Episode 1456 - George Schlatter

Episode 1456 • Released July 27, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i am mark maron this is my podcast what's going on with you you okay did you get that uh did you get that thing done i hope so i mean you know you talk a lot about it you know you've been talking about it for like god it feels like years i hope uh i hope you you are actually getting it done i i'm not i'm not trying to be a dick

00:00:34Marc:But, you know, at some point you got to quit talking and get on it.

00:00:38Marc:Just give it a try.

00:00:39Marc:So what?

00:00:40Marc:You might fail.

00:00:41Marc:You might not sell it.

00:00:42Marc:It might not go anywhere.

00:00:44Marc:But at least you did it.

00:00:46Marc:Right.

00:00:47Marc:How's that thing?

00:00:47Marc:Did you?

00:00:48Marc:How are your tests?

00:00:49Marc:Did they come out OK?

00:00:50Marc:I'm sorry.

00:00:51Marc:I'm just I'm spitballing here.

00:00:53Marc:How are the people on the farm?

00:00:56Marc:How are the crops?

00:00:58Marc:Is it too hot?

00:00:59Marc:Is all the lettuce dying?

00:01:00Marc:Are the carrots okay?

00:01:02Marc:Are the beets going to make it?

00:01:04Marc:How about the kale?

00:01:05Marc:How sturdy is that kale?

00:01:06Marc:Is it going to make it through this heat?

00:01:08Marc:Do you have water?

00:01:09Marc:All right.

00:01:10Marc:Enough checking in.

00:01:11Marc:Hey, did that bread turn out?

00:01:14Marc:How old was your sourdough culture?

00:01:18Marc:I didn't realize that some of those things like the sourdough starters, some of them go back to the 1800s.

00:01:23Marc:Maybe I guess if someone's been managing that, you've got to have sort of a kind of ongoing legacy of bakers taking care of this jar of mold.

00:01:35Marc:George Schlatter is back.

00:01:37Marc:George Schlatter, it's important.

00:01:39Marc:It's important to get these guys while they're still gettable and, you know, on the right side of the grass.

00:01:47Marc:You know what I'm saying?

00:01:47Marc:He's a legendary television producer and director best known for creating Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In.

00:01:54Marc:We talked a lot about that on episode 848.

00:01:57Marc:He's back to tell more stories about his life and show business.

00:02:01Marc:His new memoir is called Still Laughing.

00:02:03Marc:a life in comedy.

00:02:05Marc:And I'm always happy, though a bit nervous to talk to these guys.

00:02:09Marc:I mean, I think George is in his 90s now, but he's got his he's on top of it.

00:02:15Marc:He's he's quick.

00:02:16Marc:He's clear.

00:02:17Marc:He knows his stories.

00:02:18Marc:And I needed to catch up on I need to fill in some gaps.

00:02:23Marc:about the old days in relation to the comedy store, which used to be a nightclub called Ciro's.

00:02:28Marc:And Schlatter was there at the heyday of Ciro's.

00:02:33Marc:And I just needed to, you know, I needed to talk about the old days.

00:02:39Marc:And, like, this is not nostalgia for me.

00:02:41Marc:This is before my time.

00:02:42Marc:But, like, there's some part of me that really insists in my mind that,

00:02:47Marc:That I am, because of my profession, a legacy to the comics that came before me.

00:02:55Marc:Before I forget, I'm at Largo in Los Angeles tonight.

00:02:58Marc:That's July 27th.

00:02:59Marc:I'll be at the Salt Lake City Wise Guys on August 11th and 12th for four shows.

00:03:04Marc:I'm at Helium in St.

00:03:06Marc:Louis on September 14th through 16th for five shows.

00:03:10Marc:Then I'm at the Las Vegas Wise Guys.

00:03:12Marc:I believe I'm at the one in the Arts District.

00:03:15Marc:We moved it.

00:03:16Marc:From the new one, the big grand opening.

00:03:18Marc:I just want to just want to do my shit.

00:03:20Marc:I don't want to worry about drawing people from the strip.

00:03:23Marc:I just want to work for my fans in the Las Vegas area at the nice small room.

00:03:29Marc:So that's on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.

00:03:33Marc:In October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th.

00:03:36Marc:through 22nd you can go to wtfpod.com for tickets i believe i have dates coming up in bloomington i have to put those up i always like going up there and being in that weird fucking little town for a couple of days it looks like i might even be in there during like every time i'm there it's during the summer so it's just kind of local freaks but it might i might be there while college is actually happening

00:04:03Marc:So it might feel like a different town.

00:04:05Marc:I don't think I've ever been there when it's been alive with with the young folks.

00:04:12Marc:But but I haven't I don't think that's up on the on the thing.

00:04:15Marc:I'll deal with it.

00:04:17Marc:What else?

00:04:17Marc:So, oh, yeah.

00:04:18Marc:Legacy.

00:04:20Marc:Comics.

00:04:20Marc:I've been watching old comics.

00:04:22Marc:And I told you about this.

00:04:23Marc:I talked to Schwader a little bit about it, about Rickles and Rodney specifically.

00:04:28Marc:For some reason, Rickles and Rodney are the guys I've been watching because, you know, I look back at my old appearances on Conan, you know, mostly the panel appearances.

00:04:38Marc:And there's something I always do on those where I'm immediately on the defensive and I'm immediately flailing.

00:04:48Marc:And I started to watch these old TV appearances, especially with guys on panel.

00:04:53Marc:You know, Rickles was always doing the panel, which means he's sitting on the couch.

00:04:58Marc:And I'm not comparing myself, but literally he is immediately drowning.

00:05:04Marc:And it's a very interesting thing about Rickles is that...

00:05:07Marc:A lot of his charm, and I talked to Schwatter about this, is that, you know, he is trying very hard.

00:05:15Marc:And a lot of the jokes, they don't really land.

00:05:18Marc:And he's just he's just spinning around and seething.

00:05:22Marc:Same with Rodney.

00:05:23Marc:You know, Rodney was Dangerfield, was almost incapable of having a regular conversation.

00:05:28Marc:If it strayed from the jokes, you know, there was this panic happening.

00:05:31Marc:And both of them bombed a lot in terms of, you know, what lands one dozen.

00:05:38Marc:But there were so many jokes per minute or in a moment that it just kind of flew by.

00:05:44Marc:You didn't really notice it.

00:05:45Marc:But it was funny to see how many of them didn't land.

00:05:48Marc:It was almost endearing for me.

00:05:51Marc:You know, I know what it feels like to have one, you know, a stinker or just one that just kind of goes flat.

00:05:57Marc:But the thing I started realizing about Don Rickles was

00:06:01Marc:is that a lot of the jokes made no sense.

00:06:06Marc:They just didn't make sense, but there was a timing to it that was great.

00:06:11Marc:And I think that the fact... I don't know that if... I don't think that he gets appreciated as...

00:06:17Marc:like an absurdist on purpose.

00:06:18Marc:But I mean, like I tried to do one last night on stage.

00:06:21Marc:It was just these jokes that don't really add up.

00:06:24Marc:Like I was talking to some guy in the front row because he was, you know, kind of like talking to me.

00:06:29Marc:And I just did like what I thought would be like a good example of that.

00:06:34Marc:Just make it up on the spot.

00:06:35Marc:Just like, hey, where'd you get those shoes?

00:06:38Marc:What'd you have, eggs for breakfast?

00:06:40Marc:Like I remember the first time I saw Don Rickles do some live

00:06:43Marc:special or something he said to a guy in the front row he said did that suit come with two pairs of pants and a yo-yo which that makes a little bit of sense but it doesn't have to make sense if you time it right and I've had moments like that where you do a bit and you know it just it happens in the moment it's timed so perfectly and you don't even realize later when you want to repeat it that the logic on it wasn't quite right and you can never get that timing back and it's just lost to that moment but it feels like it should have fucking killed and

00:07:12Marc:And it did once, but you realize it's only because of the rhythm.

00:07:17Marc:It's the rhythm.

00:07:19Marc:But look, I'm excited to talk to George.

00:07:23Marc:I think you'll enjoy it.

00:07:25Marc:So I've been watching some movies.

00:07:27Marc:Um...

00:07:29Marc:I've been watching these Sidney Lumet movies recently, again, doing my homework, it seems.

00:07:34Marc:When was the last time you watched 12 Angry Men?

00:07:36Marc:Holy shit.

00:07:37Marc:There's two things I want to do that will mean almost nothing to anybody.

00:07:43Marc:And I'm going to work on them, and I'll get back to you with them.

00:07:47Marc:But I really need to work on a George C. Scott impression.

00:07:54Marc:You're going to let him see the board?

00:07:56Marc:!

00:07:58Marc:I want to work on a Lee J. Cobb impression.

00:08:02Marc:These are two angry, volatile actors, but Lee J. Cobb and A Few Good Men is something to behold.

00:08:11Marc:Or not A Few Good Men, 12 Angry Men.

00:08:14Marc:And then I watched, years later, Lumet did Serpico.

00:08:17Marc:Now, again, these are these weird things, this phenomenon of having seen movies many, many years ago

00:08:26Marc:and having something in my head about them that just is not correct.

00:08:29Marc:Like for some reason in my mind, Serpico was too long and it was a little boring and it got caught up in his personal life too much.

00:08:34Marc:And I don't know, I have no idea what that's based on.

00:08:37Marc:It's an amazing movie.

00:08:38Marc:It's not slow.

00:08:40Marc:It doesn't meander.

00:08:41Marc:Pacino's amazing.

00:08:43Marc:And it's a menacing, interesting, gritty New York movie.

00:08:47Marc:But in my mind, it was like too long and they spent too long on the romance.

00:08:52Marc:And I'm like, what movie was I even watching?

00:08:55Marc:I don't know.

00:08:57Marc:The mind is weird as you get older in terms of what, you know, what it holds on to.

00:09:02Marc:I've had a thing that seems to be happening.

00:09:04Marc:I don't know if it's because of my age or that I'm coming up on 60.

00:09:07Marc:But, you know, a lot of people from my past are just sort of like, hey, what's up?

00:09:11Marc:We should talk.

00:09:13Marc:My first girlfriend from college, Sarah, reached out and said,

00:09:22Marc:And I've seen her on and off over the years, but we hadn't really talked.

00:09:25Marc:And she's like, you know, can we just, you know, I really would like to talk to you.

00:09:29Marc:And I'm like, well, this is this is this good or bad?

00:09:33Marc:What about, you know, I mean, I was 19.

00:09:36Marc:I don't even know how old would I have been.

00:09:38Marc:It's like, let's see.

00:09:40Marc:Yeah, I was like 19, 20.

00:09:42Marc:Maybe a little older, maybe 20.

00:09:45Marc:But I was, you know, it was a young version of sweaty, manic, aggravated, insecure me in a relationship that I couldn't handle.

00:09:56Marc:But, you know, we were we've known each other in different phases of our life, but we got on FaceTime and it was just really kind of amazing.

00:10:04Marc:And I don't know if you've experienced this.

00:10:06Marc:I mean, sometimes you know people in passing and sometimes, you know, you spend some genuine time with people enough to know their, have a sense of them in a way that is real.

00:10:18Marc:You know, like these people exist in your heart forever, some people.

00:10:24Marc:And sometimes when you see them, that all kind of just reactivates and it's almost like no time has passed.

00:10:29Marc:And I've talked about this before, but I can't really understand it.

00:10:32Marc:But like,

00:10:33Marc:Like, I mean, it's been Jesus Christ to almost...

00:10:39Marc:40 years since we were a couple and, you know, again, seen her on and off, but like to re-engage with her now, both at the age we're at, it was, it was like, of course I know you, of course I do.

00:10:52Marc:And it felt so familiar and it was nice to talk to her.

00:10:56Marc:And, you know, she laughed the same way.

00:10:58Marc:And then she told me she was working on a memoir and I'm in it and she just wanted to make sure that was okay.

00:11:03Marc:And I'm like, well, what, what, what is it about?

00:11:06Marc:Yeah.

00:11:07Marc:You know, she says just that time in our lives where we were young and creative and you were a little, you know, manic and crazy.

00:11:14Marc:And, you know, and I'm like, oh, OK.

00:11:17Marc:But but nonetheless, we've sort of made some agreement to to reengage people.

00:11:23Marc:the friendship and it's, it's kind of a, a, a beautiful thing.

00:11:27Marc:You know, how many people you have in your life that, you know, you have that with where you, you, you know, them like, like family or like they're, you know, you have this, um, kind of, uh, almost symbiotic, uh,

00:11:41Marc:A relationship that that can be revived to some degree, even now, after so many years, other people, you know, popping up here and there that I had real relationships with.

00:11:52Marc:And you realize, oh, Jesus Christ, I haven't seen this person in 30 years.

00:11:55Marc:And it's kind of a sweet thing.

00:11:57Marc:to re-engage.

00:11:59Marc:And, you know, I'm not particularly nostalgic, and I don't necessarily look at much of my past as being anything but sort of difficult and anxious and sweaty and aggravated.

00:12:10Marc:But the people that were in it for long periods of time or chunks of time, they are a landing place where it's sort of like, yeah, that might have been a difficult time, but, you know, we were close.

00:12:25Marc:And, you know, and you were part of me and I was part of you.

00:12:29Marc:And it's sort of a beautiful thing to rekindle that.

00:12:33Marc:Anyway, let's get back to the funny.

00:12:36Marc:George Schwatter is here.

00:12:37Marc:He's on the show.

00:12:40Marc:I'm going to talk to him right now for you.

00:12:42Marc:His memoir, Still Laughing, A Life in Comedy is now available wherever you get books.

00:12:48Marc:And this is me talking to one of the greats, an important man in the history of comedy, George Schwatter.

00:13:00Guest:You feel good?

00:13:06Guest:I'm fine.

00:13:07Guest:Just fine.

00:13:08Marc:I can't remember the last time.

00:13:10Guest:The last time we were in a different place.

00:13:11Marc:Different place, and you had convinced me we were going to make another laugh in, and I never heard from you.

00:13:18Guest:Yeah, well, we didn't do it.

00:13:21Guest:I mean, that show was 24 hours a day, you know?

00:13:27Marc:They all are.

00:13:28Marc:I don't know.

00:13:28Marc:You know, I'll be honest with you.

00:13:32Marc:Like, if you were working today, the amount of work it takes to put into a TV show, given the media landscape now, would you even do it?

00:13:40Marc:I mean, you work the same amount, but hardly anybody sees anything.

00:13:43Marc:You really got to break through.

00:13:45Guest:Yeah, well, you can.

00:13:46Guest:Yeah, you do.

00:13:47Guest:You do.

00:13:47Guest:You need to do something.

00:13:48Guest:Yeah.

00:13:51Guest:Well, and it's tough today to get anybody's attention.

00:13:54Guest:You know, there's so much junk on.

00:13:56Marc:Yeah.

00:13:56Guest:Do you watch anything?

00:13:59Guest:I watch news mostly.

00:14:00Marc:What, are you just trying to hurt yourself?

00:14:02Guest:No, it's just a habit.

00:14:05Guest:Yeah, habit, and you got to know what's going on, you know.

00:14:07Guest:Sure.

00:14:08Guest:And this election is just consuming me.

00:14:11Marc:Yeah.

00:14:12Marc:I mean, we still got a year, and it's hard to say what the hell's going on.

00:14:15Guest:Well, you know what's going on.

00:14:17Marc:Well, yeah, I know what's going on, but I don't know how it's going to shake out when we come down to the wire.

00:14:21Marc:Seems like there's a lot of wild cards.

00:14:24Guest:Yeah, but you're pretty secure in the knowledge that Trump's going to fuck up something, you know what I mean?

00:14:29Marc:Sure, yeah.

00:14:30Marc:You know, I'm not optimistic that we're going to avoid fascism in America.

00:14:35Marc:I'm not optimistic.

00:14:36Marc:Are we there yet?

00:14:37Marc:I can still watch whatever TV I want, and they haven't put me on a train yet.

00:14:42Marc:So I think we might be not there yet.

00:14:46Guest:There's a lot of stuff to watch.

00:14:49Guest:Now, how's the strike going to go?

00:14:51Marc:Well, they got to make a deal, don't they?

00:14:53Guest:You'd think so.

00:14:54Guest:You'd think so.

00:14:55Guest:When you see the studio heads are making two, three million dollars a year, you'd think maybe there's a few bucks in there they could spread around.

00:15:01Marc:But it's one of those things where it's like, do they, you know, we have to have confidence in the need for actual humans.

00:15:07Marc:I mean, if they can master this technology to where they can just own the rights of a person and then just create some sort of

00:15:15Marc:AI version of that person and have them act for eternity, it seems, I don't know.

00:15:22Guest:This whole AI thing has me befuddled.

00:15:25Guest:I don't understand it.

00:15:26Guest:It's creeping me out.

00:15:27Guest:I don't know how it works and I don't know why.

00:15:29Marc:Well, they can take a few images of you doing some stuff and then they can make a fake you and kind of move you through the world of fiction.

00:15:36Guest:It's like network television.

00:15:39Guest:So it's just a slight difference.

00:15:42Guest:That's the way it used to be in network television.

00:15:45Guest:They'd hire you, they'd own everything, and then tell you what to do.

00:15:49Guest:Right, except that you wouldn't have to be there.

00:15:51Guest:And except when you came through with a breakthrough like Laugh-In, and then you told them.

00:15:56Marc:Well, I was curious about the book.

00:15:57Marc:You know, I've been going through the book.

00:15:59Guest:What do you think?

00:16:00Marc:I like it.

00:16:01Marc:You know, it's like it's telling stories.

00:16:03Marc:That's it.

00:16:03Marc:I mean, you know, it's great.

00:16:05Marc:I mean, that's what people want.

00:16:06Marc:They want to hear the stories.

00:16:08Marc:Now, we talked about a lot of stuff the last time you were here.

00:16:10Marc:Okay.

00:16:12Marc:But, you know, I've become sort of – I need to reengage with a couple things right from the beginning.

00:16:17Guest:Okay.

00:16:18Marc:The sort of – the seeds –

00:16:22Marc:of producing, you know, rooted in, in carny culture.

00:16:27Marc:Yes.

00:16:27Marc:Yeah.

00:16:28Marc:Like I, I had no idea Ed McMahon was a carnival barker.

00:16:31Guest:Oh yeah.

00:16:32Guest:Oh, that's what he did.

00:16:33Guest:Really?

00:16:33Guest:Sure.

00:16:34Guest:Like on the road.

00:16:35Guest:Oh yeah.

00:16:35Guest:He would do it once in a while for me, you know, ladies and gentlemen, step right up, you know, your body will naturally follow, you know?

00:16:42Marc:Yeah.

00:16:43Marc:But that's, but that was a, I guess that was pre-television pitch work.

00:16:48Guest:Sure.

00:16:48Guest:That's what it was.

00:16:49Guest:It was very good.

00:16:50Guest:I'd love to have him do that carny talk all the time.

00:16:54Marc:Well, what was your experience in the carnivals?

00:16:56Marc:Did you work at one?

00:16:57Guest:Well, kind of.

00:16:59Guest:It's very strange.

00:17:01Guest:Carnivals had boxers and wrestlers, and you could follow the carnival around.

00:17:05Guest:You get $25 to go three rounds with the wrestler or three minutes with the boxer.

00:17:09Marc:Someone from the audience.

00:17:10Guest:Yeah.

00:17:11Guest:And so you could go in, they would pay you $25.

00:17:14Guest:Yeah.

00:17:15Guest:My brother and I used to follow the carnivals around because it was easy money.

00:17:19Guest:And, you know, they got on to us and they brought in a couple of ringers that made it much more difficult.

00:17:26Marc:Oh, because you could beat them?

00:17:27Guest:Yeah.

00:17:28Guest:But we were fast and moved around.

00:17:30Guest:But then they brought in some ringers and it was tough.

00:17:32Guest:So they ruined your racket?

00:17:33Guest:Oh, I learned more in three minutes than I'd learned in three years, you know?

00:17:36Marc:What was the carnivals like when they were touring at that time?

00:17:39Marc:They had the freak show, they had the rides?

00:17:41Guest:They had the freak on the perimeter of the carnival.

00:17:44Guest:They had the freak show, and then they had the sideshows.

00:17:46Guest:They called them sideshows.

00:17:48Guest:But in the mainstream, you had the main features, the games, whatever.

00:17:53Guest:But then on the periphery, they had the sideshows.

00:17:55Guest:They had the hairless woman and all of this, you know.

00:18:00Marc:And the other thing we talked about, but I didn't get into, because I spend about three or four days a week at Ciro's.

00:18:06Guest:Really?

00:18:07Marc:Yeah.

00:18:08Marc:I work at the comedy store almost every night.

00:18:10Guest:That's where I grew up.

00:18:11Marc:Because at the time, you were working at Ciro's.

00:18:14Guest:Yeah.

00:18:14Guest:Boy, that's a long time ago.

00:18:16Marc:But that was after the original Ciro's, correct?

00:18:18Guest:No, the original Ciro's was where I worked, and I was a greeter.

00:18:23Guest:Yeah.

00:18:24Guest:It got out that I'd been a bouncer.

00:18:27Marc:Yeah, but you don't like that word.

00:18:29Guest:No, so I released the story that I had been an executive in charge of emergency departures.

00:18:35Guest:And Jolene says it still sounds like a bouncer.

00:18:38Guest:But I got over all of that and I went to work in Vegas.

00:18:42Marc:But Ciro's at that time, because I get mildly obsessed with it here and there because I'm in that structure every night, and the structure itself is not that different than it was.

00:18:52Guest:A little bit.

00:18:53Guest:It is?

00:18:54Marc:Yeah.

00:18:54Guest:But there were still two rooms, right?

00:18:56Guest:Well, no.

00:18:57Guest:We added on the back room as a convention room, as a party room, and we had that wall that would slide open so you could put the big show in the main room and have a private party in that back room and then open that wall up and the private party could see the main attraction.

00:19:11Marc:So what's the original room now was the convention room?

00:19:14Guest:Yeah.

00:19:15Marc:Okay.

00:19:16Marc:And what was upstairs there?

00:19:17Guest:That was the silhouette room.

00:19:18Guest:That was for private parties and things.

00:19:21Guest:And then, so it was just a small.

00:19:23Guest:That's the belly room.

00:19:24Guest:Party room, yeah.

00:19:25Marc:Yeah.

00:19:25Marc:And then you had the offices.

00:19:26Guest:In the office.

00:19:27Guest:My office was upstairs.

00:19:29Guest:But Ciro's was probably one of the classiest nightclubs around.

00:19:34Marc:They had food, right?

00:19:35Guest:Yeah.

00:19:36Marc:Full operating kitchen.

00:19:37Guest:That's right.

00:19:37Guest:And in New York, you had the Copacabana and the Latin Quarter.

00:19:40Guest:Sure.

00:19:41Guest:And in Los Angeles, you had Ciro's.

00:19:42Guest:And then down the street, you had Macombo.

00:19:44Guest:And then eventually, they opened up the Crescendo.

00:19:47Marc:Now, what was the mob involvement?

00:19:50Guest:The mob.

00:19:51Guest:It's such an ugly word, isn't it?

00:19:53Marc:Well, the fellas.

00:19:54Marc:My grandmother used to call them the boys.

00:19:56Guest:What was the boys?

00:19:56Guest:The boys is nicer than the mob.

00:19:59Guest:The boys involvement.

00:20:00Guest:Well, it was not as strong as it was when Vegas really opened up.

00:20:06Guest:Because in Vegas, you had the Frontier Hotel and the Desert Inn and a couple of other hotels.

00:20:13Guest:Then they really moved in on Vegas.

00:20:15Guest:But at that time, at the time of Ciro's, you had people that you would do favors for.

00:20:23Guest:Right.

00:20:24Marc:But who was the guy in charge of L.A.?

00:20:26Marc:Mickey Cohen?

00:20:27Guest:Yeah.

00:20:28Marc:And you knew that guy?

00:20:29Guest:Yeah.

00:20:30Guest:And what happened is, I don't know whether it's in the book or not, but he had a haberdashery store.

00:20:38Guest:Yeah.

00:20:38Guest:That was the front?

00:20:40Guest:Yeah.

00:20:40Guest:Well, what would happen is every 10 days or two weeks, they'd deliver a box, and the box had tissue paper in it.

00:20:46Guest:And I'd give them $1,000, and they'd go away.

00:20:49Marc:So that was your protection money.

00:20:53Guest:Yeah, and they never figured out where he got his money.

00:20:56Guest:a van come by his home every monday morning yeah and pick up the trash trying to find out where he got the money yeah and they could never figure it out i should have asked me well you were probably just one of many right i was one of money one of money yeah uh but it was a different it was a different structure then you know and and

00:21:17Guest:You knew those guys, and eventually one guy came to see me, and he was one of the questionable-looking people, and he said, we want a meeting with you.

00:21:29Guest:I said, fine, what do you want?

00:21:30Guest:We want to do something for you.

00:21:32Guest:We're grateful to you for what you've done for us.

00:21:34Guest:We want to do something for you.

00:21:36Guest:And I said, no, I'm fine.

00:21:38Guest:Hey, no, be serious.

00:21:39Guest:What do you want?

00:21:40Guest:I don't want anything.

00:21:41Guest:I'm fine.

00:21:41Guest:Were you afraid?

00:21:42Guest:No.

00:21:42Guest:Well, it depends on who's asking you.

00:21:45Guest:When this guy's asking, he says, listen, who don't yous like?

00:21:50Guest:And you get a little shiver when somebody asks you that.

00:21:53Guest:You know that they could do damage to whoever it was.

00:21:56Guest:But when I married Jolene, Jolene said she wasn't going to marry me because she said I'd probably be dead before I was 30, you know, with some of the people I was hanging with.

00:22:05Marc:Did you believe that?

00:22:06Guest:Well—

00:22:07Guest:Kind of.

00:22:08Guest:I mean, I knew a lot of people.

00:22:10Guest:But you weren't.

00:22:11Guest:You were on the... I was.

00:22:15Guest:They would come to me for a favor or to do something, to make a call or to introduce somebody.

00:22:21Guest:But I was never in that inner circle.

00:22:22Guest:But it was a different time then.

00:22:25Guest:And it sounds like it was all one guy.

00:22:29Guest:It wasn't.

00:22:29Guest:It was a whole society.

00:22:31Guest:It was a group of different people.

00:22:33Marc:But there was one guy at the top.

00:22:35Guest:Maybe.

00:22:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:37Guest:It was the guy to call.

00:22:38Guest:All I knew is there was somebody to call if I had to help somebody.

00:22:43Marc:Right.

00:22:44Marc:Now, when I've met actual killers in my past who were involved with the boys, I mean, they're scary guys.

00:22:55Marc:Yeah.

00:22:56Marc:I mean, you could feel that.

00:22:57Marc:It wasn't glamorous.

00:22:58Marc:I mean, there was a moment there where you realized that they'll look in their I'm in business, right?

00:23:03Guest:But the guys that could hurt you were from out of town.

00:23:06Guest:Oh, really?

00:23:06Guest:They'd bring them in?

00:23:07Guest:Yeah.

00:23:07Guest:There was never a guy that local guy wouldn't do.

00:23:10Marc:Oh, so you wouldn't ever know the guy that was coming at you.

00:23:12Guest:Never, never know.

00:23:12Guest:Never see him coming, you know?

00:23:14Marc:Oh, no.

00:23:15Guest:Yeah.

00:23:16Guest:It was a colorful time.

00:23:17Guest:It was not one guy.

00:23:20Guest:It was a whole society.

00:23:22Guest:Sure.

00:23:22Guest:And they all knew each other, and you knew all of them.

00:23:24Guest:Yeah.

00:23:25Guest:You just didn't want to have any trouble, that's all.

00:23:27Marc:So were you there when Sammy Davis came back after his accident with his new eye?

00:23:35Guest:Sammy was coming into Los Angeles for a meeting with me.

00:23:37Guest:He was coming in from Vegas.

00:23:39Guest:Yeah.

00:23:39Guest:And he took a wrong turn, and he had that accident.

00:23:42Guest:Really?

00:23:42Guest:Yeah.

00:23:43Guest:And so then everybody went up to see him, and eventually he got all healed except for the eye.

00:23:51Guest:Yeah.

00:23:52Guest:Finally, he could move and dance, whatever, and he was going to open in Ciro's again.

00:23:57Guest:Yeah.

00:23:57Guest:And it was a major event to get Sammy.

00:24:00Guest:And when he came out on stage, he came out on stage with like a 20-foot knee slide, you know?

00:24:06Guest:Yeah.

00:24:06Guest:And when he came out on stage and started to dance, sitting on the corner of the stage in the audience was Frank and Gregory Peck, and they were playing cards.

00:24:14Guest:Yeah.

00:24:16Guest:Just blew them away.

00:24:17Guest:But...

00:24:18Guest:The other time when Sammy opened at Ciro's, Janice Page was the biggest star on Broadway, and so we had her for the opening act.

00:24:27Guest:And Sammy came out and looked at that audience, and it was all the stars in town waiting to see Janice Page.

00:24:32Guest:He took one look at that audience, and he did an hour and ten minutes.

00:24:36Guest:He never got off stage, and the audience went crazy.

00:24:39Guest:Yeah, and that was in the main room.

00:24:41Guest:That was in the main room.

00:24:42Guest:And so I called my boss, Jake Kosloff, at the Frontier Hotel.

00:24:47Guest:And I said, Sammy Davis last night exploded on a Sunset Tribute.

00:24:50Guest:It was a major major.

00:24:51Marc:So you were in Vegas already.

00:24:52Guest:I was working.

00:24:52Guest:I was booking the shows at the Frontier and at Ciro's.

00:24:55Guest:Okay.

00:24:55Guest:So I said, Sammy opened it.

00:24:57Guest:It was a major event.

00:24:59Guest:I want to book him into the frontier.

00:25:01Guest:Jake says, well, you know, we don't have a lot of coloreds at that point.

00:25:05Guest:And I said, you got to trust me.

00:25:07Guest:This was an explosion.

00:25:08Guest:He said, well, I booked him for a weekend.

00:25:10Guest:I said, no, no, no.

00:25:11Guest:I booked him for four weeks.

00:25:13Guest:And there was a long pause on the phone.

00:25:15Guest:You did what?

00:25:17Guest:I said, Jake, trust me.

00:25:18Guest:If we don't play him, he's going to go to the Macombo.

00:25:20Guest:Yeah.

00:25:21Guest:So we booked him for four weeks, and then he exploded.

00:25:25Guest:He absolutely just, everybody had to see Sammy Davis.

00:25:28Guest:And we became very, very, very good friends.

00:25:30Marc:For his whole life?

00:25:31Guest:Yeah, for the rest of it, yeah.

00:25:33Guest:And he was magic on stage.

00:25:36Guest:Nobody today comes close to what Sammy Davis did then.

00:25:40Marc:I know even if you watch him, you know, like if I watch him on film or, you know, old bits of his, he could do anything.

00:25:49Guest:Yeah, and he did it.

00:25:50Guest:Yeah, he was funny, he was quick.

00:25:52Guest:He sang, he danced, he did impressions, he played the piano, he played the drums, played everything in the orchestra.

00:25:58Marc:And that's a perfect act for Vegas.

00:26:00Guest:Yeah.

00:26:01Guest:And Vegas just adored him.

00:26:03Guest:The only problem with Sammy is he would never get off.

00:26:06Guest:Once he saw that audience at Ciro's, he just wasn't going to get off stage.

00:26:10Marc:And he was into the mob for a lot of bread and everything, right?

00:26:15Guest:He owed a lot of money.

00:26:16Guest:Yeah.

00:26:17Guest:And when you owed money to some of those people, you did favors for those people.

00:26:24Guest:And Sammy could never pay the money back that he owed, so he would work for them.

00:26:32Marc:That whole element of show business life at that time when the boys controlled a lot of stuff, it's unbelievable to me.

00:26:42Marc:That you couldn't even, like it must have been hanging over you the whole time.

00:26:45Marc:I don't even know how you functioned.

00:26:46Guest:You just didn't make a problem.

00:26:51Guest:You avoided making trouble.

00:26:53Guest:It sounds like it was a movie, right?

00:26:58Guest:It wasn't like that.

00:26:59Guest:It was quiet.

00:27:00Guest:When somebody made a call, you answered the phone, and you had a chat, and then it went away.

00:27:07Marc:That was that.

00:27:07Marc:You did what they said.

00:27:08Guest:You get to live.

00:27:10Guest:They didn't say like that.

00:27:11Guest:They made suggestions.

00:27:13Yeah.

00:27:14Guest:You know, the movies have never really captured that era.

00:27:19Marc:Well, that's not as exciting as threats in a movie, right?

00:27:25Guest:Yeah, they had to have threats.

00:27:27Guest:They had to have guns and all of that stuff.

00:27:30Guest:It wasn't like that.

00:27:31Guest:That's because there was an understanding.

00:27:33Guest:Everyone knew.

00:27:33Guest:Everyone knew everybody.

00:27:35Guest:Yeah.

00:27:36Guest:And you knew who to call and you knew who not to call.

00:27:38Guest:It was just a different time then.

00:27:40Marc:Well, that's what I find fascinating about Hollywood in general, that it was a community.

00:27:45Marc:It was, you know, everyone did know everybody, you know, and all the way through, up through the studio heads.

00:27:52Marc:It felt like a small town.

00:27:54Marc:It was an industry town.

00:27:56Guest:Well, the stars all were under contract to the studios.

00:27:58Guest:Originally, right?

00:28:00Guest:Originally.

00:28:00Guest:And the studios arranged their dates and where they lived and where they had dinner and what they did.

00:28:05Guest:And it was a much more controlled environment then.

00:28:08Guest:You know, it was much neater.

00:28:11Marc:Yeah.

00:28:11Marc:Well, I mean, it's interesting that you started your career as a booker.

00:28:15Marc:Basically.

00:28:16Guest:Yeah, before that, yeah.

00:28:17Guest:The doorman, yeah, the bouncer.

00:28:19Guest:The greeter.

00:28:19Marc:The greeter.

00:28:20Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:21Marc:But it was booking acts.

00:28:22Marc:Yes.

00:28:22Marc:So you were able to get a sense or you had a natural sense of, you know, who was going to pop and who was the star.

00:28:29Guest:And I would go meet with them and...

00:28:31Guest:And everybody from Sammy Davis and Peggy Lee and Lena Horne.

00:28:37Guest:And I knew them all.

00:28:41Guest:And I would go schmooze them.

00:28:43Guest:One of my favorites was Mae West.

00:28:45Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:28:46Guest:Went to Vegas and convinced Mae West to come in and play Syros.

00:28:50Marc:Oh, really?

00:28:50Guest:Yeah.

00:28:51Marc:Would she do a stand-up act and singing?

00:28:52Guest:It was kind of like that, but she was the most colorful woman.

00:28:56Guest:And she was old by then, right?

00:28:58Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:28:59Guest:Well, yeah, she was old, but she was still a rascal.

00:29:03Guest:She told me once, she said, young man, I'm going to warn you, don't fall for me.

00:29:07Guest:And it was like, she was a rascal.

00:29:16Guest:Who owned Ciro's when you were there?

00:29:18Guest:Well, it was always open to question.

00:29:20Guest:Herman Hover was the owner of Record, and he was the visible owner.

00:29:24Guest:There were other people that had interests, but that was all very quiet.

00:29:27Guest:But Herman Hover was the owner of Record.

00:29:30Guest:What does that imply to you?

00:29:33Guest:Well...

00:29:33Guest:Well, Herman was always short of money.

00:29:38Guest:Okay.

00:29:39Guest:So he got the suggestions, too.

00:29:41Guest:Yeah, so he got the suggestions.

00:29:42Guest:So I would go pick up a check from somebody.

00:29:47Guest:No, check.

00:29:47Guest:It wasn't a check.

00:29:48Guest:I'd go pick up some cash.

00:29:49Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:50Guest:Everything was cash then, you know.

00:29:51Marc:It's funny because I got out of, you know, Mitzi Shores passed away, but, like, they were cleaning out her stuff.

00:29:56Marc:And I actually have a matchbox from Cirrus that she had, you know, that it just, I guess she picked it up.

00:30:02Guest:Yeah.

00:30:03Guest:Well, Mitzi, yeah.

00:30:04Guest:And Macombo was the other club.

00:30:06Guest:Where was that?

00:30:07Guest:That was right down the street from Syros.

00:30:08Guest:And then in between was the Crescendo, which was— Oh, on Sunset?

00:30:12Guest:That was the one Billy Eckstein owned the Crescendo but could not be the owner because he was black.

00:30:19Marc:Well, that was an issue with Sammy's house, too, right?

00:30:22Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:30:23Guest:Well, that was, yeah.

00:30:24Guest:It was a color line then, you know.

00:30:27Guest:It was a serious, serious color line.

00:30:28Guest:But Sammy Davis broke all those rules.

00:30:31Guest:More than any other black performer, I'd imagine.

00:30:33Guest:Well, Nat Cole was a very classy, classy man.

00:30:38Guest:And Lena Horne was an elegant woman, you know.

00:30:41Guest:But Sammy, Sammy just crossed all the barriers.

00:30:44Guest:And you were part of that.

00:30:46Guest:I was, yeah.

00:30:48Marc:In terms of facilitating it or championing him early on.

00:30:51Guest:I was, I was, and then we did, when Sammy, Sammy made a comeback.

00:30:56Guest:And we booked every, I tried to sell a show with Sammy and I couldn't sell it.

00:31:01Guest:And it was just.

00:31:03Guest:To who?

00:31:04Guest:To NBC or anybody.

00:31:05Guest:And then Sammy, they called me and I finally wound up selling a one-hour special with Sammy.

00:31:15Guest:And they called me and they said, Sammy won't be able to do the show.

00:31:17Guest:I said, why?

00:31:18Guest:He said, he's got throat cancer.

00:31:20Guest:And I said, yeah.

00:31:21Guest:And they said, but he won't be able to do it.

00:31:23Guest:And I said, Sam, I went to Sam, now look, here's the problem.

00:31:27Guest:I have sold a one-hour show with you.

00:31:29Guest:And I'm going to do that show.

00:31:31Guest:Don't make me make an announcement.

00:31:33Guest:And he said, I'll be there.

00:31:35Guest:I said, now, Sam, I'm serious.

00:31:38Marc:You learned how to make a suggestion.

00:31:40Guest:Don't fool with me, Sammy.

00:31:41Guest:I sold this show.

00:31:43Guest:But when they announced that he had throat cancer, everybody in the world wanted to be on the show, and they were.

00:31:48Guest:Everybody, Frank and Dean and Sammy, everybody wanted to do the show.

00:31:51Marc:Was that the 60th anniversary show?

00:31:53Guest:Yeah.

00:31:53Guest:And then he came out, and everybody.

00:31:56Guest:I mean, the tape of that show is just heaven when you see it.

00:31:59Marc:Now, if you're so close to Sammy, I mean, there were these times where, you know, he seemed to be... Go on.

00:32:06Marc:Well, he just seemed to be a searcher, right?

00:32:07Marc:So he becomes a Jew, right, at some point.

00:32:11Marc:And then there was a strange involvement with Anton LaVey in the satanic church.

00:32:15Marc:What was that about?

00:32:16Guest:He was even black for a while.

00:32:18Guest:Yeah.

00:32:19Guest:Well, Sammy tried everything.

00:32:21Guest:He was a member of everything.

00:32:24Guest:And nobody cared.

00:32:26Guest:See, Sammy crossed all the barriers.

00:32:28Guest:Sammy crossed all the lines.

00:32:29Guest:He would be there, and he was socially, professionally acceptable.

00:32:35Guest:Not acceptable, he was desirable.

00:32:38Guest:And he did favors for a lot of people.

00:32:40Guest:Sammy was always broke, but he did favors for a lot of people.

00:32:44Guest:Somebody would have an event or a fundraiser or something, Sammy would be there and perform him.

00:32:48Marc:What's a rare thing, like, and I don't know that people fully realize it, that, you know, what he had, the capital he had was his performance, right?

00:32:55Guest:So he could always sell out a room, always generate money.

00:32:59Guest:Well, when he was a child, they would have little Sammy go out and perform.

00:33:02Guest:And vaudeville with his father, right?

00:33:03Guest:That's right, vaudeville.

00:33:04Guest:And then as he grew up, he got more and more.

00:33:06Guest:It became the Will Maston trio.

00:33:09Guest:Then it was the Will Maston trio with Sammy Davis, then starring Sammy Davis, and then starring Sammy Davis and the Will Maston.

00:33:15Guest:Did you know his father?

00:33:16Guest:Yeah.

00:33:16Marc:Because his father kind of ran him, right?

00:33:19Guest:No, Will.

00:33:19Guest:Yeah, Will.

00:33:20Guest:His uncle.

00:33:20Guest:Uncle Will wasn't his real uncle.

00:33:22Guest:And Will was always shocked.

00:33:28Guest:He said to me once, he said, Sammy, you're doing impressions of white people.

00:33:32Guest:I said, yeah, you can't do that, Sammy.

00:33:34Guest:And Will Manson was kind of his— He was doing whiteface.

00:33:38Guest:You can't do that, Sammy.

00:33:39Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:40Guest:Sammy would go out and do impressions with everybody.

00:33:42Guest:Sammy crossed all barriers.

00:33:45Guest:But that performance was just unbelievable.

00:33:48Guest:We don't have anybody like that today.

00:33:50Marc:I don't know who we have today.

00:33:52Marc:I find myself lately, and I don't know why, and thank you for the nice email about my special.

00:33:58Marc:I appreciate that.

00:33:58Marc:It was wonderful.

00:33:59Marc:Thank you so much.

00:34:00Marc:But I seem to be watching a lot of Don Rickles, and I can't stop it.

00:34:05Marc:And I realize something about him, and just tell me if I'm wrong, because I never realized it before.

00:34:09Marc:You know, this was a guy that would cross all lines with the with with put downs.

00:34:14Marc:Right.

00:34:15Marc:That was his bit.

00:34:16Marc:Yeah.

00:34:17Marc:But, you know, the the idea was that the reason he could do it, he was an equal opportunity offender.

00:34:22Marc:He could make fun of everybody.

00:34:24Marc:But I realized something the other day that the other reason why people took it is that he was never doing well.

00:34:31Marc:Like his character is immediately flailing.

00:34:33Marc:Yeah.

00:34:34Marc:Like, he's immediately like... And five out of the ten jokes would fall flat, so there was a desperation at the core of the character that made him vulnerable somehow.

00:34:45Guest:You mean he was like an open wound.

00:34:47Guest:Kinda.

00:34:48Guest:That's right, but the...

00:34:49Guest:Don Rickles played a place on La Cienega.

00:34:54Guest:I forget the name of it.

00:34:57Guest:And we took Frank Sinatra in to see him for the first time.

00:35:00Guest:And Rickles was nervous as hell, you know.

00:35:03Guest:And he started on Frank, and Frank loved him.

00:35:06Guest:His relationship with Frank Sinatra is what broke all the barriers.

00:35:09Guest:For him.

00:35:10Guest:Yeah.

00:35:10Guest:And show business.

00:35:12Marc:Because no one talked to Frank like that, I imagine.

00:35:14Guest:Nobody.

00:35:14Guest:No, you could not.

00:35:15Guest:Forget it, you know.

00:35:17Guest:He talked to—so he started doing things about Frank and got away with it.

00:35:21Guest:Yeah.

00:35:21Guest:Then all of it just kind of followed.

00:35:23Guest:Right.

00:35:24Guest:Where it was acceptable.

00:35:26Guest:Yeah.

00:35:28Guest:He was lucky, and he was gifted in the fact that he had a very agile mind, and he knew all the names, and he made fun of them all.

00:35:38Guest:But the key to Rickles' success was his relationship with Frank.

00:35:42Marc:Yeah, and you had a relationship with Frank, right?

00:35:44Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:35:45Marc:You know who I talked to back also?

00:35:48Marc:I had Dreesen come on and just tell mob stories.

00:35:53Marc:Mob stories.

00:35:54Marc:I'm sorry.

00:35:54Marc:The story's about the fellas.

00:35:56Guest:Yeah.

00:35:57Guest:About the boys.

00:35:58Guest:Yeah, about the boys.

00:36:00Guest:But how long— So Dreesner was telling you all those stories?

00:36:02Marc:Yeah, because I talked—we were at the comedy store, and he's telling me these things.

00:36:06Marc:There's a couple in particular, one about Johnny Carson and another one.

00:36:11Marc:But I said, you can tell these stories on my show because they're all dead.

00:36:14Marc:No one's going to come.

00:36:16Guest:Why?

00:36:16Guest:Think about that.

00:36:18Guest:But no one's going to come get you.

00:36:20Guest:Yeah.

00:36:21Guest:Well, he was careful.

00:36:23Guest:So there's some stories you tell.

00:36:25Guest:Yeah.

00:36:25Guest:And there's some stories you tell and some stories you don't tell.

00:36:28Guest:Sure.

00:36:28Guest:And then some stories you forget.

00:36:30Guest:Yeah.

00:36:31Guest:You have to.

00:36:31Guest:Yeah.

00:36:31Guest:You got to play by the rules.

00:36:33Guest:And how far back do you go with Frank?

00:36:35Guest:I was very, very young, and I had a job in the mailroom at MCA.

00:36:42Guest:Before Cirrus?

00:36:43Guest:Yeah.

00:36:44Guest:And I was written $25 a week.

00:36:46Guest:And so I was the only guy there that was not in a black suit.

00:36:51Marc:Was that a management company, an agency?

00:36:53Guest:MCA, yeah, it was mostly bands.

00:36:54Guest:Yeah.

00:36:55Guest:Before the record company.

00:36:57Guest:That's right.

00:36:58Guest:And so one day I'm delivering some mail to Larry Barnett's office, which is at the end.

00:37:04Guest:It still is there, that building.

00:37:07Guest:Universal?

00:37:08Guest:Yeah.

00:37:09Guest:And so Sinatra came in the front door, and everybody in the building followed him into Larry Barnett's office.

00:37:17Guest:And I was just standing there.

00:37:18Guest:I was very, very young.

00:37:20Guest:And, uh, and so they, they gave me his contract and they, and he signed his contract and handed the contract to me.

00:37:27Guest:Yeah.

00:37:28Guest:Cause I was obvious.

00:37:30Guest:And, uh, which was a bit intimidating and, uh, here.

00:37:33Guest:And so he handed me the case.

00:37:34Guest:Is this okay?

00:37:35Yeah.

00:37:36Guest:And I said, yeah.

00:37:37Guest:He never paid MCA any commission.

00:37:39Guest:They made money just by handling it.

00:37:42Guest:So he says, is this okay?

00:37:43Guest:And I said, yeah.

00:37:45Guest:So he signs the contract and gives it to me.

00:37:47Guest:And I want to tell you, boy, the humidity in my Speedos soared, right?

00:37:53Guest:And they were all looking at me like I must know something.

00:37:56Guest:I must be connected or something.

00:37:57Guest:And he turned around and he looked at me.

00:37:59Guest:I'll never forget.

00:37:59Guest:He looked at me and he said, I have ties older than this guy.

00:38:03Guest:Yeah.

00:38:03Guest:And that was my first meeting with Frank, which continued periodically up to and including having to do his eulogy.

00:38:12Guest:Barbara asked me, would I do his eulogy?

00:38:15Guest:And I said, Barbara, please, that's the tough.

00:38:18Guest:She said, no, you do it.

00:38:19Guest:So I said, OK, as long as I don't have to follow Gregory Peck, that's fine.

00:38:23Marc:What?

00:38:24Marc:Gregory Peck was Frank's best friend, or what?

00:38:26Guest:Well, no, it was just, you know, you don't want to follow Gregory Peck with a eulogy.

00:38:29Guest:How do you do that?

00:38:30Marc:But you're funny.

00:38:31Marc:Did you get some laughs?

00:38:32Guest:Well, no.

00:38:33Guest:Oh, you didn't?

00:38:34Guest:No.

00:38:37Guest:Eventually, I did.

00:38:38Guest:I was doing a... So I went to... I went to talk.

00:38:43Guest:I went to introduce him, and sure enough, here's Gregory Peck, and then here's me.

00:38:48Guest:But...

00:38:48Guest:Between Gregory Peck and me, there was the bishop.

00:38:51Guest:Oh, good.

00:38:52Guest:And I was now I really panicked.

00:38:54Guest:Right.

00:38:55Guest:I couldn't follow Gregory Peck or God.

00:38:56Guest:Right.

00:38:57Guest:And so I looked at the bishop and I said, thank you, your honor.

00:39:01Guest:Yeah.

00:39:03Guest:And everybody in the place just absolutely cracked up.

00:39:06Guest:And I explained that I'd talked to a lot more judges than bishops.

00:39:10Guest:Yeah.

00:39:10Guest:Well, that broke the ice until the whole event then became kind of fun.

00:39:14Guest:And I kept thinking Frank was going to sit up in that box and say, come on, crazy, get off, right?

00:39:21Guest:Yeah.

00:39:21Guest:But he was an event.

00:39:23Guest:He was a force field of energy and talent.

00:39:26Guest:And he did more benefits.

00:39:28Guest:He was at more benefits than chicken.

00:39:30Guest:I mean, he was just every time there was a benefit, Frank would show up and do it.

00:39:34Marc:So you produced the 80 years thing.

00:39:38Marc:And how long before he died after that?

00:39:41Guest:Not long.

00:39:42Guest:He was in bad shape.

00:39:44Guest:What did he have, cancer?

00:39:45Guest:Yeah.

00:39:46Guest:And also, you know, I mean, the man had ingested a lot of spirits.

00:39:52Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:39:53Guest:And I'm surprised that that bladder and whatever ever held up at all.

00:39:58Guest:And what was your relationship, though, with Dino?

00:40:01Guest:Well, Dean worshipped Frank and would do whatever Frank said, and that relationship was Dean, Frank, Sammy, and Jilly, and Jilly was the other member there.

00:40:14Marc:Yeah, Frank's guy.

00:40:15Guest:Yeah, Frank's guy.

00:40:18Guest:The other artists would show up at a benefit, a concert, and there would be 10 different artists, and each one would have an entourage of 6, 8, 10, 12 people, except Frank.

00:40:27Guest:Frank showed up with Jilly.

00:40:28Guest:Yeah, that was his guy.

00:40:30Guest:All the protection Frank needed was Jilly.

00:40:33Guest:Yeah, was he a good guy?

00:40:34Guest:Jilly?

00:40:35Guest:Yeah.

00:40:35Guest:Adorable.

00:40:36Guest:Yeah.

00:40:37Marc:I've only heard of him.

00:40:38Marc:I can't even picture him.

00:40:39Marc:I don't know what he looks like.

00:40:41Guest:He had round hands.

00:40:44Guest:Yeah.

00:40:44Guest:He had no knuckles left at all.

00:40:46Guest:Oh, really?

00:40:46Guest:Which made you some...

00:40:48Guest:Imagine what had caused those ions to be round.

00:40:52Guest:And Jilly was, he was Frank's best friend.

00:40:55Guest:Frank adored him.

00:40:56Guest:And he would have done anything for Jilly.

00:40:58Marc:In talking about the color lines, you know, there was something we didn't really cover the last time that you talk about in the book a bit.

00:41:06Marc:And it's that, at what point did you feel like it was the right cultural moment to try to create a soul, the black laughing?

00:41:17Guest:There was just nothing.

00:41:18Guest:We couldn't put black people, black people couldn't rent homes.

00:41:21Guest:They couldn't appear on television or whatever.

00:41:23Marc:But this is what, 1968?

00:41:25Guest:And I decided I was going to do an all-black variety show.

00:41:29Marc:And this is before Norman Lear was even thinking like this.

00:41:33Guest:Yeah, well, it was on the bridge.

00:41:35Guest:Then Norman.

00:41:36Guest:I also worked with Red Fox, which was another no-no, you know, because I did a movie with Red Fox called Norman Is That You?

00:41:44Guest:And I said, I'll book Red Fox.

00:41:46Guest:I said, you can't book Red Fox.

00:41:47Guest:He's obscene.

00:41:48Guest:I said, I will book Red Fox and tape everything and then just edit only what I can use.

00:41:53Guest:And he was very funny.

00:41:54Marc:The interesting thing about Red Fox is I got a lot of the old party records, you know, and I know the filthy Red Fox.

00:41:59Marc:But, like, when he does Sanford and Son...

00:42:01Marc:where he's clean and he locks into that character.

00:42:03Marc:It's one of the funniest characters ever on TV.

00:42:05Guest:Yes, it was.

00:42:06Guest:Yes, it was.

00:42:06Marc:What happened with the Black Laugh-In?

00:42:08Guest:Well, the Black Laugh-In was a major hit.

00:42:12Guest:What happened was it was all black, all black performers.

00:42:16Guest:The only thing I did, I had a white drummer just for some weird reason.

00:42:20Guest:And the black laughing went on.

00:42:23Guest:We ran it for a black audience, and it was a major hit.

00:42:26Guest:The black audience absolutely went crazy for this movie.

00:42:30Guest:And NBC would not buy it for a series.

00:42:35Guest:And I said, why?

00:42:36Guest:We have an option.

00:42:37Guest:They said, because they could never cancel it.

00:42:39Guest:They said there would be such an outrage if they bought it as a series and then canceled it.

00:42:44Guest:They couldn't stand that kind of pressure.

00:42:45Guest:So I took the pilot, the Soul, and the Wayan Brothers.

00:42:50Guest:Don Rio was working with the Wayan Brothers.

00:42:51Guest:I took it to the Wayan Brothers.

00:42:53Guest:And they did the... Living Color?

00:42:56Guest:Yeah.

00:42:56Guest:And that was, what, the 80s?

00:42:58Guest:Yeah.

00:42:59Guest:And it was huge because that...

00:43:02Guest:style of humor, going back to minstrel, you know, was funny.

00:43:06Guest:And they not only said funny things, they said things in a funny way.

00:43:10Guest:And the fact that they were black, the fact that they were oppressed and all those things, and they could talk about it, it was funny.

00:43:19Guest:Pearl Bailey was funny, you know.

00:43:21Marc:Sure.

00:43:22Marc:But, like, at the time when you did the movie and then later when you tried to do Soul, the show that we're talking about now, I mean, was your...

00:43:31Marc:Was your incentive cultural or financial, really?

00:43:35Marc:Were you saying, like, enough is enough, this needs to happen?

00:43:39Guest:No, no, no.

00:43:40Guest:Or were you like, this is a good market?

00:43:41Guest:No, it was financial, and it was the fact that it was a wealth there, a treasure trove of humor and people and performers.

00:43:50Guest:And so I did it because I thought it would be successful.

00:43:53Guest:And it was enormously successful, but the network would not buy it as a series because they could never cancel it.

00:43:59Guest:Isn't that interesting?

00:44:00Guest:So that's when the Wayan Brothers.

00:44:01Marc:Well, times had changed.

00:44:03Marc:The culture was different.

00:44:06Marc:I mean, NBC, that calculation is almost creepy because they just didn't want to have any responsibility in what was happening around race at the time.

00:44:17Marc:By the time the Wayan Brothers was around, the boundary's been way broken.

00:44:22Guest:Don Rio was a guy working for me, and the Wayan Brothers was his family.

00:44:25Guest:So he took it to the Wayan Brothers, and that became the Wayan Brothers series.

00:44:29Guest:The fact is, you see, the black culture has always been a part of our treasure trove of entertainment.

00:44:39Guest:And as long as they stayed on their own side of the street, it was.

00:44:45Guest:But when they crossed over and became into the whited...

00:44:47Guest:area, then that's when white people got very nervous.

00:44:50Guest:Networks got nervous.

00:44:51Guest:A white audience was not nervous.

00:44:53Guest:When we booked Red Fox, and we did an all-black show, and I couldn't put it into a club, so I took it out to the other side of town and did the show there.

00:45:06Guest:And within a week, the whole audience was white.

00:45:10Marc:Really?

00:45:11Guest:Yeah.

00:45:12Guest:And the black culture has always been the main backbone of much of our humor.

00:45:18Marc:Well, when you bought Sammy's house, how did that happen?

00:45:22Guest:Well, you did a lot of research, didn't you?

00:45:25Guest:Sammy wanted to buy a house, and it was a house that used to belong to Judy Garland up behind Ciro's in the hills.

00:45:30Guest:And they obviously wouldn't sell to a black man.

00:45:33Marc:Even if it was Sammy at the peak of his thing?

00:45:35Guest:No, no, no, no, no.

00:45:37Guest:It didn't matter.

00:45:38Guest:It was color-bearer you couldn't imagine.

00:45:40Guest:We went up to see the house, and I got 200 from Herman Hover.

00:45:49Guest:It gave me $200,000.

00:45:51Guest:I don't think it was $200,000.

00:45:56Guest:It was less than that.

00:45:57Guest:Anyway, I went up, and I bought the house, and then gave it to Sammy, and gave it to Sammy.

00:46:02Guest:Sammy bought it from me, but then he couldn't turn me down because Ciro's and my connections with Vegas and people

00:46:10Guest:They couldn't tell me no.

00:46:12Guest:So I bought the house and then turned it over to Sammy.

00:46:15Guest:And then what happened was, since I was still managing Ciro's, which was right over the hill, Sammy would have parties.

00:46:22Guest:And he'd invite everybody in Ciro's to come to his party.

00:46:26Guest:And I said, Sam, you just emptied Ciro's to have your damn party.

00:46:30Guest:Look, I helped to buy the house.

00:46:31Guest:God damn it, leave my customers alone.

00:46:34Guest:Let me keep my audience.

00:46:35Guest:Sammy was a party looking for a place to happen.

00:46:38Guest:Yeah.

00:46:38Guest:Oh, he was adorable.

00:46:40Guest:God, he was fun.

00:46:41Guest:And the impressions and the singing and the dancing.

00:46:43Marc:Well, you mentioned Judy Garland, and you had a pretty deep relationship with her, too.

00:46:47Guest:Yeah.

00:46:47Guest:I wanted to do the Judy Garland show, and I didn't know how to go about it, but she was dangerous.

00:46:54Marc:This was the early 60s.

00:46:55Guest:The early 60s.

00:46:56Guest:63.

00:46:57Guest:Yeah.

00:46:59Guest:Dangerous how?

00:47:00Guest:I had done the Dinah Shore Chevy show.

00:47:02Guest:Yeah.

00:47:04Guest:On television.

00:47:04Guest:Yeah, on television.

00:47:05Guest:And it was a big hit, and it was good.

00:47:06Guest:And I wanted to do the Judy Garland show, but I didn't know what to do.

00:47:09Guest:So I said, I don't want to meet her because I don't know how to audition for Judy Garland.

00:47:14Marc:But why did you say she was dangerous?

00:47:16Guest:Well, she was dangerous.

00:47:17Guest:She was, you know, famous for all kinds of giving the studios trouble and giving the network.

00:47:23Guest:Everybody was trouble.

00:47:23Marc:And this is her in her, what, late 30s?

00:47:25Guest:Yeah.

00:47:26Guest:And so, uh, I go for a meeting with Judy Garland and we sit down and I said, Ms.

00:47:31Guest:Garland, I said, uh, I don't care what you may have heard about me.

00:47:36Guest:There's no truth to the rumor that I'm difficult.

00:47:38Guest:And she looked at me and says, you're difficult.

00:47:41Guest:See, even you've heard it.

00:47:43Guest:Well, from that came a relationship where I could make her laugh.

00:47:46Guest:Yeah.

00:47:47Guest:Secret to Judy Garland.

00:47:48Guest:A lot with Frank, too.

00:47:49Guest:But the secret with Judy Garland was making her laugh.

00:47:51Guest:Yeah.

00:47:52Guest:And I could make her laugh.

00:47:53Marc:But this is another person, not unlike Sammy, who could really turn on the juice and do anything.

00:47:58Guest:Oh, she hit that stage.

00:48:00Guest:And what happened was we did this show.

00:48:04Guest:We did five shows in six weeks.

00:48:05Guest:For what network?

00:48:07Guest:I think it was for NBC.

00:48:10Guest:I think it was for NBC.

00:48:12Guest:But anyway, nobody thought she'd show up for the second show, but she showed up.

00:48:15Guest:She did these shows, and it was a live show.

00:48:18Guest:It was an hour within an hour.

00:48:19Guest:And they thought, you're going to have to taper.

00:48:21Guest:She's going to be there all night.

00:48:22Guest:Eight o'clock the show.

00:48:24Guest:Nine o'clock, the show was over.

00:48:25Guest:And so the opening night of the show, I invited everybody.

00:48:29Guest:And everybody came.

00:48:30Guest:And the network went crazy.

00:48:31Guest:Who's everybody?

00:48:32Guest:Well, I mean, all the stars in town came to see Judy Garland.

00:48:35Guest:Sure.

00:48:35Guest:And the network said, what did you do?

00:48:37Guest:You invited Judy Garland.

00:48:38Guest:What if she doesn't show up?

00:48:40Guest:I said, it would not be a secret if she didn't show up.

00:48:43Guest:But trust me, she's going to be there.

00:48:44Guest:Yeah.

00:48:45Guest:She came out and saw that audience and just killed.

00:48:47Guest:Just killed.

00:48:49Guest:And she was dead.

00:48:51Guest:obsessed with same as Sammy Sammy would not leave that stage until he'd wrung everything out of that audience Judy was like that she let sound of that applause which Liza inherited you know sure but I had great fun but but I did not do the show that the network wanted they wanted another Judy Garland another Dinah Shore show

00:49:09Guest:Which was, what, more wholesome?

00:49:11Guest:Well, it was more wholesome, and Dinah would sit and chat with people, and she would talk into the camera.

00:49:15Guest:And so they said, Judy's not even talking to the audience.

00:49:19Guest:So I put that big steamer trunk, and I put all of her personal things in the steamer trunk, and she'd come out on stage alone, open the trunk up, and pull out different things that reminded her of her history.

00:49:30Guest:And it was wonderful, because she'd make it up on stage.

00:49:33Guest:Not what the network wanted.

00:49:34Guest:They wanted the Dinah Shore show.

00:49:36Guest:Yeah.

00:49:36Guest:I got fired.

00:49:37Guest:Really?

00:49:37Guest:Yeah.

00:49:38Guest:And so they brought in Norman Jewison.

00:49:40Guest:I love Norman.

00:49:41Guest:He looked at the shows and he says, that's perfect.

00:49:42Guest:That's exactly what she ought to be doing.

00:49:44Guest:But in the meantime, I'd done these five shows in six weeks.

00:49:47Guest:And they never aired them back to back.

00:49:48Guest:They aired them, waited about seven months to air them because they were indeed specials.

00:49:53Guest:Judy hit that stage like a battalion of Marines.

00:49:55Marc:Well, isn't that interesting?

00:49:56Marc:Seven months with a woman like that at that point in time, who the hell knows what would have happened, you know, in the course of seven months to her personally.

00:50:03Marc:It didn't matter to them.

00:50:04Marc:No.

00:50:04Marc:And at that point, was she in trouble?

00:50:07Guest:No, Judy, Judy was trouble looking for a place to happen.

00:50:10Guest:I mean, Judy occasionally, they said she drank.

00:50:14Guest:She didn't drink that much, you know.

00:50:15Guest:She drank white, blue nun and leap from milch.

00:50:17Guest:Yeah.

00:50:18Guest:And, but she was, the studios had so abused her as a child, telling her what to do.

00:50:24Guest:She and Mickey Rooney, the first show was with she and Mickey Rooney, and they talked about how the studios told them when to go to bed, when to get up.

00:50:31Guest:They were doing two or three movies at a time.

00:50:33Guest:Yeah.

00:50:34Guest:And they,

00:50:34Guest:kind of leaned on each other and they were both supposed to be trouble and uh uh so they wanted what i had done with dinah which warm and wonderful hi honey how y'all you know wonderful and that wasn't judy and i said i can't do that that's not judy garland and dinah went on to do daytime television forever yeah yeah i love dinah i had fun with dinah yeah classy lady she was good singer

00:50:57Guest:Oh, oh.

00:50:59Guest:So Judy and Dinah and Sammy and Frank.

00:51:04Guest:I mean, I had good luck to be involved with some classic, classic people.

00:51:09Marc:Well, let's take a leap from there to something we didn't really talk about last time, which was you sort of, what did you discover, Tiny Tim?

00:51:17Guest:Yeah, I was one of the first people to discover Tiny Tim.

00:51:23Guest:It was a time when... For laughing, right?

00:51:27Guest:It was for laughing.

00:51:28Guest:I had a poster of him when I was a kid.

00:51:29Guest:I found him sort of fascinating.

00:51:31Guest:It was fascinating.

00:51:32Guest:It seemed to me like rules were there specifically to be broken.

00:51:37Guest:And the idea of introducing Tiny Tim in a major network show, who was obviously a strange person, would...

00:51:46Guest:frightened everybody.

00:51:48Guest:So what I did, I brought Tiny Tim out and Dan Rowan introduced him to Dick Martin.

00:51:52Guest:And Dick Martin looked at him like, you know, what kind of a freak is this?

00:51:55Guest:And Tiny Tim sang tiptoe through the door.

00:51:58Guest:And the audience went crazy and Dick was in shock and Dan Rowan loved putting Dick on.

00:52:04Guest:And by the next day, everybody was doing tiny tip-tip-toe through the tulips.

00:52:09Guest:And the network said, you told us this was a big star.

00:52:12Guest:I said, look at these reviews.

00:52:14Guest:The only way I got him on the air was to tell NBC was a big star in disguise.

00:52:19Marc:What was interesting about him is that, you know, he was, he wasn't, you can put him in a category really.

00:52:27Marc:And like, you know, he was just an oddball guy, but he seemed to have such a reverence for that music from the old days that he was trying to capture almost what it sounded like on 78 records.

00:52:37Guest:Capture the reverie in awe.

00:52:41Guest:Tiny Tim was a very, very bright person.

00:52:44Guest:And he knew all the history and he knew all the performers and he knew everything.

00:52:47Guest:He was just a little strange with that ukulele.

00:52:50Guest:Where'd you find him?

00:52:52Guest:Somebody sent him to see me.

00:52:54Guest:And he walked in the office, and I went, my God, this is weird, because my sense of humor at that point was a little bent.

00:53:01Guest:Yeah.

00:53:01Guest:And the idea of putting Tiny Tim next to him, Dick Martin was a very romantic fellow.

00:53:06Guest:He was famous for his relationship with ladies.

00:53:09Guest:Yeah.

00:53:09Guest:And to put him on with Tiny Tim was just an outrage.

00:53:13Guest:And when Tiny Tim came out, and Dick looked at him just in awe, right?

00:53:18Guest:And he was such a big, big hit.

00:53:20Guest:Yeah.

00:53:20Guest:The next day, they said...

00:53:22Guest:You know, what is this?

00:53:23Guest:And he went on to become, and then from there he went on The Tonight Show and did all the other things.

00:53:28Guest:But Tim was super, super bright, knowledgeable.

00:53:32Marc:What happened to him ultimately?

00:53:35Guest:I think Tim died of natural causes, you know, which a lot of people didn't.

00:53:42Marc:Yeah, but he did that bit for his whole life.

00:53:44Guest:Well, it wasn't a bit.

00:53:45Guest:That was Tiny Tim.

00:53:50Guest:But people just looked at him in awe.

00:53:55Guest:Not just because of the crazy little voice, but because of his knowledge of other things.

00:54:00Guest:He was fascinating.

00:54:02Marc:Yeah, and so...

00:54:04Marc:would you say well i mean it's interesting with a with a guy like you that like it doesn't it's not like laughing put you on the map you were a working guy you were a big guy big producer yeah helped invent the variety show format yeah and uh but laughing you know sort of made a difference culturally obviously variety variety existed what didn't exist was a show that was pure comedy

00:54:25Guest:That was what did not exist.

00:54:27Guest:And that's what laughing was.

00:54:29Guest:Laughing was an attempt to do as many jokes as possible in as short a period of time as possible.

00:54:34Guest:And it was born from my own minimal attention span, you know?

00:54:39Guest:Yeah.

00:54:40Marc:You figured out about a hundred different ways to tell as many jokes as possible.

00:54:43Guest:Yes, yes.

00:54:44Guest:And...

00:54:45Guest:Somehow, and now as I race towards senility, the idea of intimidating the networks, the idea of presenting something that was a problem but with a 50 share was appealing to me.

00:55:03Guest:It was fun.

00:55:04Guest:It was just a fun thing.

00:55:05Marc:You were able to... That was the way the casino was set up then.

00:55:10Marc:Now a 50 share is almost unheard of.

00:55:12Guest:Well, they get a five now.

00:55:13Guest:Yeah, you're killing it.

00:55:14Guest:A 50 share was... Isn't that crazy?

00:55:16Guest:So I said... Laughing presented a big problem because of the subject matter and because nobody knew anybody on it and because we didn't book guest stars as guest stars.

00:55:25Guest:We booked cameos.

00:55:27Guest:We'd stop in the hall.

00:55:27Guest:John Wayne said, I'm not going to do that show.

00:55:30Guest:I'm not going to be on that show.

00:55:32Guest:And eventually he was on the show.

00:55:33Guest:And eventually...

00:55:34Guest:He got so much mail that we put him in a big blue bunny suit.

00:55:38Guest:But the idea of breaking the rules always kind of fascinated me because the rules were boring.

00:55:47Guest:I mean, the Dinah Short Chevy show was a delightful experience.

00:55:50Guest:I had done Meredith Wilson's 76 trombone.

00:55:54Guest:I did specials with Meredith Wilson.

00:55:55Guest:All of those, I did tons of specials before Dinah, but Dinah was the classic example of a classy...

00:56:02Guest:dignified, wonderfully funny, happy woman.

00:56:07Guest:But then the idea of doing something that broke all the rules did appeal to me.

00:56:13Guest:And it was the time to do that, 19-whatever-it-was.

00:56:15Guest:Well, what happened was, it wasn't the time.

00:56:18Guest:NBC was getting killed.

00:56:19Guest:They did Lucille Ball and Gunsmoke were out on Monday night at 8 o'clock.

00:56:24Guest:And NBC had nothing to put in that time period.

00:56:27Guest:And the basic greed overcame their timidity.

00:56:30Guest:And so we would have bought anything.

00:56:32Guest:And I came in with a show that cost nothing with people they'd never heard of, writers they'd never heard of.

00:56:38Guest:And Paul Keyes was Richard Nixon's closest friend.

00:56:41Guest:That's your writer's guy?

00:56:42Guest:Yeah.

00:56:43Guest:So we put Paul Keyes in.

00:56:44Guest:And so they felt safe because of his relationship with Nixon.

00:56:50Guest:Yeah.

00:56:50Guest:It was out of desperation.

00:56:51Guest:I mean, NBC didn't mean to buy it.

00:56:53Guest:And then by the third show, it was getting this huge rating.

00:56:57Guest:And I mean, I'm difficult now, but with a 50 share, 50 share 50 years ago, I was totally impossible.

00:57:03Marc:Who was the brass at NBC at that time?

00:57:05Guest:Herb Schlosser, I think.

00:57:06Guest:Yeah.

00:57:07Guest:Or Fred Silverman.

00:57:08Guest:And the networks, they said, you can't do this show.

00:57:14Guest:And I said, why don't you cancel it?

00:57:16Guest:They said, but it's 8 o'clock Monday night.

00:57:19Guest:Right.

00:57:19Guest:They said, but that's family hour.

00:57:21Guest:I said, yeah.

00:57:22Guest:So I said, why don't you move it?

00:57:23Guest:I said, I'm not going to move the show.

00:57:24Guest:We'll do it at 8 o'clock Monday night or cancel it.

00:57:27Guest:Well, you can't imagine.

00:57:29Guest:The meetings now, I mean, I'm a timid old guy now.

00:57:32Guest:You've got to imagine me with a 50 share, 50 years.

00:57:35Guest:Forget about it, you know.

00:57:38Guest:You had him over a barrel.

00:57:40Guest:Yeah, so I said, why don't you cancel it?

00:57:42Guest:George, be serious.

00:57:43Guest:That's as serious as I'm going to get.

00:57:45Guest:And we would go on doing it.

00:57:48Guest:And then when they'd look at those ratings, then they'd go into Herb Schlosser's office and say, he's doing it again.

00:57:54Guest:He just did a tribute to whatever.

00:57:56Guest:And so Herb called me, and they said, at a meeting, and they're complaining.

00:58:00Guest:I said, why don't you care?

00:58:01Guest:He said, shut up.

00:58:02Guest:Just do what you're doing.

00:58:03Guest:I had to make this call.

00:58:05Guest:And we did it.

00:58:06Guest:We did it.

00:58:07Guest:It was a wonderful adventure.

00:58:09Guest:I mean, can you imagine having Goldie Hawn come into the studio every week?

00:58:13Guest:And then Lily Tomlin and Lily, oh God, it was an adventure.

00:58:16Marc:It's an interesting story in the book you tell about George Burns and Goldie Hawn.

00:58:20Marc:I thought it was very charming and very funny that

00:58:23Marc:You know, that George, he mentored you a little bit.

00:58:27Guest:Yes, he did.

00:58:28Guest:Yes, he did.

00:58:28Guest:He really knew his shit, huh?

00:58:30Guest:Yeah.

00:58:31Guest:One of my first shows was Dinah Shore.

00:58:33Guest:You've got to understand, I was the new kid, and Dinah liked me because I gave her things to say that were funny.

00:58:39Guest:Yeah.

00:58:40Guest:But doing the Dinah Shore show was a real leap for a newcomer.

00:58:45Guest:Yeah.

00:58:45Guest:And so we...

00:58:47Guest:Did Dinah, and then I was acceptable.

00:58:49Marc:Yeah.

00:58:50Marc:But how did you meet George?

00:58:51Guest:And George Burns, George Burns was on the Dinah Shore show.

00:58:54Guest:Okay.

00:58:55Guest:And he said to me, he stood beside me, and he said, why don't you suggest that they do it?

00:58:59Guest:And I said, why don't you do it?

00:59:00Guest:And they thought I was a genius.

00:59:02Guest:I was not a genius.

00:59:03Guest:George Burns was telling me what to say.

00:59:05Guest:And so that made my reputation with Dinah as a very wonderfully creative guy coming up with all of these answers.

00:59:11Guest:It was all George Burns.

00:59:12Guest:So when I did the Judy Garland, when I did the Goldie Hawn special,

00:59:17Guest:wanted Goldie to be with George because Goldie was as close to, you know, Gracie.

00:59:23Marc:And that's so funny because like, you know, in the, in the book you talk about how like, you know, George did his, the bit that he'd been doing his whole life.

00:59:30Marc:Yes, yes, yes.

00:59:31Marc:And, and, and, and Goldie was not necessarily totally comfortable immediately.

00:59:37Guest:Goldie, Goldie,

00:59:38Guest:Goldie was one of the brightest people I ever knew or worked with.

00:59:43Guest:Yeah.

00:59:43Guest:But she was easily distracted.

00:59:45Guest:Okay.

00:59:46Guest:And when she did laughing, we would stand next to her and Ruth Buzzy would make rude noises.

00:59:51Guest:Yeah.

00:59:51Guest:Anytime you could get her attention, Goldie would laugh.

00:59:54Guest:Yeah.

00:59:54Guest:She's now with George Burns.

00:59:56Guest:Yeah.

00:59:56Guest:And so we do the rehearsal, right?

00:59:59Guest:Yeah.

00:59:59Guest:And I said, why don't we just tape the rehearsal?

01:00:00Guest:So we taped them doing a routine that George had done for years with Gracie.

01:00:05Guest:With Gracie, yeah.

01:00:06Guest:And it was Soft Shoe and whatever.

01:00:07Guest:Yeah.

01:00:08Guest:And it was pretty screwed up, but we did it.

01:00:10Guest:Yeah.

01:00:10Guest:And we went and I said, okay.

01:00:12Guest:We did five more takes.

01:00:13Guest:Yeah.

01:00:14Guest:And when we got all through, Goldie says, you're going to use the rehearsal.

01:00:17Guest:I said, oh, yeah, you betcha.

01:00:19Guest:Because when Goldie laughs, the whole world laughs.

01:00:22Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:23Guest:is so charming and so warm and so bright.

01:00:26Guest:You know, for a woman that got accused of being ditzy, she was not down, she was easily distracted.

01:00:32Guest:And I made my living.

01:00:34Guest:I bought a house in Beverly Hills distracting Goldie Hawn.

01:00:36Guest:Yeah, and are you still close with her?

01:00:39Guest:Oh yeah, she was just on the other night.

01:00:40Guest:She did an interview, a very serious interview, and she's one of the brightest people.

01:00:44Guest:Goldie Hawn and Lily Tomlin, you know, can you imagine having the two of them along with Ruth Buzzi and Joanne Worley and Artie Johnson?

01:00:51Guest:That collection of people all were available because there was no work for young character people.

01:00:59Guest:And I rounded up all these people and put them into one show because they cost nothing and the network had nothing else to put on opposite the Gunsmoke and Lucy.

01:01:08Guest:And by the time we did a few of those 2 a.m.

01:01:11Guest:tapings, you know, where we would make up stuff and it was improv music.

01:01:15Guest:To the ultimate, right?

01:01:16Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:01:17Guest:In the hall, we'd make up stuff, and they'd come in and just do it on stage.

01:01:20Guest:We'd come in with cameos.

01:01:22Guest:I mean, whether it's Gregory Peck or John Wayne.

01:01:24Marc:And they were, what, down the street?

01:01:26Marc:So they'd just come by?

01:01:27Guest:Well, yeah, they were down the street taping the Johnny Carson show.

01:01:30Guest:Sure.

01:01:31Marc:And you'd go grab them?

01:01:32Guest:Come on down.

01:01:32Guest:I'd go grab them.

01:01:34Guest:And then it always developed into a bit of a problem, you know, because one night, one night, Dick didn't get to the studio.

01:01:43Guest:And so I went across the hall and I said to Johnny Carson, would you come across the hall and read Dick's cards?

01:01:49Guest:Yeah.

01:01:49Guest:So Johnny Carson came over and performed as Dick Martin.

01:01:54Guest:And everybody thought it was hysterical.

01:01:55Guest:It was born out of a problem.

01:01:58Guest:My reaction to panic is partially what made me a property owner.

01:02:03Marc:Well, there's good comedy in it.

01:02:05Guest:Well, yeah, yeah.

01:02:07Guest:Mistake.

01:02:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, because people will have to be on their toes.

01:02:10Guest:You look at the Rockettes in New York.

01:02:12Guest:Yeah.

01:02:13Guest:One of those dancers out of step, that's the one you look.

01:02:15Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:02:16Guest:You pay attention.

01:02:17Guest:You pay attention to the cripple.

01:02:18Marc:And it's hilarious.

01:02:19Guest:Yeah.

01:02:20Guest:So I had a good time.

01:02:23Guest:on the situations and problems that other people panicked over.

01:02:28Marc:Did you know Lucy?

01:02:29Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:02:31Guest:Lucy, I was doing Dinah Shore.

01:02:32Guest:Lucy's son, Lil Desi, put together a rock and roll band.

01:02:37Guest:I think it's in the book.

01:02:39Guest:And how I convinced her to come to New York.

01:02:41Marc:Because I watched the roast of her the other night.

01:02:44Marc:You had nothing to do with the roast, did you?

01:02:46Marc:No, no.

01:02:47Marc:What were they?

01:02:47Marc:Were they just a fun thing, a charity thing?

01:02:50Guest:The roast started out as the friars.

01:02:52Guest:They would have parties saluting somebody and then actually started out as a tribute.

01:02:58Guest:And then Rickles and them started coming in and turned it into a roast.

01:03:02Guest:Right.

01:03:03Marc:And then Dean just took the idea or what?

01:03:05Guest:Yeah.

01:03:06Guest:I mean, uh, uh, ideas then were, uh, you could go into a network and talk to one guy and sell him an idea.

01:03:14Guest:Yeah.

01:03:15Guest:Today it takes a meeting of 10 people to decide where to meet.

01:03:18Guest:Yeah.

01:03:19Guest:Uh, but at that point laughing was bought by accident.

01:03:22Guest:They had nothing else to put on as was, uh, uh, many of the things I did were, uh, panic bias.

01:03:31Guest:Yeah.

01:03:31Guest:Nothing else.

01:03:32Guest:And real people was another one.

01:03:34Marc:Well, real people.

01:03:34Marc:Yeah, let's talk about that.

01:03:35Marc:But I just like I think it's interesting about Lucy is that like, you know, people know Lucy, but I love Lucy and the Lucille Ball show.

01:03:42Marc:But she'd been around forever.

01:03:43Marc:She was a studio player and she was like one of the gals that all the guys knew.

01:03:47Marc:I didn't know until the other night about her long relationship with Ginger Rogers and how she dated Henry Fonda.

01:03:53Marc:I mean, it's like there's this whole history of these people that certainly nobody knows now.

01:03:57Guest:Yes, but she was outrageous, and she loved to laugh, too.

01:04:00Guest:She's funny.

01:04:01Guest:I wanted her to do this show with Steve Lawrence.

01:04:03Guest:She said, why am I going to go to New York and do a show with Steve?

01:04:05Guest:Why would I do that?

01:04:07Guest:And I said, well, okay, but what do I do with this elephant?

01:04:11Guest:And she said, what do you mean?

01:04:12Guest:I said, what elephant?

01:04:13Guest:I said, well, I hired a pink elephant to ride down Schubert Alley with you and Steve Lawrence singing together at 11 o'clock on Saturday night.

01:04:20Guest:What am I going to do with this elephant?

01:04:22Guest:She said, I'll tell you what to do with the elephant.

01:04:24Guest:Take the elephant.

01:04:24Guest:She said, all right, when do you need me?

01:04:26Guest:The idea of riding a pink elephant down in Schubert Alley appeals to Lucy.

01:04:30Guest:You did it?

01:04:31Guest:Yeah.

01:04:32Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:04:32Guest:And got arrested.

01:04:34Guest:And she wouldn't let me go to jail without the elephant.

01:04:36Guest:And so Lucy and I became very, very tight friends.

01:04:40Marc:That's great.

01:04:41Marc:Now, real people, I just talked to Gary Muldeer the other day.

01:04:46Marc:And he used to run with Skip Stevenson.

01:04:48Guest:Yes.

01:04:49Marc:And so was that cast out of the comedy store?

01:04:52Guest:Yeah, it was, again, with real people.

01:04:55Guest:I'd seen Sarah Purcell.

01:04:56Guest:She had done the news in San Diego, and she was doing the thing up here with Regis Philbin.

01:05:03Guest:And so I never even talked to anybody other than Sarah Purcell.

01:05:07Guest:And then I wound up these kind of quasi-news people.

01:05:11Guest:Bill Rafferty had been working with me as a comic.

01:05:13Guest:Sure.

01:05:13Guest:And no other woman, just Sarah.

01:05:16Guest:Was it Byron Allen too?

01:05:17Guest:Byron Allen I saw on The Tonight Show.

01:05:20Guest:He was 17 years old.

01:05:21Guest:And he was doing an interview.

01:05:23Guest:And we didn't have any black.

01:05:24Guest:We didn't have any young.

01:05:25Guest:So I hired Byron Allen.

01:05:28Guest:And Skip I'd seen at the comedy store.

01:05:30Guest:So I said, you want to do a television show?

01:05:31Guest:He said, yeah.

01:05:32Guest:I mean, you cannot imagine today.

01:05:36Guest:A young, hot shot, opinionated, problem, producer, director, writer, getting by with what I got by with.

01:05:44Guest:Bringing Skip Stevenson, he couldn't get a job on network television except with me, Skip Stevenson, Bill Rafferty.

01:05:50Guest:We hired Gary Owens as the announcer.

01:05:52Guest:Sure.

01:05:53Guest:And he couldn't be in the studio because he was doing a KMPC thing.

01:05:57Guest:And so he had to do his stuff first.

01:05:59Guest:And Skip, Bill Rafferty, Byron Allen, Fred Willard.

01:06:04Guest:Fred Willard was part of an improv group.

01:06:06Guest:Even from San Francisco, right?

01:06:07Guest:Martin Mull, yeah.

01:06:08Guest:And so all of those pairs, you can just hear the names, but they were...

01:06:11Guest:kind of on the periphery of show business.

01:06:13Guest:They were not sought after to do network television except by me.

01:06:17Guest:And he started those guys, like Fred, he started him, really.

01:06:20Marc:Yes, yes, yes.

01:06:21Marc:And it was, I'm trying to remember, it was basically a prank show, right?

01:06:24Guest:What?

01:06:25Marc:The real people?

01:06:26Guest:No, real people.

01:06:27Guest:Real people, we went out on the street, and we went out and we found unusual characters.

01:06:32Guest:That's it, yeah.

01:06:32Guest:And we featured them.

01:06:34Guest:Yeah.

01:06:35Guest:And we found out that they were more interested than most of the guest stars.

01:06:39Guest:And it's a huge hit.

01:06:39Guest:How many seasons?

01:06:41Guest:Five seasons.

01:06:41Guest:And it went on just, it was a huge hit.

01:06:44Guest:And which I really couldn't believe that a show with no name, of course, part of it was they had another problem time period.

01:06:52Guest:And the other part of it was the show cost nothing.

01:06:54Guest:So, I mean, I came in with this idea with all of these people.

01:06:58Guest:And again, Herb Schlosser said, well, you know, we have nothing else.

01:07:00Guest:So go do that.

01:07:02Guest:And before anybody knew it, it was snuck up.

01:07:05Marc:It was like the beginning of reality television.

01:07:07Guest:It was the beginning.

01:07:08Guest:That's right.

01:07:08Guest:And then we were the writers for real people.

01:07:14Guest:were documentary writers, really.

01:07:17Guest:And they were not sought after for network television.

01:07:21Guest:And so we put all of those writers on there with this collection of unusual people that were interested in other people.

01:07:30Guest:And Fred Willard was wonderful.

01:07:31Guest:He's great at that.

01:07:33Guest:And so, and again, accident.

01:07:36Guest:We put the show on the air, but they had nothing else to do, nothing else to put on.

01:07:40Guest:And before they knew it, it was a hit.

01:07:42Guest:And I mean, I'm arrogant now, but you can imagine me with a 50 share.

01:07:45Guest:Forget about it.

01:07:46Guest:Another 50 share.

01:07:46Guest:Oh, another.

01:07:47Guest:And it was like a 50 share.

01:07:48Guest:They couldn't believe that rating.

01:07:50Guest:Yeah.

01:07:50Guest:With just unusual people.

01:07:52Marc:So...

01:07:52Marc:At what point did you decide to create the American Comedy Awards?

01:07:58Marc:What drove that?

01:07:59Guest:Well, it drove that because of my love of comedy, which I haven't exhibited during this interview.

01:08:04Guest:But it was just all of these people were hired—

01:08:12Guest:as guest stars, you know, to do a monologue.

01:08:16Guest:And that's why I got involved with this thing in Jamestown, this comedy collection they have.

01:08:22Guest:No, that's now.

01:08:24Guest:Now.

01:08:24Guest:It's a result of my love of comedy and my need to laugh and the fact that making people laugh in unusual situations is part of how I got my jobs at the network, you know.

01:08:38Guest:I'd go in and they'd say, well, okay, we'll try it.

01:08:40Guest:He's crazy.

01:08:41Guest:But it's been a long and funny career.

01:08:48Marc:For sure.

01:08:48Marc:And you created a space.

01:08:51Guest:Yes.

01:08:52Guest:That is uniquely yours.

01:08:53Guest:You saw something.

01:08:53Guest:There was nothing there.

01:08:55Guest:Yeah.

01:08:55Guest:And Monday night at 8 o'clock.

01:08:56Guest:Then we got Wednesday night at 8 o'clock.

01:08:58Guest:And to come in with something, one, that would cost nothing.

01:09:01Guest:Yeah.

01:09:02Guest:And two, that they couldn't go wrong with because who was going to criticize you for booking Sarah Purcell?

01:09:07Guest:She was a newswoman.

01:09:08Guest:Yeah.

01:09:08Guest:She was a weatherwoman.

01:09:09Guest:And if you walked into a problem with an answer when they had no other answers, sometimes you could put it on the air and it would be a runaway.

01:09:19Guest:And my hits were all surprises, as were some of my disasters, because I probably got fired more often.

01:09:27Marc:Oh, yeah?

01:09:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:09:29Marc:Like what's the most notable disaster?

01:09:31Guest:Well, refusal really for...

01:09:34Guest:Not refusal, resistance to network notes, because they'd come in with notes.

01:09:39Guest:And when we were doing Laugh-In, when we were doing Real People, they said, the network has some notes.

01:09:45Guest:That's still a horrible thing to hear.

01:09:47Guest:So I'd say, okay.

01:09:49Guest:And by the time they got through giving me their notes, we'd already done the show, and it was too late.

01:09:54Guest:Yeah.

01:09:56Guest:I have fun.

01:09:57Guest:I have fun.

01:09:58Guest:I'm having fun here now.

01:09:59Guest:I mean, I had fun where other people would run away and say, this is a disaster.

01:10:06Guest:And if you could have fun, then the audience came along with you.

01:10:10Guest:This thing that we're doing in Jamestown is a whole museum, not museum, collection devoted to comedy performers.

01:10:18Guest:They've always had comics hired to host the Grammys and the Emmys and the Oscars.

01:10:23Guest:But they never...

01:10:24Guest:They did a whole show.

01:10:25Guest:Never did the whole show.

01:10:26Guest:So I said what they wanted to do was to do an entire environment dedicated to the celebration of people who made us laugh.

01:10:34Marc:So this is August 4th, the National Comedy Center.

01:10:37Guest:That's right.

01:10:37Marc:It's in Lucille Ball's hometown of Jamestown, New York.

01:10:41Guest:And they're naming a theater in honor of you and your wife, Jolene.

01:10:45Guest:That's right.

01:10:46Guest:And here again, Jolene was the guest.

01:10:49Guest:It was the...

01:10:50Guest:co-star, if you will, or the leading lady on the Ernie Kovacs show.

01:10:55Guest:And Ernie Kovacs was a weird, weird guy, but funny as hell.

01:10:59Guest:He was not funny as the person, but when he did characters and situations, they were so outrageous and bizarre.

01:11:07Guest:And devices, he created it.

01:11:09Guest:And he met Darlene at a party and just fell in love with her.

01:11:13Guest:So he hired her to be his girl.

01:11:17Marc:But in August, they're doing a whole retrospective of your career.

01:11:19Guest:And there's a whole section in there of Ernie, too.

01:11:23Guest:Yeah.

01:11:24Marc:Is the place up and running already?

01:11:26Marc:It is, right?

01:11:26Guest:It's up and running now.

01:11:28Guest:And it's like, I think it's 30 acres or something.

01:11:30Guest:Oh, wow.

01:11:31Guest:What I did is, woman, wonderful, bright, bright, gorgeous lady, Journey, Gunderson, came to me and said, could they have a couple of clips from Laugh-In?

01:11:40Guest:And I said, sure.

01:11:41Guest:And she says, this is great.

01:11:42Guest:Do you have anything else?

01:11:44Yeah.

01:11:44Guest:And I said, lady, I have a warehouse full of elves.

01:11:46Guest:What do you mean?

01:11:47Guest:So I started sending them clips of the comedy awards, comedy honors, just for laughs.

01:11:51Guest:And so I inundated her with these collections of tapes.

01:11:56Guest:And so then they decided that they would do a whole area.

01:12:01Guest:Yeah, a few.

01:12:02Guest:Gave them a few dollars, and they opened this theater called the George Slaughter and Jolene Brand Slaughter Theater.

01:12:08Guest:And it devoted entirely to...

01:12:11Guest:And when you realize, you remember the comics, but the people, they weren't guest stars.

01:12:18Guest:They could sing and dance or whatever.

01:12:19Guest:But the comic was always hired to host the show, to hold it together, to bring the people into the tent.

01:12:25Guest:And so we devoted this whole collection.

01:12:27Guest:It's great.

01:12:28Guest:And so I helped them get—they've got Don Rickles in there, and they've got—

01:12:33Guest:Rodney?

01:12:34Guest:Rodney Danger, everybody.

01:12:35Guest:Everybody has given their collection of appearances as themselves to this museum.

01:12:42Guest:Not a museum, it's a collection.

01:12:44Guest:And they're having a ribbon cutting on August thing.

01:12:50Guest:August 4th.

01:12:51Guest:So August 4th.

01:12:52Guest:So we're going to go, Jolene and Maria at AJ and I. And very, very lucky.

01:12:56Guest:I married a great woman, Jolene.

01:12:59Guest:And I had two kids, Maria.

01:13:01Guest:My daughter Maria produced and directed Dolly Parton.

01:13:05Guest:Yeah.

01:13:05Guest:Christmas show and won an Emmy.

01:13:06Guest:Won another Emmy for Sammy Davis show and other stuff.

01:13:09Guest:And she's doing now.

01:13:10Marc:Family business.

01:13:11Guest:Yeah.

01:13:11Guest:And AJ was an Olympic horseback rider and won all kinds of trophies.

01:13:18Guest:Wow.

01:13:18Guest:and is now living in Phoenix, Arizona with her husband.

01:13:22Guest:Great guy.

01:13:22Guest:Yeah.

01:13:23Guest:And they're teaching kids, and they have a ranch down there where they teach kids to ride.

01:13:28Guest:So they've both been very successful, and I'm proud of both of them.

01:13:31Guest:Great.

01:13:31Guest:And, of course, I married well.

01:13:34Guest:Yeah, you did.

01:13:34Guest:It sounds great.

01:13:35Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:13:35Guest:It sounds great.

01:13:36Guest:And it was great catching up with you, George.

01:13:38Guest:Well, it's good to see you.

01:13:39Guest:Listen, I'm going to come by again in another year after I have done something else.

01:13:43Guest:Yeah.

01:13:44Guest:We'll do it, or we'll just do the second half of the book.

01:13:47Guest:Yeah.

01:13:47Guest:Well, the book was an adventure.

01:13:50Guest:I sat down and just started telling stories.

01:13:53Guest:I called a friend of mine, John Max, who was one of the top comedy writers.

01:13:56Guest:I said, look, John, I just dictated all of these stories, recollections.

01:14:02Guest:Can you make a book out of it?

01:14:03Guest:So he took the stories and deleted everything I couldn't say.

01:14:07Guest:Yeah.

01:14:07Guest:And then he deleted everything I shouldn't say.

01:14:10Guest:Yeah.

01:14:10Guest:And what's left is what's in the book still laughing.

01:14:13Guest:And Goldie Hawn wrote the afterword.

01:14:15Guest:Oh, I mean, can you imagine into one life I have Goldie Hawn, Lily Tomlin, and Joanne Worley, and Ruth Buzzi, and Robin Williams, and all those.

01:14:26Guest:I've been very, very, very lucky.

01:14:27Guest:Great work.

01:14:28Guest:Nice to talk to you.

01:14:29Guest:Nice seeing you, man.

01:14:30Guest:And you're going to have me back in another two years.

01:14:31Marc:Yeah, we'll try to keep it shorter.

01:14:34Guest:I'll think of something funny to tell you the next time.

01:14:37Guest:Okay, buddy.

01:14:37Guest:All right.

01:14:37Marc:There you go.

01:14:44Marc:George Schlatter.

01:14:45Marc:The book is called Still Laughing, A Life in Comedy.

01:14:48Marc:It's out now.

01:14:49Marc:Hang out for a second, folks.

01:14:53Marc:Hey, listen, if you want some music for the pool or for your summer barbecue, we put together another live music mixtape for Full Marin listeners.

01:15:01Marc:This is a collection of songs that were recorded live in the garage, and they play like a complete album.

01:15:07Marc:Here's a little bit of me playing with Jeff Bridges when he came over to the old garage.

01:15:13Guest:Just one more hill to climb Just one more road to take Just one more war to win Before I kiss your face I'll never leave you again I'll never leave you again

01:15:32Guest:I'll bring my suitcase to ashes together I'll never be you I'll never be I'll never be you again guitar solo

01:16:01Marc:Yeah, man, we did it.

01:16:03Marc:John Goodwin.

01:16:04Marc:Beautiful.

01:16:05Marc:Thanks, buddy.

01:16:06Marc:You can get all three live music mixtapes and more than 75 other bonus episodes we've done over the past year on the full Marin.

01:16:13Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description to subscribe or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

01:16:22Marc:This is a one-take guitar business right now.

01:16:25Marc:Usually it takes many, many takes.

01:16:27Marc:I'm not saying that's a good thing, but here you go.

01:16:33guitar solo

01:17:06guitar solo

01:17:35Guest:guitar solo

01:18:26Guest:.

01:18:27Guest:.

01:18:31.

01:19:01Thank you.

01:19:41Marc:Boomer lives monkey in La Fonda cat angels everywhere yeah yeah