Episode 1585 - Keith Urban
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i talked to you about um
Marc:A bit about some breakthrough I had last time I talked to you.
Marc:And I think I can give you more details.
Marc:But first, I will say this.
Marc:Keith Urban is on the show today.
Marc:Keith Urban, Grammy-winning country singer and songwriter.
Marc:He was a judge on American Idol as well as the Australian version of The Voice.
Marc:He's got a new album out.
Marc:It's his 11th studio album.
Marc:famously married to Nicole Kidman.
Marc:I met him briefly when I did, during COVID, I interviewed Nicole and he was setting up her computer.
Marc:So we had a, hey, that was just Keith Urban.
Marc:I'll be honest with you, I didn't know a lot about him going in, but I did do the listening when I interview a musical act.
Marc:I'll do the listening, figured out where he started, where he went.
Marc:And I'll be honest with you, and this isn't really necessarily a bad thing,
Marc:But in a way, Keith Urban has been with me in spirit since the day he did the interview.
Marc:I'll explain to you why.
Marc:Look, I am no one to judge anybody for wearing particular...
Marc:Scents that make them feel good.
Marc:Who am I to fucking judge?
Marc:I've been wearing patchouli for at least 35 years from the same place.
Marc:Mind you, I've been buying my patchouli at life in San Francisco on lower hate for 35 years for a long time.
Marc:But Keith came in here with his smell.
Marc:Don't know what it was.
Marc:It was specific.
Marc:But I guess our smells fought it out.
Marc:His particular scent definitely won because I can still smell it.
Marc:And again, not a negative thing, but it's here.
Marc:And I don't know...
Marc:when it's going to go away.
Marc:It's not a bad smell, but I mean, after a certain point, you know, I interview a guy and, uh, you know, I kind of move on with my life, but I have been unable to completely move on from Keith urban again, not making a judgment.
Marc:I wear patchouli, but, uh, in a way in spirit, uh,
Marc:Or at the very least, in smell, Keith has been with me.
Marc:Again, not bad.
Marc:Not saying anything bad about Keith.
Marc:I'm just stating a fact.
Marc:It's what's happening.
Marc:And I imagine it'll pass.
Marc:Maybe after I post this episode, the scent he was wearing will leave.
Marc:Maybe it's been waiting for this.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:This Saturday, October 26th, I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter here in Los Angeles.
Marc:The rest of my tour dates are scheduled for the next year.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to see all of them.
Marc:So look, I'll tell you what happened.
Marc:Now that, you know, the cat's out of the bag in some ways.
Marc:The cast of the movie I'm doing in memoriam is kind of growing.
Marc:And publicly, it was just announced that Sharon Stone and Lily Gladstone are on board.
Marc:But the breakthrough I was talking about that happened was with Sharon.
Marc:Now, I've interviewed Sharon Stone here on the show years ago.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:Anytime you hang out at all for any amount of time with Sharon Stone, you're like, holy fuck, this person's an electric person.
Marc:She's an electric person, an inspired electric person.
Marc:And if you know her work, you're like, she's a fucking great actress, one of the best fucking movie star.
Marc:So she's in the movie.
Marc:And I got this big scene with her.
Marc:Now, in this scene, and I've known this for months, before I knew Sharon Stone was going to be in it, it calls for crying.
Marc:And I was fucking nervous about it.
Marc:There's like two or three scenes in this movie.
Marc:I'm not going to tell you the scenes.
Marc:I'm not going to spoil the movie or really give you the story.
Marc:But there's a few scenes in this movie that require a level of acting that I just didn't have confidence in myself to be able to do.
Marc:But I wanted to rise to the challenge.
Marc:But I was hung up on this crying business, even though I know I know in a lot of movies they just spray some menthol or smear some menthol under their eyes and you can have the tears there.
Marc:But do you have the emotions behind it?
Marc:And look, I'm learning a lot about this thing now because I'm having to do all these different types of acting in this movie.
Marc:And because of the conversations I've had here in this story, primarily my recent talk with Al Pacino and earlier talk that I had with Ethan Hawke played a good part in me kind of figuring out how to do what I had to do.
Marc:But I still going into this scene.
Marc:which was multi-leveled and long, I knew that Sharon and I had to get to crying.
Marc:And I, look, I assume she could do it, obviously.
Marc:She's fucking Sharon Stone.
Marc:but I was wary and, and, you know, we enter the scene and it's just her and I, and there was a lot going on between us in this scene.
Marc:And we shoot a couple of them.
Marc:We shoot a couple of takes and I'm like, I am, I am just, I am disappearing into me.
Marc:I'm falling into the hole of Mark.
Marc:I'm looking at Sharon Stone.
Marc:We're running the scene.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm, I am, I, I, I was, I was crumbling folks.
Marc:crumbling i didn't let on but you kind of know when you're doing a job of any kind and you're working with somebody who's really fucking good at that job uh you kind of you know when you're you're you're you're part of the job is not quite up to snuff
Marc:So I have a meltdown in my trailer.
Marc:Not as bad as DiCaprio did in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
Marc:No booze involved.
Marc:But it was pretty good.
Marc:You know, that's what managers are for.
Marc:To watch you pace around and yell that you can't do it.
Marc:And I was like, just completely falling apart.
Marc:I'm the lead of this movie.
Marc:You know, you get that out.
Marc:And then I'm like, dude, you got to figure it out.
Marc:You got to go back in there.
Marc:This is not Mark Maron and Sharon Stone and,
Marc:This is two people playing characters that have a relationship.
Marc:There's something you need.
Marc:There's something you are wanting in this scene.
Marc:You know what the scene is.
Marc:You know where you're at.
Marc:Figure out what your fucking character's relationship right now is with this character's relationship and act appropriately to honor that dynamic.
Marc:Figure it out.
Marc:Do not enter the scene thinking, fuck, Sharon Stone is here.
Marc:That's not the right way.
Marc:So I figured that out, man.
Marc:I did the Pacino thing.
Marc:I went to the character.
Marc:I read my post-it that just says posture on top of it with an exclamation point.
Marc:Then go to the character.
Marc:What's going on in the scene?
Marc:Where are you going?
Marc:Where do you come from?
Marc:Why are you here?
Marc:I do that, but I got to cry.
Marc:And I'm getting into a zone where I'm trying to find where is the zone where I cry?
Marc:I don't have the tools to cry on purpose.
Marc:Every tool I have is the opposite of that.
Marc:It's the opposite tool.
Marc:I'm a comedian.
Marc:How do you not cry?
Marc:How do you make crying funny with words?
Marc:That's my job.
Marc:But I got to find this place.
Marc:So I get back from lunch.
Marc:I'm confident about how our characters interact so I can sort of hold my own.
Marc:I'm thinking about Ethan Hawke.
Marc:When he told me that when he got training day, he watched Denzel Washington's, all his movies, just as almost training films.
Marc:Just so he wouldn't get eaten alive.
Marc:I didn't have time for that.
Marc:But what it meant to me was like, ground yourself in you, dude.
Marc:All you got is you, so live in it fully.
Marc:So we're doing this scene and we do, you know, a couple of, we do like one take of it.
Marc:And I'm like, look, I said to Sharon, you know, it's going okay.
Marc:We're still in like a master shot, you know, they're coming in.
Marc:I'm like, you know, I don't think I can cry.
Marc:I don't think I can do it.
Marc:So I got it.
Marc:I'm going to have to put that stuff in.
Marc:You know, I said to her and she said, she knows an actor that puts onions in their pocket and then just rubs their eyes before.
Marc:And I'm like, I'm not doing that, but they got the stuff.
Yeah.
Marc:And, but I was, I felt like it was a failure.
Marc:I felt like, you know, dude, if you want to fucking act and you want to connect and you want this to be honest and you want this, this moment in this story to be honest, you know, you should be able to cry.
Marc:I felt like I was just throwing the towel in.
Marc:I said, right.
Marc:You know, I said, I'm going to get the stuff.
Marc:She goes, you can cry.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think she goes, what makes you cry?
Marc:And I'm like, well, you know, it happens.
Marc:I have no control over it.
Marc:Sometimes TV commercials or a cat video, something like that.
Marc:You know, there's some stuff.
Marc:And the whole time I'm in my character, you know, before the scene and on the breaks of the scene, I'm thinking like, get into a zone, man, get into a place where you can find this emotion.
Marc:And I just wasn't finding it.
Marc:I was in the right area, but I didn't know how to get it out.
Marc:And she goes, she says to me, she looks me in the eyes.
Marc:There's a point in the scene where she grabs my face.
Marc:And she says, I know what makes you cry.
Marc:She goes, you know what makes you cry.
Marc:And I'm like, okay.
Marc:And I'm looking right at her face.
Marc:And I go, are you talking about Lynn?
Marc:She had reached out to me after Lynn passed away, you know, and was very nice and supportive.
Marc:And I feel like I know Sharon a bit.
Marc:We're not pals.
Marc:But she knew about Lynn and she goes, and I said, Lynn?
Marc:And she goes, yeah.
Marc:And she looks me in the eyes and like, you know, we're face to face, you know, between shots.
Marc:And she says, you know, do the scene to Lynn.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:And I'd already been thinking about that.
Marc:Like, you know, in order to bring up tears, it wasn't that I was thinking about a moment with Lynn, you know, the love of my life who passed away.
Marc:But I was thinking about how much Lynn believed in my talent and wanted so much for me.
Marc:to do it and to enjoy it and to express myself with this acting thing.
Marc:And she was always so supportive.
Marc:So it was just this idea of Lynn's love and support being gone, but being there with me.
Marc:I was trying to get there before Sharon even said that.
Marc:But then I'm like, yeah, I know, I know.
Marc:She goes, look, she says this to me.
Marc:She says, you do the scene.
Marc:You know, do it, do it to Lynn.
Marc:And, you know, she'll be here.
Marc:I'll make sure she'll be here.
Marc:I'll get her here.
Marc:And I was like, what?
Marc:You know, and whatever you think about what she's telling me or whether it was a magic trick or mystical, she got me into a place where I felt like I could get to the place I needed to get to, to live in this scene with honest emotions and
Marc:you know, for the emotional crying, which becomes once you get to that place, you're in the scene and the lines are the lines and the relationship in the scene is the relationship.
Marc:I wasn't, you know, thinking about doing it to Lynn or picturing Lynn.
Marc:I was being the character with Sharon in this situation where we were both crying, sobbing, sobbing on a couple of takes.
Marc:And I've never sobbed like that, you know, in public ever.
Marc:on this show once for, for that reason.
Marc:But it wasn't about that.
Marc:It was about how do you get to the well of emotions, whatever they are, you know, and, and bring them to life within this scene for this story.
Marc:I'll make sure she's here.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:God damn, man.
Marc:Never going to be the same.
Marc:Sharon Stone was genius and took me to a place just by being there for me that I've never been before.
Marc:Opened it up.
Marc:So now I got that.
Marc:I don't know how much control I have over it.
Marc:I don't think I could do it right now.
Marc:So Keith Urban.
Marc:Keith Urban is here and he's with me here in the studio still.
Marc:in spirit, and in scent.
Marc:His new album, High, is now available wherever you get music.
Marc:And this is, we had a good time.
Marc:I didn't know where we'd go, but him and I did pretty good.
Marc:Me and Keith Urban.
Marc:So, nice to meet you.
Guest:You too, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, I think I met you briefly.
Marc:In the driveway.
Marc:Yeah, in the driveway.
Marc:Driving up in your own car.
Marc:Very respectable.
Marc:A guy who drives himself.
Marc:I'm sort of like, hey, he's a real guy.
Marc:Yeah, I don't like being driven.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:Nauseousness?
Marc:Trust?
Guest:What is the not like being... It's the love of driving.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:I love driving.
Guest:Yeah, I love cars.
Guest:I always have.
Guest:My dad loved cars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I inherited that.
Marc:Yeah, I grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:There is a thing, like, either you're a driver or you're not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, when you, like, just to, like, drive for a long time, you get into a zone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I remember I had a weird moment where I've been driving for hours, and I was listening to Iggy Pop on the—Loud—
Marc:But you get into the zone, and then I got out of the car at a gas station.
Marc:It was like I landed on another planet, you know, because Iggy was blasting, and I realized, oh, everyone's just going on with their life.
Marc:I was in this space machine.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, look, I wanted to show you this thing.
Marc:Because I thought you would like it.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:Tele Deluxe.
Guest:Look at that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:73.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:I can tell by the whole look of it and knobs.
Marc:This thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Don't you play Tele?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I've got a lot of Teles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's your... Well, the first electric I ever bought, I couldn't afford a Fender, so I got an Ibanez Fender Telecaster copy.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Ibanez.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think my first guitar was, I think the brand was actually called Copycat.
Guest:Oh, perfect.
Marc:It was a Copycat gold top.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How much was it?
Marc:Do you remember?
Marc:It was probably $100, $120, maybe.
Marc:Did you have $120?
Marc:No, I think my folks bought it for me for my birthday.
Marc:Did you have to pay them back?
Marc:Oh, no, birthday, okay.
Marc:Yeah, something like that.
Marc:But then I did buy a Telecaster that they, you know, no, my parents, I guess I was more of the spoiled ilk.
Marc:Have you got siblings?
Marc:I've got a little brother.
Marc:You?
Marc:Did you both get spoiled or just you?
Marc:Well, I mean, it wasn't massively spoiled, but they bought me a guitar.
Marc:Do you have siblings?
Marc:Yeah, just one brother.
Marc:Two years older.
Marc:What's your difference?
Marc:He's two and a half years younger than me.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:So I'm talking to my brother, basically.
Marc:Yeah, but I feel like my brother went the other way.
Marc:My brother was a sports guy.
Marc:Yeah, my brother's a sport guy.
Marc:Oh, so you didn't get the benefit of having the cool older brother with the good records?
Guest:Well, yeah, I did.
Guest:He loved music.
Guest:He wasn't a musician, but he turned me on to a lot of English bands in ELO.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Supertramp and stuff like that.
Marc:Yeah, I remember that period.
Marc:You're like a few years younger than me.
Marc:But I remember in high school when that Supertramp Breakfast in America came out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was like a huge record.
Marc:Oh, yeah, massive.
Guest:Are you an ELO guy?
Guest:Oh, massive.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Massive ELO guy.
Guest:Embarrassingly, but have to say, I probably knew all about the Beatles through ELO.
Guest:Really?
Guest:ELO were like my surrogate Beatles band.
Guest:My mom and dad didn't have any Beatles records when I was growing up.
Marc:How was that possible?
Guest:That almost seems illegal.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It should have been.
Guest:Yeah, probably illegal.
Marc:Where was this?
Marc:Was this in Australia or earlier?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In Australia.
Guest:My dad just loved American country music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So his records were all American country.
Marc:But were you born in Australia?
Guest:I was born in New Zealand.
Guest:Did you live there for long?
Guest:No, I was barely two when my parents moved to Australia.
Marc:Now, like, is New Zealand a thing where, like, if you grew up in Australia, you're like, I'm going to go to New Zealand for the weekend?
No.
Marc:I don't know about the weekend, but... Do people fly there?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, I mean, is it like going to... Like going to Hawaii or something?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's closer.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:From Australia to New Zealand.
Guest:Three hours.
Guest:But people vacation there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my mom and dad, just classic, young, rural country kids that wanted a bigger, better life.
Marc:But this is...
Marc:But we're all young country kids in New Zealand.
Marc:Like, there is some sort of weird correlation.
Marc:So he had all... Like, what country records were you listening to?
Guest:Did he have?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:I mean, the first concert we went to was Johnny Cash when I was about seven.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Early 70s.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My dad took us to that.
Guest:And...
Guest:All his records were Charlie Pryde, Waylon Jennings, Dom Williams, Willie Nelson.
Guest:George Jones.
Guest:George Jones.
Guest:All of them.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:My dad loved American country.
Guest:Is that something... Is that an Australian thing?
Guest:It was a dad thing.
Guest:It was...
Guest:Because he grew up in New Zealand.
Guest:He's a drummer.
Guest:He is a drummer.
Guest:So in the 50s, when he was a teenager, rock and roll exploded all around the globe.
Guest:And my dad just was obsessed with American music, American cars, everything American.
Marc:So it was Elvis?
Guest:Massive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did he have an American car?
Guest:We only had American cars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the oddball family in our town with Pontiac or Chev or Buick or something.
Marc:And so they were readily available?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:People would always import them.
Guest:I guess I don't know what I'm thinking.
Guest:I'm like, what's a famous Australian make of car?
Guest:Holden's was an Australian make of car.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Holden, which is really the GM.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So Holden was the Australian one.
Guest:And then Ford.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were the two, you know, it was like Pepsi and Coke, right?
Guest:Yeah, okay.
Guest:He's got Ford and Holden.
Guest:You had one or the other, and you hated the other person.
Guest:Right, but your dad had Pontiac.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, and Chev's.
Guest:Like Camaros or?
Guest:No, we had a Bel Air.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We had a couple of Lankins.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Mark IV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Pontiac, a thing called a Laurentian, which is a weird...
Marc:model 1959 but was it unusual to be like a country fan in Australia I mean because I have no sense of like because I know there are well I made the mistake of using the word cowboy to Nick Cave and in what context do you say cowboy to Nick Cave well because like my idea of a cowboy you know in terms of like the loner that kind of makes his own way his own hero yeah yeah that's good
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I said, you're kind of a cowboy.
Marc:And he like was, you know, because I guess it means something different in Australia.
Marc:I felt like it was he thought I was calling him gay or something.
Right.
Marc:And he got very prickly.
Marc:I wouldn't imagine that.
Marc:And it was weird from that point.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He didn't take it right.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:But there are real cowboys in Australia.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Because it seems like, what's his name?
Marc:Russell Crowe's kind of become a cowboy.
Guest:I mean, it's a massive rural country.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's huge, you know.
Guest:And a lot of rodeo stars in Texas come from there.
Guest:A lot of the rodeo riders that go and compete and do all the stuff in Texas, a lot of them come from Australia.
Marc:It's interesting, right?
Marc:I mean, because there's also actors, too, for some reason.
Marc:They breed a certain type of actor there.
Marc:Big actors.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, Russell and Joel Edgerton and Nicole and what's the other one?
Marc:Mel Gibson.
Guest:I mean, there's a million of them down there.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:I mean, per capita, it's pretty dense.
Guest:But not country singers.
Guest:Well, there is, but they just haven't – you've got to come to Nashville.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You've got to put in the time.
Guest:But, like, is there a music – There is an Australian country music.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And how is that different?
Guest:It involves more of a sort of regional colloquial lyrics and stories and things that are about Australia.
Marc:But it's still kind of the four chords, maybe the fifth one?
Marc:Maybe –
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They found the secret cord.
Guest:It's like country style, American country style.
Guest:So that's, I mean, that was why I always wanted to come to Nashville.
Guest:Because on the back of my dad's records, it always said recorded in Nashville, Tennessee.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I went, oh, that's where you got to make records.
Marc:So you get your first guitar.
Marc:It's the Ibanez copy of a telly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then when do you get your next guitar?
Marc:What's that one?
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:Well, no, I know exactly what it was.
Guest:So I was nine when I got my Ibanez Telecaster copy.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:So you're at it pretty young.
Marc:I started playing guitar at six.
Marc:Now, were you a wizard or were you just a regular kid?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Like, I mean, it seems like they're because you're a great guitar player.
Marc:And, you know, either, you know, you have a natural proclivity or, you know, you practice your ass off.
Yeah.
Marc:I'd say all the above, a combination of all of it.
Guest:I started my 10,000 hours early.
Marc:Yeah, so when you locked in at nine, you were ready to go.
Guest:Yeah, I wasn't very good at nine.
Guest:No, right, obviously, yeah.
Guest:But I got this Telecaster, and I had it until I was about 15.
Guest:And then a friend of mine turned me on to diastrates when I was about 15 years old.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was just obsessed with Mark Knopfler.
Guest:So you learn in those licks?
Guest:Yeah, that's what I wanted to play like Mark.
Guest:From the first Dire Straits record?
Guest:First record and Communique and Tunnel of Love, Love Over Gold, all those records.
Marc:Yeah, and nobody plays like that guy.
Marc:But I think he, like, I feel like, you know who he kind of plays, like, who I feel like might be a source, but I don't know, I've never talked to Knopfler, but Richard Thompson.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:I mean, that guy.
Guest:I wouldn't be surprised.
Marc:That guy's an animal on guitar.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's fucking crazy.
Marc:Mark has always cited Hank Marvin and Chet Atkins as primary.
Marc:Yeah, that makes sense with that picking.
Marc:Did your dad have Chet Atkins records?
Marc:Nope.
Guest:No.
Marc:Do you ever watch those old YouTubes of Glen Campbell?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I've done many deep dives on Glen.
Marc:What a guitar player, right?
Marc:Amazing guitar.
Marc:Jerry Reed, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, gotcha.
Marc:Man with the golden thumb.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:I mean, it's crazy, dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And Roy Clark, to a certain degree.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Those guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But when you see, because when I was growing up, Glenn Campbell had those hits that were not guitar songs, and Jerry Reed did a couple of goofy hits.
Marc:But then when you do a little deeper dive, you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To see those guys, to see Chet and Jerry Reid play?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:Well, Glenn was a good influence for me because my dad had Glenn Campbell records too.
Guest:And you could identify, because he was a studio guy, right?
Guest:I didn't know he played guitar.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:I'm just a little kid listening to this guy sing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He has an amazing voice, singing songs like Wichita Lyman and Galveston.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Where's the Playground Susie?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Amazing songs.
Guest:that weren't country, quote end unquote, right?
Guest:Right.
Marc:They're just great songs.
Marc:It is interesting that they don't really identify as country.
Marc:They're just like everyone knew them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because you listen to George Jones and you're like, that's country.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Glenn's voice was more a cross-genre voice.
Guest:He didn't have a hardcore twang in a particular way of singing that made him country, which is why he was so popular, pop country in that regard.
Guest:Those songs are pop songs, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what are you doing in Australia with, you know, so you have the Ibanez to like 15.
Marc:When do you start?
Guest:Then I get a Strat, a proper Fender Stratocaster.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:At 15.
Guest:Like a new one?
Guest:Well, again, embarrassed to say.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a short-lived one that Fender did called The Strat.
Guest:They only made him in like Lake Placid Blue, Candy Apple Red.
Guest:Wait, was this in the 80s?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had one of those.
Guest:1980 and 81, 82, right around there.
Guest:And it had, oh, okay.
Guest:Weight a ton.
Guest:Right, big neck.
Guest:Gold hardware.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Candy apple red.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's what I bought.
Guest:I should have bought a Les Paul.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it would have been.
Guest:If I'm going to bust my shoulder up, let's put, you know.
Guest:It would have been the same thing.
Guest:It would have been better.
Guest:So are you, did you put a band together then?
Guest:I was in a band.
Guest:From what age?
Guest:12.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, my mom and dad would drive me around to gigs.
Guest:And then I quit school at 15 and was playing five nights a week.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In Australia?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, what was the situation?
Marc:Bars?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They didn't have that... I never had that issue with being underage and playing in a bar.
Guest:Well, maybe they have different rules in Australia.
Guest:I don't know if they just...
Guest:looked the other way yeah or whatever but I never had any issues were all you guys kids huh no it was a family band so it was mom dad and their two sons yeah and I joined that band and then moved in with that family anyway
Guest:The plot thickens.
Guest:But this band would play without me during the week because I'm in school.
Guest:And I said to my mom, you know, you can legally leave school when you turn 15.
Guest:So I'm going to turn 15 this October.
Guest:I would like to leave school and be playing five nights a week in the band.
Guest:And she's like, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, because I suck at school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm already doing what you know I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not some little passing phase that I'm in.
Guest:Yeah, I'm in it.
Guest:I've been doing it since I was six.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is what I do.
Guest:Just let me get out of school and join this band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So she's like, okay.
Guest:So I turned 15 and I was out of there.
Guest:What did your dad say?
Guest:He was totally supportive.
Guest:He's a drummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, yeah, you suck at school.
Guest:Were they together?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I was terrible at school.
Guest:Were they together?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are they still?
Guest:My dad passed away seven, eight years ago.
Guest:Oh, sorry.
Guest:And then my mom's still alive and thriving.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Yeah, she's great.
Guest:82?
Guest:Got all her brain?
Guest:Oh, God, she's sharp as a tack.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Fit, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:How about your mom?
Marc:Yeah, they're both around.
Marc:My dad's losing it mentally.
Marc:How old's your dad?
Marc:86.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And it's funny about that is that like people are like, oh, he got dementia.
Marc:I'm like, he's old.
Marc:You're going to, something's going to go.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I mean, 86, that's old.
Marc:For some reason, people are always sort of like, he's not old anymore.
Marc:No, it's old.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:80 anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They made it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Unless you're 80 something and then you say it's not old.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, you've got to hold on to hope.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And your mom?
Marc:How's your mom?
Marc:She's all right.
Marc:I mean, she's 80.
Marc:I think she's 82.
Marc:Her brain's okay.
Marc:Physically, she's a little hobbled.
Marc:But she's still plugging away.
Marc:Do they listen to your podcast all the time?
Marc:My dad does.
Marc:Hi, guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, there you go.
Marc:I'm sure my dad's wife loves you.
Marc:She's a big country person.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:She's actually got a...
Marc:She had a quilt made of all her Willie Nelson concert T-shirts.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, it's on their bed.
Marc:It's just a quilt made out of country concert T-shirts.
Marc:That's awesome.
Marc:Did she actually make it?
Marc:No, there was a company that would do that.
Marc:And oddly, those T-shirts, after a certain amount of years, become more valuable.
Marc:There's a whole collector's market of that shit.
Marc:Have you been to Fred Siegel?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico and, you know, country music was sort of off to the side to me.
Marc:You know, but, you know, the state fair, they'd always have the guys playing Waylon and everybody else.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I grew up just rock and roll guy, you know, just rock guy.
Marc:Who did you listen to?
Marc:Well, when I was I graduated high school in 81.
Marc:So I had a strange kind of like I knew a guy at a record store next to where I worked at a restaurant.
Marc:He was kind of there were two guys that worked there that kind of defined.
Marc:Like one guy was this avant garde weirdo who turned me on to like, you know, some of the Bowie stuff, like some of the like the residents, like weird, you know, Fred Frith, noise music and all that.
Marc:So that was I knew that existed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was sort of, you know, mind blown by that.
Marc:And then another guy turned me on to all the soul music, made me a mixtape of all the Motown guys and all that.
Marc:But when I was in high school, it was like, you know, so it was the crashing, you know, I was in high school when the last Zeppelin record came out.
Wow.
Marc:And I was in high school when punk rock sort of started to happen, but New Wave kind of pushed disco out.
Marc:But for me, I mean, I listen to all kinds of stuff, but it was, you know, we were all pretty, like when Van Halen's first album came out, it kind of changed the planet.
Marc:And it came out pretty near when Dire Straits first came out.
Marc:Yeah, late 70s.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like, you know, you walk out into the parking lot and guys with their cars, the doors open and just cranking eruption.
Marc:And, you know, like it was it was game changing.
Marc:Foreigner was around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, for me, it was Zeppelin, a lot of Zeppelin.
Marc:And then like it kind of evolved.
Marc:You know, I like I was a big blues head, too.
Marc:I got turned on to the blues really early on.
Marc:It's a great mix.
Marc:I had some John Mayo records.
Marc:The Stones, big Stones guy.
Marc:Iggy.
Marc:But that was later.
Marc:But country came later, and I became sort of a George Jones freak, and then I kind of got hip to all the other stuff.
Marc:What did you like about George?
Marc:Well, no one sings like that guy.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Outside of everything else.
Marc:Nobody lives like that guy.
Marc:Well, that's for sure.
Marc:I mean, I think people try, and they don't do it on purpose.
Marc:But they usually don't get as far as he did with it.
Marc:It's a rare guy that ends up on a tractor driving because his wife took the car away, driving into town on a tractor to get a bottle of booze.
Guest:And that's the thing about so many of those artists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They sing like that because it's their lifestyle.
Yeah.
Marc:Right, but he had some sort of weird, hilly, kind of almost Appalachian phrasing.
Marc:Because I know he was a Hank Williams guy because he did that Hank record, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there's something about his phrasing that is more... It's pure country.
Marc:It's almost like, you know, you come out of the Carter family and that stuff and you get some of that hill music in flux.
Marc:But he seemed to have... It seemed to be at the heart of him, a different type of phrasing.
Guest:Yeah, it's almost like some of the...
Guest:dare I say, the sort of Perry Como type, like crooner.
Guest:He sounds like a crooner and a bluegrass cat.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Fused together.
Marc:Yeah, but he hit those weird notes.
Marc:Like there's something so specific about it.
Marc:Like, you know, that song, He Stopped Loving Her Today, which is a bigger production.
Marc:But like, you know, you try to cover that song and you better be very sensitive to his phrasing or it's not going to work.
Marc:No, it's amazing.
Marc:You just don't do it.
Guest:Just do your own thing.
Guest:Just change the whole song.
Guest:Well, I tried it once.
Guest:Did you?
Marc:It's one of the greatest songs ever written in country music.
Marc:It is true.
Marc:When I played that song for somebody for the first time, and I'm like, just listen.
Marc:I'm starting to cry.
Marc:Think about it.
Marc:Like, it's one of those songs where every time I listen to it, I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:It's fucking beautiful.
Marc:It really is.
Guest:What an amazing concept for a song.
Marc:I mean, that's the thing about country.
Marc:It's all, like, you know, it's like when I listen to your records, like, in a lot of ways...
Marc:You know, country is going to evolve how it's going to evolve.
Marc:But musically, it's going to evolve how it's going to evolve.
Marc:But it stays within the country parameters a bit, though it's very poppy now.
Marc:But it's really about the words.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I mean, it's like it's the whole thing.
Marc:It's like a lot of rock.
Marc:I don't even know what the fuck they're saying.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's riff driven.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like country, you got to lock into the emotional thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, except, you know, I'm in the same boat.
Guest:I grew up with a lot of rock.
Guest:I loved the sound and the feeling more than the specific meaning of certain words.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Marc:I barely listen to words sometimes.
Guest:Sorry, what did you say?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think because it's guys in general, I don't mean to generalize, but my dad wouldn't know what was being said.
Guest:He just liked the vibe.
Guest:The beat, the vibe, the feeling.
Guest:And then my mom only knew what was being said.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I guess that's the nature of it.
Marc:And that's why I guess you get a lot of, maybe I'm generalizing, but it seems like some singer-songwriter stuff is sort of for the ladies like it more than the guys like it.
Marc:Am I wrong?
Marc:What's your audience like?
Marc:What do you know about them?
Guest:It's always been a lot of girls, for sure.
Guest:Except when we play, although I think if there's guys in the audience, almost all of them are guitar players, pretty much.
Marc:They're just waiting for the solo.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:They bring their girlfriends and the girlfriends are singing along and they're like, all right, here we go.
Guest:I call them the reluctant boyfriends because I see them out in the crowd, less so now than early in my career.
Guest:Early in my career.
Guest:I'd look out in the arena and I'd see all these guys with their arms folded.
Guest:And you can tell they're like, she seems happy.
Guest:I'm going to get laid tonight at least, thank God.
Guest:I'm just going to put up with this guy for the next two hours.
Guest:And then I'd watch them slowly look up like, well, actually this is not.
Guest:It's not that fucking hell.
Guest:Then it would change completely and they'd walk out very, very different.
Guest:But they always start the sort of reluctant guy who got dragged along to the concert.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I get it totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's still a fine market to have the ladies like you.
Marc:Oh, anybody.
Marc:Traditionally.
Marc:Take anybody liking me.
Marc:Like, as a comic, you know, later in my career, for some reason, I've started to attract a lot of middle-aged women.
Marc:And I get those reluctant guys in my audience going, like, I do a joke about it.
Marc:I go, a third of you are hardcore fans.
Marc:And then there's, like, so you're sitting out there knowing about me and everything I talk about.
Marc:And then another third of you are sitting there going, like, so this is the guy, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:But it's fine with me, I guess.
Guest:I get a lot of people in Vegas that it's a hard place to play sometimes for me.
Guest:I never go there.
Guest:Because they're curiosity people.
Marc:They're also just people like, I've lost enough money.
Marc:What's going on in here?
Marc:Right.
Guest:I need to take a break from the tables.
Guest:I hope this guy can cheer me up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, but I also embrace the challenge of people sort of sitting there going, all right, let's see what this guy does.
Marc:But, you know, you, I mean, it's not, you know, you've got a big production element.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're not going up there raw.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:You're putting on a show.
Guest:Well, weirdly enough, this show that we're doing right now in Vegas, which we're coming back in February to do another five shows, actually starts out with just me and a fluorescent light above my head playing an acoustic guitar.
Marc:Straight up, no slide.
Guest:Nothing, just nothing.
Guest:Just literally nothing.
Guest:Well, that's nice.
Guest:Bring them in.
Guest:It's raw.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, that's where we start.
Marc:Well, I mean, you did a lot of kind of bluesy stuff early on.
Marc:You know, some of the stuff was kind of acoustic heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah, when I say it's acoustic, I have a particular style that sounds like I've got a kick drum underneath me.
Guest:It's very thump driven.
Guest:Oh, with your hand?
Guest:With your thumb?
Guest:Just with my palm, just the rhythmic style.
Marc:Are you aware of your tone?
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:But is there a point where you land on it and you're like, this is it?
Guest:For a week, yeah.
Guest:It's like the little pedals, right?
Guest:The little effects pedals.
Guest:This is the ultimate effects pedal.
Guest:And then all the other guitarists hear about that and they run out and get one and they're like, hey, I got one of these.
Guest:And then the guy goes, oh, no, that was last week.
Guest:This is the shit.
Guest:This week.
Guest:It's like, never ends.
Guest:What kind of pedals do you use?
Guest:This week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just a bunch of different hub dies, but, you know, tube screamers, rat, just a little regular.
Guest:Old tube screamer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's an old tube screamer, old rat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the go-tos.
Guest:But nothing like a panel of, like, some guys have, like, a keyboard down there.
Guest:I don't have anything at my feet.
Guest:My tech just engages a couple of different things.
Guest:Have you heard about that Neil Young thing that the guy built for him?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That turns the microphones from one amp to the next, doesn't it, right?
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I interviewed him once, and there's something very funny about that guy because no one sounds like him.
Guest:No.
Marc:And it's almost timeless somehow, his production.
Marc:For most of the records, you listen to it, it transcends time.
Marc:Because production-wise, he's not making a mess of things.
Marc:There's something about him that's just this timeless guy.
Marc:But I asked him about the amps, and he's like, yeah, it's like he plays that old custom, the deluxe that's been painted black, and he's got all these old amps kind of
Marc:Rigged up.
Marc:And he doesn't even know if they're going to make it through a show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's part of his thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if we're going to pull it off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that whole thing might melt down, this Frankenstein of amps.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Got to respect that, right?
Marc:Oh, I love it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's primal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why it's timeless.
Guest:It's primal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Even the way he plays.
Guest:Everything about Neil is primal.
Marc:All right, so tell me, let's move on from this.
Marc:Like the family, what are you playing with the family?
Marc:What do you mean the family?
Marc:The family band.
Marc:When you're starting out, they bring you as a guitar player.
Guest:Oh, we've gone back to when I was 15 and I joined the family band.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:Probably, I was in a bit of, well, no, I had a Fender Twin, Fender Twin Reverb.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I bought it when I got my Strat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just went, okay.
Guest:They're hard to dirty up.
Guest:Yeah, but this thing was, it was the 120,
Guest:25 watt thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It weighed a ton.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So heavy.
Marc:Did it have the JBLs in it or just the other one?
Guest:That was, I guess, whatever came with it.
Guest:The stock ones.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But it was just stupid.
Marc:It was my first amp, too.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But for some reason, I bought the one or had my, you know, it was gifted the one with the JBLs, which it was impossible to dirty up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It had a gain that you could pull out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A knob.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Get you a little something.
Guest:Yeah, and I think at the time I probably had one of those little orange distortion, Boss Distortion DS1 or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, my tone was like shit back then.
Marc:Yeah, it's a weird thing about tone.
Marc:I don't think I really knew about it until like, you know, less than 10 years ago.
Marc:Like what you're really gunning for.
Marc:And then people say tone is in the fingers.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Well, it's in everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You touch your tone.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, your approach, the way you hear things, but...
Guest:I said to a good buddy of mine, Tom Bukovac, one time, many years ago, I was like, man, I'm just struggling with my tone on stage.
Guest:I know what I'm reaching for and I can't fucking rock.
Guest:He goes, well, what kind of players do you like?
Guest:And I'm like, Clapton, Gilmore, Knopfler, Billy Gibbons.
Guest:I'm rattling off all the icons.
Guest:He goes, well, man, you know what they got in common?
Guest:I'm like, what?
Guest:He goes, they don't move.
Guest:And he goes, you're running all around the stage everywhere.
Guest:He's like, do you want great tone or do you want to fucking run everywhere?
Guest:I'm like, can I do both?
Guest:So that was kind of up the ante on the equation you were trying to solve.
Guest:Yeah, but it did make a lot of sense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I stand still at soundcheck, my tone is always better than it is at night.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that because you hear it differently?
Guest:No, it's because I'm not moving.
Guest:It's because I can focus and play.
Guest:Pocket it, attack the string nicely, delicate.
Marc:So did it change your approach to performance?
Marc:Do you now stop and stand still when you solo?
Guest:Not to that degree, but I do play louder with more headroom so I can attack more gently.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And not play aggressively.
Marc:Oh, Billy Gibbons.
Marc:How great is that guy?
Marc:It's so funny because Billy and Gilmore are direct sort of Peter Green disciples.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And like, you know, it's that minor, they can go in between the major and minor.
Marc:It's like, it's a unique thing.
Marc:Clapton's Clapton.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, like, Peter Green to me is, like, a god.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, listening to those original Fleetwood Mac things, it's crazy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Those licks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that Gilmore is all about that.
Guest:I love Gilmore.
Guest:Do you know him?
Guest:I don't know him.
Guest:No, but he's definitely one of my all-time heroes.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Oh, God, yeah.
Marc:That Black Strat?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, so you're running around with his family and then you move in with them.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah so you had enough of your parents dad well we lived like an hour and a half away oh from the city yeah we lived out in the farm and so i'm like i'll just move with the family yeah a lot easier yeah because i can't drive yeah i'm 15 so but things weren't horrible at home you didn't have to leave didn't have to leave i just wanted it was great it's great not having to live at home at 15 it's
Marc:Fantastic.
Marc:Yeah, but now you're like, you drop out of school, you're not living at home, so now you're just living the life of a musician, but you are in some family's house.
Marc:I am, yeah.
Marc:So there must have been some rules.
Marc:There was a little bit of structure, for sure, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Chores and stuff like that.
Marc:So how long does it take for you to kind of like land into the mode of...
Marc:you know, writing original music and then, you know, with a real goal of getting out and recording.
Guest:I drifted in and out of all kinds of different bands, duos, trios.
Guest:Any hard rock bands?
Guest:One hard rock band called Fractured Mirror.
Marc:Yeah, what'd they play?
Guest:Saxon, Judas Priest, Scorpions, Iron Maiden.
Guest:Oh, was that fun to play for you?
Guest:It was for the 10 seconds I was in the band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I had my Strat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mentioned my Candy Apple Red Strat.
Guest:I ripped the pickup out, put a DiMazio humbucker in there.
Guest:On the lead?
Guest:Yeah, because I just discovered Iron Maiden and I became obsessed with Dave Murray.
Guest:So it wasn't fat enough.
Guest:Electric guitarist.
Guest:Yeah, so I'm like, rip that single coil out and put a humbucker in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I really wished I'd had a Marshall stack.
Guest:You needed that.
Guest:So I get a call from this band.
Guest:The lead singer plays guitar and has a Marshall stack.
Guest:And he goes, I don't want to play guitar.
Guest:I just want to be up front and be a singer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you join our band, you can use my Marshall.
Guest:I'm like, I'm in heaven.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I joined this band.
Guest:But at the same time, I just discovered a guy called Ricky Skaggs.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Albert Lee, who was chicken picking.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Just the chicken picking king.
Marc:That guy is like, that's incredible.
Guest:So good.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:So I'm into Iron Maiden and Ricky Skaggs at the exact same time.
Guest:Oh, it's a crossroads, man.
Yes.
Guest:massive identity crisis so i'm in this i'm in this band we plan a gig they throw me a solo and through my humbuckered strat through the double the double stack marshal i ripped this chicken picking distorted guitar solo this guy looks at me like what the fuck are you doing you know they fired me so when do you just solidly land in country then
Guest:Well, I was already in it.
Guest:I just had to figure out what my blend of it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's really it.
Guest:And then you got that first band together that you did that second record with?
Guest:The Ranch?
Guest:Yeah, the pivotal thing that happened to me was in the late 80s.
Guest:I discovered John Mellencamp and really loved what he was doing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I went and saw his concert.
Guest:In Sydney or somewhere?
Guest:In Brisbane.
Guest:Oh, Brisbane, yeah.
Guest:And it was literally like an epiphany, this concert.
Guest:And it wasn't because...
Guest:I'll just frame it.
Guest:So I walk into this arena and here's Mellencamp.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's got the most badass rock rhythm section.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Bass drums, electric guitar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just screaming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then he's got this girl on fiddle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's got a dude on accordion.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, what is this?
Guest:What is this music?
Guest:It's like everything I love.
Guest:And it was literally like this light bulb went, right, so just do your own thing.
Guest:And I just walked out of there with total clarity on not doing what John did, but taking his ethos, his approach.
Marc:It's so funny because the generation before you had that experience with the band.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For sure.
Guest:What a great example.
Marc:It's a similar idea, the sort of integration of a purely Americana music.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you were lit up.
Guest:And had you done any records before?
Guest:Hadn't done any records.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I was a couple of years out from doing my first record.
Guest:So was it Cougar, like Little Pink Houses Cougar?
Guest:No, it was Lonesome Jubilee.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:So late 80s.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I saw John Mellencamp...
Marc:John Cougar, he was called.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I saw him touring on his first record in the late 70s, and he was opening for Richie Blackmore's Rainbow.
Marc:No way.
Dude.
Marc:That would have been great.
Marc:My buddy and I drove all the way to Denver because he was a Blackmore freak, and I was like, oh, well, let's just go.
Marc:I'll go with him.
Marc:And when Cougar came out, I'm like, well, this is my kind of music.
Marc:I thought he was amazing.
Marc:Oh, he's amazing.
Marc:And I bought that first record, and I still think it's a great record.
Guest:He's a badass.
Guest:I don't know why he doesn't get more cred, because he's a badass.
Guest:Because he's a cranky fuck.
Guest:Yeah, but so is Van Morrison.
Guest:He didn't get the shit.
Marc:But look, Cougar did fine with album sales.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But he should get more cred than he does.
Marc:And his band was insanely great.
Marc:When I interviewed him, I was nervous because I was like, I know Cranky.
Marc:But I got him around.
Marc:He was all right.
Marc:As long as I let him smoke, he was good.
Marc:He didn't want me to tell anybody, but he was good.
Guest:I told him when I got to meet him, I told him that story, this young me.
Guest:And I said, and I walked out of that
Guest:concert going i know what to do now go do my own thing and john was like man it's so good that you got it yeah because most kids walk out and go i'm gonna do that right and john's like that's not the point right don't do what i'm doing i'm already doing it oh so nice he was gracious do your thing yeah yeah yeah he was great i get along great with john yeah so all right so once you start doing your own thing it locks in you get it like you sell some records in australia yeah sold a few records in australia and
Guest:Had a few singles down there on the country charts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Got a road crew and was like building the band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Here we go.
Guest:Here we go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want to come to Nashville.
Guest:Yeah, you have to because you're looking at those records.
Marc:You're looking at those.
Guest:It's also, you got a limited ceiling in Australia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No matter who you are or what you do.
Guest:You're only going to get to go so far, and then that's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you'd just be cycling around.
Guest:Like ACDC.
Guest:Well, they had to break out.
Guest:I know.
Guest:They had to go.
Guest:All of them have to go.
Guest:Actors, all of them.
Marc:What a great fucking band, ACDC.
Guest:Oh, my God, yeah.
Marc:I mean, you were too young probably when they were still in Australia.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I didn't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:I love that guy's guitar playing.
Guest:He's right up there for me.
Guest:Astounding.
Guest:One of the rare guys who can run around the stage and sound amazing.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Him and Eddie.
Guest:It's a small list.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Not a lot of them.
Marc:So when you get to Nashville, how does that work?
Marc:Because I noticed...
Guest:well we can get to it so you you've got a bit of a rep you've got a couple of hits somewhere else and you go with you take your band to Nashville I took I couldn't I didn't have any money so I just went I had a five piece band yeah so what's the minimum I could take bass and drums sure and be a three piece okay so we go to Nashville we're a three piece band yeah my rhythm guitarist and keyboard player I left behind they were my two singers so I got this three piece band with no no singer it's just me were you confident
Guest:yeah blind blind faith yeah blind faith in what i was doing and how much and you were writing all your own songs already no i was co-writing and you know finding some songs yeah yeah written and things like right but doing lots of covers still yeah trying to get in the door right sure you know so what happens when you get there
Guest:To Nashville?
Guest:A real mix of things.
Guest:It's a deceptively tough town.
Guest:What year is this?
Guest:Early 90s, so 91, 92.
Marc:So the old guard is kind of still around and country's already sort of changing in terms of production.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No.
Guest:And it certainly wasn't where I was at.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was way out of step.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Completely out of step.
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Well, I'm in a three-piece band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Playing pretty raw, spirited, pub music.
Guest:Country.
Guest:Pub, rock, country.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fusion stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No one knew what the hell to make of it.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, there was a, it was too much rock, you think?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And then what happens?
Marc:How does it turn?
Yeah.
Guest:I just kept writing and writing and just chipping away, chipping away.
Marc:Was there a point where someone said, like, all right, this guy gets a shot?
Guest:So this guy used to, this guy called Cliff Aldrich, who worked for Sony Records, would come out and see our band play all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I came off stage one night and I said, Cliff, you're here every time we play.
Guest:And he goes, yeah, man, I love you guys.
Guest:And I'm like, how come we can't get signed?
Guest:He goes, I'm the only one who loves you.
Guest:But what I said to him, what am I doing wrong?
Guest:What am I doing wrong?
Guest:And he said, you're doing nothing wrong.
Guest:You're just really unique.
Guest:And it's going to be your biggest curse until it becomes your greatest blessing.
Guest:And whatever that was meant to mean that night, holy shit, it went right into the core of me.
Guest:And it was what I heard in that moment was, you're totally unlike anything, so no one knows what the hell to do with you.
Guest:But stay the course, stay the course.
Guest:It's going to work.
Guest:Just hang in there.
Guest:And when it does, it'll be because you're not like anybody else.
Guest:Oh, that's fucking good.
Guest:It was amazing.
Marc:Well, I mean, and also it's interesting because with music, it's one of those art forms where you can make adjustments if you're willing to sacrifice something like you can say, like, we can we can change this or that and and try to be more appealing to this or that.
Marc:You know, I can't do that as a comic, really, as a singular act.
Marc:But it seems like with music, you know, you can kind of adapt or try to.
Marc:And that's where people lose themselves.
Guest:Yeah, but you could do it in the form of a gig, right?
Guest:If you went to a corporate gig, you'd have to read the room and go, what kind of stuff is not going to work here?
Marc:Well, you know what I don't do?
Marc:What?
Marc:Corporate gig.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:It's like, that's not for me.
Marc:I wouldn't even go to fucking Vegas.
Marc:I know I'm kind of a buzzkill as a comic.
Marc:I'm not a lot of people's idea of a great night out.
Guest:Okay, so when you walk into any room you're playing or performing in,
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Does the room matter to you or are you just going to do what you do?
Marc:Well, it does.
Marc:And there are things that like there's a I think it's not unlike music.
Marc:There's a room where I can, you know, feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable and riff and do stuff that might be a little more challenging in terms of like punchline structure.
Marc:But then I know I have a good half hour of jokes that are going to land no matter what.
Marc:But when I do them, I kind of feel like I know this works and I can't really offer up my whole self here because these people aren't necessarily here to see me.
Marc:It's just a night of comedy.
Marc:Right, I see.
Marc:So I got to do the job.
Marc:Whereas if I got a room full of my people, who the fuck knows what's going to happen?
Marc:I have a lot more freedom creatively.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:But it's all me.
Marc:I just know some things are a little more palatable.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's better when people know when a joke is over.
Guest:So that right there...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is a good example of what I was navigating in Nashville.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If Nashville was the room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, it's all me.
Guest:I've got many, many parts of me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What would be the most logical ones to use right now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And which ones, let's put those up.
Guest:I always say that it's like meeting your girlfriend's parents for the first time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Is that the real you?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, it's one of them.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But it's the one you need right now to make sure that mom and dad are cool.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, I guess they like you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But sometimes that guy breaks down in their eyes eventually.
Marc:Well, that wasn't that wasn't really him.
Marc:It turns out that we met.
Marc:This guy's a fucking asshole.
Guest:But you got to get in the door.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You got to get some traction.
Marc:And it's hard to sell the asshole.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like, you know, if you're really.
Guest:Oh, I look back at what I was doing and I'm like, no wonder nobody signed me.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like how?
Guest:I had hair, like long ass hair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was wearing like an open, I look like I should be in like Soundgarden or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I just had long chains and shit.
Guest:It's the 90s.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'm just looking more grunge than anything.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm like so out of place.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like ridiculous.
Marc:So right away they're like, this is not of us.
Marc:He didn't sound like us.
Marc:He didn't speak like us.
Marc:So how does the break happen?
Marc:Which was the first album you did in Nashville, the first self-titled?
Guest:So I did an album with my band called The Ranch.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I listened to that, yeah.
Guest:Oh, you were the one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was in 1990s.
Guest:We've been looking for you everywhere, Mark.
Marc:I just did it yesterday, so I missed it.
Marc:That sounds about right.
Guest:Where'd this guy start?
Marc:But it's a good record.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Right?
Guest:It's raw, and it is what it is.
Guest:I like raw.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's actually more suited now than it was back in 1997 when we put it out.
Marc:But what are you thinking about guys like, you know, is Tweedy on your radar?
Marc:Jeff Tweedy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is Steve Earle on the radar then?
Marc:Sure, they all are, yeah.
Marc:In terms of like- Guitar Town was an amazing record.
Marc:It's a great record, but he couldn't, like Nashville didn't give a fuck about him either.
Guest:Or a Willie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Waylon, all the guys I loved.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:All the guys I loved, for the same reason.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They don't know what to do with them.
Marc:But oddly, Willie kind of fit in there as a songwriter, but when he decided to do the music he wanted to do, he had to carve out that zone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Him and Waylon.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:In what, the early 70s?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that changed everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I also, if you've moved it forward, I also love Dwight Yoakam and Katie Lang.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's two complete outsiders trying to figure out how to get accepted in Nashville.
Marc:But oddly, both of them were doing what was only outdated because country had moved on.
Marc:Like the orchestrations, they were doing what country music was supposed to do.
Guest:It's interesting with both of them because they have a little punk undercurrent thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially on their early records.
Guest:Dwight definitely had a punk.
Guest:undercurrent rawness about him which is the Bakersfield influence and Katie's was just straight she looked like she was a punk on the first record absolute torch and twang and I thought man if these guys can get any kind of traction I'm thinking of Lyle Lovett
Guest:He did the orchestras, but it was sort of like old-timey, you know, kind of like dance hall.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Guest:But, you know, I stayed the course.
Guest:There's plenty of artists that have been in the same position, a different version of it, but the same struggle of how do I get accepted in town and not lose myself.
Marc:But you aligned yourself with a producer, right, at some point?
Marc:So Golden Road, or what's the first Nashville record?
Marc:Keith Urban?
Guest:Yeah, the solo record in 1999.
Guest:Who produced that?
Guest:A guy called Matt Rawlings.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Great keyboard player, session player.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So were you doing sessions?
Guest:I wasn't doing any sessions, but I'd been put with all the name producers in town, a big chunk of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As my label was trying to figure out how.
Guest:Any old timers?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, a couple, one very legendary guy that was put with us when I was with the ranch, the Warner Brothers, who I signed with at the time, said, well, let's put you with this guy and see what happens.
Guest:Who was that?
Guest:I'm not going to name his name.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:The reason why is because this fucking guy, he was like the court-appointed attorney, right?
Guest:That's what it was like.
Guest:It's like, you know behind the scenes the label was like, listen, can you just go and produce this band?
Guest:And he's like, ugh.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I could use the scratch.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So he's sitting in the control room, and we track our song, and I come in, and he says to me, all right, boys, what you want as an overdub, fiddle or a steal?
Guest:Literally.
Guest:It's like you can't make this shit up.
Guest:And I go, I'm sorry, what?
Guest:He goes, you want fiddle or steel?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, I don't want either fiddle or steel on this track.
Guest:It doesn't need any of that.
Guest:He goes, I don't make the fucking rules.
Guest:Listen, fiddle or steel.
Guest:You decide.
Guest:I couldn't give a shit.
Guest:And I was like, I don't want fiddle or steel on this record.
Guest:They don't need it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he goes, kid, how many number ones have you produced?
Guest:And I went, oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You didn't just say.
Guest:People don't say.
Guest:That's in movies and shit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Nobody actually says that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you literally just said that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've produced none, and you know that.
Guest:And what a dumbass thing to say to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, I've produced none, and I'm not putting fucking –
Guest:And I walked out of there, out of the session.
Guest:And that was the last day with that guy?
Marc:That was the last I saw with that guy.
Marc:It was one day.
Guest:So then the guy you did land with, he was good.
Guest:So, Matt, you know, I came to the realization what I need is I need a musician.
Guest:To produce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I need a musician.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I got to put a band together in the studio.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like a proper session band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So Matt was great with that.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because he plays keyboards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was a muso.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he could talk to the musicians as a musician.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Not as a guy that plays golf.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Proper musician.
Guest:And how many records you do with that guy?
Guest:I did the first one with him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then somebody suggested I work with Dan Huff.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, that's the interesting thing.
Marc:Like, when did you first chart?
Marc:Was it on the first Keith Urban record?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had a, yeah, it was good that it was steady.
Guest:I think the first single was like top 15 or something, like number 15 or something.
Guest:And then the next single was like number four.
Guest:So now you got juice.
Guest:Now I got juice.
Guest:And then my third single was my first number one.
Guest:Which song?
Guest:It's called But For The Grace Of God.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oddly enough, I wrote with two girls from the Go-Go's.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Very strange.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:oh well that must have been nice for them yeah in terms of like you know like the way music publishing works it's great yeah so they if there's if they're on there they made money throughout their life oh they did great i mean they'd already done great but yeah yeah that's funny how'd you meet them i was kind of quasi-managed by miles copeland okay at the time yeah and uh and he said charlotte caffey and jane weedlin were coming to nashville to write with people and
Guest:Did I want to write with him?
Guest:Why not?
Guest:So I went, all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what we're going to write.
Guest:And then you got a hit.
Marc:We were at number one song.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now things are rolling and you've got this guy, Dan Huff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who you did like five, six records with, right?
Guest:We just clicked.
Guest:Another mezzo, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Amazing guitar player.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we just clicked in the studio.
Marc:And then you did a lot of hits with that guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Now, I know you're sober, so when did that start to destroy you?
Marc:What, sobriety?
Marc:Well, look, I got 25, 26 years now.
Marc:Congrats.
Marc:And, you know, the first five are tricky.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because you don't know.
Marc:But we don't tell anybody that.
Marc:Well, you want to be encouraging.
Marc:But, you know, if you tell somebody, like, I heard a thing in the rooms once, don't kill yourself in the first five years because you'd be killing the wrong person.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Guest:That's a great line.
Guest:Yeah, dude.
Guest:What a great line.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:AA's full of great quotes, isn't it?
Guest:Oh, the best.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:God doesn't wake up and think he's you.
Marc:That's enough.
Marc:Those are the ones that stick.
Marc:They're not the recovery sponsored one, but I like that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I heard that thing like, oh, it's a simple program for complicated people.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And my sponsor went, no, that's bullshit.
Guest:It's a simple program for simple people who think they're complicated.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:That's a good one.
Guest:Yeah, that's a level.
Guest:So when do you first hit the wall with that shit?
Guest:Oh, multiple times.
Guest:I went to three different rehabs over the course of eight years.
Marc:Yeah, I went—I mean, it took me—the first time I got sober was 88, and I was in rehab the one time.
Guest:How did that happen?
Guest:I mean, why did you go to rehab?
Marc:Because I—
Marc:I was out here, I was probably, what, 88, I was like 24, 25, and I'd come out here after college, and I was a doorman at the comedy store.
Marc:I was doing a lot of coke with Kenison, and what ultimately happened to me was that I... I always chuckle when someone says a lot of coke, because I'm like, is there such a thing as a little bit of coke?
Marc:Yeah, well, that's what you think it takes.
Marc:You know, like, I just need a bump, you know, five years later.
Marc:I'm in debt, and I don't...
Marc:This is one bump, man.
Marc:What's one bump going to do?
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Ruin your life?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but I went into psychosis because of the lack of sleep and all the blow.
Marc:I was like hearing voices in my head.
Marc:I was paranoid.
Marc:And I lost my mind.
Marc:So that's what got me...
Marc:To rehab the first time.
Marc:So you put yourself in?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I went back to New Mexico where I grew up.
Marc:I told my parents, like, I'm in trouble.
Marc:And I went in for 30 days, inpatient.
Marc:And then I would stay sober for like a year and a half here, a year and a half there.
Marc:So that's 88.
Marc:And now it's like, what, 2024?
Marc:And I got 25 years.
Marc:So it took me, you know, 30 some odd, you know, almost 40 years to get that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in and out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it never got as bad.
Marc:But it did take me about a year and a half to shake the paranoia.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:From the psychosis.
Marc:All right, what happened to you?
Guest:Paranoia is a bad thing.
Guest:Oh, dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a bummer because it just ruins all the other fun parts of it.
Marc:Yeah, because you have no control over it.
Marc:No.
Guest:And you're like, can I get this without the paranoia?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It would be much fun.
Marc:Even weed, dude.
Marc:I smoke weed every day, but eventually you're just sort of like, oh, they're all looking at me.
Marc:And you're like, no one gives a fuck.
Marc:No.
Guest:And you just fall down this hole of yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The sponsor I have right now, the very first thing when we met.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We sat down and he goes, Keith, I just want to start by saying, do you know how much people think of you?
Guest:And I said, shit, how much?
Guest:And he goes, rarely.
Guest:I laughed my ass off and I said, we are going to get along fucking great.
Guest:I love that there's this sort of shattering of ego with the one line.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like a relief.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:And I carry that back.
Guest:Very quote all the time in my head.
Guest:And it just it calms me.
Guest:It's important.
Guest:It's like my mantra.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There was another.
Marc:Some guy told me this one about a guy.
Marc:He's sitting at home, you know, and he's spinning out and he calls a sponsor.
Marc:It's like, you know, everything's fucked.
Marc:My whole life is falling apart.
Marc:You know, I'm never going to go anywhere.
Marc:Like everything I did was a waste of time.
Marc:Everybody's like talking about me.
Marc:And they're like, I don't know what the fuck is happening.
Marc:And the sponsor goes, where are you?
Marc:He goes, I'm at home.
Marc:I'm on my couch.
Marc:He goes, you're just a guy on a couch.
Marc:And to me, I'm like, that's it, man.
Marc:There's nothing more helpful for me than to realize that most of what my brain is doing, thinking on its own, has nothing to do with reality.
Marc:And it's just this projection.
Marc:So when I first got sober, for real, I did it for a woman who brought me into the program.
Marc:And I was in love with her.
Marc:So like that, you know, I knew I needed it.
Marc:But it was this idea of like, you know, when I'd be spinning out, she goes, what color are your shoes?
Marc:Where are we right now?
Marc:What, you know, what are you doing with your hands?
Marc:Like anything to get you out of the fucking head.
Marc:So where were you in your career when you first tried to get sober?
Marc:Late 90s.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:My girlfriend at the time, it's a long story, but the end of the night, let's put it that way, was me sitting at the front of the house that I was renting.
Guest:And my girlfriend had thrown me down the stairs in disgust and blah, blah, blah, literally.
Guest:And so...
Guest:And you were drunk enough to be thrown down the stairs.
Guest:I've been freebasing all afternoon.
Guest:Pretty much since noon.
Guest:And now it was like one in the morning.
Guest:Wide-eyed.
Guest:And it's that thing where you can't even get high anymore.
Guest:It's just done.
Marc:You're just locked up.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:I'm done.
Guest:And I'm sitting out on the front steps just going, what have I done with my life?
Guest:What's happened?
Guest:What's happened?
Guest:And down the street at one in the morning comes her car with the headlights off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And behind her is a police car with his headlights off.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, yay.
Guest:This is how it happens.
Guest:I remember it vividly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was very calm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they quietly pull up to the front of the house, and she and this cop walk across the front lawn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And anyway, he...
Guest:He had me go sit in the car while he and my girlfriend went downstairs and looked around at the house and all this stuff.
Guest:And he comes back up and he said, man, there's enough.
Guest:Plenty of stuff down there for me to arrest you.
Guest:Obviously, you're going to get deported.
Guest:But your girlfriend seems to think that you maybe need help.
Guest:What do you think?
Guest:I said, yes.
Guest:Yes, I need help.
Guest:Good answer.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he said, so...
Guest:She took a big risk.
Guest:He said this to me.
Guest:She took a big risk.
Guest:She saw me at the gas station.
Guest:She pulled in.
Guest:She said, can you come and help my boyfriend?
Guest:I don't want him to get arrested.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know you've got to do what you've got to do.
Guest:But if you cannot arrest him and somebody help me get him into rehab.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the cop basically went, she's going to drive you home.
Guest:Because we were living somewhere else.
Guest:She's going to drive you home.
Guest:And then tomorrow morning, you're going to check into rehab.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm going to call, make sure you're in there.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Is that a deal?
Guest:And I went, yep.
Guest:That's the best story.
Guest:That was the longest car ride home ever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the most awkward car ride.
Guest:And all I can tell you, in all honesty, is the entire car ride home, I'm thinking, how do I get back to my dealer's house?
Marc:It's the worst.
Guest:It's two in the morning and all this shit's gone down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's all I can think about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Can I get out of this car at speed, do a little duck and roll?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then head on back to town.
Marc:Run into the woods.
Marc:Insanity.
Marc:Insanity.
Marc:That drive to sort of like, like when I got sober the first time, the dealer, you know, there was a big sort of out in the parking lot.
Marc:I kind of had a meltdown in the comedy store and I'm breaking glasses.
Marc:And, you know, I'd been ostracized by all these guys I was hanging out with and I was freaking out.
Marc:And the drug dealer pulls up and I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what I should do, man.
Marc:And he goes, you got to get out of here.
Marc:And when the drug dealer tells you to go, it's time to go.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's like, you got to do your own thing.
Marc:I'm like...
Okay.
Marc:And I just loaded up my car the next day and gave away a bunch.
Marc:And I went and paid my drug dealer what I owed him and I left.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah, when your drug dealer says you're cut off, it's not a good, you're in a bad way.
Marc:Yeah, you've got to go.
Marc:So how long did you stay sober?
Guest:I went in just for the classic sort of 28-day program.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I always say this because it's kind of true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's pretty true.
Guest:I came out of there after 28 days and I went, hard drugs are my problem.
Guest:Yeah, not booze.
Guest:Not drinking.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was going to not go need a freebasing.
Guest:That'll take me down.
Guest:Like, I was having fun drinking.
Guest:That ruined it.
Guest:That was at 29 days?
Guest:You thought that?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:So I went, I got it.
Guest:Just go back to some nice, calm drinking, right?
Guest:And that continued for about three years.
Guest:Really?
Guest:No Coke?
Guest:Oh, I mean, what I'm saying is that eased over into that area.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But what I'm saying is, of course I was going to head back to all that stuff within a year or so.
Guest:Yeah, to stay up and drink more.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't get into massive trouble.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Until probably 2003.
Guest:Oh, sorry.
Guest:And then same thing happened.
Guest:Different girlfriend this time.
Guest:Same thing.
Marc:Off to my second rehab.
Marc:But are you happening at that point?
Marc:By then I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you had more to lose.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So do you come from it?
Marc:Alcoholism?
Yeah.
Guest:My dad's alcoholic.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that what got him?
Guest:Never got sober.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:No, he died of cancer, but he still died alcoholically.
Guest:Never got sober.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's weird when you're the kid of it.
Marc:You go either way.
Marc:Either you never touch your stuff or you just honor the legacy.
Marc:How about your parents?
Marc:No, my dad's a bipolar guy.
Marc:So you had this sort of same erratic behavior.
Marc:My mom has other sort of compulsive issues.
Marc:Do you have any of the bipolar?
No.
Marc:No.
Marc:I thought I did, but I don't.
Marc:I'm anxious.
Marc:A lot of anxiety.
Marc:A lot of dread.
Marc:A lot of hyper—what I got out of it.
Marc:I think, you know, if I really think about it, is that, you know, that kind of piece of shit at the center of the universe idea, sobriety.
Marc:Like, if you have parents that are, like, into the—selfish, pathologically selfish in whatever way, you're kind of left to bring yourself up in a way, emotionally.
Marc:And I find that, like—
Marc:When you're a kid, you can never think your parents are fucked up because they're your parents.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:So in your mind, you put this other parent in your head that is taking care of you, and that guy's a fucker.
Marc:He's going to tell you, you suck, you're not good enough.
Marc:So that was my experience.
Marc:So I got that kind of like pathological self-loathing and shame thing.
Marc:What about you?
Marc:Isn't that every comedian?
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Sadly, comedy has become more well-adjusted.
Marc:As the business gets more intrusive in the sense that you can't really make any kind of mistakes publicly, a lot of people have kind of shaped up and a lot of comics come from more of a sketch background.
Marc:But those of us who are kind of lone wolves with emotional problems that couldn't fit in anywhere else, we're a dying breed.
Marc:But there's a few around.
Marc:Well, a particular species.
Marc:Well, yeah, but I think show business in and of itself, just to survive in it and make your way in it, has become a bit more well-adjusted at the middle tier.
Marc:Maybe, yeah.
Guest:It's all relative to where you come from, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What you're dealing with, what you were...
Guest:What sort of genetic lottery ticket you got.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not just genetics, but emotional.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's the fucking thing.
Guest:Well, even that can be hereditary, though.
Guest:That sort of hereditary trauma kind of stuff.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's how you're wired.
Marc:And if your parents are dealing with that from a legacy, like from way back, it can keep going for generations.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All that shit.
Marc:I have a song on my album called Break the Chain.
Guest:The new one, yeah.
Marc:Which is literally about that.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a pretty song.
Marc:That guitar at the front is nice.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So you were thinking about that.
Guest:Well, I didn't know I was, but the day we wrote that song, it came out.
Guest:And I was shocked that that came out that day because I wasn't thinking about it at all.
Marc:Well, that's the hardest thing, isn't it?
Marc:I would think.
Marc:And you've got kids.
Marc:It's like, you know...
Marc:How do I do it differently in a way that lands?
Marc:Because you're always going to have the emotional liability, but how do you behave, act as if, or make contrary choices enough throughout a kid's childhood so they don't get the bug?
Yeah.
Guest:yeah i mean because we all come from some kind of dysfunction every single one of us we don't know it at the time right to your point yeah we just adapt sure behavioral patterns to survive in that yeah we go out of that family of origin go out into the world keep attracting the same wacky people and we're like what the hell is wrong with these people why do i keep attracting these people i know i know and then you realize oh it's because of how i'm behaving
Guest:But it's also because of how you're wired.
Guest:But what I'm saying is the way I'm behaving is because of how I'm wired.
Guest:So that behavior attracts a certain kind of person.
Guest:So I can't attract different people until I change my wiring.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Can I break a pattern of some sort?
Guest:Can I rewire my way of being?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:But the downside of that is it's sort of like you do it, and then you attract a different type of person.
Marc:And about three months in, you're like, this is fucking boring.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Can be.
Marc:But I guess this is the way it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No more crazy ladies.
Marc:God damn it.
Guest:It's hard to grow up, man.
Guest:It's hard to grow up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And I think that's all relative to where my inner child lives.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All of my personalities.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're all needed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like every stage in my life is needed.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In my construct.
Guest:But the bad ones shouldn't be able to take over.
Guest:They just need to be in context.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But to ignore them is not – that's not going to happen.
Guest:They'll remind me that they're there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And then you have to negotiate with them.
Right.
Yes.
Marc:You're like, I got to take a break.
Marc:I have to talk to myself.
Marc:Dude.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:We're not doing that.
Guest:Not today.
Guest:That's the beginning.
Guest:Have you seen Joker yet?
Guest:The new Joker?
Guest:No, I haven't seen the new one.
Guest:It's a great beginning because it's a cartoony thing.
Guest:It's not giving anything away.
Guest:It starts with a sort of a cartoon thing of Joker and his shadow.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Following him to a premiere.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And then the shadow does some other weird shit.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:And already I'm in.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm into this movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because the shadow is a fucking mysterious thing.
Marc:That's the fucking worst, dude.
Marc:And the weird thing about the shadow is when you're fucked up, you think that's all people see, that the shadow's forefront.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So during all this time of going in and out of sobriety, but now you've got like 20 years or something, right?
Marc:I've got 18.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you're working.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was working then.
Marc:But were you working in the capacity where people were like, oh, fuck, what's he going to be like today?
Guest:Well, you'd have to ask them, but I was a pretty fairly functioning addict, only in the sense that I would get really messed up when I was off the road.
Right.
Guest:It wasn't when I was on the road.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That kind of thing.
Guest:I didn't go in the studio making records all messed up.
Marc:Oh, it was just when you had too much time on your hands.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this new record, the question I wanted to ask you in terms of how music works now is like you did like five or six records with Huff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then like all of a sudden like the number of producers involved on any given album, I guess it's song to song, but there's a lot.
Guest:So that happened because every single one of those producers was a writer on that song.
Guest:Oh, so they want the credit.
Guest:Well, we would do... Well, you know, making demos... Yeah.
Guest:...when you're in the writing room... Yeah.
Guest:...has gotten to the point now where they can be the record.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Like, that can be the record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That didn't used to be the case.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But now the sound of demos is like, well, shit, that just sounds like the record.
Guest:Right, because everyone's got the great equipment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, for somebody like a Greg Wells or a Mike Elizondo or, you know, Benny Blanco, any of these guys that I've worked with as producers...
Guest:They're also great producers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So there's songwriters and producers.
Guest:So of course I'm going to do the track with them.
Guest:There's no reason to take it to someone else.
Guest:That's how that ended up.
Guest:So it wasn't like me with 12 different producers.
Guest:Song to song.
Guest:Every single person that I'm with.
Guest:If it's not Dan Half, I guarantee that song was written by that producer with me and some other people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So that's how it works now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But back in the day, it just was structured different because it was all on you to write the song or if you did a cover song.
Guest:I would co-write the songs.
Guest:But if I wrote the song with a track guy or somebody else, I would take it to Dan Hoffman.
Guest:We'd put it with the band.
Marc:So it's really the technology is what changed everything.
Guest:Pretty much.
Marc:Because the demos were so good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I think happened.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:For me, it did anyway.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But do you have – like in those situations, do you have one engineer or is it everybody – Different engineers.
Marc:With each time.
Guest:Really?
Marc:So putting a record together is not like, well, we knocked it out in three days.
Marc:No, it's complicated.
Marc:It's complicated.
Marc:It's like emailing files.
Marc:You know, you got to download files and like everything else.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like in terms of like – because it seems like you do have –
Marc:your own thing.
Marc:So when you're doing all these different textures of sound, I mean, is it a challenge to make sure it sounds like you?
Marc:I just, I like a certain thing.
Guest:Well, I don't think I have to think about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just like you, you have a style.
Guest:If you're going to write a joke or you're going to do something, you don't have to make it sound like you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It'll just be you.
Guest:And if it's not, then you probably won't do it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And how many of, do you find you're better off when you write with other people?
Guest:I like co-writing.
Guest:I've always liked co-writing.
Guest:And I've written some of my own 100% songs, but I love co-writing.
Marc:And what's the relationship there?
Marc:Is it the words of the music that really comes out of co-writing?
Guest:More so words for me.
Guest:I'm a melody guy.
Guest:Every now and then, certainly a song like Break the Chain, that was all my lyric on the day that came.
Guest:But that's unusual for me.
Guest:I like working with a great lyricist and then editing and tweaking and contributing collectively.
Marc:Yeah, and on Break the Chain, like you said before, you didn't realize how personal it was until it came out of you?
Guest:No.
Marc:Yeah, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it turned into a therapy session.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:I'd never met this guy before, Mark Sibley, who I wrote the song with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just walked in high.
Guest:I'm Keith.
Guest:Hi, Mark.
Guest:And I'm like, that's an interesting guitar.
Guest:He has this guitar.
Guest:I pull it up, play this riff.
Guest:And as I'm playing this riff, he's sticking a microphone in front of the guitar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't lose it.
Guest:I guess we're writing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Then this melody came.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And then these words came.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it happened so quick.
Guest:Is that your favorite on the record?
Guest:They're all my favorite for different reasons, or I wouldn't have put it on the record.
Guest:Like Daytona's a sweet song.
Guest:Is that the hit?
Guest:I didn't write that song.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:No, I love it.
Guest:Whose song is that?
Guest:These two guys, Stephen Lee Olsen and Nathan Barlow.
Guest:Nathan's in my band.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Great songwriter.
Marc:Yeah, and I like Chuck Taylor's too.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of sweet songs on there, man.
Marc:It's a big mix.
Marc:But that's just like, you know, you don't know that's going to happen until you sit with the guy and sort of like feel it out in the studio.
Guest:Yeah, you just get in and start jamming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a spirit happens and it feels good and we just latch on and away we go.
Guest:And then it's almost always melody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you've got the melody formed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I used to know what the hell we're saying.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:It's a great story about Mick and Keith writing songs where they ask Keith, how do you guys write songs?
Guest:And Keith's like, well, we come up with a little melody.
Guest:And then Mick goes out to the mic and makes vowel movements.
Guest:It's just bowel movements.
Guest:It's what it is.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's why those songs feel so good.
Guest:How great are the Stones, dude?
Marc:They're the best.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:I can't even.
Marc:You can't even explain why, really, in a sense.
Marc:It's a feeling.
Marc:That's why.
Guest:Just like the band, it's a feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I guess you kind of chase that, right?
Guest:You allow it to happen.
Guest:That's a different thing.
Guest:The space.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like that quote, there is no way to peace.
Guest:Peace is the way.
Guest:It's the same approach.
Guest:It's like you can't try and get in the flow state.
Guest:You just get rid of everything that's not.
Marc:But it's also the life of a musician.
Marc:That's the one thing I realized about the Stones.
Marc:Because I play, but it's not my life.
Marc:And guys who play for life, it's almost like nothing else exists.
Guest:And they're in the studio for fucking days.
Guest:That's me.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I don't play golf.
Guest:I don't hunt.
Guest:I don't fish.
Guest:I don't do jack shit.
Guest:I love music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's all I do.
Guest:And you're just in there for days.
Guest:I just bought a studio in Nashville.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:A really good one.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I'm so jonesing to get in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so you'll just wake up and be like, I'm going to go fuck around.
Marc:I hope so.
Guest:That's the plan.
Marc:Well, this record's great and you've had an amazing career.
Marc:You're lucky to be alive.
Marc:It's great talking to you.
Guest:You're lucky to be alive too, Mark.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And I'm glad you are.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Congrats to you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:You too.
Guest:Thanks for having me at your house.
Guest:You bet.
Marc:That was a pretty, you know, pretty deep stuff.
Marc:You know, I mean, I didn't ever know what to expect.
Marc:We got some places.
Marc:Again, his new album High is available now.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:Hey, folks, we've got more bonus material from past WTF guests on the full Marin this week.
Marc:Outtakes from recent episodes with Chris Robinson, Jason Ritter, Elizabeth Olson and more for bonus episodes twice a week.
Marc:Sign up for the full Marin.
Marc:Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod dot com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:And remember, before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Look, this guitar situation, I just kind of plowed through a thing that I was working on with the looper.
Marc:It didn't pan out on the looper.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:You know, it helped me.
Marc:It helped me.
Marc:It helped me.
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.