Episode 1592 - Cynthia Erivo
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron and this is my podcast wtf
Marc:Ongoing.
Marc:Ongoing.
Marc:Going on.
Marc:Today I'm going to talk to Cynthia Erivo.
Marc:She's a Tony, Emmy, and Grammy winner.
Marc:She was nominated for the Best Actress Oscar for the movie Harriet.
Marc:Amazing woman.
Marc:born and raised in London.
Marc:Her big breakout in the U.S.
Marc:was on Broadway in The Color Purple.
Marc:She's been in Bad Times at the El Royale, which I liked.
Marc:And she played Aretha Franklin in the Nat Geo series Genius.
Marc:And that was with David Cross
Marc:Playing Jerry Wexler, who I played in the Respect movie.
Marc:I always wanted to... I think I told Cynthia that.
Marc:I've always wanted to do like a dueling Wexler thing with...
Marc:With Dave.
Marc:But I had a great conversation with Cynthia.
Marc:I'll be back on tour starting in January.
Marc:Sacramento, California.
Marc:I'll be at the Crest Theater on Friday, January 10th.
Marc:Napa, California at the Uptown Theater on Saturday, January 11th.
Marc:I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado.
Marc:Lincoln Center Performance Hall on Friday, January 17th.
Marc:Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on Saturday, January 18th.
Marc:Santa Barbara, California at the Lobero Theater.
Marc:Theater on Thursday, January 30th.
Marc:San Luis Obispo, California at the Fremont Center on Friday, January 31st.
Marc:And Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1st.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.
Marc:Also this week is your last chance to submit Ask Mark Anything questions.
Marc:We'll be posting the latest Ask Mark Anything bonus episode next week.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description to submit a question.
Marc:What have I been doing?
Marc:I went to an art opening.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I went to an art opening.
Marc:Nick Kroll's wife, Lily Kwong, she does a lot of work with plants.
Marc:I know that sounds odd, but I think it's a photographic process.
Marc:I don't know if they're called... Are they called photograms?
Marc:There's a lot of pieces where the actual plants are laid onto photographic paper, and then there's some...
Marc:You know, the process of exposure and the process of developing the paper.
Marc:And it's very it was very interesting.
Marc:It was a beautiful show.
Marc:It's always nice to go to the art opening.
Marc:Saw some old friends there.
Marc:But what was funny was I saw Jonathan Ames there, who had been on this show maybe a couple of times years ago.
Marc:He was consumed in panic.
Marc:And I ran into who else was Ed Helms.
Marc:Oh, this is what happened.
Marc:The art was great.
Marc:It's down at the... The space is amazing.
Marc:I think it's called the Knight Gallery.
Marc:But it was nice to go to that.
Marc:So anyway, I run into...
Marc:Ed Helms, who I haven't seen in probably decades, probably since he's done this show, and he's a nice guy, banjo player.
Marc:He famously did this show, and he was having a cat allergy, and he was just wheezing out there in the old garage.
Marc:And I just didn't help him.
Marc:I needed to get that hour.
Marc:He was going to play some banjo.
Marc:He got through it, but I felt bad that I...
Marc:Kind of kept him wheezing to get through the show.
Marc:But anyway, so I'm talking to Ed and he goes, I got to split.
Marc:And I'm like, where are you going?
Marc:He's like, this is going to sound weird, but I'm going to a listening party for Ringo Starr's new record.
Marc:And I remembered that I had been invited to that by T-Bone Burnett.
Marc:This is not dropping names.
Marc:I get invited to nothing.
Marc:But out of nowhere, weeks ago, when I was shooting the movie, T-Bone had emailed me and we don't talk, but he said this is happening.
Marc:And I just spaced it out.
Marc:And Ed said he's going.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God, I think I was invited to that.
Marc:Where is it?
Marc:And he's like, it's in Santa Monica.
Marc:I'm like, ah, fuck.
Marc:So I'm like, well, fuck it.
Marc:I'm going to go.
Marc:You know, it's one of those things where it's like, I don't know what it's going to be like, but it'll be a room full of people sitting probably with Ringo Starr listening to his new record.
Marc:So I'm like, fuck it.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:And I got there.
Marc:It was down at Village Studios in Santa Monica.
Marc:A lot of stuff happened there.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I was scrambling.
Marc:So we drive down there.
Marc:We're in separate cars.
Marc:I show up.
Marc:I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:And I see, like, well, they recognize me because I did Conan with them, the milk carton kids, Kenneth and Joey.
Marc:And they were like, hey, what's up?
Marc:I'm like, all right, these guys, I know these guys.
Marc:And then it's just in this large room.
Marc:There were some snacks there, a little bar.
Marc:There was a lot of, like, solidly proud, gray-haired people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's always nice to see the proud gray hair and a lot of like seem like, you know, kind of groovy, aging rock women, rock who were once rock girls.
Marc:It was just it was an interesting mix of people.
Marc:I read Ed Begley and his wife were there, who I know.
Marc:Joe Walsh was there because I believe he's married to Ringo's wife's sister.
Marc:And, you know, I interviewed Joe and I said, hey, how you doing?
Marc:It's me, Mark.
Marc:I don't think he had any recollection, but he was very polite.
Marc:But Stephen Stills was there.
Marc:So that was kind of crazy.
Marc:And it's very casual.
Marc:You know, there's maybe 70 people there.
Marc:And I imagine they're mostly friends of Ringo's.
Marc:And I've never talked to Ringo.
Marc:I've never met Ringo.
Marc:I've never been in a room with Ringo.
Marc:I'd like to have him on the podcast.
Marc:It's always exciting if you in your life are ever in a position to meet a Beatle.
Marc:One of the magic people.
Marc:And Ringo is so specific.
Marc:He's specifically Ringo.
Marc:But he wasn't in the room when I got there.
Marc:I'm hanging around.
Marc:That Tyson fight was supposed to happen later.
Marc:And I'd gotten myself into that fucking mindset of like, yeah, I just want to see Tyson kill that guy.
Marc:But I don't think that was even a real fight.
Marc:It's more of a wrestling match, right?
Marc:It's the age of the heel.
Marc:And I just feel like it was all set up.
Marc:It was a throne fight for big money that was not even on the professional fight docket, if that even exists anymore.
Marc:And it just seemed like...
Marc:That dude, that influencer, it's like this is the age of the amateur and the age of the heel.
Marc:But I don't know what was up, you know, but I got into the mindset like I'd like to see Mike beat the shit out of that guy.
Marc:And then I realized like this is fucking wrestling, man.
Marc:This isn't boxing.
Marc:This whole scam is a wrestling scam.
Marc:He's a fucking heel scam.
Marc:Yeah, who would have known that Mike would be the face?
Marc:But anyway, so we're hanging out, I'm eating the hummus, and Ringo comes in, and I was just like, I gotta meet Ringo Starr.
Marc:But there was people around him, and I have no way in, and believe it or not, I'm fairly nervous still with most people.
Marc:I didn't even know how to, I was terrified of Stephen Stills.
Marc:He strikes me as a frightening guy.
Marc:He's very intimidating.
Marc:But Stephen Stills was one of the best, one of the best singers, certainly, songwriters.
Marc:But I did end up meeting him and his wife.
Marc:And I met Ringo.
Marc:And I was there with a little circle of people.
Marc:And they were talking about Richard Lewis.
Marc:And Ringo was talking about Richard Lewis.
Marc:And we were talking about how we missed Richard Lewis.
Marc:But he's so Ringo.
Marc:He's so fucking Ringo.
Marc:Ringo is.
Marc:And everyone just sat around and listened to his new country record that was produced by T-Bone, who didn't come.
Marc:But it was very exciting.
Marc:And I don't, you know, this is not some humble brag or name drop fast.
Marc:I was just, you know, I was in a room with Ringo Starr and he was being very Ringo Starr-like and it was enjoyable.
Marc:And the record was also enjoyable.
Marc:Oh, you want me to catch you up on the vacuum situation?
Marc:So I gave the Spark vacuum, I think that's the brand, to Kit.
Marc:And the broken vacuum is out here waiting to be taken away by me.
Marc:It's in Whittier.
Marc:It's not in Downey.
Marc:And I've got the other Dyson.
Marc:I got a lot of input on the vacuums.
Marc:Anytime I talk about practical things, I get a lot of input.
Marc:I know, the meal vacuum, everyone loves that.
Marc:But I've gotten kind of accustomed to these Dysons.
Marc:I like the Dyson.
Marc:They break.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But I just went and bought the new animal, the Animal 3, and then someone...
Marc:emailed me and hit me to the fact that they, they actually suck too hard, but I, so I got another animal too, and I'm all good.
Marc:I got the broom style vacuum and then I got the animal too, and that's it.
Marc:And the broken one.
Marc:So we leveled off on that.
Marc:So, Cynthia.
Marc:Cynthia Erivo.
Marc:Truly talented person.
Marc:I went and watched Wicked.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I don't know the play.
Marc:I don't know the movie.
Marc:It's just part one.
Marc:That's what I found out.
Marc:But it's pretty, and the singing is nice, and she's great in it.
Marc:But she's also done a lot of stuff, and I was very...
Marc:Interested to talk to her about her life.
Marc:Wicked opens in theaters this Friday, November 22nd.
Marc:And this is me talking to Cynthia Erivo.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:So wait, tell me about this big show business event.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The Gala, the Academy.
Marc:Is it the Academy Awards or just the Academy?
Guest:Just the Academy.
Guest:So it's often to raise money.
Guest:I think it's mainly to raise money to keep the Academy Museum open and going and expanding.
Guest:Is that where it was?
Guest:That's where it was, yeah.
Marc:I've never been there.
Guest:What is that like?
Guest:It's really beautiful.
Marc:Where is it?
Guest:It's LACMA, which is near.
Marc:Oh, it's in LACMA.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's really beautiful.
Marc:And they have just stuff from the history of show business.
Guest:The history of film specifically.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So like everything from the actual academies themselves.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then film throughout the ages.
Guest:And sometimes they'll have like retrospectives on particular.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think I, you know what?
Marc:I think I saw the Kubrick one there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think that's where that was.
Guest:It was a really cool one.
Marc:Oh, that's crazy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They did a Kubrick one.
Guest:I feel like they did Pablo Amadova as well.
Guest:Oh, that would make sense.
Guest:That was really cool.
Guest:That's colorful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They did, yes.
Guest:They did some cool bits on Barbara, Barbara Streisand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like some really lovely things to see.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's like a costume retrospective.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And it changes.
Marc:So you get this gig.
Marc:They're like, we want her to sing there.
Guest:yes so i was asked to come in and sing how do you feel generally about those kind of gigs i like them yeah you're just sort of like okay yeah i the thing is i like singing live anyway and if i can have a live band or a live mini orchestra behind me i'm happy was there a host uh there yes there were a few hosts oh yeah there wasn't like one main host for the night so it's a big fancy thing yeah who was there who was the hosts
Guest:Who hosted?
Guest:Saoirse Ronan hosted for Paul Maskell.
Guest:John Travolta hosted for Quentin Tarantino.
Guest:Did he talk a lot?
Guest:He actually did not.
Guest:It was really succinct and sweet.
Guest:And I think he donated his handwritten script for Pulp Fiction.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Which was really cool.
Guest:And, oh, Steven Spielberg for Rita Moreno.
Guest:It was wonderful.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Black tie?
Marc:Everyone's dressed up?
Guest:Yeah, everyone's dressed up, very black ties.
Marc:That's how I know that I'm not in the big time.
Marc:There was never a point where I said, I guess I better buy a tuxedo.
Guest:But sometimes, the thing is right now, I feel like tuxedos are sort of like, if you want.
Marc:Yeah, no, sure.
Guest:Black tie is kind of left to the person.
Marc:Yeah, you're better off going with something unique, maybe a kilt.
Marc:I mean, sure.
Marc:Yeah, why not?
Guest:Although that's kind of like a throwback to the 90s, really.
Marc:What, the kilt thing?
Guest:Yeah, it's very Alexander McQueen.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I remember the kilt period.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Historically, there's no reason for me to wear a kilt.
Marc:I couldn't.
Guest:I mean, I ended up wearing a kilt when I was at secondary school, and there was no real reason for me to wear a kilt except for that.
Marc:Was that the plaid dress?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a plaid skirt.
Guest:Like a plaid skirt.
Guest:It was a kilt.
Marc:Like wool?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For Catholic school?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Well, I don't understand that whole outfit.
Marc:I don't understand where it comes from historically.
Marc:I don't know why that's a thing.
Guest:I actually think it comes from, now I may be wrong, but I think it originally comes from, strangely enough, Japan.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Ancient Japan.
Marc:Ancient Japan.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I might be wrong.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I was doing some weird research for some reason.
Marc:I like the idea because it's very provoking.
Marc:Now, a lot of people will be like, I'm going to have to put this on pause.
Guest:And if I'm wrong, I apologize, but I'm so sure about it.
Marc:You know, even if you're wrong, people are going to learn something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's further back than we realize.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So your day was okay?
Guest:Yeah, the day was okay.
Guest:I woke up very late.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:But I think my body had been asking for a lot of sleep because I've been on different time zones for a while.
Marc:I don't understand my fitness watch.
Marc:Do you wear one?
No.
Guest:I don't anymore.
Guest:I think it makes me become really obsessed with it.
Guest:I love fitness.
Guest:I'm a fitness freak.
Guest:But when I have my fitness watch, it just... What were you using?
Guest:Both.
Guest:Flip it and Apple.
Marc:I got this one.
Marc:Whoop.
Guest:Oh, I've been told about the Whoop.
Marc:And it's just on your phone.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But like, you know, I got enough sleep, you know, because I exercise too.
Marc:I don't know if I'm as... I do it compulsively, but I don't know if it's as much as you.
Guest:Well, if you're doing it compulsively, I think it's probably as much as me.
Marc:Well, I mean, compulsive exercise just means on the days you don't exercise, you beat the shit out of yourself.
Guest:Sometimes that happens.
Guest:Occasionally.
Guest:I have to, like, have a conversation with myself sometimes.
Guest:If I'm, like, not working out today, you don't need to work out because you worked out yesterday and you're totally fine.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:Don't get so upset because you haven't.
Guest:Don't feel guilty.
Marc:But most of the time I do.
Marc:Well, I got up and like my thing said I didn't recover properly.
Marc:Like this one, I don't even know what it's based on.
Marc:Recovery.
Marc:Body recovery.
Guest:Maybe just like your breathing, the oxygen is coming in.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But it woke up this morning and like it said, you know, you didn't recover enough.
Marc:And usually that's where I just push through because they give you an optimal exercise.
Marc:But I'm like, it's not quite enough.
Marc:So I'm over there.
Marc:I got up early and I went and did that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:It kind of beat me up a little bit.
Guest:I don't know if I want to be made to feel guilty by my watch.
Marc:That's a little intense.
Marc:But that's what you experienced, right?
Marc:You just got obsessed with it.
Marc:Is there a difference?
Guest:Yeah, well, the thing is, so, like, I'll set the problem with the Apple or the Fitbit, which both work really well because they sort of, like, keep you on track, but...
Guest:If you set an amount of steps to do, and then one day you just don't do that amount of steps, then your watch will be like, well, you're behind on your steps by this amount, and it'll keep coming up until you beat your steps.
Guest:So then you keep going until you beat the steps.
Guest:Sometimes there are days where you just can't.
Marc:Don't want to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You need to sit down for a second.
Marc:So the obsession with the watch is always going to lead to some sort of shame.
Guest:A little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I take breaks.
Guest:Me and the watch separate for a little bit sometimes.
Marc:Yeah, you get – well, I'm shooting.
Marc:You can't have them on when you're shooting.
Guest:No.
Marc:So then you get a big break.
Guest:No, and then you're like – yeah.
Marc:And then you're like, am I healthy still?
Guest:Well, here's the thing with Fitbit.
Guest:You can take the wrist – the band off and you just pin it to you.
Marc:So you're going to tell me that under the witch's outfit, you had your Fitbit on?
Guest:Yes.
Yeah.
Marc:Did you check it during the day?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I'm not even joking.
Guest:When you're walking up the stairs in the castle?
Guest:No, I'm being so serious.
Guest:I had it on me all day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, that's... I can either put it in my boot.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like by my ankle.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Because that's where my pulse is.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or I put it like on my hip.
Marc:And were you actively trying to get your steps in as the witch?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, just trying to get the steps in full stop.
Guest:Like, if we're on a break, I'm not sitting down.
Marc:I want to get my steps.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess I'm not that obsessed.
Guest:Yeah, but the thing is, it was sort of nice to be like, oh, this is where I'm going to move to this now.
Guest:On my little mini breaks, we're going to do some steps.
Guest:I'm going to walk.
Guest:I'm going to move.
Guest:As opposed to being sedentary, because that's the thing on set sometimes.
Guest:You can fall into being really sedentary and just not moving.
Marc:Just in the trailer.
Guest:Yeah, and just waiting.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I have not figured out a way to fully make that time constructive.
Guest:I am a busybody.
Marc:Yeah, me too, generally.
Marc:But if I'm sitting in the trailer, I'd rather be sitting on set.
Marc:I'd rather be looking at food.
Marc:Let's take another walk around where the food is.
Marc:I'm still not going to eat that.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not going to eat it ever, never.
Guest:I'm like that weird school kid who only brings her own food to the set.
Guest:I make my own food and bring it to the set.
Marc:I don't bring mine to the set, but I make my own food.
Guest:Yeah, I have like a little lunchbox.
Marc:But when you're doing the steps, you take the witch shoes off, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I can't change out of the costume.
Guest:I'm just like moving.
Marc:So you're clomping around?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What kind of shoes were those?
Guest:Like boots, but it was proper heel.
Guest:So depending on what part of what stage of which I was, which changed.
Guest:So at the beginning, there was sort of a shorter boot with a shorter heel.
Guest:And the heel got higher and the boot got taller as she changed.
Marc:So what's your primary exercise?
Guest:Pilates and walking and running.
Marc:You run a lot?
Guest:I do.
Marc:What kind of shoe are you wearing?
Guest:I'm in the on cloud.
Marc:You do the on cloud?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Me too.
Guest:I love them.
Guest:They're really comfortable.
Marc:Do you do the ones that are closer to the ground?
Guest:Depending.
Guest:If I'm walking, I do the ones that are closer to the ground.
Guest:But if I'm running, I do with the cloud boost.
Marc:What about the hokas now?
Guest:I've never tried the hookers.
Marc:There's just too much heel.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're way up there.
Guest:You're too high.
Guest:However, there is a Nike one that has, like, it's a zoom, I think.
Guest:It's got a weird shape to it.
Guest:I use those to run the marathon.
Guest:They're amazing.
Marc:A marathon.
Marc:You do full marathons?
Guest:I do a full marathon.
Guest:I've done a couple full marathons and a few half marathons.
Marc:That's a lot.
Guest:It is a lot.
Guest:It is a lot.
Guest:And doesn't it beat your body up pretty bad?
Guest:It does, which is why I don't do it as often as I want to.
Guest:But I try and do one.
Guest:I mean, every couple of years, I'm probably doing a marathon.
Marc:Have you figured out what you're running from?
Guest:Well, here's the thing.
Guest:That's an interesting question.
Guest:People think that when you're running, you're running from something.
Guest:I think I'm running from like – I think I'm all running to all of the things I'm thinking of because I kind of use running to process things.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It feels like a meditation for me.
Marc:So you can get like – because for me, I never really identified the dopamine situation.
Marc:Oh, my gosh.
Marc:But it's like it becomes essential to your sanity if you don't do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't feel like I'm running from anything, but if I can get to that point where I'm not thinking about how far I'm running.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because time goes by a lot faster.
Marc:If you don't listen to music.
Guest:I don't either.
Marc:I don't sometimes, but I notice when I don't, it goes by faster.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I don't quite understand why that is.
Guest:Well, because I think you are actually like paying attention to what is around you.
Guest:And you're also thinking.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because when you have music on, you're listening to lyrics and you know how long the song is.
Marc:And then you know how long the next song is.
Guest:And you do your songs about three minutes.
Guest:So if there's only one song playing, it's only three minutes gone.
Guest:So it feels like the time is taking a really long time.
Guest:If you're not listening to anything, you don't know what time it is.
Guest:Yes, it's the best thing.
Guest:You're just going with what your body wants to go with.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And essentially, trying not to sound hokey here, but you are listening to what your body needs to listen to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if you need to put more energy into your thigh or your leg, then that's where it goes.
Guest:If you need to put more energy into your breathing, that's where it goes.
Guest:Or if you need to be in your head for a second, then you can be in your head for a second.
Guest:So that's why it doesn't take as long, I think, when you're not listening to music.
Marc:What I notice, too, is sometimes when I'm running and I am hung up on the time,
Marc:Like I always think like before I check, I'll take the towel off of the treadmill and check how long I've run.
Marc:Every time I think like I've passed, I will check the mileage at exactly the same time.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:No matter what.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my brain's sort of like, no, we're much further along.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't even bother with it.
Guest:It doesn't work.
Guest:If I'm on the treadmill, I put an iPad up and I just watch something.
Guest:And I'll find a film that is stupid amounts of time so that I know I'm not going to finish the film.
Marc:That's what I do in the trailer now.
Guest:Just find a film, find a book, something, anything.
Guest:Or I'm like a busybody and I visit everyone if I'm sat for any amount of time.
Marc:So what about your diet?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Do you just eat regular?
Guest:No, I don't necessarily eat.
Guest:Well, I mean, it's regular for me, but it's probably not regular for other people.
Marc:I've been vegan for like almost two years.
Guest:I've been vegan for a long time.
Guest:You're vegan?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm like, I love fruit and veg.
Guest:I'm like a proper like fruit and veg eater.
Guest:And occasionally I'll go and have like a meat replacement.
Guest:Not much?
Guest:Not much.
Marc:Not much meat replacements?
Guest:Because there's no need.
Guest:Mushrooms do all of the work for you.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can make them taste like anything.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Well, taste.
Marc:But you don't get hung up on protein?
Guest:Well, I try to get protein because I try to do a protein shake in the morning.
Guest:And I'm trying to be better about it.
Guest:I think I can probably find it in beans and things like that.
Marc:That's what I do, yeah.
Guest:But that's basically it.
Guest:Tempeh?
Guest:I don't like the texture of tempeh.
Marc:I like the texture of tempeh.
Marc:I don't like the texture of tofu.
Guest:Oh, I like the texture of tofu.
Guest:But here's the thing.
Guest:Because you can do things like, what's the thing I like to do?
Guest:Mousse, chocolate mousse.
Guest:You can make chocolate mousse with tofu.
Guest:And it doesn't, there's no, it's like the texture of tofu.
Marc:Well, yeah, if you use the soft tofu.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've seen an Instagram influencer do that.
Marc:And I follow a bunch of vegan influences.
Marc:I'm like, how am I going to make that?
Marc:I had kind of a disappointing vegan breakfast today.
Marc:I'm just trying to recover from it.
Marc:What did you have?
Marc:Sometimes when you go to restaurants, there's just too much glop.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:What is that made of?
Marc:What is it supposed to taste like?
Marc:And there's too much of it.
Marc:And it was annoying.
Marc:The glop.
Guest:See, I'll make it myself.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:I'll do what I want myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel the same about like smoothies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you get someone else to make a smoothie.
Guest:Too much sugar.
Guest:Too much sugar, but also not enough ice ever.
Guest:So it's always like liquid.
Guest:And I want it to be a smoothie, which means it's supposed to be thick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's supposed to be thick and cold.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then they make it into like milk.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm just like.
Marc:No, it's not good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You want to struggle to get it up the straw.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That's what I want.
Marc:Because that puts us in milkshake brain.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Marc:That's what I'm saying.
Marc:I want this to feel like dessert.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Marc:That's what I want.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I agree 100%.
Guest:I want this to fill me.
Guest:I want it to be filling.
Guest:I don't want it to feel like a drink.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sometimes it's too much sugar.
Marc:It's sugar and everything.
Guest:But you just don't need that much sugar in a smoothie if you put the right ingredients in.
Guest:Everything else has – like fruit is naturally sweet.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And if I have too much sugar, like I did on whatever the guap was on a pancake, then I'm chasing the sugar all day.
Guest:No.
Marc:Then I need to eat a cookie.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's not good.
Guest:You just don't need it.
Marc:Well, I'm glad we covered all the fitness stuff up front.
Marc:The on-cloud stuff, though, now I got to... Like, I used to have a guy over there.
Marc:Give me the shoes.
Marc:You getting them for free?
Marc:You got to work it out.
Guest:I'm buying them.
Marc:Yeah, you got to work it out.
Guest:I am buying these shoes.
Marc:Yeah, you got to work it out.
Guest:I would love to work it out.
Guest:Why have I not?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who's in charge of your things?
Marc:Okay, true.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Come on now.
Marc:Yeah, if you like those on-shoes, you should be getting a dozen boxes.
Guest:And I use them until they are, like...
Guest:Dead in the ground.
Marc:I just met a guy one night at the comedy store when I was working.
Marc:He's like, you know about these shoes?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:He's like, I can get you some.
Marc:I'm like, all right.
Guest:Please, can someone do that for me?
Guest:Because my shoes are torn up.
Guest:I am wearing them to lay a nothing.
Marc:Cynthia needs some on-running stuff.
Guest:Immediately.
Marc:Immediately.
Marc:We'll try to get the word out.
Guest:Please, because I vacillate between the two, so I'm wearing the On Cloud Cloudburst ones.
Guest:Okay, getting specific.
Guest:See, this is what I'm saying.
Marc:Now you know I actually wear them, right?
Marc:I know, I knew you did.
Guest:And then the way we do a flat runner, I love them because of how the sole moves.
Guest:It's really dexterous.
Guest:I can hike with those and feel great.
Marc:I have the hiking ons.
Marc:They make a hiking on.
Marc:They make a hiking on?
Marc:Yeah, they used to make a full hiking boot, both ankle and low cut.
Marc:But now they have a low one that's basically a hiking sneaker.
Marc:I've worn those.
Marc:You've got to be careful, though.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Well, no, just in hiking.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:A dog bit my ear yesterday.
Guest:What did you say?
Marc:I said a dog bit my ear.
Guest:Like a dog actually bit your ear?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And I'm in the middle of shooting something.
Marc:So I'm sort of like, no, fuck.
Marc:It's right by my face.
Marc:How did, how did, what happened?
Marc:I was sitting down and my girlfriend's dog bit my ear.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:It's a crazy dog.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And then I was going to go on a hike today, but I'm like, I can't, I don't want to go on a hike because what if I fall down on my face?
Marc:Yeah, then like you're shooting and now it's like, if you're shooting at a sequence, they're going to have to be like, maybe you just hurt your foot in between those.
Marc:And then I got all paranoid that they're not going to be able to fit me.
Guest:This is like fatalistic thinking to the max.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I'm good at that.
Guest:How did you get from the dog with my ear to I can't hike?
Marc:I can't hike.
Marc:Because I fell down once on the hike.
Marc:And I'm old.
Marc:And when I run down, there's always the menace.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Which is great.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:I don't want to be like, hey, you got to, you know.
Guest:I once did a hike, and I really, I actually really almost got completely lost, like, in the middle of the forest.
Marc:That can happen, man.
Marc:I went on a dead trail.
Marc:It was bad.
Marc:That can, like, that is bad.
Marc:It was bad.
Marc:Where was that?
Guest:I was, where was I?
Guest:I want to, I can't even remember where I'd gone, but, like...
Guest:Was it Laurel Canyon or something like that?
Guest:Oh, was it up here?
Guest:It might have been up here.
Guest:Was it hot?
Guest:And it was very hot.
Guest:See, that's dangerous.
Guest:It was really hot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was following a map, and it took me down a dead trail.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was, like, covered in leaves.
Guest:And I was like, well, I don't think...
Guest:i don't know if this is the right direction but i don't know it's the only direction it's giving me so i'm just gonna keep going yeah and i'm like i could feel like i was going away from everybody else yeah everyone is going in a different direction and i seem to be going like in a different direction and down okay so it's getting dark but it was but it was the hollywood hills though right it was here well you weren't out in the wilderness you were
Guest:No, but it felt like I was in the middle of nowhere.
Marc:It gets so scary now with the climate because you don't know what you can get through.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And when I got down there, there was like, there was a tree that had fallen over.
Guest:So that was in the way.
Guest:Bad sign.
Guest:And then there was, so I went over the tree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can get over the tree.
Guest:It's not too, it's not crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then there's a gate.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There was like a fence.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Guest:And I was like, oh, how do I get out?
Marc:In Glendale.
Marc:You weren't in Glendale?
Guest:When I tell you I have no idea where I was because this map took me.
Marc:Oh, you just looked up a hike?
Guest:I just looked up a hike and said, go here.
Guest:Because sometimes I go to a trainer occasionally.
Guest:And because I think I might be a glutton for punishment or sadistic, whichever you want to call it, I walk there.
Guest:And it's seven miles away from where I live.
Guest:So I walk the seven miles.
Marc:You live here?
Guest:I live Studio City.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So I walk from Studio City.
Guest:I had to walk into, so you have to walk.
Guest:Seven miles.
Guest:Seven miles to, it's like West Hollywood is where he lives, just past West Hollywood.
Guest:And on the way back, it didn't give me the same directions.
Guest:It took me a completely different route.
Marc:Oh, so the whole seven miles is in the hills?
Guest:Yeah, it's all the way up the hills.
Guest:And then you end up going down the Laurel Canyon Drive.
Guest:It's like it's horrible to walk on.
Guest:Yeah, terrible.
Guest:Because there is no sidewalk.
Marc:No, it's dangerous.
Guest:It's very dangerous.
Guest:But I do it anyway, which don't do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Anytime I see someone walking on that, I'm like, oh, that's not a good story.
Guest:No, and the thing is I'm used to it now.
Guest:And the last, but for some reason the last time it took me a sensible route so I could go.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:But the sensible route is all uphill, so.
Guest:But that's good.
Guest:Well.
Guest:Yeah, it's good for you, the uphill, no?
Guest:Not when it's never-ending and you're on a razor scooter.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So I took the razor scooter the last time thinking I could help myself.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:It was bad.
Marc:How long have you lived here?
Marc:I thought you lived in London.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I moved from London in 2015 to New York for us to do a musical.
Guest:And then I moved from... For The Color Purple?
Guest:For The Color Purple.
Marc:That's when that happened?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With Jennifer Hudson?
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:That's a big show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You won a prize.
Marc:I did.
Marc:A couple, yeah.
Marc:A couple prizes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Prizes are nice, aren't they?
Marc:They are nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They are nice.
Marc:I never won them.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:The prize is life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm working on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You do it.
Guest:You are working on it.
Guest:That's what we're discussing right now.
Guest:That is what we're discussing.
Marc:I better figure it out soon.
Marc:I want to still be able to appreciate it.
Marc:I don't want it to be too late.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:The prize.
Marc:I won the prize.
Marc:It's so funny because you were in the Aretha show, right?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because my friend, who I've known forever, David Cross, played Wexler.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I played Wexler in the Jennifer Hudson movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I wanted to do dueling Wexlers with David.
Yeah.
Marc:But we never got around to it.
Guest:He should have.
Guest:He was so wonderful.
Guest:I loved working with him, man.
Guest:He was really cool.
Marc:Did you like doing Aretha?
Guest:I did.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I did.
Guest:It was tough, though.
Marc:Dark stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:Because with our film, there's a lot of stuff in terms of our movie.
Marc:I don't think the estate even let us touch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think we touched it a little bit.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How many episodes was it?
Guest:I would say it was 10 episodes, maybe.
Guest:About the pregnancies and stuff?
Guest:We did a couple episodes about pregnancies.
Guest:Because she was young, man.
Guest:She was like a baby.
Marc:I mean like a baby.
Marc:She was a baby.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that, like, it's so weird when you see... How did you approach...
Marc:The character.
Marc:What was this?
Marc:What was this?
Marc:Because she had this kind of interesting because there's so much footage of her early on, you know, being shot on TV where she has almost a flat affect.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it just seemed like somebody who was dead inside.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But but shut down.
Marc:Shut down.
Marc:And that husband was not any help.
Marc:No.
Guest:And she was sort of.
Guest:We did that to the first husband was bad.
Marc:Yeah, because, like, she was almost Stockholm Syndrome, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was bad.
Marc:So it's an interesting thing to have to play.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because she's not dead inside.
Marc:No, she's just closed down.
Marc:And then it all comes out in the music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that was the hardest thing to sort of, like, figure out how to sort of, like, navigate that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because what I loved watching in her interviews is like over time, she sort of like, it was like watching her sort of like inch out and come out of her shell.
Guest:That's when she starts making jokes when she's like, by the 60s and 70s.
Marc:When she gets out from under that guy.
Guest:Yeah, she starts being herself in front of people.
Guest:A little bit shadier, a bit more jokey, a bit more poke fun, you know.
Guest:Saying the things that she actually wants to say.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Even though it's like an iron fist in a velvet glove.
Marc:Right, but then she was also informed by a certain amount of activism.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just met the guy who I talked to a guy on the airplane.
Marc:who was involved with finally getting Amazing Grace into the movies.
Marc:Like, you know, that thing had been sitting around forever.
Guest:And I don't think people realize that the sound was a mess.
Marc:Yeah, because they just shot it like a regular movie.
Marc:There was no sound mix.
Marc:Sidney Pollack shot it, and it was sitting in a vault for years.
Guest:She didn't want it to come out, I don't think.
Marc:She didn't?
Guest:I don't think she did.
Marc:It's kind of amazing.
Guest:It's brilliant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Brilliant.
Guest:And really interesting to watch her.
Marc:Because she's at the end of her rope.
Yeah.
Guest:It's really interesting to watch the relationships that are happening in the room, like when her father comes in.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And what that does to her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like it shuts her down.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:And how she is with the pastor.
Marc:But he was like essential.
Guest:He was, yeah.
Marc:Because he was like, you know, almost like a comedian hosting the thing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And he knew exactly what was going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because he'd known her for his whole life.
Guest:It felt like he was sort of like North Star.
Guest:As long as he was around, she'd be all right.
Marc:Yeah, she'd land it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it was crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I watched Harriet, yeah, last night.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm like, I better get up to speed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I can't imagine that role.
Marc:You know, what I was thinking about, because I know that you got some flack for it.
Marc:And it's like, I think about that kind of flack in general.
Marc:Like, why is this person playing this for whatever reason?
Marc:Because we're the real people, whatever it is, Americans.
Marc:But in reality, you know, I saw your statement on it, is that your experience is a black experience, which is universal, really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But aside from that, Harriet Tubman probably was in fairly close proximity to actual Africans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think she was maybe twice with them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They were around still.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, there's an earnestness to you doing it.
Guest:And also, I would never have done it if I didn't think I could, like, do her justice and if I didn't.
Guest:care yeah you know yeah well yeah i really like put myself through it on that one yeah i could tell and how could you not yeah with the vulnerability of just wandering around with you know your clothes all ripped up yeah and your hair all out it was it was hard it was really hard even on set huh we would like it was we would we were filming in the like elements we were outside yeah all the time yeah and it was cold because we're shooting in virginia in the middle of like the winter yeah
Guest:And I made a point with the director, with Casey, who I love, to just be like, whatever needs to be done to make this make sense, to make it happen, we do it.
Guest:So if it means we have to shoot this in the pouring rain...
Guest:In the cold and I have a ripped up dress on me, then that's what we're going to do.
Guest:If it means I have to literally wade in the water, walk in the water up to my neck in a dress.
Guest:And then that's what I'm going to do.
Guest:Don't put a wetsuit on me because I know it actually makes it colder and she wouldn't have had a wetsuit on.
Guest:So that's what we're going to do.
Guest:So, you know, it was just and I, you know, because I don't have I think there was one stunt that I wasn't allowed to do.
Guest:And that was jump off a bridge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jump off the bridge into raging waters.
Marc:You're ready to go, though.
Guest:But yeah, everything else, that was me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Everything else is me.
Marc:There's no like... And did you get sick?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think I was...
Marc:slightly depressed by the end of it all yeah i really didn't know how to like um let go of it i didn't know how to let go of her but also let go of living in even though it's a movie yeah but living in you know a a the reality of of how people were treated of slavery yeah
Marc:I mean, I talked to Lupita Nyong'o about, you know, 12 Years a Slave, not specifically, but, you know, just watching those scenes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And seeing the sort of like the entitlement of the people that bought into the system, the white people, as it not like the fact that there was a cutoff at all.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Between what humanity is and isn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's like it's brain bending.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And sadly, you see it now in the political world.
Guest:But that's the thing.
Guest:You say it's brain bending in the other direction.
Guest:It is brain bending for full stop.
Guest:You have to bend your brain to make yourself believe that there is a cut off on humanity.
Guest:You actually have to do that first.
Guest:You have to believe these people are more human.
Guest:And these are less human.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Which is insane.
Guest:It's insane.
Guest:And horrible and has happened over and over again.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In the history of humans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're sort of watching it happen.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Again.
Guest:And it's.
Marc:Just the brain fuckery that has to happen.
Marc:Well, now people are so disconnected, you can just deliver the brain fuckery right to their phone.
Marc:So they can just sit there and, you know, their phones are rewiring brains.
Marc:I mean, racism is one thing, but expanding it into a belief system that shouldn't exist anymore is fucking crazy.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:But did you grow up with much of that?
Guest:Racism?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I live in England.
Guest:They're the best at it.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Well, they invented it in the modern world.
Guest:You know, I think the UK has tried its best to rectify some of it.
Guest:But because of where we are, some of it is rewinding itself.
Guest:We just had all those horrible, horrible riots.
Guest:And people...
Guest:We're calling for people to go home and just the worst side of humanity rearing its head.
Guest:But I think the thing that gave me hope watching things like that happen is that parts of society that...
Guest:let's say 50 60 years ago would have joined in yeah said absolutely not right absolutely not that's not what we're not doing that we don't do that here that is not what we want yeah we don't want it take it back that's not we we're not this is not we're not going back to that right so that i think i was really that made me really proud to to watch um
Guest:And, you know, we were fast becoming that way with our government as well.
Guest:And that was a big rewind too.
Guest:We've gone back to labor, which has work to do.
Guest:They all have work to do, but you just want it to be manageable.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We can actually still move forward.
Marc:And it's interesting because, you know, the difference between –
Marc:The racism, it's all racism, and I've had conversations about it before, but the difference between colonialism and slavery is, and I'm just thinking about it now, one brought hostages, kidnapped people, and the other one, they just took over.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But the attitude's still the same, and the oppressor is still the same.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One is quieter than the other, I think.
Guest:One is better at it.
Marc:Right, because it's happening over there.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So did your mother grow up in Africa?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She came to London, I think, when she was like 24 or something.
Marc:What part of Africa?
Guest:Nigeria.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you ever been?
Guest:I've been.
Guest:The last time I went, I turned 13 on the plane back.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You have family there?
Guest:I do, but a lot of my family have passed.
Guest:My grandmother died just recently, and I have a couple of aunties who are still there.
Marc:I have no sense of Africa.
Guest:When I talk to people from Africa, I'm always like, well, what's Africa?
Guest:It's all different.
Guest:The different places are so, so different.
Marc:That's why being in America and someone goes, how's Alabama?
Marc:I'm like, I've been there twice.
Marc:Yeah, I've been there.
Marc:Not great.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I also wish I had a better sense of the grander space that is Africa because I've only been to Ghana, Nigeria, Morocco, and Egypt.
Guest:And I really want to go to South Africa because I have a couple of friends who live there and I haven't been yet.
Marc:Since things are different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ish.
Guest:Ish.
Guest:And there's just places I want to go.
Guest:Like I want to.
Guest:Both your parents from there?
Guest:Both my parents are from Nigeria.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And were you.
Marc:Was there like culturally when you're growing up, were there things that you that existed in your household that were specifically from your mother's sort of.
Guest:coming from there oh yeah I mean like things like food the way we eat like the food that we have it's different from the food you get in London but what's really interesting is because of the way London has sort of like developed there's loads of places to get the things that we know of that you need that we need yeah or we want like that kind of thing like what
Guest:So, like, there's a particular meal that I love.
Guest:It's called okra soup.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But it's interesting, again, the way the diaspora sort of, like, tricks us into thinking that we're really, really different.
Guest:But if I go to New Orleans and get gumbo, it's very similar to okra soup.
Guest:It all comes from the same place.
Guest:It's like music.
Guest:It's like mofongo, which is Puerto Rican with plantain.
Guest:And we have, you know, yam porridge, which we mix with.
Guest:It's the same.
Guest:It's exactly the same.
Marc:It's so weird because I just talked to Joe Boyd, who is a music producer and kind of a brilliant guy.
Marc:He just wrote this huge book.
Marc:called The Rhythm... It's literally a meditation on the roots of music.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And as you're saying what you're saying, it's similar to food.
Marc:I mean, all this stuff, like, you know, it's all... All connected.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Already connected.
Marc:How do you, like, how do you begin...
Marc:Getting into music.
Marc:But before that, how many brothers and sisters are you guys?
Guest:I've got one sister.
Marc:What'd she do?
Guest:Her sort of speciality is sports sciences.
Guest:So she really wants to do restorative health using sports, using fitness.
Guest:And she wants to sort of bring it to people who don't.
Marc:Like physical therapy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's interesting.
Guest:But preventing things like diabetes by making sure that people have the right fitness regime.
Marc:Right, yeah, like a nutritionist.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how did she get involved in that?
Marc:Did she grow up with medicine?
Guest:Yeah, my mom was a nurse.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And then she became – well, you don't have this position here, but it's called a health visitor.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And a health visitor, it's like the bit between –
Guest:um let's say kindergarten yeah and birth yeah so that bit in between where your kids are growing but they can't they're too young to go to kindergarten and they're older than just born right my mom would go would come to your house and she would check on you and your baby up to the age of three sometimes um and this is provided by the state this is provided by the nhs yeah
Marc:Yeah, no, we don't have anything like that.
Marc:And most people wouldn't be covered for it.
Guest:And this is the thing.
Guest:And it's one of the most incredible things because she gets to know mother and child.
Guest:She has the right to help administer any medication you need.
Marc:But this is for anyone who has a child?
Guest:Anyone who has a child.
Marc:They offer that service?
Guest:Yeah, this service.
Guest:Especially if the mother happens to have postpartum depression or if the mother is in danger before, if the mother might have any mental health issues, my mom will come in and make sure she'll check on them before a social worker comes in.
Guest:So she will have a relationship with this family to make sure baby and mother or child and mother, especially mothers who have children before their newborn, she's like that person
Marc:It's an amazing.
Marc:She's very good at it.
Marc:Isn't that amazing kind of like empathy and concern for others that, you know, it's so important and doesn't get the respect it deserves, you know?
Guest:Truly.
Marc:But you weren't attracted to the sciences?
Guest:No, but I was good at the sciences.
Guest:And so I felt like there was like a fluke that happened and I happened to like love performing as well.
Marc:Did you study like anything with medicine or were you going to go a different direction?
Guest:I was going to go into psychology because I was very good at like working with people.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, working through people's feelings.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And music was always my love.
Guest:And I started studying music psychology.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:So essentially it's the study of how music affects the psyche based on where you live or your social standing or what it can do.
Guest:And that's a major thing?
Guest:That was a major, yeah.
Guest:I started studying at university, and then I think I didn't feel as stimulated as I wanted to be, and I knew something was amiss.
Guest:I didn't necessarily need to go to the lectures to pass an essay.
Marc:So the levels are like community, psychology, spirituality within countries, villages, towns, cities, that kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah, that kind of thing, yeah.
Marc:How it keeps me together, how it breaks people apart.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I talked a little bit about this with that guy who wrote that book.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How music evolves.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that was what I was really interested in.
Guest:You know, right down to the semantics of note pattern, chord structure, how that changes a person's mood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the major minor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What difference that makes in the sound of music and how you receive it.
Marc:And also it's interesting, I guess, if you turn that around to kind of think about the type of person that likes a certain thing.
Marc:A certain thing.
Guest:And that can lead you into... So you start talking about classical music and what that means within social standing and elitism and things like that.
Marc:Or just people that like sad music.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Because it makes them feel better.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:How does that affect the brain?
Marc:You're going to have to tell them they're sad.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You're probably...
Marc:You're going to have to stop listening to this for a little while.
Guest:Stop listening to that.
Marc:So how did you decide to shift?
Guest:Whilst I was going to the university to do all of this, I did a youth program for acting just because I still wanted to do it.
Guest:It was a theater around my area.
Marc:But you always sang?
Guest:I always sang, yeah.
Guest:I've been singing since I was five.
Marc:Like in the Catholic school?
Guest:Yeah, in the Catholic school as well.
Marc:What kind of Catholic?
Guest:We went to a place called Lara Trait.
Guest:It was a Roman Catholic school.
Guest:Do you hold on to Catholicism?
Guest:Probably not as much now.
Guest:I think it's a little strict for me, and it's slightly problematic in places.
Marc:Yeah, I'll say.
Guest:You know, so I hold my faith to be true.
Guest:Like, I do believe in God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't know if the way—I think the way I believe is slightly different to the way—
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To the way a Catholic might believe.
Marc:Yeah, Catholic's pretty heavy.
Guest:Yeah, it's heavy.
Marc:Lots of guilt.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Well, there's lots of guilt, but like, you know, I grew up Jewish, but I'm not that religious.
Marc:And, you know, but like I never, until I visited Italy.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I was like, man, this is, it's like bordering on witchcraft.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Every church you go into, there's like 100 dead wizards everywhere.
Marc:It's like, how many popes were there?
Marc:What is with these body parts?
Marc:It is a lot.
Marc:It's intense.
Marc:It's intense.
Marc:And like those churches were built to just brain fuck the peasants.
Marc:It's intense.
Marc:You walk in, you're like, what?
Guest:My mom wasn't Roman Catholic.
Guest:My mom, she's Anglican, which I loved.
Guest:When we went to her church, it was really like—
Marc:Is that the British church?
Marc:Yeah, it's so much more relaxed.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was so much more relaxed, so much more fun.
Marc:You have the big robes and the smoking orbs.
Guest:It wasn't really any of that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The sort of like the ceremonies, the services weren't as long and they were just so much more open.
Marc:I loved that.
Marc:Did you grow up with a hell?
Guest:Yeah, I think we—well, my mom never really, like, mentioned hell ever enough.
Marc:Leaned into the hell?
Marc:No.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:And I think that's because she was Anglican.
Guest:So they don't really talk about the hell too much.
Guest:It's more a Roman Catholic thing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you sort of evolved into your own sense of faith.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you always sang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I always sang, and I think that's probably why I've held on to that sense of faith, because I know there's a weird sense of connection and—
Guest:It's hard to describe what it is when I sing to people.
Marc:Singing to me is the most vulnerable of things.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And I just know that from a personal experience because I was so terrified of it.
Marc:I've overcome that in the last five years to sing publicly.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But to me, it's sort of like...
Marc:I don't even know why it's so loaded, but the risk of not being received singing is just terrifying.
Guest:You have to be open when you do it.
Guest:Literally, you're as open as you possibly can be to anyone who's around when you're singing.
Guest:Because who knows?
Guest:You don't know how they'll receive your voice.
Guest:There are waves, sound waves literally coming out of you that you have to mold and shape.
Guest:So your body and your brain and your mind and your vocal cords are doing something that have to work in complete harmony.
Guest:And sometimes they might not work in harmony, so you don't know when that will happen.
Guest:You kind of have to just go with... It doesn't matter how much practice or how good you are.
Guest:There are days when it just won't work as well as you want it to work.
Guest:And you have to sort of be like, well...
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:If that happens, that happens.
Marc:You got to take the risk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you add on to it.
Guest:If you're singing something that means something to you that you know is really emotionally connected, you're giving that piece of yourself to other people and you hope that they'll accept it.
Uh-huh.
Guest:And you don't know if they will.
Guest:But there's two things.
Guest:You got to detach from them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But if they do, that's also really vulnerable.
Guest:Because you're like, oh, I don't know how you're connecting to it.
Marc:But you can feel it.
Guest:I can feel it.
Marc:And then you have to try not to cry.
Guest:And that sometimes is impossible.
Marc:It is, right?
Marc:So it's weird because, you know, in that weird movie, Bad Times at the El Rio, you actually go through that.
Marc:As a singer, you can see everything you were just talking about.
Marc:The vulnerability of not knowing you're being watched and then working on it.
Marc:And then when you cross over, you know, post, you know, not dying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Then you fully realize your voice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's all in that movie, of all the movies.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Isn't it crazy?
Marc:But it's, like, literally explored like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The other ones, you're just, like, you're singing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it's interesting that, you know, when people make assumptions about musical actors.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The assumption is that, like, well, now they've got to learn how to act.
Marc:And it's like people don't realize that when you're a musical actor.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You have to do two things.
Guest:You have to do two things at the same time.
Marc:Like you're acting almost harder and more intensely than anything is going to be like in a one-on-one thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's because it's got to be huge but also intimate.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was insane.
Guest:So right out of Color Purple, I did Widows with Steve McQueen.
Guest:Then I did Bad Times.
Guest:And then I did...
Guest:Harriet.
Marc:So it was insane.
Marc:Nice range, though.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so where did you study the acting?
Marc:You studied at the big place, right?
Guest:At the big place, Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you got in, were you like, what?
Guest:Yeah, because I didn't audition for anywhere else.
Guest:And I didn't, that wasn't the intention.
Guest:The intention at the beginning was not to go to drama school because I just didn't know that I really even had the chance to do that.
Guest:To act.
Guest:Yeah, no one – You knew you could sing.
Guest:I knew I could sing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But no one had said to me, hey, there are these places you can go to to act, to hone your skill.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You can do that.
Guest:And nobody said it to me until I did this youth acting program at the theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's where I bumped into –
Guest:a really cool woman who ended up being like a mentor for a while.
Guest:Her name is Ray McKen and she had run a young acting company at the Young Vic like five years before this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where we did like a version of Romeo and Juliet and I play Juliet.
Guest:And I didn't see her until that day when I was about to go and do the young actors company at the theater.
Guest:And I met her at the – it was at a theater.
Guest:And I met her at the foyer at the ticket office.
Guest:And she was like, oh.
Guest:You're doing this.
Guest:I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to do this.
Guest:And she was like, well, I'm running it.
Guest:I can't believe it.
Guest:This is amazing.
Guest:She goes, yeah, you can't come unless you're going to go to drama school.
Guest:I think you should train.
Guest:I said, what do you mean train?
Guest:What do you mean train?
Guest:She said, well, you should go to drama school.
Guest:What do you mean drama?
Guest:What?
Marc:He had no sense.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Marc:He really had no sense.
Guest:No idea.
Guest:Yeah, I think you should go to drama school.
Guest:I think you should go to this place called the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.
Guest:She called it RADA first.
Guest:I was like, what the heck is RADA?
Guest:She goes, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.
Guest:No, I'm not going.
Guest:She said, why?
Guest:Because I'm not going to get in.
Guest:Why would I go to the – it's literally called the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.
Guest:I'm not going to a place that is called that.
Guest:I'm not going to get in.
Guest:There's no way.
Guest:She said, you should apply, and I think you have a chance of getting in.
Guest:I was like, I'm not, I'm not going.
Guest:That's that.
Guest:She said, okay, fine.
Guest:Then you can't come and do this.
Guest:You can't do this actors company.
Guest:She called you on it.
Guest:She called me on it.
Guest:She wouldn't let me go to this thing unless I applied for the school.
Guest:And what was the audition?
Yeah.
Guest:When I went, it was four rounds of audition.
Guest:The first round you went, you prepared two speeches from two different shows, one Shakespeare, one modern.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And I did a piece from A Winter's Tale.
Guest:The character's called Hermione.
Guest:And then a piece from a play called The Colored Museum.
Marc:Did she coach you?
Guest:She did.
Guest:She coached me.
Yeah.
Guest:I did that.
Guest:It worked, to my surprise.
Guest:I got through to the second round.
Marc:And you got to do two different ones?
Guest:No, you do.
Guest:Well, you now prepare a third just in case.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you prepare an unaccompanied song.
Marc:So you knew you were going to nail that.
Guest:Well, yeah, but I was also like, what do I do that just feels like cool and different and I can like emote and like tell stories through?
Guest:What'd you do?
Guest:She was like, well, you can do, why don't we try a fine line from Avenue Q?
Guest:So we did, there's a fine line from Avenue Q. And I think I redid...
Guest:The speech by Hermione.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the third round, they put you into groups where you have to prepare a speech.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this time you have to prepare the third speech.
Guest:So I did Amelia from Othello.
Guest:I think it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Amelia from Othello.
Guest:And then they sort of watch you in groups.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And see how you are with groups, see how you work with people.
Guest:And in the fourth round, those people who get through to the fourth round...
Guest:do their speech in front of the faculty and the rest of the auditionees.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And the day I did my speech in front of everyone, there was another girl, I remember her name was Naomi, who had the same speech as me.
Guest:And when she went up, she froze.
Guest:And she had the same speech.
Guest:And so I fed her the lines.
Guest:So we were sort of back and forth for a little bit, feeding the line.
Marc:Until she got on.
Marc:Until she was fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:And we both got in.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She didn't get in.
Guest:I was so happy to see her.
Guest:I was the one person I was like, oh, my goodness, I hope she gets in.
Guest:Please let her get in.
Guest:Because that's a good moment for both of us here.
Guest:That was a good moment for her, too.
Marc:Did you, like, was it one of those moments where, like, everyone in the room was like, uh-oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you just spoke up?
Marc:Yeah, just gave her the line.
Guest:Why wouldn't I?
Guest:We had the same speech.
Guest:I would have looked crazy if I didn't.
Guest:Or just competitive.
Guest:I would have felt crazy, yeah.
Guest:I wasn't going to let her freeze out there.
Guest:No.
Guest:That was good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was such a good moment.
Guest:It was also so, like, felt good to just be like, ooh, this is what it could be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You take the line.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:It was just like, yeah.
Marc:How are you with Shakespeare in general?
Guest:I love Shakespeare.
Guest:I haven't had the chance to do it on film or on stage.
Guest:And that's what I studied.
Guest:So I would love the opportunity to do it at some point.
Marc:I think you'll get it.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I'd love to.
Marc:So after Radha, you just start doing the musicals.
Guest:I just start doing plays and musicals.
Guest:The first thing I did out of Radha was like a little play with music in it because it wasn't really a musical.
Guest:It just like was a play.
Guest:Was it Willie Nelson that wrote the music?
Marc:Maybe.
Guest:I think it was Willie Nelson that wrote the music.
Marc:Those are pretty songs.
Guest:Yeah, they were pretty songs.
Marc:And so when you did, what was the first big theater musical?
Guest:Umbrellas of Cherbourg.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:In a West End theatre.
Guest:That didn't last for very long, but it was fun to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was the reason I got my next thing, which was like a big old UK tour of Sister Act.
Marc:That must have been fun.
Guest:It was crazy and fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And wild.
Guest:We were exhausted all the time.
Guest:Lots of music to sing.
Guest:Lots of things to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was crazy.
Guest:Those UK tours are so interesting because you...
Guest:You don't really know what you're walking into until you walk into the theater.
Guest:And you don't really know what you're walking into until you walk into wherever you've decided to stay.
Guest:Because the pictures that they give you about where you're supposed to stay never match where you're staying.
Guest:And sometimes you look out and they really do match.
Guest:Other times, they really don't.
Guest:And you're stuck.
Marc:And you're like, I'm... For what, a month?
Marc:It's bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it can be bad.
Marc:But by the time you get the color purple, I imagine you're staying at nice places.
Guest:Yeah, well, by the time we got to Colour Purple, I was back in London.
Guest:Because the first time I did the Colour Purple, we did a little stint of it at the Menier Chocolate Factory in London.
Guest:And I was at home again, which is fine.
Guest:And obviously when we came to Broadway, it was lovely.
Marc:So the part of Sealy, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hard.
Marc:Hard.
Marc:Man, I interviewed the guy who directed the movie.
Guest:Yeah, Blitz.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good guy.
Marc:And I liked that movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I thought they did a good job.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:I thought they did a good job, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I went to a screening for, you know, friends and family and so much of the cast from the original production on Broadway was aired.
Marc:It was so overwhelming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't get that invite.
Marc:Oh, I'm sorry.
Marc:That's all right.
Marc:It feels like there's a little tension.
Guest:Well, I don't know why, though.
Marc:No, I don't either.
Marc:Were you up for the part?
Guest:That's a long, complicated conversation that I probably shouldn't even get into.
Marc:Well, there's your answer.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lord knows why.
Guest:But, you know.
Marc:But to do that part at all.
Marc:Yeah, it's hard.
Marc:That's weight.
Marc:I mean, that is, you know, and that I imagine on some level, you know, prepared you for all of that.
Marc:But it certainly prepared you for Harriet.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just was like a—it's one of those roles.
Guest:And because, you know, it's eight shows a week.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I think we did over 400 shows.
Guest:It ran for 14 months.
Marc:Yeah, so you knew it.
Guest:I knew it, like the back of my hand.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And, yeah, I just—I remember I said to someone—
Guest:After like Time 400 or something, you get called ugly on stage.
Guest:The line stops, the line between you and reality and the character.
Guest:I mean, before Time 400, before Show 400, the line's already kind of gone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because your body starts to do whatever it needs to to get to where it needs to faster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you stop...
Guest:It becomes really thin.
Guest:The veil becomes really, really, really thin.
Guest:And so it stops being the characters being called this, and it starts being you are.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And you start feeling it.
Guest:You start believing it.
Guest:And it's really hard every day to do that, you know?
Marc:So, like, they're...
Marc:In some ways, sadly, I guess, a type of honesty starts to happen.
Marc:Yeah, really.
Marc:That is too taxing.
Guest:It happens early.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because if you're lucky enough to run for six months, that's a good run.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we ran for 14.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So for me, and because I really try to be as honest as I can, whatever I'm doing, because I want to believe myself as well.
Guest:I want the watcher to believe and I want them to connect.
Guest:I think the only way a person can connect is if it's coming from an honest place.
Marc:Yeah, if you want it to be a real connection.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So to be able to sing I'm here and to get to a place where you can say I'm beautiful, you have to believe to some degree that that isn't the truth until you believe it.
Guest:You have to make yourself believe it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For me doing that show, after like four months, everything started to wear away.
Guest:So you're sort of like, I'm just being as honest as I can.
Guest:I'm not myself, but I am funneling all of my things.
Marc:You're feeling it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In a personal way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you don't have control over it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had a complete like breakdown one night on stage.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Total breakdown.
Marc:And like everyone, it was tangible?
Guest:It was very tangible.
Guest:I was lucky because Isaiah, who was playing Mr. at that point, noticed immediately and just stared into my eyes and like mouthed, I'm right here.
Guest:I'm here.
Guest:You were okay.
Marc:What were you feeling?
Guest:I don't even know.
Guest:It was just like the strangest experience of just like...
Guest:I was like, not even where am I, but like the hurt, any hurt that I was feeling as this character cut through me as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Deeply.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I couldn't get words out.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:And it wasn't, I hadn't forgotten the words.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just couldn't say them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just couldn't find, I didn't have the, my voice had gone.
Marc:So maybe it was,
Marc:like you as you wouldn't be able to do it.
Guest:That.
Guest:It was so insane.
Guest:It was like, you know when, let's say if you're just like playing something and all of a sudden someone ripped the character out from underneath you and you're on stage.
Guest:It was like I realized I was on stage at that point.
Guest:And I realized that I was saying these words.
Guest:And like I was there.
Guest:Cynthia was there.
Marc:Unprotected.
Guest:Unprotected.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there was no coverage.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was like...
Marc:And so he, like, he pulled you back in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you got back on?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:The wildest, most horrid, most, I guess, opening experience I've ever had.
Marc:It was opening?
Guest:Yeah, because it meant that...
Marc:Oh, not opening night, just for you as a person?
Guest:No, just for me as a person, because it was like, oh, you are telling the truth, which is good.
Marc:Sometimes when you think about acting, you think it's acting.
Marc:Yeah, but— But in order—you've got to put yourself out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To get to the truth of the scene.
Marc:I mean, you can get away with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But it's the difference.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, if you're going to show that vulnerability, you don't know how it's going to be received.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:And I think if you're self-conscious, you're like, well, why even make that an option?
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, it's not about money.
Marc:It's not about, you know, putting on a show.
Marc:It's about, you know, seeking the truth in the moment of that scene or in that story.
Marc:I mean, once you do that once, you're like, you can't go back.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:You just want to keep building.
Guest:You want to keep finding that place.
Marc:Yeah, on the spectrum of that anyways, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you do something like—because I saw Wicked.
Marc:I went to a screening with a bunch of people.
Marc:I don't know the show.
Marc:No, that's fine.
Marc:I like musicals, but I don't seek them out.
Marc:But every time I go, I'm crying.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's quite a spectacle.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And, again, I have to assume that, you know, it's lighter in the sense of, like, you know, you're green, not black.
Marc:But you're still – all of it's informed by some more stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:So had you done that show on stage?
Marc:I had not, no.
Marc:And what was your experience with doing it?
Marc:Did you love the show?
Guest:I did love the show, actually.
Guest:I really loved the show.
Guest:And I think I connected with the idea that someone who was different could be ostracized because of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so when I was asked to do it, when I finally was told that I could, a part of me was like, you want to make sure that you're paying homage to the thing that exists already.
Guest:But also, I really wanted to be able to inform it with my experience.
Guest:Because I do live in the skin.
Guest:And I know what it's like to be the only person in the room who looks like this.
Guest:And I know what it is like to have people be like...
Guest:Okay, you know, that kind of thing.
Guest:So I wanted to make sure that that could be funneled through this particular character.
Guest:And the experience was like, it was tough sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In what way?
Marc:For you or just in terms of the director?
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:John is incredible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:John was incredible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But for this particular character's journey, it's hard.
Guest:She has to figure some stuff out on her own.
Guest:She has to... Quickly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she experiences a lot of loneliness, a lot of ostracization, if that's a word.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then has to...
Guest:figure out how to accept herself and then accept the things that other people won't.
Guest:She finds these relationships that I don't think she even expects to have.
Marc:Well, it's fortunate that you're magic.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But even that comes at a price for her.
Guest:For her, it's like...
Guest:Her magic doesn't really expand until she allows herself to be the thing that people don't want her to be.
Marc:But I don't know the show.
Marc:How much was different?
Marc:Because it seems to be informed in a lot of ways.
Marc:with politics to a certain degree.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that comes from the book.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Gregory Maguire wrote a book that was actually very political.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's probably what is coming through in the book.
Guest:The musical has a small amount, but not as much as the movie, I think.
Guest:But that's because we have the space now to combine both the beauty of the stage and the book.
Guest:And I think that is actually what allows us to tell a fuller story.
Guest:And I think that's why it feels quite political, because that's how he wrote it, really.
Marc:It's political in the sense, not to alienate anybody, but it's political in the sense of just the fundamentals of... I guess you would call it... It's not quite fascism, but it's how...
Marc:People in power lock into creating victims for the sake of building a mass ideology to maintain power.
Marc:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's with the talking animals.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're the champion of the talking animals.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that becomes – because I would never – having not ever seen the show, I'm like, oh, so the witch was good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:She wasn't always horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like what forces a person into being in the way they are.
Guest:And I thought it was— The two things are being discussed at the same time, like turning a person or creating a villain or creating a common enemy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what pushes that person into that space in the first place?
Guest:Like at some point she accepts that, her role.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was totally engaged, and I can't believe there's another one.
Marc:I did get to the point where I'm like, you know, like they're not even going to finish it.
Marc:We will.
Marc:We got a second one.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I was here the whole time.
Marc:Now I got to wait?
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:You wanted the second one straight away.
Marc:Well, I would have maybe ate something, taken a breather.
Marc:Yeah, I want to... I love that.
Marc:I want the rest of the story.
Guest:It's coming.
Guest:You'll be so surprised about how fast another year will go.
Marc:Did you shoot it already?
Marc:Yeah, it's shot.
Marc:Oh, it's all done.
Marc:It's ready.
Guest:Well, it's not ready, but it's shot.
Marc:But you did it all at once in the same... Yeah, we did it all at once.
Guest:Insane.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How long did you shoot that?
Marc:Like over a year?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we started rehearsals in August 2022.
Guest:We started shooting December 2022.
Guest:We finished.
Guest:Well, we went until June or July 23.
Guest:We went on strike.
Guest:Everyone went on strike.
Guest:So we had to wait a while.
Guest:And we came back top of this year and finished in February.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:It's been some time.
Marc:And people love that show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So they're going to come out and see it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I'm really proud of it.
Marc:But how did you and Ariana get along?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love her.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:She's a good egg.
Marc:Great performer, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, she's so good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, she really does that thing really well.
Guest:She's like a little Lucille Ball.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's phenomenal.
Guest:I'm really, really proud of her, actually.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I was surprised and excited.
Marc:And, you know, it had enough stuff in there.
Marc:Like, and I guess it was always the nature of the musical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because with a musical, it really has to appeal to, like, all ages.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And there is enough there for everybody.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like, there's definitely stuff in there that kids aren't going to quite get.
Guest:Yes, correct.
Marc:It's so weird when you really look at that, like, not just the musicals you've done, but almost all these great musicals, it's like, there's some dark shit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I like depth.
Marc:Yeah, it's definitely there.
Marc:Well, great job.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And it was nice talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Guest:You too.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I enjoyed that conversation.
Marc:Talented person.
Marc:Wicked is in theaters this Friday.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:People, five years ago today, we posted my conversation with another Broadway star, Nathan Lane.
Marc:It's episode 1072.
Marc:And yes, Nathan, it was a great talk.
Guest:I did a lot of research before this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, and I'm familiar with your stand-up.
Guest:I'm a fan of your stand-up.
Guest:Oh, you did research on me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:What'd you come up with?
Guest:So here's what I saw.
Guest:Are we recording yet?
Guest:Sure.
Sure.
Guest:We've been recording, yes.
Guest:And I noticed on your Twitter account.
Guest:I'm not doing that a lot.
Guest:But you have a picture of your guests.
Guest:Yes, I do that, yeah.
Guest:on who they are, what they've done.
Guest:And then at the end, it says, good talk.
Guest:Good talk.
Guest:But in some, it says great talk.
Guest:And I thought, now he's given some thought to that.
Guest:And so I thought, because I'm emotionally fragile, I'll be looking.
Guest:I'll be looking to see if I got good talk or great talk.
Guest:Now, if you gave me a great fucking talk, I would be thrilled.
Guest:I could get by for the next week.
Marc:No one has ever called me on that, but you're right in assuming that there is.
Guest:You know, Danny DeVito got a great talk.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Woody Harrelson, good talk.
Guest:Good, good.
Guest:Didn't change my life.
Guest:I never cried, but it was good.
Guest:I can tell you.
Guest:It was nice.
Guest:No, it was good.
Guest:It was good.
Marc:Again, a great talk with Nathan Lane on episode 1072.
Marc:And you can listen to that for free right now, wherever you are listening to this episode.
Marc:If you want all WTF episodes ad-free, sign up for WTF Plus.
Marc:Go to the link in the episode description to subscribe or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Here's some looped thing I did.
Marc:All right.
All right.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives, monkey and the fond of cat angels everywhere.