Episode 1572 - Lupita Nyong'o
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck canadians what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's it going
Marc:I am coming in for landing here in Vancouver.
Marc:This is the last week, I believe, of this production I'm involved with.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:It's been a very... I don't know if the word is cathartic as much as it is kind of mildly enlightening in a lot of ways.
Marc:In personal ways, in cultural ways, it's been a pretty great experience on a lot of levels.
Marc:I don't know what I was anticipating.
Marc:I do know that I didn't do a lot of the things that I thought I would do.
Marc:And I know that's a pattern.
Marc:And I know I need to kind of think about it.
Marc:I don't know at what point one kind of is on to themselves enough to just be like, what are you thinking, dude?
Marc:You're not going to do all that shit.
Marc:It's like, no, no, no, I'm going to do all this shit.
Marc:I'll try to explain it.
Marc:Because it is something at this point in my life, at this stage in the game, I should sort of know about myself by now.
Marc:But maybe I'll get into it in a second.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Lupita Nyong'o.
Marc:What an amazing conversation on so many levels.
Marc:I mean, she's just a generally impressive person.
Marc:She's, I guess you would call a global citizen.
Marc:She speaks four languages.
Marc:She has called Kenya, Mexico, and the United States her homes.
Marc:She won an Oscar for her very first movie role in 12 Years a Slave.
Marc:Since then, she's been in the Star Wars movies, Jordan Peele's Us, the Black Panther movies, and a lot more.
Marc:Amazing person.
Marc:She's written a best-selling children's book.
Marc:She has a new storytelling podcast called Mind Your Own, and she's voicing the main character in the new DreamWorks film, The Wild Robot.
Marc:But man, it's one of these people that you talk to if you're lucky enough to have an opportunity to talk to people that just makes you realize that your life is so small and not necessarily unimpressive, but certainly limited given the possibilities that are out there for us all to explore in this world we live in, culturally, creatively, politically.
Marc:I mean...
Marc:I'm doing a lot of thinking.
Marc:But that's really where most of my traveling happens.
Marc:And a lot of the thoughts that I'm having are cyclical and they operate in patterns.
Marc:They operate in spirals.
Marc:Every once in a while, you know, you can kind of throw a new one in there and hope it catches.
Marc:And then it kind of opens up the spinning circle a little bit.
Marc:But in terms of really getting out in the world in a way that is engaged and curious and active, I don't do it.
Marc:And it's not that it's a liability, but given the possibilities of opening your mind and opening your heart to all the different types of people, types of art, types of culture, types of interests,
Marc:that we get stuck in our own little thing, our own little mental, emotional, psychological room, and you just sit there and speculate or talk yourself out of doing things or think it's going to be too much of a hassle.
Marc:I'm talking directly to the audience of me right now, but maybe some of you can understand that.
Marc:That I fundamentally...
Marc:I don't mind traveling, but a lot of times when I do travel, I get there and I spin out over bullshit because my brain wants to lock into the things that make me comfortable.
Marc:And sometimes going out of your comfort zone
Marc:in a very real way, environmentally, like changing your environment completely, it's frightening, but that's where you can really sort of experience how small you are, how relatively unimportant you are, no matter who you think you are, what you think you know, and just how big the world is.
Marc:So to have a conversation...
Marc:with somebody for whatever reasons, and a lot of them were just familial, had moved around so much and comes from a very intelligent and academic people and lived in Kenya, which I have no idea.
Marc:And this has happened a few times on the show.
Marc:And my feelings were always sort of the same.
Marc:Like, you know, what am I doing with my life?
Marc:I mean, what, what I'm just sitting here spinning my dumb little plates all the time with, with very little variation.
Marc:Like I learned a new guitar lick.
Marc:I came up with a new joke.
Marc:I ate some interesting food, you know, but usually like oddly, those are the things that I gravitate towards when I go other places.
Marc:Like what, where are the things that will make me feel comfortable?
Marc:as opposed to where the things that I know nothing about and are surprising and enriching and, and mind blowing, you know, those are secondary to me.
Marc:Like, all right, I need to find the one place where I can buy the bread.
Marc:I need to, where's the one restaurant that I'm going to, you know, go to as much as possible while I'm here.
Marc:Is there, is there a place where I can go that, you know, makes me feel grounded?
Marc:And I, I guess that's just the, the, the, the,
Marc:the reality of me.
Marc:And it's also been why it's been difficult for me to travel.
Marc:And then sometimes you travel and you get stuck in the sort of rut of seeing the things that you have to see and not getting off the beaten track or not kind of letting the day take you.
Marc:Again, this is being directed at an audience of one, and that's me.
Marc:And it does sort of play into some of the things I was kind of experiencing being up here for so long, being away from home.
Marc:I mean, this is really the longest time
Marc:I've been away from home.
Marc:Obviously, I've gone back pretty frequently, but to really kind of dig in in another country, another city.
Marc:Granted, it's Canada.
Marc:It's not a complete jarring experience, but I've always been horrendously nervous about it.
Marc:Again, talking to me.
Marc:Hey, look, I've added some dates here in Los Angeles.
Marc:I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter next Monday, September 16th.
Marc:I'm at the Elysian on Wednesday, September 18th.
Marc:I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on Friday, September 20th.
Marc:Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st.
Marc:And then back here in LA, I'm at Largo on Thursday, October 3rd.
Marc:So some of this stuff I'm talking about makes me a little crazy, you know, because people talk about traveling and like, I don't even know how to fucking take vacations.
Marc:It's so fucking, I just, you know, I kind of work.
Marc:I live my life.
Marc:There's no real difference between me working and living my life.
Marc:And when I do work, like in this situation where I'm up here on a production, I've got every, it takes all of my energy to
Marc:to sort of like, you know, keep my shit together and do the job.
Marc:And because I'm so unaccustomed to sort of being away and being, you know, involved in these longer projects that I'm here, I'm at the end of it now.
Marc:You know, I've got a week left and the whole thing feels like a fucking dream.
Marc:I don't even know if I did it.
Marc:I mean, I've done, we're shooting the last episodes of this show and I don't even like...
Marc:doing the first episode with me and Owen starting out, me and Owen Wilson starting out in the first scenes, it feels like it was like five fucking years ago.
Marc:And the thing that gets me is that
Marc:And I used to do this even more.
Marc:Like there used to be such specific things that I needed to travel with just to make me feel grounded.
Marc:Like I was looking in my cabinet the other day and there's this travel water boiling pot because I remember at some point I was drinking tea compulsively because I decided I didn't want to do coffee.
Marc:It was too much.
Marc:So I was drinking like a gallon of hot black tea a day, thinking I was doing something better, but I was just trying to figure out how to get the same jackpot
Marc:the same juice out of a different type of caffeine delivery system.
Marc:But somewhere along the line, someone told me that people, if you ask for a water boiling pot at a hotel, there's a good chance that somebody like boiled their underwear in it.
Marc:Now, I don't know if that's true, but I just remember like I needed to have this certain type of travel teapot so I could make the tea the way I wanted to make it.
Marc:And it had to be part of what I brought with me on the road.
Marc:That along with gym clothes, you got to bring the gym clothes and certain books, books that I've never read.
Marc:that have been sitting in my house for years.
Marc:I'm like, I'm going to read it this week.
Marc:Well, because I'm going to be on a plane and I'm going to be in a room.
Marc:And I, you know, I've been doing that kind of shit for decades.
Marc:I came up here to Vancouver with an entire library of stuff.
Marc:You know, heavy shit, man.
Marc:You know, like books are like, I'm finally going to get to this Gabor Mate book.
Marc:I'm finally going to read this philosophical text.
Marc:It's time that I learn algebra, whatever it is.
Marc:And, you know, and I make plans like I'm bringing my hiking boots.
Marc:I'm probably going to get out there and hike as much as possible.
Marc:And
Marc:Look, I went on the one hike, but then eventually I just lock into the patterns.
Marc:I've got the book sitting there that I'm just going to have to bring home and put back in the pile where I pulled them out of from, you know, when I left for Vancouver three months ago, read none of them.
Marc:And, and like, look, obviously I'm working all day.
Marc:I've got to, you know, act in these scenes and I've got to do the script and I've got to know my lines and all that stuff.
Marc:And that's not nothing, but I, I don't know when you just stop fooling yourself and it's slowly starting to happen.
Marc:Just be like, dude, don't bring all that shit.
Marc:Don't bring all that shit.
Marc:But then I get up here.
Marc:I bought a mini food processor.
Marc:I bought Tupperware.
Marc:I bought all this shit so I could just have a kitchen that worked so I could feel like I was doing the things I need to do to ground myself and to feel like I had some control over my life and I was at home.
Marc:You know, at what point, you know, do you just let go and realize it's all going to be OK?
Marc:You know, if you need to buy something or whatever, if you need to do something when you're out there.
Marc:But like, you know, stay open.
Marc:Don't just close down and surround yourself like I need all these things to make me comfortable so I don't have to fully engage with the new thing.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Am I being too hard on myself?
Marc:Or not hard enough?
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Oh, there's something I want to address here.
Marc:I got an email that I thought was funny, but also I know it exists, what is addressed here.
Marc:Subject line, squeaky chair from Wendy.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Hope your day is going well.
Marc:I'm a big fan of your podcast and acting.
Marc:I saw you twice in Toronto at Just for Laughs, and you were awesome.
Marc:I'm hoping you have some Eastern Canada tour dates, specifically Ottawa.
Marc:Okay, well, we'll see, Wendy, but...
Marc:Here's this reason for my emails.
Marc:One of your chairs is squeaky.
Marc:I listened to your podcast driving to and from work.
Marc:And for the longest time, I thought there was something wrong with my car.
Marc:Then I realized it was your chair.
Marc:I'm pretty sure it's yours because in the Chris Robinson opening, I could hear it.
Marc:I'm sorry if I've added to your list of things to do.
Marc:You don't have to fix it.
Marc:And hopefully it doesn't rent space in your head for free now.
Marc:I just wanted to let you know, in case you want to do a PSA for your listeners, that it's not their car.
Marc:I won't keep you if you even see this, but just wanted to let you know.
Marc:Thank you for making me laugh and smile.
Marc:You're the best from Wendy.
Marc:OK, yeah, it's not your car and it's not the chair.
Marc:It is actually the mic boom.
Marc:And I will get on that.
Marc:I'll get some WD-40 because I know I've gotten to the it's a fucked up thing.
Marc:is that the mic boom on my side of the table in my garage kind of floats.
Marc:It doesn't stay in one place.
Marc:And I just don't fix it.
Marc:I've wedged a book in it so it doesn't float away from me while I'm talking.
Marc:And a lot of times I'll hold it like I hold the stand-up mic and I'll move it.
Marc:And I think there's a little squeak in that boom joint.
Marc:I will WD-40 the boom joint, Wendy.
Marc:And again, it's not your car.
Marc:So as I said before, Lupita Nyong'o is a very incredible person, and I think you'll enjoy this conversation.
Marc:Her new podcast, Mind Your Own, launches on September 19th, and her new animated film, The Wild Robot, is in theaters September 27th, my birthday.
Marc:This is me talking to Lupita.
Marc:Do you live here?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Guest:How long?
Guest:I moved here last year.
Marc:From where?
Guest:From New York.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how do you like it?
Guest:Somewhat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I like my neighborhood, but I still haven't figured LA out.
Marc:It's kind of... It's like there's nothing to figure out.
Marc:It's just this sprawling thing and not unlike any other town.
Marc:You find the four places you go to.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you go to them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I mean, so yeah, it's hard to like figure out what my community structure is, you know?
Marc:And you think about that.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:You think about that.
Guest:I do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, because you need people.
Marc:Kind of, but that's not really an LA thing.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's kind of isolating.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you need people, you got to drive to go get to get to the people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where'd you live in New York?
Guest:I lived in Brooklyn.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Fort Greene.
Marc:So but New York's so different because you just walk out and you feel like you're part of a community.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you don't have to in New York.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You can hit someone up on the same day and meet up in an hour.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just get on the train.
Guest:Yeah, and in L.A., that is absolutely impossible.
Guest:You can make plans two weeks in advance, and they still may not pan out.
Marc:Yeah, it's crazy.
Marc:And then you've got to drive.
Marc:That factors into it.
Marc:Where do we got to go?
Marc:I'm not going to the west side.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I never go to the west side.
Marc:I feel like I'd have to pack a bag.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I felt like coming here, to tell you the truth.
Marc:See, it's funny.
Marc:So you're not really that used to it.
Marc:Everything feels like a journey.
Guest:Yeah, but I don't mind the journey because I grew up in Nairobi, in the suburbs of Nairobi.
Guest:So even going to school in the morning, it would take about an hour and a half to two hours to get to school and get back home.
Marc:On public transport?
Guest:No, on the school bus.
Marc:Oh, God.
Guest:So I'm used to going the distance to do the things that I need to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What I'm not used to is just, like, the flakiness of Angelenos.
Guest:Of people.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that's sort of, like, people sticking to their area and being unwilling to move around.
Guest:I kind of, like, because I'm a virgin to L.A., I don't know the neighborhood, so I'll agree to things and then realize on the day that it's, like, three hours away.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're going to a whole other country almost.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just come up to Ojai for dinner.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:An hour and a half on the school bus.
Marc:Why would it take so long?
Guest:Well, because we lived far away from the school.
Guest:In Kenya, we don't have like, you know, the zoning here.
Guest:It seems like there's schools for every neighborhood or something like that.
Guest:In Kenya, that wasn't the zoning system.
Guest:So my school was really far away.
Guest:So I was like the first one picked up.
Guest:Oh, the last one taken home?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I have no sense of Kenya.
Guest:Well, how can I be of service?
Marc:Well, it's just so weird because I've been working in Canada.
Marc:Have you worked up there for movies and stuff?
Guest:I haven't, but I've been there.
Marc:And I started to realize that the national...
Marc:ego of a country, it has a big influence on individual egos.
Guest:Truly.
Marc:And I had this realization like last week that the American ego is just a monster.
Marc:There is this weird entitlement, this competitiveness, this idea of, you know, deserving things and winning.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And with a country that's a little more stable in terms of how it creates safety nets for people, they don't have that same thing.
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:And I'm up there and I'm thinking, like, why does it feel a little boring?
Marc:You know, because people aren't operating.
Guest:In a dog-eat-dog.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:People aren't, like, game.
Marc:Like, what's happening?
Marc:You know?
Marc:And so, like, when you talk about, like, Nairobi and you've lived here long enough, what do you feel the differences are?
Guest:Well, we have a very like hustle mentality.
Guest:I think that would be fair to say in terms of like a national, I guess, identity.
Guest:There's sort of like your, you know, resourcefulness and like you got to have your hands in a number of pots.
Guest:But then there's also there's also it's it's quite community minded.
Guest:So, you know, there is a sense of, like, your problem is my problem if, like, you're in my community.
Guest:So there's lots of, like, just this week, unfortunately, I had a cousin who lost her sister-in-law quite tragically.
Guest:And immediately it was everybody coming together to raise funds for the needs.
Guest:And that's very, very common.
Guest:That's sort of, like, let's pool our resources.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you know your neighbors and your families around.
Guest:And you know your neighbors, yep, you do.
Marc:And you grew up your whole life there?
Guest:Well, I was born in Mexico, and then I moved there shortly after I turned one.
Guest:So my conscious memory is all Kenya, and then I moved back to Mexico when I was 16.
Guest:Why Mexico?
Marc:Why Mexico?
Guest:Because my father was a politician.
Guest:He was an activist, a political activist.
Marc:In Kenya.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And we were under an autocratic regime and he was fighting for democracy.
Guest:And then after some tragic events, including the disappearance of one of his brothers, he went into self-exile in Mexico because nobody would look for a Kenyan in Mexico.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they didn't.
Guest:They didn't.
Marc:He had a job and everything.
Guest:Yes, he was a professor of political science at Colegio de Mexico.
Marc:So, you know, like growing up in real autocracy, was it like that in your life?
Guest:Yes, it was.
Guest:When we went back, he continued his work fighting for this multi-party political system.
Guest:And so, yeah, I mean, my childhood, I remember being under house arrest and my father being detained without...
Guest:Who was the leader?
Guest:Daniel Arapamoy.
Guest:He was our leader for very long, over 20 years.
Marc:In day-to-day life, because I think about this a lot because of the situation we're in here.
Marc:I mean, I'm not alone in it, but there is a fear.
Marc:When you think about the world, a lot of countries are run by autocrats.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Most of them.
Marc:The idea that this country survived...
Marc:With a relatively democratic system is peculiar.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But do you feel signs like here?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Signs of autocracy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I feel like in the last regime before the one we're in right now.
Yeah.
Guest:It was scary because it felt like he had been studying the autocrats.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And everything operates at the impulse of the leader.
Guest:And what it really proved is that democracy is an illusion, really.
Guest:It's like we have to all buy into it, kind of like the stock market.
Guest:We have to agree that this is how things should work.
Guest:But should anyone have an ulterior motive, it's so easy to work the system to whatever motives you have.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, it's easy to corrupt the system, certainly.
Marc:Like all these things that we assumed were, you know, protected were just kind of like understood.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But also the way I've been thinking about it is that if people are –
Marc:become intolerant or lack empathy, and they believe that that's the way it should be because they believe that.
Marc:Like, democracy, I don't know if it's a total illusion, but without tolerance, what do you do?
Guest:Yeah, without cooperation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There cannot be democracy.
Guest:We have to all want to cooperate with, you know.
Marc:Yeah, and say, like, all right.
Marc:It didn't go our way, but the majority wanted this.
Marc:So we learned to live with it.
Marc:So it's scary to me because I don't know.
Marc:I guess that's my broader question is like you get to a certain point in your life and you think about like, okay, if that happens, how will it affect my life?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think a lot of people here are just sort of like, no, no, I'll probably be all right.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, let me tell you, coming from a country that was once run in quite the autocracy, it can get very restricting and very scary.
Guest:Like how?
Guest:Well, like I said, my uncle disappeared and he was never found.
Marc:So you have no idea?
Guest:No.
Guest:Until today, we do not know what happened to my uncle.
Marc:And was he an activist as well?
Guest:No, he just was a spitting image of my father.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So your dad's got to live with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And our theory is either that I think he may have been killed as a threat to your father.
Guest:That's the theory we've come up with.
Guest:But that's sort of like unknowing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You never know.
Guest:We'll never have closure over that.
Guest:And a whole family is affected by that.
Guest:But then also, when I was growing up, we weren't allowed to utter the president's name.
Guest:We weren't allowed to fly our own flag.
Guest:Those were treasonous acts.
Marc:Utter the leader's name in derisive fashion.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So there was such a fear.
Guest:So we wouldn't we would not utter his name.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Except for in like civics class where you were learning about the civics of the country, the history of the country.
Marc:And was that guided by the politics?
Marc:Like was it total revisionism?
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And also he really thwarted the voices of the intelligentsia of artists.
Guest:And so we have had a stunted artistic growth as a result.
Guest:There was a number of decades there where...
Guest:Our literature just did not grow, you know.
Guest:We have some incredible people who permeated that, like Ngugewa Thiongo, who came to the U.S.
Guest:and has been able to flourish here.
Guest:But we don't have—we're still trying to, like, recover from that thwarted growth, you know, that stifling of our voices in the arts, yeah.
Marc:Because it's important.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Because it offers—I don't think people give the arts enough credit in that way because everything here is gauged by numbers, right?
Marc:So it's like how many likes, how many people watched it and all this stuff.
Marc:But these voices—
Marc:who show a vulnerability or a different way of thinking about how we live, usually it's hard for them to get out just because, you know, how do they get out?
Marc:Here it's perfectly open, but still it's like I never heard of that person.
Guest:Yeah, and here, I mean, the freedom of speech is so mature that it's taken for granted.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so when you don't have it, you recognize how important it is to allow for growth and consciousness.
Guest:And, you know, art is often the starting point of revolutions.
Guest:Because people are getting out of their little bubble and gaining perspective through artists' expression.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I guess, and I don't know how many people are in...
Marc:But was it a sense that like so I'm assuming that the president knew who your dad was.
Guest:Yes, he did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that, you know, he had him in his sights.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And with artists, is it micromanaged to that point where, you know, there's either people within the communities or within the the military or whatever that is out there, you know, ratting people out saying like they're putting on a show that is against the government and that kind of stuff.
Guest:Oh, I'm sure of it.
Guest:I can't speak with authority of that because I don't have any real examples.
Guest:But I'm sure of it because we just didn't have all our art, a lot of it.
Guest:There was lots of like, I remember growing up with like on TV, there would be like music hour and it would be like praising the president.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay, so that was full control of the media.
Guest:Yes, and what songs we were allowed to sing in school.
Guest:We had to pledge allegiance to our country, to our president.
Guest:So there's that sort of brainwashing and just restrictions on what you're able to express.
Marc:So when you were growing up, did you feel like you were in some sort of...
Marc:Like a secret cell of people who were progressive thinkers and creative people?
Marc:Was there a threat when you'd have people over sort of like, you know, don't tell anybody we're hanging out and we're watching this?
Guest:Well, yeah, because, I mean, my father, we would have – there would be meetings held at our home in secret.
Guest:But my parents really – they didn't –
Guest:I wasn't really allowed to inquire about what was going on because that was the way keeping me ignorant was their way of keeping me safe.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, so I could tell that things were going on, but also this is all I knew.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was only when like my father disappeared, for example, and wasn't back for days.
Guest:It was a time when he was taken for a month.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Detained.
Guest:Detained.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And tortured.
Guest:So but, you know, so for us, we were under house arrest.
Guest:I was escorted to my school bus by by a cop, you know, that that sort of thing.
Guest:There was like this ominous presence.
Guest:And.
Guest:I had to participate in like destroying my father's papers and stuff like that.
Guest:So I knew stuff was going on, but I wasn't given full information.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was not safe for me to know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:The less I know, the safer I was.
Marc:And this is like until when did you leave?
Guest:Well, I mean, the reason I left was not because of the political situation.
Guest:My parents sent me to Mexico when I was 16 to learn Spanish.
Guest:And then I went back to Kenya to finish my international baccalaureate.
Guest:And then I moved to the U.S.
Guest:in 2003.
Guest:So actually, the multi-party system happened in 2002.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:And you were how old?
Marc:I was 19.
Marc:So you grew, like, now you're, you know, whatever happened in your childhood, you're now processing it as an adult.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you understand fully the fight that your father was involved in.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And it turned out to be a righteous fight that had a good resolution.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Good enough.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's still very much involved in politics now.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's a governor and he's able to actually affect change.
Marc:It's amazing that he didn't get disappeared.
Guest:Yeah, it's true.
Guest:And I lived my life.
Guest:I've lived my life.
Guest:I continue to live my life in the fear of that because, you know, the one thing my father taught me is the value of speaking up when even when it's uncomfortable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And even when it'll cost you a lot more than you will gain.
Marc:Have you had that experience?
Guest:Yes, I have.
Marc:I have.
Marc:In which and how?
Guest:I spoke up about my experience with Harvey Weinstein.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That wasn't easy to do.
Marc:And that happened when you were in college, right?
Marc:Yes, it did.
Marc:And he was what, scouting people?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, no, I don't know.
Guest:He was scouting people.
Guest:I happened to I happened to meet him at a what do you call it?
Guest:A film festival.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I don't know.
Guest:He was not skulking around the school.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:No.
Marc:So when you like within the when you were younger within the regime that was the autocratic regime in Kenya, I mean, were you doing art?
Guest:Yes, I always was.
Guest:My father used to be an actor himself when he was in school.
Guest:He was quite the thespian.
Guest:So I grew up with him reciting Shakespeare to me.
Guest:So I always had like an affinity for a performance from when I was little.
Guest:Like I was like five.
Guest:My auntie from my mother's sister, she was an actress as well.
Guest:So she would gather all my cousins in me.
Guest:And create these skits to entertain my family.
Guest:So that's when it started.
Guest:But my father definitely was very, very supportive of it.
Guest:And also just he lived vicariously through me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:That can go either way.
Marc:I'm glad it was supportive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As opposed to jealous and weird.
Guest:No, he's always been supportive.
Marc:But that's an amazing thing to have that point of view about the arts because it already is happening here with the silencing of LGBTQ voices, of people in public funding for the arts.
Marc:But it happens within this system on a state level and sometimes on a national level.
Marc:And most people here don't think it affects their lives.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But those arts change everything.
Marc:You know, the movement within the arts.
Marc:And there are things that you can find on television that I think are completely revolutionary.
Marc:And then most of the time people are like, you know, I didn't see it.
Marc:Where is it on?
Marc:So it's a very weird thing that the same thing can happen here just because of the capitalist media environment.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That there's so many voices.
Marc:You know, there's so much content.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That the important stuff doesn't, like, come out.
Marc:It doesn't permeate.
Marc:And change your point of view of things.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And your freedoms slip away slowly and subtly.
Marc:Yeah, and most people's lives are small, so they don't think it affects them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Until one day they have to do something.
Marc:So you're doing plays and stuff as a kid?
Guest:Yeah, I was doing plays.
Guest:My mom was very good at sussing out anything that was going on that involved a spotlight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So like debate, poetry, improvisation, you know.
Guest:Just because she knew you liked it?
Guest:Yeah, she knew.
Guest:So she knew there was an incident when I was really little.
Guest:It was before I started kindergarten.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She tells this story about how her best friend was over for tea.
Guest:And I was probably about three years old.
Guest:And I came out into the living room and told her best friend a full-blown story about my day at school.
Guest:And I was not at school.
Guest:I told her about what I'd learned, what I ate, who I played with.
Guest:And my mother said to her best friend, my daughter is either going to be a criminal or an actor.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm glad you chose the actor.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So she knew that I was interested in performance, but there wasn't a lot of opportunities, right?
Guest:Because the arts were quite restricted.
Marc:What were the restrictions?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, because creative voices were being thwarted, there was a lack of development in the arts as an industry.
Marc:In current voices.
Guest:Yes, in current voices.
Marc:So you could do old plays.
Marc:You could do Shakespeare.
Guest:You could do British plays, but there was very few people actually writing plays and putting them up that were about what was going on in Kenya.
Marc:But were there secret runs and stuff?
No.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You don't know.
Guest:I don't know because I was not aware of them.
Guest:They were that secret.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, just the fact that there were like secret meetings at your house.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like I guess the secret play is a little more risky because you got to get an audience.
Guest:You got to get an audience.
Marc:And then they're implicated.
Guest:Snitches and all of that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So because of that, like, yeah, we didn't have a robust creative industry.
Guest:You know, we had one theater that was, I want to say, semi-professional theater.
Guest:So I actually acted there.
Guest:And in school, I would get into plays whenever I could.
Guest:And, you know, I had little roles here and there.
Guest:So there was always the, that was the goal, was to act.
Yeah.
Guest:Secretly.
Guest:I mean, I also lived in a society where acting was not a viable profession.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there was a lot of pressure, not from my parents, but from the larger society and community, my aunties, my uncles, to do something serious.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Secure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Something secure, you know, like being a doctor, a businesswoman, or, you know, a professor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you have siblings?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I do.
Marc:And did they end up in, what kind of professions did they end up in?
Guest:Well, none of us are politicians.
Marc:Really?
Guest:None of us are politicians.
Marc:I think we're jaded.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, if you can figure out a way to use your voice or your talents without directly making yourself a target of some kind, I imagine growing up the way you did, that would probably be preferable.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, because politics just seemed quite thankless.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But yes, I have a brother who's an actor as well.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He just graduated from college acting school here and he's doing his thing.
Guest:My sister is a wonderful mother and my other sister is in wellness and another sister is in coaching.
Yeah.
Marc:Are they here?
Guest:No.
Marc:They're back there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a brother here who's moving to Kenya shortly.
Marc:Oh, he's going back?
Marc:The actor?
Guest:He's going back, yeah.
Marc:He's going to go back there to work?
Guest:Yeah, he's going to figure it out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:What's the show business situation there now?
Guest:Better than it was before, but, you know, still growing.
Guest:One of the challenges we have is that we don't have a lot of protections, legal protections of creative materials.
Marc:Oh, in terms of getting paid properly in unions?
Guest:Well, that too, but then also just like piracy is an issue and stuff.
Guest:And that sort of stuff really does affect the growth of an industry.
Marc:Did you work within the industry there?
Marc:No.
Guest:I actually did one show right before I came to the U.S.
Guest:to go to drama school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a show called Sugar.
Marc:How long was that on?
Guest:Well, it was three episodes.
Guest:It was like a very sexy PSA on AIDS awareness.
Marc:Oh, so that was the show?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It was all about AIDS awareness?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That must have been exciting to at least be on camera and stuff, right?
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was my first real foray into that.
Guest:And it was exciting because it was the first time that the youth of Kenya felt like their story was being told in a relevant way.
Guest:It was quite daring.
Guest:Kenya is quite conservative when it comes to talking about sex and stuff like that.
Guest:And this show was very bold.
Guest:Is that for...
Marc:Religious reasons?
Guest:Yes, most definitely.
Marc:Which religion?
Guest:We are majority Christian.
Guest:We also have a very big Muslim population and Hindu.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it's pretty – well, I don't know about the Hindus, but the Muslim and Christians, they can be a bit repressive.
Guest:Just a tiny bit.
Yeah.
Marc:So when you go to Mexico as a teen, like, why, because you're like a global citizen.
Marc:So why Spanish?
Marc:Why has your dad decided to Spanish?
Guest:Well, because I was a Mexican.
Marc:Oh, you could go there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I have a Mexican passport.
Guest:And my parents were like, well, if you're going to be Mexican, you might as well speak the language.
Guest:And my parents were very interested in exposing us to as much as possible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So they wanted to kind of make good of having me in Mexico.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you were in Mexico City?
Guest:No, that's where I was born.
Guest:But I lived in a small town called Taxco in the state of Guerrero.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:And how was that?
Guest:It was tough.
Marc:Really?
Marc:For what reasons?
Guest:Because I was 16 years old.
Guest:So that's a highly impressionable age.
Guest:But it's also like the age where you kind of like need a cohort.
Guest:And I didn't have one.
Guest:I was the youngest person in my language school.
Guest:So the person, the next person was like 23 years old.
Guest:So I was like suddenly in an adult environment kind of by myself.
Marc:And was there a racial tension?
No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, not in the same way.
Guest:You know, my experience of being black in Mexico was being a fascinating oddity.
Guest:So I kind of felt like the Venus hot and tot.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like people would stop and like look at me and I had braids, so they want to take pictures with me.
Guest:I had that kind of experience, which was amazing.
Guest:Kind of weird, but also kind of affirming because I'd grown up in a colorist environment where, unfortunately, in Kenya, we kind of adhere to, at least back then, more so than now, European standards of beauty.
Guest:So the lighter you are, the more valued you are.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And there's tons of us who are dark in Kenya.
Guest:Do not get it twisted, but still.
Guest:So the colorism that I experienced had done a number on my self-esteem and my confidence.
Guest:And then I went to Mexico and I was having the extreme opposite experience where all of a sudden everybody wants to take pictures of me and they think I'm beautiful.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:What is happening?
Guest:But that must have been good.
Guest:It was good, and it was also not great.
Guest:A little weird.
Guest:Yeah, because I was kind of objectified as well.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:By men, and so it was weird.
Guest:I didn't have the protections of my parents.
Guest:I was really trying to forge my own way, figure it out.
Guest:And not speaking the language was tough in the beginning, you know, because you couldn't express simple things.
Guest:Like, I remember seeing a sunset that was so beautiful, and I was just like...
Guest:I can't say it.
Guest:And so I kind of like held on to learning Spanish became a survival tactic.
Marc:I guess that's probably the best way to learn.
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:And after a month of being there, I actually made a pact with myself that I wouldn't utter another word of English to anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that I could really, really learn the language.
Guest:And it worked?
Guest:And it paid off.
Guest:Yeah, it did.
Guest:Do you speak regularly?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm losing it because I don't speak regularly and I don't have people in my life that I can speak to on a regular basis.
Marc:Well, you're in L.A., so you might be able to get a little more use out of it.
Guest:I can, but sometimes when you see me, the Mexicans don't think I speak Spanish.
Guest:So sometimes it can come across as me insulting their ability to speak English.
Marc:Is that a projection or you know that to be true?
Guest:I mean, I know because when I speak in Spanish, they respond in English.
Guest:That will tell me, sis, leave us alone.
Guest:We speak English.
Marc:We're not part of your experiment.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Your practice.
Guest:Your practice from Duolingo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good that whatever you experienced in Mexico wasn't hostile.
Marc:You know, because I don't know.
Marc:And the racism in Kenya sounds different.
Guest:Yeah, it's internal.
Guest:Colorism is a discrimination within a racial community, right?
Guest:In a modernist racial community.
Guest:And it's still insidious.
Guest:It is the cousin of racism.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:So it's insidious and it's harmful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It seems like colorism happens here, too, within the black community.
Marc:Like I saw a comic the other night.
Marc:She's very funny and very raw.
Marc:But she's a black lesbian comic.
Marc:And she was talking about Kamala, you know, and there's part of her that thinks like, I'm not going to listen to some light skin.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't like I don't live in that reality with that perspective, but I'd never heard it before.
Marc:And it's a it's a real thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's a real thing in more than just the black community.
Guest:The Latinx community experiences it.
Guest:Asian communities experience it.
Guest:It's a vestige of white supremacy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's interesting that the dominant object of adoration is lighter skin.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because it is akin to whiteness.
Marc:And people who are that believe that as well.
Guest:Well, yeah, but also the thing about colorism is that its origins have been forgotten.
Guest:So it just becomes almost like cultural, and oftentimes people don't know that they're being colorist, right?
Guest:That's why it's so insidious, because you have been conditioned to value this thing, and you don't remember where it came from anymore.
Marc:Where did it come from?
Marc:Colonization?
Guest:Yeah, colonization.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the idea that, you know, even in America where there was a lot of delineating between lighter skinned enslaved people and darker skinned enslaved people, the lighter skinned people were the ones in the houses and had more privileges than the darker ones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Those kinds of things.
Guest:Racism that has come along with colonialism and slavery and all of that has affected how we see ourselves.
Guest:And the issue is that now the people who created that system are no longer participating in it because they did such a great job that we can participate in it without their knowledge.
Guest:It becomes internalized.
Guest:Yes, it's totally internalized.
Marc:Well, yeah, because in Mexico there is that sort of lighter skin, like the indigenous versus the Spanish.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Also colonialism.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that is a conversation that I was not knowledgeable about because when you grow up in the States, it's all about slavery.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And colonialism is all everywhere else in terms of what comes out of Europe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's a different mindset around how the racism works.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:And yet it's the same.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Ultimately, it's the same.
Guest:Ultimately, it's the same.
Guest:The ingredients may look different, but it's the same.
Marc:But it's people coming in as a people be as opposed to people being taken.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But they're still able because they are the ones setting the rules.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They're still able to very much affect on a large scale how the majority see themselves as inferior.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So when you go back to Kenya, how do you decide where to go to college?
Guest:Well, another thing that we experience a lot in Kenya is brain drain, where, you know, the educated class often leaves.
Guest:The expectation is that you leave to go to college.
Guest:So it was always expected I would leave and go somewhere.
Marc:But the idea is that hopefully you come back.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Hopefully you come back.
Guest:But, yeah, it's too bad that, you know, we all felt like...
Guest:We didn't have what we needed in the country itself.
Guest:So I always knew I would go somewhere.
Guest:And my dad went to school here.
Guest:He went to the University of Chicago.
Guest:So he had history in America and he also had colleagues he had worked with in Mexico in America.
Marc:He went there for government?
Guest:Yeah, he studied economics and political science.
Marc:That was a big program at one time, the University of Chicago.
Marc:I think that there was a generation of economic thinkers that came out of there that were problematic, but it was a good school.
Marc:So he was sort of like, you got to go to the States.
Marc:Why not go?
Guest:Well, no, it was just because of his history in America, we had connections with professors who could recommend schools and that sort of thing.
Guest:And I have family here as well.
Guest:And because of my interest in acting, my hidden interest in acting, it felt like a good idea to apply to schools here.
Guest:I applied to schools in the UK and Australia as well, but I ended up coming here.
Marc:Where'd you go?
Guest:I went to Hampshire College to start.
Marc:Hampshire and Amherst?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's sort of like, you know, decide your own major and kind of hang out.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No GPAs, no exams.
Marc:That's one of those hippie schools.
Marc:No majors.
Guest:Very hippie.
Marc:There's like two of them.
Marc:There's Reed in Hampshire.
Marc:Reed's in Oregon.
Marc:And then there's Hampshire.
Marc:But it was right there in the middle of all those other colleges like Mount Holyoke and Amherst is there.
Guest:And Smith.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And UMass.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:The five college consortium.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's pretty out there.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's beautiful.
Marc:So you went to Hampshire.
Guest:I went to Hampshire of all places.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:But it must have been kind of amazing because in terms of, you know, personal expression, I mean, it was all about that, wasn't it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I had a very conflicted experience in Hampshire on the one hand because I come from real like rigid structure.
Guest:Discipline.
Guest:And discipline in school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In Kenya.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I kind of learned how to do things by a book.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And be told by professors.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:What to do.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:But I guess I was kind of made for Hampshire because I remember in high school questioning my teacher.
Guest:I had written an answer to an exam question and it wasn't exactly what he wanted me to say.
Guest:And I said, but I questioned his reasoning and he said, the pizza...
Guest:High school is where you just do what you're told.
Guest:You can ask questions in college.
Marc:When you're a grown up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So anyway, so at Hampshire, all you did was ask questions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was unnerving for me because I needed a way to measure how I was doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't get that.
Guest:And I had to kind of like self-generate.
Guest:motivation oh that's interesting and all that and so it was really scary for me but I think it's really what has really set me up for who I've become because I had to really learn how to be resourceful and motivate myself and confident and confident yeah
Marc:I mean, like that's daring.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's all of it.
Marc:Like if you're putting yourself out there and no one's going like, good job, you know, work on this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All you're left with is like you have to get past that.
Marc:Like, was I terrible?
Guest:You have to self-evaluate.
Guest:You have to set your own goals, reach them and then analyze how you did.
Guest:You have to really, really depend on yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how was the training there?
Guest:Well, it was interesting.
Guest:I mean, you know, I graduated and I had a 78-minute documentary that I'd created as my final thesis project.
Guest:But I also graduated with a woman whose final thesis project was an exhibit of trash.
Guest:So it's like, whoa.
Guest:It was very hard to gauge what I'd actually gained in school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess whatever, like, you know, after four years, like someone just makes some shoes or something or, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we both get the same degree.
Guest:So it was like, OK, let's see what I can do in the real world.
Guest:That's going to be the test of whether I learned anything or not.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're you're sort of innate discipline and you're you know, you're persistence.
Marc:At least you expected more out of yourself than trash.
Guest:Oh, yes, I did.
Guest:I required more of myself.
Marc:You weren't trying to get away with something.
Guest:Absolutely not.
Guest:No.
Guest:I have always valued my education.
Guest:I love learning.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:And that's why I think I'm an actor because I'm constantly learning.
Marc:Well, yeah, because, you know, you're always introduced with new ideas.
Marc:And, you know, if you have good material, you can really go places you would never have gone before.
Marc:What was the documentary about?
Yeah.
Guest:It was about the experience of having albinism in Kenya.
Guest:It was called In My Genes.
Guest:What?
Guest:I had a neighbor who had albinism, and I didn't understand her, and I was kind of secretly kind of maybe afraid of her, but knew better than to show that I was afraid of her.
Guest:And you're fascinated.
Guest:But I know what happened was she started an albinism society of Kenya.
Guest:And my mother went to the first meeting.
Guest:My mother is a very curious person as well.
Guest:And in the meeting, they were talking about the discrimination that they have being people with albinism in Kenya and.
Guest:They're considered bad omens.
Guest:Sometimes there's a myth that, you know, to sleep with a person with albinism can cure AIDS.
Guest:And they are considered to be products of affairs with white people.
Guest:And they were talking about the discrimination of having this, you know, lack of pigment.
Guest:And what I realized when I went back home from and was looking for a project to work on for my final thesis is that we, me being dark skinned and them being light skinned, we were kind of experiencing similar discriminations.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:In our own country and with our own people.
Guest:And so I thought and I was also so embarrassed about how little I knew about my neighbor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I thought maybe this is a great way for me to learn and teach other people as I go along.
Guest:So I went about making the documentary.
Guest:How did it come out?
Guest:Good.
Guest:It came out good.
Guest:Yeah, it came out really good.
Guest:It got into some festivals around the world.
Guest:And it really helped the Albinism Society of Kenya.
Guest:The albinism community at the time, they were included in our next census so that we could know where they were in the country so that they could get the services they need.
Marc:And there's a lot of them?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, we have a significant number.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I don't see many here with that.
Guest:Well, it depends on what gene pool you're working from.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So the smaller the community, the higher the chances that the gene will prevail.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So because we still have quite regional communities, you will find more people with albinism in some than others.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And what about the idea of the bad omen situation or the cure for AIDS thing?
Marc:How much does, I'm assuming, tribal mysticism still exist within the Christianity?
Guest:For sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Those two things, they dance together all the time.
Marc:That must be kind of fascinating.
Guest:Well, it makes for a unique life experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But within your family, was that your experience in that there was holdovers from a different type of cultural belief system?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:You can...
Guest:Christianity did quite the number on our cultural identities, but we have never lost them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, yes, we still have indigenous knowledge and practices, and we participate in them.
Guest:We have very contradicting—we hold very contradicting beliefs as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and—
Marc:I guess I guess everybody does, but not with the support of, you know, a more ancient community of ideas.
Marc:You know, a lot of people like behave a certain way within Christianity, but it's not, you know, the practice of I guess it's in, you know, I'm just, you know, American Jew.
Marc:So it doesn't you know, I don't like that identity is it doesn't work the same way for you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But because the concussion of colonialism is so recent.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:And it was so sudden.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:It's hard for the indigenous to just fall away completely.
Guest:And if anything, there's a lot of tension because we live in a dichotomy of consciousness.
Marc:But the Christianity came...
Marc:See, it's hard for me with belief systems because my brain doesn't quite work that way.
Marc:But I imagine it was some sort of reign of terror that landed that stuff.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So after Hampshire, you start acting or you—
Guest:Well, I went back to Kenya after Hampshire.
Guest:I spent about a year in New York doing administrative work and hating it.
Guest:And I just had a crisis of like, okay, what do I want to do with my life?
Guest:I was on a visa, so that ran out, and I decided to go back home to figure it out.
Guest:And while I was there, my mom challenged me to sit with myself and ask myself some really hard questions.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And in that process, I finally admitted to myself and out loud that I wanted to be an actor.
Guest:And I told her, and she said, I've known that since you were three.
Marc:Three.
Guest:And the next thing was to, I decided that if I wanted to be an actor, I wanted to learn my instrument as best I could.
Guest:And so I applied to the top three drama schools in the U.S.
Marc:At Juilliard, Yale, and...
Guest:Actually, I didn't apply to Juilliard.
Guest:Actually, that is one of the top three.
Guest:I applied to NYU, Yale, and UCSD.
Marc:Oh, is that a big one?
Guest:Yes, it is.
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you got into Yale.
Guest:I got into all three and I went to Yale.
Marc:That's a pretty good pedigree, right?
Guest:Yeah, it doesn't hurt at all.
Marc:It was pretty competitive and rough?
Guest:It was pretty competitive.
Guest:It was competitive.
Guest:But I just come from so far away, I didn't have time to think about the competition.
Guest:I was just like, I'm going in there, I'm going to do my best and forget the rest.
Guest:And luckily I got in and I got to choose which school I went to, which was such...
Guest:Such a humbling experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, I didn't have the confidence.
Guest:I didn't know what I had, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I got into Yale and it was one of the best three years of my life, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But did you do a lot of different plays?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did a lot of different plays.
Guest:I did a lot of Shakespeare.
Guest:I did a lot of original plays from the playwrights.
Guest:Oh, that must have been exciting.
Guest:I did Chekhov.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How are you with Shakespeare?
Guest:Are you good?
Guest:I'm good, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I hope so.
Guest:Well, you can see I'll be on stage next year.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Doing what?
Guest:Yeah, I'm doing Shakespeare in the Park in New York.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Twelfth Night, my favorite.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's fucking exciting.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I haven't been on stage for a long time.
Guest:It'll be nine years next year.
Marc:Since you've been on stage?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Since you've got to memorize like that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As opposed to kind of scene for scene?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And knowing that you'll get at least a dozen shots at it?
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, I'm hoping that I trained in theater.
Guest:And so that is where my, you know, like I'm hoping my DNA will remember.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It will, you know, it will out of necessity.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Survival.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when did you start getting work?
Guest:Well, I actually booked 12 years a slave before I graduated from Yale.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In my third year as I was preparing for 12 years.
Marc:So you had representation?
Marc:They came and found you?
Marc:I did.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I had a manager.
Guest:I didn't have an agent yet, but I had a manager.
Guest:And she was the one who brought the audition to my attention.
Guest:And yes, and I auditioned for it while I was in school.
Guest:I did quite a few auditions and I booked the job before I graduated.
Marc:And that must have been when you read that script.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that must have been like, oh, my God.
Guest:I was so terrified of that script because it was so deeply moving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I knew that he was just so powerful.
Guest:I hadn't, since Roots, I hadn't seen a story this visceral about the slavery experience in America.
Guest:And the people attached were so powerful and persuasive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did have one fear, though, being typecast.
Guest:I was definitely afraid of that.
Guest:Coming out the gate, playing a slave, and then the thought that that might be all I play for the rest of my career.
Marc:It's interesting because that fear exists even with something that was as characterologically thorough as
Guest:as that script you know it wasn't like you weren't you weren't playing a prop or or it didn't lack depth no but but you were still nervous well yeah because in school as we were preparing to leave we were meeting with industry professionals yeah and one of the things they would tell us is that the industry has no imagination yeah
Guest:So there is the risk of being typecast.
Guest:Like whatever you're known to do, chances are that's what they will come to you to do.
Guest:So being able to, if possible, play a role in making sure to break people's expectations of you as soon and as often as you can.
Guest:And because that was my first point.
Guest:My first role, first of all, I didn't expect to get such a significant role to begin with.
Guest:I was expecting to go and be on Law & Order for a number of episodes or something.
Guest:That's what they had prepared us for.
Guest:They had prepared us to hear a whole lot.
Guest:Get ready for procedurals.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had been prepared to hear a whole lot more no's before yes.
Guest:And I guess that was their way of managing our expectations because being an actor can be quite unforgiving.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's interesting because they're speaking in a general way.
Marc:But, you know, as a woman and as a black woman, then your pool is even smaller.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And therefore higher chances of being cast.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it was a real it was a real I feel like calculated fear on my part.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And, you know, I just crossed my fingers and said, you know, looking at the director who was involved in the caliber of work that we were doing, hopefully I wouldn't be typecast.
Guest:But, you know, guess what?
Guest:Once the movie was out, I got offered a whole lot of slave roles.
Guest:You did?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:But the recognition you got as an actor was as high as you can really get to win an Oscar.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:But also, coming from what you came from, which was specifically colonialism, and then having to live in this other experience of violent, horrible, systemic racism, when you're thinking about putting that character together, did you have an experience with it that was...
Marc:Surprising and awful.
Guest:You know.
Guest:I'm going to.
Guest:I am eternally grateful for the opportunity to play Patsy.
Guest:Because what having that role did for me is that it personalized American history.
Guest:It was no longer—I was able to come here because of the gains of African people in America and their ability to resist and overcome that period of time.
Guest:And so me being able to walk in those shoes gave me such a humility—
Guest:That I just simply didn't have.
Guest:When you're from Africa, unfortunately, one of the ways in which colonialism is insidious is that we are not taught about other colonial experiences.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:When I was in school, I was learning about Britain and I was learning about kings and queens there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was learning about Reagan and Truman and that sort of thing.
Guest:And African-American history was a footnote.
Guest:And so when I came to the U.S., my understanding of African-America was very limited.
Guest:And it was informed by...
Guest:mainly TV, in which there were very stereotypical portrayals of African Americans.
Guest:And so to have a crash course on American history, this African American history in such a personal way, made it so that I learned it viscerally and I can never unlearn it.
Guest:It's become a part of me in a way that I think...
Guest:perhaps makes me a more responsible immigrant.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But also a fairly unique American experience, right?
Marc:So I guess that's what you're saying in a way, that the education that came was, you know, deeply rooted in American history.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Do you have an American passport now as well?
Yeah.
Guest:Let's say I'm going to vote.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Well, that's like I don't I can't even like that movie was, you know, devastating.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's parts of it, weird parts of it that I can't ever get out of my brain.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:You and me both.
Guest:You know, my dad came to the premiere and afterwards he was silent and I asked him, so what did you think?
Guest:And he said, you know, that movie made our fight for liberation look like a dinner party.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's facts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It really does.
Guest:It makes it so personal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and and visceral and three dimensional.
Guest:It's no longer what I'm so proud of that movie because it makes it not like you're not learning about the past over yonder.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're learning about something that just feels so much more present.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the truth is that history is always present, you know, and it's and we see it playing roles in today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to think of it as historical and back there is how it ends up being possible again.
Guest:You know, that kind of divisive way of living and structuring a society.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was it was an amazing bit of work you did there.
Marc:And that movie is amazing.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And as you went through, so you were able to avoid the typecasting, it seems.
Guest:Well, I worked very hard at that.
Guest:And as I said, like I remember one of the first roles I got offered after winning the Academy Award was like, this is a movie set on a slave ship.
Yeah.
Guest:So you're an African on your way to America.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Guest:And so I it was hard because like you had to turn down stuff.
Guest:I had to turn down stuff.
Guest:And I didn't yet have a resume that that I could lean back on to say that, you know, lightning will strike in this pan again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, winning an Academy Award for my first feature film was the ultimate blessing and also kind of a curse because suddenly I'm at the pinnacle of my career, but I've just begun.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the feeling of like imposter syndrome and like, can I really do this?
Guest:Am I really as good an actor as they've made me out to be?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And will I ever have another role that is rich and meaty, you know, was a real question.
Guest:And the industry I knew was not designed for me.
Guest:They weren't waiting for me.
Guest:They weren't stacks of scripts that had been waiting for me, you know.
Guest:And so it was a real fear.
Guest:And so when these roles came along,
Guest:I really had to exercise a lot of faith in saying no and believing that something would come along that would give me a step in the right direction.
Guest:And which one was it?
Guest:Well, to begin with, I decided to do Star Wars.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And Star Wars has a big name.
Guest:It has a lot of name recognition.
Guest:But I got to play Maz Kanata.
Guest:And I remember at the time, everybody was like, wait, what?
Guest:She's not even going to be herself in a movie?
Yeah.
Guest:But for me, I needed that.
Guest:I needed to retreat for a moment.
Guest:To the future.
Guest:I needed, yeah.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:I needed to retreat and like, I guess maybe even hide.
Marc:But also probably have a good time.
Guest:Yeah, have a good time.
Guest:But really what attracted me to that role was that I didn't have to live in my own body.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I had it had been such an incredibly just roller coaster ride.
Guest:of the awards season where it wasn't just the movie, it was also fashion and my dark skin and my natural hair and people pontificating about what my future could look like in an industry that had traditionally not embraced someone that looked like me and all these pundits kind of speaking about my future in a way that made me feel like a theory in a book.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I tried to deafen my ears to all of it, but I still received it, you know.
Guest:And I was going through so much change in my life that I just needed a beat.
Guest:I needed a moment to catch up with my new reality.
Guest:I remember like I'd been taking subways and all of a sudden I couldn't.
Guest:Like all of a sudden I was being chased by paparazzi at the airport.
Guest:It was like night and day and I just didn't know how to navigate this new world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So Star Wars is a chance for me to still work and to work with great people but not be myself.
Guest:Like really just not be myself.
Marc:Like take a breather almost.
Guest:Just a breather.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I did that.
Guest:And it was – I remember people saying, you need to strike while the iron is hot.
Guest:You have to go and get that lead role.
Guest:But Emma Thompson sat me down and said, you do what your spirit leads you to do.
Guest:If you need to do a play, go and do a play.
Guest:Because you have to be the driver of your own life.
Guest:And if you do what people tell you to do, you're going to lose yourself.
Guest:And the industry will always be there.
Guest:And so...
Guest:Very unpopularly, I went from Star Wars to doing a play on Broadway.
Marc:Which one was that?
Guest:It was Eclipsed by Danai Gurira.
Marc:How was that?
Marc:Great.
Guest:It was wonderful.
Guest:It saved me.
Guest:It really did, because it was a chance for me to go back to what I really knew.
Guest:And on stage, you are in charge.
Guest:You are in charge of your whole character's arc.
Guest:Yes, you work with a director and your cast and all that.
Guest:But when that play opens, you get to be, you are the one with the agency to tell the story.
Guest:And I needed that.
Guest:I needed to remind myself that I had what it takes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that it was what I had that got me to that position of being able to perform and win an Academy Award.
Guest:That I did have the talent.
Guest:And that the accolades didn't make me a good actor.
Guest:That I had the instrument to do the work.
Guest:And so it really, I gained a lot of confidence that.
Marc:And also self-awareness.
Guest:And self-awareness.
Guest:And in this new context of being a celebrity, it was really great to go back to that.
Guest:And the cast was amazing.
Guest:It was a real collaborative experience.
Guest:And yeah, I felt powerful on stage in a way that I had been dwarfed by my own achievements lately.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if you hadn't done that, you could have just kind of lost touch with yourself.
Guest:I could have lost touch with myself and I could have started to seek validation from outside of me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because, you know, awards and red carpets, those are ego trips.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that's where people are saying, oh, my God, we love you.
Guest:We adore you.
Guest:We worship you.
Guest:All that sort of stuff.
Guest:And it's so easy to get seduced by that.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I bet.
Guest:And for that to be your source of value.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the truth is you're not going to get that all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, you're just not.
Guest:It could all go away very quickly, very quickly.
Guest:And I really just didn't want to be victim to that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then like, but how was it like to do?
Marc:I just was thinking in my brain just now that like the almost the spectrum opposite.
Marc:of 12 Years a Slave is the Black Panther movies.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's almost like, you know, in a perfect world.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:If this hadn't happened.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And I loved that about Black Panther.
Guest:Oh, I bet.
Guest:Because it's aspirational.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was, you know, as an African, I live with the tension of having lost...
Guest:Having fundamentally lost a part of myself through colonialism and the valuing of culture that isn't of my own.
Guest:And I can't get it back.
Guest:I cannot.
Guest:I can try, but I cannot get it back because so much of it was deliberately erased, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And beaten out of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that – I often think about what would we have been if we hadn't had to switch gears to appreciate capitalism and – And Christianity.
Guest:And, you know, and this urban development and modernity as it is prescribed by a Western world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Black Panther was a chance to live that dream.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Live that thought.
Marc:It must have been such an amazing set to be on.
Guest:It really, really was.
Guest:It was hard work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There was a lot of fear, of course, because the studio was taking a chance.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doing this all black superhero movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was definitely fear.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We felt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then even for us just being like, we've got to get this right.
Guest:You know, we cannot fail.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because all too often we hear the lie that black material doesn't sell.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, that it's not a black experience is not a global experience.
Guest:And we had to prove it wrong.
Guest:And so there was just like there was a feeling of ownership and determination on that set.
Guest:Yeah, that was just it was like, oh, that's great.
Marc:And I imagine like the community vibe was like intense.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was vibes on vibes on vibes, community vibes.
Guest:And it permeated not just the main cast, even the extras.
Guest:I remember when we were filming in the waterfall, the coronation of the king.
Guest:And we were on this cliff.
Guest:And all of us had to be like tethered to the cliff so that we wouldn't fall off.
Guest:But it was like, so it was a sea of people that were in for a few days.
Guest:And there were drummers that were drumming.
Guest:And we were all just vibing to the drums between takes.
Guest:And at one point we all started singing Snoop Doggy Dog's Drop It Like It's Hot.
Guest:And it was just so, oh, it was so thrilling.
Guest:And I looked around and I was like, man.
Guest:These people have left their lives to be here, to be extras.
Guest:They're going to be this tiny when the film comes out.
Guest:They probably won't even be seen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But to see the joy they had in wearing the African garb and learning the traditions of Wakanda and chanting along, oh, it just felt so electrifying.
Marc:Oh, it's beautiful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it was hugely popular.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And then the loss of, you know, Chadwick was devastating.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And I mean, how did that affect that community of that group when it happened?
Marc:Were you all in touch?
Guest:You know, we had.
Guest:Yeah, we were.
Guest:And I mean, we have been in touch recently.
Guest:Over the years, we were definitely in touch.
Guest:Like, the main cast, we were in touch.
Guest:But it wasn't like we were in touch on a regular basis.
Marc:Right, sure, of course, yeah.
Guest:It was like, I know you're there.
Guest:If I need you, I got you, you know, sort of thing.
Marc:But it seems like one of those movies where, unlike a lot of movies, it was more than just a job.
Guest:No, it was definitely more than just a job.
Guest:And we have definitely, like, we, there is that kindred spirit.
Guest:Like, we will always have Black Panther.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, there's that feeling of like alumni.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Chadwick died in 2020 when nobody was seeing nobody.
Guest:Like, right?
Guest:We were all at home.
Guest:It was very isolating.
Guest:And it was truly devastating.
Guest:And, you know, he hadn't told any of us what was going on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Obviously, he had been changing and we had noted that.
Guest:We saw him and we noted it, but we didn't know what was going on.
Guest:And I, for one, I wanted to respect his privacy.
Guest:He was a very private guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, he would tell you what he wanted to tell you.
Guest:He wouldn't tell you the rest.
Guest:And so I knew, but I didn't know.
Guest:I definitely didn't know he was on his way out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the news came to me just like it did to everybody else.
Guest:I had no heads up.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I was lost.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Grief is brutal.
Yeah.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:It's amazing how easily you can feel it again.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It is one of the... It is part of the human experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'm sorry for your loss.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Let's talk about the children's book.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:What a pivot.
Wow.
Marc:To ease the situation.
Marc:Because I've had some grief in my life, too.
Marc:And I know because of the nature of it that if we don't pivot, there's going to be a weird way to trail off.
Marc:A couple of people crying.
Guest:I know, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Makes for great listeners.
Marc:I just thought the children's book was an interesting departure.
Marc:But we can talk about us as well, because I love that movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm happy to talk about it all.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But like because I know Jordan, you know, and I know that, again, the experience in terms of I would think a black experience was as profound in a way to be, you know, part of a cast that was doing something that was it's a very artful movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's great.
Guest:I think it's a great transition from Black Panther to us.
Guest:Because while we were making Black Panther, Get Out came out.
Guest:And I went to watch it on opening night.
Guest:I watched it with a producer friend of mine.
Guest:And I was so blown away that I went back to set.
Guest:We were working with Daniel Kaluuya, obviously.
Guest:I went back to set and I evangelized about Get Out.
Guest:I got the cast together.
Guest:And we went back to the cinema and watched it together.
Guest:And then we headed to a bar and spoke about it for like four hours.
Guest:Really?
Guest:We were blown away.
Guest:And then I watched it four more times in the theater.
Guest:I was so blown away by that movie and how much it was about me.
Guest:While still being just straight up fun.
Guest:A horror movie, yeah.
Guest:Yes, a horror movie, straight up fun.
Guest:If you didn't want to go deep, you didn't have to.
Guest:You could still enjoy yourself.
Guest:But if you did want to go deep, you could really get into it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so...
Guest:I was just like, wow, wouldn't it be great to work with Jordan Peele?
Guest:And then cut to Jordan is reaching out, wants to have lunch with me and talk to me.
Guest:And I remember when I met with him, he said, I have a project.
Guest:I don't know, but I'll keep you.
Guest:I'll let you know.
Guest:And then months later, I got the script and the offer to play this role.
Guest:And I was just like, oh.
Guest:I get to be in Jordan Peele's sophomore movie and I get to play two roles?
Guest:What?
Guest:Christmas is early.
Guest:And yeah, so it was a dream come true rather quickly.
Guest:And it was such a, it was a great acting workout.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it was like it must have been challenging in a way that was different.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because it really is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Those movies, you know, and I'm not a huge horror guy, but my girlfriend is into it.
Marc:So I watch more now.
Marc:You can really do some art.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, it is such an imaginative genre.
Guest:And it's playful.
Guest:It's larger than life.
Guest:So you can really go places.
Guest:And it gets deep.
Guest:It really does get deep.
Guest:I'm not a horror person either, to be honest.
Guest:But I do love scaring people.
Guest:So that was my motivation for doing it.
Marc:Now you're recognized on the street for scaring people.
Guest:Yes, and I love it.
Marc:So this...
Marc:Quiet Place movie, like I've seen Coming Attractions.
Marc:I feel like I haven't seen the other one, so I don't know really what it's about.
Marc:But it looks menacing and exhausting to do as an actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like just a trailer.
Marc:I'm watching.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Right from out of the gate, you're just like terrified all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you sussed that out sooner than I did because when I read the script, I loved the script and I wanted to do it.
Guest:And then I got on set and I was like, yo, this is going to be tiring.
Marc:And it was.
Marc:I can't imagine.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had amnesia for some reason.
Guest:I remember making us and just thinking, it is really...
Guest:An impossible thing to ask someone to be scared all day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really hard to hold that tension all day.
Guest:Yeah, I can't imagine.
Guest:And then I forgot and went and signed up to do another horror movie and do the same thing, and this time underweight.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But it came out good?
Yeah.
Guest:It did.
Guest:It did.
Guest:I'm very, very proud of it.
Guest:It was a lot of fun to make.
Guest:Very, very taxing, for sure.
Guest:But I grew a lot.
Guest:I fell in love with Cats making the movie.
Marc:Yeah, what was this problem with Cats you had?
Guest:I had a fear of Cats my whole life.
Marc:What was that?
Marc:People are weird about Cats.
Guest:I was very weird about Cats.
Marc:Like in what way?
Guest:So it came from when I was really little.
Guest:I was learning how to walk.
Guest:We lived and we had these steps and I would scoot my butt down the steps and we had this black hat that would come and scratch me and I would tumble down the steps.
Guest:And it seemed to happen every day.
Guest:It probably happened like maybe three times.
Marc:Yeah, but when you're a kid.
Marc:But when you're a kid, it's forever.
Guest:And so I developed a real fear of cats.
Guest:And then I had a girlfriend who had 13 cats.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:And it would just terrify me all the time.
Guest:And so I just did it.
Guest:And a lot of people have superstitious beliefs about cats.
Guest:And they think they're bad omens.
Guest:And they're just like bad spirits.
Guest:And I kind of had those beliefs myself.
Guest:So I just couldn't be around them.
Guest:But then I fell in love with the script.
Guest:And I really wanted to play Samir.
Guest:And she owned a cat.
Guest:I tried to get the director to change the animal.
Guest:He wouldn't do it.
Guest:And so I was like, okay, this is the opportunity for me to face my fear.
Marc:And I did.
Marc:And was there a person that they hired to do this?
Guest:Correct.
Guest:They did.
Guest:I went through exposure therapy.
Guest:Yeah, they brought some cats over to me.
Marc:Is that on camera?
Marc:You should have made that into a short documentary.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:Thank goodness there is no evidence of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:OK, so now tell me about this this children's book, because that seems like a very personal like I'm curious about children's books.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like so how does that work?
Marc:Because it is kind of a memoir in a way.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's a magical memoir.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's it called?
Guest:It's called Sulwe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It means star in my mother tongue.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what is it about?
Guest:It's about a little girl who is uncomfortable in her own skin.
Guest:She's born the color of midnight and she has a sister that's the color of midday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's really about colorism.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she doesn't like her skin and goes through a magical journey in the night to find self-worth and self-love.
Yeah.
Marc:Now, when you set out to do that story, you wrote the story?
Marc:I did.
Marc:And then you look for it.
Marc:Did you know who you wanted to animate it?
Guest:Well, I found the illustrator on Instagram.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was looking for an illustrator whose managing of light I liked because it is about Garoscuro.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I really liked how she drew light.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it worked out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how did it do out there?
Guest:It did really well.
Guest:We made it to number one on the New York Times bestseller list for a number of weeks there.
Guest:And it's well-loved, and I feel so proud of that.
Marc:Well, the beautiful thing about children's books, unlike a lot of books, is that they last forever.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:If they're in the – what's the word I want?
Marc:The – is it Pantheon or the – Zeitgeist?
Marc:No, just like if it is a book that children read for generations.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:It can become canonic, I suppose.
Marc:Yes, the canon.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Marc:That was a great conversation.
Marc:I'm glad we did it.
Guest:Yeah, thank you.
Marc:Did we cover?
Marc:Oh, there was something else?
Guest:Oh, the podcast.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, let's do that.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I have a podcast coming out.
Guest:It's called Mind Your Own.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:And it's a storytelling podcast, all from the African perspective.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you're talking to other Africans?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I had this idea for years and years because I've been homesick and I wanted to hear stories from the continent the way I hear stories from podcasts like This American Life and Self Judgment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, yeah, I wanted to make a podcast where I could share a little bit of my own stories and also invite people to share there.
Guest:So we have— Old stories or personal stories?
Marc:Personal.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:For me, personal, and for them, personal.
Guest:Very personal stories about different ways of what it means to belong.
Marc:Oh, that's beautiful.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, good luck with that.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And have fun doing Shakespeare.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Big world, big life, big brain.
Marc:What a great conversation.
Marc:Again, Lupita's podcast comes out September 19th.
Marc:It's called Mind Your Own.
Marc:She's also in the new film, The Wild Robot, in theater September 27th.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:Okay, gang, if you want the next Ask Mark Anything bonus episode, don't forget to sign up for the full Marin.
Marc:The new one drops tomorrow, and I always get a lot of interesting questions like this one.
Marc:If asked to do so, would you ever host an awards show?
Marc:You know, I'm not great at that kind of stuff, but, you know, usually it's pretty prompter heavy, and I might be able to make it my own.
Marc:But, you know, I generally think I'm not...
Marc:I wouldn't give what people wanted.
Marc:I'm not really a song and dance man.
Marc:I'm not particularly everyone's idea of a good time.
Marc:And it would cause me a tremendous amount of stress.
Marc:I saw Patton do it once at the Independent Spirit Awards, and it was a horrible gig.
Marc:But he showed up for it and manned up for it.
Marc:But it's a specific job, and I don't need it.
Marc:to subscribe to the full Marin so you can get bonus episodes twice a week go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on wtf plus and a reminder before we go this podcast is hosted by a cast here's a classic Marin riff from the vault of riffs the riff vault
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
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