Episode 162 - Michael Showalter
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:How?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:It's time for WTF.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Mark Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking knots?
Marc:All those things.
Marc:How's everybody?
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:Thank you for listening to WTF.
Marc:I'm glad you're here.
Marc:I apologize about my throat.
Marc:Wait, before I talk about my throat and my nose on the show today, Michael Showalter.
Marc:In my attempt to eventually get every member of the state on this show, Michael Showalter is today.
Marc:He was out in L.A.
Marc:He's got a book out.
Marc:He was doing a book tour.
Marc:He stopped by the garage.
Marc:We had a chat.
Marc:And far be it from me to have a no-problem relationship with anybody, there was some tension between me and Michael at another time.
Marc:Surprised?
Marc:So we talk about that a little bit, but I had a great chat with him.
Marc:I think you'll enjoy it.
Marc:I apologize about the throat thing.
Marc:I don't know how I got another cold.
Marc:I know how.
Marc:There's colds everywhere.
Marc:There's all kinds of bugs everywhere.
Marc:All the time.
Marc:I'm on airplanes half of my life just breathing in bugs.
Marc:And they're getting stronger.
Marc:I'm grateful I don't have the horrendous flu bug or the shit and vomit bug that's going around.
Marc:The shit and vomit bug sounds awful.
Marc:It's a good two-day shit and vomit bug.
Marc:I did not get a sweaty two-day shit and vomit bug.
Marc:Do not have that yet, knock on wood.
Marc:I do have this throat and nose thing, though.
Marc:I'll accept that.
Marc:I'd rather have that.
Marc:So let's talk about this thing that's sort of eating at my soul, chipping away at my guts.
Marc:I'm having a hard time talking about it.
Marc:I'm having a hard time putting it out there.
Marc:I feel like I have some weird secret.
Marc:Sorry, I'm swallowing heavy because of my... I got snot in my head.
Marc:So let me share this secret that I've been sitting on that's been kind of gnawing at me.
Marc:I got to share it.
Marc:You guys are my people.
Marc:I want to tell you about it.
Marc:I'm obviously nervous about it, but it happened.
Marc:Things happen.
Marc:I was driving back from Santa Barbara.
Marc:I'd done an interview up there.
Marc:I'll share that with you later.
Marc:That's going to be great.
Marc:Very excited about that.
Marc:I'm driving back.
Marc:I get a call from a guy I knew back in the day.
Marc:He used to be a booker at a club.
Marc:And now he's a big guy, big promoter, big concert promoter, fairly important concert promoter guy.
Marc:Does a lot of big comedy shows, theater shows.
Marc:We don't talk a lot.
Marc:I don't do theaters.
Marc:But I've always had a good relationship with this cat.
Marc:He calls me up.
Marc:I'm in the car coming back.
Marc:And he says, I got to talk to you.
Marc:It was a message.
Marc:I got to talk to you.
Marc:You know, it's pretty important.
Marc:And I want to ask you something.
Marc:So I was like, what is this?
Marc:So I call him back.
Marc:I'm like, what's up?
Marc:He says, I'm at the gym.
Marc:I'll call you back.
Marc:So now I'm just about to shit my pants in suspense.
Marc:And then he calls me back and he says, look, I'm doing this Charlie Sheen tour.
Marc:He was approached by my company.
Marc:He's into doing this show.
Marc:He wants to do a series of dates.
Marc:And I want to bring some people in to meet with him, talk to him.
Marc:I'm bringing some people in to talk about show structure.
Marc:And I wanted to bring some stand-ups in to maybe get a feel for where he's at and talk to him.
Marc:I think he's open to it.
Marc:And I thought, wow.
Marc:I don't know what to think about that.
Marc:But I'll tell you what I did have in the car right after the call with the promoter.
Marc:I had my equipment in the car, so I recorded what I thought about that in that moment.
Marc:So let's listen to that.
Marc:Got a message from a promoter, a concert promoter who I knew back in the day.
Marc:He's gone on to be a pretty big promoter.
Marc:He called me back and then went on to tell me that he was promoting the Charlie Sheen tour.
Marc:He said, well, I got some people going over there to meet with him.
Marc:I don't know if he wants to help.
Marc:I think he wants to help to put this show together.
Marc:I want the show to be successful.
Marc:I don't want it to be a disaster.
Marc:I said, well, look, you know, a lot of people are buying tickets to a disaster.
Marc:I mean, you're concerned about ticket sales.
Marc:I don't know how anyone could possibly judge anybody on that.
Marc:I mean, it seems to me that if they bought this ticket, they know it's a gamble.
Marc:They're going there to see a spectacle of some kind.
Marc:I don't think they're expecting a song and dance, man.
Marc:They're expecting something real to happen.
Marc:As Chuck Klosterman said on a recent WTF, all people are thinking is that this is happening.
Marc:But then I'm torn about it.
Marc:I don't know what you want me to do here.
Marc:I said to him, I think it seems to me that the only way to structure this show is that Charlie's a motivational speaker.
Marc:He comes from this.
Marc:He was unhappy.
Marc:Something happened.
Marc:The event, the moment of clarity.
Marc:And now he sees life this way.
Marc:He sees it.
Marc:He sees the truth.
Marc:Now, whether you disagree with his truth or whatever, or whatever you think of it, I mean, that's what he's doing.
Marc:So I said that would seem to be the structure.
Marc:I didn't really know what to do.
Marc:But I tried to help this guy out.
Marc:I think I tried to help Charlie out.
Marc:But now it turns out he wants me to come by there because, you know, there's been some problems with times and this and it's all flying by the seat of his pants.
Marc:Can you come by?
Marc:Come by the Four Seasons and, you know, sit down with me and Charlie.
Marc:And then a couple other things came to my mind.
Marc:Do I reach out to this guy?
Marc:Do I try and help him?
Marc:Do I try to get him to take care of himself?
Marc:Is that what I'm being asked to do?
Marc:Or do I just go to the center of this dark vortex that is arguably the center of international pop culture right now is what's going to happen with Charlie Sheen?
Marc:And do I try to assess the situation from a proximity that few people have?
Marc:So I'm going to do that.
Marc:I'm going to open my mind, open my heart, and see where this guy's at and how I can help him, given that this situation is what it is.
Marc:Charlie Sheen is making the decisions, but I have a little trouble in my soul about it.
Marc:I think the guy needs help, but maybe he doesn't.
Marc:I get to assess that.
Marc:I'm going to assess it.
Marc:I guess I'll feel it out when I get there.
Marc:I don't really know what to expect.
Marc:I stay away from this type of stuff.
Marc:But there is something happening in show business.
Marc:There's something I can't quite understand where, and I've always said this, I said, you know, once they started having entertainment tonight, once those news shows that focus basically on show business and behind the scenes of show business, that the illusion has been broken.
Marc:There was always a distance.
Marc:There was always an illusion.
Marc:We were all part of the illusion.
Marc:We were entertainers.
Marc:We didn't need to know what was going on.
Marc:And then the tabloids started taking over, almost like a cancer.
Marc:Is there a truth to them?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Is it sorted?
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:Is it what people want to see?
Marc:Is it what humanizes these people?
Marc:Is this what huge stars look like as human beings?
Marc:Is tabloidism becoming the new paradigm for entertainment?
Marc:There's some sort of shift going on.
Marc:That we live in a culture that constantly needs content.
Marc:And a lot of people break under that pressure.
Marc:How do you switch up that content?
Marc:How do you keep it original?
Marc:Well, if somebody is untethered, you never know what the fuck they're going to say.
Marc:How much more original can you get?
Marc:Is it right or wrong?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:There's always been a problem with the illusion.
Marc:But Charlie Sheen is what it looks like when the illusion shatters.
Marc:and the appetite for that process of becoming fragmented, charismatically fragmented, and with enough people who know who you are, they just want to see.
Marc:They want to see what happens, what those fragments look like, what the shattering looks like.
Marc:How much control does he have over this game?
Marc:Those are questions I have, but this is marking a shift in show business.
Marc:You know, it was always sort of difficult back in the day.
Marc:One hit wonders.
Marc:But if you could make enough money off that one hit, it wasn't so bad.
Marc:He certainly made enough money off of other stuff, but this is something else.
Marc:This is a baptism in fire.
Marc:An involuntary reinvention due to a shift in perception that is engaging people
Marc:And dangerous.
Marc:This is fucking psychic, emotional skydiving here.
Marc:I just want to go see what's going on with that guy.
Marc:I want to see how much trouble he's in.
Marc:That's where I stand right now.
Marc:Those were my thoughts in that moment.
Marc:Now, I will tell you now that the motivational speaker idea was dead in the water.
Marc:But I did go over to that hotel.
Marc:I did sit down with Charlie Sheen.
Marc:And this fella, this promoter, and one of Charlie's goddesses, as he calls them.
Marc:And we talked a bit.
Marc:And I really think in my mind and in my heart that I wanted to help out.
Marc:I have a sensitivity to the state of mind that he's in.
Marc:I was brought up around that state of mind occasionally.
Marc:There's an intensity to it, a mania to it, a clarity to it.
Marc:It's pretty amazing.
Marc:He was much like he was in those interviews.
Marc:He's a little more laid back, but his resolve was certainly in place.
Marc:And I was fascinated.
Marc:That's why I went over there.
Marc:I wanted to see if I could help out.
Marc:I wanted to see if there was any vulnerability there around the situation he's in.
Marc:And I also wanted to hear him out.
Marc:And I wanted to try to help him put a show together.
Marc:I wasn't expecting anything.
Marc:I wasn't asking for money.
Marc:I was fascinated like everybody else.
Marc:There's something that revolves around this sheen.
Marc:There's a there's a sense.
Marc:It's a million different things that are going on in people I talk to and in the way it's being received.
Marc:There's concern.
Marc:There's fascination.
Marc:There's anger.
Marc:There's excitement.
Marc:There's suspense.
Marc:There's disappointment.
Marc:Some people feel disgusted by it all.
Marc:But I could not turn down the opportunity to try to help the guy out, but also to see what the hell was really going on over there.
Marc:So we talked for a while and he listened and I tried to get a sense of the show he wanted to put on.
Marc:In my mind, I was going to get him to do what I do.
Marc:In my mind, I was going to say, well, Charlie, I think you should be honest.
Marc:I think you should talk about your real feelings.
Marc:Talk about your pain.
Marc:Talk about your sadness.
Marc:Talk about your fears.
Marc:I mean, that's the way my brain works because you know what I do here on my show every day.
Marc:I thought that maybe this was time for Charlie to break down and just come clean about his sadness and fear and pain.
Marc:And I was going to go in there and try to project the way I do my thing onto this guy, onto Charlie Sheen, who is in this state of clarity and anger.
Marc:Within five minutes of sitting there, I realized that I'm not even going to suggest that shit.
Marc:This dude has an agenda.
Marc:He has a vision.
Marc:And many of you have heard part of that vision.
Marc:But there's a bigger vision there.
Marc:It's almost Blake-ian in its scope.
Marc:So I talked to him for a few minutes, and I said, look, I think you got to tell some stories.
Marc:This is a great opportunity for you to get intimate and really deal with this thing and take it head on.
Marc:He seemed open to that.
Marc:And I thought, okay, well, I've done my bit.
Marc:I can't commit to anything here.
Marc:Yeah, good luck with everything, and I wish you the best.
Marc:And I left.
Marc:And then the next day, I get a text from the promoter.
Marc:He says, well, look, you know, he got a good vibe from you.
Marc:Why don't you go up to the house and see if you can help him put this thing together?
Marc:And I'm a little nervous.
Marc:I'm like, I really don't have time.
Marc:I got my own things I got to do.
Marc:But again, fascinated, curious, concerned.
Marc:I said, okay, let's do it.
Marc:And also, again, wired to interface with even the slightest mania emotionally.
Marc:So I go up to his house and I am amazed to find that there is a full video production crew there.
Marc:There are prompter guys there.
Marc:There are boxes of t-shirts.
Marc:There's a lot of things going on at the estate up there.
Marc:It's a beautiful house.
Marc:This guy's got everything.
Marc:Everything you could possibly want in terms of success.
Marc:He has it.
Marc:And I walk in and he's there with a few other people.
Marc:They're going over the show outline.
Marc:They're going over video montages.
Marc:He's got a vision here.
Marc:I thought maybe he'd do a one man show about his pain, but that he's got a vision.
Marc:There's their video montage.
Marc:There's elements here.
Marc:There are things he wants to say.
Marc:There's a long... I don't even want to spill it because I know people are going to go see it, but this guy has a poetic vision.
Marc:He has clarity in the state he is in.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:But I hung out, listened to what he had to say, threw in a couple ideas about structure, a couple of transitions, a couple of taglines, and just watched the process.
Marc:I did that for a few hours.
Marc:I went up there twice.
Marc:I didn't see any drugs around.
Marc:There was no booze around.
Marc:There was a lot of cigarettes.
Marc:A lot of cigarettes.
Marc:A lot of candy.
Marc:A lot of donuts.
Marc:Food.
Marc:Also a lot of healthy drinks.
Marc:I guess one of the goddesses is a vegan.
Marc:Charlie was eating healthy.
Marc:There was just a lot of people putting a lot of work into making this spectacle, this show, this event into something.
Marc:And now I see today that there's more flack coming at him, that he seems to be angry, more angry.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I don't even know how to say it.
Marc:It's a spectacle.
Marc:Never in the history of time have people bought tickets for something they have no idea what is going to happen.
Marc:I have to assume that many of them are expecting the worst, but I will tell you this.
Marc:He's going to go out guns blazing if he's going to go out.
Marc:And I don't know what is at the core of all this.
Marc:You know, I'm sensitive to his situation, both as a sober person and as somebody who has a father who's, you know, is extremely bipolar.
Marc:But I will tell you this.
Marc:He's very aware of what he's doing.
Marc:He wants to do it.
Marc:He's excited about doing it.
Marc:He's putting together a spectacle, a show.
Marc:It completely honors the state of mind he's in right now.
Marc:I really don't know what is going to happen.
Marc:But I want him to succeed at it.
Marc:Because the opposite of that might be necessary.
Marc:It might be horrible.
Marc:But I really want him to pull this off after meeting him.
Marc:And I also want to talk to him on this show.
Marc:After all this stuff kind of fades a little bit and eases up a little bit after the tour, I have no idea.
Marc:I have no idea what to expect.
Marc:But I did go up there trying to help.
Marc:I hope I did.
Marc:And we'll see what happens.
Marc:I keep doing that thing with my teeth.
Marc:I must be nervous about this.
Marc:It's unbelievable.
Marc:I'm sorry about the popping and the weird sounds.
Marc:I don't know what's going on with me today.
Marc:It must be the sickness.
Marc:It must be my nerves.
Marc:It must be the fact that the Charlie Sheen experience was very intense.
Marc:I didn't expect it in my life.
Marc:And I tell you, I don't know what I would do if I were him and all of that.
Marc:But he has an understanding.
Marc:It's his.
Marc:It is what it is.
Marc:Let's see what happens.
Guest:I did have one thought creatively, take it or leave it, just for whatever you're doing.
Guest:Do you want to hear it?
Marc:Yeah, if you move closer to the mic.
Marc:Is this okay?
Marc:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:I'm going to say it, and then you're going to get pissed or something.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:Why do you assume that?
Guest:That's fucking ridiculous.
Marc:All you can say is.
Guest:We know you were saying that you're this guy, and you do these shows in your garage, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:Having now listened to a great deal of the podcast.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That never enters my mind ever.
Guest:Your status.
Guest:In other words, you come across and I think are perceived.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As a successful, relevant and important person.
Guest:Oh, but you know I'm right.
Guest:And so and so and because you are.
Guest:And so... Wasn't always like that.
Guest:No, but that's true of everybody.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But so my point is, is that the idea that the show is about, like, I'm just this guy who does this show in my garage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But the reality is, that's really not... I realize that that's your narrative, but that's not at all what I see, you know?
Guest:Like, it's not... Yeah.
Guest:And what is genuinely true is the reason you're doing these...
Marc:being able to do these interviews with people is because you're not just some random guy i think that's true but i think that it became true as the show became popular with people in the community i think that if i were to ask ben stiller or anybody you know in month one unquestionable right so i think that to characterize me not necessarily as a loser but i mean the truth is this is what i'm doing whether it's popular or not i don't think
Marc:plays into what we build the show around.
Marc:I mean, I'm still living the life I'm living.
Marc:It's not like I'm leaving the garage and getting in a Bentley.
Guest:Right, but it's totally separate from... So you don't have a Bentley, but you're still not this random schnook doing these.
Guest:You're a legitimate...
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You're a legitimate, relevant entertainer.
Guest:And so for the narrative to be that I'm this random guy and look at me, I'm interviewing Judd Apatow, that might be what you're thinking.
Guest:It just doesn't feel like that at all.
Guest:It's, oh, Mark Maron and Judd Apatow are having an interesting conversation.
Marc:Well, that's because you're in my same community.
Marc:I mean, outside of the people that know the podcast or may have read the New York Times article, they have no idea who I am.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, I'm talking to Michael Showalter.
Marc:who has driven to the Cat Ranch with his lovely assistant and tour manager.
Marc:Can I say that?
Guest:She's my girl Friday.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Marc:You're on a book tour.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:How's that going?
Marc:You drawing?
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:The book is Mr. Funny Pants.
Marc:It's got a drawing that I assume you did.
Guest:Well, I traced a picture of myself.
Guest:Oh, you mean that I did the lettering?
Guest:Yeah, I did all that.
Marc:I did all that artwork.
Marc:Because you're an artist.
Marc:I am.
Marc:You're a drawer.
Marc:I'm a doodler.
Marc:But, I mean, isn't it more than that?
Marc:I mean, aren't you really a guy that likes to draw?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I am really a guy.
Marc:Because, I mean.
Guest:I thought you meant, or am I drawing audience members is what I thought you said.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:That's what I thought you meant.
Marc:I am.
Marc:I did mean that.
Marc:But then I got off on the other thing because.
Guest:I love to draw.
Marc:Like you do it a lot.
Marc:All the time.
Marc:It seems to me that it's a secret passion.
Guest:Yeah, it's not even a secret passion.
Guest:It's just a passion.
Marc:But do you exhibit?
Marc:Do you take it seriously?
Marc:Do you consider yourself a visual artist?
Guest:I'm moving into that.
Guest:I'm moving into having discussions about that.
Guest:We're moving towards discussions.
Guest:I'm trying to do a book.
Guest:I'm trying to do a book of my artwork.
Marc:Because I see you as this guy that at one time was one of the goofballs in the state, and you and the rest of the fellas, I think the fourth one I've had on.
Marc:Is that right?
Marc:Yes, it is.
Guest:And you know I know the answer because you know I've listened to all the podcasts.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I actually had to count because there's a few I want to talk to.
Marc:Tom, David, Mike, and me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the fictional one.
Marc:Troy.
Marc:Do you want to play it like it's real?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, that's between you and whoever Troy was.
Marc:Did that upset you?
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:Of course not.
Guest:I'm not easily upset.
Guest:But you've got to have Ken Marino and Joe Latruglio on the show and Kerry Kenney.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:I got to track them all down.
Marc:And Kevin Allison.
Marc:Kevin, of course.
Marc:I've done his show twice.
Marc:I should have him on.
Marc:But then you evolve into a stand-up performer, a screenwriter, a film director.
Marc:Now a writer.
Marc:You're also teaching and you draw.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You're a renaissance man.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Do you play an instrument?
Marc:I'm a, what do they say?
Guest:I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.
Guest:Well, that's a negative way to say renaissance man.
Marc:I do not play an instrument.
Marc:I like music.
Marc:You don't play an instrument?
Marc:Nope.
Marc:See, you always strike me, like if I, and I think we've had problems before, but we're past them.
Guest:But I was sort of hoping to talk about that only because... I'll talk about it in a fucking second.
Guest:Only because I feel like, do I get the apology too or is it just David?
Marc:I feel like I've apologized to you before.
Marc:So no.
Marc:If you want a public apology.
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:This is about David.
Guest:This is just about do I get that too.
Marc:Well, you didn't annoy me quite as much as David in the same way.
Marc:What's interesting about all you guys, about Michael specifically, about the Stella guys, that was the other thing you did Stella, which falls under the performer thing.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You all exuded to me a certain unique, unto yourselves, a type of arrogance that I found annoying.
Marc:Off-putting, yeah.
Marc:And yours is different.
Marc:Michael was very precious.
Marc:Not Michael.
Marc:David was very precious in his arrogance.
Marc:He always felt like he felt he was special to me.
Marc:And Michael was just sort of prickly to me.
Marc:But you had sort of like an intellectual brooding distance.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:That's the best kind of distance.
Marc:No, I think so.
Marc:I'm guilty of it.
Marc:I'm a new man, man.
Marc:I'm processing.
Guest:What's so ironic is a couple of things.
Guest:Do you remember, and I bet you don't.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:That when Stella...
Guest:First started.
Marc:At the basement.
Marc:In Fez.
Guest:At Fez, yeah.
Guest:We did a big photo shoot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you remember this?
Guest:Keep coming.
Guest:It was me, David Wayne.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Michael Black.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The guy that was the band leader of the show.
Guest:What was his name, Blue?
Guest:Mr. Blue.
Guest:Mr. Blue, I remember that guy.
Guest:Janine Garofalo.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And one other person.
Guest:Me.
Guest:You.
Guest:And that was in the very beginning.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was that this was, I think it was the Village Voice.
Guest:I think it was the arts, you know, the kind of the... Did you include me in that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How come?
Guest:Because as everyone has said, we, you know, the irony of you kind of doing all these mea culpas and what dicks we were is that we always saw you as this amazing comedian that we wanted to be associated with and whose work we really admired.
Guest:What's wrong with me?
Guest:You know I know what's wrong with you.
Guest:I hate everybody.
Guest:I hate everybody.
Marc:You don't, though.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's my first knee-jerk reaction.
Guest:My very first thought is, I hate you, no matter what.
Marc:But isn't that really just like me in a different language?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, I mean, it doesn't really even count.
Marc:I mean, I can't even say, like, if people mistake me as a misanthrope, I'm like, that is so wrong.
Marc:I mean, I'm just defensive.
Marc:I'm preemptively defensive, and I assume I'm gonna get hurt somehow, and I assume that people are assuming that they're better than I am.
Marc:All the assumptions are horseshit.
Guest:For me, it's if I assume other people are as judgmental as I am.
Guest:Why wouldn't you assume that?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You're sitting there judging everybody.
Guest:Exactly, so I'm thinking if you...
Guest:are as filled with hate as I am, then I'm in trouble.
Guest:So you must hate me, even though I don't know that they're probably not thinking that, but that's what I'm thinking.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So to start where I want to go with you is a couple of questions first, and we're going to come around to the book.
Marc:You know, I don't really have a plan, but like, I know that you're teaching college.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:How many classes?
Marc:Are you a visiting professor?
Marc:Are you...
Marc:Are you being paid?
Marc:Was it something you did out of desperation, out of love?
Marc:What?
Guest:Okay, so it started as absolutely not being to deal with the incredible rollercoaster ride of the entertainment industry in terms of you do something, you get your hopes up, then it gets canceled in my case.
Guest:And then you have these insane lulls where you're waiting for the next big thing.
Guest:And I wanted a job.
Guest:I just wanted a job that I could count on that put money in my pocket.
Guest:I didn't care how much money it was.
Guest:Just I wanted to know that at the end of the day, I was working because I get a lot of self-esteem out of that.
Guest:And so I started teaching classes at the People's Improv Theater, just writing classes, comedy writing classes.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:I really liked it.
Guest:I enjoyed it.
Guest:I made a little money.
Guest:And it gave me a little bit of a feeling of, well, you know what?
Guest:At the end of the day, if nothing else works out, I can do this.
Guest:And then...
Guest:After a couple years of that, this NYU thing opened up at the Graduate Film School.
Guest:I took an interview.
Guest:A year later, they called me back.
Guest:They said, there's an opening.
Guest:Why don't you come start teaching?
Guest:And now I've been teaching there for five years.
Guest:At NYU film?
Guest:At NYU grad film.
Guest:I like to say grad film.
Guest:Because that's better.
Guest:That's the more well-known and impressive thing to say.
Marc:So it's interesting to me.
Guest:Yes, I get paid.
Guest:I'm not a full professor.
Guest:I'm adjunct faculty.
Guest:So I'm not full-time.
Guest:And I teach one class per semester.
Guest:And I do office hours.
Guest:So it works out to about 10 hours a week.
Marc:The reason I ask that is because in my mind, that was always my plan B. For some reason, I think you and I are similar in some ways.
Marc:I'm sure that if I were to go to your house, you'd have probably as many books.
Marc:You would probably have... You seem like a guy that was, outside of everything creative, aspiring to be an intellectual.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And also, I was under this impression that I had an interest in teaching and sharing.
Marc:That was always my sort of plan B, was this idea that I could or would teach.
Marc:But I didn't do it, even in my darkest moments.
Marc:So I guess I was just curious in that, and you gave me an honest answer, that you were looking for something solid and something proactive.
Guest:Unquestionably.
Marc:And do you see yourself in academia, I mean, ultimately?
Guest:I genuinely love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:And I like it.
Guest:It's creative.
Guest:It's actually a lot like doing performance.
Guest:It's like doing performance live because you got to be on.
Guest:You got to be on for three hours and you've got to hold their attention and inspire them and get them thinking and argue if necessary and debate.
Guest:And it's very stimulating.
Guest:And there's an element of that I care.
Guest:There's a small element of that I care and want to see them do well.
Guest:I really do.
Marc:I want to see them do well.
Marc:But mostly it's about you and feeding your being looked up to.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They don't know who I am.
Guest:They don't know who I am because most of the film students at NYU are foreign.
Guest:They're from this very multinational student body.
Marc:Do you tell them who they are?
Marc:Do you give them state DVDs or maybe Wet Hot American Summer?
Marc:No.
Guest:When they look at your credits on the syllabus, they don't... Some of them know who I am, but they all want to be famous film directors.
Guest:So, I mean, they don't...
Guest:They don't act like they care right now.
Marc:I think that it's a pretty noble undertaking, being a professor.
Marc:I envy it.
Marc:I think you'd like it.
Marc:I'm sure I would like it.
Guest:It's very fulfilling.
Marc:Yeah, I just have to get past this, having sex with 22-year-olds, and then maybe I'll look into being a professor.
Marc:It's not as hard as you'd think.
Marc:I don't know if you know me that well.
Marc:You just... All right.
Marc:No, obviously I'm not doing that.
Marc:Of course not, Mark.
Marc:No, 25 is really my...
Marc:I thought you had a girlfriend.
Marc:I did for a while and she might be reintegrating.
Marc:There was a lot of drama there.
Marc:That's what I heard.
Marc:Where'd you hear that on the podcast?
Marc:On your podcast.
Marc:Who told you that?
Marc:On your podcast.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:You went to Brown.
Marc:yep you did right so the other guys you know you all they a few of them went to nyu but brown yeah i went to nyu my freshman year and then transferred to brown brown's one of those it's is it an ivy league or is it one of the almost ivy league it is an ivy okay man don't see you look it is an ivy league school but i'm not going to pretend that i that i didn't want to go to an ivy league school i did no i'm getting that but but i mean it is like the groovier of the ivy league schools it's one of the groovy ivy league schools
Marc:Right, like I believe my friend Sam Lipsight went to Brown.
Marc:Absolutely, I know Sam.
Marc:Yeah, I believe that George Harrison's son went to Brown.
Guest:Not when I was there, but Ringo Starr's daughter was there when I was there.
Guest:So maybe it's a Beatles sing.
Guest:Yeah, Ringo Starr's daughter was at Brown when I was at Brown.
Guest:What compelled you to go to Brown?
Guest:Could you not get into Harvard?
Guest:I didn't apply to Harvard.
Guest:I went to NYU, didn't like it.
Guest:And the reason I didn't like it is because I was the smartest person in all my classes.
Guest:I wanted to be the least or almost least smart.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But not as a professor.
Guest:Like I wanted to be around smart people, but not be the one that was being called on to give, you know, like, what do you think, Mike?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Michael knows everything.
Guest:Let's ask Michael.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right.
Right.
Guest:And what did you study there?
Guest:I studied... This is going to be great.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Semiotics.
Guest:Signs and Symbolism.
Marc:Correct.
Guest:Peter Wolin book.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Which is actually, I make fun of it, I sort of put it down, but the reality is I love it, and it's informed everything I've done.
Marc:Can you sum that up?
Marc:Because I took a semiotics class, and I studied film theory and criticism as my minor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Semiotics ends up becoming a part of art criticism, film criticism, food criticism, deconstruction, literary criticism.
Guest:It's anything.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's broad enough to be anything.
Guest:It's its own school of thought.
Guest:It's a philosophy.
Guest:It's a way of viewing the world.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So give it to me straight.
Guest:The most kind of simplistic way of describing it, and this is about my comprehension level of it is,
Guest:In a Western, we might meet John Wayne and John Wayne is wearing a white hat.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what does that white hat tell us about John Wayne?
Guest:Right.
Guest:What does it tell us about?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You tell me.
Marc:Oh, it tells us that perhaps he keeps his hats clean.
Marc:No, Mark.
Marc:Wait, it tells us that he's good.
Marc:That he's good.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But my problem with semiotics has always been, was that the intention of the director?
Marc:And then semiotics answers that, it doesn't matter, don't spoil our buzz.
Guest:What do you mean was it in the intention of the director?
Guest:Did the director put a white hat on John Wayne to symbolize that he's good?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Maybe not.
Guest:Okay, so but either and that's that's fine semiotics can there's room for that there's all it's a there would have there's room for that so so John Wayne wears the white hat and all we need to do is see him in his white hat and we already know he's the good guy and then The bad guy comes in and he's wearing a black hat and we already know and then we go oh he's the bad guy because his hat is black and
Guest:And the idea is that basically these visual things supply us with all this information that we are not conscious of.
Marc:My issue with it has always been, same with postmodernism on some level, though I love reading it, is that a lot of it seems to be an imposition and a sort of lyrical assessment of something that was completely unintended.
Guest:But it is.
Guest:See, in other words... Did you think you'd be talking about this?
Guest:No, but I'm thrilled to be talking about it.
Guest:Like another one that I think is interesting and worth you might be interested in because I know that you're a highly political person.
Guest:The news show.
Guest:So we take a network news show, any news show.
Guest:And they'll do the story about the death and the atrocity and the horrible things that are happening in the world.
Guest:And then they end the show with something happy.
Guest:Then they go, you know, that happened, but now let's go over to... Well, that's a happy ending.
Guest:And that is another form of semiotics where it's framing the news in a certain way to keep us feeling safe and to... And I don't think that the news people, they were doing it for ratings and just what worked.
Guest:And the semiotic approach is why?
Guest:Why does that happen?
Marc:Why do we do that?
Marc:As a definition, though, it is about signs and symbols.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And one of the things that the study of semiology of cultural sign processes, analogy, metaphor, signification and communication.
Marc:One of the great examples that was brought attention to my attention.
Marc:And it is actually how I look at film and learn to look at film.
Marc:Sometimes it's intended, sometimes it's not.
Marc:Sometimes there are cinematographers and directors that are so loaded up in terms of- Hitchcock.
Marc:Sure, and Coppola a little bit.
Marc:There's a scene in The Godfather where it was really the first time I understood semiotics was that it was the meeting between Sollozzo
Marc:And Don Corleone, you know, after they'd killed, after he'd been shot up.
Marc:And it was very clear that on Salazzo's side, this dude was dressed to the nines, had a slick shirt on, his hair was dolled up, you know, and behind him there were green plants in pots.
Marc:And then on the other side, when they cut over to Marlon Brando, unusual for Don Corleone.
Marc:Even he was in a brown suit.
Marc:His collar was loose.
Marc:He looked haggard.
Marc:There were photographs and pictures on the wall.
Marc:There was all this signs within the movie, within the mise-en-scene, within the frame, within the scene, to show the passing of the older generation.
Marc:But down to the plant.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So when I knew that that was real, and I can't argue that that was intentional in those frames, I was like, holy fuck, this is a much deeper art than I thought.
Guest:Yeah, and you're right, but that's even deeper than I could ever go.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I mean, to me, it's more about, I mean, it is that.
Guest:I'm only at the level of like, why do all romantic comedies seem to take place around Christmas?
Marc:But that's just marketing.
Marc:That's based on numbers.
Guest:No, no, I mean literally are set during Christmas.
Marc:Well, why the hell wouldn't it be?
Marc:There's a lot of expectation.
Marc:Christmas is a good time for everybody.
Marc:No one thinks Christmas, oh my God, death.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right, but that's semiotic.
Marc:Yeah, I know, but it's also planning.
Guest:But you're saying that as if they're mutually exclusive.
Marc:No, but it also has something to do with hermeneutics or something.
Marc:The narrative of story and endings.
Marc:I mean, there are ways that stories work.
Marc:Right, but this is... Now I gotta Google hermeneutics to make sure I used it right.
Guest:Yeah, I have no idea what that is.
Marc:Oh man, I hope I used it right.
Guest:Even if what you're saying is true, that's not interesting to me.
Guest:I see it as that the reason that it's almost like survival of the fittest, which is over time we've realized that the best place to set a romantic comedy is during Christmas because of what Christmas symbolizes.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And then that ends up becoming a convention and a genre.
Guest:And then what happens is that people start setting their romantic comedies.
Guest:I'm talking about screenwriters.
Guest:Start writing their romantic comedies and they're set during Christmas, but it wasn't a conscious choice.
Guest:It was just like, oh, well, it's a romantic comedy.
Guest:So I have to set it during Christmas because that's when all other romantic comedies are set.
Guest:And then it becomes a cliche.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But if that writer is going, I'm gonna set my romantic comedy during Christmas for these very specific reasons that everyone associates Christmas with feeling good and family and yada yada, then it's not a cliche.
Marc:Well, I mean, a cliche can also be a business model, unfortunately.
Marc:I think once these things get redundant, that they think it's an easy thing to do.
Marc:It makes their work easier if the romance ends at Christmas.
Marc:Or there's tension built.
Marc:Like, how can they not be loving each other the night before Christmas?
Guest:Well, but it's actually New Year's Eve.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:New Year's Eve is one week away, and they get to have the big moment at the New Year's Eve party.
Marc:Yeah, I guess, I don't know.
Marc:Let's deal with the hermeneutics of the state.
Marc:So you go to Brown.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or the semiotics of the state.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because you guys talk about a fucking...
Marc:powerhouse that just scarred 11 and 12 and 13-year-olds in a good way, mentally scarred them to the point where they support almost everything you guys do, and congratulations on that.
Marc:You're welcome.
Marc:Do you ever think about that?
Guest:I've talked to all the guys about that.
Guest:I only think about it now that I heard you talking about it, and now you made me think of things only because I heard you talking about it.
Marc:Well, I mean that that thing, because of the nature of MTV at that time, just sort of burrowed into the comedic consciousness of a generation.
Marc:And somehow or another, unlike many other comedic performers, you guys have sort of grown up and they've grown up with you.
Marc:I mean, you all sort of went your own ways.
Marc:You've done your own projects.
Marc:And I think a lot of your audience is still from those kids that watched you on the state.
Guest:And some of them are watching it now.
Guest:In other words, some of them watch the state now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:What are your DVD sales like?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:I don't keep track of any of that stuff.
Guest:Who does that for you?
Guest:Which one of you guys?
Marc:Which one of you is the Jagger?
Guest:I pay no attention to it.
Guest:No one does?
Marc:No.
Guest:You don't get a check?
Guest:If I do, I wouldn't know about it.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:My checks go to a guy.
Guest:You should probably check in just out of curiosity.
Guest:But I did want to put in my two cents as to what I've heard you say about the state.
Guest:Can you remind me, refresh me?
Guest:Well, a lot of what you just said.
Guest:You said this idea of what is it about what you do that makes the fans stick with you or whatever, and then this thing you were talking to about how go-getter we were and self-promoting and stuff.
Marc:Well, I think you guys were one of the first guys.
Marc:I think that the grassroots campaigns around Wet Hot American Summer
Marc:around some of the other stuff that David did, and also just keeping them involved in your projects, I think it was good business and it was good to the fans.
Marc:I'm not negative about it.
Guest:I think maybe one of the things that I was thinking about when I was just thinking about this, and I'll speak just for myself, is that I'm not, and I think you know this, I think you feel this way, I'm not necessarily a comedian per se.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, really?
Guest:I think I'm not saying that to say that I'm not funny.
Guest:Why can't you laugh at anything I say that's making fun of you?
Guest:I'm laughing on the inside.
Guest:I'm laughing semiotically.
Marc:You're so serious.
Guest:No, I'm not.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:Ha ha.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Doody poop.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, I'm excited about being here.
Guest:This is like a big deal for me.
Guest:No, I'm excited you're here.
Marc:I think you are a stage performer.
Guest:Well, or that I like theater.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:It's not even about – I like musicals.
Guest:I like the theater.
Guest:And so my – you know, a lot of your show, you talk about stand-up comedians, and I know there's a whole world around that and a whole brotherhood and whatever.
Guest:The whole state thing, and I think a lot of the fans, quote unquote, aren't necessarily comedy fans.
Guest:No, I think that's true.
Guest:You know, they're just fans.
Guest:They're fans of you guys, yeah.
Guest:And the work, it just touched some chord in them that wasn't necessarily about comedy as much as just something different.
Guest:And so I think, I will say for myself, the whole comedy thing happened very accidentally.
Guest:What, before the state?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the state was a sketch comedy show.
Guest:It was a sketch comedy show, but we were all theater kids.
Guest:And we were theater kids, and I don't even mean necessarily actors.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:Like you were in high school theater?
Guest:Yeah, and I liked theater.
Guest:Did you do musicals?
Guest:I did musicals.
Guest:You sing?
Guest:I like to sing.
Guest:I'm not a good singer, but I love singing.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah, we're a bunch of theater camp kids.
Marc:I don't think any of you really owned or tried to establish yourselves as stand-ups.
Marc:I think you all are sort of hyper self-conscious about that.
Marc:Because dealing with people like me and hanging out at Luna and dealing with Louie and all the guys that were just trench comics, you guys were always very clear that those guys are the real comics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We're just trying to, and I knew I was a guy that was like, why the fuck are they in here?
Marc:But you know, Michael.
Guest:Is John Leguizamo a standup comic?
Guest:No.
Guest:Because that's the thing is like, you know, is, is, is, is, is, is, is Sandra Bernhardt a standup comic?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because I think I don't like calling myself, I would never refer to myself as a standup comedian, even though I've done a lot of what someone else might call standup comedy.
Marc:I think once you started doing it, the, the, the, the, the,
Marc:Audience had broke open that, you know, you were not expected to go to Rascals and middle for John Mulroney.
Marc:Don't know who that is.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I'm just saying that part of your growth was not going to Periwinkles in Rhode Island to middle or open for Don Gavin.
Yeah.
Guest:But it was also that, and I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.
Guest:We also came from a generation of when the comedy thing died.
Marc:It's died so many times.
Guest:All I know is it's back.
Guest:But I, but I mean, we, we, the whole standup comedy thing had peaked by the time we were ready to start doing standup comedy.
Guest:You could, the, it was, it was like the whole, uh, you know, you know, what Jerry Seinfeld that he'd already moved on and, and, and this, there were no comedy clubs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:they were always there but i mean the the truth of the matter is it was not even on you guys's radar and in in the in the big picture you did fine without it and it was probably a better choice but it was never the the goal of any of you never go like you know we gotta start doing open mics i wonder if i can open for marin uh at uh let me try and think of another name of the fucking club at at nick's in boston because i can drive four hours and i could probably drive him up there and i'll get 75 yeah we skipped that
Guest:You didn't skip it.
Guest:It wasn't even part of it.
Guest:If we hadn't done the state, it would never have been that.
Marc:No.
Marc:But that's the interesting thing is when I was in college, I was really moving more along the direction of what you guys were in.
Marc:I did stage troupe in college.
Marc:I wrote plays in college.
Marc:I was writing short movies.
Marc:And somehow or another, I'm like, this is really too complicated.
Marc:If I can just stand up there and tell jokes, that would be good.
Guest:And did you have...
Guest:that thing of you did it and you're like, I have to do this again, I'm being sucked on.
Marc:Sure, I had no idea when that happened, but it was definitely my life very quickly.
Marc:But I always had something in my heart around, you know, the life you live,
Marc:And we're not that we're just not that different.
Marc:No, we're not, Michael.
Marc:It's just that my craft was my craft.
Marc:And like, do I envy the fact that somehow or another you've got the fortitude and focus to write movies and then make movies?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do I envy the fact that somehow or another you've kept a social network together that you can do that stuff?
Marc:I do.
Marc:But I've grown to believe that it's just not something I'm necessarily going to focus on.
Marc:I can barely handle my merchandise right now.
Marc:You know, getting t-shirts out.
Guest:I'm impressed.
Guest:I'm actually going to say that I think you're doing a great job.
Guest:You've got an app.
Guest:You've got the website.
Guest:You've got the iTunes thing.
Guest:You've got merchandise.
Guest:You've got all this stuff going.
Guest:I think it's very synergized and very well put together.
Guest:Right, well, it's because I'm working with a lot of, you know, I'm hoping to.
Guest:You've got help, but the point is just that you, the way, and I say, the way you see yourself, I'm not sure, is how others see you.
Marc:No, that's, of course that's true.
Marc:You know, I feel pretty good about myself, and I think everything's going fine, but there are certain things that I'm impressed with, and like, you know, you did, you wrote the backstory, you directed it.
Marc:Yeah, I directed it.
Marc:And you starred in it.
Marc:I did.
Marc:Now, what was the feeling there?
Marc:How did you feel that went?
Marc:How did you feel the response was?
Marc:What did you, did you win?
Guest:I mean this 100%.
Guest:I wish I had not played the role.
Guest:I did not want to play the role.
Guest:I...
Guest:was happy to play the role.
Guest:But the idea was sort of like, this would be kind of like a, he did everything.
Guest:And that that could be something that could be taken advantage of in the promotion of the film.
Guest:So it was a good selling point.
Guest:I have profound and great respect for actors and the craft that they do and the amount of what they can do with material.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:I see dialogue and I...
Guest:I have one way that I can read it, and that's it.
Guest:It's done.
Marc:What do you see?
Marc:You're a comic performer, so are you the straight guy generally?
Guest:No.
Guest:In fact, when I'm doing my own material, when it's me just talking about my life on stage, I actually feel much more free and performative.
Guest:But when I'm playing a role, that's not me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The last time I saw you, I was very proud of you.
Marc:You almost came unhinged.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm going for that.
Marc:I'm going for that.
Marc:It's cathartic.
Marc:Don't tell me about it.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm going for that.
Marc:It feels good.
Marc:I saw you at the bell house and literally I was backstage.
Marc:Oh yeah, you were there that night.
Marc:No, I was there and I was going on after you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was carefully monitoring your performance to make sure that you weren't in trouble.
Marc:And how'd I do?
Marc:I think you did great.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like, it was one of those things where, you know, you're like, fuck it, I'm going to be honest.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm going to go there.
Marc:And then all of a sudden you were in the middle of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I knew the feeling.
Marc:You were like, no, where am I?
Marc:I don't even know if I'm in a hole or if I've said too much.
Marc:And now I'm not real clear how to exit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Is this just confessional or am I doing comedy?
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you had no idea how to get out.
Marc:No.
Marc:And I never do.
Marc:I never do.
Marc:Oh, and there was moments where I'm like, I'm very attuned to where he's at emotionally.
Marc:I'm just wondering when we have to go out and save him.
Marc:Which happens to me all the time.
Marc:I'm not sure he knows how to get out of this thing he's in, which is himself.
Marc:That always happens.
Marc:It does?
Marc:Oh, yeah, all the time.
Guest:You're telling me that people come on stage?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yep, it's happened many times.
Guest:Or I'll just sort of scream out like, you know, I'm done now, come get me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, like, is it a time issue or are they actually concerned, usually?
Guest:Oh, no, no, it's no.
Guest:No one's concerned.
Guest:It's good fun.
Guest:It's good fun, but it's also just as to do with the fact that I don't have, I haven't figured out how to end the bit, you know?
Marc:So what was the reaction to the Baxter?
Marc:Because it seemed to me that would be something you'd want to do more of.
Marc:How did you finance that?
Marc:How did you wrangle the money?
Marc:Did David Wayne help you?
Guest:Nope.
Guest:That movie was fully financed and distributed by IFC Films.
Guest:It wasn't actually like I wrote a screenplay and a studio made the movie.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It was all above board.
Marc:So you didn't have to go try to find investors or anything?
Marc:Nope.
Guest:I mean, the budget for the Baxter was...
Guest:a tiny, tiny shred over $1 million.
Guest:What was your experience with directing?
Guest:Did you love it?
Guest:Yeah, I loved it.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:I will be the first to say I don't think I'm a great director.
Guest:Were you concerned about semiotics?
Guest:Did you place plants behind Pixar?
Guest:Backstage was a very semiotic movie.
Guest:Very semiotic.
Guest:How so?
Guest:It's all about genre convention.
Guest:It's all about convention.
Guest:The whole movie's about what... It's all about the idea that
Guest:You watch a romantic comedy, and there she is.
Guest:It's Meg Ryan, and she's got this boyfriend, and he sneezes.
Guest:And the minute he sneezes, we know he's not the guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because if you have allergies, then you aren't a man.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then Tom Hanks walks in, and he has no allergies, and he's drinking a beer.
Guest:And you had Michelle Williams.
Guest:Williams, yep.
Guest:It was a big deal now.
Guest:I'd seen her in that... I mean, I knew who she was.
Guest:She was in The Station Agent.
Guest:I'd seen her in that...
Guest:satirical movie about Richard Nixon.
Guest:I can't remember what it's called at this exact moment.
Guest:I was a fan of hers and I thought she was perfect for this role.
Guest:I begged her to play the part.
Guest:So you were intellectually aware as a director that you were busting a genre.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:The whole movie is about a romantic comedy seen through the eyes of a wrong guy.
Guest:And so it was what if
Guest:you know, what if any Nora Ephron movie were spun to the side and it was this guy and not that guy?
Guest:What would it look like?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Does it have a cult following?
Guest:Do people love it?
Guest:Yeah, they do.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Well, that's a good thing.
Guest:And so to answer that part of the question is when it came out, like so many other things I've done, the response was crappy and a lot of people said mean things about it and no one went to see it.
Guest:That must have fucking killed you.
Guest:It did.
Guest:I mean, I can't even imagine you in that particular situation.
Guest:It did, but, and I mean this, it was a feeling of, I did this and no one can ever take that away from me.
Guest:No matter what mean things people say, I did this.
Marc:Have you ever thought about the culture of provoked competition, though?
Marc:Now this is a fairly new thought for me, that I realize, from Twitter and from the internet, that all you get are people trying to cause trouble.
Marc:I don't even know if they're aware of it, but a lot of times these trolls and these people like, hey, you ought to talk to so-and-so because he said this shit about you.
Marc:Everybody's looking for competition.
Marc:Everyone's looking for confrontation.
Marc:Everybody's trying to get a rise out of everybody else because that has become some sort of facsimile of human engagement.
Marc:If people like something, does that mean it's a failure?
Marc:Right, and why can't people who don't like something, if they can't have a constructive way of saying it, just shut their fucking mouths?
Guest:Right, so my honest reaction to any question about anything I've ever done, there's some things I've done that I'm not proud of, but I'm very proud of The Baxter.
Guest:I like The Baxter.
Guest:I think it's a good movie.
Guest:Yeah, everybody loves it.
Guest:And ultimately...
Guest:It's for the people who like it.
Guest:And that's what my intention was in the first place.
Guest:Do I wish that more people had liked it?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But but not to the point where I'm going to go back to it and say that it was any form of a failure because it wasn't because the people who like it and from my impression is that people are seeing and know about it now more than ever is that.
Guest:It came out great, and people like it, and what more could you ask for?
Marc:What do you take from that, I mean, obviously you've sort of had to grow into this.
Marc:And I know the last time I talked to you, you experienced some disappointment.
Marc:Some rejection.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Some rejection.
Marc:You know, but after a certain point, you can't take it personally.
Marc:But some of this rejection and some of the ups and downs and the the the ego bashing has driven you into academia.
Marc:I mean, how do you manage this stuff now?
Marc:I mean, what is your process?
Marc:around not becoming immobilized.
Marc:Because that day, and I'm not talking out of school here, that you were gonna do the live one, you were very upset.
Guest:No, I was upset when we talked on the phone.
Guest:And I would say that just seeing what you've done, at the end of the day, you gotta do what you love to do.
Guest:And let the chips fall.
Marc:Even if you hate it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, I mean, in the final analysis, I'm somewhat starting to think that I may not be LA material.
Guest:that I might not be Hollywood material.
Guest:And... But you know you can find a quality of life up here, but you do seem very Brooklyn.
Guest:But I don't mean a quality of life.
Guest:I have no issue culturally.
Guest:It's not about where I'm living.
Guest:I'm just saying I may never be the guy who... I may never be the guy with the big Hollywood comedy movie that... But you've tried.
Guest:I've tried.
Marc:You've banged your head against that wall.
Guest:Yes, I've banged my head against that wall.
Guest:And it's a big, huge bummer.
Guest:And the realization is...
Guest:I don't even love those movies.
Guest:I don't even go to see those movies.
Guest:What I like going to see, you know, honestly, and this might sound I don't want this to sound, you know, pretentious.
Guest:It's just true.
Guest:I like to go to see a play in New York or I like to go see
Guest:you know, a smaller film.
Marc:I just saw a play.
Marc:It was spectacular.
Marc:What did you say?
Marc:Tim Robbins' Break the Whip, I think.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He wrote it?
Marc:He wrote it and directed it, and it's unbelievable.
Marc:Yeah, and that's moving to me.
Marc:That's what actually I connect to.
Marc:He really was able to integrate theater, movement, his politics to some degree.
Marc:He basically set out to make a theatrical interpretation of Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:But they chose one story that really took place in a pre-America America at the Jamestown Colony when there was starvation and when Indians or indigenous people started to get integrated and then slaves got integrated.
Marc:He pulled a story from history, integrated real indigenous American Indian language in,
Marc:and integrated these class issues that were clearly apparent during that time.
Marc:He was really able to get everything in there.
Marc:A labor of love.
Marc:Yeah, and there was a lot of actors, a lot of moving around.
Marc:They did it in the Comedia dell'arte style with masks.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So there were no clear identities that could be put on characters necessarily.
Marc:Everyone played many characters.
Marc:To me, it actually threw me into this turmoil over...
Marc:what i do in the sense not not in the sense i was disappointed but like i i live in the world of emotions of human struggles in a very you know psychological and emotional way you know i want to know what's beyond the art you know in in my worst moments i think that art is an excuse for people to hide
Marc:In my best moments, I think art is a perfect expression that speaks to all those emotions and heightens it.
Marc:And that there's room for all of it.
Marc:Of course there's room.
Guest:There's room for all of it.
Marc:But like literally with Tim Robbins, like, you know, I get into these patterns with people in this room.
Marc:He almost changed your mind.
Marc:Well, it was just like, you know, I like talking to guys about what they come from.
Marc:I like guys who have a lot of stuff out there or maybe not or just comics.
Marc:And, you know, let's see where the guts of you is.
Marc:And because I want to see how it relates to me and it helps me.
Marc:But with like Tim Robbins, I was like, this guy just made a borderline masterpiece.
Marc:And, you know, is it necessary that I know about what happened to his marriage or what his childhood was like?
Marc:I see.
Marc:I see.
Marc:You know, because there's something to be said for that.
Marc:You know, there are certain creative people that don't want to talk about that shit.
Marc:They're just sort of like, look at the art.
Marc:I mean, Woody Allen for years.
Marc:I mean, if he hadn't become scandalous, I mean, he would have been just fine not talking to anybody ever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I'm saying, and I know you already know this, but you do what you do.
Guest:You do it as well as you can.
Marc:No, no, I'm not worried about it.
Marc:I don't know where we got off on this, but I think it was that you have an appreciation for things.
Guest:Yeah, and so if anything, it's about why am I trying so hard to be something that I'm not?
Guest:Not that I am trying that hard.
Guest:For money and fame.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so, no, right.
Guest:But I'm saying...
Guest:First of all, I haven't chased it that hard.
Guest:I mean, I never left.
Guest:I never neffed.
Guest:I never left New York.
Guest:You know, I dipped my toe in.
Marc:I saw you once at the Bourgeois Pig sitting out in front.
Marc:A few years back, you were like, I got something going on.
Guest:Yeah, I've done that.
Guest:I've done that.
Guest:And I have no, you know, to the people that are doing it, great.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Seriously.
Marc:Now, have you talked to Tom Lennon about this?
Marc:No.
Marc:I haven't.
Marc:I really haven't.
Marc:No, I'm not suggesting anything, but you know, it's interesting that his attitude is sort of like, yeah, make shitty movies for families.
Marc:Who cares?
Guest:If I could, if I could, honest truth is if I could, I would.
Guest:Do you guys talk?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a funny guy.
Guest:Totally hilarious.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I could do that, I would do it.
Guest:I don't think I can.
Marc:Were you the serious one?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Who was?
Guest:Oh, maybe I was Mike Black serious.
Guest:Mike Black is very serious.
Marc:Everybody's so sensitive.
Guest:No, I don't think any of us were the serious one per se.
Guest:But if I could write the big budget comedy, I would in a heartbeat.
Guest:But I can't.
Guest:So why am I trying?
Guest:Why am I trying?
Guest:Have you written another movie?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I tried writing one this fall and I just banged it against my head.
Marc:And what happened to Michael and Michael have issues?
Guest:Canceled.
Guest:It seemed like it was going well.
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was going well.
Marc:Did you start teaching before or after that?
Guest:I was teaching during that.
Guest:I was teaching classes and shooting that show at the same time.
Marc:I don't want to disregard this because there's a lot of people that love Wet Hot American Summer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, who wrote that specifically?
Marc:David and I wrote that together.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That is co-written.
Marc:That's like a classic.
Marc:That defined, and also a lot of the people in that have gone on to define comedy.
Marc:Huge.
Marc:And when you were making it, did you have any idea that it would have the impact it has?
Marc:And there was a lot of grassroots campaigning.
Marc:I was in New York at that time.
Marc:There was a lot of, like,
Marc:come see a screening at midnight and bring breakfast and, you know.
Guest:I know that I had high hopes of it being a classic comedy along the lines of Animal House, of what Animal House was to me.
Guest:That broad in appeal?
Guest:Well, I mean, that's, yeah.
Guest:I mean, one of the funny things about everything I've ever done, in particular, Stella, the TV show, not the web videos, but the TV show, is we in our hearts believed that we were making a broad comedy.
Guest:We really did.
Guest:We were like, this is finally, we've done the thing that everybody will get.
Marc:Now, Stella started as a stage show.
Marc:It was about you and Michael and David being sort of palsy on stage, a Brat Pack thing, but also showcasing music and short films.
Marc:And stand-up.
Guest:And stand-up.
Guest:It was a variety show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we went and started doing these videos and we were, you know, essentially the Marx brothers.
Guest:We were these forces of nature.
Guest:We had no past, no present.
Guest:I mean, no future.
Guest:We were just these weird guys.
Guest:We were always wearing our suits no matter what the circumstances.
Guest:And we were just these sort of ids.
Guest:We were just walking.
Guest:Was that a conversation you had?
Guest:Well, okay, guys were ids.
Guest:We're ids and suits.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:We talked about that all the time.
Guest:You guys are heady.
Guest:And so, but we did the, you know, we were like, but we can't do, you know, it's too weird what we're doing on the internet.
Guest:The TV show needs to be accessible and far reaching and broad.
Guest:And that's what we thought we had done.
Guest:And it was the opposite.
Guest:It was like the, you know, reviewed as the weirdest show ever.
Guest:And then, so the same thing is true of Wet Hot.
Guest:I'm like, this is just a big, broad comedy.
Guest:This is Porky's.
Guest:This is,
Guest:American pie isn't that interesting so what do you think the disconnect is?
Guest:The disconnect between what you thought and you and the guys felt and and what is I mean that has to be an intellectual disconnect yeah it is because I you know I still that still happens to me where I'll go I don't get it like how can not everybody like this more just or just less how can everybody not like this and more is why do some people hate it so much
Marc:Well, I think it was the same issue that Conan had to deal with, was that, you know, you guys are sophisticated.
Marc:You think about things.
Marc:In a meeting, you said, we're all just ids and suits.
Guest:And I think... Now that when you put it that way, now I think I understand.
Marc:That that I don't think that, you know, I don't think that conversation happens in the in the writer's room of Porky's.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If you have to have read Kierkegaard to understand it.
Marc:I don't think that you would have to read it to understand it.
Marc:But I think it's where you guys are coming from that in just five minutes ago, you said you can't make a big, a big.
Marc:uh right and i but i've only learned that through failing at it but i also think that what you did succeed in doing was creating a comedy nerd classic and and as you get older you realize that the community that that likes what you do are there for you yeah yeah totally well that's good yeah absolutely no i have i very little uh i very little negative feelings about any of it i used to i definitely was you did you grow up in an academic family yeah my both my parents are college professors
Guest:My father is a French professor at Rutgers and my mom was the first female chairman of the English department at Princeton.
Guest:That's pretty big.
Marc:Huge.
Marc:So you grew up in this world of books and events.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And going to lectures.
Marc:Completely.
Marc:And people at your house.
Marc:Tony Morrison.
Guest:All the people that taught at Princeton.
Guest:Tony Morrison.
Guest:Was at your house.
Guest:Joyce Carol Oates.
Guest:They were at your house.
Guest:Russell Banks at my house.
Guest:Now, how old were you?
Guest:I was my whole life.
Guest:It was until I graduated from high school.
Guest:I mean, my parents live in... Their friends are academics.
Guest:Are they together?
Guest:Yes, they're married.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:Yeah, and so, I mean, it's a whole kind of culture of faculty kids.
Guest:I mean, it's like we have our own life that we grew up in that...
Guest:then you get out of high school and go, oh wait, this isn't what everybody's life was like, and you realize how different it is.
Guest:Not that it's unique, but different, and you think it's not different.
Marc:Well, okay, so you're growing up in this.
Marc:Were there moments that perhaps were intellectually life-changing at dinners or events that you were at?
Marc:I mean, it would seem to me that when you're sitting there listening to your folks talk with Toni Morrison over dessert,
Marc:Or whoever else they may have been entertaining that that must have had some effect on you.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, but it's how, it was just, it was what people, you know, people talking about what, the cliche of a Woody Allen movie of how academics and intellectuals sound when they talk to each other.
Guest:Sure, talking about ids and suits.
Guest:Is very not a cliche.
Guest:That's actually what they do.
Guest:But you have that.
Guest:I guess so, but I wasn't like that.
Guest:I wasn't a good student.
Guest:No, I know, but still you have a high respect for intellectual discourse.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Unless it's bogus, which a lot of it is.
Guest:Yeah, even in academic circles.
Guest:Oh, yeah, even in the highest academic circles.
Marc:You can't remember any moment where you realized it was bullshit outside of just resentment for your parents at some phase in your life?
Guest:Oh, a moment, a moment.
Guest:I mean, no, I was...
Guest:To the extent that there was anything life changing would be that I knew more about sex.
Guest:I can't ever remember a time when I didn't know everything about sex, but it wasn't sex.
Guest:It was gender, gender, sex and gender and the way sex and gender interact and patriarchy and chauvinism.
Guest:That was your porn.
Guest:No, it was the opposite.
Guest:It fucked me up.
Guest:It did.
Guest:Yeah, it totally fucked me up because I was just a kid.
Guest:I liked playing soccer.
Guest:I liked comic books.
Guest:But I had this head full of gender politics.
Guest:So you're very sensitive to girls on the team?
Guest:No, it was more like I...
Guest:I didn't know how men and women could interact on just a primal level.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What I'm trying to say is that I had sex problems when I was a kid, Mark.
Marc:Well, you said it very intellectually.
Guest:And I think it's because, like, you know that book, Our Body, Ourselves?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I had that book on, you know, I was reading that book when I was three years old.
Guest:That's for them.
Guest:I know, but I memorized it by heart.
Guest:Because you wanted to weigh in?
Guest:You figured, like, if I got an angle on this?
Guest:No, it was just, here's a book.
Guest:I'll read it, you know?
Guest:And it's, like, pictures of...
Guest:pubic hair and all this crazy stuff.
Guest:The inside and outside of the vagina.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I'm like, you know, but I realized later on in life that like sex is not, I mean, it can be, but it's when you're discovering sex, it's not intellectual.
Marc:But let me ask you how- It's carnal.
Guest:And I had no connection to my body.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, I saw porn at a young age, and I probably didn't ever look at our bodies ourselves, but I did look at the joyous sex, which was... Oh, yeah, we used to steal Playboys behind the A&P, behind the supermarket.
Marc:Sure, but how did that affect your approach to women?
Marc:I mean, you had a head full of intellectual concepts about gender and sensitivity, and obviously an over...
Marc:You were overly educated in the way that women wanted to be seen.
Guest:There was a disconnect between my penis and my mind.
Guest:My mind understood and my penis didn't.
Guest:Your mind understood and undermined your penis.
Guest:And in a sense, I think when you're going through, when you're starting to blossom sexually, that the more ignorant and stupid you are about it, the better off you are.
Guest:I agree with that.
Guest:And I was way too,
Guest:So like I knew what a blow job was.
Guest:I knew what sexual positions were.
Guest:I knew what masturbation was.
Guest:I knew all about intercourse.
Guest:And yet I didn't know that like in order to masturbate, you had to touch your own dick.
Guest:Like you had to masturbate.
Guest:I just thought you'd wake up one day and you'd be in that part of your life where now I masturbate.
Guest:I didn't realize that there was any like.
Guest:You had to take action?
Guest:Yeah, take an action.
Guest:I didn't know I had to take an action.
Guest:I thought it was like chapter five.
Marc:Why isn't this happening?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:There must be something wrong with me because my penis isn't making me touch it.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Literally, exactly.
Marc:That's spectacular.
Marc:So that was tough, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Up in your head like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that was what I was talking about in a different subject at the Bell House, which was it was the same thing with drinking, which was that I thought I would one day have one glass of wine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that I would just wake up one day and drink one glass of wine and that would be that.
Marc:But at some point, you did drink a lot.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that, like, you know, now that you don't drink, that there's a fantasy of that.
Guest:But at some point... No, but when I was drinking, I was like, I drink like this now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But one day... Oh, okay.
Guest:I will just wake up, and it will be Chapter 7, the part where I only drink one drink.
Marc:Well, see, since we're similar in that, like, I overanalyzed sex and sexuality when I was younger to the point where it became...
Marc:It caused panic in me when the opportunity arose that there would be sort of like, God, I hope I do this right.
Marc:I mean, I read the book or I don't really know.
Guest:It's like you're outside of yourself watching.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But I also...
Marc:I think like you, you romanticized the people that I thought didn't have that problem.
Marc:The hard drinkers or the people that partied or the people that lived a rugged life or intellectuals that you may have respected.
Marc:When I shut myself down, when I shut off those fears of my childhood to become this other person, this angry drunk, it felt fairly...
Marc:decisive to me, that it wasn't me waking up going, what's happened to me?
Marc:It was like, I'm going to become this.
Guest:I didn't have that.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:No.
Marc:Really?
Marc:But you read comic books.
Guest:You didn't want to become a superhero?
Guest:Unless I'm misunderstanding you, it was, I am this now, but I won't be like this forever.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:And then it was, when am I not going to be like this?
Guest:Why am I still like this?
Marc:Well, when I got into it, I thought like I had control over it.
Marc:And then there comes a point where you're like, I become this for real.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's a rough moment.
Marc:So now moving into this, is any of this covered in Mr. Funny Pants?
Marc:I mean, this seems like some serious memoir stuff.
Guest:Yeah, it's in there.
Guest:It's in there.
Guest:It's a lot of this stuff I ended up not putting in there because it was tonally a little bit too much information-ish.
Marc:So this is a straight up memoir?
Marc:Because I went to look for pictures.
Guest:No, it's a meta memoir.
Guest:It's a lot of this book.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:All right.
Guest:A lot of this book is about writing the book and about my struggles in writing a book.
Marc:So I think it's something that- Was that your plan or did that happen organically?
Marc:So they were writing, you're going, when are you gonna give us a draft?
Marc:And you said, I'm having problems writing the book.
Marc:And they said, well, write about that.
Marc:More or less.
Guest:I mean, it's a little bit less pathetic than that, but I was writing the book.
Guest:It wasn't coming very well.
Guest:And I was pointed in the direction of reading a couple books that were very interesting.
Guest:Who's?
Guest:Jeff Dyer.
Guest:It's called Out of Sheer Rage.
Guest:It's a book about him trying to write the definitive story
Guest:autobiography, I should say, of D.H.
Guest:Lawrence.
Guest:And it's not about that at all.
Guest:It's about him failing at that.
Guest:Another book that I'd read when I was a kid that I loved, and I've mentioned this, called Tomfoolery, which was basically just you flip to any page and there's something fun there.
Guest:And I loved that book.
Guest:I enjoyed that book.
Guest:And so this is a lot like that, which is just stick this book in your bag or put it in one of the rooms in your house and you flip to any page.
Marc:Okay, well, that's good.
Marc:So that means you can read it on the toilet.
Marc:You're talking about a toilet.
Guest:I didn't want to say that, but yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But it's all clever, and it's all of a piece, and it's all, you know.
Guest:But there's actual poems in here?
Guest:Okay, and here's some drawings.
Guest:There's some drawings, poems, stories, lists, charts.
Guest:There's some real memoir in there.
Guest:There's some not funny stuff.
Marc:But you're mocking, I think, and I think we both run into this, that does your self-hatred manifest in the way that, like, you seem like the type of guy that wrote poetry seriously at some point in your life.
Marc:That's in there.
Guest:That's in there.
Guest:That's in my serious childhood.
Guest:But are you mocking it?
Guest:uh i'm presenting it as it was and i'm letting yes i'm not mocking it i'm i'm both mocking it and celebrating it at the same time i i'm i'm saying i mean it's bad dude i mean it's i don't know what yours looked like mine's real bad okay real bad so you're looking at something that you did as a youthful indiscretion i'm almost celebrating how seriously i took it yeah
Marc:Was there a time where you thought, this is the academia I want to pursue, I'm going to be a poet?
Guest:No, I wanted to be, before I got to college, I wanted to be, I thought in terms of my career, I would maybe be a cinema studies, teach cinema studies, and talk about film genre.
Guest:I think you're kind of doing that.
Guest:I am, and I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:And so then I went on a 20-year detour into this other thing, and now I'm kind of doing both.
Marc:It wasn't a detour.
Marc:You wrote a screenplay, you produced a movie, you appeared in movies, you've written two that were relatively successful.
Marc:So, I mean, it wasn't a detour.
Marc:This is the issue of self-hatred and unmet expectations and making ourselves crazy.
Marc:Is that like...
Marc:I'm in the position as well to look at some of my pursuits as a younger man that were very sensitive and a bit more sophisticated than I may see myself as now.
Marc:But when I talk about them, I have a certain matter of like, yeah, well, that was fucking...
Marc:Yeah, and I don't think that's necessary.
Guest:I think you're right.
Guest:I think you're totally right.
Guest:And it's a default.
Guest:You go to it, you make, you apologize for, you constantly apologize.
Guest:Weird, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:Because like, I mean, I can see that happening in the world of comedy, but you seem to have a certain sensitivity and acceptance around.
Marc:It's a bad habit.
Marc:Okay, all right.
Guest:It's a bad habit.
Guest:So are we gonna stop?
Guest:I want to.
Guest:I want to.
Guest:I feel like I curse too much on stage.
Guest:Oh, well, that's just, you know, some nights you just do that.
Marc:Because it's easy.
Marc:It's easy.
Marc:Yeah, but eventually it's all anyone can hear.
Marc:Okay, so tell me about the readings.
Marc:Are people who love Michael Showalter coming?
Marc:It's been great.
Guest:It's been fantastic.
Guest:Because that's a tough racket.
Guest:It's been so great.
Guest:Really, honestly, it's been... Where have you been?
Guest:We've been to Boston, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C.
Guest:Did two big shows in New York.
Guest:So you're doing actual shows?
Guest:Both.
Guest:I'm doing a show at night and a book signing.
Guest:Just you on the show?
Guest:It's just me.
Guest:I'm doing an hour.
Guest:I'm talking for an hour.
Marc:And what size rooms?
Guest:Between 200 and... The biggest show was about 500.
Guest:Oh, well, the show that I did in New York was with Nico Case, and there were 800 people there, 900 people there.
Guest:Average is about somewhere between 300, 300, 400 people.
Guest:Just for you?
Guest:Just for me.
Marc:Can you believe it?
Guest:Can you believe that?
Marc:I'm shocked.
Marc:I'm honestly shocked.
Marc:It's impressive.
Guest:I'm shocked.
Guest:How do you think they know you?
Guest:Through the stuff, through Stella, through Wet Hot, through the state, maybe even, you know, I think, as I said, I think the Baxter, somehow the Baxter has just in the last year or two become something people know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also, I think you ought to give yourself some real credit in terms of this desire to have some broad appeal.
Marc:I mean, you guys as a group and as individuals really have maintained a loyal fan base and you deliver to those people and they still love you.
Marc:I think that's nothing to shake a stick at.
Guest:No, and I think with the state, one of the things that I would have commented on about it at the time even was there was an aspect of like, that could be me and my friends.
Guest:That's what that looks like.
Guest:That's what people saw.
Guest:That's just a bunch of friends making a TV show.
Guest:and people thought that could just as easily be me and my group of friends because the jokes were inside jokes.
Marc:But you've all grown up in such unique ways and most of you have all remained in the business and still have sort of come into your own and you're still all friends?
Marc:Very much so, really.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:We really are.
Marc:Are we friends now?
Marc:You know I love you, Mark.
Marc:I love you, too.
Marc:Have we talked about everything?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You feel good about it?
Marc:I feel great about it.
Marc:You're going to leave here feeling good about it?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And you'll sign my book?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Thanks for talking, Michael Shullwalk.
Guest:Thanks for having me on the show.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:That's our show.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed that.
Marc:Me and Mike have more in common than I thought.
Marc:Of course, obviously.
Marc:Again, quick reminder on the dates.
Marc:I will be tonight, March 31st through April 2nd at the Comedy Club on Stage Street in Madison, Wisconsin.
Marc:I will be in Milwaukee at the Cramp and Adler Comedy Festival at the Turner Ballroom.
Marc:That's in Milwaukee, April 8th with Kristen Schaal and Eugene Merman.
Marc:I will also be...
Marc:In Australia at the Melbourne Comedy Festival, April 12th through 24th.
Marc:If you want to come to that, I'll be around.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com for all your WTF needs.
Marc:Get a t-shirt, get a mug, kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Go to JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:Get the apps for the iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch.
Marc:or droid you can hear all the episodes on any of those you can stream all of the early ones and of course obviously the most recent 50 episodes are always free you can go to wtfpodshop.com for some of those premium episodes and if you want to download the mencia or the robin williams a couple other ones up there along with the live from comic series they're all there a lot of options wow thanks for listening i've got to go do a live wtf now i'll talk to you later
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