Episode 1465 - Maria Bamford
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:It was a pretty good weekend.
Marc:How was yours?
Marc:Was yours okay?
Marc:I hosted that screening of Dog Day Afternoon for American Cinematheque down at the Arrow Theater.
Marc:It was sold out.
Marc:And it was pretty great.
Marc:I was very excited about it.
Marc:I've watched that movie three times on TV or on my small screen.
Marc:I don't think I've ever seen it on the big screen.
Marc:I'm mildly obsessed with the movie, as some of you know who listen to this show.
Marc:I just cannot believe the sort of visceral nature of all the performances and of the way it was shot.
Marc:I just had a kind of...
Marc:cathartic moment with it in a hotel room in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Marc:And they watched, uh, when they, uh, showed it on HBO a couple months ago, and then I watched it again.
Marc:And then I watched half of it again.
Marc:And then I was just still just as excited to watch a screening of it.
Marc:And I'll, I'll tell you how that went.
Marc:Let me do some business here today on the show, man, I just, that was, that was some radio guy shit.
Marc:Let's, let's take care of some business before I get into that story.
Marc:Uh,
Marc:Maria Bamford is back.
Marc:Maria Bamford is back.
Marc:She's back.
Marc:She's been on many times.
Marc:Five.
Marc:Five times in the past.
Marc:And look, if anyone ever asks me, and you guys know how I feel, I've talked to a lot of comedians.
Marc:I've seen hundreds and hundreds of comedians in my life.
Marc:But for me, for where my heart is, Maria Bamford is the best comic working.
Marc:The most...
Marc:courageous, the most interesting, and really the funniest one.
Marc:And I've always had a sort of, to me, she's on another level.
Marc:And it's almost difficult for me to talk to her like she's just a person because she's kind of a chaotic, ethereal presence to me and just so funny.
Marc:And she's got a new memoir out, which is kind of
Marc:mind-blowing in its structure.
Marc:It's called Sure, I'll Join Your Cult, but don't be deceived.
Marc:It's not just a comedy memoir.
Marc:She puts it together in a very funny way.
Marc:There's a lot of elements to it, but there is a lot of her life in it, and a lot of it is very, I don't want to say disturbing, but jarring.
Marc:I mean, it is her sort of journey to try to attain some mental health for herself.
Marc:All the ups and downs and things that failed and things that worked, and she's very candid about it.
Marc:And there's, like I said, a lot of different little sub-elements to it, to the book.
Marc:It's an emotional, it's disturbing, it's hilarious, it's a great book.
Marc:So I'm going to talk to her, which is always, to me, it's like engaging with the id of comedy itself somehow.
Marc:I don't know...
Marc:How else to tell you?
Marc:And I don't, it's interesting about Maria because I know she's the kind of comic and we talked about it a bit where people like me or people that get her are going to get her deeply because there's no other way to get her.
Marc:But there are people that are just going to watch her for 30 seconds and go, I don't get it.
Marc:She seems weird.
Marc:And that is the cross that we comics bear sometimes, is that you're going to be honest up there, and there's just going to be a lot of people that are like, oh, man, this is sad, or that guy's weird, or like, what's wrong with that person?
Marc:You know, it's just the nature of the thing.
Marc:It's a completely...
Marc:subjective experience.
Marc:And for those who are touched with the true gift of sort of a type of point of view or brilliance, you know, they're going to get that their whole life.
Marc:And Maria...
Marc:Maria has learned to survive and live, and she is fairly, she's managing well.
Marc:She's doing good.
Marc:But we'll talk in a second.
Marc:I'm just, I'm thrilled and always at the edge of my seat and nervous when I talk to Maria Bamford.
Marc:So...
Marc:The Dog Day Afternoon screening, I just was... As I said before, I was excited.
Marc:And I had gotten... So I didn't really know what I was going to do to present it.
Marc:Because I put pressure on myself.
Marc:And I think, like, do I need to, you know, put forth some sort of, you know, intelligent criticism?
Marc:Do I need to contextualize it?
Marc:And I've talked to you guys about, you know, my experience with some of these movies I'm watching.
Marc:But this one...
Marc:Watching it again on the big screen, it keeps revealing itself to me.
Marc:This is without a doubt Al Pacino's best work.
Marc:And I'm talking life's work.
Marc:It is without it.
Marc:It's his show.
Marc:Every performance down to the smallest roles are going to use the word visceral again and raw.
Marc:And without there is not a false note.
Marc:And watching again was just brain, it was just mind blowing.
Marc:Again, all of it, every second of it.
Marc:But I got this DM from somebody.
Marc:A woman named Nancy, Nancy Cantor.
Marc:And I'll read you the DM because I reached out to her because I wanted her to come up on stage with me before the show.
Marc:She said, Mark, I've been a fan of yours for a long time and I got a notification from American Cinematheque that you'll be hosting a screening of Dog Day Afternoon on August 6th.
Marc:I tried to grab a few ticks, but it sold out.
Marc:I thought I'd reach out to you to tell you about my connection to the film, and perhaps you might be able to finagle some tickets for me once you hear it.
Marc:Dog Day Afternoon was my second job in the film business.
Marc:I was Dee Dee Allen's apprentice editor, and we just finished up on Arthur Penn's Night Moves when Dog Day Afternoon came along.
Marc:As you probably know, at that time, apprentice editors did little more than clean the film to get the work print ready for screenings and made lots of boxes to hold the trims and unused film footage.
Marc:But of course, the real job was to listen and learn.
Marc:Dee Dee was a big talker, and if you stood behind her for any length of time, you could learn everything you'd ever need to know about story and performance and structure and how to think like a filmmaker.
Marc:But then there was always the film to be cleaned.
Marc:It was also my job to get the film to the screening room.
Marc:On the day we were going to show the first cut to the executives, as well as Mr. Pacino...
Marc:It was up to me to get it safely from 1600 Broadway to the Gulf and Western Building on 59th.
Marc:So I loaded up the film cans.
Marc:This was the only copy of the cut film and set them on the corner of Broadway and 50th Street while I hailed a cab to take me uptown.
Marc:Moments later, I heard a loud crunch behind me.
Marc:I turned and saw that the M50 Crosstown bus had hopped the curb and ran over the film cans.
Marc:Seeing what happened, I realized I'd never work in the business again, and the only logical thing for me to do was take that cab straight to JFK and get on the next plane to Mexico and never be heard from again.
Marc:A few breaths later, I gathered my senses and headed to the screening room, praying that there was something left of the print.
Marc:Someone or something was smiling on me that day because when I showed the projectionist what happened, he opened the cans to find the film reels badly bent, but the film intact!
Marc:We unspooled it and rewound it onto new reels, and no one was ever the wiser.
Marc:I went on to work with Didi on other films and edited my own as well before making a change to go into producing and ultimately wound up working as an executive at Disney for nearly 20 years.
Marc:But the time I spent as an editor has informed nearly every creative choice I've made, and Dog Day Afternoon was a masterclass in storytelling by a director and an editor who knew exactly how to tell that one.
Marc:Anyway, so sorry for the long message, but I thought it might add some color for you to the making of the film.
Marc:Kind wishes, Nancy Cantor.
Marc:So I reached out to her because I thought, what a great thing.
Marc:What a great story.
Marc:The fact that this fundamentally New York movie.
Marc:Which is all New York is the star of the film in a lot of ways that New York had conspired against it through serendipitous horror and crushed the canisters.
Marc:But it was really I mean, if she if that had gone a different way, we might not have seen the same cut necessarily, because all that was left outside of that print was the negative.
Marc:But she told that story and talked a little about some other stuff about the screening.
Marc:And it was really a beautiful thing.
Marc:And we all watched the movie.
Marc:And, you know, it's so relevant.
Marc:I don't even know how it's relevant on the levels it's relevant.
Marc:around gender issues, around the media, around just chaos, around the sort of like, you know, kind of throbbing anger of the masses in a way around economic compromise and class issues.
Marc:It was a man, you know, it's like I'm promoting a movie that's how old is it?
Marc:like 50 years old.
Marc:So folks, I have a new date, a tour date that's live.
Marc:It's for Bellingham, Washington.
Marc:I'll be at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival.
Marc:Tickets are now available at BellinghamExit.com or by going to WTFPod.com.
Marc:dot com slash tour.
Marc:I'm at Largo in LA next Wednesday, September 6th.
Marc:I'll be doing five shows at helium in St.
Marc:Louis, September 14th through 16th.
Marc:Then I'll be at the Las Vegas wise guys on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.
Marc:And in October, I'm at helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows.
Marc:I think they're all sold out.
Marc:So sorry, go to WTF pod.com slash tour for tickets.
Marc:Uh, there'll be an upcoming date in November in Albuquerque, New Mexico, my hometown.
Marc:Uh,
Marc:I'll let you know when those go on sale.
Marc:So I'd like to talk a moment about the Ukrainian conflict.
Marc:Not the one...
Marc:With Russia, but the one that happened in my house a couple of days ago.
Marc:I'll explain.
Marc:Now, look, if any of you are easily triggered by kind of bourgeois, relatively bullshitty luxury problems in story form, you might want to check out.
Marc:But, you know, this is my life sometimes.
Marc:You know, I'm a homeowner.
Marc:I'm a refrigerator owner.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I have an old, relatively old Thermador refrigerator that came with the house.
Marc:It's a high-end fridge, but it's old.
Marc:Now, look, I... So, look, ice makers on all refrigerators break, you know, but this one just kept breaking.
Marc:And for some reason, I found it.
Marc:I got obsessed with...
Marc:with the ice maker in this fridge.
Marc:I was going to buy a new fridge.
Marc:And this company that I used to fix the fridge that I got from the woman that used to own this house and used to own this fridge always send, and I've shared some of this before, these Ukrainian guys who fix refrigerators.
Marc:So this thing has been I've been through two or three ice makers and then like something else just went wrong.
Marc:And I've been working with this guy, Alex, for what feels like months and months and months.
Marc:He just kept trying to fix it.
Marc:He said, well, here's the key to the story is that his first thing when he fixed it the first time, he said, well, it's a water pressure problem.
Marc:It's coming in too strong and it's fucking everything up.
Marc:And I said, all right, well, I'll just turn the valve down.
Marc:And I would turn this valve on and off downstairs thinking, you know, in the sub-basement or the crawl space where the plumbing is, thinking it was the correct valve for the fridge.
Marc:And then he kept trying to fix it.
Marc:But, like, it would go weeks without him coming over.
Marc:And then we couldn't schedule a time.
Marc:Then he was waiting for a part.
Marc:And then he got COVID.
Marc:And then he couldn't find another technician to help him with this last-ditch effort to fix the fucking thing.
Marc:And, you know, finally...
Marc:And he was determined because he was like, I've been doing this 18 years and I will fix it.
Marc:So I began to sort of not give a shit anymore.
Marc:And I realized, which I should have realized at the beginning, I don't need an ice maker and just ride it out until the goddamn refrigerator craps out.
Marc:I asked him if I should buy a new one.
Marc:He said, no, because this is an old one.
Marc:It's only got one computer.
Marc:The new ones are full of computers and there's a million things to break and they're unnecessary.
Marc:This is a good fridge.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:I'm like, great.
Marc:I think this has probably been going on, let's say four months.
Marc:And it's just crazy.
Marc:He would say he would come and then he wouldn't come.
Marc:And it's not on him.
Marc:It just wasn't happening.
Marc:So finally, he's like, I'm going to get my son to come because I can't get another technician through the company.
Marc:So him and his son come, these two Ukrainian men.
Marc:And they're pulling apart the goddamn freezer to get into the ice maker, get into the guts of the machine.
Marc:They tell me to shut the valve off so they can unhook this thing to replace this part.
Marc:We'd never taken the water supply cap off.
Marc:So I went down and turned off the valve that I thought was the valve.
Marc:And then they're screaming, there's water all over the place.
Marc:He couldn't even hold his thumb to stop the pressure coming through this tube.
Marc:And I was like, oh my God, that isn't the valve.
Marc:And he's like, I know, I told you.
Marc:And then they like, you know, so I had to shut the entire house water off.
Marc:And then I realized I didn't have a valve.
Marc:And now I know it's my fault at the core of this thing.
Marc:And, you know, he's been trying all these different ways and he was right at the beginning.
Marc:So I'm like, it was my fault.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:You know, I'm sorry.
Marc:He's like, no, no blame.
Marc:I just want to fix it.
Marc:And in then, like, you know, I don't know what's going on in the kitchen, but they are yelling at each other.
Marc:The two Ukrainian men.
Marc:I know it's a kind of a brash language anyways, but they're yelling and it's like it's like it's making me it's almost triggering me.
Marc:Like, you know, like there's going to be violence in there over the the father and son Ukrainian civil war.
Marc:In my kitchen over this goddamn refrigerator.
Marc:And then they're like, you know, I said, I'll call the plumbers.
Marc:And then I had like an emergency plumber come over to put the valve in.
Marc:And then I shut that off.
Marc:But they had already left.
Marc:But before they left, he's trying to put the freezer door in.
Marc:And one of the hinges shatters and there's ball bearings in it.
Marc:And I just hear like, you know, a 20 small ball bearings hit the kitchen floor from the other room and they're all rolling everywhere.
Marc:And I just hear him go, this fucking refrigerator, this fucking fridge.
Marc:I do this 18 years.
Marc:I hate this fridge.
Marc:I hate this fridge.
Marc:Yelling, yelling at my fridge.
Marc:And I walk in, I'm like, what's up?
Marc:And his son is walking away from the fridge towards me.
Marc:He goes, fucking Murphy's Law.
Marc:Fucking Murphy's Law.
Marc:And this guy's like, I don't know.
Marc:Just get another fucking refrigerator.
Marc:Get another fucking fridge.
Marc:I hate this refrigerator.
Marc:I'm like, so what do you want to do?
Marc:He's like, I can order the hinge, but I don't know.
Marc:The inside parts may be broken.
Marc:And I'm like, I'll get the valve.
Marc:I said, okay.
Marc:And then he goes, you decide.
Marc:And then he props my refrigerator door shut with the shelf from inside the fridge.
Marc:So that's sitting on a towel.
Marc:Like it's propped shut right now.
Marc:I texted him to order the hinge.
Marc:So we'll see.
Marc:This could go on for another couple months.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think he has a need, like a heroic journey to fix this refrigerator.
Marc:And I've accepted my responsibility in it.
Marc:And we'll just see what happens, man.
Marc:Fucking Murphy's Law!
Marc:Right?
Marc:So, listen, we're now going to spend some time with Maria Bamford.
Marc:I told you that she has this memoir out that's really a very exciting approach to the memoir.
Marc:Very funny, but also very gnarly.
Marc:It's called Sure, I'll Join Your Cult, A Memoir of Mental Illness and the Quest to Belong Anywhere.
Marc:It's out wherever you get books on September 5th.
Marc:You can pre-order it now.
Marc:And this is me and the...
Marc:The truly touched in a brilliant way, Maria Bamford.
Marc:You've been on the show like...
Marc:Like a lot.
Guest:Yeah, I think, well, at least twice.
Marc:Well, twice just like this, but then there were those old live ones.
Guest:Oh, yes, that's right.
Marc:And we dug up a thing that we did in 2006 when I had a radio show at KTLK at night that you came and we recorded.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And I was trying to figure out what the documentarian, Neil.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's so funny because I'm telling you, man, Stephen Fine Arts, it's been two years.
Marc:And after a certain point, how long has he been following you?
Marc:He said a year?
Guest:It's been a year.
Guest:And so the contract says, which I have read, is that after two years, I can say I'm done-sies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that a plan, though?
Marc:I mean— Because it seems like for you, you're sort of like—they could just say, like, we just need another year.
Marc:And you'll be like, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the thing is, it's obviously, it's a delightful ego boost to have anyone care about anything.
Guest:And at the same time, I think there's a point where you think, oh, I think I need to be done with this.
Marc:Well, yeah, I don't know.
Marc:Like, it's getting to the point because, like, sometimes when I'm on, like, camera like that and we're just hanging out, like, at the comedy store or something, and there was something about that zone after COVID and after I got through the primary place of the grief that I was sort of like, well, fuck everybody.
Marc:And I was just throwing people under the bus.
Yeah.
Marc:Everybody was going right under the bus.
Marc:You mentioned a name of any comic.
Marc:And I was like, oh, that guy.
Marc:And now I got to sit with this dude.
Marc:And I'm like, let me see that footage in the parking lot from two years ago because I'm pretty sure that guy didn't deserve that.
Marc:But maybe he did.
Marc:But the thing about you or I on some level after reading some of your book and knowing you is that, you know, you say things and then you're sort of like, but it was honest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I made it two thirds of the way through.
Marc:And if I'd started it earlier.
Marc:No, I love it.
Marc:I love you.
Guest:I am grateful that you have even cracked.
Marc:No, it was important because it was helpful to me, you know, because like I realize I never understand why I, you know, I can engage with you so well.
Marc:It's because we're very similar.
Marc:It's just I think my my my my ground zero is a little more stable than you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My particular template of defenses is a little more socially apt.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, well, that's probably very much true.
Guest:I don't often give off the feeling that everything's going to be okay to an employer.
Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But also the problems you have, like there, there is something like, I think, which is what makes it so good with you is that your, your, your authentic self is in trouble.
Guest:Well, I don't, that is, yeah, like I,
Guest:I don't see that, but it's interesting.
Guest:I feel pretty stable, Mark.
Guest:I've been on a great cocktail of meds for 11 years.
Marc:I'm saying family of origin stuff.
Marc:Oh, family of origin.
Marc:The original, whatever's down in there.
Guest:Yeah, the wound.
Marc:You've definitely got it out.
Marc:Your wound gave birth.
Guest:Yes, my wound has given birth to several albums.
Guest:And my parents are now gone.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Are your parents still around?
Guest:No.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:My dad is losing his mind, so that's fun.
Marc:It's still in the fun part where he says funny things.
Marc:Where are you, Massachusetts?
Marc:Nope.
Marc:Oh, well, that's... And my mom's okay.
Marc:She doesn't... I think she's... Because she's like a lifetime eating disorder person.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And sadly...
Marc:Or not so sadly, because there's a bit in that book about your dad because I didn't really realize.
Marc:I don't know that we'd ever talked about.
Marc:I remember talking about the intrusive thoughts, but I don't remember talking about food with you.
Marc:Did we?
Guest:Yeah, I don't think so.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:Because like food is my thing.
Guest:Yeah, foods.
Guest:I mean, and that's just sort of an American plague.
Marc:But your dad poking Scott.
Guest:Oh, God insane.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's this?
Guest:What's this?
Guest:Have you been eating a couple of cakes and cookies?
Marc:Well, that was my mother.
Marc:I was terrified.
Marc:Like my first year of college, I lost, I got down to 169 pounds just to impress my mom.
Marc:And I looked terrible.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:But like, so there's always like, she would always like hug and then pinch the side, like that kind of stuff.
Marc:And it was just like the worst.
Marc:I couldn't, I just, I would always bring girlfriends to visit when I visit my mom in Florida, just as a shield.
Marc:She's coming in.
Guest:My mom, she did the shoulder-based hug, but then she would scan you up and down to see how your body was looking particularly that day.
Guest:But I wonder, because my mom, she passed, and then my dad, I think he may have been the source of all the fucked up...
Guest:Skinny stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because he started getting very obsessed.
Guest:Well, that was part of how he died was that he had a girlfriend who was lovely.
Guest:She was hilarious.
Guest:And he kept eating less and less, worried that he was going to get fat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then finally, he was very underweight.
Guest:He was like 125, 5'10".
Guest:And he got COVID and died.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wonder if part of that could have been depression, combination with the Karen Carpenter thing where it's like his brain wasn't functioning because he wasn't eating enough.
Guest:Or dementia.
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:But totes weird.
Marc:Well, it's odd as you get older when you're still putting together these pieces.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which, you know, you've been sort of vigilant about through your work.
Marc:And just personally, like this book, like outside of being a funny memoir and you keep it pretty funny, you know, you definitely give props to the things that helped you.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And they're organized things.
Marc:And also to the things that may help other people but, you know, didn't help you all the way through.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think that's also important to like not so people don't feel gaslight, you know, when you go into go, oh, well, they said it was going to help.
Guest:And then it's shitty.
Guest:You know, the health care isn't good or you get the wrong person.
Guest:Have you ever told the wrong therapist something and then you pay them 75 bucks to call the cops?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cops don't come because it's L.A.
Guest:They're busy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Can you just hold on a minute?
Marc:I have to make a phone call.
Marc:Stay here.
Guest:That totally happened.
Guest:Like, I was like, yeah, she was like, I'm a mandated reporter, so I need to tell, you know, because I was telling her about my intrusive thoughts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then she said, but it is, you need to make the check out to something in Associates.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:$75.
Marc:Right.
Marc:She was mandated to report you?
Guest:Yeah, because she was concerned I was going to be harmful to others due to my anxieties and fears.
Guest:And I was trying to tell her, I'm like, no, it's just a fear of.
Guest:I've never hurt anybody.
Guest:I am, in fact, staying in my apartment with my hands under my legs, trying to prevent myself from doing any monstrous things.
Marc:But the thing is, is that you've had these thoughts to varying degrees, some of them, you know, almost macabre.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, they're fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Since you were a kid and you never hurt anybody.
Marc:No.
Marc:So it was a condition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The evidence is not there that I'm going to hurt anybody.
Guest:But I think when people aren't, you know, don't know about what something is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And OCD is much more well known now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because Hallibadale, Hallibadale just talked about it.
Guest:And that's very, it does help when people talk about it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But this book, your book, oddly, comes at a good time for me.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:Like, you know, I'm horrified and excited that there are portions of it where I'm like, I think I better go to that one.
Guest:I love 12-step.
Guest:I mean, I know there's problematic language, pseudo-spiritual, sort of paternalistic.
Guest:Yeah, but you get past that, man.
Guest:Or do you?
Guest:I mean, I have like my husband, Scott, he was raised Jehovah Witnesses.
Guest:So whenever he hears all that nonsense, especially like the the knowing laughs in a in a meeting like I knew when I thought that there was no God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there's just so much kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You start to realize that that bleeding deacon bullshit is, it's like the people that work at central office.
Marc:It's like, who are those people?
Marc:Well, that's what they're doing to maintain sobriety.
Marc:Thank God.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:And they may be monstrous in some other avenue of their life.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I just want to acknowledge that nothing is going to be perfect, especially something that's
Guest:Especially when you make it God-like, which I think sometimes when they say, this saved my life.
Guest:It's like, well, this helped save your life along with human beings.
Guest:Like the human contact.
Guest:I don't...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:The part about I can just totally I can understand why people are turned off from it completely.
Marc:Well, I think that all the language around surrender and not giving any, you know, credit in the literature to to will, you know, is is it's not true.
Guest:Yeah, and cognitive behavioral science.
Guest:That's the same thing, right.
Marc:That a lot of it is acting as if.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Which is totally something you do in a CBT therapy or whatever is like going, okay, what would you do if you didn't do the thing?
Guest:Or harm reduction.
Guest:Like, okay, you're doing heroin every day.
Guest:Can you add pizza to that?
Guest:Can you eat an extra large pizza plus the heroin?
Marc:What's that bit in the book where –
Marc:Where you're talking about the eating disorder and having found OA.
Marc:And now, you know, you take longer to eat.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:Oh, hours.
Guest:Hours.
Guest:I'm mindfully and gratefully eating this.
Guest:Two pieces of bread.
Marc:And would you say chewing and breathing?
Marc:More chewing and breathing.
Guest:So stupid.
Guest:I mean, it did help me.
Guest:Obviously, Overeaters Anonymous helped me stop binging and purging.
Guest:Awesome.
Guest:But then at the same time, because of that 12-step program, because people were so kind of manic about, like, sugar to me is a rat poison.
Guest:I will die before I eat sugar.
Guest:You know, make 17 calls a day if you need to.
Guest:Keep yourself from...
Guest:It's like that is going to cause disordered eating and functioning in society.
Guest:So I ended up going through a treatment program after that.
Guest:And then my sponsor dumped me from OA because she said she couldn't sponsor someone who was – Pro-sugar?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Eating the devil's candies.
Marc:Well, that's the other thing that people don't realize about program and that –
Marc:Look, man, it only... AA, I think, only works for, like, 20... It's only got, like, a 20% success rate.
Marc:So, like, it's not for everybody.
Marc:If you can do it in some other way or if you grow out of it, whatever the fuck it is.
Marc:But for me, and I think for you also, beginning with...
Marc:whatever your first program was, is that there is a way of thinking that you learn.
Marc:And I think the inventory process is pretty good.
Guest:Well, it's super helpful of like going, okay, like when I went to Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, I was like... Was that the last one?
Guest:No, Debtors is your... Debtors is my main one.
Marc:I love it.
Guest:But I do go to Recovering Couples Anonymous.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:That is for couples who are both in recovery.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's about having powerlessness because I don't know how to have a relationship.
Guest:I don't know how to do it.
Guest:So I that's helped me just kind of like what behaviors might be more helpful than what I've what I do, which what I love to do is threaten suicide, which I thought was kittenish.
Guest:Turns out.
Marc:My dad did that my whole life.
Guest:Yeah, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My husband, his mom did that his whole life.
Guest:So he's like, okay.
Guest:So it doesn't even work.
Marc:It gets to the point where it's like, would you just do it already?
Marc:I'm tired of the crying.
Marc:It's annoying.
Marc:It's like this big thing.
Guest:Yeah, just like I'm waiting for it.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:Oh, but SLA, it did help me like going through the steps like, OK, what are the things that I've done?
Guest:And one of the things I didn't really.
Guest:Sex and love.
Guest:And my main thing was that I would have a one night stand like once a year.
Guest:That was somebody and yeah, that I was almost like cutting where I was like, it was abysmal, like a terrible situation and it kind of kept getting worse.
Guest:And also I couldn't maintain any relationship.
Guest:So, uh, the one thing that was really surprising to me in doing the inventory process was going, Oh, uh,
Guest:I'm a predator on some level.
Guest:Like, even though I'm like a lady and, you know, like I... But I would talk about being single on stage, which is totally like sending out a signal to all the people that are there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then going, I don't know why... Why am I so single?
Guest:And then...
Guest:Yeah, like really zeroing in on the one person who's vibing back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that might, if I thought of the other person as a human being, rather than, oh, they're just going to want what I want.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I may be victimizing them.
Guest:Because one thing, if you go to an SLA meeting, it's like going to a club when the lights have turned on.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's all hot people with weird blue-green eyes.
Marc:But there's some kind of sad kind of men that can't hold eye contact as well.
Guest:Well, it's also, no, I mean, I think it's a lot of people who, yeah, who thinking that romance or hooking up or something, that's where intimacy really is.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there's also sort of a hookers and porn contingent, too.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:It's mostly pretty normal.
Guest:I mean, not normal people, but you know what I'm saying.
Marc:Well, like, what you're saying is something that, that's one of the things that resonated with me about my entire life, is that because my parents were hyper-sexualized people... Aww...
Guest:I don't know why I'm oohing that.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:But there's part of me that sexualizes because I don't know how to be intimate.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't think people realize that you can sexualize.
Marc:You can have sex to avoid intimacy.
Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:And the point you made in the book, which, you know, I have been thinking about my own life in terms of my history, is that, you know, they're like when you are a compulsive sex person or you're doing the one night stands or whatever.
Marc:The idea is that, like, we're all on the same page, whereas you might not be like because if you're in that zone of hookups, you don't know you can hook up.
Marc:But what you don't necessarily take into consideration the other person.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and all the dishonesty of like when I would say, oh, why am I single?
Guest:Why am I single?
Guest:It's like, Maria, have you ever willingly gone out on a date, six dates with one person, no matter how uncomfortable it was, which is what I had to do to like start going on?
Guest:okay, you just, like, one of my sponsors told me, date them till you hate them.
Guest:Like, just, you've got to get to know someone.
Marc:Date them till you hate them?
Guest:That's a SWA slogan?
Guest:Yeah, because it's just like friendship.
Guest:You've got to slowly get to know someone.
Marc:Or else you're just projecting something.
Guest:You're just projecting some weird thing.
Guest:Also, I had such high standards for romance, like, so much higher than I had for my friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And my friends are a mess, just like myself.
Marc:Well, this is the thing about like, you know, holding yourself.
Marc:It's like you, you know, predatory is is a loaded word.
Marc:But the thing is, like, I know and you know that, you know, we we are OK people in a sense that we're trying to take responsibility for who we are.
Marc:But we're not we're coming from a mentally ill place.
Guest:Well, I just like the idea of, like, I'm never the victim.
Guest:Like, I'm not the victim of the situation.
Guest:Like, taking responsibility for my part in something.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But I've started to have to realize that, you know, whatever my actions were in the past or whatever failed relationships I've had, or even the good ones, you know, was it truly full of trust and intimacy and all that stuff?
Marc:Because most of the time, people get obsessed with me, and I like it.
Right.
Guest:It does.
Guest:Well, there's a sense of power and safety.
Marc:But that's also the love addiction part.
Marc:If someone's in love with you, that feeling.
Guest:But it's not really you.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not really you.
Marc:But that enables you to hide behind their perception of you.
Marc:Until this shit goes down.
Guest:Well, yeah, until they become irritating and you become irritating.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is the surest sign of intimacy.
Guest:Once you become irritated with someone, that's when you know you're in the brisket.
Marc:But I realized recently, and I've been talking about it on stage, because I talk about this shit.
Marc:I talk about borderline personality disorder.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Because I believe that I had a bit of it.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:And that I think my father was probably misdiagnosed and is of that ilk.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:He was sort of a bipolar guy.
Marc:But when you come from chaos, I find that I've dated not on purpose, people with a certain disposition.
Marc:And then after a certain point, it's like I'm not –
Marc:claiming I'm a victim, but I'm also not well.
Marc:So if I'm not going to deal with that, like, you know, what I come from.
Marc:So I've been talking about pretty hairy trauma lately to sort of somehow get some self-ownership around, you know, how I engage in the world.
Guest:That's awesome.
Guest:That sounds great.
Guest:It's okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, it's one of those things, like, especially with sex and love, Leah, once you're, you know, I'm a childless, twice-married guy.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And, you know, at a certain point, you're like, well, I've made these choices to be who I am.
Marc:But where the fuck do they come from?
Marc:You know, why am I like this?
Marc:Why am I incapable of intimacy?
Marc:Why?
Marc:You know, and you can track it to your parents and all that other stuff.
Marc:But at some point, like, either you go like, well, this is just the way I am.
Marc:Or you go, no, fuck.
Guest:i gotta work but everybody yeah everybody can change i mean i know that's absolutely i believe true i don't think i think they still themselves but you can make different decisions yeah totally yeah i mean i my husband and i uh like yeah to have different ways of seeing the world and like our our kind of our ways of
Guest:uh, dysfunctions kind of match each other, you know?
Guest:And I mean, that's what they always say in the, the couples groups of like, you're, you're just kind of trying to heal the childhood wound in relationships of, um, but yeah, like, uh, but we also, we, we also get a lot, lots of help cause like, which I've always done with everything.
Guest:Like I, we go see a therapist, we go see, um, I, uh,
Guest:I do couples, the couples 12-step group.
Guest:And there's another one called Chapter 9, which is about relationships in 12-step.
Guest:And it's great because it's like having some support around that stuff from people.
Guest:Because I don't know about you, but I have a lot of single friends and or people who have been married a long time.
Guest:And they just are kind of like, I don't know what you're talking about.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Or, you know, like they don't have the gift.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The gift.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:But oh, but the thing is about this wound idea and the trauma model, which I just read about the guy that sort of came up with that, like the body keeps the score guy.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And the evolution of that trauma model is that when you talk about a wound, you know, in your mind, you think like what happened?
Marc:But it's like it could be the whole fucking time.
Yeah.
Marc:The wound could be your entire childhood.
Guest:Yes, yeah, totally.
Marc:So, like, it's not some specific thing.
Marc:It's a pattern of shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:So, like, when I track... I've been doing this joke about, like, you know, just about...
Marc:being put in a position as a young kid.
Marc:You know, me and my brother, we were like five or six.
Marc:It was a babysitter.
Marc:And it was, you know, it was, he was, you know, it was a molesty position.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Marc:But I talk about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then I talk about, you know, like, and the audience is sort of like, oh, my God.
Marc:Because it was sort of like one of these memories where I always knew it was there, but I never thought that it went all the way through.
Marc:But I don't know how it wouldn't have, right?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But then I talk right after that, I talk about,
Marc:You know, like how my mother was incapable of folding a lunch bag properly.
Marc:Like, you know, most mothers would fold it so you had a little handle.
Marc:My mom would just squinch it up.
Marc:So it was this wrinkled fucking mess.
Marc:And she would put peanut butter jelly sandwiches in tinfoil.
Marc:So they were just look like bruised, wet things that were unedible.
Marc:And she put a diet pill in my bag, like a half a diet pill.
Marc:And I'm like, and so I set all this up and I go like that on a day to day basis for as long as it went on.
Marc:Much worse than whatever happened with the babies.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, and I commend you for talking about it because people don't talk about that, how, yeah, men also have experiences of being, well, also not just molested as children, but also manipulated by women, that women can be predators just as much as men can.
Guest:I mean, it's less likely to happen, but it does, it totally happens.
Marc:Depending on what your vulnerability is and, you know, and what the...
Marc:See, like, I believe and I've been talking about this a bit, too, that whatever your wound is, if you're walking around vulnerable to a certain type of mental illness because of what you come from, they're just going to see you as a like an open door.
Marc:I can get right in there and just rework the wires from the inside.
Marc:And it happens on an almost instinctual level.
Marc:Well, see, that's my point of like that there there's companions to your mental illness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When all my friends, all my friends grew up with alcoholism or, you know, yeah, have a lot of people with mental health issues.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or from Eastern Europe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The full spectrum.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so in the book, you kind of like you're pretty thorough.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you talk about your family and then you talk about the trauma of the violin, the Suzuki violin lessons.
Marc:But you also see sort of a silver lining to it.
Guest:Oh, a privilege trauma.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But no, but I mean, in terms of discipline.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And learning that, you know, if you work hard at something you don't even like that much, at least you will have worked hard.
Guest:And you will get better at it.
Guest:You will get weirdly better at it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which is strange.
Guest:And if you are motivated by your parents' love, you will do it for a lot longer than you should.
Marc:Love in quotes?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The light attention of my mom going, oh.
Guest:And then my dad going, wow.
Guest:That was it?
Guest:Well, my dad would have me play the violin on the front lawn for our unassuming neighbors who would say,
Guest:We really got to go.
Guest:She's great.
Guest:We've really got to go.
Guest:No, no, wait.
Marc:But the first sort of turn was the food?
Guest:Yeah, the food really helped.
Guest:I mean, if you ever want to stop thinking about anything, just start a diet.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, start a diet.
Marc:Start a diet.
Marc:Sure, starving yourself.
Guest:Yeah, Richard Simmons.
Marc:Oh, you had this cathartic moment with Richard Simmons as a child?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You loved him.
Guest:I just thought he was hilarious.
Guest:We had his book at home, and his book was hilarious.
Guest:He was just so sassy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I went on the diet that he said to go on, which I think was like 1,100 calories a day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were 11?
Guest:I was 10 or 11.
Guest:And I remember coming back to school, and the lunch lady was like, you've lost weight.
Guest:How did you do it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:An 11-year-old.
Guest:I'm like, Richard Simmons.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I had the same experience with the Stop the Insanity lady.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:But I was like, you know, in my 30s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Susie Powder.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I just love watching her.
Marc:I'm like, she's crazy, but it's great.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And Jessica Curzon was dating her.
Marc:I remember like years after Stop the Insanity, I was at the Comedy Cellar, and I kind of knew Jessica was there with her.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I kind of recognized her, and she said, I'm Susie Powder.
Marc:I'm like, no way.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And it was her.
Marc:They don't date anymore, but I got to meet her.
Guest:Have you talked to, okay, the Queen of Mean?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Lampanelli.
Marc:Not since she turned into a human.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I was like, oh, it'd be so interesting.
Guest:I would love to hear.
Marc:That's a good idea.
Guest:Yeah, because I was so delighted and surprised about that because it's just... I mean, she seems lighter, happier.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:She emanated a type of seething vibration that was like...
Marc:And I once saw her in Canada at one of the festivals at the Vogue Theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she had this electricity to the intensity of her anger that I literally had only experienced once before watching Sam Kenison.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Like it was a zone of electricity that you can make funny.
Marc:But like it's rare to be as angry as she was and to sort of make it palatable.
Marc:But it turns out I guess she was really not good.
Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, she is a great performer.
Guest:I saw a little about her doing podcasts and stuff.
Guest:She's very funny.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:What is their clinic?
Marc:What is her, I mean, what is her angle?
Guest:I think now, the last time I checked on her, because I use it as a sort of a hopeful thing.
Guest:Like I go, I could do something else.
Guest:That always makes me laugh when comedians are like, after being canceled, like, what else am I going to do?
Guest:I've been doing this for 30 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Almost anything.
Guest:If you can lean, you can clean.
Guest:You can do anything.
Guest:Anything.
Guest:But, yeah, I want to say that she's doing coaching.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:And a podcast with a couple of friends.
Marc:So, for you, the food thing got you into the idea of getting better.
Yeah.
Guest:Uh, I called the suicide hotline when I was 19.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Cause I was just like, I cannot stop binging and, and yeah, it was starting to get, yeah, I just, I just felt like I couldn't stop and I just wanted to, uh, I'd never been a person who acted on suicidal ideation, but thought about it all the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I used to do a bit where it's like, I don't really want to kill myself, but it makes me feel better knowing I can, if I have to.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That's very funny.
Marc:Well, you do a similar thing, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, I'm not a doer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah.
Guest:And they gave me the number for Overeaters Anonymous.
Guest:And then somehow, just even knowing that something existed, I was kind of weirdly relieved of that.
Guest:wanting to binge anymore or starve myself and that became that's my only absence that I just don't diet I don't uh don't binge and don't uh yeah yeah I don't get on the scale anymore yeah
Marc:Like, you know, I won't do it.
Marc:But I am still sort of – I do exercise to the point where by the end of the week I feel beat up.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I just can't.
Marc:I have to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, and –
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think it's the least of all possible things.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're not hurting anybody but yourself.
Marc:And you look great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that moment was a moment where you realized like that behavior that seems comforting could be bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or it was just that something free could help.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And my parents didn't... So you knew you were in trouble.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My parents didn't think I had a problem.
Guest:They were sort of like, oh, you seem to be doing all right.
Guest:And yeah, and I just wasn't.
Guest:And yeah, so that helped me.
Guest:And then my second group was when I was, I think, 25.
Guest:I got into Debtors Anonymous when I moved to L.A.
Guest:and I fell into a whole...
Guest:And somebody told me at an OA meeting, they're like, hey, you can learn how to have a job and keep a job if you go over there, weirdo.
Guest:And sometimes I can now keep jobs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you do have that weird thing.
Marc:Like I was talking to the documentarian, Neil.
Guest:Yes, Neil.
Yeah.
Marc:And I said, like, the interesting thing about how you do comedy and how—and I introduced him to the word peopling, which is people the stage, whereas, like, it's not a thing you see as much anymore where someone generates characters that interact with each other in a bit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, and it's a lot of what you do, and it's not—it just—you don't see it.
Marc:But I told him, like, there is something underneath—
Marc:All of it when she's sort of satirizing, you know, maybe not intentionally, but doing what she does is that, you know, I appreciate the fact that there's a lot of fuck you under it.
Guest:Well, I got to tell you, the whole documentary, half my new material is about how trying to get paid to do stuff.
Guest:Like especially when like somebody – and I don't know if you have this or have this thing of like –
Guest:like emotional stuff that comes up about around money and then asking about it, especially when it involves a famous person with perceived power who I go, Oh, what they'll think of me if I say, Hey, I need to get paid to do, do this thing.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I just, I, I find that super, I like talking about, yeah, things that are emotional.
Yeah.
Marc:But no, but the expectation is that, you know, they're doing you a favor or you're not supposed to ask about it.
Marc:Like, yeah, I remember with these produced shows, like these comics that produce shows, and they were doing it at the comedy store.
Marc:And I don't really do produced shows.
Marc:You know, I just do the store and I work out and I get my shit done.
Marc:And then when I need to do long shit, I'll go to Dynasty Typewriter or some clubs and figure it out so I can build the act.
Marc:But these guys were just sort of like grabbing people from the hall who are national headliners and being like, you want to do this?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:200 bucks.
Marc:And I did it once.
Marc:And then I said to him, like, you know, 200 bucks is not even what I pay my feature.
Marc:And I'm doing 25 minutes on your fucking show.
Marc:And just because it's down the hall, maybe you should try to pay me more fairly for the job I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And now it's like 500 or whatever.
Guest:No!
Guest:Nice.
Guest:I thought that was just a fun.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Cause like it is, um, well, yeah, I'm telling, yeah, I try to, uh, I bring a hundred dollars out on stage and I pay an audience member very slowly in twenties.
Guest:Um, and then we all sit with how that feels.
Guest:And then I ask them to pay it back to me.
Guest:And I tell them, you will get the money at the end because we value your emotional work tonight.
Guest:And yeah, because it's just, I mean, I have enough money, generational wealth.
Guest:My dad passed away.
Guest:So anyways, I can retire at 65.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I wonder why, especially when I don't really need the money, why I still get mad about it.
Marc:It feels disrespectful, unfair, and not correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or and why do other people have emotions about it?
Guest:So like I asked somebody to pay me at a show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They paid me.
Guest:There's a show on the West Side, which we all know if you ask to go to the West Side.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's like asking you to go to Nairobi.
Marc:Yeah, you're out here with me.
Marc:Via Singapore.
Marc:Further out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to bring a tent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You better bring two meals with me in a box.
Yeah.
Guest:And so I said, hey, can you pay me $1,000 and send me a car?
Guest:And so they did.
Guest:Then the person paid me out in hundreds on stage slowly in front of the audience.
Marc:Did you ask that?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, that is not what I asked.
Guest:So, which is fine.
Guest:I love $1,000, however it comes to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was interesting.
Guest:Like, I was like, oh, this person is having an emotional reaction about paying me.
Guest:Like, either are they mad that I should just want to do whatever this is because I'm a good friend or that this is such a wonderful show?
Guest:That's a lot of things in L.A.
Guest:It's like, but it's going to be such a great crowd.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't care.
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:Yeah, and great for whatever you think great is is not great for me necessarily.
Marc:It's the worst thing to hear when I'm in the green room at the comedy store, a comic walk in like, oh, they're amazing.
Marc:I'm like, fuck.
Marc:If they were amazing for you, what am I going to do?
Marc:But there was a humiliation attempt, it seems, with the paying on stage.
Guest:Well, but I don't know if that's true.
Guest:I think that person may have felt so hurt by me asking for the money.
Guest:I just wonder if that's what was going on.
Marc:see i don't like okay fine well so you're you're uh extending do you think you're you're you're uh do you think you're actually empathetic or just so fucking critical yourself that you end up at empathy i'm act i am empathetic because i do know that people have really strong feels around money i mean i've been in da so i've been for like 25 years
Guest:So I've heard all sorts of stories where it's like people are like, yeah, just weeping uncontrollably because they're not sure how to – yeah, whatever it is their financial fear is.
Guest:So I get it.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:But it's just fascinating.
Guest:Like I love – I'm excited about that chunk of my act.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's very exciting.
Marc:This is a new act.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because, I mean, the last time I saw you, we were both sharing a stage in Toronto for, like, four shows.
Marc:We got to watch each other.
Marc:And it had been years since I saw you, and I had the same reaction I always have.
Marc:It's like, I got to quit.
Guest:Oh, stop it.
Marc:She's already doing all of it.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:They used to feel that way about Dana Gould.
Marc:It's like, all right, well, that's the end of it.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:Yeah, he's so great.
Guest:Yeah, no, I love festivals because then we can all see.
Guest:I mean, there's so many.
Marc:I'm glad that they put us out in that weird theater that people had to, you know, like go like, are we going to the haunted World's Fairgrounds?
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was like, couldn't it be further away from the rest of the festival to the point, like, what is wrong with me and Maria that we're out in this venue that they don't even clean, apparently?
Guest:It's okay.
Marc:It was fine.
It's okay.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:We did all right.
Guest:Yeah, no, it was fine.
Guest:It was lovely.
Guest:I'm grateful ever to be paid to do anything.
Marc:But that was the interesting part about, like, that out of all of them, and, you know, you talk...
Marc:specifically about OA.
Marc:You talk about SLAA a little later in the book.
Marc:You talk about the, I don't know, but was there another, you didn't do any drug stuff.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Marc:Somehow I. But then you talked about the artist's way.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I could tell what you were passionate about because despite what any judgment people have about, what was her name, Julia Cameron's thing?
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:It's like I knew people at that time that were doing it and I was given the books as a gift by I think Caroline Ray.
Guest:Aww.
Marc:And, you know, as soon as I saw the workbook, I'm like, I'm not fucking doing this.
Marc:You know, I got weed to smoke.
Guest:You know, so.
Marc:What kind of bullshit – how is this going to help me, these exercises?
Marc:So I don't even think I could write a term paper right now.
Marc:Like I just – I'm not – I don't love writing like that.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Even though it was exploratory.
Marc:I do write a thing.
Marc:I can write.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You've written a couple books.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I don't love it.
Marc:Three?
Marc:Okay, I don't love it.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Did you love writing this?
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:I like the –
Guest:It was just, yeah, it was a lesson in, well, first of all, a book deal is, I should have read the contract.
Guest:I should have read the contract.
Marc:Wait, you just hope it sells because like, I don't know how book publishers make money because I wrote a book in 2002 called Jerusalem Syndrome.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And quarterly I still get statements, you know, showing the money it hasn't made back yet.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that deal was only 30K.
Marc:And it's still in the fucking red.
Marc:And it's sort of like, I'm not sure I need this reaffirmation.
Guest:That is hilarious.
Guest:They feel the need to send you an envoy or a breakout.
Marc:Well, they do.
Marc:The agent breaks it down.
Marc:And it's like, when I wrote my last book, I'm like, I don't want to write this.
Marc:And then there was some weird bidding war.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, well, that's money.
Marc:I'll take that money.
Marc:And in my head, I'm like, they're never going to make it back.
Marc:They're never going to make it back.
Marc:And sure enough, I get those quarterly invoices too.
Marc:And that one's much deeper in the hole.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:But I stop it feeling bad for the publisher.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because they're making their money off of cookbooks.
Marc:It has nothing to do with us.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No.
Guest:Somebody – or there's a wonderful book out, Jeanette McCurdy, which is very funny and super sad about I'm Glad My Mother Died.
Guest:That's a very funny book.
Marc:Catchy title.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So the fact is – but didn't this feel like a fucking assignment?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I was excited.
Guest:I mean, I love the idea that someone offers me money.
Guest:I go, oh, my God, I can't wait till it comes.
Guest:And then what a book is is the thing that I don't like, which is a group project.
Guest:I want to be more like a group project person, but then people edit you.
Guest:Like I wanted to put in the book.
Guest:I wanted to put an ongoing financial open book accounting of what I was earning.
Guest:You did this in there?
Guest:I did a little bit, yeah.
Guest:No, but I had many more numbers.
Marc:But this is an interesting thing.
Marc:about it, and we'll get back to the artist's way, is that, like, you know, I'm reading the book, and I understand your compulsion for transparency.
Guest:Tell everybody everything.
Guest:Poop it out.
Guest:Around your finances.
Marc:But, like, I couldn't understand your commitment to it.
Marc:Like, it is an active sort of, you know, beef in the book where it's sort of like, I don't give a fuck what they say, but I'm going to do at least a year, you know, broken down in tables of where my money goes and how much I made.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I feel like it's my... Have you read The Giving Tree?
Guest:Where all the tree has left is a stump to sit on.
Guest:I have nothing more to give.
Guest:I'm not useful in terms of comedic material.
Guest:Nobody needs to hear from an older white woman.
Guest:Oh, what's, what's your take on things?
Marc:But I don't, but I, I don't, I don't necessarily, it's not that I don't buy it, but it's, it's just, it's fundamentally not true what you're saying, but go ahead.
Guest:I, I just, I know it's what you believe.
Guest:This is what I think of myself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I think, oh, I'd like to, cause I know some people won't ask for more money and the money for openers and middles has not gone up since I was an opener 25 years ago.
Guest:So,
Guest:I would like people to know what other people are making.
Guest:Like a comedian like me, they'd go, oh, somebody's asked me to open for them.
Guest:What should I ask for?
Guest:Because I've been in a situation where people open for me and I go, hey, how much is the club paying you?
Guest:And they go, oh, 50 bucks, 100 bucks.
Guest:And I go, okay, well, then I'll pay you $600 to $1,000 for the week so that you're getting paid.
Guest:And I'll let you know what I'm earning so you get a picture.
Guest:You know, if somebody else asks you to open.
Marc:Yeah, well, that was helpful to me in the way just as a comic because, like, I'll definitely, like, if somebody comes with me on the road and features and stuff, you pay for their plane.
Marc:You pay for their hotel.
Marc:I think I'm giving them good money, but then I look at the money you're giving them.
Marc:I'm like, maybe I should give them a little more.
Yeah.
Guest:I pay Jackie Cation when she comes with me $1,200 plus air and hotel.
Marc:For one night.
Guest:For one night.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:For one show if one show is like $10,000 or more.
Guest:So sometimes I can't afford to bring her because she's a headliner too.
Guest:So if I'm doing somebody local, depending on how much I'm earning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think it also depends on what I'm earning.
Guest:I did for a while when I had the TV show, I did profit sharing and I paid a percentage, whatever percentage of the show they did, I would pay them a percentage of the income.
Marc:Well, I think that's correct, and I think it's making me rethink.
Marc:Like, I think I'm going to Salt Lake City next weekend, and I don't think I'm bringing an opener because I just didn't get one together.
Marc:I asked, like, one person, and they couldn't.
Marc:I'm like, all right, well, fuck it.
Marc:But I imagine the club will have a local.
Marc:But, like, in general, I'd let the club pay, but, you know, it seems like I should rethink it.
Guest:Oh, it's bullshit.
Guest:They're being paid, like, 150 tops for five shows.
Guest:Yeah, it makes me furious that... Also, this is for stadium shows, too.
Guest:Like, I've had a friend open for somebody at a stadium where they were getting paid, like, maybe a hundred bucks.
Guest:And you go, that... It's just... It's not only... Like, it's just... Have some curiosity about what somebody's making, you know?
Guest:Like, I just... I get...
Marc:No, I think that's correct.
Marc:It's correct.
Marc:And, you know, it made me sort of like it's in my head now.
Marc:But like I've never, you know, I've always paid people pretty well when they open for me and buy dinners and whatever.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Do all that stuff.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Go do things and, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's why you got to really plan your openers.
Marc:It's sort of like we're going to be going.
Marc:We're doing this.
Guest:We're friends.
Guest:We're going to be good friends.
Marc:I was on the road with Lara Byte, you know, for a long time.
Marc:Do you know her?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:She's great.
Guest:I don't know anybody.
Marc:And she's like a Midwestern woman from Wisconsin.
Marc:But she's very sort of like, you know, she's, you know, a eating person and a recovery person.
Marc:And we just had, you know, we would spend hours and hours together in the car, talking it out, doing this stuff.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Having the food, doing, you know, like trying to eat right.
Marc:Like it all made sense.
Marc:I have toured with Esther Pavitsky.
Marc:Oh, Esther.
Marc:Yeah, and she's like weird with food.
Marc:So I'm like, great.
Marc:This is going to work out great.
Marc:We can talk about how we're not eating, what we're not eating.
Marc:But also when you spend – like when you do those runs where you rent the car and you drive to the different gigs in the region.
Marc:It's like I started to realize with both of them, it's sort of like, all right, well, they don't feel like talking right now.
Marc:And we can just drive in silence and that's fine.
Marc:It's totally okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:Well, and I think especially as – I mean in any job where there's like authority figures, like I'm in a position of power.
Guest:So if I say – like anybody who I ask to open to me is going to be like, yeah.
Guest:Of course, of course, I'd love to open.
Guest:I'd love to open.
Guest:Oh, I'll be super easy about it.
Guest:I'll be so easy about it.
Guest:Like, you know, people refusing money or whatever.
Guest:So I think that that's part of it, too, is like people are don't want to say anything or anyways be a problem.
Marc:OK, so the transparency about money in the book in terms of actual sort of breakdowns is really just for you to to to sort of assess and show what you believe is to be fair.
Guest:Or that I'm trying, and if somebody notices that I'm not being fair, oh, my God, Twitter at me or acts at me.
Marc:When you kind of broke down your charitable contributions, which I just did a bunch of like a week or so ago, because, like, I'm not organized.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, fuck, I got to do the charity stuff.
Marc:And I have, you know, five or six things I give to, but I don't know that I'm giving enough.
Marc:And you and I are in the same boat.
Marc:I'm fine.
Marc:I don't have kids.
Marc:You know, I'm not, you know—
Marc:And, like, I don't know where my money goes, but you just have to make that leap and be like, well, give it away, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We give 11%.
Guest:That's 1% better than all Christians to the Downtown Women's Center.
Guest:We just give it to one place because I can't do the bookkeeping on more than that.
Marc:I just do a lot of animals, Planned Parenthood, and ACLU.
Marc:Oh, nice.
Marc:But that Women's Center seems good.
Guest:No, everything's good.
Guest:But that's the OCD part of it where it's like I go, well, why not 12%?
Guest:I mean, if you're going to be such a weirdo about it.
Marc:I give money to the Carolina Tiger Rescue.
Marc:There's a place in North Carolina where they get all these big cats that people buy as pets, but then they eat their dog or something or whatever.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Whoops.
Marc:Yeah, like, don't buy a tiger as a pet, stupid.
Marc:There's apparently not laws.
Marc:People can just own bears.
Marc:But no, it's mostly cats.
Marc:Or they're roadside attractions, zoos that get mistreated.
Marc:So they end up at this place, and they just have it there.
Marc:You could go, and it's sort of a zoo, but it's all these cats and stuff that were kind of like in awkward situations or...
Marc:abusive situations and they have them there and they have a whole environment for them and i went there once with an old girlfriend and i was like i'm gonna give them money all the time so keep the tigers going it's the sad cats the sad cats well yeah when you don't need uh yeah i don't need anything anymore i would love to have health care uh that's probably gonna end if i don't if the strike goes on but i got in under the wire i think yeah but with a job that's gonna carry me through next year anyways
Guest:But if I don't, I still, yeah.
Marc:You can still afford health insurance.
Guest:I can still afford health insurance.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, but, okay.
Marc:So that's the debtor thing, which really seems to be the one that, you know, holds your life together.
Guest:I love that one.
Guest:It's just fun.
Guest:It's like, it's like a weird Tony Robbins with a debit card.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know.
Marc:But what did the artist's way do for you in terms of your creativity?
I love it.
Guest:Well, I loved it because it opened up the possibility and also, like, sort of the creativity of, like, oh, what is it I exactly want to do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, and that that's okay, that I exactly want to do that thing.
Guest:And to go where the love is, like, to, if I don't feel comfortable in a space, a lot of times I don't do well at clubs.
Guest:I just don't.
Guest:Instead of going, you got to hammer it out, Bamford.
Guest:You got to go.
Guest:It's like...
Marc:I remember that was one of the first feelings I had about you when I first saw you.
Marc:And it lasted for years.
Marc:I'm like, she's going out to regular places and doing that?
Marc:I mean, she's a genius and they're just going to hurt her.
Marc:She's going to hurt herself every time.
Marc:It's like every comedy club is like, where's the trauma center?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why do I have to be re-traumatized, please?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, sometimes that happened.
Guest:And certainly it still happens.
Guest:I try to avoid doing benefits.
Marc:No winning.
Guest:Would everyone stop having artistic performances that you have to suffer through on behalf of Parkinson's?
Guest:What's the point?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, I did a schizophrenia research nonprofit benefit.
Guest:And it turns out the guy who hired me, big fan, because he has schizophrenia.
Guest:Mono to mono.
Guest:Totally hear you, man.
Guest:The people he's trying to get money from are wino ladies in Napa Valley.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And then I sunk like a stone.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Oh, my God, yes.
Guest:It was abysmal.
Marc:Were they like, is she a patient?
Yeah.
Guest:They started clapping me off stage.
Guest:It was either that they thought I was done or they hoped I was done.
Guest:I still had about 20 minutes left.
Guest:And so I said, I got to do the time.
Guest:And so sorry.
Marc:It's so funny that we grew up in that.
Guest:But I will.
Guest:But I will bring up Howie Mandel, who is what everybody wanted to see.
Guest:Oh, he was there?
Yeah.
Marc:But no, but I have that same ethic.
Marc:And it's weird because I still like I go to the comedy store, you know, three times a week just to stay in shape.
Marc:And then but the difference between doing that and then doing Dynasty with my people is profound.
Marc:But I still believe that I need to have my chops in order, my club chops.
Marc:And I don't know when that goes away, but I've questioned it.
Marc:But there's also part of me that, you know, at the comedy store, I do something where it's sort of like you start doing 15 or 20 new minutes and you kind of really kind of work it.
Marc:And you kind of feel like, well,
Marc:I figured out this way to do a joke efficient set that's varied.
Marc:And it's that's the job.
Marc:And I think we have that in our head that like the job is you go make strangers laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're up there for 50 minutes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:At the least.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it doesn't matter if the if they like the middle better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, and I've often switched with the middle halfway through the week.
Marc:I couldn't do that.
Marc:I'll go up there and take the hit.
Marc:And if I'm not doing well, I'll do longer.
Marc:I will sit down and we'll just all sit in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:We'll sit in my wound for an hour and a half.
Guest:Well, I can totally appreciate that.
Guest:I love watching Andy Kindler when he is yelling at people as they run out the door.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I wonder how he's doing.
Marc:I sometimes worry about him.
Marc:They're not getting out of the house enough.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I didn't know that.
Guest:I've got to contact him.
Marc:Yeah, just say hi.
Marc:I sometimes see him on what's left of Twitter.
Marc:So the Artist's Way gave you the sort of strength to realize you were doing a thing and you could do it on your terms.
Guest:And what I wanted to do, and also that I could start saying that I was doing it, and it didn't matter if anybody else thought I was doing it.
Guest:And, yeah.
Guest:And some people might say, oh, that's mania.
Guest:But...
Guest:But it's also it was very helpful.
Marc:But you talk about mania and stuff like I don't know.
Marc:I'm not clear on the difference between, you know, dopamine and joy.
Marc:And like, I, you know, there's a lot of ways to break stuff down.
Marc:But but mania, you've had it.
Guest:Well, I've had hypomania where it's like I feel driven, where I feel like pressured speech.
Guest:I need to do this.
Guest:I need to tell everybody about this thing, and I need to tell everybody about this thing, and then this is going to happen, and then this is going to happen.
Guest:Like, yeah, definitely seemed a little off.
Marc:Now—
Marc:So, it seems like those are the big ones.
Marc:OA, Artist's Way, Debtors Anonymous.
Marc:And then, like, I'm right at the book.
Marc:And I felt bad because I think you'd appreciate it.
Marc:Like, I like, you know, I know you, but I'd like to know the book.
Marc:The book has a lot of funny in it, a lot of food in it, but a lot of helpful stuff, a lot of honesty about your process.
Marc:But, like, I didn't finish it because, and I realized, like, it's something I do.
Marc:I remember...
Marc:When I was in junior high, I tried to read, because I didn't for the entire year.
Marc:I had tried to read the entire Chronicles of Narnia in a weekend.
Guest:Oh, my Lord.
Marc:So I could write a paper about it, and it didn't happen.
Marc:But I did get through a lot of your book.
Marc:But I'm right up to the point where the book is...
Marc:is called Sure, I'll Join Your Cult.
Marc:And the framework is that, you know, the family is the first cult.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then onward through actual cults, though you did not seem to join any cults that were specifically exploitive financially.
Guest:uh yeah i've invited i was invited to be a part of a couple but yeah um yeah but i don't and this may be a joke but i do think if you don't have access to mental health care or you might want to consider joining the jehovah witnesses just for a week yeah you know just go all in yeah get all the free mac and cheese and
Marc:But then you're handing out magazines.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it's just a week.
Guest:Then you pull out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think the endorphin rush, you know, going in and going out might really shake something loose.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:But I'm right up to the point of the breakdown.
Marc:I guess it's the first real breakdown where you end up hospitalized.
Guest:Yes, which I've told that story so many times before.
Marc:Well, you don't have to tell that story, but how many times were you hospitalized?
Guest:Just three.
Guest:Listen, Mark, it's not many times.
Guest:When was the last time?
Guest:It was 2011.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's been a long time.
Guest:I've been on mood stabilizers and antipsychotic for 11 years, 12 years.
Marc:And they've got it balanced?
Marc:Because I knew other people that.
Marc:There was that weird thing when psychopharmaceuticals that treated these things were fairly new.
Marc:Rick Shapiro in particular, I used to see Rick, and you wouldn't see him for a while, and then you'd see him be like, I don't know what's going on, but I think I'm on the wrong meds.
Marc:So there was just a process of finding the right meds.
Guest:I'm getting a new psychiatrist, right?
Guest:As we speak, I have a new appointment.
Guest:Because my current psychiatrist, he does text appointments.
Guest:He'll text me and say, this counts as an appointment.
Guest:I'm like, is that what you're telling yourself?
Guest:Because I don't think that's real.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But there's a whole thing with health care right now where it's like, you know, you've got the portal on your phone because you're at the app.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's how they're sort of giving cancer diagnoses.
Marc:Did you check the results in the portal?
Marc:Can I just talk to the doctor?
Marc:Well, you can do all this online now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Not good.
Marc:Numbers are not good.
Marc:Can I talk to the doctor now?
Marc:We'll set up an appointment.
Guest:That is so interesting.
Guest:The portal.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Go to the portal.
Marc:Go to the portal.
Marc:But so the hospitalizations, outside of telling the story about the first breakdown again, you knew enough the second two times that you were in trouble?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like, I was not feeling...
Guest:When I feel – the difference between suicidal ideation and planning to kill yourself, I now know that.
Guest:I go, it was unbearable every single moment.
Guest:Just for whatever reason, my brain went a little off the rails and just – it was monstrous.
Guest:So I totally get it when people commit suicide now.
Guest:I just go –
Guest:oh, man, I'm amazed you last as long as you did because it's really bad.
Guest:And I have a section of that in the book.
Guest:Not like, oh, great, go do it.
Guest:But just like don't be such an ass if somebody does it and go, oh, you should have.
Guest:It's like you have no idea what else can.
Marc:And a lot of times people don't and they feel guilty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That because so much of that is hidden and people are just sucking it up and going through that without help.
Marc:And then they make that decision and people who know them are like, we didn't.
Marc:No idea.
Marc:She seemed to do was doing better.
Guest:Doing great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it also is an impulsive act.
Guest:So sometimes, you know, it happens in all sorts of different ways.
Marc:I read the greatest article about it, about guns, but it was an article about.
Marc:The type of natural gas they use for the stoves in England.
Marc:It was a study they did.
Marc:Do you know this one?
Guest:No, but is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Had much less suicides because they changed the gas.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:The other one was a lot more toxic and people could just stick their head in the oven.
Marc:But this one didn't work that well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So but a lot of the people that planned to didn't.
Marc:But so the argument was, like, if there's not a gun there, the odds are you're not going to blow your head off.
Guest:That's the first thing they say when you are, you know, on a suicide counselor on the telephone or whatever.
Guest:They say, you know, can you – is there a way you can take whatever object, you know, whether it's razors or – Yeah.
Guest:And put them in a place where you can't see them or in another room because, yeah, make it a little more safe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So –
Marc:So you knew enough to commit yourself?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:My friend said, hey, you know when you told us about your family having mental health problems and if you talk a little too fast, maybe I would joke about it, like saying, if I ever start going mental, just let me know, give it a ride.
Guest:And they said, it's happening.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Marc:All three times?
Guest:Uh, the third time it was, uh, my therapist, uh, 51 50 me like she was, and I, and I'm glad just cause once you are hospitalized, sometimes they start sending you home with all sorts of meds.
Guest:I mean, I had, I could have killed myself any day of the week.
Guest:Like I had, and I, and I, I,
Guest:Yeah, and I was considering doing it because there is that sense.
Guest:Also, like with any chronic illness, like this is not ending.
Guest:There's no end to this.
Guest:And no one's—I don't have any confidence that it will end.
Marc:Your mentals.
Guest:Yeah, the mentals.
Guest:But I think chronic pain—I mean, people deal with this stuff all the time.
Marc:So knowing that and knowing that there was help available—
Guest:I was just grateful.
Guest:I said, can you promise that you're not going to do anything tonight when I let you home?
Guest:And I was like, no, no.
Guest:I feel terrible now.
Guest:And so, yeah, then I went into that hospital.
Guest:I went through an outpatient program two times in Glendale Adventist Medical Center where they're vegetarians because of the Adventist thing.
Guest:And then they have a little gong that goes off and they say a prayer three times a day.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And, yeah.
Guest:Gongs are nice.
Guest:Gongs.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:I think it was a bell.
Guest:It's like a gong, gong.
Guest:And the good thing about the hospital, which has so many problems, is that you're sort of safe.
Guest:You're sort of safe from harming yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not saying it's not totally possible.
Guest:You could figure something out.
Guest:There's a rubber curtain that could be made into a noose.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the odds are better.
Guest:Yeah, odds are better.
Guest:And it helped.
Marc:But you brought a bunch of meds home.
Marc:I tossed those eventually.
Guest:Yeah, because the second time I went through the outpatient treatment program, I finally became willing to go on this old-timey medication Depakote.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:My dad was on that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And part of the side effects are weight gain.
Guest:And which I did experience.
Guest:And I just never wanted to go on it.
Guest:I just didn't want to go on it because of weight gain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I decided to go on it.
Guest:And it was.
Guest:And that's the thing that helped.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That and the Seroquel.
Guest:And yeah, I haven't.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I hate.
Guest:This is the thing people do in Los Angeles where they'll be like.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I have a psychopharmacologist who's amazing.
Guest:And you see them.
Guest:He's on a helicopter pad in Malibu from 2 to 3 p.m.
Guest:With a bag.
Guest:He does like a $5,000.
Guest:You have to send him $5,000 in Canadian through Zelle.
Guest:But...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I don't have the greatest care.
Guest:I'm sure there's some other med I could be on that would be better.
Guest:Because I have to take a propanopole to perform so that I don't shake my way offstage.
Marc:Oh, you have that beta blocker?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but maybe there is.
Marc:But the truth is, it's like management is where you want to be.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:you know, being perfect kind of drifts away after a certain age where you're sort of like, can we just get me manageable?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just want to be able to enjoy a hot fudge sundae.
Marc:Or four.
Guest:Or four.
Guest:And fall asleep into my soup.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it seems like, you know, in talking about your relationships, and I remember the guy from New Zealand.
Marc:I remember him.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Marc:But it seems like this guy is, you know, definitely the guy.
Marc:The guy you're with now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:Because, Scott, the thing is, is both of us knew that we had, you know, serious problems.
Guest:Like, he had never had a relationship last.
Guest:I think that's over—I think his record was two years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One was one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, let's do this.
Guest:Let's go to therapy.
Guest:Let's do everything.
Guest:And I was like, right on.
Guest:You know, like, somebody—that's all I wanted is, like, somebody to—
Guest:To love and be loved by at that point in my life.
Guest:And I think that was as a result of being hospitalized of like seeing people in the hospital with schizophrenia.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With major mental health issues who were married.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This guy's making cuckoo noises.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's got three kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's fine.
Guest:He's making it work.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Love it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it seems like a pretty, yeah, because I know that what we're leading towards in the book, even though I didn't finish it, there's no, like, you know, button on it.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It's like, guess I'm good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I'm not going to write one of those memoirs where they go, guess what?
Guest:Totally wrong, that last memoir.
Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm doing something completely different because unless somebody gives me money.
Marc:Even though you don't need it.
Guest:I don't need it, but I love to get it.
Marc:And also the fact that all the stuff about your sister who gave up being an M.D.
Marc:to become a shaman, spiritual, holistic health care provider.
Marc:Where's that show?
Oh.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, she she's pitched it.
Guest:She's pitched it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That wasn't in Lady Dynamite, was it?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And I think it's a really personal thing.
Guest:I think it's so ripe, very easy to make fun of.
Marc:You know, I'm talking about the two of you, the two of us.
Marc:I'm not just talking about her character.
Marc:I mean, just the difference in, you know, your approaches.
Guest:Yeah, my sister's hilarious.
Guest:We have tried to do some work together.
Guest:And it's just, I think it's hard.
Guest:Like I have a younger, the younger sister point of view where I just go, stop.
Guest:Stop it.
Guest:Why won't you let me?
Guest:I'm doing something cool too.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The scene in the book where you start doing push-ups?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I mean, that was recently, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My sister and my dad were talking about something on the porch, and they were all into it.
Guest:And for some reason, I just thought, I need this.
Guest:And I got down on the porch and started doing push-ups.
Guest:And I think I did it like five times.
Guest:And my sister said, without stopping their conversation, I can do 10 push-ups and I do them every day.
Guest:It's a really good way to start the day.
Guest:And then I got down and did 10 more push-ups.
Marc:And it's just because the conversation wasn't enough about you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Well, there's a reason I got into comedy.
Guest:It's because I enjoy eyes over here.
Guest:So...
Marc:Well, I like talking to you and listening to you.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Marc:And also, but the book, like, it was really, like, provocative to me because I'm like, I got some work to do.
Guest:Well.
Guest:Never too late.
Guest:Never too late.
Guest:No, there's always some new.
Guest:fresh, fresh thing to get into.
Marc:So where are you at with stand up like that?
Marc:The hour that we were doing up there were because I did my special.
Marc:And I guess you probably put that in the can somehow.
Guest:Yes, put that in the can.
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:And
Guest:So yeah, just keep going.
Guest:I'm just going to keep going.
Guest:One thing that I'm excited about, I'm training to be a peer specialist, which is a new thing.
Guest:If you have lived experience with mental health or addiction issues, you can be a paid peer specialist in almost every state in our country.
Guest:It usually pays like about $20, $30 an hour.
Marc:What, you mean you hang around with the person and go like, no, don't?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's a specific philosophy, but it's funded federally and statewide for emergency groups because now instead of sending the cops out, a lot of states have emergency mental health teams.
Guest:And so anyways, so anybody interested in doing that, there's probably a training thing near you.
Guest:I just did an 80-hour training, and it's free.
Guest:All you have to do is ask for a scholarship.
Yeah.
Guest:I did not.
Guest:I paid for it because guess what?
Marc:You got some money.
Marc:I'm rich.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:I know I saw in the book that it looks like you're doing all right.
Guest:Doing all right.
Guest:Well, especially after my dad died.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Cash cow.
Guest:I love you, dad.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So much.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:Both of my parents are relatively broke and somehow or another I landed on my feet and I can't.
Marc:Like now I give him money sometimes.
Guest:My mom told me when I was 35, she's like, oh, honey, we're not leaving you a dime.
Guest:But then they both died early, which is super sad, and they left a chunk of change.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Did you put that in the book?
Guest:What?
Guest:No, I finished the book before my dad passed.
Guest:That's so sad.
Guest:But it really does blow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's what happens.
Marc:How are you with the grief?
Marc:Do you do it?
Guest:Yes, I think about my father.
Guest:My sister just sent me a tenth of my father in the mail in a little plastic baggie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We've had some bone chips, so I could really think about him.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And we're going to spread that in the yard, you know.
Guest:All right.
Marc:You got the pug still?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, God, yes.
Marc:Great to talk to you.
Marc:Thank you so much for having me.
Marc:Love seeing you.
Guest:Thank you.
Thank you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That was a journey.
Marc:Again, Maria's memoir, Sure I'll Join Your Cult, comes out September 5th.
Marc:You can pre-order it now.
Marc:And would you hang out for a minute?
Marc:Fucking Murphy's Law.
Marc:Fucking.
Marc:Hey folks, for all those other WTF episodes with Maria, you can get her appearance on episode 809 for free on whatever app you're using right now.
Marc:That's an episode where Maria came back to talk about her 2017 Netflix special.
Marc:For the older episodes, you'll need a WTF Plus subscription.
Marc:She's on episode 24, 148,
Marc:And 412, those are all live episodes.
Marc:And then there's episode 72, one of the best episodes from the early years of WTF, which we recorded in my car.
Marc:It was groundbreaking.
Guest:I think I kept thinking, oh, well, I'm going to fix it, which is a totally like I'm going to I'm going to either do the right thing so the person won't have get enraged anymore, which was terrible.
Marc:He was a rager?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, where I couldn't do the right thing.
Guest:I couldn't figure out all the things that I needed to do so it wouldn't happen again.
Guest:But it would always keep happening.
Guest:And then it was like, well, you know what?
Guest:Uh...
Guest:And I learned to do, I got better with it where I wouldn't react as much to it.
Guest:And I would just kind of be like, Oh, this person is, you tried to detach.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Detach with love, you know, going like a, you know, just repeating back what they said and saying, I hear this is what you're saying.
Guest:And, and, but then it is so upsetting over time that it's like, ah,
Guest:you know, I got to let him go because I'm feeling so bad.
Guest:But also to say that that person is wonderful, like has incredibly wonderful qualities, but I felt like I wasn't helping anymore.
Marc:Like I was starting to... And also you felt probably, it's emotional abuse.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you start to lose touch with yourself.
Guest:Lose touch with yourself and...
Guest:And also I felt like my own possibility of me getting abused, you know, me going, you know, and it's like, oh God, you know, like I, yeah.
Guest:So I, and I think some element of it was like that whole idea of I'm going to help somebody.
Marc:Well, that's my problem.
Marc:I was the guy that would walk into an uncontrollable rage and, you know, not stop until my ex-wife was crying.
Marc:And then I'd feel bad.
Marc:And then I'd apologize.
Marc:But it doesn't go away after a certain point in time.
Guest:It doesn't go away.
Guest:And I, for what, I mean, I've read a bunch of books on it now.
Marc:Oh, maybe you can help me.
Marc:To hear that episode and every episode of WTF ad free, get a WTF plus subscription right now by clicking on the link in the episode description or by going to WTF pod.com and clicking on WTF plus.
Marc:Here we go.
Marc:Some guitar.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:Meditative.
Marc:I think.
Yeah.
.
.
.
Yeah.
Marc:boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere