned.
Guest:I mean, that was it, his wrestling.
Marc:This is what he was working towards.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:So he made me promise to finish it.
Guest:And boy, was that hard.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I had to work on it right after he died.
Marc:He died, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was so hard.
Guest:But I finished it.
Guest:And the other thing he made me promise, in front of George Shapiro, he said, George, I want Lynn to get everything I ever did out into the world, you know?
Guest:And he said, promise to help her.
Guest:And then George kind of conveniently forgot that later when I tried to do it.
Marc:What would you try?
Marc:How would you try to do it?
Guest:Well, after I'm from Hollywood, I came to George and I said, OK, now I'm ready to do the rest of this stuff.
Marc:Which in your mind, what was that?
Marc:How would you do it?
Guest:Oh, just like find everything he ever did and either put it out as a compilation, maybe do a movie of all of his work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And George just kind of said, well, I helped you do I'm from Hollywood.
Guest:That's enough.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:That was it.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:Well, thank God for YouTube.
Marc:Now.
Guest:Well, then what I did was I took – I used to sell the stuff on –
Guest:DVDs that I just made.
Guest:Put together?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I sold them on eBay because Andy asked me to do it.
Guest:And so I was putting the stuff out there.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:I did two DVDs that I called the Kauffman Archives.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just put clips from all his different shows on them.
Marc:And personal interview pieces?
Guest:No, just shows.
Marc:And did they sell?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, 20 bucks a piece.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You still got some?
Guest:I found a couple, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:They're so cute because I also typed up a thing about all of them and I signed it and I put that inside the DVD case, you know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's very sweet.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's...
Marc:It's interesting that it's taken this long for someone to do a real assessment.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Because there hasn't been a documentary.
Marc:Has there really?
Guest:No.
Guest:There have been – like Bob and I did an A&E biography on him.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And a couple people have just done –
Guest:Little private things that they've put out, but no.
Guest:This is the first one, the first documentary that actually delves into who he was and why he did it, rather than just present his performances.
Guest:It actually delves into...
Marc:Yeah, I was amazed at the connections that the filmmaker made.
Marc:It was pretty smart.
Marc:It was.
Marc:Smart guy.
Marc:That's why he spent so much time with me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He needed to know what you knew because you were there at the height of his career.
Marc:But if you believe, and Andy believed, that the wrestling was really...
Guest:The epitome, the height, the apex of his career.
Marc:So on some level, according to him, that was the most important time.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:And you were there for that.
Marc:But what about the estate?
Marc:I mean, how do people just churn out this material?
Marc:I mean, like, you know, because usually it's protected, right?
Guest:Oh, well, yeah, now it is.
Guest:His father wasn't as...
Guest:Yeah, see, I went through all these years thinking, well, I promised Andy I would do this, and that's why I was putting stuff out, putting stuff out.
Guest:And then his dad died, and his brother took over, and his brother has put the kibosh on everyone doing stuff.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So the family did have the estate, but the father didn't give a shit.
Guest:Yeah, his father didn't.
Guest:didn't see any point so now and back then it wasn't no one was really putting stuff out you know or or maybe not necessarily protecting it or you know or or or didn't see the why anyone would care necessarily exactly that's his kind of back when um Andy had all of his stuff after taxi ended he moved out of his house in the Hollywood Hills yeah and he put all his stuff in storage uh-huh
Guest:And after he died, his dad just called Linda Mitchell, his assistant, and said, get rid of everything.
Guest:So Linda called me and I said, send it to my mom's garage.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I had her send it all to me.
Guest:Yeah, because his dad was just like, get rid of it.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:Well, that's what people do after people die.
Marc:Usually there's a sensitivity to it.
Marc:Somebody goes through it and takes what they hold dear.
Marc:But a lot of it is just sort of like, I don't know.
Guest:Well, his dad still had all the stuff in Andy's childhood room at the house.
Marc:That was all still there.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:I know.
Guest:They just left his room.
Guest:We used to go stay in it when we were there.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Little twin bed.
Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They kept it just intact.
Guest:Well, it was his room, and he would come back and stay there.
Marc:With all the childhood stuff in it?
Guest:Yeah, just all his stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's so wild.
Marc:I thought that was an interesting part of, like, I didn't love the movie.
Marc:You know, the Jim Carrey.
Marc:Man on the Moon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, you know, I like Milos's work.
Marc:I love Milos.
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:And I think Jim Carrey did the best he could.
Marc:But, you know, how are you going to do that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't know Andy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, even if you study him, how are you going to find...
Marc:that vulnerability that he had.
Guest:I said that to the writers who I'm going to see tomorrow.
Guest:We've stayed friends that there's nothing cinematic about Andy's life other apart from his work.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like I said, I don't know what you're going to write about because he was not cinematic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He went out of his way not to be cinematic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He kind of became a vacuum.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would call him, I always call him a vessel.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, things went in him and came out of him.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because like there are times I think when you see him where he turns it all off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's – it's a type of vulnerability, but it's almost like a – An act.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's an act, but I think he got –
Marc:I think that there was a real thrill for him in those moments.
Marc:And I'm speculating that, like, when he was on stage not getting laughs on purpose, it's different than him actually being himself, you know, like with Letterman for a minute.
Marc:Because it's still part of the act.
Marc:It's part of the act, but I think the experience of...
Marc:But whoever's watching him or talking to him, having anticipation, and him having moments of like, I'm actually being me, and this is what they're waiting for.
Guest:And see, that's the beauty of it.
Guest:You never know, even if he's being me, if it's real.
Guest:People will ask me, is he dead?
Guest:Is he alive?
Guest:And it doesn't matter what I say, because you never know what's real.
Guest:Still, even now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a few people that still want to hold on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The one thing in the movie that I thought was kind of smart and well shot was there's a moment in the movie.
Guest:Which movie?
Marc:The Man on the Moon.
Guest:Man on the Moon.
Marc:Where the way Milos shot the Philippine stuff.
Guest:Ah.
Marc:Where you sense watching the film that Andy knew this was a performance.
Guest:He didn't.
Marc:But it's in the movie.
Guest:It's in the movie.
Guest:There's a lot in the movie that's not correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he didn't.
Guest:No, he never.
Guest:He never.
Guest:He thought he was healed.
Guest:I mean, he thought, you know, June LeBeau said, okay, you're healed now.
Guest:And Landy said, okay.
Guest:I mean, Andy, he was really savvy and smart, but he had this very naive side too, his childlike naivety.
Marc:And the magical thinking.
Guest:And the magical thinking.
Guest:So he just believed it was all working.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, I mean, I think Foreman went out of his way to suggest that.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And even if it wasn't that Andy knew, you know, the audience.
Marc:Bob and I knew.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it was like it was something Andy would have done.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:In fact, I almost think – he never said it, but going to the Philippines, I was thinking – I always thought that he thought, well, this is the weirdest thing I can do, get cancer and go to the Philippines.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the performative element of – it's not unlike wrestling, any sort of crackpot thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wrestling is just the most honest.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that must have been why –
Marc:That was his major work, is that you're not going to get more honest in wrestling somehow.
Guest:Yeah, exactly, which is funny, isn't it?
Guest:It's a funny dichotomy, like you're totally honest in wrestling.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because everyone knows the game.
Marc:They do now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think that within that world, you know, the characters...
Marc:You know, it's a hard thing to really explain, but it is the most honest entertainment because it's like, that's the bad guy.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That's the good guy.
Guest:But the bad guy might become a good guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, back in the 60s, it was very different.
Guest:People believed it.
Guest:I mean, 60s wrestling was very different.
Guest:But even now, people don't care that it's fake.
Marc:They don't care.
Marc:They're there for the show.
Guest:It's great entertainment.
Marc:Yeah, it's a spectacle of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you think about Andy, what do you miss the most?
Guest:What do I miss the most about Andy?
Guest:You know, really just hanging out and having fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I'm still that way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I still just want to hang out and have fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Go to Disneyland.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I love just.
Marc:Did he go to Disneyland?
Guest:We never went to Disneyland together, but he loved going to amusement parks.
Marc:He did?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:There was an amusement park.
Guest:We went.
Marc:Which part of it?
Guest:He would love to, like, get on a ride.
Guest:And then as the ride was coming to a halt, he'd be crying.
Guest:Like, that was so scary.
Marc:In front of everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:He loved being a kid.
Guest:He loved being a little kid.
Guest:He just wanted to be a little kid.
Marc:And he loved fucking with people.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Well, I love the movie, and it was great to talk to you.
Guest:Oh, I'm so glad you loved it.
Guest:I love it, too.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:It's great to talk to you, too.
Marc:Yeah, I'm glad you're happy with the film.
Guest:Me, too.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Thank You Very Much is now in theaters and available on digital platforms.
Marc:Go to thankyouverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more info.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:Hey folks, for more about Andy Kaufman, we put together a WTF collection for Full Marin listeners that's full of Andy stories from the people who knew him.
Marc:Bob Zamuda, Mary Lou Henner, Carol Kane, Bud Friedman, Danny DeVito, and more.
Guest:Andy would be like sitting in his dressing room eating sushi during the day.
Guest:And you could go in and talk to him and hang out with him without...
Guest:having to worry about becoming part of his art project.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which most of the time you were.
Guest:You know, like there were a couple times that I was in, when I first met and I'd be in the hallway hanging out and he's there and he'd come out of his dressing room and all of a sudden some woman would come in with a package like delivering.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, a UPS person or a postal worker.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would start on her.
Guest:And they go, what are you doing?
Guest:Taking a job away from a man.
Guest:You know, you should be in the kitchen.
Guest:You should be doing blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And then she'd get pissed off at him.
Guest:And then we would all come out.
Guest:I'd be out in the dressing in the hallway for what's going on out here.
Guest:And they would be rolling up their sleeves and wrestling.
Guest:And they would get on the ground and they would wrestle.
Guest:Now, here's the thing about that.
Guest:I didn't think about it until many years later.
Guest:I bought it.
Guest:And everybody else bought it.
Guest:But I suspect that that woman was on the payroll.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's how fucking crazy Andy was.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:She came in, dressed in a uniform.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To put on a show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay, well, maybe I'm a little slow.
Guest:He did the thing really well, and we all bought it.
Guest:Like, what are you doing?
Guest:A little slow took years.
Guest:Took years.
Guest:Yeah, a little slow.
Marc:That's the latest bonus episode available to full Marin subscribers to sign up for the full Marin and get bonus episodes twice a week.
Marc:Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Marc:Screwed up at the end.