Episode 1461 - Jessica Chastain
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:WTF?
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Today is a big day.
Marc:Jessica Chastain is on the show.
Marc:I talked to Jessica Chastain.
Marc:We did it before the strike.
Marc:You know who she is?
Marc:She's an Oscar winner for The Eyes of Tammy Faye.
Marc:She's also been in movies like The Help, Zero Dark Thirty, Interstellar, and The Martian.
Marc:She was just on Broadway performing in A Doll's House.
Marc:And she's Emmy-nominated for her recent performance as Tammy Wynette in the George and Tammy miniseries.
Marc:She's amazing.
Marc:a great actress, a fucking movie star sitting right in the room with me.
Marc:You know, sometimes I get a little overwhelmed by,
Marc:Because when certain actors or actors or people that I think are great or seemingly bigger than life or something, when they show up as humans, I still have a hard time accepting it.
Marc:It was really the entire conversation with Jessica Chastain was...
Marc:It was electric to me because I just couldn't believe she was sitting there and talking to me.
Marc:But she's just a person.
Marc:She just happens to be a movie star, as far as I can tell, and a great actress.
Marc:So that's going to happen for all you people.
Marc:That is coming down the pike here shortly.
Marc:I'll be doing five shows at Helium in St.
Marc:Louis, September 14th through 16th.
Marc:Buy some tickets.
Marc:I did all right there last time, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to go this time.
Marc:It's weird because it's hard for me to tell.
Marc:Like Salt Lake City sold out four shows.
Marc:I'll be at the Las Vegas Wise Guys on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.
Marc:And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows.
Marc:Those shows are selling out already.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets.
Marc:And, oh, there's one other thing.
Marc:I'm not entirely sure.
Marc:How it works, but I'm presenting Dog Day Afternoon at the American Cinematech at the Arrow Theater on August 26th.
Marc:I think you can get tickets.
Marc:I don't know how exactly.
Marc:You can go to AmericanCinematech.com and find it.
Marc:I don't know if that's a member thing or you can just buy a ticket.
Marc:I think you probably just buy a ticket, but Dog Day Afternoon in a nice 35-millimeter print.
Marc:As you know, I had quite the experience watching that recently, and now I'm excited about watching it again.
Marc:I've been doing that lately, man.
Marc:I've been watching movies again, like right after I watch them the first time.
Marc:And I don't know what this is all a testament to.
Marc:I've been reading books.
Marc:Well, I'm talking to a lot of people who've written books, but I don't know.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:Something in me is engaging and in a good way.
Marc:Like last week on my sober birthday, I don't think I told you this, but
Marc:I watched a movie that is sort of like it's it's right up there with Michael Clayton for me, a movie that no one ever talks about, though.
Marc:Now people talk about Michael Clayton a lot.
Marc:And I'd like to think that I kind of started that.
Marc:You know, I feel like if you go back and you check the timing on things that I was really the one that brought the new attention to Peter Green.
Marc:Original guitar player for Fleetwood Mac.
Marc:And I believe, personally, maybe I'm being... Sorry, I got it cold.
Marc:Self-centered, but...
Marc:Or maybe I'm just being grandiose, but I think I got the Michael Clayton conversation going a few years back.
Marc:I think I was kind of responsible for the new momentum of Michael Clayton.
Marc:And I'm not going to try to do that with this movie, but Changing Lanes, which I believe came out in 2002 with Ben Affleck and Samuel L. Jackson, is a great recovery movie.
Marc:Like on my sober birthday, I'm like, what am I going to watch?
Marc:And I thought about it.
Marc:I have seen Lost Weekend fairly recently.
Marc:The Days of Wine and Roses, I saw fairly recently.
Marc:I've seen that many times.
Marc:I didn't want to watch the Bill W. story.
Marc:I didn't want to watch Clean and Sober with Michael Keaton, although the opening sequence of that is pretty gnarly when he wakes up next to a dead person.
Marc:But I decided on Changing Lanes.
Marc:And this is a movie I've watched very often.
Marc:And I believe it's I think it is some of the best acting both Affleck and Jackson have done in their entire careers.
Marc:And there are some scenes in that that are just masterclasses.
Marc:And I don't like using that word.
Marc:I don't like using the word storytelling or the word authentic.
Marc:And, you know, trauma is starting to wear me out a little bit.
Marc:But but I'll say masterclass.
Marc:Only because of the way that... And Sidney Pollack's in it.
Marc:Sidney Pollack is always...
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:And that's a sort of you go right from Michael Clayton to Changing Lanes.
Marc:I don't know why it wasn't a bigger movie, but here's the deal.
Marc:Brendan, I'm going to make Brendan watch it.
Marc:We're going to talk about it for some bonus material.
Marc:We're going to do a session on Changing Lanes.
Marc:It's quite a movie.
Marc:And I'll leave it at that because I got to talk to Brendan about it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But watch it if you want to be up to speed when we do that bit of business.
Marc:Before I forget, you know, we should keep our minds and charity and concern with the people in Maui if they need help.
Marc:And you feel like helping if you're one of those people that is an impulse to wonder where to give money.
Marc:We put a link in the episode description to Charity Navigator.
Marc:They did a roundup of various organizations responding to the Maui recovery effort, everything from food banks to animal shelters to disaster aid.
Marc:And you can select the one that's right for you.
Marc:Just go to the episode description in whatever app you're using and click on the link for Hawaii Wildfire Relief.
Marc:That seemed pretty fucking devastating and pretty fucking scary in terms of how fire works, how quick it spreads, where it's going to pop up.
Marc:You know, I know it's a concern for us in California all the time.
Marc:And my heart goes out to those people down there.
Marc:in Maui.
Marc:Salt Lake City, man, I tell ya, out of all the cities in the United States that I wouldn't have assumed would be a big city for me in terms of my comedy, it is really one of the biggest cities for me in my comedy.
Marc:Like, people come out to see me there
Marc:And they're nice people.
Marc:They're just good audiences.
Marc:And I have a sort of love for that city.
Marc:I've talked about this before.
Marc:Every time I go there, I have this experience.
Marc:Whether people are Mormon or they're not Mormon, the people that I have experienced in Salt Lake City are always very nice and very open to the work I do.
Marc:And Wise Guys is a great club.
Marc:But this was a little creepy.
Marc:And I'll share it with you.
Marc:So after one of the shows, it must have been Friday night, second show.
Marc:And I don't know if I handle these things right.
Marc:This is only in retrospect that I'm able to share this like this in a way.
Marc:So after the show, I'm walking out the front door to walk back to my hotel in this sort of dry heat area.
Marc:of Salt Lake City, and there are two guys out front who I saw leaving the club.
Marc:They were talking to two women.
Marc:They must have been in their 20s.
Marc:They looked pretty lit up, not drunk, not necessarily, you know, high, but just amped.
Marc:And they had that kind of like, one of them looked like just a pretty classic desert rat hipster dude.
Marc:And I don't know if it's hipster.
Marc:I don't know if desert rat necessarily is hipster, but he looked a little scruffy, looked a little lanky.
Marc:You know, had a hat, had a little kind of a beard mustaching going, had, you know, a pretty intense energy, you know, kind of vibrating and that look in his eye, like, you know, going to fuck things up look.
Marc:And then he was hanging out with a guy that is around the same age, didn't look as hard.
Marc:Looked like he was the second banana.
Marc:The kind of like, hey, man, I don't know if we should do it.
Marc:And then the other guy's like, fuck yeah, we're going to do it.
Marc:He's like, all right, dude, let's fucking do it.
Marc:He was the second guy.
Marc:But they were there talking to these women.
Marc:And as I'm walking out, they did not look like people...
Marc:who would come to my show on purpose.
Marc:You know, this is my projecting, though.
Marc:Like, after the second show on Saturday night, there was definitely a bridal bachelorette party there who I'm sure did no research.
Marc:I just don't see that if you looked me up and you were like, where are we going to go for Cynthia's party for bachelorette?
Marc:You wouldn't look me up and say, like, this guy's going to be great for that.
Marc:But...
Marc:I didn't talk to them.
Marc:I just knew that like they were probably they seemed to be having a good time, but it had nothing to do with me.
Marc:It was after the show.
Marc:So anyway, I'm walking out.
Marc:I see these guys and I'm walking by them and they they kind of I can feel their energy on me.
Marc:And one of them goes, so what are you doing now, man?
Marc:What are you doing now?
Marc:Now, this is after I do a show that was, you know, yeah, there was plenty of anti-antisemitism material in it.
Marc:Plenty of declaration, self-declaration of Jewishness in it.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So this guy goes, what are you doing now?
Marc:And then the other one's like, yeah, man, what are you doing?
Marc:And I'm like, well, I'm just going to go back to the hotel, you know?
Marc:And I go, yeah?
Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, why?
Marc:What's up?
Marc:He's like, and the little bearded ratty you're looking one goes, you sure you don't want to do any hate crimes?
Marc:You want to go do some hate crimes?
Marc:And, you know, it's a weird question.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Even comedically, it's a weird question.
Marc:But I took it as such.
Marc:And I said, sure, man, you got any spray paint?
Marc:Let's go find a synagogue.
Marc:And I thought I'd just add to the joke that I had started.
Marc:But then as I was walking away with the weird, uncomfortable laugh after that exchange...
Marc:I thought like, wouldn't that be how it would start?
Marc:Wouldn't that be like, you know, obviously I'm an old man and I don't need to hang out with these like, you know, 20 somethings who are all lit up for one reason or another with their, with their, uh, I don't even think they were their girlfriends, but wouldn't that, whatever that tone was, that kind of cryptic sort of like, is he joking or is he not joking?
Marc:Which is a fairly popular tone now, you know, that like, yeah, yeah, it's a joke, man.
Marc:It's a joke.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Or no?
Marc:Is it a joke?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Trumpy does that a lot.
Marc:It's kind of a shifty, two-sided thing.
Marc:You know, like, how's it going to land?
Marc:Depends on who you are.
Marc:And then I'll decide whether it was a joke or not.
Marc:But what if I said, yeah, let's hang out.
Marc:What are you guys doing?
Marc:Would I have become the hate crime?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But obviously I'm not going to hang out with them.
Marc:But I just wondered, wouldn't that tone be roughly the same?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe I'm projecting.
Marc:Maybe I'm being weird.
Marc:But it happened.
Marc:So listen, this is exciting.
Marc:This is exciting.
Marc:And again, thank you, Salt Lake City.
Marc:This is exciting.
Marc:Jessica Chastain is here.
Marc:She's nominated for an Emmy in the category of Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series or Movie for her performance in George and Tammy.
Marc:This episode was recorded on June 14th before the SAG-AFTRA strike.
Marc:And it was lovely, exciting for me to talk to Jessica Chastain.
Marc:Nice to see you.
Guest:What happened to your hand?
Guest:Cooking?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Sometimes I think I still have restaurant hands because I worked in a restaurant at some point in my life.
Guest:Cooking in a restaurant?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Just like a short order.
Marc:No, I'm not a real cook.
Marc:It was years ago.
Marc:It was probably the last job I had, 19...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I was probably just out of college.
Marc:But, yes.
Marc:But, you know, when you cook in a kitchen, you just think you cook.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Covered in.
Marc:But I did it twice.
Marc:I stuck it into a toaster.
Guest:You stuck it?
Guest:So stupid.
Marc:Ooh.
Marc:Because I was dealing with, you know, some sort of badly melting vegan cheese.
Yeah.
Marc:That's the problem.
Guest:That's the hardest part about the cheese.
Guest:How long have you been a vegan?
Guest:For almost 20 years.
Marc:So that's crazy.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I was like, I was vegan before they even really had store-bought vegan cheese.
Marc:It was an ethical thing?
Guest:When did it start?
Guest:It started, I think, because I didn't have a lot of energy.
Guest:I wasn't feeling well.
Guest:And then a friend of mine who was a famous actress... You can mention her name.
Guest:Okay, Michelle Williams.
Guest:We did a play together, and she had this...
Guest:a two-week food delivery program that they gave her at some award show, and then she was gonna use it, so she gave it to me, and it was vegan food.
Marc:And that was it?
Guest:Yeah, and that was it.
Marc:Wait, so you felt better?
Marc:Like the energy thing resolved itself?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, not only was it vegan, it was like raw vegan, which that was rough.
Guest:That was crazy.
Guest:And I did like a week, and the first week I was just so pissed off all the time, and I just felt like, what is this?
Guest:And then the second week, it felt like I was high.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I was like, all of a sudden, I was like, yeah, man.
Guest:I just felt so happy and calm and cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then, so yeah, then I finished the two weeks.
Marc:Did that high last till now?
Guest:Well, I'm not raw vegan anymore.
Marc:Oh, you think it was the raw thing?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I mean, when I finished, though, I went and had fish and risotto, and immediately I just felt tired and sick again.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I was like, gosh darn it, I'm vegan.
Marc:Do you have a vegan sort of chemistry brain?
Marc:Do you know how everything goes together?
Guest:I'm not someone who thinks like I need a ton of protein because there's protein in everything.
Guest:Cauliflower.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm not, I'm never like, and also I'm not really, I mean, I'm muscly, but I'm not like bulking up.
Guest:I'm not like I need to be on a high protein diet.
Marc:You never, you never had to bulk up for a roll?
Guest:Well, I actually, actually that's, that's not, I did bulk up for a roll and the nutritionist told me to eat a ton of quinoa.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So that was for the vegan approach.
Yeah.
Marc:Good one.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Because I was watching it.
Marc:Like, it's funny, though.
Marc:Like, I look, I mean, I loved the George and Tammy.
Marc:I've watched it.
Marc:I watched it all in a day, which is probably not recommended.
Guest:That would be depressing.
Marc:Yeah, it was a lot.
Marc:I did not feel great.
Marc:But no, no, no.
Marc:I'm big fans of both of them.
Marc:So to fill in all those gaps around the sort of mythology of those two was great.
Marc:But to get back to bulking up, there were moments, and I've had it a couple other times where, you know, Michael, who I've talked to before, where he's wearing certain shirts where I'm like, wow, George looks pretty fit.
Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He goes back and forth from like older white-haired George with a little belly to like, oh, wow, look at him.
Marc:Like, yeah, muscles.
Marc:I'm like, wow.
Marc:But that's just, you know, we all stay in shape and you get a role.
Marc:You're not like, I don't know if you're going to.
Marc:But you must have lost weight for that, right?
Guest:I lost weight for the last episode because they had to do the side.
Guest:You know, we did the flashback to the first episode.
Guest:And I mean, once she had the port, she couldn't really eat anymore.
Guest:She lost a ton of weight.
Guest:So that's when I fasted.
Marc:I didn't really realize that she was that young when she died.
Marc:I didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, she looked like she was in her 70s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that old monster lived till he was 80.
Marc:Oh, what a monster.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, the story is about what happened after her death.
Guest:It's just, you know, we have because it's quite fascinating.
Guest:fascinating so of course it makes sense that you would someone would be like well let's add this but you're like I don't want to give that any life of its own like what well just the idea that her kids had no idea after she died and you know about what that she died what yeah they found out from the news and then she was there was like a party at the house with yeah and she was lying there on the couch
Guest:Really?
Guest:Hours later.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That everyone was like viewing her and her kids showed up.
Guest:I mean, it was pretty, you know, it's pretty gnarly.
Guest:I mean, you can read it.
Guest:It's all in books and people have talked about it.
Marc:Well, I mean, it was sort of, it's interesting to me because I watch acting more closely lately because I do some of it.
Marc:Hmm.
Marc:Which, by the way, you're really good at it.
Marc:Well, that's very nice of you to say.
Marc:I do what I can.
Marc:I give it my all.
Marc:But I could probably use a little—I always sort of casually get lessons from you, for instance.
Guest:Yeah, but Andrea's pretty great, too.
Guest:You probably were like, whoa.
Guest:The two of you guys together were amazing.
Marc:yeah but i didn't really know her and i knew some of her work and you know when we first met i'm like all right but all you can do is show up and do it yeah do you know what i mean if you leave yourself open to what's in front of you i find that if i get out of my own way yeah it tends to be better right and and i i did you know i did things you know i i did the the accent yes you did
Marc:Yes, you did.
Marc:I figured it.
Marc:I figured it.
Marc:But it was good because I'm naturally somewhat codependent and I knew it was kind of her movie.
Marc:So I was sort of like I felt like I was there in service of her either way in character, out of character and out.
Guest:That's so fascinating.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:But you really ground the movie, though, in a really nice way.
Guest:You guys, it does.
Guest:I know you say you're in service, but it feels like a partnership.
Marc:Oh, yeah, definitely.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I definitely felt bad for her as a character.
Marc:But also, like, she's, like, very intense.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Marc:So it's just sort of like, I guess you've had it where you work with people.
Marc:You're like, I'm not going to talk to her right now.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, Mike Shannon could be like that a bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where it's just like, oh, he is in it right now.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Let's keep.
Guest:I'm just going to keep the energy of this scene and let's go.
Marc:What I thought, like, in retrospect, the thing I keep thinking about in that movie, because I try to kind of focus on these scenes where something really changes.
Marc:And obviously those characters get old.
Marc:But when you guys are making out when you're old.
Yeah.
Marc:It was really kind of the most vulnerable of all of it.
Guest:That was my favorite love scene, actually.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fully clothed.
Guest:Like, there's nothing that felt like salacious.
Guest:It just felt loving.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And given the past love scenes with those two.
Guest:Right.
Marc:One way or the other.
Marc:And also, it was, you know, totally clothed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was nothing to really lose anymore.
Marc:And you didn't really seem to give a shit whether you were going to get caught.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But you both sort of acted the old movements.
Marc:Like, you know, when you have the precedence for how they used to do it, and then you're kind of like, you know.
Guest:I mean, it would be slightly awkward if you're playing someone throughout the years and then...
Guest:You know, Mike's got this white wig on and now all of a sudden there's nothing changed about the way he's kissing or like holding.
Marc:But I think that is like I think that's probably the hardest thing to do.
Marc:You know, once you get the character in place to to age out like that and then to behave properly in that type of intimacy as that older version.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I just kept thinking, oh, gosh, she was in so much pain at that point in her life.
Guest:I just kept thinking about that, like, where's the pain in the body?
Guest:And, you know, when I don't feel good, I don't want to move very much, you know, in that sense.
Guest:And that kind of like, I didn't think like, oh, okay, I need to act older.
Guest:I just kind of thought of like, okay, where's my pain in my body?
Guest:What does it feel like?
Guest:Okay, but I love him.
Guest:And how do I express love when this also exists in my body?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then the love for him is also a sickness.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:There's a lot of addiction in this show.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I mean, you know, I'm a sober guy.
Marc:So, like, you know, all of it is like this is relentless.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:But everybody sort of changes.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like, what did you like?
Marc:This is a second time in a fairly short window that you've played like real people.
Marc:And they're both kind of country people.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, actually, I play a lot of real people, like Molly Bloom.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Even in The Good Nurse.
Guest:I play a nurse who tracked down a serial killer or helped get a killer to confess and stop him.
Marc:But you spent time with Bloom, right?
Guest:Yeah, I spent time with Bloom.
Guest:I spent time on The Good Nurse.
Guest:Yeah, with George and Tammy, obviously, I couldn't spend time with Tammy Wynette.
Guest:But I spent time with her daughter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Spent time with Peanut Montgomery and Charlene.
Marc:So you do these real people.
Marc:But, like, when you're doing, like, just as, okay, so let's just stick with Tammy.
Marc:So, like, where does it start, the process of, what do you, like, do you start with, like, emotional thing of her?
Guest:Her started, because my process was really long with this one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Josh Brolin actually approached me in 2011 at the Golden Globes.
Guest:It was the first time I was ever there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just had movies come out.
Guest:2011.
Guest:Yeah, and it's like all of a sudden, he's this huge movie star, and he's coming up to me, talking to me like he knows me, which also is like, what is happening in my life?
Marc:He's very good at disarming you.
Guest:Yes, he is.
Marc:I never remember before in my life, when he came over here, he got out of the car, and I'm like, oh, I know this guy.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:He's just like a normal kind of dude, you know?
Guest:Charming motherfucker.
Guest:Very charming.
Guest:And he just came up to me and said, have you ever thought about playing Tammy Wynette?
Guest:And I was like, no, but sure, let's do it.
Marc:So it was his, did he have the project?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's a producer on our project.
Guest:And so it was like for over a decade, I was thinking about playing her and it kind of went, I had to, the first place I started was kind of getting rid of any preconceived idea I had about her because, you know,
Guest:There was this whole movement of, you know, feminists saying that Stand By Your Man is a song that's really bad for women.
Guest:Hillary Clinton came out and said, I'm no, you know, Tammy Burnett standing by my man.
Guest:And Tammy was like, why am I being brought into this?
Marc:She was alive for that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they ended up making up, her and Hillary.
Guest:And I believe Tammy performed at one of Hillary's events.
Marc:Was that much tension that it required a making up with?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I don't know if it was on 60 Minutes, but it was a big, big deal when Hillary Clinton said that.
Marc:She used it as a reference.
Guest:Yeah, to the Monica Lewinsky situation.
Marc:And she ended up standing by her man.
Guest:Well, Tammy Wynette was married five times.
Guest:So I think for all these women to say, oh, this song is so bad for women.
Guest:It's also, it's like how you're interpreting the song.
Guest:And our series kind of goes into it.
Guest:I mean, Stand By Your Man in our series isn't about standing by someone, standing with someone.
Guest:You know, through difficulty, you know, when it's bad for you, although towards the end, Tammy really is in a bad situation in her life.
Marc:So, OK, so getting back to the original question.
Marc:So what did you focus in on when you dealt with the character of her?
Marc:Like, what's the first part of the work?
Guest:That's the first.
Guest:I had to get, you know, my own misconceptions of who she was.
Marc:Did you grow up with her music at all?
Guest:Well, I knew Stand By Her Man.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know, that's pretty... But you don't come from a country music people.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I mean, Patsy was always in the house.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Patsy Cline, yeah.
Guest:Because of your mom?
Guest:Who had the Patsy?
Guest:Yeah, I think it was my mom, my grandma, maybe, who played a lot of Patsy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, I'm trying to think, was it Kitty Wells?
Guest:I mean, I'm obsessed with Kitty Wells and, uh, I'm trying to remember if I, yeah, I don't remember who introduced me to Kitty, but so I had like, I definitely had a foot in it.
Guest:Um, which is probably why I was so interested in, of course, Hank Williams, like everyone, you know, but, um, and I love those harmonies.
Guest:I love like a folk singer songwriter music that feels like it, not that it costs something, but feels deep.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah, I definitely, sometimes it resonates.
Marc:It's not that common.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it's kind of, but like Kitty Wells, and the other thing about these country artists is they record new stuff until they're 100 years old.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:They just keep doing it.
Guest:And also it's that, because they weren't used to really performing with sound systems, right?
Guest:So they have that voice that just cuts into you.
Marc:Was that true?
Marc:Was that a real thing when he recorded He Stopped Loving Today?
Guest:No, that was the magic of writing.
Guest:But the reality, I mean, it was true.
Guest:And there's a whole book that we read that it's amazing.
Guest:I forgot what it's called.
Guest:But the whole book is about the recording of that song.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it's an amazing read.
Guest:And about how long it took and how difficult it was and how...
Guest:Billy, in some sense, really kind of manipulated a situation and really, you know, it was like 600 takes.
Guest:Like over and over again, he would piece together line by line to get this song done.
Marc:I thought it was a pretty honest rendition of, you know, how record business works with those guys.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Without fully demonizing them.
Guest:Oh, completely.
Marc:It's rare that you are able to empathize a bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:you know, with the executives and studio people that are taking advantage of the artist, kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because there is a relationship there, but you always feel like the record execs the monster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, like, even in—there's a line in our series where Belly says to Tammy, if I tell you to sing Three Blind Mice, you tell me what key—your only response is what key.
Guest:And actually, that's something Tammy said.
Guest:Yeah, because it also gets to a point of like, for her, Billy Sherrill was, he saved her.
Guest:I mean, we're talking about someone who really, in her mind, so she was like, there's nothing wrong that that man can do.
Guest:And so there really was a sense that these, all these people were around her and George Jones,
Guest:and they could see what they were going through and they would write music that mirrored what their friends were experiencing and then they would have their friends slash the artists sing them and they would be these huge hits right but then every time you're performing they're performing it it's just like opening up wounds over and over again but i mean i love that kind of art sure that's why i think you listen to he stopped loving her today or you you know you listen to some of these songs and it's
Marc:You can't not cry when you listen to that song.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I love that song.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I heard a story about George Jones about how he used to close with that song.
Marc:And there was a period there where this is some guy told me, his dad told me this, that depending on how drunk he was,
Marc:like when he played that song, that determined the length of the show.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:So then that song came on, you were like, okay, this, yeah.
Guest:Well, she had a little thing, and we kind of alluded to it with Stand By Your Man.
Guest:She had, especially towards the end, she had hand signals behind her that would let the band know if she, but we used it for something else, but in real life, it would let them know if she was going to hit the notes in Stand By Your Man.
Guest:And if she wasn't, the backup singers would have to do it, and she would go underneath
Marc:Because of her strength or she didn't?
Guest:Yeah, because she was, and also, I mean, YouTube's an amazing tool when you're preparing for something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I look at original, like when she first started singing Stand By Your Man, it felt so kind of like, wow, like again, cut through you.
Guest:And then you see her all of a sudden as it evolved, it's almost became like a performance act where she'd go into the audience and she'd sit on laps and she'd give kisses.
Guest:And it wasn't really telling a story anymore.
Guest:It was like connecting to the audience.
Guest:So it didn't really, in some sense, it didn't mean anything.
Guest:at a certain point to her but it gave the fans what they wanted exactly and she was sort of hyper aware and she knew she knew what that was but okay so you were just on stage like a couple weeks ago I mean no Saturday night was my closing night Saturday night was the closing night Sunday night was the Tonys Monday morning at 7.30 I was flying to LA because my best friends who had worked on this film for like four years they had their premiere what day is today
Marc:It's Wednesday.
Guest:So that was two days ago.
Guest:So I went to their premiere to support them.
Marc:What was that?
Guest:The Flash.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:You saw that?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:How was it?
Guest:Good.
Guest:Really, really good.
Guest:I mean, I was in Barbara Muschietti and Andy Muschietti.
Guest:I was in their very first film they ever did.
Guest:And I was in It 2.
Guest:So I'm in two of four of their films.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:And, yeah, they're like, I mean, yeah, they're family.
Marc:I just saw that kid Ezra Miller play a young Dali.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:in this new Dali Land movie with Ben Kingsley.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Sir Ben.
Marc:Sir Ben.
Marc:Tomorrow I'm talking to Sir Ben.
Guest:You are?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Here, I'll tell you a story about Sir Ben.
Guest:I was heading to go do Zero Dark Thirty, and I saw him, I think it was at the airport, and I said I was going to Chandigarh, India, and he says, okay, let me, and he gave me a list of things to do.
Guest:He said, when you go to India, take your toothbrush and
Guest:And put it in the water and brush your teeth with it.
Guest:And then he said, drink whiskey every day.
Guest:Like all of these things to not get sick.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I did not get sick in India.
Marc:Were you?
Marc:And you did it?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did everything he told me to do.
Guest:And I was one of the only people who did not get sick.
Marc:Why did you go to India?
Guest:Zero Dark Thirty.
Marc:Oh, you shot that there?
Guest:Yeah, in Chandigarh, India.
Marc:Oh, for Pakistan?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Because it was, I think, a three-hour drive from the border.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you didn't get sick.
Guest:I did not get sick.
Marc:Everyone else got sick.
Guest:Yeah, Sir Ben, man.
Marc:Wow.
Wow.
Marc:So you did, what was it?
Marc:Not the cherry orchard?
Marc:What'd you just do?
Guest:A doll's house.
Marc:A doll's house.
Guest:Yeah, but I did also the cherry orchard like 15 years ago.
Marc:Because I'm not a huge theater guy, but like, so Ipsen, like, is there a specific way to do that?
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:Well, I mean, like those, like, like, doesn't he write in a certain way that requires, isn't there something uniquely Ipsony about something that requires a certain type of approach?
Guest:Yeah, it was written 150 years ago.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But we, but it's because it was written in another language and, you know, we have, it's adapted by Amy Herzog and she's the first woman to adapt it for Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which I find really interesting because it's one of the most famous feminist pieces of literature.
Guest:I mean, the fact that 150 years ago, Ibsen wrote about a woman leaving her husband.
Guest:And the door slam at the end, they say, like, it was the door slam echoed around the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, it's been fascinating to have her kind of look at it.
Guest:And our version was like, it's a doll's house, but she modernized the language a bit.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So that's interesting that I guess you can round out the characters in a certain way if with a translation.
Yeah.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:What I loved what she did is, usually when I've seen A Doll's House, it's like the character of Nora is this beautiful victim and is put upon all these men in her life.
Guest:And Torvald is this brute, her husband.
Guest:And in Amy's version, Nora participates in holding up the system that oppresses her.
Guest:So she helps create Torvald by telling him he's great at everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, and she does this little bird baby voice for him, you know, because he likes it, you know, to make him feel more like the man.
Guest:Like, she's participating.
Guest:She kind of changes who she was for each person around her to try to make them like her.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, she's just like, this is bullshit.
Guest:I'm not doing this anymore.
Guest:I don't know who I am, but I got to go figure it out.
Guest:And Torvald in Amy's version also, he's not just this brute.
Guest:He's this deeply insecure man who feels like he's doing his best to try to be, you know, the leader in some quote unquote leader of this house, the man of the house.
Guest:And in reality would be much happier if there was equality between the two and he didn't have to carry everything on his shoulders.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:So it's like it's thematic, these insecure men.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Honestly, I think sometimes it's like the the dogs usually that bite you are the ones that are scared.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that makes sense.
Marc:So.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you grew up in California, right?
Guest:Yeah, Northern California.
Marc:Where?
Guest:Sacramento, Auburn, all around.
Marc:Arden Fair Mall.
Guest:Oh, my gosh, yes.
Guest:Do they still have malls?
Guest:I mean, actually, when I did the Eyes of Tammy Faye, that's what I would do every weekend is I'd go to the mall and walk around.
Guest:Yeah, because that's what she did.
Marc:A dead mall somewhere?
Guest:No, actually, where did we shoot that?
Guest:North Carolina, Charlotte.
Guest:That mall was bustling.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, that was actually fun.
Guest:I was like, oh, my gosh, this reminds me of my childhood.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I like them all.
Marc:I used to do comedy in SAC at the at the punchline.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Marc:That was in that street.
Marc:It was in a mall next to a mattress store and they put us up across the street from the Arden Fair Mall.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:So we'd go wander around.
Guest:I think the Arden Fair mall was the fancy mall.
Marc:Was it?
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, there was like, I'm trying to remember, there was three malls growing up, and Arden Fair was the one that had the expensive stores in them.
Marc:Oh, that was it, yeah.
Guest:So you were put up at the expensive mall.
Marc:Oh, good, near that.
Marc:The mattress store was just a mattress store, but the mall, maybe it was fancy.
Marc:Maybe there was a movie theater there, I think, maybe.
Guest:Oh, maybe.
Marc:So like Sacramento.
Guest:Sacramento.
Guest:Do you go there?
Guest:Not much more.
Guest:I mean, I don't have family there anymore, but I worked at Sacramento Theater Company.
Guest:I did Christmas Carol there for a few years.
Guest:I went to see the Joseph and the Amazing Color Dreamcoat when I was like seven.
Guest:My grandma took me there.
Guest:Seven.
Guest:At Music Circus.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was that the life?
Guest:What was it?
Guest:B Street Theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was that the life-changing moment?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's when I was like, oh, this is what I am.
Guest:It was not sense of like, oh, I want to do that when I get older.
Guest:I was like, this is what I am.
Guest:And then I just started to harass my mom, begging her to take me to L.A.
Guest:to audition for commercials.
Marc:Did she?
Guest:No, she never did.
Marc:What did your mom do?
Guest:Gosh, she did a lot of things.
Guest:She was a real estate agent.
Guest:She was a bartender.
Marc:Real estate agent.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The ladies do that sometimes.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Marc:My mother did it for a while, but she was too nice.
Marc:She couldn't move anyplace.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She was like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't buy this place.
Guest:It's not right for you.
Marc:Just not confident enough.
Marc:And she bartended too?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what about your dad?
Guest:Uh, I didn't grow, I didn't grow up with my dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there was a lot, I was raised by single moms.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:I have a stepdad who's a fireman.
Guest:Um, great.
Guest:He's amazing.
Guest:Um, I ended up, I, I asked him when I was, he helped me move to college and, and I asked him, I was like, Hey, can I call you dad from now?
Guest:And he's like, yes, you can.
Marc:It was like a scene from a movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How long have you been in your life at that point?
Guest:I think we met the summer of my eighth grade year.
Guest:You didn't call him dad?
Marc:What did you call him by his name?
Marc:Mike.
Marc:Mike?
Guest:Yeah, because he was my stepdad.
Marc:But you didn't know how long he'd be around either, I guess.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I had a lot of stepdads.
Marc:You did?
Guest:So I was like, hey, but once I got to the point of like, yeah, I really like you.
Guest:Hey, can I call you dad?
Marc:When you're going to college.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Of course he cried.
Marc:Why wouldn't you?
Marc:He'd hung in there.
Marc:He'd earned it.
Guest:He did.
Guest:I love him.
Marc:He's still around.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:In fact, we're all going on vacation together.
Marc:They're still together?
Marc:So I guess you could relate, like, on some level, your mom and Tammy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:And how's your mom doing?
Yeah.
Guest:Great.
Guest:She's now retired.
Guest:She's a great grandma.
Guest:Not a great grandma.
Guest:She is a great grandma.
Guest:Grandmother.
Marc:Oh, to your kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:We're all actually about to go on a vacation together, so it'll be really fun.
Marc:With your kids and your mom and everybody?
Guest:My kids, my mom, my husband's family, my friends.
Mike?
Marc:Mike, too?
Marc:Your stepdad, Mike?
Guest:Yes, he's coming.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We're all going together.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why I was like, uh, because I don't quite know.
Guest:Where they're at?
Guest:Yeah, it's just a, I stay out of it.
Guest:I'm like, I'm not getting involved.
Guest:And so I don't want to out anything on the show.
Guest:It's just a, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know how to answer it.
Marc:Mind your own business.
Marc:Sometimes when you get to a certain age and the relationship with your parents change and you can actually be sort of surprised, sort of like, what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I don't need to know everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't need to, yeah.
Marc:But like, so single mom situation, so it was kind of lean?
Guest:Very lean.
Guest:Very lean.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was, yeah, there were a lot of times where, yeah, I mean,
Guest:my mom really, really worked hard.
Guest:There were three of us kids, but I remember it being in, I don't know if it was high school or junior high, someone was talking about this play Curse of the Starving Cast.
Marc:Glass, the Sam Shepard play?
Guest:Yeah, the Sam Shepard play.
Guest:And the teacher was talking about how the son in the play would go and look at the refrigerator.
Guest:It was in the stage direction.
Guest:He'd open the refrigerator and look inside and just stare, even though there was nothing in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, that was the first time I realized, I was like, oh my God, that's us.
Guest:Because I did that.
Guest:I would constantly go to the fridge and open the fridge, even though I knew there was nothing in there.
Guest:But it was the first time I was sitting in school when she was talking about that.
Guest:And I was like, that's our situation.
Guest:Oh my gosh, we're different.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you're part of a dark tragedy play.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, we weren't all of the tragedy of that play, but it was the first time I realized like, wow, I mean, she's working really hard to get us fed.
Guest:But, you know, there are other kids that you go to their house and they have like.
Guest:Yeah, snacks.
Guest:Yeah, the fridge is full of food.
Guest:Like, holy Moses.
Marc:Fun snacks.
Marc:So how was the school experience?
Marc:I mean, when did you start acting in high school?
Guest:Well, no, I started as soon as it was an elective.
Guest:Because when you're in elementary school, even though I knew I wanted to do it, I was never...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I wasn't, like, the best student.
Guest:I was a bit probably obnoxious.
Marc:Did you have friends?
Guest:Yeah, I was kind of nerdy.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I had, like, one time, you know, they permed my hair, and I looked like Annie, and then we cut it off, and I had, like, really short hair, red hair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I was just kind of—I mean, I remember—
Guest:It's so, like, I look back, I'm like, oh, like, what a sweet, like, clueless person.
Guest:I remember, like, sitting in the cafeteria and, like, eating orange peels and banana peels because it made people notice me.
Guest:Like, in the school, like, the other kids, they'd be like, oh, my God, look at her.
Guest:Like, I know, it's terrible.
Marc:You just wanted some weird attention?
Guest:I just wanted, like, people to notice me, which is so— For being a weirdo?
Guest:For being a weirdo.
Guest:But at least then I was existing.
Guest:You're something.
Guest:I was something, yeah.
Marc:You're like the weird star.
Marc:You were the one who ate banana peels.
Guest:I know, because then they could, like, go like, wow, she's—what, you know—
Marc:I bet you there's people in the world that don't really remember or don't really associate that with you but remember some girl from junior high that ate banana peels.
Marc:Or was that younger?
Guest:Definitely it was younger than junior high.
Guest:Because junior high is when I started to get attention for it.
Marc:Because I remember there was a guy that picked his nose with a crochet needle.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I thank God I never did that.
Marc:Well, I mean.
Guest:Thank God.
Marc:But it's like one of those things.
Marc:It's weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So eating banana peels would be right up there with someone somewhere said, there used to be this girl.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that was you.
Guest:That was me.
Marc:But what I would do, too, is I. The Oscar winning banana peel eater.
Guest:It probably was terrible.
Guest:I just remember sitting in the cafeteria and everyone's going, oh my God, look what she's doing.
Guest:But yeah, but then in junior high, theater was an elective.
Guest:You could choose like, you know, electives.
Guest:And so I was like, oh, I'll choose the drama class.
Guest:And I got a lot of immediate, there was an immediate sense of, oh, I'm good at this.
Guest:I always felt like I wanted to do it.
Guest:I never had the opportunity in elementary school because you really needed to be the one.
Guest:You don't audition.
Guest:You just have to have good grades.
Guest:And then I think I was like holding up like props, you know.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But in elementary school, you can't.
Marc:What can you really do?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You want to be on stage and be cute and get laughs or whatever.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:You have no control over anything.
Guest:No.
Guest:But usually the kids, like if we're doing the Wizard of Oz or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I wasn't getting Dorothy or any of those parts.
Guest:You know, I was like holding up, you know, the castle.
Marc:Why weren't you getting Dorothy?
Marc:Because you're...
Guest:Because I wasn't—those parts would always go to the kids who were well-behaved and who got good grades.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But then when it became an elective and it was like, okay, now we're working on monologues and we're doing scene work, there was an immediate sense of like, oh, I don't have to eat banana peels.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like this.
Guest:Now all of a sudden I'm like with my friend.
Guest:These are there.
Guest:Everyone in this room is as weird as I am.
Guest:And we don't have like it does.
Marc:We don't have to be weird on purpose.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:We could just like, you know, create art and like do stuff together.
Guest:And I won like some competition.
Guest:In junior high?
Guest:Yeah, and I still have a sweet trophy.
Guest:I wasn't even expecting it.
Guest:There was like, we had to do these monologues and the teacher said, there's this competition.
Guest:And I think because we were the state capital, everyone came to Sacramento for it.
Guest:It was off campus.
Guest:And I remember being there.
Guest:I did the monologue and I'm like, I think it was called, please God, I'm only 17.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was about a girl who was driving the car and she was driving unsafe and then she died.
Guest:And she's like begging God to let her live again.
Guest:And I was like crying.
Guest:I was like doing this whole thing.
Guest:And then when they called the winners, I won the trophy for like the best.
Marc:So you were able to cry?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I was always able to kind of like just... Because I was wondering about that one before I talked to you.
Marc:Like there seems to be...
Marc:Like, even with these characters, obviously it's part of acting, but it feels like that you're able to maybe experience a vulnerability in these characters that you didn't or weren't able to as just a person.
Guest:I wonder if it's—and I've met—I think Mike Shannon might be like this a little bit.
Guest:I think there's a sensitivity.
Guest:It's like an ultra-sensitivity because also—
Guest:He's more vocal about this in terms of when he's in an area where there's a lot of people talking or touching at him.
Guest:He starts to kind of panic a bit.
Guest:But I have difficulty sometimes being in even a concert where there's a lot of energy or sound.
Guest:I just feel kind of like I don't have the protective layer of it.
Marc:Okay, right, right.
Marc:So there's an open sensitivity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I can then, just like sometimes when little kids are playing, they believe it's real, what's happening.
Guest:I can, sometimes people ask me, especially Doll's House, because it was so emotional.
Guest:It's like an hour every show I was crying and like doing this whole thing.
Guest:And they would say, you know, how do you do that?
Guest:What do you think about?
Guest:And I'm always like, I think about what's happening.
Guest:And I just think about it and then I feel like it's happening to me.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I don't have to go, oh, let me go into my sense memory or let me use my substitutions.
Marc:You can get present with the situation.
Guest:It's like a little kid.
Guest:There's an amazing audition for E.T.
Guest:where it's the lead actor.
Guest:I forgot his name.
Guest:Elliot.
Guest:The kid auditioning for Elliot.
Guest:And you hear Steven Spielberg's voice in the back.
Guest:He's not on camera, but you hear him at the audition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they say, okay, we're going to do some improv with you.
Guest:And he's this little kid.
Guest:And they say, okay.
Guest:And the guy starts saying, we're going to take your alien away.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, this kid starts saying, no, he's mine.
Guest:You can't take him.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:And he starts crying and really just breaks your heart.
Guest:And then you could hear the adults in the room like, what just happened?
Guest:And you hear Steven Spielberg go, you got the part, kid.
Yeah.
Guest:I think that's it.
Guest:It's like I could do an improv or something and then I'll just believe it's happening.
Guest:And then whatever happens in my body, I allow it to happen.
Marc:So that's the thing that you always had.
Guest:Always.
Guest:I think it's just the sensitivity.
Marc:So, right.
Marc:But the ability to be present.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And also not allowing the world to close me up.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:That's, I think, a big, big thing.
Guest:Because I think there's a lot of things that happen in this world where we build walls to try to protect ourselves.
Guest:And I'm quite vulnerable.
Guest:And I can be in situations where...
Guest:I can be talking sometimes or speech or, you know, someone could come over to tell me something and then I could get emotional when I don't want to.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I think it's that you don't allow the world to close you.
Marc:Yeah, but how do you, like, I mean, but that, because I'm just, like, I have a sensitivity to, like, but sometimes, but I would include smell in the list.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, I can walk into a house.
Guest:Here's, I have a, my husband always says this about me.
Guest:I can walk into the house and immediately...
Guest:I'd be like, an animal went to the bathroom in the house.
Guest:I can smell any, I can, and it makes me, he got, my husband bought a compost machine and it almost caused a divorce because every time I walked into the house, I was like, it smells horrendous in this house.
Guest:I can't live here.
Guest:I'm so sensitive to that as well, you know?
Marc:I had to switch treadmills today.
Guest:Because the smell?
Marc:Someone got on the treadmill next to me.
Marc:I just cannot take other people's cleaning products.
Marc:Even if I'm hiking and like someone's hiking down the hill and I'm like, why are you showering before you hike?
Marc:Why do I smell your soap?
Marc:I try not to get resentful.
Marc:I was concerned this morning because I had sort of a patchouli accident.
Marc:I'm like, she's going to think I'm like some sort of weird style hippie person.
No, no.
Guest:I will say, though, the second I sat down at the bike and I see a hammer in front of me and a knife, I'm like, what is going on?
Marc:I just want you to feel safe over there.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Those are your options.
Guest:So if you say something inappropriate, I could just.
Marc:But so that sensitivity, though, I mean, how do you so instinctively, you know, you can engage it when you're acting, but like how you it's hard to make choices not to get crushed by the world.
Marc:I mean, that's something instinctual, isn't it?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I mean, because like you seem to have like, you know, weathered quite a storm as a child.
Marc:So I imagine you were put into positions that you were probably too young to be put in.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So, but I never, maybe because I was always interested in storytelling, I had a way to stay open and let it go through me.
Marc:But you could make, you could choose to open it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But also, I mean, I tell you- Maybe you feel safer on stage.
Guest:I don't know if I feel, maybe.
Guest:I mean, maybe because I feel like I can just be, I don't have to worry about how people are going to judge me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe that's it.
Marc:Or coming in.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like there's boundaries.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:However, like when I, like I went to, for example, I went to Kiev last, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was pretty, it was a pretty intense situation.
Guest:And I was at a children's hospital and-
Guest:I remember even before that, I have friends who are Ukrainian.
Guest:They asked me to go.
Guest:And I was like, yes, I'll do whatever I can.
Guest:But I literally flew and traveled forever with a friend of mine last summer.
Guest:Like with the war going?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It was pretty intense.
Guest:And I knew, and I had a box of teddy bears with me.
Guest:And I went to this hospital, and I remember before I went in, I was like...
Guest:do not cry like you know when you go in and see these kids don't cry don't allow and i really had to i have to like almost like switch something on so i know when it's not that i'm closing myself off to the world but it's like i have to protect other people around me and if i'm too open around these kids yeah i don't want to freak someone out i don't want them to be like why is she making this about her
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:So I do have I am aware of how I move through the world, but I can also get surprised sometimes where I don't have that moment of like, OK, don't you know, don't allow this to affect me too deeply.
Marc:OK, well, but on some level, those decisions that you make, like even around going to that hospital or are that's sort of acting in a way.
Guest:It's acting in, well, yes, if acting for you is, which I think that's what I love about acting, because I think it's for me, it's about the other person.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because if it's about, like, let me be open to you, let me take you in, but then you also have to be careful of...
Guest:I need to take, you know, when I was at the, I need to take care of you.
Guest:So I'm not just going to be here and just be this open heart that's like, then like sobbing because I feel sad for your situation.
Guest:How am I going to, my goal now is to protect you.
Marc:And also their kids.
Guest:Oh my God, I can't, I mean, can you imagine?
Guest:So yeah, there's a sense.
Marc:How'd that go ultimately?
Guest:I mean, it was a beautiful experience.
Guest:And, you know, I mean, it's why the fuck do we do this to each other?
Guest:I don't understand.
Guest:Like the violence and wars and fighting.
Guest:Like all this.
Guest:I have trouble sometimes reading the news when you talk about having the world crush you.
Guest:I have trouble sometimes even just.
Marc:Every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You just open your phone and you're like, oh, fuck.
Guest:I can't.
Marc:Is there a setting on my phone that could make this better news?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I will.
Guest:And sometimes I'll avoid it until I, you know, if I feel like today's not the day to read the news.
Marc:I've had to.
Marc:I mean, I had to.
Marc:Like, you know, as upset as I was about Rachel Maddow stopping her show, it was like maybe best for both of us.
Guest:Because you're like, I need a moment to just stay in the narrative every day.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:I'm happy for the information, but I can't.
Marc:It's relentless.
Guest:Relentless.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And then so because you're a sensitive person, you don't have the like, it'll affect you more than it might affect someone else because it goes in.
Marc:But yeah, but for me, like, you know, like I do comedy and like, you know, I'm kind of an aggravated guy and I hyper.
Marc:You know, I was just talking about it on the podcast today for tomorrow.
Marc:The introduction about how like I like I had this realization that I might be addicted to like I worry and I panic and I'm full of dread.
Guest:Do you have anxiety?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:But, like, there was some element to that where I realized, like, because a lot of worry is a waste of time.
Guest:Oh, completely.
Marc:But the thing is, is that if what you're worrying about doesn't, you know, manifest, there's a tremendous relief there.
Marc:And I realized, like, I think I'm just a relief addict.
Guest:When something finally goes well, you're like, oh.
Marc:Well, yeah, well, that's catastrophic thinking.
Marc:You think the worst and it doesn't happen.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:But I worry about little shit and it's like whatever.
Marc:Like, you know, if like, what was I worrying about the other day?
Marc:I worry about my cats unnecessarily.
Marc:I don't have kids, but I can worry about it's sort of OCD ish in a way.
Marc:Like I could worry about how this was going to go.
Marc:Like I just I'm driven by dread.
Marc:But when it doesn't happen, it's sort of like, that was great.
Marc:But that's what you're working towards.
Marc:Can I have that without the panic, dread and worry?
Guest:But isn't that in some sense also like why people go on roller coasters?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It's why people do drugs.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:It's all about that fleeting relief.
Guest:Yeah, the sense of, like, I lived through it.
Guest:I was able to get to the other side.
Marc:But with roller coasters, you do get the terror of the roller coaster, that moment where you're dropping, but then you're like, I can handle this, and you kind of enjoy it.
Guest:Yeah, it releases, doesn't it release something in your... Everything does.
Marc:Like, I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay, so you win the award for the monologue in junior high.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And you put, is that next to the Oscar?
Yeah.
Guest:It's actually, well, nothing's because we're in the process of renovating and moving and stuff.
Guest:So nothing's done.
Guest:But yes, it will absolutely be right next to the Oscar when I'm done.
Marc:Renovating, man.
Marc:Where are you, New York?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Have you ever experienced like a full... I can't do it.
Marc:I'll leave the house before I do that.
Guest:It's... I can't.
Marc:I mean, I couldn't.
Marc:That's why I moved into this house.
Marc:Because I'm like, how long is that going to take?
Marc:My anxiety won't allow it.
Guest:Four years.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Four years.
Marc:It better be fucking amazing.
Guest:I mean, literally, everyone says it'll be twice as much and twice as long.
Guest:I mean, I just don't understand how it's actually allowed to be this way.
Guest:I don't understand how you can say, okay, I will buy this bill of goods for this much money.
Guest:And then they tear something apart and then they go, oh, by the way, it's four times as much.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Guest:What are you going to do?
Guest:I just don't understand.
Guest:I remember talking to someone.
Guest:I was like, how is this allowed?
Guest:I don't understand.
Guest:And everyone just says, that's how it works.
Marc:Is it almost done?
Guest:No.
Marc:But wait, how do you become such an amazing actress?
Marc:So after junior high, what do you do?
Guest:I went to high school.
Guest:I did a lot of plays in high school.
Guest:Then I went to Juilliard.
Guest:I mean, I was a high school dropout, actually.
Yeah.
Guest:You didn't finish?
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:But I wasn't dropping out to do drugs or drink or anything.
Guest:I was actually not going to school to read Shakespeare.
Guest:And I failed P.E.
Guest:twice.
Guest:I mean, I literally could have cared less.
Marc:How were you with languages?
Guest:Not great.
Guest:Not great.
Guest:And then so I started working in regional theater.
Marc:Didn't it drive you crazy not to graduate high school?
Guest:Well, I went back and graduated.
Marc:When?
Guest:I got an adult diploma when I decided I wanted to go to Juilliard.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Because you needed to be a high school graduate.
Marc:So after high school, would you do plays or work?
Guest:Yeah, I worked at a restaurant.
Guest:I worked at the Lucky Cafe, which is a greasy spoon, you know, greasy diner.
Guest:And I worked at River City Cafe in Sacramento and...
Marc:You were in Sacramento a long time.
Guest:But then I was fortunate to work at Sacramento Theater Company.
Guest:I played Juliet at TheaterWorks, which is in Palo Alto, I think.
Guest:And the guy who was playing Romeo had just been accepted to the Juilliard School.
Guest:And I was like, wait a minute.
Guest:I don't know that he's that much better than me.
Guest:Maybe I could go.
Marc:Yeah, it's interesting.
Marc:But, like, the idea of art, though, artist theater, like, because, like, I think in any town you're in that has any theater, that when you go, even if it's bad, there's a humanity to it.
Guest:Completely.
Marc:And you can feel it immediately.
Marc:Even if it's bad, the humanity that you're seeing is unintentional.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because they're trying.
Guest:They're trying.
Guest:And sometimes that's even more fun to watch.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I mean, they write plays and movies about that.
Marc:But art as that kind of human experience, like not just standing in front of a painting or something that's overwrought, but theater in particular, there's a vitality to it no matter what.
Guest:Well, it's movable.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Moment by moment.
Marc:And it's raw.
Marc:It's vulnerable.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Like even if they're trying not to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there could be a dog that starts barking in the middle of the show.
Guest:Someone could forget their line.
Guest:The light doesn't work.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It's the best.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all of a sudden, then you're like, I have no idea what this experience of life, how it's going to open to me.
Guest:And that's what theater is.
Guest:Like, I heard a story that on stage, someone had to take this piece of paper and it was like this special contract, whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it accidentally in their hand, it flew into the audience and they went and, you know, try to get it from the audience member and they just pretended they didn't have it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:So then they're on stage like, OK, let me just try to create something new.
Marc:Has it happened to you like that kind of shit in a big way?
Guest:Something falling into the audience.
Marc:Just like, you know, like I know that my dog came on stage once.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:About like 10 years ago.
Guest:He's got three legs and I and he like that's a scene stealer.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:There was no way.
Guest:And also, he, like, jingles when he walks because he hops.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I could just, as I was acting, I heard him jingling.
Guest:It was like, because he hops.
Guest:Where was this?
Guest:It was on Broadway.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He's backstage?
Guest:Yeah, acting with David Strathairn in a very dramatic scene.
Guest:And someone opened my dressing room door.
Guest:And it was jing-a-jing.
Guest:And I was like, oh, no, he's coming this way.
Guest:He's coming this way.
Guest:He's going to be on stage soon.
Guest:Jing-a-jing-a-jing.
Guest:And then it just stops.
Guest:And I hear the audience gasp.
Guest:And I'm like, he's right next to me.
Guest:So I say a dramatic, I don't look down.
Guest:I just, I look at David.
Guest:I say a line and I start walking off the stage and I'm in like a full period costume with like a hoop skirt.
Guest:It was the heiress.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like, you know, a long time ago.
Guest:And then I hear, then I hear the jing, jing, jing as I'm walking off stage and I pick him up and I hand him to someone.
Guest:I say, put him in my dressing room.
Guest:And then I go back on stage and I, like, finish the line.
Guest:And David's face was so sweet.
Guest:It was like, mm-hmm.
Guest:And I carried him out for curtain call.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:So everybody had a good experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, they were excited.
Guest:I mean, the audience, when something like that happens, for the actor, like, this is the worst experience of my life.
Guest:But the audience is like, I was there for that.
Marc:Yeah, for the dog.
Marc:But, okay, so how do you get into Juilliard?
Guest:I auditioned.
Guest:I mean, I was in San Francisco, or I drove to San Francisco to audition.
Guest:It was like you had to have two monologues, a contemporary and a dramatic.
Guest:And I did Juliet's Gallop Apace, which is basically this monologue that's like,
Guest:you know hurry up son and set because then the moon will rise and i've just married romeo he'll you know climb into my window and we're gonna have sex yeah like that's what the monologue is and um and it's written very the the language is it like builds it like i mean it's quite in my mind sexual and you never really see it yeah that way yeah um i mean because it's like
Guest:um, come Romeo, come night, come thou day and night.
Guest:You know, it's like, it's like, it's quite a lot of coming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lots of coming.
Guest:And so I performed it like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember that the, the teachers, it was, they were, it was like John Sticks, Michael Conan, Liz Smith, who are, you know, all of another generation sitting behind a table.
Guest:Uh, it was like the scene in flash dance, you know, and I do the monologue and I remember, and I'm like lying on the floor at a
Guest:And I remember Michael Kahn just kind of looks at me and smiles and he goes, did you have fun, Jessica?
Guest:I was like, yeah, I did.
Guest:He's like, okay, thank you.
Guest:I was like, that's it?
Guest:All right.
Guest:So I left and I was like, they either hate me because I like really like did something crazy or
Guest:Or that was great.
Guest:And then I got a call back and I came in for the call back and they didn't have me do anything else.
Guest:They just interviewed me.
Guest:They're like, what do you know about New York?
Guest:What do you know about the school?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think they were like, this chick is crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Maybe crazy is a little good for acting.
Marc:Maybe, yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's like, but what did Robin Williams have to do with it?
Guest:So I got a scholarship.
Guest:So my first two years, and you know, it's expensive to live in New York and go to school.
Guest:So I had a ton of loans, you know, the Sally Mae, whatever, student loans and grants and all that stuff.
Guest:And then my final two years, I got the Robin Williams scholarship.
Guest:So he would give a scholarship to a student in need.
Guest:And then also that the teachers would recommend and,
Guest:And that paid for everything.
Guest:All my schooling, my apartment, flying home for Christmas.
Marc:How did they decide on you?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You applied for it, or how does that work?
Guest:No, because they give it to a third-year student, and it's for the third and fourth year.
Guest:And it happens at the end of the second year.
Guest:I mean, the end of my second year, I played Arcadena in The Seagull.
Marc:Were you crazy?
Marc:Because the people I've talked to from Julia are Tim Blake Nelson.
Marc:Like, there's a very competitive, crazy shit, and you don't know who's going to get cut or why.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I was more—when you talked about anxiety and worrying, my first year I was terrified because I'm the first person in my family to go to college.
Guest:It was so expensive to go to that school.
Guest:I had taken out so many loans and, you know— And at that point, this is with the firemen and your mom?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And—which—but also, there's no way to—
Guest:Be able to afford all of this.
Guest:I had two sisters and two brothers younger than me.
Guest:Oh my gosh.
Guest:And yeah, it was pretty intense.
Guest:And then I just thought like if they cut me from this program, all this money is down the tube.
Guest:So first year I was very, I'd like, would like, I'd like TMJ.
Guest:I was so scared that that was going to happen.
Guest:And then I started to kind of calm down my second year.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But did you ever meet Robin?
Guest:I have, the saddest thing is I, you know, I wrote him letters to thank him every year.
Guest:And then I was living in LA, you know, right in the kind of the beginning, got out of school and I was talking to someone about, I was like at a director's meeting at like the Fred Siegel Cafe or something, you know, restaurant.
Guest:And he was asking me this story about the Robin Williams scholarship and all this stuff.
Guest:And then as we're talking, Robin Williams comes into the restaurants and sits down at a table next to me with other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they'd already ordered food.
Guest:He sits down and starts eating.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:He says, you have to go over and talk to him.
Guest:I said, OK, OK, I will.
Guest:I'm going to wait till he's done his meal because I don't want to be rude.
Guest:And then before the server came to grab the dishes, he stood up and kind of ran out.
Guest:So I think he must have been late for something or whatever.
Guest:I jumped up to kind of chase him out of the restaurant.
Guest:And I was like, no, I don't want that's crazy.
Guest:I got to like I don't that feels inappropriate.
Guest:No, it's such a regret.
Guest:Oh, I bet.
Guest:Because that was the only chance really I had to meet him.
Guest:And so now I tell people, I was like, listen, if anyone ever sees me and they want to say hi, do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like it's okay.
Guest:Maybe like wait till I'm done eating.
Guest:If I'm running out of a restaurant, you can run with me.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:A week ago, I was crossing the street in New York and I was in a hurry and someone's like, oh my God, I was like, walk with me.
Guest:And so we like walked for 10 blocks, you know, having a conversation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah, you know, just come over and say hi, because that's a huge regret that I have that I didn't get the chance to think I'm in person.
Marc:Well, yeah, he was a sweet guy.
Marc:But that whole that policy of saying hi, it's like you might get some weirdos.
Guest:But, you know, I mean, I've I've I mean, I was the weirdo with the banana peel.
Guest:So it's going to take a lot to to weird me out.
Marc:So after Juilliard, you just stayed in New York.
Guest:I got a deal.
Guest:So we were the first class to do an L.A.
Guest:showcase.
Marc:Who was in your class?
Marc:Anyone we know?
Guest:Michael Urie.
Guest:Did you ever watch Ugly Betty?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's an actor from Ugly Betty.
Guest:Jess Weixler.
Guest:Did you see that movie Teeth?
Marc:No.
Guest:It's about vagina dentata.
Marc:Oh, I think I heard about it.
Guest:Yeah, she's the lead actress of that.
Guest:She's my best friend.
Guest:So, yeah, there's a lot of I've worked with a lot of there's a lot of people maybe.
Guest:three or four that are still working.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was there with Anthony Mackie was there.
Guest:Oscar Isaac was there.
Marc:Oh, so you know Oscar that long?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Oscar and I've known each other for like 20 years.
Marc:So when you work with him, it's like, oh, yeah.
Marc:You did stuff with him in college?
Guest:Well, the crazy thing is we never worked together in college.
Guest:However, my boyfriend in college was his best friend.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So I got to know Oscar, which is the amazing way for a woman, I guess, to become friends with a man.
Guest:It's like there never was anything like, oh, are we going to date?
Guest:Like we never had or like let's make out one night.
Guest:We never had that because my boyfriend was his best friend.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was always just like he was like a brother, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I also like heard all the bad behavior.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I saw all the bad behavior.
Marc:Well, yeah, you got the, you know, like you can't tell Oscar I told you this, but.
Guest:Yeah, or Oscar would just tell me.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:I mean, I just saw it all.
Guest:And so we became like really close.
Guest:And then when we did scenes from a marriage, that was awkward because it was like, oh.
Guest:oh yeah yeah we never kissed before it was like so weird was it yeah it was it was like in the beginning i was like i don't know how this is gonna work and then it's your pals yeah that's hilarious yeah but then my ex-boyfriend who i don't talk to anymore starts all of a sudden texting me and texting oscar really yeah we were working together so like a boyfriend from that long ago you don't talk to anyone that must have really went badly
Guest:Yeah, it went terribly.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Not a good relationship.
Marc:But that most violent year, that movie you did with him.
Guest:Oh, we did kiss in that.
Guest:Sorry, we kissed in that.
Guest:See, I forgot.
Guest:I mean, we were like.
Marc:But those characters are kind of weirdly cold.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we did have a scene, though.
Guest:I remember we have a scene in that movie where we kiss in the bathroom.
Guest:And I remember thinking that moment because we had a kiss.
Guest:And I remember saying to him.
Guest:You're a good kisser, Oscar.
Guest:Which is like, I don't know.
Guest:It's like, is that a weird thing to say?
Guest:It's probably weird.
Guest:But so, yeah.
Guest:But I completely forgot.
Guest:Yes, we did kiss in that movie before scenes from America.
Marc:That movie is a weird movie.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's very much like a throwback to like a Sidney Lumet film.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like I kept waiting for something.
Marc:I don't know what I thought was going to happen, but it kind of just moves along.
Marc:And it was one of those movies that after I was done with them, like, did I not get that movie?
Guest:You're like, where's all the violence?
Yeah.
Guest:It's the most violent year.
Guest:I need to see the violence.
Guest:I love that film, though.
Marc:I love the way it looked.
Marc:I love the characters.
Marc:Like, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if I was expecting violence, but it's an odd sort of the whole it's one of those movies where I'm like, why would somebody write this movie?
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:In the sense of like that guy was like, why that job?
Marc:Why that?
Marc:Like, what was that?
Guest:I think it's a I think this director is very interested in American culture and capitalism because he did Margin Call.
Guest:OK, I think his dad works in finance.
Guest:He kind of grew up in that world.
Yeah.
Guest:Um, and so that film, especially Oscar's character was an immigrant.
Guest:Um, my care, you know, the daughter of some, you know, like the way things used to be, this is how you got to handle things.
Guest:He's trying to live an honorable life.
Guest:It's impossible to do that with American capitalism.
Marc:And also in that racket, wasn't he in like waste or something or cement or oil or gasoline?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's very kind of esoteric, strange business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think it wasn't the heating oil.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:But still, that's very interesting.
Guest:You know, like people were stealing the trucks.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And the mob was sort of involved there.
Guest:Or no, I wanted the mob to get involved because I was the daughter of a... Yeah, a dubious kid.
Guest:And he's like, no, we're going to live honorably.
Guest:And then at the end of the film, you're like, hmm, I think he's realizing that's not the way he can survive in this industry.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then like it was weird because he showed up in James Gray's movie, The Armageddon Time.
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:As Trump's mom.
Guest:Sister.
Marc:Sister.
Guest:Yeah, Marianne Trump.
Marc:That's a funny movie.
Guest:I love that film.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He actually, James Gray asked me to do it.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:We kind of became friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that guy.
Guest:He said, you know, he's like, it's a, you know, it's a one part, one scene role.
Guest:I didn't even read it.
Guest:I said, I will do it and I'll do it for free.
Guest:Because once I found out it was kind of like based on his childhood stuff, I'm all about, like, I would love to be a part of something that helps someone.
Guest:Process?
Guest:Yeah, and tell a story that, like, is deep to them.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So when, like, I don't know what your schedule is.
Marc:You probably got to get out of here.
Marc:Where do you got to be?
Marc:You got to do a Q&A?
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:Probably not until tonight.
Marc:Oh, what's that about?
Marc:SAG?
Guest:i think sag foundation i think so yeah someone moderates i think yeah it's mike shannon and i oh mike's gonna be there yeah for george and tammy so we we're going and um i think rachel moore um our music producer which it's it's so badass that she's the music producer because you know she spent a lot of time in nashville she's worked on a lot of albums she worked with t-bone brunette for a very long time oh yeah
Guest:And it's very, you know, it's not often you get to work with a female music producer and supervisor in film and television.
Guest:And we kind of brought her into this.
Guest:She'd never really done it before.
Marc:Oh, it's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All that stuff was great.
Guest:She did such a good job.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yeah, I, well, I mean, it's, well, like I know you've talked about it publicly.
Marc:There's not, you know, women in general don't show up in these jobs as much as they should.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, they're not really afforded opportunities.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I mean, they tend to work side by side or helping, you know, successful male producer.
Guest:But for her, you know, T-Bone really supported her in doing this.
Marc:He seems like a solid cat.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He just was on.
Marc:There's this new Dylan thing that he was.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The re-recording.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:It is kind of like.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I want to.
Marc:I always want to resent these guys that keep producing things.
Yeah.
Marc:It's like, enough.
Marc:We get it.
Guest:You're very good at what you do.
Marc:But there are these weird interpretations of his own song.
Marc:And because he's Bob Dylan, you've got to be like, why is he choosing these?
Marc:What does this mean at this point in his life?
Marc:He's like this weird, mysterious dude.
Guest:Yeah, but I also like... Now, I don't know if it's changed since I was first brought to my attention.
Guest:Isn't it a situation, though, where it's kind of like...
Guest:I mean, it's looking at society and this idea of streaming and this idea of consumption.
Guest:Is it the situation where it's going to be auctioned off?
Guest:It's like one record?
Marc:No, I think there's a documentary alongside of it.
Marc:They shot it down in a warehouse in Santa Monica during COVID because he couldn't tour.
Marc:So he pulled these guys together.
Marc:I don't know where it all goes or why.
Marc:But I just heard the record, and I didn't want to like it because I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:So they played the music in the documentary?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think it's of the playing of the music.
Marc:I haven't watched it yet.
Guest:That's interesting.
Marc:But, like, he put out that record a couple years ago, and I'm like, it's a 17-minute song on it.
Marc:You know?
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:But I just.
Guest:But I think, and we're going to have to look this up because I believe T-Bone told me a year ago or maybe a year and a half ago that he's doing something right now with Dylan where there's a record that he's going to auction it off.
Guest:One record?
Guest:And it has a certain amount of plays before it won't play anymore.
Marc:Oh, so it's like an NFT?
Guest:So, yes.
Guest:Or it's like a paint.
Guest:It's like, you know, the person who buy it, like this is a special thing you have.
Guest:It's not like it'll live forever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you can't play it.
Guest:You can only play it like a hundred times.
Guest:Oh, a hundred times.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Listen, I should know more about this.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:It's not your job.
Marc:So you saying all the Tammy stuff?
Guest:Yes, everything in the show, yeah.
Guest:95% of what's on the show is us singing on set.
Guest:And then there's also going to be a vinyl, which is not us on set.
Guest:It's like a more finished version that was done in a studio.
Marc:And this woman who did the music producing.
Guest:Yes, Rachel.
Marc:Yeah, like what was her task basically?
Guest:It was so intense, man.
Guest:So she was in charge of all of that.
Guest:So we were all together when we did all the studio singing, working with the band.
Guest:All the guys in the series are actual session players from Nashville.
Guest:And then what she would do, this is beyond what I really thought I ever wanted to do in my life, and I will never do it again.
Guest:But the mics are hot.
Guest:So you get on stage to do this.
Guest:You have hundreds of extras.
Guest:You do one take where they're putting the music through everything.
Guest:So the extras hear your vocal and they hear the music.
Guest:Then for every take from then on, we had an earwig in our ear that played the music.
Guest:And the only sound in the room was our cold vocal.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So when you're seeing Stand By Your Man or something, you're like, that's not what I really want to happen.
Guest:In front of people?
Guest:In front of people.
Guest:And it's like, okay, I'm going to do this for 10 hours today.
Guest:I'm sure maybe, hopefully, we'll get a take that is usable.
Guest:But that means also there's going to be a lot of times that, you know, I'm going to, like, have egg on my face.
Guest:Or, you know, it's embarrassing.
Guest:Like, just like when you're shooting a scene, you're going to forget lines.
Guest:You're going to do something.
Guest:So it was quite stressful.
Guest:And the audience was very sweet and very kind to us.
Guest:But Rachel was in charge of all of that.
Guest:She needed to get the clean vocal, which meant she couldn't have music with it.
Marc:Sure.
Sure.
Marc:Yeah, that element of embarrassment.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Guest:And that's probably why the kid in junior high that was like, I'm going to embarrass myself.
Marc:To transcend it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've got to be willing.
Guest:There's got to be some sense of.
Guest:All right, we're going to talk about something.
Guest:There's the Pacino versus De Niro conversation.
Guest:Who are you?
Marc:Well, it's weird.
Marc:I like them for two different reasons.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What are the two reasons?
Marc:I think that Al Pacino is still capable of taking risks.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I think Robert De Niro has kind of settled into something.
Guest:And what I think, and yes, I mean, they're both icons.
Guest:They're great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What I am so interested in with acting is someone who's willing to humiliate themselves.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, Pacino is definitely...
Guest:You know, when someone you see someone like even with Dog Day Afternoon, he had just done The Godfather.
Marc:So raw, though.
Guest:So raw, Dog Day.
Guest:So good.
Guest:But can you imagine?
Guest:He's this actor who's like this huge thing now because The Godfather.
Guest:And he's like, I want to play a man who's robbing a bank to pay for a sex change operation for my boyfriend.
Wow.
Guest:At that time, no one thought that was a good idea.
Guest:And he's like, you know what?
Guest:I am willing to put myself out there as an artist.
Guest:And it's okay if people don't think I'm a man enough or they don't think I'm this enough.
Guest:And that's what's interesting to me.
Marc:I think he still does it.
Marc:I think there was a couple of those HBO bio things.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:His Kevorkian, that thing, that's amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:And, you know, the Phil Spector thing was OK.
Marc:But like I really feel that with him that like, you know, for years he kind of got into this zone.
Marc:I saw him do American Buffalo in Boston.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:Shortly after he did Scarface.
Marc:And I swear he was still a little Cuban.
Yeah.
Marc:He hadn't quite shaken the Tony Montana.
Guest:Was the audience loving it, though?
Marc:Yeah, I don't know that he was doing it on purpose, but I'm like, I think it was a little Tony Montana.
Marc:It was okay for that character.
Marc:But then he got into that, like, hoo-ha.
Marc:There was this thing that I started to worry about him.
Marc:Because a lot of those old method guys, they just become a collection of tics and habits that they can rely on.
Guest:And people stop saying no to them or stop directing them.
Marc:Yeah, but both of them, surprisingly, oddly, that movie that De Niro did with Anne Hathaway, The Intern, he's really good in that.
Guest:He's great at comedy.
Guest:But he's very sweet.
Guest:Meet the parents.
Marc:But it wasn't broad comedy.
Marc:It was an older guy that was experiencing grief.
Marc:And, you know, and wanted to get and help this woman, you know, and he used to work in the building.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's like it's comedy, but he's playing a sort of sweet, you know, kind of heavy hearted guy.
Marc:And he can still do that.
Guest:Oh, totally.
Marc:But like but Pacino, you're like, well, it's going to happen.
Guest:You have no idea.
Guest:He's just willing.
Marc:You work with him, right?
Guest:He's the one who started my whole career.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Really.
Guest:It was, I was, because I, you know, I had done The Cherry Orchard with Michelle.
Guest:We were talking about vegan food earlier.
Marc:I want to talk to her.
Marc:I love her so much.
Guest:Yeah, she's great.
Guest:I was doing, I was actually in Australia visiting them and I got a call that Al Pacino wanted me to audition for Salome.
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:How is that even possible?
Guest:And so I went in to audition for Salome.
Guest:And from the moment I walked in, Jeremy Strong was my reader.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is crazy, you know, because we were both like these friends.
Guest:We were friends and we were struggling actors.
Guest:And we started at the beginning of the play, or Salome's entrance.
Guest:And I could hear him in the audience go, wow, she's amazing.
Guest:Like all this.
Guest:And as I was acting.
Marc:With that Pacino wow.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Wow.
Guest:You know, and as I was acting, I was like, this is not only was the first time I was like, oh, my gosh, this is the first person to really take me seriously.
Guest:But it's Al Pacino.
Guest:So, yeah, he's he started my whole career.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Are you friends still?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He came to see me in a doll's house.
Guest:He goes, oh, you're like my daughter.
Guest:Oh, I'm so proud of you.
Guest:It was so sweet.
Guest:And then a friend of mine in the show was so excited to meet him.
Guest:And Al goes over to him and he goes, you, that voice, you project so well.
Guest:My friend was like, he only talked about my projection.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:He's probably being too sensitive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, listen, Al wouldn't have said anything to you if he didn't like what you were doing.
Marc:So what are you working on now?
Guest:Oh, gosh.
Guest:So I just finished the play on Saturday.
Guest:Of course, because there's the strike.
Marc:Oh, you can't do anything.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We're taking a, there's a holding pattern for a while, but I'm going to be doing, when we're all ready to go, I'm going to go do a mini series called The Savant.
Guest:I have another, I'm going to do a film with Michel Franco, who's an amazing director, you know, Mexican filmmaker.
Marc:Yeah, so I've got...
Guest:I would love to.
Marc:You love it?
Guest:I love Shakespeare.
Guest:I mean, it's interesting.
Guest:I might do, now that I've done this play, I'm like, maybe I'll go back and do a play every couple of years in New York.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Why not, right?
Guest:Yeah, if you like it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:So I think maybe in 2025 I'll do something else.
Guest:Also Doll's House, I was thinking it could be fun to tour that a little bit next year.
Guest:Maybe take it to Dubai, if they'll let us.
Guest:That could be interesting, right?
Marc:I don't know what's in Dubai.
Marc:Why Dubai?
Guest:Because wouldn't it be fascinating to have a play where the woman... Yeah, sure.
Guest:I like to be a little provoking in my work.
Marc:Yeah, why not?
Marc:That'd be amazing.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:Oh, thank you so much.
Guest:So good to talk to you.
Guest:And I'm so glad I didn't have to use the hammer.
Marc:Yeah, no one's had to use a hammer.
Marc:I'm going to try to.
Guest:And also the fact that the handle is like, it's shaved down to like a point.
Marc:Well, it's a broken hammer, and I think it comes from like some part of my past.
Marc:Like, I don't know where, like, I didn't own that hammer when it was whole.
Guest:You didn't.
Marc:Like, it showed up somewhere, and I thought, like, what a weird thing.
Marc:I don't know why it has stayed in my life.
Guest:And you set it right in front of your guests.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I never really think about it.
Marc:It made sense in the old studio.
Marc:There was so much clutter.
Marc:So much of my life was everywhere.
Marc:But when I set this desk up in here, I'm like, well, I want to put some of the stuff that was in there.
Marc:Yes, of course.
Marc:But in this environment, which isn't cluttered, it's a little odd.
Marc:Everything takes on a lot of meaning.
Guest:Well, this with this huge knife.
Marc:That was left in my old apartment by a woman who was subletting it who had a boyfriend who collected knives.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:So the back story on some of this stuff, the top, I'm not sure where that came from.
Guest:It's kind of like a rainbow-y top.
Marc:I got these on a beach in Kauai, some weird beach.
Guest:Oh, that's cool.
Marc:It's like pieces of metal.
Guest:There's no rhyme, no reason.
Marc:You guys are getting all- That's a record before they smush it into a record.
Guest:Oh, this is right here?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The vinyl?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's a vinyl before they smush it.
Guest:I hate music.
Marc:That's a, I don't know, what is it?
Guest:Trees of Barcelona.
Guest:Super.
Marc:Super Chunk.
Marc:Super Chunk.
Marc:It's a Super Chunk record.
Guest:Yeah, you got the, this is, I remember my.
Marc:That's a very hard one.
Guest:Yeah, this is like, I don't know if anyone, what these are called, but it's the thing that you squeeze in your hands.
Guest:Like it's in all the 80s movies where you see the.
Marc:Exercising the wrists or the hand muscles.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:This somebody made for me.
Guest:That's beautiful.
Guest:I love mosaic-y stuff.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, have fun.
Marc:Say hi to Michael Shannon for me.
Guest:I will.
Guest:I'll see him tonight.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Okay, there you go.
Marc:Isn't she the best?
Marc:I never know what to expect, and I really had a hard time all the way through just realizing, like, she's just a person.
Marc:She's an actress, and she's very nice.
Marc:Anyway, she's nominated for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series or Movie at this year's Emmy Awards.
Marc:And also, in case you weren't following this at the time it happened, Jessica sent me an email confirmation.
Marc:that the exchange with Ben Kingsley actually happened.
Marc:I saw it with my own eyes, people.
Marc:She just wanted to set the record straight on that, and I'm doing it for you now.
Marc:All right, hang out for a minute.
Marc:If you didn't notice, I popped up on last week's Friday show.
Marc:Brendan taught me about the Montreal Screwjob, and I shared some examples of comedy screwjobs.
Marc:There's one story that I always liked, and it's the story with Jon Stewart and Alan King.
Marc:Wait, I don't know this.
Marc:Oh, it's pretty great, but it's pretty classic, and it is exactly that.
Marc:Like, you know, Stuart was just the way I got the story.
Marc:And I don't know if John told me when, you know, he would talk to me or I got it secondhand.
Marc:But it seems pretty real.
Marc:So John was starting out and he had a gig opening for Alan King somewhere.
Marc:And.
Marc:You know, and Alan, you know, introduces himself.
Marc:They talk before the show, and Alan's like, listen, you new guys, I know you say what you want to say, and I just want you to know it's okay with me.
Marc:You say whatever you want.
Marc:Use whatever language you want, you know, because I know that's the way, you know, you guys do it, and I respect for that, whatever.
Marc:And John's like, oh, thanks, I appreciate it, right?
Marc:So John goes out there, and he's like, fucking this, fucking that, right?
Marc:And he's just doing his act, and he brings Alan King up, and right out of the gate, like, these kids with the fucking this, fucking that.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:There are bonus episodes twice a week for full Marin subscribers with a new one posting tomorrow.
Marc:Sign up by clicking on the link in the episode description or by going to WTF pod.com and clicking on WTF plus.
Marc:Now I tried using a quick track.
Marc:Tell me if it made a difference.
Marc:I'm not used to him.
Bye.
Guest:Yeah.
.
.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lifts.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.