Episode 1498 - Blitz Bazawule

Episode 1498 • Released December 21, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:11Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:14Marc:What's happening?

00:00:14Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:16Marc:This is my podcast.

00:00:18Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:20Marc:How's it going?

00:00:21Marc:Are you ready?

00:00:22Marc:Are you packed?

00:00:24Marc:Are you heading out today, tomorrow, Saturday?

00:00:27Marc:Are you already there?

00:00:29Marc:Is it coming down on you?

00:00:31Marc:The weight of the festivities, the glorious and exciting, uplifting weight of the festivities with family.

00:00:41Marc:How's the tree?

00:00:43Marc:Is the tree nice?

00:00:44Marc:Did you get a good tree?

00:00:45Marc:Did you decorate it good?

00:00:48Marc:Did you get some new ornaments?

00:00:49Marc:What's happening?

00:00:51Marc:Sorry, I'm trying to engage with my non-Jewish friends who are doing the Christmas show.

00:00:59Marc:Are those for the Christmas?

00:01:01Marc:That's an amazing scene in the film Boogie Nights.

00:01:06Marc:Oh, are those for the Christmas?

00:01:10Marc:Don Cheadle with arguably the best line in the movie.

00:01:15Marc:Oh, are those for the Christmas?

00:01:18Marc:Before blood splatters everywhere.

00:01:22Marc:Merry Christmas to you.

00:01:24Marc:Today I talked to Blitz Bazawule.

00:01:27Marc:He's the director of the new movie musical version of The Color Purple, which I saw.

00:01:32Marc:He's a filmmaker and artist originally from Ghana.

00:01:35Marc:And he was also one of the directors on Beyonce's musical film, Black is King.

00:01:41Marc:And I loved the movie.

00:01:42Marc:I like, I love his movies, to be honest with you.

00:01:46Marc:But I'll get into that in a minute.

00:01:47Marc:Los Angeles.

00:01:48Marc:I'm at the Elysian Theater tomorrow, December 22nd.

00:01:51Marc:I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on Thursday, December 28th.

00:01:55Marc:And I'm at Largo on Tuesday, January 9th.

00:01:58Marc:Then I'm in San Diego at the Observatory North Park on Saturday, January 27th for two shows.

00:02:05Marc:San Francisco at the Castro Theater on Saturday, February 3rd.

00:02:09Marc:Portland, Maine.

00:02:10Marc:I'm at the State Theater on Thursday, March 7th.

00:02:13Marc:Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston at the Chevalier.

00:02:18Marc:Wait, let me say it right.

00:02:19Marc:Chevalier Theater on Friday, March 8th.

00:02:23Marc:Providence, Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday, March 9th.

00:02:27Marc:Tarrytown, New York at the Tarrytown Music Hall on Sunday, March 10th.

00:02:31Marc:Atlanta, Georgia.

00:02:33Marc:I'm at the Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd.

00:02:37Marc:And I'll be in Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, April 18th as part of the Moon Tower Comedy Festival.

00:02:43Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets.

00:02:48Marc:A radio legend passed away a couple of nights ago.

00:02:52Marc:Jim Ladd was one of the great radio personalities of the Los Angeles region.

00:03:00Marc:He also did an episode of this show.

00:03:02Marc:He was also on an episode of my show, Marin.

00:03:05Marc:The episode he did, the episode he did of WTF was episode 658 from November 2015.

00:03:11Marc:It's available in the free feed right now.

00:03:14Marc:Rest in peace, Jim Ladd.

00:03:17Marc:Radio.

00:03:18Marc:Radio was something.

00:03:20Marc:Radio was everything for a long time.

00:03:23Marc:I think I learned how to talk on these mics on radio.

00:03:27Marc:And you got to give respect to the legends of that medium.

00:03:33Marc:Jim Ladd.

00:03:34Marc:Rest in peace, buddy.

00:03:36Marc:So listen, you guys.

00:03:38Marc:I wrote a joke.

00:03:40Marc:Yeah, I wrote a joke.

00:03:41Marc:I don't always write jokes.

00:03:43Marc:I kind of do bits.

00:03:44Marc:It was a pretty easy one to do.

00:03:46Marc:So I did it.

00:03:48Marc:I said on stage last night that Donald Trump used a line from Hitler.

00:03:58Marc:Yeah, he said that immigrants are destroying the blood of our country.

00:04:02Marc:Now, look, I know Donald Trump's a racist and it's not the racism that bothers me.

00:04:07Marc:It's it's it's the plagiarism, people.

00:04:09Marc:I mean, if you're going to take someone's line, you got to either source it correctly or cite your your reference or or just have the courage to just give the author credit.

00:04:22Marc:I mean, you know, come on, Trump.

00:04:24Marc:Just be like, you know, as Hitler said is a nice way.

00:04:28Marc:You could set it up like that or or one of my heroes, Hitler, put it this way.

00:04:34Marc:It's just don't be a coward and plagiarism is bad.

00:04:38Marc:That was the gist of it.

00:04:39Marc:I thought it was pretty funny.

00:04:42Marc:I thought it was pretty funny.

00:04:44Marc:So many of you people know that I have a I would say a latent argument.

00:04:52Marc:thing or love for musicals.

00:04:56Marc:And the reason I say latent is because I don't really seek them out.

00:05:01Marc:But when I do experience them, they cause me to feel things.

00:05:07Marc:And I think in this conversation with Blitz, we kind of come upon the reality that I believe the reason that I cry almost immediately when any large group of people start singing, whether it's a musical, a choir, not so much a band, but just something about the vulnerability of musicals.

00:05:30Marc:I don't know, man.

00:05:31Marc:I think we figured out that I don't I'm not great at generating joy from myself, from the inside.

00:05:38Marc:But when joy is thrust upon me, my body shudders and experiences emotions that I want to stop.

00:05:48Marc:But I know they're good and I stay with them.

00:05:51Marc:I don't really want them to stop, but for some reason I'm a little ashamed of them.

00:05:54Marc:I don't know.

00:05:55Marc:That's another journey.

00:05:57Marc:But that seems to be the thing that happens to me when it comes to musicals.

00:06:02Marc:And I've been thinking about it.

00:06:04Marc:I think I really wish that I was the type of entertainer

00:06:09Marc:that could do a little song and dance occasionally.

00:06:11Marc:I'm not talking about singing a rock song with my guitar and a band.

00:06:16Marc:I'm talking about, like, doing a little, you know, kind of a jaunty tune and maybe, you know, kind of dancing around a little bit and, you know, spreading my arms open, like... Like, even that.

00:06:29Marc:Maybe I missed...

00:06:31Marc:Maybe I didn't.

00:06:33Marc:Maybe there's still an opportunity.

00:06:35Marc:Maybe I should work out a musical number from a musical with another performer and do the dance number that goes along with it.

00:06:43Marc:Maybe that should be on my bucket list.

00:06:45Marc:Maybe that's what I'm avoiding.

00:06:46Marc:Maybe I need to do that.

00:06:48Marc:Maybe that'll change my entire disposition around entertaining and having feelings and love and

00:06:55Marc:and joy for the audience and, and just really giving people a, a nice emotionally well-rounded good time.

00:07:04Marc:That's what I'm missing.

00:07:05Marc:That's what I need to do to, without irony, do a musical number or two from a musical with dance steps.

00:07:14Marc:But I'm putting that on the list.

00:07:15Marc:I'm putting that in my mind.

00:07:17Marc:I'm putting it out there to you that I will manifest it.

00:07:21Marc:I will.

00:07:24Marc:Now, look, talking to Blitz Bazawule, he hasn't made a lot of movies, so I was able to really kind of dig in.

00:07:31Marc:And I had some realizations, and these were not realizations that I haven't had in some form before.

00:07:38Marc:I watched a couple of his short films.

00:07:41Marc:And I watched his first feature, The Burial of Kojo, which he shot in Ghana, which is where he's from, which is where his brain developed, which is where his sense of poetry, mythology, storytelling, and color comes from.

00:07:56Marc:And I had this realization, which I've had before.

00:07:59Marc:I had it when I watched Reservation Dogs, that when you look at the world...

00:08:06Marc:through the point of view of an artist from another place, another culture, a completely different visual sensibility because of that.

00:08:15Marc:You know, that's how you see or experience that culture.

00:08:18Marc:If you're not going to go there, I'm not going to go to Ghana.

00:08:21Marc:And I just had this kind of beautiful experience with Blitz's first movie, The Burial of Kojo, around the poetry, how he structures story, you know, how he sees...

00:08:33Marc:composition and color.

00:08:35Marc:And it really is why movies are so important and why art is so important.

00:08:42Marc:Again, is that it connects you with the humanity of the world, of others, of the point of view of others, the point of view of people that you think are different than you or come from a different place.

00:08:52Marc:Something you'll never see and can't imagine if you won't travel there and kind of entrench yourself or engage yourself with a different culture on that culture's terms.

00:09:02Marc:But you can do it through a movie.

00:09:05Marc:And it was kind of mind-blowing to me to kind of put that together and then to move through his other work, to watch Black is King, the Beyonce concept musical, I guess concept album musical.

00:09:18Marc:Yeah.

00:09:18Marc:And then to watch The Color Purple, which I saw in New York at a friends and family screening, cast and crew, friends and family type of screening.

00:09:26Marc:It was spectacular because many people from the cast of this new film were there.

00:09:31Marc:And many people were in the audience from the several versions of the Broadway musical.

00:09:37Marc:Some of the original cast was there.

00:09:39Marc:It was very emotional for some of the cast of the film to meet their counterparts from the past.

00:09:45Marc:There was an amazing moment between...

00:09:48Marc:Danielle Brooks, who plays Sophia, and the woman who originated on stage who inspired Danielle to pursue a life in theater.

00:10:00Marc:And we all witnessed that.

00:10:02Marc:And Fantasia Barino, who was on stage with it, is also in the movie.

00:10:07Marc:She plays Celie.

00:10:09Marc:And it was just to be at that screening...

00:10:12Marc:was kind of spectacular to see the emotional depth of the impact of that show on this new cast as humans and as performers was really something.

00:10:27Marc:There is a tradition to it almost, a history to it, a story that's been told several ways from the book, from Spielberg's film, from several versions on Broadway.

00:10:37Marc:And it's a story that's pretty dug in to black culture.

00:10:41Marc:in a way that spans, you know, generations.

00:10:46Marc:So it was quite an experience to watch it that way.

00:10:50Marc:And I'll be honest with you, I loved it.

00:10:52Marc:I don't really necessarily know how to judge musicals, but I thought it was great.

00:10:57Marc:And after talking to Blitz and knowing where he comes from visually and intellectually and how he sourced the book more than anything else, it was kind of like a very personal and very unique story

00:11:10Marc:vision for this new version of the color purple.

00:11:14Marc:And I, and I appreciated it.

00:11:16Marc:I've been going to the cinema quite often.

00:11:20Marc:I went to the movie theater on the big screen to see poor things.

00:11:23Marc:That's the Yorgos Lanthimos, Emma Stone, Mark Ruffalo, you know, the Gerard Carmichael, many, many guests of mine.

00:11:35Marc:Rami Youssef was in it.

00:11:37Marc:Yeah.

00:11:38Yeah.

00:11:38Marc:I'd like to.

00:11:39Marc:Willem Dafoe was was in it.

00:11:42Marc:I've talked to all of them and all of them were quite good.

00:11:46Marc:Willem did not like me.

00:11:47Marc:It doesn't matter.

00:11:48Marc:The film is amazing.

00:11:50Marc:It's quite a vision.

00:11:52Marc:And you expect that from Yorgos Lanthimos.

00:11:54Marc:You expect something surprising, brain bending, over the top.

00:11:59Marc:A bit crazy, very surreal in parts, but this thing had a real heart to it and a real journey and a real transformation.

00:12:09Marc:And I think it's his best movie.

00:12:12Marc:And I think Emma Stone is fucking amazing.

00:12:15Marc:And Ruffalo was great.

00:12:17Marc:was a great comic character.

00:12:20Marc:And I'll tell you, man, to see poor things on a giant screen down at AMC was fucking great.

00:12:25Marc:And I had forgotten what it was like to really experience movies.

00:12:32Marc:I mean, ever since Oppenheimer at the IMAX and Barbie as well, I was like, this is how it was.

00:12:38Marc:This is how we used to see movies when I was a kid.

00:12:41Marc:This is how big they should be.

00:12:43Marc:And it makes a difference.

00:12:44Marc:And there is something about going to the movies.

00:12:46Marc:It doesn't matter how many people are in the movies.

00:12:48Marc:There's something that happens to your focus.

00:12:50Marc:There's something that closes you in, that insulates you, that puts you in the box with the film.

00:12:56Marc:Not like checking your cake.

00:12:59Marc:Not like seeing if the pasta is ready.

00:13:01Marc:Not checking your phone.

00:13:03Marc:Not feeding your cat.

00:13:04Marc:Not pausing.

00:13:05Marc:That the fully immersive effect of going to the movies is still pretty fucking great.

00:13:13Marc:And it burrows into you.

00:13:15Marc:And it humanizes you, man.

00:13:18Marc:Beats you down with the wizardry of illusion.

00:13:23Marc:Can you dig it?

00:13:27Marc:Okay.

00:13:29Marc:Blitz Bazabule is a filmmaker, a musician, also a novelist.

00:13:36Marc:The Color Purple opens in theaters everywhere on Christmas Day.

00:13:41Marc:I recommend it highly.

00:13:44Marc:And this is me in conversation with Blitz.

00:13:52Marc:I saw the movie.

00:13:56Marc:I saw The Color Purple at the screening in New York.

00:13:59Marc:I enjoyed it.

00:14:00Marc:Oh, thanks.

00:14:00Marc:And then I knew I was going to talk to you.

00:14:04Marc:So then I kind of like, you know, what do I know about West Africa?

00:14:12Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:14:13Marc:And then I realized, like, all right, so...

00:14:15Marc:So here's what I do.

00:14:16Marc:I go, I got records, you know, and I'm like, I'm thinking like, you know, when I was a kid, King Sonny a day.

00:14:22Marc:Yeah.

00:14:22Marc:And then, uh, Baba Mal, those early Senegal records, right?

00:14:26Marc:Great stuff.

00:14:27Marc:Yeah.

00:14:27Marc:And then, uh, and then I realized, well, I got this, um, uh,

00:14:31Marc:uh, Lagos, uh, 1970 funk juju collection.

00:14:36Marc:Great era.

00:14:37Marc:Right.

00:14:38Marc:Great.

00:14:38Marc:So I listened to that double record.

00:14:40Marc:Then I had some old, uh, core music, which was not necessarily relevant, but I did it.

00:14:45Marc:Yeah.

00:14:46Marc:And then somehow or another, I got, uh, cause I know you paint that guy.

00:14:49Marc:You know, I landed in my head that I was thinking of, uh,

00:14:52Marc:Basquiat's Self-Portrait with Ty.

00:14:55Marc:Oh, yes.

00:14:56Marc:And then I looked at the Henry Taylor book.

00:14:58Marc:Okay.

00:14:58Marc:Because I just saw that.

00:15:00Marc:Good ones.

00:15:00Marc:And then, you know, and I watched your early film.

00:15:02Marc:So, you know, like, I had to... Because when I was watching, not The Color Purple, but when I watched...

00:15:09Marc:the burial of Kojo, you start to realize, or I do, that I have no visual sense of where you come from.

00:15:18Marc:And it's a completely different place.

00:15:22Marc:And you're from there, so your sensibility around it.

00:15:26Marc:So it's like going to another world.

00:15:29Marc:Indeed.

00:15:29Guest:Indeed.

00:15:30Guest:I mean, but that's the beauty of cinema, right?

00:15:32Guest:Yeah.

00:15:32Guest:I mean, that's kind of that ability to transport us, you know?

00:15:37Guest:And that, for me, the craziest thing is it started for me in a soccer park in Ghana.

00:15:45Guest:Yeah.

00:15:45Guest:Because, okay, let me give a little context.

00:15:47Guest:Yeah.

00:15:48Guest:A coup happens in the 80s in Ghana.

00:15:50Guest:A lot of the cinema houses closed down.

00:15:52Guest:Yeah.

00:15:52Marc:Now, like, is that—was that an autocrat?

00:15:54Guest:Was that a little— Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:56Guest:We went through a little window of dictatorship, you know.

00:15:59Marc:Okay.

00:15:59Marc:How long?

00:16:00Guest:You know, I was like, I think, 82 to, like, 92.

00:16:04Guest:So you're how old?

00:16:05Guest:You know, I'm 40 now.

00:16:06Guest:No, but how old were you then?

00:16:07Guest:Oh, back then, geez.

00:16:08Guest:I was like, what, 82 to 92?

00:16:10Marc:Yeah, so I was 10.

00:16:12Marc:Right.

00:16:12Marc:So that's—because I was wondering, because not knowing the history of Ghana—

00:16:16Marc:You know, the imagery that comes up in, you know, the Native Son and the imagery that comes up in Black is King, you know, and, you know, in terms of choices boys must make, that's where it comes from.

00:16:30Marc:Indeed.

00:16:31Guest:Okay, so soccer.

00:16:32Guest:Yeah, so it's that outdoor kind of soccer park.

00:16:36Guest:Yeah.

00:16:36Guest:But the wildest thing was no cinema houses, or not many of them, and so a lot of what we get are the evangelical movies.

00:16:45Yeah.

00:16:45Guest:That are projected for free.

00:16:47Guest:American evangelical movies?

00:16:48Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:50Guest:It was big.

00:16:50Guest:And you know one they used to show all the time?

00:16:53Marc:What?

00:16:53Guest:The Last Temptation of Christ.

00:16:55Guest:Well, that's a— So I was getting Marty scores.

00:16:59Marc:I'm surprised that the evangelicals were behind that.

00:17:02Marc:They were projecting that.

00:17:03Marc:I thought they had a problem with that one.

00:17:05Guest:Maybe not to specific—I mean, they were just showing as many Jesus movies as they could.

00:17:10Guest:Right.

00:17:10Guest:And of course, you know, this one was a big one.

00:17:13Guest:So these were missionaries?

00:17:14Guest:They were missionaries, you know, and they did them for free outdoors.

00:17:17Guest:But those were like the one of those like amazing things you looked forward to.

00:17:22Guest:Yeah, right.

00:17:23Guest:Because it was communal.

00:17:24Guest:You did your chores early.

00:17:26Guest:You got your mat.

00:17:27Guest:You took it to the park.

00:17:28Guest:You laid it out.

00:17:29Guest:You waited for the movie to start.

00:17:31Guest:Yeah.

00:17:32Guest:and the projection, right, of this world that you were like, I didn't know this world existed.

00:17:38Guest:Transported.

00:17:39Guest:I mean, down the line, you find out it's Martin Scorsese, and he's done Taxi Driver, he's done.

00:17:44Marc:Right, sure, sure.

00:17:45Marc:You know, Goodfellas.

00:17:47Marc:But at the moment, when you're 10, you just know, like, you know, I'm away.

00:17:50Marc:That's it.

00:17:51Guest:Right.

00:17:51Guest:That's it.

00:17:52Guest:And that, for me, I've never forgotten that feeling.

00:17:56Guest:As a matter of fact, that scene in The Color Purple where Suge takes...

00:18:00Guest:Sealy to the movies.

00:18:02Guest:That's homage.

00:18:04Guest:That was me watching and being transported and going, wow, the worlds that lie beyond infinite.

00:18:14Marc:Yeah.

00:18:15Marc:Well, I mean, even in... There's a couple of homages.

00:18:17Marc:There's that...

00:18:19Marc:In Black is King, there's that Esther Williams kind of swimming.

00:18:22Marc:Swimming, of course, of course, of course, of course.

00:18:25Marc:Where did you find that thing?

00:18:26Guest:Well, that was B. That was Beyonce.

00:18:29Guest:Oh, she thought that?

00:18:30Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:32Guest:Because, I mean, we were constantly going back and forth.

00:18:34Guest:There were parts that I did in South Africa, like that levitation when a guy goes up.

00:18:40Guest:Yeah.

00:18:40Marc:Well, yeah, and also the theme of, you know, whether it's horses or motorcycles and masks and devils.

00:18:48Marc:Yes.

00:18:48Marc:That seems to be your realm.

00:18:52Guest:But all of it, really, I'll tell you where all of it comes from.

00:18:54Guest:It's my grandmother's stories.

00:18:56Guest:Yeah.

00:18:57Guest:Ultimately.

00:18:57Marc:So this is, like, in Ghana, like, what is the situation family-wise for you?

00:19:03Guest:So my family's from the northernmost part of Ghana.

00:19:06Guest:We are, like, Sisala people, way up top, right?

00:19:10Marc:And what's that border on?

00:19:11Guest:So that border's on Burkina Faso.

00:19:13Guest:Oh.

00:19:13Guest:Right, so it's right where, right, you know, my village is right underneath Burkina Faso.

00:19:18Marc:Yeah.

00:19:18Guest:But what happens is that everyone migrates...

00:19:21Guest:to the south, which is Accra, for work.

00:19:24Guest:That's where you grew up.

00:19:24Guest:So I grew up in Accra.

00:19:25Guest:What's the work?

00:19:26Guest:You know, work, any work, all work.

00:19:29Guest:And so my father and my mother moved down there, and so that's where we were all born.

00:19:34Guest:What was his work?

00:19:36Guest:My dad at the time was a civil servant.

00:19:39Guest:You know, and my mom's a teacher.

00:19:41Guest:My mom's always been a teacher.

00:19:42Marc:A civil servant for the government?

00:19:43Marc:For the government.

00:19:44Marc:For whatever government?

00:19:45Marc:Yeah, I was, you know.

00:19:46Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:19:47Guest:I mean, at the time, right?

00:19:48Guest:At the time.

00:19:49Guest:So, but what's exceptional is my grandmother comes to stay with us because she has asthma.

00:19:54Guest:Yeah.

00:19:55Guest:And that window is like my window into storytelling.

00:19:59Guest:Right.

00:20:00Guest:Because, you know.

00:20:02Guest:Power was kind of like... Electricity was kind of in and out back then.

00:20:06Guest:And so whenever power go out, my grandmother's stories were the only thing that would keep us... And what were they mostly?

00:20:14Guest:They were folk tales, but they were like the movies I make today.

00:20:18Marc:No, I know.

00:20:19Marc:I saw... Because I was wondering where that comes from.

00:20:21Marc:I mean, I saw...

00:20:23Marc:And both in Native Son and then also in, you know, the burial of Kojo that like I didn't know if they were allegories because some of it's biblical, some of it's folk story.

00:20:33Marc:I mean, you know, and also the burial of Kojo is somebody telling a story.

00:20:39Guest:Absolutely.

00:20:40Guest:And I mean, that's kind of I've always that's kind of been my de facto into storytelling, but also the possibility the story doesn't have to be linear.

00:20:50Guest:It could be cyclical.

00:20:52Guest:I know.

00:20:53Guest:Cyclical.

00:20:53Guest:You know what I mean?

00:20:54Guest:And so that's kind of, for me, my grandmother's stories became like the basis.

00:20:59Guest:And I think everything I've done, music, you know.

00:21:02Marc:So transitioning into the visual elements of nonlinear storytelling, because, you know, sometimes when I watch things, I'm like, what did I miss?

00:21:12Marc:Yeah.

00:21:12Marc:But...

00:21:13Marc:But in the way you describe it, though, if it's nonlinear and it's cyclical, then, you know, it's more poetic.

00:21:20Marc:Yes.

00:21:21Marc:And the connections aren't as cut and dry.

00:21:24Marc:No, no.

00:21:25Guest:They're... What's a good word?

00:21:28Guest:They are...

00:21:30Guest:The way they connect are not overt.

00:21:33Guest:You know what I mean?

00:21:34Guest:And I think that for me has been an exciting thing to participate in this particular medium because cinema is such a very Western style where most things are very three-act structure.

00:21:49Guest:I got to know what answers what.

00:21:50Guest:Yeah.

00:21:51Guest:You know, people have been telling all kinds of stories in all kinds of ways way before this medium.

00:21:57Guest:And this medium is quite young.

00:21:58Marc:So that's true.

00:22:01Marc:But so your grandmother, though, in terms of of imagery, because it seems like some of the elements of the early movies, you know, have to do with with with symbolism that's not necessarily explained, but almost in a folktale story.

00:22:16Marc:child story kind of way.

00:22:18Marc:Yes.

00:22:19Guest:Yes.

00:22:20Guest:And again, I think that's what, for me, excites me about the possibilities of this medium.

00:22:27Guest:And I always compare it to music.

00:22:30Guest:You know, music is so free.

00:22:33Guest:Sure.

00:22:34Guest:I mean, it's every kind, no matter where you go.

00:22:37Guest:Indigenous people make, Western people make, Africans make it, Europeans make.

00:22:42Guest:It's just such an amalgam.

00:22:44Guest:And because the freedoms to create are, and specifically the African and the African diaspora, if you think about the freedoms that the musics have had, I mean, everything from gospel, jazz, blues, funk, R&B, Afrobeat, Roomba, and some of the records we were talking about, the Juju music, High Life, the Afrobeat, you know?

00:23:06Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:07Guest:The freedoms that exist in those mediums are yet to be felt in cinema, I think.

00:23:13Guest:Interesting.

00:23:14Guest:I think.

00:23:15Guest:Because the medium is so young that, you know, it's also quite narrow because of the barriers to entry.

00:23:24Guest:I mean, it's a very expensive medium.

00:23:26Guest:Yeah.

00:23:26Guest:So, I mean, it's getting more and more.

00:23:28Guest:I mean, the reason I was able to make The Barrel of Kojo

00:23:32Guest:It's the advent of digital cameras.

00:23:35Guest:I could not dream about making that movie.

00:23:37Guest:I couldn't afford to make it.

00:23:39Guest:But we took chances making that movie because it was fairly cheap to do it.

00:23:45Guest:And I think that the more the medium gets decentralized and more and more people have access, I think we're going to see...

00:23:53Guest:It's going to be like music.

00:23:55Guest:It's going to be like poetry.

00:23:56Marc:Poetry, yeah.

00:23:58Marc:Because even when you do Black is King, which is essentially music, what you have, though, it's a little different.

00:24:06Marc:There's an intensity and a speed.

00:24:10Marc:There are a lot of costumes.

00:24:11Marc:Yes, lots of costumes.

00:24:14Marc:Lots.

00:24:14Marc:I can't even imagine those shoots.

00:24:16Marc:The wardrobe truck, there must have been four of them.

00:24:18Marc:Tons.

00:24:19Marc:Yep.

00:24:21Marc:But it all happened so quickly.

00:24:22Marc:So when you really translate a sense of rhythm that is similar to music to film, which I think you probably achieved a lot of in Black is King.

00:24:34Marc:Absolutely.

00:24:35Marc:That everything happens very quickly.

00:24:36Marc:So, you know, you don't sit with the imagery as long.

00:24:40Marc:Yep.

00:24:41Marc:But it all hits you.

00:24:42Marc:But it's a lot.

00:24:42Marc:It's overwhelming.

00:24:43Marc:It is.

00:24:44Guest:Yeah.

00:24:44Guest:It is.

00:24:44Guest:And I mean, what what but that was its intent.

00:24:47Guest:Right.

00:24:47Guest:I think I think when you move into the color purple now, now we can ballet a little bit more.

00:24:53Guest:Right.

00:24:54Guest:So you can still take that same sense of visual poetry.

00:24:58Guest:But now you kind of now can live a little longer in these worlds.

00:25:02Marc:But also the music's different.

00:25:04Guest:Yes.

00:25:04Marc:Right.

00:25:05Marc:So different.

00:25:05Marc:Because even if you look at like the early ones, like I'm trying to look at the timeline here, but the diasporatical Trulogia.

00:25:15Marc:Trulogia, yep.

00:25:17Marc:So, you know, this is essentially poetry that happens in three grooves.

00:25:22Marc:Yes.

00:25:23Marc:I guess.

00:25:24Marc:Yes.

00:25:24Marc:And the story is, you know, there are three different stories, you know, through the idea of somebody existing in three different worlds and times.

00:25:34Marc:Yes.

00:25:35Marc:But it's essentially a black story about a woman.

00:25:37Marc:Yeah.

00:25:37Marc:Yes.

00:25:38Marc:So, but those are all different.

00:25:40Marc:So then you can see the different rhythms.

00:25:43Marc:Absolutely.

00:25:44Marc:Because you're dealing with different times, different countries.

00:25:47Marc:Yes.

00:25:47Marc:Different times signatures.

00:25:48Marc:Yes.

00:25:49Marc:Right.

00:25:49Guest:Which I find, again, I love that film.

00:25:53Guest:And here's the amazing thing about cinema.

00:25:56Guest:It ends up being an amalgam of all of these kind of separate creative mediums.

00:26:02Marc:Of course, yeah.

00:26:03Guest:You got to be a poet to make a film.

00:26:05Guest:You got to know how to write.

00:26:06Guest:I mean, great cinema is great writing.

00:26:08Marc:That writing and also a sense of frame and time.

00:26:12Guest:Yes, time, all that stuff.

00:26:12Guest:You have to know visual, you know,

00:26:18Guest:blocking and framing.

00:26:20Guest:That's another massive thing.

00:26:21Guest:So photography becomes a thing that you have to, or painting.

00:26:26Guest:And you have to know rhythm music.

00:26:28Guest:You got to know how scenes are going to, I mean, I've seen directors literally conduct a scene.

00:26:34Guest:And you go, wow, this is rhythmic.

00:26:37Guest:So when you think about it, the better you are at all of these conversations,

00:26:41Guest:some seemingly disparate mediums well not really you mean painting music and film yeah poetry yeah poetry all these things they they seem siloed right but well they're all in film in film exactly and that's that's what i love about the medium is that wow like i can read a thing i can read a book and go wow i know how to in a way approximate that for a

00:27:04Marc:shot in my film or even a feeling a feeling that's it so well what was the first thing for you i mean outside of seeing you know evangelical films outdoors in the middle of a coup yeah where you need it wasn't in the middle of a coup but it was post coup post coup but but it's tense it's tense you know things are a little destabilized yeah a little nervous absolutely you know new people on horses and motorcycles i guess stuff different uniforms absolutely

00:27:33Marc:And you're a kid, so there's an escape to it.

00:27:36Marc:But what was, you know, who was kind of supporting your creativity?

00:27:40Marc:You had a bunch of siblings.

00:27:42Marc:Yes, it was my mother.

00:27:43Guest:Yeah.

00:27:44Guest:My mother was, I mean, God bless.

00:27:45Guest:She's a teacher.

00:27:46Guest:She's a teacher.

00:27:47Guest:My mother let me...

00:27:48Guest:My mother let me be.

00:27:50Guest:And I got to say this, you know, Ghanaian kid, there's a couple of things you can be.

00:27:55Guest:A banker, a pilot, you know, like, you know, respectable jobs.

00:28:00Guest:Nobody respected art.

00:28:02Guest:My mother made sure, and I was also living in a house that was constantly under construction.

00:28:07Guest:There was always like some crevice that was free.

00:28:10Guest:My mother will say, take that.

00:28:11Guest:It's yours.

00:28:12Guest:That's where I learned to draw.

00:28:14Guest:Yeah.

00:28:14Guest:And I will say every idea I've ever had creatively has come from a piece of art.

00:28:20Guest:Before I write a song, I have to sketch it out.

00:28:22Guest:I got to draw what I think I see.

00:28:24Guest:Yeah.

00:28:25Guest:You know, before I make a movie, I mean, I go overboard with that.

00:28:28Guest:With storyboarding?

00:28:29Guest:Oh, my goodness.

00:28:30Guest:I storyboarded over 1,500 frames of storyboard for The Color Purple.

00:28:36Guest:Uh-huh.

00:28:36Guest:Yep.

00:28:37Guest:For Blackest King, that's actually how I got the job.

00:28:40Guest:From storyboards.

00:28:41Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:28:42Guest:Beyonce saw my storyboards and was like, yeah, give this kid a job now, you know?

00:28:48Guest:Burl of Koja was the same.

00:28:50Guest:But I value it because I really believe that if I, you and I, got the same script, went off to shoot a movie, we'll come back with two completely different movies.

00:29:02Guest:Sure.

00:29:02Guest:Because we see the world completely different.

00:29:04Guest:Yeah.

00:29:05Guest:And if I showed you a piece of...

00:29:07Marc:drawing and i said we're shooting that yeah we all gonna shoot that because we know where the camera goes yeah right and so i've been very fastidious about that but it was not the but that evolved like you know at the beginning as a creative person you know what did you see yourself doing you know you learned how to draw that was it and then you were gonna what draw just gonna draw

00:29:30Guest:Because I didn't know no better.

00:29:32Guest:I loved it.

00:29:33Guest:I could sit down for hours, and I enjoyed it.

00:29:36Guest:People left me alone.

00:29:37Guest:My mom let me be.

00:29:39Guest:But then came hip-hop.

00:29:41Guest:And hip-hop was... How old were you?

00:29:44Guest:Same time.

00:29:45Guest:10?

00:29:46Guest:How'd you hear it?

00:29:48Guest:Well, Public Enemy came to Ghana.

00:29:50Guest:Yeah.

00:29:50Guest:Oh, they came and performed?

00:29:51Guest:They came to perform in Ghana.

00:29:53Guest:Yeah.

00:29:53Marc:Yeah.

00:29:54Guest:Chuck D. Did you go?

00:29:55Guest:I was a kid.

00:29:57Guest:I couldn't go.

00:29:58Guest:But that's all they talked about on the radio.

00:30:00Guest:That's all they played on the radio was it takes a nation to millions.

00:30:03Marc:No one went in your family?

00:30:04Guest:No one.

00:30:06Guest:No one.

00:30:06Guest:But I mean, my neighbors went and they came back with war stories.

00:30:09Guest:It was incredible.

00:30:10Guest:And I was like, whatever that is.

00:30:12Guest:And some people had t-shirts.

00:30:14Guest:That was the first time I'd seen the logo.

00:30:16Guest:And your siblings artists?

00:30:18Guest:No, not really.

00:30:19Guest:I mean, my brother drew too, but he kind of like let it go.

00:30:22Guest:But I used to just copy his style as a kid.

00:30:26Guest:So he showed you shit?

00:30:27Guest:He showed me shit.

00:30:28Guest:A lot of good shit.

00:30:29Guest:Did he have records?

00:30:30Guest:My brother was, I mean, he was the purveyor of hip hop.

00:30:32Guest:Yeah.

00:30:33Guest:So like my brother came home.

00:30:34Guest:Wait, he sold it?

00:30:35Guest:Sorry?

00:30:36Guest:He sold hip hop records?

00:30:37Guest:No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:30:38Guest:To me.

00:30:39Guest:I mean, he introduced me to this incredible world.

00:30:42Guest:Because what it was was he would go off to secondary school, which is what?

00:30:48Guest:High school.

00:30:48Guest:Yeah.

00:30:49Guest:America.

00:30:49Guest:Right.

00:30:50Guest:And that's when hip hop had broken.

00:30:52Guest:Right.

00:30:52Guest:And so, you know, tapes like Rock Kim, De La Soul, The Tribe Cold Quest.

00:30:57Guest:Yeah.

00:30:57Guest:He brought home.

00:30:58Guest:Right.

00:30:59Guest:Right.

00:30:59Guest:And he'll call me when he comes home after a whole term at school.

00:31:03Guest:He'll call me to the back of the house.

00:31:04Guest:This is what I got.

00:31:05Guest:This is what I got.

00:31:06Guest:And I mean, I'll be enamored.

00:31:07Marc:I'll be like, what is this?

00:31:09Marc:What was the music in the house previous to hip-hop?

00:31:11Marc:High life.

00:31:12Marc:It was high life.

00:31:12Marc:All about love.

00:31:14Marc:Right, but that's where those horns come from.

00:31:15Guest:Yeah, that's where it comes from.

00:31:17Guest:Absolutely.

00:31:18Guest:But I mean, again, at the time, I was just tired of it.

00:31:21Guest:I was like, that's all they play on Array.

00:31:22Guest:That's all my parents like.

00:31:25Guest:Same thing was happening here in America.

00:31:26Guest:It was like all these R&B records.

00:31:29Marc:And then all of a sudden it's hip hop.

00:31:31Marc:But the High Life music, was that out of Niger or where was it from?

00:31:36Marc:Ghana.

00:31:36Marc:It was all from Ghana.

00:31:37Guest:All from Ghana.

00:31:38Guest:Yeah, we had some amazing, I mean, Abo Taylor, who's still active, was one of our biggest.

00:31:43Guest:Yeah.

00:31:45Guest:Yeah, there were some phenomenal records.

00:31:47Guest:I mean, I'll send you a playlist.

00:31:49Guest:It's incredible.

00:31:50Guest:Yeah.

00:31:51Guest:So that shifted your whole sensibility.

00:31:53Guest:You realize, like, there's something else happening.

00:31:55Guest:Something else.

00:31:56Guest:And you know what I loved about hip hop?

00:31:58Guest:Audacity.

00:32:00Guest:Gave you confidence.

00:32:02Guest:Confidence.

00:32:03Guest:Here are these guys who counted out.

00:32:05Guest:Nobody had any plans for them.

00:32:07Guest:And somehow they had captivated the world.

00:32:10Guest:I was like, what?

00:32:11Guest:Maybe if I can do that, I'll have a shot.

00:32:14Guest:So you thought music now.

00:32:15Guest:Now it's music.

00:32:16Guest:So now that same room, now I got, my mom's banging on the door now.

00:32:19Guest:Because it's no longer quiet.

00:32:21Guest:Now it's always, she called boom, boom, boom music.

00:32:23Guest:This is all this boom, boom, boom.

00:32:24Guest:Get your pencil.

00:32:25Guest:You know what I mean?

00:32:26Guest:But I loved it.

00:32:28Guest:I kind of got sucked into this

00:32:30Guest:you know, vortex of like... Did you start writing then?

00:32:32Guest:Started writing.

00:32:34Guest:Rap lyrics.

00:32:35Guest:Rap lyrics.

00:32:36Guest:And then you know how I did them?

00:32:38Guest:I just copied, you know, I don't know, like a De La Soul record and I'll, you know, change a line here, change a line there.

00:32:45Marc:Figure out the structure.

00:32:46Marc:Figure out the structure.

00:32:46Guest:Throw my name in there.

00:32:48Guest:Pretend I wrote it all.

00:32:49Guest:Yeah.

00:32:50Guest:You know, I was doing a lot of that.

00:32:52Guest:Yeah, were you performing it?

00:32:54Guest:Yeah, at school.

00:32:55Guest:For your family?

00:32:55Guest:Oh, at school.

00:32:56Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:57Guest:And actually people thought I was good.

00:32:58Guest:But it was all just like Biggie Smalls records.

00:33:02Guest:I was faking it.

00:33:04Guest:Who the fuck is this?

00:33:05Guest:Page of me at 546.

00:33:06Guest:Send him this.

00:33:07Guest:And like, oh, he's good.

00:33:08Marc:No, it's just all Biggie.

00:33:09Marc:But a lot of them didn't know it, or they did.

00:33:11Marc:No, of course.

00:33:12Guest:I sounded like a genius, but I wasn't.

00:33:16Guest:But that's where it begun for me, just in terms of going, wow, there is something out there.

00:33:21Guest:And it's powerful.

00:33:22Guest:And it's global.

00:33:24Guest:And maybe...

00:33:25Guest:if I worked hard at it.

00:33:27Guest:So that's actually when my fixation with coming to America started.

00:33:31Guest:Cause at this point, my sister and my brother are going out to university in the UK.

00:33:37Guest:And, and that's very common with, you know, West Africans.

00:33:40Guest:It's like, you know, and this is all post-colonial.

00:33:43Guest:So if you're like Francophone, you go to France, Belgium.

00:33:47Guest:If you're Anglophone, you go to England.

00:33:49Guest:That's kind of what was happening.

00:33:50Guest:So my sister and brother went there for education and,

00:33:53Guest:And I was like, I'm coming to America.

00:33:57Marc:But your intent creatively was rap.

00:34:00Marc:That's it.

00:34:02Marc:When did you come to America?

00:34:03Marc:How old?

00:34:04Marc:Just college?

00:34:05Marc:Yeah, I came for college.

00:34:06Marc:I was 17.

00:34:07Marc:So 17.

00:34:08Marc:So between 12 and 17, you're just focusing on music.

00:34:11Marc:I'm just focusing.

00:34:12Guest:Harnessing, learning what I could about it.

00:34:15Guest:And then I got accepted to Kent State University.

00:34:18Wow.

00:34:18Marc:Wow, that's a heavy history.

00:34:20Marc:Yes.

00:34:21Guest:Were you hip to it?

00:34:22Guest:I was hip.

00:34:23Guest:I was hip.

00:34:23Guest:I didn't, you know, I needed to go anywhere they'll take me.

00:34:26Guest:Yeah.

00:34:27Marc:So you weren't hung up on it?

00:34:28Guest:You didn't get there and think like, this is where that happened?

00:34:30Guest:No, I was just like, my SAT scores were not great.

00:34:33Guest:Sure.

00:34:34Guest:Somebody will take me.

00:34:34Guest:Yeah, so Ohio.

00:34:35Guest:Ohio.

00:34:36Guest:I was like, okay, it's not New York, it's not LA, but it'll do.

00:34:40Guest:And it was great.

00:34:41Guest:I actually enjoyed my time.

00:34:43Marc:All four years?

00:34:43Guest:All four years.

00:34:44Guest:I really enjoyed it.

00:34:46Guest:I learned a lot.

00:34:47Guest:Did you do music?

00:34:48Guest:I did a lot of music.

00:34:49Guest:I opened for a lot of good bands that came.

00:34:51Guest:That was the great thing about not much was happening in the Cleveland.

00:34:54Guest:What was your setup?

00:34:56Guest:It was just a DJ and a mic.

00:35:00Guest:I was part of little sprawling groups.

00:35:02Guest:I did as much as I could.

00:35:04Guest:But straight up like New York style?

00:35:06Guest:New York, New York hip hop, you know, faking it.

00:35:10Guest:And then I graduate.

00:35:12Guest:But this way it becomes like a crossroads.

00:35:15Guest:With what degree?

00:35:16Guest:Of all things, a marketing and advertising degree.

00:35:20Guest:who put you up to that well my parents wanted me to do architecture because again that's one of the respectable uh uh jobs that sounds interesting it is but that's what you think until you see those damn drawings right you go this is boring yeah and it's like the thing is they go you can draw right so you should be an architect yeah it's not the same thing yeah it's like it's like that's sketching and that's like lying yeah this is restricted restricted it's engineering i

00:35:45Guest:Couldn't handle it.

00:35:46Guest:Yeah.

00:35:46Guest:I did one semester.

00:35:48Guest:Yeah.

00:35:48Guest:I bounced on like fashion merchandising.

00:35:50Guest:Couldn't handle it.

00:35:51Guest:Yeah.

00:35:52Guest:Balanced the interior design.

00:35:53Guest:Couldn't handle it.

00:35:53Guest:Yeah.

00:35:54Guest:And I stumble into a marketing class.

00:35:58Guest:Right.

00:35:58Guest:And I go, this is it.

00:36:01Guest:This is it.

00:36:02Guest:I get it.

00:36:03Guest:It was intuitive.

00:36:04Guest:Yeah.

00:36:04Guest:It's like, I'm always going to be selling something.

00:36:06Guest:Right.

00:36:07Guest:So I might as well understand what that is.

00:36:09Marc:Yeah.

00:36:09Marc:And I love it.

00:36:10Marc:So it's practical.

00:36:11Marc:It's practical.

00:36:12Marc:You could do your creative thing, and this is something I can use.

00:36:15Marc:Use.

00:36:15Marc:Yeah.

00:36:16Guest:And I'll tell you what.

00:36:17Guest:Graduating with that degree...

00:36:20Guest:Literally not even taking off my graduation gown.

00:36:23Guest:That's how much I wanted to get out of Kent.

00:36:25Guest:Yeah.

00:36:25Guest:I jumped in my car.

00:36:27Guest:It was a van.

00:36:28Guest:It was a little blue Chevy.

00:36:29Guest:Right.

00:36:30Guest:With a bad break.

00:36:31Guest:I remember that because every time I'll park it, it'll just like skid off a little bit.

00:36:34Guest:Yeah.

00:36:34Guest:It's a terrible car.

00:36:35Guest:Yeah.

00:36:35Guest:But I drove all the way.

00:36:37Guest:You got to have a terrible car when you graduate college.

00:36:40Guest:You had to.

00:36:41Guest:And I drove all the way to New York.

00:36:43Guest:Yeah.

00:36:43Guest:Guess what?

00:36:44Guest:They stole my car.

00:36:45Guest:Welcome to New York.

00:36:46Guest:Literally, literally the next day.

00:36:49Guest:Yeah.

00:36:50Guest:I walked around.

00:36:51Guest:I walked around all of the way I thought I'd parked my car, which is flashy.

00:36:55Guest:Fresh in Queens.

00:36:56Guest:The car was gone.

00:36:58Guest:I went around chop shops, hoping to find something left of my car.

00:37:03Guest:Nothing.

00:37:04Marc:Gone.

00:37:04Marc:Lucky.

00:37:04Marc:You learned how to use the subway.

00:37:06Guest:Yes.

00:37:07Guest:So anyway, the one thing, though, that I was smart enough to carry upstairs in my new apartment...

00:37:13Guest:Just three floors up, no elevator, was a box of my CDs that I had printed in college.

00:37:21Guest:Of your music?

00:37:22Guest:Of my music.

00:37:23Guest:Yeah.

00:37:23Guest:So now I go, all right, it's all I got.

00:37:26Guest:And I'm not about to go get a job right now.

00:37:28Guest:Right, yeah.

00:37:28Guest:So I'm going to sell these CDs in New York.

00:37:31Guest:Yeah.

00:37:32Guest:So I go, this is nuts.

00:37:33Guest:I go, where is like a big traffic area?

00:37:37Right.

00:37:37Guest:They tell me it's Union Square.

00:37:40Guest:Okay.

00:37:41Guest:I remember those hip-hop guys selling those CDs.

00:37:43Guest:Of course.

00:37:43Guest:I may have approached you and go, hey, you listen to hip-hop?

00:37:48Guest:Yeah.

00:37:48Guest:But here's the wild thing.

00:37:50Guest:So there was a Virgin Megastore, remember, right around that corner?

00:37:53Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

00:37:54Guest:Before the Whole Foods showed up.

00:37:56Guest:Yeah.

00:37:56Guest:And I used to set up outside there until those guys were like, this guy's cutting into our business.

00:38:02Guest:It was like down on Broadway, right?

00:38:03Guest:Yeah, it was on Broadway.

00:38:04Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:38:05Guest:It was a beautiful spot.

00:38:06Guest:So they used to kick me away from there.

00:38:08Guest:So then I moved a little further to actually the 14th subway station, the QRN.

00:38:15Guest:I walk into the Virgin, and I see a long line of people waiting to hear whoever's album was out.

00:38:23Guest:Right.

00:38:23Guest:And I go, that's how you do it.

00:38:25Guest:Right.

00:38:25Guest:You don't approach people and ask them.

00:38:28Guest:You just have a setup.

00:38:29Guest:Yeah.

00:38:30Guest:And then they'll line up.

00:38:30Marc:There's that marketing education.

00:38:32Guest:Yeah.

00:38:32Guest:So I set up outside.

00:38:33Guest:Now I'm in front of like whatever that Whole Foods is.

00:38:36Guest:Yeah.

00:38:37Guest:And now I build me a little booth with a pair of headphones.

00:38:41Guest:Yeah.

00:38:41Guest:And I shit you not.

00:38:43Guest:Just like a virgin listening station.

00:38:45Guest:I shit you not.

00:38:46Guest:People will line the fuck up.

00:38:48Guest:Really?

00:38:49Guest:And this is New York, man.

00:38:51Guest:Nobody ever stops for nothing.

00:38:53Guest:And that's when I learned, man, you can't chase them.

00:38:57Guest:You got to attract them.

00:38:58Guest:Sure.

00:38:59Guest:And that was a huge education.

00:39:01Guest:But the other thing my hustling in New York helped me do was watch movies.

00:39:08Guest:I mean, I've always been obsessed with the medium.

00:39:10Guest:But now...

00:39:11Guest:I was near the IFC.

00:39:13Guest:I was near the Film Forum.

00:39:15Guest:There was an AMC not far in a Regal.

00:39:17Guest:And then that one right down on, what is it, 13th or whatever?

00:39:20Marc:13th, that one.

00:39:21Guest:So literally, whatever I made, selling CDs, I'll go to the movies.

00:39:27Guest:And I literally, I saw everything.

00:39:30Guest:Old prints, new prints.

00:39:31Guest:That's actually where I got put onto I Am Cuba, Saw Cuba, which became like, you know, my kindred.

00:39:38Guest:And actually, it's how Dan Lawston and I bonded, day one.

00:39:41Guest:It's like both our favorite movies.

00:39:43Guest:Yeah.

00:39:43Guest:I think I saw it at the film forum.

00:39:45Guest:Who's Dan Lawson?

00:39:46Guest:Dan Lawson's my DP.

00:39:47Guest:Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

00:39:48Guest:Okay, so it goes that far back.

00:39:50Guest:It goes that far back, right?

00:39:52Guest:So I was, I would literally, sometimes I would literally spend everything I made selling CDs and have to hop the turnstile.

00:40:00Guest:I mean, it was like, it was before, you know, before cameras.

00:40:03Marc:Yeah, are you making new music?

00:40:05Guest:now at that time at that time yeah yeah you got this thing going yes yes yes yes yes and and again so i'm spending time in the movie theaters watching now now now i'm building a film education right so i always wanted to go to film school right but just couldn't afford it yeah you know and it's just like you go watch movies go watch movies that's it and then you get a good dp and say how do we do this how do we do that exactly you figured it out so so that so

00:40:31Guest:So that really became it for me until, you know, and while this is happening, my music is also doing well, right?

00:40:40Guest:So now I'm breaking in Europe.

00:40:42Guest:Really?

00:40:42Guest:How'd that happen?

00:40:43Guest:I got an opportunity to perform at a festival called Transmusicale des Rennes in France.

00:40:51Guest:And you went?

00:40:52Guest:I went, and I took a band, a ragtag New Yorkers, who ended up being some of my best friends now.

00:40:58Guest:Horn section?

00:40:59Marc:Horn section.

00:40:59Marc:See, when did you make that shift?

00:41:01Marc:Because it starts to make sense to me that whatever the vision was or the agenda was, and I don't know where you came up with the name The Ambassador, but it seemed like, and I'm no hip-hop wizard at all, I don't go too deep with it, but it seems that there was a real intention to integrate West African sensibility into American hip-hop.

00:41:26Marc:Absolutely.

00:41:27Absolutely.

00:41:28Marc:Because I don't like, again, I don't know a lot, but it's very specific, you know, the music you come from.

00:41:34Marc:And it's in your records.

00:41:36Guest:Yes.

00:41:36Guest:I mean, I listened to Native Son.

00:41:38Guest:Yes.

00:41:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:41:40Guest:That's a good one.

00:41:41Guest:Because that's when I really figured out.

00:41:45Guest:that hip-hop is just sample culture.

00:41:47Guest:Yeah.

00:41:47Guest:And if you understand how these samples work, okay, so you can either take Mingus, Miles.

00:41:53Guest:Right.

00:41:54Guest:You know?

00:41:55Guest:Yeah.

00:41:55Guest:Or you could take King Sonny Ade or Fela Kuti.

00:41:58Guest:Yeah.

00:41:58Guest:You know, all you got to do is add some edgy drums.

00:42:01Guest:Yeah.

00:42:02Guest:Often it's still always coming from James Brown and his cohorts.

00:42:05Guest:Funky drummer.

00:42:06Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:42:06Guest:And then before you know it, you've got a thing.

00:42:08Guest:You've got an edge.

00:42:10Guest:And so Native Son was it.

00:42:12Guest:I mean, that was also when I went...

00:42:14Guest:Oh, this can extend to not just music.

00:42:20Guest:It's a concept.

00:42:22Guest:Cinema is sample culture, too.

00:42:24Guest:We're always just picking things and mix and matching.

00:42:28Marc:I go, wait, those grandmother stories I got?

00:42:32Marc:And then you used one of the songs from Native Son in one of the movies, Free Your Mind.

00:42:38Guest:Free Your Mind.

00:42:39Marc:Which movie is that in?

00:42:40Guest:That is in, Free Your Mind is in Barrel of Kojo.

00:42:43Marc:Yeah.

00:42:44Guest:It's in Barrel of Kojo.

00:42:45Guest:So that was happening simultaneously.

00:42:46Guest:That was happening simultaneously.

00:42:47Guest:Exactly.

00:42:48Guest:So now I'm going, oh, wait, this concept might work.

00:42:51Guest:Yeah.

00:42:52Guest:You know, it's all like finding this edge.

00:42:55Guest:That, like, is Western culture.

00:42:58Guest:And then figuring out the source, which for me is Ghanaian culture, visually and sonically.

00:43:05Guest:So now it just became the melding of the world.

00:43:08Marc:Right.

00:43:08Marc:So sonically, it's an integration, right?

00:43:11Marc:Yes.

00:43:13Marc:Where you come from, how do you say it, Ghanaian?

00:43:15Marc:Yeah, I'm Ghanaian.

00:43:16Marc:Ghanaian culture infused into American hip-hop.

00:43:21Guest:Yes.

00:43:22Marc:And then so your lyrics become, there's still sort of, the rhythm in the poetry is pretty much rap.

00:43:29Marc:Yes.

00:43:30Marc:But the storytelling capacity of rap is not going to get you to your grandmother.

00:43:37Marc:No.

00:43:39Marc:That's it.

00:43:41Marc:By the way, no one's ever put it that way.

00:43:43Marc:Yeah.

00:43:43Marc:That's brilliant.

00:43:44Marc:Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.

00:43:45Marc:And that's where you get the burial of Kojo, ultimately.

00:43:48Marc:That's where I get the burial of Kojo.

00:43:50Marc:Because the limitations of the music are—it's not that music is limited, but in terms of the limitations of the poetry that you can achieve—

00:43:58Marc:through storytelling and being specifically a Ghanaian vision, you had to go to film.

00:44:07Guest:I had to go to film.

00:44:08Guest:It was the only way to fully maximize.

00:44:10Guest:Because my grandmother's stories would also have music, but they were visual.

00:44:16Guest:I really remember the visuals more than actually I do remember the music.

00:44:20Guest:We clapped and we sang and she taught us little songs to go with the stories, but it wasn't enough.

00:44:25Guest:But then once I figured out the camera could capture that,

00:44:28Marc:Right.

00:44:30Marc:And that, and also without explaining much other than having the little girl talk about this world in between life and death, that imaginary world or not, the mystical world.

00:44:42Marc:So then, you know, you can just leave that there.

00:44:45Marc:Yes.

00:44:46Marc:And then it's up to you watching it.

00:44:48Marc:Yes.

00:44:49Guest:And I think that is also another thing that is very peculiar about African storytelling.

00:44:54Guest:It's very...

00:44:58Guest:The audience member is an active participant.

00:45:02Guest:Right?

00:45:02Guest:Uh-huh.

00:45:03Guest:You know, it's always like there's always room for you.

00:45:05Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:06Marc:You know what I mean?

00:45:06Guest:Sure.

00:45:07Guest:And it doesn't get explained fully.

00:45:09Guest:That's right.

00:45:09Guest:You know what I mean?

00:45:10Guest:It's like... Yeah, the blind guy comes with a bird.

00:45:12Guest:Yes.

00:45:13Guest:What's that mean?

00:45:14Guest:Now you've got to go, damn it.

00:45:16Guest:What's he trying to say?

00:45:17Guest:Oh, you know what?

00:45:18Guest:I think I know what he's trying to say.

00:45:19Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:45:20Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:45:20Guest:And it's how I feel.

00:45:22Guest:Yeah.

00:45:22Guest:You know what I mean?

00:45:23Guest:It's how I feel.

00:45:24Guest:And I think that more and more...

00:45:26Guest:there is the more I've done the work and the more I've, I've, I've like just enjoyed being free on that level.

00:45:35Marc:And letting it sit because, but see, because the thing is, is something is carried down generationally and,

00:45:42Marc:Then who are you to explain it?

00:45:44Marc:That's it.

00:45:45Marc:That's it.

00:45:46Marc:So it must... Even if you don't know how far back it goes, the symbols are what they are.

00:45:51Marc:Yes.

00:45:52Marc:So, you know, go with it.

00:45:54Marc:Yes.

00:45:55Marc:Go with whatever.

00:45:56Guest:God or whatever.

00:45:57Guest:Exactly.

00:45:58Guest:And, you know, that's the beauty.

00:45:59Guest:And again, by the time I get to the color purple, I've done enough of that experimenting to go... Because that's what diasporatical trilogia was.

00:46:08Guest:That was my first foray into...

00:46:10Guest:Can I understand?

00:46:13Guest:You broke it down so well.

00:46:14Guest:It's these movements, these sonic movements, which now I have to match visually.

00:46:20Guest:So I go, okay, I think I get what this is trying to be.

00:46:24Guest:And then I go in long form, and I do Burial of Kojo, and it explains itself a little bit more.

00:46:30Guest:Then I'm thrown into the deep end for Black is King, because now I'm like, oh boy, where am I?

00:46:34Marc:It's a deep end, but it's also unlimited possibility.

00:46:39Marc:Yes.

00:46:40Marc:Because, you know, you're working with Beyonce and you're doing, you know, the sort of visual version of a concept record.

00:46:46Marc:Yes.

00:46:47Marc:And, you know, it's all going to be the music is the music.

00:46:52Guest:Yes.

00:46:53Marc:So you can sort of, you know, do whatever you want.

00:46:55Marc:And she's got the bread and the costumes.

00:46:58Marc:Yes.

00:46:58Marc:Lots of costumes.

00:46:58Marc:And you've got a choreographer that I imagine she brought in.

00:47:01Marc:Yep.

00:47:02Marc:So like, because there's a couple where, there's a couple of beats in that in The Blackest King where, like that canoe shot where she's just like literally a vagina.

00:47:10Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:12Marc:It's like there's this aerial shot and I'm like, that's a floating vagina.

00:47:15Marc:Yes.

00:47:16Yes.

00:47:17Marc:But, I mean, you got to remember.

00:47:18Marc:I mean, B is.

00:47:19Marc:What about that snake one where they're all wearing that one outfit on the crates?

00:47:22Guest:Yeah, with the snake.

00:47:23Guest:Oh, yeah, it's incredible.

00:47:24Marc:What the fuck is that?

00:47:25Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:47:25Guest:But here's the beauty.

00:47:26Guest:Yeah.

00:47:27Guest:It's exactly what you said.

00:47:28Guest:It's provocative.

00:47:29Guest:Yeah.

00:47:30Guest:And that's what matters.

00:47:31Guest:And it got me thinking.

00:47:33Guest:I still watch that movie and ask myself, what does it all mean?

00:47:37Guest:You know what I mean?

00:47:39Guest:I'm still trying to... And I think that's great art.

00:47:41Guest:I mean, it's like looking at a Basquiat painting.

00:47:46Guest:Right.

00:47:46Guest:It's exactly... And I'm so glad you mentioned Basquiat earlier because I've been to the gallery and museums to see the same Basquiat picture a few times.

00:47:58Guest:Sure.

00:47:58Guest:That's why... And every time, I'm like...

00:48:01Guest:what's this guy trying to say?

00:48:03Guest:Oh, I get that little part there.

00:48:05Guest:Yeah.

00:48:05Guest:He reveals yourself to yourself.

00:48:06Guest:That's it.

00:48:07Guest:And I think the more with age, with understanding, with growth, you see things.

00:48:12Guest:And I think that's good art.

00:48:13Marc:Good art is living.

00:48:14Marc:I agree with you that, you know, that the genius of good art is that you, it grows with you.

00:48:19Marc:That's it.

00:48:20Marc:You know, no matter how many times you visit it, you will take something different away from it.

00:48:24Marc:But do you look at, do you still, do you know what Kojo means?

00:48:27Yeah.

00:48:27Marc:I think I understand it more now.

00:48:30Marc:Well, I mean, because it seems that with Native Son, the short, and also with Kojo, this is a journey fueled by grief.

00:48:43Guest:Yes.

00:48:44Marc:So, you know, that's real sort of, you know, childhood, you know, loss.

00:48:49Guest:Yes.

00:48:49Marc:And uncertainty.

00:48:51Guest:Yes.

00:48:51Marc:And so that journey in both of them, one is the little girl and that's different.

00:48:57Guest:Yes.

00:48:58Marc:But the kid's journey, the boy's journey in Native Son is more sort of, I can see that through to Black is King where, you know, you are left with these choices and what life means.

00:49:11Marc:But with Kojo...

00:49:13Marc:Like, that was really kind of an amazing bit of storytelling that left a lot of open space.

00:49:20Marc:Yes.

00:49:21Marc:Because, you know, you have the ocean.

00:49:23Marc:There's an isolating feeling.

00:49:25Marc:There's a village feeling versus a city feeling.

00:49:27Marc:But there's also, as it becomes revealed, the question of, you know, the shame.

00:49:32Marc:Yes.

00:49:33Marc:Guilt.

00:49:34Marc:Yeah.

00:49:35Guest:Guilt.

00:49:35Guest:And I think, you know, I think it's also like I also have always explored

00:49:41Guest:the complexity of the headspace, you know?

00:49:46Guest:And I think it's another thing that's very under-explored in cinema, I think.

00:49:52Guest:I mean, just this... You mean visualizing the headspace?

00:49:54Marc:Visualizing.

00:49:55Marc:Not just sitting there looking at someone thinking.

00:49:57Guest:No, exactly.

00:49:58Guest:Like, what are they thinking, right?

00:50:00Guest:And I think that Kojo, there's a sense of grief, guilt that this man's wrestling with.

00:50:06Guest:And there's a story that's very...

00:50:10Marc:clear present and linear you know a guy who's who's caused pain and havoc and has to deal with the consequences of that and right but but then but you know it's sort of you don't know that right up front no and then like the turn at the end of the second act which is the you know the friend going like the uncle hasn't been around has been gone for seven years yeah yeah yeah and so that all is pulled out from under you and then you're like whose imagination was it and why and the kids operating on some supernatural level yes

00:50:37Marc:So, you know, she saw the uncle.

00:50:39Marc:Yes.

00:50:40Marc:Because she was sharing the father's vision because she got the bird from the blind guy.

00:50:44Marc:That's it.

00:50:45Guest:Yeah.

00:50:48Guest:I mean, that's the beauty of it all.

00:50:50Marc:Right.

00:50:51Guest:It's like, and I've really enjoyed...

00:50:53Guest:making art that does exactly, that grows with you as you evolve as a human.

00:51:02Guest:But the beauty is, then I get this massive opportunity.

00:51:05Marc:Well, that's the thing, like, you know, getting, you know, moving up to the color purple is that after...

00:51:12Marc:You sort of work with Beyonce.

00:51:14Marc:It's sort of like the one thing out of all of it you got to be comfortable with is shooting people dancing.

00:51:19Marc:Yes.

00:51:20Marc:Yes.

00:51:21Marc:Absolutely.

00:51:23Marc:But the idea, so what were, and I'm sure you've told this story before, because watching The Color Purple, you know, it does deal with all your themes and you get a little Africa in there towards the end.

00:51:34Marc:I do.

00:51:35Marc:And I milked that.

00:51:36Yeah.

00:51:36Marc:I do.

00:51:38Marc:That's your wheelhouse.

00:51:39Marc:Yes.

00:51:40Marc:But what were the challenges?

00:51:42Marc:Well, from the beginning, were you surprised that you got a shot at this?

00:51:47Marc:I was.

00:51:48Marc:I mean, I'd never made a studio picture.

00:51:51Guest:So who gets you that?

00:51:52Guest:Beyonce?

00:51:53Guest:No.

00:51:56Guest:Blackest Game wasn't out yet.

00:51:57Guest:It was rumored to be out.

00:51:59Guest:There was a trailer out, but it wasn't out.

00:52:01Guest:My agent called me.

00:52:03Guest:He was like, hey, you know, they're remaking The Color Purple.

00:52:06Guest:They've seen a few directors already, and somehow your name came up, and I want you to take a meeting.

00:52:12Guest:And I was just like...

00:52:14Guest:Come on.

00:52:14Guest:They've seen a couple people.

00:52:15Guest:That's just telling me someone's already hired and I'm just going to waste my time.

00:52:18Marc:Or they're using you for leverage.

00:52:20Guest:For leverage.

00:52:21Guest:So I was quite skeptical at first.

00:52:25Guest:And then I think what I'm also the kind that's also like, what's the worst?

00:52:31Guest:I'll learn something.

00:52:32Guest:Yeah.

00:52:33Guest:You know?

00:52:33Guest:Want to talk to a few big shots.

00:52:35Guest:Why not?

00:52:35Guest:In Hollywood.

00:52:36Guest:Yeah.

00:52:36Guest:You know?

00:52:37Guest:In Hollywood.

00:52:38Guest:No, but you know a part that I've missed that I think is important to this conversation?

00:52:43Guest:Yeah.

00:52:43Guest:In 2015, when I was like, music had kind of plateaued.

00:52:47Guest:Right.

00:52:48Guest:I played all the concerts I could.

00:52:49Guest:I hadn't scored a hit.

00:52:52Guest:Right.

00:52:52Guest:So there was no way I could imagine I was going to keep going.

00:52:56Wow.

00:52:56Guest:Without getting sad.

00:52:57Guest:Without... Sad.

00:52:58Guest:Very sad.

00:52:59Guest:Yeah.

00:53:00Guest:I got a call from my mom.

00:53:02Guest:Yeah.

00:53:03Guest:And she goes, are you thinking of making a movie?

00:53:06Marc:Yeah.

00:53:07Guest:I go, you know, I'd like to.

00:53:09Marc:This is before Kojo?

00:53:10Marc:Before Kojo.

00:53:12Guest:She goes, are you thinking of making a movie?

00:53:14Guest:Because I had...

00:53:16Guest:A vision.

00:53:18Marc:Yeah.

00:53:19Guest:And I saw Hollywood.

00:53:20Marc:Yeah.

00:53:22Marc:Yeah.

00:53:22Marc:Is your mom one that has visions?

00:53:25Guest:Oh, here and there.

00:53:27Marc:But like, not this level.

00:53:29Guest:Right.

00:53:30Guest:But I was like, okay, you saw Hollywood?

00:53:33Guest:Yeah.

00:53:33Guest:I go, okay.

00:53:34Guest:Yeah.

00:53:34Guest:So she goes, yeah, if you plan to make a movie, you should do it soon.

00:53:38Guest:Yeah.

00:53:38Yeah.

00:53:38Guest:I kid you not, man, that summer, I packed all my crap.

00:53:42Guest:And I moved back to that house, the same house where I learned to sketch.

00:53:45Marc:Was it still under construction?

00:53:47Marc:No, it's been done now.

00:53:49Guest:Been done for a while.

00:53:50Guest:So your corner was gone?

00:53:51Guest:The corner's gone, but now there's a room because everybody's left now.

00:53:55Guest:So I'm in a real room.

00:53:56Marc:Is your grandmother still around?

00:53:57Marc:No, she passed away, sadly.

00:53:59Marc:While we were kids, actually, still.

00:54:02Marc:Oh, okay.

00:54:02Marc:Laid the imprint, though.

00:54:03Marc:Yeah.

00:54:03Guest:All right, so you go back.

00:54:05Guest:So I go back, and that room is where I write.

00:54:07Guest:The Burial of Kojo.

00:54:10Guest:Where'd that come from?

00:54:12Guest:Well, it came from, like, I grew up around people that I knew were dealing with, you know, just deep guilt, deep, you know... Over one thing or the other?

00:54:25Guest:Over one thing or the other, you know, remorse, you know, just... And that struck you how?

00:54:29Guest:It struck me as, like, how do people...

00:54:32Guest:You know, how do people who have dealt with trauma move on from that trauma?

00:54:36Guest:Or how don't they move on, right?

00:54:39Guest:My mom had dealt with some trauma young.

00:54:41Guest:And so, you know, I had always been in awe of her ability to just go,

00:54:47Guest:All right, fuck it.

00:54:48Guest:Keep going.

00:54:49Guest:Right.

00:54:49Guest:Not be consumed by it.

00:54:51Guest:Not be consumed by it.

00:54:53Guest:You know what I mean?

00:54:56Guest:So anyway, I'd kind of myself gone, it's something that struck me.

00:55:03Guest:And because Ghana also doesn't, unfortunately, have the infrastructures around mental health.

00:55:10Marc:Neither does this country for whatever reason.

00:55:13Marc:But you were suffering with some trauma yourself?

00:55:15Marc:No.

00:55:15Guest:Not me myself, but I was witnessing a lot of people who had been doing it.

00:55:19Guest:My mom herself and their friends.

00:55:21Guest:You're the kid who's around, right?

00:55:24Guest:And you hear adults talking.

00:55:25Guest:Oh, wow, these people survived some shit.

00:55:28Guest:My mom was thrown in jail during the coup d'etat.

00:55:31Guest:You know what I mean?

00:55:31Guest:And she survived that, came out of jail.

00:55:34Guest:So these things are hard on them.

00:55:36Guest:But again, there's no...

00:55:37Guest:You know, they're no certified therapists to go talk to.

00:55:41Guest:So they talk to the guy who comes over to mend clothes from neighborhood to neighborhood.

00:55:45Guest:Or to each other.

00:55:46Guest:To each other, the friends that come.

00:55:48Guest:They send you to go buy some beer so they can drink beer and talk about their problems.

00:55:52Guest:And you hide around the room and eavesdrop on some of this shit.

00:55:55Guest:And you go, damn, they've survived.

00:55:57Guest:So anyway, it's always been something that struck me because there's no outlet for it.

00:56:01Guest:No real outlet.

00:56:03Guest:And so that's kind of where it came from, was just visualizing what it would be like if somebody has fucked up royally.

00:56:10Marc:But also there's no saying that even with infrastructure or help that they're going to unfuck themselves.

00:56:15Marc:That's a fact.

00:56:16Marc:That's a fact.

00:56:17Marc:So, you know, this guy is suffering alone.

00:56:20Guest:Yes.

00:56:21Marc:Yes.

00:56:21Marc:You know, other than his mystical daughter knowing.

00:56:24Marc:Knowing.

00:56:25Marc:But you don't know.

00:56:25Marc:You unfold that story very well.

00:56:27Marc:So, okay, so your mother has this vision, and you go back and do it.

00:56:30Marc:So I go back and do it.

00:56:31Guest:And so anyway, so now I get this call.

00:56:35Guest:You know, now things have happened quickly.

00:56:36Guest:Now, you've got to remember, I made—I shot Burial 17—

00:56:40Guest:18, I'd done a few festivals.

00:56:42Guest:19, Ava DuVernay, I picked it up and put it on Netflix.

00:56:47Guest:But you did the shorts earlier?

00:56:48Guest:I did the shorts earlier.

00:56:50Guest:Before Kojo?

00:56:51Guest:Before Kojo, yes.

00:56:52Guest:But those were more of music video oriented.

00:56:56Marc:Not narrative working.

00:56:57Marc:You were in it.

00:56:58Marc:Yes, exactly.

00:56:59Marc:Because Native Son is sort of you selling music.

00:57:02Guest:Exactly.

00:57:04Guest:It was all like visual albums.

00:57:06Guest:So now I get this call that they're redoing The Color Purple.

00:57:10Guest:And I go, boy, all right.

00:57:12Guest:I should go take this meeting.

00:57:14Guest:Right.

00:57:14Guest:But before I do, I go, I should do what I've always done.

00:57:19Guest:Yeah.

00:57:19Guest:I should sketch.

00:57:20Guest:Yeah.

00:57:21Guest:You know, they'd set the script.

00:57:22Guest:I'd read it.

00:57:23Guest:Had some things I liked.

00:57:24Guest:I was like, all right.

00:57:26Guest:So then I start sketching.

00:57:27Guest:But then I realize that I'm going like...

00:57:29Guest:I'm like, okay.

00:57:32Guest:Because I remember the Steven Spielberg classic.

00:57:34Guest:It was brilliant.

00:57:35Guest:But before the Steven Spielberg classic, I was sucked into Alice Walker novel.

00:57:39Marc:That book's something.

00:57:41Guest:That was, I mean.

00:57:42Guest:That's real poetry.

00:57:42Guest:Incredible poetry.

00:57:44Guest:And then I saw Steven's film and it sucked me in some more.

00:57:48Guest:But now here I am going, what am I going to contribute?

00:57:51Guest:I mean, and then it's a Tony Award winning Broadway play.

00:57:54Guest:I'm like, well, this thing.

00:57:55Guest:Did you see it?

00:57:56Guest:I didn't see it.

00:57:57Guest:But they had sent clips.

00:57:59Guest:So I was like, all right, well, it's done and done.

00:58:02Guest:We had the music.

00:58:03Guest:We had the music.

00:58:04Guest:It's done.

00:58:04Guest:Right.

00:58:05Guest:But then I go back to the Alice book.

00:58:07Guest:Right.

00:58:08Guest:Because I'm like, I have to have something to present.

00:58:10Guest:I can't just take a meeting.

00:58:12Guest:That's interesting.

00:58:13Guest:I'm one of those that go, I know it's an interview.

00:58:16Guest:It's not a social call.

00:58:17Guest:Right.

00:58:17Marc:But so you knew, though, enough to know that if you're going to shoot your vision of it, you're not going to get Spielberg's out of your head because it's already in there.

00:58:28Marc:There's nothing you can do about it.

00:58:30Marc:It's there.

00:58:30Marc:The musical you can avoid, but you got the music.

00:58:33Marc:Yes.

00:58:34Guest:So you went back to the text.

00:58:35Guest:Went back to the text.

00:58:36Guest:And I kid you not, first line, first page.

00:58:40Guest:She goes, Dear God, I'm 14 years old, always been a good girl.

00:58:45Guest:I go, Whoa.

00:58:46Guest:That's it.

00:58:48Guest:Anyone who's writing letters to God on this scale has got an imagination.

00:58:53Guest:And that's one thing I know how to explore.

00:58:56Guest:I'm an undisputed champion of exploring headspace in cinema.

00:59:01Guest:I go, I think I got something.

00:59:03Guest:So then that's when I start sketching.

00:59:05Guest:I mean, I go in a frenzy.

00:59:07Guest:That's how the giant gramophone comes up because I go, what can I do?

00:59:12Guest:So I keep pushing and pushing.

00:59:14Guest:So that's her imagination.

00:59:15Marc:So was that the first one you sketched?

00:59:18Guest:That was the first thing I sketched.

00:59:19Guest:And crazy enough, that's how I got Fantasia to say yes to this film.

00:59:23Guest:She didn't want to do it.

00:59:24Guest:Yeah, she was like, oh, she was like Blitz.

00:59:26Guest:It was painful to do it on Broadway, you know?

00:59:29Guest:It was deep.

00:59:30Guest:She herself has dealt with deep trauma, didn't want to deal with it at all.

00:59:34Guest:I said, look, Fantasia, I'm going to give Celie this massive, sprawling imagination.

00:59:41Guest:And here's the beauty.

00:59:43Guest:Often people who have dealt with trauma, miscategorized as docile and passive, well, that's not what we're going to do.

00:59:52Marc:We're going to give her this agency because we're going to be here.

00:59:54Marc:And also, she doesn't have to do it every night, five nights a week.

00:59:56Marc:If you shoot a scene, you go sit down for nine hours.

00:59:58Marc:That's it.

00:59:59Guest:That's it.

01:00:00Guest:So, I mean, I think eventually she was sold, but I think she was most sold by that gramophone because she went, well, if he's going to push it that far...

01:00:07Guest:Yeah.

01:00:08Guest:Why not?

01:00:09Guest:Maybe something in here.

01:00:10Guest:It's movies.

01:00:11Guest:So that's how I went.

01:00:13Guest:First, it was Scott Sanders.

01:00:14Guest:It was great.

01:00:16Guest:And he told me, I'll hear back.

01:00:19Guest:And I didn't know it was going to be.

01:00:20Guest:Who was Scott Sanders?

01:00:21Guest:Scott Sanders is the producer of the Broadway show.

01:00:24Guest:So Scott was the first person I interfaced with.

01:00:26Guest:And then he was like.

01:00:27Guest:That was your first interview?

01:00:28Guest:First interview.

01:00:29Guest:And he was like.

01:00:30Guest:And I was like, I'm done.

01:00:32Guest:Here I am throwing all these lofty ideas out.

01:00:35Guest:I'll never get this job.

01:00:36Guest:I'm on Zoom, so I just click off.

01:00:39Guest:I go, well, that was nice.

01:00:41Guest:I came close.

01:00:42Guest:Closer than any, by the way, closer than any Ghanaian ever has.

01:00:45Guest:You know, $100 million feature film.

01:00:49Guest:I mean, come on.

01:00:50Guest:No one where I'm from has had this shot.

01:00:52Guest:So I was like, if I can just brag about this alone, that's good.

01:00:56Guest:I've come far.

01:00:58Guest:Then comes a call.

01:01:00Guest:Hey, um, Oprah would like to talk to you about your ideas.

01:01:05Guest:I go, the Oprah?

01:01:07Guest:Man, shit.

01:01:08Guest:I was in Ghana watching Oprah with my mom, by the way.

01:01:12Guest:Anyway, so I go, well, I'll take the call.

01:01:15Guest:I take it.

01:01:16Guest:Uh-huh.

01:01:17Guest:Blanche, I heard you've got this idea.

01:01:19Guest:You know, so get into pitch mode.

01:01:22Guest:You're on Zoom with her?

01:01:22Guest:I'm on Zoom.

01:01:23Guest:I mean, this is deep COVID.

01:01:25Guest:This is COVID.

01:01:26Guest:I'm like secretly trying to screenshot.

01:01:28Guest:Again, if this is the furthest I'm going to come, Mike, I'm not going to fuck it up.

01:01:32Guest:You got the screenshot?

01:01:33Guest:I'm going to have something.

01:01:34Guest:I can't admit to that on a podcast.

01:01:39Guest:But I'll tell you what.

01:01:40Guest:I was like, you know what?

01:01:41Guest:Again, the furthest I'm going to come, incredible.

01:01:45Guest:I've come far.

01:01:46Guest:I talked to Oprah about my ideas.

01:01:48Guest:Then she hangs up.

01:01:50Guest:We all go.

01:01:50Guest:And then it's like, by the way, this is happening.

01:01:53Guest:This is a Monday.

01:01:56Guest:On a Tuesday, I'm talking to Oprah.

01:01:58Guest:Now...

01:02:00Guest:My agent calls me, hey, Oprah really likes your pitch.

01:02:04Guest:She wants you to talk to Steven about it.

01:02:06Guest:Yeah.

01:02:07Guest:I go, you know, Spielberg?

01:02:09Guest:I mean, that's Steven.

01:02:10Guest:A lot of Stevens now.

01:02:11Guest:Sure.

01:02:12Guest:You got to be sure which one they're talking about.

01:02:14Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:15Guest:So I get on with Steven.

01:02:16Guest:Yeah.

01:02:17Guest:Same.

01:02:18Guest:He goes, Blitz, I heard you got an idea.

01:02:21Guest:Yeah.

01:02:21Guest:I would love to hear it.

01:02:22Guest:Yeah.

01:02:22Guest:Oh, I get in the pitch mood.

01:02:24Guest:I'm showing him sketch after sketch, and this is what I'm going to do.

01:02:27Guest:Boom, bam, bam.

01:02:28Guest:I do my whole...

01:02:29Guest:He goes, that's fantastic.

01:02:31Guest:He goes, I think you're the man for the job.

01:02:35Guest:I go, what?

01:02:37Guest:And by the way, listen, I'm, after each of these Zooms, I have to go walk the block.

01:02:44Guest:Because it's literally, you got to remember, this is like when we were all confined.

01:02:48Marc:Well, it was good because, you know, you got these meetings pretty quick because no one had anything to do.

01:02:53Marc:That's it.

01:02:53Guest:Yeah.

01:02:54Guest:That's it.

01:02:54Guest:They were home.

01:02:55Guest:Yeah.

01:02:55Guest:Waiting to be scheduled on a Zoom.

01:02:56Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:02:57Guest:So then the last thing now becomes, I think you should pitch it to the studio.

01:03:01Guest:Wow.

01:03:02Guest:So now I'm like, okay, again, guys, this is the furthest.

01:03:06Guest:But you got a couple big names in your court.

01:03:09Guest:Already now.

01:03:10Guest:Going to the studio.

01:03:11Guest:And this is, I'll give it a shout out to Toby Emmerich because he goes, Blitz.

01:03:16Blitz.

01:03:17Guest:If Steven, Oprah, and Scott say you're the man for the job, you're the man for the job.

01:03:23Guest:Yeah, he's not going to take any blame.

01:03:25Guest:He goes, just tell me what you're going to do.

01:03:27Guest:Right.

01:03:28Guest:I go, wow.

01:03:29Guest:So you kind of got the job.

01:03:30Guest:In a week.

01:03:31Guest:Yeah.

01:03:32Guest:You know?

01:03:34Guest:But I mean, you know, then the hard work begun because now it's one thing to talk shit about how you're going to create an imagination.

01:03:40Guest:Other things, how you're going to do it.

01:03:43Marc:Well, what was those sketches outside of the gramophone?

01:03:46Guest:I mean, it was, you know, that...

01:03:49Guest:That, you know, 40-piece orchestra.

01:03:53Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:54Guest:Wow, I gotta push that envelope.

01:03:56Guest:Yeah.

01:03:57Guest:It was the tree, you know, these people around the tree.

01:03:59Guest:Sure, sure, that last shot, yeah.

01:04:00Guest:Last shot.

01:04:01Guest:It was all these things, you know, that I was like, it's a photograph.

01:04:04Guest:I was like, we're gonna push into the photo and then, you know, get to the other side of it when it's getting taken and all of these, like... That's some of the stuff in your painting, too, right?

01:04:12Guest:Yeah.

01:04:13Guest:Yeah, picture in a picture.

01:04:14Marc:Yeah.

01:04:14Guest:You know, that's another...

01:04:16Guest:Another way to collapse time for me.

01:04:18Guest:I love that concept.

01:04:20Guest:How do you get into the world, right?

01:04:22Marc:Right, because you got the photograph, right?

01:04:24Marc:And then even in the paintings that you do, the few I saw that were available online, there's something interesting about the old photograph in the same place you come back into in the present.

01:04:37Marc:Empty.

01:04:38Guest:Cyclical.

01:04:41Guest:Cyclical.

01:04:41Guest:The same work.

01:04:42Guest:And so, I mean, it was incredible.

01:04:45Guest:But once I started putting my team together, starting with Fatima Robinson, my choreographer.

01:04:51Guest:Fatima's a genius.

01:04:53Guest:Here's the thing.

01:04:53Guest:What has she done?

01:04:56Guest:What hasn't she done?

01:04:57Guest:Michael Jackson's Remember the Times.

01:04:59Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:05:00Guest:Jeez, all the Aaliyah stuff.

01:05:04Guest:She's a master.

01:05:05Guest:And I knew that this is going to be a ballet of sorts.

01:05:09Guest:The camera and the choreography.

01:05:12Guest:So those were the first two, Fatima and Dan Lauston.

01:05:15Guest:Once I knew I had Dan, because I'd seen Dan's work, he'd done the big John Wick stuff, but he'd also done Shape of Water with Guillermo.

01:05:22Guest:He'd done Nightmare Alley with Guillermo.

01:05:24Guest:So I knew the guy could do deep, intimate stuff.

01:05:27Marc:Sure, and he also knew his way around whatever you wanted.

01:05:30Marc:Yes.

01:05:30Guest:So I brought him in, and man.

01:05:33Guest:And then I brought Paul Astaberry, who had won the Oscar for the Shape of Water production design.

01:05:39Guest:And I love his work because it's very tactile.

01:05:42Guest:It's very real.

01:05:42Guest:It's immersive.

01:05:44Guest:The way I like to make film.

01:05:47Guest:So I brought them together, and I brought Francine, who's my choreographer.

01:05:50Guest:I mean, my costume.

01:05:51Guest:Francine had worked on Steven Spielberg's film.

01:05:54Guest:in the 1980s as an assistant costumer.

01:06:00Guest:So I brought her in as my lead now.

01:06:02Guest:She's amazing.

01:06:03Guest:I mean, those costumes.

01:06:04Guest:Out of this world.

01:06:05Guest:Once I got that clique together and I got the cast, it wasn't easy.

01:06:11Guest:Advocating for Fantasia, advocating for Taraji, Daniel Brooks, Coleman Domingo.

01:06:18Marc:He even got old Dion in there.

01:06:20Marc:I got Dion.

01:06:21Marc:He got a comic playing the heavy.

01:06:22Marc:Oh, my goodness.

01:06:24Guest:How incredible is that guy?

01:06:26Marc:Nailed it.

01:06:27Guest:What?

01:06:27Guest:What I loved was the myriad of experience.

01:06:33Guest:I mean, I had a Lou Gossett Jr.

01:06:35Marc:That's crazy.

01:06:35Marc:Yeah, it was crazy.

01:06:37Marc:Right?

01:06:37Marc:I mean, was he even really actively working?

01:06:40Right.

01:06:41Guest:But he came out.

01:06:42Guest:He was like, Blitz, I'm not missing this.

01:06:44Marc:Yeah, he's great.

01:06:45Guest:Oh, he was incredible.

01:06:46Guest:He had all the funny lines.

01:06:47Guest:How old is he in real life?

01:06:49Guest:Jeez, that man's got to be 90 now.

01:06:50Marc:Yeah, crazy.

01:06:51Guest:You know?

01:06:52Marc:Yeah.

01:06:52Guest:He was phenomenal.

01:06:53Marc:Yeah.

01:06:54Guest:But I was lucky to land that cast because that cast became...

01:07:00Guest:You know, and I always say this, I don't... I cast aura.

01:07:03Guest:Yeah.

01:07:03Guest:You know, I don't cast... You know, people say, you know, cast his talent.

01:07:07Guest:I don't know.

01:07:08Guest:I don't know enough to know anything about that.

01:07:10Guest:I just know that when I see this person and that person together... Feel a certain way.

01:07:15Guest:Does the chemistry work?

01:07:16Marc:Yeah.

01:07:17Guest:And so it was so good to start to see these chemistries start to work.

01:07:20Guest:Coleman, his size, his aura, his vibe.

01:07:23Marc:He played Mr.?

01:07:24Marc:Mr. Yeah, that's a heavy role, man.

01:07:26Guest:Incredible.

01:07:27Marc:And his arc...

01:07:28Guest:Unfathomable.

01:07:29Marc:Unfathomable because, like, you know, he's the charming devil.

01:07:33Marc:Yeah.

01:07:34Marc:Right?

01:07:34Marc:Classic.

01:07:35Marc:But then, like, somehow or another, you are capable of empathy.

01:07:40Marc:Empathy.

01:07:42Guest:Yeah.

01:07:43Guest:And that was work.

01:07:44Guest:I mean, again, that's like going into the layers.

01:07:46Guest:But that's the beauty.

01:07:47Guest:Because Glover played him heavy.

01:07:50Guest:Heavy.

01:07:50Guest:Yeah.

01:07:51Guest:You know?

01:07:52Guest:And again, it's all nuancing, right?

01:07:54Guest:I mean, that was the first thing Coleman and I talked about.

01:07:56Guest:We're going to make him human.

01:07:57Guest:Fully human.

01:07:58Guest:That means he's going to go through all the entire arc.

01:08:01Guest:He'll be charming.

01:08:02Guest:He'll be funny.

01:08:03Marc:Yeah.

01:08:03Guest:He'll be goofy.

01:08:04Guest:Yeah.

01:08:04Guest:But he'll also be evil.

01:08:06Marc:Yeah.

01:08:06Guest:Because, again, we're all capable of that entire arc.

01:08:09Marc:But also you kind of grounded the evil with the father early, with Dion's character.

01:08:13Marc:Yeah.

01:08:13Marc:Relentlessly evil.

01:08:14Marc:Yeah.

01:08:15Marc:No depth.

01:08:16Guest:Yes.

01:08:17Marc:Yes.

01:08:17Marc:So that was, you know, and that was the foundation.

01:08:19Guest:Yes.

01:08:20Marc:Right.

01:08:20Guest:So you had somewhere to go.

01:08:21Guest:And I think one of the...

01:08:23Guest:One of my most favorite shots is at that Easter table when everybody flees.

01:08:32Guest:And we adjust.

01:08:32Guest:The camera just lingers.

01:08:34Guest:And you see Mr. at one side and old Mr. at the other side.

01:08:39Guest:And you just sit.

01:08:39Guest:Right.

01:08:40Guest:And what you're seeing is generational trauma.

01:08:42Guest:What we're seeing is the understanding on how this man became who he is.

01:08:47Guest:We also put a banjo in his hand, which humanizes him.

01:08:50Guest:And if you notice, he was the only one without a song.

01:08:53Guest:He was the only one always trying to find a song.

01:08:55Guest:Always plucking away.

01:08:56Guest:Oh, from the beginning.

01:08:57Guest:From the beginning.

01:08:59Guest:He never landed on his song.

01:09:00Guest:He just was always just...

01:09:02Guest:Yeah.

01:09:02Guest:Trying.

01:09:03Guest:Everybody else belt it out.

01:09:05Guest:Right.

01:09:05Guest:He'll always just plucking at it.

01:09:06Guest:Right.

01:09:07Guest:And I think that was the beauty for having a master like Coleman.

01:09:13Guest:Yeah.

01:09:13Guest:Right?

01:09:14Guest:It's like someone who could play that arc.

01:09:16Guest:But also, I mean, Suge Avery.

01:09:18Guest:Yeah.

01:09:19Guest:You have a veteran like Taraji.

01:09:21Guest:Yeah.

01:09:22Guest:Who, when I met, you know, Sam, I had to convince her.

01:09:25Guest:I was like, look.

01:09:26Guest:You've got it.

01:09:27Guest:You can do it all.

01:09:29Marc:Only convince her because she didn't know if she was right for it.

01:09:32Marc:Yeah.

01:09:32Marc:And it was all about the singing.

01:09:33Marc:I've interviewed her.

01:09:35Marc:She's like the best.

01:09:36Guest:The best.

01:09:37Marc:Yeah.

01:09:37Guest:And I said, Taraji, just surrender to this thing.

01:09:41Guest:You got it.

01:09:42Guest:Yeah.

01:09:42Guest:And I mean, she comes up that barge, that red dress.

01:09:46Guest:The best.

01:09:47Marc:Yes.

01:09:47Guest:Yeah.

01:09:48Guest:That was all worth it.

01:09:50Marc:But it's interesting, like, you know, because I don't remember, like, I read the book a long time ago, and I kind of remember certain scenes in the film.

01:09:58Marc:I did not see the musical, but I didn't really realize that there are no white people in this movie, except for the bad ones.

01:10:06Marc:Except for Miss Millie.

01:10:07Marc:Right.

01:10:08Guest:Who's amazing.

01:10:08Guest:I mean, we do have the postman.

01:10:10Guest:He's nice.

01:10:10Marc:Right, but this is like, you know, that to keep it around, because you don't even feel the presence of it.

01:10:18Marc:No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:10:19Marc:It's very insular.

01:10:20Marc:And Miss Milley's got to carry the whole weight of reconstruction and racism in her...

01:10:27Marc:like, seemingly decent show.

01:10:29Guest:Yes.

01:10:30Guest:Yes.

01:10:31Guest:I mean, which I think, for me, two things.

01:10:34Guest:One is I loved the fact that we could just stay in this community, you know, and just deal with this very domestic, but also global, right?

01:10:43Guest:Because what Suge does is Suge brings the outside world.

01:10:46Guest:I mean, she's the reason we go to the movie theater.

01:10:48Guest:She's the reason we go to the juke joint.

01:10:50Guest:The reason we go to Memphis, like all these things that just kind of she gives us this outer world.

01:10:56Guest:And so we didn't need much else.

01:10:58Marc:Yeah, but it was great because like there is no what's almost always sort of played against it is that it's all being facilitated by white people.

01:11:07Marc:Yeah.

01:11:07Marc:So so none of that.

01:11:09Guest:Yeah.

01:11:09Marc:You know, that conversation doesn't happen.

01:11:11Marc:So these people can exist in a type of community that it may be in the shadow of that, but it's not spoken.

01:11:19Marc:No, no, no, no, not at all.

01:11:20Marc:And again, I... Was that a choice or was that the way it was?

01:11:23Guest:It was a choice.

01:11:23Guest:I mean, you know what I mean?

01:11:24Guest:Again, all these things, it's...

01:11:26Guest:It's like the white gaze, you know?

01:11:28Guest:Right.

01:11:28Guest:It's like, you know, The Color Purple is an insular text.

01:11:32Guest:Alice Walker wrote it inspired by our ancestors.

01:11:35Guest:They were very insular.

01:11:36Guest:And the only reason to step out of sight of that community is what happens when these people who are in this community have to venture into a world that they are not in.

01:11:45Guest:And Dan and I were very specific.

01:11:47Guest:And Paul said,

01:11:49Guest:the intimidation that we were going to create just by the visual landscape we were going to choose.

01:11:59Guest:Like when that car drives into where Miss Milley is, that gas station, we chose tall, but we hadn't seen anywhere like it before.

01:12:07Guest:And I start on a wide to establish the guys.

01:12:11Guest:This thing is not good.

01:12:12Guest:we start to feel uncomfortable as an audience.

01:12:15Guest:Because we're like, I've never seen any of this before.

01:12:19Guest:I've never seen... So it's clear that these people have moved away from their safety and their comfort.

01:12:23Guest:So when the encounter with Miss Millie happens, it's like, well, shit.

01:12:29Guest:That's what the white gaze gets you.

01:12:31Guest:That's what it is, right?

01:12:33Marc:And that particular device is something you've used in almost all your films.

01:12:38Marc:Absolutely.

01:12:38Marc:The journey.

01:12:39Marc:The journey.

01:12:39Marc:Away from the village.

01:12:40Guest:Yes.

01:12:41Guest:Right.

01:12:41Guest:Yes.

01:12:42Guest:And I find that also because, again, my family's from a village.

01:12:46Guest:Yeah.

01:12:47Guest:And I know what—I know the challenges we've suffered, you know, by being outside, by that migration.

01:12:55Guest:Yeah.

01:12:55Guest:Personally, communally.

01:12:57Guest:Yeah.

01:12:57Guest:You know, the other thing about the village—

01:13:00Guest:It's that everybody cares for the village.

01:13:02Guest:In the city, each man and woman for they self.

01:13:06Guest:And that's why you go to villages, they're clean and organized.

01:13:09Guest:You come to the cities, they're filthy and disorganized.

01:13:12Guest:But the sad reality is that everybody thinks the city is where life is at.

01:13:17Guest:Right.

01:13:18Guest:Right.

01:13:18Guest:And so this constant, you know, urban influx.

01:13:23Guest:Yeah.

01:13:23Guest:You know, it's kind of what starts to happen.

01:13:25Guest:And same thing happens with, you know, they're going to get ice cream.

01:13:29Guest:Yeah.

01:13:29Guest:In this nice white part of town.

01:13:31Guest:Yeah.

01:13:31Guest:Oh, shit.

01:13:32Guest:Now here we are.

01:13:33Guest:Right.

01:13:33Guest:And I think that ultimately for me as a filmmaker, you also realize you've been telling the same story over and over again.

01:13:40Guest:Right.

01:13:41Guest:They just have different forms, different vibes, different colors, different shapes.

01:13:47Guest:But it's ultimately the same story.

01:13:50Guest:It's how do people deal internally with their traumas and challenges.

01:13:57Guest:And how does the physical migration from rural to urban affect the psyche and the community?

01:14:04Guest:That ultimately, I think every film, I mean, even Blackest King's the same.

01:14:09Guest:This kid flees, goes to the city.

01:14:11Guest:Oh boy, here comes all the temptations.

01:14:14Guest:Now look at him.

01:14:14Guest:Now he has to find his way back.

01:14:16Guest:And for me, that journey, finding your way back...

01:14:18Guest:When Celie goes back.

01:14:20Marc:Yeah, she goes back, but she's informed and she has self-ownership.

01:14:25Marc:Yes.

01:14:26Guest:Yes.

01:14:27Guest:Which is also, I mean, that was me coming to America.

01:14:30Guest:I mean, it's always the same thing, right?

01:14:31Guest:It's like, oh boy, you know, I moved to New York because I wanted to be in it.

01:14:36Guest:And then you go, oh boy, once you get what you want, also you got to know when you have it.

01:14:41Guest:You go, okay, now it's time to get out.

01:14:43Marc:Right, but self-realized and self-actualized to the point where when you have the final scene,

01:14:48Marc:And Mr. is in those pants.

01:14:50Marc:Yes.

01:14:51Marc:That's silly.

01:14:52Marc:Fantasia plays that kind of beautifully.

01:14:54Marc:Yes.

01:14:54Marc:That, you know, you're as an audience member, you know this history.

01:14:57Marc:And in your mind, you're like, how do you ever forgive or accept or move on?

01:15:04Marc:But the village is powerful.

01:15:06Marc:The village.

01:15:06Marc:In the sense where she goes, all she says is, I can't believe you wore those pants.

01:15:10Guest:Yes.

01:15:11Marc:And then, you know, the empathy portal is open.

01:15:14Marc:Yes.

01:15:14Marc:And people can change.

01:15:15Guest:Yes.

01:15:16Guest:Yes.

01:15:17Guest:Which is, I think, you know, radical forgiveness.

01:15:20Guest:Yeah.

01:15:20Guest:Man, and accountability.

01:15:22Guest:I mean, those are the two things that all this work is about.

01:15:25Marc:But in that scene at that table with the two generations of the monsters, you know, you're waiting for that scene.

01:15:32Marc:Yeah.

01:15:32Marc:Because I remember, like, you know, I don't remember exactly the movie scene with Oprah.

01:15:37Marc:Yeah.

01:15:37Marc:But the way that she played Sophie.

01:15:40Marc:Yeah.

01:15:40Marc:What's her name?

01:15:41Marc:Sophia.

01:15:42Marc:The actress?

01:15:43Marc:Daniel Brooks.

01:15:43Marc:Yeah.

01:15:44Marc:Yes.

01:15:44Marc:I mean, like, that was crazy.

01:15:46Marc:It's incredible.

01:15:47Marc:The insanity of, like, her self-assuredness before she gets beaten.

01:15:51Marc:Yes.

01:15:52Marc:And then what happens to her.

01:15:54Marc:And I know that's in the movie, too, and it's in the book.

01:15:57Marc:But, you know, that's a hard moment to play, you know.

01:16:00Marc:And in the movie, Spielberg's movie, he really, you know, made Oprah disfigured.

01:16:07Marc:Yeah.

01:16:07Marc:Right.

01:16:08Marc:But, but.

01:16:09Marc:I didn't do that.

01:16:10Marc:No.

01:16:10Marc:I didn't do that.

01:16:11Guest:Because the scars are in something.

01:16:12Marc:That's right.

01:16:12Marc:Because she played that.

01:16:13Marc:And that's like, that was some, that was some fucking acting.

01:16:16Guest:It was incredible.

01:16:17Guest:And that turn was great.

01:16:18Guest:I, I've, I mean, I've seen people go from that laugh to that.

01:16:22Guest:I mean, I've.

01:16:23Guest:Oh yeah.

01:16:24Guest:Listen, I'm a, I watch it all.

01:16:25Guest:I've never seen that.

01:16:27Guest:Yeah.

01:16:27Guest:Now that, that is some mass, that's a masterclass.

01:16:31Guest:And I, again, I got to say.

01:16:33Guest:That scene had to be the hardest scene to shoot.

01:16:36Guest:I mean, first of all, any dinner scene with eight people, you're asking for it.

01:16:40Guest:Eating's the worst.

01:16:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:41Guest:It's like, you're asking for it.

01:16:43Guest:But I think... Because everybody's thinking like, where was I in the bite?

01:16:46Guest:Yes, it's exactly that.

01:16:48Guest:Oh, then we also had COVID strike four times.

01:16:52Guest:We were trying to do that scene.

01:16:53Guest:So you think about it.

01:16:54Guest:We always had to reset, come back three days later, come back four days later when people had recovered from COVID.

01:17:00Guest:So sometimes we had to shoot with stand-ins.

01:17:02Guest:Yeah.

01:17:03Guest:It's a miracle.

01:17:04Guest:When I watch that scene, I go, John Poe, my editor, is a genius.

01:17:08Guest:Because to assemble that out of that many different days, and also Dan Lawson's light as consistent.

01:17:17Marc:Yeah.

01:17:18Guest:Whoa.

01:17:18Guest:But that was something we did a lot.

01:17:20Marc:Not in the studio either?

01:17:21Marc:We were on a lot.

01:17:23Guest:Okay, you were.

01:17:24Guest:We were on stage for that.

01:17:26Marc:Yeah, a little control over that.

01:17:27Guest:Yeah, we definitely had control.

01:17:28Marc:Because that's the turning point.

01:17:29Marc:That's the beginning of the third act, basically, right?

01:17:32Marc:That's massive.

01:17:33Guest:Massive.

01:17:33Guest:It had to happen.

01:17:34Guest:This way she breaks free.

01:17:36Guest:But again, I mean, I have to say, it's really...

01:17:42Guest:the amalgam of talent.

01:17:45Guest:When you look at... I mean, a film is always that, right?

01:17:48Guest:It's like the ultimate's team sport.

01:17:51Guest:You go, yeah, sure, great.

01:17:53Guest:You have a great defensive player, but if your strikers and your midfielders are no good, you're going to struggle.

01:18:02Guest:And so it's like I was just lucky and really fortunate to have across the board some of the most incredible humans first.

01:18:11Yeah.

01:18:11Guest:But just masters of craft.

01:18:14Marc:And also, like every one of them, even from watching the Moderated Conversation in New York at that premiere, you know, everybody on that production, you know, anyone in the arts who is black, that story is part of them.

01:18:32Marc:Facts.

01:18:32Marc:That's a fact.

01:18:34Marc:Yeah.

01:18:35Marc:So, you know, the honor and also the intimidation to rise to the occasion to do justice to that story.

01:18:44Marc:Yeah.

01:18:45Marc:So that, you know, is in of itself a challenge.

01:18:50Marc:But because, you know, there is that commonality.

01:18:53Marc:Yes.

01:18:54Marc:Of wanting to get to the core of that.

01:18:57Guest:Yes.

01:18:57Guest:I mean, it was.

01:18:58Guest:I'll tell you what, man.

01:19:02Guest:I had to just say to myself.

01:19:05Guest:We're not remaking the color.

01:19:08Guest:I mean, first of all, you cannot compete with nostalgia.

01:19:11Marc:Right.

01:19:12Guest:I mean, because people aren't talking about the movie.

01:19:14Marc:Right.

01:19:14Guest:They're talking about their grandmother who passed away.

01:19:17Guest:That was her favorite movie that they used to watch every Sunday.

01:19:20Marc:Oh, that premiere, dude, you had the two casts from the musical, and one was in it, Fantasia, and Millie had watched it.

01:19:28Marc:You saw that?

01:19:28Guest:I saw it all.

01:19:29Guest:You saw that?

01:19:29Guest:I saw it all.

01:19:30Guest:So, again, you go...

01:19:32Guest:You have to decide that you are making an original film based on familiar characters, based on a familiar story.

01:19:42Guest:You don't watch Stephen's film.

01:19:44Guest:I didn't.

01:19:45Guest:The minute I got the job, I said, it's somewhere deep in the crevices in my heart.

01:19:49Guest:Great.

01:19:50Guest:That's where it stays.

01:19:50Guest:Yeah.

01:19:52Guest:The thing I did read a lot, though, was Alice's book.

01:19:55Guest:Well, of course.

01:19:55Guest:Because that's abstract, and I could... Between the poetry, I could find myself in it.

01:20:01Guest:Right.

01:20:02Guest:But ultimately, it was really about choosing an edge and deciding that we're going to make an original film.

01:20:10Guest:Right.

01:20:11Guest:Now, it was going to encapsulate a few things.

01:20:14Guest:One...

01:20:15Guest:Visually, we had to set ourselves apart.

01:20:18Guest:This is where Dan Lawson and I talked a bunch.

01:20:23Guest:We first decided, okay, first of all, you cannot...

01:20:27Guest:We cannot shoot a period film the way we're used to seeing them, which is, you know, seep your tone and fade.

01:20:35Guest:You know, we can't do that.

01:20:37Guest:One, I think it's a false equivalent in that people use photographs that have survived, I don't know, 100 years as the references, which...

01:20:46Guest:is deceptive because the reality is that these people lived in color.

01:20:51Guest:We had to push into the photographs.

01:20:53Guest:And it was even more vibrant if you think about it.

01:20:56Guest:There wasn't ACs.

01:20:57Guest:The kinds of lights that existed were warm and broad day and southern light.

01:21:03Guest:So things were vivid.

01:21:04Guest:So Dan and I decided very early that we were going to lean into, like, forget about how we think about period films.

01:21:11Guest:We're going to lean into what it really was.

01:21:13Guest:Make it now.

01:21:14Guest:Make it now.

01:21:15Guest:So that was one.

01:21:16Guest:The second thing was musically, right?

01:21:18Guest:How are we going to make sure that not only are we...

01:21:21Guest:And this is where now I can go back to all those years of making music.

01:21:25Guest:Yeah.

01:21:26Guest:Because one thing I know, playing, I don't know, I've lost count, hundreds if not thousands of shows over my entire musical career.

01:21:35Guest:The trying.

01:21:35Guest:Yes, the trying.

01:21:37Guest:One thing I learned is that

01:21:39Guest:music doesn't come out the sky.

01:21:41Guest:Yeah.

01:21:41Guest:Right?

01:21:42Guest:And certainly black music does not come out the sky.

01:21:45Guest:I mean, if you go from the spirituals that became gospel, gospel that becomes blues, blues that become jazz, and births everything else, the music always has a source.

01:21:54Guest:Yeah.

01:21:54Guest:You know, is it, you know, does the drummer start it off?

01:21:57Guest:Yeah, right.

01:21:58Guest:You know, does the bassist, you know, doo-doo-doo, like, it always has something.

01:22:02Guest:Or the voice.

01:22:03Guest:The voice, you know, does the voice just lead?

01:22:05Guest:Mmm.

01:22:05Guest:You know, what is it?

01:22:06Guest:It's all in there.

01:22:08Guest:So that's what we leaned into, was always going, what's diegetic that can kick this off?

01:22:14Guest:Because I watched almost every musical in existence.

01:22:17Guest:I mean, I was like, I mean, I got to tell you, that's hard.

01:22:22Guest:In preparation.

01:22:24Guest:I mean...

01:22:24Guest:So many of them are not good.

01:22:27Guest:Some great ones.

01:22:28Guest:Some great ones.

01:22:29Guest:And the ones that were great, the reason I think they were great was that they always had a source.

01:22:35Guest:An American in Paris.

01:22:36Guest:Oh, boy.

01:22:36Guest:Gene Kelly.

01:22:39Guest:We're into music.

01:22:40Guest:And I was like, those are the ones.

01:22:42Guest:That's the kind of musical I want to make.

01:22:44Guest:From the opening shot...

01:22:47Guest:The horse's hoofs.

01:22:47Guest:Yeah.

01:22:48Guest:That build a cadence.

01:22:49Guest:That's right.

01:22:49Guest:Little banjo.

01:22:50Guest:Yeah.

01:22:50Guest:Little patty cake.

01:22:52Guest:Yeah.

01:22:52Guest:Okay, now here comes the music.

01:22:54Guest:Guys building the house.

01:22:55Guest:Yeah.

01:22:56Guest:Or putting up posters.

01:22:57Guest:Yeah.

01:22:57Guest:Oh, hammers.

01:22:58Guest:Okay, we can turn that into it.

01:23:00Marc:So that's how we went into making it.

01:23:02Marc:And that's essentially cinematic.

01:23:05Marc:You're not doing that on stage.

01:23:06Marc:No, you're not.

01:23:07Marc:Right.

01:23:07Marc:Exactly.

01:23:08Marc:Because you can just, they're there.

01:23:09Guest:They're there.

01:23:10Marc:It's a visceral experience.

01:23:11Guest:Exactly.

01:23:11Marc:So how do you bring them into the visceral experience visually?

01:23:14Guest:Visually.

01:23:14Guest:That's what it became about.

01:23:16Guest:And I think those were the things fundamentally that Dan and I and the whole gang, Fatima, Robbins, we were always going, how can we make this lived in?

01:23:26Guest:When I split up the music into three parts, gospel, blues, and jazz, I went out, I found Ricky Dillard, who's a gospel aficionado.

01:23:34Guest:I found Keb Moe, who's a blues man.

01:23:38Guest:I brought in Christian McBride on jazz.

01:23:40Guest:Yeah.

01:23:40Guest:And I got these three guys together.

01:23:43Guest:I said, guys, this music we've gotten from Broadway.

01:23:46Guest:Right.

01:23:46Guest:It's great for Broadway.

01:23:47Guest:Right.

01:23:47Guest:But we've got to make it lived in.

01:23:49Guest:Yeah.

01:23:50Guest:People have to feel like this thing is coming out of the souls of these people.

01:23:53Guest:Yeah.

01:23:54Guest:How are you going to do that?

01:23:55Guest:And I mean, having those masters, phenomenal.

01:23:59Guest:And that's how we arrive here.

01:24:00Marc:Well, that's interesting because, you know, you had complete faith in the ensemble's emotional capacity to do the humanity of the parts.

01:24:10Marc:So then you can like go, all right, that's set.

01:24:12Marc:That's it.

01:24:13Marc:So now we do this.

01:24:14Marc:Yes.

01:24:15Marc:Then how do you approach the dance?

01:24:17Guest:Yes.

01:24:17Guest:Same way?

01:24:18Guest:Same way.

01:24:19Guest:Fatima and I sat through it and we said, listen, because I had this whole concept around, first of all, scale.

01:24:25Guest:We were going to make the biggest version of this property as it's ever existed.

01:24:30Guest:Proximity to audience today.

01:24:33Guest:You can't make a musical set 100 years ago and nobody have a way in.

01:24:40Guest:You have to be proximate to audience.

01:24:42Guest:But you didn't cheat.

01:24:43Guest:No.

01:24:43Guest:No, because you know what it is?

01:24:45Guest:Because you're looking at the continuum.

01:24:47Guest:What you're saying is, what has survived?

01:24:50Guest:Right.

01:24:50Guest:Because, you know, African-American life, history, and culture is an ongoing thing.

01:24:55Guest:Yeah.

01:24:55Guest:The dances these kids do today, they think they're inventing.

01:24:58Guest:No, dude, it goes back.

01:25:00Guest:Sure.

01:25:00Guest:So the thing is, you know, some of the fashion style.

01:25:03Guest:I mean, Mr.'s hat.

01:25:04Guest:I remember I went on in the truck, and I said, guys, we only want stuff that I think is cool to wear today.

01:25:10Guest:If I'm going to steal something off this truck,

01:25:12Guest:and go rock tonight to a party, that's what we're using.

01:25:17Guest:So that's what I want you to find me.

01:25:18Guest:I don't want you to find me.

01:25:19Guest:Yeah, it's period correct.

01:25:20Guest:Great.

01:25:21Guest:Everything's going to be period correct.

01:25:23Guest:But find what's cool.

01:25:25Guest:Find what's cool.

01:25:26Marc:But you didn't do that dumb trick with dialogue or rhythm or anything else where you sort of all of a sudden you're out of it because they wouldn't say that.

01:25:33Marc:No, exactly.

01:25:33Marc:No, we were very on it.

01:25:36Guest:But the thing...

01:25:37Guest:And then authenticity was my last pillar.

01:25:40Guest:It was SPA, scale, proximity, and authenticity.

01:25:43Guest:Authenticity was always going to keep us in check.

01:25:45Guest:So that's kind of what you're saying.

01:25:46Guest:So sometimes I go, it was always about passing it between Francine on costumes, Dan on cinematography, Paul, and Fatima.

01:25:56Guest:So one person takes proximity.

01:25:59Guest:So maybe Fatima might add a dance move that feels current.

01:26:02Guest:Good for you.

01:26:03Guest:But then in that...

01:26:05Guest:Francine's got to make sure we're authentic.

01:26:07Guest:Right.

01:26:07Guest:And Dan's got to make sure we got scale.

01:26:09Guest:Yeah.

01:26:10Guest:Paul's got to make sure.

01:26:11Guest:So it was literally, in every meeting we'll have, I'll go, who's taking scale?

01:26:15Marc:Really?

01:26:15Guest:Okay.

01:26:16Guest:Who's taking proximity?

01:26:17Marc:Yeah.

01:26:17Guest:And who's taking authenticity?

01:26:19Marc:Yeah.

01:26:19Guest:Because every shot has to have all three.

01:26:22Guest:Yeah.

01:26:23Guest:All the time.

01:26:24Guest:Yeah.

01:26:24Guest:It's the only way you can make something that resonates today, but feels authentic and grounded.

01:26:30Guest:Yeah.

01:26:30Guest:And yet still...

01:26:32Guest:feels like the biggest thing you're watching.

01:26:34Guest:Because, again, the other thing is, remember, Ceeley's life is a life on a farm, ultimately.

01:26:39Guest:It's a very, you know, it's a small world, ultimately.

01:26:43Guest:How do you make that world expansive and epic?

01:26:47Guest:Well, that comes from how do you deal with her headspace, how do you deal with environments of outside.

01:26:52Guest:Her need to escape.

01:26:53Guest:Her need to escape.

01:26:54Guest:That's it.

01:26:55Guest:Escapism.

01:26:57Guest:Right?

01:26:57Guest:And I found that that was the great mix of having all these people working in harmony trying to find this end goal.

01:27:08Guest:Yeah.

01:27:09Marc:And it came out beautiful.

01:27:11Marc:Sure.

01:27:11Marc:Moving.

01:27:12Marc:Thank you.

01:27:12Marc:A lot of crying.

01:27:13Marc:Oof.

01:27:14Marc:And, you know, the audience was engaged.

01:27:17Marc:How do you find it with every screening?

01:27:19Marc:It's magical.

01:27:20Marc:Listen, it's even crazy.

01:27:22Guest:I was just in Brazil.

01:27:23Guest:And, you know, you go to Brazil, well, it's not in England.

01:27:26Guest:I mean, it's not in Portuguese.

01:27:27Guest:Right.

01:27:27Guest:Okay.

01:27:28Guest:You know, some tough titles, but they're probably going to miss most of the jokes.

01:27:31Guest:Yeah.

01:27:32Guest:They'll probably miss a lot of the... Dude.

01:27:34Dude.

01:27:34Guest:Blew my mind.

01:27:35Guest:They got it.

01:27:35Guest:Laughed at everything, cried at everything, gasped.

01:27:38Guest:Yeah.

01:27:39Guest:Oh, my goodness.

01:27:40Guest:And then you go, boy, this thing's working.

01:27:42Guest:Yeah.

01:27:43Guest:And every room I've been in, I hear it all.

01:27:46Guest:Yeah.

01:27:47Guest:And what a, what a, I couldn't, I couldn't have imagined it.

01:27:53Guest:But somehow, too, I was like, I was like, it's the only version I make.

01:27:57Guest:Yeah.

01:27:57Marc:You know what I mean?

01:27:58Marc:Well, I mean, it's not like you couldn't have imagined it, but you did.

01:28:01Yeah.

01:28:02Marc:Kind of, right?

01:28:03Marc:It's crazy.

01:28:04Marc:I mean, not only did you imagine it, you had a plan and you put the infrastructure in place with the people that you could trust who were brilliant and you manifested the plan.

01:28:15Guest:That's it.

01:28:16Marc:Wow.

01:28:17Guest:Good job.

01:28:18Guest:Thank you.

01:28:19Guest:I'm still in wonderment, honestly.

01:28:24Guest:It is.

01:28:24Guest:And every time I get to talk about it with my cast, the emotion.

01:28:30Guest:And I'm also realizing what this means to them.

01:28:34Guest:You know, Fantasia being written off, done.

01:28:37Guest:Oh, American Idol, she'll never amount to anything.

01:28:40Guest:And watching her have a moment.

01:28:42Marc:Right now?

01:28:42Marc:Oh, she was so good.

01:28:44Marc:I mean, the acting.

01:28:44Marc:That's the other trick is that she knew how to sing real.

01:28:50Marc:Yes.

01:28:51Marc:Yeah.

01:28:52Marc:So that was in place.

01:28:54Marc:Yes.

01:28:55Marc:Same with Millie.

01:28:56Guest:Yes.

01:28:57Marc:Incredible.

01:28:58Marc:Yeah.

01:28:58Marc:Incredible.

01:28:59Guest:Really, really fortunate.

01:29:00Guest:Great job, man.

01:29:01Marc:Thank you.

01:29:01Guest:And it was good talking to you.

01:29:02Guest:Oh, it's amazing.

01:29:03Guest:Thank you for having me, man.

01:29:03Marc:Yeah, buddy.

01:29:04Marc:Good to talk to you.

01:29:04Marc:Appreciate it.

01:29:05Guest:Appreciate it.

01:29:11Marc:I love that guy.

01:29:12Marc:Man, we had it going.

01:29:14Marc:Got on a nice groove there.

01:29:16Marc:The Color Purple opens in theaters on Monday, December 25th.

01:29:21Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.

01:29:26Marc:Folks, now it's time to catch up on Full Marin episodes if you're a new subscriber or if you haven't signed up yet.

01:29:32Marc:Go check out our talk about some of the problematic episodes from our past.

01:29:36Marc:That's Archive Deep Dive from August 15th.

01:29:38Marc:I just ordered a copy of Crimes and Misdemeanors.

01:29:42Marc:By Woody Allen.

01:29:43Marc:And, you know, I know what Woody Allen did and I know where he stands in the world.

01:29:48Marc:But I don't know that I can separate that movie being a masterpiece, you know, from who he is.

01:29:53Marc:Yeah.

01:29:53Marc:But it's still like it's still part of me.

01:29:56Marc:That's right.

01:29:57Marc:And my my belief in that piece of work.

01:30:00Marc:Yes.

01:30:01Marc:And I think this speaks to the the ideas that we're talking about here about leaving things up that you can't.

01:30:08Marc:You know, for whatever reason, whether it's right or left reasons or ethics or whatnot, erasing history generally is not a great idea.

01:30:15Guest:That's right.

01:30:16Guest:Yeah.

01:30:16Guest:Right.

01:30:16Guest:But that's the thing.

01:30:17Guest:It's like I'm never obviously never going to go erase this Louis episode.

01:30:20Guest:But if I went unannounced and reposted it today, so it's the first thing that shows up in your podcast feed tomorrow, it would be loaded.

01:30:28Guest:Yeah.

01:30:28Guest:Like, that's a statement in and of itself to just put that episode back out there without context.

01:30:35Guest:But is it, though, if you just date it?

01:30:37Guest:Because no matter what— But that's what it would need.

01:30:39Guest:It would need more than just to have the date on it.

01:30:42Guest:It would have to have, like, we're putting this up there because we still consider it the best episode.

01:30:48Marc:Right.

01:30:49Marc:But also, like, no matter what you do, you know, people are going to have their feelings, perceptions, and beliefs about—

01:30:56Marc:you know, that person.

01:30:58Marc:And they're going to bring that to the episode.

01:30:59Marc:And that's just going to be the way it's going to be.

01:31:01Marc:We have two bonus episodes every week.

01:31:03Marc:So sign up by going to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus.

01:31:11Marc:And speaking of the full Marin next week, we have a mark on movies.

01:31:14Marc:Christmas day special.

01:31:16Marc:We'll have a collection of some of the movie talk we've done in the past year.

01:31:20Marc:Then on Thursday, my old friend, Matt B Davis, who's a comedian,

01:31:25Marc:who I knew many years ago were both sober guys.

01:31:28Marc:He went into the obstacle race game and he made a documentary about that, but we also had some personal stuff we had to deal with.

01:31:37Marc:This is a very, uh, a kind of engaged episode between a couple of guys that took different paths, but we're once on the same one kind of getting some shit straight.

01:31:49Marc:Exciting.

01:31:50Marc:Yeah.

01:31:51Marc:Matt B Davis on Thursday.

01:31:53Marc:Yeah.

01:31:54Marc:Okay, here's some pretty simple guitar that just made me feel nice.

01:32:57Guest:Thank you.

01:33:29Marc:Boomer lives.

01:33:34Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.

01:33:35Marc:Cat angels everywhere.