Episode 1608 - Richard Gadd
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF?
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:I'm okay for now.
Marc:Cats are safe.
Marc:Kit is safe.
Marc:Winds are picking up today.
Marc:I don't...
Marc:I don't know what to do with that.
Marc:I don't imagine anybody has the brain to manage what is happening out here.
Marc:I'll talk about that in a second.
Marc:But I did pull myself away from the panic of being home and the need to be close to the cats if we needed to evacuate to go do a couple of gigs because I felt like I had to because if I didn't show up for that.
Marc:And look, again, this situation out here is fluid and it's tragic and it's fucking incomprehensible.
Marc:I went up to Sacramento and Napa at Sacramento Friday night.
Marc:And I, you know, I flew up there.
Marc:Ali Makovsky came with me and she opened.
Marc:But I was, you know, in shock and traumatized and fucked up.
Marc:And I had to move through it.
Marc:And I did it on stage for an audience that was incredibly supportive and understanding and understood what was happening in the world, the world of their state, Los Angeles.
Marc:People had friends, family there, here.
Marc:And it was kind of an epic experience for me to move through my feelings in real time, which is really what I do.
Marc:And I had not done an hour in a while.
Marc:And that was an incredible, incredible night.
Marc:And then we went to Napa.
Marc:We did a show in Napa.
Marc:That audience was difficult.
Marc:It was tricky.
Marc:I had a couple of outbursts.
Marc:Not outbursts.
Marc:One was supportive.
Marc:A woman needed to give me a gift.
Marc:And she needed to do that in the middle of the show and tell me how much she loved me.
Marc:And she gave me her little knitted cat and her...
Marc:of Brass Ganesh, which is actually very nice.
Marc:But it was it was interesting when that happens and I could handle it.
Marc:And then we had a drunk woman who was yelling and that had to be dealt with.
Marc:So it was a lot of up and down and me still being in a fairly fucked up, traumatized, vulnerable place and wanting to do the material that requires a certain presence of openness.
Marc:It was hard to kind of wrangle the anger in when people are disruptive or, you know, it's disjointed.
Marc:But, you know, that's the nature of comedy.
Marc:And we did OK.
Marc:Today on the show, I've got Richard Gad here.
Marc:He's the writer, actor, comedian, and the creator of the Netflix series Baby Reindeer, which had a profound effect on me.
Marc:I don't know if you've seen it, but to me it was deep and it was courageous and it was fucked up and amazing.
Marc:He won three Emmys for the show and his performance is nominated for a Screen Actors Guild Award.
Marc:And I'll give you a little more preface to him in a minute.
Marc:Hopefully I'll be in Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center Performance Hall on Friday, January 17th, this Friday.
Marc:Boulder at the Boulder Theater on January 18th.
Marc:I'll be in Santa Barbara, California at the Lobero Theater on Thursday, the 30th.
Marc:San Luis Obispo, California at Fremont Center on the Friday, the 31st.
Marc:Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, the 1st.
Marc:Iowa City at the Ingler Theater on February 13th.
Marc:It's a Thursday.
Marc:Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on Friday, February 14th.
Marc:And Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theater on Saturday, February 15th.
Marc:And then I'll be doing shows in North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all of my dates and links to tickets.
Marc:Knowing what to do in the face of what's happening, it's difficult.
Marc:It's been a stressful and terrible few days out here.
Marc:These fires are ongoing.
Marc:They're terrifying.
Marc:And I am lucky as of this moment.
Marc:I'm safe.
Marc:As I said, the animals are safe.
Marc:Kid is safe.
Marc:Kid's animals are safe.
Marc:Many people have lost everything.
Marc:And it's just fucking incomprehensible and tragic.
Marc:And it's heartbreaking.
Marc:But it was always a possibility out here.
Marc:It's just it's just fucking devastating.
Marc:And I just I feel awful for so many people that are dealing with the destruction of their entire lives.
Marc:Entire communities were decimated.
Marc:It looks like a fucking nuclear bomb went off in some parts of L.A.
Marc:County.
Marc:And quite honestly, having been there, it feels a little bit like post 9-11 here in terms of the collective trauma that people are moving through.
Marc:There was always the possibility of this.
Marc:It was part of the devil's bargain you exist with to live in this city.
Marc:Earthquakes, fires.
Marc:Some part of you was in enough denial or blind faith to just accept it and hope for the best.
Marc:Those days are fucking over, man.
Marc:It just seems that if you are a rational person, you would move as quickly as possible from this fucking city.
Marc:And I imagine many will.
Marc:And I am making plans.
Marc:I mean, fuck it.
Marc:This has always been possible.
Marc:And it's fucking time to go.
Marc:It's unsustainable.
Marc:I mean, checking the app for fires every few minutes.
Marc:And then I realized while doing that...
Marc:That this feeling of needing to check to see if you're in the path of destruction over and over, it's going to be a lot like checking your newsfeed after January 20th.
Marc:Where's the fire?
Marc:What has he done?
Marc:Am I safe?
Marc:Can I live my life freely without overwhelming fear?
Marc:I really don't know how I will manage in that much fear.
Marc:I am sorry about the heaviness.
Marc:I'm sorry about the heaviness of what I'm talking about.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:So, again, the cats are okay.
Marc:You know, they bounce back pretty quickly.
Marc:You know, they just... And they were okay in the hotel room.
Marc:You know, I really think, you know, when we self-evacuated that one night and I put them in the bathroom, you know, and then they all started running around the hotel room and...
Marc:Well, you know, within an hour, I think Charlie could have lived there.
Marc:He was like, this is OK.
Marc:I'm OK.
Marc:Manageable space.
Marc:You're here.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:This is where we are now.
Marc:Sammy, the moron, was kind of he came out to into the room.
Marc:He's like, I don't know where I am, but Charlie's here.
Marc:And Buster, the intelligent one, the sensitive one, he wedged himself under the bed.
Marc:But, you know, that's the way cats are.
Marc:And that's, you know, it's amazing how attached I am to those cats in these crisis.
Marc:And now they all have their own carrier for quick transport in the case of fleeing.
Marc:But, you know, you get attached to these animals.
Marc:And I, you know, I've always been amazed at how much my life revolves around them.
Marc:And I, I don't think that's sad.
Marc:I think that's just, you know, the way I love the things that I am capable of loving without fear.
Marc:I mean, I remember when I was divorced, I really, I thought like maybe I just better move into apartment and let this old house go, the old house.
Marc:I remember thinking, like, I can't do that because, you know, Boomer lives outside, and what the hell is he going to do?
Marc:So I'll just suck it up and take the hit because my outdoor cat would be displaced.
Marc:Those times have changed.
Marc:Displacement seems a certainty now.
Marc:So Richard Gad was here a few days ago.
Marc:It was just a day in or maybe a day and a half, two days into the horrendous fires out here.
Marc:And there is a point during the interview where, you know, we get a an emergency evacuation alert.
Marc:which turned out to have gone out to too many people.
Marc:It was not about my neighborhood, but it happened.
Marc:And you can sort of feel that moment of, you know, fuck, what are we doing?
Marc:Are we leaving?
Marc:Is it over?
Marc:What are we doing?
Marc:And a couple of things I should set up for this.
Marc:So in the conversation, you know, we talk about he did a couple of stage shows at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival that were the kind of the basis of Baby Reindeer.
Marc:And if you haven't seen it, I just want to, you know, in terms of reference here, you know, the Baby Reindeer series.
Marc:um, was based on a couple of different shows, things from a couple of different shows that Richard did.
Marc:One being, uh, monkey see monkey do.
Marc:And that, uh, was about the, the sexual, uh, abuse that he, um,
Marc:Was victim to as an adult by a person in the business and he was drugged and abused sexually.
Marc:And that was from Monkey See, Monkey Do.
Marc:And then there was another show that was actually called Baby Reindeer, which centered around a person who wound up stalking him.
Marc:And, you know, there's a lot of things going on with that.
Marc:When he says there are things he can't talk about, it's because Netflix is currently being sued by a woman who alleges that she was the one being depicted in the show.
Marc:And that is ongoing.
Marc:But this was an honest and, you know, connected talk.
Marc:And it's heavy.
Marc:I mean, it may be triggering for some people in terms of sexual abuse or stalking.
Marc:But I think it's handled personally and with a certain amount of process.
Marc:You know, it's grounded.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Richard is also nominated for Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a miniseries or television movie at the Screen Actors Guild Awards.
Marc:And I didn't know anything about him.
Marc:And I actually thought he was a bit older than he was.
Marc:And I didn't really know the nature of his theatrical work or his stand-up work.
Marc:So, you know, it was interesting to talk about that.
Marc:This is me talking to Richard Gadd.
Marc:I've been in LA this time, you know, for a while, but I was in New York and I was in Boston, San Francisco, a lot of different places.
Marc:Chasing the dream.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The comedy dream.
Guest:Gigging around everywhere.
Marc:Well, you know, when you start out, you want to kind of, you got to find a scene where you can work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, figure it out.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And boy, does it take a while.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I mean, I have no sense of like, you know, it's weird.
Marc:I went to England years ago near the beginning of the podcast and I had no sense of that scene there.
Marc:So it was a little weird because I wanted to interview people.
Marc:But I ended up interviewing Stuart Lee, which was great.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But then I also ended up interviewing Simon Munnery.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love Simon Monnery.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He had a thing called Film School, which was a show he did, and I'd always do alternative things at it.
Guest:It was one of my favorite nights to do, actually.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:It was kind of like he would do... It was like a projector, and he would do a lot of...
Guest:It was almost like a comedy show, but he had shadows with it.
Guest:He was making shadows with his hands.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Little doodles on pieces of paper.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would just almost commentate the shadow movements of his hands.
Guest:It was quite smart.
Guest:And then he would get a guest on and I would do five minutes of sort of alternative stuff.
Guest:And then he would come back on.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you came up in that in that in England.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, I came up in Scotland, so I started off in Scotland.
Guest:Like where in Scotland?
Guest:Yeah, so I started off, I went to school in Fife in Scotland, and then I went to Glasgow University to do an English degree, English Literature and Theatre Studies degree.
Marc:But you grew up there?
Guest:Yeah, I grew up in Scotland.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I went to Glasgow and I started doing it at the Student Union and then I started doing it at the Stan Comedy Club.
Guest:And the Stan Comedy Club, the Red Rose on a Tuesday, that was where I cut my teeth in a big way.
Guest:How long ago was that?
Guest:That was 2011, I think, if I think back.
Guest:So how old are you?
Guest:I'm 35 now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Do you think I was older?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That's what my life will do to you.
Guest:I've aged about 10 years more than I have.
Marc:So 2011, so about what, you know, like 15 years you've been doing stand-up?
Guest:Yeah, about 15 years.
Marc:And, like, what part of Scotland did you grow up in?
Marc:I have no sense of it.
Marc:Like, I had one, and I've talked about this a lot on the show, I had one horrendous experience at the Fringe that had nothing to do with anything.
Marc:Like, if I told you about it, you'd be like, that just sounds like...
Guest:the way it is yeah but for me it was like a month of just devastation yeah that that is what even when it goes well the fringe can be tough yeah i mean it's it's it's so funny because every time i would gear myself up to go to the fringe i would always think to myself i'm not going to let it affect me this month yeah it's it's one hour's work a night and i just need to get through it but whatever happened by the end of the month i would be like a dead man walking yeah it's so tough isn't it the adrenaline the circus of the city it's crazy
Marc:It is.
Marc:And if you don't draw crowds, it's like it's leveling.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I remember doing a month in and in fact, that's in Baby Ranger episode four.
Guest:I did a month in a pub called the Argyle Bar, which was right out of town.
Guest:Almost people who went to the Fringe didn't go to this evening.
Marc:How did you?
Marc:But who got you that venue?
Marc:You did?
Guest:I was so new.
Guest:I got myself that venue and I was so new that I think they were just like, who is this guy?
Guest:Let's just give him a really bad venue.
Guest:And I had to cancel it most nights because nobody came.
Guest:And then somebody, I remember this one time, one person turned up and I just took them to the bar for a drink instead.
LAUGHTER
Guest:So I really, I feel like I earned my stripes in a way, you know.
Marc:But like when you start out though, like what was the area you grew up in?
Guest:I grew up in Fife.
Guest:Fife.
Guest:Yeah, I grew up in a small town called Wormit.
Guest:No one's ever really heard of it, but it's about, it's just if you go to Dundee, which is like the fourth biggest city in Scotland.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just over the water.
Guest:So if you look over the water, it's there.
Marc:Is it pretty?
Guest:Yeah, it's quite pretty.
Guest:I quite like it, but it's a very small town.
Guest:It's got one shop and that's it.
Guest:Like when I grew up, there's no bar, nothing like that.
Guest:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:Got an older sister, yeah.
Guest:And so, like, how do you, what do you do?
Guest:Well, not very much.
Guest:I mean, me and my friends would just kind of...
Guest:I honestly, in a lot of ways, I wouldn't change it for the world.
Guest:But me and my friends would just mess around, kick a football about, write sketches, keep each other entertained.
Marc:So you had friends in grade school that you wrote comedy with?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it wasn't really comedy.
Guest:We just sort of, we did anything to keep ourselves entertained.
Guest:But it was a town where nothing happened.
Guest:And if you wanted to go to do something like to Dundee or even St.
Guest:Andrews, you would need somebody to drive you 20-odd minutes to get there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there was really nothing to do.
Guest:But 20 minutes isn't terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But at the time, in a weird way, it felt like it was quite hard.
Guest:It felt like quite a long time.
Marc:When you were a kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you were a kid, you had to wrangle the parents to take you somewhere so you could have some fun.
Guest:Like to a movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like cinema.
Guest:It would have to be.
Guest:You'd have to get your parents.
Guest:You'd have to find someone's dad who would take all of you along.
Guest:And it was just quite a cut off place.
Guest:So we had to find our own entertainment.
Guest:So we just, you know.
Marc:But were you inspired by comedy early on?
Guest:Oh, massively, yeah.
Guest:So that was another big way I spent my childhood.
Guest:I devoured sitcoms, everything like that.
Guest:I grew up in the age of The Office, you know.
Guest:What else are you going to do?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:So you watch the BBC?
Guest:Yeah, I watched the UK Office was a big inspiration for me growing up.
Guest:Over here, stuff like Arrested Development.
Guest:And I just devoured DVDs, really, as well with my friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, just found any ways to distract ourselves.
Marc:So when you're hanging out with your friends and you're writing sketches, you're inspired by these shows?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Always from a young age, I just felt like I escaped the boredom, perhaps, by writing sketches and comedy stuff.
Marc:Do you consider yourself first a writer?
Guest:Yes, that's a good question.
Guest:I think...
Guest:I'm not sure.
Guest:I'm honestly not sure how to answer that question.
Guest:I think maybe, maybe.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think the question is like, because like having spent time in Edinburgh and then, you know, seeing, you know, what that festival expects out of performers.
Marc:I guess it would really be hard to determine, and I don't know what your career has been like, but I mean, do you consider yourself like, you're obviously not a mainstream comic, so you weren't touring like comedy clubs, were you?
Guest:Well, I tried.
Guest:I tried, but never with much luck.
Guest:I would occasionally get the paid gig.
Guest:But, you know, my stuff was so out there.
Guest:I mean, you see it kind of in Baby Reindeer kind of portrayed.
Guest:But a lot of comedians, you know, didn't like me being on bills with me because I'd always tip the atmosphere in a kind of peculiar direction.
Marc:Peculiar.
Marc:That's a diplomatic word.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:I mean, I could kill the atmosphere to the point where, like, people would almost be like, I mean, I've had some terrible gigs.
Guest:Like, I've been heckled, booed.
Guest:At comedy clubs.
Guest:At comedy clubs, yeah, heckled, booed.
Guest:You know, one guy tried to attack me once.
Guest:And...
Guest:Because I think when, especially in the kind of classic comedy club sets on the Friday, Saturdays, people don't want to see what I'm doing.
Guest:They want escapist laughter and not to see someone trying to subvert the form or whatever.
Guest:And it would really rub people up the wrong way sometimes.
Guest:I haven't paid for this.
Guest:I don't want to see this guy.
Guest:Have you seen Stuart Lee?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, early on, I mean, he I think he quit comedy, not because he would necessarily make the environment peculiar, but just because they weren't getting on board with his groove, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And at some point he, you know, he stopped and then he came back.
Marc:It was a very it was a very profound thing to me.
Marc:When when he reframed it for himself coming back was that instead of being angry at them, he was able to have a certain amount of empathy for the fact that they didn't they didn't know what they were getting into.
Marc:Yeah, they didn't come expecting that.
Marc:But there were plenty of people who did.
Marc:So I don't know if that's the same experience with you.
Marc:I mean.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think, yeah, I have a lot of respect for that.
Guest:I actually didn't know that.
Guest:I actually didn't know he stepped away and came back.
Guest:But yeah, I could see why that happens.
Guest:But he kind of found his audience, didn't he?
Guest:And then that audience grew and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:And I think that kind of happened with me.
Guest:It wasn't until I started doing the fringe shows and kind of carving out a certain atmosphere.
Marc:But when does it start to, like, you know, when I have to assume, you know, in watching...
Marc:you know, Baby Reindeer and having not seen the show that it's based on, but knowing that you did a bunch of other shows and you kind of know the zone you operate in.
Marc:So, you know, do you track, like, when did shit start to go south?
Marc:When did shit start to go wrong for you, you know, as a kid?
Marc:Because you draw on it an awful lot, I imagine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But was there a point where you started to lose control?
Guest:Like lose control of?
Guest:Your life.
Guest:Oh, well, I mean, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'm not even sure where to sort of begin.
Guest:I think when I left home and suddenly— At what, 18, 19?
Guest:Yeah, to go to university.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I do remember thinking that there was kind of—
Guest:something missing inside of me.
Guest:I remember sort of once I was out in the real world and I was out of like a small town where I had my friends and I had my family.
Guest:I just remember getting to university and thinking, I don't know who I am, having that kind of hole in the soul thing.
Marc:No, I have it.
Marc:And it's like, it's a real problem in terms of like, if you kind of move through life with a sort of
Marc:Feeling that you don't have a complete sense of self.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and I think that's why in terms of Baby Reindeer, when I watched it, that I could understand it is it kind of puts you you have a kind of gaping hole.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:That is easy to be taken advantage of because you don't have the sense of self to fight.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And so you get into situations out of the desire to want to be part of something and then it becomes a disaster.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It leads to a lack of self and a lack of almost ability to be boundaried with people.
Guest:And I think people who are of a bad nature can sense that in someone when someone has a kind of low self-esteem that could be taken advantage of.
Marc:You're like food to them.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that's kind of how it all kind of.
Marc:But do you track it to something?
Marc:I mean, do you track it to your childhood?
Marc:I know in Baby Reindeer, there's sort of a kind of a full circle moment with, you know, your father and what's suggested there about his past.
Marc:But but I mean, in growing up, I mean, what kind of family would your dad do?
Guest:My dad was a scientist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, so completely different world to, to.
Marc:So that was a fictionalization in terms of what was in baby reindeer.
Guest:I don't think he, I don't think his job was specified.
Guest:In fact, I think in some of the scripts he, it was, but he, he was very much of the, I don't think you'll mind me saying this, the crazy scientist ilk.
Guest:Oh really?
Guest:Crazy.
Marc:But a good guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
Guest:And family was kind of loving.
Guest:There was just, yeah, it's, you know, there was a lot.
Guest:I mean, childhoods are always kind of quite complicated.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Quite hard to juggle.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:School could be tough in places.
Guest:You know, I definitely grew up in a neighborhood where, you know, masculinity was certainly at the forefront of it with some of the kids around and stuff like that.
Guest:And, you know, certain – the school was kind of –
Guest:And it's not the roughest school in the world.
Guest:It was a state comprehensive, like a free school, like a government school kind of thing.
Guest:You know, and in my early years, I was kind of picked on quite badly there.
Marc:For what reason?
Marc:Were you nerdy or were your interests weird?
Guest:It's so funny talking about this because it's almost like the first time I've even unlocked it in so many years.
Guest:But I remember when I was a kid in my... I played for this tennis club, the Wormit Tennis Club.
Guest:And I remember I had a birthmark on my head, which is actually faded.
Guest:And it was the shape of Africa, if you can believe this, the continent.
Guest:And they would call me...
Guest:tea stain and... I can't believe I'm talking about this.
Guest:Because I... And then they would like... Because they were like, oh, I've dropped a tea bag on my head.
Guest:And then they would... You know, it got to the point where they were like singing songs about me on the bus and stuff like that.
Guest:And then, you know, they would sing like mean songs and I'd sit at the front.
Guest:And I always remember... It got quite bad at one stage that I was coming back on the school bus and I remember...
Guest:I would just be the whole way back on the bus thinking, I hope they don't sing about me today.
Guest:I hope they don't sing about me today.
Guest:And I remember I would start to hear singing, but then realized they weren't singing.
Guest:So my anxiety was so great that I had started to hear the singing.
Guest:And I remember that's when I realized the things that actually got quite bad with the kind of bullying of it all.
Guest:I remember this one stage.
Guest:I remember one of the guys in particular...
Guest:It's funny now because I passed him when I went back home.
Guest:He's about up to my shoulder now.
Guest:And it's quite funny when you look back at these kinds of characters in your life.
Marc:And they were so overbearing and had such an impact.
Marc:And then you get older and you're like, it was you?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I remember this guy gave me a hard time day in, day out.
Guest:And I remember going home, sitting with my sister, coming up with something I could say to him on the bus the next day.
Guest:And I decided to say...
Guest:You know, at least when I go on holiday, I don't have to drop my mom off at the kennels, which is obviously very, you know, not the right thing to say.
Guest:A standard kind of kid.
Marc:A put down, yeah.
Guest:Kid band or whatever.
Guest:And he went right to the front of the bus.
Guest:He must have been about six years between us and he beat the hell out of me, you know.
Guest:And, you know, and that was... He was six years older than you?
Guest:He was about six years older than me, I think, yeah.
Marc:And he's still on the same bus?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But it's, you know, it's funny.
Guest:I...
Guest:you know, it's funny talking about this kind of stuff, you know, because I, you question whether I've kind of, but it causes you to be kind of tough in your neighborhood to stick up for yourself, to not take much shit from people.
Guest:And I think that that, it hardens you.
Guest:Well, it just, you have to be hardened.
Marc:But physically, no, you're not like, you're not a scrapper.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:I mean, I've been in fights, but stupid kids.
Marc:But in the sense of like, you know, being able to take,
Marc:a certain amount of verbal abuse or bullying because you're used to it, that's a standard comedic profile.
Marc:I mean, you sort of have to have some kind of tough skin to do it.
Marc:Harry Shearer, I think, to paraphrase him, he told me that the reason why people get into comedy is so they can try to control why people laugh at them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, absolutely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I think that that is a very, you know, good, good way of looking at it.
Guest:I think, yeah.
Guest:I mean, to come back to the kind of wider point of why I kind of saw that, because I think something will have to go.
Guest:There's something lacking to have to go on to stage and be like, I want to make you laugh.
Guest:I want your adoration.
Guest:I want your respect kind of thing.
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:But I think sometimes it's just – and maybe we're similar because I don't find it to be similar with a lot of people.
Marc:But, you know, if you get to – if your sense of self or your insecurity or your anxiety is so much, I mean there –
Marc:The one thing about stand-up is you can find yourself up there or some version of you if you want to fight it out.
Marc:Some sort of space you can hold that's your own.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And I think there was just something that I took.
Guest:I remember when I went to school.
Guest:At school, I remember I was cast in the play.
Guest:I was cast as Macbeth in the school play.
Guest:And I remember it was a school production.
Guest:I still stand by that.
Guest:I think it was quite good.
Guest:And in fact, it was.
Guest:But I just got the bug and I kind of knew my place in the world.
Guest:And I got some sort of adrenaline and affirmation from it that made me think, well, this is making me happy now.
Marc:And you had not done any acting before?
Guest:I'd done drama at school.
Guest:I'd been in classes.
Guest:But that was the first time I'd actually done it.
Marc:And this was in what the equivalent of high school?
Guest:Yeah, it was like a stay.
Guest:It was secondary school.
Guest:It would have been when I was about maybe 16 or something.
Marc:So you were interested in acting to begin with.
Guest:I did drama classes at school, but that was when I realized my mom.
Marc:But like but like acting.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom basically was like, you should audition for this.
Guest:And I went, I don't know.
Guest:And she was like, no, you should.
Guest:And then I auditioned, didn't understand Shakespeare.
Guest:It was, is this a dagger which you see before me speech?
Guest:I didn't even know it was an invisible dagger.
Guest:I couldn't figure out the language.
Guest:It was a complete disaster.
Guest:Then I come in the next day and my head, I'm at the top of the sheet saying Richard Macbeth.
Guest:So I don't know how that happened.
Guest:Do you think they were trying to make a prank on you?
Guest:No.
Guest:I think they genuinely just must have seen some energy or something in me.
Guest:But it was like still to this day one of the kind of most enjoyable, enlightening experiences of my life.
Guest:And I said to myself, well, I want to give this a shot properly.
Guest:My parents said, get a bit of education behind you.
Guest:I went off to uni first.
Marc:So you did the whole Macbeth without really having a sense of Shakespeare.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You just memorized it.
Marc:And did you have a good director?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She was amazing.
Guest:Patricia Resler.
Guest:I kind of owe her everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was a great teacher at school.
Guest:But I sort of learned about Shakespeare when I did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So did it speak to you, the torment of that?
Guest:Yes, it did.
Guest:Part of me still wants to do Macbeth.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think you should do it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Why wouldn't you do it?
Guest:Yeah, I'd love to.
Guest:I'd love to do Shakespeare.
Guest:And I became very indulgent.
Guest:I indulged in Shakespeare quite a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From that point on, you know, I started to really... And then when I went off to uni, I would do essays and do all that stuff and study Shakespeare.
Guest:So I really got really into it.
Guest:I kind of have pulled back a bit from it now, but it really was a kind of watershed moment for what I wanted to do with my life, for sure.
Marc:Yeah, but you chose comedy.
Marc:I mean, Macbeth is not really a comedy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Comedy came at uni.
Guest:It was funny because I remember kind of sleepovers and I never – I loved sitcom, but I didn't really love stand-up too much.
Guest:I actually love stand-up a lot more now than I did back then when I started.
Marc:So you liked watching sitcoms.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Did you have a sense of like, well, these are written?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:and i could write it uh i think that was always i think when i watched like the uk office the uh the ricky gervais yeah the merchant one i remember watching that and i i just became obsessed with it i thought it was the funniest thing i thought was the most moving thing i still do to this day think it's one of the greatest things that's ever been made yeah and i um i researched into it saw these two guys oh they wrote it and they were in it yeah and they directed it and they did all this stuff
Marc:But also, it's also tonally up your alley.
Marc:I mean, in the cringe factor.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And so I said, oh, this is what I would love to do.
Guest:I'd love to have my own version of the UK office.
Guest:And that was always my goal, which really kind of got all the way to Baby Reindeer in a way.
Guest:It's just my life took these dramatic turns that meant I wasn't really doing workplace comedy by the time I was thinking about Baby Reindeer, if that makes sense, because my life had changed so much.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, when you got to university, what were you studying?
Guest:I was studying English literature and theater studies.
Marc:And did that satisfy your parents?
Guest:You know, looking back, I think they probably thought I was going to go and I would get an education.
Guest:I get...
Guest:Maybe a job.
Guest:And I grew out of my kind of hobbies.
Guest:But the second uni finished, I was back on it.
Guest:I want to do this.
Guest:I want to do this.
Marc:But it's also like, though, but English and theater studies, it's not like, well, that'll get you a job.
Guest:No, no, exactly.
Guest:It was very much in the vein of what I wanted to do.
Guest:But it was at uni.
Guest:I spent so much time in the Drama Society doing plays, writing plays.
Guest:And then I discovered comedy and did that.
Guest:So most of my uni time was spent on the circuit doing comedy.
Marc:But you wrote some plays?
Guest:Yeah, I wrote some plays.
Marc:With many people in them?
Guest:Yeah, and I'd put them on, and I'd be in plays that other people wrote, or they'd put on something like Dr. Faustus or something, and I would be in that.
Guest:Audition for it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:So was there two, was it the main drama school, or was there like two?
Marc:Were there the serious actors, and then they had a drama for English majors?
Guest:Oh, it was just called Student Theatre at Glasgow.
Guest:It was just like a bunch of students kind of put in plays.
Marc:Right, so it wasn't like part of the programs.
Guest:No, no, it wasn't part of the program.
Guest:In fact, the theater studies and English degree was very academic.
Guest:In fact, the theater studies was the hardest part of it.
Guest:It was all like space and place, I remember.
Guest:It was really theoretical.
Guest:There was no practical side to it at all.
Guest:I think I thought, oh, cool, I'm going to go and just do some drama for a bit.
Guest:But it was very theoretical, very challenging.
Marc:Do you find that it stuck?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I think when I got to uni, I...
Guest:I think I really got a sense of work ethic and what you get out of life if you work hard at university.
Guest:Because when I went, I realized that I actually wasn't very academically up to scratch.
Guest:You do four years in Scotland, and in the first year, you need a D3 to scrape through, which is like the equivalent of a third.
Guest:Do you have the same grading system out here?
Marc:No, not really.
Guest:So is this all going to be alien if I speak about it?
Marc:Well, you need a certain grade point average to get into a better school.
Marc:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:If you were kind of a mediocre student or a bad one, your choices of higher education become limited.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:So, exactly.
Guest:So, you needed a D3 to get through the first year, which is a very low average.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I scraped through the first year.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I needed a B in the second year, which was such a leap up for me.
Marc:This was in university.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:To get through the next year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:almost and somehow scraped through.
Guest:And I remember thinking, I'm not going to get an honors degree unless I figure out how to properly write, structure essays, all these kinds of things.
Marc:Is that the same as here?
Guest:Yeah, like a proper, like full-on sort of undergraduate degree.
Guest:And so I remember one uni, everyone went back home to work, and instead I went to the library at uni and worked through the summer, genuinely going back to basics, like how do you properly structure an essay and how do you properly... After your first year?
Guest:First two years, if you can believe that.
Guest:I went into my honors year thinking I've got to figure this out because I keep, I just, there's something missing.
Marc:Writing papers is the worst.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I used to write like, I'd write five pages of opening paragraphs.
Marc:Like, you know, I could never make a fucking point.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I just couldn't figure out how to structure it.
Marc:The idea of trying to write one now is nightmarish.
Guest:Yes, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And you figured it out?
Guest:Well, I just, I took, and I busted my ass, and I went to uni.
Guest:So along with all the coursework I was doing, I was reading books on how to kind of write properly in a way.
Guest:And I ended up getting a first in it, and I'm getting the highest grade you can get.
Guest:And I went from being someone who almost failed first year with a D average, which is really hard to do.
Guest:It's hard to fail, to getting a first.
Guest:And I never, ever missed a single lecture tutorial the entire time I was at university in Florida.
Marc:So you applied yourself, as they say, in the business.
Guest:And I realized that you get a lot out of it if you apply yourself.
Marc:So alongside of this, you know, this revelation in discipline.
Guest:Yeah, which is what it was, which is genuinely what it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're off getting, you know, battle scarred in the comedy world.
Guest:Yes, I was doing all that at the same time.
Marc:But like, what are these?
Marc:So like, you know, what's the arc?
Marc:I mean, like from now, from what you're telling me, you know, you go to uni, you fuck up and you realize like, you know, I can't get anywhere if I'm going to do this.
Marc:And then you, you know, you lock in and you nail it.
Marc:But what is something must be going on in the personal life that is not particularly good?
Guest:Well, like to spur me on like this.
Marc:Well, I mean, well, to get to where – because you said, you know, from when you were a kid to, you know, to baby reindeer that there was a lot of changes that happened.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, there was always – like when I went to university, there was always just this feeling, this cosmic sort of sense of –
Guest:I don't know, kind of dread, lacking fear, all these things that has driven me to the point of distraction through work and through various other things and has driven me on.
Guest:And work has been the main source to kind of patch over that and to explore that and to go through that.
Marc:So it provided you a distraction from the immediacy of it consuming you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And so the natural leap once you got your skill set was to write about it.
Guest:Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And I'm, you know, and it's quite self-flagellating in a way.
Guest:It's quite self-punishing kind of journey of sort of autobiographical work.
Marc:Well, but that becomes your thing.
Marc:So it's self-flagellating, but like...
Marc:If you write jokes for joke's sake or you're just making comedy for comedy's sake, that's almost a different skill set.
Marc:I mean, it's a good one to have.
Marc:But if you set out to explore yourself, you're always going to be like that self-involved person.
Marc:But it sounds like, and I can relate to it, what else is there?
Marc:I'm not that interested in it.
Marc:In the other stuff, you know, ultimately I can do those kind of jokes, but the real revelation comes from exploring your own psyche, right?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I remember when I, you know, it's obviously well spoken about now, like going, when I first got into the industry and kind of taking advantage of sexually abused and drug abuse and all this stuff.
Guest:And I, the revelation kind of came because I was doing all these, like that part of Baby Ranger is very real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was doing this silly comedy, this kind of very out-there comedy, props, wigs, glasses, anti-humour, all this kind of stuff.
Guest:And then my life was existing in this impossible juxtaposition between doing kind of frivolous laughs and kind of in-your-face humour and sound effects and all this stuff.
Guest:Was it working, though?
Guest:It was kind of working.
Guest:I mean, I think one of the things Baby Reindeer does, there was times when those gigs went really, really well.
Guest:And I'd done shows in Edinburgh.
Guest:that had gone really, really well, which were kind of big, frolicky, laughy sort of those kinds of shows, you know.
Guest:But taking the piss out of comedy in general.
Guest:Yes, and being subversive and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:But I realized that I was kind of, I just almost, I remember I'd gone through all this stuff, I was trying to come to terms with it, and I remember just thinking, I just can't don the wig and glasses this time around.
Marc:Oh, so that happened in a similar way to Baby Reindeer.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just couldn't do it anymore.
Guest:And so I instead in the show in Baby Reindeer, it's like an impulsive decision to break down and start talking about it.
Guest:But in real life, it was a show called Monkey See Monkey Do.
Guest:And I planned, I meticulously planned an Edinburgh show where I was going to speak about sexual abuse and being sexually abused and the assault it had on my senses, on my sense of self, my sense of masculinity.
Marc:How many shows have you done previous to that?
Guest:I'd done about three shows previously to that.
Marc:And they were all frivolous, as you say.
Guest:Well, they were high-concept kind of shows.
Guest:There was one called, like, Waiting for Gado, where I was only in five minutes of my own show, and the whole show was done by my technician.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:You would hear me phoning the venue, for example, and I'd say, you've got to fill in for me, and the technician did 55 minutes of the show, and then I arrived five minutes.
Guest:And that was successful?
Guest:Yeah, that was a really successful one.
Guest:They all got their audiences.
Guest:What were the other ones?
Guest:There was one called Cheese and Crack Horse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Still the best title show I've ever had.
Yeah.
Guest:What was that about?
Guest:If I remember correctly, it was about a breakup and it was about me trying to do a comedy show whilst having these awful flashbacks to my awful breakup.
Guest:So I would be doing a comedy show, but I'd be having a breakdown and then you'd hear the voices in my head and you'd hear the arguments that I had.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So that was the first one.
Guest:The second one was called Breaking Gad, which is a regretfully titled show because it was kind of cashing in on a fad at the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't a fad.
Guest:Breaking Bad's an amazing piece of work.
Guest:One of the best of all times.
Guest:Not a fad.
Guest:What were we talking about?
Guest:But it was cashing in on the kind of... Popularity.
Guest:Yeah, popularity.
Guest:And so people... I got a lot of Breaking Bad fans expecting Walter White jokes.
Guest:And then they got me sort of dressed as a mattress because I was dressed as a mattress because the whole idea was the show had been sponsored by a mattress company.
Guest:So I had to wear a big mattress throughout the whole show.
Guest:And then the show was kind of...
Guest:Penetrated by constant sponsorship adverts whilst I was trying to do a show about my piecing back my memory whilst after being knocked out.
Guest:So very high concept.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Crazy, crazy show.
Marc:And so what show brought you to the attention of The Predator?
Guest:Do you mean the show that came to terms with... Well, no, not that came to terms with it.
Marc:Because in Baby Reindeer, he sees you.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Trying to do something.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not sure I can draw...
Guest:You know, I'm not sure I can say the whens and the where's and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:I think that I can get into that kind of detail.
Guest:But he did see you.
Guest:It was just a figure I met when I go in the industry.
Guest:And they sort of, yeah, I mean, it was a pretty horrible, horrible time.
Guest:You know, it's...
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I mean, I had, like, I know what that's like.
Marc:When I was in college, I had an experience with a professor who was of that ilk.
Marc:And again, it comes down to, you know, them seeing that part of you that is vulnerable and what they could take advantage of because you want to be like them or you want to do what they do or you look up to them, you know?
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And I think...
Guest:One of the tactics filling somebody with confidence is sometimes the best way to get them to lower their senses.
Guest:And if they're lacking of self-confidence, it's... Easy to take advantage of them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then to pull myself out of that situation and piece myself back together and think about my future and my ambitions and try and get my life back on track felt borderline impossible.
Marc:I mean, I was... So you were personally devastated.
Guest:It was unbelievable.
Marc:And like how much coming out of the situation like that, though, were you wrestling with in terms of blaming yourself?
Guest:You wouldn't believe.
Guest:You wouldn't believe.
Guest:I would.
Guest:Well, you would believe.
Guest:Yeah, no, that's true.
Guest:I mean, it was actually kind of...
Guest:I mean, it was devastating.
Guest:I mean, I don't... A lot of it, I think you go through a process first of denial or a process of minimizing and a process of just desperately not thinking about it.
Guest:You go through these stages of just, I can't... I tell you what, today I'm just not going to think about it.
Guest:Oh, it's there.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:I'm going to get...
Guest:But eventually, like, you cannot help but let it in.
Guest:And once you let it in, it's devastating.
Guest:It affects your brain.
Guest:It affects your mood.
Guest:It affects your body.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because what happens is that when it's repeated and the relationship is maintained, you know, you have to reframe it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That you are a victim.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Marc:And if you lack confidence, it's very easy to blame yourself.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Marc:So then you're left with no recourse but to destroy yourself.
Guest:Yes, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And it was just like I just couldn't believe that it happened.
Guest:And with someone I trusted and also like a lot of it was how could I be so stupid was part of it as well.
Marc:But were you using a lot of drugs and alcohol?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:By yourself too?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so it was just a terrible situation.
Guest:It's like waking up in a nightmare and then coming to terms with it and being traumatized, your brain chemistry changes.
Guest:So all of a sudden, like, you're almost just struggling to even make it to the bus stop in time because of this kind of slushy sort of depression that just kind of like fills your system.
Guest:And then it, you know,
Guest:I remember my mom and a friend of mine called James, you know, I ended up opening up to them eventually, but then it starts to affect your friendships because they become kind of compulsive.
Guest:You start to compulsively lean on people as well because what you're dealing with is so... Well, you're trusting them and you don't know if you can.
Guest:yeah well well i mean these these people were great it's just it becomes they become they become confidants in your life and then you become desperately seek their reassurance wherever you feel wobbly and it just has such a destructive impact on your life on your friendships on your work on everything and and it got to the point where i thought i have to come to terms with this and come clean with this because the secret was too much to bear yeah and so i did the 2016 edinburgh show monkey see monkey do and that's that was when i started to come to terms with it
Marc:And, you know, so you set out, you sat down, and you composed yourself enough.
Marc:How long did it take you to write it?
Marc:Were you writing it in bits and pieces?
Guest:I wrote it about a year.
Guest:I finished waiting for Gadot.
Guest:And then I think I gave it maybe about—I think I wrote it about eight months.
Guest:And I remember going up.
Guest:I—
Guest:I remember just working really, really hard on it, previewing it a lot.
Marc:What, the monkey see, monkey do?
Guest:Yeah, and I remember at that time, though, it was pre-Me Too, so not many people spoke about this.
Guest:And I think, especially in a male sphere, it wasn't really spoken about.
Guest:So at the time, it felt very dangerous almost to do, almost in a way.
Marc:Dangerous because you might be obliterated by the admission.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:I thought there was the fear of judgment, the fear of friends and people, family not being able to look at me in the same way.
Guest:And then the fear of going up doing a comedy show in Edinburgh about sexual abuse.
Marc:Were you able to balance the comedy?
Guest:Yeah, I think I did get it quite right.
Guest:I mean, it is still probably one of my most successful shows to date.
Guest:I mean, it won the Edinburgh Comedy Award that year, so it won the Perrier that year.
Guest:But I remember going up and...
Guest:And thinking it was going to be the ruin of me.
Guest:And I don't know what I was thinking.
Guest:I had Flamis at the time who I think thought it was a bad idea and were making jokes about it being a bad idea.
Guest:And I went up expecting this really dark show with really dark material and jokes and everything to really almost be the death of me.
Guest:I remember one person saying, what do you want to get out this month?
Guest:And I said, I want to make it out alive.
Guest:And that was my attitude going up there.
Guest:It was almost like I don't know what I'm doing.
Guest:But it turned into the most uplifting, euphoric experience.
Guest:healing month of my life, you know.
Marc:Well, so much was at stake psychologically and emotionally for you.
Guest:And I'd never felt acceptance like it.
Guest:You know, my football team came down and I was really worried about them, like my soccer team or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they came down and they were people I was really worried about.
Guest:And I remember the captain texted me that night and he said, I don't know whether this text will mean anything to you, but it kind of made me proud to be your friend.
Guest:And I just remember being like, oh my God, I was so worried, you know.
Marc:Well, I think it's interesting because to speak about it specifically, because I have a bit that I'm doing now that, you know, is pretty good.
Marc:You know, it's personal and it has to do with the possibility of sexual abuse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that what is unsaid is that there is nobody not affected by this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And nobody can talk about it.
Marc:And there's just very few people that get out alive without having some sort of traumatic experience around that kind of subject matter.
Marc:So I imagine because of the way you crafted it,
Marc:It was relatable enough to where people can reflect on their own unsaid things, right?
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And I think that was the thing that really blew my mind about it because I think at that time, pre-Me Too, not many people spoke about it.
Guest:Not many people spoke about publicly.
Guest:Men.
Guest:Especially not men.
Guest:But then men were coming up in their droves being like...
Guest:by the way, this thing happened and this thing happened.
Guest:And I've never, yeah, I've never thought about it like this way before, but you helped me think about it this way.
Marc:Oh my God, that's amazing.
Guest:And it almost made me think, oh my God, this is like, there's a trap door here.
Guest:The whole society has been abused in a way.
Guest:And that's sometimes how it feels, you know, especially when you become a sort of spokesperson from this, you feel like almost everyone in the world comes up to you and says an experience that they've had because it's so, it hits.
Marc:Well, I think the key is what you just said, which is that you,
Marc:I think most people, men certainly, are taught to suck it up, just deal with it.
Marc:You keep it to yourself and compartmentalize it and live your life.
Marc:But so many of the lives that people live and their emotional capabilities are so damaged from that, but they don't source it.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So I imagine on some level by being open about it that people were able to make these connections of like, oh my God, I've been doing this my whole life and the reason I have this issue is because of this.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And I think, you know, I think there's a thing, I work for this charity back, oh, I'm not dropping that in to be all sanctimonious or whatever, but their slogan is break the silence.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We are survivors, break the silence.
Guest:And then,
Guest:That is true.
Guest:It's the only way I think you can get through it is by speaking and not being ashamed of it because I think it builds so much shame up inside you that it can create some real internal damage and psychological damage that the only way I know is to speak out about it.
Marc:Yeah, because you could – what happens is I think is you could get like almost addicted to shame.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Oh, and I was –
Guest:Completely.
Guest:I couldn't look at people in the eye in checkouts.
Guest:You know, I remember I'd be paying for food and I'd be like almost having a panic attack because I think that they could see it on me, like smell it on me.
Guest:I would almost spit.
Guest:I remember I feeling like I could, the kind of feeling was so awful that it was like in my spit, it was in my blood running through me, this horrible feeling of sort of defilement and abuse.
Marc:So after you do the show, how does that change your life?
Guest:Well, I mean, I just, I just couldn't believe the response to it.
Guest:It's, um, so I won the Perrier Award.
Guest:I suddenly went from being a kind of part-time jobbing barman comedian to, uh, to, uh, to full-time.
Guest:So it made me full-time.
Guest:I toured the show around Europe, around Britain, around Australia, kind of took around the world.
Guest:Um,
Guest:And I think people started to just take notice of me as an artist almost in a way.
Guest:And I think the more you do a show like that, the more you get used to talking about it, the more people come up, the more you stop becoming ashamed of it.
Guest:Art has this amazing ability of dwarfing the magnitude of themes in a way and getting on top of them.
Guest:And I think by the end of the... I did it for a year.
Guest:I remember saying, I'm just going to do the show for a year and about a year to the day it finished.
Guest:And the amount of personal growth I went on that year was unbelievable, really.
Marc:And so when does the next show happen?
Guest:It was about two years later, I think.
Guest:I did a few acting jobs and stuff like that.
Marc:And you were writing too?
Guest:Yeah, I was trying to get my foot in the door of television.
Guest:I came close so many times.
Guest:I had so many different projects.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I felt like I came close.
Guest:so many times.
Guest:In fact, Monkey See Monkey Do almost became a TV show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was kind of last minute.
Guest:There was a change in commissioners and maybe in a way like it was too high concept.
Guest:I look back and question whether it would have worked actually.
Guest:High concept how?
Guest:It was about me being haunted by a giant monkey.
Guest:That's how you framed it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the monkey was the metaphor for everything I'd been through.
Guest:But it was like a sitcom where a man cannot escape a sort of giant monkey almost in a way.
Guest:It would demean it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It just felt like maybe quite high concept.
Guest:But anything can kind of work, I think, when done right.
Marc:Yeah, but it's interesting that whatever time availed you in the next horrendous story that defined that show gave you the wherewithal to not mask it at all.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And yeah, exactly.
Guest:And, you know, and then when it came to Baby Reindeer, I just, yeah, it was... Well, when did that experience happen to you with the Martha character?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that went on for a large number of years.
Marc:So at the same time as the other stuff?
Marc:At the same time as the other stuff.
Guest:And I sometimes think that when – I mean, what's the – So not unlike the series.
Marc:They were having simultaneously.
Guest:It was just an awful time.
Guest:And I think sometimes that happens when you're going through such a, you know, that, Oh my God, there's a line in baby and that's what abuse does to you.
Guest:It makes you a sticking plaster full of life's weirdos, you know?
Guest:And I think sometimes when you're going through a really difficult time, you, you do become a sort of magnet for other kinds of dangers in your life because you're so exposed almost vulnerably and emotionally.
Marc:You can't, you can't have any boundaries.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So, yeah, of course, you're just, you know, that's exactly true.
Marc:And so, which did the predatory, the sexual abuse happen before, you know?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, so that's sort of the door was open.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think I was just looking for comfort wherever I could find it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Because that's what it does to you.
Guest:You look for anything to distract yourself from the kind of trauma of what happened.
Guest:And so I indulged in work.
Guest:And now I'm much more boundaried.
Guest:Did you seek professional help?
Guest:Oh, I've completed therapy.
Yeah.
Guest:I've almost done them all.
Guest:Well, you had a lot to work with.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I've paid their kids through college, you know.
Marc:What was the most helpful?
Guest:Oh, it's interesting.
Guest:I sometimes think, like, I've got a brain where usually, like, something starts off quite helpful, but then even if my brain manages to convince myself it's then not been as helpful as it is, and it starts to become a kind of something that I battle with.
Guest:But I think I've tried, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think just standard talk therapy does really help.
Marc:With somebody who can contextualize what your experience was.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:And I just think a place – the thing I think for me what works about therapy sometimes is a place you can go where you can just tell all your fears without judgment.
Guest:It's a very valuable thing I think for people.
Marc:And I think – And all your experiences.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And I think it saves you sort of bleeding them into the world and telling everyone you meet.
Guest:Because that can be quite a compulsive habit to deal with things.
Marc:Well, you do it on stage.
Guest:Yeah, you do it on stage.
Guest:And so it allows you to compartmentalize your life a little bit better.
Guest:But yeah, it was just a real crazy time.
Marc:So when you processed everything that became Monkey See, Monkey Do...
Marc:The stalker situation was ongoing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it just becomes part of your life that you have no control over.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:And I remember when that situation resolved itself.
Guest:I felt, again, just awful, like I was picking up my life again.
Marc:Yeah, how did it resolve itself?
Guest:Yeah, it stopped.
Guest:Yeah, it just kind of stopped.
Guest:It's obviously part of an ongoing thing.
Guest:Unfortunately, I'd love to go into it more.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But when it did sort of resolve itself.
Guest:You had the same feeling.
Guest:Yeah, I had this sort of this feeling of just like, oh, that has really kind of traumatized me.
Guest:And so that's when I decided to do Baby Reindeer.
Marc:Well, it breaks your brain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:So you just you got through one, you know, an easier one in some ways to to get yourself out of.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Into something that you had no control over.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it was very daunting to to sort of process and get yourself out of.
Marc:But once you did.
Marc:You know, like it had to be a whole other level of the same type of feelings.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And I got a lot from doing Monkey to Monkey Do.
Guest:I got a lot of sort of self-examination.
Guest:And so I did it with that.
Guest:And then that's what brought us to where we are now.
Marc:To Baby Reindeer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that was a show.
Guest:Yeah, it started off as a show at the Edinburgh Fringe 2019.
Guest:It was a one-man show.
Marc:That was two years after Monkey See Monkey Do?
Guest:Three years, actually, it debuted, yeah.
Guest:Two years after I finished the show.
Marc:And in the interim, like, are you workshopping these things?
Guest:With that show, yeah, I would workshop it every now and again.
Guest:But always with my shows, I've kind of been booked to date and thinking that's miles ahead.
Guest:Then it gets to about six months before and I'm like, I better get going on this.
Guest:And I, yeah, it was a bit of a balls-to-the-wall kind of job.
Marc:I never understood that in the sense of Edinburgh where you have comedians who are doing theater pieces, some looser than others.
Marc:What is the process of working those pieces out?
Guest:Yeah, I had a great director, John Britton, and a great producer, Francesca Moody, on that show.
Guest:And I had written a script, which basically was quite close to what I ended up being.
Guest:And I remember sharing it with him and Francesca, and they gave me a lot of confidence in it.
Guest:I remember they really took to it, and I respected them both so much.
Guest:So that gave me...
Guest:The belief that I could step out of comedy into theater and give it a shot because Baby Reindeer was a theater piece rather than a comedy piece.
Marc:But so the TV show is different from—because that combines both shows.
Guest:It does combine both shows.
Guest:So, yeah, that is quite a big departure from the live show.
Marc:There's certain— And what was the structure of the theatrical production of Baby Reindeer?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was a one-man monologue.
Guest:It involved a lot of projector, old voicemails, emails, beaming around the stage, a revolve, and I'd stand on stage and basically tell the story, interacting with a stool, and the stool took up the place of Martha, and I'd move the stool around, and I'd talk to the stool, and it was me recounting the story, kind of, and this happened, and then this happened, and I had lots of twists and turns, and a really good sound score, and yeah, very proud of that show.
Guest:I'm proud of everything we did on it, and...
Marc:It always seems, though, that that from the beginning, no matter what you were doing, was something, you know, beyond comedy in the sense of theater.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That like unlike a lot of comics that go to Edinburgh that try to wrangle an hour of material into some themed work.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You were always aware that you were making theater pieces.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I think it was so funny because a lot of times when I did shows, there would be... And I went in the comedy section, they'd be like, he needs to get to a theatre, this isn't comedy.
Guest:And then I'd go to a theatre and the theatre would be like, he needs to get to a comedy section, this isn't theatre.
Guest:And I existed in this middle ground and I remember for certain awards...
Guest:that I'd be up for that month like monkey see monkey do for example the theater crowd thought it was too comedic to be considered for theater awards and the comedy crowd argued that it was too theatrical to be considered for comedy awards but I'm quite proud of that in a weird way you're kind of escaping definition sure and I think that that that is one of the parts of those shows I'm most most proud of I think and what what is your experience with other comics do you have are you part of the community or do you feel what once again outside of it
Guest:Oh, I've got great comedy friends.
Guest:I think I've made some of the best friends I've ever had from comedy in so many ways.
Guest:But I don't really do comedy very much anymore.
Guest:I think when the theatre piece happened, it set me off on the path to writing the Netflix show and then doing some serious acting jobs.
Guest:And the comedy is quite in the background now, yeah.
Marc:But comedy in the sense of doing comedy, but not in the sense of writing theater?
Guest:I think I'd love to write theater again and do live.
Guest:I'm definitely going to do live stuff again, 100%.
Marc:Oh, just live stuff in general.
Guest:But I think comedy circuit stuff or doing Edinburgh shows or doing the kind of comedy stuff, I think that's probably a thing of the past.
Guest:I think just right now I'm just quite happy about following the trajectory in terms of where it's going.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, how did you get the support to do the TV show?
Guest:Yeah, it was kind of quite mad.
Guest:I mean, the theatre piece exploded.
Guest:Like, it really was like this word-of-mouth hit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was really big in Edinburgh.
Guest:At Edinburgh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and then it went off to the Bush Theatre in London and it did... Again, it was this big kind of explosive hit.
Guest:And I just found myself suddenly...
Guest:Usually, I would almost beg commissioners to take a chance on my show.
Guest:I'd write these massive treatments and scripts and be like, please, I do lots of work on spec.
Guest:But with this, it was like the play, everyone just wanted it.
Guest:They wanted to do this.
Guest:And they all started competing with each other, all these different streamers.
Guest:There was a bidding war, kind of.
Guest:It was, yeah, about three of them.
Guest:I'm not sure I'm allowed to say who, actually.
Guest:But there was about three of them, and they all started to...
Guest:bid with each other and I remember I would go in to have these meetings and it was kind of funny because I'd usually go into these meetings with commissioners selling the project selling myself commissioners is like the word for development people well just the people who'd say yeah we want to make this we'll give you the money kind of thing at uh
Guest:I had like Netflix or whatever.
Guest:But I realised the play was so hot that all of a sudden I felt like I was going into these commissioner meetings and they were kind of pitching as to why I should do it there.
Guest:And I suddenly realised that I had this kind of IP on my hand that was quite attractive to these commissioners.
Guest:And Netflix really, really were kind of brilliant in terms of just being like, look, we believe in this, we believe in you.
Guest:Go out, find a production company.
Guest:We'll back you, whoever you want to go with.
Marc:Did you have a concept for the show at that time?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:Not too far from where it was.
Guest:I thought I have to just keep the elements of what made the live show successful, which was kind of a propulsive narrative, like a fast-moving narrative, emails on screen, a kind of interesting, quirky score, and a brutally honest kind of first-person narrative.
Marc:But from the beginning, had you considered folding the Monkey See, Monkey Do story in?
Guest:Yeah, because it was touched upon in the play.
Guest:yeah it was in in baby reindeer okay okay so it was touched upon a little bit right that stuff and so why not just tell the whole story yeah so we we talked about a flashback episode quite early on everyone was quite on board with it and we're there that flashback episode seems to be the one that um okay hold on no worries is that is everything all right
Guest:Is that an evacuation?
Guest:Yeah, but I don't know where.
Guest:Isn't it?
Guest:Oh, God, it's so awful everything that's going on.
Guest:Yeah, let's see.
Marc:No, we're okay, we're okay.
Marc:I don't think it's... It's not... I think it's for another one.
Marc:Um...
Marc:Yeah, it's not here.
Marc:It's fucking crazy, dude.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:I think I've got one on my phone as well.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:What did yours say?
Marc:Evacuation order?
Guest:Not an order, no.
Guest:I'll put that down.
Guest:No, we're okay.
Guest:We're okay.
Guest:Is yours still up on your phone?
Marc:This is for a fire way over by the beach, by the other fire.
Guest:God, it's a really... I have to say it's surreal being here and absolutely devastating for the people when you see all the footage and everything like that.
Marc:It's just unbelievable.
Marc:It's a different kind of trauma.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you, you know, we're always afraid of this, but we've never seen anything like this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And during, you know, the first Trump administration during COVID, there was like a firestorm here and it was just apocalyptic.
Marc:And, you know, you spend a lot of time just wondering, you know, is it near here?
Marc:How far is it?
Marc:But like, it's never been like this kind of all around the city, you know, but it's weird.
Marc:Some of these are being downgraded, but some are still going.
Marc:It's just natural disaster time.
Guest:Yeah, it's so sad.
Guest:I'm staying in a hotel down on sunset at the moment and seeing people arrive, like evacuees arriving.
Marc:Yeah, I was down there last night.
Marc:I went down to Hollywood from here just because I just wanted to get ahead of it.
Marc:And then that fire broke out right there.
Marc:Where on Sunset were you?
Guest:I was on one hotel.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So you had a fire across the street.
Guest:We were a block away from the evacuation zone.
Marc:Yeah, I was there, too.
Marc:I was looking at it from my window.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I could see an unbelievable amazing fire.
Marc:And I thought it was safe.
Marc:Like, I went to Hollywood to, you know, anyway.
Marc:So...
Marc:So Netflix got on board and you wrote the scripts, all of them?
Guest:I wrote all of them, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I just really... I knew it was my chance in a way, so I had to kind of knuckle down.
Guest:And COVID happened, so I had more time than most.
Guest:And I...
Guest:I just dug real deep, you know, and, yeah, worked real hard.
Guest:And, yeah, we all did on that show.
Guest:And, you know, in fact, a lot of people who work on the show, big fan of this podcast.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Hello, Veronica.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And so, yeah, so, you know, we all, you know, broke our backs for it.
Guest:And, yeah, but I wrote day and night obsessively, constantly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Digging deeper and deeper.
Guest:It was tough.
Guest:It was a tough process.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the outcome.
Marc:I mean, I imagine you didn't quite know what to expect.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I think, you know, a lot of people... I think I believed in it.
Guest:And I almost don't... I think...
Guest:I think I did believe in it and I believed it would be a success.
Guest:Did I believe it was going to sort of like be this cultural explosion to the fact that I'm out here suddenly on this podcast?
Marc:Didn't you just win a Golden Globe?
Guest:Yeah, just won a Golden Globe as well.
Guest:So I never would have thought that.
Guest:I mean, Golden Globes wouldn't have even come into my mind.
Guest:Emmys, stuff like this.
Guest:It just wasn't on my radar.
Guest:In the UK, you would...
Guest:pray and hope that you maybe get BAFTA or you would you'd be nominated or maybe be in BAFTA contention yeah but but I wasn't even thinking about that I knew I was making this dark weird idiosyncratic show that maybe no one would watch but might be hopefully artistically celebrated and that was probably what I thought yeah yeah and I kept hearing the words um this might be a cult hit and usually cult hit means no one will watch it but a few people might like it yeah yeah yeah right
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I kept hearing that to the point where I almost was like quite pessimistic about it.
Guest:I still believed in it in my soul, but I think enough people thought that not many people would watch it or had estimated that not many people would watch it.
Guest:There was a bit of a kind of, oh man, I really believe in this.
Guest:Come on, I think it could do well.
Guest:But I think a lot of people thought it might disappear without a trace just due to how weird it is.
Guest:Netflix, it's hard to tell.
Guest:I think that everyone had a different opinion, really.
Marc:Once you got the scripts in.
Guest:Yeah, I think, well, once it was shot, really, I think.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I think, yeah, that we had a long edit and, you know, figuring it out and moving stuff around and making drastic cuts and, you know, that we really went through it in the edit in a lot of ways and...
Guest:I think by the end of it, there was a whole myriad of opinions as to how it would go.
Guest:I think some people thought, you know, it would be... Maybe no one at all would watch it.
Marc:I didn't know anything about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, and I think... I don't know.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:I remember, like, I was like, well, what is this?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and then when I watched it, I was like, you got to watch it.
Marc:Because, you know, it personally resonated with me in a way.
Marc:And...
Marc:It, you know, I thought it was mind blowing and I, and I, for all the reasons that you're talking about.
Marc:So now after this is done, what do you, what do you end up, what do you think doing?
Marc:What do you, what, what, what do you, sorry, I'm just, you know, monitoring.
Guest:Is everything all right?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:Yeah, we're okay.
Marc:Yeah, I can confidently say we're okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So once you exercise, you know, these parts of you and you're the kind of act that you are, even if you do, you've done a lot of these high concept shows that were driven by a vulnerability and a place, you know, of darkness in you.
Marc:I mean, how do you feel in terms of your confidence to generate outside of yourself?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because I'm doing a new show now, which is generating outside of myself, fictional world, fictional characters.
Guest:Really excited for the challenge, really.
Guest:It actually feels quite nice to have a break from this inward-looking, self-sabotaging, self-hating sort of habit of writing that I developed.
Guest:It's definitely time to spin 180 and try a different thing.
Guest:And so I'm doing a BBC HBO show now called Half Man, filming in a couple of weeks.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:And how different is the character from you if there is a single character?
Guest:Very different.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I'm taking a real gamble, but I believe in that.
Guest:Are you going to be the guy?
Guest:uh, the, the guy like acting in it.
Guest:I'm going to act in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm not, I'm not, we've got Jamie Bell playing the main character, which is pretty cool.
Guest:Really cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, and, um, but yeah, the character's departure for sure from, from Donnie Dunn and, um, but I believe in kind of risk.
Guest:I think the key to a good career almost is risk, risk.
Guest:And, and, and so I'm, and HBO is doing this one.
Guest:HBO, BBC, yeah.
Guest:Did Netflix not want to?
Guest:Well, this was actually commissioned before Baby Reindeer or during Baby Reindeer.
Guest:And so I'm actually going back and honoring that commission right after Baby Reindeer finished.
Guest:I love BBC.
Guest:They must love that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I love the project and I really want it to be good.
Guest:So I'm going to work real hard on it.
Guest:Well, I have been working really hard on it.
Guest:You're shooting now?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to shoot in a couple of weeks.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And so, yeah, there's a lot of writing and a lot of casting and a lot of all these things going on.
Guest:But I'm, you know, and then I'm flying out here every now and again to do the old sort of thing.
Guest:So it's a really busy time.
Marc:Are you directing too?
Guest:Not directing this one, no.
Guest:We've got Alexandria Brodsky directing it, which I'm really excited about.
Marc:It's a one-off or it's a series?
Guest:uh it's a one-off okay yeah i quite like i quite like a limited i like a limited series you can kind of it gives you freedom to go out and do but it is a series but a limited series it's a series yeah what are you looking like six episodes yeah six episodes yeah yeah so it's uh yeah it's exciting and it's a new challenge and it's something i haven't done before and uh yeah and i get nervous stepping outside my comfort zone but you got to do it i think and how's your personal life
Guest:Pretty non-existent.
Guest:I've been such a workaholic for so many years, I almost don't have a personal life.
Marc:Yeah, and how are your folks feeling about all the revelations and the process?
Guest:Taking it in their stride.
Guest:They almost became kind of famous for a hot minute as well when the show came out.
Guest:You know, they were impressed on their doorstep and people desperate to interview my parents and all this kind of stuff.
Guest:How'd they take to that?
Guest:They took to it really...
Guest:In their stride, they're strong, my parents.
Guest:They're strong, but I think they thought it was all... I don't think any family can be prepared for the kind of onslaught that kind of came or the kind of sudden interest in me and in that.
Marc:And then the intrigue after and whatever happened after outside of the show.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But they've been very strong and taken it in their stride.
Guest:They're so supportive.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:They've never ever told me not to do what I'm doing in the sense of... I always think a lot of parents...
Guest:You know, if somebody's like, I'm going off to be a comedian actor.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It'd make them nervous, but they were very supportive.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Well, it was certainly great talking to you.
Marc:I'm glad we were able to do it.
Guest:Yes, and you.
Guest:Thanks so much for having me on.
Guest:That was a real honor.
Guest:I've listened to this podcast so much, so thank you.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Great talking to you.
Marc:Heavy conversation.
Marc:I recommend you watch Baby Reindeer.
Marc:It is brutal.
Marc:It is real.
Marc:It could be very disturbing to some people, but the honesty of it is a rare thing.
Marc:Again, Richard is nominated for a SAG Award for his performance in Baby Reindeer.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:Folks, four years ago today, we were still hunkering down at home doing interviews over Zoom, but that allowed me to talk to Kate Winslet, who was also stuck at home over in England.
Marc:I woke up in a lockdown frenzy, just aggravated.
Marc:You?
Guest:No, actually.
Guest:Well, actually, no, I was slightly agitated because I didn't sleep very well last night.
Marc:Why?
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:What's happening?
Guest:No, nothing.
Guest:I mean, no specific reason, although I did dream that I got vaccinated and that it didn't work.
Guest:Oh, so maybe I was woken up out of that.
Guest:Well, I dreamt that they had done that.
Guest:They had put the vaccination.
Guest:The needle had gone into my arm, but only half of the vial had gone in.
Guest:They'd taken the needle out and the liquid was spraying all over like me all over the floor.
Guest:And then no one seemed to know how to cope with it, what to do.
Guest:So they couldn't work out whether they should revaccinate me just half a vial, whether they should just discount that one and just do the whole thing all over again.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was very anxious making, just because nobody knew what the protocol was.
Guest:And that I found really scary.
Marc:Well, that's a global problem.
Guest:Well, precisely.
Guest:I mean, I was dreaming about the world, clearly.
Marc:That's Kate Winslet from episode 1192, and you can listen to that for free on whatever app you're using.
Marc:For every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for WTF+.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder, before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:This is one take guitar.
Marc:I didn't have time or the...
Marc:mental fortitude to sit here and work it out for an hour.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Talk to you later.
Marc:Thanks for being there.
guitar solo
Bye.
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.