Episode 1467 - Michael Symon / Todd Barry

Episode 1467 • Released September 4, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck, Nick?

00:00:13Marc:What's happening?

00:00:14Marc:How's everything?

00:00:15Marc:Where are we at?

00:00:15Marc:How are you doing?

00:00:16Marc:Are you okay?

00:00:18Marc:Hey, before I get too lost in my rambling about this or that, I want to take a moment to congratulate us.

00:00:27Marc:All of us, I guess, but Brendan and myself.

00:00:31Marc:We have been doing this show 14 years.

00:00:34Marc:14 years.

00:00:36Marc:This is the, I guess it was the birthday week, probably last week, but this is it.

00:00:41Marc:This is the zone.

00:00:43Marc:WTF has been a podcast for 14 years.

00:00:47Marc:And I want to thank you.

00:00:50Marc:Our listeners, I want to thank all our guests.

00:00:55Marc:I mean, look, it's not an award show or anything, but it's another year doing this, and 14 is a pretty long run for a podcast, and we have stayed pretty level.

00:01:04Marc:We do all right.

00:01:05Marc:We're turning out good material.

00:01:08Marc:I'm always excited to do the show, but I want to thank Brendan McDonald, who's listening to this right now.

00:01:15Marc:We were there day one.

00:01:16Marc:It was really, always has been, just the two of us making this thing happen.

00:01:24Marc:Obviously, there's been assistants and bookers and contributors to the show, musicians, but the basic formula was Mark records the thing and

00:01:34Marc:And then Mark sends the thing to Brendan, who produces the thing, and then Brendan puts the thing up.

00:01:42Marc:That's the magic sauce right there.

00:01:46Marc:Yep.

00:01:47Marc:Happy birthday, WTF.

00:01:50Marc:14 years.

00:01:52Marc:Wild, man.

00:01:54Marc:I don't know if it's flying by, but all of a sudden it's here.

00:01:57Marc:Today, I talked to Michael Simon.

00:02:00Marc:He's a chef, a restaurant owner.

00:02:03Marc:You know him from the Food Network shows like Iron Chef America.

00:02:07Marc:He was also on The Chew.

00:02:08Marc:He had some great restaurants around the country, first in Cleveland and then in other cities.

00:02:13Marc:You know, I've gone to his restaurants in Cleveland.

00:02:15Marc:I knew his sous chef.

00:02:17Marc:Jonathan Sawyer had a restaurant down the street from Lola.

00:02:20Marc:He had the Greenhouse Tavern.

00:02:23Marc:I've known about Michael for a long time.

00:02:25Marc:I have not interviewed a chef in a while.

00:02:29Marc:Chefs.

00:02:30Marc:I like chefs.

00:02:31Marc:I think that there was a part of me that always wanted to be a chef.

00:02:35Marc:I remember when I fucked up in high school and I was thinking about, you know, living the rest of my life.

00:02:41Marc:off the land or wandering around my hometown.

00:02:45Marc:But there was a period where I thought I would go, maybe go to culinary school, but then it just looked like a massive ordeal.

00:02:52Marc:And I always was interested in cooking.

00:02:53Marc:I was a short order cook in high school and I worked in restaurants.

00:02:58Marc:I tried to be a line chef when I was living in Boston after college and drinking a lot.

00:03:03Marc:I was a bad waiter and there was an opening on the line.

00:03:06Marc:I talked the manager into letting me try it.

00:03:09Marc:And what a disaster.

00:03:11Marc:I just thought, look, man, if I put the apron on, I get to hang out with those guys on the line.

00:03:15Marc:You know, the fryer guy, the grill guy, the salad guy.

00:03:17Marc:It was me and three other guys back there.

00:03:20Marc:But you got to sync up, man.

00:03:21Marc:You got to know what the fuck you're doing.

00:03:23Marc:You can't just throw a bunch of onion rings into the breading and then throw them into the fryer so it turns out like a big clump.

00:03:30Marc:It was so embarrassing and so brutally humiliating.

00:03:34Marc:I mean, I think I lasted on the line two days.

00:03:36Marc:I fucked up everything.

00:03:37Marc:But it did give me an understanding of how the restaurant business works.

00:03:42Marc:And but I always like to cook and I know how to cook.

00:03:48Marc:Uh, I, you know, I can look at a recipe and figure it out.

00:03:52Marc:I talked to Michael a little bit about that, but I, it's weird thing as I'm going on in my life.

00:03:57Marc:Did I mention that Todd Berry is also here?

00:04:02Marc:Todd Berry dropped by and, you know, he's got a new special out.

00:04:04Marc:So I talked to him for a bit.

00:04:06Marc:And before I ramble on about cooking, maybe I can do that after.

00:04:11Marc:I'm at Largo in Los Angeles this Wednesday, September 6th.

00:04:16Marc:Then I'll be doing five shows at Helium in St.

00:04:18Marc:Louis, September 14th through 16th.

00:04:20Marc:I'll be at the Las Vegas Wise Guys in the Arts District on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.

00:04:26Marc:And then Bellingham, Washington.

00:04:28Marc:I'll be at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival.

00:04:36Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets.

00:04:39Marc:There will be more dates forthcoming.

00:04:43Marc:So that is happening.

00:04:45Marc:Okay?

00:04:45Marc:That is happening.

00:04:48Marc:Oh, there's another thing I wanted to talk about.

00:04:50Marc:And I think it's reasonable.

00:04:52Marc:I got an email recently.

00:04:53Marc:from a concerned, I would imagine, a psychotherapist, but somebody who puts something into perspective.

00:04:59Marc:You know, when I talk to Maria or I talk about mental health in general, I think you know, most of you, that I'm not speaking of a professional.

00:05:07Marc:But I think the one thing that this person had issue with is that when I say things like, you know, I was a little borderline-y or he or she's a little bipolar, that this person wanted to make it sort of

00:05:23Marc:explicit in in in telling me that look a personality disorder is a personality disorder it's something intrinsic to your being you know it's not and we all do this we all throw around diagnoses uh you know i think he's narcissistic i think he's bipolar i think he's borderline whatever but there is a a context and a way of diagnostics

00:05:47Marc:That determine whether someone is truly ill or mentally compromised with one of these personality profiles.

00:05:54Marc:And this person was basically making the point that you can't throw around the symptoms sort of disjointed and haphazardly.

00:06:03Marc:Because it may imply to people that are really mentally compromised or suffer from these personality disorders, it might give them false hope or think that there's something to not take seriously in their own diagnosis.

00:06:18Marc:So I just want to make clear that I'll be more aware of that.

00:06:22Marc:And obviously, we all know that all of us have at least one or two symptoms of every psychological disorder.

00:06:30Marc:But that does not mean that you have the personality disorder.

00:06:35Marc:And, you know, I didn't think I needed to explain this, but maybe in lieu of this email and also speaking to people who are in my audience that have serious personality disorders, I don't want to give false hope or diminish that.

00:06:52Marc:the seriousness of their condition.

00:06:55Marc:And by me throwing them around like that, it may diminish that.

00:06:57Marc:Or also when I say things like, I think I was a little borderline-y when I was younger, implies to people that are seriously suffering from that disorder, the idea that maybe it goes away, maybe it's not as serious.

00:07:13Marc:So look, not a mental health professional.

00:07:15Marc:We'll continue talking about mental health.

00:07:17Marc:We'll be a little more careful

00:07:20Marc:when I throw around diagnostics or labels.

00:07:25Marc:But thank you for that email, Chris.

00:07:28Marc:So Todd Berry's here.

00:07:30Marc:I'll talk about cooking a bit before Michael, but Todd came by.

00:07:35Marc:He was in town.

00:07:37Marc:I hadn't seen him in a while.

00:07:38Marc:I've known Todd Berry a very long time.

00:07:41Marc:We go back to the early days of both of us.

00:07:44Marc:Back when we neither one of us could really get work at any of the New York clubs and we'd wander around the East Village wondering why.

00:07:53Marc:But but I always like seeing Todd.

00:07:57Marc:And when he asked if he could come on to promote his new special, Todd Berry Domestic Shorthair, I said, sure, it's available to watch on YouTube.

00:08:06Marc:Just search it or go to the All Things Comedy YouTube channel to watch Todd.

00:08:12Marc:And this is my just a little like old school WTF shorty with Todd Berry.

00:08:29Guest:I just had a culinary experience that was unlike any other.

00:08:31Guest:I was with, I did a corporate gig, you know, because I'm kind of a picky eater.

00:08:37Guest:Yeah.

00:08:37Guest:But I went to a place called, I think it was called Ever in Chicago.

00:08:40Guest:Yeah.

00:08:41Guest:And Rory.

00:08:43Guest:Scovel.

00:08:43Guest:Yeah.

00:08:44Guest:We were both doing this guy's 40th birthday party.

00:08:46Guest:Yeah.

00:08:47Guest:But he knew this guy who ran this place ever.

00:08:49Guest:And it's like a place where it's like 230, 235, 285 per person.

00:08:52Guest:Yeah.

00:08:53Guest:The guy hooked us up.

00:08:54Guest:Yeah.

00:08:54Guest:And it was just like, we come out, like six waiters come out.

00:08:57Guest:Yeah.

00:08:57Guest:And all simultaneously refill your water glass.

00:09:00Guest:Oh, really?

00:09:01Guest:And I ate like rabbit.

00:09:02Guest:I'd never eaten rabbit.

00:09:03Guest:No?

00:09:04Guest:I just, I made a pact to myself.

00:09:06Guest:I'm going to eat whatever's in front of me.

00:09:09Guest:Really?

00:09:09Guest:Which is really.

00:09:10Guest:Big deal for you.

00:09:11Guest:It's a huge deal.

00:09:11Guest:Also, you don't want to be at that kind of thing and be like, nah, waving something off.

00:09:15Marc:Yeah.

00:09:16Guest:None, none, none, none.

00:09:17Marc:And then ask him for something that's not on the menu.

00:09:19Guest:Yeah, you have a chicken Caesar.

00:09:20Guest:Yeah.

00:09:21Guest:Yeah.

00:09:23Guest:And how was the rabbit?

00:09:24Guest:The rabbit was actually my favorite thing, but I think it was also like, it was just like, you know, they give you a little small portion.

00:09:30Guest:Sure.

00:09:30Guest:And it was well seasoned and spicy or whatever.

00:09:33Guest:It was like chicken, right?

00:09:34Guest:Yeah, it was good.

00:09:35Guest:Yeah.

00:09:35Guest:But I mean, I don't think I'm going to be like...

00:09:37Guest:Seeking it out?

00:09:38Guest:Yeah, don't get me like, do you have rabbit?

00:09:39Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:09:40Guest:I'm only eating rabbit.

00:09:41Guest:I had rabbit in Chicago.

00:09:42Guest:I'm big into rabbit.

00:09:43Guest:Yeah.

00:09:43Marc:Well, they used it sometimes in sauces.

00:09:45Marc:I don't know.

00:09:46Marc:I think I've eaten rabbit, but I don't remember it.

00:09:48Marc:I'm having a hard time with...

00:09:51Marc:Like I didn't get into the vegan thing for ethical reasons, but like I've gotten hyper sensitive to animals lately.

00:09:57Marc:Yeah.

00:09:58Marc:Yeah.

00:09:58Marc:I mean, sometimes I'll flip through Instagram and you just see those interspecies affection videos.

00:10:03Marc:Oh my God.

00:10:04Marc:Yeah.

00:10:04Marc:Kill me, man.

00:10:05Marc:I can't, I can't.

00:10:06Marc:And I feel like we've done such a disservice.

00:10:09Marc:Like I just feel terrible for animals every day.

00:10:11Guest:Yeah.

00:10:12Guest:And I read, I don't know if you see these like Instagram posts where like, this is Charlie's last day.

00:10:17Guest:Like when they film, like they're going to put them down the next thing.

00:10:20Guest:Like,

00:10:20Guest:God, you're trying to wreck me here?

00:10:22Guest:I'm in a coffee shop.

00:10:25Guest:Crying.

00:10:25Guest:Crying over some strange guy's cat.

00:10:27Marc:Do you remember, like, I remember, like, you did always have sort of a specific food thing.

00:10:33Marc:Like, I went to New York.

00:10:35Marc:I was there a couple weeks ago for a few days just hiding and just for no reason and just trying to go to museums and feel the city and, you know, recharge.

00:10:43Marc:You know, I didn't, I ended up doing, I hadn't done comedy in a club in New York in years.

00:10:47Guest:Yeah.

00:10:48Marc:I just won't do it.

00:10:49Marc:I just can't.

00:10:50Marc:I don't know why.

00:10:51Marc:I went to the stand.

00:10:53Marc:It was okay.

00:10:55Marc:But there's something about me and doing stand-up in New York.

00:11:00Marc:It's almost like going to where the trauma happened.

00:11:04Marc:Yeah.

00:11:05Guest:Scene of the crime.

00:11:06Marc:Exactly.

00:11:06Marc:I still get that weird kind of like, oh, fuck.

00:11:10Marc:I got to lock it.

00:11:11Marc:There was nothing...

00:11:13Marc:You know, comfortable about it.

00:11:14Marc:All the weird willies come back.

00:11:16Guest:Yeah.

00:11:16Guest:I'm trying like lately to just be comfortable not having jokes, having jokes not work.

00:11:22Guest:Yeah, I'm working on that too.

00:11:23Guest:Which is the hardest thing.

00:11:24Guest:How are you doing with that?

00:11:25Guest:Oh, I sort of am in a, I mean, I have a special that came out yesterday.

00:11:30Guest:That's what we're talking about.

00:11:30Guest:What was that on YouTube?

00:11:31Guest:Yeah, on YouTube.

00:11:32Guest:What's it called?

00:11:33Guest:It's called Domestic Short Hair.

00:11:35Guest:Is it all about your cat?

00:11:36Guest:There's a lot about my cat on there.

00:11:38Guest:I do cat jokes, yeah.

00:11:40Guest:Hey, wait.

00:11:41Guest:I did them first.

00:11:42Marc:I'm sure there's no crossover.

00:11:44Marc:I usually do one or two.

00:11:45Guest:It would be funny if there was a guy who claimed it.

00:11:47Guest:Hey, I'm the guy who came up with cat jokes.

00:11:49Guest:Yeah, I'm the cat guy.

00:11:50Guest:I noticed they were kind of goofy.

00:11:51Marc:So you self-published this thing?

00:11:55Marc:How did that work?

00:11:55Guest:That was All Things Comedy, Bill Burr's and Al Madrigal's company.

00:11:59Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:11:59Guest:Yeah, they paid for it, and they tried to sell it and it didn't sell.

00:12:03Guest:Where did you shoot it?

00:12:05Guest:In Chicago.

00:12:06Guest:Where?

00:12:07Yeah.

00:12:07Guest:At the Den Theater.

00:12:09Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:12:09Guest:Which is nice.

00:12:10Guest:Yeah.

00:12:10Guest:About 300, 250 feet.

00:12:11Guest:Yeah.

00:12:12Guest:So it's a perfect side.

00:12:13Guest:They treat you really nicely there, and it's a good layout.

00:12:15Guest:Yeah.

00:12:17Guest:So I did it there, but it was like over a year ago, so.

00:12:20Guest:Right.

00:12:21Guest:So there's a couple like little COVID jokes that perhaps I could have cut out, but I didn't.

00:12:24Marc:It's so weird to me that like, you know, like...

00:12:27Marc:there are still people talking about like, you know, Beretta or yeah, it's just like, that's a bad reference, but it's sort of like, we all went through this traumatic, awful fucking thing for three years.

00:12:38Marc:The world has not really recovered from the trauma of it.

00:12:42Marc:And people are like, yeah, go, it's out.

00:12:44Marc:You don't need, don't mention it.

00:12:45Guest:Yeah, I mean, they're, I mean.

00:12:47Guest:Like, what the fuck?

00:12:48Guest:I shouldn't even be talking about this out loud, because I did glance at my YouTube comments, which is, I know, better than to do that.

00:12:53Marc:That's going to be your life for a fucking.

00:12:54Guest:But they were, vast majority of them were very nice.

00:12:57Guest:Yeah.

00:12:58Guest:But then there's a couple, and I also think if you talk about COVID in any way, that's like, maybe it was okay to wear a mask.

00:13:03Guest:Yeah.

00:13:04Guest:People are reacting to that.

00:13:05Guest:They're not reacting comedically.

00:13:06Guest:That's the worst.

00:13:07Guest:They're just the fucking worst.

00:13:09Guest:You know, the type of people who say face diaper or something like that.

00:13:12Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:13:12Marc:No, it's the worst.

00:13:13Marc:Like, you know, I put up some posts on—I did an Instagram Live, and my TikTok guy put up this post about Barbie on TikTok.

00:13:22Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:13:22Marc:And it got like almost like 2.7 million views.

00:13:25Marc:Yeah.

00:13:26Marc:And that was just me saying I like the movie.

00:13:27Marc:Right.

00:13:28Marc:And that if you're a guy that got offended by this movie, you're a fucking baby.

00:13:32Marc:Right.

00:13:32Marc:And it was just like a shitstorm of opinion about all these guys.

00:13:37Marc:It's all dug in their head.

00:13:39Marc:All this right wingy woke thing.

00:13:41Marc:It's just like so tedious and dumb.

00:13:44Marc:Right.

00:13:44Marc:And it's sort of like, and then the picture that there's a guy that sits there and makes a decision to post that.

00:13:49Marc:Right.

00:13:50Marc:It's like, who the fuck is that?

00:13:51Marc:I got to let it go.

00:13:52Marc:I get very, I can't look at any of the comments.

00:13:54Guest:Yeah, I'm going to, today I promised myself I wouldn't look anymore.

00:13:58Guest:Do you do it on Twitter too?

00:14:00Guest:On Twitter, I sometimes, I don't get a lot of hate on, I've gotten hate on Twitter, but what am I talking about?

00:14:04Guest:But I just feel like even I went on Reddit and the comments were good on the special.

00:14:09Guest:Oh yeah?

00:14:10Guest:I'm not even sure I know how to go on Reddit.

00:14:11Guest:Yeah, I mean, I just discovered it through Googling.

00:14:15Marc:Yeah.

00:14:15Marc:What do you got?

00:14:16Marc:You just do a search?

00:14:17Marc:You go to Reddit?

00:14:18Guest:Well, what I did was put my own name in and then the name of the special and came up with that.

00:14:25Marc:So now I'm afraid to do a YouTube thing.

00:14:28Marc:Are you?

00:14:29Marc:I need a patron.

00:14:31Marc:Yeah, I mean, I, yeah.

00:14:33Marc:I mean, I didn't, well, I mean, obviously I'm in a position where I got one with the HBO special.

00:14:38Marc:But my fear of the YouTube thing is that, like, I put all that work into it and then you just got to be like, look at how many views it gets.

00:14:45Guest:Right.

00:14:45Guest:And it's going to kill me.

00:14:46Guest:Right, yeah.

00:14:47Guest:It's true.

00:14:47Guest:With Netflix, at least they were nice enough to not tell you one thing about how well your special was done.

00:14:53Guest:Right.

00:14:53Guest:And you're just like, hey, can I find out my special?

00:14:56Guest:Nope.

00:14:57Guest:Aren't we working together?

00:14:58Guest:Yeah.

00:14:58Guest:I know.

00:14:58Guest:They won't tell it.

00:14:59Marc:Shouldn't this be friendly?

00:15:00Marc:Yeah.

00:15:00Marc:I noticed it's hard to find, and it's only been up for three days.

00:15:03Marc:Is there a problem?

00:15:05Guest:I mean, I did a reframe with how I feel about the special because I have no choice, but because it didn't... No one bought it.

00:15:11Guest:Right.

00:15:11Guest:So I was like, all right, this is going to be a... I'm kind of tired of all the jokes on this anyway.

00:15:16Guest:Right.

00:15:16Guest:Oh, that's good.

00:15:17Guest:So it'll be a calling card and hopefully help me sell tickets on the road.

00:15:20Guest:Are you touring now or no?

00:15:22Guest:Yeah, I'm on a tour that I...

00:15:24Guest:It's kind of embarrassing, but it's called the half-joking tour where it's half jokes and then half crowd work.

00:15:31Guest:Oh, okay.

00:15:31Guest:I thought that was an easy way to tour without having a new hour.

00:15:35Marc:Yeah.

00:15:36Guest:And is it going well?

00:15:37Guest:I've only done three shows and they've gone pretty well.

00:15:39Guest:I did Ashland, Virginia is where I started, which is near Richmond, which was great.

00:15:44Guest:Then I did Annapolis.

00:15:45Guest:Annapolis?

00:15:46Guest:Yeah.

00:15:47Guest:And then I did Philadelphia.

00:15:48Guest:Yeah.

00:15:48Marc:philly yeah we're in philly city winery oh people are doing those i know like i talked to mandy last night or the other night and he's doing them yeah he's doing the philly one i noticed yeah he's like doing a lot of them i didn't realize it was a chain yeah it is it's gotten it's they're popping up everywhere what do they usually see what four or five hundred or something

00:16:07Guest:This one was pretty big, probably $3.50 or something.

00:16:11Guest:Yeah, because they do a lot of music, right?

00:16:13Guest:Yeah, they're mainly music, mainly singer-songwriter people.

00:16:16Guest:Nice venue, though?

00:16:18Marc:Yeah, and they treat you nice.

00:16:19Marc:Grown-up people?

00:16:19Marc:Food's good, yeah.

00:16:21Marc:What about that one in New York City?

00:16:22Marc:There's a good one there.

00:16:23Guest:Yeah, they have two rooms.

00:16:25Guest:They have a smaller room, which I think is actually better for comedy, but it is smaller.

00:16:28Guest:It's called The Loft at the City Winery.

00:16:30Guest:It's about $175, yeah.

00:16:32Marc:So what's the big plan for life?

00:16:34Marc:You're just going to keep... Do you ever have that moment where you're like, how am I still living this life?

00:16:40Marc:It is weird, yeah.

00:16:41Marc:It's like I... Because we're old.

00:16:43Guest:Right.

00:16:43Marc:It's a little scary, but... Yeah.

00:16:46Marc:This is a big chunk of time that... I don't think it was COVID.

00:16:49Marc:Maybe COVID didn't help anything, but in terms of like time gets very fluid, and now all of a sudden, you know, I'm going to be 60, you're going to be 60, and it's like... But I don't think it went by fast.

00:16:59Yeah.

00:17:00Marc:No, it's... But it does feel like, you know, how did I get here?

00:17:03Guest:Yeah, it's just like, you know, you just think, oh, you start thinking about every decision is much more important than like... Yeah, but also the enjoying yourself thing comes up a lot for me.

00:17:17Marc:Am I doing that?

00:17:19Marc:Oh, as opposed to working too hard or... Or just like not knowing how to enjoy myself or like you're going to Madrid.

00:17:24Marc:That sounds like a nice thing.

00:17:26Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:26Marc:You're able to enjoy yourself?

00:17:28Guest:Yeah, I am.

00:17:29Guest:I mean, it's a little stressful because sometimes they're like, oh, I want to write some jokes and I'm going away.

00:17:36Guest:But then I don't want to be the person who doesn't go away.

00:17:39Marc:Yeah.

00:17:40Guest:You know?

00:17:40Marc:Yeah.

00:17:41Marc:And also we come from this weird work ethic.

00:17:43Marc:Like I'm doing more comedy now than I think I've ever done in my fucking life.

00:17:46Marc:Really?

00:17:47Marc:Yeah.

00:17:47Marc:I go out like three nights a week, workout shit.

00:17:50Marc:I do hours at Dynasty Typewriter trying to work it out.

00:17:53Marc:And after my, like during the pandemic, I was like, maybe I don't have to do it anymore.

00:17:58Marc:You know, maybe I'm all better.

00:18:00Marc:But then as soon as other people started doing it, I'm like, fuck, I've got to get out there again.

00:18:04Guest:Yeah, I mean, there's a reason we've been doing this for pushing 38 years or 36 years or whatever.

00:18:08Guest:What is it?

00:18:10Guest:I don't know.

00:18:11Guest:I mean, I do.

00:18:12Guest:Help me out.

00:18:14Guest:I do worry that sometimes, like, am I just locked into this now?

00:18:17No.

00:18:18Guest:Right.

00:18:18Guest:Well, I mean, because it's a big difference between your first time on stage and your 10,000th time on stage.

00:18:24Marc:Well, we obviously are locked into it, but obviously we get something out of it and it is what we do.

00:18:29Marc:Yeah.

00:18:30Marc:But then like it becomes this thing like we're just fortunate that we have an audience at the age we have.

00:18:35Marc:We are because the whole there's like three generations after us already.

00:18:40Marc:that are all kind of, you know, going at it.

00:18:42Marc:Yeah.

00:18:43Marc:So my moments, like, you start to look out at your audience, and I'm like, oh, I'm middle-aged people out there.

00:18:48Marc:Yeah.

00:18:48Marc:And, you know, that's, I mean, why wouldn't there be?

00:18:51Marc:That's who I am.

00:18:52Guest:What am I expecting?

00:18:52Guest:Yeah, I've been getting a lot of families at my shows lately, where you're just like...

00:18:57Guest:Okay.

00:18:58Guest:And it's always like, we got the father, the son, the mom.

00:19:01Guest:I mean, one guy brought his mom in Virginia, brought his mom and his sister.

00:19:05Guest:And she's like, I'd never heard of you.

00:19:07Guest:Yeah, that's always good.

00:19:08Guest:But she was having a good time.

00:19:10Guest:She wasn't saying it in a shitty way.

00:19:11Guest:Yeah.

00:19:12Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:19:12Guest:I'm figuring your 28-year-old son is probably the one who would.

00:19:17Guest:Brought you in?

00:19:17Marc:Yeah.

00:19:19Marc:Yeah.

00:19:19Marc:I don't think I get a lot of families, but I get young people that are kind of like me.

00:19:23Marc:Yeah.

00:19:23Marc:That were sort of, I think that, I mean, I get smart people.

00:19:26Marc:I have good audiences.

00:19:28Marc:But the point is, is like, I don't know what I'd be doing if I didn't have people coming to see me.

00:19:34Marc:Would we still be fucking... Yeah.

00:19:37Guest:Yeah.

00:19:37Guest:I mean, yeah, that's true.

00:19:40Guest:I mean, I do like to sort of go, oh, this is kind of a cool little life I've cut out for myself.

00:19:44Guest:Well, that's good.

00:19:45Marc:You got to have that gratitude.

00:19:46Marc:But my, you know, it's like, it's not like we're not like Seinfeld, who's like, you know, he's going to decide to go out and make a billion dollars because he's like internationally loved.

00:19:55Marc:Right.

00:19:56Marc:I mean, like there's some points where I'm sort of like, do I even need to do this anymore?

00:20:00Marc:Yeah.

00:20:00Marc:And I think about that all the time.

00:20:02Marc:But, like, I clearly need to do it for myself.

00:20:05Marc:But, like, what are you going to do?

00:20:06Marc:I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:20:07Marc:Retirement doesn't sound fun.

00:20:09Marc:Doesn't it?

00:20:12Marc:I don't know if I could do it.

00:20:13Marc:But there's nothing dragging me back in.

00:20:15Marc:Like, if I stop doing comedy.

00:20:17Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:20:17Marc:And, you know, I didn't make a big deal about it.

00:20:20Marc:I'd just be like, you know, I don't know what happened to that guy.

00:20:22Marc:You know what I mean?

00:20:22Marc:Right.

00:20:23Marc:But, of course, I talk about it on the podcast.

00:20:24Marc:But I think about, like, a point where maybe I stop.

00:20:29Marc:I don't know really what that looks like or what I do.

00:20:31Marc:But one of the benefits of being comics is clearly we have an ability to do almost nothing.

00:20:38Marc:Right.

00:20:38Marc:For days on end.

00:20:40Marc:Yeah.

00:20:41Marc:So if you just take the going out and doing a set part out of that, you know, what do you have?

00:20:49Marc:Yeah.

00:20:50Marc:Here's a heavy question.

00:20:50Guest:Do you ever worry about losing it?

00:20:53Guest:Losing my funny?

00:20:54Guest:Yeah.

00:20:54Guest:Your fastball.

00:20:56Marc:I see it happening to people.

00:20:57Guest:Oh, I've seen it.

00:20:58Guest:You're just like, oh, my God.

00:21:00Marc:It's usually when people don't do it for a while and they come back.

00:21:03Guest:Yeah.

00:21:04Marc:And, you know, I was talking about that with Patton the other night.

00:21:11Marc:Like we were talking about Kumail is that there are guys – Patton goes out a lot.

00:21:15Marc:But there is this sort of – there's a new generation of comedy goers.

00:21:19Marc:And I know that a lot of times –

00:21:21Marc:When I do the store, maybe a third of the people know who I am.

00:21:24Marc:You know, I'm not some I'm not the only people that everyone knows who they are at a very high level of saturation.

00:21:31Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:21:32Marc:But I talked to somebody, you know, I said, you know, John Mulaney.

00:21:35Marc:And they're like, no.

00:21:36Marc:So it's everything's a sort of weird bubble.

00:21:39Marc:But so if you're not going out and doing those shows where you have to do the job for people that don't know you, how are you going to stay in shape?

00:21:45Marc:How are you going to get up and do just regular comedies if people don't know you, if you don't fucking stay in shape?

00:21:50Marc:You got to stay in shape, right?

00:21:52Marc:So I don't know if I worry about losing it.

00:21:57Marc:Okay.

00:21:58Marc:The ability to sort of do what I do.

00:22:03Marc:Now I will.

00:22:04Marc:Now I'll think about it.

00:22:05Guest:Because I put it in your head.

00:22:07Guest:Mission accomplished.

00:22:09Guest:You think about it?

00:22:10Guest:I think about it because there's even like songwriters and I'm not going to name names, but people like, oh, it's just not what it used to be.

00:22:17Marc:They think they're doing great.

00:22:18Guest:I mean, I remember had a English professor was talking about, I think Faulkner said at some point the spirit left him.

00:22:27Guest:Yeah.

00:22:27Guest:I was like, oh.

00:22:28Guest:And then I did look up the professor and he was arrested for stalking.

00:22:32Guest:That's just a side note.

00:22:33Guest:I guess the spirit didn't leave him.

00:22:35Guest:Yeah.

00:22:36Guest:Do you ever do that?

00:22:36Guest:Look up someone and you're just like, oh, what happened to that guy?

00:22:38Guest:He was a little weird.

00:22:39Guest:Oh, arrested for stalking.

00:22:41Guest:Yeah, that's probably the guy.

00:22:42Guest:He had the bad spirit in him.

00:22:44Guest:But, yeah.

00:22:45Guest:So, I mean, I do worry about losing it.

00:22:47Guest:A lot of it's just like, what can you do?

00:22:50Guest:There's certain things we can't do anything about.

00:22:52Guest:That was deep.

00:22:54Marc:I think that the thing that drives me stays pretty vital.

00:23:00Marc:You know what I mean?

00:23:01Marc:I've never been a joke-to-joke guy, but I seek to engage.

00:23:07Marc:I think you lose it when some part of you just walks through it.

00:23:13Marc:I think if you're not engaged...

00:23:17Marc:and you're unable to get there, then it's a problem.

00:23:23Guest:Right, if you're phoning it in.

00:23:24Marc:Yeah, but I don't even know how to do that.

00:23:26Marc:I don't even know what that looks like.

00:23:27Marc:It seems like everything I do requires all of me to do it.

00:23:31Marc:Right.

00:23:32Marc:Like, I don't know.

00:23:32Guest:What if the crowd's just kind of, uh-huh.

00:23:35Marc:Well, what I used to do is, you know, just get mad, make it weird.

00:23:42Guest:Yeah.

00:23:43Marc:But, you know, I do what you do.

00:23:44Marc:Like, if it's not great, you sort of go like, oh, I thought that would get better.

00:23:49Marc:You kind of make light of it.

00:23:51Marc:Yeah.

00:23:52Marc:But other times I realize, and this was the big grown-up realization about, you know, God forbid I had this when I was 25 or 30.

00:24:01Marc:It's just that, like, some nights aren't good.

00:24:03Marc:Right.

00:24:04Marc:And, you know, you get what you can.

00:24:06Marc:Like, you know, like you can do your best joke and then you feel the level of that.

00:24:11Marc:And you know it's a good joke.

00:24:13Marc:And then you just have to decide, like, well, that's the peak of what these people are capable of.

00:24:19Guest:Right.

00:24:19Guest:And also, but then there's also those audiences who are like, are too good?

00:24:24Guest:Yeah.

00:24:25Guest:Which is, you know.

00:24:26Marc:It's always good to reprimand them for that.

00:24:27Guest:Weird thing to have, weird problem to complain about.

00:24:30Guest:But there's a thing where like, yeah, I'm not going to, I can't assume that I'm going to get that every time.

00:24:35Marc:Yeah, no, I had that happen fairly recently.

00:24:40Marc:But I think that people, certainly people that would come see us, are really kind of like, you know, these are dark times.

00:24:47Marc:So they do want relief.

00:24:50Marc:And sometimes they come just sort of like, I hope they do it.

00:24:54Marc:You know, I hope they give it.

00:24:55Marc:And they're excited to go.

00:24:56Marc:Right.

00:24:57Guest:Yeah, it's always interesting.

00:24:59Guest:I'm sure you've gotten people who are just like, hey, you got me through a hard time.

00:25:03Guest:Yeah.

00:25:03Guest:Really?

00:25:04Guest:How did I do that?

00:25:06Guest:I get a lot of that.

00:25:07Guest:My joke about going Old Navy?

00:25:11Marc:Sometimes it's all it takes.

00:25:12Marc:Yeah.

00:25:13Marc:Like, I was talking to Bargatze the other night, and he told me something I said to him that, you know, he sort of remembers and thinks about, you know, in terms about doing comedy.

00:25:23Marc:I'm like, oh, I'm glad I helped out.

00:25:25Guest:Yeah.

00:25:25Marc:He's doing very well.

00:25:26Guest:Yeah, he is.

00:25:27Marc:He's very funny, dude.

00:25:28Guest:Yeah, he's very funny.

00:25:29Guest:But I think that I, because I can't relate to, like, I was feeling blue.

00:25:34Guest:Like, if I'm...

00:25:35Guest:If I'm sad about something, I'm all in, man.

00:25:38Guest:I'm going to turn on a comedy film to cheer me up.

00:25:41Guest:It ain't going to work.

00:25:44Guest:No song will make it better, nothing.

00:25:46Marc:It just has to end on its own.

00:25:47Marc:But I did so many Instagram Lives and all this stuff that it became a regular thing.

00:25:51Marc:I think that it's really that sort of standard thing of whatever makes people feel less alone, even for a moment, it's like a goddamn life preserver.

00:26:00Guest:Yeah, I'm like moved when someone tells me that, you know.

00:26:03Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:26:04Marc:It's great.

00:26:05Marc:I'm sort of like I'm always sort of as gracious as I can be and just tell them I'm glad to help out.

00:26:11Marc:And a lot of it has to do with booze and things like that, mental problems.

00:26:15Marc:Like, you know, I just did a – I put up an interview with Maria Bamford.

00:26:19Marc:And those kind of interviews, it's like, you know, there's just people that are alone in their heads and it's not good.

00:26:25Marc:Right.

00:26:25Marc:And if they hear anybody saying anything that they can relate to, they're like, oh, my God.

00:26:31Marc:Thank God.

00:26:32Guest:Yeah.

00:26:32Marc:Yeah.

00:26:32Marc:You know, it's like that easy.

00:26:34Marc:I think jokes are really like that sometimes.

00:26:37Marc:If they can relate to it and you make them look at something a different way, even if it's simple.

00:26:42Marc:Yeah.

00:26:43Marc:It's like relieving.

00:26:45Guest:Yeah.

00:26:45Marc:We're doing God's work, Todd.

00:26:47Guest:That's, I was about to say the exact same thing.

00:26:50Marc:All right.

00:26:50Marc:So what's the name of the special?

00:26:51Guest:It's called Domestic Short Hair.

00:26:53Guest:Okay.

00:26:53Guest:It's on YouTube on the All Things Comedy YouTube channel.

00:26:57Marc:When are you going, are you leaving for Madrid from here?

00:26:59Marc:When are you going back to New York?

00:27:00Guest:I'm going back on Thursday.

00:27:02Guest:Then we go to Madrid.

00:27:04Guest:All right.

00:27:04Guest:Well, good seeing you, man.

00:27:05Guest:Good seeing you.

00:27:06Guest:Thanks for having me again.

00:27:08Yeah.

00:27:13Marc:There you go.

00:27:16Marc:That was Todd.

00:27:17Marc:Me and Todd catching up.

00:27:18Marc:Again, that Todd Berry domestic short hair special is available on the All Things Comedy YouTube channel.

00:27:25Marc:And now cooking.

00:27:27Marc:This is a double header.

00:27:29Marc:We got Michael Simon coming up.

00:27:30Marc:And as I was saying at the beginning of the show.

00:27:33Marc:I always was drawn towards cooking, and it's interesting because my mother could not.

00:27:39Marc:My mother is a lifetime eating disorder person, but manageable.

00:27:46Marc:She, as I've said many times, part of her focus in life and her job was maintaining a fairly real eating disorder and maintaining a particular weight for a very long time and eating very limited things, some of them not appealing.

00:28:02Marc:But when it came to cooking, that was not really happening.

00:28:05Marc:There was a lot of TV dinners.

00:28:07Marc:There was a lot of defrosting things.

00:28:08Marc:There were a lot of attempts.

00:28:10Marc:She would buy frozen foods at high-end places that sold frozen foods.

00:28:15Marc:There was a place called Tully's in Albuquerque, sold Italian stuff.

00:28:19Marc:And then she'd sort of defrost that and mash it together with some of her own ideas and that and TV dinners.

00:28:26Marc:And it was not great while she sat there and ate a mountain of salad.

00:28:32Marc:But nonetheless, because of that, or in light of that, I became sort of kind of fascinated with cooking.

00:28:40Marc:But as I was saying before, I didn't really realize that you could just cook, that you could just be a good cook until college when I had a professor who was...

00:28:52Marc:Obsessed with me, predatory, took advantage of my vulnerable, nebulous sense of self and identity and really tried to get me in bed and tried to convince me that I was gay.

00:29:09Marc:And it was completely boundaryless and in retrospect, not on the level.

00:29:15Marc:And not appropriate.

00:29:17Marc:But oddly, though, I didn't turn out to be gay.

00:29:21Marc:I was very impressed with this guy.

00:29:22Marc:And there were dinner parties at his house.

00:29:26Marc:And one of the things that he changed my life in a lot of ways is.

00:29:31Marc:And is that he was just self-taught gourmet chef of a kind.

00:29:37Marc:And he was just able to, you know, have managed these dinner parties and cook these amazing things without really thinking twice about it.

00:29:44Marc:And I if I took anything from him.

00:29:47Marc:It was this idea that I could do that.

00:29:49Marc:And I think about it all the time that you can, if you put together a kitchen and you have the stuff you need to cook and you are focused and have an understanding of putting things together, whether they're recipes or improvising or whatever you want, that you can do it.

00:30:06Marc:You don't need training.

00:30:08Marc:And obviously everyone knows this.

00:30:09Marc:I mean, Michael Simon was on the on the, you know, on the Food Network.

00:30:12Marc:I mean, that showed everybody how to cook.

00:30:14Marc:But either you can or you can't.

00:30:16Marc:But maintaining a kitchen and cooking for yourself is it's good for you.

00:30:20Marc:And it's a tremendous gift as a hobby.

00:30:24Marc:It's very satisfying to cook.

00:30:26Marc:Sometimes I'll spend hours cooking and minutes eating everything I cooked.

00:30:31Marc:So the balance is not great, but it's nice to be able to cook.

00:30:36Marc:And I will thank Gary Orgel for giving me that gift and also fucking me up in the head pretty good for a lot of years.

00:30:43Marc:But somehow or another, the gift of...

00:30:46Marc:of cooking and finding the confidence to do that overrides the trauma of his predatory nature at the time.

00:30:54Marc:Rest in peace, Gary.

00:30:56Marc:So Michael Simon came over here and he's got a new book, new cookbook, Simply Simon's Suppers.

00:31:03Marc:He's a great chef with a good story.

00:31:06Marc:Nice guy.

00:31:07Marc:The new book, Simply Simon Suppers, recipes and menus for every week of the year comes out next week, Tuesday, September 12th.

00:31:15Marc:You can preorder it right now.

00:31:18Marc:And this is me having a conversation with the lovely Michael Simon.

00:31:27Marc:Some people are surprised that I cook, and I realize, and just tell me if you think this is true, some people can't cook.

00:31:41Marc:Agreed.

00:31:42Marc:And I think the reason is that if you look at a recipe and you can't picture how it's supposed to come out, you can't cook it.

00:31:50Marc:like how all the pieces come together.

00:31:52Marc:Like if you're just a person, it's like, I'm going to throw this in, I'm going to throw this in, I'm going to throw this in, with very little basic technique.

00:31:58Marc:If you can't visualize how it comes together, you're going to be like, what happened?

00:32:02Guest:I think the visualization helps.

00:32:03Guest:I also think,

00:32:05Guest:Sadly, I mean, in my in my opinion, I guess that there are people out there that food's just not that they eat food purely for fuel.

00:32:14Guest:Right.

00:32:15Guest:And those people tend to not be able to cook because not because they can't, but more they just don't care.

00:32:22Marc:Yeah.

00:32:23Marc:And that's sad to me because like sometimes in my kitchen, it's like I'm running a restaurant because I'll cook for the week.

00:32:29Marc:But I've been vegan lately.

00:32:31Marc:But that makes it more challenging and interesting.

00:32:32Guest:No, 100 percent.

00:32:33Guest:My wife was vegan for my wife was vegetarian for 23 years.

00:32:38Guest:She stopped vegan for three.

00:32:39Guest:She started eating meat again during the pandemic.

00:32:42Guest:Why?

00:32:43Guest:But not a lot.

00:32:43Guest:She still eats very, very, very little, if any, red meat.

00:32:47Marc:It wasn't even an ethical thing for me.

00:32:48Marc:I just want to see if I get my numbers down.

00:32:50Guest:Yeah, she did it.

00:32:51Guest:She just has never felt great when she ate red meat.

00:32:56Guest:So she never ate a lot of red meat anyhow.

00:33:00Guest:And then she went just to seafood, and then she stopped seafood.

00:33:04Guest:And now she eats a little bit of seafood again and occasional chicken kind of thing.

00:33:07Marc:Yeah, I'm not being terribly hard on myself, but I do like the control element of it.

00:33:12Marc:Because I got hold of...

00:33:15Marc:Do you remember Angelica Kitchen?

00:33:16Marc:Yeah.

00:33:17Marc:Yeah.

00:33:17Marc:I got hold of her cookbook, which is sort of a basic macro balance, you know, in terms of putting stuff together.

00:33:23Marc:Right.

00:33:23Marc:And I'm kind of into it, man.

00:33:25Guest:No, no.

00:33:26Guest:Angelica Kitchen was a great restaurant.

00:33:27Marc:Yeah.

00:33:27Marc:Making my own sauerkraut.

00:33:29Marc:Yeah.

00:33:30Marc:Fermenting.

00:33:30Marc:Oh, it's fun.

00:33:31Marc:Fermenting's fun.

00:33:32Marc:I love to ferment.

00:33:33Marc:Yeah.

00:33:33Marc:Yeah, I'm not going nuts.

00:33:36Marc:Go nuts.

00:33:36Marc:Really?

00:33:37Marc:Mark, go nuts.

00:33:38Guest:Really?

00:33:38Guest:Just get all the little jars?

00:33:39Guest:Yeah, do it.

00:33:40Guest:It's fun.

00:33:41Guest:And then you get all the... There's tons of health benefits, man.

00:33:44Guest:You get great gut health and the probiotics.

00:33:47Guest:Do we know that for sure?

00:33:48Guest:I mean...

00:33:50Guest:I mean, here's what I'm going to say.

00:33:51Guest:I don't know if you know anything for sure.

00:33:54Guest:I tend to, like, my grandfather lived 103 years old.

00:33:56Marc:Oh, so you're good.

00:33:57Guest:That's what it's all about.

00:33:58Guest:That side.

00:33:59Guest:Like, I'm good on one side, bad on the other.

00:34:01Guest:But he ate for breakfast every day.

00:34:05Guest:He ate eggs and rye toast with goose fat.

00:34:09Guest:Like every day.

00:34:10Guest:And, but he also made his own sauerkraut.

00:34:16Guest:Oh yeah.

00:34:16Guest:He didn't eat any packaged foods.

00:34:19Guest:He always cooked his own meals.

00:34:22Guest:Very little sugar.

00:34:23Guest:That's the thing there, I think.

00:34:24Guest:You know, and, and he was healthy.

00:34:26Guest:Yeah.

00:34:27Guest:He died during the pandemic, actually.

00:34:29Guest:At 103?

00:34:31Guest:At 103.

00:34:32Guest:But he lived on his own till he was 102.

00:34:36Guest:Good brain.

00:34:37Guest:Yeah, and was mentally fine.

00:34:38Guest:Like, his body just eventually gave out.

00:34:40Guest:Like, his bones just gave out.

00:34:42Marc:Yeah, I don't know about all that, the gut health.

00:34:46Marc:Because I'm drinking a gallon of coffee a day.

00:34:48Marc:Same.

00:34:49Marc:And, you know, I don't know what the gut... I think a lot of it's a racket.

00:34:52Guest:A lot of it's a racket, but I think also there is, you know...

00:34:56Guest:Like, look, I did two cookbooks called Fix It With Food.

00:34:59Guest:Yeah, so you had a big shift, right?

00:35:01Guest:Yeah, I mean, I have... About 25 years ago, I found out I had discoid lupus and RA.

00:35:09Marc:That can be bad.

00:35:10Guest:Yeah, and so, but I mean, I have the external lupus, not the as bad one, but like basically...

00:35:17Guest:if i don't if my diet gets wonky if i'm out in the sun too long you know i start feeling the the effects yeah so um and in my early 30s and late 20s i just like whatever i just kind of plowed through it and then as i got older you know i was like oh this is starting to affect me more huh and i didn't want to go on meds yeah you know i'm already on you know i i i

00:35:40Guest:genetically have a little bit high cholesterol that's what i got yeah so i take a cholesterol pill um and i just didn't want to take any medication so i started tweaking my diet yeah um and finding out what my triggers were and it turned out for me it ended up being dairy dairy and sugar yeah when i eat those two things my joints and everything hurt really yeah so like i do think that

00:36:06Guest:You know, gut health, this, that, the other thing.

00:36:09Guest:Who the hell knows?

00:36:10Guest:But sugar we know.

00:36:11Guest:Sugar we know.

00:36:11Guest:Yeah.

00:36:12Guest:And then ultimately it's like one thing I do know is, and everybody I think knows, they just choose not to, food, what you put in your body is what you get out of your body.

00:36:24Guest:You eat like shit, you feel like shit.

00:36:26Marc:You eat good, you feel good.

00:36:28Marc:Well, that's the thing.

00:36:28Marc:That was what I wanted to see with the cholesterol.

00:36:31Marc:I guess we'll just talk like old men for a minute.

00:36:32Marc:But I...

00:36:34Marc:This is what we do.

00:36:35Marc:I got a friend who I see now, like a friend I've known forever.

00:36:38Marc:He's like 10 minutes on health and that's it.

00:36:40Marc:Then we're moving to another subject.

00:36:42Marc:I'm starting the clock.

00:36:43Marc:Let's go.

00:36:45Marc:So I got a, but so like I get this colonoscopy so I know I'm clean, right?

00:36:51Marc:So I'm like, I'm going to do vegan.

00:36:52Marc:You know, I'm on 10 milligrams of statin.

00:36:54Marc:That's what I was on.

00:36:55Marc:Okay.

00:36:55Marc:And my LDL usually lingers around 125, 130.

00:36:59Marc:So it's not horrible, right?

00:37:00Marc:So I'm like, I just want to see.

00:37:02Marc:So I'm on the statin and I do a week on vegan.

00:37:04Marc:And I got a blood test.

00:37:05Marc:It went down to 80.

00:37:07Marc:That's on the statin.

00:37:08Guest:That's interesting.

00:37:09Marc:And then, like I said, well, fuck it.

00:37:10Marc:I'll get off the statin.

00:37:11Marc:I'll go three months vegan.

00:37:12Marc:And it just went up to 100.

00:37:14Marc:And because of my HDL, the balance to ratio, it got me off of meds.

00:37:18Marc:So I was like, well, fuck it.

00:37:19Marc:I can eat like this.

00:37:20Guest:See, now, because my wife was a vegan, I ate healthy at least a couple days a week.

00:37:26Guest:Right.

00:37:26Guest:Because, I mean, I'm a carnivore.

00:37:27Guest:I mean, I eat a lot of.

00:37:28Marc:It seemed like you were meat-focused.

00:37:31Guest:I like meat.

00:37:32Guest:I'm a meat guy.

00:37:32Guest:Yeah, I'm meat-centric.

00:37:34Guest:I mean, I grew up in Cleveland.

00:37:37Guest:We didn't know what a green vegetable was.

00:37:39Guest:I'm Greek and Sicilian, so we ate a lot of bitter greens and stuff.

00:37:44Guest:But I was like the weird kid on the street.

00:37:46Guest:What the hell is that?

00:37:47Guest:That's a vegetable guy.

00:37:49Guest:You should try it.

00:37:49Guest:So the dandelion greens you ate?

00:37:51Guest:Oh, yeah, dandelion, escarole, all those kind of greens.

00:37:54Guest:Just boiled?

00:37:55Guest:Sautéed.

00:37:56Guest:My mom is a real good cook.

00:37:58Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:59Guest:But, you know, when I went, when my cholesterol got weird, I'm like, oh, maybe it's because I eat too much meat.

00:38:07Guest:You know, they say you eat too much meat.

00:38:09Guest:So I went vegan for two months.

00:38:11Guest:My numbers didn't change at all.

00:38:13Guest:Interesting.

00:38:13Guest:Nothing changed.

00:38:14Marc:So you're locked in.

00:38:15Marc:See, I don't know.

00:38:15Marc:See, I'm going to go back.

00:38:16Guest:But my mom, you know, my mother is...

00:38:19Guest:I have a hilarious family.

00:38:20Guest:My dad is six foot four and about 195 pounds.

00:38:23Guest:And my mom is four foot 10.

00:38:27Guest:And like, just since she's turned 80 is now over a hundred pounds there.

00:38:32Guest:They exercise healthy.

00:38:33Guest:And my dad was a runner.

00:38:35Guest:Yeah.

00:38:35Guest:The Greeks and Italians.

00:38:37Guest:And you know, my dad was like, like ran eight miles a day.

00:38:40Guest:They're healthy people.

00:38:42Guest:Um, um,

00:38:43Guest:But my mom has high cholesterol.

00:38:45Guest:Like if you look at her, you'd be like, and she eats healthy.

00:38:49Marc:I mean, healthy, healthy.

00:38:50Marc:Well, that's the other thing about these, you know, these paleo people and there are people literally eating only meat.

00:38:56Marc:That's not good.

00:38:57Marc:Well, right.

00:38:57Marc:But they may, there might be benefits to it.

00:38:59Guest:Maybe.

00:39:00Marc:I don't know.

00:39:00Marc:But you've got to take into consideration that some people have fucking heart disease and you're telling them to, you know, and...

00:39:06Marc:Well, you could sit around and go on the internet all day long, but, you know, docs say, look, you got a little heart disease.

00:39:11Marc:Don't eat so much of that.

00:39:13Guest:Yeah, and, like, I'm of the Julia Child's thought process.

00:39:16Guest:Everything in moderation, including moderation.

00:39:18Guest:Yeah.

00:39:18Guest:You know, it's like, look, I know dairy...

00:39:22Guest:fucks me up i don't eat any of it you know but occasionally i'm with my granddaughter and she wants ice cream and i love ice cream gotta eat ice so i have ice cream sure and i know that the next day now i know what my triggers are so like i know the next day i'm going to be a little achy whatever really like it's kind of like you know i feel hung over it's kind well i was going to say like i know that if i have two old fashions the next day i'm good if i have three old fashions the next day i'm not good you know

00:39:47Guest:Yeah.

00:39:47Guest:But sometimes I still have three old fashions.

00:39:50Marc:Well, you got to live a little.

00:39:51Marc:Yeah.

00:39:51Marc:You're going to have to, you just have to take the hit.

00:39:54Marc:Yeah.

00:39:54Marc:So the other question I wanted to open, uh, start out with is I remember seeing like, there's this thing.

00:39:59Marc:I remember I, I've interviewed some of your peers, uh,

00:40:03Marc:But we talk about this egg thing, you know, like I remember seeing a top chef once where, you know, the final challenge was the perfect egg business.

00:40:12Marc:Now, what is it about this perfect egg business?

00:40:15Marc:It's a true business, man.

00:40:16Marc:It's like so.

00:40:18Guest:Look, an egg to cook an egg properly.

00:40:22Guest:It takes a lot of finesse.

00:40:25Guest:And so like when young cooks would come to our restaurant, like Lola, our fine dining restaurant, the first day they got there, I would be like, make me a French omelet, make me a soft scramble.

00:40:38Guest:make me a sunny side up.

00:40:40Guest:That was the test.

00:40:42Guest:And it wasn't, like, and everybody likes their eggs different.

00:40:46Guest:It's not about how you like your eggs.

00:40:47Guest:This isn't about how you like your eggs.

00:40:49Guest:Like, I like those eggs just how they are.

00:40:51Guest:Like, I like an omelet that has no color and is a little bit creamy in the center.

00:40:56Guest:Yeah.

00:40:56Guest:I like very soft custardy eggs.

00:40:58Guest:Yeah.

00:40:59Guest:Now, I do like a hard fried egg because that's how I grew up eating them with my grandfather, like crispy on the bottom.

00:41:04Guest:Yeah, I like that too.

00:41:04Guest:And runny on the top.

00:41:05Guest:Like, we used to call them dippy eggs when we were kids.

00:41:07Marc:Well, I like a broken yolk.

00:41:09Guest:I don't mind a broken yolk either.

00:41:10Guest:Like, I just love eggs.

00:41:12Guest:But the test was to see if you had the control of the heat of the pan and the finesse with your hands to do these three things perfect.

00:41:23Guest:And if you did, there was a very good chance that I could then teach you how to be a great cook.

00:41:30Guest:Okay.

00:41:30Guest:If you really struggled with the...

00:41:35Guest:Like, if someone showed me passion, but they struggled with the ability to control the heat of the pan and the hand skills and dexterity to do these things, I would still hire them.

00:41:47Guest:But maybe they start in the pantry.

00:41:50Guest:Or maybe they start in a place where we have to get them to develop these skills.

00:41:55Guest:Because you can't teach passion.

00:41:58Guest:You could teach technique.

00:41:59Guest:You could teach skill.

00:42:00Guest:You could teach all those things.

00:42:01Guest:It's like...

00:42:02Guest:I used to tell people that worked for me that sometimes did the hiring, some of my chefs, I'm like, an asshole is an asshole.

00:42:10Guest:You can't teach somebody to be like, they're coming to us already that way.

00:42:16Guest:And that's not unusual in your profession.

00:42:18Guest:No.

00:42:18Guest:So we want to hire good people.

00:42:20Guest:Right.

00:42:21Guest:And the rest we could show them.

00:42:23Guest:Right.

00:42:24Guest:But the egg test was just to see where they were with their ability.

00:42:29Right.

00:42:29Marc:But the asshole factor in the world of chefs, sometimes, you know, assholes do all right.

00:42:37Marc:Yeah.

00:42:39Marc:I can name several.

00:42:40Guest:Eventually, I do eventually think it bites them all, though.

00:42:44Guest:You know, I think if you are...

00:42:47Guest:I mean, look, I'll be 54 in September.

00:42:51Guest:When I was coming up, it was a different world.

00:42:54Guest:It was very aggressive.

00:42:56Guest:Most of the chefs were European.

00:42:58Guest:They yelled.

00:42:59Guest:They screamed.

00:42:59Guest:They prodded you with meat forks.

00:43:02Guest:I mean, they burnt you intentionally.

00:43:04Guest:It was insane.

00:43:06Guest:It was like, what am I doing?

00:43:08Guest:They burnt you intentionally.

00:43:10Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:43:10Guest:I had a French chef...

00:43:12Guest:that i worked for and he would move he'd walk over to my station and move the pans down just enough so my arm would hit the handle yeah that just came out of the oven and it would like stick to my flesh you know and i'd like look over and he'd be like well you shouldn't have your sleeves rolled up oh you know what's like conditional training yeah i'm like oh my god you remember though didn't you i did i mean i still rolled my sleeves off because i was a prick right but you know um

00:43:40Guest:I remember talking to my... I come from a very blue-collar family.

00:43:44Guest:My grandfather was a pipe fitter.

00:43:45Guest:My dad worked at Ford.

00:43:47Guest:And I was a pretty good wrestler growing up as a kid.

00:43:50Guest:And I said to my dad, I'm like, thank God you and Pap molded me and then all those years of wrestling.

00:43:58Guest:Because I don't know if I could...

00:44:01Guest:Deal with this otherwise.

00:44:03Guest:But then the message that it sent to me is, like, I learned a ton from these chefs, and I would never say I wouldn't do it again.

00:44:10Guest:I would do it tomorrow.

00:44:11Guest:But I also realized that this isn't how I wanted to run my kitchens.

00:44:14Marc:Well, let's talk about the temperament, because, like, you know, I don't know much about Cleveland, but I always liked it when I worked there, and it just so happened that my experience of Cleveland—

00:44:27Marc:over the years that I've done stand-up there, was always that block where you had restaurants.

00:44:32Marc:Yeah.

00:44:32Marc:So, you know, but I would go to Slimans.

00:44:37Marc:Oh, it's awesome.

00:44:38Marc:You know, like, you know, I'd go do radio, and they'd drive us over to Slimans for corned beef at 10 in the morning.

00:44:44Marc:The best.

00:44:45Marc:And it's packed out.

00:44:46Marc:You're getting corned beef and eggs.

00:44:47Marc:Packed.

00:44:48Marc:Yeah.

00:44:48Marc:Packed.

00:44:48Marc:And then I remembered there was a grilled cheese restaurant.

00:44:51Marc:Melt.

00:44:52Marc:Yeah.

00:44:52Marc:That was a thing.

00:44:53Marc:Definitely.

00:44:54Marc:But so growing up there, like you're 54.

00:44:57Marc:So do you remember it as a thriving city?

00:44:59Guest:No.

00:45:00Guest:Yeah.

00:45:01Guest:No.

00:45:01Guest:I mean, you know, my grandfather grew up in what ended up being a rough part of town outside of, I mean, technically it was Cleveland Heights, but it was off a street called Noble.

00:45:14Guest:Yeah.

00:45:15Yeah.

00:45:15Guest:You know, and it was a blue collar town.

00:45:18Guest:Right.

00:45:19Guest:And downtown kind of died.

00:45:20Guest:Everybody moved out to the suburbs.

00:45:22Guest:It already happened?

00:45:23Guest:Yeah.

00:45:24Guest:I mean, like we would go to the Browns games and the Indians games back then.

00:45:28Guest:And the Cavs weren't even in downtown Cleveland.

00:45:31Guest:And my grandmother worked downtown at Higby's.

00:45:34Guest:And the West Side Market was very near downtown.

00:45:38Guest:So I was downtown quite a bit.

00:45:40Guest:But by that time, people had moved to the suburbs.

00:45:46Guest:And then when I moved home from New York in 90, shortly after that, I was at a restaurant in the suburbs.

00:45:56Guest:And then my first chef job was in 1992 in a place in the city called Piccolo Mondo.

00:46:01Guest:And that kind of started the gentrification downtown.

00:46:04Marc:Huh.

00:46:04Marc:So when you're growing up, what is the plan?

00:46:07Marc:So you're a wrestler, you got siblings?

00:46:09Marc:I have a sister.

00:46:10Marc:And you're a wrestler and you're just a, what, not a jockey guy, but what?

00:46:13Guest:No, I, I mean, I was a little jockey, but I was kind of one of those jockey kids that got along with everybody.

00:46:19Guest:And, uh,

00:46:20Guest:You know, I went to a high school called St.

00:46:24Guest:Edwards, which was and still is the number one wrestling school in the country.

00:46:29Guest:Catholic high school?

00:46:30Guest:Catholic high school.

00:46:31Marc:You grew up Catholic?

00:46:32Guest:I grew up Catholic.

00:46:33Guest:Yeah, you know, I'm a little scarred.

00:46:37Guest:Like real Catholic?

00:46:38Guest:I was like guilt.

00:46:38Guest:Like a lot of guilt.

00:46:39Guest:I had a lot of guilt in my life as a child.

00:46:41Marc:But you believed there was a hell and everything else?

00:46:44Marc:Yeah, yeah, you know.

00:46:46Guest:Yeah.

00:46:47Guest:So the...

00:46:50Guest:I went to the school, was the best wrestling school in the country, and, you know, everybody that went to that school got a scholarship to college, which I needed to get because I came from a, you know, blue-collar middle-class family.

00:47:01Guest:Yeah.

00:47:02Guest:And my junior year, I had a significant injury.

00:47:06Guest:I broke a plate and 14 screws in my arm and dislocated my elbow and blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:47:11Marc:That's from wrestling?

00:47:12Guest:Wrestling.

00:47:12Guest:Oh, my God.

00:47:13Guest:And then tried to come back from it my senior year.

00:47:15Guest:Now...

00:47:16Guest:I've been wrestling since I was six, so I tried to come back my senior year and broke the plate in my arm.

00:47:21Guest:Yeah.

00:47:22Guest:So then back into surgery, year and eight months in a cast, all my scholarships were gone, started working in restaurants to help pay for college, fell in love with the business, and here I am.

00:47:32Marc:But what was that?

00:47:33Marc:Where did you know that...

00:47:35Marc:You liked it?

00:47:36Marc:Because, like, I always liked it, but I never, like, I worked in restaurants when I was high school, but they weren't high-end restaurants.

00:47:43Marc:It was just, you know, I did grill work.

00:47:45Guest:Yeah, I mean, I did grill work to start and then worked in a nicer place after that.

00:47:48Guest:The minute I was in the restaurants, I, like, I love this.

00:47:51Guest:The pace?

00:47:52Guest:The pace, the, you know, I'm ADD, so it was like...

00:47:56Guest:So when he saw 10, 12, 15 dupes on the line, you're like, here we go.

00:48:00Guest:Right.

00:48:01Guest:And then every like eight minutes you have a new thing.

00:48:03Guest:So it was like, you know, it's, I feel like a lot of chefs are probably ADD.

00:48:07Guest:Yeah.

00:48:08Guest:Yeah.

00:48:08Guest:Because it's, it's our brain just, you're like, oh,

00:48:11Guest:You know, you never have that squirrel moment because so much is going on and you always get like a new little toy, like essentially.

00:48:18Guest:Sure.

00:48:19Guest:You know, next dish, next dish, next dish, next dish.

00:48:22Guest:Yeah.

00:48:23Guest:So it's.

00:48:24Guest:But you were doing grill stuff first?

00:48:25Guest:Yeah.

00:48:26Guest:You know, my buddy's dad owned a barbecue joint.

00:48:28Guest:Yeah.

00:48:29Guest:I worked at the barbecue joint and, but I fell in love with the business.

00:48:32Guest:I come home.

00:48:33Guest:I tell my mom and dad that, you know, at the time there were only two culinary schools.

00:48:37Guest:There was a CIA and.

00:48:38Guest:Hyde Park, New York, and there was Johnson & Wales in Rhode Island.

00:48:42Guest:And I tell my mom and dad, I think I want to go to culinary school to be a chef.

00:48:45Guest:Now, in 1985, there was no Food Network.

00:48:50Guest:There was no Celebrity Chef.

00:48:52Guest:There were two fine dining restaurants in Cleveland that now they'd argue it.

00:49:00Guest:But...

00:49:01Guest:My dad lost his mind.

00:49:03Guest:He's like, no, you're not going to school to be a laborer.

00:49:08Guest:You're going to go to college because, you know.

00:49:12Marc:But that's interesting because he saw it that way because that's sort of true because I would say that probably 80% of the people that come out of those schools become managerial chefs at restaurants, executive chefs at, you know, function places, right?

00:49:24Guest:Well, yeah, and back then, like—

00:49:26Guest:you know, it was, you're getting an associate's degree.

00:49:29Guest:Like my dad looked at it like, you know, your grandfather was a pipe fitter.

00:49:32Guest:You're basically just, you're learning, you're a pipe fitter with a different skill or whatever.

00:49:37Guest:And that was great for my grandfather and it's great for tons of people.

00:49:40Guest:But I just, he didn't, he wanted me to go to college and get a,

00:49:44Guest:traditional degree and sure there you know but so is this way he just couldn't see past you being a cook no i was going to school to be a cook yeah and then i you know he made me go to cleveland state i went to cleveland state for a semester and got a point two not a two point a point two and he said how did you get a point two i said i don't know i didn't go to a single class but someone gave me a d which i thought was very kind of yeah

00:50:06Guest:And then my mother, who was the one that everyone was afraid of in the house, said, this is bullshit.

00:50:12Guest:He's going to culinary school.

00:50:13Guest:It's what he wants to do.

00:50:14Guest:Like she made it happen.

00:50:16Guest:I went to culinary school and it obviously worked out good.

00:50:19Guest:Which one?

00:50:20Guest:I went to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park.

00:50:23Guest:Yeah.

00:50:23Guest:And then, you know, eventually my father worked for me.

00:50:26Guest:So it worked great.

00:50:27Yeah.

00:50:27Guest:What did he do for you?

00:50:29Marc:He did the books.

00:50:30Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:50:31Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:50:32Marc:So now, like, we're, because now I think it's something new has happened in the world of people's understanding of chefs in that, you know, we, like the Food Channel and the Food Network, I mean, I remember when Emeril came around, you know, it was just sort of like everybody was, bam!

00:50:49Guest:Oh, it was crazy.

00:50:50Guest:I mean, I started on Food Network in 1998, so I was there for the whole Emeril

00:50:55Guest:thing yeah you know and he seemed like a good guy great guy yeah but now with the popularity of the bear you know people are like oh that's that's what's going on and it's it how how true to it is is it it's a little bit more frenetic i mean it's television but like i would say season two of the bear much more realistic than season one of the bear right loved both seasons um but like some of the things that you see in season two

00:51:24Guest:remind me of some of the things that would happen when I was coming up in the business.

00:51:30Guest:Like, you know, you, you start a job and you basically, you cut leaks for a month and it's like until you're proved that you could cut the perfect leaks, you know, kind of like how cousin polished silverware, you know, like that's how those kinds of restaurants always worked.

00:51:44Marc:So when you go to culinary school, I mean, like the thing I notice about chefs and just in about like, you know, what I do in comedy is that, you know, it is a singular kind of expressive profession.

00:51:56Marc:It is hyper competitive.

00:51:58Marc:There are ways for you to stand out because of your particular craft, even though everybody learns basically the same way at a certain level.

00:52:05Marc:Right.

00:52:06Marc:100 percent.

00:52:07Marc:And and also there's there's a burnout rate.

00:52:10Marc:There's drugs.

00:52:11Marc:There's there's all of that stuff.

00:52:12Marc:But it is a outside of skill.

00:52:15Marc:It's a culture of personalities.

00:52:17Marc:Very strong ones.

00:52:19Marc:Yeah, I think for television.

00:52:20Marc:But I mean, but it just seems like if you're going to be in the game to to win it.

00:52:25Marc:The creativity and also the accessibility, it's very personal.

00:52:32Guest:Yeah.

00:52:33Guest:Like, look, you go to school.

00:52:36Guest:You could work for great chefs.

00:52:37Guest:You could do all those things.

00:52:38Guest:But ultimately, you're never going to have...

00:52:42Guest:grand success if you're not creative um if you don't have your own thoughts like a chef that just copycats other chefs is never going to be ultimately a super famous or successful chef because you're just ripping off other people's shit it'd be like a comedian you know like if you got up and just who's your favorite who was your favorite comedian as a kid

00:53:05Marc:Oh, coming up?

00:53:06Marc:Yeah.

00:53:07Marc:Well, you know, like, you know, Richard Pryor.

00:53:09Guest:Okay.

00:53:09Guest:So like if you just went up and did Richard Pryor jokes for two hours, people might laugh, but you're never going to become famous during Richard Pryor.

00:53:17Guest:And they'd wonder why I was talking from a black perspective.

00:53:20Guest:Yeah.

00:53:20Guest:Well, also like musicians, you know, there's a cover band is never going to be famous.

00:53:25Guest:They can make a living.

00:53:26Guest:Sure.

00:53:27Marc:But, you know, they're never going to be Van Halen.

00:53:29Marc:But there's also the same thing with music or with comedy is that, you know, there are basics that you learn and there is an evolution of style.

00:53:39Marc:But I like because I always heard like, look, I got Julia Child's cookbook and I was going to try to do stuff, but I don't like all that butter, you know.

00:53:47Marc:But.

00:53:48Marc:But it's still, when you go to chef school, right, it's still French cooking, right?

00:53:52Marc:Yeah.

00:53:53Guest:But everything's based around French technique for the most part.

00:53:56Guest:Why is that?

00:53:57Guest:Because they were technicians.

00:53:59Guest:Like, I mean, the Italians didn't need to be as technicians as much.

00:54:02Guest:Because they just throw it in.

00:54:03Guest:And they had beautiful product.

00:54:05Guest:The French had shitty meats and, you know, their product wasn't as good.

00:54:09Guest:So they needed the beurblanks and they needed the hollandaise and the beurnaise.

00:54:14Guest:And they were...

00:54:16Guest:They covered up the lack of product that they got in places like Italy and Greece with incredible sauce work technique.

00:54:25Marc:Okay.

00:54:25Marc:So it was all to hide rancid meat?

00:54:28Guest:Yeah, basically.

00:54:29Guest:But now if you mix...

00:54:33Guest:those great techniques that the French have with the products that you're able to get in America, that's when, in my opinion, you end up with something special, and then you throw creativity into it, and it takes it to another level.

00:54:45Marc:So now, when you go to...

00:54:49Marc:to school for this stuff i mean is it is it jarring it's a whole new thing you're not there's you're not all you know is you work in a you know a couple of restaurants and you know you got to what you got to get your outfit and you got to get your knife got a dress funny um

00:55:04Guest:You know, they give you the checks, they give you the chef coat, they give you the knives.

00:55:07Guest:And then, you know, you go through the classes in kind of an organized fashion, you know, where it starts with skills and then it moves into international.

00:55:15Guest:And then, you know, with every class that you take, it becomes a little bit more of a refined thought process.

00:55:21Guest:They try to show you as many different cuisines as you can.

00:55:23Guest:They can.

00:55:24Marc:But are you thinking from the very beginning, like, I'm going to push the envelope on this?

00:55:28Guest:Yeah.

00:55:29Guest:A hundred percent.

00:55:30Guest:That's how my brain works.

00:55:31Guest:Like I can't help myself.

00:55:32Marc:But you learn the skills and that you have to have a certain knack for that.

00:55:35Marc:There are some people I imagine that no matter what they do or how long they do it, they're not going to be able to just like do that dicing business.

00:55:42Guest:Or they're just going to be tech.

00:55:43Guest:Like maybe they're great at the dicing, but not the creativity.

00:55:46Guest:So they end up being great sous chefs and great technicians or maybe a hotel chef or, you know, something of that nature.

00:55:53Guest:But it's, it's, uh,

00:55:56Guest:Like you, my brain was always like when I would even see a technique, I'd be like, okay, now how can I turn this into something else?

00:56:06Guest:Yeah.

00:56:07Guest:Like, so, but...

00:56:09Guest:You know, what's happened a little bit now with the younger cooks is they want to do the creative stuff before they know the techniques.

00:56:15Guest:Yeah.

00:56:16Guest:And you can't.

00:56:16Guest:Yeah.

00:56:17Guest:You know, it's like a painter.

00:56:18Guest:You can't say like, oh, I'm an abstract artist.

00:56:21Guest:Well, you can't paint a line, dude.

00:56:22Marc:Right.

00:56:23Marc:You got to know how to paint.

00:56:24Marc:Like, that's always the thing with poetry.

00:56:26Marc:With the arts that have some wiggle room.

00:56:28Marc:Right.

00:56:29Marc:You know, people think like, I'm just going to start at the end.

00:56:31Guest:Yeah.

00:56:31Marc:I'm just going to start at the end.

00:56:32Marc:Yeah.

00:56:33Marc:But so did you guys like, are there classmates of yours that became big chefs?

00:56:38No.

00:56:38Guest:Um, yeah, I'm a lot of successful chefs in my classmates.

00:56:41Guest:Um, you know, from a television standpoint, kind of, or critically acclaimed, a couple, a couple.

00:56:49Guest:I mean, there's a kid named David Adjie.

00:56:51Guest:He's in Toronto, but he's owned some very successful restaurants in Toronto.

00:56:56Guest:There's been some successful chefs.

00:56:58Guest:Um, I mean, I've been fortunate enough to, to,

00:57:02Guest:you know have a lot of success but you know it's it's look it's it's like anything else you have to be good at what you do obviously that's the baseline and then you need a little bit of luck a little bit of timing a little bit of those things like my vision but yeah and and when i mean when i was we opened lola in 1997 i was 27 years old that's crazy yeah crazy and then in 1998

00:57:26Guest:Food and Wine named me one of the best new chefs in America.

00:57:29Guest:Food Network gave me a show.

00:57:31Guest:And Bon Appetit said we were one of the top 10, top 50 restaurants in the country and one of the top 10 new restaurants in the country.

00:57:39Guest:So all that happened in 98.

00:57:40Guest:I was like, holy shit, what's going on?

00:57:42Guest:27.

00:57:43Guest:And my world changed.

00:57:44Marc:But how long do you go to culinary school?

00:57:47Guest:Two years.

00:57:47Marc:So it's just two years.

00:57:49Marc:And then you're done.

00:57:49Marc:Now, where do you learn...

00:57:53Marc:The trajectory of now I got to get some guys to bankroll my vision for a restaurant I got to put together.

00:58:01Marc:Like, how do you, like, when you're thinking about this stuff, what is going on in the culture that makes you decide what you're going to do at Lola?

00:58:08Marc:You know, you got to have some culture.

00:58:09Guest:Yeah, well, there was six years in between graduation and that.

00:58:13Guest:Well, what'd you do?

00:58:14Guest:So I was, I took a job.

00:58:16Guest:The big mistake a lot of young cooks make, they get out of school and they want to get a paycheck.

00:58:20Guest:Right.

00:58:20Guest:I got out of school and I said, I want to work for this person.

00:58:22Guest:Who was that?

00:58:23Guest:I didn't give a shit what they paid me.

00:58:24Guest:There was a guy in Cleveland named Mark Sherry.

00:58:26Guest:He was very creative.

00:58:27Guest:Yeah.

00:58:28Guest:Very talented.

00:58:29Guest:And then I went from him to a guy named Carl Quagliotta.

00:58:31Marc:What do you learn from that guy?

00:58:32Marc:Like, what made you, what drew you to that guy?

00:58:34Guest:Like, what dish?

00:58:35Guest:They, it wasn't, it wasn't even the dishes.

00:58:37Guest:It was the mindset of,

00:58:39Guest:Mark taught me that regardless of what you knew, if you didn't buy the best product,

00:58:51Guest:you're fucked like yeah like you have to start with something great to end up with something great now you could start with something good and make it very good but it's hard to start with something crappy and make it great right so i learned a lot about purchasing and searching and working with farmers and building relationships building relationships i learned a lot of that from mark and then when i went and worked for carl

00:59:15Guest:Carl came from an old-school Italian restaurateur, but he also had butchers in the family.

00:59:20Guest:So he taught me how to break down whole...

00:59:25Guest:lambs and hogs and you know there was a bandsaw in the restaurant we would like cut all our own meats and steaks yeah yeah yeah and he taught me how to use like every part of the animal which which is then you learn how to make money and then you learn how to control things and then it creates another creative valve in your head isn't that french thinking too yeah i think french and italian so what do you do with all those bones stock okay

00:59:52Guest:And what do you do with the tongue?

00:59:54Guest:You braise it and shave it onto a sandwich.

00:59:57Guest:Or smoke it.

00:59:58Guest:You know?

00:59:59Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:00:00Guest:You throw out the eyes, though.

01:00:01Guest:Yeah, I mean, my uncles would've ate them, but that's a whole different story.

01:00:06Marc:It's like, there's always that guy, it's like, that's the best part.

01:00:08Guest:Yeah, but like, I mean, like at Mabel's, where you probably went in Cleveland across from Hilarity's, it's like, you know, we did crispy pig ears.

01:00:15Guest:We did...

01:00:15Guest:We did, you know, the skin, the chicharrones.

01:00:18Guest:We did the cheeks.

01:00:20Guest:We did, you know, and all that was learned.

01:00:24Guest:Variations of that were learned for when I worked for Carl.

01:00:26Guest:It was like, he is like, you want to make money in the restaurant business and still serve great food?

01:00:31Guest:This is how you do it.

01:00:32Guest:You have to learn how to butcher and how to use everything.

01:00:36Marc:You know that guy up in Canada?

01:00:38Marc:That Pied de Cochon.

01:00:39Marc:Oh, Pied de Cochon, yeah.

01:00:41Marc:That guy, like, you know, when I first ate there, because I go to Montreal, I used to go to the festival once a year, and I'd go to that place, and it was like, what the fuck am I eating?

01:00:48Marc:Yeah, a lot of foie gras and duck in a can.

01:00:50Marc:It's crazy the foie gras, man.

01:00:52Marc:But also he does the whole pig's head.

01:00:54Marc:Yep.

01:00:54Marc:And your guy, Jonathan, used to do a whole pig's head.

01:00:57Marc:Yep.

01:00:57Marc:Because I used to, you know, I'd go eat at the Greenhouse Tavern.

01:01:01Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:02Marc:But he started with you.

01:01:03Marc:He did.

01:01:04Marc:Yeah, Johnny worked for me for a good amount of time.

01:01:06Marc:And that was like all meat.

01:01:08Marc:Yeah.

01:01:08Marc:And then the last time I went there, it was like, literally, dude, I was so excited.

01:01:12Marc:I was working at, it was a theater.

01:01:14Marc:I used to do, you know Nick from Hilarity?

01:01:16Marc:Very well.

01:01:17Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:01:17Marc:Where he's Greek.

01:01:18Marc:I mean, like, you know.

01:01:19Marc:Right, great guy.

01:01:20Guest:We're people.

01:01:20Marc:He makes a good steak over there.

01:01:22Marc:Yeah.

01:01:22Marc:But, you know, I went in there because I'd always go to either Lola or to Jonathan's place, but like something was off.

01:01:29Marc:You know, the food was off and like he didn't seem right.

01:01:32Marc:And it was like literally days before he closed down.

01:01:34Marc:But I guess that's the record.

01:01:35Guest:He's in Chicago now.

01:01:36Guest:He's doing good.

01:01:37Guest:He's a great kid.

01:01:38Guest:I mean, he worked for me from when he was a kid and then I watched him grow and then we actually helped him find the greenhouse.

01:01:43Guest:The greenhouse location...

01:01:44Guest:we had the location.

01:01:46Guest:We were going to do something there.

01:01:47Marc:It's like two doors down.

01:01:48Guest:Yeah.

01:01:49Guest:And then I said, Johnny, you know, like, I'm not ready to open another place.

01:01:52Guest:We have first rights to this place.

01:01:54Guest:Put your restaurant here.

01:01:56Guest:So...

01:01:58Marc:So you learn how to butcher.

01:01:59Marc:You learn how to purchase and order and build and network and understand that, you know, freshness and quality goods.

01:02:06Marc:But like, how do you learn?

01:02:07Marc:Is this something you learned in school?

01:02:09Marc:Like, it seems to me like I didn't know about all these.

01:02:11Marc:I kind of knew about these stations.

01:02:13Marc:Like you say pantry.

01:02:15Marc:Right.

01:02:15Marc:Or you say, you know, like a bathroom.

01:02:17Marc:But you have to have all this within the restaurant, right?

01:02:21Guest:Correct.

01:02:22Guest:I mean, well, depends on the level of restaurant you are.

01:02:24Guest:Like, I mean, Lola was an extreme.

01:02:26Guest:Like, basically with Lola, we made a decision.

01:02:30Guest:We had other restaurants, too, so that helped.

01:02:33Guest:But...

01:02:33Guest:We made a decision that Mabel's or Lola was basically going to be a breakeven restaurant and it was there for us to hang our hat.

01:02:40Guest:Yeah.

01:02:41Guest:And to teach the next generation of young cooks how to cook.

01:02:44Guest:So we had a full butcher department.

01:02:47Guest:We had a full pastry department.

01:02:49Guest:We like, I mean, you know, we had four, three to four people that worked in our pastry department at all times, sometimes up to five.

01:02:55Guest:In Cleveland, most people bought their pastries.

01:02:58Guest:Right.

01:02:58Guest:You know, we had a butcher department.

01:03:00Guest:We made all of our own salamis, prosciuttos, cured meats, butchered our own steaks, like all that kind of stuff.

01:03:05Marc:So you got to have like an aging plate?

01:03:07Marc:Yeah.

01:03:08Guest:Yeah, we had it right in the restaurant.

01:03:09Guest:Yeah.

01:03:10Guest:I mean, most restaurants just buy salami, buy cut steaks.

01:03:14Guest:But they can buy good... Oh, no, you could get good things that way.

01:03:17Guest:But like my, I felt like... Got to do it all.

01:03:19Guest:Like, look...

01:03:20Guest:we've been very fortunate we have have helped change how people feel about dining in Cleveland all these great young cooks people like Johnny and yeah and several others have come through our kitchens it's our job to continue the education process that I was able to get through school and several restaurants through our restaurant so

01:03:47Guest:If we could teach people how to butcher, how to make salami, how to cure meats, how to make pastries, how to work, you know, I mean, our, our mine and Liz's business partner used to say something.

01:03:59Guest:It's like, he'd walk into the restaurant.

01:04:01Guest:He was the numbers guy.

01:04:02Guest:He'd be like, there's like, it'd be like 530.

01:04:04Guest:We're just open.

01:04:05Guest:He's like, um, just so you know, there's 30 people in the restaurant and 37 cooks.

01:04:09Yeah.

01:04:11Guest:I'm like, oh, whatever.

01:04:13Guest:I'm like, eventually there's going to be 130 people in the restaurant.

01:04:16Guest:He goes, there's still 37 cooks.

01:04:18Guest:Why do we have 37 cooks?

01:04:20Guest:But it wasn't like for Lola to make money.

01:04:25Guest:I would have had to charge double what we charged.

01:04:28Guest:And people don't 100% understand that, but that's what it was.

01:04:32Marc:And it's also like, but you also knew going in that, I mean, it lasted a long time, man.

01:04:37Marc:I mean, you know, restaurants come and go so quickly.

01:04:39Marc:We closed during the pandemic in our 26th year.

01:04:42Marc:Yeah.

01:04:43Marc:I think I had the, I think I had probably the same thing twice that I ate, those scallops, I think I had.

01:04:48Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:04:49Marc:Because that's a tricky thing, scallops.

01:04:50Guest:Oh, 100%.

01:04:52Marc:Now, how are you with pastry cooking?

01:04:54Yeah.

01:04:54Marc:Average at best.

01:04:55Marc:Yeah.

01:04:56Marc:But I hired great pastry chefs.

01:04:58Marc:That's that's the real chemists of the.

01:05:00Guest:Yeah.

01:05:01Guest:Oh, they're they're machines.

01:05:02Guest:I had back to back insanely, insanely, you know, up for James Beard awards, all those guys.

01:05:07Guest:Yeah.

01:05:07Guest:Insanely good pastry chef.

01:05:08Guest:Breads, too.

01:05:09Guest:Yeah.

01:05:09Guest:Breads, too.

01:05:10Marc:Like, it's just the whole undertaking of fine dining.

01:05:14Marc:Like, for me, with fine dining, I eat too fast, and I don't know if, you know, I enjoy it.

01:05:20Marc:But there's part of me that it's so precious.

01:05:23Marc:No, yeah.

01:05:24Guest:And, you know, we were a Cleveland restaurant, and I'm not precious.

01:05:28Guest:So, like, we straddled the line of...

01:05:34Guest:Like, look, I don't like food where people have tongs and this, not tongs.

01:05:38Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:40Guest:Tweezers.

01:05:40Guest:Tweezers and all that bullshit.

01:05:41Guest:Like, it's just too precious for me.

01:05:43Guest:Yeah.

01:05:44Guest:For me.

01:05:44Guest:I don't even know how to eat it.

01:05:45Guest:Yeah.

01:05:45Guest:I mean, I, like, I understand the thought process behind it.

01:05:48Guest:I respect it.

01:05:49Guest:I have nothing against the chef to do it.

01:05:50Guest:Yeah.

01:05:51Guest:Yeah.

01:05:51Guest:Like, make it delicious.

01:05:53Guest:Right.

01:05:53Guest:Like, my whole thing is, like, make it delicious.

01:05:56Guest:Um...

01:05:58Guest:You know, like a perfect example of a Los Angeles chef that like everything that comes from her hands is spectacular, but it's not precious is like mozza.

01:06:09Guest:Like Nancy Silverton just makes beautiful food that's not overworked.

01:06:14Guest:It's simple, but it's special.

01:06:16Marc:I was there last night for a party.

01:06:18Marc:Yeah, she's magic.

01:06:19Marc:Yeah.

01:06:19Marc:I mean, yeah, it's sometimes like just with pasta in and of itself, it's like, what?

01:06:25Marc:Why is this so different?

01:06:26Guest:Yeah, and there's like three things in here, but it's like the best thing I've ever eaten in my life.

01:06:29Marc:Well, that was the experience I had, you know, at Conant, you know, I don't know where he stands in the— Oh, Scott, he's very talented.

01:06:37Marc:Very good, right?

01:06:37Marc:Very talented.

01:06:38Marc:So I remember I go to Scarpetta, you know, because I was watching the Food Network show, and just that basic spaghetti.

01:06:44Marc:Pomodoro.

01:06:45Marc:Yeah, and I'm like, what the fuck is that?

01:06:46Marc:Yeah, it's tomato sauce, butter, and basil.

01:06:48Marc:You're like—

01:06:49Marc:But it was the butter.

01:06:50Marc:Oh, so good.

01:06:51Marc:I didn't know what the... I couldn't figure out what... Yeah, he puts a lot of butter in.

01:06:55Marc:Yeah, man.

01:06:56Marc:So, like, when I interviewed him, I went to the restaurant and he cooked it for me.

01:06:59Marc:I'm like, oh, shit.

01:07:00Marc:And then when you do that, when you know it's the butter, which I didn't know, but I imagine most chefs know.

01:07:05Marc:Or is that a unique thing?

01:07:06Guest:Yeah, no, you know.

01:07:07Guest:I mean, but he does a little bit more than others.

01:07:09Guest:But it's...

01:07:11Guest:Look, going back, like you're like, I was going to, I got the Julie Child's book.

01:07:14Guest:I was going to start cooking out, but all that goddamn butter.

01:07:16Guest:Yeah.

01:07:16Guest:But like that pasta that you ate was all that damn butter.

01:07:20Guest:Right.

01:07:21Guest:And that was the magic sauce, man.

01:07:23Guest:Because the butter rounds out the acidity and the sweetness of the tomatoes and it gives it that tremendous mouthfeel.

01:07:28Guest:Yeah.

01:07:28Guest:And it just makes it...

01:07:30Marc:insane see there's all that thinking too the mouthfeel acidity like i got that book the what is it acid heats oh good book yeah you know to try to get but like i just walk into a couple recipes and i make them for months right and that's it i don't learn the thing i innately know sometimes you know like i'm you know what i always tell people is like look this is our like the the new simon suppers is our ninth book and

01:07:56Guest:And I've done, God, I don't know.

01:07:58Guest:I've been cooking on TV since 1998.

01:08:01Guest:So a lot of recipes.

01:08:02Guest:And I'm always like, look, a recipe is a guide to you as a home cook.

01:08:08Guest:The first time you get the book, follow the recipe.

01:08:11Guest:And then use your palate.

01:08:14Guest:to judge where you want that recipe to go.

01:08:16Guest:Learn the technique of the recipe.

01:08:18Guest:That's the important part.

01:08:20Guest:And then, you know, you make the recipe and you're like, I think this should be more spicy.

01:08:24Guest:That's in chilies.

01:08:25Guest:You know, I think this is too acidic.

01:08:27Guest:Pull out some lemon, whatever, you know.

01:08:30Guest:Oh, he used cilantro.

01:08:31Guest:I'm going to use basil.

01:08:32Guest:You know, so...

01:08:33Guest:So once you learn the technique, you could use the recipe as a guide.

01:08:40Guest:Like if, if you had that book, the, you know, acid, salt, um, you could go through that book and a recipe that you were doing for a month.

01:08:50Guest:And then you could go, you know what?

01:08:51Guest:I think it would be a little like, I like blah, blah, blah.

01:08:54Guest:I'm going to try putting that in.

01:08:55Guest:Sure.

01:08:55Guest:And it might change everything for you.

01:08:57Marc:Yeah.

01:08:57Marc:So that's, that's the creativity.

01:08:59Marc:Yeah.

01:09:00Marc:But when, okay.

01:09:00Marc:So when you do Lola,

01:09:03Marc:Now, you had a barbecue restaurant where you still have, right?

01:09:06Marc:Mabel's, yeah.

01:09:07Marc:And how far in were you when you opened that?

01:09:11Guest:Mabel's has been open seven years, so we were, what, 18 years into Lola.

01:09:16Marc:Now, the barbecue craze is fairly recent.

01:09:19Guest:Yeah, I mean, we were a bit ahead of it, but it's exploded.

01:09:23Guest:And, I mean, the reason I got into barbecue is...

01:09:26Guest:Food Network and the Chew, I mean, I'm going back over 20 years.

01:09:29Guest:Yeah.

01:09:30Guest:I met this guy named Mike Mills who has since passed, and they called him the legend.

01:09:34Guest:Yeah.

01:09:35Guest:And, you know, I always say when your nickname is a legend and you didn't give it to yourself, you're a fucking legend.

01:09:41Guest:Right.

01:09:42Guest:You know, and he, to me, was the- The barbecue guy.

01:09:45Guest:The master.

01:09:46Guest:He was in Cleveland for something, and he comes to Lola.

01:09:50Guest:And he's sitting at the bar, and I'm just feeding him.

01:09:52Guest:And he's like, you should open a barbecue restaurant.

01:09:55Guest:And I'm like, why do you say that, Mike?

01:09:57Guest:He goes, you make and smoke your own bacon.

01:09:59Guest:You smoke pastrami.

01:10:01Guest:You're doing all these barbecue things.

01:10:03Guest:And I went out and spent a little bit of time with him.

01:10:06Guest:And I just continued to fall in love with him.

01:10:09Guest:Where was he?

01:10:09Guest:He was in St.

01:10:10Guest:Louis and Murfreesboro.

01:10:12Guest:So it was like... That's barbecue land.

01:10:14Guest:Yeah, barbecue.

01:10:15Guest:And he was just the best at it.

01:10:17Guest:He was a...

01:10:18Guest:three or four-time world champ and won Memphis in May several times.

01:10:21Guest:Just incredible.

01:10:23Marc:It seems like there's a lot of creativity possible with barbecue.

01:10:28Guest:And that's what's happening now.

01:10:29Guest:It used to be like, okay, you do Texas, you do Kansas City, you do... Now it's getting a little bit more hyper-local.

01:10:37Guest:Like Mabel's, we do Cleveland barbecue.

01:10:38Guest:When I first said that, people were like, well...

01:10:40Guest:what the hell does that even mean i'm like what does it mean i'm it's the flavors that i grew up with so like our sauce is based on the base of our sauce is burtman's ballpark mustard which they serve at all the stadiums and arenas in cleveland you know i don't do raw onions like they do in texas i do sauerkraut because it's cleveland you know so we smoke with apple and cherry woods because those you know we don't use post oak but if within 20 miles of cleveland there's

01:11:06Guest:apple and cherry orchards everywhere.

01:11:08Marc:Right.

01:11:08Marc:You know, and peach, and peach.

01:11:10Marc:And you find that it stands out because of those things?

01:11:13Marc:Like, you can identify that?

01:11:14Marc:Yeah, I can.

01:11:15Guest:And I mean, I don't know, like, of course, I think it stands out, but it makes it uniquely ours.

01:11:24Guest:So what is Cleveland?

01:11:25Guest:Is that German-based, Polish-based?

01:11:27Guest:Very Eastern European, German, Polish, Irish.

01:11:30Guest:But I would never, like,

01:11:33Guest:why would I open up a Texas barbecue restaurant in Cleveland?

01:11:36Marc:It doesn't even make any damn sense.

01:11:37Marc:Well, that's, but that's smart, you know, because I got into this thing with barbecue.

01:11:40Marc:I'm only going to eat it where it comes from.

01:11:42Marc:Right.

01:11:42Marc:So I go to Texas and I go out to this place called Opie's because it's a drive and it looks like it's supposed to process.

01:11:49Marc:Right.

01:11:49Marc:And they, you know, and they treat them well.

01:11:50Marc:Cause I think when you get to a certain level with brisket,

01:11:54Marc:You know, if it's good brisket, it's going to be good.

01:11:56Marc:Right.

01:11:57Marc:Right.

01:11:57Marc:But but but I wouldn't eat it anywhere else because because there just seemed like so many people were just popping up.

01:12:03Marc:And why should I make a brisket like they make in Texas?

01:12:06Guest:Because the Texas brisket screams of Texas, you know, so like, you know, we do more.

01:12:11Guest:What do you do with your brisket?

01:12:12Guest:Well, our brisket, we season it with more of the spices you might find in a pastrami.

01:12:16Guest:Okay.

01:12:17Guest:And we smoke it with fruit woods.

01:12:19Guest:A lot of pepper, coriander, those kind of things.

01:12:23Guest:So it still tastes like a great smoked brisket, but it has a flavor profile that sings more to Cleveland.

01:12:30Guest:Yeah.

01:12:31Guest:And what was the third restaurant that you had?

01:12:33Guest:We had a place called Lolita.

01:12:35Guest:Yeah.

01:12:36Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:12:36Guest:But it burnt down.

01:12:38Guest:It burnt down.

01:12:39Guest:Yeah.

01:12:40Guest:It was all wood-fired, and we had a fire there.

01:12:43Guest:I mean, it's been a while now.

01:12:44Guest:It's been like seven, eight years ago now.

01:12:46Marc:So now, when does the...

01:12:49Marc:When does this Top Chef business start?

01:12:52Guest:Well, I started, I mean, Iron Chef, Iron Chef was before any of them.

01:12:58Guest:It was before Top Chef.

01:12:59Guest:It was before Hell's Kitchen.

01:13:00Guest:That was the Asian one, right?

01:13:02Guest:Yeah, it started in Japan, and then it came to America in, uh...

01:13:07Guest:gosh, 2003 maybe.

01:13:10Marc:But what was your break on the Food Network?

01:13:11Marc:What were you doing?

01:13:12Guest:Well, my first show on the Food Network was a show called The Melting Pot in 1998.

01:13:17Guest:What was the angle?

01:13:18Guest:It was Eastern European food.

01:13:19Guest:Okay.

01:13:21Guest:Because it was from my Cleveland roots.

01:13:23Guest:Pierogies?

01:13:25Guest:Yeah, pierogies and all that kind of Eastern Euro food.

01:13:28Guest:And I had a co-host named Wayne Harley Brackman, who was Bobby's pastry chef.

01:13:34Guest:Bobby Flay?

01:13:35Guest:Yep.

01:13:36Guest:Yeah.

01:13:36Guest:And then I did that for two years.

01:13:39Guest:And, you know, this was before Rachel Ray and, like, there weren't a lot of viewers of the Food Network back then.

01:13:46Guest:And, I mean, I remember saying to Bobby, you know, this just isn't, like...

01:13:51Guest:we don't get paid anything at the time.

01:13:54Guest:Lola was the original Lola was me and two other cooks.

01:13:57Guest:So for me to leave and film for two weeks was very difficult.

01:14:00Guest:Yeah.

01:14:01Guest:You know, I stopped doing food network.

01:14:02Guest:I would still do specials with them.

01:14:04Guest:Yeah.

01:14:04Guest:And then when iron chef started, they asked me to do next iron chef, which I won.

01:14:07Guest:And then I became an iron chef and did that for a long time.

01:14:10Guest:Yeah.

01:14:11Guest:Um, and then that led to several other shows on the food network.

01:14:17Uh, uh,

01:14:17Guest:which led to the Chew, the ABC shows.

01:14:19Guest:You know, we had a talk show on ABC for, God, seven years.

01:14:22Guest:We did 2,000 episodes of television.

01:14:25Marc:Because I remember when it happened, you know, the Food Network, because I was sort of a chopped addict, you know, because, like, I liked the idea of bringing all that garbage together and making something.

01:14:36Marc:And then you really got to see the chef's personalities in a different way.

01:14:40Marc:But were you aware?

01:14:41Marc:I mean, when did you become aware that, like, you know, that...

01:14:45Marc:thousands of people were locking into this.

01:14:48Marc:Well, Iron Chef, you know, so like.

01:14:51Guest:But that was a competition show.

01:14:53Guest:They're all competition shows.

01:14:54Guest:Yeah, but there weren't any back then.

01:14:55Guest:Yeah.

01:14:55Guest:That was the first one.

01:14:56Guest:So it like, so, you know, prior to Iron Chef, you know, I won Food and Wine Best New Chef.

01:15:02Guest:I won James Beard Award.

01:15:03Guest:I won all that shit.

01:15:04Guest:You get the Michelin stars?

01:15:05Guest:Cleveland didn't have Michelins, doesn't have Michelin stars.

01:15:08Guest:Why?

01:15:08Guest:They just don't have it.

01:15:10Guest:What does that mean?

01:15:10Guest:They don't have it.

01:15:11Guest:Michelin stars only in Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco.

01:15:14Marc:Really?

01:15:15Marc:Yeah.

01:15:15Marc:It's not like a countrywide thing because it's so specific.

01:15:18Marc:Right.

01:15:19Marc:So if you want to go get that star, you got to... You got to be in one of those cities.

01:15:22Marc:Huh.

01:15:24Marc:Did you rally for that?

01:15:24Marc:Couldn't you get a board together?

01:15:26Guest:I tried, and they basically were like... We're not going to Cleveland?

01:15:29Guest:We're not going... You're the only guy there.

01:15:30Guest:What are we going to do in Cleveland?

01:15:32Guest:It was a setup.

01:15:33Guest:It was, yeah.

01:15:35Guest:So...

01:15:36Guest:When I won next Iron Chef, the amount of media coverage for that show was like nothing I had ever seen before.

01:15:44Guest:Like, it was insane.

01:15:46Guest:They named a street after me in Cleveland after I won Iron Chef.

01:15:49Guest:Yeah.

01:15:49Guest:Which is bananas.

01:15:51Guest:I mean, come on.

01:15:52Guest:What's on that street?

01:15:54Guest:Lola.

01:15:55Guest:Lola.

01:15:55Guest:So it's that one street.

01:15:57Guest:Yeah.

01:15:59Guest:So it just, that's when I realized, even though I had been on Food Network for a long time, that's when I realized the power of it.

01:16:10Guest:I really, truly realized the power of it.

01:16:11Marc:Yeah.

01:16:12Marc:And because of that, because there was only a handful of you guys and women, then the restaurants filled up, right?

01:16:19Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:16:19Guest:I mean, when I first became an Iron Chef, there were only four of us.

01:16:23Guest:Who was it?

01:16:24Guest:It grew to about seven after that.

01:16:26Guest:It was myself, Bobby, Morimoto, and Kat Cora.

01:16:31Guest:Now, Bobby, you guys get along?

01:16:33Guest:Very well.

01:16:33Guest:He's one of my dearest friends.

01:16:34Guest:Yeah?

01:16:35Guest:Yeah.

01:16:35Guest:We're so different, it's unbelievable, which is probably why we get along so well.

01:16:38Guest:Because it's you two.

01:16:38Guest:You guys got the top chefs more than anybody, right?

01:16:41Guest:Yeah.

01:16:41Guest:Him and I have done, I think, more Iron Chef battles than anyone.

01:16:45Marc:And, like, with him, I noticed, because, like, you know, look, I eat more basic than I'd like to admit.

01:16:52Marc:But, you know, with him, it was like there was 900 sauces.

01:16:55Marc:A lot of stuff going on.

01:16:57Guest:Yeah, I mean.

01:16:58Guest:But his food's gotten simpler now.

01:16:59Guest:I kid with him now.

01:17:00Guest:I'm like...

01:17:01Guest:Why do you want to be Italian now?

01:17:04Guest:You used to make fun of me all the time, but now you want to be Italian?

01:17:06Guest:But he wanted to be Mexican for a long time.

01:17:09Guest:Yeah, but he's just a great chef.

01:17:12Guest:Bobby's a great guy.

01:17:12Marc:What is it, though?

01:17:13Marc:You guys have styles, so what's your difference in styles?

01:17:17Guest:I would say he's more Southwestern-influenced, more chili-influenced.

01:17:22Guest:The funny thing is, I think if people thought of us as chefs, they'd think we were very different, but we cook together all the time.

01:17:28Guest:Yeah.

01:17:28Guest:on TV and at home, and we cook very similar.

01:17:33Guest:It's just how people think of our food is different.

01:17:36Guest:But the way we go about it is very, very similar.

01:17:39Marc:Well, I've noticed that sometimes when I see these, when guys at your level are cooking and you can see it, is that there's a shorthand to it.

01:17:46Marc:Like, you know, even if you're, you know what they're doing, but there'll be an ingredient or something like, oh, okay.

01:17:54Guest:Yeah, like, I mean, like, you know, like,

01:17:56Guest:Like Bobby and I, if we were making a dish, we'd probably get to a certain point.

01:18:00Guest:Yeah.

01:18:01Guest:And then I'd be like, okay, I'm going to finish this with mint, parsley, and dill.

01:18:07Guest:And he's like, I'm going to finish it with, you know, Chipotle, ancho, chilies, and something.

01:18:12Guest:Right.

01:18:12Guest:Like everything up to that point is the same.

01:18:14Marc:Right.

01:18:15Marc:And so, but where did you draw the line in terms of when, you know, the art of fine dining...

01:18:24Marc:There were a lot of fusions going on that seemed like a stretch.

01:18:29Marc:And then there was the period of the foams.

01:18:32Marc:Oh, I hate that shit.

01:18:34Marc:But that's what I got the sense of almost always.

01:18:36Marc:The old school guys are like, what is that?

01:18:38Marc:Just pisses me off.

01:18:39Guest:With smoking things?

01:18:40Guest:I remember someone said, try this tomato foam.

01:18:43Guest:It tastes just like a tomato.

01:18:44Guest:I'm like, just give me a fucking tomato.

01:18:45Guest:I don't understand.

01:18:47Marc:So that was sort of a fad.

01:18:49Guest:Yeah, I mean, but it's still around.

01:18:51Guest:And I mean, I guess it has a value like anything else.

01:18:53Guest:Looks weird.

01:18:54Guest:Yeah, I mean, I don't... It's just not my thing.

01:18:58Guest:It just...

01:19:00Guest:I try not to poo-poo things that aren't my thing because then you just sound like, oh, you don't understand it.

01:19:05Guest:I understand it just fine.

01:19:06Guest:I could do it just fine.

01:19:07Marc:I just don't like it.

01:19:08Marc:But it's interesting.

01:19:10Marc:So most of the stuff like Eastern European, Greek, Italian, and French, that all sort of makes sense.

01:19:18Marc:You can kind of move through those, right?

01:19:19Guest:Yeah, you can move through it.

01:19:21Guest:But the way that I cook too, it's like, look, almost everything that we've cooked in our restaurants and I do is over live fire.

01:19:26Guest:I've always cooked over live fire.

01:19:28Guest:To me, that is...

01:19:30Guest:a skill and creates a unique flavor that no one else has.

01:19:34Guest:And, you know, like putting things in and out of wood-burning ovens and wood-burning grills.

01:19:39Guest:Yeah.

01:19:40Guest:Smokers now and things of that nature.

01:19:42Guest:Like, I would rather spend my time doing that than making a gelée or a foam or a... It just...

01:19:49Marc:It seems more kind of honest.

01:19:54Marc:Yeah.

01:19:55Marc:And what about Asian-free Asian?

01:19:57Guest:I love Asian food.

01:19:59Guest:I don't cook it, but I love it.

01:20:01Guest:When I try to cook it, I screw it all up.

01:20:03Marc:Because that seems to be—well, same with Mexican and Southwestern, is that there's an entirely different spice and style spectrum, too.

01:20:13Marc:And Asian's been around for thousands of years.

01:20:15Guest:Yeah.

01:20:15Guest:So you're dealing with some deep shit.

01:20:17Guest:Oh, really great stuff.

01:20:19Guest:It's just, you know, I've never been trained in it.

01:20:20Guest:So I don't, I like sometimes I'll pull something here and there.

01:20:23Guest:And, um, but for the most part, my food stays in like, you know, live fire, meat centric.

01:20:30Guest:Yeah.

01:20:30Guest:Um, and then like a lot of crunchy vegetables.

01:20:34Guest:Right.

01:20:34Guest:Like that's how I cook.

01:20:35Guest:Like that, if I had to like some, like acidity, fire, meat, raw veg.

01:20:41Yeah.

01:20:41Marc:Yeah, because there's interesting people.

01:20:43Marc:Like, you know Bayless?

01:20:45Marc:I know him very well.

01:20:46Marc:He lived in Cleveland for a long time.

01:20:48Marc:Did he?

01:20:48Marc:Yeah.

01:20:49Marc:Now, he seems like an interesting guy because there was a point there where I would go to that Chicago airport and he had that sandwich place.

01:20:55Marc:Oh, the sandwich place, yeah.

01:20:56Marc:And that was Torte, right?

01:20:57Guest:Yeah.

01:20:58Marc:And I was like, I'd look forward to going.

01:21:00Marc:It was a good sandwich.

01:21:01Marc:Right?

01:21:02Marc:Torte was delicious.

01:21:03Marc:I don't know if it's still there, but, man, delicious.

01:21:05Marc:I'm like, I've got to fly American because that fucking restaurant.

01:21:07Guest:Because that's where that thing is.

01:21:08Guest:It's right in the terminal.

01:21:10Marc:Yeah.

01:21:10Marc:But it's interesting to me that something so simple can make such a difference.

01:21:15Guest:Like, there is really kind of some outstanding thing.

01:21:17Guest:But Rick, you know, Rick is a student of that cuisine and, I mean, really understands it and puts his little twists on it.

01:21:23Guest:Yeah.

01:21:24Guest:It's incredibly delicious.

01:21:26Marc:So what are you doing, like, outside of, like, this new Simply Simon Suppers, which, like, when you approach putting a cookbook together, like you said, the last two were kind of a little more health-oriented.

01:21:37Marc:Yeah.

01:21:37Marc:But like when you're going to do a new cookbook, like you, you, what was the angle on this?

01:21:41Marc:How'd you break it down?

01:21:42Guest:This one is like every, like I grew up again, the Greek Sicilian family.

01:21:46Guest:Yeah.

01:21:47Guest:We, people were at our house every Sunday.

01:21:48Guest:We did Sunday supper every week.

01:21:50Guest:Yeah.

01:21:50Guest:Um, but it was always the same.

01:21:52Guest:With the gravy.

01:21:53Guest:Yeah.

01:21:53Guest:It was the same exact Sunday supper.

01:21:54Guest:Cavetel.

01:21:56Guest:Uh, we, my mom called it Sunday sauce, but gravy.

01:21:58Guest:Yeah.

01:21:58Guest:Uh, garlic bread.

01:22:00Guest:Yeah.

01:22:00Guest:big salad.

01:22:01Guest:Like it was always the same.

01:22:02Guest:Yeah.

01:22:02Guest:And there were always anywhere from eight to 20 people.

01:22:06Guest:And that was that.

01:22:07Guest:Yeah.

01:22:08Guest:And so what Liz and I have been doing now for God, as long as I can remember.

01:22:13Guest:Um, yeah, Liz is my wife and she partner in all the restaurants and a Psalm and designs the restaurants.

01:22:19Guest:Incredible.

01:22:20Guest:She does the Food Network show Simon's Dinners with me in our backyard.

01:22:27Guest:So every Sunday, every Sunday if we're not traveling or working or whatever, we do Sunday supper.

01:22:34Guest:And all of our friends come over, family comes over, and I do a different one every week.

01:22:39Guest:And so this book is 52 weeks of Sunday suppers basically.

01:22:44Marc:Yeah.

01:22:44Marc:And when you prepare something like that, you sit down, you just write it down, you lay it out, you decide... No, I just cook.

01:22:50Guest:Right.

01:22:50Guest:And then we... Like, I write the notes of what I made.

01:22:52Guest:Yeah.

01:22:53Guest:And then we recreated it in the book.

01:22:54Guest:And the book is fun because, you know, typically a cookbook is broken down into, like, starters, salads, entrees, desserts, whatever.

01:23:02Guest:So we did this a little bit more throughout the seasons.

01:23:06Guest:Yeah.

01:23:06Guest:But we also broke it just down per meal.

01:23:08Guest:So, like, every...

01:23:09Guest:Um, recipe is a full meal.

01:23:12Guest:So there's almost, there's close to 185 recipes in the book.

01:23:17Guest:Um, but they're broken down for meals, including holidays.

01:23:21Guest:So it's like 52 weeks of meals.

01:23:23Marc:Right.

01:23:24Marc:Oh, that's great.

01:23:24Marc:And now, all right.

01:23:25Marc:So let's just say like, where do you eat in LA?

01:23:28Guest:You know, I'm currently in love.

01:23:30Guest:There's a restaurant now.

01:23:31Guest:Again, I'm in Venice.

01:23:32Guest:So we love a restaurant called Liz and I love a restaurant called Hatchet Hall.

01:23:36Guest:Yeah.

01:23:36Guest:In Culver City.

01:23:38Guest:Yeah.

01:23:38Guest:We're just we're kind of getting our our L.A.

01:23:41Guest:roots back a little bit.

01:23:43Guest:We're discovering some new places.

01:23:45Guest:You know, we're just it's just it's a great food town.

01:23:49Guest:I actually listen.

01:23:49Guest:I were talking the other day and all my New York friends are going to punch me in the face when I get back.

01:23:53Guest:Yeah.

01:23:53Guest:I actually think LA may be the best food city in America right now.

01:23:57Guest:Oh my God, I got to go out more.

01:23:59Guest:Yeah, it's really... Because there's a lot of creativity going on.

01:24:02Guest:There's a lot of... I mean, obviously the product here is unmatched.

01:24:06Guest:Yeah.

01:24:07Guest:But we've just had...

01:24:09Guest:Maybe it's because we're going to places that we haven't been.

01:24:11Guest:Yeah.

01:24:11Guest:So there's some of that.

01:24:12Guest:But I think L.A.

01:24:14Guest:may be the best food city in America right now.

01:24:16Guest:Huh.

01:24:17Marc:And where do you stand on fish?

01:24:19Marc:I love to eat fish.

01:24:21Marc:It's hard to make it interesting, isn't it?

01:24:23Marc:I don't think so.

01:24:24Guest:I mean, I...

01:24:25Guest:I guess it depends on the fish.

01:24:28Guest:I find fish to be very versatile, incredible.

01:24:31Guest:It's very different than cooking meats.

01:24:36Guest:It takes a little bit more finesse and I feel there's a...

01:24:43Guest:gentleness that comes with fish.

01:24:44Guest:Sure.

01:24:44Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:45Guest:You don't want to overcook it.

01:24:46Guest:Right.

01:24:46Marc:Yeah.

01:24:47Marc:All right, man.

01:24:48Marc:So the only restaurant you got going still is Mabel's?

01:24:51Guest:Just Mabel's.

01:24:51Guest:Well, we also have, uh, we have Angeline at the Borgata in Atlantic City, which is, uh, an Italian restaurant named after my mom.

01:24:58Guest:Yeah.

01:24:59Guest:Um, which I love.

01:25:00Guest:Yeah.

01:25:00Guest:It's, you know, Italian American restaurant.

01:25:03Guest:Sure.

01:25:03Guest:Um,

01:25:04Guest:And then we have some really casual Bar Simons, which are in like some airports and stuff.

01:25:07Guest:But like our freestanding restaurants are Angeline and Mabel's.

01:25:12Guest:And we may, you know, I'm going to say it here because sometimes when I say things, they happen.

01:25:16Guest:And I've been trying to convince my wife, Liz, of this.

01:25:19Guest:I really, really want to open a little Greek restaurant in L.A.

01:25:25Marc:Please, man.

01:25:25Marc:Greek is the best.

01:25:26Marc:I used to live in Astoria.

01:25:27Marc:It's the best.

01:25:28Marc:Oh, it's the best.

01:25:29Marc:Yeah.

01:25:29Marc:It's so, it's so clean and it's so simple.

01:25:32Guest:There's such a beauty about Greek food and it's so celebratory.

01:25:36Guest:Yeah.

01:25:36Guest:You know, so that's, uh, I'm trying to try to convince Liz of it.

01:25:40Guest:We'll see what happens.

01:25:41Marc:We used to go, I used to go to Kiklides.

01:25:43Marc:Oh yeah.

01:25:43Marc:It's the best.

01:25:44Marc:The great.

01:25:45Marc:That, that fucking octopus.

01:25:46Marc:Oh, so good.

01:25:47Marc:It's so simple.

01:25:48Marc:Yeah.

01:25:48Marc:Great talking to you, Michael.

01:25:50Marc:So fun.

01:25:50Marc:Thank you.

01:25:52Yep.

01:25:56Marc:There you go.

01:25:57Marc:That was nice.

01:25:59Marc:I'm definitely going to go down there and talk to Michael Moore.

01:26:03Marc:Nice guy.

01:26:03Marc:Simply Simon's Suppers, recipes and menus for every week of the year comes out next week, Tuesday, September 12th.

01:26:09Marc:Again, you can pre-order it right now and hang out for a minute, will you folks?

01:26:15Marc:People, if you're signed up for the full Marin, tomorrow we'll have even more of my talk with Todd posted exclusively for full Marin subscribers.

01:26:24Marc:It's just very odd when you're in a fairly small gathering and Lauren Michaels walks in.

01:26:29Right.

01:26:30Guest:You're like, oh, am I auditioning now?

01:26:33Marc:That's why I said I texted the group text the day after.

01:26:35Marc:I said, I think I got SNL.

01:26:37Marc:That's funny.

01:26:38Marc:Thanks, everyone.

01:26:39Marc:Did you ever audition for that?

01:26:41Guest:I, yeah, I did.

01:26:45Guest:Yeah?

01:26:45Guest:I don't know why I'm hesitating.

01:26:47Guest:I did two rounds of stand-up, and the second round was, I did the first in front of, like, Marcy Klein, I think.

01:26:52Guest:Right.

01:26:53Guest:And then the second round was at the comic strip with him there.

01:26:55Marc:Right.

01:26:56Marc:I think I was on that same thing.

01:26:57Guest:And it went fine.

01:26:59Guest:But I was also thinking, like, I never thought I would be an SNL guy.

01:27:03Guest:So I think I just fell into the audition.

01:27:05Marc:That must have been around the time when I auditioned.

01:27:07Marc:It must have been that same bunch of auditions, right?

01:27:09Marc:Probably.

01:27:10Marc:We were like 12 years old.

01:27:12Marc:Yes.

01:27:12Marc:I was, I think I was nine.

01:27:14Marc:Yeah.

01:27:14Marc:We were like 20 something.

01:27:16Marc:Yeah.

01:27:17Marc:To sign up for the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus this guitar take.

01:27:25Marc:I, you know, I had the slide guitar.

01:27:27Marc:I had the open G tuned guitar.

01:27:29Marc:plugged in.

01:27:30Marc:So I just picked it up and I, this is sort of a first take.

01:27:33Marc:I rarely do that, but I just, I, I, well, I was recording and I didn't really realize it.

01:27:37Marc:So this, I just picked it up and did this and I thought it made sense.

01:27:40Marc:So, uh, here you go.

01:27:42Marc:I, it did the, the end part, the boomer lives park got a little, I had, I had some level control issues.

01:27:50Guest:guitar solo

01:28:27guitar solo

01:28:51guitar solo

01:29:21guitar solo

01:29:51guitar solo

01:30:10Marc:Boomer lives.

01:30:19Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.

01:30:21Marc:Cat angels everywhere.