Episode 1564 - Moon Zappa
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck a crats?
Marc:What the fuck Canadians?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:How's it going there?
Marc:Everything all right?
Marc:Today, I talked to Moon Zappa.
Marc:She was on episode 434 back in 2013.
Marc:And we actually started dating a little while after that.
Marc:God, I can't believe that.
Marc:I can't believe that that's like over 10 years ago.
Marc:I can't even, like, I don't even know how I was, who I was.
Marc:Like, I don't get it.
Marc:My timelines are fucked up.
Marc:Moon and I...
Marc:Knew each other way back in the day, probably in the 90s.
Marc:We had met and we were pals and we kind of felt like we should probably date.
Marc:There was a little back and forth there that was very kind of exciting and loaded up and crushy.
Marc:And it just never happened.
Marc:And then we come together again in 2013 and
Marc:And it was one of these things where it was like, oh my God, we had just both broken up from people.
Marc:We were both just freshly out of relationships and
Marc:And we thought, like, man, this is it.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:This is our moment.
Marc:And what we didn't really take into consideration fully, I didn't, certainly, because I'm a dumb shit.
Marc:Or, nah, it's not a dumb shit.
Marc:I'm just, I don't, you know, I just don't.
Marc:Well, bottom line is, the relationships we had gotten out of, uh,
Marc:were both very bad for both of us.
Marc:Very traumatizing, damaging, crazy, and really hard situations.
Marc:But we were both free, but like freshly free.
Marc:Like, you know, really like weeks, months, maybe not even months.
Marc:And we just locked in with each other.
Marc:And I know that some of you
Marc:know the term trauma bonding, but and that's sort of like that's an umbrella statement.
Marc:If you are a traumatized person or an emotionally compromised person because of whatever you were brought up with or whatever your liabilities are, whatever you've been through, it's very hard to get around the trauma bonding.
Marc:Trauma bonding is very exciting.
Marc:It's an easy path in in a lot of ways to a type of intimacy that is just based in desperate need to feel better and to do things differently.
Marc:It's not really rooted in all the good things, but it's a thing.
Marc:And I'm not going to diminish our relationship at all, but it was difficult from the get-go because these people we had broken up with were sort of still lingering around in our hearts and our minds and physically.
Marc:And it just became very difficult, very fast.
Marc:It was very hard.
Marc:And there were things that happened in her life and in my life that were, it just became, I just was not prepared for any relationship.
Marc:I'm not sure I am now.
Marc:But I don't think we were in an emotional position, either of us, to really handle it.
Marc:And then her mom got sick, and then I had... My ex was being pretty... A little bit persistent.
Marc:Just, it was all...
Marc:chaos in a way and it didn't last that long uh it you know it lasted about six months and we were just dealing with the heavy burdens of our own lives and then it just was not was not we couldn't deal with the burdens of each other's wives certainly and it was just it was difficult and it kind of kind of burned down in about six months and and i had to uh
Marc:You know, I don't know.
Marc:It just, it stopped.
Marc:It was not a great ending.
Marc:I, you know, we, I just had to, we, I think we were together about six months and I just couldn't do it for many reasons.
Marc:And it was never really resolved or anything like that.
Marc:It was a fairly clean break.
Marc:And this is really the first time that we've talked much since then.
Marc:We've said hi here and there and texted occasionally.
Marc:But the bottom line is she wrote this amazing book.
Marc:about growing up in the Zappa household and the sort of trauma that that created and what it did to sort of her sense of self and her life.
Marc:And there's a lot of great stuff about kind of living with Zappa
Marc:emotional trauma that causes, you know, psychological difficulties, relationship difficulties, life difficulties.
Marc:But there's also this amazing poetic, uh, kind of, uh, illustration of, of life at that time in that house with those people, with, you know, Frank and Gail and Amit and Dweezil and Diva and that whole world of, of
Marc:that Frank had created, but also the world of Hollywood and her own opportunities.
Marc:It's really an amazing document of a very specific music history, but also a very kind of painful and difficult memoir about her own psychological, emotional, uh, and, uh, physical experience and,
Marc:of being in an emotionally chaotic environment.
Marc:So I love the book and I think she's a very beautiful writer, a lot of poetry in her.
Marc:So that's exciting and you'll hear it.
Marc:I would like at this point in time,
Marc:if I could, to come out and identify as a childless cat lady.
Marc:I don't really jump on the cultural meme train or I'm not following intensely what's going on, though I am...
Marc:More than excited about what's going on.
Marc:I mean, I just love that, you know, the Democratic machine is just, you know, just punching Trump in the kidneys of his vanity over and over again.
Marc:Poof, poof, just punching him in the kidneys of his ego.
Marc:Poof.
Marc:It's very exciting.
Marc:Again, I don't know where it's going to go or how it all pans out, but whatever's happening now, it's giving me a little pep in my step.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:But the childless cat lady thing, I identify as a childless cat lady man.
Marc:And this whole fucking framing, this whole idea, and I've talked about it on stage.
Marc:It's like, just look, some people just don't want kids for whatever reason.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:There's plenty of kids and maybe their reasons for not wanting them is actually saving the world as opposed to thinking we're running out of children or the right type of people aren't having children or that everybody should have children because we're no different than dogs or lizards.
Marc:I, it's just, you got to trust the person's individual choice is the big problem with whatever the fuck is happening right now in terms of the, uh, kind of fascistic nature of, of Christian legislation is that it's denying people choice on all levels.
Marc:Just shut the fuck up.
Marc:Let people live the fucking life they want.
Marc:But the kids thing, it's like, look, if somebody says, I don't want to have kids because I'm fucked up and I haven't got my shit together and I don't want to pass that along.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Or if they don't want to have kids because of environmental reasons or they're not prepared for the responsibility or for whatever reason.
Marc:Who gives a fuck?
Marc:Just shut up.
Marc:Go enjoy your kids.
Marc:And the idea that childless people, you know, don't care about America is crazy.
Marc:They might care about America more.
Marc:What do you think?
Marc:Because you don't have a horse in the race.
Marc:That you don't give a fuck about the race?
Marc:I mean, it's just so fucking stupid.
Marc:I just don't know who they're playing to.
Marc:Just let people fucking live the lives they want to live.
Marc:And this idea that you're going to make it more difficult to divorce people, even in domestic violence situations or complete misery.
Marc:It's like, what is that?
Marc:What kind of... Making abortion illegal, making divorce illegal or impossible...
Marc:and calling people who don't have children treasonous or un-American.
Marc:It's like, shut the fuck up.
Marc:Let people live the lives they want.
Marc:Why is the right-wing Christian machine so dead set in government running everyone's fucking lives and their personal choices?
Marc:Holy Christ.
Marc:I mean, you want to have a kid that you don't want to have?
Marc:You want to bring a kid up in an environment that you can't get out of even though it's violent and abusive?
Marc:You want to have a kid because you're forced to?
Marc:You want to have a kid that comes into the world and there's no love for that kid?
Marc:I mean, what kind of kids are they trying to make?
Marc:This idea that the kids can just suck it up?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Kids are tough and they eventually find their way, most of them.
Marc:But you want that trauma at the core of their being to be violently parented or neglectfully parented or abused or unwanted or struggling with parents who were not mentally ready or able or emotionally ready or able to have children.
Marc:You want to just force them into that situation against the will of
Marc:of the parents that maybe didn't want to be parents?
Marc:I mean, what kind of people are you making?
Marc:I got an idea.
Marc:And I've talked about this before.
Marc:I tried to make it a joke years ago.
Marc:You're creating angry people.
Marc:You're creating people that have to struggle from day one.
Marc:You're creating people with emotional voids in their hearts from bad parenting.
Marc:And what is the common factor of those people?
Marc:Well, either...
Marc:they're either going to sort of lose control of their lives and end up in a bad situation, perhaps in prison, which happens to be a big business, or they're going to end up, you know, misguided and lost until somebody can take over their brain and focus that anger and terror and fear and grievance of, of, of emotional neglect and focus it on, I don't know, the,
Marc:bad intentions, misguided political warfare,
Marc:Fascism?
Marc:Tell me about it.
Marc:Am I just making this up?
Marc:If you have trauma or you decide not to have a child because of your particular precarious emotional situation, if you decide that you have not been able to process your trauma to the point where you can be responsible enough to have kids without passing that trauma along generationally, if you don't have the will to
Marc:to kind of stop the cycle of trauma and abuse that has traveled down your lineage for however long it's traveled down your lineage, and you decide not to have kids?
Marc:Good, don't.
Marc:Don't.
Marc:It's not an experiment.
Marc:Trauma is generational.
Marc:Hate is generational.
Marc:Anger is generational.
Marc:I wouldn't say it's genetic, but it's close.
Marc:It's right alongside of that.
Marc:It's right alongside of it.
Marc:How you're wired by the emotional motherboard and father board of what you're brought up with is as defining as genetics.
Marc:And I'm talking out my ass, but it sounds right, doesn't it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is, as I said earlier, Moon and I kind of regroup a little, talk a little about back in the day when we were together and how that sort of ended up and then kind of got into the groove of just talking about her great new book,
Marc:It's a very poetic and honest memoir about her life growing up in the very unique and singular world of the Zappa household.
Marc:But also it deals with a lot of stuff that anybody can experience when you have, you know,
Marc:Parents that aren't quite parents for one reason or another.
Marc:The book is called Earth to Moon.
Marc:It is a memoir, as I said, and it comes out next week, August 20th.
Marc:You can pre-order it now.
Marc:This is me talking to Moon Zappa, the amazing Moon Zappa.
Marc:You got notes?
Guest:I do have notes in case, because I have short-term memory, and I'm just like, what am I here to do again?
Marc:What is your short-term... What are you here to do again?
Marc:Are we... So, were you nervous?
Marc:Was I nervous?
Marc:Coming over here?
Marc:Well... I haven't seen you in a long time.
Guest:I haven't seen you in a long time, so this is the first time we've seen each other since our breakup.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And... The abrupt breakup on my part.
Actually...
Marc:It was pretty clean.
Guest:It was clean.
Guest:And I think that... You were so direct.
Guest:I did very little grieving because of how... Well, we didn't have a chance.
Guest:Well, you sliced it so thoroughly, so cleanly.
Marc:Well, we didn't... The possibility of post... Like, I've never really... I was relatively... I thought it was the right thing to do.
Marc:But I've never been that clean about it.
Marc:But...
Marc:In thinking about—like, I read—I didn't know if I was going to get to read the book, but I knew I had to read some of it.
Marc:So I started at, I think, at Frank's cancer diagnosis and read that.
Marc:And then I'm like, oh, I've got to read it.
Marc:Because there was part of me that was sort of like, she should have opened with this.
Yeah.
Marc:With the death.
Marc:I could have used your notes early on, Mark.
Marc:It's a bit late now.
Marc:No, there's no notes.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's written great.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:You do a thing that I love.
Marc:I'm a big fan of the poetry of things.
Marc:So I'm good with what's in the bedroom, all the stuff, because I think that has a great effect.
Yeah.
Guest:I tried to treat it like I was writing sci-fi.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:Well, to put the reader in a world and just kind of also write it sort of like a police report.
Guest:So I tried to be as neutral as possible.
Guest:I mean, I still think there's some nudging.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's thorough, but it's still your point of view.
Marc:And what I found interesting about it, but wait, I want to, before we do this, let's clear the air, which is not even that dirty, I don't think.
Thank you.
Marc:So the cleanness of the breakup, all I remember is you calling me a couple of days after I said, I can't do it anymore.
Marc:And you said, well, your bike is here in your sneakers.
Marc:And I said, throw them away.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And some of the issues that we had were things like, can you get rid of that mattress that you've slept on with every single person who's ever come before me?
Guest:And you were like, what if I asked you to do that?
Guest:I would get a new mattress.
Guest:And this was completely just not an option.
Guest:I still have the mattress.
Marc:It's in the guest room, but that's a good mattress.
Guest:Well, here's the thing.
Guest:That's you loving nostalgia and the memories.
Marc:No, that's not true.
Marc:I don't even think of it that way.
Marc:I don't even attach it to that.
Marc:Right now, it was the last place that Lynn was ill.
Marc:It was in that guest room.
Marc:But that's the only thing attached to it.
Marc:I don't look at mattresses and think, nah, I did a lot of work on that one.
Marc:It doesn't even register that way.
Marc:It wasn't nostalgia.
Guest:It certainly wasn't make partner feel comfortable.
Guest:I'll tell you that.
Marc:Well, here's I. OK, I'll take it.
Marc:But let's let's just be honest about the type of chaos we were in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I've read the book and I realize that we both gravitate towards chaos a little bit.
Marc:But we were coming out of.
Marc:Both of us, like barely out of the worst relationships of our lives.
Guest:The worst ever.
Guest:Although I've had a worse one since, but yes.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Can you believe it?
Marc:How could it be worse than that?
Marc:But also, like, you know, I only heard, you know, the interesting thing about reading about your family, Frank and Gail,
Marc:Is that like whatever that yoga guy was, I mean, you at that time had really described him as this messianic character.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know him.
Marc:Who the fuck is that guy?
Marc:You had given him these magic powers.
Marc:I'm like, that guy?
Guest:I know.
Guest:That was super helpful.
Guest:The other thing you, the golden nuggets I walked away with from our time together was the love of an electric toothbrush.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Sonicare.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:The first Sonicares.
Marc:They must have been like back in the day.
Guest:uh that was pleasurable we uh the commitment to fitness yes that was really fun the partner running i really enjoyed that yeah i haven't found anyone else who likes to do that but that's okay um there was something else that was oh shame you had a book on your on your on your night stand yeah that guy that no no what's that guy's name who wrote that book on shame yeah
Guest:And I literally did not understand shame at all.
Guest:Oof.
Guest:And then when I read that book— Really?
Marc:You're soaking in it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's so close to me, I can't see it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It becomes your entire engine.
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:And it's only because of that stuff that, you know, since— But I do—I want to make some sort of amends.
Marc:But—
Marc:The thing was is that my relationship that I was coming out of was crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To the point where, you know, you had to, you know, convince me to get a restraining order and that kind of stuff.
Marc:And I had never experienced a type of self-erasure or codependency in my life.
Marc:in me until that and so we're and you're like completely vigilant always apparently after reading the book but but you know there was some missteps obviously but i just think from where i was i couldn't i couldn't and i don't seem like the kind of guy that is like that but i really couldn't hold myself together you know in in light of you know the tornado of you and whatever i was trying to do
Guest:Yeah, I mean, to be fair to this other person, I wasn't – I felt so bad for you for what you were sharing about your experience that that was a suggestion.
Guest:I'm glad you didn't take it because – Which one?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Well, I eventually did.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I missed that chapter.
Marc:No, you missed it.
Marc:And it wasn't like – I don't really – it was really not – I do a bit about it, which I think you'd appreciate it in that –
Marc:The issue when you have – and I have fought this part of me for so long that when – because I don't really see myself as a people pleaser.
Marc:But I do want to maintain a certain amount of sanity and things.
Marc:So I will – but for some reason, if someone's persistent, I'll eventually give in.
Marc:And basically the thrust of the bid is really that, like, I didn't take a restraining order out because I thought she would hurt me.
Marc:I took it out because I was afraid I'd get back together with her, that I needed to get law enforcement involved because of my lack of boundaries.
Marc:But it eventually worked itself out.
Marc:But I don't want to sit here and talk over you.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:It's an interesting thing to... I mean, so my book basically is the map for how I arrive at poor boundaries myself and how I arrive at allowing unacceptable things in my life.
Guest:And I knew that...
Guest:Before I decided to write the book, I felt like I can either be a cautionary tale about succumbing to...
Guest:the the victimization i felt you know where do you go when your mother's your first bully right that's not a great start yeah um or i could for myself right say well i'm gonna fight through it and i'm gonna let love win and i'm gonna i'm going to be a role model for myself of victory over over my history how that how's that working
Guest:I have to climb that mountain every single day because the damage is real, you know?
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I'm tearing up thinking about it.
Marc:It's just – it's so – I know.
Marc:You do – when I'm reading it, you know, there's part of me that's sort of like, she must be so tired.
Guest:I am.
Guest:That's why I say that sentence a lot.
Guest:I am so tired.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I do want to apologize for one thing that I think –
Marc:But you're not giving me your side of this.
Marc:Was your experience in retrospect in investigation, which you have clearly done through most of your life and left names of relationships?
Marc:I'm not in there, which is good, I guess.
Marc:But do you...
Marc:But how do you frame that in your mind, the experience we had?
Marc:Because it was fairly short and it was intense.
Marc:And we were both like brutally ripped open the whole time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I feel for me, it didn't feel short because I'd known you for so many years.
Guest:And so I thought it was going to be like one of those like.
Guest:And after 20 years, they get together and it works out.
Guest:But my mother had just been diagnosed with cancer.
Guest:And at that time, I didn't realize what was going to come with her illness.
Guest:And I am really private about the stuff that...
Guest:um, hits me on a deep, deep, deep level.
Guest:So the things I included in the book are, are, I have perspective on because it's, and some of the stuff is just hilarious.
Guest:Uh, because whatever you just, you see the, the setup for how I end up in those situations and I hope that those stories deliver.
Guest:And I don't, I, I seem like, I think like,
Guest:I think the reader will be like, get out of that room.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So.
Marc:Well, the thing I wanted to apologize for was that, you know, there was it was the first time your mother went to the hospital and and my misassumption.
Marc:I remember because, you know, I didn't go to the hospital and my niece was in town and I remember it.
Marc:And we had a big, you know, sort of you were upset that I wouldn't come to the hospital.
Marc:But in my mind, like I didn't feel like I had a place because your family was going to be there.
Marc:And now I really read about the family and I'm like, oh, my God, I really left her hanging.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I do want to apologize for that.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Because I don't – because I prioritize whatever.
Marc:My niece was there or whatever.
Marc:I was like, she's got her whole family and I don't know them.
Marc:That was my thinking.
Marc:I'm just going to be like – I'm going to draw attention because I'm not part of this inner circle really.
Marc:And I'm sorry for that.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in terms of the rest of it, for whatever reason, it was not because I had no love for you.
Marc:I just couldn't handle what you were going through.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I statements are so much more helpful.
Guest:I can't handle what you're going through, so I can't show up for you.
Guest:It would have been a much nicer thing to say, even though it's still terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What, you mean at that moment?
Guest:At any moment.
Guest:To just speak from an I place of just saying, this is my limitation or this is my fear.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This is my... Because I can work with that.
Guest:A person can work with something like that.
Marc:But I'm not unlike you.
Marc:And I think that both of us are...
Marc:working against our, you know, true self-interests to, you know, maintain sanity for others or to do whatever.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:For me to find what I need is, it is impossible.
Guest:It's, it's, it's spelunking in the dark.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Guest:Being dropped.
Guest:I can't find myself because I'm so,
Guest:I mean, I was basically raised to be a lady butler.
Guest:I should have been somebody's personal assistant.
Marc:Well, what's amazing about the book, and I've been thinking about it a lot because I do love it.
Marc:I do love it.
Marc:But I do.
Marc:It does make me, you know, the police report analogy is sort of correct to me because there is a certain amount of diplomatically and honestly and with the correct amount of respect and emotion settling scores here.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:I mean, I wrote a book, you know, Attempting Normal, where I'd really take my dad to task with a certain amount of love.
Marc:But in retrospect, you know, he got very upset.
Marc:And, you know, he thought it would affect him and his life legally somehow.
Marc:And, like, there was a phone call from him.
Marc:And he was like...
Marc:You know, the whole family's mad about that.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, it's my experience as well.
Marc:He goes, well, I'm mad.
Marc:I'm like, well, what do you want, money?
Marc:And he goes, yeah.
Marc:And he goes, and I'm like, all right, well, how much do you want?
Marc:He goes, $100,000.
Marc:I said, I'll give you five.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:But it didn't matter.
Marc:Ultimately, you know, I'm fine with him.
Marc:But I guess my point is, like, I didn't know after all of it and looking back on the writing, was it done in good faith?
Marc:Was I not being spiteful?
Marc:Did I not do that as a fuck you, you know?
Guest:I mean, I definitely had a fuck you draft that I wrote.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:And then I worked really hard to take the fire out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I also had to consciously not put stories in that I really thought there'd be a revolt if people read it.
Guest:I feel like they would have just been like.
Marc:By sort of maintaining, by being honest about your side of it.
Guest:Yeah, like if I went further and really told some of the really painful stuff, I mean, I pressed on the bruise as much as I could.
Guest:And, yeah, I mean, I left out some stuff that was, I think, would just not be wise.
Marc:Well, here's what I was going to say is that
Marc:The stuff you're talking about in terms of what you struggle with as a person with, you know, difficult parents or inattentive or emotionally abusive or negligent, you know, is a common thing.
Marc:You know, I deal with it.
Marc:But what's interesting about your life is that you have these issues, but no one grew up like you in the world.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:It's like – because there's this element of it where it's almost like a – not like a novel, but because of the public personness of you and your family, you know, you can – you have an idea of these people.
Marc:It's not just like the mom that no one knows who did this to me that I got to get through.
Marc:They – all of a sudden you have to weigh, you know, the –
Marc:Your perception of these people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I really did feel like we were raised like we were royals or or the Kennedys or.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I had to there was a public me, a a get along with the family me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then a private me that was just in turmoil.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I remember the one time I... I have some very funny moments, mostly involving Moby, who I can't... I just can't.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't even know if you noticed it, but...
Marc:The one time I went to the house was for that Christmas party.
Marc:And in terms of the royalty thing, you know, I like I definitely had the feeling because of the nature of a lot of the guests.
Marc:I'm like, this this is a a a a dying royal family situation.
Guest:That was at my family's home.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it was the only time I met Gail.
Guest:Bagpipers.
Guest:And all the trees.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, like, you know, a very odd bunch of guests.
Marc:And it felt like, you know, is this entering the Grey Gardens phase?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Of the Zappa dynasty.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:It kind of was.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:But when you took me downstairs, it was me and Moby and you, and you're showing me the studios, and that fucker got on every goddamn instrument, and I was like, stop it!
Marc:Any room we walked into, we walked into your dad's old studio, and he immediately was like, blank, blank, blank, on the piano.
Marc:I'm like, you, what are you doing?
Guest:The funny thing I remember about that tour was that I don't remember if it was you or Moby who said it.
Guest:I said, oh, that's new.
Guest:I haven't seen that before.
Guest:And then you or Moby said, how can you tell?
Guest:Because there was just so much hoarding.
Marc:I just remember the one room with literally two toilets at different levels around the corner five feet away from each other.
Guest:Yeah, Gail had intended for there to be a bathroom where a parent and child could...
Guest:Go to the bathroom at the same time?
Guest:But it was built long after the children needed that size toilet.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So.
Marc:And I just remember you showed me Gail's room and it was like this kind of like a monastery.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was like, so it was different than the whole house.
Marc:And it definitely felt like, yeah, no, you can't go in there.
Yeah.
Guest:I find it weird when people let you go into their bedroom unless you also share that bedroom.
Guest:I find going into people's bedrooms really weird.
Marc:I notice that with people in general if I show someone the house.
Marc:I don't really register it, but I register.
Marc:They're like, no, I'm good.
Marc:I don't need to go in there.
Marc:I guess it is sort of a secret space.
Guest:Well, it's where intimacy takes place.
Guest:Like sleeping and being with a partner.
Marc:But the other thing with the book that I think is interesting is that you're looking at all this childhood stuff as a person that has spent her life
Marc:evaluating their self and why they are their self.
Marc:So you bring this information that you now know to all of these moments that, you know, because they're pieces of a puzzle of you.
Guest:Yeah, I felt like I was always solving a cold case on my own, or it was an all white puzzle with none of the edge pieces.
Marc:Yeah, the stifling of your, that whole idea of, like, if your parents don't kind of seal the lid on your sense of self by giving you the space to build one,
Marc:It's fucked.
Marc:It's fucked.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you ever read that Firestone book?
Marc:Had I read that when I knew you?
Marc:Which one?
Marc:The Fantasy Bond.
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Definitely going to get that.
Guest:I am loving, by the way, Prince Harry's book.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Spare.
Guest:Excellent.
Guest:Excellent.
Marc:Fascinating.
Marc:A similar family situation?
Guest:Honestly, yes.
Guest:Honestly, yes.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't that wild?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really interesting.
Marc:So let's pick up where we left off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:After Gail passed, the stuff at the end of the book, because it's not police reporting.
Marc:It's very emotional and sort of like whether or not you feel like you've gotten to the point –
Marc:In yourself to where you're really exposing, you know, the heart of things that the dynamic of the family around both deaths is is it's all there.
Marc:You know, in like the scene at the cemetery with with with Gail, Gail's funeral is devastating.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's like, you know, those moments with your siblings.
Marc:It's just like it's fucking crazy.
Marc:And it's beyond anything I can understand in terms of family.
Guest:I worry that the reader will be like this.
Guest:This can't be like they won't be able if you if you won't.
Marc:You read the rest of the book.
Marc:It makes perfect sense.
Marc:There's no, like, you're not going to be like, what is happening?
Marc:How is this family like this?
Guest:Yeah, I think the other thing about my family and I think it's rare when somebody's final word sets you on a course of just total self-inquiry and it's horror.
Guest:And to have to overcome, to be bigger than death is,
Guest:which is already a topic that people can't deal with, mortality anyway.
Guest:I think that that's one thing I think is so weird about my life.
Guest:That's really bizarre to me.
Guest:And I hope that in writing this book, if anybody ever has to go through something like that or have to have a reckoning with somebody's final word, it's hard.
Guest:It's really hard.
Guest:What was hers?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Well, basically that she doesn't wish me well forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's that's terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The weird thing about you and in terms of my experience or knowing you on and off for a long time is and it's the same with me because I don't see it either, is that I see you.
Marc:You're not.
Marc:You don't.
Marc:You know, you you yourself is stronger than you think because, you know, you insist on it.
Marc:And people who are shattered, who don't insist on being reckoned with, they float.
Marc:I mean, you may float, but, you know, you're making things, you're making tea, you're doing stuff.
Marc:So all that is an effort of self that makes it fairly...
Guest:present and i i it's all it's odd to me that all the talk of not having so i feel that way too but i do know that myself is in there it's just it's just a very young yeah and and i'm super stunted in so many areas right the thing about me is when i when i find an area where i'm super stunted i then go who's the best at this thing because i want to learn from that yes motherfucker
Marc:Yeah, but, like, who the fuck are they?
Marc:Well, you go searching for those people.
Marc:I know, but ultimately, you know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Marc:Eventually, you're going to be like, oh, it's just that guy?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:I mean, I read the one chapter where you realize that, you know, your guru at that time was just a racket.
Marc:You know, but like my, and I don't know, I guess it's fortunate, I never had that.
Marc:I never, you know, when I get down to that part of myself, you know, I'm sort of like, all right, so...
Marc:The one thing I learned is like if when you're raging and it's coming from an emotional place of, you know, a seven year old, you know, that coming out of a 50 year old man is is abusive and awful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That intensity.
Marc:So it's like so stop that.
Marc:That was what I learned from Firestone.
Marc:Which is just a book and I'm not even sure I understood the book.
Marc:And it's that if you have emotionally abusive or negligent parents, you know, you and this is all through your book, is that if you feel awkward and fucked up, you can only blame yourself.
Guest:Because your parents are your parents.
Guest:But also, if you blame yourself, then something might change.
Guest:If I can be different than I am, then something externally will change.
Guest:And that's kind of like... That's an idea.
Guest:It's an idea that never delivers.
Marc:No, because...
Marc:What you do is you put a shitty parent in your head because your parents are what they are.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And so that parent, that doesn't change until you change that, whatever that is.
Guest:And that is the hardest job in the world.
Guest:And that's the mountain I climb every day because I've internalized what was the worst.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Of what.
Marc:You have an inner shitty parent.
Guest:I have an inner shitty parent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, but like, yeah.
Marc:Do you find that you're making—because I find that, like, I know, usually, when, you know, that one's telling me what to do, I'm like, we're not going to do that.
Guest:I'm building that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:that muscle i work with finally i found an amazing amazing amazing therapist yeah and she's she teaches really practical techniques like number one just notice if you're dysregulated oh i'm dysregulated all day long and then when you get dysregulated and you notice it then then you could try the five four three two one calm down which is five things i can see four things i can hear three things i can feel two things i can smell one thing i can taste yeah
Guest:And you calm yourself through your senses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because as you figure out which sense you need to pay more attention to, it just naturally... Calms you down?
Guest:You simmer down.
Guest:You just simmer down.
Guest:Oh, I think about it.
Guest:It's a new muscle.
Guest:It works?
Guest:It's hard.
Guest:But yeah, I'm retraining my brain.
Marc:I'm just being in Vancouver by myself and away from my routines, I've been thinking a lot.
Marc:And I'm still sort of like most of what I think about is food and nicotine because I'm on and off nicotine now I'm on these pouches.
Marc:But it's okay.
Marc:It's okay if what I need to do immediately when I land anywhere is go to Whole Foods.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:If that's what's going to put me...
Marc:In a level place.
Marc:Go look at food.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:But like the times where nothing's going on.
Marc:It's squirrely, dude.
Guest:Yeah, I hear you.
Guest:I mean, that was the other thing, too.
Guest:You were the I think the only person I've ever dated who had a temper equal to my own.
Marc:And that's because of what I went through was scary to me.
Marc:And it could have gotten bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was really grateful because I was like, oh, this is what people feel like opposite me.
Guest:And this is shitty.
Guest:And I thought we could solve it together and just be like, hey –
Guest:Could you say that another way?
Guest:Or, hey, let's talk about it when we can both be calm.
Guest:Or, I really had high hopes for the potential of working through the same or similar.
Marc:There was so much going on.
Marc:Oh, yeah, no.
Marc:I mean, Matilda was like, what, eight or nine?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it was like, and then there was that weird, because when I went into that with you, I'm like, all right, let's do this right.
Marc:I shouldn't really meet the kid for a few months, like within three days.
Guest:Like, hey!
Yeah.
Marc:Here's my kid.
Marc:And then I fucking meet her dad for whatever reason in the front yard.
Marc:And he pulls me aside.
Marc:He's like, I'm good with this.
Marc:I'm like, what?
Marc:It's been a month and a half.
Marc:What is happening?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wish I had known more about insecure attachment.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:What is that?
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:Well, if you had somebody that was outright abusive, you have a better chance in being in relationships because it would be like, oh, there's that thing I refuse to have in my life.
Guest:But when there's a little bit of something good and a little bit of something terrible, that's the hardest thing to navigate.
Marc:Sure, because you think the terrible will go away, right?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:They're like, well, they can do the good, so they must be able to shrink the bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But do you find that in yourself as well?
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Guest:But it's it's it's hard to see your blind spots.
Guest:You need to be in it.
Marc:You get so angry over just think like if you were cooking and I'd say something like I know, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no idea how I just didn't know how to self soothe.
Guest:I just I was completely blind to that.
Marc:So when you write this book.
Marc:Because I haven't really talked to you.
Marc:And the other thing I remember about you is there was a never-ending text flow of adages.
Marc:That's my version of Whole Foods.
Marc:All day long, just sort of like quotes from everybody.
Guest:Because they were reminders for me of like what was and what is possible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, wait, this is what health looks like.
Guest:Other people think these kinds of things.
Guest:I'm not thinking these kinds of things.
Guest:I'd love to think these kinds of things.
Guest:Then I wouldn't have to send these kinds of things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess I mean, I relate to that, but I don't.
Marc:I obsess about that kind of stuff.
Marc:But as life goes on, you realize, don't you, that no one's doing it quite right.
Guest:Well, everyone's doing it to their own temperament and interest and whatever.
Guest:It's rare.
Guest:Compatibility is super rare.
Marc:Not just compatibility, but like how... Or acceptance of other, super rare.
Marc:Acceptance of self is not so rare, but when you don't have it, it's a fucking nightmare.
Marc:So...
Marc:Because I haven't known where you've been.
Marc:I know you spent time in Taos, and I don't know what your life has been, but when do you get the strength or the wherewithal to sort of take this on?
Marc:Because you've written other books, and we've talked about your childhood, but you really must have felt a moment where you're like, either I'm going to purge this, or I'm going to process it, or I'm going to... What is it?
Marc:What was the moment where you felt it was okay?
Marc:Because you're...
Marc:For whatever you say, look, my relationship with my parents is like it's – I just taught – I say they're people I grew up with that had problems.
Marc:I never felt any real maternal or – so I don't – like I don't feel the attachment that most people have.
Marc:Like I can't relate to feeling like I owe them anything, which is a gift.
Yeah.
Marc:But at some point you had to reckon, you know, with this, you know, how kind of programmed you were to... Well, I just hit a limit where I just thought, when's it my turn?
Guest:When do I get to have the reciprocity?
Guest:When do I get to be seen and loved and accepted like I see and love and accept all of you in spite of your many, many, many, many underlined boldface, many horrible qualities, you know?
Guest:I just thought that that's...
Guest:that everyone was going to do the all for one, one for all kind of a thing.
Marc:Well, I get that.
Marc:But what's interesting is that like over the course of the whole book, you know, even if you, you know, Frank is, or you're a fan of Frank's and most people don't really know Gail, but, but they, even with your need to respect what they were and who they were, they don't come off good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I really tried hard to have them come off well.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And to say these are their qualities and I accept them.
Marc:But it doesn't feel vindictive because you're just documenting your experience.
Marc:But they were in those beats where people, a couple of beats in the book where people think you're being abused one way or the other and you don't see it.
Marc:I didn't see it.
Marc:But it was like it was total insanity that they were not they were awful, awful parents.
Marc:Well, it's a pyramid.
Guest:And my dad was at the top of the pyramid.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:And all arrows pointed toward the top of the pyramid.
Marc:The non communicative, you know, you know, what's the word I want?
Marc:Insulated.
Guest:No, I should probably be in jail with my rage about feeling so gypped in the family department.
Guest:But that's – whatever.
Guest:They –
Guest:Whatever.
Marc:I'm not blaming them.
Marc:They were what they were.
Marc:But also the weird thing about having lack of boundaries and a certain amount of freedom on certain levels is you do find your own parameters.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And at some point, I think in the book, too, I mean, you at some point realize, like, well, these are the things I got that are OK.
Marc:And these are the things I got that are, you know, damaging to me.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't – I don't think I – I didn't wrap it up with a bow at the end.
Marc:I definitely feel like – I didn't finish the book going like, she's okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I mean the thing is I – these things have a lasting effect.
Guest:And again, I wrote the book hoping that if I can give words to these kinds of feelings and situations that somebody who has it –
Guest:as bad or worse than I do, they can navigate a little bit better and get to loving themselves faster than I did.
Guest:And, you know, it's... I think it all... It really is about mirror neurons and seeing other examples that you can strive for.
Guest:I just...
Guest:I would always be baffled by... Wait, they had a family dinner?
Guest:They sat at a table?
Guest:I still barely have managed to... When you go to other people's houses?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've still barely managed to have sit-down meals with my own child, who's my favorite person in the world.
Guest:My dad was my favorite, and now my kid is.
Marc:And it's just... That's just... I think it's great that it also works as a sort of document of a time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And there are certain things that...
Marc:people who came up during that time kind of mythologize about music and about the scene.
Marc:But it becomes pretty clear that the Zappa house was its own scene outside of whatever was going on in a way.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:And then the other thing that's interesting to me about my life is because I feel like we were raised to be thinking like Kennedys or Royals, that I always felt like I couldn't,
Guest:uh, let the public down and end up in rehab or, um, do something to, to be, uh, that was, that was unbecoming that would affect my family or because so many people would get LLCs in my name, start businesses with my name.
Guest:And so I felt, instead of going, Hey, that's my name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like a normal person.
Guest:Like that baby store.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The, the, the,
Guest:I just kept thinking, well, they're trying to get their lives together.
Guest:I better make sure that I don't mar their chance at a life.
Guest:That's lunacy.
Guest:But the other piece of it, the other side of it is that I didn't end up in rehab.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, none of you are druggies.
Guest:But my point is it wasn't just I mean, I I didn't even allow myself to go down that road to see maybe I'm a big maybe I'm a big stoner or something.
Guest:I'm not acting out.
Guest:I'm not finding out about it or whatever.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't.
Guest:I just there were so many things I didn't.
Guest:let myself go through that normal... You're the opposite.
Marc:You're the companion piece to the drug addict.
Guest:I feel like my life has been in reaction to, and then finally I'm now like, well, actually, but who am I if I'm not doing the thing or doing the opposite of the thing?
Guest:What would I do if there was none of that?
Guest:What are you finding?
Guest:I'm experimenting right now.
Marc:The other part of the book that was, and I should have talked about it, about
Marc:death and mortality and grief and how people react to it.
Marc:Because that was another component of my reaction to when Gail was sick.
Marc:They avoid it.
Marc:My mother avoids it.
Marc:I remember she doesn't want me to go to funerals.
Marc:And now she's not in good shape.
Marc:But...
Marc:But you took some sort of bizarro anatomy class where you were, like, I couldn't even quite wrap my brain around the context of this autopsy class.
Guest:Well, I really wanted to, I mean, I really had to rebuild what is a person from the ground up.
Guest:After what?
Guest:After my mother basically said, you know, in summation of knowing you,
Marc:Yeah, but everything leading up to that was she was threatened, fucked up.
Guest:But I didn't know that.
Guest:I accepted her.
Guest:And then she steals forgiveness from me because she doesn't tell me everything she's done.
Guest:And that's one of the biggest cruelties also, to ask for forgiveness but not tell you everything that she's done.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Do they ever, any parent...
Guest:But to be not given, I mean, the chance, that was stolen from me.
Guest:My forgiveness was stolen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think that's, you know.
Guest:And my ability to grieve her, therefore, was stolen.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I have to grieve a different thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That whatever she gave you, which was not even half.
Guest:It's not it's not that it's it's that it's that the the the basic idea of we're all in this together was was this that was like the stated.
Guest:motto of the family, but it was not put into action.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And like in the book throughout, you realize that she, you know, was paranoid, threatened, vindictive.
Marc:So whatever the all in it together was, is she had built a situation where you guys were fortressed.
Marc:You know, out of her emotional liabilities to believe that you were a fighting unit of some kind, but not a family unit.
Marc:Right.
Marc:A family business.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Later, right.
Marc:More became that.
Guest:Well, we were always signing documents that were related to the family business.
Guest:But the fact that she, you know, who makes your kid sign legal documents from the time you're you can hold a pen.
Guest:That's that's not not great.
Marc:The whole thing is very interesting and very upsetting.
Marc:But like for me in terms of family reading about how she just, you know, iced out all of Frank's family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they didn't seem like bad people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you have no reason.
Marc:There's no reason.
Marc:So that stuff is crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what was it after she died like –
Marc:The thing about the – like I'm talking about my dad has a dimension now and I tell people that the filter is gone and before they get too far gone, the statute of limitations on what they should and shouldn't tell their kids is gone.
Marc:So if you're curious and you want some answers, it's time to go fishing.
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:But you're never going to get all of it, right?
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:Do you think that you didn't end up following a guru because you were raised Jewish, where you were fundamentally questioning and there was the chance to be...
Marc:No, I just... Thoughtfully thinking and... I don't think so, no, because it turns out that, you know, I don't even know that my mother talks about anything.
Marc:My mother is, like, totally emotionally stunted and not... You know, my brother, because my brother's dealing with her down in Florida.
Marc:She doesn't have dementia.
Marc:But she just... Neither one of them were that curious, really.
Marc:I mean, she was an artist.
Marc:But I think my thing is, it's like, for whatever reason...
Marc:I never thought that God or spirituality were answers for me.
Marc:My brother, on the other hand, was a real searcher and became more Jewish, was running around hugging people because of Leo Buscaglia when he was a kid.
Marc:He needed this thing.
Marc:And even to this day, I'm like, I don't find that I have that...
Marc:you know, that's going to make me whole or better.
Marc:And I don't really believe too many people about anything.
Marc:What about being of service?
Marc:That I can do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, isn't that a form of spirituality?
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:I mean, I'm just saying in terms of like the guru or having some sort of wisdom, like I'll take it.
Marc:And if I read things, I'm like, I can use that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't crave it.
Guest:I remember when you saw a photo of me and Laura Dern and Swami Satchitananda and you were just like, oh my God, this is one of the saddest photos I've ever seen.
Guest:And it was so...
Guest:I mean, you really did have some real clarity on some things that I was still, as they say, what stays in vagueness?
Marc:What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness?
Guest:What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness.
Guest:And I have so many situations that I was, whatever, magical thinking.
Guest:I was just doing my best to be, and I thought that was just optimism, magical thinking.
Guest:I didn't realize that it was...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A liability and a detriment.
Guest:Like, I wish I had no hope.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Almost there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Thanks, political climate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wrote something recently that said, hope is a placeholder.
Marc:And to me, it's not that I don't have hope, but I...
Marc:What's it a placeholder for?
Marc:What should be there?
Marc:Existential terror.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's a band-aid.
Guest:It's a sidestep.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And as is most things.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:To feel the actual thing in its raw form.
Guest:I think it's terrible.
Guest:It's terrible.
Guest:It feels bad.
Marc:It feels really bad.
Guest:It feels really bad.
Guest:But if you feel it, then you can let some of it go.
Guest:That's really the only way.
Marc:Yeah, because I can't attribute anything to—like, I do feel a little better.
Marc:I know I've made mistakes, and I've done—you know, I try to—you know, I think sobriety helped.
Marc:But I think it was that Ernest Becker book, really, that denial of death.
Marc:I think that's, if anything, is what, like, really—the idea that—
Marc:People's need to believe is almost genetic.
Marc:And that need for community and to somehow feel part of something bigger than yourself in order to kind of keep the existential terror at bay is almost as normal as eating.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But it is an act of the mind.
Marc:And I thought that to me just revealed something about the nature of belief and looking outside yourself that I think kind of broke my brain forever in a good way.
Guest:I want to read it.
Guest:But I think also it is through the body that we –
Marc:Yeah, you did a lot of body work.
Marc:I don't do that and I carry a lot of shit and I do wonder about that.
Guest:But exercise, dance, any movement, swimming, just to say, I'm going to feel terror right now.
Guest:I'm going to feel my fear of my mortality.
Guest:I'm going to make shapes with my body and say, what does it feel like?
Guest:What does it look like?
Guest:And that's one way to just start processing it.
Marc:But I also believe that I am in a, you know, a fairly profound amount of a denial.
Marc:So don't look to me like, you know, like that I just because I don't have that stuff, I am coming up against my my age and everything else.
Marc:And rigorous honesty is another super important.
Marc:Yeah, because I think that can get you in your body.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, at least you can own yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And going back to the anatomy thing, I really wanted to see what we're all made of.
Guest:What is the universal thing that we all are?
Guest:And I wanted to physically hold our organs.
Marc:Well, what kind of class was that?
Marc:You sign up for it?
Marc:I mean, that was the interesting thing.
Marc:Is there a place I can go and just kind of hold organs?
Marc:I'll tell you after we get up there.
Guest:I don't know if I want to do it, but I mean, how did you seek that out?
Guest:Where was that?
Guest:Well, because I was teaching yoga.
Guest:And so as part of yoga training, you can take anatomy classes and then further your anatomy lessons by taking a course where you're with a body that's been donated to science.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:They seemed a little worn out, those bodies.
Guest:Yeah, you do.
Guest:One was fresh and one was used.
Guest:That's how they do it.
Guest:So you can see the body in different stages of decay.
Marc:And how did that whole thing work for you?
Guest:Well, between that and going to Burning Man and seeing the amplification of love, that one-two punch and how novelty really puts you in the present.
Guest:And if you have any trauma, you know, you're just...
Guest:replaying that brain groove so to do things that are just so heightened amplified in the opposite direction that those two doing those two things back to back I think really uh
Guest:help me see just reset my system the same as cold plunges and certain kinds of breathing techniques like James Nestor's Breath that book that is a game changer yeah I do I hold my breath
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just noticing throughout the day.
Guest:Same with dysregulation.
Guest:I breathe basically into my clavicles.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And I have to remember to breathe all the way down into the rest of myself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Like, I feel like.
Guest:Training yourself to feel, to feel is difficult.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:To stay in your body if you've dissociated to survive.
Marc:I feel like at some point I just kind of put a lid on it.
Yeah.
Marc:And I think at some point I was sort of like, I can accept who I am with whatever limitations I have and with whatever liabilities I have.
Marc:In talking about not like I was told that that a parent's responsibility, if they're good at some point is to kind of, you know, nurture you and then let you make mistakes so you can figure out the parameters of your sense of self, you know, as opposed to, you know, make you an appendage.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or just panic all the time.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And coming back to this, I think there's some part that if you don't have a lid on your sense of self, I mean, it's like you're going to be looking to the universe for parenting for the rest of your life.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, apparently the ingredients are roots and wings.
Guest:You know, the rooting of feeling safe.
Guest:Right.
Guest:in your home, feeling safe, then there's a place to go.
Guest:And then knowing that you can always return to that safety, but that safety is the thing that gives you the liftoff.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Because then you get to fly on your own and you come back and back.
Guest:And then when you're, I think there's a developmental stage called
Guest:object constancy when you're I think like two or something you're supposed to be able to your parents stay put and then you go and crawl away and travel and then they're out of view and then you crawl back and then they stay where they are so that you know that that's safe that you can go and come back and and that and you develop that process and if and I received objects constantly instead of object constancy yeah and
Guest:And they would walk away.
Guest:And so it's a constant state of disorientation.
Guest:Yeah, and panic.
Guest:Panic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's not a great start.
Marc:Yeah, if you don't have the roots and the wings, you're just falling.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Endlessly falling.
Guest:The movie Gravity, I think I had to stay in the theater 20 extra minutes just being like, that's how I feel, except I never landed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm still falling now.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what – in doing this, because I found when I wrote anything that, you know, there is a sense of discovery that happens when you write.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, where you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:You know, like, because it just comes out in that different way.
Marc:I mean, how do you –
Marc:And I appreciate the fact that you used the word cock and not dick.
Marc:It's sexier.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:But, like, you know, it's like I made that change years ago.
Marc:It's a cock.
Marc:It's not a dick.
Marc:But, I mean...
Marc:Today, having written this book, what's going on with you and the siblings?
Marc:Nothing?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I just went and saw Sebastian Bach and Santa Ana with Amit the other night.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah, because I look for the places where there's the Venn diagram overlap and how I can stay connected to them and the ways that they're available.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And because connection is important to me.
Guest:And it's, you know, I have to do a little check in with myself.
Guest:Like, how do I feel today about the stuff that's unacceptable?
Guest:And I'm like, well, we see it differently.
Marc:Has all the legal stuff settled down?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:All the legal stuff is done.
Marc:And do you have a relationship with the other two?
Guest:Dweezil won't speak to me.
Marc:You don't know why?
Guest:No.
Guest:And, um, I mean, I do know why.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:I suspect, rather.
Guest:I can't, he's unwilling to sit down and have an actual conversation.
Guest:I reach out probably every, at least once a year and say, ready yet?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We doing this?
Guest:Because I just, it's, to me... It gets crazy getting old.
Guest:It just doesn't make sense.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, that's his choice.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if that makes him feel better...
Guest:then, of course, I'm all for it.
Guest:With my sister, yeah, I wish I was closer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:It's okay.
Marc:Because when we were together for that time, everybody was still pretty tight.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that all came unhinged.
Marc:But in writing, do you find that...
Marc:How did it change your perception of your parents?
Guest:Well, a couple of things happened.
Guest:One was I did end up having more empathy for Gail because when I would look at all the tour dates, when I did a little bit of research, I was like, good Lord, she was there with one of us.
Guest:She was there with two of us.
Guest:Then she was there with four of us, and he was doing this.
Marc:For like a year at a time sometimes?
Guest:Yeah, at least nine months.
Guest:And then all the financial stress and then literally having a business in the house.
Guest:So every surface was... With barking pumpkin.
Guest:Barking pumpkin everywhere.
Guest:And so I think she was just on a runaway train in a lot of cases.
Marc:But when you look at your own sort of like...
Marc:There are certain things that I imagine you see that you got from her that aren't necessarily bad, but like in reading how you perceive them now, you know, with her sort of kind of random spirituality, witchcraft, this and that.
Marc:Her convenient spirituality.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, it's hard to – do you ever – because of that, I mean, do you question your own sort of craving for it all?
Guest:Of course I do.
Guest:In some ways, it's a connection to –
Guest:Happy memories.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is so sad that that's the happy memory.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So, you know, flipping through some book about whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Druids or something.
Guest:I'm like, oh, yeah, that's.
Guest:I mean, she took us to Stonehenge.
Guest:That was amazing.
Marc:So.
Marc:You were able to empathize with her as a person that was constantly overwhelmed and in crisis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I saw her as broken growing up.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And then I just never thought it would get turned on me.
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:I just didn't think that she would turn that on me.
Guest:And then with my dad, I think I...
Guest:I just – I really saw him as a little autistic or something, something undiagnosed because he definitely did not know how to really show up for other sufficiently.
Marc:Emotionally for anybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so –
Guest:But he was still the funniest, smartest, most interesting person.
Guest:And he was so himself that there's something weird and amazing about being opposite somebody who's like, this is me.
Guest:Take it or leave it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because then when you hit an edge, then you can be like, oh, how am I with this edge?
Guest:It's a very weird thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also, I noticed, too, that in a book that is so...
Marc:You know, personal about self-assessment that and also the assessment in terms of emotional assessment, psychological assessment of family, you don't use any diagnosis.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like it almost seems on purpose.
Guest:Because it's not my job and I'm not a therapist.
Marc:But even for yourself.
Marc:Because people throw around labels all the time.
Marc:Narcissistic, borderline.
Guest:Yeah, I try to not do that because at the end of the day, it's how your brain does stuff.
Guest:A label doesn't change that or help that, I don't think.
Marc:No, it just makes people put you in a box that they don't even understand.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't really see the value of it, and it's not my job to do that.
Marc:But I mean, do you look at Frank like, you know, outside of the emotional impact of being a compulsive philandering person as having this like almost an addiction?
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:That's yeah.
Guest:I've definitely viewed it as those are the three things he likes.
Guest:Smoking.
Guest:Getting blowjobs and having people clap for him.
Guest:He really loves those things.
Marc:And caffeine, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but in writing music, obviously.
Guest:So four things.
Guest:But to the detriment of all else.
Guest:And no acknowledgement of the sacrifices made by all the rest of us so that he could do those four things as much as he wanted.
Guest:In other words, if somebody had said, now it's your turn or what are you working on or what are you thinking about?
Guest:Or, hey, let me make sure you know about how money works or anything.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't know any of that either.
Marc:How to rent an apartment.
Marc:But that's so interesting too that you live like – it's a sheltered life in a very weird way.
Marc:Completely.
Marc:Because what sheltered usually means is protective.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Completely.
Marc:But it was only protective out of Gail's paranoia and anger.
Marc:But everything else, you know, kind of moral compasses, you know, learning things properly and all the stuff that you would associate with somebody who's been ridden by sheltering parents to be disciplined.
Marc:You had almost complete freedom.
Marc:And then you end up hobbled.
Marc:Feral.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Feral, but frightened, right?
Marc:Feral and hollow, yeah.
Marc:You're around naked people all the time.
Marc:Your dad's out fucking everybody.
Marc:There's this weird kind of thing in the culture at that time, but you end up kind of paralyzed.
Marc:around sexuality and stuff.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:I mean, I definitely got some not great messages about women and my own explorations.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I know that it's everybody's journey.
Guest:Everyone is going to have to explore all those things for themselves.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think that when the world is holding your parent and the parent's choices up,
Guest:as gospel because the label genius.
Guest:But also just because they're parents.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:But when there's also the outer world.
Guest:Oh, the outer world.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Okay, yeah.
Guest:Confirming that pedestal role, then it's doubly difficult to explore.
Marc:Well, I felt like the book was like an exercise in my own empathy.
Marc:I felt bad for you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:The whole arc of the valley girl phenomenon is just brutal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's fucking brutal.
Marc:It is.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, because I don't know that, you know, the way it transpired.
Marc:And then that, you know, that event where you're thrown on stage in Sweden or wherever.
Marc:Germany.
Marc:And then your mom just says it was because now we can write off the trip.
Marc:It's fucking horrendous.
Marc:It was a business trip, yeah.
Marc:But, and also just the sort of all the trying, you know, because I got, you know, I share that with you in that, like, you know, I just, you just keep trying and it, it,
Marc:And it worked out for me, but late.
Marc:But also, there's all this embarrassment involved in trying.
Marc:And also putting yourself in situations that you're not ready for because you want the opportunity.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's really devastating.
Marc:And, you know, I related to that in a way that my biggest fear in life was, you know, being embarrassed.
Right.
Marc:Because my mom was embarrassing.
Marc:She would embarrass.
Marc:And then I choose this thing.
Marc:I choose the most embarrassing profession that you can choose.
Marc:And someone just pointed out to me recently the reason you do comedy is to re-engage with the family dynamic.
Guest:But also to heal it because if you can live through it, if you can live through exposure.
Marc:But that is a guaranteed traumatic path.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The idea is like I'm going to put myself in a position and if I get through it.
Marc:Exposure therapy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's crazy because it's just sort of like, you know, I guess it sort of works, but I don't think it helps in processing.
Marc:I think it gets you, you know, tough.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't really know that it helps to process whatever it is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it doesn't allow you to feel soft and safe.
Marc:I don't feel.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's my biggest fear is now I'm just sort of like, yeah, love is overrated.
Marc:Happiness is fleeting.
Marc:You know, I'm okay.
Marc:I can kind of, I've got money saved.
Marc:I can eat wherever I want.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, that's good that you have a backup plan.
Guest:To sit and eat?
Guest:To sit and eat.
Guest:That sounds like a good backup plan, but I would say you're allowed to also have joy.
Guest:I just saw this little talk Brene Brown gave about...
Guest:I love her so much about how our biggest fear is feeling joy because if you've had trauma, then you're staving, you think you're staving off the other shoe dropping by not letting yourself fully feel the joy.
Guest:But in fact, it turns out when you feel the joy, that's a reserve in your gas tank that says this is possible.
Guest:But if you don't really allow it, then you're not building that...
Marc:But the mechanism to allow.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:You have to identify where that is.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Yeah, it sounds like a great idea.
Marc:But like, all right, so is there an instruction book?
Guest:Well, you could probably get her on the phone.
Guest:And then can she give us just a two-person talk?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if I could get her on the phone.
Marc:I did an interview her years ago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the joy thing is, too, it's the vulnerability.
Marc:If you're a vigilant person around, you know, the fear of emotional rejection or pain, the vulnerability of joy, it's like I don't want to share it.
Marc:Like if I feel it, even for a moment, I'm like, I'm glad there was no one around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's a problem.
Marc:That joy is embarrassing, that vulnerability.
Marc:Because I think about this all the time.
Marc:Why am I not taking more chances creatively in exposing my vulnerability in a way?
Marc:Because, you know, bullies broke me.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:Or emotional detachment broke me somehow.
Guest:But it broke you.
Guest:And that could be a past tense sentence.
Guest:I mean, this is what I'm fighting, too.
Guest:I could stay down, fall down seven times, stand up eight.
Guest:And I just, I always think about that Monty Python bit.
Guest:It's just a flesh wound.
Guest:I mean, that's me every day.
Guest:Because you're so sensitive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the least little thing, when I make an effort towards leaving my house, for example, and something bad happens, I try so hard to have that not reinforce, it's unsafe to leave my house.
Marc:Or destroy your whole day.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:So I went to see Sebastian Bach with Ahmed.
Guest:I didn't want to go in the first place.
Guest:Of all people, Sebastian Bach.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:It was a great show.
Guest:He's an amazing showman.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It was fun to sing along with the songs I know.
Guest:But we drove two and a half hours back to where all of our cars were parked, and I lost my car keys and my house keys somewhere along the line.
Guest:And I literally, I wanted to just like...
Guest:I guess go after myself go after that like I just wanted to I had all this energy in my body and I just wanted to lash out and I just thought what are the actions I can take and I was like I can't call these places until tomorrow when the restaurant opens and when the venue opens and I was just like nope it's just there's actually just boring steps that well that's incredible growth it is incredible growth
Guest:I mean, like, because I'm the same way.
Guest:Like, you know, you have a sort of order of things.
Guest:That could have derailed me.
Guest:And I just, I'm, and I guess other people just have this basic like, oh, but I will, I just, if I wanted to, I could set a timer and just be like, okay, have a tantrum, pity party, table for one.
Guest:And now it's time to do the things we can do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My brother is a guy that, you know, is always like his wallet, everything is, you know, he never, he's always losing everything.
Marc:So his, like he, he was in Spain, you know, with his partner and they'd just gotten there for a vacation.
Marc:And on day like one, someone stole his phone.
Oh.
Marc:And just him telling me that, I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Was it on the cloud?
Marc:What just happened?
Marc:How do you even fucking deal with it?
Marc:Did you contact the consulate?
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Like, I couldn't even handle hearing it.
Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he was like, yeah, it was okay.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:Well, good for you having lost everything in your life all the time that you could just have that acceptance.
Marc:Because I don't like admitting to myself that I'm any kind of control freak.
Marc:But I keep my life pretty small.
Marc:And it's because I'm constantly thinking.
Marc:I'm always thinking, like literally thinking about, and this is another way I self-soothe, I guess.
Marc:Like I know how many pens are in my travel bag.
Marc:And if there's not three and all the little things.
Guest:Oh, don't think I don't do a spoon, fork, and knife check and just be like, they all there?
Guest:We good?
Guest:They're still there?
Guest:They're there?
Guest:Good.
Guest:But it's not.
Guest:I don't know why my anxiety rests on my flatware, but it does.
Guest:And I just, I'm like, okay, moon, let's count the spoons again.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But you don't see, it's not OCD.
Guest:Oh, and by the way, many are missing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Who knows where they went?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just.
Guest:Flatware.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, it could be flatware today and something else.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm sure I have some OCD and I'm sure it's from wanting to control what I can control for sure.
Marc:Well, that's all that vigilance stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hypervigilance is exhausting.
Marc:But like I don't.
Marc:Like, do you see, like, because I know, like, I don't rage anymore.
Guest:Yeah, I don't.
Marc:Because I understand it, where it's coming from emotionally.
Marc:And that was self-learning and growth.
Marc:There are things I don't do anymore because of their impact on other people or on myself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you do the gratitude list business?
Marc:I try.
Marc:I try.
Marc:Do you ever ask that question?
Marc:Like, Jerry Stahl always asks me.
Marc:He's like, you know, when I'm spinning or something.
Yeah.
Marc:He says, you know, because he got it from Selby recovery stuff.
Marc:You know, he's like, what are you getting out of that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I never understood that question for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, what am I getting?
Marc:This is my operating system.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:First of all, I think...
Guest:I didn't choose my eye color, my height, my gorgeous little A-cups.
Guest:I didn't choose my physiological responses to things.
Guest:But once you kind of identify what's in your goodie bag, and maybe it's shittier than someone else's, but you still have to own that bag and do as much as you can with it.
Marc:And that's... And also the brain, including that?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:The through line of acne in this book is just horrendous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, really, I can't even tell you how damaging it is to have something that is just something nobody wants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, out of the gate.
Marc:There's so many moments in the book where it's just like, oh, poor moon.
Guest:Even that thing.
Guest:If there's someone who could just deal with my back acne I can't reach on my back, I'd be most grateful.
Yeah.
Marc:But even that thing in the record store.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Because I do remember those things.
Marc:They're scarring.
Marc:Because they're embarrassing.
Marc:And they provoke shame.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, yeah, and they provoke comparison, which is so poisonous.
Marc:Oh, and then the whole cats business.
Marc:The show.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's all very beautifully written.
Marc:I enjoyed the book.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:There's like three chapters I haven't read because I started where I started and I went back to the beginning.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And again, I really saw that we all suffered in our home.
Guest:And so I was so looking forward to all of us being like, we made it.
Guest:We did it.
Guest:Now we can live the life that's meant for us together, you know, the sibling thing.
Guest:And so that was it really is like a loss pile up.
Guest:And and I'm just trying to, as you said, recalibrate.
Guest:So, OK, so those are just people I knew growing up.
Guest:That's so sad to me, but OK.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, my brother and I, I understand him, but I do look at other families and stuff, and they're not as close as you think, a lot of them.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:People get older, they get lives, and who the hell knows what they're going through.
Guest:I literally cannot watch award shows when people thank their spouses or their family or God or anything that they feel supported by.
Marc:I just appreciate when they thank their publicist.
LAUGHTER
Marc:I'm like, finally, an honest broker.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:No, but I do think some people either know how to self-soothe or they really do have support.
Guest:And I find it really fascinating.
Guest:And I think a lot of them come from at least one person really was on their side.
Guest:Like the whole time.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I used to say the gift of childhood boredom so that you could daydream.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you had one good parent, you're probably OK.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Ish.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how does it feel now that there's an arc to.
Marc:And maybe I don't want this to sound rude.
Marc:There's an arc to the relevance of Zappa.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, in terms of the world, like now it's a fairly insulated group of people that, you know, are Zappa nerds.
Marc:Is that a relief?
Guest:Oh, I mean, Universal is tasked with...
Guest:generating new material for the current fans and the fans to come.
Guest:I mean, they've invested a lot of money in making sure that there is content.
Guest:And there was a vault of a million things that never saw the last day.
Guest:But, I mean, there are many ways that Frank can still be
Guest:enjoyed and received in new ways.
Guest:I've always wanted to do a family memoir or to do some kind of a family documentary or some kind of a biopic.
Guest:I've got a thousand ideas of ways to keep him seen.
Guest:My book, I hope, brings some interest.
Guest:I really tried to show a side they've never seen.
Marc:So there's part of you that still sort of operates from that place where we've got to keep Zappa alive.
Guest:Well, less so now because what I really want to do is keep my own art alive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think that there is – I mean, Dweezil's out there playing the music.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I see little kids shredding –
Marc:Zappa?
Guest:Yeah, on a guitar.
Marc:It's amazing.
Guest:Or the drums or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And does Dweezil, does he have some, is the legal thing working in his favor now?
Marc:Yeah, I think he's... He can play and make the money off of his skill.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I don't really know what the circumstances are.
Guest:But it was really fun to see Sebastian box two kids, one playing the drums and one playing searing guitar solos.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was unbelievable.
Marc:And outside of the writing, what's your primary forms of self-expression these days?
Guest:Well, I have a tea company.
Marc:What's that called?
Guest:It's called Moon Unit Tea.
Guest:And I just finally, after a million years, launched a website.
Guest:I know no one goes to them anymore, but that's where you can purchase my tea.
Guest:I love making art that makes me laugh.
Guest:I love taking photos of the valley.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it's just such an atrocious place.
Guest:It's so awful that it turns beautiful again.
Marc:Do you still take pictures of couches that have been thrown out?
Guest:I love doing that, yes.
Guest:I just took a photo and my kid just painted that photo.
Guest:I'm going to send you a picture of the couch.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And how are they doing?
Guest:They're doing amazing.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:What are they up to?
Guest:Just art, art, art, art.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Totally self... First of all, I think you know, has my dad's birthday.
Guest:And so it's just I'm like, you're back, dad, you're back making nonstop things like makes me look like a slacker, which I love.
Marc:Well, that's definitely one of the benefits of that upbringing is that there was some sort of, you know, premium put on creativity.
Guest:Not mine, but as an idea.
Guest:The thing about being around people that are really just self-serving is if you are a doormat, then you are exposed to the skills you should try to develop in yourself and then come into balance.
Guest:Because I don't think somebody who's so self-serving can come into balance.
Guest:They're not going to...
Guest:And make their work harder and get the same thing they always get working harder.
Guest:I can see how illogical that would be to somebody who's like, I just grab what I want.
Guest:Why would I have to think about you also?
Marc:I never know how people do that.
Marc:I don't have kids because of many reasons, all of them choices.
Marc:But the idea that people have kids they don't have relationships with is just baffling to me.
Marc:But it's not unusual.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, it depends on what you value.
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:And it depends on if you value the people that you supposedly care about, that you want them to succeed and surpass you.
Right.
Marc:Yeah, well, your mother was threatened by you, so there was no way she was going to be able to give you that.
Guest:Yeah, I think parents who really care about their kids want their kids to go farther.
Marc:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But that's, it's not a minority, but there's plenty that don't for whatever reason.
Marc:They may say they do, but yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I guess I would just say to people that feel marginalized or hopeless or beaten down like the other guy or the other thing won that –
Guest:That can just be a story that you give a different ending to.
Guest:And it requires a lot of effort.
Guest:But I don't see another path because I refuse to be beaten down by things that are unacceptable.
Yeah.
Marc:Outside of just life.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:Age.
Marc:Just let life do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And the thing is, I also like the idea that we are not our age.
Guest:We are the energy we have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's important to me, too, because for whatever reason, I might have gotten a temper, but it's also fuel.
Guest:And that's something Frank would always say.
Guest:Anger is fuel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He would say happiness is not a goal.
Guest:I'm on board.
Guest:But I would say happiness is a byproduct.
Guest:Maybe he didn't finish the sentence.
Guest:If you let it happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you do the things you love, it will turn into happiness.
Marc:But there's also that thing.
Marc:It's like, you know, I will be reckoned with.
Marc:I will be seen.
Marc:No one's going to fuck with my output.
Marc:Look what I did.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:Yeah, and just really do it for yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, at one point he hired an orchestra just so he could hear his music played by an orchestra.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was just for him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Somebody else liked it too?
Guest:Great.
Guest:I mean, that's amazing to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, thank you for writing the book.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:I really enjoyed it.
Marc:And I'm happy to see you.
Marc:Nice to spend time with me.
Guest:Yeah, it's really fun to see you too, Mark.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Moon Zappa.
Marc:Heavy.
Marc:Heavy.
Marc:But great.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:You can pre-order Earth to Moon right now wherever you get books.
Marc:It comes out next Tuesday, August 20th.
Marc:Hang out for a second, will ya?
Marc:People, we've got a bonus episode tomorrow for Full Marin listeners that many people have requested for years.
Marc:In 2011, we did a live show in New York City that we called The Blue Show, featuring some of my favorite filthy comics.
Marc:Bobby Kelly, Kurt Metzger, Anthony Jeselnik, Joe DeRosa, Amy Schumer, and Dave Attell.
Guest:You have like all these cool fans, you gotta like answer all their emails and like they have questions and shit.
Guest:That's really fucking, that's a lot of work for you.
Guest:That really cuts into your self-hate time.
Guest:It really must like...
Guest:You just have to set a timer, like, you know, two more emails, one more tweet, and then back to hating myself.
Guest:I mean, honestly, you know, the office is closed.
Guest:The buffet of sadness begins.
Marc:That episode hasn't been available for years, but we're putting it up on the full Marin feed tomorrow.
Marc:To subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:And a reminder, before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast.
Marc:And here's some guitar from back in the day.
Guest:guitar solo
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey, LaFonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.