Episode 1499 - Matt B. Davis

Episode 1499 • Released December 28, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks how's it going i'm mark maron this is my podcast

00:00:18Marc:WTF.

00:00:19Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:20Marc:If you're new here, imagine there's a few people here that have never listened before and they're listening for the guest on the show.

00:00:28Marc:Perhaps you're part of the obstacle running community of

00:00:35Marc:But that is really not obstacle racing.

00:00:38Marc:Sorry.

00:00:39Marc:That's not really what brought him to the show.

00:00:42Marc:I mean, I think from his point of view, it's what brought him to the show, but it's not why I know him.

00:00:49Marc:His name is Matt B. Davis, and he was a comedian, and he's one of the founders of Obstacle Racing Media.

00:00:59Marc:He wrote a book about obstacle races and mud runs called Down and Dirty, and he hosts the Obstacle Racing Media podcast.

00:01:07Marc:And I've known him for years.

00:01:11Marc:This is a guy that used to do comedy.

00:01:14Marc:You know, he was going for it back in the day.

00:01:16Marc:He was of my second wife's generation.

00:01:19Marc:So I guess by a decade or in change younger than me.

00:01:23Marc:But he lives in Atlanta and I always see him when I when I go out there and we hang out a minute, have a meal, talk the talk a bit.

00:01:33Marc:Sober guy as well.

00:01:35Marc:But he really wanted to do the show.

00:01:37Marc:And I thought, well, this is a conversation we've only had a couple of times, really.

00:01:42Marc:The conversation with somebody who quit comedy.

00:01:46Marc:And moved on to other things.

00:01:48Marc:So that's going to happen for you.

00:01:50Marc:You will hear that.

00:01:51Marc:It's a little more complicated than that.

00:01:54Marc:I'll try to explain more in a few minutes.

00:01:58Marc:Tom Smothers died at his home in Santa Rosa, California, here in California, at age 86.

00:02:04Marc:I talked with Tom and his brother Dick in Sonoma at the end of 2021.

00:02:08Marc:That was episode 1293, which aired on January 3rd, 2022.

00:02:14Marc:You can still listen to it.

00:02:16Marc:in your free podcast feed, The Legends.

00:02:19Marc:Rest in peace, Tommy.

00:02:21Marc:It was an honor to talk to those guys.

00:02:23Marc:Also, another thing, happy birthday to Teresa Ventura from Queens.

00:02:31Marc:She's a devoted listener, and she had a really rough week.

00:02:35Marc:Have a great day tomorrow, Teresa.

00:02:37Marc:Glad to hear your cats Cookie and Sylvester are doing okay.

00:02:43Marc:Sorry for your trouble.

00:02:45Marc:I'm at Dynasty Typewriter tonight, and then I'm at Largo on Tuesday, January 9th.

00:02:50Marc:San Diego, I'm at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows.

00:02:56Marc:San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd.

00:03:00Marc:Portland, Maine, I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th.

00:03:04Marc:Medford, Massachusetts.

00:03:06Marc:Outside Boston at the Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th.

00:03:10Marc:Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th.

00:03:14Marc:Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th.

00:03:18Marc:Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd.

00:03:22Marc:And I'll be in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moontower Comedy Festival.

00:03:29Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets.

00:03:34Marc:So some of you know I went out to...

00:03:36Marc:New Mexico to see my father, Dr. Barry Marin and his wife, Rosie.

00:03:44Marc:And we had some quality time.

00:03:45Marc:Apparently I get the good, I get the good behavior.

00:03:51Marc:That's, that's where he's at in his mental ailment is that when I show up, he does everything he can from the deepest part of him to behave like there's nothing wrong with him and

00:04:04Marc:But I know there is.

00:04:05Marc:But it's nice.

00:04:06Marc:It's not it fools me.

00:04:07Marc:It fools me into thinking like he's doing OK, which he is.

00:04:10Marc:And it's good to see him.

00:04:12Marc:And again, always grateful that Rosie is taking care of him.

00:04:16Marc:But, you know, it's it's an interesting thing that that I realize.

00:04:20Marc:And and it's something that I don't know, maybe.

00:04:26Marc:Many of you have heard me talk about, you know, where I sort of have a story about why I'm funny and why I chose stand-up.

00:04:37Marc:And one of the reasons I cite is my dad was a depressive, bipolar-ish kind of guy.

00:04:43Marc:And he'd go through lengthy periods of depression.

00:04:47Marc:And my mother would say to me, you know, go upstairs and make them laugh.

00:04:50Marc:You're the only one who can.

00:04:51Marc:Ooh, tough crowd.

00:04:53Marc:Tough crowd, I tell you.

00:04:54Marc:I tell you, tough crowd.

00:04:56Marc:Come on, where's my Rodney?

00:04:58Marc:Oh, what is this?

00:04:59Marc:Oh, let me tell you.

00:05:00Marc:Tough crowd.

00:05:01Marc:All right, so I can't find my Rodney.

00:05:03Marc:But...

00:05:05Marc:But that's a story I tell.

00:05:06Marc:And that, in my mind, is a reality.

00:05:09Marc:Now, what's happening now is, you know, as he drifts mentally and is confused and lethargic to a degree, not motivated, doesn't want to engage in life much, although Rosie tries to get him to, is that, you know, I think...

00:05:27Marc:What's happening is that, like, when I come out, it energizes him.

00:05:31Marc:And I think she appreciates that.

00:05:34Marc:So, you know, I think that...

00:05:38Marc:I'm kind of in the same position again.

00:05:40Marc:I think I got to start talking to him more just so her life isn't hell and that his life is a little better.

00:05:47Marc:I guess a lot of people after a certain age, when their parents get to a certain age, probably reach out at least once a day, once every other day.

00:05:56Marc:I mean, how hard is it?

00:05:58Marc:We'll see.

00:05:59Marc:But I'm going to try to be the medicine for my father's diminishing will to engage in the world.

00:06:07Marc:And I guess this is, you know, I'm 60.

00:06:11Marc:I'm not 20.

00:06:12Marc:I'm not 15.

00:06:14Marc:I mean, this is sort of a codependent thing.

00:06:17Marc:It's not my responsibility necessarily.

00:06:20Marc:But is it an easy thing for me to check in with the old man and turn his day around before he drifts away?

00:06:27Marc:No, it's not.

00:06:28Marc:Can I go out there a little more?

00:06:30Marc:Sure.

00:06:30Marc:And is it emotionally difficult?

00:06:33Marc:important for me to spend time with him in his decline?

00:06:37Marc:I would say yes, because what's left of him, what's left of his mind and his ego is essentially that.

00:06:45Marc:And it's all very familiar to me.

00:06:46Marc:You know, he's got a lot of old memories.

00:06:47Marc:The memories are fragmented.

00:06:49Marc:It's, again, it's stuff that was recent that goes away quicker.

00:06:53Marc:And sometimes he gets confused about daily tasks.

00:06:56Marc:But what's left of

00:06:59Marc:of my dad in terms of who he is is pretty consistent and i think i might have forgotten it had i not spend this time with him like for example i'll i'll give you some quotes like he's like i'm i'm bored i'm bored all the time

00:07:15Marc:And I said, well, what do you want to do?

00:07:17Marc:He's like, nothing.

00:07:18Marc:I'm like, well, that's a tricky position to be in.

00:07:21Marc:And then there's other times where he's like, you know, I, you know, I can, uh, you know, I, I dare, you know, somebody to mug me.

00:07:27Marc:I'm going to, if they try to mug me, I'm going to grab their hair.

00:07:31Marc:That was an interesting one.

00:07:32Marc:Usually it's guns or knives.

00:07:34Marc:So you can talk about stabbing people and shooting people, but he's always had this bravado.

00:07:38Marc:He always likes to be provocative, you know?

00:07:41Marc:And yeah,

00:07:42Marc:That's there.

00:07:42Marc:All that's in place.

00:07:44Marc:The unboard.

00:07:44Marc:What do you want to do?

00:07:45Marc:Nothing.

00:07:46Marc:That's good.

00:07:47Marc:It's good to know that because, you know, who doesn't have that?

00:07:50Marc:A little of that.

00:07:51Marc:And also murderous rage.

00:07:53Marc:Who doesn't have that?

00:07:54Marc:I mean, it's more murderous rage fantasies.

00:07:56Marc:Always has been.

00:07:57Marc:Who doesn't have that?

00:07:58Marc:But it's good to check in with that.

00:08:00Marc:But I think...

00:08:01Marc:The one that that really struck me and I think it's very consistent with him is, you know, we go to Rosie's family's Christmas party and there's a lot of people there in her family, probably about 40, 45 or maybe.

00:08:16Marc:Yeah, that seems about right.

00:08:17Marc:Maybe maybe 30 to 40.

00:08:19Marc:I don't know.

00:08:20Marc:But after the party or towards the end of it, there's a big group picture.

00:08:24Marc:Right.

00:08:25Marc:And everybody has to go out in the backyard.

00:08:27Marc:It was chilly.

00:08:27Marc:But and then somebody, Rosie, got up on a balcony above and takes this big group picture.

00:08:32Marc:My dad, I was walking out.

00:08:34Marc:My dad's just sitting by himself in the room with all the tables.

00:08:38Marc:And I'm like, what are you doing?

00:08:39Marc:He's like, I'm sitting here.

00:08:40Marc:And I'm like, well, you want to come out for the picture?

00:08:42Marc:He goes, no.

00:08:44Marc:And I go, why not?

00:08:45Marc:And he said, who gives a fuck?

00:08:47Marc:And I'm like, hey, that's my dad.

00:08:49Marc:Who gives a fuck, Marin?

00:08:52Marc:There he is.

00:08:53Marc:Fuck that guy, Marin.

00:08:55Marc:Who gives a fuck, Marin?

00:08:56Marc:That's bullshit, Marin.

00:08:58Marc:Those are my dad's catchphrases.

00:09:01Marc:They're all still there, I'm happy to say, this Christmas season.

00:09:06Marc:They're all still there.

00:09:09Marc:All right, so listen, Matt B. Davis, old friend of mine, and this conversation got a little intense because, you know, we have a long history, and there's always been something that bothered me about our friendship and about him.

00:09:30Marc:And this is just one of those situations where we don't do it much on the show, but it's here and it's now.

00:09:38Marc:And he wanted to do this because he wanted to promote his documentary, which is called The World's Toughest Mudder, The Hardest 100 Mile Race, which I watched.

00:09:52Marc:And without any context of obstacle racing, I now know what it is.

00:09:57Marc:Um...

00:09:59Marc:But I was like, all right.

00:10:01Marc:So I thought that there was a deeper conversation to have about leaving comedy, about friendship, about, you know, promotion in a way.

00:10:11Marc:But ultimately, you know, some of the stuff that always bothered me about him, you know, I called him on it.

00:10:19Marc:And and he called me on a little bit as well.

00:10:24Marc:So this is me and Matt.

00:10:27Marc:He came out from Atlanta to see me when I was performing in St.

00:10:30Marc:Louis and we recorded it in my hotel.

00:10:33Marc:This is me and Matt B. Davis in St.

00:10:37Marc:Louis.

00:10:37Guest:Not that that's important, but this is St.

00:10:39Guest:Louis.

00:10:39Guest:If you can hear it, maybe hear the room.

00:10:41Guest:It's St.

00:10:42Guest:Louis.

00:10:44Guest:OK.

00:10:46Marc:So you made the trip.

00:10:55Marc:That's a big deal.

00:10:58Marc:You flew from Atlanta to St.

00:11:02Marc:Louis to be on this show.

00:11:05Guest:Well, you know this thought I had?

00:11:08Guest:Oh, no.

00:11:09Guest:I said to my wife, Stacey, that you know.

00:11:12Guest:I said, you know, in terms of like reaching an audience, it's kind of the equivalent of doing the late night shows in the old days.

00:11:20Guest:Maybe.

00:11:21Guest:In terms of like reaching a number of people that I like.

00:11:25Guest:It's the closest I'll get to The Tonight Show.

00:11:27Guest:How about that?

00:11:27Guest:Is being on this show, the currently 28th most popular comedy podcast, if you believe in Apple and all that stuff.

00:11:34Guest:You looked it up?

00:11:35Guest:I was just for the fuck of it.

00:11:36Guest:I was like, yeah.

00:11:37Guest:That's amazing that it's still that high.

00:11:39Guest:No, that's what I was like.

00:11:41Guest:It's like it's this many years in, and there's so many fucking podcasts.

00:11:47Marc:Well, there is a fairly efficient rating system.

00:11:50Marc:It's not Apple.

00:11:51Marc:But the Edson ratings, which kind of really somehow quantify...

00:11:57Marc:active listeners and we're still up around 22 to 24 i mean we're up there out of all of them it's great well right and half the shows that are above you won't be around in a few years so or they're dug in you know what i mean some of them are just big shows what are you gonna do

00:12:13Guest:Well, right, but in terms of like, I think you're still, Maren is still like, you could just say to someone casually that you know listens to anything related to comedy, pop culture, or podcast, you could say, oh, I was listening on Maren the other day, and they wouldn't go, what, who?

00:12:28Marc:Well, I don't know.

00:12:29Marc:I would say there's fairly large...

00:12:31Marc:Part of the population that would say that, but I'll take it.

00:12:35Marc:How about people that I know?

00:12:36Marc:There you go.

00:12:37Marc:That's fine.

00:12:37Marc:People in my immediate sphere.

00:12:39Marc:But let me ask you something.

00:12:40Guest:So like, and I'm not being a glaber condescending.

00:12:43Guest:You are 100% about to be condescending to me, which we're going to talk about, by the way.

00:12:47Marc:I have no problem talking about whatever you think I am, and then I'll share your particular problem that I also register.

00:12:57Marc:Okay.

00:12:58Marc:Do you want to start with that?

00:12:59Marc:No.

00:13:00Marc:I just want to know.

00:13:03Marc:So if you were to go on The Tonight Show, are we plugging the doc?

00:13:09No.

00:13:10Guest:Oh, I just mean in terms of like... In general.

00:13:14Guest:Yeah, just like... I never got to do Jay or Johnny, and so this is the closest I'll come to being on a mainstream television program.

00:13:24Marc:Okay, because I...

00:13:25Marc:I watched the doc.

00:13:26Marc:Okay.

00:13:27Marc:And we don't need to start there.

00:13:28Marc:I'd rather go back.

00:13:30Marc:Right.

00:13:30Marc:But I will say this.

00:13:33Marc:Did you get any, like, did you show some people and say, what do you think?

00:13:38Marc:Before you put it on YouTube?

00:13:40Marc:Wow.

00:13:41Marc:Is that, is, wow.

00:13:45Marc:Man.

00:13:47Marc:Not for the reasons you think.

00:13:48Marc:I'm not saying it's a bad doc.

00:13:49Marc:I mean, it was good.

00:13:50Marc:It looked good.

00:13:51Marc:Soundtrack was good.

00:13:53Marc:But I, as a person who doesn't know about that world, I had questions.

00:14:01Marc:Let's save those.

00:14:02Marc:Sure.

00:14:03Marc:So you never did The Tonight Show or the other ones because... Let's be honest.

00:14:11Marc:I'm trying to remember...

00:14:13Marc:How long did you actually do stand-up?

00:14:15Marc:One of the reasons you're here is it's very... I've been trying to find somebody who quit or not so much quit but did something else.

00:14:25Marc:Right.

00:14:26Marc:You know, for a long time.

00:14:27Marc:Right.

00:14:28Marc:I don't think I've talked to anybody.

00:14:29Marc:I tried once with Billy Braver and it turns out he wanted to get back in.

00:14:32Yeah.

00:14:32Guest:Yeah, I definitely do not want to get back in.

00:14:34Guest:So let's call it 10 years.

00:14:36Guest:Let's call it 96 to 06.

00:14:37Marc:So you were in it doing stand-up for 10 years.

00:14:40Guest:Yes.

00:14:40Guest:And you knew me right in the heart of me really caring and at one point in my life thinking that's all that was going to happen.

00:14:48Guest:I was going to get on...

00:14:50Guest:johnny carson or dot obviously johnny was gone but you know i mean like yeah we were all gunning for the same thing right and you were kind enough to like you know as our paths crossed you were kind enough to give me time like when i saw you in florida and some other random place yeah i mean right oh my god i'm trying to put it all together but you didn't you grew up where like somewhere weird right so i was born in boston but i grew up in atlanta oh so you actually went home

00:15:14Guest:Well, I moved, when I started comedy, I started in Boston in 96, which is why I always love listening to your Boston comic shows.

00:15:21Marc:In 96?

00:15:23Marc:Right.

00:15:23Marc:So what was that, the Burr period, the Patrice period?

00:15:26Guest:So those guys were already in New York.

00:15:28Guest:Really?

00:15:28Guest:I came up with Gary.

00:15:29Guest:Gary Goldman was probably like my only compatriot that you would know would be Gary.

00:15:33Marc:I just talked to him two days ago.

00:15:35Marc:I just saw him the day before yesterday.

00:15:36Marc:Right.

00:15:37Marc:Because he's back around.

00:15:39Marc:And I hadn't talked to him in a long time, not since the psych ward.

00:15:43Marc:And I...

00:15:44Guest:And I watched him as a young comic in Boston.

00:15:48Guest:Yeah.

00:15:48Guest:And was like, this guy is doing it right.

00:15:51Guest:Right.

00:15:51Guest:He's clean.

00:15:52Guest:Right.

00:15:53Guest:Yeah.

00:15:53Guest:He's like, people like him.

00:15:55Guest:He's not an asshole to people.

00:15:57Guest:Yeah.

00:15:57Guest:And he works his ass off.

00:15:58Guest:Yeah.

00:15:59Guest:So I'm like, he's going to make it.

00:16:01Guest:He's one of the guys that's going to make it.

00:16:02Guest:That was my thought.

00:16:03Guest:Who else was there?

00:16:04Guest:So the only other people that I felt that strongly about were one guy named Dwayne Perkins.

00:16:10Guest:I know Dwayne.

00:16:11Guest:Okay, who's still doing stand-up.

00:16:12Guest:And this guy, Chris McGuire, who I think wrote on a bunch of shows but never quite.

00:16:15Guest:I knew Chris McGuire.

00:16:17Guest:But if I knew that Dwayne and Gary were super clean and worked there, why didn't I just do that?

00:16:22Guest:Like, I should have followed what I knew was good.

00:16:24Marc:Well, did you do Dick Doherty gigs?

00:16:27Marc:Yeah, of course.

00:16:28Marc:Okay, I didn't realize that you had this background.

00:16:30Marc:So you knew Dick?

00:16:33Guest:We've had some of these conversations, but you've forgotten over the years.

00:16:36Marc:It's fine.

00:16:36Guest:What do you mean?

00:16:37Guest:I mean, of course I did.

00:16:38Guest:But so you're in Boston for how many years?

00:16:40Guest:So Boston from 96 to 99.

00:16:41Guest:Oh, so you're doing those one-nighters?

00:16:44Guest:Doing the one-nighters out in the middle of like, again.

00:16:47Guest:Opening for who?

00:16:48Guest:Oh, just name a Boston comic.

00:16:50Guest:Mike McDonald?

00:16:52Guest:Maybe not.

00:16:52Guest:Maybe once.

00:16:53Guest:George McDonald.

00:16:54Guest:Maybe once.

00:16:55Guest:Don Gavin.

00:16:56Guest:Don Gavin.

00:16:57Guest:Joe Yannetty.

00:16:58Guest:Joe Yannetty.

00:16:59Guest:Yeah.

00:17:00Guest:Kevin Knox.

00:17:01Guest:Knoxy, RIP.

00:17:02Guest:Chance Langton, maybe RIP.

00:17:04Marc:Chance.

00:17:04Guest:Is Chance still alive?

00:17:05Marc:Who the fuck knows, man?

00:17:07Marc:DJ Hazard.

00:17:08Marc:DJ was great.

00:17:10Marc:And his Subaru Brat.

00:17:12Marc:He drove around that little Subaru Brat.

00:17:14Guest:Giant man.

00:17:14Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:17:15Guest:I did all that.

00:17:16Guest:All those.

00:17:16Guest:Like, again, whenever you talk to the Boston comics, I mean, it's funny you mentioned Burr.

00:17:22Guest:I knew he was good, but if you had said to me five years ago or 10 years ago, he's going to be the guy, I would have been like, really?

00:17:29Marc:Well, he's one of those guys that came up quick, and then he got big opportunities, and he wasn't quite ready for them, and then went back to the drawing board and just focused on comedy and became the guy he is now.

00:17:40Marc:Yeah.

00:17:41Marc:Found his voice.

00:17:42Marc:He's upset about things, Bill.

00:17:44Marc:A few things, yes.

00:17:46Marc:He's the loud complainer.

00:17:50Guest:Is that what you see him as, the loud complainer?

00:17:53Marc:You were a loud complainer.

00:17:55Marc:Not really.

00:17:56Marc:I was always sort of a little more introspective, and it was not relatable complaining.

00:18:03Marc:It was very heady.

00:18:04Marc:I think Bill has found a world where he's a crank.

00:18:07Marc:He's a very animated, manic crank.

00:18:11Marc:And he's got problems with his wife, with the kids, with the car, with the bank.

00:18:18Marc:But it's a specific type of voice.

00:18:20Marc:Not everybody does it well.

00:18:21Marc:There's not that many cranks around that are funny at any given time.

00:18:26Guest:That know how to do it.

00:18:27Guest:Yeah.

00:18:28Guest:That know how to do it.

00:18:29Marc:Yeah.

00:18:29Marc:It was black as a crank.

00:18:31Marc:There's not that many.

00:18:32Marc:Legendary crank, Louis Black.

00:18:34Marc:Great.

00:18:35Marc:Open for him once in Atlanta.

00:18:36Marc:But not offstage.

00:18:38Marc:Offstage, very funny guy, sweet guy.

00:18:40Marc:Right.

00:18:40Marc:Not that cranky.

00:18:41Marc:Right.

00:18:42Marc:So you're doing it.

00:18:42Marc:You're doing the one-nighters.

00:18:43Marc:You're drinking.

00:18:45Guest:Yes.

00:18:46Guest:But not on stage, because I always thought that was like cheating, right?

00:18:50Guest:Like, dude, you should go on.

00:18:51Guest:I did a couple of nights get hammered.

00:18:52Guest:Smoking.

00:18:53Guest:I mean, everybody.

00:18:55Guest:Cigarettes?

00:18:56Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:18:57Guest:No, that, of course.

00:18:57Guest:Sure.

00:18:58Guest:But it was like, I was like, I'm not gonna drink on stage, because that's like chickening out.

00:19:02Guest:I need to go up and face the crowd.

00:19:04Guest:You didn't drink before?

00:19:05Guest:No.

00:19:06Guest:I do remember one specific set doing one of Dick's rooms in Worcester.

00:19:10Guest:Yeah.

00:19:10Guest:And between the first and second show, it was me and John David.

00:19:13Guest:And John David and I got plastered.

00:19:15Guest:And then I barely remember doing the second show.

00:19:18Guest:Oh, good.

00:19:18Guest:But that's the beauty of starting in a town like Boston.

00:19:21Guest:You can go bomb at a bar in the middle of nowhere.

00:19:25Marc:But they'll throw you 50 bucks, which is more than what people can get in a lot of cities.

00:19:29Marc:Sure.

00:19:29Marc:Sometimes you have to drive the headliner.

00:19:31Marc:You drive down.

00:19:32Marc:It's usually anywhere from 30 miles to 150.

00:19:35Marc:Right.

00:19:36Marc:So you're running around Boston.

00:19:38Guest:Yes.

00:19:39Guest:And drinking a lot and trying to do the comedy.

00:19:41Marc:But you had a good half hour to open, right?

00:19:43Marc:No.

00:19:43Guest:But you had a half hour.

00:19:46Guest:I mean, looking back, Mark, I've had plenty of time to reflect.

00:19:50Guest:I never worked nearly as hard as I should have.

00:19:53Huh.

00:19:53Guest:How so?

00:19:54Guest:Not even close.

00:19:55Guest:What do you mean?

00:19:55Guest:What do you think you need to be doing?

00:19:56Marc:Because I've had two businesses since.

00:19:58Marc:I've had a staffing company.

00:19:59Marc:I know, but comedy is like a solitary event.

00:20:02Marc:What does work look like to you as a comic?

00:20:04Marc:What were you not doing?

00:20:05Marc:Because, I mean, I think that too, but eventually you figure out that I just do it the way I do it.

00:20:10Guest:No, no, no.

00:20:11Guest:I don't think I need to be Jerry Seinfeld and crafting jokes for an hour.

00:20:14Guest:I just mean that if you looked at what did work for me in Boston, which is I was hustling and I was a door guy at Knicks.

00:20:20Guest:You and I bonded over the door guy thing.

00:20:23Guest:All that stuff.

00:20:23Guest:You know, what's his name?

00:20:24Guest:Dominic died.

00:20:25Guest:Dominic who?

00:20:26Guest:The guy who ran Knicks downtown.

00:20:28Guest:I worked for his son and opened a comedy club.

00:20:31Guest:You worked for Jackie Gateman's son?

00:20:33Marc:Yes.

00:20:33Marc:Billy.

00:20:34Marc:There you go.

00:20:35Guest:In Old Orchard Beach, Maine.

00:20:36Marc:Yeah.

00:20:37Guest:And I opened a club there and it was the greatest summer of my life.

00:20:39Guest:It was the beginning of the end of my alcoholism, if you want to get to that.

00:20:41Guest:But like.

00:20:41Marc:Wait, so you're doing one-nighters, you're working at Knicks, doing little sets there with the big guys.

00:20:48Marc:Right.

00:20:48Marc:And then Bobby Gateman?

00:20:50Marc:Billy.

00:20:51Marc:Billy Gateman wants to open a room in Maine.

00:20:53Marc:Right.

00:20:54Guest:A full club or a room?

00:20:55Guest:Just a room.

00:20:55Guest:Okay.

00:20:56Guest:But he's like, do you want to do it?

00:20:59Guest:Yeah.

00:20:59Guest:And so he gives me a little sound system and a few hundred bucks and I go up there and I open the room.

00:21:04Guest:Now you're running a one nighter.

00:21:06Guest:I'm running a one nighter, but like I get to be like the king of the shit beach town because like.

00:21:11Guest:And you're hosting.

00:21:12Guest:Yeah.

00:21:13Guest:And like all the comics are coming up.

00:21:14Guest:Yeah.

00:21:15Guest:And like, you know, I'm just doing the, you know what I mean?

00:21:18Guest:I'm like, this is the greatest thing in the world.

00:21:19Guest:Like there's free beer for me now.

00:21:20Guest:Yeah.

00:21:21Marc:That's interesting though, because like it puts you in the producer's seat.

00:21:24Marc:I would never have taken that job.

00:21:26Marc:It was just like, because.

00:21:27Marc:All I had to do was turn the mic on though.

00:21:29Guest:i know but you had this responsibility dude listen i i don't know how to have a good time though so we're different people this is a very fond memory i have i had to call and you like you order the phone line and you order the beer and yeah i i got to hire the waitresses i mean you can imagine how like what a you at that time right hiring waitress exactly okay the the beer truck showed up right budweiser truck showed up and the doors opened yeah and the guy's like

00:21:54Guest:It was like, ah, like, oh, my God.

00:21:56Guest:Yeah.

00:21:57Guest:I'm 26 years old.

00:21:58Guest:Yeah.

00:21:58Guest:And this is my life now.

00:21:59Guest:Right.

00:22:00Guest:I'm never going to leave Maine.

00:22:01Guest:I'm running a comedy club.

00:22:02Guest:And two months later, he was like, hey, why don't you come back down?

00:22:05Guest:Oh, yeah, that was it.

00:22:06Guest:And then they owed me money, and he didn't pay it.

00:22:09Guest:And I ended up getting sort of in a fight with him.

00:22:11Guest:It was weird.

00:22:12Guest:Going to fight with those guys.

00:22:14Guest:No, no, no.

00:22:14Guest:My dad actually made a phone call because I think my dad knew some of the- What's your dad do?

00:22:18Guest:Well, my dad's just been in Boston a long time.

00:22:20Guest:What's his job?

00:22:22Guest:My dad's like a hustler.

00:22:24Guest:He's kind of like me.

00:22:25Guest:He's never had a real job.

00:22:26Guest:Salesman, cab driver.

00:22:28Guest:But did he know the nature of Knicks?

00:22:30Guest:Yeah.

00:22:30Guest:I'm saying that he said, when the shit went down with me and Billy, we were worried.

00:22:36Guest:And he made some calls to people, and they said, don't worry about it, Joe.

00:22:39Guest:It's good.

00:22:40Guest:Oh, really?

00:22:40Marc:It's all water to the beach.

00:22:41Marc:So he was connected enough to get you off the hook?

00:22:44Guest:Well, it wasn't that he could get me off the hook.

00:22:47Guest:Is that...

00:22:48Guest:It wasn't something to worry about.

00:22:49Guest:If I had ripped the guy off, but I didn't.

00:22:51Guest:Did you get your money?

00:22:52Guest:He owed me.

00:22:52Guest:No, I was owed 300 bucks, which at the time is like a lot when you're 20.

00:22:56Guest:Sure.

00:22:57Guest:And all the nice waitresses and a friend of mine helped run the door.

00:23:01Guest:They all owed money.

00:23:02Guest:I said, what do you want me to do?

00:23:04Marc:Wow, you got screwed, huh?

00:23:05Marc:Yes.

00:23:06Marc:And you were up against the power of whatever Nix is involved with.

00:23:11Marc:Whatever.

00:23:11Marc:Yeah.

00:23:12Marc:No, believe me, I have a lot of memories from that.

00:23:15Marc:All right, so how bad did the drinking get up there?

00:23:18Guest:So, yeah, so I had a car get stolen by these two girls that I tried to hook up with.

00:23:24Guest:I woke up, my car was gone.

00:23:26Guest:This is Old Orchard Beach, Maine.

00:23:28Guest:Really?

00:23:28Guest:I woke up, my car's gone, and I talked to the cops.

00:23:32Guest:They're like, yeah, we found it.

00:23:33Guest:And I'm like, huh?

00:23:34Guest:They're like, they torched it.

00:23:36Guest:They torched it?

00:23:37Guest:That's exactly what I said, just like that.

00:23:39Guest:And then he said, they torched it.

00:23:41Guest:And I said, they torched it?

00:23:44Guest:What did you do?

00:23:45Guest:To deserve that, Matt.

00:23:48Guest:They thought it would be funny to like- Torture car?

00:23:52Guest:To fuck around with the guy.

00:23:54Guest:So this is what happened.

00:23:55Guest:I called a friend of mine who's a lawyer, right?

00:23:57Guest:This is a great life lesson for everybody listening, Mark.

00:24:01Guest:Yeah.

00:24:01Guest:I was like, dude, the fucking cops, I think they know who did it, but they won't tell me.

00:24:07Guest:And they're like, Matt, listen, whatever those girls and the guys they run with that burn your car like, even if they're trash, you're the worst trash of all, Matt, because you don't belong there.

00:24:15Guest:Right.

00:24:17Guest:I was like, you're right.

00:24:19Guest:Right.

00:24:20Guest:There goes your big shit of the beach town.

00:24:22Guest:Exactly.

00:24:23Guest:You don't belong there.

00:24:26Guest:You have this idea of me being some sort of cocky or overly confident, so apparently that rubs people somewhat the wrong way.

00:24:34Marc:I would imagine your entire life.

00:24:37Marc:I have a hard time believing this is the one time where that's a working example of that.

00:24:49Guest:It's so funny that you would say that, though, Mark.

00:24:54Guest:You spent the whole first five years.

00:24:56Guest:I love people the wrong way a different way.

00:24:58Guest:The first five years of your show is apologizing to people.

00:25:00Guest:Why is that?

00:25:01Marc:It wasn't because I was cocky.

00:25:02Marc:It was because I was a dick.

00:25:04Marc:Okay, what's the difference?

00:25:05Marc:Well, sometimes cocky is you think you're having a good time.

00:25:09Marc:Like, you just think you're a big deal.

00:25:11Marc:I mean, that's different.

00:25:12Marc:I didn't think that.

00:25:14Marc:I was just sort of intense and a little angry.

00:25:17Marc:And, you know, I would say things that were hurtful.

00:25:19Marc:It was not, you know, I would, it was not, it wasn't like I'm a big shit.

00:25:26Marc:You know what I mean?

00:25:27Marc:I wasn't a swinging dick or anything.

00:25:29Marc:But it's the same exact.

00:25:31Marc:It may come from the same place, but I was a different kind of.

00:25:33Guest:Massive insecurity.

00:25:34Marc:Yeah, but all that.

00:25:35Guest:Please like me, blah, blah, blah.

00:25:36Guest:I don't know if it was Please Like Me.

00:25:38Marc:I think it was really preemptively... I don't know.

00:25:41Guest:I was going to say this, but I have to say this now.

00:25:43Guest:God damn it, because now we're here.

00:25:45Guest:When I listen to you on the show, like when you're doing your intros, and when you talk to most people, you're like really sweet.

00:25:55Guest:I am that way.

00:25:55Guest:You're endearing.

00:25:56Guest:You're empathetic.

00:25:57Guest:Every text I ever send you is, fuck you, what do you want?

00:26:01Guest:I have to have boundaries with certain people.

00:26:05Guest:But how is that a boundary?

00:26:07Guest:It sounds like a very aggressive boundary to me.

00:26:11Guest:Like, we can talk about what happened with the whole did you watch the movie yet?

00:26:14Guest:That's one thing.

00:26:14Guest:I'm just saying in life, if I go, hey, Mark, blah, blah, blah, it's always this curt, angry fucking text back.

00:26:20Guest:Always.

00:26:21Always.

00:26:21Guest:Yeah.

00:26:22Marc:I do that with a couple people.

00:26:24Marc:Okay.

00:26:25Marc:So why?

00:26:26Marc:Because there is this part of you.

00:26:28Marc:Maybe we're different kinds of dicks.

00:26:30Marc:Maybe we are two sides of the same coin.

00:26:33Marc:But I always sense a kind of like totally a little bit entitled.

00:26:41Marc:And a little bit sort of like dismissive on your part.

00:26:48Marc:Just sort of like, yeah, yeah, it's great, but I'm doing my thing.

00:26:51Marc:Like I always felt that there was this, it's the same cockiness, but it's a little different.

00:26:55Marc:And as time went on, I'm like...

00:26:57Marc:Who the fuck does this guy think he is?

00:26:59Marc:Even though I know you and we've had some very good conversations, there's still this part of you that you won't laugh at certain times just to, you know, just to, you know, kind of hold your posture.

00:27:09Marc:This is just my sense of it.

00:27:10Guest:So, you know, I think I would not laugh at something you said just to like have something on you.

00:27:17Marc:Well, I think it's instinctual.

00:27:20Marc:I don't think it's just me.

00:27:21Marc:But you're asking my opinion.

00:27:24Marc:So I consider you a friend, and I think we've had some moments where we've helped each other out, sobriety-wise and otherwise.

00:27:31Marc:But there is something about you that I just want to be a little dickish.

00:27:35Marc:okay what am i supposed to be doing could you stop that maybe i guess could you be the sweet engaging uh i'm doing it right now no i know you are and this in itself is a texting is not a great way to judge somebody once you judge on the time that i sat you down in a fucking hotel room and you told me your goddamn horrible situation that you couldn't get out of and i gave you some fairly sobering reasonable advice which you did it was a hell of a gamble but there was no other way out

00:28:02Marc:but you were more than willing to be sort of like, this is my life now.

00:28:05Marc:So like, you know, I mean, why don't you judge me on that and not on texts?

00:28:10Marc:That's okay.

00:28:13Marc:I'm not great with the texting and the movie thing.

00:28:15Marc:Like I was gonna watch the movie.

00:28:17Marc:There was no way I was gonna interview you

00:28:19Marc:and not watch it.

00:28:19Guest:But I didn't think you treated this the same way.

00:28:22Guest:When you said, Matt, I know how to do this, I honestly didn't... Because the texts are so dismissive, I thought, well, he doesn't... I didn't think you put it on that level of like, well, of course I'm going to.

00:28:32Marc:What do you think?

00:28:32Marc:I do this in my job.

00:28:34Marc:I know it's your job, but I... So whose problem was that?

00:28:36Marc:Why is that my problem that you didn't think...

00:28:38Guest:When someone says to you, listener, when you're texting someone and they said they're going to do something and they said, yeah, I'll get to it.

00:28:46Guest:Yeah.

00:28:47Guest:Right.

00:28:47Guest:Which is fine.

00:28:48Guest:Yeah.

00:28:48Guest:But then they haven't said it.

00:28:51Guest:And so then you're going to see them the next day.

00:28:53Guest:Yeah.

00:28:53Guest:And instead of saying, yeah, Matt, I'll watch it on the plane or I'll watch it before I see you.

00:28:56Guest:You're just like, yeah, I'll get to it.

00:28:58Guest:And I was like, well, now does he just mean ever in life?

00:29:01Guest:Because I'm seeing him in 24 hours.

00:29:02Marc:I'm sorry.

00:29:03Marc:I'm sorry.

00:29:03Marc:I didn't really flesh that out for you.

00:29:06Guest:Mark.

00:29:07Guest:Yes.

00:29:09Guest:Just because you don't get carte blanche of, I was really good to you in a hotel room five years ago, so now I can be a dick on text all the time.

00:29:17Guest:But it's not just that hotel room.

00:29:19Marc:Every time I come to Atlanta, we hang out.

00:29:21Marc:I know.

00:29:22Marc:What do you want from me on text?

00:29:23Marc:A novel?

00:29:25Marc:Don't be a dick.

00:29:26Marc:I wasn't being a dick.

00:29:27Marc:I clarified it.

00:29:29Guest:Like I said, if I ever...

00:29:32Guest:Listen, Mark.

00:29:34Guest:Let's just break it down for the audience.

00:29:36Guest:Let's just be real here.

00:29:37Guest:You can just talk to me.

00:29:39Guest:The audience is listening.

00:29:40Guest:You don't need to talk to them.

00:29:41Guest:They're here.

00:29:45Guest:Uh, it's when you have a relationship with someone who's relatively famous, right?

00:29:49Guest:And I have two friends that I would consider relatively famous.

00:29:51Guest:Who's the other one?

00:29:52Guest:You are the other one.

00:29:53Guest:Rain is the other one.

00:29:54Guest:Okay.

00:29:54Guest:Rainn Wilson.

00:29:55Guest:I always like, it's hard not to think about.

00:29:58Guest:Does he think I want something?

00:30:00Guest:Does he think whatever?

00:30:01Guest:In this case, you definitely wanted something.

00:30:03Guest:Yeah.

00:30:03Guest:Right, but I'm just saying in life.

00:30:05Guest:So if you do a great job with whomever, and I go, hey man, great job with Maria Bamford, or whatever, and then I engage you in some other question after that, because I don't want to bother you, because I know everybody fucking asks you for everything, including wanting to be on your show, and so I'm always, I feel like a little tentative, and then I get fucking bitten, and I'm like, yeah, why don't I?

00:30:23Guest:Don't be so sensitive, first of all.

00:30:25Marc:Second of all,

00:30:26Guest:Don't be so sensitive.

00:30:29Marc:Well, you can be sensitive, but you've got... Mark Barron just said, don't be so sensitive.

00:30:35Marc:But look, what I'm trying to tell you is there's no indication from any exchange we've ever had that we're not friends.

00:30:41Marc:I'm not that famous.

00:30:42Marc:I've never dismissed you.

00:30:44Marc:I've never not taken a text.

00:30:45Marc:If you called me, I would take the call.

00:30:47Marc:If you needed help, I would give you help.

00:30:49Marc:And see, my assumption is that there's some part of you, like I've been your friend through...

00:30:55Marc:You quitting comedy and then starting up the event business.

00:31:00Marc:And then you did this other thing.

00:31:02Marc:Look, I mean, just because we don't talk to each other all the time, there's some friends that I kind of poke at.

00:31:07Marc:And I'm sorry that you took it so hard.

00:31:09Marc:I'll be a little more sensitive to your needs.

00:31:12Marc:But see, now I know what's coming.

00:31:13Guest:What?

00:31:13Guest:The next time I text you.

00:31:15Guest:You're going to say something and then be like, was that nice enough?

00:31:18Guest:Are you okay, Matt?

00:31:19Guest:That's right.

00:31:20Guest:I'll take that.

00:31:20Guest:I'll take that over Dick, Mark, Dick, Kurt, Mark.

00:31:24Marc:But Kurt is you reading into text.

00:31:27Marc:I don't know how I'm like that with a lot of people.

00:31:29Marc:And I know, you know, the words might be a little different, but it seems to be that people that I feel like I need to maintain some sort of boundaries because of my own sensitivity.

00:31:38Marc:I'm a little like that.

00:31:39Marc:Okay.

00:31:40Marc:All right.

00:31:40Marc:Okay.

00:31:41Marc:Jesus Christ.

00:31:42Marc:All right.

00:31:42Marc:So your car gets torched.

00:31:45Yeah.

00:31:45Marc:And this is the sober moment?

00:31:47Guest:Well, it's the beginning of the end of life.

00:31:50Guest:Life is not going well for me.

00:31:53Guest:Like we say, you don't get to the rooms in a winning streak.

00:31:55Guest:When your car gets torched by these two girls and their redneck friends.

00:31:59Marc:Were you gunning for a threesome?

00:32:01Guest:Yes.

00:32:03Marc:Okay.

00:32:07Marc:But that's not why.

00:32:08Marc:Well, I don't know.

00:32:09Marc:Maybe.

00:32:11Guest:I don't want to get into the details.

00:32:14Guest:Did it happen?

00:32:15Guest:It did not happen.

00:32:16Guest:Something happened.

00:32:18Guest:Whatever.

00:32:18Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:32:19Guest:The point is it didn't happen, and then my car gets torched, and then I'm like, I'm going to L.A.

00:32:23Guest:That's what happened.

00:32:24Guest:I moved to L.A.

00:32:24Guest:like a month later.

00:32:26Guest:That was your indication that I'm ready.

00:32:28Guest:I'm ready for the big time.

00:32:30Guest:But what I was going to say is that all the things that I did working hard those three years and hustling, I got to LA and it was like, hey, now go do a coffee shop.

00:32:38Guest:And I was like, fuck you, I'm not doing a coffee shop.

00:32:40Guest:As if I had something and I had nothing.

00:32:42Guest:That's the guy I text.

00:32:43Guest:Right.

00:32:44Guest:Right.

00:32:45Guest:And that was stupid.

00:32:47Guest:I should have worked really hard and gone to the improv every night.

00:32:49Guest:Which coffee shop?

00:32:50Guest:Like Bliss or something?

00:32:51Guest:No, not even Bliss.

00:32:52Guest:I'm just saying like whatever.

00:32:54Guest:You know how it is in LA.

00:32:55Guest:Yeah, a bookstore, a coffee shop, a laundromat.

00:32:58Guest:And I somehow thought I was above it because I had 20 minutes of material maybe.

00:33:01Marc:And you were working the road in Boston doing one night.

00:33:03Guest:You ran a club in Maine.

00:33:05Guest:Well, right.

00:33:06Guest:And so I thought it entitled me to something.

00:33:08Guest:And it did not.

00:33:09Guest:And I should have been the same.

00:33:10Guest:So when do you get sober?

00:33:11Guest:Because I feel like I met you through Mishnah.

00:33:14Guest:I did meet you through Mishnah.

00:33:15Guest:Yeah.

00:33:16Guest:But I started a room at a billiard hall.

00:33:20Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:33:20Guest:I played it.

00:33:21Guest:On Hollywood Boulevard.

00:33:22Guest:That's where I met you.

00:33:23Guest:Mishnah was there.

00:33:24Guest:Mishnah, for the listeners.

00:33:29Guest:Fuck you.

00:33:29Guest:Is my ex-wife.

00:33:31Guest:Mishnah Wolf.

00:33:32Guest:Yeah.

00:33:33Guest:Ex-wife number two.

00:33:33Guest:Yeah.

00:33:34Guest:She had a little sobriety coin on her keychain.

00:33:37Guest:And I was like, oh, hey, cool.

00:33:37Guest:I'm in the program, blah, blah, blah.

00:33:39Guest:She's like, somehow you came up.

00:33:42Guest:And she's like, he would do your room.

00:33:43Guest:And I was like, cool.

00:33:44Guest:And that's how it all started.

00:33:45Guest:You came to the room.

00:33:46Guest:We started talking, went to a few A meetings together.

00:33:48Guest:When did you get sober, though?

00:33:49Guest:I got sober as soon as I got to LA.

00:33:52Guest:Because it was such a, like, I just got to hit bottom so fast.

00:33:55Guest:Because LA is good like that.

00:33:56Guest:LA can go out every single night.

00:33:58Guest:Boston, yes, you can party every night.

00:34:00Guest:But most people are just, you know, they're living their life.

00:34:03Marc:I guess that's true.

00:34:04Marc:When I was there, there was, I think, a bigger comedy scene than Catch a Rising Star used to give everyone free drinks.

00:34:09Marc:So it was like crazy.

00:34:10Marc:Like everyone would converge there just for free drinks.

00:34:13Guest:Yeah.

00:34:13Guest:Like for us, it was more just like, you know, everybody worked their day job and then you go to, you know, you do the stand up on the weekends or I mean, you would do stuff during the week, but the big stuff was on the weekends.

00:34:23Marc:But anyway, you got to L.A.

00:34:24Guest:and started going to meetings.

00:34:25Guest:I got sober.

00:34:26Guest:I'd been in L.A.

00:34:27Guest:a month, and it's one of those, like, you know, the white light moment was I'd gone to the Velvet Room.

00:34:34Guest:Was it Burgundy Room?

00:34:35Guest:Velvet Room?

00:34:36Marc:Yeah, I don't remember.

00:34:37Guest:Something.

00:34:37Guest:I think it was Burgundy Room.

00:34:38Marc:Yeah.

00:34:40Guest:And I was walking down the street, and I couldn't find my car.

00:34:43Guest:Yeah.

00:34:44Guest:Was it on fire?

00:34:45Guest:uh i had a different car at this point i couldn't find my car yeah and i had no money and i hadn't met anybody and i was by myself and it was one of those like oh like how many nights in a row is this yeah like this is this is like i'm literally living the same this is a groundhog day situation yeah i called my dad

00:35:03Guest:who had 20 years at the time sober oh so you come from it and i said legacy oh yeah both sides both sides and i said hey dad i think i have a problem and he wisely didn't say you have to xyz he said why don't you go check out some meetings yeah that was it yeah yeah yeah so you knew about it because you grew up with it well i didn't grow up with my dad my dad left when i was two oh but you grew up with your mom my mom and stepdad yeah

00:35:28Guest:are both your parents jews yes yeah so yeah so i started going to meetings and that was it i i got struck sober and the whole holy shit so what what do you got you must have like 20 we have the same amount of time i think i got 24 october 25th 99 right so a little month apart or two yeah so you're coming up so we both have like so we both yes we both had like four years when i met you both kind of crazy still yes absolutely batshit crazy yeah

00:35:54Marc:So because I remember that room, it was like there was a huge billiard hall and then there was a side room.

00:35:59Marc:Yes.

00:35:59Marc:And we were in the side room.

00:36:01Marc:Right.

00:36:01Marc:And I remember it was one of those things where I came.

00:36:03Marc:There was like no one there really.

00:36:05Marc:Right.

00:36:06Marc:And you were doing your thing and you were like you cocky and you had a few jokes.

00:36:10Marc:Right.

00:36:11Marc:Yeah.

00:36:11Marc:And but I remember we talked.

00:36:13Marc:Yeah, I guess we did go to a couple of meetings.

00:36:15Marc:But you stayed sober.

00:36:16Marc:That's pretty good.

00:36:16Guest:Yeah, but the thing that really bonded us, Mark, was when I went on the road and I said, I got this gig.

00:36:22Guest:I'm going to host this thing.

00:36:24Guest:I'm going to be doing these malls for this Coca-Cola, American Idol-sponsored event gig thing.

00:36:29Guest:And you said, Matt, you should keep a journal.

00:36:31Guest:The mall journal.

00:36:32Guest:Yeah.

00:36:33Guest:And I started writing and I've gone back to it recently and it's hilarious.

00:36:37Guest:Yeah.

00:36:37Guest:It's hilarious.

00:36:39Guest:You ever write something and you start describing like some woman or some situation and you put like too much to say, but you'll remember.

00:36:46Guest:It's like, nope, I do not remember.

00:36:47Guest:It's been 30 years now.

00:36:49Guest:I do not remember.

00:36:49Marc:And then you look at it and it kind of pops off the page because you can get right back into your voice.

00:36:54Marc:Well, I just, dude, I found- I remember you doing that, and I was like, that's a horrendous gig, because it wasn't really a comedy gig.

00:37:01Marc:No.

00:37:01Marc:It was a presenting gig.

00:37:02Marc:Right.

00:37:03Marc:But it turns out I'm actually pretty good at that.

00:37:05Marc:No, I know that's why you got into the other business.

00:37:07Marc:Right.

00:37:08Marc:So that was the death knell of your comedy career.

00:37:11Guest:In a way.

00:37:13Guest:So I found this old tape of mine.

00:37:15Guest:Okay, yeah.

00:37:15Guest:I found this old tape of mine, and I was looking at myself doing my bits, and I was like, that guy's like a prisoner of those jokes.

00:37:24Guest:I was so afraid to step out of whatever the jokes were.

00:37:27Guest:Yeah.

00:37:28Guest:And then I found another tape, which was me hosting somebody's thing.

00:37:32Guest:Yeah.

00:37:34Guest:thing at comic-con or some anime thing yeah and i didn't have any material it was just talk about what's happening and i was super loose and super easy and i introduced the next thing and i'm like well i just should have leaned into that you could have been an audience warm-up guy whatever whatever what are you yelling for i'm saying that that

00:37:53Guest:The idea of this is how jokes have to go, and if I just trusted myself a little bit more, I might have been better.

00:38:00Marc:See, this is the other part, component of your personality.

00:38:04Marc:I think that I assumed, and it might not be true, was that part of your disposition post-comedy is regretting that you quit comedy.

00:38:16Marc:And that's a type, because that's a guy that coulda, woulda, shoulda in a way, but also is a little more judgmental of other comics and stuff.

00:38:28Guest:Every time I see you, you would say something like, blah, blah, blah, and then you quit the business.

00:38:33Guest:And I'm like, why do you have such a hard-on for this about me quitting comedy?

00:38:38Marc:I think other people are mad at me about that, too.

00:38:41Marc:I don't know, because whether or not I wanted to or not, I'm like...

00:38:47Marc:the real deal lifer at this point.

00:38:49Guest:Yes.

00:38:50Marc:And sometimes, I guess there's a sort of arrogance to that in that I could never figure out a way to quit, thankfully.

00:39:01Marc:But as I have gotten older, I have more respect for people who figured out another life for them and realized that this was not the life because it's not an easy life.

00:39:11Marc:To me, it implies some foresight.

00:39:15Marc:In that, like, there are guys who, like, I was never going to write for anybody.

00:39:21Marc:I was never going to, you know, I was just, all the other things that comics can do, and the smart ones knew early on, like, I know how to write.

00:39:29Marc:Why don't I get into writing shows?

00:39:31Marc:Right.

00:39:31Marc:and showrunning, they did that.

00:39:33Marc:A lot of the guys I started with had huge careers as showrunners.

00:39:36Marc:Why I just couldn't figure out how they could do it, and I knew I didn't want to do it, so I was sort of stuck.

00:39:43Marc:So before the podcast, I imagined that, yeah, my disposition was all I had to hold on to was the fact that I didn't quit.

00:39:50Guest:Yeah, so I met you, or met you.

00:39:52Guest:So when I first moved back to Atlanta...

00:39:55Guest:The podcast had just started, and people still didn't even know what a podcast was.

00:40:01Guest:You gave me a bunch of stickers.

00:40:02Guest:You're like, have you listened to this thing yet?

00:40:03Guest:I'm like, how do I do that on my computer?

00:40:05Guest:Because you were this guy that was like, remember, you did the fucking laughing skull.

00:40:10Guest:Yeah, 80-seater.

00:40:11Marc:Right.

00:40:12Marc:Yeah.

00:40:12Marc:And mad that it didn't sell out.

00:40:14Marc:Yeah, I know, dude.

00:40:16Marc:So like once you have a little sensitivity, a little empathy for young Mark.

00:40:21Guest:I'm so happy for Mark that Mark's gone on to all this great success.

00:40:24Guest:I'm watching you the other day on fucking Res Dogs.

00:40:27Guest:I was like, me and Stacey already love that show.

00:40:29Guest:And there comes Mark.

00:40:30Guest:Yeah.

00:40:30Guest:Right?

00:40:31Guest:Yeah.

00:40:31Guest:And that was awesome.

00:40:32Guest:Yeah.

00:40:32Guest:I'm super happy for you.

00:40:33Marc:Well, thank you.

00:40:34Guest:So stop being such a dick to me.

00:40:36Marc:I'm not being a dick to you.

00:40:37Marc:I'm just saying that maybe... Yeah, you couldn't hack it in the comedy.

00:40:41Marc:Did I do that today?

00:40:43Guest:You always bring it up.

00:40:44Guest:You pretty much always bring it up, the times that I see you.

00:40:47Guest:How about this, Mark?

00:40:48Guest:Is it possible?

00:40:50Guest:Yeah.

00:40:50Guest:Is it possible somewhere deep down my life looks something like maybe you wanted your life to look like?

00:40:58Guest:I would say...

00:41:01Marc:Absolutely not.

00:41:04Marc:There's nothing about your life per se.

00:41:08Marc:Like, I really did not want children.

00:41:11Marc:I'm not good at marriage, and I accepted that at some point.

00:41:15Marc:But I think the bigger problem is...

00:41:17Marc:is that there's some part of me that doesn't see me for actually who I am now.

00:41:23Marc:There's some part of me that's very much the same as it always was.

00:41:28Marc:And I think one of the reasons why it impacts you so much is that, you know, why am I talking to you like this?

00:41:35Marc:I'm doing great.

00:41:36Marc:Why can't I have a little humility?

00:41:38Marc:And the fact is there's some part of me, and I've been dealing with this a bit,

00:41:43Marc:not in therapy but in talking to other people that I don't see myself but it was a therapist that I don't see my position in the world I see myself as a guy that's still hanging on that didn't you know didn't become necessarily as big a comic as I wanted to be that somehow like a lot of times when I get invited to things by other comics I'm like why they even you know like there's just part of me that doesn't have a perspective on that and sometimes I speak from that place does that make sense to you

00:42:10Guest:Yes.

00:42:11Guest:Yeah.

00:42:12Guest:But no party.

00:42:13Guest:No party.

00:42:13Guest:I'm not saying the kids part.

00:42:14Guest:I just mean that just the if I have what's called maybe a normal life.

00:42:18Marc:No, I don't.

00:42:19Marc:I don't have any.

00:42:20Marc:There's no part of me that envies your life.

00:42:22Guest:OK.

00:42:23Marc:And that's not an insult.

00:42:24Guest:No, I get it.

00:42:25Guest:Yeah.

00:42:26Guest:I just thought that might be what some of the stuff is coming from.

00:42:28Guest:Maybe.

00:42:29Marc:No, it's the fact that you were a comic and you're still a little strangely cocky sometimes.

00:42:35Marc:You are.

00:42:36Marc:Don't give me this confused look like I'm just going to let you sit there like you're some resolved human.

00:42:41Guest:Mark.

00:42:41Guest:What?

00:42:43Guest:But you say it as if I'm doing that to you.

00:42:45Marc:No, I'm sure you do it to everybody.

00:42:48Marc:How am I not supposed to?

00:42:50Marc:You seem better right now.

00:42:51Marc:It seems like life over time has kind of hammered you into a humble servant.

00:42:57Marc:You said that.

00:42:57Marc:Finally.

00:42:59Guest:You said that to me the other day on the phone.

00:43:03Guest:You said, oh, like, I think you've lost a little bit.

00:43:05Guest:Because, yeah, like, it's fucking hard.

00:43:07Guest:I know.

00:43:08Guest:North of 50, I'm not thrilled with.

00:43:10Marc:Okay.

00:43:10Guest:All the ages that came along, whatever, whatever, whatever, turning 50, something weird happened with me where I'm like, like 50.

00:43:16Guest:So when was it then?

00:43:17Marc:And how did that happen?

00:43:19Guest:transpire that you actively was there a time where you're like i'm done with comedy that's what's so weird it didn't happen i started the staffing company i was getting hired did you but that's when you moved back here or you started in l.a so i was in l.a yeah and as a day job you can get hired to do event marketing experiential marketing anytime you've been virtual marketing

00:43:41Guest:experiential as an experience.

00:43:43Guest:Anytime you've been to a ball game or an event and some cute gal is handing out free stuff, I was doing that.

00:43:50Guest:Then people would be like, hey, you can show up on time and work relatively hard.

00:43:56Guest:We'll have you be the manager.

00:43:57Guest:Of the staffing thing.

00:43:59Guest:We'll pay you a few extra bucks.

00:44:00Guest:Right.

00:44:01Guest:And after doing that for about a year, just something occurred to me like maybe I could be the guy.

00:44:05Guest:Right.

00:44:05Guest:And I literally Googled how to start an LLC, how to get a federal ID number, and those were all free things.

00:44:12Guest:Yeah.

00:44:12Guest:So the next time this company called me and said, can we hire you and your friends to hand out bullshit at this Cadillac event?

00:44:19Guest:Yeah.

00:44:19Guest:I said, can you pay my company?

00:44:21Guest:And that was my first business.

00:44:22Guest:Yeah.

00:44:22Guest:And so when it started making money, it was like, oh, well, I haven't been on stage in like six months, but this is okay.

00:44:27Guest:I'm making, I mean, I'm still broke.

00:44:30Guest:Me and Stacey had started.

00:44:31Marc:But also, you're getting in front of people.

00:44:32Marc:Now, that's the other thing.

00:44:32Marc:You married a comic.

00:44:34Marc:Yes.

00:44:35Marc:Like, you were dating, I remember her as a comic, and I remember you started dating after you got sober.

00:44:41Guest:Yeah, we both have about the same amount of time of sobriety.

00:44:43Guest:You met in the rooms?

00:44:44Guest:We didn't meet in the rooms.

00:44:45Guest:And we always say if we did, it probably would have never happened.

00:44:47Guest:Like, if you hear each other's shit.

00:44:49Guest:Yeah.

00:44:49Guest:But thankfully, we didn't, even though Hollywood AA is so small.

00:44:52Guest:Yeah.

00:44:53Guest:She remembers going to meetings with you, going to the Bliss Cafe, meetings with you.

00:44:57Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:44:58Guest:And that's a small meeting.

00:44:59Guest:Yeah, I love that meeting.

00:45:00Guest:But for whatever reason, her and I never crossed paths.

00:45:02Guest:And then she was doing... It was stand-up one night, and her...

00:45:06Guest:Her stuff was about like her dad was a drug dealer and dating a heroin addict.

00:45:13Guest:And I was like, oh, she has to be in the program.

00:45:15Guest:So I approached her and off we went.

00:45:18Marc:Well, that's nice.

00:45:18Marc:And you're still together through thick and thin.

00:45:20Marc:Yes.

00:45:21Marc:All right.

00:45:22Marc:So you start the event company in LA.

00:45:23Marc:The staffing company.

00:45:24Marc:The staffing company.

00:45:26Marc:You don't miss comedy.

00:45:28Guest:No, I used to have this thing where I'd watch certain people and I'd go, you know, maybe I wouldn't do stand-up, but maybe like a one-man show, like maybe.

00:45:35Guest:And now, because I do what you do, I get to talk to people.

00:45:39Guest:You have a podcast.

00:45:40Guest:I have a podcast.

00:45:41Guest:What's it called?

00:45:42Guest:Obstacle Racing Media Podcast, which we'll get to, I'm sure, the movie and all that stuff.

00:45:46Marc:So you start the event, the staffing company in LA, but then you want to expand or you want to get married.

00:45:52Marc:We had a kid in LA.

00:45:54Guest:She wasn't, she had moved to LA to act when she was like 18.

00:45:57Guest:So she'd been to LA for like 20 years already.

00:45:59Guest:You're right.

00:45:59Guest:And I'd been there for 10.

00:46:00Guest:Yeah.

00:46:01Guest:And we were both like, fuck LA.

00:46:03Guest:Yeah.

00:46:03Guest:She's from San Francisco.

00:46:04Guest:I was from Atlanta.

00:46:05Guest:Yeah.

00:46:07Guest:Where should we go?

00:46:08Guest:Well, Atlanta's cheaper.

00:46:08Guest:Let's go to Atlanta.

00:46:09Guest:That was pretty much it.

00:46:10Guest:And then you started a new company?

00:46:12Guest:You were able to hold it?

00:46:13Guest:No, I did the staffing company for another five or six years.

00:46:17Guest:So you just moved the business here and hired local people in Atlanta?

00:46:20Guest:Well, you staff.

00:46:22Guest:I mean, the internet's everywhere.

00:46:23Guest:You could staff anything.

00:46:25Marc:Oh, I see.

00:46:25Marc:So it didn't matter where the event was.

00:46:27Guest:Yeah.

00:46:27Guest:So we staffed Dreamforce, this huge convention in San Francisco.

00:46:30Guest:Yeah.

00:46:30Guest:But I learned a very valuable lesson about business, Mark.

00:46:34Guest:It doesn't matter how much you make.

00:46:35Guest:It's how much you keep.

00:46:36Guest:And I did not know how to keep good margins.

00:46:38Guest:And I didn't know how to budget.

00:46:39Guest:And I didn't know how to scale, as they say.

00:46:42Guest:And so I made one year my business grossed $900,000.

00:46:46Guest:And I had nothing at the end of it.

00:46:48Guest:Now, is this another program you're in?

00:46:51Marc:I've gone to DA.

00:46:53Marc:I'm not in it now.

00:46:54Marc:But you felt like it was a problem?

00:46:57Yeah.

00:46:58Marc:I've never been good with money.

00:46:59Marc:No, but I mean to the point where you're like, oh, my God, this is a problem.

00:47:04Guest:It is a problem.

00:47:06Guest:It's currently a problem.

00:47:06Guest:You're talking to someone who has a wife and three children and pets to feed, and it's fucking hard.

00:47:11Marc:Yeah.

00:47:12Guest:But I only know how to do this.

00:47:13Marc:You know what?

00:47:13Marc:I don't envy it.

00:47:14Guest:See?

00:47:15Yeah.

00:47:17Guest:How about someone that loves me really deeply, though?

00:47:20Guest:That she does.

00:47:21Guest:And that would do anything for me.

00:47:23Guest:What about that?

00:47:23Guest:You want one of those?

00:47:24Guest:That's pretty good.

00:47:25Marc:I never can hold on to one of those.

00:47:26Marc:I break those, generally.

00:47:28Marc:Right.

00:47:29Marc:So that was it.

00:47:30Marc:You just moved the staffing company to Atlanta, and you went for... How long did you have it?

00:47:36Marc:I think looking back, it might have only been like eight years.

00:47:39Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:47:41Marc:But then, like, I remember the, like, I think that the time where I found out about this obstacle racing thing was the same time.

00:47:49Marc:And I don't know if you want to talk about it, but, like, it was all part of this disaster situation.

00:47:55Marc:story that you had in your life.

00:47:57Marc:Yes.

00:47:57Marc:Like it was sort of like, I don't understand this obstacle course thing.

00:48:02Marc:I don't like, and you're like, it's great.

00:48:03Marc:Everyone's doing it.

00:48:04Marc:And you know, you run and you jump on things, water, you know, but so I kind of got an image of it, but it seemed like this kind of weekend thing for people to, it's almost a, has a motivational element to it.

00:48:18Marc:Like, like it's regular people.

00:48:20Marc:It's like when people take improv classes to learn how to speak better at work.

00:48:24Marc:Like, it seemed like, you know, the obstacle course thing was like, you know, my life is kind of boring and this makes me feel like I accomplish things.

00:48:32Guest:Yeah.

00:48:32Guest:And that's what happens to some people.

00:48:34Guest:Is that why you got in it?

00:48:36Guest:I did it because a friend of mine was doing it.

00:48:38Marc:Yeah.

00:48:38Guest:And he was like, my friend Dominic was like, I'm going to do one next year.

00:48:42Guest:And I was like, well, you're fat and you're going to do it.

00:48:44Guest:Then I'm going to do it if you can fucking do it.

00:48:46Guest:So you were still doing the staffing company.

00:48:47Marc:Yeah.

00:48:48Guest:Some guy you knew.

00:48:48Guest:Yeah.

00:48:49Guest:Yeah.

00:48:49Guest:And we did it.

00:48:50Guest:And I was like, that was really good.

00:48:51Guest:Let me do another one.

00:48:52Guest:Yeah.

00:48:52Guest:And then I hung around some of these people and I just started like just when you when you I was like just like I wasn't fat, but I wasn't like fit.

00:49:02Guest:Right.

00:49:02Guest:I was just a normal dad, like a normal softball playing dad is the best way I can describe it.

00:49:07Guest:Right.

00:49:07Guest:Sure.

00:49:07Guest:Yeah.

00:49:07Guest:So if you're 40 years old and you're in that shape, you know what I'm talking about.

00:49:12Guest:And then I went to this thing up in Vermont called the Death Race, which was these crazy people.

00:49:17Guest:There's like no start, no finish, and they're just out there doing all this crazy stuff.

00:49:21Guest:And I was listening to you, and I was listening to This American Life, and I was like, I think I'd like to start a podcast.

00:49:29Guest:For this?

00:49:30Guest:Yes.

00:49:30Guest:Your second event?

00:49:32Guest:Second or third event, yeah.

00:49:33Yeah.

00:49:33Marc:You thought this is a community that has a very specific thing.

00:49:39Marc:All kinds of different people are in it for a lot of different reasons.

00:49:42Marc:It's a national or international sport-ish.

00:49:46Guest:I just knew that there was something about it that I really liked and that I was...

00:49:52Guest:But were you looking at it as a way to make a living?

00:49:56Guest:No, I just thought I think podcasting would be cool.

00:50:00Guest:Yeah.

00:50:01Guest:Again, this is 2012, which is not as early as you started, but still pretty damn early on the podcast train.

00:50:06Guest:Yeah.

00:50:11Guest:presenting as you say doing social media and making videos like what today they would call a content creator oh for for obstacle stuff yeah but in 2012 it was just sure me doing what i did and then it turns out you get you have uh sponsors and stuff well that's how i make money yeah yeah but i'm saying this is this is how i found this which obviously would never have happened if i didn't do stand-up dude like never would have happened if i didn't

00:50:36Guest:Stand up is the is the basis of everything.

00:50:38Marc:So now you like this community.

00:50:40Marc:You like the sport.

00:50:41Marc:You like the people.

00:50:41Marc:You want to do a podcast.

00:50:44Marc:But then you kind of dig into it and you're doing this thing.

00:50:47Marc:And it's still a fairly like I just saw somebody DM me about listening to me on 100 mile run.

00:50:54Marc:And it must have been that thing.

00:50:55Marc:Well, there's a lot of 100 mile runs.

00:50:57Marc:There is.

00:50:58Marc:Yes.

00:50:58Marc:See, like, it's just a whole world.

00:51:00Marc:I'm not a sports guy, but it's not like an Olympic sport or anything.

00:51:05Marc:But I'm not trying to dismiss it, but it is a subculture of athletics.

00:51:10Marc:Correct.

00:51:10Guest:So ultramarathons are a whole other culture, but some of the people that we do do some of those.

00:51:15Guest:Oh, those are just 100-mile runs?

00:51:16Guest:Yeah, you just go run...

00:51:18Guest:For 100 miles in the woods somewhere.

00:51:20Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:51:20Guest:And, you know, it takes a day, and it's the reason I gave my video such a click-baity title, The Hardest 100-Miler, because I figured it would work, and it did.

00:51:28Marc:Right, yeah.

00:51:29Marc:Because then people are like, this isn't the hardest race ever.

00:51:32Marc:Well, yeah, but that was why I felt like it, while watching it, that this is for them.

00:51:37Marc:That like, you know, as an outsider here and I don't the video looks great, but it's very hard to to build suspense with a 24 hour race.

00:51:47Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:51:47Marc:Right.

00:51:48Marc:And but if you know the sport and you know the race and you followed a few of the competitors.

00:51:54Marc:But what I was watching as somebody who I didn't even know, like for even if you just at the beginning said, all right, this is the course.

00:52:01Marc:it would have been helpful for me.

00:52:03Guest:Okay.

00:52:03Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:52:04Marc:Because I'm watching, I'm like, oh, so they help each other over the water thing?

00:52:08Marc:I don't know the parameters of the rules, and I didn't know how they ran around the same course many times.

00:52:16Marc:I didn't know any of that.

00:52:17Marc:All I knew is that we're getting the same shot with people getting progressively more tired.

00:52:21Marc:Yes.

00:52:22Guest:So the very first shot of the movie is the opening.

00:52:25Guest:You get kind of that quick thing.

00:52:27Guest:Five mile loops, 24 hours, blah, blah, blah.

00:52:29Guest:Trust me, we...

00:52:31Guest:thought a lot about how much when you make something like this how much how much do you hold hands how much do you explain the rules right to me the stories about those three women yeah and what they went through sure so that's what we leaned on yeah but at the end i'm like so you can just it's a is it a timed thing is that why some people did 80 miles and some people did 75 yeah

00:52:50Marc:It's not they just crap out at a certain point.

00:52:52Guest:Some people, many people crap out.

00:52:54Marc:Of course, that's obvious, but it is a time thing.

00:52:57Marc:Yes.

00:52:57Marc:So when time is up, whoever has the most miles- Wins.

00:53:01Marc:Okay.

00:53:01Marc:It's not like, you know, if you don't make it to 100- No.

00:53:05Marc:Okay.

00:53:05Marc:No.

00:53:06Marc:See, that was a problem for me.

00:53:08Marc:Okay.

00:53:09Marc:But I'm not smart when it comes to watching stuff.

00:53:11Marc:It's okay.

00:53:12Marc:Yeah.

00:53:12Marc:It's okay.

00:53:14Marc:But so this was sort of what you were working towards in the sense that you're not only a competitor, you're clearly a member of the community, and people refer to you and know you because you've been doing media with them for so long, and you're also a competitor.

00:53:30Marc:But this was a big deal, the doc.

00:53:32Yeah.

00:53:32Guest:Well, a lot of people have made versions of that which aren't as good, which were a lot of the same beats over and over again, which is, hey, it's the morning.

00:53:42Guest:Hey, it's night.

00:53:43Guest:Hey, it's the next day.

00:53:44Guest:Yay, we all made it.

00:53:46Guest:And I thought no one's really showed how hard it was.

00:53:49Guest:And a lot of the comments that people have done the race have said, I think this actually shows how freaking hard it is.

00:53:55Marc:Yeah, no, you definitely got a sense of that.

00:53:57Marc:I just didn't know the rules.

00:53:58Marc:Right.

00:53:59Marc:But that's, you know, whatever.

00:54:00Marc:Right.

00:54:01Marc:But yeah, you definitely sense.

00:54:03Marc:Like the girl, like when he back cut to the woman from the beginning to where she's losing her cognitive ability.

00:54:12Marc:Correct.

00:54:13Marc:You're sort of like, well, you know what I mean?

00:54:16Marc:But it's not an indictment because you've got to believe how she believed at the beginning, how all of them believed at the beginning.

00:54:22Marc:But I mean, that's going to take its course on you to run and...

00:54:25Marc:walk and climb and swing and swim for, you know, 24... What are all the obstacles?

00:54:32Marc:Does each obstacle course have the same general obstacles?

00:54:35Guest:So certain races, right, if you just think like the Coke and the Pepsi and whatever, have their own kind of flavor.

00:54:41Guest:This particular race...

00:54:44Guest:They like to do... What's it called?

00:54:45Guest:The Mudder?

00:54:46Guest:The World's Toughest Mudder.

00:54:47Guest:The Tough Mudder is the company.

00:54:48Guest:Yeah.

00:54:48Guest:They like to play on your fears.

00:54:51Guest:So it's not just like something that might not be that hard, like crawling through a tube at night, right?

00:54:56Guest:Not that hard, but if you're scared of small spaces, it's really hard for people.

00:55:00Guest:Sure.

00:55:00Guest:Jumping off large water structures.

00:55:02Guest:We've had that in past years.

00:55:03Guest:That didn't make it this year, but that's a super epic thing.

00:55:06Guest:We jumped off this thing called the cliff because it was a giant cliff.

00:55:08Guest:Yeah.

00:55:09Guest:And it's like, I don't want to do that.

00:55:11Guest:Yeah.

00:55:11Guest:But, yeah, it's basically what can you put – listen, anybody who does these races will tell you after like six hours, it's all mental.

00:55:20Guest:It's all mental.

00:55:21Marc:Yeah.

00:55:22Marc:But, yeah, several – have people died?

00:55:25Marc:A couple people have.

00:55:26Marc:Yes, but you didn't want to do that kind of documentary?

00:55:29Marc:This race has killed two people.

00:55:32Marc:I mean, yeah.

00:55:34Marc:But, you know, obviously they didn't die from the race.

00:55:37Marc:They died because of whatever.

00:55:38Marc:Well, one guy did drown a long time ago.

00:55:40Guest:You can Google it if you want.

00:55:42Guest:In 2013, a guy died.

00:55:43Guest:It was really sad.

00:55:44Guest:He jumped out with, no, but it was a big deal in our sport.

00:55:47Guest:And it's a bummer, dude.

00:55:49Guest:It's a tragedy.

00:55:51Yeah.

00:55:51Marc:obviously but but a lot of people crap out right i mean like most people when it gets cold go i'm really cold i'm gonna stop we're but but the pit stops they can go to the bathroom and stuff there's no like i imagine some people like you know shit their pants and stuff and just pee while they're running you definitely pee in wetsuits that's the thing yeah because it's too much of a pain in the ass to take off

00:56:10Marc:Oh, okay.

00:56:12Marc:Man, is it all worth it?

00:56:15Guest:I think so.

00:56:15Guest:I've done that race a couple times.

00:56:17Guest:You did 100 miles?

00:56:18Guest:No, I did 50 in the same time.

00:56:20Guest:That's crazy.

00:56:21Guest:I have run 100 miles before over the course of a whole weekend.

00:56:25Marc:At some point, they're just eating pizza.

00:56:26Marc:Yes.

00:56:28Marc:That's like mile 70 and she's just carrying two pieces of pizza.

00:56:32Marc:But isn't that great?

00:56:32Marc:Yeah.

00:56:33Marc:Snickers, pizza, other things I don't know.

00:56:36Guest:But the reason, listen, I wanted you to watch it because I do feel like even if you're not into the sport, it is a story that's about these three women, right?

00:56:45Guest:And that when you look at our budget, zero, zero.

00:56:47Guest:It comes out pretty good.

00:56:49Marc:No, no.

00:56:50Marc:I thought the doc looked great.

00:56:51Marc:It was just me coming into something.

00:56:53Marc:I did not understand the rules or the parameters or the nature of the race.

00:56:58Marc:And maybe I missed that at the beginning.

00:57:00Marc:Like I said, it's that opening thing.

00:57:03Guest:If you were getting your popcorn ready or whatever or finishing text, you might have missed it.

00:57:07Guest:That would have explained everything.

00:57:09Guest:well it's it's it says it does say five mile loops 25 obstacles 24 yeah it basically explains all right then my bad it's the opening my bad it's the opening salve i also think it's best enjoyed on a large television not your laptop but that's fine you watch now this is and you're gonna ask me why i text you shitty text like i you know you're asking me did i watch it did i watch it now like i watch it last night and i absorbed the whole thing you're like it's really like if you had a larger television maybe you should watch it again

00:57:34Guest:No, I wouldn't ask you to watch it again.

00:57:36Guest:I'm just saying, ideally, it's better experienced on a large TV.

00:57:40Guest:I think you would have liked it even more.

00:57:41Marc:I don't know.

00:57:42Marc:No, no, no.

00:57:42Marc:I liked it.

00:57:43Marc:It was shot well.

00:57:44Marc:The music was good.

00:57:45Marc:It's just that, like I said before, and I wasn't even joking, it's hard to build up that finish line thing when it's literally a 24-hour race.

00:57:57Marc:Because you could just keep going back to them wearing down.

00:58:00Marc:But the ending of it with the placing happens sort of abruptly.

00:58:04Marc:You're like, oh, it's over?

00:58:05Marc:You know what I mean?

00:58:07Guest:Because there's no way... Well, my whole thing with it was how do we... I don't want people... Where is it...

00:58:15Guest:Would people get bored?

00:58:16Guest:That was the whole thing with how making something that's like a legitimate documentary about this race, showing how hard it is without it just being what you're describing.

00:58:22Guest:Right.

00:58:23Guest:Like a two hour slog fest.

00:58:24Guest:So I think it comes in at a nice lean.

00:58:27Guest:Yeah.

00:58:27Guest:Forty eight minutes.

00:58:28Marc:Yeah.

00:58:29Marc:Yeah.

00:58:29Marc:No, it was good.

00:58:30Marc:It's good work.

00:58:30Marc:So how do you now?

00:58:31Marc:What is the the life of something like that?

00:58:34Guest:Well, we just put it on YouTube, and then I thought I'd like some people to see it, like, not just on YouTube.

00:58:42Guest:Did you get money from Mudder?

00:58:44Guest:No.

00:58:45Guest:No one gave you money?

00:58:46Guest:No.

00:58:46Guest:It was all self whatever.

00:58:48Guest:And so then I did reach out to Outside TV, and I said, like, would you guys like this?

00:58:54Guest:And they said yes.

00:58:55Guest:So now it's on Outside TV, which nobody, you know.

00:58:58Guest:But somebody has to.

00:59:00Marc:Outside from Outside Magazine?

00:59:01Guest:Yes, same people.

00:59:02Guest:They have a TV thing.

00:59:04Guest:And I would like to do more stuff like that.

00:59:06Guest:But what I wanted to say before I forgot about just doing this whole thing, and I know I've said this to you before, but in six months...

00:59:16Guest:first year of me doing this podcast and putting out content about this sport, people in the sport would come up to me at races and be like, this is great.

00:59:24Guest:Thank you for what you're doing.

00:59:26Guest:Yeah.

00:59:26Guest:Because I love the sport and I don't know where to get any other, like, thanks for what you're doing basically for the sport.

00:59:31Guest:And I never got that, like, I never got once, like, close to that in 10 years of comedy because my idea of comedy was completely different.

00:59:38Guest:Yeah.

00:59:38Guest:It wasn't about, like, being this giving person and providing, like,

00:59:44Guest:things for an audience community person it was like how can I get mine doing stand-up was like how can I get mine how can I get famous how can I get laid all the things you mean all the stuff that you've talked about we're like sit in the coffee shop what is that guy have a fucking show fuck that fucking guy instead of just working hard and trying to be a good member of the community and all those things that I've learned to do now that that honestly do come to be pretty naturally I am a I think a naturally giving person yeah I am too

01:00:13Guest:I know, I experience it often, not in person, but on the show.

01:00:17Guest:What are you talking about when we hang out?

01:00:19Guest:I was joking.

01:00:19Marc:I know, you're fine.

01:00:22Marc:But yeah, because I remember that was the big shift, is that even with that crisis, I don't know if we need to talk about, unless you felt it, that there was this kind of idea, it threatened everything.

01:00:35Marc:Yes.

01:00:36Guest:Yeah.

01:00:36Guest:Well, I think let's just say, let's talk as we say, what do we say?

01:00:41Guest:What's the word in the program that we say?

01:00:42Guest:We share it in a general way.

01:00:43Guest:Yeah.

01:00:44Guest:So my marriage almost fell apart.

01:00:46Guest:Right.

01:00:46Guest:For the reasons that normally would make a marriage fall apart.

01:00:50Guest:Right.

01:00:50Guest:Something stupid that guys do.

01:00:52Marc:It was an obstacle course you didn't need to be on.

01:00:54Guest:Correct.

01:00:56Guest:Yeah.

01:00:57Guest:And you happened to be there at the crux of it.

01:01:02Guest:Yeah.

01:01:02Guest:And getting through that...

01:01:05Marc:It was astounding.

01:01:07Marc:I've only had a couple of friends that have dealt with things as daunting, where

01:01:14Marc:all the outcomes seemed terrible in terms of what could have happened when you do transgress.

01:01:23Marc:But it was because of recovery, I think is what was amazing to me, is that because you both, you and your wife, had enough recovery and you were able to frame, I think rightfully so, your issues in this other world of compulsion that you were able to communicate and get through it.

01:01:42Guest:Yeah, and I feel pretty lucky because most women say, yeah, see you later.

01:01:46Guest:Of course.

01:01:47Guest:Like end of story.

01:01:48Guest:Of course.

01:01:49Guest:Like no therapy, no anything.

01:01:51Guest:Yeah.

01:01:51Guest:Or they just punish the guy for the rest of his life.

01:01:54Guest:Sure.

01:01:55Guest:And so I feel pretty fortunate that both of us were willing to do whatever it took to make it through it.

01:02:00Guest:And it's one of those things that like as horrible as it is, it does make you closer.

01:02:05Yeah.

01:02:06Guest:How do you feel about what's happened here?

01:02:08Guest:I feel pretty good.

01:02:09Guest:I do have a couple questions for you.

01:02:10Guest:Go ahead.

01:02:12Guest:I mean, some of this could get cut, right?

01:02:17Guest:Yeah.

01:02:18Guest:I have nothing to do with that.

01:02:19Guest:All right, Brendan, try to keep this in.

01:02:21Guest:Okay.

01:02:22Guest:I wanted to talk to you.

01:02:24Guest:I did want to talk to you about, to Leslie, if you haven't talked too much about it.

01:02:28Guest:Okay.

01:02:29Guest:I finally saw it.

01:02:30Guest:A random friend texted me.

01:02:31Guest:Yeah.

01:02:32Guest:Said, have you seen this?

01:02:33Guest:I think you might be friends with Mark.

01:02:34Guest:You'll like it.

01:02:35Guest:Yeah.

01:02:36Guest:It's clearly the hardest thing you've ever done.

01:02:38Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:02:38Guest:Right?

01:02:40Mm-hmm.

01:02:41Marc:I guess so.

01:02:42Marc:I didn't think of it that way.

01:02:43Marc:But as an actor, I made choices to try to do things that I had never done before.

01:02:48Marc:So it was hard in that way.

01:02:49Guest:Well, this is what I had to ask you about, is the accent.

01:02:52Guest:Because I thought that held your back, actually.

01:02:55Guest:And I thought you didn't have to do it.

01:02:57Guest:And by the way...

01:02:58Guest:I don't want people to think I'm a dick.

01:03:00Guest:You did an amazing job.

01:03:01Guest:That's a great movie.

01:03:01Guest:Everybody crushes it.

01:03:02Guest:Fucking she does.

01:03:04Guest:What's his name?

01:03:05Guest:Sorry, Bubbles.

01:03:06Guest:Sure.

01:03:06Guest:Crushes it.

01:03:07Guest:Yeah.

01:03:08Guest:Andre.

01:03:09Guest:Andre.

01:03:09Guest:Royland.

01:03:10Guest:Royo.

01:03:11Guest:Yes.

01:03:12Guest:But I thought, huh, this is an interesting choice because it's tough.

01:03:14Guest:It's tough to keep going the whole time.

01:03:16Guest:So I just wanted to ask you about that if you haven't already talked about it.

01:03:19Marc:Well, I think I have talked about it.

01:03:20Marc:It was like one of these things where I got that gig.

01:03:23Marc:I pushed back on the gig.

01:03:25Marc:Because I thought that they could find someone else to do it.

01:03:27Marc:But the director convinced me that he wanted me to do it.

01:03:30Marc:And I said to him, I said, I don't know about the accent.

01:03:33Marc:He said, don't worry about the accent.

01:03:34Marc:And then I thought, I talked to James Caan.

01:03:38Marc:Jimmy?

01:03:39Marc:Yeah.

01:03:40Marc:Well, I watched a lot of his old movies.

01:03:42Marc:And I started to see that there's a lot of actors that choose to do accents, but it doesn't necessarily go over that well.

01:03:51Marc:But I wanted to take that risk.

01:03:53Marc:So I met with a dialect coach.

01:03:55Marc:And some people thought I did a great job, some people not so much.

01:03:58Marc:It was a very mild accent.

01:04:00Marc:And when I watch it, I'm okay with it.

01:04:03Marc:There's a couple moments where I'm out of it.

01:04:05Marc:But, you know, I was given a way to sort of load up with it and break it down.

01:04:11Marc:But I wanted to do that.

01:04:12Marc:I made the choice because I thought, well, if I'm going to be an actor, you know, I got to try these things.

01:04:17Marc:Okay.

01:04:17Guest:And I totally respect that.

01:04:19Marc:Yeah.

01:04:19Marc:And like...

01:04:20Marc:And I didn't think anyone would see that movie necessarily, but I didn't think I did a bad job either.

01:04:25Marc:I was kind of all in.

01:04:27Marc:But I just thought, how am I going to make this interesting?

01:04:30Marc:I knew the guy wasn't me to begin with, but it was also supposed to be a Texas character.

01:04:36Marc:So even if I didn't do any accent, it would hard for me not to do me-isms.

01:04:41Marc:So I thought that that would stop me.

01:04:43Guest:Like that's just marrying a cowboy hat.

01:04:45Marc:Right.

01:04:45Marc:Or whatever.

01:04:46Marc:I wasn't wearing a cowboy hat.

01:04:47Marc:You know what I'm saying.

01:04:48Marc:But emotionally, I really was not expected to be me.

01:04:51Marc:So I thought like, you know, when she told me that we were going to do this Lubbock accent, that it's pretty mild and there's a way to do it.

01:04:58Marc:I thought like, well, fuck it.

01:04:59Marc:Let's do it.

01:05:00Marc:And if it was going to be a problem, if anyone had a problem with it, they would have told me.

01:05:04Marc:But that's why I did it, to challenge myself as an actor to try something.

01:05:09Guest:And when you know someone as well as we know each other, it's also hard because I'm like, would I even notice so much if I don't know what Mark actually sounds like?

01:05:17Marc:Yeah, I didn't get a lot of negative feedback about it.

01:05:20Marc:There were some people that were surprised and thought I did a great job.

01:05:24Marc:Uh, and, but no one said it was a mockery.

01:05:27Marc:It wasn't, I wasn't trying to do a Boston.

01:05:29Marc:No, no, no, no, no.

01:05:30Marc:I wasn't trying to do like a real, Hey y'all, you know, it was just, it seemed to me that what I agreed upon with the dialect coach made sense.

01:05:40Guest:Were there rules?

01:05:43Marc:No, it's not that there are rules, but what a good dialect coach does is she showed me a video.

01:05:50Marc:She made me watch Mac Davis, of all people, this singer-songwriter.

01:05:54Marc:She found somebody from Lubbock.

01:05:56Marc:To give me an example of the subtlety of it.

01:05:58Marc:And then she just gives you this breakdown of how words and vowels are different than how they pronounce them.

01:06:06Marc:So before a scene, I would just sort of load up on the lines, make my choices, and then make sure I'm saying as many of the words right relative to the accent as possible.

01:06:17Marc:And I just did it scene for scene.

01:06:19Marc:So there's no rules, but that helped.

01:06:21Marc:Got it.

01:06:22Marc:What's your other question?

01:06:24Guest:Oh, Res Dogs.

01:06:26Guest:We're late to it.

01:06:27Guest:My wife and I just saw it.

01:06:28Guest:I love that guy.

01:06:29Guest:It's the best show ever.

01:06:31Guest:So how did that come to you?

01:06:33Marc:Well, I had an opportunity to interview Sterling Harjo, the director, and I thought the show was beyond.

01:06:42Marc:I think it's an important show in terms of giving Native people a place where they can express their unique sense of humor, their unique spirituality, their unique living conditions.

01:06:56Marc:and really go full-throated with that world.

01:07:00Marc:I think that it did something that's never been done before in terms of really shattering the perception that most people have of Native people and gave them a real voice.

01:07:13Marc:So I was totally impressed with it, and I got the opportunity to interview Sterling, and I watched all his movies, and I just have total respect for that guy.

01:07:22Marc:And I said to him, I said, get me in one.

01:07:25Marc:You know what I mean?

01:07:25Marc:You got Kurt in there.

01:07:26Marc:You got Kirk in there.

01:07:27Marc:You got Bill.

01:07:28Marc:You definitely are in my world.

01:07:30Marc:Right.

01:07:30Marc:And he said, I'll see what I can do.

01:07:32Marc:And that episode, because they sort of half model them on movies, if you notice, because Sterling's kind of a film nerd.

01:07:41Marc:So a lot of them are themed like movies.

01:07:44Marc:And that one was clearly written to be a full metal jacket thing.

01:07:49Marc:Oh.

01:07:49Marc:And I just wasn't going to do that.

01:07:51Marc:So I looked at the script.

01:07:53Marc:Oh, so he saw that guy as an ass kicker.

01:07:56Marc:Sure.

01:07:57Marc:Well, he saw him as sort of like a Sarge kind of guy.

01:08:00Marc:Right.

01:08:00Marc:So I just did my version of that.

01:08:03Marc:Interesting.

01:08:04Marc:And he gave me the freedom.

01:08:07Marc:They didn't expect that.

01:08:08Marc:But I sort of did it, and I think it kind of worked out.

01:08:12Marc:That was much closer to who I am, that guy.

01:08:15Marc:But when I told the story during that meeting,

01:08:18Marc:About my wife.

01:08:19Marc:That was a little heavy-handed.

01:08:21Marc:No, it was funny.

01:08:22Marc:It was funny.

01:08:23Marc:It's comedy.

01:08:24Marc:Midgets?

01:08:25Marc:That's pretty hacky.

01:08:26Marc:Come on.

01:08:27Marc:But that was the guy.

01:08:28Marc:It wasn't me.

01:08:30Marc:And you wonder why I'm a dick to you.

01:08:34Marc:Well, it was because that's a hacky joke.

01:08:36Marc:Come on, dude.

01:08:37Marc:What, to use midgets?

01:08:38Guest:Yes.

01:08:41Guest:If you had left it at my wife cheated on me, it was a threesome, and then left it.

01:08:45Guest:Oh, so you didn't write that?

01:08:47Guest:No.

01:08:47Guest:Oh, okay.

01:08:48Guest:Well, then it's fine then.

01:08:49Guest:I thought you had lived that, maybe.

01:08:50Marc:No.

01:08:51Guest:I amplified it, but I didn't.

01:08:55Guest:The note I would have given would be like, let's lose the midget line.

01:08:59Guest:The rest of it's good.

01:09:00Guest:You lost me at the midgets.

01:09:01Guest:Yeah.

01:09:02Marc:Well, you lose me most times.

01:09:04Marc:You see, the thing that you forget is that I'm a sensitive guy, and if I was as critical of you as you are innately comfortable to be of me because of your own whatever...

01:09:13Marc:then you would understand.

01:09:15Guest:Why does this fucking light you up so much, Mark?

01:09:17Marc:Why are you so... Why did it light you up when I said that the movie, at the beginning, maybe you put a little more of the explanation at the beginning, and you got all hurt-faced on me.

01:09:27Marc:I'm the same guy as you, so don't ask me fucking questions that you know the answer to.

01:09:31Marc:I'm the same guy as you.

01:09:33Guest:And so I'm supposed to say an angry fucking dude that's afraid to get hurt?

01:09:39Guest:Is that it?

01:09:40Guest:I'm not afraid to get hurt.

01:09:41Guest:I'm a fucking comic.

01:09:42Guest:I stayed with it.

01:09:49Guest:That's the best part that you think it's an insult, that you think me quitting comedy is an insult.

01:09:53Marc:I don't really think it's an insult.

01:09:55Marc:It was a callback to something funny.

01:09:57Marc:But I think you meant it.

01:09:58Marc:And I'm happy that you feel comfortable enough to be sort of questioning and critical to my face about what I've done.

01:10:05Marc:It's fine.

01:10:06Guest:You're unbelievable, Mark.

01:10:08Marc:You're unbelievable.

01:10:09Marc:I know.

01:10:10Guest:I know.

01:10:10Guest:You think that... You take so much... It was that great line from fucking... From Glenn Gary.

01:10:16Guest:It's like, you think this is abuse?

01:10:18Guest:How could you take abuse?

01:10:19Guest:I don't think it's abuse.

01:10:20Guest:I'm saying you hang out with comics who are way more... I don't think it's abuse.

01:10:24Guest:It's not abuse.

01:10:25Marc:I give you my somewhat...

01:10:28Marc:You're a guy that no matter what someone fucking does, you'll find the weak point in it and you'll lean on it.

01:10:35Marc:You'll say like, yeah, that was good, but you're just that fucking guy because it makes you feel bigger.

01:10:40Marc:And it's just the way you're wired.

01:10:42Marc:And it's fucking annoying.

01:10:43Marc:So don't pretend like we're somehow different or you don't understand what I'm talking about.

01:10:48Marc:You look for things in people and you find a certain comfort zone.

01:10:52Marc:The thing is don't judge me about what I can and can't take from comics.

01:10:56Marc:I've been doing this a long fucking time and I can take a lot.

01:10:59Marc:And I tolerate you and I like you and I think you're a friend.

01:11:02Marc:But you look for the fucking weak points to fucking twist a little bit.

01:11:06Marc:And you think it's just sort of like, I'm just being reasonable.

01:11:08Marc:I'm being honest.

01:11:09Marc:But it is what it is.

01:11:10Marc:And it's something that you do.

01:11:12Marc:And I know you've done it with other people.

01:11:13Marc:It's somehow you fucking float your boat emotionally.

01:11:16Marc:But don't think it's like innocent.

01:11:18Marc:I'm not going to sit here and let you do that.

01:11:22Marc:What other people?

01:11:24Marc:I don't know.

01:11:25Marc:You tell me.

01:11:31Guest:I mean, I'm taking a minute.

01:11:34Guest:That was a lot.

01:11:37Marc:I've been around a long time.

01:11:38Marc:It's not like I haven't dealt with guys like you before.

01:11:41Marc:It's like I've talked to a lot of fucking people.

01:11:44Marc:I've been doing comedy a long fucking time.

01:11:46Marc:There's nobody that's that fucking original emotionally.

01:11:49Marc:And all of us are on the same spectrum of insecurity.

01:11:52Marc:And how people handle that insecurity is whatever it is.

01:11:54Guest:Right, but I still don't understand where that came from.

01:11:57Guest:What?

01:11:58What?

01:11:58Guest:What came from?

01:11:59Guest:That massively loaded thing you just said to me.

01:12:02Guest:But that's the crux of the problem.

01:12:03Marc:That's all I've been trying to say to you.

01:12:05Marc:That is what it is.

01:12:06Marc:That is why you get shitty.

01:12:08Marc:That I pretend.

01:12:09Marc:You're not pretending to do anything.

01:12:11Marc:What you're doing is you're using honesty as a sort of weird kind of like, you know, pokey thing.

01:12:17Guest:So I should never give you any constructive feedback?

01:12:21Marc:It's not a matter of constructive feedback.

01:12:22Marc:It's not constructive feedback.

01:12:24Marc:That's fucking behind me.

01:12:25Marc:You know, whatever we just did.

01:12:26Marc:But the truth of the matter is, is that throughout the career that I've had and whatever I've done on the comedy stage or whatever, you're slightly diminishing.

01:12:35Marc:It's just the way you are.

01:12:37Marc:Is that, you know, I can go up and do an hour and you'd be like, well, that one joke didn't.

01:12:41Marc:You know, so like you're just that guy.

01:12:43Marc:You can watch me do an hour and a half of comedy, and afterwards, yeah, that was pretty good.

01:12:47Marc:I liked that one bit.

01:12:48Marc:That was solid.

01:12:48Marc:But this other stuff's kind of weak.

01:12:50Marc:I didn't ask you for that.

01:12:51Marc:I know what I'm fucking up to.

01:12:52Marc:And I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how you choose to engage with me.

01:12:57Marc:And you know I'm a sensitive guy, and you're a sensitive guy.

01:13:00Marc:That's why we have problems.

01:13:02Marc:So now you know what it is.

01:13:05Guest:I'm just glad we got to this.

01:13:07Guest:I was hoping we'd get to this.

01:13:08Guest:I'm glad we did.

01:13:10Yeah.

01:13:10Guest:Yeah.

01:13:11Guest:This has to stay in, right?

01:13:13Marc:Probably.

01:13:13Guest:There's no way you could lose this.

01:13:15Guest:Come on.

01:13:16Guest:Okay.

01:13:16Guest:This is great.

01:13:17Guest:All right.

01:13:19Guest:So are we good?

01:13:20Guest:Do you still do that?

01:13:22Guest:What?

01:13:23Guest:That used to be always how we ended.

01:13:25Guest:I don't know.

01:13:25Guest:We don't have to end there.

01:13:26Guest:Are you all right?

01:13:27Guest:You can have your... Are we going to... I don't know.

01:13:30Guest:I feel like there's a debrief coming.

01:13:33Guest:Like a come down.

01:13:35Guest:Well, let's do it now.

01:13:35Guest:That's intense.

01:13:36Guest:That's really intense, Mark.

01:13:38Mm-hmm.

01:13:39Guest:Well, how did it land with you?

01:13:42Guest:Well, I'm not obtuse enough to not know, like, just take it in.

01:13:48Guest:Like, don't defend.

01:13:48Guest:Like, just take it all in.

01:13:49Guest:And so that's what I'm trying to do.

01:13:51Guest:I'm not saying that I haven't done it.

01:13:52Guest:I only know it for myself.

01:13:54Guest:But when you say you know I'm sensitive, it makes it sound like I'm cruel.

01:13:58Guest:Like, I'm doing it just to fuck with you.

01:14:00Guest:No, I don't.

01:14:00Guest:And the fact that after a set...

01:14:02Marc:you had as a comic if i said like yeah that one i didn't love or whatever you don't say that first there's some people that like you know like the reason you and i have any sort of tension you know in terms of how we engage is because we're very similar in that we're we're sort of like we're we're kind of guarded in a relatively deep way we are preemptively being

01:14:24Marc:defensive about certain things, and there are certain people that see you and certain people that don't.

01:14:32Marc:Now, you and I have the gift of being able to see each other because of our particular insecurities.

01:14:37Guest:Right, so you know what my insecurity says to me?

01:14:39Guest:What?

01:14:40Guest:Mark has far more than I could ever want, like from a career perspective, and the money that goes with that, how could anything I say possibly hurt his feelings?

01:14:49Guest:Well, that's crazy.

01:14:49Guest:I'm just telling you that's what it feels like over here.

01:14:52Marc:Okay, yeah, right, but it doesn't stop you from trying.

01:14:54Guest:How could little old me possibly affect you that bad?

01:15:00Guest:You're like, I'm not going to sit here and take this from you.

01:15:02Guest:Like, I'm just this walking asshole that's like you said looking to like I'm some like, you know, like some weird.

01:15:09Guest:It's instinctual.

01:15:10Guest:It's not.

01:15:10Guest:I'm not saying you're calculating.

01:15:12Guest:I'm just saying... Much like Tony Soprano, I can't help that I'm the... Is that what you're saying?

01:15:16Marc:No, no.

01:15:16Marc:I'm not saying that it's calculated.

01:15:18Marc:Because I've done the same thing.

01:15:20Marc:It's just... It's a sort of like... It's a diminishing thing that sort of keeps us... It comes out of insecurity, and I've done it myself.

01:15:32Marc:I've dismissed major accomplishments.

01:15:34Marc:Sometimes in interviews, I'm like, oh yeah, you did that.

01:15:37Marc:And as I've gotten older, I know that...

01:15:40Marc:It's hurtful, and I know that I've got to be careful.

01:15:43Marc:Years ago in the program, a famous playwright, I don't even know if he's still alive, when I first got sober in New York, and I had come to a meeting, and I was all lit up.

01:15:55Marc:I didn't understand the program, and I was talking about how I told my wife everything.

01:16:03Marc:You know, this is after I blew the marriage up and everything else.

01:16:06Marc:And, you know, it's like I did the program, man.

01:16:08Marc:I got honest.

01:16:10Marc:And I told her everything.

01:16:11Marc:And after the meeting, that guy, you know, that guy came up to me and he said, you know, using honesty as a weapon is not really being honest.

01:16:26Marc:And so you think that's who I am?

01:16:28Marc:No, I'm just saying that there is something about insecurity that when you feel less than, that just the way you framed me, you know me as a guy.

01:16:40Marc:So to sort of then compartmentalize me as this big wealthy dude.

01:16:45Marc:You're asking me to respond in the moment, and that's what's happening for me in the moment.

01:16:48Marc:Okay, but I'm telling you that the idea that part of you thinks like, you know me.

01:16:55Marc:You've known me for fucking years.

01:16:58Marc:I'm me.

01:16:59Marc:It doesn't matter how much fucking money I have.

01:17:01Marc:Stop yelling at me, Mark.

01:17:03Marc:Or how successful I am.

01:17:04Marc:But the idea that you're going to use that as an out, like, you know, how could anything you say affect me when I'm this guy who has all this stuff and you're nothing or some little guy?

01:17:15Marc:That's fucking crazy rationalization because you know me before.

01:17:20Guest:But it's what I'm experiencing right now.

01:17:22Guest:We can rationalize and you say that.

01:17:23Guest:And yes, we are like, I think very similar, which is why we butt heads a lot.

01:17:28Guest:But like we still like each other, right?

01:17:31Marc:Yeah.

01:17:32Marc:Okay.

01:17:32Marc:Guess what I'm telling you is that despite the fact that you see me as some guy that shouldn't be affected by what you say, I met you when I was nothing.

01:17:41Marc:And we've been through a lot of different things in our lives, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of devastating stuff.

01:17:47Marc:And the truth is, you know the thing where they say that fame doesn't really change people, that a person is who he is?

01:17:54Marc:I'm that guy.

01:17:56Marc:I'm just whatever, however I've grown or haven't grown since you first met me.

01:18:02Marc:I'm just that guy.

01:18:04Marc:I don't see myself as you see me.

01:18:06Marc:I'm doing fine, but I just told you earlier that I don't really have a sense of who I am in public because I always judge myself against everybody else.

01:18:14Marc:And when you judge yourself against other people, even if it's to say that you're nothing or that you're just this guy, you're still judging yourself against somebody else.

01:18:23Marc:There's a false humility to that, right?

01:18:25Marc:To say like, well, you're this big star.

01:18:26Marc:I'm just this fucking guy who's got three kids and I jump in the water with people.

01:18:31Marc:So that's another form of compare and despair.

01:18:37Marc:You've just sort of made it this place where you can operate from.

01:18:40Guest:I just feel like you could be a mean person, and I'm not generally a mean person.

01:18:44Guest:That's what I think the difference is.

01:18:46Marc:I can be a mean person because that's how I handle it.

01:18:49Marc:But, you know, so just because you're a mean person doesn't mean that you're not diminishing.

01:18:53Marc:It doesn't mean that you don't use honesty as a weapon.

01:18:56Marc:It doesn't mean that you're you're sort of a little bit dismissive, you know, in terms of like people that threaten you.

01:19:02Marc:I mean, like, fine, you're not mean, but it doesn't mean you're not fucking hurtful.

01:19:08Guest:That's accurate.

01:19:09Guest:Okay.

01:19:10Marc:I'll take that.

01:19:12Marc:All right.

01:19:13Guest:We good?

01:19:13Marc:We're good.

01:19:15Marc:No, it was great seeing you.

01:19:16Marc:I'm glad we had the talk.

01:19:17Marc:Are we going to cry?

01:19:18Marc:I don't want to cry.

01:19:20Guest:Should I come to your show tonight?

01:19:22Marc:Yeah, you're doing a guest spot, right?

01:19:24Guest:No, I'm definitely not doing a guest spot.

01:19:27Marc:Come on, just do the old 10.

01:19:28Marc:I'm not doing it.

01:19:30Marc:No, yeah, of course you're coming.

01:19:31Marc:And afterwards, I can't wait to see which jokes didn't land.

01:19:35Guest:I will say nothing but positive glowing things about anything I ever fucking see of you ever again if I want to maintain some kind of relationship with you, apparently.

01:19:44Guest:No, I don't think that – But what if you just said that?

01:19:46Guest:What if when I – if I did that unconsciously and I said – and I said blah, blah, blah.

01:19:52Guest:Why don't you just go, hey, man, like that hurts.

01:19:54Guest:Like do you have to do that instead of like not say anything and then like –

01:19:59Marc:whatever be be secretly angry at me for however long and then i don't know if it's secretly angry what i do is i do curt texts and uh you know and i manage a boundary i'm not going to sit there and then give you the the sort of the the satisfaction or the the honesty of like you you know like what are we married you like you're going to come up to after me and goes yeah yeah that was pretty good that's a pretty good show but like that one thing didn't work right

01:20:24Marc:Every time you do that, I'm supposed to go, I'm a little hurtful.

01:20:28Guest:Now we're in circles.

01:20:30Guest:Yes, you could say it.

01:20:32Guest:Fine, fine.

01:20:33Guest:I don't need glowing things from you all the time.

01:20:35Guest:I know when I do it.

01:20:36Guest:You were great in glow, speaking of glowing things.

01:20:39Guest:Fucking travesty they didn't bring that show back.

01:20:41Guest:Glow is your best work.

01:20:42Guest:Dude, the thing about...

01:20:45Marc:why it bothers me is because usually you're right you find innately find the things that i'm insecure about and i can do that with you too you know that is the thing is that like it's fine to be honest and you can speak your mind but you know because we are similar and because you are insecure is the same your brain and it will immediately go i know you know how i felt about that accent

01:21:10Marc:I felt OK about it.

01:21:12Marc:And I know, you know, in terms of Reservoir Dogs, you know, the midget thing was what it was.

01:21:16Marc:But, you know, I made a choice to lean into it.

01:21:19Marc:But, you know, you are able to find the things that I, you know, am a little squirrely about in my own self and I've learned to live with.

01:21:26Marc:But then you come along with your weird, perceptive power of my own insecurity and pop at it.

01:21:32Marc:And you can't explain that.

01:21:33Marc:It's not on purpose.

01:21:34Marc:It's just because we are similar and we have some history.

01:21:40Marc:But that's what that is.

01:21:42Marc:Look, I know when I do a good set.

01:21:44Marc:I know which jokes don't work.

01:21:46Marc:I know when I try something, if it didn't pan out.

01:21:49Marc:I know all these things.

01:21:50Marc:I'm not fooling myself.

01:21:51Marc:So in the same way, you must think on some level in your unconscious or in your instincts that he's a big shot.

01:21:58Marc:Maybe he doesn't really know how much he sucked in that one thing.

01:22:00Guest:No, I think you've given me something to think about.

01:22:04Guest:I don't think I've heard it put quite the way you've put it.

01:22:09Guest:You've actually taught me something.

01:22:11Guest:I think I will honestly, like, you know, first is recognize you have a problem, right?

01:22:16Guest:And then you kind of do something and you notice it, then you kind of stop doing it.

01:22:20Guest:It's a tricky thing when you're insecure and empathetic.

01:22:23Guest:Yes.

01:22:25Guest:And that's not like, that's not like, that's not who I want to be in the world.

01:22:28Guest:That's not how I want my kids to be.

01:22:29Guest:You know what I mean?

01:22:30Guest:I wouldn't want them to be mean to people like that or always looking for the one thing.

01:22:34Guest:So you've given me something to think about.

01:22:35Guest:All right, buddy.

01:22:36Guest:It was good talking to you.

01:22:37Guest:See you later.

01:22:39Marc:So that got intense.

01:22:43Marc:And it surprised me.

01:22:45Marc:The emotions of it surprised me.

01:22:46Marc:The emotions coming up surprised me.

01:22:49Marc:But it was real in that moment.

01:22:51Marc:And I hadn't really felt that kind of like, you know, that anger, that type of anger come up in me in a long time.

01:23:00Marc:You know, and I grew up with the...

01:23:02Marc:With that sort of diminishing type of position from my mother.

01:23:06Marc:But, you know, that was it.

01:23:08Marc:You know, that was going to be it.

01:23:10Marc:And then he wanted to do another one.

01:23:14Marc:Or at least to kind of, he wanted to reflect on what happened in the conversation you just heard.

01:23:21Marc:And then, you know, talk a little bit more.

01:23:24Marc:And I agree to it because, you know, we're friends.

01:23:27Marc:So this is the coda.

01:23:29Marc:This is the second part.

01:23:32Guest:So it's been less than 24 hours since I talked to you, right?

01:23:41Guest:So since I've talked to you, or as you say, yelled, we've gone and done a show.

01:23:52Guest:I've done a show.

01:23:53Marc:I offered you a guest spot, but I think rightfully you didn't take it.

01:23:57Marc:And the show was good.

01:24:00Guest:And I think, you know, afterwards, I think, I think afterwards, um, you know, that was a dig too, right?

01:24:08Guest:You notice you just like right away, there's a dig too, rightfully so.

01:24:11Guest:Okay.

01:24:11Guest:Just laying the playing, laying the groundwork.

01:24:14Marc:No, I understand your point and I've agreed to do this and we don't even know if it'll, it'll make the cut.

01:24:18Marc:I really hope it makes the cut.

01:24:20Guest:I feel like we were both different people than we were less than 24 hours ago.

01:24:24Marc:I think we're the same people.

01:24:25Marc:We just understand each other better.

01:24:27Marc:Yes.

01:24:28Marc:Yeah, I get it.

01:24:29Marc:And I think that after the show last night, you respected what we talked about.

01:24:35Marc:And I volunteered what I thought were the weak points of the set.

01:24:41Marc:And then you weren't even that quick to agree.

01:24:44Marc:And it was good.

01:24:44Marc:It was good.

01:24:45Marc:There's a lot of progress there.

01:24:47Guest:Yes.

01:24:48Marc:Yeah.

01:24:49Marc:And I think that made me a little more comfortable.

01:24:52Marc:And also, sometimes digs with certain people who I know well, if you listen to the podcast, there are certain people that I definitely poke and bully, and it's fun.

01:25:03Marc:Not for the person getting bullied.

01:25:06Marc:Ask Gottfried, and he will tell you that he has a great time on my show.

01:25:09Marc:godfrey the comedian sure there's just certain people i have a dynamic with where the ball busting goes back and forth and it's it's very outright it's very plain right like it's sort of like oh that's clearly a joke

01:25:20Guest:But with you and I, the ball busting is not okay when it's coming from me because I clearly have poked something that's... No, because you're not doing it in a fun way.

01:25:29Marc:See, for me to say, I offered you a spot and rightfully... That's funny.

01:25:34Marc:There's a tone to it.

01:25:36Marc:Yours is just stealth.

01:25:37Marc:It's not a joke.

01:25:38Marc:It's not ball busting.

01:25:39Marc:It's kind of a...

01:25:44Marc:subliminal it's subliminal bullying it's not like it's sort of like oh okay so that's yeah so it's not the same but I will say that I was surprised at the emotion of you know what happened yesterday in terms of me kind of getting upset and then you said something interesting to me after you go like it's like you're like my dad what's that about

01:26:14Guest:My dad was a rager.

01:26:16Guest:My dad was sober a long time.

01:26:19Guest:Was definitely a rager before he got sober.

01:26:21Guest:Yeah.

01:26:22Guest:And what little memories I have of him as a small, small person.

01:26:25Guest:And then, you know, you're an older Jewish guy with the mustache.

01:26:29Guest:Yeah.

01:26:30Guest:And I snapped.

01:26:32Guest:And you snapped, and it's very intense.

01:26:36Guest:Yeah.

01:26:37Guest:And I don't think I've ever made that connection before, Mark reminds me of my dad, because if anything, you're more of an older brother to me than a dad figure, right?

01:26:43Guest:Yeah.

01:26:44Guest:Because of proximity to age and just who you are as a comic to me.

01:26:48Guest:I never would think of that, but I was like, oh, wow, this is like Joe Davis intensity.

01:26:54Yeah.

01:26:54Marc:Well, yeah.

01:26:55Marc:Well, you know I'm intense.

01:26:56Marc:And like, you know, whatever we're doing here now and we're relaxed, you know, I'm not going to let you reframe the reality of both our personalities.

01:27:05Marc:And I think that what was interesting to me, like I apologize for getting worked up and having that reaction.

01:27:12Marc:Maybe I'd been bottling up, you know, too much resentment over the years of...

01:27:16Marc:our friendship and i think that what you said uh after which was uh you know maybe next time just say this hurt my feelings i think you know i'll take that to heart and you know and i'll get that but i do think that there was something you said i think we're ultimately maybe you're not a ragey guy but i still think emotionally we're very similar

01:27:43Guest:I think we're extremely similar, and I think we sat down to breakfast this morning, and I was hoping that it would go like this, right?

01:27:52Guest:Because I had a lot of thoughts, and I had two people that knew I was doing this, right?

01:27:59Guest:Because I haven't told a lot of folks, I'll tell them when it comes out.

01:28:02Guest:But my good buddy Dario and my wife, and they're like, how'd it go?

01:28:04Guest:And I'm like, I don't know.

01:28:06Marc:It was good for like an hour, you have one little problem.

01:28:12Guest:Well, I'm just saying, did I fly to St.

01:28:16Guest:Louis to get yelled at by Marc Maron?

01:28:18Marc:You can't, it's just not the way it was.

01:28:22Guest:I know, but I'm just telling you that's how it landed on me, and my feelings were really hurt, and I wasn't sure what happened, and the way I said to you this morning at breakfast was it felt like where I was sitting, like, hey, here's me poking fun at you with a little butter knife, and you've got a machete or a chainsaw, and it's like, oh,

01:28:38Guest:But you started the morning by saying, hey, maybe I did overreact.

01:28:41Guest:I'm like, cool, that's all I needed you to say.

01:28:43Guest:It was like, cool, I appreciate that you understand that you might have hurt my feelings a little bit.

01:28:48Marc:Right, and I think over the course of our relationship, the sort of sensitivity of it is that there was no butter knife.

01:28:56Marc:I'm not going to let you play it off like you were somehow just making jokes.

01:29:00Guest:In my mind, that's what I think I'm doing.

01:29:02Guest:I'm saying you've given me something to think about.

01:29:04Guest:Maybe I am a lot meaner than I think I am.

01:29:06Marc:It's not even me.

01:29:08Marc:It's not mean.

01:29:10Marc:What I'm saying is for whatever reason, whether it's your dad or your mom or your three sisters, whatever reason... I have bottled up eggs.

01:29:19Marc:No, no.

01:29:21Marc:It's just the nature of your defensiveness is...

01:29:24Marc:is about disarming people.

01:29:27Marc:You can either do that through humor or you can get them a little off kilter by innately sensing their vulnerabilities out of some sort of mutant empathy and just poking.

01:29:39Marc:You may be poking with a butter knife, but these weren't failed jokes.

01:29:43Marc:It was just – it was the way that you – and what you bring up and the tone in which you do it.

01:29:49Marc:So I'm not going to say like – I'm not going to let it kind of, you know, come off as sort of like, you know, we were just busting balls and I lost my shit.

01:29:57Marc:I mean, you know, ultimately the moment I lost my shit was as an example of what you do.

01:30:03Marc:And you clearly knew and know it was true because –

01:30:07Marc:it's just a way of slight social undermining that gives you a little leg up.

01:30:20Guest:Okay, how about this?

01:30:21Guest:The same, because I did chat with Stacey, my wife, a little bit about this.

01:30:25Guest:Remember how you said, I don't see myself that way?

01:30:27Guest:So same thing with me.

01:30:29Guest:I don't see it that way.

01:30:31Guest:I don't, like to me, it's like...

01:30:34Guest:it is ball busting or it is whatever and it's like no dude like you have because people have said that to me before like dude it's not just what you said it's kind of how you said it yeah and again like I know people think I'm a dick like that's never been that's not a mystery well that's but this is the I'm trying to explore the core of that dickishness

01:30:51Marc:This is the core of your dickishness.

01:30:54Marc:It's the way you said it.

01:30:56Marc:It may not seem like you said it.

01:30:58Marc:If you've had that, you say, no, I'm a dick.

01:31:01Marc:I know what kind of dick I am.

01:31:03Marc:Do you know what kind of dick you are?

01:31:04Guest:Well, apparently I don't.

01:31:05Guest:That's what I'm saying is that's where we've gone with this is that I think I'm using a butter knife.

01:31:10Guest:You're like, no, Matt, and that's bullshit.

01:31:12Guest:That's the part that

01:31:13Guest:I'm trying to take in that when I can get past the part where my feelings hurt, it's like, no, dude, you need to take that in that like you think you're being this harmless dude, but you could be really hurtful.

01:31:22Guest:And so that's the part I'm trying to own.

01:31:24Guest:Like, okay, cool.

01:31:25Guest:I can maybe not say things that would necessarily be –

01:31:30Marc:that that sliding or diminishing or or or uh you know kind of uh taking it down a notch you know like you know it's sort of drawing attention to the the sort of uh what wasn't great as opposed to you know leading with the the good foot right well and like what we said this morning i said the thing that that i awoke to at 5 30 was like wait a minute

01:31:53Guest:the first thing Mark said when I sat down was taking a shot at me.

01:31:56Marc:Yes.

01:31:57Marc:Yes.

01:31:58Marc:But you don't, it's like, but it was so clear.

01:32:02Guest:It was so clear.

01:32:02Marc:And you completely knew and expected me that from me.

01:32:07Marc:Right.

01:32:08Marc:So like now, now taking a shot,

01:32:10Marc:Which is bullying, and I was trying to be funny, and I was almost trying to get a laugh out of you, but I know it's hurtful, and probably more hurtful in this situation than what I'm used to really acknowledging.

01:32:22Marc:Taking a shot is not what you do.

01:32:26Marc:What do I do?

01:32:27Marc:It's sort of like... If you're going to use the butter knife analogy, it's like you don't quite know you just got hit until it's sort of like, oh, okay, shit.

01:32:39Marc:What I did was clearly...

01:32:42Marc:a shot and I guess it was much like the ones you do okay fine fine when I sit down and the first thing you say is hey I know you like that movie but did you show anybody first I mean did you really that was kind of funny but I think the thing that was more similar to you is sort of like well for me like I didn't quite get it because I didn't understand the sport so I'm assuming it's probably for people in the sport right for the most part

01:33:07Guest:But I thought you might enjoy it, and it gives us something to talk about career-wise.

01:33:10Marc:But we're not going to have that conversation.

01:33:12Marc:And I did enjoy it.

01:33:13Marc:Right.

01:33:13Marc:But you made the point.

01:33:14Marc:It was like, well, at the very beginning, I kind of put that thing there about how many miles it was.

01:33:18Marc:And I didn't remember that at all.

01:33:20Marc:But those were similar to the type of shots you take.

01:33:23Marc:Yes.

01:33:23Marc:Right.

01:33:23Marc:And that's all I wanted to – that's part of – So we're similar.

01:33:28Marc:Right.

01:33:29Marc:Right.

01:33:30Marc:But apparently, like, I'd had enough.

01:33:32Marc:Yes.

01:33:33Yes.

01:33:35Guest:Like, after an hour of talking to you, I'm like, enough of this guy.

01:33:42Guest:But the built-up angst and all of it, I mean, again, like...

01:33:48Guest:guys like us sometimes aren't friends because we kind of see it in each other right away.

01:33:52Guest:Yeah.

01:33:53Marc:But because we bonded initially over sobriety, and then... Well, I think, like, I always had the feeling of, and one of the reasons why I think we still remain friends is, like, I think from the day I met you, I had this sort of, like, who the fuck does this guy think he is?

01:34:09Marc:You know what I mean?

01:34:10Marc:Because you kind of had this, like, weird kind of, like, I'm all good.

01:34:14Marc:I get this swagger, and I'm like, no, you're not.

01:34:16Yeah.

01:34:17Guest:But you understand where all of that comes from.

01:34:19Marc:Sure, we explained it.

01:34:21Marc:I think all I need to do here in this coda that you wanted to save face somehow is...

01:34:30Marc:I apologize for the outburst.

01:34:33Marc:I got a little emotional.

01:34:36Guest:I think this makes everything better for both of us, don't you think?

01:34:41Guest:The coda.

01:34:43Guest:I think that's a nice word.

01:34:43Guest:And you've done it before, right?

01:34:45Guest:It's not unprecedented to have the coda.

01:34:47Guest:No, I have.

01:34:47Guest:I'm trying to remember when.

01:34:50Guest:Maybe once or twice.

01:34:51Marc:But there's been times where I've been on the mics and we've turned them off and we've been like, well, let's finish it.

01:35:00Marc:It's happened before.

01:35:01Guest:Yeah.

01:35:03Guest:Do you want to plug the movie?

01:35:05Guest:Sure.

01:35:06Guest:So listen, if you are interested in learning about this crazy, wacky world of obstacle racing, I have a movie out called The World's Toughest 100 Mile Race.

01:35:13Guest:You can find it on YouTube.

01:35:14Guest:Just Google World's Toughest Mudder documentary, and it should come right up.

01:35:18Guest:And if you're interested in all things obstacle racing, you can check out Obstacle Racing Media.

01:35:22Marc:Yeah, I would do that as well.

01:35:24Marc:I would also, like, if you're not familiar with it, really kind of look into how the races work, because I think it'll add to your experience.

01:35:31Marc:Yes.

01:35:31Guest:And don't sleep on that first 30 seconds.

01:35:34Guest:Don't get the popcorn.

01:35:36Guest:Watch the introduction.

01:35:37Guest:All right, buddy.

01:35:38Guest:Love you, buddy.

01:35:38Guest:Love you too, man.

01:35:39Guest:Bye.

01:35:45Marc:All right, so I guess that's resolution.

01:35:47Marc:You know, we're still in contact.

01:35:51Marc:You can find all of Matt's stuff at obstacleracingmedia.com.

01:35:56Marc:Hang out a minute.

01:35:59Marc:Folks, if you're a full Marin subscriber, you've been getting bonus episodes every Tuesday since we started doing WTF Plus.

01:36:07Marc:But this year, we also started doing the Friday show every week.

01:36:10Marc:And if you don't know what that is, WTF producer Brendan McDonald and our Air America Radio colleague Chris Lopresto host an end-of-the-week wrap-up show where they talk about behind-the-scenes WTF stuff and whatever else is on their minds.

01:36:24Guest:So sad to hear that this lovely story that Mark has brought up a few times about this interspecies video is complete bullshit.

01:36:35Guest:Oh my God.

01:36:37Guest:All right.

01:36:37Guest:So I, this is what happened with that story.

01:36:41Guest:Oh my God.

01:36:43Guest:So, crazily, I didn't plan for this.

01:36:46Guest:I didn't tell him, like, I didn't remind him, hey, you brought up this turtle thing in the talk with Peter Sarsgaard, right?

01:36:53Guest:Because he brought it up with Peter Sarsgaard, and I was like, turtle video, whatever this is.

01:36:58Guest:And then he sends me his intro and I listened to it and it's the turtle thing comes up again.

01:37:05Guest:I'm like, Oh wow.

01:37:07Guest:Like, so that's going to lead in to the interview.

01:37:10Guest:And I literally had the thought in the moment.

01:37:13Guest:I'm like, there's no way this is a fucking real video, but I can't, I'm, I do not want to look it up.

01:37:21Guest:Like I want plausible deniability for this.

01:37:25Guest:Right.

01:37:26Yeah.

01:37:26Guest:Like, I want to be able to make this happen because it creates a very nice through line from the intro to Peter Sarsgaard and, like, the things that Mark is currently kind of concerned about, right?

01:37:39Guest:Right, right.

01:37:40Guest:So then Tuesday morning, I get a text.

01:37:43Guest:It's like 7 o'clock his time.

01:37:45Guest:It must have been something he, like, woke up to.

01:37:47Guest:Oh, no.

01:37:49Guest:And it just says, Shark turtle video was fake.

01:37:53Guest:There's no hope.

01:37:54Ha, ha, ha, ha.

01:37:55Guest:So he sends me this video, which is the fact check showing that this video was fake.

01:38:06Guest:So I press play on this thing.

01:38:09Guest:And the first thing it shows is the fake version of this video.

01:38:14Guest:It's the fakest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life.

01:38:20Guest:So I watched this and I could not help it.

01:38:23Guest:I had to, like, take my shot on Mark.

01:38:26Guest:I said, it doesn't even matter if that was real or not.

01:38:32Guest:I said, if it was real, my immediate reaction to that video is, oh, look, a shark is trying to eat that turtle.

01:38:43Guest:And lucky for the turtle, there was a boat there.

01:38:47Guest:Like...

01:38:48Guest:In no circumstance would I ever have watched that video and thought, look at that shark trying to save that turtle.

01:38:57Guest:Like, no, he's clearly trying to eat it.

01:39:00Marc:There's a new Friday show tomorrow on The Full Marin, and then we'll have a special presentation of the Friday show for everyone on New Year's Day.

01:39:07Marc:To subscribe to The Full Marin so you can get every bonus episode plus all WTF episodes ad-free, go to the link in the episode description to sign up or go to wtfpod.com.

01:39:18Marc:And click on WTF+.

01:39:22Marc:Yes.

01:39:23Marc:Guitar time.

01:39:24Marc:Stratocaster.

01:39:26Marc:No pedals.

01:39:41No pedals.

01:39:46Thank you.

01:40:23.

01:40:51.

01:41:01Yeah.

01:41:29Guest:Boomer lives.

01:41:30Guest:Monkey and La Fonda.

01:41:33Guest:Cat angels everywhere.