Episode 1474 - LeVar Burton

Episode 1474 • Released September 28, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:11Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucker Delix?

00:00:15Marc:I don't know what's happening.

00:00:17Marc:What is it?

00:00:18Marc:It's the day after my birthday, but I'm recording it on my birthday.

00:00:22Marc:So this is the sound of me on my birthday.

00:00:27Marc:that you're hearing the day after my birthday.

00:00:29Marc:Does that make sense?

00:00:31Marc:That's the way it works here.

00:00:32Marc:But, you know, I got plans.

00:00:35Marc:You know, by the time you hear this, I will have had a nice dinner and I will be looking forward to my little birthday get-together on Saturday.

00:00:44Marc:I got a lot of nice birthday texts.

00:00:47Marc:I got birthday greetings.

00:00:49Marc:I got things that were be... I got nice things.

00:00:53Marc:No badness.

00:00:54Marc:I got some cards.

00:00:56Marc:I'm 60 fucking years old.

00:00:58Marc:60 fucking years old.

00:01:01Marc:I woke up yesterday, but today, and I'm 60.

00:01:06Marc:But I didn't do, I didn't freak out.

00:01:08Marc:I'll tell you what I did on my birthday morning.

00:01:11Marc:I got it together.

00:01:12Marc:I woke up.

00:01:13Marc:I fed my cats.

00:01:15Marc:I thought about being 60.

00:01:16Marc:I stretched.

00:01:18Marc:I thought about how that felt.

00:01:20Marc:Nothing's changed that much.

00:01:22Marc:Went to the gym, got on the treadmill, and I thought, all right, man, we'll do something, dude.

00:01:28Marc:Do something that is going to get you amped up for 60.

00:01:34Marc:So there I was on the treadmill.

00:01:36Marc:I was trying to make some musical choices, and I'm like, there's only one thing to do.

00:01:42Marc:On your 60th birthday morning on the fucking treadmill.

00:01:46Marc:That's right.

00:01:47Marc:ACDC powerage.

00:01:49Marc:And you know what?

00:01:50Marc:Got to be honest with you.

00:01:51Marc:Not only is it great, but AirPods don't get loud enough.

00:01:56Marc:Is there some sort of hack that I can make the AirPods kind of almost rupture my eardrums like it's supposed to be heard?

00:02:05Marc:I believe that if I used headphones, it'd be better.

00:02:08Marc:Does anyone know how to jack my AirPod volume?

00:02:12Marc:It seems like my AirPods are already set for seniors.

00:02:17Marc:I needed it louder.

00:02:18Marc:That was the only disappointment of my birthday so far, is that I could not get ACDC's powerage loud enough while I was on the treadmill.

00:02:28Marc:Big day.

00:02:29Marc:This is how one spends a big day.

00:02:32Marc:A big, special birthday.

00:02:34Marc:My dad called me.

00:02:35Marc:He remembered.

00:02:36Marc:And he remembered my name.

00:02:37Marc:I have not heard from my mother yet.

00:02:39Marc:Don't know why.

00:02:40Marc:But, you know, she's, you know, got her own things going on.

00:02:42Marc:That'll happen.

00:02:43Marc:Again, this is being recorded the day of.

00:02:46Marc:She's not a day late.

00:02:47Marc:All my friends have not heard from my brother yet.

00:02:49Marc:And it's already...

00:02:51Marc:Man, it's one thirty in the afternoon here on my birthday.

00:02:55Marc:No brother call, no mother call.

00:02:57Marc:But my old man called because his wife's on top of it.

00:03:00Marc:And he and I called him back and he just turned on.

00:03:04Marc:He ran the tape.

00:03:04Marc:Happy birthday.

00:03:06Marc:Yeah, it's something, man.

00:03:09Marc:It's 60.

00:03:10Marc:the people at a cast sent me a nice rubber plant, beautiful plant.

00:03:15Marc:I think it will live on my porch.

00:03:17Marc:I got a nice, uh, kind of chef's table situation, uh, at the house, uh, coupon or, or gift certificate from my management.

00:03:27Marc:I, uh, I heard from a lot of friends, peers, other comics, uh,

00:03:33Marc:I talked to Lou Adler on my birthday and he's like 90 and he knew it was my birthday.

00:03:39Marc:I was nice of him.

00:03:39Marc:Came over, did an interview.

00:03:40Marc:It was the time we had scheduled, but it was my birthday and we were able to reflect on his long life and it made me think about mine.

00:03:49Marc:My buddy Danny LaBelle called me and he's he brought up some weird passing moment from way back in the day where he was at my house and we were smoking cigars.

00:03:59Marc:I was playing the guitar and just hanging around talking.

00:04:02Marc:And he thought of it as a high point, like a memorable thing.

00:04:06Marc:And that's kind of struck me.

00:04:08Marc:He's kind of a Jewish Jew and he's a philosophical Jew and somewhat religious.

00:04:13Marc:But nonetheless, he usually calls me around this time because of Yom Kippur, the high holidays and my birthday.

00:04:19Marc:It's always nice to hear from Danny.

00:04:21Marc:But he made me think like, you know, maybe I should be reflecting on those moments.

00:04:25Marc:Sometimes they're just moments, man.

00:04:27Marc:Sometimes they're not chunks of time.

00:04:28Marc:Sometimes they're not even dinners.

00:04:30Marc:They're not long relationships.

00:04:32Marc:There's just these moments.

00:04:34Marc:in your life that light you up or that are memorable for good reasons.

00:04:41Marc:I tend to think about the ones that are horrible or what went, not so much regrets or what went wrong, but when I do reflect, I always, it's not a regret though, but I do sort of dwell on, you know, why didn't this, why didn't that, but it's not a coulda, woulda, shoulda either.

00:04:57Marc:It's just sort of how my memory works.

00:04:58Marc:It's like, oh yeah, that was a rough time.

00:05:01Marc:Yeah.

00:05:02Marc:Do you ever reflect?

00:05:03Marc:Yes, that was a rough time.

00:05:06Marc:Yeah, that was another rough time.

00:05:07Marc:Jesus, that time was devastating.

00:05:09Marc:But now I'm going to switch it.

00:05:10Marc:I'm going to turn the knob and I'm going to, you know, sort of maybe reflect on some of the good stuff.

00:05:18Marc:That's what I'll be doing.

00:05:19Marc:I'll let you know how that goes.

00:05:21Marc:I forgot to tell you, LeVar Burton is on the show.

00:05:24Marc:This guy is a good guy, a sweet guy, and a righteous dude, man.

00:05:31Marc:He's beloved by multiple generations for his work on the reading rainbow, as well as his role on Star Trek.

00:05:40Marc:Star Trek, not Star Trek.

00:05:42Marc:Star Trek, the next generation.

00:05:45Marc:I say it's Star Trek most of the time.

00:05:47Marc:He also is the host of the podcast LeVar Burton Reads, which is back for its ninth season.

00:05:53Marc:And he has a new podcast coming out called Sound Detectives.

00:05:55Marc:And he was in Roots.

00:05:57Marc:He was in Roots.

00:05:58Marc:That was it, man.

00:05:59Marc:You know, that was his big break.

00:06:02Marc:Roots.

00:06:04Marc:So look, thanks for all the Ask Mark Anything questions you've been sending in.

00:06:08Marc:They're always good.

00:06:09Marc:There's still time to ask me a question before next week's full Marin bonus episode.

00:06:13Marc:You can go to the link in the episode description and submit your question on the Google form and sign up for the full Marin while you're there if you'd like.

00:06:21Marc:My tour dates are coming up fast.

00:06:23Marc:I'm in Bellingham, Washington at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival.

00:06:31Marc:It's pretty up there.

00:06:33Marc:Portland, Oregon is sold out October 20th through 22nd.

00:06:36Marc:Boston.

00:06:37Marc:I'm at the TD Garden for Comics Come Home on Saturday, November 4th with a bunch of other people.

00:06:42Marc:Dennis Leary and Cam Neely's Big Cancer Benefit.

00:06:44Marc:I haven't done those.

00:06:46Marc:It's got to be like, what, 20 years?

00:06:48Marc:Is that possible?

00:06:49Marc:I don't know.

00:06:50Marc:I was on the second and third one, I think.

00:06:52Marc:Then I'm at the Chemo Theater in Albuquerque, New Mexico for one show on November 11th.

00:06:56Marc:That's selling out quickly.

00:06:58Marc:Denver, Colorado is coming up.

00:07:01Marc:I'll be at the Comedy Works South for four shows, November 17th and 18th.

00:07:06Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets to everything.

00:07:11Marc:And I will be adding a bunch of L.A.

00:07:13Marc:dates in December to keep working on the hour.

00:07:16Marc:I'm going to do Dynasty typewriter dates.

00:07:18Marc:I'm also going to do the Elysian Theater dates.

00:07:21Marc:Just want to keep it fresh.

00:07:22Marc:So there will be some local shows happening.

00:07:26Marc:I'll post those soon.

00:07:28Marc:the other thing I want to talk about, if I could, I've, I went to my PO box and this is a sober thing.

00:07:38Marc:I went to my PO box and,

00:07:40Marc:And I hadn't been there in weeks.

00:07:43Marc:And I got this this letter or card from Terry T. I don't know Terry T. All right.

00:07:52Marc:She I assume is a listener and she is part of the fellowship.

00:07:57Marc:And every year.

00:07:58Marc:on my sober anniversary, which is August 9th.

00:08:02Marc:She seemed, or last, certainly the last few years, she seems to send me a card and, and, and this time she sent me a chip.

00:08:10Marc:I think she sent me one last time, but the amazing thing is I don't know her and I don't have a chip.

00:08:16Marc:You know, you get on in the years and, you know, I don't have a regular home group currently.

00:08:21Marc:And, you know, I think a few years ago I bought my own chip and it's not like I carry him around, but the chip has meaning.

00:08:28Marc:It has meaning if you're sober.

00:08:30Marc:And when you're young in sobriety, chips are important, man.

00:08:34Marc:You know, that newcomer chip, that one month chip, that three month chip, that six month chip.

00:08:40Marc:Those are the plastic ones, that nine month chip plastic.

00:08:43Marc:And then at a year you get a metal one.

00:08:45Marc:And then after that, you know, you just I'm taking another little plastic bag now.

00:08:53Marc:And after that, you know, people usually give you their chips.

00:08:55Marc:Sometimes, you know, you get hand-me-down chips from people you respect or you look up to or your sponsor gives you one.

00:09:01Marc:Sometimes you pass it around the room so everyone can touch it for some magic.

00:09:06Marc:But, you know, I just I haven't had anyone to give me the metal chips in years.

00:09:11Marc:And I believe I believe.

00:09:13Marc:Terry T from Little Rock might have sent me my last one too.

00:09:19Marc:But now I've got my 24-year chip, a little metal, looks like a gold one, shiny chip.

00:09:29Marc:From just someone in the fellowship who knows me, knows my sober day, probably listens to this show.

00:09:35Marc:Terry T, the card said, would you have believed when you attended those first meetings so very long ago that you could possibly sustain your sobriety for this length of time?

00:09:46Marc:No, no.

00:09:48Marc:Perhaps not, but you're still here and we're still here.

00:09:50Marc:And the miracle is that we can have a positive impact on the lives of others as we carry the AA message.

00:09:57Marc:Happy birthday.

00:09:58Marc:And then she wrote happy 24.

00:10:00Marc:Love and light.

00:10:01Marc:Terry T, your sober friend in Little Rock, Arkansas.

00:10:05Marc:And there's a card for Little Rock Central Office.

00:10:07Marc:If you're in Arkansas and need a meeting, Arkansas Central Office is available with information.

00:10:13Marc:Meeting guide.

00:10:15Marc:Anything you need.

00:10:17Marc:Sober related.

00:10:18Marc:And I got my coin.

00:10:19Marc:So I guess this is just a thank you.

00:10:24Marc:On my natal birthday.

00:10:27Marc:to Terry T in Arkansas for my 24-year sober chip.

00:10:34Marc:Metal.

00:10:36Marc:Metal!

00:10:37Marc:Man, when you get into the metal ones, they only come every year, but, you know, they got some weight to them.

00:10:44Marc:So does your sobriety each year that goes by.

00:10:48Marc:Thank you again, Terry.

00:10:49Marc:Always good to hear from you once a year.

00:10:51Marc:Okay, look.

00:10:54Marc:LeVar Burton, what a great guy.

00:10:56Marc:I should tell you that LeVar Burton Reads is available wherever you get podcasts.

00:11:01Marc:And his new show, Sound Detectives, is coming soon.

00:11:04Marc:You can subscribe to it now in all podcast apps.

00:11:08Marc:And this is me talking to LeVar Burton.

00:11:20Guest:What kind of might be?

00:11:23Guest:Well, when we're in the studio, because I tried doing, I don't have a thing.

00:11:30Guest:I don't have a room like this.

00:11:32Guest:So I tried, I recorded two seasons during lockdown of my podcast.

00:11:38Guest:Which one?

00:11:39Guest:LeVar Burton Reads.

00:11:40Marc:And then there's a new one, right?

00:11:42Guest:The new one is Sound Detectives.

00:11:43Guest:That hasn't premiered yet.

00:11:45Guest:Not yet.

00:11:45Guest:No.

00:11:46Guest:It's for children and families.

00:11:48Guest:Yeah.

00:11:49Guest:What's the angle?

00:11:51Guest:Sound Detectives, all of the sounds of the world are going missing.

00:11:55Guest:Oh.

00:11:57Marc:So it's a game.

00:11:59Guest:Kind of, yeah.

00:12:00Guest:And there are two detectives who are on the case to try and return sounds to the world.

00:12:09Yeah.

00:12:09Marc:How many episodes?

00:12:10Guest:12 in the first season.

00:12:12Marc:I tell you, man, it seems like the idea of creating stuff for kids, if you've got the hang of it, it must be kind of fun.

00:12:21Marc:I love it.

00:12:22Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, you keep things simple in a way.

00:12:24Marc:Yeah.

00:12:25Marc:You have kids?

00:12:26Marc:I have adults.

00:12:27Marc:Now.

00:12:28Marc:Yeah.

00:12:29Marc:But this passion for educating children.

00:12:33Marc:Yeah.

00:12:34Marc:Where did that come from?

00:12:35Guest:My mom.

00:12:36Marc:Oh.

00:12:36Guest:Yeah.

00:12:36Guest:She was a teacher.

00:12:37Marc:Is she around still?

00:12:38Marc:No, unfortunately not.

00:12:41Marc:Where did you grow up?

00:12:42Guest:Sacramento.

00:12:43Marc:Oh, my God.

00:12:43Marc:I just talked to someone else from Sacramento.

00:12:45Guest:Who's that?

00:12:46Marc:Jessica Chastain.

00:12:47Guest:Jessica Chastain.

00:12:48Guest:She is a favorite daughter.

00:12:51Guest:Yeah.

00:12:52Guest:From River City.

00:12:53Marc:How many favorite offspring are there from Sacramento?

00:12:57Guest:Well, there's Timothy Busfield.

00:12:58Guest:Okay.

00:12:59Guest:30-something.

00:13:00Guest:He's also a director.

00:13:01Marc:Oh, the redheaded guy?

00:13:02Guest:The redheaded guy.

00:13:05Guest:Heretofore known as the redheaded guy.

00:13:09Guest:I remember that guy.

00:13:10Guest:Yeah.

00:13:10Guest:He's a sack guy.

00:13:11Guest:He's a Sacramento guy.

00:13:13Guest:Mark Spitz.

00:13:14Guest:We claim Mark Spitz.

00:13:16Guest:The Jewish swimmer?

00:13:17Guest:The Olympic athlete.

00:13:20Marc:Swimmer.

00:13:21Marc:Yeah, right.

00:13:22Marc:Let's just break it down.

00:13:22Marc:Famous Mark Spitz.

00:13:23Marc:Famous Mark Spitz.

00:13:24Marc:When I was a kid, because I'm a Jew, he was a big deal.

00:13:27Marc:Yeah.

00:13:27Marc:It's like, look, a Jew can do this.

00:13:28Marc:Hello.

00:13:29Marc:Right?

00:13:30Right.

00:13:31Marc:Timothy B. Schmidt from the Eagles.

00:13:35Marc:Oh, that's right.

00:13:36Marc:From the original lineup.

00:13:37Marc:The bass player, I think.

00:13:38Marc:Eagles, right.

00:13:39Marc:Timothy B. Schmidt.

00:13:40Marc:You actually know all of them.

00:13:41Marc:I've met them all.

00:13:44Guest:At a Sacramento meeting?

00:13:45Guest:Yeah, like a meeting of Sacramento favorite sons and daughters.

00:13:49Guest:The Sac Hall of Fame?

00:13:51Guest:Well, actually, you know what?

00:13:55Guest:It's funny, but I met Timothy B. Schmidt.

00:13:58Guest:We were both installed in the Sacramento Walk of Fame in the same class in the same year.

00:14:06Guest:How big is that?

00:14:07Marc:How many blocks is that walk going?

00:14:09Guest:Sorry.

00:14:11Guest:You know, your cynical nature is never on hiatus, Mark Maron.

00:14:21Guest:It's a couple of blocks long.

00:14:23Guest:Okay.

00:14:24Marc:I guess I'm weird about Sacramento.

00:14:26Marc:Why?

00:14:27Marc:Well, I had a girlfriend years ago from Sacramento.

00:14:29Marc:It was not a great experience.

00:14:31Marc:But, I mean, I don't hold the city responsible.

00:14:33Marc:But I also, I mean, my memories of Sacramento are very specific.

00:14:37Marc:I used to do the punchline in Sacramento.

00:14:39Marc:you know, as the comedy club, which is in a strip mall, or it's in a mall next to a mattress store, like a strip mall.

00:14:46Marc:There used to be like a 50s-style diner there, and there was a Chili's, and we used to stay at the hotel across the street, and then over here was the Arden Fair Mall.

00:14:53Marc:Arden Fair Mall.

00:14:53Marc:So that's my experience of Sacramento.

00:14:56Marc:Okay.

00:14:57Marc:Sort of wandering around hungover,

00:15:00Marc:Back in the day at the Arden Fair Mall.

00:15:03Guest:Yeah.

00:15:04Guest:It's where we would go when I was in the seminary.

00:15:07Marc:Yeah.

00:15:08Guest:We would, once a year around Christmas time, they would bus us in from Galt to the Arden Fair Mall so that we might do our Christmas shopping.

00:15:18Guest:The seminary.

00:15:18Marc:How old were you when you were in the seminary?

00:15:20Guest:I entered St.

00:15:21Guest:Pius when I was 13, 13 and a half.

00:15:23Marc:Yeah.

00:15:23Marc:But wait a minute.

00:15:24Marc:I know.

00:15:25Guest:There's nothing equivalent in Judaism.

00:15:30Guest:To the seminary?

00:15:31Marc:Yeah.

00:15:32Marc:But the seminary, that's the track to priesthood.

00:15:35Marc:It is.

00:15:36Marc:It's not just a Catholic school.

00:15:38Marc:Correct.

00:15:39Marc:But you go that young?

00:15:41Marc:Yeah, you can.

00:15:42Marc:Really?

00:15:42Marc:Yeah.

00:15:43Guest:So do you have siblings?

00:15:44Guest:I do.

00:15:45Guest:How many?

00:15:46Guest:Well, two.

00:15:47Guest:My younger sister is no longer with us, but my elder sister certainly is.

00:15:50Marc:Okay.

00:15:51Marc:So you're a kid.

00:15:52Marc:Yeah.

00:15:53Marc:And you decide you're going to be a priest.

00:15:55Marc:I decided to become a priest when I was about eight.

00:15:58Guest:But who sticks to that?

00:16:00Guest:I did it until I got to the seminary.

00:16:04Guest:Wow.

00:16:05Guest:And then I guess it was that immersion in that culture that...

00:16:11Guest:coupled with having a teacher that really opened my eyes to different ways of looking at the world at the seminary yeah so he kind of worked against the objective he was you know it was it was the 70s and so the church was going through a lot of a lot of change um and and and i think society was going through a lot of change and um thankfully it was yeah

00:16:36Guest:I mean, it was civil rights.

00:16:38Guest:It was Vietnam.

00:16:39Guest:It was Kent State.

00:16:40Guest:It was the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

00:16:43Marc:68, that was, right?

00:16:44Marc:68, the Democratic National Convention then.

00:16:47Marc:But, like, it's interesting because you weren't quite old enough to be running around in the streets, but you were old enough to feel what was happening.

00:16:56Marc:Yes.

00:16:57Marc:Right.

00:16:57Marc:And there were, like, I remember there were some fairly well-known radical Catholic priests who were doing the right thing.

00:17:06Marc:Daniel Berrigan being one of them.

00:17:08Marc:Yeah, right.

00:17:08Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:10Marc:So this guy, how did he blow your mind?

00:17:13Guest:He was my instructor for all of my favorite classes.

00:17:15Guest:He was the English teacher.

00:17:17Guest:He was the philosophy teacher.

00:17:19Guest:So that was really, I mean, we were reading Kierkegaard.

00:17:25Guest:Yeah.

00:17:26Guest:Lao Tzu and Heidegger.

00:17:27Guest:I mean, really, he sort of blew the roof off of my mind as to how many different ways there are to look at and interact with the world.

00:17:37Guest:And Catholicism, you know, was just a slice.

00:17:41Guest:But did he say that?

00:17:42Guest:No, but that was my takeaway.

00:17:44Marc:That was your takeaway.

00:17:44Guest:That was my takeaway.

00:17:45Marc:But isn't that interesting that back then you could have these guys who could run their own class?

00:17:50Marc:Yeah.

00:17:51Marc:Even within something like that?

00:17:53Guest:The church was going through a lot of change and upheaval.

00:17:57Guest:And they were losing cats that had a vocation left, right, and center.

00:18:01Marc:But that was before the big pedophilia thing, which was ongoing.

00:18:06Guest:Catholic Church has been in crisis for hundreds of years.

00:18:08Guest:Making a lot of money, though.

00:18:09Guest:Well, there's a crisis and then there's crises.

00:18:12Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:18:12Guest:Right?

00:18:13Guest:So, you're brought up Catholic.

00:18:15Guest:Yeah.

00:18:16Guest:But not because, you know, there was any sort of history of Catholicism in my family.

00:18:21Guest:My mother was brought up in a more Southern Baptist tradition.

00:18:25Marc:Where are they from originally?

00:18:27Guest:My mom's from Kansas City, Missouri.

00:18:28Yeah.

00:18:28Marc:Yeah, see, that's where that is.

00:18:30Guest:Yeah, right.

00:18:31Marc:And what about your pop?

00:18:33Guest:He's from Arkansas, a little place near Cherry Hill.

00:18:40Marc:But you don't have a relationship with that guy?

00:18:42Marc:No, not particularly, no.

00:18:46Marc:But he was in, like, I did a little research.

00:18:49Marc:What'd you find out about me?

00:18:50Marc:Well, I mean, you just started your life overseas.

00:18:53Guest:Yeah.

00:18:53Yeah.

00:18:54Marc:But you have no recollection of that?

00:18:55Guest:Oh, not the first tour of duty.

00:18:57Guest:I was born there, and then we came back to the States.

00:18:59Guest:But we went again when I was in the third and the fourth grade.

00:19:01Guest:So what was your old man into?

00:19:03Guest:He was in the military.

00:19:05Guest:Right.

00:19:06Guest:He was a photographer.

00:19:07Guest:Huh.

00:19:09Guest:Third Armored Division Signal Corps.

00:19:11Guest:Huh.

00:19:12Guest:He was a photographer.

00:19:12Marc:So you have memories of going back there?

00:19:14Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:19:14Guest:I have memories of Germany of that second tour of duty, yeah, without question.

00:19:19Guest:It was really a pretty formative...

00:19:21Guest:Yeah.

00:19:22Marc:What happened there?

00:19:23Marc:Because now we've got the church.

00:19:25Marc:You've got the renegade priest.

00:19:27Marc:Yep.

00:19:30Marc:Who decided to give kids a sort of a spectrum of a worldview.

00:19:35Marc:Yep.

00:19:35Marc:And then Germany, you're on the base.

00:19:37Guest:Germany, but yes, but after a stint of what they called living on the economy.

00:19:45Guest:When we first got there, there was no room for us in the military housing.

00:19:49Guest:Right.

00:19:50Guest:And so we lived in an apartment in town, in Hanau.

00:19:53Guest:Right.

00:19:54Guest:One of the things I remember most about being in Germany as a kid was the awareness that this is different.

00:20:01Guest:The people are different.

00:20:02Guest:The language is different.

00:20:03Guest:The sounds are different.

00:20:04Guest:It's a brace of that language.

00:20:06Guest:It can be.

00:20:07Guest:I didn't really recognize that until much later in my life, how guttural and sort of unattractive to the ear it can be.

00:20:16Guest:But it was in another way.

00:20:19Guest:It was an awakening of the possibilities.

00:20:24Guest:That are out there.

00:20:25Marc:Right.

00:20:25Marc:It's like another world almost.

00:20:28Marc:Absolutely.

00:20:29Marc:And you'd been here.

00:20:30Marc:I'd been here.

00:20:31Marc:And how old were you when you went back there?

00:20:34Marc:Third and fourth grade.

00:20:35Marc:Oh, yes.

00:20:36Marc:Yeah.

00:20:37Marc:Nine, eight, nine, ten.

00:20:38Marc:And you're not living on base.

00:20:39Marc:Not at first.

00:20:40Marc:You're out in the world.

00:20:41Guest:Yes.

00:20:42Guest:And then when space opened up, then we moved into family housing.

00:20:48Marc:Wow.

00:20:48Marc:So like, you know, that's a very formative time trying to think about fourth grade.

00:20:53Marc:Yeah.

00:20:53Marc:I broke my leg.

00:20:54Marc:I remember that.

00:20:55Guest:Really?

00:20:55Marc:Yeah.

00:20:55Marc:I broke my leg in fourth grade.

00:20:57Marc:I remember skiing and I remember teachers and I remember things.

00:21:00Marc:Yeah.

00:21:01Marc:Yeah.

00:21:02Guest:I talk sometimes about my third grade teacher.

00:21:06Marc:Really?

00:21:06Marc:Mrs. Twiggs.

00:21:08Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:21:08Marc:How was that?

00:21:09Marc:In Germany?

00:21:10Guest:Yeah.

00:21:10Yeah.

00:21:10Guest:Hanau American Elementary School.

00:21:12Marc:Okay.

00:21:14Marc:And Mrs. Twiggs.

00:21:15Marc:Was she telling you about Kierkegaard too?

00:21:16Guest:No, she was not.

00:21:17Guest:No, no.

00:21:18Guest:She was not.

00:21:20Guest:She was more of a Heidegger person.

00:21:25Guest:She had to be because she was in Germany.

00:21:29Guest:On occasion, she would like after lunch to go to the teacher's lounge and make herself a cup of tea.

00:21:36Guest:Did Mrs. Twiggs.

00:21:38Guest:And when she did, she would put me in charge of the class.

00:21:40Guest:She would give me, put a book in my hand and have me read to the class until she got back.

00:21:45Marc:Oh, that's what did it.

00:21:46Guest:I was the best reader in the third grade.

00:21:49Marc:Yeah.

00:21:50Guest:And it was, seriously, it was the first time anyone outside of my family had acknowledged me for something that I did well.

00:21:59Guest:Huh.

00:22:00Guest:Right?

00:22:00Guest:Yeah.

00:22:01Marc:And that was powerful.

00:22:03Marc:Yeah.

00:22:03Marc:I mean, you made a life out of it.

00:22:05Guest:Apparently, I have.

00:22:07Marc:It was life changing.

00:22:08Guest:So she was, you know.

00:22:10Guest:She planted the seed.

00:22:11Guest:She did.

00:22:12Guest:She did.

00:22:12Guest:She was instrumental in me being who I am.

00:22:15Marc:Third grade is kind of like, I remember, for some reason, I had memorized all the presidents.

00:22:20Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:22:21Marc:And I stood in front of the class and I could say all the presidents in a row.

00:22:26Guest:That's impressive.

00:22:27Marc:Yeah, it was pretty good.

00:22:28Marc:Yeah.

00:22:28Marc:And I remember the only reason I was able, I was kind of obsessed with the presidents without knowing anything about them.

00:22:35Marc:I was very obsessed with old pictures of people.

00:22:38Marc:And I'd look at their pictures.

00:22:40Marc:I can remember what they all look like.

00:22:42Marc:Wow.

00:22:42Marc:Isn't that weird?

00:22:43Marc:It is.

00:22:43Marc:I don't know what they did.

00:22:45Marc:You know, but that didn't start till much later.

00:22:48Marc:Yeah.

00:22:48Marc:But I can remember, like, I know what William McKinley looks like.

00:22:52Marc:Looks like.

00:22:53Marc:James Garfield.

00:22:54Marc:Right.

00:22:54Marc:Rutherford B. Hayes, I can picture.

00:22:56Marc:Yeah.

00:22:56Marc:Taft.

00:22:58Marc:Madison.

00:22:59Marc:Yeah.

00:23:00Marc:They're all in my head.

00:23:01Marc:They are.

00:23:01Marc:Andrew Johnson, not a great guy.

00:23:03Guest:No, I'm like my least favorite ex, well, almost my least favorite ex-president.

00:23:09Marc:Uh-huh.

00:23:09Marc:Yeah.

00:23:10Marc:That number keeps growing.

00:23:11Marc:Yeah.

00:23:12Marc:Yeah.

00:23:12Marc:He was number one for a long time.

00:23:14Marc:Sure.

00:23:15Marc:I bet.

00:23:15Marc:Yeah.

00:23:16Marc:So, okay.

00:23:16Marc:So you're 13, you're at the seminary and that's when you quit, you say to your folks.

00:23:21Guest:I decided not to become a priest, but you know, then I was faced with, so what am I going to do now?

00:23:26Guest:At 13?

00:23:27Guest:It was 15, 16 when I decided not to become a priest.

00:23:31Marc:But didn't the celibacy thing play in?

00:23:34Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:23:34Guest:There were a lot of factors.

00:23:35Guest:Yeah.

00:23:36Marc:A lot of... But most of it was you couldn't buy into the Catholic worldview?

00:23:40Marc:Most of it.

00:23:41Guest:I think maybe sex and worldview, maybe 50-50.

00:23:44Marc:Yeah.

00:23:45Marc:Yeah.

00:23:45Marc:But Catholicism in and of itself is a pretty elaborate bit of business.

00:23:49Yeah.

00:23:49Guest:What really, one of the things I know that attracted me to Catholicism was the ceremony.

00:23:59Guest:Yeah, man.

00:23:59Guest:The ritual.

00:24:00Guest:Yeah.

00:24:01Guest:The pomp, the circumstance, the magic, right?

00:24:04Guest:It's all black magic.

00:24:05Guest:It is.

00:24:06Guest:Well, it's magic of a sword.

00:24:10Guest:I'm not sure what color it is.

00:24:12Guest:But it was amazing.

00:24:17Guest:I found great comfort and solace in the mystery and the magic.

00:24:27Marc:Yeah, man.

00:24:27Marc:I mean, have you been to Italy?

00:24:30Guest:Very much, yeah.

00:24:31Marc:So you go, I've noticed this, you go to any cathedral.

00:24:34Marc:Yes.

00:24:35Marc:And so much work was put into the massive presentation that, you know, any peasant who walked into a cathedral would have to just buckle, you know, hit their knees and be like, oh, my God.

00:24:48Guest:Those buildings, they are designed and manufactured specifically to put you in a state of destruction.

00:24:56Marc:Oh, yes.

00:24:58Marc:And there's and they're all full of dead wizards.

00:25:00Marc:True.

00:25:01Marc:A lot of dead wizards.

00:25:02Marc:It's like when you go to Rome and stuff, you realize like, you know, there have been popes.

00:25:07Marc:Yep.

00:25:08Marc:Forever.

00:25:08Marc:There's hundreds and hundreds of popes that are down there.

00:25:11Marc:Yeah.

00:25:12Marc:Yeah.

00:25:12Marc:Or there's pieces of them spread around.

00:25:14Marc:Sometimes you get a finger.

00:25:15Marc:They call them relics.

00:25:16Marc:The relics.

00:25:16Marc:The relics, yeah.

00:25:17Marc:The relic racket.

00:25:18Guest:Yeah, right?

00:25:19Guest:No, totally.

00:25:20Guest:No, there's a lot that I don't feel bad about having walked away from.

00:25:30Guest:St.

00:25:30Guest:Catherine's Head.

00:25:31Marc:Is in one of them.

00:25:33Marc:Is that right?

00:25:33Marc:I think in Siena.

00:25:35Marc:I remember that one because I got a postcard of it.

00:25:38Marc:But I read about, I remember reading about that there was sort of a relics racket where there was a lot of, like, you know, not authentic bits and pieces of saints.

00:25:47Guest:It's what human beings do.

00:25:49Guest:We pervert everything.

00:25:52Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:25:53Guest:It's in our nature.

00:25:54Marc:Yeah, the grift.

00:25:55Marc:The grift.

00:25:57Marc:It's as old as DNA.

00:25:59Marc:Yeah.

00:25:59Marc:It is kind of, right?

00:26:00Marc:It is.

00:26:02Marc:So why acting?

00:26:04Marc:How did that sort of at 15?

00:26:06Guest:So at St.

00:26:07Guest:Pius, there I was standing in the bathroom mirror.

00:26:10Guest:I'm one of those people for whom a lot of important life decisions are made in the bathroom.

00:26:16Guest:Yeah.

00:26:17Guest:This was the beginning of that journey for me.

00:26:19Marc:Are you wearing an outfit?

00:26:21Marc:No.

00:26:22Guest:A seminary uniform or something?

00:26:23Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:26:24Marc:All right.

00:26:25Marc:You're just in the bathroom at the seminary.

00:26:26Guest:I was...

00:26:27Guest:I was taking stock of my life and its direction, given that I had just decided not to do the thing that I was pointed towards for several years.

00:26:43Guest:And I had discovered theater arts.

00:26:46Guest:I had found my tribe.

00:26:47Marc:At seminary?

00:26:48Marc:At St.

00:26:48Marc:Pius, yeah.

00:26:49Marc:Oh, so you were doing that?

00:26:50Guest:We had a very, very robust theater program.

00:26:54Marc:Really?

00:26:55Guest:Yeah.

00:26:56Marc:And what kind of stuff were you doing?

00:26:59Marc:Well, first, my first role— Did that one priest oversee the theater program?

00:27:02Guest:He was, yeah.

00:27:04Guest:But see, that's the thing.

00:27:05Guest:He wasn't a priest.

00:27:06Guest:He wasn't a brother.

00:27:07Guest:He was a layman, and he had graduated from Berkeley.

00:27:10Guest:So he was like—and he was young.

00:27:12Guest:I mean, he was young.

00:27:13Guest:He was a young guy.

00:27:14Guest:Right.

00:27:14Marc:Right.

00:27:15Guest:Right.

00:27:15Guest:And he was bursting with all of this energy and enthusiasm and all of these ideas.

00:27:20Marc:And so he was the theater guy, too.

00:27:21Marc:He was.

00:27:22Marc:So did he have you doing like Beckett?

00:27:24Marc:I did Murder in the Cathedral.

00:27:27Marc:At seminary.

00:27:27Guest:At seminary.

00:27:28Marc:What is that about?

00:27:29Guest:It's the story of a night of St.

00:27:34Guest:Thomas Moore's life.

00:27:36Guest:He's visited by three tempters.

00:27:39Guest:There is, at the beginning of the second act, he gives a Christmas sermon.

00:27:44Guest:And I will never forget, we did a performance in the cathedral in Sacramento, downtown Sacramento.

00:27:50Guest:And at the beginning, he says, and everybody in the church made the sign of the cross.

00:27:58Guest:And I thought, oh, my God.

00:28:02Guest:Wow.

00:28:03Marc:The power.

00:28:03Guest:That's power.

00:28:04Guest:Yeah.

00:28:06Guest:I was like, OK.

00:28:07Marc:Did they like the production?

00:28:08Marc:Yeah.

00:28:09Marc:Yeah, they did.

00:28:10Marc:But they weren't going to mess with the rules.

00:28:13Marc:You say that in a church.

00:28:14Guest:It was sort of an autonomic response that they had.

00:28:17Guest:And I was like, okay.

00:28:19Marc:Yeah.

00:28:19Marc:Right?

00:28:20Marc:Well, I'm glad you said, okay, you know, I can be an actor as opposed to, okay, anybody can be a priest.

00:28:25Marc:You just have to say the stuff.

00:28:27Guest:Well, I guess that could have been a takeaway, but I went in the other direction.

00:28:30Marc:How's your Latin?

00:28:31Marc:Sounded pretty good.

00:28:32Guest:It used to be much better.

00:28:34Marc:Did you understand it?

00:28:36Guest:Yeah.

00:28:37Yeah.

00:28:37Marc:Because I always thought that was an obstacle to Catholicism was the Latin.

00:28:40Marc:Well, I mean, I, you know, coming up a Jew, the Hebrew, we learned how to read it, but I couldn't understand it.

00:28:46Marc:I think Latin's a little easier to understand because a lot of that stuff is a foundation of words.

00:28:51Guest:It's a foundation of words.

00:28:52Guest:It's, you know, it's, it's, you know, I'm from California.

00:28:55Guest:So, you know, if you don't know a little Spanish, which is based on Latin, then you're pretty much in trouble.

00:29:00Marc:How's your Spanish?

00:29:01Guest:My Spanish is better than my Latin.

00:29:02Marc:Yeah?

00:29:03Marc:Yeah.

00:29:03Yeah.

00:29:03Marc:Okay, so you do the acting at seminary.

00:29:07Guest:Yep, right?

00:29:09Marc:Now, is this teacher still around?

00:29:11Marc:Lee Bartlett?

00:29:11Guest:He is.

00:29:12Guest:Oh, he is?

00:29:12Marc:He is.

00:29:13Guest:He is.

00:29:14Guest:Oh, no shit.

00:29:15Guest:Yeah.

00:29:16Guest:We are in communication.

00:29:19Marc:Really?

00:29:19Marc:Yeah.

00:29:20Marc:So you were able to share a little gratitude?

00:29:26Guest:Lee Bartlett knows the impact that he had on my life.

00:29:30Marc:Yeah.

00:29:32Marc:He does.

00:29:34Marc:Yeah.

00:29:35Marc:Okay.

00:29:35Marc:He does.

00:29:36Marc:Is he all right?

00:29:37Guest:Yeah.

00:29:38Guest:Okay.

00:29:40Marc:Why do you ask?

00:29:41Marc:Because you're saying it in kind of a weird way.

00:29:42Guest:Oh, like he's about to die?

00:29:44Marc:Or that like, you know, that's enough said.

00:29:46Guest:Ah, no.

00:29:47Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all.

00:29:50Guest:No, the man was tremendously influential and is almost single-handedly the reason I became an actor.

00:29:58Guest:Him and Sidney Poitier.

00:30:00Marc:Yeah, and we can't forget Miss Twig.

00:30:04Marc:Mrs. Twig.

00:30:05Marc:My third grade teacher.

00:30:06Marc:For the reading.

00:30:07Marc:She's on the team too.

00:30:08Marc:And performative.

00:30:09Marc:That was a performance as well.

00:30:11Marc:It's all tying together.

00:30:12Marc:You've made all these connections before.

00:30:15Marc:Not with you.

00:30:19Marc:All right.

00:30:20Marc:So where do you go after the white light, the cathartic experience of realizing that acting was the trip?

00:30:28Guest:I won a full scholarship to study theater at the University of Southern California here in Los Angeles.

00:30:35Guest:USC?

00:30:37Marc:What year was that?

00:30:37Marc:1974.

00:30:40Marc:See, that's what's interesting about When You Were Living is that, like, because I noticed that some of the credits, you know, after Roots were, you know, these shows that, you know, was kind of processing a lot of actors at the time of all generations.

00:30:52Marc:You mean Love Boat?

00:30:54Marc:Well, yeah.

00:30:55Marc:But they were around.

00:30:56Marc:Yeah.

00:30:57Marc:But they were around, you know, there was that, I'm kind of fascinated with that, the 70s in that there was that old guard who was just really the first generation of movie stars to age out.

00:31:06Marc:That's right.

00:31:08Marc:But they were still around.

00:31:09Marc:They were.

00:31:10Marc:Yeah.

00:31:10Marc:And they were doing TV.

00:31:11Marc:Right.

00:31:12Marc:And like these young guys like yourself and other people, even the, you know, the Nicholsons and the Hoppers and stuff, you know, we're sort of like there always seemed to be a reverence for those that old generation.

00:31:24Marc:I think so.

00:31:25Marc:Yeah.

00:31:26Marc:So you're here at USC.

00:31:28Marc:Studying theater.

00:31:29Marc:With who?

00:31:29Marc:Do you remember?

00:31:30Guest:My acting teacher was Mary Carver.

00:31:33Marc:And who was in the class?

00:31:34Marc:Anybody we know?

00:31:35Guest:In my BFA class, no, but I did main stages with the likes of Andy Tennant, Madeline Smith, who played opposite Travolta in Urban Cowboy.

00:31:49Guest:Yeah, there were some notables that were around at the same time.

00:31:53Marc:And you were living in L.A.

00:31:55Marc:then?

00:31:55Marc:I was, yeah.

00:31:57Marc:So that's another, I would imagine, mind-opening experience.

00:32:00Marc:Yeah.

00:32:00Guest:moving to los angeles well yeah i mean did you move for college is that i did okay so you're here yeah and i came out of a fairly cloistered environment small literally the seminary yeah and to you know to yeah the campus of usc yeah it was and what what was that like it was like it was it was it was a bit overwhelming

00:32:21Guest:Yeah.

00:32:21Guest:It was huge.

00:32:23Guest:And there were, you know, women everywhere.

00:32:25Marc:Yeah.

00:32:26Marc:It was.

00:32:27Marc:Yeah.

00:32:27Marc:And it was 74.

00:32:28Marc:Yeah.

00:32:28Marc:So that's post 60s where the politics are actually removed from the equation.

00:32:32Marc:It was just sex.

00:32:34Guest:Right.

00:32:35Guest:Right.

00:32:37Marc:Yeah.

00:32:37Guest:And then as a sophomore, that's when I auditioned for Roots.

00:32:41Marc:So you auditioned for that.

00:32:41Marc:How you're like 19?

00:32:42Marc:I was 19.

00:32:44Marc:Yeah.

00:32:44Marc:And you got it?

00:32:46Marc:I did.

00:32:47Marc:My first professional audition.

00:32:48Marc:What was that process?

00:32:50Marc:I mean, was it like right away?

00:32:52Guest:No, it was drawn out and protracted.

00:32:55Guest:Yeah.

00:32:56Marc:That's a big part.

00:32:57Guest:It was.

00:32:58Guest:And they were very, they were all, the executives, I mean, they were all nervous about casting the kid who had no previous professional experience.

00:33:10Guest:It was a risk.

00:33:12Guest:It was a risk.

00:33:16Guest:But, you know, I kept hanging around in the cuts in the competition.

00:33:22Guest:March 23rd, 1976, I was screen tested.

00:33:28Guest:And then that screen test went back and forth from the offices of ABC, the executives in New York and Los Angeles.

00:33:34Guest:They sort of batted it back and forth.

00:33:35Guest:And like I said, nobody wanted to make the decision.

00:33:38Marc:Were they all aware at that time of the weight of the thing?

00:33:41Marc:Of like getting that – Getting it right?

00:33:45Guest:Well, I mean getting it right.

00:33:47Guest:Or getting it on the – putting it on the air at all.

00:33:48Guest:All of it.

00:33:50Guest:You know –

00:33:52Marc:I don't know if you would have known.

00:33:54Guest:I don't know what you mean by aware.

00:33:58Guest:Because there's not a lot of consciousness coming from white men in executive suites.

00:34:02Guest:That's what I mean.

00:34:03Guest:At networks in the mid-70s.

00:34:05Guest:Right.

00:34:05Marc:But somebody must have been championing this very specific story.

00:34:10Guest:They did recognize the unique nature of what Alex Haley was able to do.

00:34:18Guest:And they recognized his value as a storyteller.

00:34:22Guest:The man was absolutely mesmerizing as a storyteller.

00:34:26Guest:Spent time with him?

00:34:27Guest:A lot.

00:34:29Guest:A lot.

00:34:29Guest:Yeah.

00:34:31Guest:And so they bought it, but they didn't trust it, right?

00:34:37Guest:They didn't trust that America would embrace it.

00:34:41Guest:One of the brilliant things about David Wolper, the man who executive produced Roots, was he hired all of America's favorite TV dads to be villains in Roots.

00:34:52Guest:They were all slave owners.

00:34:54Guest:Lorne Green, Papa Cartwright.

00:34:57Guest:There was Chuck Connors, the rifleman.

00:35:00Guest:Lloyd Bridges.

00:35:01Guest:Oh, Robert Reed, Papa Brady.

00:35:04Guest:He was a slave owner.

00:35:05Guest:I mean, Ed Asner.

00:35:07Guest:All of those guys were in roots as villains, slave ship captains and slave owners.

00:35:13Guest:And so it lowered the barrier of entry.

00:35:15Guest:But they still weren't certain that, you know, how's it going to play in Peoria?

00:35:19Guest:That's sure.

00:35:20Marc:And also, like, how are people going to respond to those guys being that?

00:35:26Marc:Well, that's kind of interesting and weirdly loaded.

00:35:29Yeah.

00:35:29Guest:It was a real smart move as a producer.

00:35:34Marc:Brilliant, I believe.

00:35:35Marc:You think that it was to bring eyes to it?

00:35:38Guest:Sure.

00:35:40Guest:Absolutely.

00:35:41Guest:It was to bring eyes to it.

00:35:43Guest:Absolutely.

00:35:44Marc:And also there's some sort of weird kind of subtext of taking responsibility somehow.

00:35:51Marc:I don't think that was on their minds at all, Mark.

00:35:53Marc:I think they were the right skin color for the parts.

00:35:55Marc:And they were actors and they were the right age group.

00:35:58Guest:Yeah.

00:35:59Guest:And they had TVQ, right?

00:36:01Guest:They were popular.

00:36:02Guest:They were some of the most popular actors on TV.

00:36:04Marc:Huh.

00:36:05Marc:Yeah, man.

00:36:07Marc:So, I mean, 100 million people watch that thing.

00:36:09Marc:Yeah.

00:36:10Marc:How many episodes was it?

00:36:11Guest:It was 12 hours.

00:36:14Marc:Yeah.

00:36:14Guest:Over eight consecutive nights.

00:36:15Marc:I mean, I was like, how old was I?

00:36:17Marc:77, 63, 73.

00:36:19Marc:I was like 13, 14.

00:36:22Marc:And I remember it.

00:36:23Marc:It was the first time I think any of us.

00:36:26Marc:Yeah.

00:36:26Yeah.

00:36:27Marc:We're exposed to at least that version of the reality of slavery.

00:36:34Marc:That goes for the whole country.

00:36:35Marc:Right.

00:36:35Guest:Yeah.

00:36:36Guest:It was the first time we had ever experienced the story of the enslavement of black people in America from the point of view of the Africans.

00:36:44Marc:And do you remember...

00:36:47Marc:For yourself, you know, after it aired, you know, where did that put you culturally?

00:36:53Marc:I mean, like within the black community as an actor and as somebody I would imagine who got questions.

00:37:00Marc:What was that experience?

00:37:02Guest:It really jump-started my desire to figure myself out.

00:37:11Guest:The phenomenon of becoming famous was a great impetus.

00:37:18Marc:And I have to assume that a lot of it was relatively, in terms of detail, new to you.

00:37:25Guest:All of it was new to me.

00:37:27Guest:I'm a kid from Sacramento, California.

00:37:29Marc:No, but I mean just the story of Roots.

00:37:31Guest:Oh, yes.

00:37:32Guest:It was not unknown, but it was new to me on that level, that viscerally.

00:37:40Guest:I felt like from the very first time I saw the first sides, my first audition, Lynn Stonemaster, legendary Lynn Stonemaster casting agent,

00:37:51Guest:Cast roots.

00:37:52Guest:And I remember going to his office and looking at the pages and thinking, I know who this kid is.

00:37:58Guest:Yeah.

00:37:58Guest:I know who he is.

00:37:59Guest:Oh, really?

00:37:59Guest:I'd never been to Africa.

00:38:01Guest:Sure.

00:38:01Guest:But I knew who this kid was.

00:38:03Marc:Right.

00:38:04Marc:I knew... Genetic memory of some kind.

00:38:10Guest:I tell a story about that very thing because I believe very much in that concept of genetic memory.

00:38:19Guest:Night before we started shooting scenes in the hold of the ship, Alex Haley brought a galley's copy of the novel.

00:38:27Guest:He put a bookmark where the middle passage began.

00:38:31Guest:And I stayed up all night reading, reading, reading, reading.

00:38:34Guest:Yeah.

00:38:35Yeah.

00:38:35Guest:We shot in this set.

00:38:37Guest:They built in a warehouse.

00:38:39Guest:They built the interior of the hold of this ship.

00:38:42Guest:And we shot for three days in this set.

00:38:45Guest:And I remember the first day pretty well.

00:38:48Guest:And I remember being done.

00:38:50Guest:I remember the last day.

00:38:53Guest:But there's time I am missing.

00:38:55Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:38:56Guest:And my explanation for that is that the ancestors came in and protected my psyche while I engaged in some really deep genetic memory work.

00:39:13Marc:Yeah.

00:39:14Marc:Yeah.

00:39:15Marc:So that's sort of a, it's a spiritual experience.

00:39:20Yeah.

00:39:21Marc:Acting is for me.

00:39:23Marc:Yeah.

00:39:25Marc:And so they protected you.

00:39:29Marc:I believe that to be true.

00:39:31Marc:From losing yourself in the horror.

00:39:33Marc:From losing my mind in the horror.

00:39:36Marc:Yeah.

00:39:37Marc:Have you had any experience of that late again?

00:39:40Guest:Not that deep.

00:39:42Guest:Yeah.

00:39:42Guest:Not, not, not, not to the point where I don't recall time.

00:39:49Marc:Yeah.

00:39:49Marc:Wild man.

00:39:51Marc:And then that – like everybody – Kunta Kinte became this cultural touch point.

00:39:59Marc:Like that – he heard it everywhere.

00:40:01Marc:Globally.

00:40:01Guest:Yeah.

00:40:03Guest:A real symbol of freedom and the indomitability of the human spirit.

00:40:07Marc:And your license plate?

00:40:09Guest:OG Kunta.

00:40:12Guest:It would have been just Kunta, but I had that on a car before that got totaled and the lapse was so... I could have kept it, but I would have had to pay the registration for like 20 years worth of registering it.

00:40:27Guest:So I just went with another combination of letters.

00:40:30Marc:So you're this kid from Sacramento, and now you enter, I would imagine, I mean, everyone knew you were an actor, but you had to have entered the broader cultural conversation about race at the time.

00:40:43Marc:Were you put in positions that you were uncomfortable with or presented?

00:40:49Marc:Yes, I was.

00:40:50Guest:And I grew much more comfortable with them over time.

00:40:53Guest:The more I...

00:40:55Guest:came comfortable with myself, the easier it was to have conversations that are challenging.

00:41:03Marc:Because I imagine people are asking you questions that you did not know the answers to or have the answers to.

00:41:08Marc:Or have the answers to.

00:41:09Marc:Sure.

00:41:09Marc:Right.

00:41:09Marc:Hadn't really thought about the answers.

00:41:12Marc:Yeah.

00:41:12Marc:But you had to kind of get up to speed with your own identity?

00:41:15Marc:With my own identity.

00:41:19Guest:And having been...

00:41:21Guest:The raisin and the oatmeal in most of my childhood situations, right?

00:41:26Guest:The only black kid in Boy Scouts or in, you know, my class.

00:41:31Guest:You know, I hadn't found my identity as a black person yet.

00:41:39Guest:I feel like there's a link between you look at the end of the Civil War and Reconstruction and then the migration of black populations from the south to the north and then to the west.

00:41:56Guest:My family is part of that westward migration.

00:41:59Guest:Civil rights movement in the 60s.

00:42:02Guest:Roots in the 70s.

00:42:03Guest:Barack Obama gets elected president.

00:42:05Guest:In the 2000s, right?

00:42:06Guest:Yeah.

00:42:07Guest:You remove one of those links from that chain and it all falls apart.

00:42:10Marc:Right.

00:42:11Marc:And now we're going back to the Civil War.

00:42:12Guest:Now we're going.

00:42:13Guest:We're going.

00:42:14Guest:We are.

00:42:16Guest:Yeah, we are regressing.

00:42:17Marc:Yeah.

00:42:17Marc:No question about it.

00:42:19Marc:Right.

00:42:19Marc:Well, yeah, that's the natural arc.

00:42:21Marc:So like after what were the first sort of.

00:42:24Marc:How were you piecing together your identity as a person, as an actor?

00:42:27Marc:I mean, because that was a big role.

00:42:30Guest:Yeah.

00:42:31Marc:And it had a personal impact.

00:42:32Marc:You engaged the ancient spirits.

00:42:37Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:42:37Marc:And now you just had to be a guy in Hollywood.

00:42:39Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:42:40Marc:So what was the sort of evolution?

00:42:44Marc:Struggle.

00:42:45Guest:There's struggle.

00:42:46Guest:Highs and lows, ups and downs.

00:42:47Guest:But I reached a point where I didn't want the highs necessarily, and I certainly didn't want the lows.

00:42:56Guest:Right.

00:42:56Guest:Yeah.

00:42:59Guest:And I didn't know exactly what I wanted, but I didn't want the volatility.

00:43:05Right.

00:43:05Marc:Well, it's interesting because you were really kind of like – it was this – like you said, it had this global impact.

00:43:15Marc:And you were at the core of this story as an actor.

00:43:21Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:43:21Marc:And, you know, you sort of filled in this tremendous gap viscerally for certainly this country's white people and black people to a degree.

00:43:33Marc:And then you just, you know, next up you're like auditioning for television shows.

00:43:38Marc:Right.

00:43:39Marc:Remember, you did a movie with Steve McQueen.

00:43:41Marc:I did.

00:43:42Marc:His last movie?

00:43:43Marc:Yeah.

00:43:44Yeah.

00:43:44Marc:What was that guy like?

00:43:45Marc:He was awesome.

00:43:46Marc:Yeah?

00:43:47Marc:Yeah.

00:43:47Guest:He really was awesome.

00:43:49Guest:He was really good to me.

00:43:51Marc:Yeah?

00:43:51Marc:Yeah.

00:43:52Marc:And so, as an actor, are you training with still?

00:43:57Marc:Or are you just, after Roots, did you continue studying?

00:44:01Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:44:01Guest:I did continue studying.

00:44:04Guest:I...

00:44:05Guest:I recognized at some point that I needed to continue my study.

00:44:08Marc:Yeah.

00:44:09Guest:You know, I was in a four-year program, conservatory program at USC.

00:44:12Guest:Yeah.

00:44:13Guest:And that was, you know, I left halfway through.

00:44:16Guest:Because of the casting.

00:44:17Guest:Because of Roots.

00:44:17Guest:Yeah.

00:44:19Guest:And I was, you know, I was absolutely willing and ready to go on the ride wherever it took me.

00:44:25Guest:Yeah.

00:44:26Guest:And I recognized at one point that, yeah, I really need to be in class.

00:44:31Yeah.

00:44:31Marc:How long did it take for people to stop saying Kunta Kinte?

00:44:36Guest:Well, it took a minute.

00:44:46Guest:But I didn't necessarily consider that a bad thing.

00:44:50Marc:No, it was a bad thing.

00:44:52Marc:But it's a rare thing where something is so impactful that you just do whatever those episodes were.

00:44:59Guest:It's not a whole series.

00:45:00Guest:I was in it for two episodes.

00:45:02Marc:Two episodes, and you're that guy for decades.

00:45:05Marc:For life.

00:45:06Guest:No, really, for life.

00:45:07Guest:Because I have since really embraced Kunta.

00:45:14Guest:For a minute in my early career, he was an obstacle, right?

00:45:21Guest:Because that's all people saw, right?

00:45:24Marc:It's wild, man.

00:45:25Guest:But at a point in my process, I was able to really turn around and embrace him.

00:45:31Guest:That's an ally.

00:45:33Guest:And so I feel much, much, much better.

00:45:37Marc:Well, that's intense, man.

00:45:39Marc:You know, because usually that happens if you've been on a series, you know, for four or five seasons.

00:45:45Marc:But you were that guy.

00:45:46Guest:For four hours.

00:45:47Guest:For four hours of television time.

00:45:50Yeah.

00:45:50Marc:Yeah.

00:45:51Marc:So there was periods, did you ever think it was like, why did I do that?

00:45:55Guest:No, I never thought that.

00:45:57Marc:Yeah.

00:45:57Guest:I never thought that.

00:45:59Guest:I've always seen Ruth's as a major blessing in my life.

00:46:04Guest:What'd you learn from Alex Haley?

00:46:08Guest:The importance of authenticity.

00:46:11Guest:Alex was one of the most authentic people I've ever met.

00:46:15Guest:And when I say that, what I mean is that, you know, when you were in his presence, he was laser focused on you.

00:46:23Guest:He wasn't looking over your shoulder to see who more important maybe walked in the room, right?

00:46:28Guest:He was very, very humble and master, master storyteller.

00:46:36Marc:Yeah, clearly.

00:46:37Marc:Yeah.

00:46:38Marc:When did you feel that you had sort of moved on past it as an actor?

00:46:45Marc:Roots?

00:46:45Marc:Yeah.

00:46:46Guest:Well, I don't think I've ever really considered it important to move past it.

00:46:53Marc:I mean, just that where you were free to do other things.

00:46:55Guest:Yeah, I think for me, the image is to expand large enough to include that too.

00:47:01Guest:Sure.

00:47:01Guest:Right?

00:47:01Guest:Yeah.

00:47:04Yeah.

00:47:04Guest:I guess I was in my 40s.

00:47:09Guest:Oh, really?

00:47:09Guest:Yeah.

00:47:10Guest:Yeah.

00:47:11Guest:Yeah.

00:47:12Guest:Because you've got to understand, Mark, when Roots came out,

00:47:16Guest:There was no monolithic response to it.

00:47:19Guest:Especially in the black community.

00:47:23Marc:What do you mean?

00:47:24Marc:No monolithic response.

00:47:27Guest:There was a large section of the black community that was embarrassed by Roots because it depicted us in our period of enslavement.

00:47:37Guest:And that's all we had been fed in...

00:47:42Guest:in terms of media representation in film and in television.

00:47:49Guest:Because of the nature of this culture, black people were always depicted in a less than subservient way to white culture.

00:48:00Guest:And it was a painful reminder for some.

00:48:04Guest:Of that reality.

00:48:06Marc:It's interesting because it goes before this sort of representation of post-Civil War blacks as subservient.

00:48:16Marc:It's like it's the origin story.

00:48:18Marc:It is the origin story.

00:48:20Marc:Of American...

00:48:21Guest:But again, looking at the post-Civil War story, that didn't turn out well.

00:48:27Guest:There was a period in Reconstruction where we were doing really, really well.

00:48:33Guest:But that was taken away.

00:48:37Marc:Right.

00:48:37Marc:It's interesting because it's not the characterization of black people as racial stereotypes.

00:48:48Marc:It preexisted that.

00:48:49Guest:It preexisted that.

00:48:50Marc:And yet that was still sensitive.

00:48:51Guest:But what it did portray was that being black in America is fucking hard.

00:48:59Guest:It ain't easy.

00:48:59Guest:It's not for the weak.

00:49:00Marc:Right.

00:49:01Marc:Yeah.

00:49:03Marc:So you felt that?

00:49:04Marc:Yeah.

00:49:05Marc:Yeah.

00:49:05Marc:There was the question with some parts of the black community, like, why'd you do that?

00:49:09Guest:Or why do we always have to be represented that way?

00:49:13Guest:Right.

00:49:13Guest:And Kunta was absolutely emblematic, even though...

00:49:17Guest:He himself had a warrior's identity and never wanted to submit to that dynamic.

00:49:24Guest:Yeah.

00:49:25Guest:Right?

00:49:25Guest:Yeah.

00:49:26Guest:That's why he kept saying, my name is Kunta.

00:49:30Guest:Yeah.

00:49:30Guest:Right?

00:49:31Guest:Yes.

00:49:31Guest:He wouldn't answer to Toby.

00:49:32Guest:Yes.

00:49:33Guest:Yes.

00:49:34Guest:He was Kunta.

00:49:35Guest:Yes.

00:49:35Guest:He knew who he was.

00:49:36Guest:Right.

00:49:37Guest:Right?

00:49:37Guest:Yeah.

00:49:38Guest:So, you know, shit's complex.

00:49:41Marc:Yeah.

00:49:42Marc:Still complex.

00:49:43Marc:Yeah.

00:49:43Marc:So what's the next role where you were like, you felt like I, you know, I did, like I met, like was the, are those, were those shows fun though?

00:49:51Marc:Like The Love Boat and Fantasy Island.

00:49:57Guest:Who were you on there?

00:49:58Guest:Wait, Fantasy Island,

00:50:01Guest:Sammy Davis Jr.

00:50:02Guest:played my father.

00:50:03Guest:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:50:05Guest:That blew my mind.

00:50:06Guest:That was like, are you kidding me?

00:50:09Guest:First time I met Sammy Davis Jr.

00:50:10Guest:was backstage at The Tonight Show.

00:50:12Guest:He wanted to give me suits.

00:50:13Guest:He wanted to give me suits, right?

00:50:15Guest:I was like a waif.

00:50:16Guest:I was still a student at USC.

00:50:19Guest:I wish I had said yes to Sammy Davis Jr.

00:50:23Guest:wanting to give me suits because I would have those suits today.

00:50:25Marc:Yeah, you'd have the Sammy suits.

00:50:26Guest:I would have Sammy suits.

00:50:28Guest:Yeah.

00:50:29Guest:I'm a black man of a certain age.

00:50:32Guest:Sammy Davis Jr.

00:50:34Guest:is in the pantheon of black people.

00:50:37Guest:Yeah.

00:50:37Guest:Was he fun?

00:50:38Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:50:40Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:50:41Guest:He invited us all to come up to his house.

00:50:44Guest:And I didn't go.

00:50:45Guest:Hmm.

00:50:47Guest:Imposter syndrome is real.

00:50:51Guest:I didn't feel worthy.

00:50:52Guest:Oh, wow.

00:50:53Guest:I didn't feel worthy.

00:50:54Guest:Huh.

00:50:55Guest:That happened a lot in the early days.

00:50:56Guest:Yeah?

00:50:57Guest:Yeah.

00:50:57Guest:I'd meet people and they would embrace me and, you know, and I just, I couldn't trust it.

00:51:03Marc:Got regrets about that?

00:51:04Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:51:05Marc:Yeah.

00:51:06Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:51:06Marc:Who else did you meet that you felt like you could have done a better job at it?

00:51:12Marc:B.B.

00:51:12Marc:King.

00:51:13Marc:Oh.

00:51:13Marc:George Benson.

00:51:15Marc:Pryor?

00:51:15Guest:Did you ever meet Pryor?

00:51:17Marc:Yeah, I did.

00:51:18Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:51:19Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:51:20Guest:He didn't invite me to his house, but.

00:51:21Marc:That's probably better off.

00:51:22Marc:He might not have ever gotten out.

00:51:24Yeah.

00:51:25Marc:Might have left with a big problem.

00:51:32Marc:Probably the best thing you ever did was not go to Richard's house.

00:51:36Marc:There might have been guns and coke involved.

00:51:38Marc:I'm sure there were guns and coke involved.

00:51:43Marc:What a great time, though, I would imagine.

00:51:45Guest:You know, it...

00:51:46Guest:And again, I survived it.

00:51:49Guest:You know, I survived.

00:51:50Guest:And I'm really happy that I did.

00:51:55Guest:People would come up to me and say, you know, LaVar, you're such a good kid.

00:51:57Guest:You're a nice kid.

00:51:58Guest:Don't change.

00:51:59Guest:Right.

00:51:59Guest:Don't change.

00:52:00Guest:Yeah.

00:52:00Guest:And yet I felt myself going through all of these changes and being a people-pleasing person.

00:52:05Guest:I didn't want to disappoint anybody.

00:52:06Guest:Right.

00:52:06Guest:But it put me in conflict with the journey that I was on.

00:52:08Guest:Huh.

00:52:09Guest:Right?

00:52:09Guest:Yeah.

00:52:11Yeah.

00:52:11Guest:What?

00:52:12Guest:Being a human being, it sucks.

00:52:15Marc:Well, I mean, you felt that you had opportunities that would have compromised your integrity as a person.

00:52:21Marc:I mean, did you wrestle with that stuff?

00:52:23Marc:Did you find that, you know, in terms of casting, in terms of choices you were making, that, you know, you were being minimized somehow?

00:52:31Marc:I mean, after you played Kunta Kinte, were there roles where you're like, I can't do this?

00:52:35Guest:No.

00:52:36Guest:Well, I won't do this as opposed to I can't.

00:52:39Guest:Right, right, right.

00:52:40Guest:Yeah, that's what I mean.

00:52:43Guest:But there were also, the flip side of that was there was a period in my career where I felt like it was an imposition to audition.

00:52:55Marc:What do you mean?

00:52:56Guest:Like I'm LeVar Burton.

00:52:58Marc:Oh, really?

00:53:00Marc:That was the big-headed period?

00:53:02Marc:The big-headed period.

00:53:03Marc:Oh.

00:53:03Guest:That was the big-headed period.

00:53:05Marc:You know who I am.

00:53:07Marc:Yeah.

00:53:07Marc:Right?

00:53:07Marc:How'd that go for you?

00:53:08Guest:Not well.

00:53:10Guest:Surprisingly, not well.

00:53:14Marc:Yeah, you got on the fuck that kid list.

00:53:16Guest:Yeah, right?

00:53:17Marc:Yeah.

00:53:19Marc:So do you think it hobbled you?

00:53:22Marc:You seem to have kind of stayed steady working for a long time.

00:53:26Guest:I've managed to stay busy and active because, A, I've been lucky and blessed and I've worked my ass off.

00:53:36Marc:Well, I mean, during all this period, it's interesting, though, because if you look at the credits, the TV credits and stuff, after Roots, whether it was your ego or not, you were just being moved through TV shows.

00:53:48Guest:Yes.

00:53:49Guest:Right.

00:53:50Guest:I did TV movies.

00:53:51Guest:Yeah.

00:53:52Guest:You know, starred in TV movies.

00:53:54Guest:Yeah.

00:53:56Guest:And some episodic.

00:53:57Marc:Right.

00:53:58Marc:So, like, after this monumental thing, you're just another actor.

00:54:02Marc:Right.

00:54:03Marc:Doing the thing.

00:54:04Marc:Meeting Sammy.

00:54:05Marc:But that's good.

00:54:06Marc:Yeah.

00:54:06Marc:And then Star Trek eventually comes along.

00:54:09Marc:And that's like – the whole idea of that, you know, you can't even attach it to race to a certain degree, you know, to be in that landscape.

00:54:18Marc:Right.

00:54:19Marc:It's science fiction.

00:54:20Marc:It's science fiction.

00:54:21Guest:However, it was –

00:54:24Guest:And it was absolutely clear to me in how much I wanted Star Trek, how much that show had influenced me growing up.

00:54:34Marc:What, you mean when it came up and you were auditioning for it?

00:54:37Guest:No, when it came on TV.

00:54:38Marc:No, but I mean like you knew when you auditioned for it that you wanted it.

00:54:41Guest:Oh, I wanted Star Trek as much as I'd wanted anything since Kunta.

00:54:46Guest:I wanted it more than I'd wanted anything since Kunta.

00:54:50Marc:It played a big part in your childhood?

00:54:52Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:54:53Marc:You were a Star Trek kid.

00:54:54Guest:Seeing Nichelle Nichols on the bridge of that ship meant that when the future came, there was a place for me.

00:55:00Guest:Yeah?

00:55:01Guest:Yeah.

00:55:02Guest:Yeah.

00:55:03Marc:She made it.

00:55:04Guest:She did.

00:55:05Marc:Yeah.

00:55:05Guest:And Gene Roddenberry is the creator.

00:55:07Guest:Yeah.

00:55:07Guest:So when I was asked if I was interested in coming in and auditioning, I was...

00:55:14Guest:Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:16Guest:Do I get to meet Gene?

00:55:18Guest:Did you?

00:55:19Guest:I did.

00:55:19Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:55:20Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:55:21Guest:Gene, Alex Haley, Gene Roddenberry, and Fred Rogers.

00:55:25Guest:Those three men are my storytelling mentors.

00:55:27Marc:Sure.

00:55:28Marc:Right?

00:55:28Marc:For very different reasons.

00:55:30Guest:For very different reasons and from different genres of storytelling.

00:55:33Marc:What did Roddenberry impress upon you?

00:55:37Guest:All of our heroes are human.

00:55:40Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:55:42Guest:He was a giant in my mind.

00:55:46Guest:And I got to meet and work with the man.

00:55:48Guest:And that was eye opening.

00:55:50Marc:And how much did you interact with, I know you were on the same show, but how much of an influence was Shatner on you?

00:55:58Guest:The Shat influenced me in no discernible ways.

00:56:04Marc:He was here a couple weeks ago.

00:56:05Marc:Was he?

00:56:06Marc:I talked to him.

00:56:06Guest:I love the Shat.

00:56:07Guest:I do.

00:56:08Guest:And I am tickled that I've become friends with Bill Shatner over time.

00:56:14Marc:He's a guy you got to get the hang of.

00:56:15Yeah.

00:56:16Yeah.

00:56:17Marc:You do.

00:56:18Marc:You do.

00:56:19Guest:But I love his curiosity.

00:56:22Guest:Yeah.

00:56:23Guest:He is innately curious about human beings.

00:56:26Guest:I love that he enjoys his life as much as he does.

00:56:31Marc:It's very funny, too.

00:56:32Guest:Yeah.

00:56:33Guest:He's a good guy.

00:56:34Marc:He's on to himself.

00:56:36Guest:And he doesn't take himself all that seriously.

00:56:40Marc:Yeah.

00:56:40Guest:He takes himself seriously, but not all that.

00:56:42Guest:Yeah.

00:56:42Marc:I had some good laughs for them.

00:56:44Marc:Yeah.

00:56:44Guest:Yeah.

00:56:45Guest:And it's possible to have good laughs with Shad.

00:56:47Guest:Oh, yeah, because if you just kind of poke him a little bit.

00:56:50Marc:Yeah, he gets up off of it.

00:56:51Guest:Yeah.

00:56:51Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:56:52Guest:He gets up off of it.

00:56:53Guest:So you did a lot of Star Trek.

00:56:55Guest:A lot, yeah, as an actor and as a director.

00:57:00Marc:Yeah.

00:57:00Marc:Oh, yeah, that's right.

00:57:01Marc:You directed, like, what, 10, 15 episodes?

00:57:03Guest:At least, yeah, of all of the succeeding characters.

00:57:07Marc:And that change in life, though, you know, to be out in the world as Kunta for, you know, probably a decade.

00:57:12Guest:Right.

00:57:12Marc:You know, in a very, you know, immediate way.

00:57:15Marc:Right.

00:57:16Marc:And then to be in the Star Trek universe.

00:57:17Marc:Right.

00:57:18Marc:That's like a big shift, man.

00:57:20Guest:And able to continue, while doing Star Trek, my work on Reading Rainbow.

00:57:25Marc:Because that happened almost simultaneously.

00:57:27Guest:Almost, yeah.

00:57:28Guest:We started, first episode of Reading Rainbow, I think it was 1983, 84.

00:57:32Guest:And we started Star Trek in 87.

00:57:35Right.

00:57:35Marc:So, like, reading Rainbow, like, for a generation of children, like, it was as important as Mr. Rogers for the next generation.

00:57:43Guest:For that next generation.

00:57:44Marc:Yeah, like, my producer's in his, you know, mid-40s, early 40s, mid-40s, and, you know, he, you know, came up on it.

00:57:50Marc:Right.

00:57:51Marc:You know, like they all know you.

00:57:53Marc:Right.

00:57:53Marc:Because parents were like, watch that.

00:57:58Guest:And parents could say, watch that and walk out of the room knowing that, you know, that the child was still being somehow enriched through the program.

00:58:12Marc:And what was the incentive of that?

00:58:14Marc:Like what made you think to do that?

00:58:16Marc:I mean, because that's your own thing.

00:58:18Guest:Yeah.

00:58:18Yeah.

00:58:18Guest:It seemed like a good idea.

00:58:21Marc:Genuinely.

00:58:23Guest:It seemed like a really good idea.

00:58:25Marc:You saw that there was something missing from children's programming?

00:58:28Guest:I saw that there was an opportunity.

00:58:31Guest:See, one of the things that I really learned doing Roots was I had a powerful experience of just how powerful the medium is.

00:58:39Guest:Yeah.

00:58:40Guest:Four hours of television, my life was changed forever.

00:58:42Guest:And eight hours of television, this nation was changed around our common concept of what we mean when we talk about chattel slavery in America.

00:58:52Guest:That's pretty heavy for a television show.

00:58:56Guest:Sure.

00:58:56Guest:Right?

00:58:57Guest:Yeah.

00:58:57Guest:100 million people.

00:58:58Guest:So when the idea for Reading Rainbow was pitched to me to use the very powerful engagement factor of television to create linkage between kids who are cracking the code, turning a kid who can read into a reader for life using television, I was all in.

00:59:13Guest:She's like, yeah, let's do that.

00:59:18Guest:My mother was a teacher.

00:59:19Guest:I know the value of being a reader in this life.

00:59:23Yeah.

00:59:24Marc:Yeah, you know, I guess I don't, like, think about it deeply enough in that, you know, because I can read.

00:59:31Marc:Yeah.

00:59:31Marc:But, like, the true magic of reading.

00:59:34Guest:Is being a self-identified reader.

00:59:37Marc:Well, yeah, but it really is this magical thing.

00:59:40Guest:It is absolutely magic.

00:59:43Marc:Yeah.

00:59:44Marc:Just to learn it.

00:59:45Marc:And, like, I'm just thinking back on getting the hang of it.

00:59:48Marc:Yeah.

00:59:49Yeah.

00:59:49Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:59:50Marc:It opens up worlds.

00:59:53Marc:Yeah.

00:59:54Marc:And how often does that happen to a person in a life?

00:59:59Guest:If you're lucky.

00:59:59Marc:A few.

01:00:00Guest:A few.

01:00:01Marc:I just had it happen the other day.

01:00:02Marc:Someone taught me.

01:00:03Marc:I took a guitar lesson.

01:00:04Marc:I play guitar, but I've been stuck in the same world of it for decades.

01:00:09Guest:Okay.

01:00:09Marc:And I just learned a few new skills from a guy.

01:00:11Marc:And I was like, oh, my God.

01:00:13Marc:Right.

01:00:13Marc:It's a whole thing.

01:00:16Marc:It's exciting.

01:00:17Guest:Life is designed to be exciting, I believe.

01:00:21Guest:Yeah.

01:00:23Guest:Right?

01:00:24Guest:If you have the right attitude about it.

01:00:25Marc:So do people come up to you and say, like, you know, you tell me how to read?

01:00:30Guest:Every day of my life.

01:00:35Guest:It's true.

01:00:37Guest:I'm a reader because of Reading Rainbow.

01:00:39Guest:I'm a writer because of Reading Rainbow.

01:00:43Guest:I'm a beekeeper because of, you know, the episode of bees.

01:00:47Marc:That's got to be the most rewarding thing.

01:00:50Guest:I think, well, first of all, yes, it is, you know, as the son of an English teacher.

01:00:57Marc:But just giving someone the keys.

01:00:59Marc:Yeah.

01:01:00Marc:Right?

01:01:01Marc:Yeah.

01:01:02Marc:I mean, Ruth's is its thing, you know, and you're part of something.

01:01:06Guest:And incredibly significant culturally.

01:01:09Marc:Yes.

01:01:10Marc:But just by you sitting there with books and with authors and doing that, in the simplest way—

01:01:19Marc:You know, you've like – who knows what some of these people would have been without you and what we've got because of that.

01:01:26Guest:It's pretty cool.

01:01:28Marc:Right.

01:01:28Marc:Pretty cool.

01:01:30Marc:And that's sort of still the mission.

01:01:33Guest:And to think that for me – I mean it would have been illegal not too long ago.

01:01:42Guest:to know how to read, right?

01:01:45Guest:Would have been an offense punishable by whipping or death, right?

01:01:50Guest:To have the facility of literacy and to grow up and become a symbol of early childhood literacy in this country, in this culture.

01:02:01Marc:Wow.

01:02:01Marc:It's happening again.

01:02:03Marc:Yeah.

01:02:05Marc:They're taking away books.

01:02:08Marc:Yeah.

01:02:08Guest:Yeah.

01:02:10Guest:And education, right?

01:02:11Guest:Oh, my God.

01:02:12Guest:I don't know that Roots could get on the air these days without major backlash.

01:02:17Guest:People would call it woke.

01:02:19Marc:Maybe, but also we live in a world where people don't even see half the television that's out there.

01:02:24Marc:Yeah.

01:02:25Marc:Or they live in a bubble.

01:02:26Marc:Yeah.

01:02:26Marc:Like the Underground Railroad, which I thought was... Brilliant.

01:02:31Marc:Oh, amazing.

01:02:33Marc:Yeah.

01:02:33Marc:Oh, unbelievable.

01:02:34Marc:Yeah.

01:02:35Marc:And it's not like when Roots was on, there were three networks.

01:02:39Marc:That's right.

01:02:39Marc:Right?

01:02:40Marc:That's right.

01:02:40Marc:So you've got to really choose now.

01:02:42Marc:Mm-hmm.

01:02:43Marc:What you watch.

01:02:43Marc:Right.

01:02:44Marc:Yeah.

01:02:44Marc:And you've got to find it.

01:02:45Marc:Yeah, that's true.

01:02:47Yeah.

01:02:47Marc:You know, like the fact that not many people watched that Underground Railroad, which was, it's genius.

01:02:54Marc:Genius.

01:02:56Marc:It's like, it's so upsetting.

01:02:57Marc:And I interviewed him.

01:02:58Marc:Did you?

01:02:59Marc:Yeah.

01:02:59Marc:And...

01:03:01Marc:You know, I was like, everyone should see this.

01:03:04Marc:Yeah.

01:03:04Marc:But it's not an easy watch, man.

01:03:06Guest:No.

01:03:07Marc:Neither was Roots.

01:03:08Marc:I know.

01:03:09Marc:Yeah.

01:03:09Marc:But it was devastating.

01:03:11Marc:Something watching Underground Railroad for me was because of the poetry and the way the stories were framed and some of them sort of hyper real.

01:03:21Marc:Yeah.

01:03:21Marc:Like it enabled me to connect with a type of empathy that I had not.

01:03:28Guest:That's awesome.

01:03:30Yeah.

01:03:30Marc:Right.

01:03:30Guest:That's excellent.

01:03:32Marc:Yeah.

01:03:32Marc:That's art.

01:03:33Marc:That's the power of storytelling.

01:03:34Guest:Yeah, for sure.

01:03:35Marc:That's the power of storytelling.

01:03:37Marc:And now as I know you've been directing a lot, but like it seems like that there's an interesting thing that happened to you as an actor later in life is that you are significant.

01:03:50Marc:Absolutely.

01:03:56Marc:Absolutely.

01:04:05Guest:How lucky am I?

01:04:07Marc:Pretty lucky.

01:04:08Guest:Yeah.

01:04:08Guest:What was it like doing that?

01:04:10Guest:It was awesome.

01:04:12Guest:Awesome having Michael Mann call.

01:04:15Guest:Yeah.

01:04:15Guest:And say, it's not a big part, but, you know, I'm doing this thing.

01:04:19Guest:And it's really about Ali.

01:04:21Guest:But we've got this, you know, there's a moment.

01:04:24Guest:Right.

01:04:25Guest:Right?

01:04:26Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:04:26Guest:We're going to recreate the balcony, Lorraine Motel.

01:04:30Guest:Come on.

01:04:30Guest:I grew up, again, MLK.

01:04:32Guest:Yeah.

01:04:33Guest:It was a huge, huge influence.

01:04:38Marc:Yeah.

01:04:38Guest:Huge hero.

01:04:39Marc:It's heavy, man.

01:04:41Marc:But these new, the podcast that's been ongoing is the story, reading the stories.

01:04:47Marc:LeVar Burley.

01:04:48Marc:And you also won that award for reading the autobiography of, or the biography of MLK, right?

01:04:53Guest:Yeah, I did, yeah.

01:04:56Guest:I mean, he's been a part of my life for as long, almost as long as I can remember.

01:05:01Marc:But I imagine when you engaged with the text, it must have been...

01:05:05Marc:Like it must have been like reading roots.

01:05:07Guest:Intimidating, but also incredibly rewarding.

01:05:12Guest:Because he was such a great orator, people forget what an amazing writer he was.

01:05:20Guest:And to read those speeches and feel the elegance and the beauty of the language and the power of it.

01:05:29Guest:of the ideas.

01:05:32Marc:Didn't he write a book about nonviolent activism?

01:05:35Guest:I don't know if it was a book.

01:05:38Guest:It was a way of life.

01:05:39Guest:Yeah, he talked about nonviolence a lot.

01:05:42Marc:I mean, it was a big... And also, he was a person.

01:05:45Marc:He was a man.

01:05:46Guest:He was a man.

01:05:47Marc:Yeah.

01:05:48Guest:All of our heroes are human.

01:05:51Marc:Yeah.

01:05:52Marc:Well, yeah.

01:05:53Marc:I mean, but I fear for the new generation because I think some of their heroes might not be human.

01:06:00Marc:I mean, I don't know.

01:06:00Marc:There's just something breaking down between fiction and reality.

01:06:05Guest:I think there is a distinct lack of principled leadership on the planet.

01:06:11Marc:That's right.

01:06:12Yeah.

01:06:12Marc:Yeah.

01:06:13Marc:Where are they?

01:06:13Marc:Where are the good guys?

01:06:14Guest:Where are the good guys?

01:06:15Guest:Where are the good guys who are willing to step out and lead?

01:06:19Marc:Right.

01:06:20Marc:That's the willingness to not be selfish.

01:06:23Guest:Being a public servant used to be a thing.

01:06:28Guest:but it's not anymore no now it's like you run for office to to get power so you can wield power to get what you want right yeah it's a problem that there's no democratic bench there is no bench we have no bench it's crazy we have no bench what are you doing

01:06:46Guest:I'm not going into politics is what I'm not doing.

01:06:51Guest:I'm not doing that.

01:06:52Marc:Keep teaching the kids.

01:06:53Guest:I feel like I found, you know, I found my place.

01:06:57Marc:Yeah, but it's also a place that you can feel pro, you know, that you're doing something proactive.

01:07:01Guest:I feel very good about my life.

01:07:04Marc:That's great.

01:07:05Marc:I love what I do.

01:07:06Marc:Did you ever meet Fred Rogers?

01:07:08Guest:Yeah, he's my third storytelling hero.

01:07:13Guest:It was awesome.

01:07:15Guest:Fred was a Presbyterian minister.

01:07:17Guest:So we sort of met on the field of service.

01:07:19Guest:But the very first time I met Fred, I was looking forward to meeting him because I wanted to meet the real guy.

01:07:25Guest:I thought that the guy that was on TV was a character that he was playing.

01:07:28Guest:So to find out that that's actually authentically who Fred was, was eye-opening.

01:07:36Marc:It was eye-opening because he was authentic.

01:07:39Guest:Because he was authentic.

01:07:40Guest:And he was that guileless.

01:07:43Guest:And he was that guy.

01:07:45Guest:He was that compassionate.

01:07:47Guest:He was that open.

01:07:48Guest:He was that caring.

01:07:49Guest:He was that real.

01:07:50Marc:Yeah.

01:07:52Marc:Well, I mean, I'm sorry about the Jeopardy thing.

01:07:55Guest:Don't be.

01:07:56Marc:I was rooting for you, even though I don't watch it.

01:07:58Marc:I was rooting for you.

01:07:59Guest:I appreciate you.

01:08:01Guest:I was disappointed.

01:08:03Guest:But it was not but.

01:08:04Guest:And it was a terrific life lesson for me.

01:08:07Guest:It was a real learning moment.

01:08:09Guest:Because you wanted to do it.

01:08:10Guest:I did.

01:08:10Guest:I did want to do it.

01:08:12Guest:I thought I would be good at it, and so I went after it very publicly.

01:08:17Guest:Yeah.

01:08:18Guest:And to not have gotten it, you know...

01:08:22Guest:There was some hubris.

01:08:26Guest:Got hurt?

01:08:27Guest:It hurt a bit.

01:08:28Guest:It hurt more than a bit.

01:08:31Guest:But I got over it.

01:08:32Guest:And it was a reminder of something that I really actually do believe and try to put into practice in my life.

01:08:40Guest:I believe everything happens for a reason.

01:08:42Guest:And the fact that that didn't happen for me meant that it wasn't for me.

01:08:46Marc:That's a good way to look at things.

01:08:48Marc:Keeps you out of the bitter place.

01:08:51Sigh.

01:08:51Guest:I learned a long time ago that staying out of that place was good for me, that being in that place wasn't necessary.

01:09:01Guest:It wasn't healthy.

01:09:03Guest:I stopped reading the trades years ago because reading the trades for me was an experience of seeing what I wasn't doing.

01:09:12Guest:Everybody else was doing something except for me.

01:09:15Marc:It was torturous.

01:09:16Marc:Yeah, I get that.

01:09:16Marc:Torturous.

01:09:17Marc:Yeah, it's a sort of – it's all pride.

01:09:21Yeah.

01:09:21Guest:Yeah, and ego.

01:09:22Marc:Yeah.

01:09:23Marc:Yeah.

01:09:24Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's a tough business for that.

01:09:28Marc:Even if you're doing well and you feel good, there's always like, you know, how come that guy?

01:09:33Marc:Exactly.

01:09:36Marc:We were never satisfied.

01:09:37Guest:We just were never satisfied.

01:09:40Guest:But a lot of times if you really play that through, it's like, you're not that guy.

01:09:43Guest:You're not that guy.

01:09:45Guest:And his life is for him and your life is for you.

01:09:47Guest:And would you want to be that?

01:09:49Marc:You know, no.

01:09:51Marc:That's the weird thing about it.

01:09:52Marc:Like, you know, a lot of times I'm like jealous or resentful of people and I don't even want the job.

01:09:57Marc:Right.

01:09:58Guest:But you just want what you can't have.

01:10:00Marc:I just want to compare myself to some party that's sort of like, well, you must suck.

01:10:03Marc:I mean, that more speaks to that than injustice.

01:10:07Marc:Because if after a certain point, all you're doing is beating the shit out of yourself.

01:10:11Marc:Exactly.

01:10:12Marc:So don't compare yourself to others.

01:10:14Guest:That's it.

01:10:14Guest:Yeah, it's old stuff.

01:10:15Guest:Old stuff.

01:10:17Guest:It's the basics.

01:10:18Guest:It's human basics once they figured it out.

01:10:21Guest:It's human 101.

01:10:22Marc:Right.

01:10:22Marc:Human being 101.

01:10:24Marc:Yep.

01:10:24Marc:Don't covet, man.

01:10:25Guest:Right.

01:10:25Guest:Be a good person.

01:10:27Marc:Yeah.

01:10:27Guest:Right?

01:10:27Guest:Yeah.

01:10:28Guest:And, you know, don't covet.

01:10:30Marc:Yeah.

01:10:30Marc:Don't covet.

01:10:31Marc:Yeah.

01:10:31Marc:Because it's not going to go anywhere good.

01:10:33Guest:It's not good for the soul.

01:10:35Marc:No.

01:10:35Marc:And it leads to bad shit.

01:10:37Marc:It does.

01:10:38Marc:Yeah.

01:10:38Marc:It does.

01:10:39Marc:You're going to start stealing.

01:10:40Marc:You're going to start killing people.

01:10:43Marc:It's not a new story.

01:10:48Marc:Nope.

01:10:50Marc:It also doesn't seem to be a story that anyone fully catches on to.

01:10:55Marc:No.

01:10:55Marc:Generation after generation of covetors and killers.

01:10:58Marc:That's us.

01:10:59Marc:I know.

01:11:00Marc:That's humanity.

01:11:00Marc:Well, I'm glad you're doing well.

01:11:02Guest:I feel good.

01:11:03Guest:I'm happy.

01:11:06Guest:I say that, you know, almost with embarrassment.

01:11:13Guest:If you were to ask my mom, how you doing?

01:11:16Guest:She would always say, fair to Midland.

01:11:18Guest:Fair to Midland.

01:11:19Guest:So as not to tempt the gods.

01:11:21Marc:I always say good enough.

01:11:22Guest:Good enough.

01:11:23Guest:Ooh, I like that.

01:11:24Guest:I like that.

01:11:25Marc:Yeah.

01:11:26Marc:That's my new one.

01:11:27Guest:Sidney Poirier always said, I am well.

01:11:29Marc:Oh, that's nice.

01:11:29Marc:I am well.

01:11:30Marc:I like that.

01:11:31Marc:Did you meet him?

01:11:31Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:11:32Marc:Oh, he must have.

01:11:34Marc:He was around for a long time.

01:11:35Guest:Yeah.

01:11:36Marc:What was that like?

01:11:38Guest:Like I said, you know, he was one of the reasons I became an actor.

01:11:41Guest:Seeing Lilies of the Field when I was a kid, I wanted to be that man.

01:11:46Guest:I wanted to be Sidney Poitier, not necessarily the character Homer Smith.

01:11:50Guest:I wanted to be Sidney.

01:11:51Marc:Yeah.

01:11:52Marc:Yeah.

01:11:52Marc:I just watched In the Heat of the Night again.

01:11:56Marc:Yeah.

01:11:56Marc:Dude, that thing is crazy.

01:11:59Guest:When he slaps, that man.

01:12:01Guest:That's the best.

01:12:03Guest:The best.

01:12:03Guest:And the guy turns to Rod Steiger, did you see that?

01:12:07Guest:Yeah, I saw it.

01:12:09Guest:I don't know that I believe it.

01:12:12Marc:Awesome.

01:12:13Marc:Every time it's awesome.

01:12:14Marc:It is.

01:12:14Marc:Like it never loses.

01:12:15Marc:No.

01:12:16Marc:No.

01:12:17Marc:That's the amazing thing about watching some of that stuff.

01:12:19Marc:It's like I watched Sorcerer recently, and that's the free conversion of the wages of fear.

01:12:26Marc:And like every time those trucks drive over those bridges, and I've seen it three times, you're sort of like, oh, shit.

01:12:31Marc:You know, every time.

01:12:33Marc:That's storytelling, too.

01:12:34Guest:That's the power of storytelling.

01:12:35Marc:Yeah, man.

01:12:36Marc:Yeah.

01:12:37Marc:Even if you know how it's going to end.

01:12:39Guest:Moving pictures and sound.

01:12:42Guest:It hits in a way.

01:12:44Guest:I mean, I think we are physically predisposed, right?

01:12:51Marc:Yeah, of course.

01:12:51Guest:To moving pictures and sound.

01:12:53Guest:It touches an emotional chord.

01:12:55Guest:We're open to it.

01:12:57Marc:It gets right in there.

01:12:59Marc:Yeah.

01:12:59Marc:Well, yeah, it's just, it's the way we are, it's how we are grounded in reality.

01:13:07Guest:Exactly.

01:13:08Guest:We use the same skills and senses that we use to process the world, only we're the receivers.

01:13:17Marc:Yeah.

01:13:17Guest:Right?

01:13:18Marc:It's part of genetic memory.

01:13:20Marc:There you go.

01:13:21Marc:It's the ongoing story.

01:13:22Guest:And our connection to dreams.

01:13:25Marc:Yeah, right.

01:13:26Guest:To what's possible, the possibility.

01:13:28Guest:That's what stories trigger in us, the possibilities.

01:13:32Marc:And you're telling stories on the two shows.

01:13:36Marc:Yeah.

01:13:37Marc:Good talking to you, man.

01:13:38Guest:Marc Maron, I love you.

01:13:41Guest:I love you, too.

01:13:42Guest:Yeah, you're a really good man.

01:13:44Guest:I appreciate that.

01:13:47Guest:You have carved your place, right?

01:13:50Guest:Yeah.

01:13:50Guest:You have carved your place, and you have integrity.

01:13:55Guest:Yeah.

01:13:56Guest:You do.

01:13:57Marc:Yeah.

01:13:57Marc:You do.

01:13:58Marc:I used to have a joke where I'd say, it's easy to maintain your integrity when no one's offering to buy it out.

01:14:03Yeah.

01:14:04Guest:But now that's changed, right?

01:14:07Marc:Yeah.

01:14:07Marc:Well, you know, it's weird.

01:14:08Marc:The path was carved out of, you know, what could have been a life of bitterness.

01:14:11Marc:You know, like there was definitely a crossroads situation and, you know, cosmic timing.

01:14:19Guest:And you had to pick yourself up, right?

01:14:22Guest:Right.

01:14:22Guest:And you had to talk to yourself.

01:14:24Guest:I had to keep pushing.

01:14:25Marc:I don't know.

01:14:25Marc:Like, you know, I talked to myself, but it was more like, you know, I got to do something.

01:14:29Marc:Hmm.

01:14:29Marc:You know, and it was just, I had, you know, a skill set and I was, I was, I just, I never stopped working, dude.

01:14:37Marc:Right.

01:14:38Marc:Yeah.

01:14:38Marc:Kept going.

01:14:39Marc:Yeah.

01:14:39Marc:I didn't, I didn't, I didn't give up.

01:14:42Marc:That's what it is, really.

01:14:43Marc:Wow.

01:14:44Marc:Either you're a giver-upper or you're not.

01:14:46Marc:You're not.

01:14:47Marc:Well, I'm glad you've persevered.

01:14:48Marc:You too.

01:14:49Guest:And, you know, and figured out your shit.

01:14:52Marc:Yeah.

01:14:52Marc:Well, that's ongoing.

01:14:53Marc:But I think that a good part of it is it's kind of worked out.

01:14:57Marc:You know, there's some there's some things that could use tweaking.

01:15:00Guest:But you have purpose in your life.

01:15:02Marc:I do.

01:15:02Marc:And that's what I recognize.

01:15:05Marc:Well, thank you.

01:15:05Marc:I appreciate it.

01:15:08Marc:By the way, actually, right?

01:15:14Marc:Again, you can subscribe to Sound Detectives wherever you get podcasts so you'll be able to hear the first episode as soon as it comes out.

01:15:21Marc:And also subscribe to LeVar Burton Reads, which is on its ninth season.

01:15:26Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.

01:15:30Marc:Hey, Full Marin subscribers, listen up.

01:15:32Marc:There are more producer cuts for you this week.

01:15:35Marc:You get to hear stuff that didn't make it into the show, including some extra chatting with Maria Bamford.

01:15:39Guest:I feel like show business is like a bad relationship.

01:15:45Marc:I used to say that all the time, but show business is not your parents.

01:15:47Guest:And it's an alcoholic.

01:15:49Guest:It shows up on your front lawn at 8 a.m.

01:15:52Guest:and going, hey, I love you.

01:15:54Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:15:54Guest:I love you so much where you've been.

01:15:58Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:58Marc:I've been right here.

01:15:59Marc:I've been here the whole time talking.

01:16:01Guest:I've been here the whole time.

01:16:03Marc:Go to the episode description and click on the link to sign up for the full Marin.

01:16:06Marc:And don't forget to submit a question for next week's Ask Mark Anything bonus episode.

01:16:11Marc:You can also go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+.

01:16:16Marc:Next week, we have a twofer on Monday.

01:16:18Marc:Les Claypool from Primus and guitarist Mark Rebo in two separate talks.

01:16:23Marc:And then on Thursday, director Larry Charles.

01:16:26Marc:Man, that thing was...

01:16:28Marc:Man, me and Larry, we did the thing.

01:16:31Marc:That was some fast-paced chat.

01:16:33Marc:Man, we got going, me and Larry.

01:16:36Marc:All right, here's some happy birthday guitar.

01:17:38Thank you.

01:18:07Thank you.

01:18:35Marc:Boomer lives.

01:18:37Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.

01:18:38Marc:Cat angels everywhere.