Episode 1459 - Alex Winter

Episode 1459 • Released August 7, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck, buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck, New Yorkers?

00:00:15Marc:Yes, what's happening?

00:00:17Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:18Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:20Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:21Marc:Obviously, I am broadcasting from another place.

00:00:25Marc:I am not at home.

00:00:26Marc:I am not in the studio.

00:00:28Marc:I am in a hotel room in New York City.

00:00:32Marc:I've been here before.

00:00:33Marc:You've heard me from this location before.

00:00:36Marc:I just came to New York.

00:00:37Marc:I gotta be honest with you.

00:00:39Marc:This has probably been the best trip I've had to New York in years, and I'm trying to figure out why.

00:00:47Marc:And I think one of the reasons is I didn't really have any business.

00:00:52Marc:I had no real reason to come here other than I needed to go to New York.

00:00:58Marc:I just, I needed to, something about the city, not only does it

00:01:04Marc:invigorate me and get my brain going but it actually relaxes me somehow and i had to sort of deconstruct that yeah i mean i had to sort of like you know why what is it about it what is it about me that where i come to this kind of the one of the busiest cities in the world and it's just kind of i'm i i feel relaxed i feel myself i feel connected but i'll figure it out in a second let me let me try to uh

00:01:32Marc:set up the show here.

00:01:33Marc:Alex Winter is here.

00:01:34Marc:Now, a lot of you people know him as Bill from the Bill and Ted movies, but he was an actor since childhood and lots of stage and film credits, and now he's a prolific documentary film director.

00:01:45Marc:He's made docs about Napster, The Dark Web, child actors, Frank Zappa, and now he has a new one called The YouTube Effect.

00:01:52Marc:Now, I've watched...

00:01:53Marc:The Zappa doc.

00:01:55Marc:And I thought it was great.

00:01:57Marc:I thought that it was a very big subject to kind of put into context and really get a sense of.

00:02:05Marc:And I thought he did an amazing job with that.

00:02:07Marc:And I watched the dark web one in prep to talk to him.

00:02:11Marc:And also, obviously, the new YouTube one.

00:02:14Marc:But these two...

00:02:16Marc:The dark web and the YouTube effect kind of really create this sort of interesting portal or context to understand kind of where we're at culturally and what we're engaging with and how not only the world works and information works and transactional culture works,

00:02:37Marc:But with YouTube, it's interesting what it says about show business and what it says about what people watch and what it says about sort of how people's attention spans are exploited, how algorithms kind of work.

00:02:50Marc:I don't know.

00:02:51Marc:It seems as important as a conversation I had with Robert Guffey about sort of the overview and history of conspiracy theories.

00:02:59Marc:Later this month, I'm not sure where we'll post it, but I'm going to record...

00:03:03Marc:a talk with Jeff Charlotte about Christian nationalism.

00:03:08Marc:So every once in a while, I do these shows that are more informational and more, I wouldn't say investigative, but sort of shedding some light on the cultural undercurrents.

00:03:20Marc:And certainly, they're not even undercurrents.

00:03:23Marc:They're actually...

00:03:25Marc:tidal waves that are, are kind of redefining culture for better, for worse.

00:03:29Marc:So, but you know, I talked to Alex too, a little bit about his life and what he did in the past and, and the regular stuff.

00:03:35Marc:But it was really one of these things where once I engaged with the material, I was like, holy shit, I didn't know any of this.

00:03:43Marc:and it's like it really dictates a lot of the world we live in so uh i was excited that's that's all i'm saying so okay so let's let's break it down like what what am i experiencing because i i talked to you i think about

00:03:59Marc:maybe wanting to try to have a place here or to live here, and then sort of I go waffle back and forth.

00:04:04Marc:It's very expensive, and I have an anxiety problem.

00:04:07Marc:Look, this is a luxury issue, but yeah, I might eventually move back here altogether.

00:04:12Marc:I don't know what it is about me

00:04:14Marc:In the sense that, you know, some part of me is like, well, yeah, maybe I should, you know, when I retire, which I kind of want to do at some point.

00:04:22Marc:I don't know.

00:04:22Marc:I just have a kind of a working class brain around retirement.

00:04:27Marc:It does seem to feel to me like, why wouldn't you want to stop eventually?

00:04:32Marc:I thought about going to New Mexico, and then I just never know what I'm going to do.

00:04:36Marc:But I just got this feeling like I have to get out, and I need to go to New York.

00:04:41Marc:I don't need to go to New Mexico.

00:04:42Marc:I don't need to go to the islands.

00:04:44Marc:I don't need to go to the desert.

00:04:45Marc:I don't want that meditative experience.

00:04:48Marc:I'm in my head enough.

00:04:50Marc:I'm sitting at home.

00:04:51Marc:I'm trying to write jokes.

00:04:52Marc:I'm doing interviews.

00:04:53Marc:I'm writing whatever it is that I write.

00:04:55Marc:I'm taking in movies.

00:04:56Marc:I'm listening to music.

00:04:57Marc:But I don't need more time in my head.

00:05:01Marc:And I think one of the reasons that I like to go to New York, and I realized this last week, it has sort of a Ritalin effect on me.

00:05:09Marc:You know, the idea that if you have a certain type of brain and you jack it up, it kind of levels off.

00:05:15Marc:It kind of plateaus into something that feels not as noisy, not as tweaked, not as anxiety ridden.

00:05:22Marc:And it's like Ritalin and you feel kind of relaxed.

00:05:26Marc:And I think that's what happens when I come to New York City.

00:05:28Marc:I've lived here enough times and long enough to sort of interface with the city effectively.

00:05:34Marc:I'm very comfortable here.

00:05:35Marc:I have a part of the city that part of my brain and heart lives in down here on the Lower East Side.

00:05:41Marc:But I really think that when I get here, something just gives way and I completely relax.

00:05:46Marc:There's something about being, and I believe I've talked about this probably every time I come to fucking New York.

00:05:53Marc:That just, it just sort of like, I just level off and all the noise in my head stops.

00:05:58Marc:And then it really becomes the external noise of the city.

00:06:02Marc:And that just sort of replaces it.

00:06:04Marc:And somehow or another, I'm like, oh man, that's a load off.

00:06:07Marc:I don't have to make, I don't have to generate all that noise in my own head involuntarily.

00:06:11Marc:It's all happening around me.

00:06:12Marc:There's just, no matter where you go, you're picking up bits and pieces of conversation.

00:06:16Marc:You're seeing full lives pass you by.

00:06:18Marc:There's just...

00:06:19Marc:Thousands of people everywhere.

00:06:21Marc:And I've always thought and I still feel every time I come here that it's it gives me hope somehow for humanity when I'm in this city, because there are so many different types of people all kind of, you know, butting up against each other.

00:06:34Marc:And there's a certain level of tolerance and excitement and electricity and just humanity to the whole thing.

00:06:40Marc:So there's that.

00:06:42Marc:But then I started to think like, what is life made of?

00:06:45Marc:And I've been talking about this a bit otherwise in different ways in terms of interacting with other people.

00:06:52Marc:Like I had some fucking great days and they were just loaded with conversation that wasn't part of my job.

00:07:00Marc:Literally hours of conversation with friends and

00:07:04Marc:And it was easy because when you live in New York, as opposed to L.A.

00:07:08Marc:or as opposed to a suburb or as opposed to maybe where you live, in order just to hang out, well, it depends.

00:07:14Marc:I mean, you might have a habit of it or you might have people you meet for coffee once a week or whatever.

00:07:19Marc:But in New York, it's literally you could just text somebody.

00:07:22Marc:It's like, hey, man, I'm four blocks from your place.

00:07:25Marc:Do you want to have coffee?

00:07:26Marc:That's...

00:07:26Marc:For me, that's code for talk for two hours.

00:07:29Marc:And it's sort of that easy.

00:07:31Marc:It's all very accessible.

00:07:33Marc:It's not a big lift.

00:07:34Marc:It's not a big drive.

00:07:35Marc:You don't have to invest your entire day in it.

00:07:39Marc:So there's immediate interaction with people that are in the area that doesn't require much planning.

00:07:44Marc:And I realized this morning that that would sort of expand my social life, my engagement, and just sort of...

00:07:54Marc:You kind of that connection and and kind of, you know, sharing stuff and building your brain.

00:07:59Marc:It was just I don't know, man.

00:08:01Marc:I also went to the Whitney to see the Jane Quick to see Smith.

00:08:04Marc:I'm not sure if it's Jane or Juwan, but this is a native artist that it's amazing.

00:08:10Marc:It's a full retrospective.

00:08:11Marc:And I knew her name because I believe when I was a kid in New Mexico in the 80s.

00:08:15Marc:or seventies that she was just coming up.

00:08:18Marc:Uh, she was living in New Mexico at the time.

00:08:20Marc:And I can't remember.

00:08:21Marc:I have to ask my mother.

00:08:21Marc:I think that we might've had a print of hers in the house.

00:08:24Marc:So it was all sort of connected.

00:08:25Marc:And I got excited about that, about seeing all the native art, about going to the Whitney, about going to that, just that structure and being among those paintings.

00:08:34Marc:And I guess I could get this in LA, but I don't, I don't do it.

00:08:40Marc:So why should you care about this?

00:08:42Marc:I don't know, maybe I'm just talking and I'm just excited.

00:08:46Marc:And New York, outside of anything else, somehow gives me, it just feeds my soul.

00:08:53Marc:It gives me hope and humanity.

00:08:54Marc:This city gives me hope and humanity.

00:08:57Marc:It gives me hope for democracy functioning.

00:08:59Marc:It gives me hope because it's one of the few places

00:09:03Marc:because I'm a little isolated, because L.A.

00:09:06Marc:and a lot of other cities don't work like this socially in terms of the amount of people occupying the same space, it is a beautiful kind of example of tolerance.

00:09:17Marc:And that's something that we're running very short on, and it's running out, and it's going to be the collapse of this democratic idea is tolerance.

00:09:28Marc:living alongside your fellow human beings, no matter who they are.

00:09:31Marc:There's a thought I've always had, and it's a reality about New York that I've always...

00:09:36Marc:kind of talked about is when you're on the streets in new york if you're not like if you're in trouble like if something happens if someone goes down you know there'll be chaos for a minute but there's always going to be somebody that's going to step up and go oh what's going on over here what's the matter with her all right well don't get out of the way let me take care of this i'm a fireman whatever the case you know somebody will step in selflessly and handle it i mean granted there's a lot of you know

00:10:01Marc:profound problems with homelessness and there are people laying on the street here and there so the engagement's a little different it's like go see if that guy is uh is he breathing is he all right what why don't you put give him that water all right but but it happens and it and it happens in a second nature kind of way in a way that is fundamentally who we are as people in terms of taking care of other people you know in our species and

00:10:27Marc:And that's exciting to me.

00:10:29Marc:You know, it's just, I don't know, it makes me feel good.

00:10:33Marc:If you are in these cities, I'll be at the Salt Lake City Wise Guys this weekend, August 11th and 12th for four shows.

00:10:39Marc:Helium in St.

00:10:40Marc:Louis, September 14th through 16th for five shows.

00:10:43Marc:Then I'm at the Las Vegas Wise Guys on September 22nd and 23rd, also four shows.

00:10:48Marc:And then October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd.

00:10:54Marc:A couple of those shows are already sold out.

00:10:56Marc:Go to WTF pod.com for tickets.

00:11:00Marc:Oh, it was funny because I went to see that quick to see Smith show and she's a very prolific native artist.

00:11:05Marc:And I got excited and I wanted to share it with somebody.

00:11:08Marc:So I texted Sterling Harjo and I'm like, Hey man, have you seen this show?

00:11:12Marc:Like, it's like that in my mind, like I didn't know if it was weird or, or, or, or relevant or, or just correct.

00:11:20Marc:And I'm like, I'm going to share this native artist with the, with one of the few natives I have a relationship with.

00:11:28Marc:I was like, this is my native outreach.

00:11:31Marc:And Harjo hadn't heard of her or seen her work.

00:11:35Marc:You know, he's over in Tulsa.

00:11:36Marc:They just, I think Reservation Dogs, the final season just started.

00:11:40Marc:And so I said, I can't believe it.

00:11:42Marc:It's amazing stuff.

00:11:43Marc:And I bought him a catalog, had it sent out there.

00:11:47Marc:Got him a little present.

00:11:49Marc:All right.

00:11:49Marc:So look, Alex Winter is he's this was a great conversation.

00:11:55Marc:And it's right up my alley in terms of sort of understanding the nature of the reality and the way we take in reality.

00:12:05Marc:and what is reality and how are our brains being fucked with and what is entertainment and what is sort of... It just is one of these all-encompassing conversations that really engages everything that we're up against in what really turns out to not be reality, but what is sort of taking control of our behaviors and our mind.

00:12:29Marc:And one of those things is YouTube.

00:12:32Marc:So...

00:12:33Marc:The YouTube Effect, which is this doc that he's directed, is available starting tomorrow, August 8th, on the digital on-demand service of your choice.

00:12:40Marc:This is an independently produced documentary, and Alex was not promoting it on behalf of any struck companies.

00:12:47Marc:But I still want to point out that we recorded this on July 6th before the SAG strike, so that's why there's no discussion about that.

00:12:54Marc:This is me talking to Alex Winter.

00:13:00Marc:You've done a lot of things.

00:13:08Marc:Speaking as someone who has done a lot of things.

00:13:10Marc:Yeah.

00:13:12Marc:Oddly, I watched the Lost Boys recently.

00:13:14Marc:Oh, wow.

00:13:16Marc:I don't know.

00:13:17Marc:You know, I'm not sure why I did necessarily.

00:13:19Marc:Yeah.

00:13:20Marc:But I really like the music.

00:13:22Marc:Yeah.

00:13:23Marc:In the Lost Boys.

00:13:24Marc:Yeah, it was a fun soundtrack.

00:13:25Guest:Right?

00:13:25Guest:Yeah, especially that Echo cover, which is amazing.

00:13:27Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:13:29Marc:And then I was like, I wonder how that holds up.

00:13:31Marc:Yeah.

00:13:32Marc:You know, like...

00:13:33Marc:Like it was an important film that I wanted to see.

00:13:37Marc:Like, is it still relevant?

00:13:39Marc:Right.

00:13:39Marc:Yeah.

00:13:40Marc:But it was kind of, it kind of is a good movie.

00:13:42Marc:Yeah.

00:13:43Marc:Yeah.

00:13:43Marc:I mean, it's a fun.

00:13:44Marc:And all those, like Jason Patrick, when everyone was younger and relatively normal seeming.

00:13:49Marc:Exactly.

00:13:49Guest:That's right.

00:13:50Guest:Yeah.

00:13:50Guest:Before everyone went off the rails.

00:13:52Guest:I mean, that was as everyone was literally about to go off the rails.

00:13:55Guest:Right.

00:13:56Guest:Everyone was sort of like perched on the balcony.

00:13:58Guest:Yeah.

00:13:58Guest:And then they just jumped after that.

00:14:00Marc:Yeah, and now there's been this arc, because you're about my age, where I'm starting to realize, like, Jesus Christ, I'm older than everybody all of a sudden.

00:14:09Marc:Right.

00:14:09Marc:But all those guys from your generation of actors, whether they went off the rails or not, they're just old guys now.

00:14:15Marc:Exactly.

00:14:15Marc:Yeah.

00:14:16Guest:It's kind of freaking me out.

00:14:18Guest:For me, I guess because I'm one of them, and I'm sure you can look at your life this way as well in terms of the things you were doing at that age.

00:14:25Guest:Yeah.

00:14:25Guest:i'm grateful for it yeah like because some of us didn't make it right quite a few of us didn't make it at all like the guy in people in that movie yeah like cory haim is gone and and brooke mccarter is gone and and you know cory feldman too right cory feldman's around no i know yeah i don't i just i've been through the wars you know i get reels occasionally of him uh dancing in an odd way yes precisely

00:14:49Guest:It's a succinct way of putting the Corey Feldman thing.

00:14:54Guest:Do you talk to that guy?

00:14:56Guest:I'm in touch with Jason.

00:14:58Guest:I'm in touch with Kiefer.

00:15:02Guest:I've seen Corey once, I think, in 25 years.

00:15:04Guest:Was he in that doc you did or he wasn't?

00:15:06Guest:No.

00:15:06Guest:I really wanted to focus on people.

00:15:10Guest:who I felt had kind of been through the whole thing, kind of landed in a sort of relatively normal place and wanted to speak kind of, you know, more from the other side.

00:15:21Guest:Oh, not in terms of like, you know, I'm still... Yeah, Corey's really in the thick of it.

00:15:26Guest:And, you know, it's not like I fault him for that, but he's really working through stuff right now.

00:15:31Guest:And because my story, because it was kind of an autobiographical story without being in it.

00:15:35Guest:Yeah.

00:15:35Guest:The one doc, I watched a couple of it, three of your docs.

00:15:39Guest:Yeah, but I'm not in it.

00:15:41Guest:I just intentionally.

00:15:42Guest:But it sort of tells my story through other people because all of our stories are the same.

00:15:46Marc:But was your experience, like there are some people that were...

00:15:50Marc:Like, I don't associate you with a major television exposure for many years as a child.

00:15:56Guest:No, but I started on Broadway as a child.

00:16:00Guest:I was 12, 13.

00:16:02Guest:Now, like, so where'd you grow up?

00:16:04Guest:I grew up London, St.

00:16:06Guest:Louis, New York City.

00:16:07Guest:Yeah, I was born in London.

00:16:09Guest:My mother ran a dance company there, so I was born there.

00:16:12Guest:So you grew up in the dance world.

00:16:14Guest:I did.

00:16:14Guest:Modern dance, yeah.

00:16:17Guest:The snooty end of the dance world.

00:16:19Marc:Is that snooty?

00:16:19Marc:I thought ballet was snooty.

00:16:20Marc:I thought modern dance.

00:16:21Marc:Maybe it's snooty just to justify its existence.

00:16:25Guest:Exactly, yes.

00:16:26Guest:It's snooty in that way that certain factions of post-punk rockers in New York, you know what I mean?

00:16:33Guest:Sure, sure.

00:16:33Guest:No one knows we exist.

00:16:35Guest:F all of you.

00:16:36Guest:Right, it's not our fault you don't get it.

00:16:37Guest:Exactly.

00:16:39Guest:That's the kind of snooties.

00:16:40Guest:Not the kind of super high class, you know, going to the Met to watch Swan Lake.

00:16:44Marc:Well, how are you with modern dance?

00:16:45Marc:I mean, is it something that you've integrated into your appreciation spectrum?

00:16:50Marc:I love watching it.

00:16:51Guest:When I was three, my parents both made it clear that I was terrible at it and was absolutely not going to continue.

00:16:56Guest:Thank God.

00:16:57Guest:Yeah, which was a blessing and not a curse.

00:17:00Guest:It was just a blessing and a blessing.

00:17:02Marc:You could be one of those guys now like running a small company.

00:17:05Guest:Yes.

00:17:06Guest:I could have been in a unitard right now.

00:17:07Guest:Well, you wouldn't be interviewing me at all.

00:17:11Guest:So no, I was not going to do that.

00:17:13Guest:But I enjoy it.

00:17:14Guest:I mean, I like watching it.

00:17:15Guest:And I grew up with, my mother's company was pretty successful.

00:17:19Guest:So we grew up with a lot of- In England.

00:17:20Guest:Yeah, like Merce Cunningham and Twyla Thorpe and people like that were around my childhood.

00:17:25Marc:What is the basic premise of modern dance?

00:17:30Marc:I don't mean to pressure you on something that's abstract.

00:17:33Guest:Yeah, that's abstract and that I'm going to caveat.

00:17:35Guest:I am not.

00:17:36Guest:I mean, I know a lot about it.

00:17:38Marc:It's only because I think generally when I see people doing live things that seem to take a tremendous amount of risk and vulnerability, I'm moved by them.

00:17:48Marc:I don't always know why.

00:17:49Marc:And I think modern dance, there must be a series of steps in a kind of context that these are the things that you do.

00:17:59Marc:These are the things that you expect.

00:18:01Marc:Do you know what they are?

00:18:02Guest:Yeah, I think that the mindset of a modern dancer is almost like the avant-garde end of jazz.

00:18:08Guest:Oh, okay.

00:18:09Guest:You know, came up in the turn of the century, not that jazz did in the same way, but it came up turn of the century at a time where a lot of artists were trying to find new ways of expression.

00:18:18Guest:Yeah.

00:18:19Guest:And, you know, you had Isidore Duncan leading into Martha Graham and people who were really foraging for breaking out and away from the kind of classical classicist forms.

00:18:29Guest:Right, right, okay.

00:18:29Guest:So that's really – it's really an avant-garde form of dance.

00:18:33Guest:Is there a lot of improvising?

00:18:34Guest:Yeah.

00:18:34Guest:There's improvising and then there's a lot of sort of kind of abstract expression through movement.

00:18:40Guest:Yeah.

00:18:41Guest:Yeah.

00:18:41Guest:I get that.

00:18:41Guest:Yeah.

00:18:43Guest:So that's kind of what tends to draw people.

00:18:46Guest:Yeah.

00:18:46Guest:And that's why it's also very –

00:18:48Guest:You know, I grew up with none of my friends understanding, like my parents were like beyond weirdos.

00:18:53Guest:They were like, they were just like these weird.

00:18:55Marc:Like there's no level of making them understand what and why your parents did.

00:19:01Guest:Yeah.

00:19:01Guest:They're not just, you can't say they're hippies.

00:19:03Guest:They're like, oh, I get it.

00:19:04Guest:They're hippies or communists or something.

00:19:06Guest:Yeah.

00:19:07Guest:Just in this weird other nether region.

00:19:09Marc:Yeah, and I think the reason why modern dance is tricky is it rides that line of ridiculous.

00:19:15Marc:So it's very tricky to transcend the ridiculous.

00:19:19Guest:Yeah, I mean, there'd be times when I would go to Merce Cunningham concerts, not even that long ago, maybe 20 years ago at BAM, and it would be packed.

00:19:27Guest:And I've been around modern dance since I was born.

00:19:29Guest:I feel like I get it pretty well.

00:19:31Guest:And people would be like, oh, he would do this move with his wrist.

00:19:34Guest:People would be like, oh, oh, oh.

00:19:36Guest:I guarantee you that wasn't a joke, guys.

00:19:40Guest:I don't think the wrist thing was a joke.

00:19:43Guest:They thought it was cute.

00:19:44Guest:No, I just think they have no idea what they're watching, but want to feel like people know that they know what they're watching.

00:19:52Guest:Wild.

00:19:53Guest:There's a lot of that.

00:19:54Marc:So then just by virtue of them being in show business, you found yourself in show business?

00:20:00Guest:Yeah, kind of.

00:20:02Guest:I came up dancing and I was training from a really young age, dance and vocals.

00:20:07Guest:Singing?

00:20:08Guest:I liked singing.

00:20:09Guest:I liked all of that stuff.

00:20:10Guest:I started making films when I was really young, like seven, eight years old.

00:20:13Guest:Shooting them?

00:20:14Guest:Yeah, with a brownie camera.

00:20:17Guest:Oh, okay.

00:20:17Guest:Yeah, and reels and cutting them and things.

00:20:20Guest:So I loved the movies.

00:20:22Marc:So film was always kind of there.

00:20:23Marc:Yeah.

00:20:23Guest:Yeah, it was always there and I enjoyed it.

00:20:26Guest:They didn't push me into it because as modern dancers, they had sheer contempt for the sort of commercial end of the entertainment industry.

00:20:32Marc:Commercial, but you were doing avant-garde short films as a... Eventually, they liked those, yes.

00:20:37Guest:But I came up doing TV commercials and... Oh, acting in them.

00:20:40Guest:Yeah, and Broadway musicals.

00:20:42Marc:Well, you're speaking like they had no say in your life as an eight-year-old.

00:20:46Marc:You're like, you know, what are we going to do with this kid?

00:20:48Marc:He just keeps doing commercials.

00:20:49Guest:Yeah, or that they had any presence whatsoever.

00:20:55Guest:Absentee dancer parents?

00:20:59Guest:Yeah, there were latchkey kids, and then there's modern dance latchkey kids.

00:21:03Guest:Yeah, but what were they off doing?

00:21:05Guest:I mean, they had companies, and they were performing, and they were choreographing.

00:21:09Guest:Did you hang around the theater all the time?

00:21:11Guest:I did, yeah.

00:21:12Guest:That's how I ended up on.

00:21:13Guest:My mom taught dance at Wash U in St.

00:21:15Guest:Louis, and I would get thrown on stage, and then they realized I liked it, and then they realized I was okay at it.

00:21:19Guest:Then that turned into professional work.

00:21:22Guest:For musicals.

00:21:22Guest:Exactly.

00:21:23Guest:It went on from there.

00:21:24Guest:And then you were on Broadway as what?

00:21:25Guest:I was Lewis and the King and I with Yul Brynner for a while.

00:21:29Guest:And then we did it on the road and came out to Pantages.

00:21:31Marc:Pre-cancer Yul Brynner?

00:21:32Guest:Pre-cancer, yeah.

00:21:34Guest:Yeah.

00:21:34Guest:When I was 13.

00:21:35Guest:And he did smoke like an absolute chimney.

00:21:37Guest:Really?

00:21:37Guest:Yeah.

00:21:38Guest:That's something you remember.

00:21:40Guest:Yeah.

00:21:40Guest:Well, he had this, I mean, made you want to, he had this most beautiful like basso voice and you're like, I got to smoke five packs a day.

00:21:46Guest:I want that voice.

00:21:47Guest:And then he died.

00:21:48Guest:Yeah.

00:21:49Guest:And then I went right into Peter Pan with Sandy Duncan playing John Darling with the top hat and glasses.

00:21:55Guest:Oh yeah.

00:21:55Marc:Did you fly?

00:21:56Marc:I flew.

00:21:56Marc:Yeah.

00:21:57Marc:Yeah.

00:21:57Guest:So that's a good show a week.

00:21:59Guest:Yeah.

00:21:59Guest:For like three years, pretty much like all of high school was Peter Pan.

00:22:03Guest:So then I did some off Broadway and then I quit to go to film school.

00:22:07Guest:So I've quit acting like nine times over the course.

00:22:11Marc:Well, yeah, because it seems like if you if you look at your resume, it does seem pretty film direct directing focus now.

00:22:17Guest:Yeah.

00:22:17Guest:Oh, it is.

00:22:18Guest:Yeah.

00:22:18Guest:No, it's mostly.

00:22:19Guest:I've done, other than Bill and Ted 3 and a couple of other things, I've been almost completely focused on it.

00:22:24Marc:Bill and Ted 3?

00:22:25Marc:There's a 3?

00:22:25Guest:There is a 3, yeah.

00:22:27Guest:It came out during COVID.

00:22:28Guest:I do not fault you for not knowing about it.

00:22:30Guest:It did do very well, but it is a... Well, people love that movie.

00:22:33Guest:They do, yeah.

00:22:34Marc:What is the relationship?

00:22:34Marc:Now, maybe I'm completely out of my mind and I get things confused, but is there a relationship of Bill and Ted to O.C.

00:22:42Marc:and Stiggs?

00:22:43No.

00:22:43Guest:I don't know.

00:22:44Guest:I actually, I knew a couple of the guys in O.C.

00:22:46Guest:and Stiggs.

00:22:47Marc:Because that was based on a Lampoon thing.

00:22:49Guest:It was, yeah.

00:22:49Guest:And I think Robert Altman directed the first one.

00:22:51Guest:Yeah, no, Altman is O.C.

00:22:53Guest:and Stiggs for sure.

00:22:53Guest:I remember when they made it.

00:22:54Guest:In fact, I auditioned for that.

00:22:56Marc:Is it a similar thing or am I making that?

00:22:58Guest:No, it's only similar in that it's two guys.

00:23:02Guest:It's really, Bill and Ted really came out of two writers doing kind of stand-up as the characters.

00:23:08Guest:It was really kind of its own thing.

00:23:11Guest:But it came out at a time when it was in the ether.

00:23:14Guest:I think we were like, you know, you can get Osi and Stiggs and Spicoli from Fast Times and sort of other, you know, even Dobie Gillis, other cultural characters like that.

00:23:26Guest:Really?

00:23:26Guest:Dobie Gillis?

00:23:27Marc:Yeah, so I would throw that in.

00:23:29Guest:Go on the way back.

00:23:29Guest:I think it's all in the ether.

00:23:31Marc:So that was what was going on.

00:23:32Marc:That was what bro culture looked like.

00:23:35Marc:Yeah, that's what it looked like.

00:23:37Marc:Then.

00:23:37Marc:It was a little more harmless.

00:23:40Marc:There was more hacky sack and cargo shorts.

00:23:43Guest:Yeah, but we drove into it.

00:23:45Guest:I mean, Spicoli does too, but I think you had...

00:23:48Guest:You know, you had Wayne and Garth, which was much more of an SNL wink and a nod at the audience.

00:23:52Marc:Sure.

00:23:53Guest:Sure.

00:23:53Marc:But that seemed to be a riff on the idea of local access and rock dudes.

00:23:58Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:23:59Marc:I think it's quite a different thing.

00:24:01Marc:I think it would seem that, like, you know, Bill and Tad and Spicoli was a California thing.

00:24:06Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:24:07Marc:And Wayne and Garth definitely didn't seem California.

00:24:10Marc:They seemed middle America-ish.

00:24:12Guest:Yeah.

00:24:12Guest:And we're just two dopes who are very close friends.

00:24:15Guest:I mean, it's really conceptual.

00:24:16Guest:In real life?

00:24:17Guest:Well, we are.

00:24:17Guest:We became really close friends because the audition process was like a torture test.

00:24:21Guest:Really?

00:24:21Guest:It went on for so many months that we... Just for the first one?

00:24:24Marc:Yeah.

00:24:25Marc:That you and Keanu became close during that time?

00:24:27Marc:Long before we knew that we had the part.

00:24:30Guest:We both rode motorcycles.

00:24:31Guest:We both played bass guitar.

00:24:33Guest:So we both would jam on bass together, which is kind of parodic unto itself, if you think about it.

00:24:38Guest:How's he doing?

00:24:39Marc:Good.

00:24:40Marc:Really good.

00:24:40Marc:Yeah.

00:24:41Marc:He seems to have like really survived in the biggest of ways.

00:24:45Marc:You know, he works.

00:24:46Guest:I mean, you know this from being within the business.

00:24:48Guest:It's, it's.

00:24:49Guest:Barely.

00:24:50Guest:I'm, I'm just.

00:24:50Guest:No, that's, that is not true.

00:24:52Guest:Yeah.

00:24:52Guest:Um, the people who do do that, like I've noticed from having been around a long time.

00:24:57Guest:At that level?

00:24:57Guest:At that level are unrelentingly hardworking.

00:25:02Guest:Like they, he's very, very hardworking.

00:25:05Marc:I just watched River's Edge recently.

00:25:06Guest:So good.

00:25:07Marc:It is kind of good.

00:25:08Guest:One of my favorite performances of his, I think.

00:25:09Guest:Yeah.

00:25:10Marc:It must be, like, his first one.

00:25:11Marc:So it's a couple in, but yeah.

00:25:14Marc:And, like, it's sort of odd to watch it after having it affect me when I was younger.

00:25:18Marc:Yeah.

00:25:19Marc:I think I've been on a mild Dennis Hopper kick again.

00:25:22Guest:Oh, well, you could do much worse than that.

00:25:25Marc:But it's just interesting to sort of, like, assess Crispin Glover at that point.

00:25:30Marc:Yeah.

00:25:31Marc:And what he was doing was crazy.

00:25:33Guest:Yeah.

00:25:34Guest:I mean, people were freaking out.

00:25:37Guest:I knew Crispin pretty well back in the day, and we all had enormous admiration for him, but no one really understood what the hell he was doing.

00:25:47Guest:I think he's maintained that.

00:25:49Marc:He has, yeah.

00:25:50Marc:I haven't talked to him in a decade.

00:25:51Marc:I interviewed him, but he's one of those child actors in a way that sort of went into this zone, which is almost like modern dance.

00:26:01Marc:Yes.

00:26:01Marc:Like, you know, this sort of esoterica, mystical, kind of a gothic trip that he's on.

00:26:08Guest:And it's authentic to him, which is what I like about it.

00:26:10Guest:It's really who he is.

00:26:11Marc:Yeah, I don't know that anyone would pretend to do that.

00:26:14Guest:It's not like... Well, maybe it's a shtick for a minute, like that weird Joaquin Phoenix documentary he made where he...

00:26:19Guest:Tend to be a rapper like that kind of thing when an actor.

00:26:22Marc:No, he seems pretty committed to it.

00:26:24Marc:Yeah.

00:26:25Marc:But but yeah, Keanu, I don't you know, it's just one of these dudes that he seems pretty accessible.

00:26:32Marc:Yeah.

00:26:32Marc:But he's bigger than the world.

00:26:34Guest:Yeah.

00:26:35Guest:It's trippy.

00:26:35Guest:And I think it's probably trippy for him.

00:26:37Guest:You know, because there is the duality of your public life and your private life.

00:26:41Marc:Well, you got it.

00:26:42Marc:Like, I realized that one time—who was I talking to?

00:26:44Marc:Jeff Kahn.

00:26:45Marc:And I've noticed it when I was younger at the comedy store that you get to a certain level where, you know, you—

00:26:52Marc:You may have a few good friends, but, you know, generally you can only hang out with people at that level.

00:26:57Marc:Yeah.

00:26:57Marc:So there are these weird pairings.

00:26:59Marc:Yeah, that's right.

00:27:00Marc:You know, like you just see people hanging out.

00:27:02Marc:It's like, why is Lance Armstrong, you know, hanging out with, you know, Keanu Reeves or whatever?

00:27:07Guest:Yeah, it's true.

00:27:08Marc:Because like, where else are you going to hang out with?

00:27:10Marc:Where can they go?

00:27:11Guest:Yeah.

00:27:12Guest:Jeff wasn't freaked.

00:27:13Guest:He was nosy in our movie, Freaked.

00:27:14Guest:Jeff Kahn?

00:27:15Guest:Yeah.

00:27:15Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:27:16Guest:How's he doing?

00:27:17Guest:I think he's a teacher now.

00:27:18Guest:I think so, yeah.

00:27:19Guest:I haven't seen him in a long time.

00:27:20Guest:He's really good in that, though, but he has a giant headpiece on the whole thing.

00:27:24Guest:Yeah, he's a funny guy.

00:27:25Guest:He is, really funny.

00:27:26Marc:So, with the acting, what is it that makes you go in and out?

00:27:32Marc:I like... Is it not satisfying?

00:27:35Guest:No, it's very satisfying, but I like the creative expression of actually telling stories.

00:27:41Guest:I love crafting stories in film.

00:27:43Guest:Yeah.

00:27:43Guest:Primarily.

00:27:44Guest:Yeah.

00:27:44Guest:And that's just immensely satisfying for me.

00:27:46Guest:I love research.

00:27:47Guest:I love writing.

00:27:49Guest:But on the docs, I love the topical aspect of it and research aspect of it and and telling stories with with real people.

00:27:56Guest:Yeah.

00:27:57Guest:I mean, you know, something you get from from the work you've done with this over the years is it's there's really nothing like talking eyeball to eyeball with a really interesting person.

00:28:07Guest:Yeah.

00:28:07Marc:Yeah.

00:28:07Marc:If you give them enough time, you know, you can what I've noticed over the years is that, you know, people like if you give people enough time, even if they're obfuscating, you get a sense of who they are.

00:28:23Guest:Well, that's exactly it with docs.

00:28:25Guest:And that's why I don't make gotcha docs.

00:28:27Guest:Like even the one I just did on YouTube is, you know, not only do I have a kind of a base level, maybe to a fault compassion for pretty much anybody, unless they're just a monster and I'm not usually interviewing monsters.

00:28:38Guest:Yeah.

00:28:38Guest:But also they're going to reveal their non-answer is a great answer.

00:28:43Guest:Sure.

00:28:44Guest:Or even their lies.

00:28:45Guest:I was about to say, or their flat out untrue answer is a great answer.

00:28:49Guest:I like revealing that.

00:28:50Guest:You linger on them and let the audience sort of sit with a non-answer or a false answer.

00:28:55Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:28:56Guest:I think there's a lot of power in that.

00:28:57Marc:Oh, of course.

00:28:58Marc:And then when you juxtapose it against the other side of things, I think that the doxy doer, and people will argue with me, and I've argued with doc makers, that some people believe it is an auteur's genre, whereas the other side of the journalistic approach is that it's not.

00:29:15Guest:Yeah, and I think that my argument on it, right or wrong, is that I think it's actually more artistic and more, I wouldn't necessarily say auteuristic, because docs are very collaborative.

00:29:26Guest:They just are.

00:29:27Guest:Right.

00:29:27Guest:I mean, you're building them with your editor.

00:29:29Marc:A lot of doc directors will integrate themselves into it in a big way.

00:29:33Marc:I intentionally do not do that.

00:29:35Marc:Right.

00:29:35Marc:To me, that's more journalistic.

00:29:37Marc:Right.

00:29:38Marc:That's true.

00:29:39Marc:Yes, that is true.

00:29:39Guest:I'm going to go get the story.

00:29:41Guest:Right.

00:29:41Marc:Whereas, like, these guys are like, I'm going in, you know.

00:29:44Guest:Yeah.

00:29:46Guest:I think you want to keep things fairly balanced.

00:29:48Guest:I think the art of it or the truth of it comes out of not slathering it with your point of view.

00:29:55Guest:I think you get more, there's more nuance there.

00:29:58Marc:Sure.

00:29:58Marc:Well, I mean, then you let the story unfold and then if you could sort of end it, like even the new one, or not the new one, I watched a YouTube one, but I noticed in the...

00:30:07Marc:the deep web one, is that right at the very end, you know, you sort of, you really see both sides of it, but you also understand both sides of it, and it becomes a little tricky to pick sides.

00:30:21Marc:Right.

00:30:22Marc:That, you know, the complaint of the limitation of the defense's ability within the context of the trial was really just straight up, you know,

00:30:33Marc:that was just trial law, really.

00:30:35Marc:Yes.

00:30:36Marc:This idea that the conspiracy to sort of kneecap the defense by denying them a certain type of questioning with...

00:30:48Marc:the prosecutor's witnesses was within the context of legal understanding.

00:30:55Marc:And then you're sort of like, well, he did something.

00:30:59Marc:Yeah, of course he did.

00:31:00Guest:Yeah.

00:31:01Guest:And that's my favorite kind of doc, ideally, and my favorite kind of subject.

00:31:05Guest:That's why I liked Zappa, because it's not, it is polarizing, but not in a kind of

00:31:10Marc:gimmicky way well i talked that that doc up because i i've been sort of fascinated with zappa over the years yeah and i dated moon for like six months who's amazing yeah and i heard dweezil on your show as well which was great right but that caused problems you know obviously you know i had dweezil on and ahmed's like what about my side i don't i'm not in a war that i don't want to be in the zappa war exactly 12 people

00:31:32Guest:Yeah, that's why you'll notice none of the kids are in the talk because I didn't want to step into that fracas.

00:31:37Guest:But you got a permission, right?

00:31:39Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:31:40Guest:We had complete permission from everybody and most importantly from Gail and the trust.

00:31:45Marc:So you started that before she passed away?

00:31:46Marc:I started before she passed, yeah.

00:31:48Guest:And do you know how all the kids felt about it?

00:31:51Guest:I don't know what Dweezil thought about it, but Moon sent me a really lovely email saying how much she liked it, which actually was very heartwarming for me because I've been an admirer of her since I was very young.

00:32:01Guest:Right, yeah.

00:32:02Guest:And then I know that, you know, Ahmet and Diva loved it.

00:32:05Guest:But I, you know, I don't know how Dweezil thinks about it.

00:32:07Guest:I lost touch with them when Gail died.

00:32:08Guest:As the world now knows, you know, there was a...

00:32:12Guest:a very disruptive break within the family based on, on things going on within the estate.

00:32:18Guest:Yeah.

00:32:19Guest:And, uh, so I lost touch with him at that point.

00:32:20Guest:I was talking to him up until then.

00:32:22Guest:And I don't look, I get it.

00:32:23Guest:Part of why I made that film was I grew up in a very, you know, I said this to moon very, the very beginning.

00:32:29Guest:And when I started working on it was like, this was very similar to my upbringing.

00:32:32Marc:Insulated and weird.

00:32:34Guest:Weird.

00:32:35Guest:Its own world.

00:32:36Guest:Yeah, its own world.

00:32:37Guest:And the parents, your parents are super interesting, but maybe not the most present parents.

00:32:41Guest:Sure.

00:32:41Guest:And you kind of are fending for yourself and you love them, but they're also problematic.

00:32:46Guest:Yeah.

00:32:47Guest:And it was a way for me to kind of reconcile my own childhood experiences.

00:32:50Marc:a little bit.

00:32:51Marc:Well, do you find, like, in that childhood, because I think about my childhood not in show business, but in dealing with selfish parents, did you feel that they, you know, dropped the ball in terms of, like, taking care of you or protecting you?

00:33:04Guest:Not to quote your own recent show, but, you know, one of my parents is still alive and we get along very well, and I don't know how deep I want to go into it while she's around.

00:33:14Guest:Sure, sure.

00:33:14Guest:My father passed many years ago.

00:33:16Guest:Yeah.

00:33:18Guest:And the short answer is yes.

00:33:20Yeah.

00:33:22Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:22Guest:Now that I've caveated the hell out of that.

00:33:24Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:25Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, it is odd.

00:33:28Guest:It's tricky, right?

00:33:29Guest:Making art and the question of I'm going to make art and all that that takes and the pressure and the stress and the challenges.

00:33:36Guest:And, oh, I've got kids.

00:33:38Guest:Yeah.

00:33:38Guest:And I love them, but... But you do it.

00:33:41Guest:Yeah, but I have...

00:33:43Guest:I won't put a butt in front of it.

00:33:45Guest:I do do it, and I have arranged my life specifically to be there most of the time.

00:33:52Marc:Which takes work.

00:33:53Marc:But I think that at the time of your parents, and certainly at the time of Zappa, these were people that believed, and I think rightfully so, that they were forging some new frontier of form and art that was probably true.

00:34:08Marc:You know, because you really think about like even the context of modern dance, you know, its evolution, its creation happened in your parents' lifetime.

00:34:17Marc:Yeah.

00:34:17Marc:So there was this urgency to it.

00:34:19Guest:An urgency.

00:34:19Guest:And, you know, and I have to say, and this is what I dug into with Zappa.

00:34:22Guest:I had nobody was above my parents in my admiration.

00:34:26Guest:Like nobody.

00:34:27Guest:I just was blown away by what they were doing.

00:34:29Guest:My mother had the first modern dance company in Europe at like 19, 20 years old.

00:34:34Guest:Yeah.

00:34:34Guest:And my dad created the first modern dance company in the Midwest and then would tour around the Midwest when in states where, in cities where movement was illegal.

00:34:42Guest:It was like footloose, right?

00:34:44Guest:And my dad was really interesting and he was gay and he was like.

00:34:48Guest:When did that happen?

00:34:49Guest:I mean, prettier.

00:34:51Guest:My parents divorced when I was seven, eight years old.

00:34:53Guest:Yeah.

00:34:53Guest:And he came up in an agrarian Australian family where that, he would have been taken out back and murdered if they knew.

00:35:00Guest:So, so they were really, they were,

00:35:04Guest:They were champions in my mind.

00:35:06Marc:So did your mom know all along?

00:35:08Guest:I think it became more, I think it was like, again, it was the seventies.

00:35:12Guest:They were modern dancers.

00:35:13Guest:So there was a lot of fluidity.

00:35:14Guest:Now we're in this world.

00:35:15Guest:We're like, oh, trans.

00:35:16Guest:I'm like, I grew up with trans all over around and gender fluidity was not uncommon in my household and childhood.

00:35:23Guest:So I think it was like, oh, this is all groovy until it wasn't groovy.

00:35:27Marc:Yeah.

00:35:28Marc:Well, right.

00:35:28Marc:Yeah.

00:35:29Marc:The crash.

00:35:29Marc:Yeah.

00:35:30Marc:Yeah.

00:35:30Marc:The whole I think the entire the weird thing is, is that and I don't think it's really covered specifically in your doc, but it seems to be, you know, just under the surface in culture is that, you know, the crashing of that mindset in the 60s, whatever happened.

00:35:45Marc:Yeah.

00:35:46Marc:In the 70s.

00:35:47Guest:Yeah.

00:35:47Marc:Right.

00:35:48Marc:Yeah.

00:35:48Guest:That's what that's all about.

00:35:49Guest:Yeah.

00:35:49Marc:It is.

00:35:50Marc:And also Manson and Altamon are sort of like culturally in terms of how it was represented in what was the news then.

00:35:59Guest:And the irrefutable death of the dream.

00:36:00Guest:Like there's just no going back.

00:36:02Guest:Yeah.

00:36:02Marc:And it was it was really drugs that did it and egos.

00:36:06Marc:But ultimately what's happening in the country now is is still it's the arc of the desired pushback against that.

00:36:13Marc:Yeah.

00:36:13Marc:Against the New Deal and against, you know, what was seen as socialism or free thinking.

00:36:20Marc:Yes.

00:36:21Marc:Of that time.

00:36:21Marc:Yeah.

00:36:22Marc:And now we're in fascism.

00:36:24Marc:We're on the cusp of it.

00:36:25Marc:Yeah.

00:36:26Marc:Because of that.

00:36:27Marc:It offended so deeply the conservative movement that their entire agenda for the last 30 years is to sort of like nip that in the bud.

00:36:37Guest:Yeah, stack the court with justices that will do their bidding.

00:36:40Guest:I mean, that started back with Atwater and Robe.

00:36:41Marc:But it was all the hippies in the New Deal.

00:36:43Marc:This is what they're still pissed off about.

00:36:45Guest:It is, yeah.

00:36:45Marc:Alito is like this little baby who just from the get-go, because he's a boomer.

00:36:50Marc:So right in the 60s, he was like, you know, fuck these hippies and gay guys.

00:36:53Marc:You know, what the hell's going on?

00:36:55Marc:And now he's a guy.

00:36:56Guest:I know, yeah.

00:36:57Guest:Top of the world, Ma.

00:36:58Guest:It's crazy.

00:36:58Guest:It is, it's terrifying.

00:37:00Marc:But going back to sort of like also the ideas of...

00:37:05Marc:you know, what you grew up with and then coming into these docs, like, well, the Zappa thing, why did you take that one?

00:37:10Guest:Because it really represented, oftentimes I get pulled to docs either by an incredible personal affinity for it, like Napster, which was my first doc.

00:37:21Guest:This kid, the Sean Fanny kid, I was around very deep into Napster when it blew up.

00:37:26Guest:You thought it was amazing.

00:37:27Guest:I thought it was amazing.

00:37:28Guest:I knew it had ethical issues.

00:37:29Guest:I wasn't an idiot.

00:37:31Guest:Ethical issues business-wise.

00:37:32Guest:Yeah, obviously.

00:37:33Guest:And artists... And artists rights-wise.

00:37:35Guest:Compensation rights.

00:37:36Guest:Exactly.

00:37:36Guest:Yeah, and I'm an artist, so I was affected by it, so I wasn't snickering about it, but it was an amazing thing.

00:37:42Marc:That snicker is important because it is a subtext of all the other later docs.

00:37:48Marc:The snicker of the nerd that wins is sort of... It is.

00:37:52Marc:It is.

00:37:52Guest:Yeah, it's true.

00:37:53Guest:But that's not necessarily always a good thing.

00:37:56Guest:No, no.

00:37:57Guest:It's a bad thing.

00:37:57Guest:Yeah, but Fanning was such a sweet... You know, he came from a terrible childhood and, like, you know, DSS around him and living in motels and, like, very Dickensian upbringing and just wanted to bring... He wanted to bring community together.

00:38:10Guest:Right.

00:38:11Guest:And he did it...

00:38:11Guest:in a way that completely changed the world and then was just completely vilified and hit in the public eye.

00:38:18Guest:And I've just related very much to like getting public scrutiny too early when your sort of childhood doesn't really prep you for it.

00:38:25Marc:And also having some sort of emotional trauma.

00:38:28Marc:Exactly, yeah.

00:38:29Marc:Like, driven by, like, I deal with this stuff a lot now, and I don't know what your personal investigations are, but I'm at an age where I'm not looking back nostalgically, but I'm trying to answer questions in terms of, you know, why am I like this still?

00:38:44Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:38:45Guest:No, that involves, for me, that can involve a couple different therapists a week, but yes, agreed.

00:38:50Marc:Yeah.

00:38:50Guest:So, you know, it's kind of a reckoning.

00:38:52Marc:Well, how do you stand, like, where do you feel about that?

00:38:54Marc:Because I'm, like, just in a personal sense...

00:38:58Marc:That they're like the one thing you don't seem to be.

00:39:01Marc:And I think it is something about determination or something about the good things we got from our parents is that either you live in a victim mindset or you live in a mindset that has assimilated or repressed whatever it is that you came through.

00:39:16Marc:But you never once, you know, let it undermine your entire life emotionally otherwise.

00:39:21Guest:Yeah, I think that you hit your late 50s and you've either done a bunch of, and are still doing hopefully, but you've done a bunch of work on yourself or you haven't.

00:39:30Guest:And I think that if you haven't, it can be very tricky because who doesn't have childhood trauma?

00:39:37Guest:Who doesn't?

00:39:37Guest:Well, that's an interesting thing, right?

00:39:39Marc:And also, I'm starting to believe that most of the cultural and problems of humanity are primarily from unresolved trauma.

00:39:49Marc:Yeah.

00:39:49Marc:And the thing is, is that, you know, what is trauma?

00:39:52Marc:And to some people, what is psychology?

00:39:55Guest:Right.

00:39:55Guest:That's right.

00:39:56Guest:Yeah, it's true.

00:39:56Guest:It's a good point.

00:39:57Guest:Right.

00:39:57Marc:So, you know, psychology is just a template for understanding.

00:40:02Marc:Like when you really think about philosophy, psychology, theology, it's like there's no science to any of that shit.

00:40:07Marc:Yeah, that's right.

00:40:08Marc:You have to have faith in it.

00:40:10Guest:Right.

00:40:10Marc:And you have to find the strands of like, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy seems to be like the one that seems scientific almost.

00:40:18Marc:Yeah.

00:40:19Marc:It's like, don't do that.

00:40:20Marc:That's right.

00:40:21Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:40:22Guest:Yeah.

00:40:23Guest:Yeah.

00:40:23Guest:You're hurting people.

00:40:24Guest:You're hurting yourself.

00:40:25Guest:Maybe don't do that.

00:40:26Marc:Stop dead.

00:40:26Marc:Practice not doing that.

00:40:28Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:40:29Guest:On a regular basis.

00:40:30Guest:And maybe that voice will become louder than the other thing.

00:40:33Guest:Yeah.

00:40:33Guest:I mean, it's habit forming.

00:40:34Guest:If you do start to do the work, it does form habits, but it's work.

00:40:38Guest:That's right.

00:40:38Guest:Of course.

00:40:39Marc:But the scary thing to me is that like with, with the onset of fascism is that, you know, that whole conversation is gone.

00:40:46Marc:Like I'm trying to work on this bit on stage where I'm like, it used to be once you acknowledge or realize that you're an asshole, that was a proactive step to maybe stopping it.

00:40:56Marc:Right.

00:40:56Marc:Now it's just sort of like, nope.

00:40:57Marc:Yeah.

00:40:58Guest:Off I go.

00:40:58Marc:Yeah.

00:40:59Yeah.

00:40:59Marc:Thank God I know who I am now.

00:41:01Guest:It's free speech.

00:41:02Guest:I should be able to be who I want to be.

00:41:04Guest:Right.

00:41:04Guest:Yeah.

00:41:05Guest:There are laws protecting this.

00:41:07Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:41:08Guest:I'm going to double down on the ass on this.

00:41:10Guest:There's nothing wrong with me.

00:41:11Guest:Yeah.

00:41:12Guest:You put a gun in the Second Amendment with that, and then you're off to the races.

00:41:16Guest:Oh, my God, man.

00:41:16Marc:man i can't like i like sometimes i really can't like it's it's very tricky because you know we live in this this thing and there you know and i'm i'm trying to put into place some sort of plan yeah to where i can avoid you know showing up in another country as a refugee yeah and maybe have some rite of passage yeah i have a british passport and and even though the uk is a mess right now as well i'm still like well i could go to scotland but but the the thing about the weird thing about the uk is that it's an ancient mess it is it's

00:41:46Marc:Like, you know, like when you think of America, it's like we're barely born.

00:41:49Marc:But, you know, like, you know, you go to England or anywhere in Europe, it's like this wall is from before Jesus.

00:41:56Marc:That's true.

00:41:57Marc:Yeah.

00:41:57Guest:And they're all fairly resigned and sort of, eh, we can live with this.

00:42:01Guest:Kind of for a while.

00:42:02Guest:Yeah.

00:42:02Marc:We don't have that kind of optimism, but in getting further down the line into some of the other docs, you know, you start to realize there's, well, we'll get to that.

00:42:10Marc:So what you're saying is that what engaged you about Zappa is that it was, again, a way, not unlike showbiz kids, to sort of play out your own experience.

00:42:19Guest:Yeah, I came at a time sort of circling back to what you just said that I came at a time in my life in my 50 early 50s when I was dealing with a lot of unpacking my childhood and my parents and my own trauma and my own upbringing and Zappa.

00:42:34Guest:And I love them.

00:42:35Guest:And I was like, what made them tick?

00:42:37Guest:Like like they were so intent on doing the art they were doing at a time when.

00:42:41Guest:eventually you had Reagan killing the arts and killing the NEA, and it was anathema to be, I mean, an artist, much less a modern dancer.

00:42:49Guest:And then Zappa had always intrigued me because he was paradoxical.

00:42:53Guest:I liked some of his politics.

00:42:55Guest:I didn't like others.

00:42:56Guest:He was sexually craven, and yet he was really forward-thinking.

00:43:01Guest:He had these kids who he seemed to really love and spend time with, and yet he didn't.

00:43:05Marc:And so I found so many- It felt like they were all hostages.

00:43:09Marc:Yeah.

00:43:09Marc:In this house where, like, I remember, like, he would pipe that music that he was doing in the basement through the house, like, all day long.

00:43:19Guest:And the cigarette smoke.

00:43:20Guest:But yeah, exactly.

00:43:21Guest:So, I mean, and that was like, all the pictures I have of myself as a child, either with my mother pregnant with me, she has a cigarette in one hand, a glass of whiskey in the other, five years old cigarette, seven years old cigarette.

00:43:31Marc:Right.

00:43:32Marc:But getting back to the idea that, you know, as a grown up, I imagine you and not so much me.

00:43:36Marc:I didn't come from, you know, my mother painted, but she wasn't on the cutting edge of anything.

00:43:41Marc:But, you know, it's it's irrefutable that, you know, the community that your folks were involved with and Zappa in and of himself and whatever he was sort of spearheading was truly revolutionary.

00:43:52Guest:Yeah, that's the thing is I had utmost admiration for them and I had a lot of admiration for Zappa.

00:43:58Guest:So it allowed me kind of a way in to try to get my head around what made people like that tick.

00:44:04Guest:And also their own trials and tribulations at that time, like the real granular challenges of trying to forge ahead in the arts at that period of time.

00:44:14Marc:Well, yeah.

00:44:15Marc:And like, you know, I go like when I was trying to wrap my brain around Zappa and, you know, it's ongoing.

00:44:21Marc:Yeah.

00:44:21Marc:Because, you know, there's something about the mystique of Frank where you're sort of like, you know, every one of these albums has got to be a genius thing.

00:44:29Marc:And like he was really doing something.

00:44:30Marc:But ultimately, you know, it's it's a lot of noodling, but it's a lot of, you know, he was writing, you know, he was a composer.

00:44:39Marc:Yeah.

00:44:39Marc:And there's just sort of this arc to it all, but it is sort of a deep... I always wondered, I remember years ago I asked a friend of mine who's in music management, I'm like, is Zappa, do they make money?

00:44:51Marc:Because does anybody like Zappa?

00:44:52Marc:And my friend said, look, if you have a bin at the record store with your name on it, you're making money.

00:44:57Marc:You're making money, yeah.

00:44:59Guest:Yeah, and he was always experimenting.

00:45:02Guest:I mean, he was, I think that, like, that's what I discovered when I saw the vault, which we started to digitize and preserve.

00:45:08Guest:And then went down the stairs, down the basement?

00:45:09Guest:Yeah, went down the stairs.

00:45:10Guest:The old studio?

00:45:11Guest:It went on and on and on, floor to ceiling, massive, very well organized.

00:45:14Marc:I was so lucky to go to that house once.

00:45:16Marc:Oh, it was amazing.

00:45:17Marc:That place was so great.

00:45:18Marc:The only problem is I was given a tour of it by Moon, and it was me and Moby, which kind of was a buzzkill.

00:45:25Marc:Moby was a buzzkill.

00:45:26Marc:He kept touching everything.

00:45:27Marc:Oh, God.

00:45:29Guest:Anointing everything.

00:45:31Guest:Yeah.

00:45:31Marc:You'd get on the drum set.

00:45:32Marc:I'm like, dude, have some respect.

00:45:34Marc:Get off the piano, man.

00:45:36Marc:Yeah.

00:45:37Guest:But I realized when I was working on the vault that it was even his archive, it wasn't his ego thing.

00:45:42Guest:And it wasn't like I must preserve.

00:45:44Guest:It was an act of conceptual art unto itself.

00:45:47Guest:So I think he was like Prince.

00:45:49Guest:I think he just always was creating.

00:45:51Guest:So obviously everything wasn't going to be great.

00:45:53Marc:I wish I was like that because me, I'm cooking, you know, I'm fixing a thing.

00:45:56Marc:I know that the energy could be going elsewhere.

00:45:58Guest:Exactly.

00:45:59Marc:But it's something sometimes it's just not as satisfying as, you know, making some beans.

00:46:02Marc:Yeah, I'm with you.

00:46:05Guest:And there's something compulsive.

00:46:06Guest:I don't want to take away from those people, but there's something compulsive about like, I must make music 24 seven.

00:46:11Marc:Yeah, man.

00:46:13Marc:It's like Hendrix too.

00:46:14Marc:Yeah.

00:46:14Marc:I mean, you know, like they're like, it's like every year there's new Hendrix material.

00:46:18Marc:The guy died at 27.

00:46:19Marc:Yeah.

00:46:20Marc:It's ridiculous.

00:46:21Marc:What the fuck was he doing?

00:46:22Marc:Yeah.

00:46:22Marc:Never sleeping and just playing all the time.

00:46:24Guest:Well, I think probably.

00:46:25Guest:Yeah.

00:46:25Marc:But Zappa, like, you know, it's one of these things, like, I've been noticing lately, too, about going back and, like I said, not being nostalgic, but realizing that a lot of my opinions were put in place when I was too young to really understand what I was talking about.

00:46:42Marc:And I was arrogant and pseudo-intellectual.

00:46:45Guest:So, like, I have to go back.

00:46:47Guest:Every single interview of me up until, well, I had about 40, but yeah.

00:46:51Guest:Yeah.

00:46:51Marc:But now I'm sort of like reassessing things or really assessing things for the first time thanks to Criterion Channel, which I think is like a great tool if you were like a snooty film nerd in your 20s to sort of like, did you really get that movie?

00:47:06Marc:And I go back and I watched it.

00:47:07Marc:I'm like, I didn't even know what it was about.

00:47:09Marc:Yeah, no, I probably slept through half of it.

00:47:11Marc:Yeah, or had these opinions that were ridiculous.

00:47:13Marc:But Zappa, the genius of him and also the reckoning with him is that it never ends.

00:47:19Marc:Yeah.

00:47:20Marc:And his commitment to things, like some of the footage of him conducting later in his life, was kind of like really spectacular because I don't know that he gave a fuck if anybody liked it.

00:47:31Guest:No, I really, truly, truly do not think he did.

00:47:34Guest:I think it's a real error to assume that he wasn't commercial because he was afraid of commercial success, which is a theory some people had.

00:47:41Guest:Yeah.

00:47:41Marc:No, but he, like, he kicked out.

00:47:43Guest:Like, Joe's Garage was huge.

00:47:45Guest:It was huge.

00:47:45Guest:And if he went on tour, he was playing massive.

00:47:47Guest:I mean, he was, as you know, from, like, when I was a kid, everyone had a poster of Zappa.

00:47:51Marc:Zappa Crappa.

00:47:52Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:47:53Guest:The one on the toilet.

00:47:54Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:54Marc:Yeah.

00:47:55Marc:Right, but, like, I think he was just, like, this mythic being.

00:47:58Guest:Yeah.

00:47:59Marc:He had a look.

00:48:00Marc:Yeah.

00:48:00Marc:But he also had like an army of true nerds.

00:48:04Marc:He did.

00:48:04Marc:Who dug him.

00:48:05Marc:Yeah.

00:48:06Guest:And do every single guitar solo on every single track.

00:48:09Guest:Right.

00:48:09Marc:And I think, and Dweezil does too.

00:48:12Guest:Yeah, he does.

00:48:13Marc:I've watched Dweezil do an entire album.

00:48:15Marc:Yeah.

00:48:15Marc:That's his bag.

00:48:16Marc:Yeah.

00:48:17Marc:But also, like, the hits were goofy.

00:48:20Marc:And I'm sure that on some level, he resented the people that came in because of Sheik Your Booty more than he liked them.

00:48:26Marc:Yeah, for sure.

00:48:27Marc:I'm sure he did.

00:48:28Marc:Dancing fool.

00:48:30Marc:Like, you don't get it, you know?

00:48:32Marc:Right, but you listen to like, you know, like Reuben and the Jets.

00:48:35Marc:Yeah.

00:48:36Marc:Like, you know, that thing he does where he basically apes all of the Laurel Canyon.

00:48:40Marc:Oh, that.

00:48:41Marc:I think it was.

00:48:43Marc:Wasn't that on Reuben where he literally does.

00:48:44Marc:Yeah, he does that a lot.

00:48:45Marc:Like whatever was going on down the street from him.

00:48:49Marc:Like Crosby, Stills, and Nash are the doors.

00:48:51Marc:Yeah, he hated all that.

00:48:52Marc:Yeah, and he just mocks it.

00:48:53Guest:But he mocks it perfectly.

00:48:54Guest:And it's like, oh, my God.

00:48:55Guest:Hated Bill Graham.

00:48:56Guest:Hated the hippies.

00:48:57Guest:Hated the San Francisco scene.

00:48:58Marc:And people lumped him with them, but it was not his trip, man.

00:49:02Guest:Yeah.

00:49:02Guest:And he was not a drug guy.

00:49:03Guest:No, that's the thing.

00:49:04Guest:I saw that VU documentary and like they're talking about him.

00:49:07Guest:It was Mo Tucker who'd lost her mind by then anyway, but talking about him being a hippie.

00:49:11Guest:And it's like, it's just betrays such a complete lack of understanding.

00:49:13Guest:Yeah.

00:49:13Marc:No, he was like literally in his own weird way on the other side of the spectrum from a conservative saying, get these hippies out of my yard.

00:49:21Marc:Because they're in his house.

00:49:22Marc:Yeah.

00:49:23Guest:But he didn't have a tolerance for it.

00:49:24Guest:No, none.

00:49:25Guest:I mean, there's a famous story of him going to New York in the late 60s and being at a show where Nico was playing piano.

00:49:31Guest:Yeah.

00:49:31Guest:And when she got up at the interval, he got up and imitated her entire set almost perfectly, but then just making fun of her voice and parodying her.

00:49:40Marc:Yeah, he was brutal.

00:49:41Guest:Yeah, they hated him.

00:49:42Marc:But I didn't know all that stuff about them having that residency in the theater and stuff.

00:49:46Marc:Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?

00:49:48Marc:Yeah, man.

00:49:49Marc:And also, I get really obsessed with this sort of beef heart Zappa feud.

00:49:55Marc:Yeah.

00:49:55Marc:Well, it wasn't a feud, but it would clearly to me, you know, after learning the history before your documentary, that Van Vliet, is that his name?

00:50:04Guest:Van Vliet.

00:50:05Guest:What's his first name again?

00:50:06Marc:Don.

00:50:06Marc:Don Van Vliet.

00:50:08Marc:Well, they were friends.

00:50:08Marc:They were like childhood friends.

00:50:10Marc:Super close friends.

00:50:11Marc:And Zappa, in terms of

00:50:13Marc:what informed his music later.

00:50:15Marc:The humanness of his sense of humor and also, you know, the goofiness, I think, was all because of the relationship with them.

00:50:22Guest:There's no doubt in my mind that that's true.

00:50:24Guest:And I've actually thought about trying to do a doc on, if not just Beefheart, in terms of that relationship on the both of them.

00:50:29Guest:But the two best friends who formed their musical...

00:50:32Guest:interest and passion together, literally.

00:50:35Marc:Yeah, because like he was like, you know, when you see like Zappa's influences and all the sort of noise music weirdos and him playing, earnestly playing a bicycle on the Steve Allen show.

00:50:46Marc:Yeah.

00:50:46Marc:Like, you know, if I believed that that was a prank, I would be like, he was way ahead of it.

00:50:50Marc:But I think he was sort of serious.

00:50:52Marc:I think he was too.

00:50:52Marc:And it took Beefheart, you know, the infusion of Beefheart and the infusion of sort of this goofy, you know, blues sensibility to inform Frank to sort of like, dude, you know, get down on the ground here.

00:51:04Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:51:05Marc:Yeah.

00:51:06Guest:Play for the people.

00:51:07Guest:Yeah, 100%.

00:51:08Guest:I think that there's no Zappa without Beefheart, no Beefheart without Zappa.

00:51:12Guest:And I also think that while the feud is all you hear about, that they actually— I don't even know about the feud.

00:51:17Guest:Well, you know, it's really rock nerd, you know.

00:51:20Guest:It's deep dive rabbit hole rock nerd land.

00:51:24Guest:But I think they really did love each other all the way through their lives.

00:51:28Guest:And they just had a problematic relationship.

00:51:29Guest:They were very problematic people in their own right.

00:51:32Guest:So you put them together and it was just like dynamite.

00:51:34Guest:Well, I just love that they grew up there out in the desert by that Air Force base.

00:51:38Marc:I think their dads were both engineers or something.

00:51:40Marc:I can't remember.

00:51:41Guest:Yeah.

00:51:41Guest:yeah well his i think don's dad drove like a bread truck or something but but uh zappa's dad was and uh and they just spun records listened to blues and drank you know because all those early hours the beef heart records like the first two it's just the howling wolf yeah that's really and that's his voice is just yeah it's a pure and just a goofball thing of it yeah and it's so funny because when i when i uh got to know moon she's like don taught me how to drive oh really

00:52:05Guest:That's terrifying.

00:52:06Marc:It's great.

00:52:07Guest:Yeah, it is.

00:52:08Guest:Yeah.

00:52:08Marc:So, okay.

00:52:09Marc:So that was the, I thought you did a really good job with it and it was very informative.

00:52:12Marc:And to me, you know, given like, you know, what we're seeing, you know, as we move through the other docs, the YouTube doc in particular is that, you know, once context is destroyed and that the context becomes the platform and that, you know, like I did a joke years ago and I still sort of do it.

00:52:32Marc:that you're going to eventually hear some kids say, like, Hitler was the guy with the mustache, right?

00:52:37Marc:Right.

00:52:38Marc:Oh, God, yeah.

00:52:39Guest:That's true.

00:52:40Guest:Right.

00:52:40Marc:And that's what happens when you don't have a historical narrative or historical context, that putting Zappa into context for anybody who wants to take it in is important because all this stuff gets lost as art becomes...

00:52:55Marc:Irrelevant culturally.

00:52:57Marc:Yes, that's right.

00:52:58Marc:And it's a problem.

00:53:00Marc:Yeah.

00:53:01Marc:But then sometimes I'm like, is that just a generational thing?

00:53:04Guest:Yeah.

00:53:04Marc:Or was this shit really important?

00:53:06Marc:You know, I don't know.

00:53:07Guest:I think that certain things are important.

00:53:09Guest:And I think certain things in the current climate that we're in are really hard to grasp because the noise floor is so loud.

00:53:18Guest:Yeah.

00:53:18Guest:And there's so much stuff.

00:53:19Guest:And you have access to all of it, and everyone has access to all of it.

00:53:23Guest:And that's why I wanted to do this doc, because this is really the primary portal through which everyone accesses everything all the time.

00:53:29Guest:Yeah.

00:53:30Guest:Which is unto itself insane and chaotic.

00:53:33Marc:Yeah, I thought it was informative, and certainly I didn't know the history of it, but it is a story of a...

00:53:40Marc:tech startup that became this thing.

00:53:45Marc:Yeah, a behemoth.

00:53:46Marc:Yeah, and there was a couple things that I learned from it.

00:53:48Marc:I don't remember which doc.

00:53:49Marc:I think it was the doc.

00:53:51Marc:It was the new one where...

00:53:56Marc:Where the kid who was stuck in the alt-right?

00:53:59Guest:Yeah, Caleb.

00:54:00Marc:Caleb Cain.

00:54:00Marc:That's in the new doc.

00:54:02Marc:Like he said the thing.

00:54:04Marc:There's a couple of things that were said that that struck me that when he said, you know, what we risk here is people's ability to be human.

00:54:13Marc:Yeah.

00:54:13Marc:That the destruction of empathy through, I don't know if it's objectification or what the word would be, but this idea that when you're online and when you're taking this stuff in and when the algorithms dictate what you do and think is that you're removing, there's no community of touch.

00:54:35Marc:So what happens is everything becomes some sort of almost, I don't want to

00:54:40Marc:Trivialize it, but it's not a video game.

00:54:42Marc:Yeah.

00:54:42Marc:But there's a distance between humanity and what's going on in some guy's head in his house.

00:54:47Guest:Yeah, that's completely the problem.

00:54:49Guest:There's so much talk now, which I somewhat understand about the algorithms or the algorithm, the algorithm all the time.

00:54:54Guest:And it's not really about an algorithm.

00:54:56Guest:It's really a human societal issue.

00:54:58Guest:And it's really, like you just said, it's an empathy killing issue.

00:55:02Guest:Yeah.

00:55:02Guest:And the problem, you know, and there's great things about these platforms and great things about YouTube, obviously, in terms of some of the things they've done.

00:55:10Guest:But that parasocial component of feeling like you're talking to someone who, you know, but like you said, having no real connection to them whatsoever.

00:55:17Marc:I deal with that all the time.

00:55:18Marc:Yeah.

00:55:19Marc:Because of stuff I was doing live Instagram feeds during pandemic.

00:55:22Marc:Right.

00:55:22Marc:And I was dealing with a lot of lonely, frustrated, scared people.

00:55:26Marc:Yeah.

00:55:26Marc:And they would start interacting me through DMs as if I were FaceTiming them.

00:55:31Marc:Yeah.

00:55:31Marc:And these are not dumb people.

00:55:33Marc:Right.

00:55:34Guest:Yeah.

00:55:34Guest:And it's like something breaks in the brain.

00:55:36Guest:It really impacts the brain.

00:55:38Guest:And so it can cause, I mean, when there was the Christchurch shooting in 2019, I think for a lot of us,

00:55:44Guest:That was the kind of tipping point when we realized these platforms were actually going to cause real world harms and real world violence.

00:55:50Guest:And people say, oh, it's just talk on the Internet.

00:55:53Guest:Don't be a snowflake.

00:55:54Guest:But people were actually going to get hurt.

00:55:56Guest:And that was kind of for me when I wanted to start.

00:55:59Guest:telling a story around this.

00:56:00Marc:Well, also the idea that, you know, it's unintentional self-radicalization because, you know, sometimes you're not savvy enough to know why you're being fed what you're fed.

00:56:11Marc:And that's, I guess, where the algorithm comes in and how it was exploited by people with propagandistic and ideological intentions.

00:56:21Guest:Yeah, there's a couple things at work, though, because to be fair to YouTube, they did a lot of work on the recommender algorithm, and it is much less likely you would get straight up rabbit hole that way where you go on looking for fuzzy slippers and then end up with a Glock and part of a neo-Nazi group.

00:56:36Guest:Um, but, but by the same token, that, that parasocial aspect of like feeling like Steven Crowder or like, you know, um, Candace Owens is in your living room.

00:56:46Guest:If you're susceptible to my biggest nightmare, exactly.

00:56:49Guest:If you're susceptible to rhetoric, that's really extreme and intense, which almost everybody is, whether they're because they're emotionally stifled.

00:56:55Guest:Exactly.

00:56:56Guest:Yeah.

00:56:57Guest:And that, that can lead you into dangerous territory.

00:56:59Marc:So what was the, like, you know, I imagine that the dark web, um,

00:57:04Marc:I mean, Napster, too, but there is a zone that you're kind of with these docs on the periphery of, which is this this kind of like, you know, beyond good and evil, you know, free zone of of of thought and and and barter and ideas that exists behind the the wall of the mainstream Internet.

00:57:28Guest:Yeah.

00:57:29Guest:Yeah.

00:57:29Guest:That's been fascinating to me since the 80s.

00:57:31Guest:Like, I got online in the 80s before the web during the Usenet BBS era.

00:57:36Guest:Yeah.

00:57:36Guest:And that's immediately found that there.

00:57:38Guest:There was, you know, the sort of alt-rec movement, which was rock and roll and sex and philosophy and literature and everything.

00:57:47Guest:And a lot of community there.

00:57:49Guest:But it struck me then that there was this community growing...

00:57:52Guest:uh, that was kind of beyond the basic confines of society in a way, but not, uh, fully, this is where the mistake happens, not really fully liberated from those confines.

00:58:02Guest:Right.

00:58:03Guest:And that's what we saw really blow up during 2016 to 2020 when you had these like Bernie supporters who after, who went full Trump.

00:58:11Guest:Right.

00:58:11Guest:You know, they were like, you know, F the government, like full liberation.

00:58:15Guest:We want to be free.

00:58:16Guest:Then you're like,

00:58:17Guest:No, we're just going to put on a MAGA hat and start stomping people's heads.

00:58:20Guest:That fantasy that you're sort of living beyond the confines of society can very quickly turn into kind of a fascistic thing.

00:58:28Marc:Well, yeah, but this is the thing about what was interesting in, I guess it was probably in the deep web one, is that Charles Schumer, who's no wizard...

00:58:41Marc:But, you know, it was brought to his attention with his, like, kind of basic understanding of the internet as an old man.

00:58:48Marc:Yes.

00:58:49Marc:Was sort of like, this is a problem.

00:58:51Marc:Yeah.

00:58:52Marc:You know?

00:58:52Marc:Yeah.

00:58:53Marc:They're just getting drugs.

00:58:54Marc:Yeah.

00:58:56Marc:Click a button.

00:58:57Marc:Yeah.

00:58:57Marc:But that was what facilitated...

00:58:59Marc:The investigation.

00:59:01Marc:It was.

00:59:01Marc:Yeah.

00:59:02Marc:And so and not unlike, you know, there is a generation of these older guys, you know, on the wrong side of things like it seems that most of these tech giants are.

00:59:12Marc:Well, I can't say most, but at least a couple of the important ones are unrepentant fascists.

00:59:17Marc:you know, in the guise of libertarianism.

00:59:20Marc:That's right, yeah.

00:59:21Marc:And they know that, you know, fascism in and of itself, they don't really give a fuck, and this is the empathy thing, about, you know, what the masses are up to, as long as they have the freedom to conduct business as they want without regulation and without... And they're willing... Like, you know, it's... I just was thinking about this this morning, even with Netflix, is that... Because I had a conversation with somebody, you know, about Robert F. Kennedy, you know, and this idea...

00:59:46Marc:That, you know, he's some sort of like, he's not anti-vax.

00:59:49Marc:He was a guy that was looking for legal rights for people that were affected by vaxes to fight back against the government.

00:59:56Marc:That's all horseshit.

00:59:57Marc:That's nonsense.

00:59:58Marc:But the thing I started to realize, and I realized this a while ago, even about Netflix and how they reacted to the issue of trans protests around jokes, was the fascist brain is going to say like, well, look, you know, there's only a few of them.

01:00:13Marc:Right.

01:00:13Marc:And most people don't give a fuck.

01:00:15Marc:Yeah.

01:00:15Marc:And then there's these other people that want them dead.

01:00:17Marc:Yeah.

01:00:18Marc:But ultimately, we're going to stay in the center of this and let them just play their little game out and not give a fuck about the future of the damage of trans rights or whether or not they're going to be in bigger trouble.

01:00:29Marc:Yeah.

01:00:30Marc:We'll go to where the money is.

01:00:31Marc:Right.

01:00:31Marc:And if we have to change it to Nazi flicks, we can work with that.

01:00:36Marc:Right.

01:00:36Marc:Yeah.

01:00:37Guest:We'll still have an audience.

01:00:38Guest:That's right.

01:00:38Guest:Yeah.

01:00:39Guest:And I think that in tech, you'll find sort of two different.

01:00:41Guest:There's a Venn diagram where they connect, but you find people who are straight up fascists, which I think is what we saw with the with the purchase of Twitter, where Elon came in with an agenda.

01:00:50Guest:He was just like, I'm anti-democratic.

01:00:52Guest:I'm anti-trans.

01:00:53Guest:I'm literally just going to trumpet this stuff all day long.

01:00:55Marc:But he's like, but he is a unrepentant fascist at this point.

01:00:58Guest:That's what I'm saying.

01:00:59Guest:I'm saying he's on that side.

01:01:00Guest:He's the clear, unrepentant.

01:01:02Guest:And Thiel, too.

01:01:03Guest:And Peter Thiel, who I'd say is like his evil dad, right?

01:01:07Guest:He really mentored him.

01:01:08Guest:And Thiel has more power than Elon, even though Elon has, I guess, more money.

01:01:12Guest:But then on the other side, you have just the capitalists, right?

01:01:15Guest:Who aren't necessarily fascists.

01:01:18Guest:And I think this is where a lot of the Google YouTube folks lie, where...

01:01:22Guest:Oh, we're monetizing hate speech and the rise of the far right and people are getting killed.

01:01:27Guest:But we get a lot of money from ad revenue by doing that.

01:01:30Guest:And so, you know, capitalism is more important than ideology and values.

01:01:35Guest:And so.

01:01:36Marc:But alongside that.

01:01:37Marc:and I kind of dropped this thing about the YouTube thing, is that there are calculating tech savvy.

01:01:43Marc:It seems like whatever Bannon did when he realized that the Gamergate was a portal to sort of radicalizing these sort of isolated, angry young men into real action, whether they saw it that way or not, they liked the game of it.

01:02:00Marc:And I think that was really the beginning of modern...

01:02:03Marc:you know, kind of a grassroots radicalization.

01:02:06Guest:Completely, which is why we, we focused on it in the doc because it's, there's a, it's very easy to, once you have your arms around a huge group of people, it's very easy to exploit them.

01:02:16Guest:So Steven Crowder, maybe who is still on YouTube with millions of followers, he may be being dismissed by YouTube as well.

01:02:21Guest:He's just like you just said, you know, who's he really going to hurt?

01:02:24Guest:He's just yakking his nonsense to like a, he calls himself a comedian.

01:02:27Guest:That's what bothers me.

01:02:28Guest:Yeah.

01:02:28Guest:Right.

01:02:30Guest:And, well, he's like, yeah, he's like a failed actor or whatever.

01:02:33Guest:Failed water thing.

01:02:34Guest:Yeah, I think so.

01:02:35Guest:Failed human being with a soul.

01:02:38Guest:But then it's very easy to exploit that group, that huge community that he's addressing.

01:02:42Marc:It's funny because Bannon's a failed showbiz guy, too.

01:02:44Guest:Yeah, I know.

01:02:45Guest:Well, yeah, but that's...

01:02:46Guest:They're all fucking grifters.

01:02:47Guest:Yeah, as is.

01:02:48Guest:It's a huge grift.

01:02:49Guest:Totally.

01:02:51Guest:Good one, though.

01:02:51Guest:It pays dividends.

01:02:53Marc:I guess, but there is also that moment where, and I don't know if you did it, I think you might have put it in the YouTube, where to get these guys, mostly, out into the real world, into real action.

01:03:07Marc:You did cover it.

01:03:08Marc:January 6th is a good example, right?

01:03:10Marc:Yeah, that's what it leads to, yeah.

01:03:11Marc:But early on, you know, when Milo Yanatopoulos or whatever his name is.

01:03:18Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:03:18Marc:Yeah.

01:03:18Marc:Was sort of this strange kind of, you know, had a sexual component.

01:03:23Guest:Yeah.

01:03:23Marc:But he was pulling these guys out of their houses into action.

01:03:25Marc:And when you see video of these guys, you're like, they don't know how to be outside.

01:03:29Marc:Yeah.

01:03:30Marc:This is like almost like a cosplay thing.

01:03:32Marc:Yeah.

01:03:32Marc:Where they're like sort of like we're doing it.

01:03:34Marc:And it's not registering as reality.

01:03:37Guest:That's true.

01:03:37Guest:To some of them.

01:03:38Guest:Yes.

01:03:38Guest:Yeah, they don't really know how to function in reality.

01:03:40Guest:It's kind of... Yeah.

01:03:41Guest:I mean, Jan 6 was like that.

01:03:42Guest:I mean, you see it in their eyes.

01:03:43Guest:It's just like they're almost not even sure why they're there, and yet they're committing acts of violence.

01:03:48Marc:And you see it in all these MAGA interviews.

01:03:51Marc:It's sort of like where they contradict themselves, but that part of their brain doesn't process it that way.

01:03:55Marc:Yeah.

01:03:56Marc:And, all right, well, this is like a different conversation.

01:03:58Marc:So the...

01:04:00Marc:The incentive or the, the, the, uh, inspiration for the YouTube thing.

01:04:05Marc:How does that happen to you?

01:04:06Guest:Like, what was the, well, I've been working on the growth of online communities for a long time.

01:04:10Guest:I've been watching, I was working on a doc about QAnon, um, which I was about to drop in and do.

01:04:15Guest:Uh, I was going to go and install myself into families that had been radicalized around the country.

01:04:20Guest:I was getting a little nervous about it because I'm Jewish and QAnon is essentially an anti-Semitic cult.

01:04:25Guest:Sure, totally.

01:04:27Marc:I just did an interview with a guy who wrote Operation Mindfuck.

01:04:31Guest:Oh, okay.

01:04:31Guest:That cult of Trump.

01:04:32Marc:Of course, yeah.

01:04:33Marc:That guy Robert Guffey.

01:04:34Marc:Yeah.

01:04:35Marc:Yeah, it's straight up anti-Semitic.

01:04:37Guest:Yeah, so I was like, is this, you know, I've got kids and a family.

01:04:40Guest:At one point, am I crossing my own lines?

01:04:42Guest:Like, do I need to be the guy telling this story?

01:04:44Guest:Yeah.

01:04:44Guest:So I was kind of hesitant to start that.

01:04:46Guest:And then COVID made it happen, made it difficult.

01:04:48Guest:And frankly, the producer, Gail Ann Hurd, reached out to me about- I interviewed her.

01:04:51Guest:Yeah, she's amazing.

01:04:52Guest:She's been so great as a partner.

01:04:54Guest:But she had some connections with access within YouTube and was like, she'd seen my other tech docs and she thought it made sense.

01:05:01Guest:And I was like, A, I'd love to work with you.

01:05:03Guest:And B, I also have a lot of access within YouTube and Google.

01:05:05Guest:And I think we can get to big people here.

01:05:07Guest:And I think they will talk.

01:05:09Guest:And so it felt like the right time after, I was very concerned after 2016 about technology's role in the rise of the far right.

01:05:19Guest:And I felt like nobody was talking about it, and everyone was talking about Twitter, and everyone was talking about Facebook, no one was talking about YouTube.

01:05:24Guest:Or 4chan.

01:05:25Guest:And Google, exactly.

01:05:26Guest:So here you have the largest tech company on the planet with more eyeballs on it by an order of magnitude than any other that's just completely under the radar.

01:05:34Guest:And they've done a lot of great things.

01:05:36Guest:So I really wanted to focus on, like we were saying before, it's nuanced, right?

01:05:41Guest:These are tools, the tools that can be used for good or they can be used for evil.

01:05:45Guest:Um, but there is a question of account with the deep web.

01:05:47Guest:Yeah.

01:05:48Guest:Same with the deep web.

01:05:49Guest:So I came at it in a very open way in that way.

01:05:51Guest:Um, but I did want to look at the implications of a company that big at this time in history and its impact on history.

01:05:58Marc:Well, I thought the threads that you followed, it's just sort of like, it's a weird thing when you talk to the people that are smart enough to know what's up, but still keep their sort of idealism in place.

01:06:09Marc:Like, you know, in the deep web doc, you know,

01:06:11Marc:You've literally got silhouetted guys saying like, look, all we're trying to do is to get good heroin to responsible users.

01:06:20Guest:It's like, what?

01:06:22Guest:Everyone should have that right.

01:06:23Guest:I mean, as a bumper sticker, it's kind of hard to argue with that.

01:06:29Marc:And, you know, so there's those guys whose idealism is confused with this, you know, this type of illegal transaction.

01:06:36Marc:Yeah.

01:06:36Marc:Then it's like, you know, that has real world consequences.

01:06:39Marc:Right.

01:06:40Marc:But it's cloaked in the ideas.

01:06:41Marc:It's like better than they get shot in the streets trying to buy dope or get a bad hit of fentanyl.

01:06:46Marc:Like, yeah, we've got the good shit.

01:06:48Marc:Yeah.

01:06:48Marc:And, you know, no one's going to bother them.

01:06:50Guest:Yeah, and we're a community, so we'll tell you how to shoot up and we'll help you get on methadone and we'll all be in it together.

01:06:55Guest:We'll take you through the whole process right until you OD.

01:06:57Guest:Exactly, yeah.

01:06:58Guest:We'll hold your hand at the end.

01:06:59Marc:But also you talk to these guys, you know, these well-intended tech nerds who created YouTube who seem like good guys.

01:07:06Marc:Yeah.

01:07:06Marc:And then they were bought out early on, so they have the luxury of being like, well, that wasn't really what we intended.

01:07:12Guest:Right, yeah.

01:07:13Guest:Which is what you often see in the tech docs, like just somebody who's like cashed out, bagging on whatever's going on.

01:07:19Guest:Yeah, well, what did they got to lose?

01:07:20Guest:From the safety of their house in Aspen.

01:07:21Marc:Yeah.

01:07:22Marc:But the other thing that I found, you know, very compelling, and we all knew it was happening, is that, you know, show business as we know it is finished.

01:07:32Marc:Right.

01:07:33Marc:And that, you know, the numbers that people are talking about of influencers and people who just sort of set up shop is above and beyond anything you or I could have made on a TV show.

01:07:44Marc:For sure.

01:07:45Marc:So that whole, like, we're just watching that die.

01:07:47Marc:You know, outside of, fortunately, I think the profoundly talented people who want to work in a collaborative environment with other profoundly inspired people are still, you know, working within the ecosystem of show business and of Hollywood and that.

01:08:05Marc:But guys who just sort of want to build their own worlds and make, you know, millions and millions of dollars can do it and have done it, especially in my business.

01:08:13Marc:Yeah.

01:08:14Marc:You know, but...

01:08:14Marc:but comedy once you do that duck next the tribalization of comedy yeah that's dark yeah it's it's kind of dark but it's pretty straight up that you know all these kind of dum-dums who are like you know fighting for free speech are so easily co-opted by you know right-wing propagandists yeah that you know they barely even know it yeah yeah they're just serving a purpose yeah totally yeah and it moves the crowd it's that you know it moved the crowd like well yeah but look at the crowd

01:08:39Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:08:39Guest:Who wants to play for those guys?

01:08:40Marc:You're not a comic.

01:08:42Marc:You're a tribal warlord.

01:08:43Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:08:44Marc:You know, telling guys to eat organ meat in the morning.

01:08:47Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:08:48Guest:But most of those people are, let's be honest, are not the brightest bulbs.

01:08:51Marc:No, but they've been convinced that they know what comedy is or they're comedy fans.

01:08:56Marc:Yes.

01:08:56Marc:But they have an ideological sort of...

01:09:01Marc:point of view that was given to them by somebody else, and there's no nuance in it, and there's certainly not much humanity in it.

01:09:08Marc:No, none.

01:09:09Marc:No empathy.

01:09:10Marc:Well, that is the biggest problem, is that, you know, and I've said it before on the show, that, you know, without tolerance, democracy can't function.

01:09:17Marc:And without empathy, humanity can't function.

01:09:20Marc:So, you know, the more that these people live out in these worlds, like even these guys, these psycho-libertarian wizard kids that created the Silk Road or kind of navigated

01:09:31Marc:Pass the barriers that enable them to get into the dark web, you know, are idealistic, philosophically minded, you know, coders who I don't know that they live outside of their head.

01:09:43Marc:Yeah.

01:09:43Marc:I think that their ideas and the application of those ideas do not take into consideration the bulk of humanity.

01:09:49Guest:Well, that's why I made the doc.

01:09:51Guest:I mean, there's a point at which the keyboard collides with reality.

01:09:56Guest:And that's where the trouble happens.

01:09:58Guest:Same with YouTube.

01:09:59Guest:Exactly.

01:10:00Guest:And with YouTube, that's writ large because now you're dealing with propagandizing giant chunks of the, you know, the Silk Road was tiny.

01:10:07Guest:Yeah.

01:10:07Guest:I mean, in the scheme of things, like they called Ross a kingpin, which was ludicrous.

01:10:11Guest:Yeah.

01:10:12Guest:And they charged him based on being a kingpin, which was really unfair.

01:10:14Marc:Well, there were so many pictures of drugs.

01:10:16Marc:Yeah.

01:10:16Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:10:16Guest:Yeah.

01:10:17Guest:So look at this list.

01:10:20Guest:Look at this.

01:10:20Guest:They got benzos.

01:10:21Guest:They got mollies.

01:10:23Guest:It's amazing.

01:10:24Guest:Yeah.

01:10:25Guest:But with YouTube, you're dealing with just giant chunks of the global population.

01:10:29Guest:So that becomes a real problem.

01:10:30Marc:Yeah.

01:10:30Marc:But also it's like, you know, nobody I know watches TV anymore in that way.

01:10:34Marc:No.

01:10:35Marc:No.

01:10:35Marc:And, you know, I think that, you know, with YouTube and certainly with, you know, Instagram and some of the other ones, but like YouTube a lot that, you know, you are you see everything in segments.

01:10:46Marc:Yeah.

01:10:46Marc:That that that, you know, narrative arc or sort of context is not important.

01:10:51Marc:Yeah.

01:10:51Marc:So it's all driven by and you cover this to this, you know, the the kind of focused dopamine charge of clicking and clicking.

01:10:59Marc:Right.

01:11:00Guest:That's right.

01:11:00Marc:Isn't that in there?

01:11:01Guest:Yes.

01:11:01Guest:Yeah.

01:11:02Guest:A hundred percent.

01:11:02Guest:You got it all in there.

01:11:03Guest:Yeah.

01:11:03Guest:Well, that's primarily what's driving you more even than an algorithm in that way is, is the scrolling, the stimulation of just constant, constant content in your face.

01:11:12Marc:And you know all that.

01:11:14Marc:Yeah.

01:11:15Marc:I mean, you, you, you sort of, they know what I mean.

01:11:17Guest:Yeah.

01:11:17Guest:They know it, you know, but that's what it's ad based, right?

01:11:20Guest:So because it's ad based business model, it's whole purpose is to keep you pinned.

01:11:24Marc:But that's the fucking amazing thing about it.

01:11:26Marc:After all is said and done and there's all these new technologies and new billionaires because of entrepreneurship, the entire model is still run like fucking radio.

01:11:35Guest:This is what I keep saying.

01:11:36Guest:That's the whole problem.

01:11:37Guest:Like it's so it's forward thinking in so many ways and so backwards and so many others.

01:11:41Guest:And their problem is based on that.

01:11:43Guest:Their business model is so antiquated.

01:11:44Marc:Like, why don't you come up with a better business model?

01:11:47Marc:Influencers, I mean, they were doing that on the Milton Berle show at the beginning of television.

01:11:51Marc:Yeah.

01:11:51Marc:You know, the, you know, what is it?

01:11:55Marc:Like, like Chevron brings you so and such theater.

01:11:58Guest:You know, that's always been the bag.

01:12:01Guest:Yeah.

01:12:01Guest:It's really old school in that way.

01:12:03Guest:It's just like, it's like, it's like Pulitzer and yellow journalism.

01:12:06Guest:It's just like keep, you keep pumping really provocative stuff at people and you'll keep them engaged and you can sell stuff to them.

01:12:12Marc:But that's the weird thing.

01:12:13Marc:It's a little devious because I don't really respond to commercials.

01:12:17Marc:I don't think so.

01:12:18Marc:But if I don't know, all of a sudden, you're like, I think I got some cool boots.

01:12:22Marc:And then you realize that everyone's got those boots.

01:12:24Marc:I'm like, how the fuck did that happen?

01:12:26Marc:Exactly.

01:12:26Marc:I don't know how that happens.

01:12:28Guest:Yeah.

01:12:28Guest:Where there's 4 billion people watching this content every day, then yeah.

01:12:33Guest:But they slipped the boots in them.

01:12:34Guest:They do.

01:12:35Guest:They slipped them in.

01:12:35Guest:Yeah.

01:12:37Marc:It got it right into my brain.

01:12:39Guest:I don't know.

01:12:39Marc:Why am I wearing Uggs?

01:12:40Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:41Guest:I look ridiculous.

01:12:42Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:43Marc:So where, like, what do you come out, like, what did you learn?

01:12:47Guest:I mean, what do you- I mean, I learned a bunch of stuff.

01:12:49Guest:You always do.

01:12:49Guest:You don't go in at all with all the answers, right?

01:12:53Guest:And I didn't realize how much YouTube was really just a function of Google, because it's really kind of presented as a very- Were they paid a lot?

01:12:59Guest:Well, they did, but they presented as two separate companies with two separate campuses and different owners and everything.

01:13:07Guest:But it's really Google's media front end.

01:13:09Guest:And I think that that has implications in terms of the power of Google.

01:13:13Guest:I think it tells us a lot about the issues we face with big tech right now, where you just have...

01:13:18Guest:a very small group of companies running everything.

01:13:21Guest:Yeah.

01:13:22Guest:And everything is really all of the information, all the entertainment, all of the data, all of the media, all of the news for the entire planet is essentially being run by three companies.

01:13:31Guest:Um, and I didn't, I kind of guessed that there was some aspect of that.

01:13:35Guest:Right.

01:13:36Guest:Um, but the level of monopoly is sort of, and the scale, the size of these companies and the profit, like that was sort of jaw dropping to me.

01:13:45Marc:So do you think that, that, um,

01:13:48Marc:that Congress, essentially, as a regulating entity, is far behind the understanding of how these companies work?

01:14:02Guest:Yes.

01:14:02Guest:I think they are at the risk of sounding really flippant.

01:14:06Guest:They're clueless, to be honest.

01:14:08Marc:But I was sort of amazed that

01:14:11Marc:You know, law enforcement is not that clueless.

01:14:13Marc:I mean, the one thing that I saw, and it was a big part of the deep web doc, is that, you know, this Fourth Amendment issue around how the information was seized, you know, was a real issue.

01:14:26Marc:But it becomes sort of nuanced and a little wonky to just the layman.

01:14:31Marc:Yeah.

01:14:31Marc:But to those who fight those constitutional battles and are sort of moving to get beyond government regulation, it's a very important thing.

01:14:39Marc:But it seemed that the law enforcement agencies are pretty fucking up to speed.

01:14:43Guest:The DEA is up to speed.

01:14:45Guest:Child Protective Services, super up to speed.

01:14:47Guest:They're probably doing more good than anybody on the Internet in terms of protecting children online.

01:14:52Guest:Yeah.

01:14:52Guest:The government, when we talk about the government, because obviously that's a big, it's a generalization, right?

01:14:58Guest:If you talk to Adam Schiff, Adam Schiff is pretty educated and his team is like- Yeah, but they're insulated too.

01:15:04Marc:It's weird.

01:15:05Marc:You talk to Adam Schiff and you're like, are you going to fix it?

01:15:07Marc:He's like, well, I'm working on this one thing.

01:15:10Guest:That's exactly what I was going to say.

01:15:12Guest:That's the problem, is getting those things to come together.

01:15:16Guest:So sort of the government, the big G government is clueless in the sense of they don't really understand the full implications of what's going on.

01:15:24Guest:They don't exactly know how to fix it.

01:15:26Guest:They don't work together.

01:15:27Guest:There's no mechanism by which to get them to work together.

01:15:30Marc:And there's an entire party that all it wants is to exploit.

01:15:34Guest:There's a very powerful other party that's a majority that is preventing them.

01:15:38Guest:And not only that, but the tech companies have so much money.

01:15:40Guest:You look at a company like Google, they're paying off the left as much as they're paying off the right.

01:15:45Guest:So there's very little legislation, very little regulation, very little antitrust coming their way.

01:15:49Guest:So whenever I talk to individuals, sometimes you get heartened within Congress or whatever.

01:15:53Guest:And then you walk away and realize, oh, well, they can't do anything.

01:15:56Guest:So it doesn't matter how smart they are.

01:15:58Guest:That's right.

01:15:58Guest:Nothing's going to happen.

01:16:00Marc:That guy can't save the world.

01:16:01Guest:Yeah, so people kept saying to me when they watched the doc, because it's pretty intense, like, well, what's the solution?

01:16:06Guest:It's like, well, the good news is I think eventually people will come up within government who came up online and really understand the nuance of these platforms.

01:16:14Guest:The bad news is we've got...

01:16:16Guest:you know, a fascist takeover coming in this country that's only going to get worse.

01:16:20Guest:Like, things are going to get worse before they get better, I think.

01:16:23Marc:How is it going to time out?

01:16:24Marc:And also, like, how do you get those people that you're talking about interested in government?

01:16:29Marc:I mean, because of the nature of things, you know, people don't even want to be doctors anymore.

01:16:32Marc:Yeah.

01:16:33Marc:You know, there's a real kind of, like, employment problem

01:16:35Marc:with getting, you know, righteously minded, civic minded people involved in government in a way that because everybody, I think one of the other symptoms of what you're documenting is that everyone feels there's a there's an entitlement and a self-centeredness that it just has naturally evolved.

01:16:56Marc:Right.

01:16:57Marc:And everybody thinks that they have their own show somewhere.

01:17:00Guest:Yes, that's right.

01:17:00Marc:And, you know, why would they want to be part of a civic collective that, you know, is ultimately in the short term ineffectual?

01:17:09Marc:Yeah.

01:17:10Marc:When they can have more self-serving.

01:17:12Guest:I think that's true.

01:17:14Guest:But I think that that my my own optimism comes from the belief, which may be I may be on my deathbed and go, well, I was wrong.

01:17:22Guest:But but the belief that that.

01:17:24Guest:Humans will do the right thing when they are stripped of all of the things that they care about.

01:17:32Marc:But the problem is, is that that stripping is very elaborate and engaging that, you know, they might have been stripped, but they no longer think along those terms.

01:17:43Marc:They are acting.

01:17:44Marc:They are thinking in relation to how they're being defined by this cultural input, which is nonstop.

01:17:49Guest:I think that's 100% true, but I think certain watershed moments like Dobbs is a game changer.

01:17:55Guest:Sure.

01:17:55Guest:I think that when something like Dobbs happens and women on both sides of the political aisle, which is why I really thought Trump was done, done when that happened, like everyone's freaking out about him.

01:18:03Guest:Like that guy to me is cooked.

01:18:05Guest:It doesn't mean there isn't DeSantis and Hawley and a million evil versions that we have to worry about because we do have to worry about them.

01:18:11Guest:Yeah.

01:18:11Guest:But I think that when something like Dobbs happens and women on both sides of political law go, oh, my God, my rights are gone.

01:18:18Guest:Yeah.

01:18:18Guest:Like all my rights are gone overnight.

01:18:19Guest:Poof, they're gone.

01:18:20Guest:I think that that's very activating.

01:18:23Guest:And I think that even if it isn't like, oh, suddenly they're all hitting the streets and they're fighting.

01:18:27Guest:I do think that is activated.

01:18:30Guest:People are going to be civic minded that I'd say, you know what?

01:18:33Guest:I've got to get into civic politics or law.

01:18:37Guest:Yeah.

01:18:37Guest:And, and because, and, and that's why one of the reasons I make docs is people say, don't, isn't it demoralizing if you make something and you, and like a billion people don't see it or it doesn't change policy or something.

01:18:47Guest:And I have this kind of, I call it humble because it sounds falsely modest.

01:18:51Guest:Um, but I'm like, look, if one person watches one of these things and goes, I'm going to be a, an antitrust lawyer, like that's job done.

01:18:59Guest:Like it's like anything that gets people engaged in some way.

01:19:02Marc:Yeah, I just always wonder, and I think that's true.

01:19:06Marc:And again, I have a hard time judging what the fuck is really going on.

01:19:10Guest:Right, we all do.

01:19:12Marc:Because I'm at the age I'm at, and I don't do a lot of things.

01:19:16Marc:I'm not in the mix, per se, of what's really happening culturally.

01:19:21Marc:I mean, I don't know music.

01:19:22Marc:I barely know the movies.

01:19:24Marc:I can't keep up with TV shows.

01:19:25Marc:And there's part of me, I don't know that anyone can, because we're not kids, and it's sort of dictated by kids.

01:19:32Marc:But but there's also this the idea of like, I believe what you're saying is true, but there's also the fear is like, how do you hold people in the frame without them feeling, you know, defeated and then hence, you know, seek more entertainment or more distraction to sort of, you know, sedate their powerlessness in the face of climate change or fascism?

01:19:53Guest:Yeah, I think that I think.

01:19:55Guest:I agree with you.

01:19:55Guest:And I think that that is why in the short term, the very least, we're going to see more of all of this destruction, because I think people are anesthetized.

01:20:03Guest:I think there's complicity on the side of tech companies and other forms of news that are happily anesthetizing people for dollars.

01:20:11Guest:So that is going to continue.

01:20:12Guest:That is not going away.

01:20:13Marc:I just I don't like it.

01:20:14Marc:That's the one thing that I every day I wonder how.

01:20:18Marc:Like, I really have these weird questions because like, you know, look, I feel I'm hard on myself over everything.

01:20:24Marc:And I feel shame and guilt about, you know, everything that I perceive as my failings.

01:20:30Marc:Like, I don't know how these fuckers can live with themselves.

01:20:32Marc:Yeah.

01:20:33Marc:They must operate in such a strange blindspotted bubble or they actually aren't able to conceive of empathy, which I think is a corporate problem in general.

01:20:44Marc:Yeah.

01:20:44Marc:But when you see what's unfolding, I don't know how – do they just sort of like, well, this is my job and I'm not – they rationalize.

01:20:52Guest:Yeah, I think they rationalize it.

01:20:53Guest:I think the further up the food chain you go, as you know, the more people you have not telling you all of what's going on and kind of- That's why you hire them.

01:21:00Guest:Exactly.

01:21:01Guest:Sloughing off accountability.

01:21:02Guest:Like, well, look, there's always going to be bad apples.

01:21:04Guest:Like, I think if you look at YouTube, they do a lot of good things.

01:21:07Guest:I'm not that bad.

01:21:07Guest:Yeah, like look at all of our diversity initiatives.

01:21:09Guest:Look at all the positives we do.

01:21:11Guest:They focus on that.

01:21:12Guest:We're making enormous profit.

01:21:14Guest:You know, their shareholders are happy.

01:21:15Guest:Their board is happy.

01:21:17Guest:And so if like someone says, well, the Christchurch shooter study, he killed all these Muslims because of YouTube and only because of YouTube.

01:21:22Guest:And if it wasn't for YouTube, he wouldn't have ever done it.

01:21:25Guest:What do you think of that?

01:21:26Guest:And they say, well, there's always going to be bad apples.

01:21:28Guest:Like we can't account for all of society, right?

01:21:30Marc:Right.

01:21:31Marc:And it's with three guys on YouTube.

01:21:33Marc:Yeah.

01:21:33Marc:That he did it because of.

01:21:35Guest:That's right.

01:21:35Marc:Basically.

01:21:36Marc:Yeah.

01:21:36Marc:Yeah, the bad apple problem.

01:21:37Marc:It's sort of like, well, it seems like the bad apples are starting to really get together.

01:21:41Marc:Yeah.

01:21:42Marc:There's a lot of apples.

01:21:43Marc:Yeah.

01:21:44Marc:And they're popping off everywhere.

01:21:46Marc:Yeah.

01:21:46Marc:And they tried to hang the vice president and they killed people.

01:21:49Marc:A few bad apples.

01:21:50Marc:Yeah.

01:21:51Marc:But that gets back to that thing is like, you know, if you perceive them as a minority that eventually will, you know, either become irrelevant or, you know, dictate your bottom line.

01:22:03Marc:Yeah.

01:22:03Marc:Yeah, that's like a plus plus.

01:22:05Marc:It's a gamble they're willing to take.

01:22:07Guest:Yeah.

01:22:07Guest:You know, fuck it.

01:22:08Guest:I also think that their mechanisms are in place that don't allow them to change unless they... I think you can't police yourself if you're a publicly traded company where a shareholder could frog march you out of the building if you change your profit.

01:22:19Guest:mechanism to make less profit.

01:22:22Guest:Right.

01:22:22Guest:If they say, oh, you know what, this is bad.

01:22:24Guest:Our ad based model isn't working because a lot of people.

01:22:26Marc:And that's the other thing is like shareholder responsibility is negligible because most of it is just rich people with money guys who are, you know, who are kind of investing in a broad spectrum of things for a portfolio.

01:22:36Marc:Yeah.

01:22:37Marc:So fucking 90% of the shareholders are sort of like, how's, how's my money?

01:22:41Guest:Exactly.

01:22:41Guest:Yeah.

01:22:42Guest:So the target of, of accountability keeps getting diverted.

01:22:45Guest:That's right.

01:22:45Guest:Further and further away until there is none anymore.

01:22:48Marc:And also the, the, the institutions in place, I think you brought it up about, you know, you know, that there was that stuff, I guess it was probably in the dark web one about how, you know, all of these institutions, whether they're within the government, like the FBI have a lot invested in, you know, the money that comes in to fight whatever they're fighting, even if it's ineffective and, and they're not going to change their ways because they don't want to change their budgets.

01:23:10Marc:That's right.

01:23:11Guest:Cause they'll lose money and they'll, they're afraid of losing their jobs.

01:23:13Guest:Which is why the Silk Road, which was basically this tiny little corner of the internet, was blown up into this massive, like, bigger-than-a-cartel thing.

01:23:21Marc:Yeah, and I just don't... It's not that I don't have hope, necessarily, but it is hard to...

01:23:30Marc:I just don't understand people as much as I thought.

01:23:35Marc:And we started this conversation talking about the thing about talking to people like you and I are talking or doing it in the documentary ways that you do see people for who they are.

01:23:45Marc:But when you really think about the number of people and the possibilities that they have

01:23:50Marc:in their life in any second to engage in God knows what to fill their brain with.

01:23:56Marc:And there's just millions and millions of these isolated, or not even isolated, just people walking around with this shit in their hand and in their head.

01:24:05Marc:It's very daunting to try to figure out what the humanity is, because this idea that you say that most people that eventually will maybe do the decent thing, it's like, I don't even know if people are engaged as humans anymore that much.

01:24:17Guest:Yeah, I have hope that my general belief is that, yes, the the the events all the way through COVID have shown us that, you know, given the choice, many, if not most humans will will take the wrong one.

01:24:30Guest:I mean, COVID was just such a demoralizing, you know, to live even my kid, like a kid at the time, he went from.

01:24:37Guest:eight to 12 during COVID.

01:24:39Guest:He was just like, what's wrong with people?

01:24:41Guest:Like he was utterly flummoxed by the sheer inanity and heartlessness of the way people were dealing with the pandemic.

01:24:49Guest:The anger.

01:24:50Marc:Yeah.

01:24:51Marc:Over public health protocol.

01:24:52Guest:Yeah, over throwing a mask on or whatever.

01:24:53Guest:It was just insanity.

01:24:55Marc:Yeah.

01:24:55Marc:But that's what politics has become on that side.

01:24:58Marc:Yeah.

01:24:58Marc:I mean, the fact that they were able to make that a insanely successful wedge issue was crazy.

01:25:04Marc:Yeah.

01:25:04Marc:I mean, it's sort of like, it's going to go away, you guys.

01:25:07Marc:Yeah.

01:25:07Marc:We're just trying to make it go away.

01:25:09Guest:Yeah.

01:25:09Guest:Quicker.

01:25:10Guest:Yeah.

01:25:10Guest:Hopefully.

01:25:10Guest:Yeah.

01:25:11Guest:So that your grandmother or your dad doesn't die.

01:25:13Marc:It's like, it was like, what are you doing?

01:25:15Guest:Yeah.

01:25:15Yeah.

01:25:15Marc:Why would the government want to kill all the people?

01:25:18Guest:Yeah.

01:25:23Guest:I don't.

01:25:23Guest:Yeah.

01:25:24Guest:So, I mean, I think that's the thing is my hope comes from the fact that it doesn't it doesn't take over the course of history.

01:25:29Guest:It's never taken a lot of people to create positive change.

01:25:32Guest:And so I know there's a there are is a fair amount of people who do think well and are going to.

01:25:37Guest:take action.

01:25:38Guest:There's a lot of people in science, people at JPL right now working on climate change and at different Caltech and different places around the world.

01:25:46Guest:I live next door to a biochemist who put my mind at ease at the beginning of COVID because he was like, I've never seen, he was working on the vaccine and he was like, I can tell you it's going to be a minute and I'm not going to belittle it.

01:25:56Guest:You should take it seriously, but I've never seen so many international university communities come together.

01:26:02Guest:They're usually competitive.

01:26:03Guest:to battle this thing, and we are going to get a vaccine, and we are going to save people's lives.

01:26:07Guest:And that was very invigorating.

01:26:09Marc:Well, yeah, because that's the world that none of us are in touch with, that people are doing the quiet, real work.

01:26:13Marc:Just getting stuff done.

01:26:14Marc:Yeah, because we're all caught up in this.

01:26:16Marc:Even if you don't want to be, you're caught up in this sort of clickbait.

01:26:19Marc:Yeah, divisosphere.

01:26:21Marc:Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:26:23Marc:But there's plenty of people, and even in a weird, not necessarily great way, even law enforcement.

01:26:30Guest:I mean, that was the other thing.

01:26:30Marc:It's like, oh, there are still people figuring out how to do things.

01:26:33Guest:Yeah, that's right.

01:26:35Guest:Yeah.

01:26:35Guest:And there's really that's the thing about the tech world that's always made me somewhat optimistic about it.

01:26:39Guest:I know so many people within tech, even within Google and YouTube who are really good people and really smart and really trying to figure out solutions to things.

01:26:47Guest:And so, you know, there has to be better communication and there has to be better accountability.

01:26:52Guest:But that's a capitalism problem more than it is an algorithm.

01:26:55Marc:Yeah, I don't know if I'm detached or whether I don't give a fuck or what.

01:26:58Marc:Because I don't spend much time at all on YouTube.

01:27:01Marc:I like the idea that I can watch a lot of Rodney Dangerfield appearances on Johnny Carson.

01:27:06Marc:Yeah.

01:27:08Marc:But aside from that, it's not a go-to place for me, nor is Facebook.

01:27:11Marc:Yeah.

01:27:12Guest:You know, but if you're 25, like all three of my boys, two of whom are out of the house already, they all came up on YouTube and use it for everything.

01:27:18Guest:All their music, all their TV, all their news.

01:27:20Guest:It's their search engine.

01:27:22Guest:It's literally the portal for everything for them.

01:27:25Guest:All of entertainment and all of the internet is through YouTube.

01:27:27Guest:Yeah.

01:27:28Guest:So they're not even really on social media.

01:27:30Guest:Like that's where people get confused.

01:27:31Guest:YouTube isn't really social media.

01:27:33Guest:It's literally the portal to everything.

01:27:35Marc:Right.

01:27:35Guest:Right.

01:27:36Guest:Cause some of my little one was maybe on discord or something, but they're mostly on YouTube.

01:27:41Right.

01:27:41Marc:That's just where they get everything.

01:27:42Guest:That's where they get everything.

01:27:43Marc:Yeah.

01:27:44Marc:Yeah.

01:27:45Guest:That's generational.

01:27:46Marc:Sure.

01:27:47Marc:But it is weird for you and I who came up in sort of old school showbiz.

01:27:52Marc:Yeah.

01:27:53Marc:It's like it's really kind of collapsing.

01:27:56Yeah.

01:27:56Guest:It is.

01:27:57Guest:Absolutely.

01:27:57Guest:Yeah.

01:27:58Guest:I mean, look at the strike.

01:27:59Guest:I'm knee deep in it right now.

01:28:00Guest:I'm in all three of those unions and I'm doing a lot of stuff around it because it's really important.

01:28:05Guest:But it's, you know, people are talking about AI and all these other issues.

01:28:08Guest:And I'm like, well, yeah, but these issues have been brewing for a while and they're like labor crisis issues.

01:28:13Guest:And it's much it's a much worse sea change than just like about AI or a new technology or something.

01:28:19Guest:Sure.

01:28:20Guest:And that's been creeping up for a minute.

01:28:21Guest:Yeah, I wonder what's going to happen.

01:28:23Guest:Yeah, I don't know.

01:28:24Guest:Things do feel a little bleak there as far as show business is concerned.

01:28:30Marc:But there is this idea, because I know a lot of comics who are releasing their specials on YouTube, and the only reason I won't do that is because I don't want to be disappointed by the engagement.

01:28:39Marc:So for me to have a benefactor like HBO or something, I'm sort of like, well, there's a context, and it's curated, and a lot of my fans are kind of my age.

01:28:49Marc:Yeah.

01:28:49Marc:And when it works, it works.

01:28:50Guest:Yeah.

01:28:51Guest:We did Showbiz Kids on HBO.

01:28:52Guest:It was great for us.

01:28:53Guest:And we had a huge audience.

01:28:54Guest:And like, you know, you want it to work.

01:28:57Guest:Yeah.

01:28:57Guest:Because it does work.

01:28:58Guest:Yeah.

01:28:58Guest:But it is being broken.

01:29:00Marc:But yeah.

01:29:00Marc:But also, you know, in order for YouTube to work, you've got to put the time in.

01:29:04Guest:Yeah.

01:29:05Guest:And you have to really care about that.

01:29:07Guest:You have to have a passion for that platform.

01:29:09Guest:Yeah.

01:29:10Marc:For self-promotion.

01:29:11Guest:Yeah.

01:29:12Marc:Well, great talking to you, man.

01:29:13Guest:You too.

01:29:14Guest:Yeah.

01:29:14Guest:It was really nice.

01:29:14Guest:Nice to meet you.

01:29:15Guest:Yeah.

01:29:15Guest:Thanks, Mark.

01:29:19Marc:There you go.

01:29:22Marc:That puts it all in perspective, right?

01:29:26Marc:The YouTube Effect is available starting tomorrow, August 8th on the digital on-demand service of your choice.

01:29:31Marc:Hang out for a minute, folks.

01:29:36Marc:New bonus episodes are happening twice a week on the full Marin tomorrow.

01:29:39Marc:We're posting a new Mark and kit on movies where we talk about Suspiria.

01:29:44Marc:This is the kit indoctrinating me into the world of horror.

01:29:48Marc:And last week on the Friday show, Brendan and Chris paid tribute to Paul Rubens.

01:29:52Guest:And I was also thrilled when he announced that he was going to do the show, like the original Pee Wee Herman show, which is what got him famous in L.A.

01:30:02Guest:He was going to do it for a Broadway run.

01:30:04Guest:And so I go to see that.

01:30:06Guest:I was so excited.

01:30:07Guest:And I was sitting next to Eddie Brill, by coincidence.

01:30:11Guest:Eddie Brill is a comic.

01:30:12Guest:And at the time, he was the comic booker on Letterman.

01:30:16Guest:Like if you saw comedians on Letterman, Eddie was the one booking them.

01:30:21Guest:And he'd been on WTF at that point.

01:30:24Guest:Like we had maybe a year into doing the show and Eddie had already been on.

01:30:29Guest:And so he comes, he sits down next to me.

01:30:30Guest:I'm like, oh, Eddie Brill.

01:30:32Guest:And you don't know who I am, but I'm Marc Maron's producer.

01:30:35Guest:Oh, okay.

01:30:36Guest:And we talked about him doing the podcast.

01:30:38Guest:And I said, oh, that's so cool that he came to see this.

01:30:41Guest:And he's like, oh, I wouldn't miss it.

01:30:42Guest:And I'm like, well, yeah, me, this is my childhood, like massively important to me.

01:30:47Guest:And he's like, well, me too.

01:30:49Guest:Like, I mean, I wasn't a child, but I definitely watched it like I was one.

01:30:54Yeah.

01:30:54Guest:And we were sitting there and they did the whole show just like he used to do it on stage.

01:31:00Guest:And the stage show essentially became Pee Wee's Playhouse.

01:31:04Guest:It was very similar in a lot of ways.

01:31:07Guest:And they had the secret word of the show.

01:31:10Guest:What was it for you?

01:31:11Guest:I think it was show, if I remember right.

01:31:17Guest:Okay.

01:31:17Guest:Because they need a word they say a lot.

01:31:19Guest:They need to start getting a lot of screams.

01:31:23Guest:And I just remember that every time they did it, me and Eddie Brill screamed.

01:31:27Guest:There were no self-conscious choices being made.

01:31:30Guest:It wasn't like, oh, I should play it cool here.

01:31:33Guest:No, no, no.

01:31:33Guest:Everyone was screaming with the show.

01:31:36Guest:Yeah.

01:31:37Guest:Uh, and, uh, and yeah, it was, uh, it was like, he did exactly what he set out to do was like create a magical time.

01:31:44Guest:A thing that was timeless.

01:31:46Guest:Like a friend of ours pointed this out that like Pee Wee's big adventure, it just seems like it's so perfectly magical.

01:31:53Guest:It could exist at any time, anywhere.

01:31:55Guest:You could put that on today and somebody make this today.

01:31:58Guest:Like that's how it would feel.

01:31:59Guest:And, uh, yeah.

01:32:00Guest:What an amazing, unique dude.

01:32:02Marc:If you want all the bonus episodes plus every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for the full Marin by clicking the link in the episode description or by going to WTFpod.com and clicking on WTF+.

01:32:15Marc:This guitar here at the end may sound familiar, but it's different than it was originally.

01:32:20Marc:We got this track from a musician and producer named David Chamberlain.

01:32:24Marc:He took my riff on the Jim Gaffigan episode and added to it.

01:32:27Marc:You can check David's stuff out at RecordLA.com.

01:32:31Marc:Here's the jam.

01:32:32Marc:Amen.

01:33:47Guest:Boomer, Liv, Bucky and LaFonda.

01:33:50Guest:Cat Angels everywhere.

01:33:51Guest:I know I screwed it up once in there.

01:33:54Guest:I know.

01:33:56Guest:I know.