Episode 1567 - Paul W. Downs
Guest:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's going on i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm back here i'm in los angeles back at my home hanging out for a little little uh nice chunk of time
Guest:Getting re-grounded, hanging around the house, sitting on the porch, talking to the cats, cleaning shit up, getting a little work done around the homestead.
Marc:Helpful.
Marc:Today I talked to Paul W. Downs.
Marc:He is one of the co-creators, writers, and stars of Hacks.
Marc:He plays the manager.
Marc:Guy's very funny.
Marc:He's nominated for Emmys for this year for both writing on the show and as a supporting actor.
Marc:It's weird because I should have talked to him a while ago.
Marc:It was interesting because he was he was the first person ever pitched to us from the show from Hacks.
Marc:But we thought it would be a little weird.
Marc:to have this female-led show written and co-created by women.
Marc:And the first person we had on from it would be the one guy involved in the development.
Marc:So we've since had Jen Statsky on and Hannah Einbinder on.
Marc:So now it was Paul's turn.
Marc:And I didn't really know this guy, but he seems like a funny guy.
Marc:I love the show.
Marc:It's an astounding accomplishment.
Marc:in comedy writing.
Marc:It really is.
Marc:It's really great.
Marc:And as a comic, watching a show about comics, hard to get that right.
Marc:And I know it's tricky to have somebody acting the part of a stand-up, but she does it, Gene does it great.
Marc:And, you know, there's always going to be a little something that's, you know, a real comic, a stand-up comic has that comic-ness that is, you know, ingrained in their soul.
Marc:And I know that.
Marc:But in terms of like getting the life right and her getting the character right, just and he's funny.
Marc:It's a great show.
Marc:I'm 100 percent on board with that show.
Marc:And I didn't know he had a past in stand up.
Marc:I had no idea where he came up through and how in terms of the comedy world.
Marc:So that's a.
Marc:That was a fun conversation.
Marc:It was a good, had a good time.
Marc:Liked the guy.
Marc:Good guy.
Marc:Funny guy.
Marc:You can hear it in a few minutes.
Marc:I'll be in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on Friday, September 20th.
Marc:Then I'm in Phoenix at the Orpheum Theater on Saturday, September 21st.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets and get dates for the shows that were rescheduled in 2025.
Marc:So my ego up in Vancouver is contracted into something Canadian, I think, just because I have that weird innately codependent symbiotic connection that just happens without any awareness of mine until I'm in it with any culture, place, person.
Marc:It just happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, feeling that small and feeling like just me is not great.
Marc:It turns out like I'm fucking and I don't know if you know this, but I'm plagued with anxiety.
Marc:I'm constantly future tripping.
Marc:I'm worried about bullshit.
Marc:If I have any free time in my head, I'll fill it with worry about things that don't even exist.
Marc:It's almost like a hobby.
Marc:And I don't think I can do anything.
Marc:I don't think I can do anything.
Marc:And that's just one step away from I think I suck at everything.
Marc:There's the idea that sort of like no matter what I've been doing my whole life, somehow or another, it's been a couple weeks, I can't do it anymore.
Marc:And then the next step of that is, you know, I know I've done all these things in my life, but it turns out now that I haven't done them for three weeks, I fucking suck at everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't that great?
Marc:Such progress on a core level that I've made.
Marc:But...
Marc:generally it's not, I wouldn't call it a better angel, but my, you know, my grownup self is sort of like, dude, just, just, just, it's fine.
Marc:You'll, you'll be fine.
Marc:Well, what do you think is going to happen?
Marc:But I hadn't done comedy in what felt like weeks.
Marc:And I get on and, you know, I put in at the store cause I want to cram it in, do the fucking work, figure out where I'm at up there.
Marc:Like, it's going to change.
Marc:Like, I don't know who I am.
Marc:And I go to the store and,
Marc:And just driving into the place.
Marc:And I know I've waxed romantic about that place and about my past there.
Marc:But it's been a long time since I kind of rode out the whole night, you know.
Marc:But, you know, I get there and there's just, you know, people around, you know, all the folks.
Marc:And all of a sudden this, you know, this bearded man comes up to me like he looks like a
Marc:a prophet coming down from the mountains.
Marc:And it's old Ron White.
Marc:Hadn't seen Ron in a long time.
Marc:Certainly not since he's all gray and bearded and long-haired and sober.
Marc:Fucking Ron White, one of the greats, was just in the hallway.
Marc:And I was like, holy fuck, Ron!
Marc:You know, I give him a hug.
Marc:I hadn't seen him in a while.
Marc:I was excited to watch him.
Marc:And who else was around?
Marc:Burr was running out.
Marc:And I said, how's it going?
Marc:He goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then he storms out.
Marc:And I'm like, of course, I'm assuming he's got to be mad at me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why did you just do it?
Marc:What's he running away from me for?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:I follow him and I'm like, what's going on?
Marc:He's like, nothing.
Marc:I got to go.
Marc:Had nothing to do with me.
Marc:And then I remembered, oh, if Burr was mad at me, that is definitely a moment that he would take the time to tell me.
Marc:It's not it's not a guy is going to fuck that guy.
Marc:He'd be like, what the fuck is what was that shit?
Marc:You know, so.
Marc:So, you know, a little drama in my head.
Marc:And but like I hung around and then just got later in the night.
Marc:And it's an interesting thing about the store is like what the store is on any given night from eight o'clock to about 10, 1030.
Marc:You know, after that, it changes and.
Marc:And I'm usually gone by then.
Marc:And I'm sure I've talked about this before, but like a lot of the audience leaves and it's a little scattered.
Marc:And Blair Psaki is there who I just interviewed.
Marc:And she's got to go on after Ian Bagg.
Marc:And he's a guy who I've known probably for fucking 30 years.
Marc:And then it was pretty amazing.
Marc:It must have been like midnight.
Marc:And Sam Jay goes on.
Marc:And it's like, you know, the audience is, you know, it's small.
Marc:But, you know, and it's scattered, but they're around.
Marc:But she was just doing the thing, man.
Marc:You know, I've interviewed her.
Marc:I don't know her that well.
Marc:You know, she's a little intimidating to me.
Marc:But she was up there working shit out in a very honest but raw as fuck way.
Marc:You know, with big ideas and big honesty about her being tired of being a lesbian.
Marc:And...
Marc:And some gritty fucking funny ass details.
Marc:But like I just there was a vibe to that kind of honesty.
Marc:where you're really kind of stepping out on the ice and you're showing a part of yourself in a kind of mildly, you know, angry, fed up, but unique way in terms of, you know, what she's thinking about.
Marc:And I just hadn't seen that kind of work.
Marc:It reminded me of Patrice O'Neill, who I know, you know, she's a fan of.
Marc:And it just...
Marc:Yeah, it was it was great to see, you know, that raw shit happening in a world of garbage, in a world of false risk taking, of fake edgelords, of boring crowd work, of, you know, kind of tired or detached joke telling just to see somebody get down there and wrestle with the filth of being a person in that person's body and then kind of broadening that out.
Marc:You know, into the world at large and just reflecting in the moment about her, you know, feelings about Kamala and about, you know, black culture.
Marc:And it was just like, I don't know.
Marc:There was an honesty to it that creates a kind of electricity in the room, even though it was late and there wasn't that many people there.
Marc:Just I was so fucking thrilled.
Marc:To see that work being done.
Marc:And I'm just glad I hung out late.
Marc:And then Steve Fury goes on.
Marc:He kills.
Marc:He's fucking funny.
Marc:Just to watch.
Marc:It was Tuesday night.
Marc:You know, and to watch, you know, like late night fucking, you know, comics up there doing the work for a tired fucking crowd that's half the size it was or a quarter the size it was.
Marc:And just, you know, kind of.
Marc:Doing the real shit, you know, fucking reaching in to get the laughs, but also just, you know, there's a purity to it, an authentic.
Marc:You can't hide up there when, you know, you've got to go do the gig, do the job for a tired bunch, a small group of people.
Marc:But also you want to be funny.
Marc:But also, you know, there's once you get through with that size of crowd, there's a freedom to it.
Marc:It was great, man.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:And it felt good to be there.
Marc:But then I go home and I can't sleep.
Marc:There's just moments where I wish I knew how to get out of myself in a way that's enjoyable for, I don't know.
Marc:It's all about the comedy.
Marc:It's all about talking to people.
Marc:It's all about the dynamics in the relationship.
Marc:It's all about, you know, the cats.
Marc:But boy, my brain finds time, man.
Marc:It's a whole other parallel universe of my mind versus the reality around me.
Marc:I guess that's life.
Marc:I don't like that I have this fucking time to spin this shit around.
Marc:I mean, when does that stop?
Marc:Truth is, I guess never.
Marc:But I did enjoy the DNC.
Marc:Man, Michelle Obama kicked ass.
Marc:Barack kicked ass.
Marc:It's very exciting just to see the, you know, kind of weird, vulnerable, joyful excitement of a big, broad, diverse audience of people finally feeling represented in a way that they could get excited about and reengage their vision of just fucking basic decency.
Marc:Enough of these fucking assholes just doubling down on fucking abusive garbage.
Marc:Just basic fucking decency.
Marc:And it's just thrilling that now that there's a bunch of grownups in the room that know how to speak about things eloquently and in a way that is uplifting and and proactive, just makes the fucking other side look like a bunch of limited fucking clowns.
Marc:Without even starting shit.
Marc:It's just we were just missing that dialogue.
Marc:It's again, I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I wouldn't say I'm optimistic, but just seeing excited people trying to get back to a time where people were just basically fucking decent.
Marc:Compassionate fucking individuals in communities and whatnot.
Marc:Not just fucking angry, traumatized, unprocessed bile and grievance and entitlement and abusiveness.
Marc:Just fucking relax.
Marc:Be a fucking person.
Marc:Can we all just be fucking people who care about people?
Marc:Christ.
Marc:So that was what I got out of it.
Marc:I don't know what you got out of it.
Marc:All right, look.
Marc:Paul W. Downs is, again, very funny.
Marc:He's nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series and Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series at this year's Emmy Awards for Hacks.
Marc:And this is the first time I really talked to him or met him, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Here we go.
Yeah.
Marc:What, are we three seasons in now?
Marc:Yeah, the third season.
Marc:Yeah, I watched it.
Marc:I watched them all.
Guest:Thank you for watching.
Guest:Yeah, I don't do that often.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I've seen two episodes of everything.
Guest:So I don't finish everything myself.
Marc:Well, I think I had a lot invested in it because, you know, there's some part of me as like a lifer comic.
Yeah.
Marc:Were you like, they're going to fuck it up?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Marc:I mean, have we?
Marc:No.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Good.
Marc:It's a hard thing to do.
Marc:I mean, there's like, I don't know how you quite pulled it off, but the life of a veteran comic who has a draw, who has a Vegas residency is very specific.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was sort of a smart place to start.
Marc:Because that life is not the normal comic life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not somebody in L.A.
Marc:or living in New York.
Marc:Or on the road.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But, you know, it's alluded to that she was that.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:At some point and then does it again.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So, like, I just thought the sort of...
Marc:Getting the life right seemed pretty good because I don't know that life.
Marc:And I knew comics.
Marc:Like this comic, her character reminds me a lot of Brett Butler.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Marc:Who I knew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wish I was in touch with Brett, but it's very random.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I just knew the life.
Marc:But I don't know how the hell you got it right.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I mean, you know...
Guest:She is an amalgamation of a lot of people that we admire.
Guest:Like Joan.
Guest:Like Joan.
Guest:And there's some Phyllis Diller because she has a lot of like made up elements of her life in the beginning of her act.
Guest:And, you know, Rita Rutner and like people that are like Vegas comics.
Marc:Did you go out there?
Guest:Well, shooting we did.
Guest:And, you know, Jen was married in a drive-through chapel there.
Guest:So Jen is kind of a Vegas girl.
Guest:Jen Statsky, my co-creator, loves it there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:I didn't before we started working there.
Guest:And now you love Vegas?
Guest:Now I have an appreciation.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:An appreciation.
Guest:I mean, I wouldn't go there.
Guest:I'm not going there for a bachelor party, you know, but.
Marc:No?
Marc:Well, no.
Marc:So what is the higher tier of Vegas?
Marc:Because there's some part of me that I don't know how to have a good time in, you know, too many situations.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:So the idea of it's like, you know, come up to the penthouse after the show and a lot of people are coming by and, you know, that sort of like champagne and the glitz of it all.
Guest:i don't know that either i've only i've only been in production there truly i've been there in production and uh i went there once for a monster jam what was that like who was on that oh i don't even know it was like you know grave digger it was like monster trucks oh i went there i went there to shoot a sketch oh okay it wasn't this guilty pleasure i've never been there for pleasure to be honest i mean i try and have pleasure you know we have good meals when we're shooting there because there's great restaurants and yeah there are great shows we've seen great shows like what
Guest:I mean, you know, Adele's there now.
Guest:You know, there are people that are really, you know, you two had their show there.
Marc:Yeah, that with the sphere.
Marc:So you were there.
Marc:It was up and running.
Marc:It was up and running.
Guest:The third season.
Guest:This time it was up and running.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you go see you two there?
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:But Lucia's aunt went twice.
Guest:So I feel like I've gotten.
Guest:Your wife's aunt.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My wife's aunt went multiple times.
Marc:To see you two.
Guest:As a lot of people have.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who were, who were the comics in residency there when you were there shooting?
Marc:Were there any?
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:I mean, Carrot Top has never left.
Guest:Carrot Top is still there.
Marc:We're at the Luxor.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I, yeah, I saw him there before I interviewed him.
Guest:Oh, you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he was on the show this year or last year.
Marc:Season two.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I remember.
Marc:No season three.
Guest:God.
Marc:Season three.
Marc:They're blending together.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Even for me.
Guest:But yeah, he was on.
Marc:So I don't like, it's weird that your name, uh, Paul Downs.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:It's triggering to me for a very weird reason.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:Why?
Guest:What happened?
Marc:Well, there was this booker, and I believe it was in Boston when I was starting out.
Marc:There was a booker who booked a comedy connection.
Marc:I think his name was Bill Downs.
Marc:And his partner was Paul Barkley.
Marc:And I didn't like them.
Oof.
Guest:So she's two for two.
Guest:What is, where does the name Downs come from?
Guest:What is it?
Guest:It's like English, Irish.
Guest:Oh, it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My, but you know, they, the, the downside of the family, I'm from New Jersey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were, I think they landed in New Jersey whenever they landed and were there for a long time.
Guest:I'm Irish and Italian.
Guest:Well, so my grandfather, who was also Paul, my dad is Paul.
Guest:My grandfather was Paul.
Guest:I'm Paul.
Guest:My son is Paul.
Marc:Really?
Guest:You did that?
Guest:Yeah, but we call him by his middle name, which is Luca.
Guest:So he doesn't go by Paul.
Marc:So you just felt the pressure?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:Is your dad still around?
Marc:He is.
Guest:Oh, so you kind of... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we were like, you know, Luca is so Italian.
Marc:So he's Paul III?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We all have different middle names, so there's no first, second, third, fourth.
Marc:No.
Guest:We're all originals, you know?
Guest:Where in New Jersey?
Guest:Well, I was born in Morristown, but I'm from a town called Sussex Borough, which is in, like, very northwestern Jersey.
Guest:Very, very, very rural.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like, livestock auction every week.
Marc:Yeah, people don't realize that about Jersey.
Marc:It's a very green, farmy state.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Where I'm from, I think it's, you know...
Guest:I don't know, 1,200 people in the town.
Marc:Really small.
Marc:But not close to New York, so you didn't have that.
Guest:No, like two hours from New York.
Marc:Or the beaches, so you're not... Not near the beaches.
Marc:You're not Jersey'd.
Marc:No, not even near the turnpike.
Guest:People are like, what's your stop?
Guest:Our exit took us an hour to have to get to the turnpike.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you don't identify Jersey.
Guest:I do, but I have a really different understanding of the state.
Guest:People are like, oh, the Soprano.
Guest:Oh, Newark Airport.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Hour from the city.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Not you.
Guest:People are like, what's your mall?
Guest:I think we were like 45 minutes from the Rockaway Mall.
Guest:There wasn't even a mall nearby.
Marc:So a different Jersey experience.
Marc:Very different.
Marc:And you've got a bunch of brothers and sisters?
Marc:I have a younger sister, Emily.
Marc:And that's it?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:Just two of us.
Guest:And what did your dad, what was he?
Guest:So my dad was in procurement.
Guest:He was a buyer.
Marc:For what?
Guest:Well, he worked for a bunch of companies.
Guest:I think for the longest time he worked for this company, a Japanese company called Sumora.
Guest:And they made, they like licensed Disney brands and made like...
Guest:Little Mermaid shampoo and like Beauty and the Beast kids toothbrushes.
Guest:So there was a lot of that around the house?
Guest:We did have a lot of that.
Guest:We did have a lot.
Guest:We had, whether it was potpourri or themed toothbrushes, we did have a lot of that.
Marc:Bring home the boxes and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But he worked like really he worked in in the city.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he drove like two hours every way.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And then when I I went to public school, my mom is a public school teacher.
Guest:I have two aunts and two uncles who are school teachers, a lot of teachers in my family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then in about sixth grade, my parents were like, it's really small and rural here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're gonna take you out of the school and go somewhere else.
Guest:And so I went to a school that was an hour and a half from my house.
Marc:Every day?
Guest:I drove three hours a day to, from, yeah.
Guest:For high school?
Guest:Just before high school, seventh grade.
Guest:Sixth grade I went to, my school was two kids in sixth, two kids in seventh, four kids in eighth grade.
Guest:All in one class.
Guest:What the fuck?
I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And they just wanted you to have a broader experience?
Guest:My mom was a sub.
Guest:She substitute taught at the school one day and was like, I think you should have.
Marc:At your school?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think she was like, because even then I wanted to act.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so she was like, I think.
Marc:In junior high?
Marc:We should look somewhere else.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Even younger.
Marc:Isn't that a weird thing?
Marc:I remember my mom substituted or teached.
Marc:At my school.
Marc:And it was like such a big day.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Your mom's going to be teaching.
Marc:It was weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom came in and did like presentations.
Guest:My parents collect antiques and they bought a... The reason I lived there was they bought a really old house that was built in 1749.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Way far the heck out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they have never moved.
Guest:They still live there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's kind of like their Bob Vila...
Guest:passion project that's their weekend warrior project yeah they're still doing it yeah you know they just they just put an air conditioning upstairs this year oh they didn't want to uh to to ruin the the the old structure that's right that's right they kept so so they've spent a lifetime getting this thing historically correct that's right and it is very historically correct but anyway my so my mom would come in and do like they were really into history yeah
Guest:And my mom would do like presentations around what life was like in colonial New Jersey.
Guest:So that was my experience of my mom coming to school and showing people how to churn butter.
Guest:You know, it was like.
Guest:Did she have a churn?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We had a butter churn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had a butter churn.
Guest:We had.
Guest:Yeah, we had.
Marc:But was that a regular thing or was just an antique they had?
Marc:It was an antique they had.
Marc:Your mom didn't churn butter.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Guest:It was something that they had, but then they could bring in the prop.
Guest:Right, sure.
Guest:You know, my mom, you know, going back to Carrot Top, they could bring in the props.
Marc:Yeah, the butter churn.
Marc:Maybe he'll hear this.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I hope he does.
Guest:He's got to bring more colonial stuff into his work.
Marc:At this point, he probably needs it.
Marc:He may have it, actually.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:He's a character.
Marc:So that was your life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't really have sleepovers because we couldn't run in the house.
Guest:My parents were like, be careful.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't break anything?
Marc:Don't break things, yeah.
Marc:Or don't break yourself?
Marc:Both.
Marc:Those are like all hardwood floors, staircases, and the whole thing?
Guest:Yeah, wide plank, hardwood floors, you know.
Guest:Small staircase, though, because it was, you know, 18th century, so low ceilings, low doorways.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it pretty?
Guest:It's really pretty.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People are always like, is it haunted, you know, because it's got that lot.
Guest:Everyone wants everything to be haunted.
Guest:Everyone's like, tell us about the ghosts.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's like their first question.
Marc:Oh, it's that old, so it's got to be haunted.
Guest:Yeah, many people died here, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everywhere.
Marc:Everywhere you go.
Marc:That's the one thing people don't consider.
Marc:If any house you've ever lived in is more than 50 years old, there's death in there.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But do you believe in ghosts?
Guest:You know, there were some weird experiences we had, but I'm certainly not a paranormal investigator.
Marc:Weird experiences?
Guest:Well, you know, people were always like, when is the house haunted?
Guest:It's like, well, weirdly, like, toilets would flush on their own, which did seem strange.
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:But then again, you just chalk it up to old plumbing.
Guest:But the attic light would often be on, and no one had been up there.
Guest:You know, there were things like that.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:But nothing like... You didn't see anybody.
Guest:I was never touched by a ghost, you know?
Guest:I was never molested by a ghost.
Marc:You never felt one brush by you on the staircase?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:Knock wood.
Marc:So when did you start thinking that you needed to act?
Guest:You know, I wanted to do it when I was pretty young.
Guest:My mom would take the train with me into the city.
Guest:And I would audition for, like, you know, detergent commercial.
Guest:Never booked.
Guest:But I kind of always wanted to do it.
Guest:But I think I got into comedy...
Marc:That's always sad right home, isn't it?
Marc:When you don't get the detergent commercial.
Guest:You know, my mom would be like, it's because you have perfect diction and they want children with lisps because children with lisps are cuter, you know?
Guest:And so there was always a reason.
Guest:And I was like, okay, great.
Marc:Did you try to get the lisp going?
Guest:No, I didn't put things on.
Guest:You know, I was just, I was purely myself and they didn't want that.
Guest:They just didn't want it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Their loss.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Guest:It was probably good.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Who knows where I'd be?
Guest:Maybe not here.
Guest:There's plenty of people that have done commercials.
Guest:They did all right.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think in... Actually, it was probably when I started changing schools that I was like, I didn't really, you know, I didn't know the world of going to a private school.
Guest:I didn't... A lot of those kids had been in school together since they were in kindergarten.
Guest:You know, I was like odd.
Guest:And I think... Odd?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I was odd.
Guest:I was kind of an eccentric kid.
Guest:Are you odd now?
Yeah.
Guest:Less odd.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I am less odd.
Guest:I guess that's sad.
Guest:I'm still odd.
Guest:I'm still odd, but less.
Marc:But like if you were exactly the way you are now, then it would have been odd.
Guest:That would have been odd.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That would have been great, actually.
Guest:I wish I had some of the wisdom I have now in seventh grade.
Marc:Well, how are you odd?
Marc:Do you mean the other kids made funny?
Guest:I made my own.
Guest:We had to wear, there's a dress code, which I wasn't used to, and we had to wear a tie to school.
Guest:And I would make my own ties.
Guest:Make it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I would glue buttons on a tie.
Guest:Have a tie with a thousand buttons.
Marc:So you were odd in that you needed to be different.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:I also wore like patent leather wingtips.
Guest:It was like, huh?
Guest:It was very, I don't know why.
Guest:I mean, my parents were very encouraging of letting me be my first self.
Guest:Express yourself, yeah.
Guest:And so they changed the dress code my second year of school.
Guest:Because you had to wear a blazer and a tie, and then they were like, well, it has to be a navy blazer.
Guest:It can't be red.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it has to be like a, you know, a tie that doesn't have buttons all over it.
Marc:So you were pushing the envelope however you could within the context of the dress code provided.
Guest:That's very kind of you to say.
Guest:That's very kind.
Guest:But I was really, I was pushing the envelope and trying to edge up.
Guest:Well, you were.
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:I guess.
Marc:You know, I remember there was a need to... I had this memory the other day from high school where I went out with this girl on a date, and there was no reason for me to go out with her.
Marc:She was kind of like big hair, from waspy, country club-ish person.
Uh-huh.
Marc:But I had asked her out because I was ambitious.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:And I remember showing up at her house to pick her up and I'd worn, my dad was kind of a clothes hound and he had this leather trench coat.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:It was a very kind of like a nice shiny leather trench coat.
Marc:So I put that on and I had these orange Converse high tops.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:We're cut from the same cloth, I'm hearing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And, you know, and I knocked on that door and that girl's mother opened the door and the look she gave me was just sort of like, I'm not pulling this off.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I'm not like, she was like, what is my daughter?
Marc:What is wrong with this kid?
Marc:That's cruel.
Marc:That's a cruel parent.
Marc:Well, yeah, they're awful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I thought about it because occasionally I like to catalog my embarrassing moments of which there are many.
Guest:Oh, isn't that fun?
Yeah.
Guest:I have those too.
Marc:Yeah, it like it.
Marc:It is my biggest Like a fear in life is just that feeling of embarrassment.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:It's the fucking and then we're and we're both in comedy and it's embarrassing
Guest:But it's our way of owning it.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's our banana peel.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's just sort of like if you can go do comedy of any kind, you know, when you fail, it's like the worst fucking possible thing.
Marc:But because you've chosen this outlet, you've got to suck it up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you've done it yourself.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's this on-the-job training to overcome embarrassment.
Marc:100%.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Buttons on the tie.
Guest:And that's why I got into it, was to beat people to the punch, I guess, you know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, fuck you.
Marc:I'll fuck me.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's reminding me of a joke that I do that does not work.
Guest:What is it?
Guest:I don't want to date myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I would suck myself off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that never works.
Guest:I always think it's going to work.
Guest:I would suck myself off again.
Guest:Anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Again.
Guest:I added the again recently, but it still doesn't work.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Do you put a little space there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A little ellipses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would suck myself off.
Guest:Again.
Marc:Yeah, you do that.
Marc:Still no.
Guest:I have to repeat it.
Guest:It's bizarre, but I'll try.
Guest:I'm going to keep trying.
Guest:I'm committed to the joke.
Guest:I do think it will work.
Guest:You know, when you have a belief, when you have a strong belief.
Guest:Yeah, dude, I've done jokes that don't work for the whole run.
Guest:Well, as long as you like it, I guess that's okay.
Marc:Well, it made me think of this thing, Fahim.
Marc:You know Fahim?
Marc:No.
Marc:Fahim Anwar.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I started following a bunch of people on Instagram because I was told I should by my Instagram guy.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:I don't know which rock star it was that the myth about having someone who had removed ribs.
Marc:Oh, Marilyn Manson.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So he could suck himself up.
Marc:Oh, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Fahim's take on it was like, you know, how jaded do you have to get to where you don't even want to bother with the party or with the girls?
Marc:You go through surgery.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And the angle was like, hey, we got some girls coming.
Marc:There's going to be a party.
Marc:No, I'm good.
Marc:I'm just going to go home.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, God.
Guest:So how much stand-up do you do?
Guest:You know, I did...
Guest:I did a little bit when I first started out doing comedy in New York, and I was quickly—I quickly pivoted to doing stuff at the UCB.
Guest:Okay, so what's the jump?
Marc:So you go through the—you push the boundaries of fashion.
Marc:I absolutely rock seventh grade.
Marc:And then they changed the fashion code.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Probably because of you.
Marc:The dress code was changed.
Guest:I was shamed.
Guest:Oh, would they?
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:But they were stricter.
Guest:Yes, it was stricter.
Guest:It was like you had to wear like brown leather shoes instead of just like leather tie up shoes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I think the purpose in the beginning was no sneakers.
Guest:And then it became also no patent leather wingtips.
Guest:And then instead of like any color blazer, it was a navy blazer.
Guest:So they shut you down.
Guest:I guess, yeah.
Guest:I guess I was censored early on.
Guest:And this was in high school, no?
Guest:It was two years before high school.
Guest:And where'd you go to high school?
Guest:I went to a school called Pingree in central New Jersey.
Guest:Is that where you started acting?
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:I mean, I did take acting classes extracurricularly, but yes.
Marc:Where, in the city?
Guest:They had a great theater program.
Guest:No, I did it like in Sussex County, you know.
Guest:With some lady?
Guest:With some lady who did like, you know, pantomime class, you know, and I got really good at like pulling an imaginary rope and being in a box, you know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Those are the classics.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wind?
Marc:Did you do wind?
Guest:A lot of wind.
Guest:Oh yeah, a lot of wind.
Guest:It's a lot of fighting wind.
Guest:You know, going down an elevator.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That wasn't there.
Guest:But then, yeah, the reason I chose this particular school, because there were other schools that I applied to.
Guest:One, I got financial aid to go, but also it was a school that it was pretty much a performance art high school.
Guest:So you chose your discipline, whether that be music or visual art or theater, and then it was what you did.
Guest:You didn't take other art classes.
Guest:You just did those.
Guest:And it was also a high school where there was sports and everything else, but there was a great theater program, and they were doing very adult.
Guest:I think when I visited, they did Mehrat Saad, and it was very adult plays.
Guest:The department led by Al Romano, gotta give him a shout out.
Guest:There was a lot of Reaganism stuff.
Marc:Can't do that anymore, I bet.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe not.
Guest:Maybe not.
Marc:It's an interesting time, you know, because like, and I'm older than you, obviously, but there was shit going, like crazy art going on, you know, with young people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That just, I bet it's certainly not going to exist in a public school anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess with a private performing arts school, they can still.
Marc:Maybe they would think there's no parents that are like, what's going on at the art school?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Where my kid is wearing this hat.
Guest:Although you never know.
Guest:You never know who's going to be up in arms about it.
Marc:Or it's odd.
Marc:Kids.
Marc:I love when... I'd really kind of like to go watch a production of an adult play done by high school students.
Marc:I don't think I've seen one as an adult.
Marc:I certainly haven't.
Marc:It's probably good that we don't randomly go if we don't have... I mean, when I was in junior high, we did Meet Me in St.
Marc:Louis.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:We did the classics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I remember I had this...
Marc:the mustache that turns into sideburns all glued on and there's some scene where I walk out and they throw water at me.
Marc:One of them, the mustache stuck to the wall.
Marc:Again, embarrassing, but big laughs.
Marc:Yeah, I bet.
Marc:Big laughs.
Marc:Is that where you got the bug for laughs or no?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I don't know where that happened.
Guest:So you were interested in acting before stand-up?
Marc:I think I was, yeah.
Marc:But I just didn't pursue it because I was doing stand-up, and acting was always part of it.
Marc:But I just never could figure out... I took acting classes, but I didn't pursue it because once you... I can't handle auditions.
Marc:I couldn't then.
Marc:And I never had really good representation.
Marc:And my representation was always someone doing a favor to my manager.
Marc:And I'd go into these auditions and just...
Marc:blow it yeah and then I'd walk in and I'd see actors I'd seen on television like what am I even here I know I know my first year in LA I was like there are very famous people in this room yeah and people that are just better than me at this yeah yeah you know whatever it is yeah well you're a very good actor well I appreciate that I'm not blowing smoke as I'm on your pod I appreciate that but you look at these jokes and there's a way to do that kind of acting yeah and
Marc:And it was not what I had conceived of as what acting was.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Just delivering these mediocre jokes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just, it really, by the time I started stand-up, it was really, I rarely went out.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I didn't really start acting until I did my show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then I had to learn how to do it in front of everybody.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:First season was a little embarrassing.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Well.
Guest:It seemed very natural.
Marc:Yeah, I can't look at it.
Guest:I don't watch myself very much.
Guest:I mean, I do for hacks because we edit the show, so I'm doing the edit, but otherwise, not a lot.
Marc:Yeah, but you're very good at it.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Marc:And when I watch myself, what I see is like...
Marc:Just these moments where I'm like, I wasn't in it, and I knew it that day, and I don't know why the fuck they used that.
Marc:You know, that thing, what am I doing with my hand?
Marc:Yeah, oh, God.
Guest:What to do with your hands.
Guest:That's why you just need business all the time, you know?
Marc:But I naturally have business.
Marc:It's to the point where I'm like, I'm doing the business with my hands.
Marc:I'm like, this character wouldn't do this.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And then you're in the middle of talking.
Marc:Why are you crocheting?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why did he just put his hands down abruptly?
Marc:That was the moment he realized he was being himself.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you're at that high school and you're doing it?
Guest:Yeah, so I'm doing theater there.
Guest:And it was actually the first place I started writing for myself.
Guest:I wrote...
Guest:character monologues because there was at lunch you could go to the black box theater and perform for students who wanted to do that so I guess it was but people were just hanging around eating lunch in there yeah you could go and eat lunch and it was like coffee shop vibes oh that's good which was kind of good so I started writing for myself I like that idea it was great why don't they have coffee shops like that now they should
Marc:Well, I mean, I know they have open mics and shit or like little shows at coffee shops, but just a coffee shop where there's just a stage.
Marc:Right, where you could do that, yeah.
Marc:Because people would be annoyed.
Guest:Yeah, I'm trying to get my pour over.
Marc:Especially in this town.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, where people are really delivering it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All the frustration of not having a career comes out in these monologues at a coffee shop.
Marc:That'd be hilarious.
Marc:It's sort of a funny sketch.
Marc:Honestly, it might be good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I just don't know how many people on their way to work would put themselves through that.
Guest:Would wait online for their coffee.
Marc:Just have this needy person.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What kind of monologues?
Guest:My first one, I remember, was a Norwegian goat milk farmer.
Guest:Is this a comedy monologue?
Guest:It was a comedy.
Guest:It was very much a comedy monologue.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:Yeah, there was nothing serious about it.
Guest:I really wanted to dig into this guy.
Guest:Yeah, no, no, no.
Guest:It was really about his trauma.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:About his goats.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I started writing for myself there, and then I did governor school when I was in high school, which is like a summer program for theater.
Guest:And then when I was looking at colleges, I ended up going to Duke, but I really...
Guest:What I saw, I saw their improv group when I visited and I was like, oh, this would be a great.
Guest:And there are plenty of schools that have improv groups or sketch groups.
Guest:But that was the only one that I was visiting that not only did I see it was like in their, you know, their materials when they give you like the brochure for the school.
Marc:They are also in it.
Marc:So it's like a longstanding improv group.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, OK, that sounds like the kind of thing I want to do.
Guest:Which is so insane to be like, I'm gonna go to the school for the improv group.
Marc:It's really wild.
Marc:Well, who the fuck knows what they want to go to school for?
Marc:People in entertainment generally don't.
Marc:You're just buying time because you can to figure it out.
Marc:I just had a realization that
Marc:I think I've always been kind of a performer for the laughs.
Marc:I just remembered that when I was in third grade, me and this kid Jerry used to go in front of the class and do Sesame Street sketches.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You would just like recreate them.
Marc:Well, I'd be the straight man and he'd be Grover.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:That was the whole shtick.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And oddly, that kid went on to do radio in my hometown.
Marc:It's very strange.
Marc:But was it originals or were you just... I think it was originals.
Marc:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:I think that, like, I don't think, I don't remember watching Sesame Street, but he did such a good Grover voice.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I could just, you know, set it up.
Marc:I wish I remember what it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe I don't think about what really got me here as much as I should.
Yeah.
Marc:But it seems like it's always been part of the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the first time I was like, oh, I can be funny, was just like doing an impression of Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire for people.
Guest:You know, just doing lines from the movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And being like, oh, I can do this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is fun.
Marc:I think I did it in class.
Marc:I got kicked out of a school for being disruptive.
Marc:And I know it wasn't for angry disruption.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was just for hijacking the class.
Guest:Class clown stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I had several teachers were like, I can't teach.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I forget about all this stuff.
Guest:I had that too.
Guest:I had that too.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They kicked me out of a school.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:I never went that far.
Guest:I guess I wasn't that good a clown.
Yeah.
Guest:They were able to rein it in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I got a teacher hit me in the head once.
Marc:Geez.
Marc:For being a smart ass.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yikes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I needed a lot of attention.
Marc:Badly parented.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're writing monologues.
Marc:Goat farmer.
Marc:That was a big one.
Guest:Goat farmer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when I went to college, I did improv and I was in a sketch group there.
Marc:And that was just, so you're writing sketches?
Guest:Yes, but I was never writing, you know, like a show for myself or a pilot, and I wasn't doing stand-up there either, and I kind of wish I had been writing more just for myself.
Marc:Well, that's a fucked up, not fucked up, but that's the great thing.
Marc:Like, I can't...
Marc:I can't really wrap my brain around the magic that it takes to make a show work as a writer.
Marc:Because, you know, having done my show, like, I knew the shortcomings of whatever we were doing on Marin.
Marc:And I knew that there were other shows that were inspired and brilliant.
Marc:And, you know, it was just never my life.
Marc:I was always concerned with, you know, being authentically myself.
Marc:But, like...
Marc:Your show, I mean, the characters are so defined and, you know, there's not really any false notes to it.
Marc:And it's a pretty big world.
Marc:And I just, I don't even, it's hard for me to even imagine how that comes together.
Guest:Well, we have a great writer's room with a lot of people that, some of them have lived the experience.
Guest:Someone like Debra, you know.
Marc:Debra.
Guest:Gene Smart's character.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So like, you know, we have people like Carol Liefer and Janice Hirsch.
Marc:Oh, Liefer's in there?
Guest:She was in there for season three.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And we've also had consulting producers like Meryl Marco.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Who consulted this year.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we've had people who have certainly lived the experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we have great stand-ups in the room.
Marc:Who's in there?
Guest:Joe Mandy.
Marc:Well, I know Joe, yeah.
Marc:He's on the show too.
Guest:So funny.
Guest:Yeah, on the show as well.
Guest:Pat Regan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Guy Branham.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wrote on season three.
Guest:So we, you know, we have people from, like in our writer's room that brings so much to it.
Guest:But also I think,
Guest:And we very carefully consider the characters and care about them.
Marc:And the casting.
Guest:Yeah, and the casting is a huge part of it.
Guest:Huge part of it.
Guest:Because to make that character be a believable stand-up, it needs to be performed like one.
Guest:And that is really hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because you see stand-up in film and television, and you can tell when it's like, this is an actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, Jean, when she read the script, said, I've always wanted to do stand-up.
Guest:She said when I was, you know, and maybe you'll have her on, so I don't want to spoil any of her stories, but she said when I was 12...
Guest:for a Halloween party, all the girls were princesses and mermaids and I was Phyllis Diller.
Guest:I teased my hair and people were like, who are you?
Guest:None of the other girls knew who I was.
Guest:But she's like, I always loved it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of an amazing thing to do an original world, especially comedy, where it really kind of works.
Marc:But I mean, that makes sense with those writers.
Marc:It's just, it's really a matter of the group think of the whole thing.
Marc:And people, you know, checking
Marc:You know, when you have people that live the life who can go like, you know, this isn't authentic.
Marc:I imagine that happens.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But all of us come from some comedy background.
Guest:So whether it's being in a writer's room or, you know, having done improv and sketch, like we all know what it's like to be a comedian and to hang out in the halls of UCB and to what the love language is like for comedians, because whether you're a standup or, you know, you're somebody who's just done improv, I feel like it's not dissimilar.
Guest:You know, you know what the world is like.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the show is very much about, you know, the different worlds of stand-up, too, you know?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah, all the way down to, you know, the world now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, okay, so you're doing the improv at Duke.
Marc:You're getting confidence as a sketch writer.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:getting laughs, the improv group's popular?
Guest:You know, we did a big charity show.
Guest:We did like a fundraiser show for pediatric cancer research, which helped us get the basketball team to do the show with us every year.
Guest:So that made it pretty popular.
Guest:I'm not gonna say every show we do was popular, but that one was good.
Guest:Yeah, and I tell you what,
Guest:Shane Battier, who was the captain my freshman year, was really good at improv.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I tell you, if they're as good as they are at sports and being in front of a huge crowd, it's not surprising.
Guest:They were very confident and good.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's funny.
Guest:And they were in videos because we started to do more sketch videos.
Guest:They would do videos with us.
Marc:So that was part of the thing.
Marc:It wasn't quite the internet yet, but you do the videos to put where?
Yeah.
Guest:Great question.
Guest:Nowhere.
Guest:I mean, I honestly think I think YouTube was like starting them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you know, I don't want to date myself, but I would suck myself off again.
Guest:I think we started to put them on truly like maybe my sophomore and junior year.
Guest:But in the beginning, it was just it lived on in the show.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We played them during the show as we like.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was part of the show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But interstitial stuff.
Guest:right but it wasn't it wasn't like archived somewhere right and now you know it was shortly after that i feel like it was like maybe a year or two after that that like lonely island started and like people started getting their stuff out on youtube and youtube was like became a was starting to happen yeah so when you when when you graduated you went right to new york yep moved to new york and then so the youtube was happening
Guest:YouTube was alive and well, yes.
Marc:When you got to New York.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So what was the process in New York?
Guest:So I started doing stand-up, and I found it.
Guest:Where?
Guest:I did, there was a club on 14th Street that was new, that was brand new.
Guest:My memory is so bad.
Guest:This is actually scary.
Guest:On 14th?
Guest:14th and 9th.
Marc:Oh, oh, comics?
Marc:Yes, comics.
Marc:That was a very high-end operation.
Guest:Well, they had an open mic thing, but I had tech, which for them was like, what?
Guest:At the time, it was very like, you have sound effects?
Guest:What?
Marc:Well, that's interesting because that was like a supposedly—it was right in the meatpacking district.
Marc:It was, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it was like this, we're going to do it right.
Marc:And the stage, it was tiered and nice showroom.
Marc:They had good food backstage, nice dressing room.
Marc:There was a nice restaurant up front.
Marc:They were overpaying everybody.
Marc:It was nice.
Guest:I mean, that's a—
Guest:one of the nicer places I did.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I also did like, I did stuff at UCB.
Guest:They had a show.
Guest:The original one?
Guest:The one under Gristides on 20... Yeah, that's the second one.
Marc:Not the one that used to be a porno thing.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:The second one.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So they had a variety show called School Night.
Guest:But so when you did stand-up at comics, you were just doing the open mic, doing like five minutes?
Guest:Doing the open mic.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I did a bunch of open mics.
Guest:I did stand-up in New York.
Guest:I did Gotham.
Guest:I did an open mic there.
Marc:Because you thought coming out of college that that was an avenue.
Guest:Yeah, and I was also auditioning for things, and I continued to not vote.
Marc:But it wasn't necessarily your obsessive passion.
Marc:You didn't necessarily want to be a stand-up, did you?
Guest:No, I wanted to be Robin Williams, so I just wanted to do it all.
Guest:I kind of wanted to do everything.
Guest:But I think primarily I was like, well, I hope all of these roads lead to...
Guest:doing, doing comedy acting.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, being a performer that, that does a little bit of all of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Um, what, what, what was your style as a standup outside of that one joke?
Guest:Um, it was, it was a little bit absurd.
Guest:I would do like call and response stuff.
Marc:But no improv stuff.
Guest:I didn't do a lot of riffing.
Guest:There wasn't a lot of improv.
Marc:Or characters.
Guest:I did do characters.
Marc:You did.
Guest:Which at, at that particular moment,
Guest:It didn't feel like a trend.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Depending on where I went, when I would do School Night, which was this variety show at UCB, it was stand-up and characters and songs and crazy stuff.
Guest:So you'd kind of do whatever, and it felt seamlessly... It felt appropriate for the set.
Marc:There's a generation of people, and you're a part of it, I guess, in that stand-up, despite...
Marc:The existence of sketch and everything else is still like this very, not insulated, but it's a very specific path.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And there's a very specific social structure around it.
Marc:And even once, you know, alt comedy kind of became this other stage with the Brooklyn Rooms and whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, stand up is stand up.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it's limiting in a lot of ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like it seems that the people that found UCB were like, oh, well, this is I can do anything here.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:And that was the thing.
Guest:I think like some of the stuff I ended up doing at UCB because I started to do, you know, one person shows at UCB.
Guest:That could have been done potentially on a stand up stage, but it just wasn't especially for those.
Marc:Not really.
Guest:Not for those five minute.
Marc:Yeah, five minutes or even 15.
Marc:You'd have to, like, you know, either you'd have to become a sellable headliner with a variety show or whatever the hell you were doing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or you'd have to get your own, do it in another space.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, some spaces were, like, there was the Creek in the Cave was new.
Marc:Well, yeah, that was later.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And, like, that was a place that I could, I felt like I could do stuff and felt more like myself.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like-minded people were there.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What I considered my audience because I was that audience was there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And those places were popping up all over the place.
Guest:Like Rafifi's was still there.
Marc:With Merman and those guys.
Marc:They're a little older than you, but that was still there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, Pianos.
Guest:Down there had a show.
Marc:I think John Benjamin and Todd Berry and maybe Cross had a show there.
Marc:They would have been the old guard by the time you were coming up, probably.
Marc:The original alt-comics were already aging out, closing their rooms down.
Marc:Well, what was your one man show?
Marc:Was there singing?
Guest:I did a few.
Guest:There was no singing.
Guest:I appreciate that though.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you for thinking that I can sing.
Marc:I just didn't know what you were going to do for an hour.
Guest:No, I did.
Guest:I did characters and absurd bits.
Guest:And like I said, I did like call and response and crowd work stuff.
Guest:And yeah, you know, it was, it was a lot.
Guest:It was mostly, it was mostly characters, but I did videos.
Guest:I had videos that were like interstitial as I changed wigs.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And were those going up on the YouTube?
Guest:eventually you know they never went on youtube but i had my first show was the paul down syndrome and then i did another one um jeez i can't remember full blown downs was my second one um so who's at ucb at this time
Marc:You mean... Who are the people that... Who's your class?
Guest:Is there anybody that's... Yeah, so Abby and Alana from Broad City are my class.
Guest:Lucianiello, my partner, and my wife was my class.
Guest:Yeah, you met her there.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Aubrey Plaza was on my Herald team, my first Herald team with me.
Guest:I feel like Zach Woods was a little bit before me because he started, I think he was in high school when he started.
Guest:So he was actually there earlier, but it was that generation of people.
Guest:And it was a time when, you know,
Marc:So after Aziz and Kroll.
Guest:Yeah, a little bit after.
Guest:But, like, Amy Poehler was still doing ASCAT.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Guest:You know, and Seth Meyers was doing ASCAT.
Guest:So, like, on Sunday night, you could see Tina and Amy, like, perform.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was still... Dratch.
Guest:You know, Dratch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was still... Like, there was still, like, the original UCB4 would still be doing stuff.
Guest:Teaching?
Guest:Not teaching.
Guest:They didn't teach anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, they would for, like, special...
Guest:Besser, Matt, Ian, and Amy.
Guest:I took a Matt Besser one-off during a Del Close marathon weekend.
Marc:He's intense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was intense.
Guest:Intense teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very intimidating.
Guest:He's one of these CB4 and then you're in class.
Marc:It's so funny because I've known him forever in a way.
Marc:And, but when he was younger, he always felt angry to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I always read him as like, there's a lot of rage in there.
Marc:And then years later I met him and hung out and we did an interview and he was okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He always struck me as like this guy, you know, as an angry guy, I'm like, he's one of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So you, you did, he did a workshop.
Guest:So he did like a, yeah, he did like one class for the marathon.
Guest:So I did that.
Guest:Um,
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so you were there when Abby and Alana developed Broad City?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Basically, when we were there, you know, I had gotten onto a Herald team.
Guest:Herald team being like the kind of, you know, it's one of the main stage shows that you like audition for and try and get on.
Guest:I had actually auditioned with Abby, I think multiple times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Abby and Alana hadn't gotten on a team and Lucia hadn't gotten on a team either.
Guest:So Lucia and I actually started doing stuff at the Magnet Theater, which had been opened by Armando Diaz.
Guest:And they all started doing their own stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of like offshoot stuff.
Guest:In fact, Lucia met Jen doing sketch videos with a group called Landline, which was happening sort of adjacent to UCB.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was around that time that Lucia was also like, hey, you and I should do videos because if you do an improv show, cool, 100 people can see it.
Guest:But if we do videos and put them up, a lot more people are going to see what we do.
Guest:So we started writing original sketches and putting them online.
Guest:And it was around that time that Abby and Alana were doing their Broad City web series, which Lucia ended up directing some of, and I was in the web series.
Marc:So that started as a web series.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think they did like, it's so funny to call it seasons, I think they did like three seasons of a web series.
Marc:And you were part of that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Like I said, we were contemporaries, all of us trying to do this stuff.
Guest:And I was more doing digital shorts with Lucia.
Marc:Yeah, and those were successful?
Guest:Yeah, they were pretty successful in that, you know, what is success on YouTube?
Guest:Some of them went viral and were passed around because at that time it was like, you know, people were passing things around on Facebook.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:So you would rack up the views.
Marc:Beginning of that thing.
Guest:Yeah, and also weirdly it was like at a time when Split Sider was a site that was like reviewing digital shorts, you know, and we'd be writing about stuff that you did.
Guest:And yeah, it was around that time that then Above Average, which was...
Guest:Broadway Video's digital arm started paying people to do sketches for their YouTube channel.
Guest:And so we were paid by Above Average to do a sketch series.
Guest:And so that was our first paid job in comedy.
Guest:And what was that called?
Guest:It was called Paulie Lou Mixtape because Paul and Lucia, as the comedy nerds we are, did a Desilu homage.
Guest:And so we called ourselves Paulie Lou.
Guest:And we started making sketches for their channel.
Marc:Who was running that operation?
Guest:Jen Danielson was running it.
Marc:For Broadway Video?
Guest:For Broadway Video.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she had worked with Lauren and was at Snell Forever and started doing that.
Guest:We made a bunch of those and a lot of them were quite successful, which was great because that got us some attention for representation.
Guest:And it also, I think, was the only tape we had when Broad City was picked up to a show because Amy Poehler kind of
Guest:agreed to EP the show and it went to Comedy Central.
Guest:And it was because of the stuff that we had been doing, kind of sort of our parallel path to Abby and Lana, they said, hey, would you guys write for the show?
Guest:We know you're trying to sell your own show, but would you write for ours?
Guest:And we were like, yeah.
Guest:And Lucia got to direct the pilot.
Marc:So that was sort of, I guess, the beginning of kind of a, what's the word I want?
Marc:Self-generating
Marc:That was being picked up by major outlets.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because the way in before was, you know, you got to pitch, you got to do all this stuff.
Marc:But you were of that first wave of people.
Marc:It's like, oh, we have 10 shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you think?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah, it was weirdly like a moment when web series or things that were happening online were getting people work, which it did feel new.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think it was new.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that enables you to go around...
Marc:the old school, you know, paying your dues as a writing assistant or in a writer's room or any of that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we were, we were in our first writer's room.
Guest:We were one of like five people in the writer's room for Broad City and we had never written for TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we all kind of figured it out together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was a great training ground.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like having stuff on Comedy Central was such a training ground for so many people.
Guest:But for us in particular, it was like,
Guest:How we figured it out.
Marc:And there's always there's like as Comedy Central kept plugging along and got worse and worse, you know, anything that stood out, it was like, oh, it's you know, we got a thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't even imagine or remember or what else would have been on Comedy Central at that time.
Guest:Workaholics was on.
Guest:It was just after Key & Peele.
Guest:It was around the time of Schumer.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So it was like a lot of people were like, you know, getting their first thing.
Marc:But those were popular because it did go through a kind of fallow time at some point.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you know what's interesting?
Guest:Kent Alterman, who took over and bought Broad City and all those other shows.
Marc:I know Kent.
Guest:Had done Strangers with Candy however many years before when he was at Comedy Central.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he's been there forever.
Marc:He was there when I was like on Comedy Central before it was Comedy Central, I think.
Marc:I've known Kent forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like he was there at the beginning when Herzog and Eileen took over Comedy Central.
Guest:And I think he left for a while to direct.
Marc:Yeah, he did something.
Marc:I've seen him around here and there.
Marc:But he was the guy.
Guest:He was the guy who gave a lot of us our chance.
Guest:And let Lucia direct a pilot for TV having only ever done stuff on YouTube.
Guest:Well, good for Kent.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you in touch with Kent Alterman?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We see him every now and again.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's doing all right?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I remember there was a period there, the last time I saw him, he lost a lot of weight, and he was being very healthy, and I can't remember why, but he looked good.
Guest:Yeah, I think for good reason.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I think it was, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, there was an issue.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he was there when I was exiled from Comedy Central, and he finally told me the story.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:I don't even know the story.
Marc:Well, it was before you.
Marc:It was like right when Eileen and Doug took over, they'd left MTV to be the Comedy Central people.
Marc:And I was doing some show at the Catch a Rising Star.
Marc:I didn't know, but it was most of that crew.
Marc:All the new Comedy Central people were in the audience.
Marc:Almost like an office party or something.
Marc:And I just made one joke.
Marc:Said I'm glad that Eileen and Doug took over Left MTV to take over Comedy Central because I think all television should look like a round-the-clock pie-eating contest And apparently yikes yeah like within the first week or two Oh God, and apparently they went on a corporate retreat.
Marc:Oh, no, you know and Herzog was like no Marc Maron no on this Yeah
Marc:That joke.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:Isn't that crazy?
Guest:That something like that can happen.
Marc:You realize that, yeah, you can say whatever you want.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But there might be consequences.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I still love the joke.
Guest:Yeah, well.
Guest:It was pretty cutting.
Guest:They don't do originals anymore, so it is more like that now.
Guest:Now it's no originals.
Guest:That pipeline is gone.
Marc:Yeah, and this was before they even got started, but just the fact that I was a topic at the first corporate retreat of the new regime of Comedy Central, no Marc Maron.
Guest:That's so scary.
Guest:That's the other reason that it's scary to do stand-up.
Guest:I mean, there's a million reasons, but it's like, you're out there, you say something, and then you never know.
Marc:Ken finally told me that.
Marc:And I don't think Herzog is ever quite...
Marc:Well, who cares?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I've seen Doug Herzog maybe three or four times over the last three decades.
Marc:And I still know, like in my heart, I'm like, there's some part of me that's like, yeah, I did that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, there's no shame in it.
Marc:No.
Marc:Speaking truth to power.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I don't know if it would be the same if I hadn't made it in some way.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Like, if I was just some, like, nothing... Right.
Marc:You know, just kind of chugging away as a stand-up, I'd probably see Herzog and be like, hey, man, so... Yeah, it would probably be different.
Marc:Well, the funny thing is, is all these guys...
Marc:Even guys in that power, they end up with a podcast.
Marc:And I know that I think Doug did a podcast.
Marc:I'm like, all right.
Guest:Did he?
Guest:I didn't know that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he said some shit about me, so I'll never have him on my button.
Marc:Okay, blacklist.
Marc:I'm kidding.
Marc:He's out.
Marc:No Doug Herzog on WTF.
Guest:So Broad City, did you act on it too?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I played Trey Pucker.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The trainer at Solstice, the gym.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Abby had handed out flyers for Equinox so she could get a membership.
Guest:And I went to Equinox.
Guest:We both did.
Guest:And so that was kind of based on everything on this show was based on something.
Guest:I like Equinox.
Guest:That happened to one of us.
Guest:Yeah, it was nice.
Marc:It was good.
Guest:It was good.
Marc:Like I'm sitting in Vancouver and there's one right down the street and it was like the greatest thing ever.
Guest:I mean, in that way, it's worth it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't belong anymore.
Marc:Why?
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:You know, I did resign around the time that, like, their CEO had been donating to Trump.
Marc:But I also— I didn't even know that.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I also—it just became a hassle to go.
Marc:What do you do for exercise?
Guest:I have, like, a Craigslist purchase multi-use thing at my—
Guest:house.
Guest:And then I go to this place, shout out to Ultra Body Fitness and Patrick McGran.
Guest:I go there.
Guest:I go there like, you know, once or twice a week.
Guest:That's my fitness routine.
Marc:So after Broad City, what happens?
Marc:You're a player?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um...
Guest:Well, we were on Broad City.
Guest:Lucia and I wrote and both of us directed on the show and I was on the show and we did it for all five seasons.
Guest:So it took up a lot of our time.
Guest:And then when we... But what an education, right?
Guest:I mean, an amazing education because we did it all.
Guest:And it was very much like what we had done making YouTube videos because, you know, I used to like hold the boom mic and Lucia was in half of them.
Guest:I would direct them or I was in half of them.
Guest:She would direct them.
Guest:So we taught ourselves how to edit.
Guest:We taught ourselves how to color correct.
Guest:We were just doing all of it.
Guest:And it was such...
Marc:So by the end of Broad City, you're, you know, an experienced showrunner.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, Abby and Alana were showrunning, but we certainly understood what that meant.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:On a manageable level.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:With reasonable risk factor.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Like in the sense that like you're not you're not carrying some network juggernaut.
Guest:That was the best part was that it was because of what Comedy Central offered people like that.
Guest:It was sort of a low risk situation.
Guest:I think we didn't even get many notes season one because people were like, let's try it out.
Guest:They could take risks on comedy.
Guest:They don't do anymore.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because now it's like, well, it better be it better generate subscribers because it's such a huge hit or we can't do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So that is, I think, a big, big crisis right now in comedy.
Guest:There's just not a place that's low risk and you can cut your teeth and figure out your voice and find your audience.
Marc:Except TikTok and YouTube.
Guest:Well, yes, that is the one place you can do it.
Guest:You can do it on Instagram or on TikTok, I guess.
Marc:Yeah, you're saying that there's not a lot of...
Marc:You know, interesting new comedy voices being engaged on the major streamers or network television.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:I think it is all self-generated stuff.
Guest:I think it's it's I mean, I think to a certain degree.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's an interesting idea, because even when I for some reason, Maria Bamford just came to mind.
Marc:with her Miss Dynamite, is that what it's called?
Marc:Lady Dynamite.
Marc:Lady Dynamite.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Which was, you know, she's a genius.
Marc:She is.
Marc:You know, but that, where are you gonna make that now?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't even know where it was.
Guest:That's the thing, I don't know, it was on Netflix.
Guest:I don't know if they would do it now.
Marc:Now, now.
Guest:And you know, when I moved to LA,
Guest:And we actually moved to L.A.
Guest:like the year Broad City was picked up.
Guest:So we moved to L.A.
Guest:and then started shooting a show in New York.
Guest:So we went back for half the year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But when I moved to L.A., I was like, you know what?
Guest:I'm in a new city.
Guest:I'm going to try stand up again.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I really did love it, but I never really found my footing.
Guest:And it was kind of lonely.
Guest:And I enjoyed the collaborative process of doing sketch and improv and, you know, having people like Jen and Lucia to work with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm starting to do open mics in LA.
Guest:I'm having a little bit more fun than I did the first go round.
Guest:And then I do a 4.30 open mic at a coffee shop in West Hollywood.
Guest:And Maria walks in.
Marc:That's her prime time.
Guest:Well, I stopped.
Guest:I was like the dedication it takes to work that muscle.
Guest:I was like, I can't.
Guest:She had Lady Dynamite at the time.
Guest:I'm like, you have a show on Netflix.
Guest:How do you even have the energy if you're the lead of this show to do an open mic?
Marc:Well, she's a unique thing.
Marc:I mean, you wouldn't want to judge yourself against Maria's process.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know more about her.
Guest:So I'm like, you know, I probably shouldn't have been scared off, but I was like, oh, my God.
Marc:She's the person that gets people on her social medias to sit there and run her act in front of her.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Now I know more, you know, but at the time I was like, oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so that phase didn't last too, too long.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Of doing stand-up again in L.A.
Marc:So, but how does it unfold with, like, so Statsky is writing on Broad City as well?
Guest:She was.
Guest:She was writing on Broad City between seasons of Parks and Rec and then The Good Place.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:She did all that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So she came up sort of in a more traditional writer's room scenario.
Guest:She worked at Fallon and then she was on a bunch of shows and really worked her way up the writer's room ladder.
Marc:So she knew real network television.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So where does the...
Guest:idea come for hacks we were going from from boston both jan and lucia are from massachusetts and uh where's your wife from in massachusetts she's from western mass she's from hadley oh yeah um which is right near amherst yeah yeah yeah so she grew up in the amherst area yeah yeah another weirdly a lot like my hometown like a rural like tobacco farms weirdly yeah oh really yeah there's like tobacco and asparagus
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And was her family in farming?
Guest:No, they were in the restaurant business.
Guest:Her dad owned an Italian restaurant.
Guest:She was born in Italy.
Guest:And she came here when she was one.
Guest:Her dad is Italian, Italian.
Guest:Her mom's Italian too, but born in Boston.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah, they had a pizzeria and then an Italian restaurant in Amherst.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:Yeah, a couple actually.
Marc:For the kids?
Yeah.
Marc:Was it popular with the students?
Guest:I think that that's why they moved, because he initially worked in Boston, and I think he moved with his partner in the pizzeria to Amherst, because he was like a lot of college kids.
Marc:Yeah, eat pizza, keep it up and late.
Guest:So I think it did very well, and then they opened a restaurant.
Marc:Boston Italians are no fucking around.
Marc:That's real shit.
Guest:No, they're real Italian.
Guest:And he's real, real.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And was he, is he a good cook?
Guest:Amazing cook.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's almost like too good.
Guest:It's like, don't stay, don't visit too long.
Guest:You're going to gain nine pounds.
Guest:You know, it's like, he's an amazing cook.
Marc:And is your wife good?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Her and her, her brother and sister, they all inherited the gene.
Guest:They're really good cooks.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so Boston.
Guest:Yeah, so we were driving to Boston because I was shooting a scene for my Netflix special, The Characters, which was a sketch special.
Marc:Well, you've done quite a bit of acting here and there, no?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I mean, that worked out for you?
Marc:It did.
Marc:Was that mostly from the Broad City?
Marc:Was that your real-ish?
Guest:That was probably my first big recurring part, yeah.
Guest:And I had done other things.
Guest:I had done other parts on...
Guest:other shows but that was my first big job and then the character special i got to kind of do my one person show a little bit from the old days did you do the goat farmer no no but i did you know i used to do a bit where i would come out um as a visually impaired person on a segue and i would just tap around with a with a cane on the stage on a segue that was the bit yeah and i got to kind of turn that into more of a sketch but we anyway we were we were driving to portland maine to a monster jam yeah
Guest:monster truck rally.
Guest:And we, I brought Lucia and Jen because they are the funniest people I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They always make me funnier.
Marc:It was for a bit.
Guest:It was for a bit.
Guest:I was like, can you guys come and help write some jokes?
Guest:Because I was going, I was kind of doing a little bit of a Sacha Baron Cohen thing where I was going in character
Guest:to an actual show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they were going to give me the mic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I emailed them and I was like, hey, I'm this enthusiast.
Guest:Can I come?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was kind of scary, but also because it was improvised, I did need some help punching it up.
Guest:So they both came.
Guest:And it was on that drive we were talking about, you know, stand-ups in particular, you know, female stand-ups who we didn't feel like had ever gotten the due that their male counterparts had.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were also talking a lot about, you know,
Guest:the kinds of, like, cool comedy.
Guest:You know, what is... And it's not even cool comedy.
Guest:I guess more of, like, the territorialism that exists in comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because when I was first doing stand-up, like I said, it was like... I felt like it was much more... They were like, you have sound cues?
Guest:It didn't feel like it was... I felt more comfortable in, like, the alt scene.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Which wasn't brand new.
Guest:I feel like in...
Guest:San Francisco, there was, like, riff culture in the 70s and 80s, and there was, like, weirder clubs.
Marc:Yeah, I was there for a couple years, yeah.
Marc:They weren't weirder clubs, but there was something about... Because I went there after New York for two years, and there's something about just the nature of that city in terms of what it's always been defined by creatively.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, and at the core of it, there was definitely riff culture, but there was also just straight stand-ups.
Marc:But the audiences...
Marc:You know, New York, you got to punch your way out of a goddamn, you know, metal bag.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there, like, they were kind of like, what is going to happen?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, there was a different tone.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So we were just talking about, like, the different and how, depending on what tone you were in and what group, what your scene was, the way there was judgment sometimes for other scenes, you know, what was cool comedy and particularly how that existed in
Marc:between generations how like sometimes you'd see a stand-up on a late night show as a young person coming up at UCB and be like that person's funny you know what I mean you're like no totally because like there was something about just the context of traditional stand-up that was stuck in time right like you know you even go into some clubs and you're like what the fuck is this decor right is this 1983 yeah yeah and it's still like that
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:I mean, if you see posters for guys who play casinos, billboards, like when I'm in New Mexico or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and you're like, you know, Titus is playing at the... I'm like, oh my God, it never changes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Especially in a place like a casino.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There is that... It's just stuck in this time.
Marc:And there's something just innately lowbrow and kind of...
Marc:Not working class, but just kind of there is this standard of road comedy that never went away.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:And it's comedy club culture.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Old school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're thinking about all this stuff.
Guest:We're talking about that.
Guest:And, you know, the first time I ever saw stand-up was...
Guest:Paula Poundstone.
Guest:She was the first stand-up I ever saw.
Guest:Because I used to watch Comedy Central had Premium Blend or Premium Roast.
Guest:Premium Blend, yeah.
Guest:They would do little snippets of Janine Garofalo's set or Paula Poundstone.
Marc:Before that, it was Short Attention Span Theater, which I hosted.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:And Stand Up, Stand Up, which Keitlinger hosted.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:But you would have been a little kid.
Guest:I was really young, but I used to watch it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And not get it.
Guest:But I wanted to be in on the joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wanted to get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you would see, like, Keitlinger, and you'd see Garofalo, and you'd see a lot of these female stand-ups.
Guest:And then, you know, men who were doing it at the time, often you knew them.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But unless you were a comedy nerd who was watching and trying to get in on the joke, you might not know...
Guest:Paula Poundstone sure so we were just talking about how that felt not fair yeah, and also it was around the time that you know I Feel like that piece of work documentary come out about Joan and how some people you know a younger generation Didn't even know she was a stand-up we're like oh doesn't she do like fashion commentary on red carpets, right?
Guest:You know like didn't know her history sure in terms history anymore.
Guest:I know yeah
Guest:So we were just talking about how it would be cool to explore that through these two generations of a younger comedian or younger comedy writer and this sort of like old school Vegas standup comedian.
Guest:And we sent each other an email as we often did when we had an idea for something.
Guest:And that was in 2015.
Guest:And then we just didn't stop talking about it.
Guest:We kept, anytime we'd have dinner or we'd get together or we would be up at night and be like emailing each other.
Guest:You know what's a funny scene?
Guest:Or, you know, it'd be a great episode going back to her alma mater, you know, or whatever.
Guest:And so we just did that for like five years while we finished Broad City and while Jen finished The Good Place.
Guest:And then once we, once both of those shows had their finales, we said, okay, now's a moment we could pitch it.
Marc:And at that point of the pitch, like how many of the characters were in place in your mind?
Marc:Because, you know, the whole sort of like, um...
Marc:The guy who plays her, you know, her business, the other businesses, the brand management guy.
Guest:Yes, yes, her CEO.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yes, Marcus.
Marc:And then the casino owner.
Marc:Yep.
Guest:What's that actor's name?
Guest:Chris McDonald.
Guest:Christopher McDonald.
Marc:I'll never forget him in Thelma and Louise.
Guest:He's amazing.
Guest:And what a career.
Guest:I mean, he's so good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And really funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's really...
Guest:Really good.
Marc:That role in Thelma and Louise, like, I can never forget it.
Guest:It's amazing.
Marc:It's amazing.
Guest:I watched it recently.
Marc:It holds up, right?
Marc:My God, yes.
Marc:Just this... So much.
Marc:Control freak, weird man guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I mean, he's in, you know, obviously he's Shooter McGavin, but he's also in Requiem for a Dream.
Guest:I mean, the man's career is really... He is an underrated actor.
Marc:Real character actor.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then, okay, so, and then, like, when did you decide...
Marc:to put your character's side of the business in it.
Marc:Was it always there from the beginning?
Guest:It was from the beginning.
Guest:We knew we needed to connect these two women and we knew, we thought the manager would be that person.
Guest:And we knew someone my age would represent someone like Ava, you know, who's like a young comedy writer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we were like, well, how can we get, and then we realized, well, maybe he is a, you know, his father was a big time manager and he inherited her as a client.
Guest:So my character was in there from the very beginning.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Megan Stalter's character.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:also in there from the beginning, not to the degree to which she became a part of the show, but she was always a part of it.
Guest:We are really interested in duos, you know, like classic straight man character duos.
Guest:So we knew that that was a good opportunity for a fun
Marc:Was she always the idea or was that just casting?
Guest:So it was based on someone that we kind of knew in life, but then Meg started to do videos on Instagram.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And part of her shtick was being like super self-confident and having bravado, but also being like a little bit, a little bit stuttery and sometimes also, you know, like second guessing.
Guest:And it was this great, it was this great dichotomy that we really thought worked for the person that we were thinking about.
Guest:So we did think of her for it.
Marc:So, but you knew her from her videos.
Guest:From her videos, but I had also, I had been on a standup show with her and seeing her live, I was like, this girl's special.
Guest:She's really, really special.
Guest:So she auditioned for it, but she was, there was no question.
Marc:That's very funny.
Marc:It's a very funny pairing.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:We have a lot of fun.
Guest:We have a lot of fun.
Marc:So you go pitch it to?
Guest:Yeah, we pitch it all around.
Marc:Who said no?
Guest:You want to know?
Guest:Showtime said no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Apple said no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Amazon said no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hulu said yes.
Guest:HBO said yes.
Guest:And HBO Max was just launching.
Guest:And they said yes.
Guest:And I think that's it.
Marc:Was it Nina?
Nina?
Guest:No.
Marc:At HBO?
Guest:That bought it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was, well, it was Susanna Makos at HBO Max and it was Amy Gravitt at HBO.
Guest:Oh, Amy.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But because they were launching the streamer, they weren't going to compete.
Guest:And it sort of felt like, oh, well, the streamer does need content.
Guest:This feels right.
Guest:So it's going to go to the streamer.
Guest:And that's what it's on now?
Guest:Yeah, it's on HBO Max or now Max.
Marc:Max.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But like, what is the separation now?
Marc:I mean, is it on HBO as well?
Guest:You know, they have played an episode or two from each season on linear HBO, but no, it's only on Macs.
Marc:So the difference is HBO proper is still linear.
Guest:Yes, and HBO proper, all HBO proper shows are on Macs, but Mac shows aren't on the channel.
Marc:Well, so that was sort of an interesting victory for you.
Marc:It was great.
Guest:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:That you popped their streamer.
Guest:We were one of the first ones, yeah.
Marc:And it took.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting that they don't run it in full on HBO.
Guest:I think it's like a whole different contract and a different thing.
Guest:You know, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But, but yeah, we've, it's, it's been great because I feel like so many people stream now, you know, it's found its audience.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, and then you got kind of sidelined by COVID.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, we wrote, we sold it before COVID.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then we attached Jean before COVID.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because we sent her the script.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She responded to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank God she said yes.
Guest:And then we were casting the Ava part.
Marc:How'd you find Hannah?
Guest:She did a pre-read for our casting directors.
Guest:So we saw tape and we were like, who is this?
Guest:Had never seen her before.
Guest:She had done a set on Colbert.
Guest:So that was the only thing we could find.
Marc:As a standup.
Guest:As a standup.
Guest:But she was really unique and really good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we auditioned a lot of people.
Guest:A lot of great actors read for it.
Guest:And then during COVID, they said, why don't you just write the season?
Guest:So we wrote the season.
Marc:So you got the deal to write all, what, 10?
Guest:All 10, yeah.
Guest:We'd written the pilot, so we had nine left, yeah.
Marc:So that was almost fortuitous.
Guest:In a way, it was.
Guest:And then we screen tested Hannah and Gene together
Guest:during COVID before vaccines on an empty soundstage with a, like a sheet of plexiglass between them.
Guest:And they were like six feet apart.
Guest:So for someone like Hannah, who's never been on TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Never had a call back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To go into this like empty soundstage with Jean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Must've been so terrifying, but she was so good.
Guest:She was so good.
Guest:And our casting director said to us, there's one point at which in the, in the pilot Deborah says, Oh, you're a fan of mine.
Guest:Um, what's your favorite joke?
Guest:And Hannah blushes.
Guest:In the audition, she blushes.
Guest:And our casting director was like, she just blushed.
Guest:She just blushed.
Guest:I mean, it's crazy, her physiological gift.
Guest:She's a really good actor.
Guest:She's a great stand-up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I love her.
Guest:But she's an amazing actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So do you have that video of the Plexiglas?
Guest:I think, yes, I think we do.
Guest:Somewhere.
Guest:So crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's a few crazy things about that.
Marc:Because when I started interviewing people in here again, I figured out how to do it on Zoom.
Marc:Not on Zoom, but on another platform, which I hated.
Marc:I don't like not doing it in person.
Marc:But it was still, COVID was around, but people were doing things.
Marc:And I had a plexiglass thing here.
Guest:But it would have done nothing.
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:We didn't know.
Guest:We were washing our vegetables.
Guest:It was...
Guest:Weird time.
Guest:Crazy time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really weird.
Marc:Just going to the fucking supermarket.
Marc:We're not going.
Marc:I like putting on fucking gloves.
Marc:I never did any Instacarts and I never did not never ordered food and I never did stand up on Zoom.
Marc:I never did outdoor stand up.
Marc:I did one.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did an Instagram live stand up and one Zoom.
Guest:And then I was like, that's the only one.
Guest:Talk about weird.
Guest:You can't hear any laughter.
Guest:It was so weird.
Marc:I just couldn't do it.
Marc:You know, and obviously I was dealing with the tragedy of Lynn's loss.
Marc:Yeah, I'm sorry.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:But after that was still like, you know, I was just holed up here.
Marc:But I didn't feel compelled to, you know, to do... I started doing Instagram Lives.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which was good and bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because a lot of lonely people kind of...
Marc:latched on and, and, you know, I had to stop.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because like that whole sort of, uh, parasocial relationship thing is that was called where, you know, when people are holed up and you're on doing Instagram live, I mean, they, something breaks in their brain and they're like, I'm going to FaceTime with Mark now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Bizarre.
Marc:But it did keep me engaged in some sort of dialogue to generate, uh,
Marc:thoughts publicly.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And that worked.
Marc:But yeah, what a weird fucked up time.
Marc:So you shot, COVID was still there, but they built the protocols.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So we wore like two masks and a shield.
Guest:We, you know, it was like the protocols were crazy.
Marc:We're all in PTSD.
Marc:Cause you're like, even just talking about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like the zones.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The AB.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:The zones.
Guest:And Jean, you know, it was like,
Guest:Around 70 and diabetic.
Guest:So we were like, well, she's a national treasure.
Guest:We got to be careful because she can't get COVID.
Marc:It's very interesting because I shot two Leslie in peak COVID.
Marc:And the only time we wore a mask was when we were doing a scene.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:So it became very like there's an immediacy to it because there's this desperate need for engagement.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it does heighten the thing a little bit.
Marc:100%.
Marc:You know, just like masks off.
Guest:You're very alive, yeah.
Guest:And you're like, let's get it done just in case somebody has COVID.
Marc:Did anyone get COVID?
Guest:There were people that got COVID, but nobody, I don't think any actors did.
Marc:And you were testing every three days on set?
Marc:Every day.
Marc:Every day.
Guest:Every day we rapid tested.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was wild.
Guest:My brain was mush because they put that thing up your nose.
Guest:I had calluses in my nose.
Marc:So that was the first season?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And then I'm trying to remember, when was that long wait between seasons?
Guest:Well, so season two came out basically a year after.
Guest:So we turned that around really quickly.
Guest:And then season three, we had, you know, Gene had a cardiac issue and surgery.
Guest:And then we had the two strikes.
Guest:So it became like a huge, huge weight.
Guest:We would have been finished pre-strike.
Marc:So you survived COVID and then the strike happened and that fucked the timing up on the third season.
Guest:And then we took a long, yeah, a long hiatus.
Marc:And now this season was great.
Marc:What a great ending.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Did you know that going in?
Guest:We knew that going into writing season three.
Guest:We didn't know that like the day we pitched it.
Guest:We knew that season three would be about the quest to get this chair, the quest for late night.
Guest:And we knew that Ava would become her head writer.
Guest:But we didn't know she would take it until the first week of season three.
Guest:But we did know it very, very early on in the writing.
Marc:And now how's the next season shaping up?
Guest:We're in the middle of writing season four.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is crazy.
Guest:But it's great.
Guest:I mean, we left on such a propulsive note.
Guest:It's been fun to play the dynamic.
Guest:But there's a lot to also wrap your arms around.
Guest:Because, you know, we're writing about late night.
Guest:And we're writing about the state of comedy and the state of technology.
Guest:So there's a lot that we want to say in the season.
Guest:And so that's, you know, it's a tricky house of cards.
Marc:So now you're effectively...
Marc:A producer of the new H.I.
Marc:show who's at odds with Gene a bit.
Guest:Well, I'm at odds.
Guest:Well, I don't want to give too much away, but, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Things are fraught.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Things are fraught.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now, like, Gene's on the defensive.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And also... But has to do the job.
Guest:I now have no longer an assistant.
Guest:I have a partner in Kayla.
Guest:So that's a whole new dynamic.
Guest:There's a lot of new dynamics at play, which is fun.
Guest:And Hannah's got to be a hard ass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's a dom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Evil Ava.
Marc:Big shift.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:So we get to see all of her hidden, tower-hungry... That's right.
Guest:She's got that fuck-ass bob.
Guest:She's coming in with that short haircut.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's going to be good.
Guest:And I think it's fun for everybody to have a new gear.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's what's amazing about the show is that you were like...
Marc:The return to stand up and then, you know, then this thing, the shift for the late night thing.
Marc:And now, like, you know, I didn't know how that was going to go at the end of the season.
Marc:How are you going to, you know, what do you do now?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And she gets the gig and then the power dynamic shifts.
Marc:And then it's like how it must be a thrill going into the fourth season to really like we got a whole new game here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, and it's not we're not faking it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, we haven't jumped any sharks.
Marc:There's no... We're not riding on... We're not repeating ourselves.
Guest:No.
Guest:It is all new.
Guest:It's all new.
Guest:And that's the thing that's been the challenge, but also the fun is that we try to...
Guest:blow up the relationship every season yeah and yet also reset the dynamic because the grist between them you know that friction is where the comedy is yeah the fun is yeah so you know they can't just be in perfect harmony and yet we want them together and so this season being able to handcuff them together at a time and now create sort of the biggest friction between them is proving fun yeah you know it's got to be exciting to write and who's in the room same people
Guest:Yeah, mostly all the same people.
Guest:We did promote Carolyn Lipka, who was our writer's assistant last year.
Guest:She's a staff writer this year, which is great.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And then you've got all these Emmy nominations.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Who are you up against?
Guest:We're up against Abbott Elementary and The Bear and Only Murders in the Building.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I should know them all, but...
Marc:And so that's like now the sort of publicity machine is just going to take over.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, we're in the writer's room, so it's like, you know.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:I mean, what's done is done.
Guest:The focus is the room, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But is everyone out to impress or what?
Guest:We, yeah, we do occasionally do, you know, a panel or a thing.
Guest:But, yeah, the room takes up most of the time.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Gotta get Jean in here.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:You'd have fun with her.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know she doesn't do this stuff much, but she should.
Guest:I'll tell her.
Marc:Will you?
Guest:I will.
Guest:I will.
Guest:And we all do that.
Guest:We always advocate when we think something she would enjoy.
Marc:Because she just doesn't like doing things?
Guest:No.
Guest:Like I said, she loves to work.
Guest:She's just so busy working.
Guest:And she also has a 13-year-old kid.
Guest:She just moved.
Guest:There's a lot.
Guest:She's always busy.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:She just did Colbert.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:She does Seth a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if she's done Kimmel.
Marc:Hmm.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Fallon?
Guest:I don't know that she's done Fallon.
Marc:Hmm.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't know if that's by design or what.
Marc:Well, it was good talking to you.
Marc:Great to talk to you.
Marc:Thank you for having me.
Marc:I'm excited about the fourth season.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I hope you win the prizes.
Guest:That's very nice.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:great guy smart guy funny guy it's i you know just what an amazing achievement to write an original comedy series that is surprising and honest i don't know how they do it but i know a little more now uh paul is uh emmy nominated for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series and outstanding writing for a comedy series so uh hope you enjoyed that hang out for a minute
Marc:Hey, Full Marin listeners have another trip down memory lane to check out this week.
Marc:We posted some segments from my radio show Morning Sedition, including talks with my mom and Ben Folds.
Guest:Yeah, I wrote a song with Nick Hornby, the guy that wrote High Fidelity and all those things.
Guest:And he just kind of cooked up out of his head this really cool story that happens to be really pretty close to Shatner's life without even knowing it.
Guest:So it was
Guest:Yeah, things came together really cool.
Guest:It was really neat.
Guest:Somehow you just cooked up a story about a Jewish guy from Canada who became a Starfleet commander?
Guest:Yeah, it's just like he had no idea.
Guest:He's like the Nostradamus.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:Well, what was it about Shatner?
Guest:Was this done with a campy sensibility or some sort of honest respect for his musical talents?
Guest:Or is there a difference for you?
Guest:I think it was honest respect for his life experience and his acting talents.
Guest:He's a really talented cat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think you can take that for granted with someone who's kind of been a thing in the business for that long.
Guest:And he's amazing.
Guest:It's a good record, but it's got some funny stuff.
Guest:I mean, he's funny, and he can't help that.
Guest:So that's in it, but it's also serious as well.
Marc:To subscribe to The Full Marin and get bonus episodes twice a week, as well as every episode of WTF ad-free, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:Here's some sludgy guitar that I kind of fucked up towards the end, but, you know, that's just the honesty of it, man.
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey La Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:That one got away from me a little bit.
Guest:It's alright.
Guest:It's alright.