Episode 1624 - W. Kamau Bell
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it we're still going we're still happening so many years so many episodes into this thing i'm in a hotel room
Marc:I'm in a weird old kind of it's not musty, but I would say it's complicated.
Marc:It's a strangely complicated hotel here in San Antonio, Texas, right on the Riverwalk.
Marc:I can open up my window, step out onto a balcony and see just parades of tourists just trudging along down the Riverwalk.
Marc:And it's weird to be back in San Antonio.
Marc:I don't feel like I've been here for a while.
Marc:And I've got some memory.
Marc:It's an odd thing when you've been doing comedy as long as I have that every town you go to that you've been to more than once in your life doing comedy over the arc of your comedy career is somewhat of a trauma trigger.
Marc:Because at different points in your life, you have a different set of fears and panic and professionalism.
Marc:And there's definitely some major trauma triggers here in San Antonio, Texas, for me.
Marc:There's a couple of good times.
Marc:I think if you go back in the catalog, I don't remember which episode it was.
Marc:It might be the Lucas Melandes episode.
Marc:We were out in the world, wandering around San Antonio.
Marc:I think we went to the Alamo, and then we ended up at some Conjuto music festival.
Marc:That was one of the better times.
Marc:But really early on, man, they used to have this club here called the River Center Comedy Club.
Marc:And I remember when it opened.
Marc:I can't even put a year on it.
Marc:It must be...
Marc:mid 90s i don't know but when they opened it everything was high end man it was like this is a hot new club and we got you a hot new modern condo to stay in and it was just the best and then years later i went back and no one was coming to the club anymore and the condo was garbage it wasn't even the same condo comedy condos are someone should do a documentary about that experience the
Marc:Because once a condo has been around for a while and enough monsters and comics and weirdos have come through over the years, you might not want to sit on that leather couch.
Marc:Certainly you don't want to open anything in the refrigerator.
Marc:And what the fuck?
Marc:When was the last time those blankets were cleaned?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's all your dirty peers that are coming into that joint.
Marc:So that makes it even more disturbing.
Marc:But...
Marc:But I remember one time doing the River Center Comedy Club here in San Antonio, and the place was huge.
Marc:It was like the size of a...
Marc:of like an airplane hangar in my memory.
Marc:And I drew like 15 people spread out in a room that's seated like 400.
Marc:And you don't forget that kind of stuff.
Marc:I don't know where you catalog it or where you repress it to, but not a great feeling just waiting and realizing, well, this is it.
Marc:This is going to be the number of people that I'm going to perform for tonight in this large place.
Marc:And there's no way it's not going to be fucking pathetic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I remember it was in the mall.
Marc:It was in the river center mall.
Marc:And one time I saw that kid who was the, it was the weirdest thing.
Marc:Cause I, I've never met the guy.
Marc:Um, and I, you know, I've always wanted to ask him, um,
Marc:You know, it was the guy from from E.T., Henry Thomas.
Marc:It was here in San Antonio.
Marc:It was at the mall.
Marc:It must have been in the mid 90s or the mid to late 90s.
Marc:And he was just like crouched on the side in the mall watching people.
Marc:I do observing.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'd really like to get it verified.
Marc:Because maybe I was just hallucinating.
Marc:Because I'm the guy who thought he saw General Flynn in Glendale on my hike.
Marc:So I wouldn't trust my eyes on this one.
Marc:But I do think it's possible that the guy from E.T.
Marc:was at the River Center Mall at some point in his life.
Marc:Perhaps maybe it was just a character he played in E.T.
Marc:And that's where he went up and came back down and ended up there.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Look...
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to W. Kamau Bell.
Marc:He's been on the show quite a few times.
Marc:He was on pretty regularly, right from the start.
Marc:The first time he was on was episode 46.
Marc:And he was also interviewed for the documentary about me, Are We Good?
Marc:And I'm doing a live conversation with him at South by Southwest this week.
Marc:He's also out on tour now, and he's a smart guy.
Marc:And I thought we'd catch up.
Marc:And also, also tour dates.
Marc:Durham, North Carolina.
Marc:I'll be at the Carolina Theater of Durham on Friday, March 21st.
Marc:Charlotte, North Carolina.
Marc:I'm at the Knight Theater on Saturday, March 22nd.
Marc:And I'll be in Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall on Sunday, March 23rd.
Marc:Then Skokie, Illinois.
Marc:I'm coming to the North Shore Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, March 28th.
Marc:and Juliet, Illinois.
Marc:I'm at the Rialto Square Theater on Saturday, March 29th.
Marc:Then I'm coming to Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York City for my special taping.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all of my dates and links to tickets.
Marc:Do it there.
Marc:Don't go to scalper sites.
Marc:Again, do not search Mark Maron tour tickets, your city, because you will be taken to a number of scalper sites.
Marc:Go to the links at wtfpod.com slash tour, or go to the venues website.
Marc:So you don't get ripped off or wonder why I'm charging so much money for tickets because I don't really.
Marc:I still think I'm on the lower end of that spectrum of ticket price.
Marc:I will tell you right now, and I mean it, Houston is my favorite city in Texas.
Marc:I can't exactly explain why, but there's something about the vibe in Houston that I like, the way the city is laid out in the surrounding areas of downtown.
Marc:But also, at some point in time, someone with a lot of money put a lot of it into art and into making great museums, into a lot of public art.
Marc:And it was just, every time I go there, I'm like, this is like...
Marc:This is like a well-rounded city.
Marc:It's huge.
Marc:I think it's one of the most diverse cities, certainly in Texas, but maybe in the country.
Marc:You can get all kinds of great food there, Indian food, Asian food, Middle Eastern food.
Marc:It's just a very densely populated and very diverse city.
Marc:But the art, the art always gets me, man.
Marc:And I always go back.
Marc:When I'm there to the Rothko Chapel, which is a very special place.
Marc:It was something that Mark Rothko did.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I wish I had the brochure in front of me or the information, but he was contracted or was in alignment with this non-denominational place.
Marc:group who built this chapel that he had done.
Marc:There's probably about 10 huge Rothko paintings in there, huge panels that are basically surrounding you in this small chapel that is almost a place for meditation.
Marc:And I'd read about it years ago, and I know that there was a problem with it earlier on where because of the quality of paints he used, they were starting to fade.
Marc:But all the paintings have been restored.
Marc:And the last time I was there,
Marc:it was just mind blowing for me because I'm a huge Rothko guy.
Marc:Nobody got right up against the big empty like Rothko.
Marc:And his abstractions for me are the, they're the real portal into true abstraction, into true sort of like a kind of mind altering experience with pure painting.
Marc:And the first time I went to the Rothko Chapel, I was kind of stunned and a bit overwhelmed.
Marc:And this time I went back and it was really a different experience.
Marc:I took Blair there.
Marc:She had not been there.
Marc:And we sat with the paintings for quite a while, probably 20 minutes, half hour.
Marc:And you could just spend the whole day in there, really, because as you sit there, something seems to happen with your brain in the paintings.
Marc:At first, you go in, and they're not quite defined in any way because they all are very dark, and some of them almost appear to be one color.
Marc:But there is some geometric elements in a couple of the panels.
Marc:But you have to sit there for a while until they kind of come into focus and start doing their magic of transporting you to a place just outside of regular consciousness and maybe pretty far outside regular consciousness or normal consciousness or your consciousness.
Marc:depending on what you let your brain do with them.
Marc:But there was something about this time that I had not done last time is that, you know, I know Rothko was a depressive.
Marc:I know he's a heavy cat.
Marc:You got to be pretty heavy to have the confidence and skill set to do the type of painting he did.
Marc:But I started to realize this time that I visited the chapel that these were very dark.
Marc:And the place it takes you is not...
Marc:it's a spiritual space and i wouldn't say that you're kind of looking into the abyss but it's close there is something about the the tone of the work where it it does take you out of yourself and into a a kind of transcendent zone but i started to realize like i don't know if this is
Marc:spiritual light.
Marc:Like, I don't know if we're heading into the light.
Marc:I think he's creating a space at the edge of darkness and it's not a uplifting space.
Marc:It is maybe a meditative space, but then I realized like he committed suicide and I was curious this time, but these were some of the last paintings he did before he just, uh,
Marc:crumbled and i'm like i don't know if this is if you look at it that way if you frame it contextually historically in relation to mark rothko if this is really an uplifting experience i think these are uh these panels are not necessarily a cry for help but certainly a hello to the darkness so my experience there though spiritual was uh i wouldn't say uplifting if you know what i'm saying
Marc:Also in Houston, I reached out to Mo Ammer.
Marc:Mo Ammer, who I had on recently, he's got the show Mo, Palestinian American comic, lives in Houston.
Marc:And what a great guy.
Marc:Mo Ammer, there's something about people that were brought up in a close-knit community close to their family where they just have a certain, you know, they put a premium on hospitality and also just being decent people.
Marc:I mean, Mo showed up at my house with a bottle of,
Marc:Palestinian olive oil that is really the best olive oil I've ever had in my life.
Marc:He brought a gift, which is so nice.
Marc:And I've noticed this from certain ethnic groups that people are part of who have come on my show, Koreans, Egyptians,
Marc:They bring gifts.
Marc:And it's something that I'm not good at.
Marc:And it's something you should do.
Marc:Like if you show up at someone's house, you know, if you're invited somewhere, you should bring a little something.
Marc:I guess it's common knowledge.
Marc:I don't always register it.
Marc:And I always, you know, a lot of times I make excuses.
Marc:Like, for instance, I texted Mo in Houston and he's like, he had things to do, man.
Marc:I mean, him and his wife were going to go out and celebrate her birthday that night.
Marc:And I was only in town for one day.
Marc:And he was and I just I just texted him to ask him for some food racks, you know, an Indian restaurant, maybe a Middle Eastern restaurant.
Marc:And Mo just texted back, like, come over, come over.
Marc:We'll make some falafel.
Marc:You'll hang out.
Marc:You'll meet.
Marc:You can meet my wife and my son.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, man, I'm going to do that.
Marc:I'm coming over.
Marc:And I went over there and I brought nothing because I didn't have any time.
Marc:But I feel bad about it now because his wife made these amazing falafels from Mo's mom's recipe or his grandmother's recipe.
Marc:Best falafel I ever had.
Marc:They got a beautiful garden.
Marc:There was vegetables from the garden.
Marc:They whipped up some tahini sauce.
Marc:And we just sat and talked and laughed, told some comic stories.
Marc:He showed me around the garden, around the house.
Marc:I met his young son and his wife was just amazing.
Marc:And they, and they were going out in a couple hours.
Marc:I just couldn't believe the hospitality of it.
Marc:And it was so warm and it definitely made me feel connected, not just to my community, but to a city and to comedy and to, you know, friends.
Marc:I, I just can't speak highly enough about being human and treating other humans with respect and, uh, love and, uh,
Marc:you know, just, I don't know, man.
Marc:Uh, I've been really kind of hung up on this lately and just getting out in the world with, uh, with the people and talking to people and spending time with your friends in real time, uh, having real conversations and eating good food and just, uh, you know, focus on that.
Marc:Stay in touch with your humanity.
Marc:Will you?
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Kamau Bell and
Marc:is, as I said, he's a regular guest on this show.
Marc:If there are regular guests, he's one of them.
Marc:And he's touring right now.
Marc:He'll be in San Diego this Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at Mic Drop Comedy.
Marc:You can go to wkamaubell.com for the rest of his tour dates and locations.
Marc:And I'll be doing a conversation with him at South by Southwest on Wednesday at 4 p.m.
Marc:at the Austin Convention Center.
Marc:And it was good to catch up with Kamau.
Marc:And you can listen to that now.
music plays
Marc:The fact that we don't do video.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's a different game.
Marc:But oddly, we've noticed that some people are coming back around to audio.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So we're part of the new analog craze.
Guest:Which makes sense for you.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'll take it.
Guest:You're the vinyl of podcasting.
Marc:I'll take it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's fine with me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I never wanted to be at the... I didn't want to be in the Gladiator Arena.
Marc:I'm fine on the second stage.
Marc:No, for sure.
Guest:And I see you're doing things where you put photos in and stuff.
Guest:Oh, what?
Guest:It's like when you promote the thing, you put like...
Marc:Oh, sometimes on Instagram when they do that.
Guest:Yeah, that's a guy.
Guest:I know it's not you on your phone like, let me find a good picture of Conan O'Brien as a baby.
Guest:Yeah, I can't do that shit.
Guest:No, you shouldn't.
Marc:It takes too much time, and I don't know how to use time anyways.
Marc:I mean, the weird thing that people don't realize about self-employment is that you never stop, and it's impossible.
Marc:I mean, but you got a bunch of kids, so I mean, they demand attention.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I imagine it's a tough choice between the phone and the kid, but I usually go with the kid, I imagine.
Guest:Well, no, one of the saddest things I can hear from my kid is, Dada, can you put the phone down?
Guest:And I'd like to say I've never heard that, but I've heard that.
Guest:Can you look at me?
Guest:Can you look at me?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:He says that?
Guest:It's been, it's been.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:On occasion, you know, big news story breaks and you're like, whoa, I got to keep up with this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I'll be right there.
Guest:But that's a good question, though.
Guest:Do we have to keep up with it?
Guest:No, no, we don't have to.
Guest:So I feel compelled.
Guest:I guess my wife says it all the time.
Guest:I was like, I feel compelled to keep up with.
Marc:No, I do, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and and there is a you know, once you're you've been in the political racket for a while in terms of covering it one way or the other.
Marc:And once you're locked into the narrative and you kind of know the players and you've got a basic sense of how it works, which which I only have a basic sense.
Marc:I couldn't tell you.
Marc:how Congress works in depth.
Guest:Well, it's funny.
Guest:I feel like there's always somebody on TV who's a Congress person who I've never seen before.
Guest:And you're like, I feel like I know who these people are.
Guest:Well, there's a lot of Congress people.
Guest:There's just a lot of them.
Marc:But just in terms of the politics of Congress, the politics of the Senate, the going back and forth, the sort of nuances of the...
Marc:The relationship between the three branches, which is all being disrupted now and probably never going to be the same.
Marc:I don't know that stuff, but I can follow a narrative.
Marc:And the truth of the matter is, is that the depth at which I'm following it, it doesn't matter if I'm seeing it as breaking news.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's not going to come back to you.
Guest:Mark, you missed it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's not going to change my life.
Marc:No.
Marc:Other than whatever I'm going to do with my head, which is not good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, this is it.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of that.
Marc:It's over.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then that just fucks up your day.
Marc:And then your kid's like, you know, you put the phone down.
Marc:He's like, why are you crying?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Or why?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why are you yelling at your phone?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think that I just suffer from the because I'm sort of trying to be, you know, in that instant response thing to keep the algorithm fed that like you feel like I got to get a thing out about a thing that just happened.
Marc:I don't keep that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Again, you've reached a velocity that is in a different.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I just do this on the mic.
Marc:You know, I don't I don't engage with the trolls or on Twitter or, you know, even on Blue Sky.
Marc:It's just because for me, it was it was.
Marc:But there's a futility to it, number one.
Marc:It's relatively self-serving.
Marc:And then the 100 to 200, even to 5,000 replies you get, all you did was make them feel better or pissed off at you.
Marc:But ultimately, in terms of traction or having an impact, the best you can do, I guess, is make people feel better for a second.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Make people feel seen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I know that there is value in that because it's because of the way all this stuff nonsense works is that the more I can be out there sort of like making people feel seen or heard or whatever, then when I go, hey, guys, can you watch this thing that I just made so that my kids can keep eating?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That they go, oh, yeah, he's been around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can you watch this thing for money?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I need you to watch this for money.
Guest:Can you buy tickets to my tour?
Guest:Can you buy tickets?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I've been having some – there was a big shift in my approach to, I think, performing during – in whatever is happening now versus the first Trump administration.
Marc:And in terms of, you know, what's required of me?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, in relation to my audience.
Marc:Because you get to a certain age where you're like, all right, this is my audience.
Marc:You know, for better, for worse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, they're grownups.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're thinking people.
Marc:They're terrified.
Marc:And there is that element of not just feeling seen, but when you do a show, and I imagine you feel the same way, this is a community service.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Guest:People expect more than just the laughs.
Marc:Well, it's not even a matter of expectation.
Marc:They're literally in a room with like-minded people, depending on what your audience is, let's say 500 or more, which never happens, laughing at things that they understand and want to laugh and need relief from.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Because you have to assume that no one's out there doing the civil actions every day.
Marc:They're on their phones or freaking out with their loved ones or freaking out on their phones with other people.
Marc:And all of a sudden, there's 500 to 1,000 of them in a room together.
Marc:And I think that's the important part.
Guest:Yeah, and I think the thing that I feel, especially now, is the responsibility to like, yay, we're all here.
Guest:Let's laugh.
Guest:I have a way of saying things that would make you feel better about things or enlightening you or whatever, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But also then my job is to be like, also, here's some things you need to go do once you leave here.
Guest:Oh, you do that?
Guest:I do that, yeah.
Guest:Do you hand out pamphlets?
Guest:Just QR codes, Mark.
Guest:It's QR codes.
Marc:You hold up a board with a QR code on it.
Guest:I think I'm getting a tattoo just so I can like, yeah, right here.
Marc:This is the link to all the things that you can, the actions that can be taken.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All the things.
Guest:I literally have that in a link tree and have a friend who, yeah, who put it together for me.
Guest:Because I feel like I have to encourage you to do something.
Guest:Like what are those things?
Guest:What's the list?
Marc:Maybe I should have it.
Guest:It's just a list of subjects that if you're interested in, you can always find in your area, immigrant rights organizations always need your help.
Guest:There's an organization called Donor Shoes that I'm on the board of that just supports public schools, and you can just give them $25 and feel like you did something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If you Google mutual aid in your area, you can always find organizations that will just take stuff, that will just take your things.
Guest:And so I feel like those three areas, I feel like are the areas, especially living in California, that are the most impactful immediately and not like maybe go to a protest, maybe, but that's not actually the thing.
Guest:And then figure out what do you do for a living.
Guest:This is what I tell people all the time.
Guest:And figure out what you can do from your job so you don't actually have – it's not always about going somewhere.
Guest:What are you doing at your job?
Marc:But what's – yeah.
Marc:I can understand all those things.
Marc:And those seem to be things that would, you know, help and make people feel like they were doing something.
Marc:And, you know, I don't in terms of protests, they sort of have to be organized.
Marc:And, you know, there is a leadership around and they seem to happen.
Marc:But I guess my concern is as time goes on here is that is that we're we're being terrorized.
Marc:And, you know, in terms of speaking up.
Marc:or making a stand at work.
Marc:I mean, you know, and this is going to happen at all levels of liberal intention, that people are going to be afraid for whatever reason, whether it's physically or that they're going to lose their job.
Guest:But I don't think it's always about like speaking up at work.
Guest:It's also just about there are people at your work who could use your support that you maybe aren't thinking about right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't mean in like a like stand on the table and flip stuff over.
Guest:But like you may work with people who are who are undocumented or status.
Guest:And there may be a way you can go.
Guest:Hey, what do you need?
Guest:What can I do?
Guest:I need a casserole.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like I think that I think that we get too caught up in like the casserole with a passport.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I think we get too caught up in the big giant things and it's like most of it is like, for example, there's all this boycott talk about boycotting Target and boycotting Walmart because they divest it out of DEI.
Guest:They throw all their DEI stuff away.
Guest:And people are like, boycott!
Guest:And people think boycott is just a magical Harry Potter word.
Marc:I'm cynical about it.
Marc:I've been publicly cynical about boycotts.
Guest:Well, I think I've sort of been like, well, if it's a boycott, you know, it has to be organized.
Guest:So, like, I always talk about the Montgomery bus boycott.
Guest:Like, they boycotted the bus systems, but they also made sure people had rides to work and school.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because you can't just say boycott the bus system and leave people like— And also, if you're going to boycott Target and Walmart—
Marc:So what are your options?
Marc:Amazon.
Guest:Well, for a lot of people who live in parts of the country, that's the thing is like, that's the store.
Guest:They killed all the mom and pop stores.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So a lot of black activists are like, we can't just say boycott like it's the same.
Guest:And we can't say boycott without, how do you make sure people get what they need if you don't go to those places?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you got to find some alternative shopping situation.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:And also when you go to stores that aren't those stores, it's hard to get what you want sometimes.
Marc:It's a little more expensive.
Marc:They're always telling you, like, oh, just order it online.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Well, and I think for me, like, it's just like I'm going to try to, like, you know, I'm in the position where, like, I can shop at bookstores in my neighborhood that I'm paying more than I would at Amazon, but it just feels better.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I can do that, but not everybody can do that.
Guest:You know what else you can do?
Guest:What?
Guest:Just ask the publisher for the book.
Guest:.
Marc:You're at that level now.
Guest:Do you know who I am?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You don't even need that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They know who you are.
Guest:I like to say that for like Disneyland and amusement parks.
Marc:Oh, that's where you can use the hookups?
Guest:That's where I use the hookup because that's a lot.
Guest:I get a lot of books.
Guest:I get books sent to me that I'm like.
Marc:I'll buy books.
Marc:You know, I bought that How Fascism Works book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the joke I made about it was I'm about halfway through, but I can just read the news now and get together.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's constantly updated.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:They're adding new chapters.
Guest:I see the second half.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But let's talk about this.
Marc:I know that there was some press lately and I don't know where you what happened or what the follow through was.
Marc:I mean, but you you chose to honor your dates at the Kennedy Center.
Marc:I had one date at the Kennedy Center on February 13th.
Guest:And you did it?
Guest:I did it, yeah.
Guest:And this was after everyone pulled out?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:This is why I think the algorithm is so funny because I have people approaching me now on the street literally saying like, are you going to do that date still?
Guest:I did it two weeks ago.
Guest:So the algorithm has confused people about what the details are.
Guest:Oh, so it hadn't happened yet.
Guest:So the date has happened, but what happened was I was on the flight headed to D.C.
Guest:as Trump announced he was taking it over.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So it was like nobody had pulled out because it had just happened.
Guest:But you were able to speak about it.
Guest:Yeah, so I was like, the Kennedy Center reached out to me because they were like, they would have understood if I was canceling.
Guest:But the whole premise of Trump saying, I don't want woke stuff in there, I was like, well, then he doesn't want me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I'm going to go be as woke as I can be.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To me, that felt like there's different ways to do this.
Guest:There's the way of like, I don't want to give you my services.
Guest:Or there's a way of like, I'm going to go in there and be the thing you don't want me to be in the space you don't want me to be at.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So I did that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it hadn't really set in yet.
Marc:It wasn't a revolutionary act relative to things that had already unfolded.
Guest:No.
Guest:So when I was headed there, Shonda Rhimes had pulled out Ben Folds.
Guest:And they're on the board.
Guest:They didn't have dates there.
Guest:And then Issa Rae had an event that was sold out that was later in March and she canceled.
Guest:And so when Issa Rae canceled, there was a little bit of people coming up like, why aren't you supporting?
Guest:Issa Rae canceled.
Marc:Yeah, but I like, you know, when I read about your take on it, it seems to me that the thing would be to go into those spaces.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And and do your thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then if they pull you off stage, then you've done some sort of act of not not even civil disobedience, but protest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Against the dominating cultural ideology.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's a sense of like, I was like, I'm going to go and they're going to have to lock me out.
Guest:And if they don't lock me out, then I'm going to really make sure I do that.
Guest:I really sort of pay it to like sort of like channel the spirits of Lenny Bruce and Dick Gregory and do it the way that I. And there's also like there's 1500 people who came to the thing who live in D.C.
Guest:who are being like who are experiencing violence.
Guest:Whatever we're experiencing about D.C., they're on the front lines of it.
Guest:Sure, trauma every day.
Guest:And the people who work there are the same.
Guest:They needed a show.
Guest:They needed what I do, and I'm not trying to make it a big deal.
Marc:Well, that's the interesting thing, man, is that people do need it because—
Marc:You know, there's not a ton of... I just don't think that monologue jokes, by and large, are enough to kind of take the air out of this thing in a show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Like, I have found that going up there and saying, look, you know, at least spend 15 minutes saying, look, I'm in the same place you are mentally.
Marc:I'm experiencing the same powerlessness and hopelessness and fear.
Marc:This is my reaction to it, which generally is funny.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And, you know, I've got a couple of bits.
Marc:And then the shift in my presentation as a comic has become like now I'm going to entertain.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I've never really been that guy.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But, like, I've really kind of focused on, like, we'll get this out of the way.
Marc:We're all on the same page.
Marc:And now, like, I've got some entertaining things to do.
Marc:I never looked at myself as an entertainer.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't think that—
Marc:I necessarily changed my material, but I tell a 20-minute story about evacuating with my cat.
Marc:So that's pretty funny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I think, for me, that night, and I didn't know what the plan was.
Guest:I'm writing backstage trying to think of, maybe say this, because there's all this stuff that's happening.
Guest:And then later, as it was written up, the first 20 minutes was basically just like, hey, guys, we're here.
Guest:The Kennedy Center, give it up for the people in the back.
Guest:I made jokes about, I say, after United States, I say, thank you for your service to everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like not just military people.
Guest:So thank you for your service if you're working here right now.
Guest:And there had been a protest out front, a dance protest of drag queens.
Guest:And I went out there and hung out with them.
Guest:And I gave it up for them.
Guest:And sort of like just said, we're here in this now doing this.
Guest:And had jokes, but some of them were just sort of at that point just ill-formed statements.
Guest:But it made everybody sort of like settle and realize that I'm in this with you.
Guest:And now I'm going to tell you about my kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and then.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:Now I'll do the bits.
Guest:Now I'll do the thing that I came here to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was a little bit afraid that people would be like, get back to how democracy is falling.
Guest:But they actually want to hear about the kids.
Guest:They don't want to just stay in that place.
Marc:Well, yeah, they want to know that you're on board.
Marc:But like, you know, that sort of thing.
Marc:I wonder about that too, man.
Marc:You know, because after doing Air America and kind of plowing through the first Trump era, that when you're a public person who they assume has a voice.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And I tried to keep my politics pretty personal in the sense that I will speak up against fascism because we're living in it.
Marc:And we've almost been in it many times.
Marc:And now it's here.
Marc:But I'm not going to sit there and deconstruct the fucking news.
Marc:I'd rather put a gun in my mouth.
Guest:You're not more solid with the newspaper?
Marc:Well, no, I mean, you can do that, but like what newspaper?
Marc:You know, like, I mean, it's not even that.
Marc:It's just that, you know, with somebody who has a microphone that, you know, it's a different show and different set of chops to be into the news cycle every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what are you then?
Marc:Because I know you can get into a certain mania with that stuff to where you're not even humanizing it.
Guest:No, and I think that for me, this is where I sort of had this idea of, like, I'm not actually, like, these are the parts of it I care about and have jokes for.
Guest:I'm just going to go through the news with you.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Because I don't think I have takes that are, like, somehow, like, here's where, I don't have, like, takes like that.
Marc:I mean, we don't have time, you know, even if you're touring a lot to go, like, did you guys see Jim Jordan today?
Yeah.
Guest:Unless something really funny happened with Jim Jordan.
Marc:Yeah, maybe half the crowd side.
Marc:That's the other thing that like, you know, all these people that are, and I talk about this with my producer a lot, that are still sort of speaking about this as if it's a presidency.
Marc:Yes, yeah.
Marc:It's sort of like, when are you guys going to?
Guest:Yeah, that's my main thing.
Guest:Wake the fuck up.
Guest:That's my main thing to be like, you know, after the Elon Musk Nazi salute, I'm like, okay, if we can't be clear about this, we're doomed.
Marc:Yeah, you're sitting there going like, you know, you're going to be like Bill Maher.
Marc:It's like, well, I'm going to agree with some of the things that Trump is doing.
Marc:It's like, dude, you're a bitch.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, Kid Rock.
Marc:I like Kid Rock.
Marc:Yeah, I like that one song.
Marc:Yeah, and now you're going to blow him?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With a slightly disdainful look on your face?
Guest:And that's who you are?
Guest:There's a whole generation of comedians who have been confused about the fact that they're smart for comedians and thinking that means that they're smart generally.
Guest:And I think that, like, there's just a whole bunch of comedians who have been sort of, like, heralded for their hot takes and political, and they're not, they're just, yeah, for a comedian, you're doing a good job, but you're not doing a good job for a person who thinks about this stuff.
Marc:Right, but, you know, there's this spectrum of comedian, like, comedians serve this or that.
Marc:But, like, you know, early on, I think you responded to that post I did about, again, you know, if you're a useful idiot.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it's like, you gotta own that.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Marc:And either you know you are and you're in it for the grift.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or you don't.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or you just believe that shit, which is fine.
Marc:But even believing that shit at this point, it's like, well, this is fundamentally anti-democratic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I'm working on this bit about how like these bold freedom of speech warriors who have now finally got the right to speak power to truth.
Yeah.
Marc:What courageous freedom of speech warriors.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Perhaps they can make truth just run away.
Guest:I believe the winners are correct.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So that's, yeah.
Guest:And I would be, I was so, you know, the whole Rogan's fear of comedians under him who were like proud to show up and sit at the inauguration and like, dude, you've just been bought and I don't think you even sold yourself for that much.
Marc:Well, I don't—yeah, it's very hard for me to understand it, you know, with, like, first of all, with sociopaths, I talked about this with Brendan, that, you know, I'm like, do they believe it or do they know it's a grift?
Marc:And he said sociopaths believe what they're saying, you know, which is disturbing.
Marc:I'd rather them be just, you know, pitchmen.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Or else they know politics enough to know what they're angling for, even if it's about money.
Marc:But, you know, but some of these comics—
Marc:The guys that are apparatchiks, there's only like three or four of them, but there is a bunch of people beneath them who use their juice for their audience.
Marc:Now, for me, it's sort of like I couldn't even imagine performing for that audience.
Marc:I could do it.
Marc:I've done it before.
Marc:I go out into the regular rooms.
Marc:But I assume that they all think I'm some sort of woke fuck, which I am mostly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But you're also – nobody can question your comedy bona fides either.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:But, like, I don't necessarily – even if I feel like, you know, well, fuck it.
Marc:I'm going to see it as a challenge and I'm going to make these animals laugh.
Marc:It's like, what's the victory there?
Guest:That's my whole point.
Guest:That's my whole point.
Guest:I, like –
Guest:In my return to comedy at this point, like, I didn't do it for five years.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:I was out for five years.
Guest:Five years?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, like, when COVID hit, I thought, maybe I'm really out.
Guest:Because I was, like, I'd been out for a couple years at that point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I started doing, like, documentary.
Guest:Well, I remember the documentary, the Cosby documentary.
Guest:Then you had this scene.
Guest:an end show right yeah yeah so I was like working yeah and like but just but when and so when I was home I'd be like I don't go out and do stand-up because I'm not home that often anyway and so I thought I was retired but then when I came back part of what sort of like I had to wrestle with was like I don't want to go to the punchline on Sunday nights and stand in the back like I don't want to like do it that way why would you have to do it that way
Guest:Because that's what I think.
Guest:Comedy, you have to go to the club.
Guest:No, I know.
Marc:But why would you stand in the back?
Marc:You could get your spot.
Guest:No, but you know what I mean.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I didn't want to do it.
Guest:I didn't want to leave my house.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:For the 15 minutes.
Guest:For the 15 minutes.
Guest:And you spent all the time.
Guest:I think I'm glad I did that.
Guest:But I just was like, then I had to go, well, you're not doing that.
Guest:But now I'm, what, 50 or 45?
Guest:Yeah, 50, 52.
Guest:And I want to be, if I'm out of my house, I want to be really productive.
Guest:I don't want to be hanging out.
Guest:So I had to sort of decide, like, it's okay to not do it that way.
Guest:And so I just started booking, like, this, an hour.
Guest:The Berkeley rep had, like, a small 60-seat theater.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I used to do.
Guest:to do with dynasty yeah you want to put together the hour and so i would do i do like an eight week residency yeah yeah yep eight week pregnancy i didn't even make money i just wanted to like have a place to go yeah and then i that went okay and then i went back and did two shows on saturday and it was four and seven because i'm because i'm civilized yeah and like that's where i sort of got the hour back was like okay because i was doing it my way i wasn't like i still haven't like gone to the club to do a small set i just like i just it's not for me you know well i do that for very specific reasons
Guest:Yeah, well, you're, like, you're, again, you've done all the, like, you've done that work, you know?
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, that's why I do it, is it's like keeping shape.
Marc:You know, like, I can go out and do my hour and a half or whatever with my people, but I want to go hammer it out with the general public.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To get my rep.
Marc:So when I do go out to my people, I'm like, I'm sharp.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:I think I feel the opposite.
Guest:I'm like, let me go mess around with my people and then I'll get it sharper there for the general public.
Guest:Like I will sort of like, I'll do all the exploring here and then I'll be like, oh, that piece can work for the general public.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And maybe not.
Guest:And that's why I have nine jobs.
Guest:That's why I have not put all my chips on stand-up comedy.
Marc:It's weird to take – and I recall this from the first Trump administration when you're doing general crowds.
Marc:Whether it's in your head or not, it takes another set of balls.
Marc:To fucking plow through some of that stuff.
Guest:Well, I'm playing, the next club I'm playing, I'm doing mostly theaters, but about to do a regular weekend at a club in San Diego, the Mic Drop Comedy Club.
Guest:I don't even know what that is.
Guest:Yeah, no, I didn't know what it is either.
Guest:But I was like, that's a regular club with a Friday night second show, and it's 10 o'clock, and it's San Diego.
Guest:And it's just like, I'm going to find out some things.
Guest:You're going to do the hour?
Guest:I'm going to do the hour.
Guest:Maybe I'll do the 45 minutes.
Guest:Maybe that's when I bust out some of the old stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You guys remember Taco Bell with the little dog?
Guest:Yeah, that dog.
Guest:That was kind of racist.
Guest:So I'm actually more nervous about that than I was at the Kennedy Center.
Guest:Of course you are.
Marc:It's like the trenches.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, when I'm working on an hour, there's some markets I don't do theaters in.
Marc:And there's a couple markets that I shouldn't be now, but I'm doing it.
Marc:But I'd go do all the clubs.
Marc:And that kind of two shows Friday, two shows Saturday, show Thursday.
Marc:You know, that second show Saturday where I get kind of like—
Marc:Yeah, you get loose and a little weird.
Marc:Yeah, but there's still a thrill to that.
Guest:No, I think, you know, I came up in that world, but I think for me, I wouldn't have been able to build up.
Guest:I wouldn't have been able to, if I was just going out and doing showcases.
Guest:You couldn't build the hour.
Guest:I couldn't build the hour.
Guest:Yeah, because you can't do it in pieces.
Guest:No, and you can't sort of like, I know I'm lost here, but I got to be lost to find out where I'm trying to get to.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I find that a lot of times you do the hour and you're, you know, outside of being older, you basically, you run in the same circles, you know, in terms of your thought.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're kind of restating things you've said before with today's spin.
Guest:Yeah, well, that's the great thing about having taken such a break is that I have a lot of stories that have happened in the last five years.
Guest:So I don't feel like I'm, like, scraping the barrel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With three kids, you're, you know, and how old is the oldest?
Marc:13.
Marc:Oh, so you got stories for another 10 years.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's about to go to high school.
Guest:So it's just getting started.
Guest:The good bits are on their way.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's all going to happen.
Marc:Who is this guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Get your angle on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got my angle on that.
Guest:I got to tell her when she was 12, she told me something that one of the boys in her class had done that was stupid, and I was like, hey, from the ages of 12 to 30, boys are just trash, and so you should just know that.
Guest:And then I told other people, and other women were like, it's older than 30.
Guest:I was like, yeah, I know, but I didn't want to bum her out.
Guest:For always.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Maybe they will always be trash.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like...
Marc:I mean, who the fuck is the Kennedy Center going to book?
Marc:How many times could they book Tim Allen and Kid Rock?
Marc:That's the question.
Marc:And the people who work there— Or does he even care if it stands empty?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:No, they definitely believe—I know from people who are there that they have been called to by the people who are running it.
Guest:Like, they want more Christian acts and more country acts.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is funny because it's like, I know it's the Kennedy Center to you, but it's actually really just a venue in D.C.,
Guest:No, of course.
Guest:And D.C.
Guest:is not, you know, if you want to move the Kennedy Center to Branson, Missouri, you can do that.
Guest:But D.C.
Guest:is a place where there are more drag queens that are probably going to perform there in a year than country music acts.
Guest:And not that they don't do country music.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The Christian acts, it's interesting.
Marc:I guess people have been telling me there's these rock stations that fool you.
Marc:You're like, what is this song?
Marc:And all of a sudden it's a worship song.
Guest:It's often like you when when you were like, why are they saying you like that?
Guest:I love you.
Guest:Like, it's very like not just a girl.
Guest:It's not a girl at all.
Guest:It's not a girl at all.
Guest:It's it's it's the big it's the big you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Capital.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The value.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thou.
Guest:The holy thou.
Guest:But yeah, like Rihanna Giddens canceled.
Guest:And I get it.
Guest:Like if you're I think a comic is in a unique position where you can speak directly to what's going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where if you're a musician, you can, but it's not really what you do.
Guest:And especially if you're a comic like us, you can literally go, I'm just going to talk and we'll get to the jokes later.
Guest:And so I think that I was in a unique position, but people want to put you on one side or the other.
Guest:And I'm like, no, I'm old enough to remember and to have learned.
Guest:Sometimes it was about boycotts and sometimes it was about sit-ins and sometimes it was about spontaneous action.
Guest:It's like it's not just one thing.
Marc:Maybe I have gone off the edge with my cynicism around civil disobedience and protest, but I'm having a hard time sort of fathoming how we can have an impact on this juggernaut other than state politics and working class people who are fed up.
Guest:Well, I think one way, first of all, every time I see a group of white, old white people yelling at their congressmen.
Marc:But that's the only ones who are left to do it.
Marc:Because they grew up with that.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Because they're the last ones to believe.
Guest:They're the ones who always think the system's on their side, even though there's evidence to show them that the time is right.
Marc:But they're also the ones that were at the old protests.
Guest:And at the January 6th.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think the fact that those people are so clearly angry this early about what's going on is a sign of like...
Guest:a sign that things could get better, but we need to invite those people in and not freeze them out.
Guest:Are you talking about conservatives?
Guest:Yeah, I'm talking about conservative.
Marc:I'm talking about regular white folks.
Marc:Okay, I get you.
Marc:Because I thought you were talking about the old hippies that show up.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:They're going to show up.
Guest:I went to that protest a couple weeks ago in Berkeley.
Guest:It's great, but it's not the one that moves the needle.
Guest:The one that moves the needle is these white MAGA-hatted people older who are like, you're fucking my Social Security up.
Marc:Well, I think they just bought into the the the grievance buzz and assume that, you know, he was talking shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or assume that the shit he was talking didn't have an impact on that.
Guest:Well, I think everybody has a thing about like, you're not talking about me.
Guest:If you're saying something bad, you're not talking about me.
Guest:And I think that's what it was.
Guest:And now they realize, no, they were talking.
Guest:He is coming after your not coming after a woke Social Security.
Guest:He's coming after your Social Security.
Marc:Well, if they can figure out how to come after woke Social Security, they will.
Guest:They will.
Guest:But also, they really don't care about those white people.
Guest:And those white people are finding out.
Guest:So for me, the fact that those people have turned so early is a good sign.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And also, they don't care if they die.
Guest:No.
Guest:And there's going to come a point, which we're going to have a number to point to, that's like this many people died because of this thing that they did.
Guest:So if they screw up somebody's Social Security, there's people who will miss one check and die.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, there's already people dying all around the world because of the denial of aid.
Marc:I mean, how is it not going to happen here through Medicare, Social Security, government funding, farm subsidies?
Marc:I mean, people are going to fucking die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I just think that the more we have people like these white MAGA people who realize they're getting screwed over, the more that...
Guest:these, all these Trumpers start to see that like, wait, like you've seen this happen.
Guest:Wait, Elon can do a Nazi salute.
Guest:But if I do it, I get fired.
Guest:The more you start to learn, you're not like them.
Guest:They're not like you.
Guest:And they're not going to help you get your job back when you get fired for trying to be like them.
Marc:I got a good joke on that.
Marc:I think you'll like it.
Marc:I just, I put my, put my hand up with the hell, hell Hitler.
Marc:And I go, this is right wing virtue signaling.
Yeah.
Guest:That's exactly what it is.
Guest:That's exactly what it is.
Guest:That's exactly what it is.
Guest:Steve Bannon did it.
Guest:You can tell he just did it because he's like, I guess we're doing this thing.
Guest:I'm going to throw one in, yeah.
Guest:I guess we're doing this now.
Guest:I'm going to throw one in.
Guest:A little nervous about it.
Guest:Yeah, I don't really feel great about it, but I'm trying to get daddy's attention.
Guest:And also, I'm half responsible for it.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't know it would go this far this quickly.
Guest:And also, I thought I'd be more in the seat of power.
Guest:I'm outside the house trying to get back in.
Guest:Oh, he'll get back in.
Guest:I think, don't you?
Guest:I mean, I think Trump goes through people.
Guest:What is your personal level of fear on a day-to-day basis?
Guest:So I'm super happy that I live in Oakland.
Guest:I just want to be clear about that.
Guest:And talking to my kids the night that Trump won, there was a whole talk about like, well, while this is bad for the country, we are fortunate that we both live in California, we live in the Bay Area, and we live in Oakland.
Guest:It feels like it just gets more and more protected as we get there.
Guest:What's Oakland like now?
Guest:I mean, Oakland, like every city is going through it, but it has been really used as a way that like the doom loop stuff out of San Francisco has been sort of the idea that like the city is falling apart.
Guest:It is definitely going through it, but it is not.
Guest:It is a great city.
Guest:The doom loop?
Guest:The doom loop.
Guest:Has hit Oakland?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The tales of the doom loop.
Marc:Well, what is the doom loop essentially?
Guest:Just the idea that there is no opportunity.
Guest:The vacuum of tech money.
Guest:The vacuum.
Guest:People left in the pandemic.
Guest:Basically, people left the Bay Area after the pandemic, but the housing prices didn't come down.
Guest:Yeah, and there's a lot of empty real estate.
Guest:And there's a ton of homeless people.
Guest:There's a ton of encampments all over the city.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's like you can see the poverty in a way that like people who grew up in Oakland their whole lives are like, yeah, it was maybe it was more violent when I was a kid, but it wasn't this desperate.
Marc:It's almost like the the tenderloin spread like a cancer.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So throughout the whole city.
Guest:So, like, I mean, Oakland's mayor was just recalled.
Guest:So we're just Oakland's going through some Barbara Lee, who was our congressperson running for mayor.
Guest:So it's definitely going through some transitions, but it's still a great place for me to raise my family.
Guest:I wouldn't go anywhere else.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you get involved in city politics?
Guest:Yeah, actually just in a way that like I was helping a group.
Guest:I'm with a group of activists and filmmakers.
Guest:Boots Riley is one of them.
Guest:How's that guy doing?
Guest:He's doing exactly the same.
Guest:He's working.
Guest:He's making a new TV show.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:He sells these weird projects to people and makes them.
Guest:But Boots is not.
Guest:He has new hats every now and again.
Guest:Yeah, literally.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He literally has new hats, but I've never been like, man, Boots seems to be going through a rough time.
Guest:Our kids both dance at the same dance place, so we see each other.
Guest:Yeah, he's a hustler.
Guest:He's an absolute hustler.
Guest:And so, yeah, we're on a board of a group called Cinemama.
Guest:He invited me to do it on the board of local artists who are trying to figure out how to make Oakland a more livable place for artists and filmmakers.
Guest:And so, yeah, so I had to work with some people in the city to get Oakland to pass the same sort of tax incentives that you get in Toronto so that it's affordable to film in Oakland.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, so we got them past.
Guest:It's just the city's too broke to really do anything with it.
Guest:But, yeah, so for the first time in my life, I've actually, like, done the kind of organizing I always wasn't doing.
Guest:Like, the, like, let's go to meetings and let's go shake hands.
Marc:And you've picked a specific area.
Guest:Yeah, like, that's the thing about picking the area.
Guest:I'm not going to solve the crime problem, but if we could get Hollywood, if we can make it easier for people to film here, that's jobs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like, and it also gives people who live here a way to stay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what about just like in terms of your being the fear level in terms of going out on the road or any of that shit?
Guest:I mean, there is definitely like like before even Trump dropped out of the before he even took over the Kennedy Center, they called me at one point and were like, we're going to hire security.
Guest:And I know whenever I get that call, it like something has happened, you know.
Guest:So I know that like we live in a time where a guy like me who's out here calling Nazis Nazis.
Guest:It just has to be more aware of what I'm doing.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And so I am aware.
Guest:Luckily, like I said, because I live in Oakland, I feel safe wherever I go in Oakland.
Guest:I feel like the city's got my back.
Guest:But, like, you know, I don't travel with, like, a team of people.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which, in some sense, I think is help because people don't expect me to be walking around places.
Guest:But, like...
Guest:Yeah, it's definitely a thing where I'm aware that like, you know, me and my wife talk all the time about like, sometimes I'll say things and she'll see the internet get upset and like this Kennedy Center thing.
Guest:And it's like, she's just like, whew, like there's a sense of like, this could come home to us.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we've gotten hate mail, not in a while, but there's times we've gotten hate mail and stuff.
Guest:And so it's just the thing.
Marc:When you were on CNN?
Guest:Yeah, when I was on CNN.
Guest:Yeah, because I was just lumped in with the whole crew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, I...
Guest:I'm aware that I could turn down the volume on some things just to make things easier in myself, but I just don't have it in me.
Guest:I wouldn't know what I would be doing otherwise.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I get nervous and scared because of that, that once you walk out of the venue, you're kind of on your own.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:After the show, you sort of like, and the thing that I also have is like, I can feel like there's a lot of, especially because a lot of security people are black often, and they will be like, they will take extra care.
Guest:I feel like I'm getting extra care because they know what I'm going through when I'm out there doing, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it's like, it's a thing sometimes I can feel people like, no, no, no, no, like really like watching out for me in ways just to.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Yeah, no, I, I.
Guest:Who knew that I would be considered... I'm also in my... As a gray-haired 52-year-old man, I'm in my unk years.
Guest:So people see me as like the old guy who like... We got to protect him.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's a pillar of the community.
Guest:Yeah, I'm a pillar of the community now.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I always say it's funny.
Guest:I was never a G, but I get to be an OG just because I didn't die.
Guest:Sure, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was never cool enough to be a G. He's got the stories.
Guest:Yeah, I got the stories.
Guest:Now I got some stories.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, I got three kids and...
Guest:uh we you know we they we did a doc that they were in and me and my wife talked about a lot about is this should we do this and it's just you know you it's a constant negotiation of like what should i be doing how much should we be doing how much i'll be putting them out there uh you know it's there's a constant negotiation about what my how to move through the world yeah right but do you ever get to that point where you're like look you know i'm just gonna worry about my life fuck this other shit
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't mean to be like, that's not how I was raised, but the career that I've chosen, there's not a just worry about my life version of this.
Guest:The way that I've chosen to do my career, I could have- And life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It would have been much easier on me as a human to not make a four-hour documentary about Bill Cosby.
Guest:It would have been much easier.
Marc:What was the pushback on that?
Guest:I mean, I knew going in a lot of black people, like I will run into black people on the streets, like black dudes especially who are around my age are like, brother, I liked everything you did except for that.
Guest:And who will like sort of like want to read me the riot act about that thing.
Marc:Oh, well, why'd you have to throw him under the bus?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, wait, what about that dude?
Marc:You know, that guy who did the OJ doc?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's good.
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, he must have taken a lot, too.
Guest:But Ezra's like a ghost.
Guest:You don't see him.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm out there in the streets.
Guest:I'm out there like, I'm running for king of show business, where Ezra's just like, I don't know where he is.
Guest:He was the work.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think he's in New York.
Guest:Well, yeah, and he just did that nine-hour Prince talk that's never going to come out.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because the Prince people don't like it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It's nine hours.
Guest:It's a Netflix nine hour doc about Prince.
Guest:And in classic Ezra fashion, it was supposed to be like a five hour doc.
Guest:And he made a nine hour doc.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they don't like all the things he went into.
Guest:So it's apparently not going to see the light of day.
Guest:And it's finished.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nothing he can do.
Guest:Not willing to change.
Guest:Not willing to change it.
Guest:I think he could do a lot.
Guest:He could cut it down to what they want.
Guest:He could take all their notes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's not doing that.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:And what do you make of that that you get pushback on Cosby?
Guest:I understood it.
Guest:I mean, like I said, as a as a dude who grew up in that era, I know what people are investing in Cosby.
Guest:And I know that like I get the black perspective of like we have to stick together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I get it.
Guest:But it's also like but not if one of us is hurting us.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, so I didn't it wasn't surprising.
Guest:And I sort of imagined all the worst things that could happen.
Guest:Like.
Guest:I think it's one of the great things about being a comedian is having an active imagination.
Guest:So I knew somebody's going to put out a thing that we need to talk about W. Kamau Bell because that was we need to talk about Cosby.
Guest:And that happened on YouTube.
Guest:Somebody put out a we need to talk about W. Kamau Bell.
Guest:And I saw all the comedy things, all the black comedy things that I watch on YouTube watching about black comedy.
Guest:They didn't agree with me.
Guest:I was like, oh, yeah.
Guest:For that reason?
Guest:What, do you got to hit one of our own for it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or the white man sets you up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But one of the great things about being older is I stand by the work.
Guest:I know it's good.
Guest:And unless you help me raise my kids, I don't really give a shit.
Guest:I used to really care about other people.
Marc:Isn't that weird to develop that callous?
Marc:Yeah, I just don't have time to.
Marc:Yeah, but then every once in a while you have moments of regression and you're like, oh, God, what did I do?
Guest:Well, no, sometimes you get caught up in a thread.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:But generally, if I don't see it, if I just like YouTube was like, do you want to see this?
Guest:Who needs to talk?
Guest:We need to talk about W. Kamau Bell video?
Guest:No, I don't want to see that.
Guest:But yeah, I just, and you know, there's still, over time it's been a net plus because I think more people are happy that we had the conversation.
Guest:Also with like Diddy going down.
Guest:It's just very clear that showbiz is ugly and we need to get rid of the ugly parts.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what do you make of the black MAGA?
Guest:I think the tales of the black MAGA are highly exaggerated.
Guest:I think there's way more talk about them than there actually is them.
Guest:They get one guy who's out of his mind anyway.
Guest:Yeah, and those guys don't last very long.
Guest:I think that still black men voted for Kamala Harris in like 87% or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is way higher than white women and white men.
Guest:So I think it's like it is a talking point that people like to use because we like to try to figure out how to blame it on black people somehow.
Guest:And it's a good way to shame black people.
Guest:Or is it blame or is it like, look, we got some.
Guest:Well, no, they also they need to have some.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They need to have they need to have that guy.
Guest:The black friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was on Instagram and this guy came after me talking about something I said.
Guest:I realized he was the black gay guy.
Guest:who was at a MAGA event and got kicked out and called the N-word.
Guest:And he was a MAGA guy at a MAGA event.
Guest:And they bullied him out of the event.
Guest:And he's still a MAGA guy.
Guest:And I'm like, aren't you that guy who got, he's like, yeah.
Guest:All right, man, take care.
Guest:He's like, we don't need to debate anything.
Guest:You've shown me who you are.
Guest:Yeah, and it's a pathology that's beyond politics.
Guest:No, no, it's definitely about, like, something with your family and your dad.
Guest:Yeah, there's something broken.
Guest:And I'm not going to be mad at you, but I'm not going to, you know, I'm well beyond, like, debate me, bro.
Marc:Like, I'm not going to debate you on the— That's another line I do on stage now.
Marc:So, look, I know, you know, look, you're my audience.
Marc:We're all broken, but we broke left.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That's a good one.
Marc:We're not douchebags.
Marc:We're empathy whores.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's all I want is empathy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I don't you know, I think black black mag is a convenient way to not really attract the problem of like it's actually white people.
Marc:But also when it comes right down to a black or white, you realize that a lot of these guys are in it for the money, man.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like, I'm above this shit.
Marc:Sure, I'll play for these people.
Marc:I'll play to them.
Marc:I'll play of them.
Marc:That's the questionable one.
Guest:But that's the funny thing.
Guest:But the grift doesn't ever last that long.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But does any grift?
Guest:No, some grifts.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I guess, yeah, the supplement grift.
Guest:There's some grifts that are like, you know, like.
Guest:Eternal.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Eternal grift.
Guest:The New Testament.
Guest:I say the white grifters get a longer grift window.
Guest:That's all I would say.
Guest:Like, you know, Bill O'Reilly got a real long grift window.
Guest:Tucker Carlson got a long grift window.
Guest:Glenn Beck.
Guest:But the black grifters generally don't get that long of a window.
Guest:They don't get 10 years of grift.
Marc:It's interesting about the grift because, like, I think at the core of it is that they don't give a fuck.
Marc:No.
Marc:about people, about anything but their ability to stay in that zone of wealth and privilege.
Guest:Yeah, and you've got to fake it until you make it.
Guest:There's a lot of, like, if I pretend I'm on this side, somehow my net worth will come up to be on this side.
Guest:And I think they're relying on the fact that most people—
Guest:The people who pay close attention to politics are a small percentage of people.
Guest:So you don't actually have to have facts and figures to convince anybody.
Guest:You just got to have vibes.
Guest:So I think they just rely on the fact that, especially now that so much of the MAGA movement is tied into manhood and masculinity and the Andrew Tate thing.
Guest:So it's all tied into being a man and being a provider.
Guest:And so it's not even tied into politics.
Right.
Marc:Yeah, but it's also about exploiting the sort of fundamentally male frustration of a lot of young guys that have no game.
Marc:And, you know, whatever they're aspiring to is mostly just, you know, fuck you.
Marc:I'm going to make you pay for this.
Guest:Yeah, but these guys have no game.
Guest:And speaking as a person who did not have a lot of game.
Guest:You're de-gaming yourself.
Marc:Well, I didn't have a lot of game, but with a certain part of the culture, I had some game.
Marc:Yeah, no, for sure.
Marc:I wouldn't say it was game-appliable to any situation.
Guest:It wasn't a broad game.
Guest:It wasn't soccer.
Guest:It was Highline.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was a very specific game.
Guest:Yeah, very specific game in the area.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, my game didn't travel well.
Guest:So, yeah, I just think that, like, you have, like, been, you know, like, there's been all, like, Andrew Tate is the greatest example of this.
Guest:Like, you are pretending to be a person that you're not.
Guest:You're also a sex trafficker.
Guest:And you're telling guys, if you pay me $1,000 a month, you will just, that will help you be more like me.
Guest:But really, all I want is thousands of dollars a month.
Guest:And there's no being like me because I'm not real.
Marc:I asked somebody about an audience for Jordan Peterson.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And they said it was the weirdest audience they ever saw.
Marc:They characterized it as being like nerdy guys with clearly escorts.
Guest:And I'm like, yeah.
Guest:When you see the distance between the two people, it's like, this is a credit card exchange.
Guest:You're going to get a receipt at the end of the evening.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So what are you telling your kids, the ones that can understand?
Guest:Well, no, at 13, 10, and 6, they all can understand on some level.
Guest:What are the principles that you're imbuing?
Marc:Is that the word?
Guest:No, that's good.
Guest:Yeah, because it's funny.
Guest:I was thinking, we don't, like, we didn't, my wife grew up Catholic.
Guest:I grew up just black Christian, whatever that meant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we both did a lot of church and mass and stuff, but our kids don't do that.
Guest:We just didn't do that with them because my wife didn't feel like we have to take them to Catholic mass because she's a sensitive, thoughtful person.
Guest:And that's like, it's scary.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, but like, we certainly, one of the big things we talk about is just gratitude because I think my kids get to see and do a lot of things that they wouldn't get to do if not for my career.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's really important to me to actually be like, just to be clear, you don't deserve this.
Guest:Like I said, I used my celebrity status to get us into Universal Studios.
Guest:But then at the end of the day, this was a great thing we did.
Guest:These people are nice.
Guest:Don't walk around like a jerk because you got to go to Universal Studios.
Guest:And so for me, gratitude is a big part of it.
Guest:And also that we talk about it literally.
Guest:It's our family job to try to make the world a better place.
Guest:It's just like, you know, that's because we have... Is there a checklist?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It starts with cleaning your room.
Guest:It starts with like... Making your bed.
Guest:Yeah, making your bed.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Not that I'm even great at that, but it does start with like doing well in your area and then going out in the world and like... You know, one of the best things as a dad you can see is when your kid helps somebody out in the world without you saying anything to them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, so for me, it's like seeing my kids do that and seeing like...
Guest:Sammy, like, you know, I got mixed race kids.
Guest:So I feel like some stuff I can't like let go unsaid.
Guest:So I was like, look, if you see a black woman in the street, you smile at her.
Guest:Doesn't matter if you know her or not.
Guest:You smile at her.
Guest:You nod at her because she's going to see you and she wants to know that you see her back.
Guest:And yeah, you say hello.
Guest:You say hello.
Guest:You nod.
Guest:You call a ma'am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like, so to be like, this is a part of what it is to be in our community.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so like we went to Alabama last year and then in Alabama in years because of COVID.
Guest:And I was like, look, every black woman you meet is going to think that you're they're going to think they've known you since you're a baby and you've never met him before.
Guest:And you just got to like understand they're going to hug you and kiss you like you.
Guest:This is what it is.
Guest:I can't I can't let things go unsaid that I might if they were black kids growing up with two black parents.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Black in a black neighborhood.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, so do you have family in Alabama?
Guest:My dad lives in Mobile, Alabama.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Forever?
Guest:Yeah, born and raised there.
Guest:Has lived other places, but he really likes being a big fish in a small town.
Guest:What kind of fish is he?
Guest:He was an insurance guy.
Guest:An insurance fish?
Guest:He was the insurance commissioner for the state of Alabama at one point.
Guest:So he's a guy that people go, when are you going to run for mayor?
Guest:But he's a really big fish in that town.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Walter Bell.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Walter Bell.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he's so only in the last 10 years have I caught him in that town.
Guest:Like now people say, oh, I saw your son.
Guest:Like now he's my dad.
Guest:But for years I was his son.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're kind of like you got an extended family of people who know you are there.
Guest:Oh, yeah, for sure.
Guest:If I go there, it's not about—I saw you on TV, but I also saw you in your diapers.
Guest:And I know your grandmother.
Guest:And people are like, come on, good to see you again.
Guest:And I'm like, I have no idea who this person is.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah, it's good to see you again, too.
Guest:How are they all holding up down there?
Guest:I mean, Alabama is such a funny place because they don't expect much because it's Alabama.
Marc:Well, that's an interesting idea in terms of—
Marc:You know, what is scary in terms of community?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I imagine because, like, you know, panicky white liberals are different than, you know, dug in black communities in Alabama.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The governor always hates us.
Guest:So, like, it's not like it's not new for the governor.
Guest:It's like occasionally get a nice a nicer Republican governor.
Guest:Right now they have a bad one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:K. Ivy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They call me ma.
Guest:But yeah, like the governor always is against us.
Guest:They're always taking from us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we always have to figure it out on our own.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's more like, here we go again.
Marc:Here we go again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like it's not like a big and I have to get along with with MAGA people because I couldn't I wouldn't be able to talk to people if I didn't talk to MAGA people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But but in some ways, not to be stereotyping, but, you know, that dynamic is is has been there forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In one form or another.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:And I'm not even sure that the people that they're dealing with, however you want to label them, are fundamentally any more racist.
Guest:No, it's just a different style.
Guest:Different hat.
Guest:I always say it's like every place in America is racist.
Guest:It's just you got to, if you're lucky, you get to live in the place where you fit with the style of racism.
Guest:You get to pick.
Guest:You get to pick.
Guest:Like, I couldn't do Boston racism.
Guest:No, because then you're going to live in another part of the city.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You don't even know where they live.
Guest:They still call black people slurs I don't know.
Guest:They still got the old ones, the real old ones.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah, the Irish ones.
Guest:Yeah, the Irish ones.
Guest:In Alabama, I like to go down.
Guest:I love going to Alabama and feeling comfortable down there, but I wouldn't live down there.
Marc:Isn't that fucking interesting, though, that...
Marc:That in what are stereotypically the more racist regions of the country, they're much more integrated places.
Marc:Yeah, because they had to get along because they were working together.
Guest:I'm putting in air quotes.
Guest:Not everybody could go to Chicago.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You couldn't be so racist as a white person that you didn't want to talk to black people.
Guest:You had to talk to them because you needed to tell them what to do that day.
Guest:Or fulfill their order or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, you had to sort of know how to be around.
Guest:So there's much more...
Guest:you know much more closeness weirdly in the south yeah yeah like new york city where everybody goes into their apartment and looks down what was your experience in boston i was i lived in boston when i was a little kid oh because i lived there for years yeah no i i boston was places where like i can go but it's not it's like a childhood memory of a place but right right but it's funny but like i i live there enough that like people from boston feel like ah i knew you were one of us
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, like I met Matt and Ben Affleck.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
Guest:And they were like, ah, you're a Boston guy.
Guest:Like, sure.
Guest:Not that Boston.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Boy, those Affleck guys can really turn on the Boston.
Guest:They sure can.
Guest:They sure can.
Guest:They're funny, man.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:But, again, moving around a lot as a kid, that's why I think I sort of feel like I understand this country in a way that a lot of people don't because I saw a lot of it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And are you taking your kids out in the world?
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Yeah, I took them to D.C.
Guest:last summer.
Guest:I took them to— You showed them all the things?
Guest:I showed them all the things.
Guest:Is he going to fuck with the museums, too?
Guest:Yeah, he's going to fuck with the museums.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think he's going to... I think he's only going to not fuck with things if they don't come across his desk.
Guest:But I absolutely think... The African-American Museum there is this incredible... Unbelievable.
Guest:It's just this incredible... I took my kids there, and it was like... I saw it when it first opened, and I was like, I got to bring my kids here.
Guest:And I'm so happy I waited, because they all appreciated it on different levels, and they would have stayed.
Guest:And when I was a kid, I would have done... Museums were different, too.
Guest:But yeah, so... I sort of wonder what happened to that museum.
Guest:Theoretically...
Guest:On a policy level, he could close the whole place down because it's too woke.
Guest:Yeah, no, for sure.
Guest:Or just make it harder to deal with.
Guest:Like, we're going to change the hours or we're going to charge money.
Guest:Because they're all free, but they could just decide now it's going to be...
Guest:$50.
Guest:How are they not saying that is the capital of DEI?
Guest:Well, I know the guy who runs that museum, and I sort of want to reach out and be like, hey, man.
Guest:How are you handling the DEI?
Guest:Anything I can do for you?
Guest:Leave me to send out a tweet or whatever?
Guest:What the fuck was their email?
Guest:What was the email to that place?
Guest:Stop your DEI policy.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:We need more white.
Guest:Well, they'll just tell the slavery story differently.
Yeah.
Guest:They live together.
Guest:You know, they got slaves got free room and board.
Guest:You got to do that as a bit.
Guest:They'll just change because the lower level now is super intense and depressing.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, just switch it to make it the white person's point of view.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Hi, I'm Kid Rock, here to tell you about slavery.
Marc:That's a funny bit, dude.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:No, I think that like, but yeah, like the funny thing, the cool thing is my middle kid is 10 and so she's at the age now where I took her on the road with me one time.
Guest:I had a gig in like
Guest:at Colorado State University in like, I think it was in Fort Collins.
Guest:And then I had a gig in Portland at a podcast.
Guest:And I just took her with me on the road.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like a 10-year-old on the road with you.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like it was, it was just like.
Guest:Learning things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Learning things and figuring out airports and how to like, and also like, no, we have to stay here because we got to go here.
Guest:And yeah, you'll be on stage.
Guest:You'll sit here.
Guest:And like, it was, it was really like fun in a way that it's not fun if I go by myself.
Guest:But by the third night was she like, yeah, how come you do the same thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She gives notes.
Guest:She does give notes.
Guest:Last night you said it funnier.
Guest:She does do that.
Guest:She does do that, which I actually appreciate.
Guest:It's like, well, thank you.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:I did say it funnier last night.
Marc:There's that moment where you tell whoever your girlfriend is, like, you don't have to come tonight.
Guest:You've seen it.
Guest:I don't have any new stuff.
Guest:Or when they ask, do you have any new stuff?
Guest:You're like, oh, no.
Guest:Maybe one thing.
Guest:Yeah, maybe.
Guest:I'm working on it.
Guest:Why don't you stay home?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but yeah, so it's, yeah, I take, my kids have traveled a lot, which is great because I think, again, it's just the benefit of.
Guest:Out of the country too?
Guest:A little bit, but not as much as, you know, COVID hit pretty early in their life.
Guest:So now how do you see the effect of it on them now?
Guest:So my six year old, I think it's just very clear that she was not socialized at the age where her sisters were.
Guest:So I talk about my act.
Guest:My joke is that she's feral.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But she's really like she just didn't just there's a whole generation of kids who.
Guest:like when you go to her first grade class, it's just a little bit chaos and it's not the teacher's fault, but it's a whole generation of kids who, who at two years old, weren't mixing up with other kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I think that there's, you can totally see it.
Guest:You can totally see it.
Guest:I have all my, like all my friends who had kids who were like making transitions, like kids who went from like, who were going to middle school, right.
Guest:When COVID hit her kids were in high school, all are a little bit like tweaked because their new level experience wasn't the thing they thought it was going to be.
Guest:Well, they didn't evolve into,
Guest:They didn't get to have their preteen years.
Guest:My goddaughter, who I actually write about in the book, was going to college and had a whole plan to go to D.C.
Guest:and then couldn't do all that stuff.
Guest:So yeah, I think we're going to see the effects on these kids forever.
Marc:Well, I think it had a profound effect on our politics, too.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:You know, like, you know, I mean, that's really where the sides were divided, I think.
Guest:Yeah, I think that, like, that's when they really dug it.
Guest:It's so weird that you would think Trump wasn't the president as much as they've talked about, as much as they've talked about how badly COVID was handled.
Guest:You know, that was you, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was like, you know, you did that.
Guest:You know, the vaccine that you hate, you developed.
Guest:That was under your administration.
Guest:But, yeah, that's when they really dug it.
Marc:But also, like, they dug it.
Marc:dug into the government intrusion.
Marc:Don't trust the government.
Marc:Well, the vaccine mandates really fucking sealed it for those people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that like, and what, I don't know what the other- I can't get it through my head.
Marc:It's like, it-
Marc:I just don't see any other way to spin it.
Marc:Sure, okay, pharmaceutical companies make money, but the idea was people were dying, and this is what we got, and we're trying to maybe help people not die of this.
Marc:Whether you would or not is not the issue.
Guest:No, it's about the fact that, and also, we as a culture have been through, not that we remember, but we've been through this before.
Guest:It's not like this is the first time a pandemic has hit, but because we don't know our history, and we don't trust the history books, even if we read them, and because we love, for some reason,
Guest:The coolest thing to be is somebody who knows nothing and ask questions.
Guest:Look, I don't know anything, but I still have questions.
Guest:So I think that allowing that person's voice to be as loud as the expert's voice, and that person's always going to be louder.
Marc:Yeah, but the problem is, I don't know anything, I have questions, and then someone goes, well, I'll show you what's really happening.
Marc:Who the fuck knows what that guy's going to show?
Marc:And usually it's just the internet.
Guest:It doesn't go a good place.
Guest:Or somebody goes, I'm a doctor in that thing you have questions about.
Guest:And here's all the answers.
Guest:And you go, but how would you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who told you?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Why do you think you're smarter than me?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, do you realize there's a rise in people sort of openly talking about how they don't believe the earth is round?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like people feel more comfortable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In talking about something like, well, how would you know?
Guest:Confidently stupid.
Guest:Confidently stupid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that like because we sort of allowed this, we turn free speech into something that it's not.
Guest:We feel as a society, we feel like somehow it's limiting somebody's free speech to say, stop saying things that aren't true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or that's wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what you said is wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we should we should turn your volume down because it's just wrong.
Marc:But there's no pushback because of this separate worlds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, so like, you know, their big argument is like, I don't know.
Marc:Well, that's the thing.
Guest:But if you put the person, like, you know, this Flat Earth guy, Rogan had some Flat Earth guy on, was like told Neil deGrasse Tyson, I want you to talk to him and debate him.
Guest:And Neil deGrasse Tyson was like, no, I'm not doing that.
Guest:Like, I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, why would I waste my time?
Guest:But somehow we, and then people go, he's afraid.
Guest:All right, well, I think we're doomed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's afraid to engage with somebody who will never believe what he has to say, even though it's based on empirical evidence.
Guest:He's afraid of wasting his time for no good reason.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's afraid of, like, life is only this long.
Guest:Do you know that guy?
Guest:Neil?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Met him a couple times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's not in my phone.
Marc:Not in your world?
Marc:Not in your phone?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I have a very small world.
Guest:He's not in there.
Guest:I mean, you know.
Marc:So what's the plan now?
Marc:You're just touring?
Guest:I'm touring through the, like, we're adding more dates, so I just actually added some Southern dates in South Carolina, North Carolina, with the hope of, like, eventually figuring out.
Marc:Charleston?
Guest:Charleston, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That theater there?
Guest:Yeah, the Charleston Music Hall.
Guest:Yeah, I'm doing that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I don't sell great there.
Guest:We'll see.
Guest:I mean, it's very black, so I think I should do okay.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I'm not getting the blacks.
Guest:I'll promote your Charleston show.
Guest:You promote my San Diego show.
All right.
Guest:I do okay in San Diego.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, I figured you would.
Guest:I didn't even know I did.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:I'll let people in Charleston know you're coming because I have a hook up there.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Guest:I don't have a lot of black fans.
Guest:And we'll work on that.
Guest:I'm going to actually invest some time into getting you some because you would do well with the blacks.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You keep it real.
Guest:Yeah, I definitely keep it real.
Guest:You keep it real.
Marc:But I think for some blacks, it would be like, it's a little too real.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:But the blacks in Charleston, they're cosmopolitan blacks.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:So they would like your— Yeah, I've been doing a lot of red states, man.
Marc:And I went to Lexington, Kentucky.
Marc:I went to Louisville, Kentucky.
Marc:I went to Asheville.
Marc:That's not— Oh, yeah.
Marc:But I went to Nashville.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:And the other places were great.
Marc:I think the most southern I did was Lexington.
Marc:And, you know, it's, again, even... You do Atlanta, though, right?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But no places in Florida, no... I don't go to Florida.
Okay.
Okay.
Marc:Fair enough.
Marc:I just don't go.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I mean, I don't go to Arkansas.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:You know, I haven't been to Alabama in a while.
Marc:You know, I don't tour.
Marc:I'm not one of these guys that has to hit all the states.
Marc:Yeah, you're not trying to hit all the markets.
Marc:Yeah, and some people will travel to see me.
Marc:And it's not because I'm afraid or anything else.
Marc:I just don't want the stress of wondering why I'm not selling tickets in Mobile.
Guest:No, you'd rather book a bigger venue in Atlanta and tell people in Alabama you better drive.
Marc:Sure, yeah, come up.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, or Florida.
Guest:And they're used to that.
Guest:They're used to that.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I think they are.
Marc:I mean, I could do smaller venues and I don't even mind doing that.
Marc:But there's just the idea that like, because no matter what city you go to, for the most part, if it's a bigger town or city, you know, you got like minded people there.
Guest:Yeah, no, it's like I did Jackson, Mississippi, which I did years ago, which I was worried about.
Guest:It ended up being like I became the meetup for every progressive in the in the 500 mile area.
Guest:It was like.
Guest:Mostly about them meeting up with each other and like, we'll watch Kamau's show.
Guest:But I thought it was like, it's a great way to get people to come together.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's what I said at the top.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Let's start to write some flyers down.
Marc:I do this bit sometimes on stage.
Marc:I say, I'm not an arena act.
Marc:And I say, I think I could do one arena if it was centrally located and I can bus people in.
Marc:And I go, I say, buses leaving out of Whole Foods parking lots for Marin and these cities.
Yeah.
Guest:That's exactly, yeah.
Guest:We'll all go to one arena in Nebraska.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It'll work out.
Guest:But, no, so I'm doing that.
Guest:I have my Substack, which is also called Who's With Me.
Guest:I've spent a lot of time in there.
Guest:I've sort of turned away from, like, for now, from traditional showbiz and just sort of, like, doing what I can.
Guest:How's the Substack do?
Guest:It's doing great.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It's doing really great.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, I sort of put half effort into it last year and looked up.
Guest:I was like, wait, this is actually doing really well.
Guest:And so this year really, like, sort of doubled down.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you write every week?
Guest:Every week.
Guest:You know, three times a week, three times a month, basically.
Guest:But yeah, every week.
Guest:And I have somebody help me with it who helps me like proofread stuff.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I'm not saying the wrong thing.
Guest:But yeah, I actually love it a lot because it's like a way to keep my brain working and bits come out of it.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:My latest one, I just was like, how many different insults can I think of for Steve Bannon?
Guest:And it's like.
Guest:So it's like a fun challenge.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:And you can interact with the community and you own the audience in a way that you don't on these social media platforms because they sign up for you and you have their email addresses.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's not like this.
Guest:So it feels more – it's a better way to spend your time online than – yeah, I'm a big – you should come to Substack.
Guest:I know a guy.
Guest:I write my thing every week.
Guest:All you got to do is put it on Substack.
Guest:You don't have to change anything.
Guest:You just put it on Substack.
Guest:There are going to be people who come to you who wouldn't know other than that.
Guest:Just put it on Substack.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Just put it on Substack.
Guest:Same thing.
Guest:You don't have to do anything different.
Guest:Just a couple pages?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some people...
Guest:Some people tweet it like Twitter, where it's just a few long tweets.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But you already were writing a thing every week.
Guest:Just put it on Substack.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like a lot of them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to work on that bit about the anti-woke black history.
Guest:About the new exhibits at the African-American Museum.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's a good one.
Guest:I'm glad I got a bit out of this.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Guest:This is worth it.
Guest:Good seeing you.
Guest:Good seeing you.
Marc:There you go, Kamau Bell.
Marc:Again, you can find his tour dates at wkamaubell.com, and he'll be in San Diego at Mic Drop Comedy this weekend.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:For more of me and Kamau, he's been on five other WTF episodes, some live ones, a couple short ones, ones from very early on.
Marc:But he also came on three years ago to talk about the documentary he made, We Need to Talk About Cosby, and go check that out, too.
Marc:And I don't think that anybody in one sort of lump or one sort of context has heard any of those survivors go at length, unless you were in the courtroom or wherever those things were.
Marc:Or you were their lawyer.
Marc:Yeah, a deposition of some kind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, and I thought, too, that the natural thing, the natural humanization that happens when, you know, you can sit there and watch somebody talk or tell a story and the nuances of those things.
Marc:Yeah, I found that to be, you know, I don't even want to use the word damning, but because this isn't a trial, but it was sort of like, there's no reason any of these women would make any of this shit up.
Guest:And especially, a lot of this happened to them 30, 40 years ago.
Guest:Like, why would you still be riding on a lie like this?
Guest:Yeah, and a lot of them didn't even want to talk about it.
Guest:Didn't want to talk.
Guest:And to be fair, like, a lot of them were like, the only reason they thought they would talk about it now is because they were like, they believed in, they'd seen my work before, and they're like, well, if anybody can pull this thing off, it's you is what I was being, like, so, like, they were like, I'm going to trust you, which is why, even though I often wanted to quit, I was like, I can't do it because these women have trusted me.
Marc:That's me and Kamau on episode 1308.
Marc:You can listen to that for free on all podcast apps.
Marc:To get every episode of WTF ad-free, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Now let me dig up some guitar for you from the vault.
So I play man beat.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey LaFonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.