Episode 149 - Tom Scharpling
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Are we doing this?
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:With Marc Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckineers?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Whatever the fuck you want to call yourself.
Marc:I'm not really soliciting for new names for what the fuck people.
Marc:I did that once.
Marc:I know a lot of you are new to this, but...
Marc:I actually focused on it a great deal and spent a lot of time fielding emails about what the fuck to call you, what the fuckers.
Marc:And you can send them in.
Marc:And, you know, honestly, a couple of them have made it into the fold.
Marc:So I'm not discouraging that, but I'm not telling you to do it either.
Marc:By the way, Tom Sharpling is on the show today.
Marc:This is Tom Sharpling and myself are going to have a conversation today.
Marc:Like two people who know of each other but don't know each other at all.
Marc:Looking forward to it.
Marc:I hope you're looking forward to it, too.
Marc:And there's a lot of tie-ins here.
Marc:Tom Sharpling just directed the new Pornographer's new music video for the song Moves.
Marc:It's got a bunch of cats in it.
Marc:Wyatt Sinek, Ted Leo, Todd Berry, John Hodgman, John Worcester, who is a frequent collaborator of Tom's.
Marc:Again, but I just learned a lot of stuff about Tom.
Marc:I don't know Tom Sharpling.
Marc:I respect Tom Sharpling.
Marc:But here's how it all sort of comes together.
Marc:I get an email through my website from Mac over at Merge Records.
Marc:He's also in the band Super Chunk, as is John Worcester.
Marc:Tom Sharpling's buddy.
Marc:and collaborator and he said he's a big fan of my show and i said great send me some records and i put on super chunk while i was on the plane i was i was uh fielding emails on the plane mac and i had a nice conversation and i got a big box of records not record cds you know big box of cds all kinds of stuff in there big dipper super cluster the big dipper anthology big dipper was a band in boston who was there when i was there in the
Marc:From the guy in Big Dipper.
Marc:And I got a bunch of Super Chunk.
Marc:I got the Arcade Fire suburb.
Marc:Very excited.
Marc:Suburbs, which I didn't, I hadn't listened to.
Marc:I tweeted that I was listening to it.
Marc:And of course, someone on Twitter said, you're a little late to the party on Arcade Fire suburbs, the suburbs.
Marc:And I tweeted back, I like to wait till the party's over so I can determine whether or not it's my own excitement.
Marc:And that's how I feel about a lot of things.
Marc:Tom Sharpling, for instance.
Marc:I had known about the best show on WFMU for a long time.
Marc:I knew that he liked comics.
Marc:I knew that he used a lot of comics that were friends of mine.
Marc:But I knew that he didn't use me.
Marc:I didn't know why I wanted to be on his show.
Marc:But maybe he was right in not ever indulging me.
Marc:I assumed it was because Tom Sharpling did not like me.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is, I had not listened to Tom Sharpling's show.
Marc:I was not a comedy nerd.
Marc:I was not part of the crew.
Marc:I was not part of the in crowd.
Marc:I was never part of the clique or the group or the original cluster of musicians and comedians that defined contemporary comedy nerddom.
Marc:I was off out in the sticks somewhere doing standup.
Marc:I'm a lone wolf, a marginal character.
Marc:I've never been a guy that hangs out with the bunch.
Marc:I don't know why, it's just who I am.
Marc:And along the same lines, I went and started listening to the best show because I felt rude because I knew Tom Sharpling was great.
Marc:And I knew that everybody who loved him, they they loved him for a reason.
Marc:I mean, I've been hearing about Tom Sharpling for a long time.
Marc:I knew a lot of my friends were on Tom Sharpling's show.
Marc:I envied the show.
Marc:I wanted to be part of that show.
Marc:Before I was on radio, I was like, well, how do I get on this show?
Marc:Did I listen to the show at that time?
Marc:No, I did not.
Marc:But I knew that other people were doing it, so I wanted to do it.
Marc:I wanted to be one of the cool kids.
Marc:Tom Sharpling is a... He runs a cool kid plantation down there at the Best Show in Jersey.
Marc:But why didn't I listen to it then?
Marc:That's the question I always ask myself.
Marc:I always wanted to be part of the cool guys, but I was never a cool guy.
Marc:I was never, even when they're nerds, even when you call, you know who I'm talking to.
Marc:Some of you Tom Sharpling fans do not like me.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:That's fine.
Marc:I heard it first, but it's fine now.
Marc:But I had to ask myself, why am I cut off from this world?
Marc:And then I had to ask myself, why have I've always been cut off from this world?
Marc:And then I had to ask myself, why is it so difficult for me to make friends?
Marc:And then I had to ask myself, why do I find myself in a position to impose myself on groups of people and demand that they be friends with me?
Marc:And then I asked myself, what the fuck are you asking yourself so many questions for?
Marc:Maybe this is why you're irritating.
Marc:And then I answered, yes, that is true.
Marc:I spent a lot of time listening to Tom, and he's a great broadcaster.
Marc:And many of you know that already.
Marc:And he's got a great show.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:He's got a real style.
Marc:I have a lot of respect for people who master a craft.
Marc:And also, he's a great video director.
Marc:But this was the first time that we ever sat down and talked.
Marc:It's one of those WTF episodes where you genuinely hear me and him getting to know each other, having some common history, having some common friends.
Marc:There are some surprises, certainly to me there was, and having that first conversation of people who have mutual respect for each other.
Marc:So I hope you enjoy this.
Marc:Now let's listen to Tom and I, me and Tom, Tom Sharpling.
Marc:In conversation with me.
Marc:All right, fuck.
Marc:You know, let's just do it.
Marc:Have you ever gotten into that situation where... You can pull that thing right up to your face, too.
Marc:Have you ever gotten into that thing where you tweet something and then you're like, oh, no.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, I do that all the time.
Guest:That, for me, is like... I know when I start playing around there that I'm... I know I'm playing with fire when I'm trying to get a reaction out of something.
Guest:I'll write these deliberately vague things that people are like, what's he... Who's he complaining about?
Guest:It's like... And that's ultimately the effect I'm looking for is just to...
Guest:You know, like, somebody's driving me crazy.
Guest:You know, I'm reading a thing and I want to kill somebody because of it.
Guest:And it's like, who?
Guest:Who is it?
Guest:And I'm just like, please, what are you doing asking me this stuff?
Guest:It's like, but I'm leading you all the way one inch from asking me.
Guest:And then I act indignant that you had the nerve to press me on who I'm talking about.
Marc:Did you just cut him off there?
Guest:Yeah, I just let it.
Guest:I don't answer.
Marc:Well, I did that with this Gallagher thing.
Marc:I tweeted the event of him walking out of my room.
Marc:And then without really thinking about whether or not I'm going to use it or not, now people are like, well, you got to.
Marc:And then I listen to it.
Marc:I'm like, oh, no, I might sound like an idiot.
Marc:And not like an idiot, but there's a point where...
Guest:i i wouldn't have talked to him anyways and then i was like why am i why am i doing a mike wallace yeah on this old clown yeah exactly somebody who it's like he's not even somebody who is like who merits that level of treatment it's like guys like that usually just you wonder where they went right and he's just kind of still beating against the glass trying to right i'm still here yeah yeah and that uh
Guest:Paul F. Tompkins told me that Gallagher on it, I mean, I can't wait to hear it, but just that he was wondering why he didn't get to do, like, why they didn't think of him as a letterman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's like, because everything you're doing is the opposite.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:well you do nothing like what those guys are but let's waste six months and ask you maybe if you'd want to be that guy you're like yeah you know and what's it it's that notion of of that everybody's on the same trajectory you know that idea and i mean you're probably familiar with that and show them as i mean i should introduce you my guest is uh tom sharpling uh is here in the garage from uh the best show kfmu
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:W-F-M-U.
Marc:Did I do that wrong?
Marc:I said K-F-M-U.
Marc:Well, I got a thing in my head where I grew up with Ks.
Marc:I apologize.
Marc:K-Q-E-O.
Marc:K-R-K-E.
Marc:I grew up with Ws.
Marc:You grew up with Ws, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I've done that twice.
Marc:I've done, and I feel embarrassed now.
Marc:I was nervous about you coming over, actually.
Guest:I was nervous to come over.
Guest:You were?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:Because you used to scare me in the 90s.
Marc:I know, but I always had this... You were always this guy who had this community of people, and you hung out with all the cool guys.
Marc:And I've been out... I'm this marginalized freak.
Guest:No, but you were.
Marc:I thought you didn't like me.
Guest:No, but when I started, I kind of...
Guest:Like everybody and don't like everybody at the same time.
Marc:Oh, you know what, dude?
Marc:I've got to do another intro because I'm not going to deal with your fans saying like, Maren fucked up the call letters.
Guest:No, everybody will be fine with that.
Guest:My fans, you're reading them wrong.
Guest:Not two of them.
Guest:Well, you can't worry about the two of them.
Marc:What about the other 90 of them?
Marc:There are only 92 of them.
Marc:They're very vocal.
Marc:Okay, let's bury the hatchet.
Marc:There is no... Okay, well, that... Just look, when I was...
Guest:A young comedy fan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would go to eating it every Monday night.
Guest:At Luna.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In downtown New York.
Marc:Ludlow Street.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's gone now, which is probably a good thing.
Guest:Leveled.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that was the right move to what that place was.
Guest:Bury it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now it's just a strange, maybe a mystical site for those who care.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:This is where it was.
Marc:This is where it happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you know, this is where Soybaum was here.
Guest:He was born of this place.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, but you were like the king of that place.
Marc:Was I?
Guest:Yeah, like every Monday, you were up almost every Monday for huge stretches of that place, and it was kind of...
Guest:you carved a wide berth through whatever the bill was.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:And you were kind of...
Guest:documenting what every week was for you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was exciting to see that.
Guest:But then when I would say to you after it, which I tried repeatedly to just say, I was not looking to be your best friend.
Guest:I was not like, you know, I did not have an agenda other than to say, hey, that was great tonight.
Guest:And you would just go like, yeah.
Guest:And then kind of like turn your head away from,
Guest:And that happened.
Guest:And then you did it at, when I saw your one-man show, you did it.
Guest:The same thing.
Guest:It's like, is it me?
Guest:Am I just like, am I sending some signal out that he's just rejected me?
Guest:Because it's like, I'm going to see his one-man show now.
Guest:It's like, I'm making a real effort to be a supporter.
Guest:And it's like, hey, great show.
Guest:I was like, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:come on it was that bad come on it was that bad well you know you know what i was thinking about what's not you at all okay i was being completely self-absorbed which i am and and i find that when i come off stage the the intensity of of of like how did i fuck up what did i do wrong what did i just put out there how you know what are they thinking of me that's where i'm at i'm like you know like i can't even enjoy the high sure
Marc:So if someone comes into that, they're like, good show.
Marc:I'm like, really what I'm saying is like, what do you mean?
Marc:I mean, how is it good?
Marc:Because I'm not, you know, and it comes out like, yeah.
Marc:And I just kind of move on.
Guest:Because for me, I made a decision that I could have felt that I did the worst show or anything.
Guest:If I did something and if somebody liked it, it's like, it's not my place to...
Guest:to uh to take that away from them yeah the fact that they enjoyed it it's like there's nothing to be there's definitely nothing to be gained in in kind of disabusing them of the notion that they the thing that they enjoyed was enjoyable right well then you're lucky i didn't talk to you because i would have you would have worked i would have been like but was it all good or yeah or just parts of it so it would have been a point by point breakdown oh yeah okay
Marc:There's nothing more like, you know, it resonates with me is that that moment in I'm assuming you're a Lester Banks fan.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That moment in Almost Famous where, you know, when when Hoffman playing Bang says, we think I'm going to hang out with a kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then they cut to like them hanging out.
Marc:Like, you know, given a little bit of time, I probably wouldn't have never left your side.
Marc:We would have ended up at Veselka.
Marc:You would have been telling me what I thought.
Marc:And then it would have been, you know, I've been, really?
Marc:And then I would have made notes.
Marc:And you would have changed the entire show.
Guest:And then I would have had to have pre-cell phone faked some sort of way to get... To get out.
Guest:Would have had to have said that someone had... I was getting called at Veselka by the, you know, like, we have a call for you.
Guest:You know.
Marc:Maren says he's your friend.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, that could have happened.
Marc:But I certainly apologize for being rude.
Guest:You know, you did one thing at Luna that...
Guest:It hit me so... I was there with my friend, and at that point I was working in a music store.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my friend was writing for MTV, writing commercials.
Guest:And then you were on stage, and I was already feeling not good about where I was in life.
Guest:And, uh, you started, you were going on some story and then you said, that's like the difference between someone who works at a music store versus a guy who's working up at MTV.
Guest:And like, literally I was next to my friend and it was that dynamic.
Guest:And I was just like...
Guest:Oh, this is... This is not good.
Guest:I am not in a good place at all.
Guest:This guy's actually... Now there's people on stage making fun of the hole I'm in.
Guest:Like, using it as a demarcation point where I'm actually at in my life.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:And my friend is literally working at MTV now writing up there.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And that kind of spurred me.
Guest:I was like, I have to change things.
Guest:So I helped?
Guest:You did help.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And what happened?
Guest:So you were working in a music store where?
Guest:in uh in new jersey selling sheet music to piano teachers it wasn't even like oh my god people were like oh you work in a record store it's like i don't know i sell i sell uh piano teaching books for those five-year-olds you're working in another year old another time yeah exactly and it was fading you could see it aging out while you're there yeah and then it was like the point where people are like uh
Guest:Yeah, the internet's coming.
Guest:That's not going to affect us at all.
Guest:People want books.
Guest:And it's like, they want books.
Guest:They want to feel a book.
Guest:And I was like, you know, it probably could affect this thing really hard if it just keeps going the way it's like, because that was at the point where like...
Guest:You'd go from a 14.4 modem to like, wait, it's twice as it's 28.8 now.
Guest:And you're watching it go faster each, every three months.
Guest:It's like, no, this is going to age out.
Guest:And this whole thing is going to die.
Guest:And I need to get out of here.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, you mean the sheet music.
Marc:But that's so weird.
Marc:With sheet music, it's like, it's not even a conversation starter.
Marc:Like, you know, if you work, like someone works at a music store, you're like, what kind of CDs or records you got there?
Marc:No, sheet music.
Guest:No, we have...
Marc:I mean, where do you go from there?
Guest:Do you have Scott Joplin's... He's like, yes, we do.
Guest:We do.
Guest:We're funny, Scott Joplin.
Guest:Do you want to play it?
Guest:You can't hear it, but if you're great at piano, I can help you out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's interesting that we had that relationship that somehow or another I read your mind or something.
Guest:It was shocking.
Guest:I just remember feeling... I can still feel...
Guest:the impact of what that felt that night it just felt like the like that dull hammer of reality hitting you like like i have to change things tonight well god i'm glad i i was there for that or spurred that on yeah you were the impetus who was the mtv guy it was my friend joe who uh joe ventura who i write with uh we've written a couple movies together oh yeah do i do i was wondering if i knew him
Guest:He was, you know, because that scene was always me and Joe Ventura and Phil Morrison.
Guest:We would always go.
Guest:Phil the director?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I remember him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, I think that I was, you know, at that time so consumed with my own shit and self.
Marc:Like, because the one thing I envy about...
Marc:you know, the way you've handled yourself is that, you know, there was a community.
Marc:I mean, there is a comedy community.
Marc:You know, I have been sort of this lone renegade weirdo that has met everybody.
Marc:I've had experiences with everybody.
Marc:You know, everybody knows who I am, but I don't have any friends.
Marc:I mean, who are my friends?
Marc:And it's because, like, you know, at that time, the difference between me and you was like, I'm going to hang out with those guys.
Marc:I'm going to hang out with Phil, you know, and...
Marc:And we're going to hang out.
Guest:Because then all of a sudden it's like, hey, these UCB people just moved from Chicago to New York and hung out with them.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, you know.
Marc:Yeah, me, Tom and Phil were going out to a thing.
Marc:But all I was thinking is like, why the fuck isn't Phil using me in his shit?
Marc:You know, where the fuck is Marc Maron's piece?
Marc:I experimented with bitterness for five years in that place.
Marc:You know what I learned after all that?
Marc:I'm glad I helped you.
Marc:But what I learned after five years of doing Luna or whatever I was doing down there is like, you know, bitterness is only funny in a very small group.
Marc:And if you can't get those people around you, there's no way you can't be moved on from if you're the guy that's doing the experience you had with me.
Marc:If you're the guy that does that for people, eventually you're the guy that goes, oh, he's still doing that?
Guest:You're that guy.
Guest:But it's been exciting watching.
Guest:You've come out of it also.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You're working hard to get past this.
Guest:And as somebody who has been a watcher of your career, there's points where it's just like,
Guest:this jerk has a podcast now i'm gonna root against this thing oh yeah and i'm just like oh that's kind of good these interviews are pretty good i guess i gotta be on board with this stupid thing like and just like oh i want to hate him it's like it's like could you imagine what it must have been like to be like friends with miles davis like we're just like the worst human ever yeah but then you're just like at the club watching him play that stuff and you're like
Guest:Like, yeah, this guy's pretty great.
Guest:But then he comes on stage and treats you like garbage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then watching the person of you matching the thing that you created at the same time, it's like you're doing the work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's very exciting.
Marc:Well, I appreciate that.
Marc:And also, though, you being someone who's astute, an astute critic from your... No, you are.
Marc:No, well, yeah, sure.
Marc:But I mean, you are an arbiter of taste to some degree.
Marc:And I think that the sad thing about people like Miles and people who surround those kind of people is they'll take so much shit
Marc:From those, you know, the people that sit around like, Miles hit me.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I'm bleeding.
Marc:Miles did this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we're not those kind of people.
Marc:But I mean, in terms of, and I certainly appreciate that because I knew there was a struggle going on.
Marc:I literally was nervous.
Marc:Like, I don't go out and get milk for anybody.
Marc:And for some reason, I woke up this morning like, I want to make sure Tom, if he needs milk, I want him to have milk for the coffee.
Guest:Where's that coming from?
Guest:Why am I scary?
Yeah.
Marc:No, you're not scary.
Marc:It's just that I respect what you do, and I know that I've been doing what I do long enough in comedy and also with this thing to know that the way we look at comedy might be a little different, and how we look at the people we like might be a little different.
Marc:So I assume that it was a chore for you to sort of like me as a comic because I'm pretty raw.
Marc:I'm pretty...
Marc:I don't know what it is, self-involved, and that's what I talk about.
Marc:And when I see the sort of community built around you and the comics that you get behind or you are friends with, I feel like I'm different than a lot of comics.
Marc:But I just feel like I appreciate those guys, but, man, I'm not the kind of comic that Tom likes.
Guest:But if you're talking about, like,
Marc:Patton or Paul you know it's like those guys like they tell stories now you know yeah yeah yeah what they do I've always felt I have felt like not only do I not have the the the love and support of uh the douchebags but then like I don't have the love and support of the nerds I've always felt like a man without a country Tom and I felt that you were you were one of the princes of a country that I exactly not not allowing you to cross the moat yes that I was like please Mr. Sharpling
Marc:Pull down, you let the drawbridge down.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And you were like, no, he cusses too much.
Guest:No, I just, well, it is funny.
Guest:I do have a thing with cursing.
Guest:Since I'm on the terrestrial radio, I've kind of, two things have happened from me being on the radio where it's like I don't curse in front of a microphone just because I've trained myself.
Guest:When I'm in that room in the studio, even when the previous show's playing and I'm not on yet, I still don't curse in that room because it's just a thing.
Guest:It's just like you can't curse in that room.
Guest:And the other thing is I've lost the ability to laugh from hosting a radio show for that long because it's such a...
Guest:It's like I don't laugh out loud.
Guest:I laugh in my head now.
Guest:It's not a good thing.
Guest:I'm not happy about it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:At all.
Guest:No, I feel like something was taken away a little bit.
Marc:Because I do, you know, we do... What are you about when you do the bits with your partner?
Guest:Well, that's the thing is that when I do it with John Worser and I do the calls, I have to play it straight.
Guest:And I think it's really funny because I wrote it with him.
Guest:So I'm getting a chance to live out the thing that we wrote all week.
Guest:But I still have to play it straight, so it's kind of taken... I can't laugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I've found myself not being as good a laugher as... And it drives me crazy when everybody else is such a... Like, when funny people are also good laugher, it's like, how are you doing that?
Guest:It's like, I'm just... Because I can't.
Guest:It's like, oh, that's funny.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:I sit watching people.
Guest:It's like, oh, this is the funniest thing I've ever seen.
Guest:And I'm not... It's like, I should be doubled over, but I'm just like...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you hear people with those fake laughs and I can't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't want to do that.
Guest:The radio laugh.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when they can talk one second later, it's like, well, that's a fake laugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When the person's losing it and then they're just so anyway.
Guest:I wanted to...
Marc:Well, to have that kind of, like, that uncontrollable laughter that was so good when you were a kid, like, you know, really, where you can't stop laughing about something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I miss that.
Marc:Oh, I know.
Marc:I think I started laughing a little more.
Marc:And then there was also, in comedy clubs, you know, regular comedy clubs, there's the comedian's laugh, which is, there's several variations.
Marc:There's the, ah...
Marc:There's that one, which is sort of like an acknowledgement.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's funny.
Guest:And I think I've landed somewhere in that neighborhood with the kind of, huh.
Marc:Do you think it's something about like, because I know when I started doing this show that I started to laugh more because I started to listen.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Without thinking about myself.
Marc:Do you think that somehow or another you're not engaging the same way?
Guest:You know, I think it's because I feel like when you're doing the show all by yourself, I'm also thinking about, I'm watching the levels, and I'm also thinking about six other things that are going on at the same time.
Guest:And I just think the primary thing is the thing that's going on, but I'm still getting pulled in different ways.
Guest:I just can't be completely dedicated to the one thing.
Guest:And it's kind of...
Guest:Kind of a bummer.
Guest:I wish I could laugh more.
Marc:So you wish you could enjoy it more?
Marc:I mean, are you still enjoying the show?
Marc:I mean, it's been, what, 11 years now?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I stopped enjoying it last year.
Guest:And you were vocal about that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I really did.
Guest:I stopped liking it completely.
Guest:And then I took like six weeks off.
Guest:Where'd you go?
Guest:I just did not go on the radio is where I went.
Guest:Anywhere but the station.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was this thing where I was just like...
Guest:It was shocking how little I didn't, how I didn't miss it at all.
Guest:Like, I was just like, well, maybe I might be done, done.
Guest:Because I'm not, I'm not like away for a week and just getting that itch where it's like, oh, I got to get back in there.
Guest:It's like, no, this is pretty good not doing this.
Guest:I don't miss it at all.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, and then.
Guest:There was a WFMU has a record fair that they put on once a year at the end of October.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I wanted to go to that.
Guest:And it's like, if I go to that stupid thing without being on the radio, everybody's just going to come up to me and ask, like, when are you coming?
Guest:What's going on?
Guest:It's like, I got to go back this Tuesday before the...
Guest:thing that way I can nobody will ask me so like I'm back so I just like forced myself back I was just sour being back like it felt like I had to be there and then um I just like I don't know there's been these points where I just was like you know what I'm gonna just do it almost on a week by week basis like I'll see if you want to do it yeah like I got it back and like I had a good show like three shows into coming back and it was like
Guest:Yeah, I'm having fun doing this because I think I let go a little bit, and I was just kind of like, I'm only going to do this for me to do it.
Guest:And if I have this thing in my head that ultimately it's just a week-by-week thing, and if it goes south again, I'll leave again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's been great since I kind of took that.
Guest:Because it feels like it's a never-ending thing sometimes.
Guest:I know, yeah.
Marc:Because you're like, and then I've got to call the guy, and the thing's got to, fuck.
Marc:but no I think that there's a point like what I'm finding now and you've been doing it a lot longer than I have is that whether or not you believe you're being yourself or whatever you are on the mic you know that this medium is intimate so if you're gonna sit on a mic for three hours you're gonna come out unless you're some sort of fucking robot
Marc:yeah yeah yeah and and that you know after a certain point you you literally get a type of drain emotional drain that is you know akin to a relationship where it's like you know i can't i i need a break we need counseling haha yeah yeah yeah i mean because i don't know how you feel in terms of of your audience but those are our people and obviously we both ended up
Marc:In front of mics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it seems to be what we excel at.
Marc:It's not... It wasn't necessarily my original plan.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what was your original plan?
Guest:Well, I was doing... I started off doing a music show on the station.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Just playing records.
Guest:And then I would get on mic and talk.
Guest:And then the balance started to...
Guest:shift a little bit where i was playing a few less records and talking a few more minutes and i was like i really like being on mic and then i would take a couple phone calls and then john worser and i came up with this call-in idea that we were gonna do and it's like and everybody was like that does not sound funny at all like that sounds like it's gonna bomb so hard and it went really well and then kind of got flush with that thing of like wait maybe this is a place you can be funny and then
Guest:And then I ended up feeling that kind of... Then that might have been around the time when you said your MTV record store thing.
Guest:And I was like... So I quit the station because I was like, I got to get good at writing.
Guest:I got to dedicate myself to...
Guest:finding a job and i can't have something like this that's taking me in the you know off course yeah so i quit for a couple years quit radio yeah yeah quit the quit the the station and so so when i said that was that juncture it's like the radio thing's just you know i'm not even getting paid for that yeah yeah i got to get out of the sheet music thing i'm gonna be old there exactly and i'm gonna be trapped yeah and i'm gonna focus yeah i need to i need to start writing and
Guest:and just get myself out of this place in my life.
Guest:It's a horrible place.
Guest:Because you can feel that you might never get out of it.
Guest:There's no guarantees on any of this stuff.
Guest:Ever.
Guest:It's like you know people.
Guest:who who never get beyond a certain point for whatever reason it's like there's no guarantee i'm not one of those people and there's no guarantee i didn't hit i just didn't hit the ceiling whatever i'm hitting now we're just like i might be done yeah this might be it for me and it's like but then in your head you think it's like no this is not it i'm still going on a journey i still have other places that go maybe you don't maybe this is maybe this is the end of your line that's a horrible struggle because like i don't know who you are in your mind but you know in those moments
Marc:it's almost a moment where you literally, there's a part of your heart that's going, you know, you're like reaching out to your parents almost.
Marc:It's like, just take me to the place, mommy.
Marc:You know, there's this moment, like, how do I get to there?
Marc:And then you realize, like, I gotta cry and then I gotta do this work.
Marc:But there's something about that fear... It's that weird area where the fear of success and the fear of failure is the same thing.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Like, if I finish it, what if it stinks?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:And then if I don't do it, I'm still stuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That thing?
Marc:Do you ever get that?
Guest:Yeah, I get... I mean, the fear of success is not the thing for me.
Guest:It's just the fear of... I think the fear of failure is almost all of it for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just like, I feel that, like, looming... But it doesn't stop you from doing things, which is good.
Guest:No, exactly.
Guest:And I think it's at a point where I know that...
Guest:You know, I've always thought it's like, you know, the amount of geniuses that are out there.
Guest:It's like there's like five of them.
Guest:Maybe it's like, you know, like a Paul Thomas Anderson.
Guest:Like that guy is on a different plane than all of us.
Guest:And it's like and then there's like the bottom 20 percent.
Guest:It's like the Rupert Pupkins of the world that are just, you know, completely talentless.
Marc:But keep going.
Guest:Keep going.
Guest:Don't belong.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know.
Guest:They have to learn that themselves, that when the cards get dealt, that, okay, it wasn't for me.
Guest:But that middle stretch, all it is is that separates the people is just how hard you work on it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if you kind of keep your head in the game.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was just like, you know, I can do okay in that mix.
Guest:I know I'm not a genius, but I know I'm pretty sure I'm not like Rupert Pupkin.
Guest:You know, like I know I'm not a fraud.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The authenticity thing is important.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like if I do the best that I can do.
Guest:Then then that takes care of a certain amount of it.
Guest:Like I've always kind of operated with that.
Guest:Right.
Marc:In the pain for you, like in the sense that, like, you know, when I get to a point because I think we're probably similar in some ways in the way of the amount of pressure we put on ourselves.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's part of why I quit.
Marc:I wanted to.
Marc:You hit a wall.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's like, what else?
Marc:What else am I going to do?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and you feel like you're spinning.
Marc:You're like, I've done this.
Marc:I mean, it's not changing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my thing is also listener.
Guest:It's a listener supported station.
Guest:And you talk to people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's no there's no way for me to ever monetize what I'm doing there because it's.
Guest:I'm working for the greater good of this non-commercial station, which I am completely on board with.
Marc:But but is there some sort of reflection of that?
Marc:Is that did that function also to sort of support not not your sort of self-sabotaging element, but but the idea that there's something noble about it, number one, and also number two, there's integrity built into it.
Guest:Yeah, but you get tired at a point, even with the integrity.
Guest:I got so tired of just like this thing that was just...
Guest:That it just felt like it would never end, and it felt like I had a certain amount of responsibility to the station to be earning a certain amount of money to keep the thing going, which was not really true.
Guest:I do make a good amount of money when it's the fundraiser for the station, but the station has...
Guest:survived people you know the the big djs coming and going it's always managed to survive and it's like but i kind of put an unrealistic thing on myself thinking that it's just like i have to be here every week and the thing that was fun it's fun for everybody else kind of became a job for me a job that i could never i can only lose money on yeah yeah and it's just it's like
Guest:When does this job that I can only lose money on and it will never end, this job?
Guest:So I just got really sad.
Guest:It's like a sentence.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:But when did the thing take off?
Marc:Because I think that maybe a lot of my listeners, I don't know if they're familiar with that.
Marc:I want to make sure that I talk about that a little bit because your show is really...
Marc:one of the most respected comedy radio shows.
Marc:And, you know, I don't even want to say that.
Marc:It's a radio show that sort of runs a full range of music, some sketch, your point of view, a lot of call-in stuff.
Marc:But it is a very highly respected show, certainly in the comedy community and in the world of comedy nerddom.
Marc:Uh-huh, yeah.
Marc:Now, when did, is that, did you find?
Marc:No, that's super flattering.
Marc:Oh, it's not minimizing?
Marc:Oh my God, no.
Marc:I couldn't read the look.
Guest:For you to do the, like, you're the master of the, of like, the, it's like the pat on the back where you realize you're getting pushed when you do those intros for people.
Guest:It's always like, so it's like, ooh, ah, ah.
Guest:It's like, wow.
Marc:I got nothing but respect for you, Tom.
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:It's sad that I didn't get one of them.
Guest:Like the thing, like, so apparently you're doing some thing.
Guest:Well, the thing is, is that... I guess people like what you do.
Guest:Like those, when you do those intros and you're like...
Marc:No, because for some reason, there are certain people... I had Tompkins in here the other day.
Marc:Him and I don't speak.
Marc:I thought there was tension with us for years, and there may have been.
Marc:But it turns out we're a lot alike.
Marc:And then I'm sitting around the other day, I'm listening to your show, and I'm like, there's no...
Marc:there's no distance between me and this guy.
Marc:No, it's just sort of two different bodies doing the thing.
Guest:It's like, that's all it is.
Marc:But I mean, you know, in our minds, but is, you know, there's a similar makeup, but there is something I want to talk about that.
Marc:I started earlier that, that maybe we can get into, but I want to talk about the, the sort of explosion of your show, because it seems to me that, that the best show Largo,
Marc:alt comedy in New York, that you were there with the congealing of what ultimately became the alt comedy universe.
Marc:And I think that you paid, you were part of building that, whether you like it or not.
Guest:I mean, that's kind of, I thought I was, well, I have no idea.
Guest:I really don't.
Guest:I mean, it just, it's like I was doing this thing.
Guest:I quit the radio.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Took a couple years off.
Guest:I came back.
Guest:And then I quit again because my wife got sick.
Guest:So I quit.
Guest:And then I was just like, I thought I was done with it.
Guest:Because I was just, you know, and...
Guest:Then I was like, see, I was watching ASCAT one... In New York?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, watching the UCB.
Guest:The improv?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, at that point, like, the thing, like, you know, everybody wants to have that thing that you got to see.
Guest:And it's like, when you get to watch those four people do the thing and all the other people up there, like, you'd go and see Tina Fey every week up there doing improv and... Matt Besser.
Guest:Rachel Gratch and Matt Besser and Mauricio Sanz.
Guest:It's all of them up there.
Guest:I was like, that's the thing I got to see that I can kind of lord over people for the rest of my life.
Guest:You were there at the beginning.
Marc:I got to see that every week.
Marc:And you weren't working when you were going there at that time?
Guest:I was doing a lot of writing, but it didn't have anything to do with that world.
Guest:I would just write whatever anybody would hire me to write.
Guest:I would write for basketball magazines and...
Guest:MTV commercials and stuff.
Guest:So I eventually did get up at MTV.
Guest:Good for you, Mark Barron.
Guest:Look at me!
Guest:I'm here, writing a horrible commercial.
Guest:Being paid the little money for the big commercial.
Guest:Yes, and getting treated like garbage by third-rate comedians in the hallway.
Guest:People who I watch bomb at...
Guest:I watched vomit eating it are making me feel horrible up here.
Guest:So I watched them do the thing.
Guest:I was like, you know, if I ever went back to the radio, I would want it to be the comedy thing, not the music thing.
Guest:So I went back, I told the station, I was like, hey, I'd like to try a comedy show.
Guest:And they let me do it.
Guest:And I'm telling you, for two years, no one wanted it.
Guest:No one.
Guest:I would get emails every week.
Guest:You're horrible.
Guest:Your show is not funny.
Guest:The sketches you do are endless.
Guest:Who are these people?
Guest:And pointless.
Guest:Just listeners.
Guest:Just listeners.
Marc:Just writing.
Marc:You're terrible.
Marc:What's the general audience for it at the time that you were doing that, though?
Marc:I mean, because I'm sure you built a huge audience for them.
Marc:But at that time, was it just, who was it?
Marc:It was a radio audience.
Guest:It was the WFMU audience.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They were like they weren't on board with it yet.
Guest:And then it just became this thing just like slowly, like there'd be like a person here and a person there would respond to it.
Guest:and then it just kind of you know it it was i mean it i mean it was two years of me just having to just just take abuse of just people like calling and saying like you're not funny people write like this show sucks like email i'm just the meanest stuff you'd ever write and it's at the point where i didn't have the people's like well no there's also these other people who like it so you're wrong there weren't those people yet you didn't have
Guest:the support yeah it was this thing it was just like me going blind in through the woods just like i know i'm right on this that's good like and it's making me laugh i'm gonna trust that it's funny and that this person's an idiot and then like slowly like a one or two people get on board and then when it when we started podcasting it in that was like five years ago i think that was the kind of real turning point because people had it everyone could get it yeah yeah and have it in their head wherever they wanted
Guest:And then it became a thing where I think a lot of bands listen to the show when they're on tour.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So you got a lot of music people were getting into it.
Guest:And then a lot of, you know, all the musicians want to be funny and all the comics want to play in a band.
Marc:So that axis came on board at the same time.
Marc:And that, I guess, still, there's some part of me that thinks that that indie rock best show, Junction, was really the... I still think that on some level that you helped define this generation of comics or a certain bunch of them.
Guest:Well, I...
Guest:It doesn't hurt that I am a complete bully on the radio and kind of tell everybody how important I am and that this is the best thing you've ever heard.
Guest:But is that real?
Guest:You know, I don't listen to much other stuff because I don't want to be influenced by this.
Guest:I listen to your show.
Guest:I listen to...
Guest:uh, Paul Tompkins podcast.
Guest:And, um, you know, not much else than that.
Marc:I don't listen to hardly anything.
Marc:I was in NPR in the morning cause I need news.
Marc:The rest, it's all in my head chiming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think part of it is that, you know, when I was in high school, I listened to a lot of talk radio.
Guest:Who was your guy?
Guest:I listened to, I listened to, uh,
Guest:A lot of Howard Stern when I was in high school.
Guest:And then I listened to a lot of this guy, Bob Grant, who was this right wing, you know, a kind of douchebag on W.A.B.C.
Guest:Was he from out here?
Guest:I remember.
Guest:No, he was he was in for like guys like Joe Pine and those guys kind of came up at the same time as those guys.
Guest:Yeah, but he would be the guy who.
Guest:who just screamed at callers and just like, he would just like, get off my phone.
Guest:And like, and he was just like, go on these, these tirades.
Guest:And then he would do this thing.
Guest:It was like, he was politically, he was like the worst bully, just like encouraged.
Guest:He would like, wanted to start a, like a sponsorship of just like, like of black males, uh, agreeing to be, you know, you know, uh, sterilized and just like, like inhuman monster.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:But he was, like, this total showman where he would just be, like, he would just, like, yell at these callers with this, like, flourish.
Guest:And he would be, like, he would do this, like, when somebody would go, like, hey, Bob, how are you doing would just set him off.
Guest:He's just, like, what's on your mind, Bill?
Guest:Like, he would just get furious.
Guest:The guy had the nerve to ask, how are you doing today?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then he would do this thing that was this humanizing thing.
Guest:Once every four months, he would do this thing, get at Grant, the gag hour, where once every six months, he would just let all the people he treated like garbage call up, and he had to just take it.
Guest:He was not allowed to hang up on them for one hour every six months, and it was the funniest thing.
Guest:These people were just ripping him back.
Guest:But that level of theater with it, I was like...
Guest:That's what you can get from callers.
Guest:You can push them, but they're going to push back if you let them push back.
Guest:And it's that thing, because that's the one thing I like about my show, is it's just like, I really don't know where it's going to end up.
Guest:When it starts at 9 o'clock, I could write down how I think it's going to go.
Guest:It would be wrong every week, because when you open the phone lines up, it's like, anything can happen.
Guest:And it's just like...
Guest:So you just have to go where that takes you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like, that Bob Grant thing, the theater of that.
Guest:And just, I think, you know, the bullying thing, the Howard Stern thing is just, like... Because I liked it when he was, like, the guy, like... When he would always claim that he was being blackballed.
Guest:Like, these just lies.
Guest:Like, they won't let me do this.
Guest:They won't let me do that.
Guest:Like, who's they?
Guest:And it's like, you just, you know... You're making it up.
Guest:Yeah, but then people are like, yeah, they won't let him do it.
Guest:And they're like...
Guest:And they would just lie about being, like, half Jewish.
Guest:And they'd just be like, which half isn't?
Guest:And you hear his parents call up, and his mother is like, you know, clearly a Jewish woman.
Guest:And it's like, well, you know, this is not adding up.
Guest:But you realize that on radio you can put a certain amount of theater into it and a certain amount of outsized stuff.
Guest:And I was just like, that's what I want the thing to be.
Guest:And that's kind of...
Guest:it eventually got there yeah but then thankfully i had people liking it and now i get callers where they're just like i scream at them i hang up on them and then they like send me an email like hey so sorry about that you know i called up and then i uh started talking about uh you know this you know burrito place i like to go to and then you were clearly bored and then you yelled at me and hung up i'm so sorry and i write back i'm like
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I'm the jerk.
Guest:Don't you realize?
Guest:You did not do anything wrong.
Guest:I was playing the role of a bad person on that call.
Guest:And you are okay.
Guest:Don't actually beat yourself up over this.
Guest:It was all fake.
Guest:How many emails like that do you have to write?
Guest:You know, usually one a week.
Guest:yeah yeah like one person who actually takes the trouble to write like feels that bad about it and they're just like you know i gotta apologize to this guy that call did not go well and i feel really bad that i called and he wasn't happy it's like no no no i'm horrible you were fine
Marc:Well, I think that's an interesting thing because there's something about the intimacy of this thing.
Marc:And you obviously have regular callers.
Marc:I mean, I did morning radio briefly where we had callers.
Marc:And then you'd be like, oh, there's Brian.
Marc:And it's a relief.
Marc:You know, because you build comedic relationships with strangers and they know their part after a certain point or else they're too delusional to understand that they're playing a part, which is even better.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you look forward to it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But the way you engage, because I got aware of theater, too, but my emotions are pretty invested and obviously yours are, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That you know when you heard some dude's feelings, you can get an email.
Marc:He's like, dude, I fucked up your whole show.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:You're like, no, God.
Marc:It's like, no, you helped.
Guest:You don't realize.
Guest:You filled four minutes of the three-hour thing.
Marc:You were playing a part in it.
Marc:And do you find that your fans misunderstand a certain...
Marc:Like, I get emails, man, and it seems like we're both pretty sensitive, if I can say that.
Marc:I'll respond to most of them, especially if they're argumentative.
Marc:If they're shitty emails, I'm like, who the hell are you to, you know?
Marc:I mean, I stalked one of your fans.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he's not even my guy.
Marc:And I'm like, how could you not like me?
Guest:I think he does like you now.
Marc:No, he does.
Marc:We had a Twitter thing.
Marc:But we're talking to thousands of people.
Marc:And I'm sitting here going like, oh, Christ, this guy in D.C.
Guest:Hey, guy.
Marc:I think you misunderstand me.
Marc:You know everybody has to be on board with this thing.
Marc:But I don't even want that.
Marc:That's the weird thing.
Marc:Do you ever find that?
Marc:I don't know if you think that everyone has to be on board with it, but that when you do push someone's buttons, that you have to find out why, and then you have to decide whether or not it was a reasonable criticism, and they might not... Can you accept if they just don't like you?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, I'm fine with that.
Marc:I like...
Guest:sometimes I don't look I clearly don't want this to be the norm but when some guy calls up and it's just like you know what you're horrible like at this point because at least I know there's a foundation for a thing and it's not I'm not alone just getting yelled at by some guy with things I'm horrible it's like what some guys like you know because everybody else is being nice and trying to do the show and when some guy calls it was like you're unfunny and you're horrible it's like I kind of look at that as
Guest:That's fine, too, you know, because that's your opinion.
Guest:And there's certainly people I don't think are funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You accept that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if I'm going to.
Marc:I accept that, too.
Marc:I guess I'm not characterizing the way I know that not everyone's going to like me.
Marc:I know that most people haven't for a long time.
Mm hmm.
Marc:But I think that, like, do you, I guess I do a type of radio, like we were talking in the kitchen, where, you know, I got people that bring me bread.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And cookies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And stuff.
Marc:Because they know you now.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, I don't, they do.
Marc:That's the weird thing is, like, I'm starting to feel, like, when I'm in my house and I'm off the mic or I'm out, you know, like, when I go out in the world, this is the only place I talk, really.
Marc:I don't have a wife.
Marc:I don't have that many friends.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So I'm starting to realize, holy shit, these people really do know me and they're coming at me with all this familiarity.
Marc:And there's two ways to look at that.
Marc:Try to have some boundaries and respect their space.
Marc:Or like, hey, half the work's done.
Marc:You might as well marry her.
Marc:But I mean, do you ever walk away feeling like either they know you too well or they think they know you?
Marc:What's your feeling about the relationship you have with your fans?
Guest:You know, I'm okay with it.
Guest:I think part of that was maybe why I checked out also because I was feeling like I was carrying...
Guest:the burden of everybody listening to like i gotta be there for them yeah yeah and it's like but ultimately i decided i had to be there for myself right and if they want to hear it then that's that works for them i can't you can't do it for anybody else primarily it's like that should be a nice benefit of it yeah and but yeah it's you know i mean i get people writing with
Guest:asking for career advice and stuff.
Guest:Do you write back?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do, but I had to draw a line on it because it was just like... I can't carry everybody's water all the time.
Guest:I'll write back, but it can't be a thing where we're going to talk...
Guest:Oh, yeah, you write that.
Marc:All the way through this now.
Guest:You give them the advice, and then, like, two weeks later, they're like, okay, I tried it.
Guest:Yeah, but there was times... And I would do... There's times where I would be like, all right, let's talk about that now.
Guest:And I'm like, okay, I'll read your script.
Guest:And I would, like... I just don't have time for that.
Guest:I went too far with it.
Marc:Well, yeah, because then your whole life is sucked up.
Marc:Just responding to emails.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Half my morning's done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I drew a line with it, and I do think to...
Guest:I think the listeners get it completely, and everybody's completely respectful of the fact that it's like, yeah, there is a line.
Guest:He's busy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:But then even when they know that, you get the email.
Marc:It's like, hey, Tom, I know you're busy.
Marc:Yeah, I know you're busy.
Marc:But what about me?
Marc:I'm over here.
Guest:I'm different.
Guest:I need you, Tom.
Guest:But everybody's really good about it, ultimately.
Guest:And it's up to me to tell people.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:I can't do everything for everybody.
Guest:And I think there was a part of me where I thought it's like,
Guest:There's this, like, yeah, when I'm on the radio, I'm doing this fake version of my, you know, this exaggerated version of myself for the three hours a week, and then I'm normal off the radio.
Guest:But then I started to think, it's like, well, maybe I'm doing, maybe that's really me, and I'm just this contracted version of myself for every other minute but those three hours, where it's like...
Guest:Because there is something so liberating to when it's just like, to just go like, you're making me mad.
Guest:I don't want to talk to you.
Guest:And then you say, we're not talking anymore.
Guest:Because you can't be like that in real life.
Guest:You can't just go like, I'm done with you.
Guest:I'm hanging up on you.
Guest:You make me mad.
Marc:Yeah, I tried that.
Marc:They leave, the career goes away, the life goes away.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:There's a certain amount of, yeah.
Guest:There's a political element to being in the real world that you can't be.
Guest:You can just be.
Guest:It's called compromise.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:And it is usually good if you want people to stay in your life.
Marc:It helps.
Marc:Now, do you find you're obviously a thinky guy and we're heady people.
Marc:I can feel that.
Marc:Because if you're sort of reflecting on yourselves at home going like, is this the real me?
Marc:Or is that the real me?
Marc:That you've put some thought into this.
Marc:Do you know what it's serving in terms of your emotional makeup?
Guest:You know, I think it serves as a way to just get the blackest part of yourself, to turn that into something positive.
Guest:Gold!
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:If you can get the thick, like the tar that's in your gut, and you could turn it into something where somebody's like...
Guest:That was so much fun.
Guest:It's like, that's a pretty good situation.
Marc:Sure, there's coal in my heart, and now there's a diamond.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I'm turning that coal into diamonds.
Guest:And I also feel that maybe part of the reason why the show got a little more connected to people is because I stopped.
Guest:I started talking more about me on the show, too.
Guest:I don't do it nearly to the degree you do.
Guest:And I would not be comfortable talking to that degree.
Guest:But I definitely started telling more, just talking more about things that were happening.
Guest:And even if I'm doing it in a refracted way, I think there was a certain amount of connectivity.
Guest:And also being able to lower the...
Guest:Be like, hey, I mess up all the time too.
Guest:I'm not just playing this role of yelling at everybody like I'm perfect.
Guest:It's clear that that's a goof that I'm acting like I make no mistakes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that my bravado is clearly just this Wizard of Oz kind of...
Guest:It's just like I yell like a loud mouth like I'm the best.
Guest:It is clear.
Guest:I'm just a person behind that.
Guest:And I think, you know, I think people understand that people listen every week.
Guest:They understand it's radio.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that I I blur some of those those lines a little bit.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:But then I do what you just talked about.
Marc:Like when I get on a mic, I'm on a mic.
Marc:And then when I'm in there, I'm in there.
Marc:And if I'm in there and I'm going, no, I can't.
Marc:You know, if I'm talking like mic land.
Marc:Do you find that in your real life?
Marc:Because when you're on this, your brain's operating in a certain way.
Marc:That your facility to talk and keep talking is very good.
Guest:Better than most people.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And there's something that's so...
Guest:narcissistic about it where it's just like oh no i'm just gonna keep talking and talk and talk and talk and i'm gonna keep going and for hours i'm going to do it and if nobody calls i'll keep talking too and that's okay and it's just because what i'm saying you're gonna want to hear yeah it's like there's something that's
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's a great thing to be in touch with.
Guest:I mean, it's a skill that there's people who can do it.
Guest:They go around selling pharmaceuticals to doctor's offices that can do that.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But at least this is for entertainment reasons.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:When I first figured out that skill, I was very excited about it.
Marc:Because you're great on the mic.
Marc:I know you're very aware of when you take pauses.
Marc:sometimes and and and when you uh uh you move off my because i love that kind of radio and when the music is going to come in or out or that and also the music bed is is fucking great that the thing that's great about your show is it's like a multi-textured show and i think you really appreciate the the medium of radio and that because you're in a station you know you have all you understand that like we can build we can go to the moon here yeah yeah it's fun to just feel and to just know that
Guest:You know that weird moment where you're just like, I'm alone in this room.
Guest:It's like, I'm alone in this room, but I'm in front of a bigger crowd than anybody playing, if I was playing a football stadium.
Guest:There's more people listening to this than could fill a football stadium.
Marc:Do you think about that on the mic?
Marc:I find that it really is a blind spot for me.
Guest:For me, I think about it because I'm...
Guest:horrendous in front of audience like i would never want to perform in front of audiences really never ever and also you have callers so you know that there's people out there immediately listening to you yeah and it's it's so there is a live thing i can see that there's a chat going on sure and there fills up lines are lit up yeah flashing boxes exact so i know who's out there that's a pulse it's a lifeline that's i miss that you know the calling like call now and it's like bing bing bing bing and they just go yeah yeah it's like yeah
Guest:But I've never ever, like any, you know, people are like, I got in front of an audience and I knew that's where I belong.
Guest:It's like, whenever I've gotten in front of an audience, I knew that's where I didn't belong.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:Well, it's just like, it just doesn't feel like my thing at all to talk to a room of people.
Guest:Because I, you know, I sweat and it's not good.
Guest:And then I start thinking about how much I'm sweating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think I also like to spread out with things.
Guest:And you can't spread out to the degree I like to spread out in front of an audience.
Marc:Yeah, because all of a sudden they have expectations that are very immediate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, can we put a black screen in front of these people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I can talk like a person?
Guest:Yeah, please.
Guest:I'm building something here.
Guest:Just trust me.
Guest:It might take 20 minutes.
Guest:You're going to be very happy when we get there.
Guest:But you've got to spot me 20 minutes.
Guest:It was just never my upbringing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like I always wanted to be writing, which is a solitary.
Guest:What is your upbringing?
Guest:You're a Jersey guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you come from, you're a Jew, right?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Get out.
Marc:I knew this was the moment that was going to happen.
Marc:But what was your brothers, sisters?
Guest:Yeah, one sister.
Guest:Older?
Guest:One year younger, just total middle class.
Guest:What did the old man do?
Guest:What did he do?
Guest:He worked at a newspaper printing plant.
Guest:They made a local paper?
Guest:Made a couple different newspapers, and then my parents became self-employed.
Guest:So I grew up in a kind of struggling country.
Guest:Middle class, but maybe the sliding up and down in what middle class means.
Marc:The shift in that place.
Marc:You weren't down here.
Marc:You weren't up here.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But it was variable.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:We saw the ceiling and floor of the middle class.
Marc:Yes, so.
Marc:Self, they ran their own business, huh?
Marc:Realty, what is it?
Marc:Just doing imprinted shirts and things like that.
Marc:Silkscreen business.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That must have been fun on some level.
Marc:No, no, that was not fun on any level.
Marc:My dad got involved with the silkscreen business, and he just thought it would be hilariously fun to be able to make up shirts, and then he, you know, lost a lot of money.
Guest:Yeah, and it's because you're bidding to print, you know, soccer jerseys and landscapers and things.
Guest:It's like, you're not doing like, hey, you know, the Who we're going on tour.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like, no, you're doing a thing for some guy running for an electrician who's screaming at your parents.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because, you know, the shirts don't look right.
Guest:It's like I'm watching some guy yell at my parents all the time.
Guest:From Al's Pharmacy or Al's Electric.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Like, this is not the shirts.
Guest:We said a three-quarter sleeve.
Marc:This is the... It's like...
Marc:Seeing that, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, owning your own business thing was not an option.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:But did you ever make Ramones shirts or anything like that?
Marc:No, there's nothing.
Guest:They did landscapers and electricians.
Guest:I mean, that's who you do when you're in New Jersey.
Marc:Sure, making money, sure.
Marc:My family's from Jersey, actually, and I think that not far from you.
Guest:Well, how long were you when you were not in New Jersey?
Guest:You were in New Mexico.
Marc:Well, I was born in Jersey City.
Marc:At that time, my parents lived in Wayne.
Marc:And my grandparents lived in Pompton Lakes most of my life.
Marc:So I was in Pompton Lakes a lot.
Marc:And that's not too far from where you are.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Because for me, it's that thing about being...
Guest:In New Jersey, I always went into New York when I was a kid.
Guest:On the bus?
Guest:I would take the train.
Guest:Oh, you'd take the train.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like I had New York there all the time in my life.
Guest:And I would go in a lot, but I would still just go back to New Jersey.
Guest:And that's kind of what I have still done.
Guest:Because, you know, I want to have a driveway and a car and things like that.
Guest:That's why I think I like it here better than New York.
Marc:Well, yeah, I feel the same way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you said you were brought up to write.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And that's sort of what you focused on.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And so the live performing wasn't for you.
Guest:No, it was never my thing.
Guest:And I didn't come up with the people who were doing that at the right time, maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:solitary group of people writing you know record reviews and things so rock and roll was your thing yeah yeah it was I mean it was literally when I was a kid it was it was music and comedy were equals now what what determines for you do you have an idea other than an impulsive idea obviously you have great taste in music I listen to the shows and you know it's always runs a full range of kind of like interesting rock and but still some you know some kind of like indie rock camp thing going on a bit sure
Marc:yeah yeah and uh but you know when it comes down to like comedy like i i'm i've become fairly forgiving because i come from you know a fairly aggressive trench oriented stand-up you know beginnings you know i you know my you know my comedy runs from you know the borscht belt to you know i i have a hard time judging too hard okay uh in and in my sense like you know when i like for instance like tim and eric
Marc:I understand Patton.
Marc:I understand Paul.
Marc:But there's a world of comedians that you've worked with.
Marc:You've worked with Tim and Eric and stuff, right?
Guest:Yeah, I'm friends with those guys.
Guest:I wrote for their first... The first show was called Tom Goes to the Mayor that...
Guest:I wrote on with John Worcester for the two seasons, just, you know, just pitching ideas to him and stuff.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, like, my question is, like, I can look at Tim and Eric and realize, like, these guys are like Zappa, you know, or they're like, you know, they're the ween of comedy.
Marc:I mean, I understand, you know, the way they play with the mediums of television.
Marc:And I get it.
Marc:You know, I can see that there's genius here.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But I don't laugh a lot.
Marc:Do you laugh a lot?
Guest:Yeah, you know, I laugh at, I can laugh at the rhythms.
Guest:Look, I don't laugh at anything.
Guest:But I can, I think there's rhythms that come out of what they do that I find really funny.
Marc:Yeah, okay, I can understand that.
Marc:I'm not knocking them.
Marc:I'm just saying that, like, I'm just trying to figure out what determines whether something's funny if we're not laughing.
Marc:Like, cause sometimes I listen to your show and, and, and, and there's a, there's a, you seem to have an idea of who is funny and who isn't.
Marc:And it's based on your emotional reaction to it.
Marc:But do you find ever that, uh, do you, do you think you're an elitist?
Guest:Who do you think I don't think is funny?
Marc:Well, I'm going to like, okay.
Marc:Like, like right after you, I'm going to have Bobby Slayton in here for an hour.
Marc:Do you know who Bobby Slayton is?
Marc:Pitbull of comedy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you think he's funny?
Guest:I always thought of guys like that were funny.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:You know, it's from a, it's from a certain,
Guest:Put it into context.
Guest:No, he was funny.
Guest:He was stand-up.
Guest:I grew up admiring equally SCTV and Saturday Night Live and then watching all of the late-night talk shows.
Marc:I was just so... All of those things were my favorite.
Marc:I liked all of it.
Marc:Well, I guess maybe what I'm asking without... I don't want to seem passive-aggressive, so I don't want to do it that way.
Marc:It's like, who isn't funny and why?
Marc:Or why do you think something's not funny in an intellectual way?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You draw lines.
Guest:You know what always throws me with stuff is when people have an agenda to be something other than funny first.
Guest:Whether they want to be cool first or whether they want to be adorable first.
Guest:If that's in their head, that always throws me off and I can't get on board.
Guest:If somebody has...
Guest:yeah like if somebody wants to be cool i agree with that i can't handle i it means that they want to be funny second and there's plenty of people who have been cool who wanted to be funny first right i mean it's like like mitch hedberg was cool right but he clearly right was working on being funny first yeah i don't think he was uh yeah maybe he was trying to be cool but i knew him in periods where you know his his clothing choices were not cool like i knew him when he had one name and always wore a headband so it took a while
Marc:when it was just Mitch and he had to wear a bandana.
Marc:I know what you're saying.
Marc:But he was doing the work.
Marc:Sure, absolutely.
Marc:And the adorable thing, very important.
Marc:I mean, that's actually a good... I can't get past that at all.
Marc:I would not have even thought about it that way.
Marc:But now that I think about it, there are people that are considered highly funny by a lot of people who I cannot get past the pandering adorable thing.
Marc:I don't give a fuck how smart he is.
Marc:I'm not going to mention it.
Guest:And I mean, but it's like...
Guest:Like, Zach is adorable and cuddly and everybody likes Zach and everybody thinks Aziz is cuddly and adorable.
Guest:But they're doing the work on the things, you know?
Guest:Like, they're not worried about...
Guest:kind of having you know playing to sometimes guys play to they want like a female fan base or they want like a college fan base like they're playing and it's just like you should just do your thing to just do your thing and wherever who shows up shows up yeah well how they if you're that calculating you're not doing your thing exactly but i guess then the next question is
Marc:Like, because I went and saw a play last night, and I don't go see plays that often.
Marc:Tim Robbins, you know, I don't want to drop names, but he invited me to a show.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You know, because I know him from the Air America days, and it's a show he wrote.
Marc:And, you know, I go, and I see him there, you know, and, of course, I'm like, you know, you should come on my show.
Marc:And he's like, oh, I can't.
Marc:I'm not going to talk about divorce and shit.
Marc:I heard about it.
Marc:What, do you just bleed on there?
Marc:And I had this weird moment, because I knew I was going to be talking to you, too, and I'm thinking...
Marc:while I'm in the play, like, you know, like, cause I'm hitting, like, I might be hitting a wall like you were hitting that.
Marc:Like, you know, how much of this real life emotional psycho, like, you know, look at my struggles, we're all in pain.
Marc:What kind of, what was your dad like that at some point, you know, people create things.
Marc:And I'm looking at this play, and I mean, there's 20 people up there, and it's spectacular.
Marc:Movement, puppetry, dancing, singing, different languages, a narrative.
Marc:And my art is like me going, oh, my dad's manic, depressive.
Marc:It's just that...
Marc:At what point do I, or do you, like, I think that is my comedy.
Marc:But I can't escape it.
Marc:But it seems to me like people like Tim and Eric, certainly people like Zach, and certainly people like some of the people that you like, you know, do this other thing.
Marc:They're not up there bleeding for laughs.
Marc:You know, they're up there making things.
Marc:And that's a big difference.
Marc:And I think that's what I was thinking in terms of seeing the difference between you and I. Like, I like comedians where I can feel their heart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And I think that sometimes I can't always feel the heart of comics, even though they're funny and I can appreciate them.
Marc:But there's something to be said for that.
Marc:Not all comedy has to be a life or death thing that reveals the human experience.
Guest:I think when people do it right, no matter who they are, whether it's Tim and Eric doing it or it's you doing it, it's like...
Guest:You show the heart, but maybe they don't have to reach through anything to touch your heart.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You literally are opening a panel in your chest.
Guest:It's like, reach in and you can touch my heart.
Guest:And like other people, it's like you have to maybe feel through a couple layers of things because they're refracting what they do.
Guest:But as long as the heart's there, it can be like Tim and Eric, I think, have a lot of heart, but I think it's just underneath.
Guest:their aesthetic right the hearts what makes their thing succeed against every other you know there's i mean there's people who try to do what they do and it's just they're just crummy internet videos right i think that's right i think that's right that that from the the drive to express and the drive and the vision of it yeah you know if it's a real if it's a true vision then you're going to feel those people and there's no reason for tim and eric to stop what they're doing and go
Marc:yeah, you know, I went to school and, you know, they might want to protect that.
Marc:Whereas I see that, I don't know, I guess there's something about, like, if I'm ever hard on myself about anything, it's about this transparency that I seem to want to indulge.
Marc:But then you're not left with a lot.
Marc:That you can't be totally transparent and go, look, now I'm making pottery.
Marc:You know?
Marc:But you know what went into it, because you know me.
Marc:So this pot's deep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think everybody admires what you're doing.
Guest:It's like everybody wants to have written a book, but nobody wants to write a book.
Guest:It's like everybody admires that you're just like, here's everything.
Guest:It's all in.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Like you're just sliding.
Guest:You're all in every single player.
Guest:But then it's like,
Guest:they're like i don't want to do that though like i need to hold some of this back for myself why would you that's what i think i got hit with the other night or last night at the play well you're hoping that you win and then you get more chips and then you go okay so yeah so we follow through the metaphor yeah yeah okay that's good i can take your gambling yeah that's right so are you what are you doing out here anyways um you know
Guest:working on a tv show with paul f tompkins and oh yeah yeah so we're pft doing that yeah because that's my i mean my day job is i write for tv and stuff so i wrote on a show called monk for eight years tony schloob yeah yeah that was people like that show yeah we it was a job with eight years it's a smart show so so you're like that's what yeah that's my day job yeah and then what do you look at as the as the best show uh what do you look at that as
Guest:You know, I look at it as is, you know, especially when you work in TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like there's 200 people working on a TV show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, with the crew and the executives and actors and everything.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's like to have this thing that I can just do where I'm the only arbiter of everything with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think anybody who works on a TV show should find one thing that they have that's all theirs when they go home.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because otherwise, I don't know how you could deal with...
Guest:the amount of frustration that goes into working in a thing that is just like an assembly line.
Marc:You see your vision just part of a bigger vision and watch what your suggestion becomes sort of chipped away.
Guest:Well, you just have to share.
Guest:It's just like when you work in TV, you have to share.
Guest:It doesn't matter who you are in the process.
Marc:It makes you a better person, it sounds like.
Guest:Well, they put it that but it's frustrating.
Guest:There's a frustration that goes along with that sharing because it's not the It's not the distilled you know undistilled version of your thing and it's like if you have your thing That's just purely you you can go like yeah, there's that it's like then I can go back to this other thing and not feel like I'm I don't have anything like everything Yeah, so that is that part of the new excitement about to about the radio show that like you know this is actually mine and
Guest:I really felt that just letting go of everybody else's expectations for it, except mine, was a very important thing.
Guest:Because I was really... It felt like I would just go there with this backpack on every week.
Guest:Just like, this is everybody.
Guest:And I'm carrying everybody and everything in this thing.
Guest:And then just when I let go of that, it was like...
Guest:It was such a great feeling because now I just go there and I have fun doing it.
Marc:Well, that seems like a good place to end.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How do you feel about it?
Guest:Oh, I feel great.
Guest:This was so exciting because I've heard almost every episode.
Marc:Were you worried about whether we'd have a good conversation?
Marc:I knew we'd have a good conversation.
Marc:I think we had a great conversation.
Guest:This was a lot of fun.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I got some laughs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Got to know you better.
Guest:And I got to know you.
Guest:Well, I got to keep knowing you as well as I know you from where I have sat.
Guest:So did it seem like me?
Guest:Did I seem like myself?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like where Marc Maron is at in 2011.
Marc:And I'm just so happy that outside of all the past, whatever went on with this, I helped inspire you.
Marc:You helped.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You made me feel so bad in one night.
Guest:There's a reason I'm sitting here today.
Marc:But did you feel like it was directed at you?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It was.
Guest:It felt like you were the vessel for something that a higher power was saying.
Guest:It's like the gods were saying to me, it's time and we're going to put it through this dude's mouth.
Guest:He's going to say, he's going to just let you know where you're at is a horrible, unfortunate place and you can't stay there.
Guest:He's going to make you feel bad.
Guest:And when an audience goes at that joke, they're laughing at me for being in the record store, for being in a music store.
Marc:I think that was the only time I may have been a prophet.
Guest:It was only for you, Tom.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You created me.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:I'm going to leave with that.
Guest:Okay, Dad.
Guest:Great talking to you.
Guest:Same here.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Okay, that's it.
Marc:I feel like I have a new friend in Tom Sharpling.
Marc:I thought that was a great conversation.
Marc:Again, check out that video he made.
Marc:The new pornographers move video.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:A lot of great comics in there.
Marc:Comic talent.
Marc:Is that how you say it?
Marc:So what else can I tell you?
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:I'll send you some stuff.
Marc:Buy some merch.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Help the cause.
Marc:Things are going okay.
Marc:Just getting by.
Marc:Always use the help.
Marc:Go to JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:PunchWineMagazine.com.
Marc:StandUpRecords.com.
Marc:I'm like a living link provider.
Marc:That's all I'm doing here is I'm providing you links right now.
Marc:Go to WTFPodShop.
Marc:Buy a premium episode.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I don't know what else to tell you.
Marc:I'm going to go listen to some best show.
Marc:Now that I have to fucking catch up on 10 years.
Marc:Alright.
Guest:Yeah, I'm done.