Episode 1580 - Sebastian Stan
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it today on the show i talked to uh sebastian stan
Marc:Look, you guys know him from the Marvel movies.
Marc:I don't really.
Marc:He's Bucky Barnes.
Marc:But he's also been in films like Logan Lucky, I, Tonya, The Martian.
Marc:And right now he's in two films.
Marc:He won Best Lead Performance at the Venice Film Festival for A Different Man.
Marc:And he's also starring as Donald Trump opposite Jeremy Strong's Roy Cohen in The Apprentice, which comes out this week.
Marc:I saw both of these movies.
Marc:Very good films.
Marc:Good actor.
Marc:Good guy.
Marc:Surprising story, really.
Marc:So he's on the show.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:And also, I want to thank everybody who bought the 100 Brian Jones mugs.
Marc:Most of that money going to support the people and communities and businesses that were destroyed in the wake of Helene.
Marc:Yeah, all the money going to that.
Marc:And now we've got another pottery related way to help out East Fork pottery, which is a big high volume pottery.
Marc:I think it's called a mold pottery where, you know, they make plates, bowls, mugs, stuff like that.
Marc:Household items.
Marc:I'm a big fan of it.
Marc:All my plates, bowls and mugs are East Fork.
Marc:And more than 90 percent of the East Fork team is in the western part of North Carolina, which was just devastated by the hurricane.
Marc:So they had a big sale of overstock and seconds, and that went very well.
Marc:And a lot of the proceeds were going to their community partners, working on the relief efforts, and the rest went to getting East Fork back on its feet.
Marc:A lot of that stuff is sold out, but they're still doing it.
Marc:They're taking 5% of the sales.
Marc:to go to several community partners.
Marc:All sales of the full price pieces will help also keep the payroll going as they try to put their world back together and also support the community they are in.
Marc:working in you can go to eastfork.com to see their stuff and uh you know it's a way to help out i'm sure there are many ways to help out you might want to look into that i mark maron will be a dynasty typewriter on saturday october 26th the rest of my tour dates are scheduled for next year you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to see all of them start the movie in a week
Marc:overwhelming overwhelmingly busy busy weekend on uh on friday wow friday morning uh kit woke up and her car had been stolen so there was a lot of that uh drama around that it's a very uh it's horrible to have anything stolen
Marc:But waking up and seeing your car gone, look, I've dealt with it.
Marc:Many people have dealt with it.
Marc:But, you know, it's a life changer.
Marc:It's a fucking nightmare.
Marc:And so we went through that, you know, police reports.
Marc:You had to do all that.
Marc:And, you know, it's one of those things.
Marc:It's not unusual, sadly.
Marc:But, you know, it's a big adjustment.
Marc:And, you know, these things kind of can make a little chaos, a little...
Marc:make a tensions rise in the dynamic.
Marc:But, you know, we got through it and, you know, figured out, you know, we got to see what the insurance has to offer, maybe get another car and you deal with it.
Marc:And then Saturday, Tom Sharpling's wedding was Saturday afternoon.
Marc:And, you know, it's just it's a hassle with the car thing now.
Marc:She lives across town and she comes over.
Marc:We're getting ready to go to the wedding.
Marc:She gets a call from the cops.
Marc:They found the car like a half a block away.
Marc:And she goes over there.
Marc:She's got, you know, she's flustered.
Marc:She's got to miss the beginning of the wedding.
Marc:She got to deal with the cops and whatever the case is, it showed up a half a block away.
Marc:And I don't know what we were baffled.
Marc:We don't know what the fuck that is.
Marc:You know, there's part of me that's sort of like, you sure you know where you park it?
Marc:But she did.
Marc:And it was just we don't know what happened.
Marc:And then Brendan said these Hyundais and these Kias are very easy way to hijack.
Marc:And it's a thing on TikTok where kids just start them up and take them for a ride.
Marc:I guess that's what happened.
Marc:Nothing was missing from the car.
Marc:And she made it back to the wedding, got dressed, and we went to the wedding.
Marc:She got there in time for the first dance.
Marc:And what a beautiful wedding it was.
Marc:What a beautiful wedding.
Marc:Congratulations to Tom Sharpling, Julia Vickerman.
Marc:What a lovely ceremony.
Marc:Weddings bring up a lot of feelings.
Marc:I always cry at the weddings.
Marc:I've had two.
Marc:One big one that we had little control over and one small one that we had complete control over and neither of them worked out.
Marc:But that you look at, you know, water under the bridge, folks.
Marc:But boy, sometimes when I'm at a wedding, I'm just like, wow, I blew it.
Marc:I blew it.
Marc:And there's no unblowing it.
Marc:Lucky I didn't do a toast.
Marc:I don't think that's a great way to open a toast.
Marc:Hey, I don't want to make this about me, but God damn it, did I fuck my life up when it comes to relationships.
Marc:You know, just not great at them.
Marc:Fucked up a couple.
Marc:One ended tragically.
Marc:And here I am on the other side of it.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I mean, I'm okay.
Marc:Yeah, we're okay.
Marc:But yeah, I opted out of the toast.
Marc:But God, what a lovely wedding.
Marc:Lovely friends, and they did it exactly the way they wanted to do it.
Marc:They're both creative people, just beautiful.
Marc:And I'm thrilled for them.
Marc:I cried.
Marc:I danced a little.
Marc:Haven't danced in a while.
Marc:Did a little dancing.
Marc:Yeah, I can move.
Marc:I can do it.
Marc:You know, I'm not great, but I can shuffle a little bit.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the car is back.
Marc:The wedding was great.
Marc:Here's what I was going to tell you about, though.
Marc:Look, I like when I nail something.
Marc:I like when I feel like I did a good job creatively.
Marc:I like when I do a new joke or I find something on stage I didn't find before.
Marc:I like the feeling of that.
Marc:I like when I play guitar well.
Marc:All the creative stuff I do...
Marc:When something new happens or I nail it and I'm open enough to appreciate that, that feels good.
Marc:Feels good.
Marc:Yeah, I'll admit it.
Marc:You know, of course it does.
Marc:You would think that's why you do what you do.
Marc:If you do anything you do, it doesn't have to be creative, whatever it is.
Marc:If you do a good job.
Marc:You feel good if you're like, yeah, I nailed that fucking thing.
Marc:But, you know, I'm starting to find sometimes it's not has nothing to do with creativity.
Marc:I like I do like I like to I mean, I hear here.
Marc:Here's what I think I've talked a little bit about this.
Marc:But, you know, sometimes when you solve a problem in your life.
Marc:Aren't you impressed with your ability that you figured something out or you you tried to make it, you know, in a moment, you're like, I'm going to handle it this way.
Marc:And it turns out to be the right way to handle it.
Marc:It's great, right?
Marc:Because I do all my own shit.
Marc:I don't have an assistant.
Marc:You know, I just I do all my own shit.
Marc:Really?
Marc:People are like, why don't you have an assistant?
Marc:I'm like, what would I do with my life?
Marc:The life I live is the life I live.
Marc:My creativity is that.
Marc:But I still got it.
Marc:I'm going to do my own laundry.
Marc:I'm going to water my own plants.
Marc:I'm going to drive myself places.
Marc:I'm going to manage all my media.
Marc:Well, actually, I don't manage my social media anymore.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:because there's no win in that one but i just like to do the shit in my life that that humans do cook you know regular stuff i don't need an assistant but here's like here a couple things happened all right and this is just about my life right so i've got this coffee grinder this burr grinder
Marc:And, you know, it's a good one.
Marc:I think it's a Baratza.
Marc:Baratza Encore.
Marc:Yeah, I drink coffee every day.
Marc:And, you know, this is a burr grinder.
Marc:That's the best kind of grinder you can get.
Marc:You can grind it precisely from fine to coarse.
Marc:But at some point, my burr grinder was just grinding one grind, and it wasn't particularly good.
Marc:It was inconsistent.
Marc:It was too big.
Marc:It was too coarse.
Marc:And no matter how much I switched the—I varied the grind knob—
Marc:Thing.
Marc:Same thing.
Marc:Same thing.
Marc:And I'm upset about it.
Marc:I've got some money saved up.
Marc:I think there's an argument to be made.
Marc:Like, well, fuck it.
Marc:Just get rid of it.
Marc:Get another one.
Marc:Stop worrying about it.
Marc:But no, I'm going to look on YouTube.
Marc:What's up with this?
Marc:Turns out there's a gasket in there or something that...
Marc:is in the plastic piece, a ring, that things get broken off of it for a reason.
Marc:You know, rock gets in there, whatever.
Marc:And if you replace it, it'll fix it.
Marc:And I'm like, well, there you go.
Marc:Look what we've done here.
Marc:We have a solution.
Marc:But the thing about me, because I'm relatively untethered spiritually, is that I order these things, and I order two of those rings, just in case it happens again, right?
Marc:And then I'm back up in Vancouver, and...
Marc:This is before I left.
Marc:I had another month on the shoot.
Marc:And if I were to tell you that I spent 80% of my mind just thinking about fixing that coffee grinder, just thinking about getting home and getting those plastic rings and fucking fixing that thing and getting the grind right,
Marc:That would be generous.
Marc:A lot of I just it was like my salvation.
Marc:It was like my hope.
Marc:It was how I was staying centered.
Marc:When I get home, I'm going to fix that coffee grinder and I'm going to have the grind that I need, the fine grind for the cone.
Marc:I just thought about all the time when I got home and I fix that thing and it worked.
Marc:I was like, holy shit.
Marc:This is amazing.
Marc:Where is my award?
Marc:Look what I've done.
Marc:Look at that grind.
Marc:Where is the standing ovation?
Marc:It was so satisfying.
Marc:And it happened again.
Marc:I'm driving back from Culver City.
Marc:I'd driven all the way to Culver City.
Marc:And I live in the east side.
Marc:I live on the east side.
Marc:And you really try to avoid going to the west side at all.
Marc:Because, you know, some parties are like, should I just fucking get a room?
Marc:It's going to take me an hour and a half to get back.
Marc:So I'm driving back.
Marc:This is another one of those things where it was so rewarding to
Marc:I'm driving back and I'm about an hour into this traffic shit show.
Marc:And the panel on my car, everything starts going wrong.
Marc:Barking brake, fucked.
Marc:Front collision camera, fucked.
Marc:Check engine, engine fucked.
Marc:And the engine's cutting out and everything.
Marc:It's just like, it's just, everything's going.
Marc:And I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:Do I pull over?
Marc:What am I doing here?
Marc:It's not accelerating right.
Marc:I can't turn the lights off.
Marc:They're all fucking going.
Marc:But, you know, it's still running.
Marc:So I drive it.
Marc:I make it home.
Marc:And I'm like, Jesus Christ.
Marc:But I get home and I think, like, wait a minute, dude.
Marc:How can all these things be going wrong?
Marc:It doesn't seem possible, you know, that all of these things would go wrong.
Marc:So I'm like, dude, just unplug the car.
Marc:Like, you know, when you turn a car off and it's one of these newer cars with a full computer system in, it's not going to reboot itself.
Marc:Just fucking unhook the battery.
Marc:Get under the hood.
Marc:Unhook the battery.
Marc:And let it sit for 10 minutes.
Marc:Hook it back up.
Marc:See if you can reboot this thing.
Marc:Because there's no way all those things are fucked up.
Marc:So I take the cables off the battery and I hook it up, back up.
Marc:About 20 minutes later, I turn it on and problem solved.
Marc:Again, where are the people to celebrate me?
Marc:Look what I did.
Marc:That was a pretty amazing bit of thinking and a sort of inspired bit of troubleshooting.
Marc:I want a certificate.
Marc:I want a prize.
Marc:So satisfying.
Marc:I mean, between that and the coffee grinder, I mean, my God, what a month it's been.
Marc:And then I start to realize, well, if this is what's really making you happy, more so than any of your creative outlets, maybe you should rethink your life.
Marc:Maybe I should be an assistant.
Marc:Maybe I should, that's what I should do.
Marc:Just be one, you know, just an assistant to somebody.
Marc:Hey, can you get that coffee machine checked out?
Marc:I'll try to fix it myself.
Marc:That's my job.
Marc:Maybe I guess so everybody could hire me, you know?
Marc:Maybe Josh Brolin needs an assistant.
Marc:But then that'd be difficult.
Marc:He'd be like, hey, Mark, can you saddle up the horse?
Marc:You know I can't, Josh.
Marc:I can't saddle up the horse.
Marc:You got to get your saddle guy to do that.
Marc:But...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:These little things, folks, these little things, you know, like the other day I woke up and I'm like, I feel pretty good.
Marc:What's that about?
Marc:I'm just having a good day.
Marc:And I remembered like, maybe it's just because that coffee's ground.
Marc:Just right.
Marc:Got you going just the right way.
Marc:Either way.
Marc:It's all connected, man.
Marc:I guess that's the point.
Marc:It's all connected.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look.
Marc:Sebastian Stan is here.
Marc:He's in two movies right now.
Marc:The A24 film, A Different Man, is now playing in theaters.
Marc:And The Apprentice opens in theaters this Friday, October 11th.
Marc:It's a Donald Trump movie.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:It's very specific.
Marc:It's one of these poetic little periods in time.
Marc:It's really about...
Marc:Roy Cohn and how he created the monster that we know.
Marc:But I'd never met Sebastian before, and this is me and him talking for the first time.
Marc:I always feel like it's a little more sterile.
Marc:And I've taken things that were randomly around the old garage, which look out of context now, but before they were just part of a lot of clutter.
Marc:But now because they're singular, people are like, what does this mean?
Marc:What is with this hammer?
Marc:I'm not sure I can explain everything.
Marc:Well, the dice looks good.
Marc:Yeah, the dice, you know, it's just some fun thing.
Marc:I don't know where they came from.
Marc:There was a lot more...
Marc:clutter in the old place and somehow like this is like a fan made this you know for me with the cat and the WTF you know it's great yeah it's kind of stuff like that I uh hold on a minute I'm like painfully addicted to nicotine right now well listen if it's not that then uh it's probably something else I guess yeah that's for sure I'm assuming this water's okay yeah go ahead Connie Chung didn't want it you can have it
Marc:She sat there yesterday, and I got her the water.
Guest:Connie Chung.
Marc:Connie Chung was sitting right there.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:So what?
Marc:Were you a nicotine addict?
Guest:I did smoke cigarettes for about 16 years.
Guest:What kind?
Guest:I think by the end.
Guest:Well, for a while, there was that Marlboro 27s.
Marc:Oh, so you started late.
Marc:You're younger than me.
Marc:Like when I was younger, it was a Marlboro box or the Marlboro soft pack.
Marc:And then I remember when the lights came out.
Marc:So by the time you're smoking marbles, they had all kinds of interesting branding going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:And then, and then it was, okay, it's going to be American spirits because that's healthy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the yellow ones never had enough.
Guest:You didn't feel enough of the thing.
Guest:So then I went to blue.
Guest:Did you get the thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The blue?
Marc:Did you feel enough of the thing with the blue?
Marc:The hit, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that was good.
Guest:But I was also never, I was never like a morning coffee cigarette person, which I know those people.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I actually dreaded the first cigarette.
Guest:So then for a while I thought, why am I even smoking?
Guest:You dreaded it because it felt bad?
Guest:Well, the first one was always, you know, you get dizzy, you get weird.
Guest:And then I had to get to the second one quickly so that I could normalize for the rest of the day.
Marc:These are addict responsibilities.
Marc:We have a system.
Marc:You got to have a system.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I'm fucking 60 and I'm still hooked on nicotine one way or the other.
Marc:I haven't smoked in a long time.
Marc:But, you know, these things and whatever.
Guest:Yeah, I guess I quit in 2016, and then you did the rolling cigarettes because you thought that was going to— Oh, you did that like what?
Marc:Like drum?
Guest:Like old school?
Guest:Drum, yeah, with the filter and everything.
Guest:But I've always liked working out, and then when I started to see it kind of slow me down, I was like, okay, this is— Fuck it.
Guest:Nothing to replace it?
Guest:More working out?
Guest:No, I mean—
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:And I never, you know, I didn't do the vaping and the thing that these people do now.
Marc:No, no vaping.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Marc:I don't know where it comes from.
Marc:I don't know what it is.
Marc:But chewing tobacco people do, and I never did that.
Marc:Well, this is like, these are non-tobacco nicotine pouches.
Marc:I think it's just a little sachet of wood pulp soaked in nicotine.
Guest:Yummy.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:The only time I still get a thing is when you're on set, right?
Guest:Because you would wait, and it would be something.
Guest:I remember going and waiting in front of auditions and getting there, looking at the sides and having a cigarette, like, okay.
Guest:Yeah, focus.
Guest:So now I just use Listerine spray.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Does that work?
Guest:Before the take.
Guest:Weirdly, it kind of sets my mind in the...
Marc:It's a little ritual.
Marc:Something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So, now, I don't know, like here, I'll put this out right at the beginning.
Marc:I don't know anything.
Marc:Don't worry.
Marc:No, I don't know anything about Marvel.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Zero.
Marc:Zero.
Marc:I know you're very popular in it.
Marc:People love you.
Marc:It's an important part, this fella, Bucky Barnes, the Winter Soldier guy.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, 15 years.
Guest:Of Bucky Barnes.
Guest:He's been around.
Guest:How many movies?
Guest:God, I think it was six.
Guest:So that's a big deal.
Marc:That's a nice job.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah i mean i yeah it was very i was very lucky to have something to return to um yeah but you're one of those i mean i imagine you're one i just talked to elizabeth olsen right i just heard it yeah who has a smaller uh role in the marvel universe but with that comes the marvel universe people who love it
Marc:Right.
Marc:So extreme, extreme fans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you have.
Marc:So I would assume that I have extreme fandom.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So it's hard to walk down the street in some places.
Guest:Well, you know, weirdly, it is.
Guest:Yeah, it is sometimes.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:In New York, I still somehow get away with it.
Guest:I mean, I just I mean, people film you that where you live.
Guest:A lot of the time, yeah.
Guest:New York, yeah.
Guest:But it's been a bit of bi-coastal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And L.A., obviously, you're more isolated, which isn't necessarily a good thing, as you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, in order to walk around people, you have to make a day of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You have to go somewhere.
Marc:In New York, you just walk outside.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:There's always this plan that has to happen here, which is annoying.
Guest:But, yeah, and so I do that, and sometimes people will still come up, obviously, and sometimes they'll just not notice.
Guest:It's New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And some people are cool, but I just don't know about that.
Marc:Like, my fans are, you know, I'm kind of a boutique act.
Marc:So, like, a lot of times in New York, especially because of the podcast, not necessarily the comedy, you know, people will be walking by with earphones on.
Marc:They'll be like...
Marc:Right now.
Marc:I'm listening to you right now.
Guest:But I feel like you probably, I feel like you would have some extreme, you know, has anyone ever showed up at your house?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay, me too.
Guest:Those are interesting experiences.
Guest:The most interesting thing about it is you can't do anything about it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:You just say, which I did once.
Guest:Hey, listen, this is nice, but I've seen you twice now.
Guest:And yeah, maybe the third time I might have to, I don't know, tell someone.
Marc:Yeah, you can tell somebody.
Marc:But because I've had a situation where, you know, someone was parking in front of my house and just spending the evening there.
Marc:Literally just, you know, watching movies, hanging out.
Marc:That's scary.
Marc:And they were putting gifts on my... You know, and they... The first time that they showed up, they actually rang my doorbell and was like, Hey, I just... I saw your tweet.
Marc:I thought I... And it was one of those things where I...
Marc:I was like, it's not great.
Marc:This is not cool.
Marc:This is not comfortable.
Guest:It's a little creepy.
Guest:Well, it's like the thing about LA is you have these windows and all these doors.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:At least in New York, you got one.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And sometimes you're three or four floors up.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it was this whole process where eventually you're like, you know, what is my recourse on this?
Marc:And if they're not on your property, there's very little that you can do except wait it out and hope nothing bad happens.
Marc:I mean, do you order Postmates and then— Get sent it out to them?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have a little something to eat?
Marc:Eventually, you know, they go away, hopefully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's interesting, right?
Guest:It's a blessing and a curse.
Guest:I mean, I don't—there's also some beautiful people who are so supportive—
Marc:Well, I think what happens is parasocial relationships.
Marc:Especially when I do this, because I reveal and talk about myself so often, I think that some people's relationship with me is fairly intimate.
Marc:So a lot of my fans, they know that, and they know it's one-sided, and they're all very good people.
Marc:You get a couple of mentally ill people, and they're around us all the time.
Marc:I'm not sure I'm not one of them.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, and actually, sometimes you probably speak openly and candidly as you do, and sometimes people feel closer to you because of that.
Guest:That's right, that's it.
Marc:Yeah, and I understand that.
Guest:But your character in Marvel is not, you don't have that kind of intimate relationship with... Well, the thing about the character is that he actually, you know, had a lot of kind of emotional and mental baggage that he overcomes, and he has to...
Guest:make peace with his past.
Guest:So there's a lot of people that relate.
Guest:He is.
Guest:A lot of people, especially vets, for instance, have come up to me and they tell me that the characters help them deal with depression or even addiction or PTSD.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:It is.
Guest:So from that standpoint, it's very... Those are the best kind of...
Marc:of feedback.
Marc:It's the best kind of feedback.
Marc:Like, you know, because I get emails through the website and they're like, you helped me get sober.
Marc:You know, I was in a dark time.
Marc:You helped me through that.
Marc:And you don't even know when you're doing it that that's what you're doing.
Marc:It's not your intention.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're not a motivational speaker.
Marc:No, but somehow you end up becoming one.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:When you do Comic Cons and stuff, how do you approach that?
Well,
Guest:Well, I've always been very open about my own struggles in a way because I felt it's what keeps me connected to the planet, right?
Guest:I mean, I'm like, dude, I don't have it figured out.
Guest:I'm trying to do this as best as I can as everybody else.
Guest:And for the most part, I think that's helped, I think, kind of people in a way.
Guest:But yeah, I try to speak openly about that.
Guest:About yourself.
Yeah.
Guest:About my kind of struggles.
Marc:And that's also good for extreme fans to sort of get a sense of you.
Guest:Yes, but I also have realized that sometimes when you want to kind of...
Guest:branch out of that um you can't because because they they stole you know like i had somebody come up to me on the street one time and then and they did and they the intention was good right right but i didn't know how to deal with it because they came up and they said hey are you okay i just want to make sure you're okay i i just i just want to make sure you're okay and i was like i'm really okay yeah
Marc:Were they talking about the character?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:But I think what the internet and social media really has done.
Guest:And I'm off of that now.
Guest:I had to get out of it because I couldn't believe the sort of...
Guest:kind of like a gap between the real world and, and sort of this make believe reality that was happening on social media for people, even as it pertains to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just, I was like, this is too much.
Marc:It was, you didn't, it was exhausting you and it's upsetting if you, you were locking into it too much because it can become kind of compulsive.
Guest:Well, I've always prouded myself to be, I think, an honest person.
Guest:When I was on there, I really wanted to speak openly, and I did, honestly, about everything.
Guest:On Instagram and whatnot?
Guest:That was the only one I had.
Guest:But then I've noticed that it didn't really matter anymore because whatever my truth was, as long as it didn't align with other people's ideas of me, then it didn't even matter.
Guest:And then I thought, well, I'm now...
Guest:caught in this thing where, where I'm, I might be part of something that's not true or a fake version of myself.
Guest:And I don't want to do that anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It gets confusing.
Marc:Well, that's that parasocial relationship.
Marc:They've decided that they know you.
Marc:And that even when you're saying that's not me, they're like, no, he is not, you're really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and, and I just don't, I don't think it's healthy to read stuff good or bad actually about yourself.
Guest:And so I've kind of stopped doing that as a result.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I mean, I'll read like any good old Samaritan.
Guest:I'll read reviews.
Guest:I'll read obviously like if there's work involved.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because that's – like I find that if you read a review of your performance and whatever or of a comedy special or whatever for me, that if the person is smart –
Marc:Like if you respect their intellect, that sometimes it can be helpful and at least give you a different side of what you did.
Marc:And I've read reviews where I'm like, wow, I never thought of it that way.
Marc:And that's a good point.
Guest:That's very interesting.
Guest:I mean, I've thought of it this way.
Guest:Like, if you have, and you know how, I mean, these comedy specials, I can't imagine how much work goes into it.
Guest:It's so personal, right?
Guest:You're putting your heart out there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's human to want to see if the idea has landed on the person or not.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I think it comes from that place.
Guest:But I also do feel like that could be bad in itself.
Guest:I just don't know if I believe when people are like, oh, I don't read reviews.
Guest:I'm like, I think if you care about the work and you care about- You're going to read them.
Guest:Well, I think you're interested to know or somebody else tells you about it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think that the people that have those kind of boundaries and are really able to detach from it, they're probably better off.
Marc:But I think that if you're reading the reviews for whatever reason, there is some fundamental insecurity.
Marc:You know, that you that you want either reaffirmed or sadly, sometimes no, sadly reaffirmed.
Marc:You're thinking like, I just want to see an outside perspective of this.
Marc:But as soon as like, no matter what they say, that's good.
Marc:The one thing that they kind of.
Marc:That's what you hang on.
Marc:You're like, oh, I fucking knew it.
Marc:It's the one negative thing.
Guest:And that's like a very, I read, that's like a very actual human brain like thing that we write for survival.
Guest:We're more programmed to look, focus on the negative.
Guest:To be vigilant, to be ready.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then actually if you read something good, then you're like, oh shit, now I'm fucked.
Guest:Now I've got to, I got to like somehow keep this up.
Guest:Live up to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that in itself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like when you say you try to be open about your struggles, what's your primary struggle?
Marc:I mean, we can go back.
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:I mean, I think, you know, like, I mean, I, you know, I didn't grow up in this country.
Guest:I had a lot of, I had a very kind of, I wouldn't say turbulent childhood.
Marc:Where was it?
Marc:It was where you grew up in Romania?
Guest:I was born in Romania, but I moved a lot.
Guest:So you're Romanian.
Yeah.
Guest:By originally, yes, by birth.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, and I've lived there.
Guest:How much did you cut off of your name?
Guest:None of it, believe it or not.
Guest:I know everyone's like, I'm not like Stanislavski, which is Russian, but none of it.
Marc:But Sebastian also is sort of not really an American name.
Guest:Yes, but my mom's a pianist, and my father's name was Stan.
Guest:That was his last name.
Guest:And in Romania, when you address a person by their full name, you actually address them with the last name first.
Guest:So in Romania, I'd be addressed as Stan Sebastian.
Guest:So she wanted to get a name that would go with Stan, and then she thought of Johann Sebastian Bach because of the thing.
Guest:That's how I ended up with it.
Guest:So you grew up with piano in the house?
Guest:I did, and then we moved to Vienna for four years.
Guest:Vienna?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Vienna, Austria.
Guest:How are your memories of this stuff?
Guest:Um, certain memories, certain memories, but not, you know, um, I mean, I can't tell you what I was doing on a Tuesday in 1993, but, but, uh, fairly good.
Guest:I mean, but again, like I didn't get to the States until 95 when I was 12.
Guest:And then even then I would move households and schools cause I didn't speak German.
Guest:I got just thrown into a German public school when I was in America in Vienna when I was nine and
Guest:So and I was just trying to survive.
Guest:So I guess like what I'm saying is I've always had to kind of search for my identity in a way or search for, you know, kind of and having this unsettling feeling about, you know, how you fit being good enough or is this enough?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so and so I've talked about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was your father, were they running from the, what was his name, Ceaușescu?
Guest:Yeah, my father actually left.
Guest:So I had a stepfather as well who was a big part of my life.
Guest:But my father, yeah, my parents grew up in that generation that was standing up to Ceaușescu and communism in Romania.
Guest:And so they had to leave.
Yeah.
Guest:My father left early on.
Guest:My parents had divorced when I was three.
Guest:Was he in the government?
Guest:No, he was not in the government.
Guest:He was actually quite a hero in some small circles.
Guest:Oh yeah, for what?
Guest:For standing up?
Guest:Well, he was also helping people leave the country.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Illegally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was not, obviously, what was happening at the time.
Guest:But he had left early, early on.
Guest:Because he saw it coming?
Guest:Mid-80s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then my mom and I didn't leave until after the revolution in 91.
Guest:Did you have trouble getting out?
No.
Guest:Well, when the revolution happened, and you talk about memories, right?
Guest:So I remember that very vividly, like watching on television, Ceausescu and his wife being shot and killed.
Guest:And this car blazing through the street with a giant hole in the middle of the flag, which they had cut out that communist symbol.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was chaos after that.
Guest:I mean, no one knew how to, you know, function, basically.
Guest:A lot of, and actually a lot of families had sent their kids out to find jobs and food and things like that.
Guest:So you ended up with a giant orphan kind of...
Guest:population that was a thing the romanian orphans yeah there's a documentary about it and so that so there was chaos after the revolution and my mom had been a pianist and she got an opportunity to go and and and play piano and in the one of the greatest musical uh capitals of the world vienna yeah and then she took it and then she came back and took me about a year and a half later i was with i so i lived with my grandparents for a while
Guest:So I had a lot of abandonment in my life.
Guest:So what I'm saying is, and that's why I've gone through my own kind of being like, how the fuck am I going to use this and come out of this and not let this fucking destroy me?
Marc:Well, it's interesting because whatever the abandonment thing is, whether it's emotional or actual, you do sort of like, I just have this theory in terms of how I think about myself, is that I don't think myself was developed.
Marc:You know, because of whatever my parents are, you know, their boundaries or whatever.
Marc:But I do think that not only with moving and everything else, when your dad splits and even though you got a stepdad and there's all this chaos, you don't really know how you fit or what your place is or who you are on some level.
Guest:No, because I think we come into this world as blank canvases, right?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Well, as babies.
Marc:Yeah, but within a week or two, your parents start to put shit on the canvas.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Like you're already, like there's the narratives, there's the trauma, there's the thing that we inherit.
Guest:And then I guess if you have a chemical disposition to go with that, then maybe you are a sociopath.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, there's the whole the whole thing about wiring, you know, in terms of, you know, I'm doing material about it now that like if you grow up a certain way and if it's not particularly good, you're wired for that and you'll attract that.
Marc:So then you have to make decisions in your life where it's sort of like, I can't know.
Marc:It's a red flag.
Marc:I know it feels good, but I can't do it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think of it as like you're always trying to get ahead of the shadow.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The shadow is coming with you, right?
Guest:The Jungian shadow?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're trying to make sure you're either in step with it or ahead of it before it gets there.
Marc:Before it takes over?
Guest:Right.
Marc:And so you've been evading it through characters.
Right.
Guest:For a lot of your life.
Guest:I think that might be the reason why anything creative is probably the best therapy for all of us.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Get me out of me.
Marc:Please, please get me out.
Marc:This seems good.
Marc:I can be this guy for a while.
Marc:So is your dad still around?
Guest:No, both, both of my dad and my stepdad have passed.
Guest:Your mom?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom is around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:God, God, God willing.
Guest:God bless.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Only child.
Guest:So, so she's, uh, and you know, yeah, she's, she's all I got.
Guest:She must be excited.
Guest:She's very excited.
Guest:She's very excited.
Guest:She, she thinks I'm aging very quickly, but of course, of course, because that means she is, and it's hard to take.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
Marc:But she's, yeah, she's proud and happy.
Marc:And she now, like, does she have a Romanian accent and everything?
Guest:Fully, the biggest one.
Guest:And the thing is this, like, when we first came to America, the communist mentality, like, followed her, you know?
Guest:It was like, don't tell anybody where we're from.
Guest:Don't tell anybody.
Guest:So we would go to a restaurant, and, like, we'd be sitting there, and she'd be ordering food in, like, this thick Romanian accent.
Guest:And the waiter, very nicely, would be like, oh, where are you from?
Guest:And she'd be like, from here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'd have to awkwardly stand there and just kind of be like, oh my God, why can't we just say where we're from?
Guest:But it was only years later when I became a teenager that... The fortunate thing is she never stopped speaking to me in Romanian, so I actually still speak it as a result of that.
Guest:And then I could be like, okay, I should be proud of this.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, it's interesting.
Marc:I have no sense of Romania.
Marc:What kind of foods...
Marc:did you grow up with i mean you know it's the it's your it's your meat and potatoes yeah sauerkraut oh yeah kraut yeah yeah that kind of stuff you know uh a lot of pork yeah sausage sausages yeah yeah um wrapped cabbage yeah are there like stuffed cabbage stuffed cabbage yeah yeah are there like are there like um pierogies involved that's ukrainian are there there's some sort of romanian dumpling of some sort
Guest:There are those, and there's like these weird crepes that you do with jam and stuff.
Guest:And your mom cooks like that or no?
Guest:She does, yeah, yeah.
Guest:She still does.
Guest:Every Christmas, it's still a big... Big Romanian feast?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you have family there still in Romania?
Guest:No.
Guest:My grandparents passed.
Guest:I have friends, but pretty much everybody that was in our life at the time is sort of gone, yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So when you get to the States, you start where?
Guest:Jersey?
Guest:Jersey.
Guest:Rockin County.
Guest:My stepfather was the headmaster of a high school that I went to.
Guest:Is he Romanian?
Guest:No, he was American.
Guest:And that was a big, big reason why I was able to learn and kind of lose the accent.
Guest:Because he was the headmaster of the school you were at?
Guest:Well, he came.
Guest:So my parents ran in Vienna and he came into my life about 10.
Guest:So I started to really learn English when I was 10.
Guest:And it's a kind of a crucial age for sure to still learn.
Guest:So still in Vienna.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we moved from from there to Rockin County where that's New York, right?
Guest:Yeah, about like half an hour outside of the city.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And he took a job.
Marc:That's why he went there to be a... Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was hired to be the headmaster of this school.
Guest:And then it was a great school.
Guest:It was a small, like liberal arts kind of like high school and, you know, where you were like on a...
Guest:first name basis with the with the teacher right right sure it was but and and it was great because there weren't there were only 120 kids pre-k through senior i had like 12 kids in my class and so you would be encouraged to do everything go do theater go do beyond school what a blessing paper yeah and your mom was an artist and my mom was a pianist well yeah but i mean so there was none of that kind of like what are you doing with your life thing um
Guest:No.
Guest:And she had tried to get me into acting even in Vienna, and I just didn't really want to get into it.
Guest:But she was, I think her support and her understanding was a big piece.
Guest:How old were you when she tried to get you into acting?
Guest:Like nine?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, actually.
Guest:Yeah, she took me to this TV show that Michael Haneke was doing in Vienna, and I hated it.
Guest:It was a nightmare.
Guest:It was like, this is... What, just to be a kid?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just, I think it's hard when you're, and sometimes I look at kids that, you know, end up being child actors and I could see why they have this weird relationship with, with it because it becomes a chore.
Guest:And I think when you're a kid, you don't want it to be a chore.
Guest:You want it to be fun.
Guest:You want it to be, and you want to be a kid.
Guest:You want to be a kid, you know?
Marc:Well, you avoided that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You shut that down.
Marc:But then it came back around.
Marc:How does it come back around?
Marc:Nine, you drew a line, I'm not an actor.
Marc:And then when, how old were you when you're like, ah, I am?
Guest:High school, I had some friends that were auditioning for a school play, The Importance of Being Earnest.
Guest:And then I joined the next play.
Guest:And then I went to a theater camp, very much like the movie theater camp, called Stage Room Manor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For what, a month?
Guest:Like a couple weeks during the summer, and it was this magical, incredible place.
Guest:You got to do musicals and plays.
Marc:When was the last time you did a musical?
Guest:Not since high school.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:High school.
Guest:West Side Story, I think I did.
Marc:But that's a good sort of entry to be surrounded... Because for me, and I talk about this a lot, I don't go to a lot of musicals, but when I do go, I'm immediately crying.
Marc:Just because people singing, there's some kind of vulnerability to it that just kind of gets me every time.
Marc:That use of the voice, and when there's a lot of people doing it, I'm like, oh my God, I don't even know what they're saying, but I'm all emotional.
Guest:No, I mean, Rent, did you see Rent?
Guest:I didn't see it.
Guest:That was a fucking amazing...
Guest:that did it for you that i was obsessed with that like every kid at the time when that came out yeah yeah yeah yeah but there are some that and i was i mean i'm an okay singer i'm not i shouldn't be doing phantom of the opera right right like yeah i i think i think there's an art to it and not everybody's good at it you know yeah but just like when people use their voice that way i think i was uh i was paralyzed with fear about singing so when people do it i'm like how are they just singing you know
Marc:I've gotten over that.
Marc:I can sing.
Marc:Do you do karaoke ever?
Marc:No, I'm terrified of karaoke.
Marc:But I've recently, you know, because I play guitar my whole life and never really in a band or anything, I started playing with dudes and doing cover songs and just getting over this fear of, because there's something to me that's so vulnerable about singing.
Marc:But people who do it, it's like, no.
Marc:And for me, it's just like, oh, my God, I got to fucking sing.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:It's just scary.
Marc:For me, it's just too, like, it's so easy to fuck up.
Marc:Like, you know, within a second, people are like, oh, he's not nailing it.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or, you know, it's always terrifying when you hear people having like the background tracks and that they're singing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's no good.
Guest:So when do you start like really doing it?
Guest:In college?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, my first job was law and order, like everybody that was on the East Coast.
Guest:And that came my sophomore year.
Guest:Where'd you learn?
Guest:Oh, sophomore year of college?
Guest:Sophomore year of college.
Guest:I went to Rutgers University, basically, after high school.
Guest:New Brunswick?
Guest:New Brunswick.
Guest:Mason Gross.
Guest:My dad went to Rutgers.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, cool.
Guest:I mean, it was a great school, but the program itself was very different than the school.
Guest:It was much more secluded, the theater arts.
Guest:Yeah, I have not heard of the Rutgers Theater Arts Department.
Guest:It was good?
Guest:It was because it had everybody that kind of...
Guest:went to the neighborhood playhouse in the city and came up under meisner had gone on and was teaching there israel hicks from um suny purchase yeah come down and became the uh the director okay and so so it was and it had a year in london at the globe
Guest:that we did um to junior year in college so yeah that was the the benefit of being that close in proximity to new york is you had all these great teachers and actors who were that was that but another very key piece to it for me was when i was at this theater camp i met my manager who i'm still with emily garson sayings and i was 14 and and she saw me in i think greece gave me her theater camp
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Gave me her number and said, when you come back, you know, from at the end of the summer, give me a call.
Guest:You should be going out.
Guest:And I actually lost her number.
Guest:And then she remembered I was working at this movie theater as an usher.
Guest:And then she called the movie theater.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:She was really on you.
Guest:She was like, this is kids good.
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:And so and then so she started sending me out.
Guest:So I was going out on auditions while I was finishing high school.
Guest:And I wanted to go.
Guest:At that point, I was like, I'm going to the city.
Guest:I want to be this.
Guest:I want to do that.
Guest:And she actually was like, no, you need to go to college.
Guest:You need to get an education.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:I got into Rutgers.
Guest:And then I remember the first job I got was that Law & Order with Jerry Orbach and Jesse L. Martin.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So did you go four years college?
Guest:I did.
Marc:So you got the whole thing.
Marc:I did, yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:That helped out, I guess.
Marc:At least you got that under your belt.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it was a magical place.
Guest:I think it was good.
Guest:I mean, I don't know how you feel.
Guest:I think there was great value about not getting too successful too quickly.
Guest:Yeah, I'm still in that.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I hold on to that.
Marc:I don't think it was ever an intention, but now it's a good rationalization.
Marc:I don't want to rush it.
Marc:I'm 60.
Marc:It's just starting to happen.
Marc:It might just be something we accept about ourselves.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:At some point, you kind of have to.
Marc:It's got to be like, if you get rejected enough, you got to at least say like, well, you know, I'm doing what I do.
Marc:Eventually they'll come around.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:I'm always like Harrison Ford.
Guest:Harrison Ford was a carpenter forever.
Guest:Right.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:And then Star Wars.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My heroes have to keep getting older and older.
Marc:You know, at some point it was this.
Marc:And then like, well, Rodney Dangerfield, he was like 60 something.
Marc:I love Rodney Dangerfield.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's great.
Guest:But but so the law and order thing that gets you going.
Guest:That got me going.
Guest:And then every summer, basically, I would come into Manhattan and then I would do catering and I would work in restaurants and I would just go out.
Guest:And then I sort of, when I got out of school in 2005, I moved to the city right away.
Guest:And then I was working as a waiter, basically.
Guest:And then I started to book...
Guest:Things here and there.
Guest:And then obviously Marvel really happened.
Guest:Well, before that was the show Gossip Girl.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was a big show.
Guest:It was a big show at the time in the city.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that helped.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you didn't do your first movie until... The first movie I worked on was actually in 2005 when I graduated and it had...
Guest:incredible actors in it, like Isabella Rossellini and Viola Davis.
Guest:Which movie?
Guest:The Architect.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you're working with... Was your part big?
Guest:I had a good part, yeah.
Guest:Like, I was Anthony Lepaglia's son.
Guest:It was a pretty decent part, and it was sort of about... I think it took place in Chicago at the time, and it was about class systems, and it was really intricate, but unfortunately not a lot of people saw it.
Guest:And then...
Guest:There was a couple other things I kind of booked and loved at the time.
Guest:You were with Jonathan Demme?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Before he passed?
Guest:Not too long, right?
Guest:Twice, actually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He saw me in a play.
Guest:I did this play on Broadway called Talk Radio with Leo Shriver.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:You know, that was the Eric Bogosian thing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Which character did you play?
Marc:The little rock guy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Michael Wincott is the one in the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He comes to the studio and he's like, hey, man.
Marc:You played that guy?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:With Liev?
Marc:With Liev.
Marc:A young Liev?
Marc:Liev was 38 at the time.
Marc:Oh, already.
Marc:Because I just was in a movie, this Jude Law movie that's coming.
Marc:I played the guy that it's based on.
Marc:I played Alan Berg.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:The actual Denver talk radio guy who was assassinated, who was shot down by the Order, the domestic terrorist group.
Marc:Are you in the Order?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, I can't wait to see them.
Marc:Briefly.
Marc:I, you know, I, I opened the movie on the mic as that guy and then I'm gunned down in my driveway.
Marc:It was like three, three days of work and, you know, I'd never done squibs before.
Marc:So that was kind of interesting, you know, to get the blowing up of the blood and stuff.
Marc:And, but it was funny because I don't know, it was one of these things where they're like, we only got two jackets.
Marc:We got to, we got to get it.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We got to get this right.
Marc:You got to go down correctly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's one of my favorite directors, Justin Kruzel.
Marc:Yeah, he's a very interesting guy, man.
Marc:He's intense.
Marc:And I'd like to interview him for the movie.
Marc:Like I said, it's not a huge part, but it's an important part because it was really what put them on the map, was gunning this guy down.
Marc:And it was before talk radio was a political thing.
Marc:So he was really just this personality who was political but also very publicly Jewish.
Marc:And they just chose that guy.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:And when the opera came in, because of what I do and what my past is in terms of these mics, and they're like, they want you to play Alan Berg in this movie.
Marc:I'm like, do you want to do it?
Guest:I'm like, who else is going to do it?
Guest:But did you think about the guy eating french fries outside of your house in the middle of the night?
Guest:No, it wasn't a guy, but...
Marc:OK, so I think her intentions were different than possibly kill.
Marc:But you never know who's going to gun you down.
Marc:But but nonetheless, I thought, like, you know, it's an interesting little part.
Marc:And, you know, I've been doing some acting and I'm trying to figure out why I whether I like it or not.
Marc:So like there were just like, and I looked enough like him.
Marc:I had a beard and I was able to sort of manufacture a look.
Marc:And though he lived in Colorado, he had a slight Midwestern kind of accent thing.
Marc:So I tried to get that in there.
Marc:So anytime I do any acting, I'm like, did I, did I do that?
Marc:Did the choices come off?
Guest:Can you see it?
Guest:I feel like that's never going to go away.
Guest:No matter what, how big the thing, or if it's Spielberg, it's, it's all, it's going to be there.
Guest:That's, but that's, but that's the only thing that makes it interesting, right?
Guest:Um,
Guest:I think we have to keep seeking always.
Guest:And I think that's that's if you're if you're going into that day and you and you walk away and you're and you feel like, oh, yeah, I just home run that thing.
Guest:I think you probably missed something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, so tell me about Demi.
Guest:Like, what was that experience?
Guest:Well, he was incredible because, you know, he saw me in that play and he was like, I'm doing this movie with Anne Hathaway and I don't have a part for you, but I'll just figure something out.
Guest:And so he put me at the beginning of the movie as sort of this weird patient, I think, when she comes out of rehab or something.
Guest:I love that movie, actually.
Guest:I love her.
Guest:It was awesome, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was so—and he brought me later on.
Guest:He was like, I don't know, but you should be in this movie again, like, later as a different character.
Guest:And I was like, really?
Guest:And he put me in the wedding sequence.
Guest:But it was amazing because he shot this wedding—like, a wedding.
Guest:It was—we had, you know, from 6 p.m.
Guest:until midnight.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was very fluid and all-natural.
Guest:And, I mean, here's the guy who did, right, Philadelphia?
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Something wild.
Guest:Silence of the Lambs.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so he actually set a precedent for me because I thought, apropos to what you just said, there's no small parts.
Guest:There's no small actors, only small parts.
Guest:But I said, okay, it doesn't matter what I'm doing in these movies, even if it's one scene.
Guest:I'm going to try and keep working with people that...
Guest:are way ahead of me.
Guest:So I'm chasing them, you know?
Guest:And so from there, I kind of did little parts and, you know, like a movie with a black Swan with Aronofsky was one scene.
Guest:Crazy movie.
Guest:Which scene were you in?
Guest:Were you a dancer?
Guest:I wish I would have been a ballerina.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I was in the scene with Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis when they're going dancing, like taking drugs.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it was a, I mean, I was like, I can't believe I'm going to work with these, you know, this is my job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I tried to always surround myself with the right people, you know, that I could learn from and kind of just keep going.
Guest:And he started that with me.
Marc:But, like, at what point were—you know, because I'm going to talk about acting a bit because I have to ask some specific questions.
Marc:But at what point—
Marc:You know, because it seems to me that with the acting, you know, however you're going to come to a place where you can work from for a character, you know, once you put that in place and you're making sort of, you know, choices that will define the role, you know, that are very conscious, I think.
Marc:Right.
Marc:In terms of when you show up on set and then you do it.
Marc:You're kind of, you know, sort of whatever you've put in place, you know, it's a choice, right?
Marc:I mean, like, I talk to actors and I'm like, you want to lose all that stuff.
Marc:But I find that when you're in it, you kind of got to keep some of it.
Marc:You got to be aware.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think the hardest and trickiest part of all of it is the beginning before you start.
Guest:I think it's the preparation that precedes that day one.
Guest:Because once you start going and you get there, there's all the other actors, there's the director, there's stuff that's happening.
Guest:Basically, you're preparing yourself...
Marc:for lightning to strike right and and you want to be as ready for that as possible while remaining available so what was the first role where you were like you know i've got you know i've got a big responsibility in this movie and you know whatever i put in place it's it's got a it's sort of where the where you really felt like this i've really this is the real work
Guest:I mean, weirdly, I felt like that about everything I was doing at the time.
Guest:I mean, even I had that kind of responsibility and fear and stuff, even with Marvel.
Guest:I mean, there were challenges.
Guest:I mean, as I got older, things evolved more.
Guest:I mean, again, I go back to I, Tonya in 2018 was a really different...
Guest:from stuff I'd done before.
Guest:How so?
Guest:Well, it was a real guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He spoke a certain way.
Guest:He looked very different than me.
Guest:You studied that guy?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I mean, I met him.
Guest:I was obsessively... I studied him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a different approach to it than I had done before, but it also was one of those things where, you know, in order to speak like him, I had to speak like him all the time.
Guest:Like, there was... I realized there's certain things that you can't just, like...
Guest:do it in the moment like you have to do it consistently and to some extent stay in it enough so that you don't you're not conscious of it anymore yeah so it seeps into your body and there's and and and that was a different that was a different challenge i was asking for that and then i've had other roles since then that have kind of required that so i feel like i've changed my approach from that film
Marc:And I guess because it's a real guy, you have a template there for at least mannerism, inflection.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you have something to, you know the target at least.
Guest:And it's like, I always think of that scene in Apollo 13, you know, when they're like trying to figure out how to get him back and they dump shit on the table and they take a circle and they're like, we got to fit a circle and a triangle.
Guest:And you're like, that's how it is, right?
Guest:You get handed this thing and you're like, hopefully I can get in there and fit in the right way.
Marc:Well, so these two movies that are out now that are sort of like about to take off.
Marc:About self-abandonment.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Denial of reality.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, to play Trump at this particular point in history, a younger Trump, because I watched that movie and I watched a different man.
Marc:I watched both of them.
Marc:I can't believe you got through it.
Marc:I mean, both of them.
Marc:I didn't know to ask.
Marc:I was like, maybe I shouldn't ask you.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:So, like, because I'd heard about The Apprentice.
Marc:I didn't really know.
Marc:And then, like, I had to put together who you were.
Marc:And I realized, like, I've seen him in everything.
Marc:I've seen him in a million things.
Marc:You know, and I saw, you know, I, Tonya.
Marc:And that role, that guy's, you know, a very specific type of douchebag.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you've got to approach these guys as people.
Marc:And I mean, you had a relationship with him, obviously, to sort of get it right.
Guest:Well, I met him.
Guest:I only met him once, you know, and that was enough for me, I guess.
Guest:Was he in jail?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He was in Portland, Oregon, I believe.
Guest:Just a guy.
Guest:Yeah, he's moved on and living his life.
Guest:And he was generous enough to meet with me.
Guest:And the thing about Itani was, it was the first time he had shared his side of the story.
Guest:He'd never shared any of his side.
Marc:Did you get any feedback from him after the movie?
No.
Guest:I think he emailed me and he said you were the only one that cared.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:That's kind of touching in a weird way, right?
Guest:Look, I mean, you know, it was obviously.
Guest:I mean, I think as an actor, you know, you have to serve the story and the director and the vision and do that in a way without...
Guest:getting your own emotional POV involved, right?
Guest:You got to deal with the humanity of the character no matter how flawed.
Guest:Yeah, you got to figure out what happened and do that as best as possible.
Guest:And because, you know, it's very interesting to me that now really like people actually...
Guest:Are like, how can this person be a human being?
Guest:And you're like, well, I don't know.
Guest:Do you think he shits, sleeps and.
Guest:Or they're like one dimensional monsters.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But there is still.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's a there's still it started somewhere.
Guest:Like we said, there was a blank canvas at one point.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And something happened.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's what's interesting about the Trump movie, about The Apprentice, is that because, like, I'm watching it, you know, and I know certain stories and I've seen different depictions of Roy Cohn.
Marc:And, you know, I've certainly seen caricatures of Trump.
Marc:But, like, this movie, you know, is really about...
Marc:You know, you know, a bordering on romantic relationship between Cohen and Trump early on.
Marc:Like it's even suggested, I think, in the movie that Cohen's intentions initially might have been, you know, more emotional or.
Marc:Or almost sexual than just like I need a prodigy.
Guest:Well, he seemed to have a type if you're looking at the kind of people he was surrounding himself with.
Guest:Or it was a guy before Trump and he was tall and he was blonde.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:But all the baggage that Cohen comes with.
Marc:And, you know, you've heard about that relationship and that, you know, and, you know, I saw, you know, Angels in America, that depiction of Cone.
Marc:Yeah, I saw that and I've read about Cone.
Marc:And, you know, he's a very complex, horrible man.
Guest:And I was amazed to find out that he was a Democrat.
Guest:Initially.
Guest:Or later.
Guest:I mean, is that true?
Guest:I mean, listen, that that's that's what we were finding out.
Marc:I mean, but but that's a yeah.
Marc:Well, he's you know, his intentions and where that comes from.
Marc:That origin story is different, but because it precedes Trump by many years.
Marc:But you coming into Trump like I was I was happy on some level that you didn't try to do an impression.
Marc:And that must have been a choice.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:I mean, one of the things I did was actually, which I would never do with anything else, but was actually look at all of the different kinds of takes on him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From SNL to impressions to your average guy on TikTok.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or, you know, and see what people were doing in order to learn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In order to learn what not to do.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I found that we've been so habituated and familiarized with the voice or the lips or whatever that it's almost like your senses are kind of like numb towards... The real guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the real guy, I mean, the guy that was in with Rona Barrett and then later with Oprah and Larry King...
Guest:Was a very different guy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, he had those familiar tics even then.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But they seemingly evolved into something.
Guest:I always wondered whether it was conscious on his part.
Guest:Because I feel like, in a way, he became a brand.
Guest:Exaggerated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And maybe he fell into it himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it's better to be remembered whether it's good or bad anyway.
Guest:Well, now you sound like him.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, but there you go.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, but I, so some of it seems very, it was interesting.
Marc:But I thought, yeah, I thought the choices that you made, you know, to portray him, like, you know, there's a lot of things that I think that people don't realize is that he wasn't the chosen son.
Marc:You know, he was a schlub, you know, who was like kind of doing this, like, you know, you know,
Guest:Shit work for his dad.
Guest:He was a really, you know, he was a really rambunctious kid.
Guest:I mean, I remember, you know, there was a story about how he threw something at a teacher.
Guest:You know, he was getting into... He was very... He was a little bit... He had a crazy energy.
Guest:He was getting into fights and stuff.
Guest:And then...
Guest:You know, he whether he cared for attention, it seemed like he wanted attention.
Guest:Remember, he was a middle kid, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is also in itself something else.
Guest:But then, you know, he was he went with his friend in Manhattan and bought like switchblade knives or whatever.
Guest:And that's when the dad, you know, because he saw West Side Story and wanted to be a gangster.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then his father saw that and sent him to military school.
Guest:And.
Guest:I think a lot probably happened over there to kind of shape this mentality because there was a moment when he came back and he was leading the parade down Fifth Avenue where he was later going to build his tower.
Guest:And it was sort of a return into the city.
Guest:But I think all with the goal of kind of...
Guest:proving something.
Guest:And I feel like that's always been the case.
Guest:To his father.
Guest:To his father and maybe to the world.
Marc:Yeah, because like it was because the first half of the movie where he's just like soaking up Cohen, like his dad was in trouble and they didn't look like they were going to get out.
Marc:And he meets Roy Cohen and who's just, you know, this monster of a lawyer.
Marc:And, you know, he seeks his help on behalf of his father in a way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then, you know, Cohen just takes him... He realizes that he's... I think what I'm getting at is he was unformed.
Marc:You know, he might have had all the personality attributes, but he didn't know how to actualize.
Guest:Well, that's what I think one of the things that the movie explores.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Exactly that.
Guest:What came first?
Guest:The chicken or the egg, right?
Guest:Are we talking about, like, is there something there that was always there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That kind of...
Guest:was ended up being at the wrong time at the wrong place you know yeah and and and then this is what you get but but it does feel like look he he was trying he was circling that late club he was circling Upper East Side he was he was really trying to kind of
Guest:cut into Manhattan and, and, and Roy really opened the doors in a lot of ways.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:And the shift that you make as a character, you know, once he becomes, you know, the, you know, the guy that we, the beginning of the guy that we know, right.
Marc:And he detaches from Cone for whatever reason, because he's taken in what he's learned from him.
Marc:And, you know, that in, and also I guess with the, what was that, uh, that famous pastor that he followed, uh,
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The positive thinking guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Marc:I forget his name.
Marc:Wrote the book.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:But your turn as a character was very decisive.
Guest:Well, yeah, I think it was a really difficult, intricate, you know, kind of job to try to map out, right, this evolution into what we see today and to do it in a way that—
Guest:It feels authentic and earned rather than rather than, you know, trying to play into anything like humor or too much or relying too much into what, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And but I but I knew I had to land at some point with it.
Guest:And and that was extensive.
Guest:conversations with Ali Abbasi, the director, in terms of, well, where in the scene do we see this?
Guest:Where do we have a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that?
Guest:Because again, there has to be enough recognizability of the guy.
Guest:But then if you're like 10% to the right, almost too much, then you lose the audience.
Guest:Or if you're too under, then they don't recognize the guy.
Guest:So it was always a balance of,
Guest:And of course, I went into this with everybody saying, you're making a mistake.
Guest:You're alienating half the country.
Guest:These are people in Hollywood that are telling me this.
Guest:In terms of taking the role.
Guest:Taking the role.
Guest:Cast directors saying, we need another Trump movie.
Guest:This is going to be a disaster.
Guest:You don't look like him.
Guest:All this stuff.
Guest:And so it was an interesting mental exercise to kind of not...
Guest:deal with that.
Guest:But in a way, a lot of what I was dealing with seemed fitting towards maybe what he seems to be dealing with.
Guest:In terms of sense of self?
Guest:In terms of what probably... I feel like there's a lot going on in that head, actually.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think there's a lot going on in that head of his... You know, a lot more than maybe he admits or he puts forward.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think there's...
Guest:And so any internal struggle that I was having going into this was probably going to work for me anyway.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Because it seems to be in this style of movie where what you're dealing with is a kind of...
Marc:you know, narrative and visual poetic portrait of a guy, you know, like even the Priscilla movie or that Jackie O movie that like, it's not so much about the facts or the history, but you know, the director and the writers making choices of, of, of pieces of information that are going to define this character.
Marc:But it's not necessarily like, I assume that that dinner in Florida with Cullen didn't happen in real life.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, there was some, of course, this is not a documentary.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Marc:And it's not even a biopic in the standard way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, it's a period in time that was the defining period in time for what was the beginning of what we know of this historical figure now.
Marc:I mean, in a way, it's Star Wars.
Yeah.
Guest:In a way, it's Darth Vader.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, in a way, it's it's it's all those things.
Guest:It's the same code that, you know, David O. Russell referred to it as like the Samurai code or whatever.
Guest:It's the same code of, you know, of between men.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is which is here's the student that overcomes the teacher.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, that scene is like there is a couple of scenes I thought were were were profound.
Marc:Which is, you know, when he is, you know, finally actually having human emotions about the death of his brother.
Marc:Well, he spoke a lot about it, though.
Guest:He actually spoke.
Guest:It's the most he keeps repeating what he said, but it's the most he's ever spoken about his family has been in regards to his brother.
Marc:Because it devastated him on some level, and he's framed it as a warning, right?
Guest:And you know what an interview he did where he speaks a lot candidly?
Guest:You know who he speaks to?
Guest:Connie Chung.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Weirdly.
Guest:But he opens up, I think it was in the early... It was...
Guest:probably like early 90s or late 80s.
Guest:It's on YouTube.
Guest:And she interviews him and he talks a lot about... And he actually starts to go into the whole, oh, do you feel guilty about this?
Guest:Do you feel you had some role into it?
Guest:Maybe should you have helped him?
Guest:Should you have guided him?
Guest:And he kind of opens up a little bit about it.
Guest:So clearly there was some degree of...
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But the way you played it with those emotions almost being alien to him.
Marc:And like he in that moment with Ivana couldn't stop them, but also did not want to be comforted, did not want to be touched, did not want to be... Because he's weak, because that would be weak.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's the whole thing here.
Guest:I mean, it seemed to me that there was a real...
Guest:There was a real strong kind of lesson being taught in that household, maybe about weakness, about weakness and about about emotion in itself and emotion actually being sort of an obstacle towards you getting what you want.
Guest:And that's what's fascinating about narcissists and sociopaths.
Guest:I'm talking journaling now.
Guest:It's the fact that they can detach in a way that maybe you and I can't.
Guest:And empathy is not really that important.
Marc:Or maybe not engaged.
Marc:I mean, empathy is something you have to nurture, generally speaking, you know, and sort of sit with it.
Marc:You know, it's not necessarily, certainly in a character like him, you know, something that they're born with or sort of honor.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I mean, I keep saying, you know, did you ever read that book about malignant narcissism?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, it's interesting because it talks about, again, that something so traumatic has to happen when you're in childhood.
Guest:That like your defense mechanism in order for you to survive, because you can't process the emotions at the time because you're too young, is to invent a bigger ego version of yourself that acts as a protector and steps in and basically pushes you.
Guest:So you suppress all of that.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And if...
Guest:That can carry somebody until the end of time.
Guest:Did you read that in preparation?
Guest:I read that for something else a few years ago when I played a cannibal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I did revisit it for this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, like, there are moments in it, like that moment in the bed I found to be, you know, revealing and humanizing in a strange way.
Marc:Because, I mean, I think that's sort of the challenge is that, you know, you've got to play it honestly.
Guest:But do you not think that that Donald Trump has cried in his life?
Guest:I bet he cried.
Guest:I bet he could have cried last week.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But he wouldn't want you in my eye to know that.
Marc:But I bet he cries all the time.
Marc:Well, yeah, I had a father who was narcissistic and they do cry.
Marc:But it's usually in an internal loop of it's not in relation to anything but something internal.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, they're not weeping at movies.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No.
Marc:You know, it's something childish and weird.
Guest:Well, it's something that catches up, right?
Guest:And it's like, it's probably something that happens, like we in the movie were exploring, which is, it's a situation where he, for a moment, it catches him by surprise and he can't control it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I would imagine that's probably happened.
Marc:Yeah, I'm sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that scene where he finally cuts Kong loose,
Marc:And says, you're the fucking devil.
Marc:Like that was an interesting scene out on the street, you know, after he knew that Roy was sick and he probably had AIDS.
Marc:But but this idea and then he just co-opted, you know, everything that Roy taught him as his own.
Marc:But but that, you know, the devil calling the devil a devil, you know, it's kind of an interesting moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was all improvised.
Guest:I mean, a lot of that scene was improvised, you know, the slap and everything.
Guest:And and and and we actually had shot things where I got physical with him after which didn't end up in the movie.
Guest:I mean, we you know, Jeremy and I really and I really respect Jeremy.
Guest:I loved him as a partner.
Guest:I think we pushed each other to the best of our abilities.
Guest:And we were both, you know, trying to be as committed to this as possible.
Guest:But a lot of that came out of improvising.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:The director let you just go?
Guest:He let us do that a lot, actually.
Guest:You know, the beginning of the Trump Tower scene with Ed Koch, that was improvised.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:There were moments all throughout, which was another piece of the research that we were doing, I felt like.
Guest:Both Jeremy and I kind of, in a weird way, got like a PhD in the time period and sort of the facts about one another.
Guest:Where New York was at?
Guest:Where it was at.
Guest:Who was the mayor?
Guest:Who was the pitcher for the Mets?
Guest:Everything so that you would have this arsenal to bring to the scene in case you went there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that was a really exciting but nerve-wracking experience because I've never worked like that.
Guest:And then the camera would always shift, so it would always be moving, and that's why...
Guest:I mean, the way they edited it was incredible.
Guest:But you were always on your toes.
Guest:And Ollie would go and tell Jeremy something in his ear that I wouldn't hear.
Guest:And he'd tell me something else in my ear.
Guest:And then we'd go off and face each other.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:So a lot of that came out of that kind of way of working.
Guest:And it was exciting.
Guest:But I think at that moment...
Guest:It's a little bit like he's saying to Roy as I took it, hey, buddy, we don't fucking choose to be human beings when it's convenient.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let's just be honest about what this is.
Guest:You're a fucking devil.
Guest:And so, you know, and so am I. I mean, like, you know, like own your side of the street.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But.
Marc:Well, that was interesting.
Marc:He chose that.
Marc:And I don't really know what the story with the real Roy at that point when after he got sick that, you know, there was a humanity coming up from him.
Marc:That was different than what he was when he was younger.
Marc:And Trump was sort of going the opposite direction.
Guest:Well, the thing about these guys, honestly, and this is one thing that Jeremy and I talked a lot about was there was there's it's like there's this tremendous sense of loyalty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To both of them.
Guest:I mean, they really cared about.
Guest:I mean, look at him even now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like it's like you're there for me.
Guest:I'm fucking there for you.
Guest:And this is like, right?
Guest:That's a bit mafia.
Guest:But I think Roy, for instance, really loved his friends.
Guest:He loved company and loved his people.
Guest:And the people that were there for him, he was going to die for.
Guest:And that's what, again, it's just not black and white.
Guest:I mean, there are sometimes... I think about work a lot in this situation.
Guest:Because life, sometimes you've got...
Guest:good people that are obviously capable of terrible things.
Guest:Sometimes awful people can do one good thing in a moment.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yeah, people are complicated.
Guest:It doesn't define them and sort of like excuse them or exonerate them, but it's complicated.
Marc:Yeah, and I thought the choices that the writer and the director made about these points in his life, you know, specifically the dynamic with his father, you know, his relationship with diet pills, you know, the relationship with...
Marc:With Ivana, you know, the way that ends, you know, or... Well, it's tragic, because you can see that she was a massive part of his life.
Guest:First of all, I mean, he cared about her, like, till the end of time.
Guest:He didn't want to admit.
Guest:And she was there at the beginning, and...
Guest:I think that, you know, to some extent, it seems once she got pretty popular, you know, she was out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I thought it was a great movie that, you know, really explored some, you know, not as like this document or a documentary, but as a character study.
Marc:It was, you know, powerful.
Guest:I think that was the goal of the movie.
Guest:I mean, I know it's the timing of it, which again, as much as people think it was planned, was not planned.
Guest:I mean, we really did luck out because a couple months ago, didn't even know this thing was going to come out.
Guest:But it was always about...
Guest:Certainly on our part, not the politics, but really going to the center of the character, of what is this character?
Guest:What is this person?
Guest:And also, what is the American dream and what does it do to somebody?
Guest:What is this thing in America that we're so obsessed with?
Guest:The hero complex.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Got to win.
Guest:Got to get over the line.
Guest:And when is it enough?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how much time between that movie and A Different Man?
Guest:Well, so we tried starting the Trump movie a few times, and we couldn't.
Guest:It was tough to get the financing.
Guest:And then A Different Man started happening before the Trump movie.
Guest:So I did that one actually first in 22.
Guest:And then we were going to do the Trump movie in the winter of 22, and then it didn't happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was going to do the Marvel movie.
Guest:And then the strike happened.
Guest:And then it actually ended up flipping.
Marc:So when you read a script like, you know, because you have this, you know, it's sort of a luxury to have this Marvel job and then be able to do these smaller movies.
Marc:So when you read like something like A Different Man, you know, what makes you take that role?
Marc:Because it's a very odd movie.
Guest:It is, but, you know, it was such a different movie, like you said.
Guest:And I think sometimes, I mean, now I've embraced fear more than when I was younger.
Guest:I look for things that I don't quite know my way into.
Guest:And I look for things that also feel...
Guest:are asking or trying to express something and that's important or asking an important question.
Guest:With A Different Man, similarly, again, there's a real reflection of the time we're in in terms of how I think you and I started this conversation, which is we're in this world now where we're not encouraged to be different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:we're seemingly more encouraged to just follow the herd ahead of you because that's what's okay and you don't want to bring attention to yourself.
Guest:You don't want to have a different opinion.
Guest:You don't want to have the backlash or whatever.
Guest:But all we need to... The one important thing we have to do is to preserve that authentic self.
Guest:And here's a movie that is challenging that in such a creative way and going out of its way not only to reshape how we see...
Guest:disabled and disfigured people yeah but also just um you know not trying to sweet talk or or have wrap it all up in a in a pretty bow at the end of the movie about in life you know you can make a mistake and you can suffer from that mistake for the rest of your life if if in if the consequence is lying to yourself and abandoning who you are
Marc:Yeah, and it's sort of interesting, the turn of you being the guy who had the disfigurement and then doing what you would think anybody in that position would want to do, which was not be that guy anymore and having the opportunity to take a chance and get rid of this disfigurement.
Marc:And then when you do, you become almost as sort of like not a boring character, but just a regular guy who's, you know, who wants to erase all that part of his life.
Marc:And even in light of the one person that was kind to you, who you were, I think, in love with as that character.
Marc:And then the entire turn of the movie, which I don't want to really spoil anything for everybody, but, you know, a real dude.
Marc:with that disfigurement, you know, sort of becomes the focus of the movie.
Marc:And your character who, you know, his character is based on in, you know, what becomes a play, you know, and then your struggle to figure out who you are and not being able to own who you originally were because it's very complicated.
Marc:It's almost, it's bordering on sci-fi.
Marc:It's not quite horror.
Marc:It's a little bit of a comedy, but it's really an investigation or a sort of,
Marc:kind of, uh, of, of self, right.
Marc:Of, of, of what is important and what is love and what is, you know, who we are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and, and, and the chasing of, of, of that next thing, right.
Guest:It's like, we spend our lives now, like just consistently looking at other people.
Guest:I mean, you're seeing them through filters, you're seeing them through, they're giving you the best, the best highlight reel.
Guest:And, and, and you're just walking away with that feeling like your own life is missing something and whatever.
Guest:And then,
Guest:And then you go there.
Guest:I mean, the guy goes there right to where he thinks will inevitably be be that chance.
Guest:And it actually ends up robbing him of the of the thing that that made him different.
Guest:And, you know, I've spoken about this a little bit like but I want to do you ever listen to that American Life podcast?
Guest:It's not in a long time.
Guest:Yeah, it's been a minute.
Guest:But there was this woman I met, Elna Baker, who talked about... Oh, I know her.
Guest:She was, I think, like 200-something pounds.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Really heavy and ended up losing all this weight.
Guest:And kind of, you know, suddenly she was walking down the street and every guy's looking at her and girl and attention.
Guest:And she sort of kind of went a little bit...
Guest:sort of lost herself in the process because finally the, the freedom to be able to live like quote unquote, all of us was there, but it went to such a point that she ended up having an identity crisis because not only did she get addicted to, to just the dopamine of, of, of, you know, this attraction that she'd never felt before.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, but then she found herself missing the, the, the old kid that was the heavier kid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And,
Guest:and actually sometimes even missing walking down the street and the looks that she was getting, the sort of snarly looks that she was getting from people, because she was like, at least I was different.
Guest:Now I just look like everybody else.
Marc:Right, interesting.
Marc:Yeah, so in general,
Marc:When you take a role, like, you know, you're signed on and now, you know, you've read the script, you've taken the role.
Marc:What, what do you do first?
Guest:Well, I think, I think you read it, you know, I think there's a, you have to read the script a few times and pay attention to what's coming up and, and you have to find whatever is in there in you, I guess.
Guest:And, and, and,
Guest:And it doesn't happen overnight.
Guest:I think you kind of just keep... For me, I keep reading it again and again until stuff starts to come alive in certain ways.
Guest:And I go, oh, I get that.
Guest:I understand that in some way.
Guest:Or here's something that's totally...
Guest:I don't know, and I need to kind of go and learn about.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But every single one is different.
Guest:I mean, sometimes you get something, and immediately you know your way in.
Guest:And other times it's like, fuck.
Guest:Like with this one, I was like, I don't know how the fuck I'm going to do this.
Guest:And then you don't, until you get the prosthetics, until you get certain pieces,
Guest:then that's when stuff starts coming alive.
Guest:But I always think every character has one emotional need, a massive sort of need at the core that they're trying to express in some way.
Guest:And whether that's to be loved or whether that's to be the most powerful person in the world, whether that's to be...
Guest:you know, noticed, heard.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:And that core emotional need drives a lot of everything else to do.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:So it's an exciting time.
Marc:It's an exciting time for you, that's for sure.
Marc:Well— These two movies are out.
Guest:Yeah, I mean— And they're so different.
Guest:It's exciting that people are watching them, I think.
Guest:I've certainly—I'm sure you've been there, too.
Guest:It's like sometimes you can kill yourself for something, and unfortunately it doesn't get seen.
Marc:Yeah, nobody sees it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then you—you know, it's like— Yeah.
Marc:I always think about Ben Foster in that—he did that—
Marc:that Holocaust fighter movie.
Marc:Oh man, that looked brutal.
Marc:It was brutal, but I don't know many people who saw it.
Marc:And that guy like lost a million pounds and fucking live that fucking guy's life.
Marc:And it's like, I guess you really have to, you know, at a certain point, you know, be, be engaged in the work enough to, to have that be enough on some level.
Yeah.
Guest:It's this funny thing that I'm still trying to figure out, right?
Guest:This sort of thing about being creative and then creating this thing, putting it out there, and then suddenly it's no longer yours, right?
Guest:And then everybody comes in and throws their opinion.
Guest:Like, how much do we need...
Guest:the opinion of someone else about what you've just created.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And sometimes I don't know, like even like, I wonder about the Picasso's of the world.
Guest:I mean, those guys didn't just knock every single paint now, every single pain, they could have drawn a happy face and it's like, whatever.
Guest:But at the time, not everything is perfect.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you'll fail.
Guest:And then there's gotta be something in you in terms of like, bring you back to wanting to do that without the approval or without the need for the,
Marc:kind of hard too you know because the ego of the creative person is a pretty needy thing i know the ego is the fucking devil i know i know all you can do is like with age eventually it gets a little beat up and uh things do you find i mean a lot of people talk about this like do you find like it's also the personal life right that you have to have to to keep yourself grounded and in the world you
Marc:Yeah, it's a little tricky, that whole part of it.
Marc:But I do know that as I get older, things that seem so menacing and important, you start to look at it like, what the fuck was I thinking?
Marc:Like years of energy wasted on this pattern of thinking that is ultimately meaningless.
Marc:Yeah, and it all goes by so quickly.
Marc:It does.
Marc:It's starting to seem that way.
Marc:Like at some point, I just got older than everybody else.
Marc:I don't know when that happened.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:You still got some time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, but, but, you know, I'm, I'm, I, uh, losing, you know, like losing a loved one.
Guest:It's interesting, right?
Guest:I'm 42 now.
Guest:I mean, you just, death becomes a different idea, you know, you're, and, and I don't know if it's obviously it's meant to be with all of the stuff that we're trying to live forever with that we're trying to do to live forever.
Guest:There's, there's a mean, there's a point, right.
Guest:To, to sort of
Guest:Because you're aware of time or what you want to do or leave behind, I guess.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:No, totally.
Marc:And then, yeah, you get to a certain age, people will die.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, you have to sort of – it's impossible not to take life into account then.
Marc:And if you're very busy and you're driven to achieve or to create or to whatever, your life is sort of in this thing of doing the thing.
Marc:And then when someone you love passes, all of a sudden it's sort of like, well, am I living life?
Guest:It becomes a very tricky thing then.
Guest:I find sometimes there's, I think also in America, there's such an emphasis on, you know, make sure you're living your best life and capitalizing on time.
Guest:Whatever that means.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, and do you ever see this movie Perfect Days?
Guest:The Wenders movie?
Guest:No, I didn't watch that yet.
Oh.
Guest:But you know of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that movie, man.
Guest:I mean, it's about a guy who cleans bathrooms.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But like, you know, like you watch him live life and you go, I feel this guy is actually more in the moment than I am.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I wonder about kind of like if it's all backwards, if it really is about kind of it is just meant to be, you know, lived like with what it is.
Guest:It's not always about the improvement.
Guest:Yeah, or about the achievement.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Well, maybe we'll figure it out.
Marc:It's good talking to you, though.
Guest:This is amazing.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:I'm such a fan, man.
Marc:Oh, I appreciate it.
Marc:Thanks for doing it.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Good guy.
Marc:A Different Man is in theaters now, and The Apprentice opens in theaters this Friday.
Marc:Hang out a minute.
Marc:Hey, for Full Marin listeners, we've got an old treat for you.
Marc:We started rolling out the episodes of the Mark and Tom Show with me and Tom Sharpling.
Marc:We did the first one way back in 2012.
Guest:When you're in, like, entertainment, you...
Guest:It's like you're on your own.
Guest:And it's like, it's not, there's no company structure that's just like, hey, you know how things work at this company is that this is, this is how the year plays out and just fit into that structure.
Guest:It's like you wake up in the morning.
Guest:It's just like, oh my God, what?
Guest:It's all on me.
Guest:It's on, it's like.
Guest:I could hit new file on Word and then it'll say zero words on this thing written.
Guest:And it's on me to every day figure out what I got to do on this thing.
Guest:It's like, what do I do?
Guest:There's like that part of it keeps me from feeling present in things.
Guest:The fact that I always have to think about just the next thing and the thing after the thing and the thing after the thing.
Guest:It's just like...
Guest:i'll try i try to go for these walks and i just leave my cell phone behind and i just like yeah i'll just i'll listen to music and i'll just like and i just try to just do that and it's just like and i'm trying to just reclaim it like like a half hour at a time like you're in the walks are you not you mean you shut off all that shit like i don't bring my phone with me i mean but do you wonder who's calling
Guest:it's hard sometimes i'm just kind of like you just get because it's that motion that thing you know did your leg ever feel like you feel the vibration and you don't even have your phone in your pocket yeah it's phantom phone what's going on with that it's like that's a new thing for the human condition is the idea like oh yeah i felt uh my upper thigh uh vibrate oh my phone's not in my pocket
Guest:What is that?
Guest:That's like a sickness.
Marc:We'll keep adding those Mark and Tom episodes to the full Marin feed.
Marc:To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Here's a loop thing I did and I repeated it, but that doesn't matter.
Marc:Eventually, eventually I'll figure it all out.
Marc:But I like this groove.
Marc:Humor lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.