Episode 1566 - Michael Rooker
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What the fuck, Canadians?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Today on the show, it's pretty exciting, actually.
Marc:There's always people that come around where I'm like, you know, I'm curious about that guy, but I never assumed I'd talk to that guy.
Marc:And, you know, then you get an opportunity to talk to him.
Marc:Now, Michael Rooker,
Marc:I mean, I mean, you know, I'm from a lot of stuff.
Marc:Mississippi Burning, Days of Thunder, JFK, Tombstone, Guardians of the Galaxy.
Marc:I actually first saw him and I don't think I ever recovered from it.
Marc:The first time I saw him was Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer.
Marc:And that movie, I think, changed my life.
Marc:I can't say in a good way.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:It was one of those movies, not unlike much of the art that I liked growing up, where it was relentless and almost seemingly pointless in its exploration of a murdering psychopath.
Marc:But it was a bold fucking movie.
Marc:And Rooker played Henry.
Marc:I don't know if you've seen this movie or you can still find it.
Marc:I assume you can still find it.
Marc:You can find everything.
Marc:But Jesus, it just blew my mind.
Marc:I think that was a period of morbid fascination for me, too.
Marc:I can't remember exactly...
Marc:when it came out, but I certainly never forgot Michael Rooker.
Marc:And he always plays a pretty scary or a scary guy or kind of heavy.
Marc:He's got an intensity that's uniquely his.
Marc:And he's one of those character actors where going into the conversation, you know, I'm nervous because I'm like, is he really like that?
Marc:I mean, you watch enough movies with somebody and you're like, well, he's got to be kind of like that, right?
Marc:I mean, he's got to be a little like that.
Marc:But very unique story, very intense guy, and very true to himself.
Marc:When he left, I was still a little scared, to tell you the truth.
Marc:But we had a good conversation.
Marc:So you have that to look forward to in a few minutes.
Marc:Are you ready?
Marc:The guy who plays the scary guys?
Marc:Yeah, that's on the way for you.
Marc:So some of the things I'm starting to realize, if I may share, outside of the fact that against my...
Marc:depression or whatever I woke up with this morning, a sort of like, Oh my God, I don't want to get out of bed really, but I'm not sleeping anymore.
Marc:And why do I don't feel great?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:What is it all about?
Marc:And then, you know, you have coffee and it shifts a little bit and you start your day.
Marc:But some of this stuff I've been thinking about, it's very interesting in Canada because
Marc:Yeah, at this point, I've been on a lot of sets.
Marc:And now Timothy Oliphant is playing a part in the show.
Marc:So he's on set with me and Owen and Elena and Peter and Lily.
Marc:And, you know, there's a kind of it's interesting to work with these people that I've I've interviewed, you know, because there's still part of me that's sort of like, yeah, I'm the guy that, you know, you came over.
Marc:We talked for a little while.
Marc:Judy Greer is also in the cast now.
Marc:I don't have a lot of scenes with her, but there's something interesting I'm noticing about I'm trying to put it together that the American ego that we are all instilled with on some level from being from there is just much different.
Marc:than the Canadian ego.
Marc:And I'm starting to feel that, or at least put that together.
Marc:And it's a good thing, because the American ego is a bit of a monster, that this sort of backdrop of entitlement and self-centeredness and a certain kind of propulsion towards...
Marc:success and winning in a certain way that never seems to go away, sort of an unfed desire for wholeness that seems to be misguided in the form of or along the lines of politics or consumerism or whatever.
Marc:It's ingrained
Marc:for generations of whatever that American experience is.
Marc:And up here, it's just different, man.
Marc:And I've talked about it before, and I guess there's some part of me that needs to continue to define it for myself, that there is sort of a ceiling to it, and I can't describe exactly what it is.
Marc:You know, I have noticed that no matter what country you go to, people are going to complain about the government.
Marc:And I'm not saying there's not a lot to complain about.
Marc:I don't know the nuances of that.
Marc:But there just seems to be... Like at first when I got up here, I'm like... Because so many Canadians, especially in show business, are like, I can't wait to get to America.
Marc:And there's part of me that's like, why?
Marc:Why?
Marc:It just seems pretty comfortable down here.
Marc:But people have aspirations.
Marc:But if you really think...
Marc:about the Canadians that are huge stars, let's just talk about ego.
Marc:Even guys with big egos that are good guys, there's a difference in terms of celebrity.
Marc:If you look at someone like Ryan Reynolds,
Marc:Now, that guy, you can't get much more ambitious than that.
Marc:And you can't really kind of make your ambitions charming as well as that guy.
Marc:But he's incredibly talented.
Marc:I like him.
Marc:He's funny.
Marc:And he seems like a good guy.
Marc:I believe he's a good guy.
Marc:But there is sort of a fundamental decency.
Marc:To his being.
Marc:Even being the hugest star in Hollywood.
Marc:There is something decent about that guy.
Marc:And I buy it.
Marc:And I think it's because he's Canadian.
Marc:Now, I'd be very upset to learn that that guy's a monster, but, you know, I mean, everyone's kind of a monster, but I just don't see it.
Marc:I don't feel it.
Marc:But I think that he is a great example of as big as, you know, the Canadian ego can get in a way.
Marc:Now, look, I'm not trying to diminish here.
Marc:I like that guy.
Marc:Yeah, and there are others, I believe, isn't Gosling Canadian?
Marc:I think he is.
Marc:Yeah, Gosling is Canadian.
Marc:That's another example.
Marc:One of the biggest movie stars in the world.
Marc:And he seems like a pretty good guy.
Marc:Right?
Marc:He just seems like a pretty decent guy.
Marc:And I think that's fundamentally because when you grow up with a Canadian ego...
Marc:Part of it happens to be being a pretty decent guy.
Marc:Now, I'm not saying there's not assholes in Canada, but I'd be willing to do some sort of sociological experiment that even the assholes here, I think, pale in comparison to American assholes.
Marc:I'm going to stand by that.
Marc:But just being on the set...
Marc:with people who are Canadian and have come up in this country with whatever makes them different, which is a positive, I can feel in a sort of isolated way the kind of parameters of my own ego and some of that just on set or in conversation.
Marc:And it's interesting, though, because I've kind of talked about this before.
Marc:It just seems like the American ego is boundless.
Marc:And you're going to be dragged by it one way or the other until you're exhausted and realize that it all amounted to nothing.
Marc:Now, I'm not saying like depression and everything else is not up here, but there is something about me kind of reeling in.
Marc:And I'm hyper aware of this, my own ego, my own behavior, my own expectations out of social situations.
Marc:And it's been good.
Marc:I think it's what they call being right-sized in the recovery racket.
Marc:There is a right-sizedness that's happening to me.
Marc:And I think it's been accelerated by being up here, which is good.
Marc:Because at 60, I need to let go of some shit.
Marc:Like, I got to stop giving a fuck.
Marc:about wherever the hell show business is, the success of other people, that kind of thing, what it takes to be a comic and whether or not that process delivers real comics or just sort of shallow clowns doing a song and dance for a bunch of dumb shits.
Marc:But you look, criticism aside, there's certain things that I've got to let go of and sort of not act my age, but at least realize that, hey,
Marc:Dude, be grateful for what you got and think about what are you comparing yourself to and what do you really want?
Marc:I know this is just psychobabble.
Marc:What do you want to talk about food?
Marc:So that's been my morning.
Marc:Again, an ongoing excitement about whatever's going on in American politics.
Marc:There's nothing quite as satisfying.
Marc:As, you know, watching the dummies have a bad day.
Marc:And by dummies, I mean monsters.
Marc:And by monsters, I mean, you know, fucking assholes.
Marc:And by assholes, you know who I mean.
Marc:So it's just nice to see the unraveling and unraveling of whatever's going on down there.
Marc:Again, don't know the outcome, but enjoying the ride currently.
Marc:So listen, I've had to reschedule a bunch of my fall tour dates and move them into next year.
Marc:You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour to check out the schedule.
Marc:A couple of the dates that weren't moved are the Rialto Theater in Tucson, Arizona, September 20th.
Marc:The Orpheum Theater in Phoenix on September 21st.
Marc:And then the new dates will be unfolding.
Marc:I'll change up the website.
Marc:You should be being notified by the venues.
Marc:It's very hard for me to keep on top of all that stuff.
Marc:You will be notified.
Marc:And always buy your tickets from the ticket outlet that is connected to the venue.
Marc:Please be wary of scalpers.
Marc:I'm not charging $200 a ticket.
Marc:Don't just look up Marc Maron tickets, Arizona, whatever.
Marc:Go to the venue and go to the venue site and get the tickets through the proper channels so you don't get fucked and you're not left holding the bag with scalp tickets.
Marc:Yeah, I am excited.
Marc:to get out there and see if I can put it together again.
Marc:The fucking vulnerability that comes from me not being able to keep my comedy guard up on a weekly basis, at least a few times a week, is a little daunting.
Marc:I don't like this much me in my me.
Marc:Does that make sense?
Marc:I do not like this much me in my me.
Marc:I don't like walking around like a weird blob.
Marc:And it still happens, but I'm aware of it.
Marc:I think it's a good exercise in acting to realize what acting you do innately in your day, in your life, and how convincing are you of that.
Marc:Once you start to realize, Jesus, that's not really me, or I'm being kind of full of shit, and wow, I can't believe I sold that.
Marc:I mean, most people are kind of amazing actors.
Marc:It's just a matter of getting control of the talent and not just using it as some sort of survival tool.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I'm excited to spend time with my cats.
Marc:I don't know if you miss cats as much as kids, but it's harder to talk to cats on FaceTime.
Marc:Look, you guys.
Marc:Michael Rooker.
Marc:This was a pretty exciting conversation for me because I went in with assumptions, as I told you before.
Marc:I assumed I'd be scared and it'd be a bit intimidating.
Marc:And it actually was both of those things.
Marc:But we had a great conversation.
Marc:He's in the new Kevin Costner Western Horizon, an American Saga part one.
Marc:It's available to rent or buy on digital platforms.
Marc:And this is me talking to the one of a kind character actor, Michael Rooker.
Marc:So you got surprised by the interview this morning.
Guest:No, I knew it was happening, but...
Guest:I was out last night.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'm going to sleep in a little bit.
Guest:Trying to get it together?
Guest:I tried to sleep in at least 10 more minutes.
Guest:Kept hitting that snooze?
Guest:Yeah, no kidding, man.
Guest:I was like, okay.
Guest:What, did you have a good time last night?
Guest:Well, I just got together with friends.
Marc:Oh, you don't live out here.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I do.
Marc:Oh, you do?
Guest:I'm up in Sanlum.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:I'm just only like 20 minutes from here.
Marc:What the hell's up there?
Marc:Well, you got like a big piece of- Nothing.
Guest:Nothing's up there.
Guest:No, it's a great little city.
Guest:Sanlum, Tejonga, La Cunada.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:All along that Flint Ridge area.
Marc:Yeah, I only know those places because if you're on a TV show of any kind that shoots here, you're going to end up up there shooting something.
Guest:Oh, serious?
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Well, you know, like if they need desert, they need old hotels.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:If they need a medical facility that's cheap.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it gets even, they have a whole big studio up, just up the five, once you get on the five.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So would you get a nice piece of property out there?
Marc:Is that what happened?
Marc:I have about an acre.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:So you've been out here a long time?
Guest:Yeah, maybe 24 years.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I guess you're just one of those guys where I'm like, that guy's got to live out on a farm somewhere.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, it's not a farm by any means.
Marc:No, but you don't strike me as an L.A.
guy.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know about this place, man.
Guest:But you've been here 24 years.
Guest:Yeah, because we bought a house.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, have some kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Got grandkids.
Guest:You got grandkids?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like new or they're... A little new one.
Guest:I got a new one that's almost a year now.
Guest:She's about nine months now.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:And then a 10-year-old and a...
Guest:And a seven-year-old.
Marc:And you're just easing into it.
Marc:Was that always the plan?
Guest:Oh, it's great.
Guest:I think it's great, actually.
Guest:It's like having your own kids, but you can give them back, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, okay, go to mommy.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You get a second chance.
Guest:Yeah, go to mommy.
Marc:You're not responsible for all the wiring.
Guest:I'm always responsible.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like that's my bane of my existence.
Marc:Oh, you feel responsible.
Guest:Yeah, I grew up with six women in my house, so my five sisters and me.
Marc:Five sisters?
Guest:Like where did you come in the lineup?
Guest:I was daddy.
Guest:I was like the— The oldest?
Guest:Yeah, so— Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, so I was always making sure everything was—
Guest:Making sure everything was right, making sure they're inside, making sure they do their homework, making sure the boyfriends are not too idiotic.
Guest:I found that you only have to beat one up really good, and the others fall in line just quite well.
Guest:That's like a mob rule.
Guest:It works.
Guest:Teach one a lesson.
Guest:Take some pictures.
Guest:A real nice lesson.
Guest:You don't even have to take pictures.
Guest:They just know?
Guest:It's all over in the neighborhood.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Where was that?
Guest:In Chicago.
Guest:I grew up in Chicago.
Guest:Well, since I was 13.
Guest:I was in Alabama, but we moved to Chicago, so I was there.
Guest:What part of Alabama?
Chicago.
Guest:Jasper, a little town called Jasper.
Guest:Do you have memories of it?
Guest:You got people down there?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I still got people there.
Guest:I still got aunts and some cousins.
Guest:My half-brother's there.
Guest:Well, half-brother.
Guest:My brother from my mom's first marriage.
Marc:Oh, so, yeah, I've not spent that much time in Alabama.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, it's one of those places that gets pretty judged pretty harshly all the time.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know why.
Guest:It's a beautiful space.
Marc:It is beautiful.
Marc:I was in Birmingham.
Guest:Birmingham's gorgeous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, they've come a long way.
Guest:Birmingham used to be all train, very industrial.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so, and now it's gorgeous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great downtown.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's all like kind of redone.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And my little town is just north of that, so.
Marc:Oh, it is.
Guest:Yeah, and so.
Guest:It's a lovely little town.
Guest:I don't own any property down there, but Chicago is basically where I call my home, my old neighborhood.
Guest:So your mom just moved up there?
Guest:Yeah, well, my mom and dad divorced.
Marc:Is he still around, any of them?
Guest:No, they both have passed.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So you went to Chicago with your mom?
Guest:Yeah, my mom brought us to Chicago.
Guest:All of you.
Guest:To live with my dad because he never sent money to us for food, right?
Guest:So we were just these little hillbilly kids, single mom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No food.
Guest:Six of you.
Guest:Six of us, yeah.
Guest:No food?
Marc:No food, no food.
Marc:What was the housing situation like?
Marc:No food.
Guest:Was the house already?
Guest:I grew up in a house that had no electricity.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:No running water.
Guest:Plumbing?
Guest:Outside.
Marc:No plumbing.
Guest:Outside plumbing.
Marc:No plumbing.
Guest:It was just an outside.
Guest:It was a hole in the ground in a little shack.
Guest:It's called an outhouse.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And that's how we grew up.
Guest:That's how I grew up.
Marc:And you have memories of that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:And then five other camps.
Guest:I have, yeah.
Guest:And I have like, you know, our entertainment would be to crawl up on...
Guest:Crawl on top of the roof.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And lay down and watch the stars.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Well, that's not so bad.
Guest:It's when you could see the stars.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You can't even see the stars anymore.
Guest:I mean, I would wager most people that live out here, most kids that live out here have never seen the Milky Way.
Guest:But the Milky Way is above us all the time.
Guest:There's just so much light in our system right now.
Guest:We can't see.
Guest:It's just, I remember it being so amazing and beautiful.
Marc:It's amazing when you can see them all.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, you go some places and you just have that moment.
Marc:You're like, holy fuck.
Marc:They're there.
Guest:And then you drive on by.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Can we pull over and look at this?
Guest:Yeah, take it in.
Guest:You know, at night, you're driving at night, you'll be out in the middle of desert, Arizona someplace, and you just got to pull over.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Every now and then you see a couple shooting stars, you get up, whoa, and it gets your attention, you look up, and you go...
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've never seen this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's just such a shame.
Guest:And that's what we do.
Guest:I mean, the kids, you know, you're just looking up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there are a lot of other kids in the neighborhood?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I had other relatives there, and there are other kids around.
Guest:Oh, my.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:Like, it's hard for me to conceive of growing up like that, but I guess you adapt.
Guest:You do.
Guest:And it's like...
Guest:You know, when we have brownouts and electrical outages and stuff like that, and people are going, yeah, nowadays, people are going, oh, no, oh, my God, oh, dear me, oh, dear me.
Guest:And I'm like...
Guest:What's the problem?
Guest:It'll be all right.
Guest:Light a candle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, light a candle.
Guest:We had coal oil lamps.
Guest:That's what they were called.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Little lamps, little glass lamps that had oil in the bottom and a little... Yeah.
Guest:And a little...
Guest:thing on the bottom there a little bulbous thing with oil and the little wick going up you just light that and you have light I mean if you have some sort of ventilation you know open a window or something like that you have screens so mosquitoes and other insects don't get in trying to get into the light you're fine it's going to be okay
Marc:So at one point, your mom just snaps and says, we're going?
Marc:Well, she had to, you know.
Guest:She had no means of taking care of these kids.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And one of them was a baby, right?
Guest:There was a bunch of kids, you know, and our neighbor.
Guest:Her name was Gusty Stockard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Gusty Stockard fed us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So this lady would like holler at my mom.
Guest:My mom's name was Hazel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you, you know, by seven or something like that, you'd hear, hey, Hazel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, she's probably about, you know, 250, 300 yards down the hillside.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she'd call us down there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And mom would go down there and they'd talk for like 15, 20 minutes, something like that.
Guest:And she'd holler back up to one of the kids or whoever, me or whoever.
Guest:And we'd go down and we would have these tubs of food.
Guest:And she intentionally overcooked.
Guest:It was just for her and her husband.
Guest:So she would intentionally overcook.
Guest:And I have so much leftovers that every night or every other night, she'd call us down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that lady, trust me.
Guest:Saved you.
Guest:Is an angel.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:She knew.
Guest:Saved us, for sure.
Marc:Do you, like, in your mind, though, like, looking back on it, do you have bitterness or just okay memories?
Guest:No, I have beautiful memories.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah, I have beautiful memories.
Guest:You know, I didn't know my dad that much and stuff, so... He went to Chicago?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To work or just... To work, to find work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He found work.
Guest:He also found another woman.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And just stayed there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He just stayed there.
Guest:And so...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what did you guys take the bus up?
Marc:Took a train.
Marc:Took the train to Chicago.
Marc:Took the train.
Guest:I remember that train.
Guest:Took a train to Chicago.
Guest:And I remember the train stopping in the middle of this gorge.
Guest:I mean, a really deep, deep gorge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're on a train.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're in the middle of this train track.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you look out the window as little kids.
Guest:And it just went down, down, down, down, down.
Marc:I don't know where that was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was like quite scary.
Yeah.
Marc:But also the shift because you must have come into Union Station and that's spectacular.
Marc:And I imagine like coming from Jasper.
Guest:Well, coming from Jasper, coming from a little country environment and into the city, it was a big deal.
Marc:I can't imagine that it's just been overwhelming.
Guest:We lived in Cicero, Cicero, Illinois, for about two or three years before my mom came back and got us, and we moved in with her.
Marc:In Chicago.
Guest:In Chicago.
Guest:So we lived with my dad and our stepmom for a couple of years.
Guest:All six of you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, and she already had two kids.
Guest:A poor woman.
What?
Guest:I mean, my God, now she's got six more.
Guest:Was that chaos?
Guest:For her.
Guest:Yeah, for us.
Guest:We were fine.
Guest:We were just kids.
Guest:I grew up in a time when you go outside and play, and you're outside and you're playing until dinner time.
Marc:Yeah, they keep you out of the house.
Guest:This is not like go outside and play and I'll see you in 20 minutes.
Guest:Stay in the yard.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:All day.
Marc:You know, all day.
Marc:Until it gets dark, maybe even later than that.
Marc:And then someone yells your name and you got to go back.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pretty much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So during all this.
Guest:It's kind of a great life for a kid.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, also, you got built-in other kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you got cousins and all the friends you make in the neighborhood.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're all cool.
Marc:So, once you got old enough, were you going into Chicago?
Guest:Were you doing like, you know... Well, no, we were already in Chicago by the time I became, you know... And what was the scene like?
Guest:An older teenager, like 14, 15, 16.
Marc:What was it like doing that in that city?
Guest:I grew up in sort of more of an inner city, Chicago.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was...
Guest:Ashland, Milwaukee Avenue, Division Street.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:It's just near Northside.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not too far from the ballpark.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Cubs.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Comiskey Park.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's called, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not too far from there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do... Just an old neighborhood.
Marc:Rogers Park is near Rogers Park?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I know Rogers Park.
Guest:That's further north.
Guest:That's up... I still have a house there.
Guest:That's further north.
Guest:You used to have a house there or you got one now?
Guest:I still got one.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I kept it.
Guest:My sister-in-law and...
Guest:Her live-in friend is there, and they take care of it for me and stuff.
Marc:And so, like, growing up in Chicago, you know, what are you doing?
Marc:You running around?
Marc:You're moving around.
Marc:You're playing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You're taking care of your sister is what you're doing.
Marc:Yeah, because they're all still teenagers and younger.
Guest:Yeah, they're younger and stuff.
Marc:But was there music and stuff?
Marc:Like, was there a scene?
Guest:We were just inner-city kids.
Guest:We didn't really, until you got, you know, into your...
Guest:High school, college age, you didn't really go out and get into the music scene or anything like that.
Marc:Not too much trouble?
Guest:Not too much trouble.
Guest:Trouble's already there.
Guest:It's like you're already in the middle of trouble.
Guest:So it's really just trying not to get in trouble.
Guest:You don't have to make your own trouble.
Guest:It's there already.
Marc:So when does the acting start?
Guest:Oh, that all started late.
Guest:I was a late bloomer.
Marc:So, like, how old?
Guest:Yeah, I was in junior college.
Guest:So you go to high school.
Guest:Yeah, I met some—I was going to go play football.
Marc:Were you good enough to play real ball?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, and I was really good.
Guest:I'm very physical, and I can do lots of stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was going to go play for Wisconsin, and—
Guest:But then I basically did all the interviews, did all the tryouts and all that stuff.
Guest:But then I just sort of, I backed away from it.
Marc:Out of fear of injury?
Guest:No, just there was nobody to take care of my family there.
Marc:So it was really on you.
Guest:Yeah, I was the only one working three jobs.
Guest:I worked three jobs.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:So I was busy all the time, you know, and having fun with, you know, being special.
Guest:Knowing the neighborhood, knowing everybody.
Guest:I was never in any gangs.
Guest:There were gangs all over.
Marc:Well, it's a hell of a responsibility.
Marc:I mean, I don't know how you're going to find time for that.
Marc:It's really on you to make sure all the other sibs are.
Guest:Yeah, so there was no way I could go away to college.
Guest:So I decided to stay in town and do a junior college.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Save some money.
Marc:And you could still be tapped in with the family.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And I sleep at home, you know, so I go back, I drive back and forth, that kind of thing.
Marc:Well, that's why you got that innate responsibility thing that everybody has to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:So you're going to junior college and you don't know what you're doing?
Guest:I meet some actors.
Guest:No, I didn't know what I wanted.
Guest:I was studying and getting all my basic stuff out of the way, but I still enjoyed sports, so I was going to teach or something like that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And a friend of mine realized that I was studying and I was studying phys ed and all that.
Guest:And he said, well, why don't you do this great job?
Guest:And so I worked for the Chicago Park District.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Doing what?
Guest:A phys ed instructor.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So I worked full time and went to school part time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For a couple of years.
Guest:Just teaching kids?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Basically?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I decided, okay, this is like, oh, I'm getting so tired of this.
Guest:And I burned out with being at the park.
Marc:What would the future be for that?
Marc:You know, be a PE coach at a high school or something?
Guest:So I...
Guest:So I flipped it.
Guest:I flipped it.
Guest:I ended up going to school full time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And working part time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So before I was working full time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going to school part time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm going to flip it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why I did that.
Guest:And that's where I sort of met actors.
Marc:You say it with your face scrunched up.
Guest:Well, they weren't very good, you know.
Marc:But were they, was there any, you don't seem like real actor-y at that level.
Marc:Actors, no.
Marc:So there's judgment, like what the hell are these guys doing?
Guest:Yeah, they're playing games and stuff like that.
Guest:I'm not a big game player guy.
Guest:Unless it's sports.
Guest:Yeah, or unless, you know, it's life or death.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The big game.
Guest:The big game.
Guest:Who's going to win?
Guest:Who's going to lose?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:We all lose.
Guest:Come on, baby.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:You know, that kind of game.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So I met all these actors.
Guest:They were fun.
Guest:Just a bunch of... I had a great time hanging out with them and going to their shows and watching their shows.
Guest:But to be honest, they were enjoying themselves.
Guest:But I always... I was always, even from childhood, I was always very...
Guest:I don't want to say judgmental, but I was always very aware of bullshit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's bullshit.
Guest:Acting?
Guest:You don't drink a Coca-Cola that way.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:When you're watching.
Guest:So you're watching a commercial or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just, no, no.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's not the way you do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I was all, you know, I was that kind of kid growing up.
Guest:And then when I'm meeting and hanging out with these actors and I go see their shows and I'm like,
Guest:I don't know about this.
Marc:Does it seem real?
Guest:Yeah, and they always want to know what I thought.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I made up this rule.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't drink a lot of beer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I made up this rule.
Guest:If you ask me...
Guest:how how was the show yeah and i respond by you owe me a beer yeah that means you guys sucked i can't i can't get my time back that or i say to them i owe you a beer yeah on this one i owe you guys a beer on this one so so that was our that was our code that was our code yeah or we need more work on this show yeah or we did okay on this show
Marc:And what were the shows, like just standard kind of college drama?
Guest:College drama stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's about it.
Marc:And when did you do your first role?
Guest:Well, I didn't really do anything.
Guest:I got down on myself a little bit.
Guest:I was like, what a jerk.
Marc:For what?
Marc:Judging and not doing it?
Marc:What a dick, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm judging, but I never tried it, never did it.
Guest:So I decided to take some classes.
Marc:In Chicago?
Marc:Or at the school?
Marc:Yeah, at the school.
Guest:I took some classes, and I ended up being pretty good.
Guest:Do you remember the teacher?
Guest:I liked...
Guest:Don't remember any names.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I enjoyed it.
Guest:I enjoyed it.
Guest:And I ended up being a little different than anyone else.
Marc:Was it like a scene study kind of thing?
Guest:Scene study.
Guest:And I also did literature stuff where you analyze.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:you know, figure out why the author's saying what he's saying and all that stuff.
Marc:That's interesting he locked into that, isn't he?
Guest:And I was very good at that.
Guest:I was more better at that than I thought.
Guest:I didn't even, I still didn't do acting.
Marc:At analysis of the story.
Guest:I was just, you know, thinking about why, how, what's going on here, you know?
Guest:We would have, we would have discussions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What do you think's going on in this passage?
Guest:And people would say this and this and this, and Worker, what do you think?
Guest:And I'd tell him my,
Guest:my perception of what was going on there.
Guest:And it was completely different than anybody else's.
Guest:I mean, honest.
Guest:I was like, I wasn't even sure I wanted to speak up because it was so different.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, but when I, when I would say what I, this is what I think's going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was dead on, dead on.
Guest:And I always, and I, several times I've made statements like, I don't even think the author knows why he wrote this, my friend.
Guest:Because this is what's really going on here.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:And so I was always able to read underneath the subplots.
Guest:The subtext, you get the subtext.
Guest:Underneath the subtext.
Guest:And what's written, what's going on in between the lines.
Guest:That's my forte, so...
Marc:And so that informs the acting quite a bit.
Marc:It does.
Marc:Because you can make choices that are not the common choice.
Guest:No, your choices are based on not what is going on, not what the lines say.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But what the lines really mean.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or what the lines are...
Guest:perceived to me right yeah a lot of writers will write but they sure they're they're writing as the characters and the characters don't want anyone to know what they're what's really going on and also sometimes how you doing means go fuck yourself yeah this is true right or what's it to you exactly so when do you actually take or or this
Marc:Yeah, which is a little harder to define, but equally as scary.
Guest:I'm pretty good at not talking.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Just looking and you know what I mean.
Marc:Yeah, and I would say 80% of the time it's a little scary.
Guest:Yeah, because those are the moments that generate...
Guest:That energy.
Marc:Tension.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so you're doing a film or something like that, and you want to make those choices.
Guest:The choices that you make are vital, you know, for whether or not people are going to stop chewing their popcorn and listen.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it seems like from the beginning,
Marc:that in terms of the characters you do, Menace was always part of it.
Guest:I was always good at that.
Guest:And I grew up doing it.
Guest:How so?
Guest:Well, back to my sisters again.
Marc:Stay away from my sister.
Guest:Yeah, that kind of stuff.
Guest:I was always good at that.
Guest:I was always very good at...
Guest:Leaving a nice warning so that you understood without getting physical.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, and it's good.
Guest:Knowing that we're not too different than our animal cousins out in the wild.
Guest:They don't want to get hurt.
Guest:They want...
Guest:They want prey that they can easily take down and eat and survive.
Guest:Same thing with these guys on the street.
Guest:The same thing.
Guest:They're nothing but coyotes in these packs.
Guest:They're nothing but wild animals.
Guest:No matter if you've got three or four guys, you still don't want to get hurt.
Marc:Yeah, if possible.
Guest:Because I don't mind going against three or four guys.
Guest:Don't bother me at all.
Guest:You know, I may lose, but baby, you're going to get hurt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so you're not going to walk away from this.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Unscathed.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:How often did you have to fight?
Guest:Not too often.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I was a nice guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But intimidating.
Guest:I was a nice guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In my neighborhood, I was the nice guy, okay?
Guest:Matt Rooker's the nicest guy on the block.
Guest:There are way darker creatures out there than I. Yeah.
Guest:But you can play them.
Guest:I know how to play them, but I don't ever want to be them, you know?
Marc:Yeah, I tell you, man, even when I knew I was going to interview you, I was like, am I going to be scared?
Marc:That's great.
Marc:I've watched this guy all my life.
Marc:I'm a little nervous.
Guest:People are interesting when they first meet me sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They realize, oh.
Yeah.
Guest:is actually a little bit funny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, I find that with most people that, you know, but, like, because of the number of scary fucks that you played... Yeah, that's true.
Guest:I don't blame you.
Guest:You know, I don't blame you.
Marc:Yeah, it's... But how do you... Like, how do you get from, you know, when you first start to do the acting, you know, what's your experience with it?
Marc:I mean, you're still in college.
Guest:I realize that I'm really good at intimidating your ass.
Guest:But did you get... And I'm very good at it.
Guest:And I do... I make...
Guest:those line readings end up being somewhat personal and which makes it more intimidating.
Marc:But did you get off on it?
Marc:I mean, did you like right away?
Marc:Did you like, oh, this is for me?
Marc:Oh, acting.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Once I started taking an acting class, started doing acting,
Guest:Because this was all literature stuff.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Reading that, yeah.
Guest:Understanding that, oh, my God, this is what it really means.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And realizing that out of the 30, 40 people in class, I couldn't believe nobody else was getting this.
Guest:You don't get what they're saying.
Guest:I couldn't believe that.
Guest:And so it was a little odd that...
Guest:I was the only one getting it.
Guest:That was my take on it.
Guest:It was my take.
Marc:And it was unique.
Guest:And my take is unique.
Guest:And I've always had a little bad hearing.
Guest:So I was just talking to my wife earlier.
Guest:Bad hearing.
Guest:I just realized that my hearing influenced my responses.
Guest:Because you're hearing sometimes the wrong thing, and you're responding in a certain way because of what you think, what your brain is perceiving you're hearing, right?
Guest:Because I just went to the doctor the other day, and he says, it's your brain that hears, not necessarily the ears.
Marc:Sure, and that's like 90% of acting is listening.
Guest:Yeah, and so I was always a good listener, but it was always painful to listen because I wasn't sure if I was hearing the right thing.
Guest:And I'd say, I'd do stuff like that.
Guest:What?
Guest:Or, what'd you say to me?
Guest:Or, wait a minute.
Guest:I don't fucking get you.
Guest:What'd you just say?
Guest:Stuff like that.
Guest:But it was only because you couldn't hear.
Guest:Only because I couldn't hear.
Guest:Not because I was trying to be intimidating.
Marc:And that became your character.
Marc:It helped.
Marc:Your own timing.
Guest:It helped, yeah.
Guest:And I couldn't, I could hear, but it was always that little, that little, oh, did they say this or did they say this?
Marc:Or tone issue.
Marc:You can't get the tone.
Marc:But so how do you get from like a, you know, junior college acting?
Guest:Oh, I decided that I wanted to pursue this.
Marc:In Chicago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's a good place.
Guest:Well, not necessarily in Chicago.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:But I just want to pursue it.
Guest:So I spoke with my professor and stuff, and he recommended... I was going to go to New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was going to go to New York and pursue acting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like 90% of people, whoever wants to be an actor.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They want to go there.
Marc:Start there.
Guest:But my professor was...
Guest:I wish I remembered his name, but he was really smart.
Guest:He was a graduate of the Goodman School of Drama out of Chicago.
Guest:And that school was at the Art Institute, downtown Chicago.
Guest:And he said, why don't you try out here?
Guest:You got to try out.
Guest:It's a conservatory program.
Guest:You have to be asked back.
Guest:You know, you have to put out, basically.
Guest:And if they don't think you're doing your job, then you don't get asked back.
Guest:So I was like, I don't care.
Guest:I'm cool with that.
Guest:So after I got out of junior college.
Marc:What, two years?
Guest:Two years of school.
Guest:And I got a job.
Guest:I drove a CTA bus.
Guest:You know, the bus, the reticulator buses and all the buses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just drove the buses.
Guest:Was that a union gig?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I drove the buses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what I did.
Marc:Your bus driver.
Guest:Yeah, I was a bus driver for maybe two years or so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I pulled up at the stop and here was...
Guest:The Goodman School of Drama.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought to myself, oh, that's that school.
Guest:That's the school.
Guest:So you would let it go?
Guest:I'd let it go.
Marc:I was working.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I let it go.
Guest:I was working.
Guest:I was making money.
Guest:I had to make money.
Guest:And you had like a... I had to make money.
Guest:I just... Pensions.
Guest:I'm still part of my sisters.
Guest:My mom.
Guest:I just had to make money.
Guest:I couldn't like mess around and not make money, you know.
Guest:And now you know how to drive a bus.
Guest:And I can... That's right.
Guest:I can drive a bus like...
Guest:Yeah, I was pretty good.
Guest:I'd never crashed the stupid thing.
Marc:But yeah.
Marc:So you pull up in front of there.
Guest:I pull up and there it is.
Guest:And then I remembered where it was.
Guest:And so I went back like maybe a week or two later when I had some time off and I went in, walked in off the street.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, yeah, what's going on here, you know?
Guest:How does it work?
Guest:How does it work?
Guest:And so I got an application.
Guest:And me being me, I'm always, like, doing my research.
Guest:And so...
Guest:This was in the middle of school year.
Guest:Classes were going on and stuff like that.
Guest:And I thought about it and I got the application.
Guest:I filled it out.
Guest:It took months to get a response.
Guest:I thought they had forgotten about me and everything.
Guest:But in the meantime...
Guest:It was the summer, and I took some summer classes at the school.
Marc:For anybody, you can just sign up.
Guest:For anybody, just anybody off the street come in.
Guest:So I took some summer classes, and some of the higher-end professors and teachers were there during the summer just to make extra money, too.
Guest:So I got to meet...
Guest:and work with the acting coaches and stuff like that before I went in for my actual audition to be a full-time student.
Marc:Almost like a prep.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And I got to know them.
Guest:So when I went in there, there they all were.
Guest:And I already knew them.
Guest:They already knew my work.
Guest:And I felt more comfortable.
Guest:I didn't feel like, oh, here are like...
Guest:eight of eight strangers that i have to do these monologues and be all nervous and i wasn't nervous at all went in did my stuff they stopped me and asked me to do a couple more things yeah i did a couple more things and and uh you know like about six or seven weeks later right you got in i'd gotten in yeah do you remember your monologues
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I do remember that I had to do a classical and a modern.
Guest:And basically the same thing most students would have to do.
Guest:So that's what I had to do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I forgot what I've... It's been a long time.
Guest:But they ended up okay.
Guest:Then they had me pitch quarters against the wall.
Guest:And do the monologue at the same time.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:He gave me a quarter out of his pocket, one of my instructors, one of the guys there.
Guest:He says, you know, you grew up in the neighborhood.
Guest:Go ahead, pitch some pennies, pitch some quarters against the wall.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm going to do one too.
Guest:We're going to...
Guest:We're going to compete here.
Guest:And I'm very competitive.
Guest:And so I'm always like, you know, and I'm doing the monologue at the same time.
Marc:And trying to win.
Guest:And trying to win at the same time.
Guest:And laughing because I just kicked his ass.
Guest:You know, stuff like that.
Guest:So it gave a whole different element to...
Guest:to the monologue, as opposed to just standing up there in the middle of the floor spouting off.
Marc:That's a very interesting exercise.
Guest:And it worked.
Guest:I think that exercise is actually the one that nailed it and got me into school.
Marc:I'd never heard anything like that.
Marc:Isn't that cool?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you did, what, two years there?
Guest:It's a three-year course.
Marc:And you just did the whole time.
Marc:So you got real training.
Guest:Yeah, isn't that crazy?
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:I got some real theater training.
Marc:Doing shows?
Guest:Doing shows.
Guest:I was never in one of the, I was never, most students get to be in the children's theater.
Guest:They have a professional kind of really high-end children's theater.
Guest:Not you?
Guest:No, they never put me in any of the, they thought I'd be a bad influence or something.
Marc:You couldn't even play a pleasant monster.
Yeah.
Marc:This guy's going to take the dragon and scare the kids.
Guest:It was so funny.
Guest:I never got to do that.
Marc:There's still time, Michael.
Marc:You can still do it.
Marc:Children's theater?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I would love to see that.
Marc:I would love to see you in a children's movie.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I could do it.
Marc:of course you could yeah yeah i could do it so but the thing is is like i was gonna tell you you know that movie that first movie you were in like i was kind of obsessed with that movie oh my first movie henry oh my god jesus like i had the poster like i had it framed it was a joe coleman the artist did the poster for that and i was i was a big joe coleman sign it for you
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what happened to it.
Marc:I'm so mad.
Marc:I had it for years.
Marc:Oh, no, it's probably still around.
Marc:It got lost in the stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But when I saw that movie, you know, I was like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:Yeah, this is true.
Marc:Because, like, I don't remember, let's see, like, I don't remember what year is that, but, like, you know, indie movies.
Marc:So, 86, it wasn't like there was this whole indie world.
Guest:Yeah, and we'd done it before that.
Guest:We had filmed before that.
Guest:It just came out of nowhere.
Guest:It took that long.
Guest:It took another year or so to get out.
Yeah.
Marc:But how did that happen?
Marc:I mean, how did you get that?
Guest:I was doing a play.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was doing a Scottish play or an Irish, Northern Irish.
Guest:It was a Donegal.
Guest:It was about these two people that fell in love
Guest:Oh, that guy McNaughton did a lot of stuff.
Guest:Over their letters.
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Guest:And then they finally meet.
Guest:That was the play you were in, yeah.
Guest:And they realize they're not really meant for one another.
Guest:He still wants to go fishing out on the seas.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And she's a city girl, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so the guy who directed that, he did all the prosthetic work.
Guest:For the movie.
Marc:Oh, for Henry?
Marc:For Henry.
Guest:And he was working on this show.
Guest:And he said, oh, dude, there's this show I'm working on.
Guest:And man, they can't find their guy.
Guest:You should go audition for this.
Guest:And I go, oh, okay.
Guest:And so one day I got dressed after the show, after a rehearsal or something like that.
Guest:And I got dressed.
Guest:And I still worked for the show.
Guest:The bus?
Guest:The bus.
Guest:Yeah, I still drove to CTA.
Guest:I worked for CTA.
Guest:And so I got my bus driving stuff on, you know, the jacket, the pants, my shoes, white socks, whatever I had on, you know.
Guest:And I go to the address.
Guest:I was going to go and audition before I got to work.
Guest:And I knock on the door and he opens the door and here I am dressed in my CTA bus driving outfit.
Guest:And yeah, come on in.
Guest:So he tells the story, I knew it was our Henry.
Guest:I knew this was the guy as soon as I opened the door and saw him in the door frame there.
Guest:And so I went in and they didn't really have a full on script.
Guest:I read stuff from I got three by five cards.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, he must have just been with at the time.
Marc:I mean, he must have just been busted not too long before that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Henry Lucas.
Guest:I mean, yeah, because there was still there was still unsolved murders.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was still he was busted.
Guest:He was in jail.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was still doing interviews.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And he was playing the system big time.
Guest:So he was still doing interviews and all that.
Guest:And so I had seen him before the movie started.
Guest:I'd seen his interviews.
Guest:And some—I saw an interview from a security camera of him being interviewed by a Texas Ranger.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I couldn't see very well because it was—
Guest:kind of far away, but I can hear his voice and hear his cadence.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, and that's kind of what I, I, I, I respond audibly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For a lot of things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, cause I'm always listening harder than I should listen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, cause he can't hear.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm listening and I'm listening and I'm, I'm checking out his cadence.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so that was, and you showed up for the audition with that.
Yeah.
Guest:I know I had already auditioned, already got the job.
Marc:So that was part of the research.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Man, because I tell you, you went on to do a lot of movies, but every time I saw that dude who played Otis, I'm like, oh, shit.
Marc:That's the dude that played Otis.
Guest:Yeah, and Otis went on to play a lot of stuff, too.
Guest:Yeah, he did.
Guest:He was a really good actor.
Guest:But I couldn't separate him.
Guest:Oh, I bet.
Guest:I bet.
Guest:Like, for some reason.
Guest:Well, you'd probably seen the movie like 20 times.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I haven't watched it in a long time.
Marc:I just remember.
Guest:There are people that I've met over the years that have seen that movie multiple, multiple times growing up.
Guest:They started when they were like 12 watching the movie.
Marc:It's an unbelievable movie.
Marc:It's unbelievable.
Marc:I didn't realize McNaughton was such a huge director.
Marc:He's directed a lot of stuff.
Guest:He's wrecked a bunch of stuff, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, still working.
Guest:He's very picky, though.
Marc:Mad Dog and Glory, that was good.
Marc:Bill Murray.
Marc:And Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll.
Marc:What was that, the Eric Bogosian thing?
Marc:Must have been.
Marc:So after that, you were kind of a made guy?
Yeah.
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:Not even close.
Guest:Nobody wanted to see it.
Guest:Nobody wanted to see it.
Marc:It's not a feel-good movie.
Guest:They'd send it out, and it'd just be like, no responses.
Guest:I'd get no response.
Guest:My break came when I'd gone in to audition.
Guest:I'd get a call on the phone if I would send in a tape.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For Eight Men Out.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:A movie called Eight Men Out.
Marc:John Sayles.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Great.
Guest:And I was like not into taping.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like people are not into doing remote auditions.
Marc:What was the hassle then?
Marc:You got to get a guy with a camera.
Marc:You got to go find a guy with a camera.
Guest:Well, you did it yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:With a VHS.
Marc:VHS.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But if you had a friend that had a camera, that'd be better.
Guest:But if you had your own equipment, you could.
Guest:The same thing that's going on today.
Guest:People are investing in thousands of dollars.
Guest:in this audition setup so that they can do their own auditions, their virtual auditions.
Guest:And it's like, oh, my God.
Marc:I got a job off a phone video of an audition.
Marc:I just had that woman who was my trainer who was also an actress.
Marc:I'm like, all right, just do the lines and hold the phone.
Guest:It works.
Guest:I mean, you can put a selfie, put on video, and do your stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but it was a little bit of a hassle back then.
Marc:So you, you put yourself on tape for eight men out and it was one of the, one of the guys on.
Guest:I never, I never did.
Marc:Oh, you didn't.
Guest:No, I never did.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And because they, they were called, someone called me up and they, they got, they had gotten my number from some of the theaters around town.
Guest:Cause I did, I did mostly theater at that time.
Marc:In Chicago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You ever do Steppenwolf?
Guest:No, never did.
Guest:I was never part of a group.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I was always.
Marc:Did you ever go see shows over there or anything?
Guest:No.
Marc:That's kind of a heavy crew.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I knew the guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I never, I never would go and... You're more of a loner.
Guest:I didn't want, yeah, I didn't watch a lot of theater.
Guest:I just, I would just audition and do it.
Marc:Sure, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't go, I didn't have, I didn't want to take time to go out and watch a full night of theater.
Guest:I was, I was basically working or something.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I still had my, I still had my gig.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so, um... So you go in, you meet sales?
Mm-hmm.
Guest:I get this call, and they'd gotten my name through some theaters that I'd worked with in the past.
Guest:And they wanted me to do a little audition tape.
Guest:And I was like, let's see, I was deathly not for audition tapes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Not into taping.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't want to tell them, go, you know, jump in a lake.
Guest:I'm not going to tape for you.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I said, well...
Guest:where are you at?
Guest:I mean, I could just come in.
Guest:And they said, oh, I'm sorry, hon.
Guest:We're way down in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Guest:And so.
Marc:It's not far.
Guest:And all of a sudden I go like, what?
Guest:Indianapolis?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, damn, I'm down there this weekend, you know.
Guest:I'll just hang out for another extra day and I'll come in.
Guest:And they're like, yeah, I'm coming down for a family barbecue, you know.
Guest:Were you?
Guest:Fuck no, you know.
Guest:And they go, oh, that would be awesome.
Guest:It's not that bad a drive, though, from Chicago, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's not that bad of a drive if you have money to drive that far.
Guest:Take the bus.
Guest:Drive the bus.
Yeah.
Guest:And they go, oh, okay.
Guest:And I said, well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
Guest:I'll get my agent to give you guys a call.
Guest:You set up a time and I'll see you then.
Guest:I'm fine.
Guest:Okay, thank you.
Guest:Bye.
Guest:Click.
Guest:Unbeknownst to them and...
Guest:For me, of course, I knew because I had just fired all my agents.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In Chicago, you could be multi-listed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had like four agents, five agents.
Guest:So every one of them had photos and all this.
Guest:And they never sent them out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like wasting money.
Guest:with four or five agents, like for TV and film stuff.
Guest:And I never got called in, and I was like, ah, screw this.
Guest:And so I basically went there, because every other two or three months, they'd want new photos.
Guest:And I was like, oh my, are you serious?
Guest:I mean, it's costing money, you know?
Marc:It's a big deal.
Marc:And they're probably in a racket with the photographer.
Guest:Yeah, of course they are.
Guest:Of course they are.
Guest:And so I finally just decided, literally a week before I got the call from the John Sells people,
Guest:I fired everybody.
Guest:I went into each individual agency and I fired them.
Guest:I said, you're fired.
Guest:I want all my photos and resumes.
Guest:All the different looks.
Guest:I want all the different looks.
Guest:And the poor lady at the desk was like, she's never had anybody say this to her before.
Guest:I said, no, no, no, I'm serious, love.
Guest:Go get my stuff.
Guest:You're fired.
Guest:I want them all right now.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Guest:And all the other actors are waiting.
Guest:They're hearing me do this.
Guest:And I get all my shit, and I leave.
Guest:I go to the next agent, and I do the same thing.
Guest:By the end of the day, all my friends are calling me.
Guest:I go, dude.
Guest:did you did you do this did you and i said yeah i'm fed up with it i'm just you know what i'll audition for the plays i want to work on and the others i won't yeah and i don't need an agent for that i do that myself so i was going to do it all myself yeah audition so you go out to indianapolis agentless so that's right i have no agent but i called i called the only agent in town
Guest:Gallagher was her last name.
Guest:I called the only agent in town and said, okay, look, this is the deal.
Marc:In Chicago?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can be my agent, okay?
Guest:I just got this call from these people and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:All you have to do is call, make an appointment.
Guest:You'll get the 10%.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if I get the gig.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she goes, great.
Yeah.
Marc:Never heard from... She didn't know you at all.
Marc:Didn't know me.
Marc:No, didn't know me at all.
Marc:It was the only one that you didn't fire, though.
Guest:That's the only one I hadn't fired.
Guest:And so she did.
Guest:She called me back, said, I have an appointment for you for this time and this time, and you're going to be getting to read with John Sayles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I go, seriously?
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, thank you very much.
Guest:Yeah, and you drove out there.
Guest:And then I realized...
Guest:Oh, I really don't have any money right now.
Guest:So I went to my sister and I borrowed $45 for gas.
Guest:And I put it in my tank and I drove down there.
Guest:And I ended up sleeping in my car for about a day or so before going in the next morning.
Guest:And I had a big fight argument with the casting director.
Marc:Before you met Sales.
Guest:Before I even... As I got into the... Yeah.
Guest:I had just driven in the middle of winter.
Marc:Like three hours, four hours?
Guest:Cold.
Guest:There's a hole in my floorboard.
Guest:I had to drive with my windows open so I wouldn't get asphyxiated.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I got there, and I still had to sleep in the car for the thing the next day.
Guest:And so... And I'm doing this because I get to read with John Sales.
Guest:And my whole deal was...
Guest:Oh, whether I get it or not, at least I'm getting to read with John Sayles.
Guest:And so that's where my brain was.
Guest:And now I find out John Sayles is not there.
Guest:I'm like, wait a minute.
Guest:Well, she never said that at first.
Guest:She just said, oh, well, come in, you'll read.
Guest:And I'm like, no, no, no.
Guest:I don't need to read with you.
Guest:I'm supposed to read with John Sayles.
Guest:And so I'm...
Guest:A little bit belligerent.
Guest:I couldn't believe I was doing what I was doing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Fighting her.
Guest:Fighting with her.
Guest:But for some reason, she was very stern.
Guest:And I'm a very stern, stubborn guy, too.
Guest:So we're standing in front of a whole staff.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Fighting and yelling at each other.
Guest:I mean, literally, we're having a verbal altercation.
Marc:You're tired, you're cold, you're driven, you're broke.
Guest:Finally, she slams her hand down.
Guest:She goes, Well, you will have to read for me first, no matter what happens.
Guest:And I stop, and I go, Okay.
Guest:Shall we?
Guest:We're walking back down the hallway to read.
Guest:She gave me these pages, cold reading pages.
Guest:I don't even recognize the people.
Guest:It's like one or two lines.
Guest:It's no big deal, right?
Guest:And we're walking back, and as I'm going back,
Guest:There are these photos on the wall of all the ballplayers.
Marc:The real guys.
Guest:The real guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And as I'm walking back and I go, I'm still teed off, you know.
Guest:I go, well, you know what?
Guest:Whether I get anything in this film or not, I really don't care because this is the only guy I'd play.
Guest:And I smack the guy on the wall.
Guest:On the wall, I smack the photo with my knuckles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Boom.
Guest:And she turns around because I scared the hell out of her.
Guest:She turns around and she sees who I smack.
Guest:I had smacked the only ball player that had not been cast.
Yeah.
Guest:And they've been looking all over the world for this schmuck.
Guest:Chick Gandall.
Guest:And she goes, give me those pages.
Guest:I thought I was out of there.
Guest:And she goes, here, take these instead.
Guest:She gave me Chick Gandall's pages to read now.
Guest:She says, follow me.
Guest:And she's like really stern.
Guest:I get in there and I read for her and she goes...
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:We'll call you.
Guest:And they had my tape.
Guest:I'd given her my VHS tape.
Marc:You did put yourself on tape?
Guest:No, it was the film, Henry.
Marc:Oh, of Henry.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Of Henry.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I gave her that tape and asked me if I'd done anything.
Guest:I said, I've done one thing here.
Guest:And then I leave.
Guest:So I get a call later that I got a call back on.
Guest:I go home.
Marc:Back to Chicago.
Marc:Back to Chicago.
Marc:You get a call from Gallagher.
Guest:Yeah, Gallagher.
Guest:She calls me.
Guest:She says, you got a callback, dude.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, oh, sorry about the John Sells thing.
Guest:It was a miscommunication thing.
Guest:Sure, Gallagher, sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So anyway, I go down there and I get to read for him.
Marc:You went back to Indianapolis?
Guest:I went back to Indianapolis.
Guest:I had money this time.
Marc:You got your paycheck from the city?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So I get back and I audition for him.
Guest:And then I get a call that I'm his first choice.
Guest:But he can't cast me.
Guest:Because they were like doing, well, I'll cast this person.
Guest:I'll cast, and now the next casting will be your casting.
Guest:Then they were switching back and forth.
Guest:The producers would get to choose, and then John Sayles would get to choose.
Guest:Producers, John Sayles.
Guest:It just so happened that this was the producer's choice.
Guest:It just happened to be that it's their choice who gets cast in.
Guest:For this role.
Guest:And they didn't know me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They didn't.
Guest:They liked the audition.
Guest:It was fine.
Guest:But they didn't know me and I hadn't done anything.
Guest:But I said I had done something.
Guest:And they figured out, oh, here it is.
Guest:And she gave it to John Sayles.
Marc:Henry.
Guest:Henry.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He took it to his room and watched it and edited it out.
Guest:The moment when I'm talking about killing my mama at the table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He edited that out and it was like 90 seconds maybe.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:At...
Guest:I mean, maybe 90 seconds.
Guest:Just one tiny little scene.
Guest:And so I sent it to them back to L.A.
Guest:And Sarah Pillsbury, Midge Stanford were the producers.
Guest:And they saw that and go, bam, hire him.
Guest:Because they had just done that whole thing where the kids find the dead body on the river and don't tell anyone.
Guest:They just keep going back and looking.
Guest:So they had done that kind of thing.
Guest:creepy thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they were really into it.
Guest:They thought, yes.
Marc:And you got it.
Guest:We got his guy.
Guest:And plus, I had won over the casting director.
Yeah.
Guest:I had won over her.
Guest:She invited me out to dinner.
Guest:We talked about who I was, where I'm from, talked about my sisters, talked about my training.
Guest:So she felt good about going, this guy's a real actor.
Guest:And so even though we had such a horrible beginning, it ended up being a beautiful combination of events that got me excited.
Guest:Eight Men Out, which ended up getting me my agents in New York.
Guest:That's how I really got my break.
Marc:That was your break.
Marc:That was my break.
Marc:Also, a pretty good baptism in learning how show business works.
Guest:Oh, big time, yeah.
Marc:You know, you can, like, engage your frustration, you know, relative to the process.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:You know, and maybe not, you know, start smacking pictures in the hallway.
Guest:Don't do that.
Guest:I would suggest anyone never do...
Guest:Never do what I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I always do things completely right for me at the time, but wrong for you at the time.
Guest:It wouldn't work for you.
Guest:It worked for me.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, but you weren't doing it.
Marc:It wasn't a system.
Marc:You were just reacting.
Guest:I was just being honest.
Guest:I was frustrated.
Guest:I was cold.
Guest:I was hungry.
Guest:And I had slept in my car all night long.
Guest:And I was just like, John's cell's not here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What the... How was he to work with?
Guest:I loved him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Great, great guy.
Marc:And then after that, you do Mississippi Burning, which is like... And I worked with Studs Terkel.
Guest:Studs Terkel.
Guest:I mean, come on.
Guest:Oh, Chicago guy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, no, I had a great time on that show.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I still have friends.
Guest:We've remained friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who were all the other guys in that?
Marc:There's a lot of young actors in there.
Guest:There's tons of guys in there.
Guest:All the hot...
Guest:Actors of the day in Hollywood.
Marc:Charlie Sheen, D.B.
Marc:Sweeney.
Marc:David Stratham.
Guest:He's great.
Marc:Christopher, Michael Lerner.
Marc:I work with that guy.
Marc:He's a character.
Guest:Isn't that great?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Look at all these guys.
Marc:Yeah, Cusack.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Cusack was the lead, right?
Marc:No one was a lead.
Marc:It was a team.
Guest:It was a big team.
Guest:It was a big ensemble.
Marc:And you were one of the guys that wanted the deal.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was one of the smart ones.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's like, why are we playing for this schmuck?
Guest:We're not making any money on this guy.
Marc:Yeah, let's take the deal.
Guest:I got a deal here.
Guest:What do you think?
Guest:Let's do it.
Marc:But Mississippi Burning, I was going to rewatch it.
Marc:I watched it again not too long ago.
Marc:That movie is one of the great movies.
Guest:I think I did that movie very soon after.
Marc:Eight Men Out.
Guest:Eight Men Out, yeah.
Marc:And all of a sudden, like, you go from doing Henry, then working with these young actors, then you're working with fucking Hackman?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:He was tough old guy.
Guest:Coot.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:He's the guy who grabs my balls under the table.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank God I had a cup on it.
Guest:That's all I could say.
Guest:He's strong.
Guest:He was strong.
Guest:I could feel the cup.
Guest:You know that plastic?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:I could feel it.
Marc:Giving?
Guest:I could feel it going.
Guest:I was like, oh, geez, this guy's going to really crush my nuts.
Guest:But were you intimidated going into that?
Guest:Or you didn't think about it.
Guest:Now, I don't get intimidated too often.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I appreciate and respect people, but there's not a lot of people.
Guest:I don't think there's anyone that I really super look up to and are in awe of.
Guest:I...
Guest:I just come in and do my thing and, you know.
Marc:It's an interesting idea that if you have a, you know, not necessarily a disrespect, but an inherent, you know, lack of respect for a lot of people, it humanizes them.
Guest:Yeah, I think everyone's—we're all humans.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I treat everyone the same.
Guest:I treat men and women the same, although I always thought I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But when you're raising children— Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'm going to raise my girls like—I'm going to raise—I'm going to—these kids are going to be the, you know, equals, right?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:It doesn't work that way.
Guest:It doesn't.
Guest:And it was like—and it was, you know, other people had to tell me—
Guest:I'm a born DI, a drill instructor.
Guest:So I should have been in the Marines.
Guest:I should have been a drill instructor.
Guest:I joined right on a high school, couldn't go because I had bad hearing.
Guest:But that's my thing.
Guest:And when I'm dealing with little boys,
Guest:I realized it only after someone else pointed out that you're tougher with boys.
Guest:And I realized, oh, I shouldn't be because they're just little baby babies, you know?
Guest:They were kids playing with my daughter out there in the yard goofing around.
Guest:But I realized that I had to like...
Guest:tone my stuff down I had to like soften my speech you know because my voice is different than a lot of people's it's more gruff a little gruff and so I had to like try to be less gruff when I was dealing with kids
Guest:stop scaring the kids yeah stop caring yeah yeah and it didn't didn't mean to yeah it's just that hey yeah no pissing on my tree you know stuff little boys they just go pee anywhere they want you know stuff like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you could take it down a notch yeah yeah please okay but you know there's a bathroom inside you know but when you work with Hackman are you picking up any tricks yeah
Guest:No.
Guest:Nothing?
Marc:No?
Marc:Just doing the job?
Guest:No, I just do my own thing.
Guest:I don't try to pick up any tricks from anybody.
Marc:He's something to watch.
Marc:I can't imagine what it must have been like to watch him right up close.
Marc:You know?
Guest:He's a good guy.
Guest:And Willem Dafoe.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Both great actors.
Guest:Very different.
Guest:They had a lot of fun on that show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We all had a blast on that show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I tell people all the time, Alan Parker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:one of the best directors that ever lived.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What made him that?
Guest:He could read people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like instantly.
Guest:I mean, I was cast on Mississippi Burning, but I was cast along with...
Guest:This guy and this guy and this guy and this guy and everybody that looked like everybody who is white and look like they could be KKK members.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was cast in that group.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like seven or eight of us.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he knew all of us were going to be in the movie, but he didn't know what we're going to do in the movie yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:honestly yeah he but he had this one idea for this one guy who was sort of the ringleader yeah and that was me that ended up being me yeah uh the guy on the ground the guy that's and he goes hey come here and he gave me some direction yeah the first scene we did with this big massive scene with 150 extras and and like 20 reporters and
Guest:people running around with mics and all that kind of stuff, cameras and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:And they're looking for the bodies in the river and all that stuff and the FBI's there and all.
Guest:It's a massive scene.
Guest:And so he came up and he said, dude, go over there.
Guest:These people, they don't belong here.
Guest:This is your territory.
Guest:You own this place.
Guest:Let them know.
Guest:Go on.
Guest:Get them off that bridge.
Guest:Shove a few of them if you have to.
Guest:You know, that kind of thing.
Guest:And he goes, and that's all he's told me.
Guest:So me being an actor, I have quite a lot of training.
Guest:I was like, oh.
Guest:This could get hairy a little bit.
Guest:I don't want to be surprising people.
Guest:So I went over to all the people who were the reporters, and I got to choose.
Guest:And I went over into this group, and I said, hey, man, this is what's going to happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:Is it okay if I just push you around a little bit, and you guys yell at me, and I'm going to yell at you, get out of here, go back to where you belong, that kind of stuff.
Guest:And they were like, yes.
Yes.
Guest:Fuck yes.
Guest:Let's do it.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yes, man.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And then he gave all the other guys their direction.
Guest:The other eight.
Marc:Who was that?
Marc:Brad Dourif?
Marc:Was Brad Dourif in it?
Guest:No, Brad played the sheriff.
Marc:The deputy.
Guest:Yeah, he played the sheriff or the deputy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But he was there, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But these are his guys, basically, all his motley crew, his team of good-for-nothings, right?
Guest:And so they said action, and I just went at it.
Guest:I did what I do best.
Guest:We're improv-ing, and we're talking, and we're yelling at each other.
Guest:And I'm grabbing him his shoulders.
Guest:And I grab his microphone.
Guest:I throw it into the river.
Guest:Well, we didn't expect that.
Guest:But, you know, the props guys didn't like that.
Guest:But it happened.
Guest:But it worked for the scene.
Guest:We did that scene.
Guest:I think we did that opening sequence like that one time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was it.
Marc:So he gave me the freedom.
Marc:Parker did.
Guest:He gave me the absolute freedom to do that.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:You work with a lot of great guys.
Marc:Oliver Stone.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:That guy must have been a manic guy.
Guest:You know, he was great.
Guest:I thought he was a great director.
Guest:We had fun working together.
Marc:And Tombstone, that's another one.
Marc:That's a great movie.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I love that movie.
Guest:As a matter of fact, JFK, I'm working with Kevin Costner right now.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Well, that's the thing.
Guest:And after all these years, from JFK to Horizon, it's been that long since we've worked with him.
Marc:I can't remember JFK.
Marc:Did you have a lot of scenes with him?
Guest:I had several scenes with him because he played the DA and I played the assistant DA.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, did he, like, he must have, he remembers all that, right?
Marc:And he brought you in.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he remembered.
Marc:Had you been in touch for the years since?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:That's why.
Guest:Now we're practically living together, you know?
Guest:We're, like, doing four movies, dude.
Marc:I know.
Marc:What is the story on that, dude?
Guest:We're doing four movies.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's amazing.
Marc:And where is it, like, what's the vibe now?
Marc:In relation to the response.
Guest:Oh, he's not stopping, baby.
Guest:He doesn't care.
Guest:No.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I just saw the second one.
Guest:And it's better than the first one.
Guest:It adds to the first one.
Guest:The first one is just... Set up.
Guest:Inducing.
Guest:Set up stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, it's a part, chapter one, of a four-chapter movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, it's...
Guest:For critics and people, it would be really hard to.
Guest:we're not used to they're not used to analyzing stuff that's like four movies right sure yeah yeah and the first one is generalizing and he's got these moments yeah you're introducing your cast sure basically yeah and so the second one goes that even further so you're realizing oh there is a connection with all these what's your part in the story
Guest:I play a guy named Reardon, Sergeant Major Reardon.
Guest:I'm in the Union Army.
Guest:I manage—I'm the adjutant to the colonel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I do a lot of paperwork.
Guest:But I also go out on—
Guest:on, uh, excursions and stuff like that.
Guest:I take care of, I basically take care of everybody.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's my job.
Guest:And that's what I do best.
Marc:That's your job in life.
Guest:That's my job in life.
Guest:And it was very intriguing that I'm doing this in the movie too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, Oh wow, this is.
Marc:And what's the arc of your character over the four?
Guest:Well, I'm not going to tell you the arc.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But I'll tell you that.
Marc:At some point, does he get in?
Guest:But I'm in all four, and there is an arc.
Marc:At some point, is he out of the army?
Marc:Or is that all take place during that time?
Guest:I don't think.
Guest:I'm still in the army in four, from what I've read.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Unless it changes drastically.
Marc:How long did you spend on this verse 2?
Guest:Where the second one just got finished, it's so... I was out there working this summer on the second one.
Marc:But the whole job, how long has it taken?
Marc:A long time.
Guest:It's taken a while now.
Guest:Some of the other characters have grown up, and they have to cast new people.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because they've got to come back as the grown-up.
Marc:That's what happens when you work with kids.
Guest:Yeah, they grow so fast that they had to, like...
Guest:adjust and what's costner like to work with as a director he's a wonderful director man yeah oh i think i honestly he's made a lot of money doing this acting stuff yeah but he's a director yeah what makes him good oh he's just like so good with actors yeah because he's one of you and he has his own vision yeah he has his own vision and
Guest:And you're not going to deter him from his vision as a cinematographer or anything.
Guest:Oh, I think we... Oh, no, no, I want this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we got to wait for the sun to get here before we can do that moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because that's going to cast a shadow over here.
Guest:And I need that shadow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, stuff like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:We shot really quickly, to be honest.
Guest:But it was gorgeous.
Guest:I think they put the chapter one on pay-per-view now.
Marc:You know, with these movies, you've got to see it more than once.
Guest:Oh, more than once, definitely.
Guest:And not a lot of places.
Guest:Look, let's be honest.
Guest:The movie's three hours and one minute long.
Guest:It's going to take you 30 minutes at least, unless you live next door to the theater.
Guest:To get there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Take 30 minutes to get home.
Guest:Oh, it's a day.
Guest:It's a full-on evening thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's going to be four or five hours to get to and from, go have some food.
Guest:That's beautiful.
That's what it's all about, though.
Marc:Yeah, sometimes people miss that.
Guest:It's a wonderful evening, and you plan for it, and you go, and you have some food, and you go, and you don't rush.
Guest:You get the full-on story.
Marc:It always kills me lately about how I watch Killers of the Flower Moon.
Marc:Yes, right.
Marc:And I talked to the cinematographer.
Marc:And after I talked to him and he told me what he was thinking and how he did it, I'm like, fuck, I got to go see that again.
Marc:Maybe two times.
Marc:Right?
Marc:How are you going to catch all that?
Guest:No.
Guest:First time through.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that's how most people watch them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Someone works a decade on a goddamn thing.
Guest:And then go.
Guest:It's all right.
Guest:And if it's not fast enough, they're like, oh.
Marc:You really got to take shit in.
Guest:And people, I made statements already in the past.
Guest:People, I think,
Guest:people really don't know how to watch film these days.
Marc:I mean, a real film, real cinema.
Guest:Something that's longer than like 90 minutes or something.
Guest:The phones broke our brains.
Guest:We can't spend, a lot of people can't spend three hours
Guest:Without their phone.
Marc:And also just checking.
Marc:They're used to watching quick things.
Marc:Like I watched, I went and saw Kinds of Kindness.
Marc:It was a few hours.
Marc:But like I still, it didn't break my brain totally.
Marc:I can take it in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:I mean, it's exciting because the second one's going to be, you know, unfold better.
Marc:And then there's four more.
Marc:It's exciting to be employed for four fucking movies.
Guest:For four movies, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But how do you feel about like your kind of like your kind of nerd success?
Marc:With the Guardians of the Galaxy stuff.
Guest:Oh, it's all pop culture, man.
Marc:It's beautiful.
Marc:And you do the Comic Cons and stuff?
Guest:I go and meet the fans at the convention.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Sign autographs.
Marc:Do you dress up?
Guest:No, I don't dress up.
Guest:But I, you know, I just... Yeah, they love it, right?
Guest:I'm just me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I just come as myself.
Guest:And we talk and we sign and they tell me about, oh, my God, I love that moment in the movie.
Guest:And I said, oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:With the characters Yondu?
Guest:Give me my money and get out of here.
Guest:No, I don't do that.
Guest:But we have a real little connection there, and it's kind of fun.
Guest:I do Q&As, too.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I love my Q&As.
Marc:My girlfriend's a nerd, and when I brought up that movie, Yondu's the character?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, she's like, oh, everyone loves Yondu.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Yondu starts out, you don't know where he's... You don't know, I love playing these roles where...
Guest:You're walking that tightrope.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you don't know whether or not— Good or bad type rope?
Guest:Yeah, good or bad type rope.
Guest:But also, you don't know if he's going to hug you or smack you upside the head.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Also.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So that has always been kind of a theme with a lot of my cast.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I don't mind that.
Guest:I like it when my fellow actors come up to me and go,
Guest:I really don't know when you're acting and when you're not.
Guest:And I love turning to them and saying stuff like, too bad.
Guest:And walk off.
Marc:Keep it mysterious.
Marc:Keep that mystique going.
Guest:And they're standing in the middle of the road going like, oh, did I say something wrong?
Marc:He really is scary.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I'll tell you, it was great talking to you, Michael.
Guest:Nah, dude, thank you.
Marc:Yeah, thanks for doing it.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Quite a story.
Marc:Intense guy.
Marc:Had a great time with that.
Marc:I like talking to him.
Marc:Horizon, an American saga, part one, is now available to rent or buy on digital platforms.
Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.
Marc:hey sorry if you can hear the washer spinning in the background but i'm cleaning my clothes full marin people we've got some old stuff for you tomorrow almost 20 years old we're posting more segments from my old radio show morning sedition including some stuff with my mommy let's talk about me for a second because one of my favorite topics now was i always as charming and wonderful as i am now
Guest:Take your time on that.
Guest:I don't want you to rush into an answer.
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, boy, he's getting honest with me.
Guest:But from what I recall, you know, Grandma always said that I was just a happy, wonderful kid full of joy and love.
Guest:What went wrong?
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:You don't take any responsibility.
Guest:No, I understand.
Guest:But look at you now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Thank God.
Marc:That's for full Marin listeners tomorrow to subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast.
Marc:How about a classic guitar riff?
Marc:from back in the day so
so
.
.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey LaFonda.
Guest:Ooh.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:I think one just texted me.
Boomer lives.