Episode 1482 - Jennette McCurdy
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:I got a cold, man.
Marc:I got a fucking cold.
Marc:It was weird because I was holding it off.
Marc:I swear to God, I was holding it off the entire time that I was in Portland.
Marc:Even when I was talking to you last from my hotel room in Portland, Oregon, I felt the nag of it.
Marc:I felt the nag of it.
Marc:Starting like Thursday.
Marc:You know, people have this, it always annoys me when you're like, I got a cold.
Marc:They're like, oh, you'll be okay tomorrow.
Marc:It's like, no, when I get a cold, I get a fucking cold.
Marc:Like it's three or four days coming, then three or four days in me.
Marc:Kind of like, you know, I'm fucked up and then a few days on the way out.
Marc:So it's at least a 10 day ride.
Marc:And I don't know why it annoys me.
Marc:I, you know, I think that people get colds differently than me or maybe their tolerance is different than me or they get the different cold than me.
Marc:But when I get one and it locks in, I'm in for the arc of it.
Marc:And I'm in it right now.
Marc:And you kind of just hope it doesn't get worse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so today on the show, Jeanette McCurdy is here.
Marc:She's a former actor from, you know, you knew her.
Marc:She was on two popular Nickelodeon kids series, iCarly and Sam and Cat.
Marc:Last year, she released her memoir, which explained why she stopped acting.
Marc:It's called I'm Glad My Mom Died.
Marc:I read it, and I don't always do that for guests, you know, because sometimes I just rather talk.
Marc:than sort of be led into something by knowing their story too well.
Marc:But I wanted to get a sense of this woman because I was too old for iCarly.
Marc:I was too old for Sam and Cat.
Marc:And I read this book and I could not stop reading it.
Marc:It's a heavy book, but rarely have I seen the heaviness countered so nicely with comedy.
Marc:I mean, this book is about a horrendously dysfunctional family.
Marc:It's a horrendous, and it's not the standard fair dysfunction.
Marc:And it's a horrendously fraught and traumatic,
Marc:mother-daughter relationship, and then throw show business into that.
Marc:I found it completely compelling to the point where I was like, oh my God.
Marc:It was kind of relentless.
Marc:But she does come out the other side.
Marc:She did come on this show.
Marc:And she is kind of, I believe she's got a...
Marc:A podcast that launches this week.
Marc:It's called Hard Feelings with Jeanette McCurdy.
Marc:You can get that wherever you get podcasts.
Marc:But I'll tell you honestly, and a lot of you guys know this, eating disorders, food issues, body dysmorphia.
Marc:I connect with it.
Marc:Most of you who have listened to this show for years know this about me.
Marc:I am a man.
Marc:with fairly profound eating, food issues, body issues.
Marc:I was made that way by my mother.
Marc:She invented it.
Marc:I believe to this day that these are the deepest, most difficult issues to really conquer or get into a place where I can handle them.
Marc:they do guide or inform or at least annoy me every day of my waking life because I had a mother who was consumed by the idea of
Marc:The perfect body or maintaining a weight or being on a diet.
Marc:There have been different points in my life where my mother said, I don't think I could have loved you if you were fat.
Marc:But the point was, I'd been through periods of my life where when I wanted to impress my mother, I'd get emaciated.
Marc:But the symptoms of it now is that and I'm 60 years old.
Marc:And I've gone to I've had some therapy around this.
Marc:You know, I've gone to certain food programs.
Marc:But, you know, you're not that welcome.
Marc:Well, you are, but you feel bad when you go to Weight Watchers if you're only like three pounds overweight.
Marc:But for me, it was all, I guess, about control.
Marc:But I guess I guess it's about sort of sadly about, you know, comfort in my own fucking body.
Marc:I mean, I, you know, somehow or another, I managed to not get obsessed with the scale anymore over time.
Marc:But there's not a day that goes by where I don't experience food shame or compulsive eating because of aggravation or anger or feelings or just the joy of shoving shit into my mouth.
Marc:A day doesn't go by where I don't feel bad for eating something.
Marc:A day doesn't go by where I don't feel uncomfortable in my body.
Marc:Now I've become sort of compulsive about exercise.
Marc:So like even today, I had lunch, I had some vegetarian dumplings and a mound of greens.
Marc:But because of the sickness, I've been able to exercise in a few days and I'm like, you know, I'm crawling out of my skin.
Marc:The other manifestations of this are not being able to sort of be intimate or be touched by other people.
Marc:Like if somebody is holding me, like even Kit, like if she's got her hand on my stomach or on my side, like I want to crawl out of my fucking skin.
Marc:And I've learned to just sit in it and sit with it, but it's still pretty awful because eventually you get embarrassed about these things.
Marc:And I imagine some of you are listening to this and you're thinking, well, maybe you should get help for this.
Marc:You know, look, I've gotten help for this.
Marc:But also, all I can do is self-talk and live with it and understand that I'm not defined by whatever I think my weight is implying or whatever I think my body looks like.
Marc:But it's a hard sell to my brain for that.
Marc:If I feel overweight or I am overweight, man, I might as well be invisible.
Marc:I might as well be a fucking ghost in my mind.
Marc:It's fucking crazy.
Marc:And look, I can fake it until I make it, but I don't know if I'm making it.
Marc:So needless to say, Jeanette and I entered this conversation running.
Marc:Like, I didn't find it necessary to go through her whole story because I had read it, but I did find it, you know, engaging to talk about the issues we shared.
Marc:And I think, you know, there's no need to give context to this.
Marc:You know, I refer to her grandmother.
Marc:I refer to her mother.
Marc:I refer to her father.
Marc:I refer to different parts of the book.
Marc:But I do suggest, especially if this issue, even if it isn't, is something that resonates with you to read about this struggle.
Marc:Because she does it very, in a funny way, but it's very deep and very dark.
Marc:But it was heavy for me.
Marc:So look, folks, I'm in Boston at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on Saturday, November 4th.
Marc:Denver, Colorado.
Marc:I'll be at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th.
Marc:And Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on December 1st, 13th and 28th.
Marc:I'm at the Elysian on December 6th, 15th and 22nd.
Marc:And Largo, again, on December 12th and January 9th.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets.
Marc:Oh, before we move into the conversation, it is interesting what people respond to when I talk.
Marc:Like, for instance...
Marc:I've gotten annoyed when I hear people, you know, kind of make dismissive comments, you know, about people who wear masks outdoors or in public or whatever, even now.
Marc:And I just talked about it as a reality.
Marc:And it's like you don't judge people for wearing certain jackets or shoes or even, you know, certain good luck charms, even if that makes them feel safer or better.
Marc:Who gives a shit if people wear a mask?
Marc:Just let people be.
Marc:Just let people be.
Marc:Not everything is some loaded culture war shit show.
Marc:Doesn't fucking matter.
Marc:If it doesn't affect you, shut up.
Marc:And most of it doesn't affect the people that blather on and bully and start shit and judge and diminish people.
Marc:Just shut up.
Marc:It's got nothing to do with you.
Marc:Let people be.
Marc:And that was sort of my premise.
Marc:But then, you know, I got some interesting emails like this one from Daniel.
Marc:If you don't mind some clarification, though, wearing a mask in 2023 isn't just about feeling safe or protected as a heart transplant recipient since 2018.
Marc:I will have to continue my regimen of immunosuppressants to prevent rejection every day for the rest of my life.
Marc:So with COVID still in existence and quite contagious these days, it's a physical necessity for me and many others like me.
Marc:People who have gone through chemo, for example, may be more susceptible to disease and illness than the general population.
Marc:And if we get COVID, thankfully, I still haven't.
Marc:do a lot more damage than your average cold or flu.
Marc:Thanks for sticking up for us, though, against the bullies and assholes.
Marc:I just wanted to get the word out that, for some of us, masks are still a pain in the ass necessity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How about a little empathy?
Marc:Leave people alone.
Marc:Let them be.
Marc:Here's another one from Don.
Marc:Quick note that sometimes people need to wear a face mask due to illness.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I say this from experience.
Marc:I got hit with leukemia this year.
Marc:I'm much better after chemo, but at times my blood number for immunity measurement gets too low.
Marc:Among the things I need to do until the number recovers is wear a face mask.
Marc:My body can't fight many infections when immunity is low.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And here's a letter that always this this position on it.
Marc:Now it's the land of social responsibility and it's your choice.
Marc:But this position on it is something that dumb shits never even think of.
Marc:This is from A.E.
Marc:Andrew.
Marc:my brain knows it's a terrible air pollution better than the old days, but still.
Marc:So I've started wearing a mask outside waiting for the bus to protect myself from particulate matter that comes from air pollution.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Let that guy be, let him be.
Marc:And then there was another, another one that said, uh, in, in Asia, most of it is out of respect for other people.
Marc:If you have a fucking cold, like I do, and I wore a mask on the airplane, uh,
Marc:God forbid you think of others, right?
Marc:Even now, no mandates, no expectation.
Marc:Let people be.
Marc:Hey, why do you cover your mouth when you cough?
Marc:Let them be.
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:All right, so listen.
Marc:Jeanette McCurdy is here.
Marc:The nationwide bestseller, I'm Glad My Mom Died, is available everywhere.
Marc:And I loved it.
Marc:I read it before I talked to her.
Marc:She just launched her new podcast this week.
Marc:It's called Hard Feelings with Jeanette McCurdy.
Marc:And you can get it wherever you get podcasts.
Marc:And this is me.
Marc:It was intense.
Marc:This is intense.
Marc:This is raw stuff you're about to hear.
Marc:Me and Jeanette McCurdy.
Marc:It's different with everybody.
Marc:Usually I have to kind of, it seems to, like I noticed it happened in the shower for some reason.
Marc:Like the day of, I'm just like in the shower thinking like, how's this going to start?
Marc:Because for me, the way I do it, it's usually, how do I start?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:You know, why, what have you been doing?
Guest:I don't think at all.
Guest:I really try to not think.
Guest:I think in thinking and sort of outlining serves me in some areas, but really not for what I'm trying to do with my podcast.
Marc:What's it called again?
Guest:Hard feelings.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's very much I'll literally be feeling something very intense.
Guest:I'm an intense feeler, and then I'll just go and start recording.
Guest:And with the thought behind it being I'll probably scrap...
Guest:I've already recorded 15.
Guest:I imagine I'll scrap at least half of them.
Marc:So what's the structure?
Marc:Is it just you?
Guest:It's just me.
Guest:It's just me.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I had a podcast for a while where I interviewed guests, and I found it brought out a really kind of an outdated people-pleaser side of me and wanting to really—
Guest:I wouldn't ask the hard questions that I was even wanting to ask because I didn't want to offend and I wanted to tiptoe.
Guest:So it was just not, I think, a fit.
Guest:I wasn't good at it.
Guest:And so I scrapped that one after a while.
Guest:And then this kind of feels more suited to what my strengths are and what I feel like I have to offer.
Marc:Do you go from like day to day, like, you know, this week or today I was feeling this?
Marc:Or is it all sort of relative to the arc of your story?
Marc:How does it work?
Guest:Yeah, it's all very in the moment.
Guest:So one week I recorded five because it was just a week where I was having a lot of emotions coming up about various things.
Guest:And this past week I didn't record any.
Guest:I recorded nothing.
Guest:I've been trying to just kind of relax and there was nothing that I felt inspired to go record.
Marc:Well, what's the plan?
Marc:Once a week or how are you going to do it?
Guest:Once a week.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Once a week.
Guest:And yeah, I wanted to have a few backlogged off the top.
Marc:Well, like for you, the research I had to do, because I'm too old for iCarly.
Marc:Thank God.
Guest:I'm so glad.
Marc:So I missed that whole part of your life.
Marc:The bulk of the sort of professional problem.
Marc:But I did read the whole book.
Guest:Did you really?
Marc:I did, yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Guest:I definitely have done a lot of interviews where people have not read the book.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I read the whole book because I am definitely on the eating disorder spectrum.
Marc:I have that.
Guest:No kidding?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it now or in the past?
Marc:Always.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Once it is, it is, right?
Guest:How is it coming up for you?
Marc:Well, I was brought up by an anorexic mother who, not unlike you, but unlike you in a lot of ways, her job was maintaining this weight of 119 pounds.
Marc:She has said things to me like,
Marc:Recently, you know, in terms of looking back on things, she has said things like, you know, I don't think I could have loved you if you were fat.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:You know, she was calorie counting, had me calorie counting, like, very young.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was sort of the way I knew I could—
Marc:You know, try to get approval from her.
Marc:So I know that that part of what you're talking about.
Marc:And some of this stuff in your book was, you know, very relevant to me in some of the behavior I still have around body image stuff.
Guest:Do you count calories?
Marc:I've gone in and out of it.
Marc:There have been different manifestations of it because I've never really been fat.
Marc:But when I went off to college my freshman year, I just starved myself and got down to 165 pounds for me.
Marc:So I was emaciated.
Marc:I really thought that my mother would be proud of me.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:I don't think it registered that way.
Marc:She probably said you're too skinny.
Marc:You know how that goes.
Marc:You can't win.
Guest:Yeah, that's definitely what my grandma couldn't win.
Guest:She was always commenting one way or the other.
Guest:Too chunky, too thin, not eating enough.
Guest:Well, slow down there.
Guest:But with my mom, it was always very much, it felt like there was never thin enough.
Guest:It was always just as thin as I could possibly.
Guest:If people were concerned for me, she seemed thrilled.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Does that mean you look good to her?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know the scale thing I related to.
Marc:I've gotten away from the scale.
Marc:I definitely have a weight where if I go beyond it, I completely seems to diminish my sense of self.
Guest:Do you still have a scale?
Guest:You don't?
Marc:I do, but I don't do it much.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Like the last time I did it, I'm like, holy shit, that's not bad.
Marc:But I hadn't been doing it in any regular way.
Marc:I got out of that.
Guest:Why have the scale?
Marc:To check in sometimes.
Okay.
Marc:But not daily.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, progress, not perfection, right?
Marc:There you go.
Marc:I mean, because I've been vegan for eight months.
Marc:Eight months.
Marc:And I'm pretty compulsive with the exercise and stuff.
Marc:But look, I've done Weight Watchers when I was barely heavy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That just became some sort of functioning anorexic nightmare because, you know, you've got these points and your whole day becomes about figuring out which, you know, zero to one point stuff you can eat.
Marc:And it's just eating that all day.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I did the Nutrisystem, which is, I think, just like a kind of a cheaper, like the poor man's Weight Watchers.
Marc:I guess.
Guest:It's not as like...
Guest:But I remember having a cinnamon roll that just tasted like absolute cardboard.
Guest:It was so awful.
Guest:But just feeling like, oh, I can pretend this is a cinnamon roll and trying to convince myself that it was better than it was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's awful.
Marc:Yeah, but I am not beyond food shame at all.
Guest:Hmm.
Marc:You know, it's not – you know, I just had some leftover pasta and I'm like – as soon as I eat almost anything, I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Did I just do?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It honestly feels – I feel past it and I feel like I'm going to regret this someday if it like, you know, comes back.
Guest:But I feel like I don't –
Guest:I couldn't even tell you what I had for dinner last night.
Guest:Oh, I went out to eat with a friend, and I had Italian food, and it was three different kinds of pasta and bread.
Guest:I don't think about food at all anymore.
Guest:I truly don't.
Guest:I love food.
Guest:I'll eat anything whenever.
Guest:I do happen to be very thin.
Guest:So if at some point my body shifted a lot because of it, I wonder how that would impact things.
Guest:But I really don't feel like that's not anything that I'm currently struggling with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I feel like that's what people always say with eating disorders.
Guest:Like, oh, it's always with you.
Guest:It always haunts you.
Guest:It always is going to be part of your life.
Guest:And I definitely don't feel that way.
Marc:Oh, I do.
Marc:I mean, I'm sober a long time.
Marc:But when it comes down to sort of core issues that I have to live with without any – be aware of, the food stuff is definitely the deepest.
Yeah.
Guest:What is the shame – is there body shame?
Guest:You said body dysmorphia?
Marc:Yeah, I have body dysmorphia, yeah.
Guest:Anything you care to talk about?
Marc:Like what is the – what are the things that are the biggest – I just think like if I feel – you talk about it in the book a bit that your body feels – if you feel –
Marc:chunky, you're going to look at yourself as chunky.
Marc:And the thing is, the other point you made in the book, it's like no one else is thinking about that.
Marc:So you go into the world just feeling like a monster.
Marc:And no one gives a fuck.
Marc:No one's looking at you like that.
Marc:But I know that my mother is the first thing she looks at.
Marc:And she used to pinch my sides.
Marc:But my issues are, the things I share with you
Marc:are small in comparison to the spectrum of sort of what you had to deal with.
Marc:But that kind of basing somebody's...
Marc:You know, your love for them or your acceptance of them or what it implies about yourself in relation to their weight.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And it happens at a young age.
Marc:It's a nightmare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, as I said, too, that I don't feel it anymore.
Guest:I don't feel it with my body.
Guest:I still feel very insecure about my skin, the skin on my face.
Guest:I'm 31.
Guest:I still break out.
Guest:I've tried so many dermatologists.
Guest:I've tried so many...
Guest:facialists I've tried every oral topical medicine there is and as you just said that it made me think oh I do remember my mom being very very particular about skin very ridiculing if there was any blemish for me and my brothers yeah and now I'm just tracing that also back to her just now yeah yeah the skin yeah breakthrough yeah
Guest:Seriously, it's like it's it's really been it's it's been weighing on my skin.
Guest:And I think, well, I don't why do I care?
Guest:Why can I just not like nobody's going, oh, my God, let me count your blemishes.
Guest:But I am.
Marc:The woman I'm seeing is sort of a Midwestern person who doesn't give a fuck about food or her weight.
Marc:Great.
Marc:And it's like it's hard because I'm like crazy.
Marc:And it's a really not, I think I learned from it and it's not, I'm not trying to control her, but you do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you're sort of like, so what, because what I got a lot from my mother when it was at its most subtle was, do you really need dessert?
Marc:No, I don't need anything.
Marc:But it's just like that feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But she, she kind of roots it all in the fact that she was kind of obese as a kid.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:And that's what she kind of puts it on.
Marc:I mean, she used to put a diet, half a diet pill in my lunch bag when I was in junior high.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah, that kind of stuff.
Guest:Jeez.
Marc:Just trying to help.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just trying to help.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:And chunky is such a great word.
Marc:I don't hear it much anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not around.
Marc:No, it isn't.
Guest:We could use it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chunky.
Marc:Chunky is a good one.
Marc:That's like definitely that generation.
Marc:My mom's generation was chunky.
Marc:But this book, man, I mean, I, you know, I'm reading it and it's harrowing and it's awful.
Marc:But, you know, the humor is all the way through it.
Marc:But it's interesting that there are some things that are just in the background that are in and of themselves horrendous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just the fact that you guys had to sleep on the floor to accommodate your mother's hoarding is crazy.
Marc:It's like a whole other book.
Marc:When you're afraid of opening the garage and then sort of the reasoning behind your mother's hoarding that you talk about these broken mugs and then you're able to sort of at some point later in the book have a callback because she breaks one and bags it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To remember the moment.
Marc:I mean, the depth of your mother's mental illness was so profound, yet she was so functional.
Guest:Yeah, it's puzzling in retrospect.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:I think about this a lot where I imagine in so many settings people referred to my mom as like, oh, the crazy one, the crazy lady.
Guest:And just obviously I didn't know that as a kid.
Guest:So me having my mom on a pedestal going, oh, my God, I love her.
Guest:She's the best.
Guest:And now, you know, now as an adult going, she was the crazy one.
Guest:She was the one everyone spoke about as being nutso or cuckoo or crazy.
Guest:She was that person.
Guest:You know, it's wild.
Guest:Also, she was very unintentionally funny.
Guest:Her cadence and her rhythm was hilarious.
Guest:Even when she could be just saying abusive or offensive things to me or anyone around her, she was still...
Guest:Funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Marc:But also, like, you know, all throughout the book, there's moments where, you know, towards the end when you're sort of waiting for some relief, then there's a whole other curveball that, you know, about your dad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, you know, towards the very end, you know, there's a little bit of upswing.
Marc:But, I mean, I finished a book and my first thought was like, well, is she okay now?
Yeah.
Marc:Is she going to be okay?
Marc:It wasn't like, glad that she got this out of her system.
Guest:God, I don't know what I expected people's takeaway to be or if I even really considered that.
Guest:But I...
Guest:I feel very okay.
Guest:I feel very good.
Guest:I feel partially informed, to be honest, by the success of the book.
Guest:I've been thinking about success and how that relates to self-worth a lot recently.
Guest:And I wonder, would my self-worth be where it is where I'm like, oh, I'm feeling good.
Guest:I'm feeling great.
Guest:If the book had just tanked, where would I be today?
Guest:But because of its success, or at least partially because of its success, I feel very good.
Marc:Well, probably less alone because like somebody like my girlfriend and her sister, you know, her mom, like it's very helpful to people that have narcissistic or mentally ill parents that have wired them in such a way that, you know, you're lucky to survive it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Emotionally, mentally, even physically.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, I think there's a lot of abuse.
Guest:Or I guess I had often seen abuse kind of depicted one way where it's like an alcoholic father.
Guest:He throws the bottle and the mom's crying and then she shelters the kids.
Guest:And I think abuse can look – I know abuse can look very different from that.
Guest:And it was very covert and difficult to explore in therapy and unpack and understand.
Marc:Because it's a lifetime of a pattern.
Guest:Yes, yes, yeah.
Marc:It was, you know, it was like how you were brought up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it wasn't physical and, you know, you couldn't point to alcoholism.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or sexual abuse, you know, exactly.
Marc:But there was definitely, you know, boundaryless physical engagement.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:With the showers and the stuff you talk about in the book.
Marc:in terms of examinations and whatever the hell she was up to.
Marc:But I think one of the benefits of writing something this honest, but also balancing it with humor enough, is that there's a lot of people that deal with this, even me.
Marc:I mean, I could totally resonate with the day you threw away your scale.
Marc:I mean, I get it.
Marc:I get that part of it.
Marc:And I also get the part of dealing with parents who are pathologically self-centered.
Marc:The thing that I think most people don't get and I think is the centerpiece is that, you know, you clearly can identify how you became an extension of your mother's expectations and also dreams that she couldn't realize.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:By becoming this star of a show.
Marc:So that's a little different.
Marc:But I think everybody who deals with somebody like that emotionally has some part of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's definitely the element that I hear – that I'm approached about most often is, oh, I have a parent.
Guest:I thank you for saying what I couldn't.
Guest:This is something I relate with so much.
Guest:Or how do I set a boundary with a parent?
Guest:It really seems –
Guest:I mean, it's hands down the thing that people approach me most about the book.
Marc:I mean, the benefit of my parents is that they were so selfish, they didn't, you know, wire me to give unconditional affection.
Marc:So there's a distance there.
Marc:Like, I don't look to them for parent stuff ever.
Marc:So I don't have that thing where I need them.
Marc:Like, usually I say they're just these people I grew up with that had problems.
Marc:But I didn't... You know, my codependency...
Marc:And another thing the book made me think about was that very young, before my recollection, I think my mother kind of treated me as a peer because my father was so absent.
Marc:But I'm talking like four or five where I don't have memories.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it goes in, right?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It stays.
Guest:It sticks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Are your parents both still living?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:How do you navigate?
Guest:How often do you see them?
Marc:Oh, I don't like that.
Marc:Look, I've sort of processed most of it, and I'm old enough and they're old enough to where I don't have active resentment.
Marc:And also because of my success, they don't really have that kind of passive-aggressive weapon, you know, where they're diminishing because I didn't live up to some expectation because I've transcended them both.
Marc:And now my dad's losing his mind, which is sort of a gift.
Marc:But in a way, it's all sort of humbling.
Marc:I think that whatever I went through and whatever my feelings were, I don't think I'm suppressing them as much as they've kind of dissipated with the humbling of age itself.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:I sometimes wonder about that.
Guest:How different my process would have been had my mom survived and where would our relationship be now?
Marc:It doesn't sound like you would have been able to get better.
Guest:Yeah, I don't think so.
Guest:Or I think if I had, I would just not speak to her.
Guest:I don't think there's a world in which she's in my world so strongly and I got better.
Guest:I don't think that was possible.
Marc:No, I had to fuck my dad off for like a couple of years.
Guest:You just know, no talking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just like, you know, we had like amazing fights, you know, and I kind of pushed him, you know, mentally to the wall.
Marc:And I saw that, you know, there wasn't much in there, but, you know, anger and, you know, like because narcissists, you know, they don't.
Marc:They're kind of incapable of self-reflection.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They can't do it.
Guest:They won't do it.
Guest:They refuse.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if you get them to the point where they have to, they'll just tell you to fuck off.
Guest:They flee.
Guest:Did you feel guilt after your decision or was it to the point where you were just so kind of ready to not talk to them anymore?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if I feel guilty.
Marc:I wrote a book that was pretty revealing about his manic depression and stuff.
Marc:But he was all pissed off.
Marc:And then I started hearing from his side of the family, like, we're all disappointed.
Marc:I'm like, I don't give a shit.
Marc:But I didn't.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:And I called him up.
Marc:And I'm like, well, what do you want, money?
Marc:And he's like, yeah, maybe.
Marc:And I'm like, well, how much are you thinking?
Marc:And he's like, $100,000.
Marc:I'm like, I'll give you $5,000.
Marc:Did he take it?
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I just sent it.
Marc:I mean, the check was cashed.
Marc:But look, I see him now and I check in with both of them and I'm in touch with him.
Guest:How did that happen?
Guest:So then you went from that to then seeing him.
Marc:How?
Marc:Oh, after those two years?
Marc:It was a long time ago.
Marc:But the truth is, is that I've always they've always been a little.
Marc:They were intimidated by me.
Marc:Like there was never a point past a certain age because of how I excelled in what I was interested in where they weren't kind of impressed with me.
Marc:Like I think what happens and I don't think it happened for you is that.
Marc:When you have these kind of parents, like you are unable to sort they don't release you to to develop a sense of self.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And so you're kind of stuck with this.
Marc:So I that happened to me and I was kind of nebulous.
Marc:But, you know, they didn't step in to use me for long enough.
Marc:And I eventually got enough, you know, go fuck yourself in me to to sort of like slowly over decades kind of land on some sort of sense of self.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:I feel like family and loyalty to family is such a problem.
Guest:I love that you're mentioning this.
Guest:It's just something I've been thinking about a lot recently with family and boundaries and how much to give when you feel like, oh, God, I'm just giving endlessly and they're just taking and I'm not getting anything in return.
Guest:I'll get off the phone call with them and sob.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like it's such an empty.
Guest:There's no real connection here.
Guest:But I guess I should keep staying in touch with them because they're my family.
Guest:Like these questions are ones that I've been thinking about a lot with various family members.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Well, you're in a different position.
Marc:Like, you know, like now.
Marc:Look, I don't have that same loyalty.
Marc:I just don't have it.
Guest:I think that is so great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I don't have kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And me and my brother are kind of screwed up the same way with boundaries and low self-esteem and eating disorders and trouble with intimacy.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And you get old and things get a little easier.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Towards the end of the book, when you start, you know, after your mother dies and you've got to deal with your grandmother, I'm like, well, where's that book?
Marc:Because that's the source of the problem.
Guest:You know what's funny?
Guest:I'm glad we're going here.
Guest:I don't have contact with my grandma.
Guest:She's alive.
Guest:She's alive now.
Guest:She's in a retirement home in Kentucky.
Guest:And I think I mentioned in the book that I blocked her from my phone.
Guest:I have not unblocked her since then.
Guest:I don't talk to her.
Guest:I avoid any family gathering where she is.
Guest:I can't do it.
Guest:I've tried countless times to have a real conversation with her, to get anywhere real.
Guest:She can't do it.
Guest:And it's exhausting for me to try to pull something out of somebody that they're not capable of giving.
Guest:So I eventually just said, OK, I'm not going anywhere near that.
Guest:She has a tumor like she's going to die soon.
Guest:And that's OK for me.
Guest:You know, I don't that does not change a part of my heart.
Guest:Her heartstrings kind of got tugged when she got the tumor.
Guest:OK, maybe I should go.
Guest:Maybe I should go visit her.
Guest:Maybe I should.
Guest:No, I know that road.
Guest:I know that path.
Guest:I know what that's led to.
Guest:I know the deep.
Guest:confusion that it leaves me with and the frustration and the resentment and the pain and the anger.
Guest:And so I choose to not have contact with her.
Guest:And I think it's the best decision in my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, she made the monster.
Guest:She did.
Guest:She a hundred percent did.
Guest:And, and, and,
Marc:And like, you know, I saw that.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God, how is this just happening at the end of the book and she's not going to go into this?
Marc:This is the source of the problem, this thing.
Marc:What?
Marc:I think.
Marc:What?
Guest:It's just so just thinking of her little because she's so cute.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But she's so maniacal.
Guest:She's like four nine.
Guest:And she has just really like a little poofy permed hair.
Guest:And she's got like a button nose.
Guest:She's precious little tiny feet.
Guest:But she's just chaos.
Guest:Like everywhere she goes, it's chaos.
Guest:It's hysterical.
Guest:Like always everything's dramatic and heightened and nothing's ever good enough.
Guest:And she's a histrionic, exhausting person.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I think that, like, as people listen to this, you know, to not to sort of frame it properly in that, you know, I think to some people this sort of sounds insensitive when you talk about family like this.
Marc:But the truth is that if you're wired to surrender your sense of self to accommodate these people that are so pathologically needy and in that neediness, it's abusive.
Right.
Marc:That, you know, you're left with no choice but to either sacrifice yourself in whatever that means or find the space for yourself to exist and hold hard boundaries.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you for framing it that way.
Guest:I feel like there's such a difference between difficult, annoying, pesky family, which we all know.
Marc:And mentally ill people.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That are destructive.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And hurtful.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that that differentiation is not made enough because a lot of people just feel like they just get sucked into it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you just see themselves.
Marc:They've completely...
Marc:Either are crippled emotionally or mentally ill themselves or, you know, it's very hard to maintain those boundaries, but it's important for your own sanity and to also stop the, you know, passing it down.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:I saw that struggle in my brother who actually lived with my grandma after our mom died.
Guest:He lived with my grandma and grandpa.
Guest:My grandpa died a couple years ago.
Guest:And my grandma and he were just the two of them together constantly, very codependent, very unhealthy.
Guest:And I saw what it did to him.
Guest:I saw how it held him back.
Guest:I saw how agonizing it was for him.
Guest:And then when my grandma went to the retirement home...
Guest:He's like a new person.
Guest:It's like he's finally finding a sense of self.
Guest:And it's it's incredibly heartening and compelling to see.
Guest:It's like he's he's coming into his own.
Guest:Finally, he's 34 years old.
Guest:He's never had his own whatever.
Guest:You know, he's never had a sense of self because of the engulfing and meshing people around him.
Marc:Yeah, that that those sort of like borderline manipulative kind of I mean, though.
Marc:Right from the beginning of the book, I mean, we should talk about it.
Marc:I mean, what are your first memories of her, your mother?
Guest:Honestly, like, her being sick, her being in hospitals.
Marc:That's right, because she had the cancer early on.
Guest:Yeah, so she had it when I was two, and she was really in and out of hospitals.
Guest:It was stage four then, so they didn't think she was going to make it.
Guest:And chemotherapy, radiation, bone marrow transplant, mastectomy, everything.
Guest:And so I remember...
Guest:I'd say, you know, a very early memory was her giving me a 101 Dalmatians purse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But she had like fake clip-on bangs and then like a hospital mask because she was so – her immune system was so weakened.
Guest:She couldn't – you know, we all had to wear the hospital mask.
Guest:She had to wear the hospital mask.
Guest:And it just felt –
Guest:Life felt very serious.
Guest:Everything felt serious.
Guest:I, of course, didn't know what was going on.
Guest:I'm two.
Guest:But it felt that sterile feeling of a hospital.
Guest:It felt life and death.
Guest:Those are my earliest memories are, okay, this is serious.
Guest:This is bad.
Guest:This doesn't feel good.
Marc:So from that early age, you knew that she was in trouble, but she was your mother.
Marc:But I guess what you didn't know is that she would survive that and use that as the foundation for constantly draining everyone around them for sympathy, pity, in order to have control.
Marc:And on top of that, she had her own mental illness.
Guest:Yes, that's very well put.
Guest:That is exactly what happened.
Guest:And I, of course, did not realize that she was using her cancer.
Guest:She was exploiting her cancer for attention, for love, that she loved to be a martyr.
Guest:I didn't know any of these things, so I just thought, oh, poor mom, constantly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's only after plenty of time in therapy and life experiences that I've realized, oh, God, that was really gross, gnarly using of her cancer.
Marc:And when did you—like, when does it start to—like, the idea that she wanted you to be an actress?
Marc:I mean, which was obviously her dream, but it's a lot of people's dreams.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But you're out here, you know, right?
Marc:You're near L.A., and she sees it as a real possibility.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's really the story of—
Marc:What everybody kind of knows those stories of these mothers who are sort of, you know, pimping out their kids, you know, to to to try to not I don't think it was all about money for her at the beginning.
Marc:Was it do you feel?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:I think it was really her way of finding – I don't think she had a sense of self.
Guest:You know, I think she was looking to – looking desperately, frantically pawing, clawing for an identity, whether it was in cancer, in Mormonism, in her kids, me specifically or primarily.
Guest:And then I think with acting, it was – I think it was an attempt for her to feel success, for her to feel – I think she did see it as a way out.
Guest:I do think –
Guest:I think she would have said, I just want you to have a better life than I had.
Guest:But I think, you know, she wanted a better life than she had.
Marc:But they never moved out of the house.
I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I mean, that house is like, that's like a fucking nightmare.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:It was very bizarre because we were still in the house for the first, like, couple years of the show.
Guest:And it was getting quite, like, it got pretty big pretty fast.
Guest:iCarly did.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, iCarly.
Guest:And honestly, I have a hard time saying the name of the show.
Yeah.
Guest:I hated being on it so much and I find it so I just so I usually say that show.
Guest:But when I was when I was doing the show, it got pretty successful pretty quickly.
Guest:And so it'd be very weird to be I'd be leaving for work and to be recognized by people.
Guest:And it's like we live in this little shack, this little rundown.
Guest:You can't even have people over.
Guest:I can't have people over.
Marc:Yeah, because it's like you and your brothers are sleeping on mats on the floor because the bedrooms are too filled with garbage.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, organized garbage.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:She would have said organized garbage.
Guest:Anyone else would say otherwise.
Guest:But I mean, the kitchen, you 50 percent of the time you'd open a milk and it'd be just, you know, you can't shake it out.
Guest:It'd be so, so old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Worms in sacks of Bisquick, you know, just like just old everything all the time, even down to down to the kitchen.
Marc:But she saved everything.
Marc:It's a real everything.
Marc:A real hoarder.
Marc:She's like really had that thing.
Guest:Yeah, saved everything.
Guest:And then funny enough, she had a stack of books on OCD hoarding on how to like get over hoarding, which is telling.
Guest:But then she hoarded those.
Marc:And your dad's like sleeping under a box or something?
Guest:He's sleeping like in like the back bedroom.
Guest:There was like a sliver of bed.
Guest:So the bed had tons of shit on it.
Guest:There was just enough space literally for his body to kind of lay there.
Guest:And that's where he would go unless he was kicked out of the house, which also happened, I mean, multiple times a week.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Through paranoia and weird expectations.
Guest:Him getting home any amount late, smelling somewhat different than she would expect.
Guest:Everything had a big story.
Marc:But the weird thing is you really portray him, I guess accurately, as somebody who is fairly detached from the responsibilities of being a father.
Marc:But you read the book and I'm like, your mom must have had a real fucking, sorry, a real brain meld on everybody because why'd that guy hang around?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I don't understand that.
Guest:I've tried to ask him outright in any way, shape, and form I can.
Guest:I don't understand that.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:I actually don't speak with him either.
Guest:I have no communication with my dad or my grandma or, I mean, I guess who I thought was my dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I found out later after my mom died that he was not actually my dad.
Guest:And, yeah, he just seemed so detached.
Guest:I've said how – you know, she had this seven-year affair and three of four kids with a different man.
Guest:Like, how – why did you stay?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you guys were all born?
Marc:I mean, they were together when you were born?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I've met up with my actual biological father a few times, and he's tried to kind of give me some answers.
Guest:A timeline?
Guest:Some clarity.
Guest:But it seemed like he was maybe even unclear if I was his.
Guest:So I took a 23 in me to double check, and I am.
Guest:There are other relatives on his side who have taken it and him and everything.
Guest:So that's for sure.
Guest:Dustin Scottie and me are his children.
Marc:So did your mom tell the dad you grew up with that you were his?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It doesn't sound like she did.
Guest:These answers are all answers that I tried exhaustively to uncover years after she died, and I was not getting any closure at all.
Guest:It was more frustrating to chase because I was not getting answers.
Marc:I just think this book, you know, in terms of like addressing the spectrum of insidious emotional abuse and trauma is really what the book is about.
Marc:You know, by the time the dad part is revealed, you're kind of hoping that's where the turnaround is going to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Me, too.
Guest:I was, too, in real time.
Guest:I thought, well, nothing else can happen.
Marc:The worst has happened.
Marc:And then you're like, there's more?
Marc:And then your grandmother is all you got?
Marc:And she's a monster?
Marc:But...
Marc:But all that stuff, I feel like we should sort of tell the story a little bit in that because of your mother, basically what happened is that she took over your life.
Marc:And became one of those moms that ran you around auditions, became involved in how the business works, who your management was, but also fighting for you to get the opportunities you got and believing in you, I guess, to a certain degree, or was just going to run you into the ground.
Marc:But you delivered somehow, right?
Guest:I delivered...
Guest:I would say very well as a kid, especially considering the amount of pressure I was under.
Guest:No part of me enjoyed going on auditions.
Guest:No part of me was excited.
Guest:I was a nervous wreck.
Guest:I'd pee 15 times.
Guest:I'd write my name in on the sign-in sheet, and then I'd cross it out because I'd be so nervous.
Guest:I'd think I just need more time to prepare, more time to prepare.
Guest:So I'd cross it out, and then I'd rewrite my name at the bottom of the list over and over again.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And also, all that time spent running lines with your mother taking your mother's direction
Guest:Terrible direction, too.
Guest:Just god-awful.
Guest:It got to a point where I was hearing so often from casting directors to do it basically the opposite way that my mom had directed me to do it.
Guest:I'd say, okay, but I knew it would offend my mom if I didn't do it the way she wanted.
Guest:So I'd do it for her the way she wanted when I was practicing with her and then I'd go do it a different way for the casting directors thinking they probably want something different.
Guest:It felt like just constantly guessing who that I'm currently with, what do they want and how do I do the thing the way that they want it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like never ever asking what is the thing that I want and how would I do that.
Guest:That was not even on my radar in the slightest.
Yeah.
Marc:Because she had put this ambition in you.
Guest:Yeah, it was really I really believed that her needs and her wants came first.
Guest:I felt bad for her.
Guest:I felt sorry for her for the hard life she had.
Guest:I couldn't believe all that she'd gone through.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted her to have her dreams.
Guest:I wanted her to have what she wanted, whatever whatever that meant.
Guest:And I also believed that I was the best chance of that happening.
Guest:I felt like everybody else in the house was kind of clueless, like wouldn't really understand when her mood switched or why.
Guest:And I thought, well, I can read mom better than they can.
Guest:So I'll just do the gymnastics for everyone and be exactly who she wants me to be and do exactly what she wants me to do to avoid the fucking chaos of who she is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were aware of that very young.
Guest:Yeah, I felt... Instinctively, anyway.
Guest:Yeah, instinctively, I felt she was my responsibility.
Guest:I felt her needs were my responsibility and priority.
Guest:And I felt I believed that I had the best chance of delivering...
Marc:But what you didn't know at that time was the self-sacrifice involved.
Marc:No, I had no idea.
Marc:Which is an entire sense of who you were.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I had no idea that that's what I was giving up genuinely until after she died.
Guest:I had no clue.
Marc:The other great thing that I loved in the book was the—because you guys were Mormons, but not all in, it seemed—
Guest:Not all in.
Guest:We're half-hearted Mormons.
Marc:But what's it called in the Mormon religion where the angel talks to you or God talks to you?
Guest:The Holy Ghost.
Marc:So the Holy Ghost was talking to you?
Guest:The Holy Ghost is a thing that you are told you're given when you're eight years old.
Guest:Your eighth birthday, you're baptized, and you get the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Guest:So one day you can't hear the Holy Ghost, the next day you can.
Marc:And I like that the Holy Ghost was really just your OCD.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that it was...
Guest:Touch doorknobs 15 times, twirl around, repeat lines a certain way a certain amount of times.
Guest:Just very ritualistic behavior.
Guest:And I really believe that was all he goes.
Guest:But I thought, he's helping me out.
Guest:This guy's cool.
Guest:He's telling me exactly what I need.
Guest:I'm going to book the part.
Guest:If I do this many things, I'm going to book the part and my family will be happy.
Marc:But the family did get concerned at some point.
Marc:One of them did.
Guest:My grandpa did.
Guest:My grandpa did.
Marc:He saw you out in the yard.
Guest:Yeah, I was doing some of my rituals and he approached my mom about it and said like, look, I think something's going on here that we might need to look into.
Guest:I think Jeanette, there might be something wrong with her.
Guest:My mom's like, there's nothing wrong with Jeanette.
Guest:My baby, my angel baby, there's nothing wrong with her.
Guest:She could never, would refuse to see anything wrong with me or herself.
Guest:Everybody else there could be problems with, but with her or me, no problems to be had.
Marc:So you were her hope.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And she protected you from judgment, but also insulated you from help.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Man.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But that was, I thought, a pretty funny device, even though it was rooted in horrific reality.
Guest:I do think so.
Marc:Well, I mean, I guess everybody who hears voices thinks they're trying to help initially.
Guest:You'd have to, right?
Yeah.
Marc:It's a gift.
Marc:How can this not be a gift?
Guest:Some guidance, finally.
Guest:That's what I've been looking for.
Marc:But ultimately, when did you really start, outside of doing this balancing act and not having a real sense of self, but knowing enough to know that whatever your mom was telling you to do was not quite correct because you learned that you could placate her and then still do what she expected you to do.
Marc:But when did you know as a young person, not as somebody looking back, that there was real problems?
Guest:I would say I had a slight hunch that I tried to push down when a friend from dance's mom approached my mom about anorexia, which I didn't know what that was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A doctor had brought it up previously, and my mom had kind of said, oh, absolutely not.
Guest:She doesn't have this problem.
Guest:Meanwhile, she's counting my calories and portioning out my meals, and we're, like, teaming up together.
Guest:Oh, all that stuff.
Marc:The repetition of all this behavior throughout the book is just crazy, these moments where you're just sitting there eating, you know, steamed vegetables and your pals—
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It really felt – I felt like mom's looking out for me.
Guest:We're just – we're a team.
Guest:Like we're doing a hand jive.
Guest:Just thrilled that mom's helping me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I got some red flag of concern after the mom from dance had brought it up.
Guest:And then the real concern hit actually when I started getting recognized in public, when I started getting famous.
Guest:And my – to me, that felt like when my mom started to realize, oh, we're different.
Guest:Because now people are coming up to me.
Guest:They're not asking mom for pictures.
Guest:They're asking me for pictures.
Guest:And a part of her was really –
Guest:You know, she'd have me smile and pose and let's do three.
Guest:And why don't we do a silly face?
Guest:And why don't you be sure to sign autograph your autograph this certain way?
Guest:And she'd have me practice my autograph.
Guest:So part of her seems really enthralled and intrigued by the fame and ecstatic about it.
Guest:And a part of her seemed she could turn on a dime and snap and then be so mad at me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't know I was resentful of her at this point, but looking back, I know it was resentment, and it was like eating me up.
Guest:I was so confused at how mad I felt at my mom, but thinking, like, how can I be mad at her?
Guest:She's sacrificed so much, and, you know, she was sick.
Guest:So you're playing yourself.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, it was resentment brewing intensely.
Marc:So all that stuff about, like, you know, you couldn't dance at an audition, so she made you take all those dance classes.
Marc:It's just like it was exhausting, right?
Guest:Tell me about it.
Guest:I'm still exhausted.
Guest:Truly, I've really been thinking recently about relaxing and what does that mean and what does that look like?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Let me know how you do with that.
Guest:I will.
Guest:It's like, you know, with the...
Guest:I had this chip on my shoulder after the success of my past for feeling like, well, that wasn't a thing that I wanted.
Guest:And that was a thing mom wanted.
Guest:And I was ashamed of the show.
Guest:And it's so corny and so bad.
Guest:And I just fucking hated it.
Marc:And it went on forever.
Guest:It went on forever.
Guest:Like, end.
Guest:Jesus Christ.
Guest:It was so, I just.
Marc:What was your character's name?
Guest:Sam.
Guest:Sam Puckett.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She'd sling a butter sock and eat fried chicken.
Guest:Oh, her key, her trademark trait was that she loved eating, which was just so fun.
Marc:Did you have a lot of spit bags?
Guest:Yeah, they had spit buckets, but our producer loved to be like, no, we have to see you eat it in the take.
Guest:And I was like, I don't really understand why.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then I'd throw it up after during my bulimic years.
Yeah.
Guest:So there was the show and then there was the shame around the show and this chip on my shoulder of wanting to prove myself and prove – I wanted desperately to prove that I'm – honestly, that I'm talented, that I'm good, that I'm a good writer, that I'm funny.
Guest:I wanted to prove these things.
Guest:And then I feel like with the success of the book, I felt like, ah.
Guest:I did it, so I should be good, right?
Guest:I should be done proving myself and that demon should go away.
Guest:And it didn't and it hasn't and it's still like – I still feel the need to prove myself with the next thing, the next project, the next whatever it is.
Guest:And I'm trying to explore that more recently and challenge myself to relax and to not –
Guest:not have to prove myself anymore it's exhausting it's so exhausting it's i had to prove my prove my worth to my mom you know prove that i was worthy of love that i i had to earn i felt like i had to earn love and i know that's what's driving this now but even though i know that's what's driving it it's i'm not past it right well i mean but you know so i think somehow that could you could make that healthy
Guest:Tell me how.
Marc:Well, I mean, you know, if there's things you want to do, you can view them as that as opposed to proving yourself.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, I like that.
Marc:I mean, you know, if there are things that you haven't done yet, I mean, I think the idea of proving yourself, if that's the drive, then it's very easy to fall back into that pattern of being hard on yourself if you're not doing it.
Guest:Yep, totally.
Marc:So it seems to me that if you want to do something, that you have the freedom to try it in a relative vacuum and see how it goes as opposed to thinking you have to succeed.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's nice.
Marc:And that's all the time we have.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:But think about that until next week and we'll talk about it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Perfect.
Marc:So this – like I wish I knew the scope of the show because, you know, there's all these great bits about the billboards and about the fake smile that your mom made you learn.
Marc:And then, you know, this never-ending success of the show and then the creator wanting a spinoff and then that happening –
Oh, my God.
Marc:And then the Ariana Grande stuff, because I didn't even realize she was on the show.
Marc:She was on the spinoff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That was supposed to be your show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then, oh, then there's a whole sidebar that should be a whole other book is that the music career, because you don't really follow through with that.
Marc:That all of a sudden just stops.
Marc:In the book, it's like, you know.
Guest:That's how it was in real life, too.
Guest:It all of a sudden just stopped.
Marc:You're on a tour bus.
Marc:You're singing songs at malls.
Marc:And it's like, what's that?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But that must have been awful.
Guest:Yeah, I was not a natural... I was not a natural... They had me work with a body movement coach.
Guest:This guy worked with Rascal Flatts.
Guest:He'd tell me to kind of hold my arms out or to lift my arm up at a certain point.
Guest:It all just felt very awkward and...
Marc:For the dancing and singing?
Guest:For when I was doing music, just to go and do these shows at the malls.
Guest:They had me work with a body movement coach because they said that I looked so uncomfortable.
Guest:Were you singing, though?
Guest:I was singing, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Just that whole scene of going into a mall, like in a food court.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was wild.
Guest:It was wild.
Marc:And all the kids knew you from the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So they were just like this.
Marc:This is sort of where it starts, because there's always this point with, you know, overbearing mentally ill mothers or parents and celebrity kids where, you know, they're just working them like a racehorse.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because it's a money machine.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, the idea that it didn't even seem through most of the book leading up to the music thing that you even gave a shit about music.
Guest:Yeah, never.
Guest:It was literally the writer's strike.
Marc:The first one.
Guest:Yeah, the old one that put our show on hiatus.
Guest:And then my manager at the time represented Hilary Duff, who called my mom and was like, you know what Hilary Duff does?
Guest:Music.
Guest:So you know what Jeanette should do?
Guest:Music.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And they were like, she can carry a tune.
Guest:Okay, so let's have her do that.
Yeah.
Marc:Managers of, you know, it's like the nature of the business, which I think you talk about pretty thoroughly, but you might, you know, in some ways were diplomatic.
Marc:For whatever reason.
Marc:But...
Marc:But it's pretty awful.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Agreed.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, I think, I don't know if it was people pleasing or for legal reasons.
Marc:You kind of, you know, the stuff you did, you know, to show them, to show the reader who they really are was, you know, damning enough.
Marc:But it does feel like that the nature of exploitation was probably a lot worse.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I agree.
Guest:You know, I was conscious of not making – not letting – I felt that that could easily undermine what I wanted the focus of the book to be about and what I felt was most important in the story.
Guest:So, you know, candidly, there were plenty more incidents that I could have explored that I chose not to because I did not want to make that story usurp the story that I wanted the focus to be on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They weren't – were they able to even pull clickbait out of this book?
Yeah.
Guest:They were.
Guest:So they actually were a week before or a couple weeks before the book came out.
Guest:And I was pretty upset about it and pretty scared about it.
Guest:And I thought, oh, this book is so much more to me than a takedown on Nickelodeon or a – I also don't talk about anything systemic.
Guest:I'm not trying to change laws for child actors.
Guest:I'm just sharing my personal story in a way that I hope is entertaining and in the best way that I know how.
Guest:But helpful.
Yeah.
Guest:I hope so.
Guest:I hope so.
Guest:But so I was scared that that was going to be the narrative.
Guest:And then I was so grateful.
Guest:I called my manager.
Guest:I was like, oh, my God, this is what it's going to be.
Guest:They're literally just going to be talking about fucking Nickelodeon more.
Guest:Like, what a joke that all that and I'm trying to get out of that.
Guest:And then it's this still like, come on.
Guest:They drag you back into the Nickelodeon talk.
Guest:I just get slimed.
Guest:And then he was like – he goes, no, just wait until the book comes out.
Guest:Just wait until people actually read the book.
Guest:And then the book did come out and the narrative very much changed.
Guest:And I'm truly, like, very, very grateful for that.
Guest:I was – it really would have – I was ready for that chip to be off my shoulder.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's funny that you say, I just want to be entertaining.
Marc:Well, you went pretty deep for it.
Marc:There's probably easier ways to entertain people.
Marc:I just want people to have fun with this book.
Marc:Maybe get the family around and read chapters out loud.
Marc:Yeah, that's exactly the kind of book it is.
Marc:It's amazing that one of the blurbs isn't fun, fun, fun.
Guest:What a romp.
Guest:What a fun, silly, silly romp.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:This is kooky.
Yeah.
Marc:But it evolves.
Marc:The way you sort of characterize bulimia, and I'm bringing up these horrendous things about these issues that you had in family members, but you do balance it all very well with comedy.
Marc:I was able to read the whole book.
Marc:It's all very funny.
Guest:I appreciate that, especially coming from you.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Marc:In an honest way.
Marc:It's funny in an honest way.
Marc:And you're aware of it.
Marc:You know, I could feel—and you're a good writer, so I could feel that there was a balance trying to be met all the way through.
Marc:And there was even points where I'm like, you know, you should have just left that fucker to sit in it.
Marc:You don't have to counter that with a joke, you know.
Guest:Oh, I would have liked your notes.
Guest:I'm curious.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Got to make it better.
Marc:No, I thought you were very – and I think it's your nature to be pathologically overly empathetic with certain people because of what you went through with your mom.
Marc:And I don't get anybody outside – I think you were more prone to sideline as opposed to throw people under the bus.
Marc:Just why make the book about that?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like when the bulimia starts, I mean, it felt like the way you portrayed it was like this was a revelation.
Marc:It was like one of the great breakthroughs in your life was figuring out how to make yourself vomit.
Guest:That's how it felt.
Guest:It was like, oh, my God, I've been doing this wrong the whole time.
Guest:You're telling me I can eat and then also not gain weight and I can have control in this way.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:It felt like it really did feel like a breakthrough.
Yeah.
Marc:But I'd never read anything about bulimia.
Marc:That it becomes such... It's like an addiction.
Marc:The throwing up.
Marc:Like you looked forward to it.
Marc:You couldn't wait to do it.
Marc:And if you couldn't do it, it'd be like a real disaster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It felt like complete...
Guest:I was always living in, you know, when can I throw up next or what am I going to eat next, which was then immediately followed by when can I throw up next.
Guest:And it was I'd romanticized food for so long with anorexia, but this was a whole new level.
Guest:It was it was obsession because I had deprived myself of food for so long.
Marc:So you could just eat like the worst.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And just know you could get rid of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, yeah, I mean, it got so bad.
Marc:I mean, one of your teeth, your fucking tooth fell out.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I still have teeth issues from it.
Guest:Like still to this day, it's just constantly I see my dentist so often and it's like a long process.
Marc:The only reason I laugh is because you made it funny in the book.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Because you've got to go to this audition after your tooth falls out or some event.
Guest:Yeah, press junket while Ariana Grande's song is playing in the back.
Guest:It's like, focus on me.
Guest:Do you know that song?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't know, but I get it.
Marc:But then there was that realization that, you know, because I do the same thing, when you resent people that do a totally different thing than you do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It makes absolutely no sense.
Marc:And like you were in complete sort of resentment and competition with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Literally, it makes zero sense.
Marc:And there you were, toothless, at a press junket with a song playing.
Guest:With a dead mom and a schizophrenic boyfriend.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Oh, and the booze.
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:I mean, I used to, I've been sober a long time, but I don't even think I drank as much as you drank.
Marc:You made it sound like you're just drinking bottles of tequila a day.
Guest:It was so it was it was also I mean, it was a means to avoid to, you know, cope with social anxiety, which I always had struggled with a lot.
Guest:And I felt like, oh, I can finally show up and just like not be anxious.
Guest:This is great.
Guest:It felt I felt like I was discovering all these helpful tools and bulimia and alcoholism.
Guest:It was like, cool.
Guest:I got it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And exercise, right?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Great.
Marc:How are you exercising like just sweating fucking vodka?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm sure I just reeked all the time.
Guest:You must have smelled terrible.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:Wow.
Yeah.
Marc:But you drank a lot.
Guest:I drank a ton.
Guest:I drank a ton.
Guest:And I also would use, you know, little, like, I'm curious if you did this, but it's like I was not a sloppy drunk.
Guest:You know, I could still be very coherent and, you know, somewhat articulate.
Guest:And so I'd play games with myself like, oh, how much can I drink while still just kind of maintaining that?
Guest:this how can i how can i have a game an interaction with the alcohol where i have to still show up and be you know look as appears if i'm not but i actually have yeah does it make sense yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah really sure well no it's your acting chops there you go yeah but you're used to living to you could kind of balance this stuff out totally
Marc:You're lucky you didn't get into horrendous sexual situations.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I feel that.
Marc:The one part of the book where I'm like, that's not going to happen, is it?
Marc:No, you just had a schizophrenic guy who could fuck many times, it seems.
Guest:Many times.
Guest:Many times.
Marc:But were you guys all in denial about whether she would die or not right up till the end, really?
Guest:I think my oldest brother was probably the least in denial at the time.
Guest:And I think, I can't speak for my other brothers, but my best guess is that kind of me and my brothers Scott and Dustin were more in denial.
Guest:I was certainly absolutely in denial.
Marc:Because you'd be living with this cancer thing forever.
Marc:Even though she didn't have it, the thread of it was always there.
Marc:And she had survived it once before.
Marc:And she made you watch that videotape over and over again.
Guest:Constantly.
Guest:It was a VHS where she was singing us all songs so that we'd remember her.
Marc:Right.
Marc:After she died.
Guest:After she died.
Guest:And we'd rewatch it every Sunday.
Guest:Like, it was a fun...
Guest:a fun little Disney movie or something.
Guest:She'd pop it in with tears in her eyes and we'd watch her singing songs.
Guest:But no, there had been so many cancer scares that it really didn't feel like it was possible that she would go.
Guest:Just like, oh, it's going to be another one where it's this life-threatening, scary situation.
Guest:She's hospitalized.
Guest:And then they say, oh, shockingly, it defies our medical understanding.
Guest:The amount of times that my mom defied a doctor's medical understanding is beyond me.
Guest:I feel like people said that phrase so often.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Narcissists are hard to kill.
Guest:They really are.
Guest:They really are.
Marc:My dad's one, and he's got dementia.
Marc:We're like, oh, he's just going to be this shell.
Marc:He's never going to die.
Marc:He's going to be just sitting there confused, but he's going to outlive everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How long has he had dementia?
Marc:Pretty new.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It's been a couple years.
Guest:Is it getting very quick, rapidly getting worse?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I should call him.
Marc:We'll see if I register.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So was it the death of your mother that made you bottom out?
Guest:I think it was the – I think it was even more so the dad information, finding out that my dad wasn't my dad because that then told me – my mom didn't tell me.
Guest:She never told me.
Marc:That was like the final pieces.
Marc:Like there was barely anything holding your sense of self together.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That just took it all away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in a way, I think it really was that series of events.
Guest:It was –
Guest:There was no one to do anything for anymore.
Guest:I pushed everything away and said, okay, I'm actually going to just listen to myself and find my fucking self, find what that means to me, find what that is.
Marc:And he got a good eating disorder therapist.
Guest:Got an amazing eating disorder therapist.
Guest:He was truly life-changing.
Guest:He was so good.
Marc:Didn't love your first therapist.
Guest:No.
Marc:She seemed to be in it for the wrong reasons.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She was an interesting character.
Marc:Would you change all those names?
No.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I'm sure she's still working.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:God bless.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Okay, so that was it.
Marc:So you were ready to ask for real help.
Guest:Yeah, I was ready to ask for real help.
Guest:I felt...
Guest:You know, I think the information about my dad told me, OK, my mom – for my mom to have kept this from me, either, you know, she had plenty of time knowing that she was going to die to kind of tie up loose ends, you know, make amends, give closure.
Guest:And she chose to not do that.
Guest:And I kept trying to find reasons for why she chose to not do that.
Guest:That's interesting, yeah.
Guest:That would kind of make her –
Guest:better than she was right and then ultimately it was I just realized you know what she didn't tell me regardless of the reasons and either any way that I try to do the math on this I don't respect that she didn't tell me or my brothers that she just knew she was gonna die and knew inevitably that this either she thought the information wouldn't come out which is I don't respect that or she thought it would and just thought okay well it's not mine to deal with anymore that everybody else will deal with it which I also don't respect so it was like or that she didn't care
Guest:Or that she didn't care.
Marc:I think that, you know, there's a lot of ways to pathologize your mother's mental condition.
Marc:But if she was a narcissist, really, which she was, I had imagined, among other issues.
Marc:And I don't really know.
Marc:I'm not a psychotherapist.
Marc:But, I mean, she probably...
Marc:It didn't register as important because she wasn't capable of empathy in a real way.
Guest:Yeah, or I wonder if she just felt that she had everyone so manipulated that no one would possibly say a word.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't think that's conscious.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But she did.
Marc:But that's the weird thing.
Marc:She did have a pretty good mindfuck on everybody.
Guest:Yeah, she really did.
Marc:It's crazy because, look, by the time me and my brother and my father—
Marc:You know, we all have eating problems.
Marc:Like, my dad got him, and he's a grown-ass man.
Marc:And all of a sudden, he was, you know, kind of like, you know, losing weight and stuff.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't even know what that was about.
Marc:I didn't think about it totally until I read the book about him, too.
Guest:It sticks.
Guest:Yeah, that stuff sticks.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:But he was a grown-ass man.
Guest:Yeah, that's...
Marc:But anyway, the – so this eating disorder guy sounds like it was really good.
Marc:Like, you know, it was hard, but you were able to pull back from purging.
Marc:Like, I'd never – see, like, I don't know – like, that's the other thing about bulimia specifically, the sort of – the difficulty of trying not to do it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think something that was really helpful about this therapist was how neutralizing he was.
Guest:I assumed that because I was working on – because I was showing up and trying to work on this eating disorder and recovering from this eating disorder, then I'd have to love my body and woo-woo.
Guest:Like it just felt like – I couldn't imagine getting to that place.
Guest:where the eating disorder didn't run my life.
Guest:And I think, you know, he made me realize things like, oh, you don't have to love your body to not have an eating disorder, which sounds so simple.
Guest:But I don't think I realized that there was a middle ground, that there was another option.
Guest:I thought it was either complete body positivity and love or...
Guest:chaos and self-destruction at all times.
Guest:And just he helped me, yeah, recognize so many of my patterns, so many of my triggers around what would make me purge and why, binge and purge and why.
Guest:He helped interrupt that cycle.
Guest:And it just, I mean, everything that he said was in some way helpful.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was great.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's so many episodes in the book where, like, the fact that you stay loyal to your mother,
Marc:You know, throughout a lot of this, you know, as a young adult, but like that whole thing when you snuck away on that trip with the boyfriend and paparazzi took pictures and she saw them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Her reaction to that was heinous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it really was.
Guest:Yeah, she could be very abusive in the way that she emailed me after that incident that was, you know, calling me a slut, a floozy.
Guest:A floozy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Classic.
Yeah.
Of course.
Guest:And, you know, sometimes after she died, I would get sad and I'd go back into the old email account to try to read email exchanges with her.
Guest:And 100% of the time, I'd wind up in tears and I'd just close my laptop and I couldn't read anymore because they were all abusive.
Guest:They were all so cruel.
Marc:And you couldn't look at him that way in the time.
Marc:You just thought you had it coming.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Anytime that I saw it, I felt like, well, but she's coming from a good place.
Guest:But she means, well, she's just trying to make me a good girl.
Guest:I'm not a good girl.
Guest:Oh, God, I am these things.
Guest:I need to be better for mom.
Guest:I need to be better for mom.
Guest:It was always so anxious and so desperate to please her.
Guest:And then after her death, I was able to read them as I'd go into them to try to find some message of positivity or some message of.
Guest:some confirmation that we were what I thought we were, and I never got it.
Guest:You know, reading them back, it was just, oh, God, this was really—this was pretty dark, basically 100% of the time.
Marc:It's amazing you got out of the Minds app.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I do think so.
Guest:Yeah, I can't believe it sometimes.
Marc:And also the fact that you really kind of had to stop acting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because you don't ever think you did it for yourself.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was—
Guest:It really threw me quitting acting because I felt like, you know, I had deliberately, okay, am I going to quit?
Guest:Am I not going to quit?
Guest:Am I going to quit for months?
Guest:And then finally I do.
Guest:And it's just quiet after that.
Guest:You know, it's just nobody begs you to come back.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just done.
Marc:There's some good show business stuff around the conference calls with all the people.
Guest:You know those kinds of calls?
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I never achieved the level of fame you did, but I thought it all made sense.
Guest:How do you feel about the entertainment industry as a whole?
Marc:I don't think it exists the same way it did for most people like it did with you.
Marc:I think it's dramatically changed since you were a celebrity and part of a series, but maybe not.
Marc:But for me, somehow or another, I persevered on my own terms.
Marc:And I don't think I had...
Marc:representation other than managers asking agents for favors for most of my career.
Marc:And now because my success was all built around this, but I was ready for whatever came.
Marc:So my relationship with it is different.
Marc:But sometimes I'm thinking like, I was just at a party at John Mulaney's birthday party with pretty young people.
Marc:But for some reason, I thought we were all the same age for a while, but we weren't.
Marc:And I'm old.
Marc:And these guys are like 20 years younger than me, but they're talking about their agents and their lawyers.
Marc:I'm like, wow, maybe I haven't put enough thought into this business.
Marc:Maybe I should be more aware of what my lawyer can do.
Marc:But I think that's the nature of talent in general.
Marc:So my experience was not at the level you were at.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Marc:Because when you're making other people a lot of money, then everybody's all in, and they just want to keep that machine going.
Guest:Yep, it is a machine.
Marc:I've never had that problem.
Marc:Like, if I stopped doing anything, no one's livelihood was going to be compromised but mine.
Yeah.
Guest:That's cool.
Guest:I feel like that allows for much better decisions, much more pure decisions to be made.
Marc:Well, what has to shift with my experience is the weird sort of desperation and anger of not being where your peers are and knowing that you're just as talented.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So you got to live with that.
Marc:Like, you know, what the fuck?
Marc:You know, but I, you know, I, you know, I'm difficult and I'm not as a, as a talent, but in what I do, you know, I'm pretty, you know, straightforward and a little confrontational and like, I'm not everyone's idea of a fun night out.
Guest:Is there any piece of you that still has that narrative in you of the, whatever, however you dwarded it with the peers, um, less than the peers?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Guest:You still feel like you have that now?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I have to not unlike you had to sort of compartmentalize, you know, your experience with resentment around Ariana.
Marc:I really have to figure out what it is I'm resenting, because I think it's just it all comes from a a fundamental less than.
Marc:point of view of yourself sure sure so so a lot of times when that happens like you know like i know i don't want to play arenas i know it's not really my bag yeah yeah and there are some roles that are not right for me yeah and there are some people that are more popular because their heads a different shape or they speak in a more general way to a bigger audience and i can see all those things yeah
Marc:And then it just comes down to, like, well, do you want to do more of that?
Marc:Was that ever your goal?
Marc:And I'm like, I don't think so.
Guest:That's what I'm wondering.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It doesn't sound like it.
Guest:Yeah, I was curious, what is the goal or what is the – are you happy doing what you're doing now?
Guest:Or is there something that you've got a target on where you're like, that would be the – that would make me happy.
Guest:That would be the – No, no.
Marc:I don't know if I think in terms of happiness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, there are things I've wanted to do and that, you know, that I was jealous of in the past, but I've gotten to do them all.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But not that many people gave a shit, but I did get to do them in a way.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And I'm not sure what I really expect because my producer's always like, I don't know if you have a...
Marc:the correct way of seeing how other people see you.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:You know, I'm not Ray Romano.
Marc:I didn't have this sitcom and I don't have $200 million in the bank.
Marc:But I had my little sitcom on IFC and it was a reasonable and honest representation to me.
Marc:But again, it's really sort of realizing that
Marc:Most of my struggle as a performer was really about what you had to do after you became one.
Marc:I think because of whatever I went through as a kid, I was really just trying to have a place for myself, to own myself.
Marc:So it was always sort of like, I'm going to speak my mind.
Marc:I'm going to do this.
Marc:But I wanted to act.
Marc:I wanted to do these other things.
Marc:But I think if I'm honest about it, I don't know that I even got into comedy to entertain people.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I think I got into comedy to have my point of view heard.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And to be seen.
Guest:I have so much respect for you to say that.
Guest:I feel like that's such the case for so many people in whatever they're doing and nobody owns that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like it's really rare to own it.
Marc:Oh, well, yeah, I have to.
Marc:So cool.
Marc:Or how am I not going to own it?
Marc:Then I'll just like be consumed with jealousy.
Marc:Yes, totally.
Marc:But no, I'm okay.
Marc:I mean, I do.
Marc:But the thing is, is like I'm compulsive.
Marc:I, you know, I work all the time.
Marc:You know, I'm constantly generating new material.
Marc:I'm talking to people all the time.
Marc:It's like a very full life emotionally and creatively.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just not judged in the same way that – I'm not making anybody a fortune.
Marc:And I'm not playing in that game.
Marc:But I'm in the game right below that, which is fine.
Marc:I can live my life.
Guest:I agree with your producer, I guess.
Guest:Even coming in or whatever my perception is, whatever my idea is of you, of your success is –
Guest:I feel like different from how you're representing it.
Guest:But I also understand that what you're talking about internally, just from my personal experience.
Marc:Because there is part of me that's like, I'm for everybody.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How is anyone missing this?
Marc:I'm family entertainment.
Marc:But I also know that I'm not, you know, then I think that I had a big realization of that recently.
Guest:Do you think there's a world in which you feel like you are the for everybody thing and you go, I hate being for everybody.
Guest:Why am I for everybody?
Guest:I'm fucking cooler than that.
Marc:Well, I used to do a joke about that.
Marc:If everybody likes you, what kind of asshole are you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I'm aware of all this stuff.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:No, I know.
Marc:And there's no way I can be any different because I've fought so hard and long just to be me.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:So I can't.
Marc:You know, and there's some part of me like I know that I'm a little different than the guy on stage and maybe I'm a little different than the guy in these mics, but not much.
Marc:There's just more time.
Marc:And I don't think most of my day would be that interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So.
Marc:So you quit acting.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And doubted the decision.
Guest:I felt like once I had this thought that, okay, once I make the decision either way, I'm either going to stay in it because, you know, my grandparents wanted me to stay in it.
Guest:And they'd say, but do you know how difficult it is to support yourself off of this career?
Guest:And this is what everybody wants.
Guest:Nobody that I knew, friends or family, nobody in my close circle supported the decision.
Guest:You know, everybody was saying it would be the worst mistake of my life and I'd regret it and it'd be terrible.
Guest:And
Guest:Being that I had always trusted other people's opinions over my own, I didn't know how to kind of come to terms with the fact that I really did not want to do it anymore.
Guest:I think it was also very important for my eating disorder recovery to not be doing it.
Guest:I think I really needed to step away from all that it was for me up to that point.
Guest:And the baggage that it carried, I just needed a fresh start and to kind of define myself away from it.
Guest:But it was really scary.
Guest:I felt like making the decision would then just...
Guest:It would wash away, and I'd have clarity once I made the decision.
Guest:That did not happen.
Guest:I made the decision to quit, and then I doubted that decision, and then I felt like, oh, I shouldn't have.
Guest:What was I thinking?
Guest:They were right, that I'd regret it, I do regret it.
Marc:But you were also their meal ticket.
Guest:True, true.
Marc:I mean, how does that not factor into it?
Marc:It's true.
Guest:But then with enough time away, I started realizing how much healthier I was getting, how much more confident, genuinely confident I was becoming in myself, how I was able to, you know, it sounds so silly, but, like, even what I would wear, you know, even what I would wear was coming from a different place because it's not how to please the casting director, how to dress like the role, how to dress like what mom wants me to dress.
Guest:It was – I literally go, what do I want to wear?
Guest:And something like that –
Guest:If I would have had to answer that question six months beforehand, it would have sent me to a tailspin.
Guest:I would have had no idea how to answer what the fuck I want to wear, what do I like?
Guest:And to start being able to answer that little by little and other questions of what my preferences are, what is my taste, what do I like, what do I enjoy, who do I like, it was really transformative and really the shifts started happening pretty quickly after the first – yeah, there were a couple months of deep confusion and like a regret and then the shifts started happening pretty quickly.
Marc:And did this book start as a show?
Yeah.
Guest:Sort of, yeah.
Guest:I did it as a live show in 2019, and then COVID hit, and then I did it again after COVID, and it kind of completely changed by then.
Guest:And in the middle of COVID was when the book deal kind of happened.
Guest:And, yeah, it's very – I kind of rethought it for the book because it wouldn't have been – it wouldn't have worked if I had just kind of transcribed whatever the one-person show was to this.
Marc:No, no, you've got to expand on it.
Guest:Yeah, it was totally different, and also the live show was, like, musical.
Guest:So, yeah, it had changed a lot.
Marc:Back into the music, huh?
Guest:There you go, yeah.
Marc:Oh, see that?
Marc:You're a singer after all.
Marc:No, I thought it was really well-written and very funny.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:That's so nice.
Guest:I really put a lot of work into it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Marc:And you had a good editor?
Guest:I had a really helpful editor.
Guest:His name's Sean Manning.
Guest:I sing his praises any chance I get.
Guest:He's at Simon & Schuster.
Guest:He was recently promoted to vice president.
Guest:Oh, nice.
Guest:And he's amazing.
Guest:He knew exactly what I was trying to do from the initial proposal.
Guest:And there was no – I feel like – I'm curious if you feel this way.
Guest:A lot of times if I'm trying to do something creatively, I feel there's a lot of trying to pull the idea to be something that it's not, trying to pull the basic shape of a thing to be something that it's not.
Guest:And then it's just a lot of uphill battles of trying to convince people that this way is right and that they're trying to convince you.
Guest:And it just feels like –
Guest:how is this ever going to become anything when it's just they want it to be this and I want it to be this.
Guest:I did not have that experience at all.
Guest:He knew exactly what it was I was trying to do and supported it fully from the get go.
Guest:And the relationship with him was amazing.
Guest:We just emailed back and forth for for a year in the writing of the book.
Guest:And he would put all his notes in the do all his margin notes and I'd explore them.
Guest:But it wasn't even like phone calls or zooms or anything.
Guest:It was just all all in writing.
Guest:And I loved it that way.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:Yeah, that's great.
Marc:I mean, yeah, and good editors are important, especially when you're writing.
Marc:So what are you doing now?
Guest:No pressure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm doing – I'm actually working on my first novel.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And I've really enjoyed that.
Guest:It was a pain in the ass at first trying to find it and figure out what it was.
Guest:And I found it, and that feels now very – I'm excited about it, and I'm working on this podcast now.
Marc:It's called hard feelings?
Guest:It's called hard feelings.
Marc:But now do you go, it would seem that you could have a side hustle in speaking.
Guest:I do some speaking.
Guest:I did, like, a college tour after the book.
Guest:I think I did, like, a 35-date kind of college tour, and that was really— How'd that go?
Guest:It was really tiring.
Guest:It was really tiring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I also—I couldn't really write on the road.
Guest:I don't know if you experienced this, but, like, it feels weird to me.
Guest:I can't, like—I have to be really in my particular little setup with my laptop and, like, just my coffee and just get it done.
Guest:I couldn't, like, open my laptop while on a plane and—
Guest:say anything worthwhile.
Guest:I can't do it on command in an environment that's not one that I feel really comfortable in.
Guest:So it didn't really get any writing done.
Guest:I felt cranky.
Guest:I felt cranky and tired, the whole college tour, to be totally honest.
Marc:And now is your podcast video?
Guest:No, no video, thank God.
Guest:I don't think I could do it that way.
Guest:It's just audio.
Marc:And you don't feel like to get into the world of influencing...
Guest:I'd rather not.
Guest:I actually had somebody help me out.
Guest:I hired somebody to help me out with social media for a couple weeks because I'm so bad at it.
Guest:That's really not my thing.
Guest:But then it didn't work out because I felt like, well, even though I'm bad at it, I'd rather it be in my voice and sound like me and feel like me or whatever that is worth.
Guest:And so I stopped working with her.
Guest:She was lovely and great at what she did, but it just...
Marc:Not your bag.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I still don't – I don't know how to crop a photo.
Guest:Like I posted a photo today that's like horribly cropped because I can't fucking figure out how to do it – post it accurately on Instagram.
Guest:But it's at least in my voice and that matters to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's important.
Marc:Well, I mean I don't think you should underestimate how – what a –
Marc:service you're doing for people with these struggles.
Marc:Because I think that these kind of books, whatever market aside, is that people who find these books, a book like this, because it's so broad in just the number of issues you had to deal with because of the insanity you come from, there's a little something for all fucked up people in this book.
Guest:Love it.
Marc:Get a little drugs, a little food disorder, a little crazy mom stuff, family stuff, hoarding, dealing with chaos, expectation.
Guest:Crazy dysfunction.
Marc:It's all in there, but I think, and this is my experience in some of the work that I do, that
Marc:When you can, you know, live with it and also make it funny, it gives people hope, which is hard to come by.
Guest:Yeah, I think I think so.
Guest:I think I think there's a way of, you know, of doing the book that didn't have any humor.
Guest:And that to me feels it actually feels more dishonest that way, because I do think life's kind of funny at the same time.
Guest:It's really sad all the time.
Guest:Well.
Marc:I mean, humor is a coping mechanism.
Marc:So, you know, why take that out of it and just have this relentlessly horrible story?
Marc:Brutal.
Guest:It would be unreadable, I think.
Marc:It would be rough.
Guest:It would be real rough.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Fun, fun, fun.
Marc:Well, like I said, my girlfriend and her sister are grateful just in terms of, you know, providing some voice to it, to those kind of issues.
Marc:So, you know...
Marc:It's good.
Marc:You did good.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It was nice talking to you.
Guest:Yeah, good talking to you, too.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:All right.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:The book, I'm Glad My Mom Died, is available everywhere.
Marc:Her podcast, Hard Feelings with Jeanette McCurdy, launched this week.
Marc:Subscribe to it wherever you listen to podcasts.
Marc:And hang out for a minute.
Marc:All right, folks.
Marc:So for full Marin subscribers, we have more producer cuts posted for you this week.
Marc:These are things that didn't make it into recent episodes, including more from my talk with Gary Goldman.
Marc:Compare and despair.
Marc:Yeah, don't tell me about it.
Marc:But I don't compare and despair.
Marc:Now it's just, you know, some are reasonable resentments based on my personal understanding of things.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:No, I'm full of I'm full of resentment.
Guest:Yeah, still as well.
Guest:Just not so much.
Guest:but there are certain things where something will come up and I'll think to myself, yeah, I could have used that 15 years ago when I was broke.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And now, but that's always the case, it seems, in show business.
Guest:Long after you need something, it appears.
Marc:To sign up for the full Marin and get bonus episodes twice a week, just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:Next week, on Monday, we have comedian Dan Soder, and on Thursday, producer Lou Adler, who opened the Roxy Theater in Hollywood 50 years ago.
Marc:Here's some slide.
Marc:Here's some slide.
Marc:Here's some slide guitar.
Marc:For Lorraine.
Marc:Always for Lorraine.
Marc:guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.