Episode 1563 - Beth Stelling
Guest:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck canadians what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i'm back up here back in canada
Guest:I got here last night.
Guest:I woke up here this morning.
Guest:There's a seagull on the top of the building directly across from me.
Guest:There is a flagpole with a Canadian flag, and there is not much going on on the streets.
Guest:That's the report here from my position at the Olympics in Vancouver.
Guest:Not a lot.
Marc:There doesn't seem to be any sporting events at all going on in my direct vicinity.
Marc:I know a lot of you guys are watching the Olympics, and I don't know what's wrong with me.
Marc:Obviously, I don't have anything against the Olympics.
Marc:There have been times where I've watched the Olympics, some of them, and I enjoy them, but I have not watched any of it.
Marc:I'm not even sure I know how to get it on my machine.
Marc:I guess that's maybe the age I'm at, and that can't be true.
Marc:Of course, I know how to get it.
Marc:I know I can stream it.
Marc:I see where it's available.
Marc:But I just have not watched any of it.
Marc:And I don't know what that says about me.
Marc:It's not that.
Marc:Well, maybe I don't care.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, I saw that the opening ceremony, I see the press on the Olympics and I see some pictures from it and I hear some news stories about it.
Marc:But that is not the loop I'm in.
Marc:Sometimes I wonder, am I in any loop at all?
Marc:Am I just drifting away here?
Marc:Am I untethered?
Marc:It's not that I'm not paying attention.
Marc:I feel like I'm fully engaged.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I think my heart's going too slow.
Marc:Does anyone know anything about that?
Marc:I know I'm in good shape, but heart rate seems a little low.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to...
Marc:Beth Stelling.
Marc:She's a comic and she has a Netflix special.
Marc:It was on a lot of the best of lists last year.
Marc:She also wrote for the HBO show Crashing.
Marc:And I don't know, she's kind of been around and she knows people I know and I never really took her in.
Marc:I don't know why that happened.
Marc:Then I met her
Marc:Why?
Marc:How come I don't what?
Marc:How did I miss?
Marc:But anyway, I go watch her stuff.
Marc:She's very funny, lovely person.
Marc:And it just was one of those things where I just don't don't know everybody.
Marc:That's very clear.
Marc:Look, you guys, I'm not going to wrestle with myself here for you.
Marc:There's that seagull again.
Guest:It's a very interesting thing because I'm high up in this building and they're very high.
Guest:I guess there's water close by.
Guest:I'll never forget that day.
Guest:Man, that was a moment.
Guest:Never forget that day in Boston when me and my buddy Lance took mushrooms and set out into the beautiful...
Guest:Boston, summer day, walked all the way down through the commons, through Quincy Mackett, down into the aquarium.
Guest:And it was sort of the arc of the trip.
Guest:You know, there was a couple of things that kind of culminated.
Guest:And one of them was, you know, after having a lovely but curious trip,
Guest:who is in a Tory vacation.
Guest:We just saw a giant seagull with a, you know, like a half eaten fried chicken wing or drumstick in its mouth.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:Maybe it was that moment that I lost respect for the seagull.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I guess it's not on the seagull.
Guest:But it wasn't appealing.
Guest:I don't look at them as beautiful birds.
Marc:Maybe I should reassess.
Marc:See, there's a lot of things I got to think about.
Marc:We got seagulls.
Marc:We got the elections.
Marc:We got my...
Marc:non-interest in the olympics we've got my uh my low heart rate which is supposed to be good but i don't know how how low uh yeah a lot of panic i got to get out of my head you ever seen these videos where people are just flying and then they pull a parachute is that a reasonable hobby for a 60 year old man
Marc:You know, that's another downside of watching too many reels.
Marc:Yeah, maybe I should be doing that.
Marc:That looks fun.
Marc:Fishing, cooking large things in fryers, flying on little mats and then pulling chutes, jumping off things into water, bungees.
Marc:Maybe that's why I'm not watching the Olympics.
Marc:I have a random selection of bizarre sports right in my hand.
Marc:Folks, I'm going to be on tour a lot.
Marc:All right?
Marc:I'm wary to give you dates.
Marc:I'm going to get the new dates for everything by next week.
Marc:But go to wtfpod.com slash tour, and you can get all the dates if you want to see me.
Marc:I'll have a list of cities for you.
Marc:We've had to reconfigure all this stuff.
Marc:so I can do this movie in Los Angeles, which I think is going to be worth it.
Guest:I know if you're a fan of mine, you wanted to see me, or you're disappointed that we're moving the date, I think you'll enjoy this.
Guest:I think it's something I need to do.
Guest:Between this show that I'm working on now and this movie, I'll be about done.
Guest:And then we'll do the tour, and that'll be it.
Guest:And then I'll just disappear into the, not the ether, but into another life.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Is that maudlin?
Marc:Am I dark?
Marc:This is probably no genius bit of thinking here.
Guest:But I believe that whatever they think about our attention spans, you know, because I'm seeing a lot of comedy specials that are used to be do an hour.
Marc:And now, you know, you do 40 minutes, 36 minutes, 41 minutes.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I'm starting to realize that, again, with this compulsion to look at one's phone or to jump around to all different things, the reason that they think that people don't have the attention spans anymore is that they ruined it.
Guest:It's a direct relationship.
Guest:that we've become so adapted to these technology, to these devices and methods and access that it's literally destroyed the way our brains work.
Guest:And now with the amount of emotional content that you can get at all times, it's devious.
Marc:I've become hyper-aware of staying engaged with people and the things around me.
Marc:Because I'm starting to feel like as soon as I lock into the phone or into a movie or anything else, I'm all in.
Marc:It's a very weird thing.
Marc:I mean, I was on an airplane yesterday.
Marc:And...
Marc:I finished.
Marc:That's how much I'm flying now is I can finish movies I started on the flight before.
Guest:It's a nice thing to be able to do things with a certain amount of of comfort and pattern.
Guest:You know, I I've talked about routine a lot, but I was able to watch the rest of Monkey Man, which I watched.
Marc:And I like that movie.
Guest:I don't know what other people thought or whether it got good reviews, but I like that guy, Dove Patel.
Guest:Is that his name?
Guest:Good.
Guest:I thought it was great, and I've become more and more deeply a Jordan Peele fan.
Guest:I think I need to talk to him again because I keep getting clips of the old Key and Peele show, and he's a great director, and he's taken this whole different turn, but holy fuck, they were so goddamn funny.
Marc:Anyway, about the kind of full engagement of brain,
Guest:Like I'm on an airplane.
Guest:I decided to rewatch Gravity with Sandra Bullock and George Clooney.
Guest:And by the time I got off the plane, I really felt that I'd landed from space.
Guest:And I don't know if that's great.
Guest:Like I had all the emotions she had, you know, the grief mixed with relief, with, you know, overcoming challenges.
Guest:And that didn't happen.
Guest:I did almost nothing on that flight.
Guest:I just sat there like an idiot.
Guest:And the guy next to me, I don't know what he had going on, but he had a set of headphones.
Guest:He had an iPad going.
Guest:He had his phone going.
Marc:And there was a map of the United States on one that seemed to be active with states marked off.
Marc:I don't really know what he was up to, but he looked like a...
Guest:He looked like a guy that, I don't know, he was working on something, but it wasn't menacing.
Guest:It just looked like he had moved whatever his nerd hobbies were from home onto the plane.
Marc:There was a lot going on next to me.
Marc:Nice enough guy.
Marc:And then I get back here, I think, and as a means to sort of regroup, I don't know, I guess I'm having some sort of
Guest:Realization about myself.
Guest:These seem to be happening.
Guest:Not that it matters.
Guest:At this age.
Marc:But I get back to where I'm staying.
Marc:And I clean out the fridge.
Guest:Because some things were sitting there.
Guest:And then for some reason I sit down and I watch the tail end of Gravity because I didn't finish it and I didn't want to wait for the plane.
Marc:I was here and I was a little sad that I had to leave my cats and kid and life and come back and float.
Marc:So I paid $3.79 to watch the last 15 minutes and she makes it.
Marc:But then out of all things, I'm flipping around.
Marc:I watch Manchester by the Sea.
Marc:So between Gravity, Manchester by the Sea, in one day, and whenever I'm flipping through on my phone, there's a lot to put in the head.
Marc:But I had this sort of thought...
Guest:about grief and about the things in our lives that change us forever and what it means to process them and how it affects the way we engage the rest of our life and what's the optimum thing.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I'm starting to feel like I haven't processed some stuff.
Guest:And I'm starting to feel that outside of these conversations I have with you or conversations I have on a stage or conversations I have with guests that come into my studio or pretending to be somebody else in acting or watching my phone jerk me around and make me have feelings that I might not be processing anything
Guest:these feelings in the human world but maybe i am i don't know maybe i think too much but there's some things i'm not letting in there's some things that that i'm running out of time on but but there's a moment in manchester by the sea where he keeps telling the kid you know that he's going to go back to boston and the arc of it is that
Marc:He can't handle being there.
Marc:Where he just says, as vulnerable as that character, God, he says, I can't beat it.
Guest:That whatever was churning inside of him, which obviously was a lot, and whatever was defining him and shutting him down almost entirely, I would say entirely, was not going to change because he did not have it in him to overcome it.
Guest:And it's a very...
Guest:powerful thing to think about these things that change our lives tragedies or anything and this idea is that well you know you talk to somebody you take care of that you process this you got move through your trauma whatever but most of the time giving the window of life that we have it you're probably not going to beat it
Guest:And you have to work around it or live with it or put it in a place that is manageable or avoid it entirely, which becomes your life.
Guest:And I think that has a lot to say about the cultural landscape.
Guest:If you're shattered or angry or were denied something as a child by life, by parents, or by whatever, the act of either denying it or moving that emotion into other things
Guest:dictates a lot of the fucking darkness in the world.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Good morning.
Marc:I don't know if this is too heavy, but this is what happens when I just talked to you a couple of days ago and I'm thinking out loud.
Guest:But hey, there's that seagull.
Guest:You know, seagull, you fly across the horizon into the misty morning sun.
Guest:Nobody asks you where you are going.
Guest:Nobody knows where you're from.
Guest:And you fly in the sky, never asking why.
Marc:Little bad company for you out of nowhere.
Marc:Welcome.
Marc:So look, Beth Stelling is a charming, very funny and lovely person.
Marc:We had a good time talking to each other for the first time.
Marc:This was really one of those talks where I'm talking to a comic.
Marc:who I didn't really know that well or at all.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:Her recent Netflix special is called If You Didn't Want Me Then.
Marc:She also co-hosts the podcast Sweethearts along with Mo Welch.
Marc:And this is me having a first conversation with Beth Stelling.
Marc:I almost went into the... What is it?
Marc:The bookstore and the records.
Guest:I just... I just got... Not bamboozled.
Guest:I knew it was happening.
Guest:I sold some records there and... Good ones?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:And I should have gotten more money...
Guest:I'm doing this thing where I was like doing a bit of a purge.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So Sarah Silverman had given me some of hers when she was moving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I, and I slowly was listening to him over time.
Guest:That's been a couple of years now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She did give me a magnetic fields.
Guest:Like it was a smaller.
Marc:Oh, 10 inch.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And three, three record.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the truth is, I was like, you know what?
Guest:I'll listen to it one more time.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't really want it here.
Guest:And it wasn't my vibe.
Marc:I've got like 3,000 records in there.
Marc:And now I feel like I'm on the other side of it.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yeah, where I'm like, ugh, what'd I do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's a lot to get into.
Guest:But I took them in thinking, as I was walking by, I thought, yeah, whatever.
Guest:If I'm not listening to them, I'll just make money.
Guest:And I didn't do the thing where I just do a quick Google.
Marc:Look over on Discogs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:Her body language changed when I set everything down.
Guest:She starts looking through it.
Guest:She calls the other guy over.
Guest:We're very perceptive.
Guest:Usually, yeah.
Guest:Typically.
Guest:On things that don't matter.
Guest:And I can see that she's asking.
Guest:And then she's like, okay.
Guest:And she compliments me on my glasses.
Guest:And then she's like, I can give you 50.
Guest:And it was for that and a couple other things too.
Guest:Maybe three or four.
Guest:Good records.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, sure.
Guest:I should have obviously retorted or countered and said, how about 75?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I didn't do the Google.
Marc:But I never do the... Well, and was I actually going to sell it?
Guest:No.
Marc:What's it called when you do that?
Guest:Oh, countering or whatever.
Guest:Or haggle.
Marc:Haggle.
Marc:I'm not a haggle.
Guest:I'm not either.
Marc:I'm like, just tell me.
Guest:Someone's like, hey, first time in London, you're 18, $50 for this Pashmina.
Guest:I'm like, thank you so much.
Yeah.
Guest:I would love to give you all the money I have.
Marc:What is that, though?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What does it take to just say, like, 25?
Marc:I don't know, but I want it.
Marc:But I think, sadly, it's because we want them to like us.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I just switched a joke on stage last night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's almost like I was hesitant to do it because I was annoyed by my own behavior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But essentially, a guy I was seeing didn't like that I drank LaCroix.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:This is a couple years back.
Guest:LaCroix?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's a real codependency problem.
Marc:Hey, I'm a little concerned.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, first it started with my sugar intake.
Guest:And he said, you know, I'm worried you're going to get diabetes.
Guest:And I was like, eyes on your own paper.
Guest:And then he said, you know, the LaCroix thing because it makes you burp.
Guest:And in my head, I'm going with my family.
Guest:I grew up with all girls.
Guest:It's like we're burping all the time.
Marc:We're burpers.
Marc:Yes, we are.
Guest:Where did you grow up?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:We burp in Ohio.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure do in Ohio.
Marc:Jesus.
Guest:And so the joke I came up with a couple of weeks ago was like, he's like, I'm worried about it makes you burp.
Guest:It's unhealthy.
Guest:And the joke was like, bye, you know.
Guest:And and then last night I riffed the truth, which was like, actually, I waited for him to break up with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, because I don't want that to be me.
Guest:And it's like, but when he finally did it, I was hurt.
Guest:But also that's what I wanted.
Guest:That was kind of not really a big punchline.
Guest:No.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:At Largo, so I did three shows last night.
Guest:And I, you know when you want to redo it, but you haven't listened back, so you can't do it perfectly sometimes.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I hardly ever listen back.
Marc:I've got hundreds of hours that I don't listen to.
Guest:Oh, of course.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Guest:What?
Guest:Is it all of us, though?
Guest:Because I can't bring myself to do it.
Marc:No, some dudes do their homework.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:I just keep doing things and then you lose things.
Guest:You lose things.
Marc:And then you're like, oh, yeah, that was really good.
Guest:I've lost things that I should have put in a special.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:It's like, because I, the only thing I take solace in is I go, okay, and this is sort of cheesy, but it's sort of like, you know, the waves going over and softening the rocks into gems.
Guest:Like, I just have to rely that the waves are going to grab what is necessary.
Marc:The stuff that you lock into is what you lock into.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:A lot of times things happen on stage.
Marc:It just goes away.
Marc:And it's never going to happen again the same way anyways.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:But there's whole riffs that I've done.
Marc:I've opened with for like 15, 20 minutes.
Marc:And I'm like, I got to check back on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think there was some good stuff in there.
Guest:But it's just sitting there.
Guest:And then you forget what city it was in.
Guest:Sometimes it's too elusive.
Guest:Sometimes it is the energy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I had a friend of mine, I just went to dinner on Wednesday with my friend Christina and she was like, you know, sometimes I think about that thing you said about guys bragging about one night stands and your joke about how all I hear is so no repeat customers.
Guest:And I was like, out loud, I'm like, that's pretty good.
Guest:I was like, where did that go?
Marc:Yeah, it was just the thing you said.
Guest:But the truth is I tried it again last night and it kind of doesn't hit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's probably why I dropped it.
Marc:Instinctively.
Marc:It was just a moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I've had people come up and tell me like they love this one joke and I'm like, I don't even think I did that on television.
Marc:Where the fuck did you hear that?
Guest:Yeah, I got to put that back in.
Marc:Or when people say like, I love that joke and I'm like, it's not mine.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Marc:That must have been the first guy.
Marc:I don't know how people do that after shows.
Marc:And I don't do a lot of clubs with just unknown features anymore or local features.
Marc:Well, I do, but where people come up and they just saw the show.
Marc:And they're like, that was so funny what you said.
Marc:I'm like, that wasn't me.
Marc:That wasn't mine.
Marc:People, I don't know what's wrong with their brains.
Guest:I know, but doesn't that make you, it makes me annoyed and simultaneously like, why do I work so hard?
Marc:I don't know if I feel that.
Marc:I'm just sort of like, the fuck is wrong with people?
Marc:There's two people on the show.
Guest:Separate us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You can't do that?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I don't like, I didn't, I don't think, I think the first time we met was the other few weeks ago.
Guest:Well, that's the first time you met me.
Marc:I knew you were around, but I didn't know what you, like really what you did.
Guest:I'm like,
Guest:I felt your presence for 13 years, but, you know.
Guest:Were you around that long?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would say first, but here's the thing.
Guest:That's fine.
Marc:I looked at your age, dude, and, you know, like, I am... Like, there's something really wrong with...
Marc:me in that like for some reason i can't know everybody number one and number two like i don't know if it was covid but all of a sudden everyone's younger than me and i don't know when that i think it must have been covid i look but i feel that too can i just say i'm never going to be the person that's like yeah i met you here here here and you don't remember no do please i love that
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Somebody did it to me.
Guest:I'm a senior.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:Somebody did it to me.
Marc:You're like two behind me.
Guest:Fine.
Guest:In this current room.
Guest:But I was doing that story show over in Echo Park.
Yeah.
Guest:And a young comma came up to me.
Guest:They're in town.
Guest:They don't even live here.
Guest:And I was like, oh, hey.
Guest:I go to introduce myself.
Guest:He's like, we met here, here, here.
Guest:And I go, and I looked at him.
Guest:I go, were you on my shows?
Guest:He was naming festivals.
Guest:Were you on my shows?
Guest:He's like, yeah.
Guest:You better believe I went home and freaking checked the receipts and texted the freaking organizer of the festival to get the lineup from two years ago.
Guest:He was not on my show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, well, thank God you know that.
Marc:Because I would hate for you to have to carry that with you.
Guest:Well, don't worry.
Guest:It's still with me three weeks later.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He did it to Jackie Cation right after me.
Guest:So at least that made me feel better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She goes, she handled it, of course, beautifully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was like, oh, I remember you from the show at the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then he pressed further.
Guest:She's like, yeah, one of the 300 people I meet a week.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, where the fuck did I meet you?
Guest:Let's call it Elysian Theater a couple of weeks ago.
Guest:No, I want to know the other time.
Guest:The original time?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Freaking 2011, what's up, Tiger Lily?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:That was always such a... I don't know how to describe it.
Guest:Milling about, waiting hours.
Guest:Are you next?
Guest:No, you're not.
Marc:That kind of thing?
Marc:So, impassive.
Guest:Yeah, but the truth is, it's not like, hello.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I must have just got there.
Guest:I moved in 2011.
Marc:You were like... 25 or something.
Marc:Right, and you were like, what...
Marc:20?
Marc:I mean, how old?
Guest:At the time, I was probably 25 or something.
Marc:Yeah, and I'm like, who's this upstart?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Another one.
Guest:And who's it?
Guest:Get out of here.
Guest:We don't need anymore.
Guest:Integrally.
Marc:How are people still moving here?
Marc:It's the worst performance situation in the world.
Marc:Just people eating and a bunch of tables.
Marc:Yeah, and there's a big gap in front of you.
Marc:And, like, half of them, like, didn't even know there was a show.
Marc:But it was one of those alt shows during the original alt thing where you're like, I've got to get on that.
Marc:I'm like, why?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Was that other one that, what was that?
Marc:Meltdown.
Marc:Well, Meltdown was like its own thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there was that other one that some woman whose first name was initials ran, JP or PJ or like, I don't remember something like, and she had one at a bar and they were all very compromised performing situations.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they were the most homogenized audiences ever.
Marc:Like, you know, same people every week too.
Marc:There's a room full of guys who look like Jonah Ray.
Yeah.
Marc:Which I started to dress like.
Marc:Well, this is the uniform.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'll give it a whirl.
Guest:I'll try it.
Marc:But where'd you come from?
Guest:Hell.
Marc:I know that.
Guest:I came from Ohio, but I started stand-up in Chicago.
Guest:So I started in 07.
Guest:Technically, I tried stand-up my senior year of college, my freshman and my senior year of college in Ohio.
Marc:Did you grow up in shitty Ohio?
Guest:South, not the shittiest.
Guest:I'd say, you know, maybe...
Guest:And I like Ohio.
Marc:There's a lot of beautiful parts of Ohio.
Marc:Tons.
Marc:But, like, a lot of Ohio got hit pretty hard.
Marc:And I don't mean to be condescending or say it shitty.
Marc:But I know that there were some hard times available in Ohio.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:And I personally loved my hometown.
Guest:I grew up in Dayton, Ohio, southwest corner.
Guest:Dayton, yeah.
Guest:Pretty close to Cincinnati.
Guest:I went to school in Oxford at Miami of Ohio.
Guest:So I had a lot of great Ohio times.
Guest:My family's still in Dayton.
Guest:I love going home.
Marc:To Dayton.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:And I shot my last special in Dayton.
Guest:A hometown special.
Marc:It felt like a hometown special.
Marc:You're very casual about it.
Marc:And you had some people in the room that were from the old days.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were there.
Guest:That used to bother me.
Guest:But, you know.
Marc:It used to bother me, too.
Marc:But like after a certain point – I just don't care anymore.
Marc:I'm a full adult.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I think – but you realize that your parents eventually get a kick out of it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Especially if you acknowledge them.
Marc:Then it kind of feeds their vanity or their narcissism in my case.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My dad will take whatever shit I give him.
Guest:My dad will say, he's very, it's your comedy.
Guest:Do whatever you want.
Guest:It's your life.
Guest:You talk about whatever you want.
Guest:Yesterday or two days ago for the first time in my life was a tinge of potential pushback, maybe hurt.
Guest:And it was a reflection of a neighbor saying something to him about it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Because he walks around with like business cards of me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your business card.
Guest:He had them made.
Guest:I mean.
Marc:Like I'm Beth's dad?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it says, it's just like my special.
Guest:It's like, in fact, I have, this is what I had set, the record label sent him these, which is just like the QR code for my, this special, but on LP.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so now he has like 500 of these he passes out.
Guest:I'm like, I'm sure people, you have to have repeats here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're going to Publix, World Gym, and Publix.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think everybody knows who I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So anyway, but someone had essentially said something along the lines of, well, you didn't raise her.
Guest:And I think that hurt his feelings.
Guest:But the truth is, I grew up in Ohio and my mom did raise me and my sisters.
Guest:And we were, I mean, I joke about it, but we were court ordered to visit him.
Marc:But why would that hurt him necessarily?
Marc:I think he likes to lay more claim on him.
Marc:Oh, but I thought it would be something like, you know, how do you handle her saying that shit about you?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I think she was trying to—he's in charge of Lawn of the Month in his area.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:What year is this?
Marc:What is Lawn of the Month?
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:It was a huge— Is it the 50s in Ohio?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:He's in Orlando.
Guest:So my parents are divorced, and he lives in Orlando, Florida.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So totally different world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we would have to fly, like, really far.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:To go— To see him.
Guest:Yeah, since I was six.
Oh.
Guest:I wish I kept those miles, by the way.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't know what happens to miles.
Marc:I'm in a lot of loyalty programs, and I always forget to use the points.
Marc:They don't really go away, but I space it out.
Guest:Oops.
Guest:I don't forget to use the points, but the interesting thing is, obviously, for tax purposes, you always want to be buying your flights.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The pro flights, yeah.
Guest:But use your points if you take a vacation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I don't know if you're a vacation guy.
Marc:Not too much, but I've done that with Amex points.
Marc:Yeah, you got to do that.
Marc:I'm surprised you can really do it.
Guest:I've had comics.
Guest:I ran into the Cara Williams at the airport.
Guest:We hung out in the American Lounge, which I'm mostly I'm like American than Delta.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll use like I used to use the Platinum Animax.
Marc:The Platinum Animax used to get you into American Lounge.
Marc:But now it works at Delta.
Guest:Oh, nice.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you don't need.
Guest:But she knew all that stuff and I didn't.
Guest:So I'm more relating to you in that.
Guest:She was like, Beth, you have to use these things.
Marc:The benefits.
Guest:It's almost like I feel like I don't deserve it or I feel weird in there.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They're not that great.
Marc:No, they're not that great.
Marc:But like first class American lounge is all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And international is great.
Marc:And some cities are better than others.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:When you fly international and you go into those lounges, you're like, holy fuck.
Marc:I know.
Marc:There's four restaurants in here.
Guest:And I had a really good meal.
Guest:I forget.
Guest:I was flying back from maybe Melbourne or something.
Guest:Alex Edelman brought me in on his dinner.
Marc:Yikes.
Marc:So that means you had to listen to that for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what's so funny?
Marc:I had him on the show.
Marc:I think he knows that I can bust his balls.
Guest:You're not the only one.
Guest:I dated a comic forever who would just straight up in his face be like, I don't want to talk to you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's sort of like, are you making this up?
Marc:And then eventually you just don't say that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're like, okay, so here we go.
Marc:He's going to talk to me about how he was a pitcher in the Red Sox or something like that.
Marc:Somehow in the green room after a show that he wasn't on.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he was there.
Marc:He was there for all the pivotal moments.
Marc:Green room?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:When Pryor came back after the fire, Edelman was there.
Marc:What?
Marc:You were not even... Yeah, okay.
Guest:I watched Pryor for the first time during the pandemic.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just was scared of Live from Long Beach in 1979.
Guest:Oh, later one.
Marc:That first one's the one.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah, the Live from Long Beach.
Marc:I remember that was sort of like he's coming back.
Marc:It took him a couple.
Marc:He had a problem with that.
Marc:He shot that twice.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:But that live in concert from like whatever it was, I mean, it must have been, what, 77 or something.
Marc:That, where he's wearing the red shirt, that one's crazy.
Marc:They're all pretty good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Especially for what we do.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Because, you know, he's got a lot of humanness.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And, you know, a lot of stories.
Marc:But so, okay, so you're in the lounge with Alex Edelman.
Marc:Tell me about the meal that you were going to tell me about.
Guest:I don't even have a story about that.
Guest:But it was just impressive.
Guest:I didn't know that was available at airline lounges.
Marc:Oh, it's crazy.
Marc:Yeah, no, they really, if you're going international, you, oh, but here's what I use my American points on to pay for the lounge.
Guest:Yeah, maybe I should do that.
Marc:Because, like, you know, it runs out.
Guest:That's a good idea.
Marc:Yeah, because when I go and they're like, oh, your thing ran out, I'm like, well, just, you know.
Marc:Use my points.
Marc:Yeah, let's get this going.
Guest:I think it was like, I looked it up once, in fact, in the last couple weeks, because I don't normally have a long layover.
Marc:You just couldn't take the hit that you didn't know what was going on.
Guest:It was like 7,500 points for one day, though.
Marc:No, it gets a year.
Guest:Okay, fine.
Marc:It's probably 150,000 points.
Guest:But that's a lot of points because you could fly somewhere.
Guest:I think I might have used my points to go.
Guest:I'm not kidding.
Guest:Somewhere far.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Maybe Buenos Aires.
Marc:You went to Buenos Aires?
Guest:Last December.
Marc:Just for fun?
Guest:I tried out for the U.S.
Guest:Women's Masters Field Hockey team last year, and I made the team.
Guest:And then I played in the Pan Am Continental Cup in December.
Marc:I have a question.
Marc:I'm just saying like percentage wise at a women who play field hockey when they're younger, who sticks with it?
Guest:I mean, what is the percentage?
Guest:A lot.
Guest:There's some, there are incredible field hockey players.
Marc:I'm not saying there aren't, but I just remember when I was in.
Marc:So many better than me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Those, like, I remember there was a team when I was in, I went to a kind of not a very impressive private school in Albuquerque.
Marc:Like, it was like the second, out of the two, it was number two in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Marc:It used to be a girls' school before it became just another private school.
Marc:But they had a field hockey team, and we played too.
Marc:And those sticks are menacing.
Guest:Menacing.
Guest:Menacing.
Guest:Ripping those balls at your ankles.
Guest:You better have worn shin guards.
Guest:Otherwise, you're going to get a big mark.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:I don't remember really what happened.
Marc:I know it didn't last long.
Guest:I remember having a huge crush on Sam Dunsky in junior high.
Guest:The Dunsker?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we played...
Guest:We played field hockey in gym class, but I'd already been playing since third grade.
Guest:So I was sort of like, oh, here's my time to shine.
Guest:And he was being sort of playful, like, you know, I'm going to get you.
Guest:I cranked it.
Guest:It hit him in the ankle.
Guest:I like almost still feel bad.
Guest:I can feel the moment.
Guest:It didn't break his ankle, but it blew it up.
Guest:I mean, he was limping for a couple of days.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That went wrong.
Marc:He'll always remember you.
Guest:I saw him at the reunion.
Guest:I know him and his wife.
Marc:What reunion?
Marc:What year?
Marc:20th.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:At least he went back with a special.
Guest:That's true.
Marc:That she thought, like, if I don't have something, I can't.
Guest:In fact, that Sunday I did a hometown release at the Neon Movie Theater.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:So everybody at the reunion came.
Guest:Kind of knew.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I was there really to promote, you know.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I went to, like, a 25th or something.
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:It wasn't that long ago.
Marc:Maybe it was more.
Marc:But it was clearly organized by exactly the people that you—
Marc:would assume would organize it yeah and i didn't it wasn't i didn't like them they were just sort of those were the the in crew yeah you know like the the girls who were either cheerleaders or what so there was a very very limited reunion okay and you know the jocks were there and i just like how they all blow up they just they just get you're like oh my god
Marc:look what happened to you.
Marc:You know, there's sort of a schadenfreude there, but you know, I went and I was sort of known and, but one of the women was like, so you want to do comedy?
Marc:You're a comedian.
Guest:Oh, I know.
Marc:And I was like, there's, there's no way.
Marc:No, no way.
Marc:Even there's no way.
Marc:Cause like it all gets triggered.
Marc:Even though you can look at the jocks and be like, look at them.
Marc:They're still like, I'm not going to put myself in a position to feel embarrassed because
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:In front of them again, which was my every waking moment.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I agree.
Guest:They're like, if you want to do a set, I absolutely do not want to do a set.
Guest:I appreciate the gesture.
Guest:It's kind of you to even offer, but oh, no.
Guest:Because the instinct would be to do— What would I talk about?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not doing my act.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, the instinct, I think, for most people would be to kind of do like corporate-style crowd work.
Marc:Like, hey, there's Chris Russo.
Marc:What happened, buddy?
Marc:I know, but I don't want to do that.
Marc:I don't know how to do that in that context without being too mean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know how to do it in general.
Marc:I'm not a roasty toasty.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:If I'm like swinging insults, it's because I feel cornered and attacked.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And like there's no joy in it.
Guest:Or I have an extremely drunk woman or man interrupting me where I am forced to say something.
Marc:Like lately, there's some like real old style Marin coming out in those moments.
Marc:Really?
Marc:It's a weird thing when you've done it as long as I have and you've been...
Marc:different versions of emotional on stage.
Marc:And I used to be pretty angry.
Marc:Um, but there were, it's just happened, dude.
Marc:It was in, I don't remember, but there were two women up front from Canada.
Marc:They were excited.
Marc:And, you know, I said something and they were both like, I was like, okay, you know, and then it's a huge, it's a theater.
Marc:So you got to repeat it and you know, okay, good.
Marc:And then I'm just, uh, I'm just going through my act and one of them starts gammering again.
Marc:And I just went, you have to stop talking now.
Marc:And it was one of those moments where the audience was like... And I'm like, okay, so you saw the real me.
Marc:How are we going to move forward?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But the thing is, even that is really not bad.
Guest:And you know that.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:But it's just, I...
Guest:I've been there.
Guest:I've learned the lesson, of course, different ways.
Guest:I've learned it from watching other comics.
Guest:I remember opening for a comic at Zany's in Chicago, which I don't play anymore, and just flipping out on somebody that was ordering a drink.
Guest:I actually have also done a similar thing.
Guest:I kicked people out who were ordering a drink, and then I couldn't really recover.
Guest:So I've had these moments, of course.
Guest:I'm never screaming at somebody.
Guest:I've not kicked someone out, and then the following show overcorrected by kicking other people out.
Marc:I had someone kicked out last week.
Guest:I've had them in the month of March.
Guest:I think I had three kicked out.
Marc:This guy was hostile and came out of nowhere.
Marc:And I just, you know, and there's like 900 people in the room.
Marc:And I'm like, OK, so what's going to happen now is you're going to get your money back and you're going to be escorted out.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Great.
Marc:And that was that.
Guest:I'm glad you did that.
Guest:Some guy stayed yelling.
Guest:It was near the end.
Guest:It was a closing bit.
Guest:I've been toying with two different closers.
Guest:And sometimes on the late when I don't feel, if they're super drunk or tired, I revert to the shorter, I just end a little quicker.
Guest:And it's the shorter bit at the end.
Guest:And he starts yelling.
Guest:And then at the end, I get through the bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I say, who was that yelling?
Guest:Is he still here?
Guest:And someone goes, he's still here.
Guest:Like that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I go, what did you want to say, sir?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I press him.
Marc:I'm like, we're not going to.
Guest:Nobody's leaving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Until you fucking say it to my face.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:When I'm not talking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he didn't?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:I think it was – some girl replied to me on Instagram later like, oh, that guy you were curious about was yelling about you hating men or something.
Guest:And if he had even listened or let me continue with that bet, I'm quite literally like drawing from –
Guest:I guess I would credit like bell hooks, the will to change.
Guest:I'm literally drawing from that feeling.
Guest:So I'm like, yes, I like, I love men.
Guest:I need men and I want more for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want you to be full thinking, human feeling, lovely beings.
Marc:I'm tired of believing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's another part of the bit, which is like, instead of, you know, everybody hated the believe women.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, rallying cry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, well, we should have rifted out with you guys.
Guest:And we might have come up with something gentler, like, I'm starting to think we shouldn't believe men.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that would have centered you guys.
Guest:Longer hashtag.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that got minimized to just gaslighting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:which is an interesting concept, gaslighting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because, like, I tried to do a bit about differentiating, you know, between, like, the word gaslighting has, you know, very real implications about something very disturbing.
Marc:But I used to try to do this bit where, like, some people are just lying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They're just lying.
Marc:It's not full gaslight.
Marc:It's just a maneuver.
Marc:True.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's, everybody lies.
Marc:And the other thing about that whole thing is, like,
Marc:More so than not, if somebody's breaking up with somebody, they got something else going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:True.
Marc:Right?
Marc:It's human.
Marc:A lot of those sort of, like, declarations or lines drawn take out the human element.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, like, let's be real.
Guest:There are many terms circling online.
Guest:It's so funny because even trigger, right, is almost triggering.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, trigger, gaslighting.
Guest:There's a lot of words that circulate where it's like, are we all on the same page?
Guest:Is it so clinical in a psychology way feeling?
Guest:Do we all have the right interpretation?
Marc:Yeah, I've been working on just dealing with the idea of trauma, fairly profound trauma.
Marc:But sometimes...
Marc:Profound trauma is not the most traumatic thing that you've experienced.
Marc:So I'm trying to deal with the idea of like, you know, you decide which traumas really have the most effect on your life.
Marc:And it might not be the worst one.
Guest:Yeah, it's true.
Marc:But you might just be compartmentalizing that and eventually it will become the worst one.
Guest:You know, I mean, sometimes I just go, I know it's not true, but I'm like, oh, I thought I dealt with that.
Guest:Or I thought it was healed.
Guest:You know, it's like the fact that you think you could work out once a week and then be in shape the rest of your life.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, the mind is a garden and you have to weed it.
Guest:And that's frustrating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think I've worked through certain things.
Guest:Then I go, wow, it's still haunting me.
Marc:Is it haunting you or is it just sort of like a component of your emotional makeup?
Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:I don't... I mean, like... You're still acting in relation to it.
Marc:So that's kind of haunting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I guess you're right.
Guest:I don't love that description that I gave it.
Guest:It's just... It's still affecting my life in a negative way.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The wiring.
Guest:When I thought I was over it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And now all of a sudden you're like, oh, my God.
Guest:But speaking of...
Guest:It's like something comes up and now I'm off to the fucking races.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't want to be like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I don't want to overreact and make something that it's not.
Guest:But what if it is that thing that hurt me before?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm an idiot again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I go, OK, well, then you're just an idiot again.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you'll accept that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The consequences that come with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I don't want that to happen.
Guest:So.
Marc:But that's the process.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Cognitive, you know, choices.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:The thing about trigger that's weird to me is like, you know, I remember like, I don't know if you can identify it, but some, you know, some things make me, you know, uncomfortable.
Marc:But I, my brain was always like, I was always pretty uncomfortable.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it was all relative.
Marc:So when I was uncomfortable, I'm like, well, I just got to, you know, kind of take it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like when it comes to stand up and like there were definitely people, I guess, that trigger me or that I'm uncomfortable with.
Marc:But it informs something else.
Marc:It doesn't make me go.
Marc:They have to shut up.
Marc:I have to leave.
Marc:But I'm just sort of like, all right, that's happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I feel this.
Marc:And now, you know, now it's my issue.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've gotten a little weird about that.
Marc:I'm trying to sort of figure that stuff out and move through it on stage by talking about trauma.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not to help my trauma, but just to sort of like begin that type of public discourse about it where it's not, you know, where it's not inspiring, but it's sort of like, but I'm okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I'm a little fucked up, but I'm okay.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm still functioning in the world.
Guest:I mean, the truth is also, it's just so many, it's a multi-pronged approach.
Guest:So many aspects contribute to your well-being.
Guest:So if one drags, then you got to check in on that.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:It's not just one thing typically.
Marc:You spend a lot of time on this stuff?
Guest:Yeah, I feel like I have.
Guest:Sometimes, of course, I look back and I go, I wish I could go back to the times where I felt fairly unscathed by the world, where the childhood stuff was the only thing that I knew was there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or I didn't think that that was going to be a big effect on my life.
Guest:And ultimately, I was actually just like a magnet being hurled at a fridge, being told not to stick, you know?
Guest:And I don't think I—so then when I stuck and it happened, I'm like, oh, wait, I didn't escape it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's the weird thing you realize, that there's something about—
Marc:And, you know, this happens, I think, depending on how you're wired or what the hell happened when you were a kid.
Marc:But I know that I'm this guy and I've pushed back against it is that, you know, if you're denied some sort of thing by whether it's, you know, the way your parents brought you up or they didn't or through trauma is that you're an emotional mark.
Marc:Like, and you can't, it's like this Burroughs line where you can't hide the mark inside, right?
Marc:So you're going to end up, you know, honoring that shit because you're wired that way.
Marc:And that's harder to, you know, kind of put a fucking boundary on.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because when you put the boundary on, everything feels like, well, this is not really, doesn't have the kick.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, is there any way I can have the unhealthy thing, but still be good?
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's always like, you know, you look at past partners, and it's almost just like, to me, I always picture it like we're just scratching each other's bad itch.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, there's that difference between drama and intimacy, that thing.
Marc:Well, what do you track the most traumatic thing that you can see?
Marc:Not an event necessarily, but the contours of what defines you.
Marc:I mean, it's in the special a bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would say from childhood to adulthood and then an added layer would be
Guest:Probably intimate partner abuse.
Guest:The fear of that happening.
Guest:And I didn't think it was really there.
Guest:But ultimately you would be hurt by the partner you've chosen.
Marc:Did you grow up with that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My dad struggled with mental illness.
Guest:And...
Guest:in a very traumatic event of our childhood, did have a plan to kill my mom and kidnap us.
Guest:What?
Guest:So that was as a child.
Marc:Do you talk about that on stage?
Guest:I've never... No one really knows about that.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:How'd you find that out?
Guest:You're welcome.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:This is going to go huge.
Guest:Huge.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's going to change your life.
Guest:But...
Guest:How did I find out?
Guest:I was there for it.
Guest:He said it?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I mean, he attempted it and was in jail.
Guest:And my mom was in the hospital.
Guest:We had to live with our grandparents.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:I was three.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And my sisters were two, of course.
Marc:They're younger?
Guest:I'm the youngest, yeah.
Guest:So about three.
Marc:So you all saw this happen?
Guest:Seven and...
Marc:Eight.
Marc:So you all saw it happen?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, my sister, my oldest sister called 911.
Marc:So he didn't get to kidnap you?
Guest:No.
Marc:Because the attack.
Marc:Because the police came.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:How badly hurt was your mom?
Guest:She spent a while in the hospital healing.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And like I said, live with our grandparents, which is also a very big part of my childhood and how I ended up the way I am.
Guest:Like just my grandpa was a World War II vet, not in combat or anything like that, but that era and depression era.
Guest:Very strict.
Guest:You know, like being taken from my mom at three and then having a place where I can't touch the walls and I can't suck my thumb and my blanket is like he threatens to wash the car with it.
Guest:And, you know, we could only use a certain amount of toilet paper and everything was there, you know, like so many.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So oftentimes, there's always going to be reflections of this in my adulthood.
Guest:I think sometimes I've looked at people or friends, partners who are like, well, I treat you this way because my dad's dead.
Guest:And I'm like, you're a grown man.
Guest:Get over it.
Guest:So there's very much a part of responsibility that comes with growing up and not putting these things on other people.
Guest:So I felt that I had.
Guest:I feel grateful for my childhood.
Guest:My mom did her best.
Guest:She's amazing.
Marc:When did you get back with her?
Marc:How long were you with your grandparents?
Guest:I can't remember the exact amount of time.
Guest:Maybe like eight months or something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:And that was tough to be away from my mom that long.
Marc:At three?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then to be put in a place that was so rigid.
Guest:And then we didn't see our dad for a while.
Guest:And, of course, when we did, there was like... There's so much drama in that.
Guest:But essentially, my...
Guest:I don't even know where to start because it's so much is all.
Guest:Like, you know what I mean?
Guest:Like, there's so many things.
Marc:But how do you start – how does one negotiate as a family how to reengage that guy?
Guest:Well, okay.
Guest:So –
Guest:It's my story, and it's also so many other people's stories.
Guest:As an adult, you start to go, okay.
Guest:It's not that I'm hesitant to be like—because I've never been, especially as a stand-up.
Guest:It's like, well, I'll say my story, and my dad has given me that permission, and my mom.
Marc:I've talked to at least one other person that was kidnapped by a parent.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Well, he didn't get to, but we eventually—here's the thing.
Guest:My mom—because he had been struggling with mental illness for a while, and my mom actually did not file for a divorce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was him while she was in the hospital.
Guest:And so I think she wanted us to have a relationship with him.
Marc:Did she press charges?
Guest:No.
Guest:she wanted us to have a relationship with him.
Guest:I think she wanted him to get well and seek treatment.
Guest:And that was not really, his family and father was a doctor, sort of basically got him out of everything in a way.
Guest:So she... And paid and had the money because he had been running up credit card debt.
Guest:There was a lot of erratic behavior.
Marc:So she saw what happened as a mentally ill event.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Um, I guess it's such a tough thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, right?
Guest:Because I didn't really have a choice.
Guest:I'm just being sent.
Guest:Like we had some visitation through like with a mediator.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember that those experiences to be very strange.
Guest:He had already.
Guest:But by the time I saw him again, he had a wife.
Guest:So we're seeing him again, and he has a new wife.
Marc:Oh, this is crazy.
Guest:And she is an alcoholic, and very much her motto in life is next page.
Guest:So perfect for him.
Marc:They still together?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's tough, right?
Guest:Because when you say alcoholic, I think so many people are offended by that.
Guest:That's not something they've chosen to face or deal with.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It seems like some sort of... Yeah.
Marc:Are they?
Guest:What?
Guest:Offended by it?
Guest:I feel that my people who I know and love who struggle with it don't like – not all, of course.
Guest:Some are in recovery and some are like, I'm an alcoholic.
Guest:And then others who are either stopping some way on their own or whatever.
Marc:Or they don't think they're an alcoholic.
Guest:It's an insult to them.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think, too – Aggressive denial.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, we witnessed it.
Guest:We lived it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So we know.
Guest:I know that to be true.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're sober.
Yeah.
Guest:I'm not.
Marc:You never had that thing?
Guest:Thankfully not.
Marc:That's intense.
Marc:So then he goes to Orlando?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And from an early age, despite what happened, you've had a relationship with him and it's been okay?
Guest:It's strange.
Guest:I talk with my oldest sister.
Guest:We all have this different experience and interpretation of it because we were different ages and have more memories and understanding of it.
Guest:And I think my oldest sister is very much like...
Guest:uh, has a, he's sort of in an alternate reality.
Guest:I don't think he's in, he has admitted it.
Guest:Like, that's the thing.
Guest:I, I don't even know how to, he was diagnosed with, um, manic depression is what it was called.
Guest:And, you know, he didn't like the medication he was put on.
Marc:No, I had, my dad was manic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so it's just a tough thing.
Guest:Like, um, we, Mo Welch and I, one of my best friends and a comedian, we started a podcast together recently and we called him on maybe the first episode.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Because Mo directed my special and people are, you know, stand up can sometimes only cover so much.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, I've taken it to dark places for sure.
Guest:And that took even more work for me to be able to do that on stage about my own experiences.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we call him.
Guest:And of course, the whole studio is enamored with him.
Guest:He's so sweet.
Guest:And, you know, like, and it doesn't.
Guest:people aren't all one thing.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:You're wrong.
Guest:He's evil.
Guest:You know, that's not the correction.
Guest:But there is so much more to it.
Guest:So, and I think my mom was on the side of, I'm not going to say anything bad.
Guest:This is, the court is ordering you to see him.
Guest:I want you to have a relationship with him.
Guest:Meanwhile, him and his wife, we would hear sometimes mean things about my mom.
Guest:And it didn't much make sense.
Guest:But kids are so smart and very intuitive.
Guest:And so we always knew.
Marc:Well, that's the thing I've realized in dealing with, you know, this stuff is that,
Marc:Even whatever they're trying to hide is going to it's you're going to absorb it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whatever the underlying thing like, well, I'm not going to do this in front of the kids or I'm not going to share that part of my life.
Marc:It all goes into you because you're wired by their their their brain.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Not by their experience.
Marc:So, you know, you're going to be given the same fucking processing machine that they have, you know, even without knowing any of the behavior.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then all of a sudden you're struggling with these things and you're like, why?
Marc:And it's because, well, oh yeah, then you find out later, like, oh, they were all fucked up like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So nothing gets hidden.
Marc:No.
Guest:And it's like tough to make sense of because it's like one of those things where it's like, there's no part of me that's like, okay, well, this is a deep, dark secret.
Guest:But then it's also like, you know, you don't want to be the person at a party.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:I've been raped.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you go, okay, well, where is the time and place for it?
Guest:And of course my mom has interpreted sometimes my early days of standup as like therapeutic for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, I always had jokes about it and him, and I'm sure it's been complicated for her as well.
Marc:I mean, that's the other thing you got to take into consideration is like, how much do you want?
Marc:What are you willing to risk in your current relationship with these people by sharing your side of the story?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And to make what funny.
Guest:And that's the thing that came up even recently.
Guest:He said, oh, well, she said, you know, well, you didn't raise her.
Guest:And that you could tell he felt a way about that.
Guest:You could tell he felt a way about that.
Guest:But even like his side and perspective of things was my mom was having an affair and all these things.
Guest:So he, instead of like, hey, let's get a divorce and separate, it's I'm going to kill you and take the girls to Florida where his parents had moved and sort of almost abandoned him in a way.
Guest:Because we were all in Ohio.
Guest:But as my dad's upticking and...
Guest:Quitting his job as a teacher and going to work at a gym and running up credit card debt and buying a Jeep and all these things.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And my mom's just sort of trying to ride the storm out.
Guest:She's getting an extra job.
Guest:She meets someone at that second job who for her, I think, felt like a friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe someone to talk to and figure it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was involved in the church, which is a whole other aspect of this, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my dad was very much like, well, she's cheating on me.
Guest:And I think his own father contributed to those feelings.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, again, even if my mom was, and I've talked to her about this as an adult, she's like, I wasn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't kill someone for that.
Marc:You don't really kill someone for anything.
Guest:For anything.
Guest:Yeah, ideally.
Marc:Killing's bad.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:It's always been bad.
Guest:You know, that's something we kind of want to just state here on the WTF podcast.
Marc:If there's anything you come away with from this talk.
Marc:We're anti-killing.
Marc:Yeah, we're against the killing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's pretty fascinating.
Marc:And yeah, because you do talk about in the special, you talk about the Christian thing a bit, but you talk about, you know, you do talk about him as being a peculiar guy, but it's, you know, it's mostly about raccoons.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And, and, and think about that.
Guest:So when you, and he also has a wiener dog, I don't talk about who treats very much like a child.
Guest:I'm drawing the line at wiener.
Guest:Don't want to talk about my dad's wiener.
Guest:He would love for us to talk about his wiener, honestly.
Guest:But, you know, let's be real.
Guest:He didn't necessarily get all that time with us.
Guest:He's going to do it with animals, his wiener dog.
Guest:He brushes its teeth.
Guest:He wipes its butt.
Guest:He takes it on 17 million walks a day.
Guest:It's his baby.
Guest:And it's like, and animals can't give notes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:They don't have a history.
Guest:They die.
Guest:If you feed them lunch meat, which he did.
Guest:He died?
Guest:He's had several wiener dogs.
Guest:But yeah, he felt like he was kind of doing a good thing by giving it extra nice lunch meat.
Guest:And it's very high in sodium and bad for their digestive tract.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Good to know.
Guest:Yeah, stop giving him the cats.
Guest:I'm pretty on top of the cat.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:But the truth is, too, so my mom did go on to actually marry that guy that my dad thought she was cheating with.
Guest:So that didn't contribute to his any thoughts on that.
Guest:And that marriage ended up ending, but...
Guest:I think that was someone who was there for my mom, and it makes sense that she would sort of go towards that person afterwards in a time of recovery.
Marc:Yeah, that's sort of what I'm saying.
Marc:People go to where it's warm, is what my ex-wife, second ex-wife used to say.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, they go where, you know, like she taught me a lot.
Marc:And, you know, in our relationship was, you know, I was newly sober and I was out of my mind and emotionally untethered and unhinged.
Marc:And I, you know, and I've made amends about it and I feel terrible about a lot of it.
Marc:And but like she's the one who introduced me to sobriety and for someone of her age knew a lot of stuff.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And when she did leave me, I mean, she left me for somebody.
Marc:But it was, you know, over the years I've realized, like, you know, good for her.
Marc:Because, you know, I had a lot of fucking work to do and I was a monster.
Marc:So, but people do want to be set up.
Marc:Or have somewhere to go.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I mean, I think that was a pattern for me in my 20s.
Guest:I mean, just in dating wise.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because after that happened in childhood, it's like, I, again, it's sort of like, I had so many positive things about my childhood.
Guest:My sisters and my mom and I were a unit.
Guest:You know?
Guest:It's like Stelling Party of Four.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it seems like there was something grounding you.
Marc:I mean, you did a lot of things.
Marc:You weren't like some weird wallflower.
Guest:We all were.
Guest:We all played field hockey.
Guest:I did speech and debate.
Guest:I did the plays.
Guest:My sisters were in the musicals.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:I just ran track.
Guest:They're amazing people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your mom must have been amazing.
Guest:She is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I can't even sometimes imagine how she did it.
Guest:Truly.
Guest:She was an elementary school music teacher.
Guest:And then she was never, she shared as an adult later.
Guest:I remember her saying something like, sometimes I only had, you know, seven bucks to get us to Friday, you know, and we would, I love Taco Bell.
Guest:Like there's, I didn't.
Guest:Worked out.
Guest:It all worked out.
Guest:But, um, so, so I felt, you know, and I had.
Marc:Did you do that on stage?
Marc:No.
Marc:That's funny.
Yeah.
Marc:That's just a joke that wrote itself.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She never told us.
Marc:She always had $7 to get us through Friday.
Marc:And I didn't.
Guest:I love taco.
Guest:But, like, I felt I had young love.
Guest:I fell in love when I was 15.
Guest:It was a positive experience.
Guest:I'm still friends with him.
Guest:So I felt kind of like, I'm good, you know?
Guest:And it really wasn't until I was out here that I found myself dating somebody more in that dangerous realm where I was intimately hurt.
Guest:And then I think to speak back, to call back to our initial entry into this—
Guest:It was like those two moments for me, it was like, oh, my gosh.
Guest:Not like, oh, no, I'm my mom.
Guest:I love my mom.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I felt like, oh, my gosh, I thought I avoided this.
Guest:How am I involved with someone who would hurt me in this way?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when I, being a comic, the way I sometimes felt is I'm so forthcoming.
Guest:I'm like the youngest of the girls.
Guest:Like, ask me something, I'll tell you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's taken so long to be like, oh, you don't have to say anything.
Guest:But I think for me as a comic, it was like, well, I'm holding a megaphone.
Guest:So if you pinch my butt, bleep, I'm going to squeak.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everybody's going to hear it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when that happened to me, I felt fine being like, I'll say something about what happened.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I was very vocal about that.
Guest:And it kind of, in this way, spread through the comedy community.
Guest:News outlets sort of picked it up.
Guest:I was just basically saying, like, hey, comedy community, this person is probably not well and dangerous.
Guest:And so many people who knew me over the years and know my character and who I am are like, oh, my goodness, Beth.
Guest:Like, how could you get involved with somebody who would hurt you in this way?
Guest:It's like— Well—
Guest:Let me tell you something.
Guest:In 15 years, I'm going to tell Marc Maron.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because your first thought, even in being the victim of a situation, was like, this guy's not well.
Guest:Not like, that motherfucker.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there is so much ask sometimes of, you know, victim isn't, again, speaking of words, doesn't bother me.
Guest:Some people would rather not say that I'm not a victim.
Guest:There's this thing.
Guest:I started working with the YWCA in my hometown after things.
Guest:And Monique is one of the women there who's like, I'm not a victim, not a liar.
Guest:I'm a survivor type thing.
Guest:That's sort of how she feels about it.
Guest:But it's one of those things where I go, ugh.
Guest:I wanted, you're almost expected to have compassion for that person who's hurt you.
Guest:Because if you are going to say something, and I've learned this, of course, after I received a lot of love and understanding, but also, of course, blowback and attack.
Marc:Well, people want, you know, they want a cause.
Marc:And it seems like what you were doing was warning people, which is what you should do.
Marc:But when it gets out in the world, it becomes a cause.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then, you know, justice has to be served in that way that pile on justice is served.
Guest:And that was my own, I don't even want to call it a bad experience.
Guest:I remember someone asking me, like, do you wish you hadn't said anything?
Guest:And part of me, of course, says yes.
Guest:Because I know I helped people.
Guest:I mean, I have physical representation of helping people, for sure.
Guest:There are people in my life who have come to me and said, I saw that.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Help me do this.
Guest:All these things.
Guest:So I'm grateful for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it hurt me badly.
Guest:And also many women, there was women before me who came to me and said, he also hurt me.
Guest:There's women after who didn't want to say anything.
Guest:And they're like, I'm so sorry, I don't want to say anything.
Guest:You don't have to say anything at all.
Guest:I wish I hadn't.
Guest:But there is sort of a thing that happened of me running from that.
Guest:Because I almost... From having said it.
Guest:From having said it.
Guest:Because I wanted to just be a good comic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And not have... Oh, that's the one that...
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Whatever.
Guest:I just want either side of that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Or sort of like, you know, the there's so many attacks people get if they come forward about a man hurting them.
Guest:But for attention or it's like, yeah, I didn't do that for maybe medical attention.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I.
Guest:I felt like at that time I had my Comedy Central half hour coming out.
Guest:I was like, I can prove that I am good at what I do.
Guest:I don't need this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm my own thing.
Marc:Well, it's sad that you would even have to think about that.
Guest:There's so many things you think about as it unfolds, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a terrible time.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And even as a comic, I can relate it to that, which is like as you're building your crowd –
Guest:You know what it feels like early days of headlining when no one's there to see you.
Guest:And if you're not their cup of tea, we'll fucking buckle up for the next hour.
Guest:You're going to hate me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that feeling for me of like 44, 59, I'm done.
Guest:I got to get out of here.
Guest:And it felt like suiting up in armor.
Guest:And that's how it feels like to come forward about something like that, where you have to be like, I'm about to get attacked and I have to be strong.
Guest:And so the blowback from that feels like I've been running from that for years.
Guest:I read John Ronson's book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed recently.
Guest:My friend Ennis Esmer recommended it.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:And I can relate to that.
Guest:As you recall in the book, they hire that company to sort of basically push your Google results down.
Guest:I feel like I've been working my ass off.
Guest:So when you search for me, it's not that.
Guest:So you see, no, I am a good comic.
Guest:I did a half hour on Comedy Central on Netflix.
Guest:I have an hour on Netflix.
Guest:I have an hour on HBO.
Guest:These are the things you can see that I've done.
Guest:And it sucks.
Marc:But you do know you did the right thing.
Guest:I think so, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's not nothing.
Marc:True.
Marc:And, you know, you sort of got a situation in check.
Marc:You warned the world that this person hurts people.
Marc:And you gave voice to other people that had the experience.
Marc:And also, as you said, the ripple effect is, you know, your courage, you know, inspired other people to change your life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, that I would think on good days transcends like, this bitch hates men.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's like, you know, I'm sorry you went through that.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Of course, there's so many days where I go, I wish that never fucking happened.
Marc:But it is interesting because what we were talking about to get here was how these things, how we're wired and how our childhood experience and childhood trauma, but also just who raised us, programs us in a certain way that we may not be aware of.
Marc:And it could take a lifetime to figure that out.
Marc:But most of it is some part of your fucking childhood brain wants to honor how you were brought up.
Marc:And it's dominant.
Marc:And it's fucked up.
Marc:Because, you know, that's what feels like home.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And when you're in a situation that doesn't feel like home, you're like, I don't know why this little... It's not as exciting.
Marc:This is a little boring.
Guest:Or it's actually made me emotional.
Guest:Because, again, I've dated plenty of wonderful people.
Guest:I would say after that, I thought, oh, well, I'll never do that again.
Guest:And, of course, I did have some harmful relationships again.
Marc:But sometimes you don't know.
Marc:You don't know.
Marc:That's the other thing.
Marc:It's like, oh, four months in, this person's not well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, everybody is...
Guest:I can't remember the fucking joke I wrote about it, but yeah, it's like the first days are like, oh, this is fun.
Guest:And all of a sudden- Yeah, it's good.
Marc:We really connect.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then all you're like, uh-oh.
Marc:The bad part of me connects.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:I've done it again.
Marc:But then how are you getting out?
Guest:Bad.
Guest:I mean, it took me a while to get out of that last one.
Guest:Like, here's the thing.
Guest:I noticed it right away.
Marc:The one with the LaCroix?
Guest:That was kind of a short-lived six-weeker.
Guest:Oh, good for you.
Guest:But that's the thing.
Guest:Thank goodness he ended it.
Marc:He just couldn't take it with the sugar and the LaCroix.
Marc:I got to get out of here.
Yeah.
Guest:This woman's a nightmare.
Marc:Jesus Christ, when's it going to stop?
Guest:Different flavors?
Guest:I forgot to say I was crushing the cans on my head and between my tits as well.
Guest:Hey, look!
Guest:No, after him.
Guest:And, again, it's like I never want to, like, demonize these people.
Guest:He's going through his own thing.
Guest:But that was my first, like, full-blown probably alcoholic that I knew of and drug addict with cocaine.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Guest:And I've never done cocaine.
Marc:And I think sometimes— And you've got to watch them spin out at 2 in the morning?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's happening?
Guest:Sugar water it, you know?
Guest:Just jaw jabbering.
Marc:This is the guy that had trouble with sugar and LaCroix?
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:The guy after him.
Guest:And I was with him for about two years.
Guest:I did notice it, and I did end it.
Guest:I remember it was like red flag, red flag, red flag, okay?
Guest:And then one bad thing, an event happened where... I don't even know where to get the details of it, but essentially he's like, drive...
Guest:Two hours to Santa Barbara.
Guest:I really want you here for this event.
Guest:I'm like, I just dropped you off at this thing.
Guest:I don't know if I should.
Guest:I show up 33 beers deep or something.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Guest:And someone he had been with before was there.
Guest:He says something totally inappropriate to her about being inside her.
Guest:And I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to leave.
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:I drove the two hours back.
Guest:Anything he had at my house, I put in the garage.
Guest:And I just said, hey, just not in a disheveled way.
Guest:Of course, it was very organized.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I probably washed and folded his clothes and put them in there.
Guest:And I said, pick it up in there and we're done.
Guest:And the minute I made the mistake was hearing him out, believing him when he said, but I love you for the first time.
Marc:Was he shit on the porch?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I took him back once.
Guest:And then I took him back probably two more times.
Guest:That was bad.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I'm doing a whole bit about...
Marc:dealing with a mentally ill person who I couldn't get out from under.
Marc:And I couldn't figure out why.
Marc:Yeah, what is it?
Marc:You're still working on it.
Marc:Well, I'm not a beacon of mental health.
Marc:No.
Marc:And I have a certain component in me that I try to keep hidden in a way.
Marc:But I'm a pretty codependent person.
Marc:And there was something about this person that was so lit up and so exciting that...
Marc:That, you know, I wanted her to do better for herself.
Marc:And I wanted, you know, I wanted the thing to work out.
Marc:She had some dreams.
Marc:I'm like, well, I can help you and all this other stuff.
Marc:But then the drama became so intense.
Marc:You know, the fights, the insanity.
Marc:And then when her mental illness really started to reveal itself, you know, it became scary.
Marc:And like I, you know, I had to get out and I had to go to meetings.
Marc:Same.
Marc:To do it.
Marc:Like, and I'm doing a whole fucking bit about this.
Marc:Same.
Marc:But it was dicey about the bit because, you know, I'm not speaking down to her condition because I am the companion to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I am the guy they find, you know, and I have that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, you know, I am the mirror of that mental illness.
Marc:I am mentally ill in that way myself, emotionally.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So I really started to kind of plant that in order to be empathetic properly.
Marc:But the truth is, you know, it's a fairly long bit, and I don't always do it.
Guest:I'm sure it's also – there are things, too, that are taxing in a way of it, I found.
Marc:It's a little taxing, but it's scary because I know I'm a mark for that.
Guest:Like, you know, once you start describing – I felt like that, too, with those at least two or three of them where you're like, oh, I am a –
Guest:It makes me mad, and I don't want to be self-righteous about it, which is what I'm not supposed to be.
Guest:But it makes me be like, did you see me?
Guest:And definitely go, oh, I can fool her.
Marc:Well, I don't think that's it.
Marc:I just think that you have an emotional component where they're going to hear it, and they're going to think they're not as bad as what you talked about.
Marc:So they're not seeing it as a challenge.
Marc:They're going to be like, oh, she likes people like me.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, but I'm better.
Marc:You know, I'm not not that guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that guy, of course, knew about the past thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think you're right about what you just said.
Guest:I'm not that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but like it's it's it's a it's a real weird place to be to try to develop real boundaries around that stuff.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And I talk about it on stage like I talk about the condition, you know, and and I say, I know there's some people in here that have it.
Marc:And some of them are self-aware and may be getting help, but others are going like, that's me and I'm going to say hi.
Marc:You know?
Marc:And I've gotten enough distance from it, and I'm aware of it enough to be able to go, I do a whole thing about it.
Marc:There's never a dull moment.
Marc:A moment doesn't go by where every second you're like, what's going to happen?
Marc:And look, if you're younger and a little naive, it's pretty exciting.
Marc:But that's where I learned that
Marc:You know, the arc of drama in a relationship can masquerade as intimacy because you're going to get there eventually.
Marc:There's going to be tears.
Marc:There's going to be yelling.
Marc:There's going to be, you know, ultimatums.
Marc:But then there's going to be crying and fucking.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like, we made it.
Guest:We're closer than ever.
Guest:I think that that can happen, too.
Guest:You're talking about it right now on stage.
Guest:I'm talking about a similar thing of my past relationship, which is why I was drawn to that person in the past.
Guest:And I'm dating someone now who...
Guest:who I sometimes think about, you were talking about the uncomfortability of feeling almost like safe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel different with the current person than I've ever felt about anybody.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:I also notice myself very emotional at times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I sometimes will think about them and get emotional.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's sort of interesting and hard for me to understand.
Guest:It's almost like, is it so cheesy that I'm like, oh, I don't know if I deserve this and that's what's making me cry?
Guest:Or do I feel so supported and seen in love that that's making me cry?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are my hormones changing as a woman as I age?
Guest:And that's what's making me cry.
Guest:Like, I don't know the answer.
Marc:Well, the being seen and loved.
Marc:But it sounds like your mom was pretty solid.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And knew how to be selfless.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And have true selfless love for her children and give them the space they needed to develop.
Yeah.
Marc:I didn't really have that.
Marc:Like, there was no... Like, I don't trust love in general because it was always sort of... Their needs were always, you know, at the forefront, right?
Marc:So, like, I became exhausted.
Marc:I don't think I developed my sense of self properly because of their needs.
Marc:And this is just stuff, you know, I've put together over time.
Marc:So I, you know, enter the world, you know, I used to say, you know, I'm like...
Marc:I'm 40 and I'm like a kid lost at a mall.
Guest:Mommy!
Guest:Grabbing the wrong leg.
Marc:Yeah, whoever's going to step in.
Marc:But my mom was not good at momming at all.
Marc:My dad was completely out of his mind.
Marc:So because of that,
Marc:You know, I don't believe love, and I don't, like, I don't believe I'm worthy of it.
Marc:And my insecurity is profoundly deep, even after all this time.
Marc:Like, I'll go, I'll find myself going like, no, I don't know how to do this.
Marc:You know, it's like, if I were my real self, I'd just be crying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it doesn't go.
Guest:That's the hard part, I guess.
Guest:It doesn't go away.
Guest:It's like a constant.
Marc:It kind of does go away because you realize I think the best framing I've gotten of it is that, you know, the emotional reactions of wherever you were hurt.
Marc:And if you're acting out of that that age, you know, that that kid's inside of a 60 year old man now.
Marc:So you do have some recourse.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You can say like, hey, kid, we've done a lot of stuff.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:We've got this.
Guest:We're okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm an adult.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We're here now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We're safe.
Guest:I got this.
Marc:The biggest realization I had about that was when, you know, I used to rage and I realized that was a very young reaction.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, when you're a raging 10 year old in the body of a 45 year old, it's kind of menacing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's terrible.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So like, you know, it's not a good look.
Marc:How are you going to shut that kid up?
Marc:Keep it together.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What is even angry about?
Marc:And you sort that out.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like, you know, if you're cursed with this, with having, you know.
Marc:You know, two emotionally ungrounded parents who were whatever or abusive in some other way.
Marc:It's like, you know, you've got to pull yourself together somehow.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Could take your whole fucking life.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And that's the frustrating part because you also, as the adult, want that connection.
Guest:You want love.
Guest:We all do.
Guest:And if you're linking up with people.
Marc:I still push back.
Yeah.
Marc:I push back.
Marc:Keep it at arm's distance.
Guest:We get a good amount from stage.
Guest:I know, but I'll push back on that, too.
Guest:Hey, that wasn't that funny.
Marc:Well, no, just sort of like, oh, you like me, huh?
Marc:Let me tell you this story.
Guest:Oh, you like that?
Guest:Yeah, how you feeling about that?
Guest:Well, you're going to hate this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'll get you not to like me.
Marc:I used to do a joke on stage where I say my dynamic with my audience is like I like to pull you in and push you away and then pull you in and push you away.
Marc:It's a little dynamic I call dad.
Guest:That's how I play catch.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:But we're doing okay, I think.
Guest:I think we are.
Guest:We are doing okay.
Guest:Sounds like you're in a good thing.
Guest:I'm in a good thing.
Guest:I would say, too.
Guest:But that's kind of what I meant.
Guest:It's a garden that I got to weed.
Guest:Because things have come up.
Guest:He had made one small, basically, lie when I asked something.
Guest:And then later said, you know what?
Guest:I don't know why I did that.
Guest:I think it was because I was...
Guest:You know, he came clean, took accountability for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The reason I said that is because I knew that you would maybe worry and your ex had done this sort of thing.
Guest:I didn't want you to think that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I will say it's now on me and it's on my side of the street.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had been unraveling by not talking about it with him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But even though you took accountability for it, I'm still – it's the lie because my ex lied so much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I took him back so many times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The recent ex.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I'm doing the thing now where I'm like, oh, no, have I chosen wrong again?
Guest:And it unraveled me a bit.
Guest:He was just, for example, getting it's like it's like the detective thing in me.
Guest:I like come back to being a detective like I was in that most recent ex relationship.
Yeah.
Guest:My current boyfriend, like, opened the medicine cabinet, and I can hear what the pills are.
Guest:Like, it was Advil.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I know that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it, like, set— Wow, that's pretty sensitive.
Guest:I know, because my ex would get anything.
Guest:Like, whenever I did a show where there's weed, he's, like, taking all of it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's all the same place I kept the weed.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So he would take anything and everything.
Guest:Or I could hear him opening the freezer if I had a vodka in there, which I never drank, so it's always in there.
Guest:Like, I could always hear everything no matter what room I was in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So anyway, point is it just set me off.
Guest:And he's like, but he sat with me and was in it for like an hour.
Guest:And it's not that I was sobbing the whole time or something.
Guest:I was like, just for lack of a better term, fully triggered.
Guest:And he's like, I don't know.
Guest:I don't want to over explain, but I was just getting Advil, you know?
Guest:And then the thing that was beautiful that he said was like, we've had countless hours of amazing time.
Guest:If one hour is a setback, I'll sit with you for an hour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I seem to have been going in a way where I just, you know, I tend to, like my girlfriend's younger than me a bit.
Marc:And, you know, we've really explored, you know, both of our mental problems.
Marc:But I really fear the idea of love as being, you know, erasing me somehow.
Marc:It's a weird thing.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Erasing you.
Yeah.
Marc:Yes, because I feel like that my parents love was so consuming and needy that like I didn't like I don't have the muscle for it.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:What if it's different in this that you feel like you're, oops, that you're choosing, right?
Marc:Yeah, I can feel that.
Guest:So you're choosing to love this person.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that's present.
Marc:But they're just sort of like some things.
Marc:You know, I feel like I'm at the edge of...
Marc:Some sort of emotional catharsis most of the time.
Marc:But I'm also getting old.
Marc:And I'm also sort of at a place financially.
Marc:And I'm pretty generous.
Marc:And I know how to do the right thing and behave good and not entirely selfishly.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:It's all unfolding.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Basically, it feels sometimes like it used to feel to me like I was trying to map the perfect story.
Guest:And I don't mean necessarily like the princess, you know, but that if something went awry or like that little bump I told you about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then it's fucked.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And you can't let it go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't want to be like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think it's just a matter of taking it.
Marc:And realizing that some things are not, doesn't mean it's fucked.
Marc:It's just sort of like, all right, well, let's just process it and deal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, I really thought with Lynn that like, you know, this I'm good.
Marc:We're good for the rest of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And maybe there's still a part of me that's operating in some sort of profound grief.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know either.
Guest:I think that that's good to be open to it and aware of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think the aging thing is ever-present.
Guest:It's different for men and women.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm sure, like you're saying, you feel it in different ways.
Guest:As I continue to age, like, of course, for women my age, it's like a baby, no baby, the time in the window.
Marc:But you're kind of...
Marc:Set in that?
Guest:I froze some eggies.
Guest:I've got some eggs over on ice in Beverly Hills.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:A real rags to riches tale.
Marc:Oh, nice.
Marc:That should be a story you can tell that kid if you ever use them.
Guest:What was it like growing up in Beverly Hills?
Marc:Yeah, I'm sure you don't remember.
Marc:It was cold.
Marc:You were very small.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'd like to be open to it, but it's also not something we've really talked about.
Guest:So he also has two kids.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:From a previous marriage.
Guest:They're cutie pies.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't really have the desire to get married.
Guest:I'm not saying like I. Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's not really present.
Guest:It hasn't been present for me.
Marc:Yeah, I can't do it again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think, too, with aging-wise, even just body, face, all these things, like, I'm sure it's just different for both you and I, I imagine.
Guest:I don't want to put it on you or not, but I'm like, there are options here in L.A.
Guest:And everywhere, but, you know, the ever-present surgery.
Guest:And I personally just don't want to do that.
Guest:You look great.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:But I just mean like you're talking about aging.
Guest:And when you're in a relationship and intimacy and what that looks like.
Guest:And to me, obviously, the hottest thing is being comfortable in your skin and loving your body the way it is and being active.
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:I was like...
Guest:You look in the mirror and you go, you go, Mark, you're the shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It happens rarely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Usually it's all revolves around my body dysmorphia because my mom was like a eating disorder person.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It sucks.
Marc:Oh, it's the fucking...
Guest:But good for you for not being, you know.
Marc:I'm not scaling it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not doing the scale.
Guest:Good.
Marc:I'm not scaling yours.
Marc:I'm basing it fully on pants feel.
Guest:Yep, same.
Guest:Oh, these are a little tight.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm going to say they shrunk.
Marc:I'm just going to run a little harder.
Marc:Oh, I think we've worked it all out.
Marc:I think we did.
Guest:I'm healed.
Marc:Me too, totally.
Marc:I think I'm healed, but there's still a vague, you know, blind spot sadness.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I feel better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can relate to the vague sad spots.
Yeah.
Guest:I wanted to kind of make you seem like everything was okay, but when you said that, it really locked in.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, the kind of, it's just over there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what are you doing now?
Guest:I've been touring and... Totally new hour kind of deal?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's what we do.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And you're pretty happy?
Yeah.
Guest:I feel that.
Guest:Yeah, minus that big little duck over my shoulder.
Marc:Just keep it at bay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I get a cutie pie.
Guest:I'm touring.
Guest:I started a new podcast.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:It's called Sweethearts.
Guest:You're busy.
Guest:Yeah, I'm booked and busy.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Good talking to you.
Guest:You too.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:That was very fun.
Marc:I feel like we should be friends.
Marc:Her special If You Didn't Want Me Then is on Netflix.
Marc:Her podcast Sweethearts with Mo Welch is on all podcast platforms.
Marc:And her tour dates are available at bethstelling.com.
Marc:Hang out for a minute.
Marc:Listen, people, I don't talk about politics much on this show, but if you want to hear me go on at length about the presidential election, I did that for a bonus episode we just posted on the full Marin.
Marc:We're in this position where we just had this default situation going on.
Marc:And it felt really weird.
Marc:You know, when you're sort of faced with this cult-like excitement about a monster and they're like, well, you're a Biden guy.
Marc:And it's like, yeah, by default to a certain degree.
Marc:And I don't think the guy had, I think the administration did very well, leveled the ship.
Marc:It seems like a lot of things policy-wise went correctly.
Marc:And I had no problem with that.
Marc:And I had no problem with the idea of him, you know, just sitting there on a machine, to be honest with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in terms of actually feeling like any kind of it's not so much hope, but just the excitement of of representation.
Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, to have something happen where all of a sudden you're like, all right, well, now it's not a matter of it being a fair fight or not, but at least we have somebody who can communicate ideas, who represents something in her own being and body.
Marc:And as an individual...
Marc:can sort of bring together this whole other side of the things that represent the country we live in, the majority of it.
Marc:So it was just more of a like, holy shit, I'm excited about this because it just seems more than fortuitous that she's sort of exactly on a human level what we need as a representation of all
Marc:what this country looks like.
Marc:That's available right now for full Marin subscribers to subscribe, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast.
Marc:Here's some old guitar.
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Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey.
Guest:LaFonda.
Guest:All of them.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.