Episode 1450 - Joanna Gleason
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how's everything going how how'd your fourth of july go how did the did you get everything cleaned up
Marc:Were there all kinds of, you know, empty firework casings all out in your backyard?
Marc:Did you fuck up your cement with any of those magnesium based fireworks?
Marc:I remember we used to do those things called snakes.
Marc:You remember snakes?
Marc:We'd kind of light the top of this little miniature disc, like almost look like a tiny hockey puck.
Marc:And then this weird snake of ash would happen and it would burn a pattern onto the sidewalk that would never go away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Anyways, how's your life going?
Marc:How are you doing on that treadmill?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Where are you at?
Marc:Are you driving?
Marc:And I do have to give a special shout out because I was asked to do it, but I don't always think of everything.
Marc:I don't always do this at the beginning of the show.
Marc:But how's it going on the farm?
Marc:How are you farmers doing?
Marc:How's it going with the crops?
Marc:I got a specific request from a listener who listens when she's out in the fields.
Marc:He, she, they, I'm not sure.
Marc:But they're out in the fields listening to me ramble on about this and that.
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Everybody all right?
Marc:Today on the show, I'm going to talk to Joanna Gleason.
Marc:Now, she's a great actor.
Marc:But I also interviewed her father, Monty Hall, on episode 427 of WTF.
Marc:And that originally came about because her son, Aaron...
Marc:who was a guitar player and musician, wanted me to interview Monty.
Marc:And then I didn't even know about Joanna, who was one of my favorite actresses, primarily because of crimes and misdemeanors.
Marc:She was also in Boogie Nights.
Marc:She played the Wahlberg character's mother, and she was in the original cast of Into the Woods, and she won a Tony for that.
Marc:And she just directed her first feature film, The Grotto.
Marc:And she brought over such nice stuff.
Marc:I couldn't drink the booze.
Marc:But there was some sort of family tradition that revolved around, I believe it was pickles.
Marc:And she brought, I think she brought me some olives and there was a vodka shot involved, but I didn't do that, but she brought me a seltzer.
Marc:And if I'm not mistaken, was it, oh, what was it?
Marc:Was it, there was something with a little bite to it.
Marc:Maybe it was some sort of a canned fish or a herring or something.
Marc:And
Marc:It was just some nice thing that her and her family did as some sort of ritual of some kind.
Marc:And, uh, it was very, it was very nice there.
Marc:There's sometimes there are guests that, uh, they, they bring things and I, I like things.
Marc:I just had Melissa via senior came over and she brought me a bunch of her artwork.
Marc:It was very nice.
Marc:And Rachel Weiss sent me a cat, a cat box, not a litter box, but a fun thing for the cats and,
Marc:Makes me feel good.
Marc:Makes me feel appreciated.
Marc:But Joanna also made me take a COVID test in front of her.
Marc:It's so weird that, you know, I don't know how much we talk about it anymore, and I don't know how much we remember just how utterly traumatized most of us were on a day-to-day basis with COVID and thinking we had it or didn't have it.
Marc:And then once the test came out, just that kind of a...
Marc:the anxiety and this sort of like, where can I get a test?
Marc:Can you buy them?
Marc:Where can I buy them?
Marc:Stockpiling tests and just how I was, you know, when you had to go drive to the test and then the testing kits happened.
Marc:But every time I do it now, which I have done it a couple of times, it's nostalgic and triggering.
Marc:Because there is that moment.
Marc:It's like, do I have it?
Marc:I don't think I have it.
Marc:I don't feel great.
Marc:I have a little sign.
Marc:But do I?
Marc:And then just all that wave of panic and trauma triggering.
Marc:It's real.
Marc:It's interesting how little we talk about it.
Marc:I don't know what we're supposed to be doing or who's talking about it where.
Marc:But so many things happen.
Marc:Didn't come back.
Marc:Businesses, meetings, jobs.
Marc:But just the day-to-day anxiety was exhausting.
Marc:I think it must have added years on to my life.
Marc:And I still have no sense of time, clearly.
Marc:I don't even know what day it is today.
Marc:Fourth of July fucked me up.
Marc:But but yeah, it was kind of an honor to talk to Joanna because I really I felt I felt connected to her.
Marc:I don't know what it was about some of her performances.
Marc:I think it really is.
Marc:She was just so fucking good in crimes and misdemeanors.
Marc:And yeah.
Marc:And Alan Alda played her brother and Woody Allen.
Marc:It was just... I don't know.
Marc:There's just something about some people that I feel connected to them.
Marc:And I felt connected to her.
Marc:So it was quite a nice chat.
Marc:And it was kind of great talking to her dad.
Marc:But look...
Marc:For those of you who are in Los Angeles or going to be here, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on July 11th, 18th and 25th.
Marc:Those are Tuesdays.
Marc:And I'm back at Largo on Thursday, July 27th.
Marc:I'm workshopping, you know, an hour of stuff.
Marc:Dynasty Typewriter is a very small room, so it is kind of an intimate experience.
Marc:I don't know who will be opening for me.
Marc:I think I'm going to ask Hannah Einbinder to do at least one of those dates.
Marc:I'll be at Wise Guys in Salt Lake City on August 11th and 12th for four shows and Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd.
Marc:There'll be more stuff coming.
Marc:I'm doing a series of club dates to kind of polish whatever it is I'm polishing.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets.
Marc:And that's that.
Marc:So anyways, what's happening?
Marc:Ow!
Marc:Ow!
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I just bonked my knee in that place.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So what's happening...
Marc:is i i'm i'm teetering on the edge of some sort of like uh insecurity spiral or maybe a mild depression i wake up with it and it's not like i'm sad it's not like i don't want to get out of bed but it's just sort of like what is my life what is my life
Marc:What is, you know, what is important?
Marc:How have I lived?
Marc:What, you know, what am I doing?
Marc:There is a type of insecurity happening in terms of my work and in terms of, you know, what I do that I thought was, you know, kind of in a better place.
Marc:And it just may, I look, I'll be honest with you, you know, I'm turning 60.
Marc:Maybe that has something to do with this.
Marc:but the vulnerability and all I've been doing is trying to kind of fill myself up and reassess
Marc:Things, art, you know, movies.
Marc:I talked about that before.
Marc:I've been watching these old movies and I, and I don't, there's some part of me that feels like, how did I never watch anything?
Marc:How did I never do anything properly when I was younger?
Marc:How, but oddly not my standup.
Marc:I I've, you know, poked around in some of my old standup and I'm always kind of surprised.
Marc:I read some of my book to you the last time I was here and I don't have any problem with that.
Marc:I don't have any real regrets or, or weirdness about my work.
Marc:Um,
Marc:But lately when I watch things, I'm like, how am I missing this stuff?
Marc:I mean, I literally watched an old Marilyn Monroe movie the other night and I'm not, I don't really do that too often, but I've been doing it more.
Marc:I've been letting myself do it.
Marc:Cause I always think like I got to keep working.
Marc:I got to keep thinking.
Marc:I got to keep cooking.
Marc:I've got to fix a thing.
Marc:So I rarely really take the time like I'm doing now to watch, you know, great movies or old movies.
Marc:And yeah,
Marc:I watched a Marilyn Monroe movie, and I don't know what it is.
Marc:Who doesn't know Marilyn Monroe?
Marc:Who hasn't seen Marilyn Monroe movies before?
Marc:But for some reason, I don't know that I contextualized her as the great actress that she is.
Marc:She's unbelievable to watch and so good.
Marc:Like, I watched this movie that she was just—it was one of her first movies.
Marc:She was a supporting role.
Marc:In Clash by Night.
Marc:It's a Fritz Lang movie.
Marc:I guess it's a Clifford Odette.
Marc:It's based on a Clifford Odette's play.
Marc:And Barbara Stanwyck's in it.
Marc:Paul Douglas.
Marc:Robert Ryan.
Marc:Robert Ryan.
Marc:That guy.
Marc:What a great fucking character.
Marc:He always plays this sort of edgy, kind of flawed, you know, bordering on anger type of character or beaten down guy who's got a chip on his shoulder.
Marc:And he's so fucking good.
Marc:And I'm watching this movie and it's still... The conceit of it is...
Marc:You know, a woman comes back to her hometown after having a life, a relatively sordid life.
Marc:That's Barbara Stanwyck.
Marc:She comes back to her house where, you know, her brother now owns the house and her brother's dating Meryl Monroe, who is this sort of kind of young person who's like trying to find her own identity and stuff.
Marc:And this is a movie from like 19...
Marc:It's like the 50s, I think, right?
Marc:52.
Marc:I guess it's a film noir.
Marc:And she decides to kind of lock into this basic dude, a simple man, a fisherman, played by Paul Douglas.
Marc:And she decides to sort of marry him because she thinks that she wants to live that life now.
Marc:This is Barbara Stanwyck.
Marc:you know, this kind of flawed, sordid, never happy person who's kind of been on the edge of, you know, teetering on the edge and fucking her life up.
Marc:So she marries this guy who's just a good-hearted fisherman guy.
Marc:And his friend is this Robert Ryan character who's this basically kind of a...
Marc:Drunky, aggravated, you know, never happy, slightly misogynistic, if not very misogynistic guy.
Marc:And, you know, they end up having an affair and it's just like, wow.
Marc:I mean, this is 1952 and I don't know why...
Marc:usually you watch old movies and you kind of put them into a context of like, well, this is an old movie, so they talk a certain way and it's framed a certain way and they act a certain way because it's back in the day.
Marc:But I'm starting to realize, and I don't know why I didn't realize it before, that these are grown-up fucking themes.
Marc:And if these characters are really written well,
Marc:which I'm sure the Odette's play was obviously engaging.
Marc:But the screenplay, I don't know the guy who wrote the screenplay, this Alfred Hayes fellow.
Marc:But it's like, this is real grown-up shit with flawed characters dealing with stuff that happens and dealing with feelings that happen and the repercussions of those actions and feelings.
Marc:And I just don't know why I never kind of...
Marc:fully appreciated the humanity of some of these old movies, because like, I just can't believe they're resonating in the way they're resonating.
Marc:Maybe it's because I'm an older guy, like I've said before, or, or maybe I've just never watched them properly.
Marc:But, but then it came to me, I was talking to my buddy lip site.
Marc:These were mainstream movies that, you know, we're in movie theaters and,
Marc:sometimes for a long time, that were written by adults, about adults, and about adult themes.
Marc:And I think that one of the reasons that they're resonating with me, there's a timelessness to the human condition that if explored thoroughly and realistically in terms of character—
Marc:uh, will always be sort of evergreen and, and always have a type of connection with the human spirit, which I'm finding.
Marc:But just the fact that we have been inundated in terms of mainstream movies with infantilized garbage.
Marc:And I think we've been sort of geared to think like, you know, these grownup movies, if, and when they happen, like I saw, um, um,
Marc:That new Julia Louis-Dreyfus movie that Nicole Holof Center filmed.
Marc:Oh, it's called You Hurt My Feelings, which was a grown-up movie about a grown-up relationship.
Marc:It wasn't dark, really.
Marc:But it's an indie movie, and there's a world of those things.
Marc:But these mainstream movies that had full juice...
Marc:and were designed as entertainment.
Marc:I'm just now kind of noticing, and maybe it's the ones I'm choosing or the ones I decide to watch, that they're fucking deep, man.
Marc:They live.
Marc:They live because the characters are not only flawed, but thoroughly explored.
Marc:And I don't know why I'm just noticing this now.
Marc:And I'm noticing it about so much of the stuff I'm engaging with.
Marc:Like, I think I've been on some sort of fucked up hiatus or shut down, obviously,
Marc:With COVID, we all watched a lot of movies, and obviously I dealt with a tragedy, but I don't know how many years it's been going on for that I don't thoroughly engage.
Marc:Maybe it's because there's some sort of vulnerability happening as I get older, where everything is having this effect on me and connecting me to art of different times in a different way.
Marc:But Jesus Christ, man...
Marc:I think, you know, on a basic level, it's just there is not a lot of grown up shit out there.
Marc:And I'm not sure how many of us are emotionally or psychologically or culturally really seek that stuff out or are necessarily grown up.
Marc:But to be able to reflect on yourself through film and through art and kind of place yourself in the time you live in and have that experience of the human spirit is important and nourishing and good for the soul, mind, and heart.
Marc:And I'm just, I'm kind of letting that happen and I'm seeking it out.
Marc:Like even like Joanna Gleason, her new movie, The Grotto, is an interesting film about grown-up stuff and about a relationship and a very specific type of a betrayal of sorts.
Marc:But it's just kind of mind-blowing that
Marc:that maybe I'm isolated.
Marc:Maybe I have not lived the life of a regular grownup.
Marc:Maybe I've, you know, because of my own psychological problems and trauma have sort of bungled through life.
Marc:But I'm telling you, finding some grounding to,
Marc:in these older films and these older explorations of character has been very kind of fulfilling.
Marc:Anyway, Joanna Gleason is on the show, and I loved talking to her.
Marc:If you're in or around Aspen, Colorado, you can see Joanna in a special performance of the play Masterclass on July 9th and 10th.
Marc:Go to aspenmusicfestival.com for more.
Marc:Again, the movie that I just mentioned, The Grotto.
Marc:There's a preview screening of of it in Fairfield, Connecticut on August 6th.
Marc:That's at the Sacred Heart University Community Theater.
Marc:And I believe this is her first film directing gig.
Marc:And we talk about it anyway.
Marc:This is me and Joanna.
Marc:Well, that was exciting.
Marc:I had not experienced the anxiety of a COVID test in a while.
Guest:It's very exciting.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, you do it every frigging day or every other day.
Guest:It's like nothing.
Marc:Well, no, I know.
Marc:But there was like time.
Marc:Yeah, I'm glad I did it.
Marc:It got me a little buzz.
Marc:It's the relief.
Marc:The moment of suspense.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Because I never feel great.
Marc:That's the funny thing about when people talk about long COVID.
Marc:I'm like, I don't know if I'd know.
Marc:Who would know?
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't feel great on a day-to-day basis.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But we did it, and you brought me some nice sourdough bread and Jewish stuff and initiated me.
Guest:Pickles.
Marc:Those pickles were good.
Guest:Those are from your farmer's market out here.
Marc:Wait, you found one out here?
Guest:The farmer's market, the third in Fairfax.
Marc:Oh, the real one.
Guest:Yeah, I don't live out here.
Guest:I live in Connecticut.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I thought you were out here.
Marc:No.
Marc:How long have you been in Connecticut?
Marc:17 years.
Marc:So you haven't lived here at all in a long time.
Guest:Not in 17 years, but I lived a lot of my life here.
Marc:I know, but oh, so that's, so what, so like what, Westport?
Guest:Well, Fairfield, which is like 10 minutes from Westport.
Marc:Yeah, well, that's where all the theater people go.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:To Connecticut.
Guest:There's like a whole community of us that are strewn about Connecticut now, and we're all like best pals.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:It's fantastic.
Marc:Like who?
Guest:Well.
Marc:Like old timers?
Guest:There are some old timers.
Guest:Keir Dulé, you know, Space Odyssey 2001.
Guest:And his wife, Maya Dillon, actress, fabulous.
Guest:They're out there?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Jill Eikenberry and Michael Tucker, they were on L.A.
Guest:Law.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're very close to us.
Guest:Patty Calember, big career.
Guest:Her husband, Danny Gerald, they're there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lynn Meadow runs the Manhattan Theater Company.
Guest:She's there.
Guest:John Tolans wrote this brilliant play.
Guest:I don't know if you saw it about Barbara Streisand's basement, her underground mall called Buyer and Cellar.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:And he writes for TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And his husband, Rob Carey, director, writer there.
Marc:So these are your neighbors?
Guest:Neighbor, yes, everybody's within, like, you can hold your breath and get to their house.
Marc:And you have parties and you eat with each other?
Marc:All the time.
Guest:Really?
Guest:All the time.
Guest:Cooking, eating, swimming.
Marc:I always, like, my first girlfriend's mother was in theater.
Marc:And she lived in, I think it was up in New York, but they ended up in Westport.
Marc:And she used to date Theodore Backell.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I knew him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I knew him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I knew him because I knew him through the community of my ex-late husband.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:I've been around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was in New York in the 80s.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Her name was, I think, Geraldine Kennan.
Marc:And she had a theater in one of those small towns.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think Alan Arkin was the Arkin boys.
Marc:They grew up together.
Marc:But it wasn't in Connecticut.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chappaqua.
Marc:Chappaqua, New York.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was Chappaqua, and then they were up in Westport.
Marc:But I always envied the strange, exciting, entertaining, engaged community of theater people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's of itself.
Guest:It is.
Guest:But also, we've done New York.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:We've done New York City.
Guest:You survived.
Guest:When we were younger, we did it for decades.
Guest:We did shows and shows and shows and shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then at one point, you get older and you just say, not so much for the city now.
Guest:And we have kids and grandchildren.
Guest:Right, of course.
Guest:The one-bedroom apartment.
Marc:No, unless you've got like a classic whatever, five or six or whatever.
Guest:Forget it.
Guest:Yeah, who has that?
Guest:We have like four acres and trees and land for what you can get a one-bedroom apartment for in New York.
Guest:So it became just a no-brainer.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So like, all right.
Marc:So what do you, but your dad was Monty Hall.
Marc:Indeed.
Marc:And I, like, and I met him, like, he was still pretty vital.
Marc:Both your folks were alive.
Marc:It was probably 2013.
Marc:I went to the house.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Sat with him.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I remember your mom came in.
Marc:I met your mom and I talked to your father.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:Canadian Jews.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Always like to hear about the Canadian Jews.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Winnipeg.
Marc:That's a lot.
Yeah.
Guest:So Winnipeg, still have family in Winnipeg, quite a bit.
Marc:You know, I can't talk shit about Canada anymore because I've applied for permanent residency.
Marc:Have you?
Marc:So I'm just trying to learn how to like hockey.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I can handle the cold.
Marc:I'm ready to go.
Guest:Yeah, you think you can handle the cold.
Marc:Well, I want them to process my paperwork.
Marc:So, well, I can handle it.
Marc:No, you don't think I can?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You have to ease into it.
Guest:You have to start with Connecticut.
Marc:I was in New York for years.
Marc:I was in Boston for years.
Marc:New Mexico.
Guest:I grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:I'm not moving to Winnipeg.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:I've got dual citizenship.
Guest:I've got two passwords.
Marc:Lucky you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You don't have to leave as a refugee.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would hope not to.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But no, I know Winnipeg's like the tundra.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you remember it?
Guest:Very well.
Marc:Did you live there?
Guest:No, I had family.
Guest:I would visit my grandparents.
Guest:My grandparents lived there, and then my dad moved them to Toronto.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Started his father, who was a butcher, in a business called the King Burger.
Guest:The King Burger was the size of this room.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:She indicates with the fur hands here.
Guest:Big burger.
Guest:Big burger.
Guest:And people would drive through and order a hamburger or a corned beef on something and French fries.
Guest:He had my brother and me, I was 11, my brother was 9, working this little stand.
Marc:Who invented the King Burger?
Guest:I don't know, but somebody came along and wanted to buy him out.
Guest:And my grandfather said no.
Guest:And who wanted to buy him out was McDonald's.
Come on.
Guest:And other great decisions.
Marc:So King Burger was a local franchise?
Guest:It was just him.
Guest:It was just King Burger.
Guest:It was just my grandfather.
Guest:It was Grandpa Morris.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And he was an old guy at that point?
Guest:He was maybe 60s, maybe 50s, 60s.
Marc:But they just wanted to buy him out so they could build a McDonald's.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:He said, well, you know, we'll buy you and you'll become a partner.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:I'm not going to do anything smart with foresight.
Marc:I'm working.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then, well, how does, and then what did you, where'd the family go after that, after Canada?
Guest:We moved from... We were in Toronto.
Guest:And then my dad set up his parents in Palm Springs.
Guest:In a little house in Palm Springs.
Guest:And then slowly had bought another house so that all the frozen aunts and uncles could come down in the winter.
Marc:But you never, as a family, lived in New York?
Guest:We lived, yes, we lived in Mount Vernon and New Rochelle.
Marc:What was your dad doing?
Guest:He was doing, he was doing Monitor.
Guest:He did, on Saturdays, he did Cowboy Theater.
Guest:This is my father hosted Cowboy Theater in a flannel shirt.
Guest:This is like so never been on a horse.
Guest:With a hat.
Guest:With a hat.
Guest:We actually just found a picture of him in a flannel shirt and my grandson in the same shirt.
Guest:And from New Rochelle, where we lived till I was about 11, then we drove across the country and moved to L.A.,
Marc:Like, that's early television, basically.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Guest:He also went in.
Guest:Remember the scandal, the 21 scandal?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He, while everybody was sorting things out, Dad came in as a— I saw the movie.
Guest:A great movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He came in as a temporary host for a while.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:While they were sorting out, you know— The quiz show scandal.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But he's doing early television now.
Marc:What are you doing?
Guest:Did you do— I'm going to school.
Guest:I'm, you know, I'm 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old.
Marc:But you knew your dad was sort of a TV guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He never brought it home.
Marc:And he never brought you to it?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:That was work.
Guest:You go to work.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:It's a broadcaster sensibility.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not an actor sensibility.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:And he was a broadcaster.
Guest:He started in radio in Canada.
Guest:And then he started in the TV.
Guest:In the TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he never brought his work home.
Guest:And even when Let's Make a Deal, when he created that with his partner, Stefan Hades.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it became the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's still the thing.
Guest:And Dad became international.
Guest:Famous everywhere.
Marc:And he was like, you know, he was a big presence in the culture in jokes and everything.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The show was always referred to.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Satirized.
Guest:Satirized.
Guest:And then there was in mathematics, there was the Monty Hall problem, the probabilities thing.
Guest:Oh, it's a whole thing taught in universities.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you switch doors when you're given the chance once you've picked one?
Guest:It's a whole thing.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He loved that.
Guest:He loved that.
Guest:You know, the critics razzed him about this show because they thought it was a bunch of idiots dressed up and stupid.
Marc:And they're like, welcome to America.
Guest:If you watch the pilot, which was 1963 or four, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The pilot has everybody is in a black dress with pearls and a suit and nobody's holding up signs.
Guest:Dad's just very like a very extended dinner party.
Guest:Let's play this game.
Marc:So I guess that's what shows look like.
Marc:Like even when I think about I just watched a recent clip from Groucho Marx's show.
Marc:Like when people were on TV, they dressed up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They wore socks.
Marc:So it's just over time, things loosened up.
Guest:Well, look what happened.
Guest:1964.
Guest:Then the Beatles come to television.
Guest:And then that's it.
Guest:And the war becomes a thing.
Guest:And the protesting becomes a thing.
Guest:And the hippie movement starts.
Guest:So things started to be, how do you attract attention?
Guest:And people started bringing signs.
Guest:And people started wearing costumes.
Guest:Dressing up.
Guest:And I'm sure Dad told you this.
Guest:So he said, we've got to let it go.
Marc:We've got to let it go.
Guest:I mean, we've got to let them do this.
Marc:You can't have a dress code anymore.
Guest:No.
Marc:Let's let the insanity reign, which actually made it bigger.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:But, like, who was I talking to?
Marc:Is it Wayne Brady?
Marc:Does he do it?
Guest:Oh, we love Wayne.
Guest:Dad had to kind of hand the mantle off when they were going to.
Guest:This show has been on in one form or another for 60 years.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's nuts.
Guest:But Dad was, because he owns a show, said, who now?
Guest:This was years ago.
Guest:And they auditioned a couple of people, and Wayne just was a shining.
Guest:He's just a shining guy.
Guest:He's just so talented.
Guest:He's an actor, and he's a singer.
Guest:He's a crazy singer.
Guest:And he took on this, and he's kept it alive and fabulous.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Is it syndicated?
Marc:How does it work?
Guest:It's on the network still.
Marc:Oh, it is?
Marc:I wonder what network.
Marc:Do you know?
Marc:What network did it start at?
Guest:CBS?
Guest:You know, it's been at a couple.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It started at ABC.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You got me.
Marc:Yeah, it's all right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you come out here and now...
Marc:Are you in the, are you growing up in the world of actors' kids?
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:Strangely, when I got to, when they moved to the house that you interviewed dad in.
Guest:In Beverly Hills?
Guest:That house, where they were in for 55 years.
Guest:They bought it in like 63.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Feet first.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Feet first.
Marc:A lot of that generation stayed in those houses.
Marc:Carl Reiner, I went and interviewed him.
Marc:Yeah, they'd be there forever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then a lot of the kids at Beverly Hills High School were showbiz kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But we were not really aware of who did what.
Guest:As I say, Dad didn't bring it home.
Guest:Their circle of friends were the comedy writers and directors.
Guest:Larry Gelbart was a friend of my folks.
Guest:He's in the pantheon.
Guest:And a lot of them who wrote for Carol Burnett and all the variety shows.
Guest:Dad knew everybody because he was also a member of Hillcrest Country Club, which were a lot of showbiz people.
Guest:They would come up to him...
Guest:Cary Grant.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Here's a story.
Guest:Yeah, Cary Grant.
Guest:Dad says to me, somebody's going to pick up an envelope.
Guest:They're going to just ring the bell and take it out to the car.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, why?
Guest:He said, well, I'm on a phone call and I have to do that.
Guest:So the doorbell rings and I open the door and there's Cary Grant.
Guest:And he's already older now.
Guest:He's white hair and the black.
Guest:In the glasses.
Guest:And I went, Hamana, Hamana, Hamana.
Marc:But your dad did that to you on purpose.
Guest:He did it on purpose.
Guest:And he knew everybody.
Guest:He was a president of the variety clubs.
Guest:So, yes, I mean, we got to meet everybody.
Guest:Frank Sinatra came up to me at an event and said, I saw you in Time Magazine.
Guest:I was in I Love My Wife on Broadway at the time.
Guest:And we were made Time Magazine.
Guest:He said, and I'm covering a song from the show.
Guest:I'm covering I Love My Wife.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:He said, do you want me to send it to you for approval?
Guest:I don't know how to talk to any of these people.
Guest:Completely tongue-tied.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Frank Sinatra.
Marc:Sinatra.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:And there's Ingrid Bergman.
Guest:You know, my mom did a movie with her, produced a movie that she starred in.
Marc:So your mom was a producer?
Guest:Late in life, she went to UCLA, got her master's in film.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:In her 50s, I'm talking about.
Guest:She produced, she won an Emmy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With Joanne Woodward and Richard Kiley for something about Alzheimer's called Do You Remember Love?
Marc:Huh.
Yeah.
Guest:She got Ingrid Bergman to agree to play Golda Meir.
Marc:Oh, I remember that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I have pictures of my mom sitting in the director's chair with the headphones on, looking at the monitor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's the happiest I've ever seen her.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I look at that picture.
Guest:I put it in my book for my script when I was directing The Grotto.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I just said, Mom, this one's for you.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:I watched a movie.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like a nice movie.
Marc:It's a very bizarre story.
Guest:It's a bizarre story.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And you just came up with that story.
Guest:I did, dragging threads of my life through it, you know, and fictionalizing parts of it.
Marc:That opening scene is pretty rough, man.
Guest:It's rough.
Marc:That's from your life?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay, good.
Guest:That is not exactly from my life.
No.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:It was a very creative way to go.
Guest:It's arresting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then in the very next scene, the tone shifts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A little with the plate, you know, the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you think, how are we going to do this?
Guest:How are we going to mix what happens to this woman's life?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With there's live music and there's funny and there's grief and there's drama.
Marc:The woman who played his mother briefly.
Marc:Caroline Aaron right is she she's related to is she related to him or is she just an actress Caroline oh my god Caroline I met when we started we were in Woody Allen movies that's right but she's not related to Woody oh she played his sister she played his sister the one that got shit on yes oh it's the best yes
Guest:A strange man defecated on my sister, I say to him.
Guest:And he just says, oh, no, he says to me, a strange man defecated on my sister.
Guest:And his line was, to me, he says, why?
Marc:Yeah, that's what you said, why?
Guest:I just say, why?
Marc:That's one of my favorite movies.
Marc:And that's where I became sort of mildly obsessed with your character because what a mean, attractive woman.
Guest:Mean, attractive.
Guest:He had a thing for her, and you notice they're all brunette, mean, attractive women.
Marc:Yeah, and I think you were the best one.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:That movie, when you tell Alan Alda that you met someone, it's so horrifying.
Marc:And you're so happy.
Guest:Everyone's so happy.
Guest:Everyone's so happy to get rid of this guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the fucked up thing about Woody in retrospect, given the accusations and the tarnishing of who he was, is you really start to, you know, you think he's a victim in that movie, you know, but it's hard to look at it that way anymore, you know.
Marc:But I still, that movie's beyond genius.
Yeah.
Guest:I think Crimes and Misdemeanors is one of his greats.
Marc:That's the one we're talking about.
Guest:I'm in that one, yeah.
Marc:And Hannah, right?
Marc:You're in Hannah?
Guest:Oh, and I'm in Hannah for 10 seconds.
Guest:It's my first movie, actually, ever.
Guest:And Hannah is beautiful because they were so beautifully crafted.
Marc:Those three movies, Hannah, Crimes and Misdemeanors, and Husbands and Wives.
Marc:And you can't see them anymore.
Marc:You can't see them anywhere.
Guest:You can't look at them without looking through the lens of everything.
Marc:No, that's right.
Marc:But they're not available.
Guest:They're not?
Marc:No.
Marc:You can't find them.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Um, because like, despite what you think of Woody, you know, all the performances in those movies and like Sidney Pollack in Husbands and Wives, Michael Caine.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, and, uh, Diane Wiest.
Marc:Diane Wiest in Hannah.
Marc:I mean, it's crazy, man.
Marc:Gorgeous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, they're just not available anymore.
Marc:But anyway, so your film, yeah, the story of it, like I didn't know where it was going to go, what it was going to do, but her, what's her name again?
Marc:Betsy Brandt, who plays the leading.
Marc:No, she's great.
Marc:I loved her in Breaking Bad, but the mother again that we were just talking about.
Guest:Oh, Caroline, Aaron.
Marc:She's so good in three seconds.
Guest:In three seconds, you get everything.
Marc:Horrendous.
Guest:You get everything.
Yeah.
Marc:Just a monster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She delivers.
Guest:She's my pal and I adore her.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is she in New York too?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You know, half that cast are people I know well.
Guest:That's what I figured.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So you're lucky when you get to make your first movie that you call up people and say, will you do this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They'd say yes.
Marc:And what was it like?
Marc:Why now all of a sudden?
Guest:Why now all of a sudden make a movie?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, have you thought about it before, or did you, like, you know... Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it seems like a long time coming.
Guest:Yeah, it's a long time coming, but it's not like I started trying to... It was on a show Diane English produced called Love and War.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She does Murphy Brown.
Guest:And I went up to her one day.
Guest:I had a role on that, and I said, can I...
Guest:On Sunday, I'd like to direct an episode.
Guest:She said, come sit with me in the editing room and watch how it's cut together.
Guest:She gave me an episode of Love and War.
Guest:Louis Anderson had a deal for six for CBS.
Guest:Just a short order, short stack of shows.
Guest:And she gave me three of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So actually, Diane was the one who said, you can direct, you can do this.
Guest:And then I directed Off-Broadway.
Guest:And then I'm going to drop a name.
Guest:I keep dropping people's names and they're all dead so you can't verify it.
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:We're not worried about it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But Mike Nichols said to me, you should be directing.
Guest:I worked with Mike three times as an actor.
Marc:But where does it, like going back, we'll come back around though.
Marc:I mean, so where does it start for you as an actress?
Marc:Here?
Here.
Guest:Yeah, I guess, you know, I got to do some great roles for some great people.
Marc:But like, were you doing like, were you just, you know, just doing the, making the rounds here, doing bit parts on TV shows?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I had, I was on a couple of series.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Early, early on?
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:When did you start doing it?
Guest:Well, I was, I came back from my Broadway debut in 78.
Guest:I was pregnant with my son, with Aaron, you know, and I came back and there was no work and I, you'd been on Broadway, big whoop.
Guest:And I was pregnant and I got this thing called Hello Larry with McLean Stevenson.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't McLean at first.
Guest:I kind of remember that.
Guest:Well, we went through three.
Guest:We went through Tommy Dreesen.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we went through Cliff Gorman.
Guest:Cliff Gorman was the first.
Marc:The first Hello Larry?
Guest:For the pilot.
Marc:I just had Dreesen in here.
Guest:You did?
Marc:I see him all the time.
Guest:Well, I'm sure he doesn't bring up Hello Larry as the first thing on his.
Marc:He brings up Frank Sinatra.
Guest:A lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, he's back, you know, I work at the comedy store and he's back doing sets over there.
Guest:Good for him.
Marc:And I'd interview him years ago, but we start talking backstage and he keeps telling me these mob stories.
Marc:I'm like, you've got to come on and tell these mob stories.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:And he's like, yeah, I don't know.
Marc:And I'm like, they're all dead, Tom.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You walk up to his car.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Turn on the ignition.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But OK.
Marc:So that's OK.
Marc:Hello, Larry, with McLean Stevens.
Guest:Yeah, that was a nightmare.
Guest:But it was a foot.
Guest:It was a toehold in in doing TV.
Marc:Did you study acting?
Marc:Did you just or what did you?
Guest:You know, I did it in high school.
Guest:I did it in college.
Guest:OK.
Guest:It seemed like a natural thing.
Guest:I studied for a little minute with Nina Foch.
Guest:Remember Nina Foch?
Guest:Great, great actress.
Guest:Great actress.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For 10 minutes.
Guest:And then I just started working.
Guest:That was enough?
Guest:10 minutes?
Guest:I started working.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:10 minutes was enough?
Guest:You learn by doing.
Marc:That's a hell of an acting teacher.
Guest:Well, you know, you get it or you don't.
Guest:You got it or you ain't, as they say.
Marc:I think that's true.
Marc:I do think that's true.
Guest:Not a lot that can be taught.
Guest:Except...
Guest:The rules and the form and the behavior and how to break down stuff.
Guest:But I have never been one for overworking or overthinking.
Guest:If the script is right in front of you and it's great, it's not a lot of research.
Marc:Well, that's your approach.
Marc:Everybody's got their thing.
Marc:And I find that as time goes on and that I'm doing some acting, you know, a lot of anyone's process is relative to how interesting you want to make it.
Marc:Because, you know, shooting TV is kind of tedious.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, definitely.
Marc:And shooting movies is tedious.
Marc:Is worse.
Marc:So, like, if you're going to spend five to six or eight hours in a trailer –
Marc:And you need to bring a lot to those three minutes you're on set?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Then go ahead.
Marc:Make it as interesting as you can.
Guest:Yeah, but the thing with casting is if they cast you for that reason, knowing that you're just going to bring it, you don't have to do much of anything.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But you like to believe that something's in place.
Guest:Yes, something's in place until you go to the premiere and they've cut out your best scene.
Guest:Never mind.
Marc:Does that happen?
Guest:Okay, yes.
Guest:All the time?
Guest:You know, and the thing is, the roles that came up in movies, apart from doing Two for Woody and doing Boogie Nights, which was like a big deal.
Marc:Oh, you were his mom.
Marc:Another mean lady.
Guest:Another mean lady.
Marc:Wow, and not a huge part, but you were a monster.
Guest:A monster, thank you.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Great, good job.
Guest:Terrified, terrified my son.
Guest:Did it?
Guest:He said, where did that come from?
Guest:I said, it's always been there.
Marc:It was pretty intense, man.
Marc:It's memorable.
Guest:Yeah, thanks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did a few more plays that were great, and I had a good time.
Guest:And then you're getting older.
Marc:But that's a big deal, though, man.
Marc:I mean, it's like doing little parts in TV shows.
Marc:TV and Broadway.
Marc:I'm dying to do a stage play.
Marc:And I don't know how much effort I'm putting into it, but I keep talking about it and eventually someone will go like, are you serious about that?
Marc:Because I haven't done it since I was in high school, but you were doing big shows.
Marc:What was your first play, Fiddler?
Guest:No, no, that was here.
Guest:I mean, I did everything at Civic Light Opera here, you know, Long Beach and in L.A.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I was at the music center.
Guest:I did Hamlet.
Guest:I went on for Ophelia because she left the show with Stacey Keech and the whole gang.
Guest:And I was like a very L.A.
Guest:theater.
Guest:I was doing a lot.
Guest:L.A.
Guest:theater.
Guest:But after I went to New York with I Love My Wife and came back to have Aaron and then watch everything fall apart, I went back to New York.
Marc:What, the marriage?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I went back to New York and there was like 10 really fat years of Into the Woods and doing the off-Broadway and doing the two Woody Allen movies.
Guest:And I said, oh, this is where I get to find out, can I do this?
Marc:Okay.
Guest:With any content.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So before Aaron was born, before the falling apart, you were just doing stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it felt like a minor league.
Guest:It did.
Guest:I mean, the only judge was in my head.
Marc:But also there's a difference between Long Beach Civic Light Opera and doing a show in the Ethel Barrymore Theater.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And that show at the Ethel Barrymore Theater, Ray Liotta was selling concessions.
Guest:In that theater.
Guest:For I Love My Wife?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Every time I'd see him, he'd come up to me and he went, I saw that show 54 times because I was in the back cell.
Guest:And I said, what a sweetie pie.
Marc:Because I don't live there and I don't see enough theater.
Marc:But my producer's a big theater guy.
Marc:He remembers when he's growing up, you're like huge.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There was a fat part of my career.
Guest:And it was really visible.
Guest:And it was lovely.
Guest:And it was everything I dreamed of.
Guest:New York and Broadway.
Marc:But you're telling me that you just did 10 minutes of acting school.
Marc:And then you did some civic light opera stuff.
Marc:Never took voice lessons.
Guest:Oh, I did take voice lessons.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Oh, I did.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:I had to.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Great couple here.
Guest:The Sweetlands.
Guest:Lee and Sally in the Valley.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Took from them.
Guest:And then somebody, Liz Kaplan in New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I have to get ready to do my show.
Guest:Because I'm not one of those gifted gals who just has these unbreakable, amazing instruments.
Marc:You don't belt it out?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:Like if they ever brought back crooning, you know what I mean?
Guest:I sing fine.
Guest:I've always sung fine and I've done well in the shows.
Guest:I don't have that indestructible kind of, and now with all the amplification and how big things are orchestrated, no.
Marc:Yeah, but your type of singing is really what you want for both cabaret and musicals because it has personality.
Guest:So that's what I thought I had to offer, and it's been a good thing to do.
Guest:It was a good choice.
Guest:But I still get terrified.
Marc:But like Into the Woods, I mean, that was a huge play.
Marc:It was.
Marc:And how did you get cast in something like that?
Guest:I auditioned on my birthday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was back in, you know, I was living in New York at the time and hadn't done well at a few auditions because you're always sitting in the waiting room in those days and you could hear the one, the girl with the trumpet voice.
Guest:The belting.
Guest:Yeah, she's in the room there and everybody's going, oh, fantastic.
Guest:You're so wonderful.
Guest:And I go in and I go, I've got one song I know from the Civic Light Opera in Los Angeles.
Guest:And I...
Guest:I might want no charts.
Guest:My dad's money off.
Guest:No, never.
Guest:I never played that card because it was of no value in the theater, much as I love him.
Guest:I walked in, and there's Stephen Sondheim and Jim Lapine, who wrote the book, and the great Broadway conductor, Paul Gemignani, and Paul Ford on the piano.
Guest:I have one song.
Guest:I've got one song.
Guest:What song?
Guest:It's What Did I Have That I Don't Have from On a Clear Day, which I did with Robert Goulet, directed by Sir Alfred Drake here at the Music Center and in Texas and in Seattle.
Guest:We schlepped around.
Marc:That's an interesting thing about Los Angeles is that there's very talented people who end up here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the theater scene doesn't seem to feel vital.
Marc:Maybe I just don't know.
Guest:There is a small what you would call off-Broadway, sort of off-L.A.
Guest:scene here.
Guest:And they bring in fantastic productions.
Marc:Like I saw a Tracy Letts show.
Marc:He ran Loma Linda.
Marc:You know, over here at the Mark Taper, I saw him.
Marc:Fantastic.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess I shouldn't make sweeping statements like that.
Guest:No, it's not fair.
Guest:It's not fair to L.A.
Marc:There's so many people here.
Guest:They are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So, OK, so you're in there with Sondheim and.
Guest:And I sing this song, and it's a ballad, and it's really slow.
Guest:I'm singing it really... The guy on the piano was playing it incredibly slowly.
Guest:I didn't really work this out too well.
Guest:And I'm singing and singing, and I'm just thinking, I hope I don't wake them, because they look very half-lidded there.
Guest:And when I was finished, they said, did you bring an up-tempo song?
Guest:And a little voice in me thought, this is the fork in the road.
Guest:I either say, no, sorry, so nice to meet you, and back out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or I do something.
Guest:And I said, no, but I can sing this one really, really fast.
Guest:And I just looked at the piano player and I said, just as fast as you can play it.
Guest:And so it became this crazed, and they were laughing and everything.
Guest:And then so they said, we'd like you to do it.
Guest:And that was the greatest gift I gave myself, was taking that little leap.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was literally, it was like, you can leap.
Marc:And it also was funny.
Marc:It was a joke.
Guest:It was a joke.
Guest:So they needed funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And they needed to know if I could handle a fast song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And quick thinking.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And up to that point, like, I mean, you'd already done a bit of Broadway, right?
Guest:Yeah, I had done I Love My Wife.
Guest:I think by that time I had done Joe Egg with Stocker Channing and Jim Dale.
Guest:What was that play?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:heartbreaking play british play um and stocker channing and jim dale were the leads and we did that off broadway and then it moved yeah to broadway house yeah um what else did i do a lot of off broadway stuff but like what was joe egg about joe egg was about a child who is born and and wheelchair bound yeah she's just talked about as as if she's just an inanimate object by the father
Guest:mentally disabled yes and the mother uh stalker is the one who tries to pump the heart and life and you know and this is a human and this is our daughter it's heartbreaking and you played the mother no I played the neighbors and she says there's a there's a Hirschfeld of me holding a cigarette with long blonde hair and this is finding it just you know uncomfortable to look at her the kind of that kind of thing yeah yeah people like us don't really want to see people like that you know that kind of thing yeah yeah and that was a big breakthrough role for me too um
Marc:As a dramatic actress?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because my producer, Brendan, says you were like Bernadette Peters and Betty Buckley.
Marc:You were like one of the main people.
Guest:Well, I love that.
Guest:But let me just take a moment here to say that Bernadette Peters has been at this since she was a toddler and is one of the most gifted...
Guest:magnificent human beings on the earth.
Guest:And Betty Buckley has, if you've listened to Betty Buckley's recordings of her singing when she was doing Cats and she was on The Tonight Show, there's never been a voice like that.
Guest:That's just it.
Guest:It's just like, I'll train you to sing like Betty Buckley.
Guest:I know you won't.
Marc:You can't.
Marc:Is Bernadette Peters, what's she up to?
Guest:Bernadette, she concertizes.
Guest:She does kind of go all over the world and has a beautiful act that she does.
Marc:Concertizes?
Guest:Is that what you call it?
Guest:Yes, I guess that's what I call it, yes.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So she's put together like a retrospective of her life in songs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A heightened cabaret.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Because it's usually done in a big theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And thousands of people want to come and see her.
Guest:And Mandy Patinkin does the same thing.
Marc:Mandy, I've talked to that guy.
Guest:No, he's just, I love him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like talking to an excited rabbi.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:We had a very nice conversation.
Guest:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, all right, so you do Into the Woods and you win the Tony, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so how does that change your life?
Guest:It's the great asterisk after your name.
Guest:You know, like Tony winner.
Guest:Tony winner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a point of identification for people.
Marc:And during this time, you've got an infant-ish kid?
Guest:Aaron is, at this time, about eight, seven or eight years old.
Guest:Seven, eight, or nine.
Guest:And...
Marc:And the father's out of the picture?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Paul, with whom I'm still very close, his dad who lives here.
Guest:Yes, long separated from Paul and about to see the fissures spread in my second marriage because I had married a lovely man named Michael when I moved back to New York.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right away?
Guest:Not right away, no.
Guest:I had a couple years.
Guest:How long did that last?
Guest:Almost 10 years.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So you lock in.
Guest:I do.
Guest:Eight years and 10 years.
Marc:I mean, come on.
Marc:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:It's like, you know.
Marc:Yeah, I had two marriages that lasted seven and a half, eight years.
Guest:This is a, we call this the college tribe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I didn't have kids though.
Marc:So I don't have, you know, I don't ever have to see them again and they don't want to see me either really.
Marc:Clean.
Marc:Yeah, totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the, okay.
Marc:So then are you single by the time you do?
Guest:I'm single by the time, after the woods finishes, I'm still married.
Guest:I'm still married.
Guest:And then here comes this huge opportunity called Nick and Nora.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You mentioned that in your show and your one person show that I watched.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It doesn't sound like it went well.
Marc:I don't know the story behind it.
Guest:It's based on The Thin Man.
Guest:They thought they'd make a musical about Nick and Nora Charles.
Guest:By now, my marriage to Michael had broken up.
Guest:I'm living alone, and Arthur Lawrence wrote the book.
Guest:He wrote West Side Story.
Guest:He wrote The Way We Were, The Turning Point.
Guest:And Arthur says to me,
Guest:This is amazing.
Guest:This is going to be a huge, huge hit.
Guest:I don't like your wig.
Guest:You look like a shop girl.
Guest:I went, Arthur, let's try on some other wigs.
Guest:And things like that.
Guest:So somebody felt Barry Bostwick was playing Nick and I was playing Nora.
Guest:It was going to be a huge hit.
Guest:Huge thing.
Guest:I mean, the Sunday New York Times, it was Dave Richards at the time, half of the page was me with Asta, the dog, the little dog, Asta.
Guest:Big glowing article.
Guest:Somebody, Phil Kasnov was originally cast to play a love interest to kind of take her away from Nick.
Guest:He, I guess, saw the light of day and bolted before rehearsals.
Guest:And Arthur said, I'm meeting somebody named Chris Sarandon.
Guest:For dinner.
Guest:Have you ever worked with him?
Guest:Do you know him?
Guest:I went, no, I've never worked with him.
Guest:No, but I'll come down for dessert.
Marc:Dog Day Afternoon.
Guest:Dog Day Afternoon.
Marc:That's what I remember him from.
Guest:Should have won the Oscar.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Lost it to.
Marc:Don't know.
Guest:George Burns.
Marc:For, oh, God.
Marc:Sunshine Boys.
Guest:Sunshine Boys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because everybody thought he was going to die.
Guest:And he lived another 25 years.
Marc:So Chris got Best Supporting nomination?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Sensational.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was a heavy role.
Guest:Sensational and brave.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he was playing Al Pacino's gay lover.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And.
Marc:Who was also a trans person.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was pretty.
Guest:Needed money to become a trans person.
Marc:Well, that was it.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Al was so good then.
Guest:It's a great movie.
Guest:It's a great movie.
Marc:John Cazal's.
Marc:Is that how you say it?
Guest:John Cazal.
Guest:It's a Cazal.
Guest:Yeah, great.
Marc:I just watched it.
Marc:Yeah, for some reason it's very fresh in my head.
Marc:I feel like I watched a bit of it.
Marc:And then I watched Godfather 2 recently.
Marc:Oh, that's what it was.
Marc:I went to the New Beverly.
Guest:Cazal.
Marc:And, yeah, Godfather 2, but they had a coming attraction.
Marc:I went to see the in-laws on film, and they had a coming attraction for Dog Day Afternoon.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it's right in my head.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, yeah, your husband was very good in that movie.
Guest:He was amazing.
Marc:But you hadn't worked with him, so he asked if you had worked with him, and you said no.
Guest:And I said, no.
Guest:And we started rehearsals.
Guest:I was separated and his marriage was kind of ending, but nothing was nothing, nothing, nothing.
Guest:But just kind of fixed on him across the rehearsal room.
Guest:We're going to do this big hit and I have to just, we can't have a showmance.
Guest:That's stupid.
Marc:But he's not the love interest.
Guest:Well, he is the threat to Nick and Nora.
Marc:He's the threat to Nick.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And at one point, we have to do, I go to his, Nora goes to his villa up in the Hollywood Hills.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's got sexy music on.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he comes toward her and they start to do a tango.
Guest:Well, this had to be choreographed.
Guest:And in rehearsal, they took us aside to choreograph me and Chris alone in a room.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they had these moves.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, I am in such trouble.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You'd really write down that.
Guest:I just can't stop thinking about this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we fell in love.
Guest:And, you know, the show opened, and I'm waiting in the wings one night, and we know we're tanking.
Guest:It's too long.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:No, Arthur never made any changes, and everybody was fighting, and the producers were screaming, and Charles Strauss and Richard Maltby wrote the score and the lyrics.
Marc:And he can't do anything.
Guest:I was helpless because I did not have the...
Guest:Joanna Gleason knows how to defend herself voice.
Guest:The one that would have said, cut the crap, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:This song doesn't work.
Guest:I do not look like a shop girl, but with this bathing cap wig on, I look like a sperm, this long thing with a thing on it.
Guest:I didn't know how to do that for myself.
Marc:You were kind of a star at this time.
Guest:I was a little bit.
Marc:You could have done a little diva number.
Guest:Yeah, but Arthur was very intimidating.
Marc:Very, very intimidating.
Guest:But I'm waiting in the wings one night to go back on, you know, bullseye on my tuchus.
Guest:And the dance captain, Kathy Murath, comes up, puts her arm around me, and she says, you know, all of us know that you and Chris are falling in love.
Guest:I mean, we can see it.
Guest:It's pretty clear.
Guest:And she says, we just think, all of us, just think that you should get on with it because, you know, you're not young.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But you were pretty young.
Guest:Listen, we've been together, it'll be 32 years this year.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:That's a good one.
Marc:So that one stuck.
Guest:This one stuck.
Guest:We stuck the landing.
Marc:Well, it's so nice because like, I mean, but how often, like Hugh Grant said something recently that I thought was very touching in a weird way was, you know, because he's become very kind of like give zero fucks guy lately.
Marc:And it's kind of glorious because he's so funny.
Yeah.
Marc:But he's talking about what it used to be like on film sets and stuff where it's like, you know, we used to be out having dinner and drinking and falling in love and having sex.
Marc:And now just people sitting on their phone and they're going home to do be on Twitter.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Like it seemed like part of the community of being either on a film set for six months or in a play for a year.
Marc:It was like Vegas.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Listen, we all did a play with Jack O'Brien, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, John Lithgow and Norbert Leo Butts.
Guest:And at the first rehearsal, Jack looked at all of us and said, I understand you're all looking around the room to see who you're going to have an affair with.
Guest:But I think those days are gone.
Guest:And we have work to do.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it was like that.
Guest:Oh, of course it was like that.
Guest:It was bohemian.
Guest:We were in the trenches together.
Guest:And nobody really at that time was tied down.
Guest:And nobody really had kids.
Guest:And the price of things... I had an apartment for $275 a month in New York.
Marc:Right.
Guest:A nice one.
Marc:I guess it does have something to do with that.
Marc:But that was of a generation.
Marc:I mean, it's like...
Marc:You know, the further away, like, after the advent of technology and then phones and computers and everything else, like, before that, you know, people were pretty close to the source of this stuff.
Marc:I mean, you know, like, just the sort of stonewall happened in your lifetime.
Marc:So, and what really defined the culture of New York, and certainly cabaret, was gay culture, which happened, you know, in the 60s.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it just, it strikes me, too, like, you know, just the notion of...
Marc:Some of what you address in the movie, in the grotto, there is a mention, which is still a mention of a generation of gay men, of the people that were lost during AIDS.
Marc:And then even in the one-person show that you did about your parents and about grief and stuff, there's a sense that this is a show for that community somehow.
Marc:That the nature of that type of performance is of that.
Guest:I owe my career to gay men.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:For them getting me, you know, and for knowing that it doesn't all have to be ingenues and soubrettes and that kind of, that there are the kind of women that they appreciate who are, who have the smart, the sophisticated, you know what I mean?
Guest:And can deliver the sly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they come out for you?
Guest:Yeah, they do.
Marc:Has anyone done you in drag?
Guest:Well, one, but it hasn't done me.
Guest:He's put on the costume of the baker's wife.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:He's very big.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I just, I don't know that I'm imitable.
Guest:That's the right word.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if I'm imitable, but I adore the gay community because of their support.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, but that's sort of what, you know, kept it.
Marc:You know, it's just a there's it's a weird thing that's happening now because, you know, it's not going to last forever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The community will.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the nature of New York cabaret life, New York theater.
Guest:Well, more theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Listen, the cabaret world, to my mind, is still purer.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:What's happening in the theater, particularly in the musical theater, is that, and for no lack of talent, however, the audience is too participatory.
Guest:There's no fourth wall anymore.
Guest:It's encouraged.
Guest:Well, it seems to be the stomping and the cheering and the singing along and the laughing.
Guest:And it also starts when you let them eat and drink, you know, and it doesn't feel the same.
Guest:It doesn't feel like they're there to see a story.
Guest:They're there to...
Marc:Be part of it.
Guest:Yeah, to selfie about the fact that they have been there.
Marc:It's like a ride at the park.
Guest:Well, Steve Sondheim said much of New York has become like an amusement park.
Guest:Much of the Broadway scene has become like an amusement park, a tourist attraction.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, now that it's like it's sort of – I was talking to some comics last night.
Marc:It was –
Marc:ran into Gaffigan last night, and there's this sort of trend with these younger comics where it's all crowd work to fuel TikTok videos.
Marc:And now the audience are starting to expect it, and they are actively trying to engage like that.
Marc:And we spent our entire careers just trying to get them to shut the fuck up.
Marc:And now, like, everyone's, you know...
Guest:Well, you remember on the Carol Burnett show, there would be times when Harvey Korman, you know, or Tim Conway would crack each other up and they fought, they fought against it, but you know, it would happen and the audience would laugh and it was, it was TV and it was a, you know, a half hour or whatever.
Guest:And you were, you were thrilled and you were in on the joke.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But when I've seen it happen on stage in a comedy, and it's pretty much, if you're doing it eight shows a week and you do it eight times a week, this is now something you've scripted.
Guest:It hasn't just happened.
Guest:I get resentful.
Guest:Because if you have to pander like that, to let the audience feel that they're in on it, and break that fourth wall, and I think, God damn it, I have paid a lot of money to come see this.
Guest:Deliver me the story, please.
Marc:Yeah, stay in it.
Marc:Stay in it.
Marc:Yeah, I guess maybe it's a demand thing, too.
Marc:I think that, you know, if it's enabled.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like you said, you're doing eight performances a week.
Marc:And if someone's like, if no one's telling you not to do that.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:You get sloppy.
Guest:We got a laugh Tuesday night.
Guest:Let's do it again.
Guest:Yeah, fuck it.
Guest:We got an accidental laugh Tuesday night.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I think the minute you make this plan, by the way, and I can tell if it's been a plan instead of unexpected, I'm out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:As an audience member.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, and my wrath runs white hot.
Marc:And what about when you're in a show where that happens?
Guest:Well, when you're in a show, have I broken up on stage?
Marc:Well, no, but I mean, have you ever been working with somebody that did it on purpose and you had to be like, what are you doing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there's all kinds of reasons why those things happen.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sometimes you just have to let it go.
Guest:And if it gets out of hand or if it blows up to be too big or if it throws you off of your game, your storytelling, then you say something about it.
Marc:How great is it when somebody loses their lines on stage?
Guest:Isn't that the most exciting thing?
Guest:You want to do a play in New York, Mark?
Marc:I do.
Guest:This is what I wish for you.
Yeah.
Guest:There's no prompter, you know, in a box.
Marc:It's just like I like when everyone's sort of scrambling to get back to where everyone needs to be.
Guest:It's happened where suddenly somebody goes, and if it had been that he did, you know, we're going to go pick up page 34 and bring you back to consciousness.
Guest:You watch.
Guest:Everybody's eyes are like little slot machine things.
Guest:Little Jerry, Jerry, Jerry Lemon.
Guest:It's hilarious, but not funny.
Marc:No, it's horrendous.
Marc:It's horrendous.
Guest:It's terrifying.
Guest:It's horrendous and terrifying.
Guest:It's happened to me.
Guest:I've lost a lyric in the middle of a song.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:And had the conductor just like double over laughing and go, what the fuck?
Guest:What are you laughing about?
Guest:I'm dying here.
Marc:Oddly, that is the tightrope of theater in a way.
Marc:And even if it's noticeable, unless it's a complete disaster, it's humanizing.
Guest:Yes, it is humanizing.
Guest:And by the way, as you get older, that thing of, oh, my own show, that show is 70 minutes, right?
Marc:What do you call that show?
Guest:Out of the Eclipse, the one that you saw about my parents and all the funny things.
Guest:There are times I'd be standing backstage.
Guest:I've rehearsed it.
Guest:We've done it.
Guest:We've done it for over two years.
Guest:We've done it all over the place.
Guest:Did it again last May.
Guest:That's the one that's streamed.
Marc:So do you have to bring your husband on the whole tour for the one song?
Guest:He said, when can you do a version without the...
Guest:It would be okay if, like, I've got a gig.
Guest:Do you need me?
Guest:So we've written, you know, like the alternate version where Chris doesn't come up.
Guest:But it's kind of nice when he does.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And we sing.
Guest:It's, like, a little nice.
Guest:Yeah, it's good.
Guest:But next time we do it, we'll probably do it without.
Guest:He goes, you know, I'm happy.
Guest:I'm happy to do it.
Guest:But do you need me?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a small part.
Guest:Very.
Marc:To travel for.
Guest:A cameo.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But, yeah, so you're saying as you get older, it gets hard to, yeah.
Guest:You just think, yeah, you're doing a play and it has lots and lots and lots of lines.
Marc:What's this thing you did with Klugman and Tony Randall?
Guest:Oh, there was a special benefit of The Odd Couple.
Marc:Right.
Guest:To raise money, two nights.
Marc:When was that?
Guest:Decades ago.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Jack had already had his cancer and it was already kind of like post-cancer surgery for his throat.
Guest:He couldn't talk much?
Guest:Not much, but enough that he could make himself.
Guest:He would fight.
Guest:Just fight.
Guest:Fight it through.
Guest:And you could understand every word he said.
Guest:And Tony.
Guest:And, God, Cleavon Little was in it with us.
Guest:I think Judd Hirsch.
Guest:Kate Nelligan and I were the pigeon sisters.
Marc:Judd Hirsch has been in everything.
Marc:And he's still in everything.
Guest:God bless him.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Need an old Jew?
Marc:Judd's ready.
Guest:He's your old Jew.
Marc:He's everywhere.
Marc:He played my dad.
Marc:He did?
Marc:On Marin, yeah.
Guest:Oh, wow, wow.
Marc:And he's just like, he'll work.
Marc:He likes to work.
Guest:Well, that's the thing.
Guest:You don't want anybody to say, you know, you're 65, you have to stop.
Marc:But he's like 90, dude.
Marc:He's like 90 and he's got like a young kid.
Marc:He's got to be 90.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now I want to know, but go ahead.
Marc:Yeah, it was a great night.
Guest:It was a great two nights.
Marc:But they'd never done it on stage before, right?
Guest:Not the two of them.
Guest:Not the two of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was it fun?
Guest:It must be fun to see.
Guest:I knew Jack a little bit, and he was spectacular.
Guest:And I knew Tony a little bit, and he was spectacular.
Guest:These are great guys.
Marc:These old people, these old comic actors and actors that were part of my childhood and they're all gone.
Guest:They're all gone.
Guest:This is really sad.
Marc:Well, you speak to it, I think, in the show, really, that there's a generational thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did a movie of the week with Jack Lemmon.
Guest:I played his mistress.
Guest:And there's a scene where we're on the couch and he's falling asleep, but he's got his hand on my blouse.
Guest:He's falling asleep with his hand on my breast.
Guest:And just before every take, he would say to himself, he'd say, magic time.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Listening to Jack Lemmon.
Guest:it's his thing before he's amazing yeah I got to work with a lot of the generation you know that in some ways feels like the last boat out because there's the new generation there's a lot of brilliant talent yeah brilliant sure
Guest:But there's still something, I don't know, missing about the decorum or somehow about really the delineation between being a child and an adult has been blurred because young actors don't really want to go into adulthood with all it means to them.
Guest:If it's freighted with, I don't want to be like my parents or I need to stay endlessly young and the pressure put on young girls and women to stay young.
Marc:I think it was also a smaller town and a smaller business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I, you know, that's what I always come back to is like, I don't know what the hell's out there.
Marc:I know there's a lot of, you know, good, you know, talented people and there's hundreds of shows that I'm never going to see, but there was a time where we all kind of saw the same people and they were a crew and they all kind of knew each other and it had a vibe, man.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The MGM, you know, the MGM group of people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're like the roasts when you'd watched the Dean Martin roast.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yes.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, those were the guys, and those were the days.
Marc:And what are the shows like nowadays?
Marc:It's high tech, right?
Marc:The tech is incredible.
Guest:Now, look, there are shows like, I want to go see The Life of Pi.
Guest:This beautiful movie has been made into, with puppets, with the thing.
Guest:I hear it's spectacular.
Guest:And the Harry Potter thing we took two of our grandkids to see.
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:They loved it.
Guest:It's great storytelling, and it's also greatly visual.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did some little plays, too.
Marc:Didn't you do a play with the guy who wrote The Humans?
Guest:Stephen Karam.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I interviewed that guy.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He's amazing.
Guest:We did Sons of the Prophet.
Guest:And we did it in Boston.
Guest:Then we came into New York off-Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's the kind of writer, and he's young.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would say to me after Boston, what do you think?
Guest:And I love it when an author, when a playwright or a composer comes to you and says, what do you think?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said to him, I think she says too much, and I think you don't need her to... And he said, I think...
Guest:You're right.
Guest:I want to cut.
Guest:I said, cut away.
Guest:Cut away.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:And it became, you know, it's a great play.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think that's the amazing thing about theater is that there is a point where, you know, if things are in previews and you have that freedom of knowing you're part of a workshopping process.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your input is needed.
Guest:Don't be precious.
Guest:If you look at the big overview.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How's he going to know?
Guest:How's he going to know?
Guest:Well, they feel something, but I'll tell you, an actor knows when what they're saying is not essential.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I physically get tired in my mouth when I have a speech that I just don't think I need to say.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:All the letters out my big toe, and I just say, do we need this?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I can show you more than I need to tell you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think that's better.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:Always.
Marc:Always.
Marc:If you can act it.
Marc:So, so the, um, the movie, uh, you, you directed a little bit of television early on.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Diane had some sitcoms and some for lifetime on a show called Oh Baby and a playoff off, off Broadway in New York.
Guest:Um,
Guest:But I started to write this movie based on the fact that I know what it is for a woman to completely lose her bearings and be in her 40s.
Guest:This happened before I met Chris, but I placed it as a woman in her 40s.
Guest:Marriages fall apart.
Guest:There's a betrayal.
Marc:There's a kind of fraud that has been pursued.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because it's complicated.
Marc:Because, you know, the implication for, I mean, we can say, or you don't want to?
Guest:No, you can say.
Marc:Well, I mean, the idea that a man is living a secret life with a lover of the same sex and still married to somebody or seeing somebody else.
Marc:Happens all the time.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's different than if he was just fucking some lady.
Oh.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:It's a different kind of betrayal.
Guest:And it hurts a woman in a different way.
Guest:It does.
Guest:And it knocks the pins out of her self-confidence.
Marc:And also, like, you know, how is it... It's like... It's almost there's a...
Marc:It's gaslighting, but there's something sympathetic about it.
Guest:There is because he's trapped.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And he can't... He can't.
Guest:And you look at how he decided to get out of his own predicament.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That's the opening of the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The opening of the movie is not... The movie has, I guess, three or four gay characters in it, men, but it's not a gay movie.
Guest:It's about the fact that there is a part of the gay community that rallied around her...
Guest:And loved her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In time.
Guest:In time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Her husband should have been just one of those kinds of friends to her.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, because women need these gay men, I'm telling you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can turn to them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because there's no sexual agenda.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there's no, you don't have to raise your cheekbones and put on, you know, mascara.
Guest:It's just like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a genuine, authentic relationship there.
Guest:So that's.
Guest:That's the underpinning of part of her grief.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he is lost to her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to himself.
Guest:And has left her something of seemingly no value.
Guest:That's this nightclub.
Marc:It's an odd place.
Marc:It's like it's one of those almost mythical places.
Guest:I created it.
Guest:And, you know, there was a movie, The Song of Bernadette.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:In the 40s.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's in the movie.
Guest:It's in the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I was a kid, I watched this movie, nice Jewish girl, watching about The Song of Bernadette.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's an evil nun who is sure that Bernadette, this peasant girl, is lying when she says that a vision of the Virgin Mary has come to her and that she can correspond, she can talk to and hear.
Guest:She goes, you're lying.
Guest:You're not worthy.
Guest:You're a peasant.
Guest:I'm a nun.
Guest:You're crazy.
Guest:You know, this kind of thing.
Guest:And when you're 12 years old, the evil nun is your mother.
Right.
Guest:my sweet mother doesn't matter you're 12 and she doesn't believe you and that your heart is breaking and the garden variety stuff so this movie stayed with me but i had faith somehow as a kid yeah i had faith that there are miracles and i had faith that things can change yeah and i saw signs in everything a little woo woo yes this is you as a kid this is me as a kid and now to this day
Marc:Well, I know because it's a theme that comes up in the clips.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So the movie, though, and what's that actress's name again?
Guest:Betsy Brand.
Marc:She's so good.
Marc:She's wonderful.
Marc:She lives in the East Coast?
Marc:No, she's here.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So where's that movie at?
Marc:What's happening with it?
Guest:We have now played... We've been in four festivals.
Guest:We're in four more.
Guest:There's eight official selection festivals.
Guest:We've won an award in each of the festivals.
Guest:Best feature, the jury prize, best original screenplay, and Betsy, best actress.
Guest:And we have four more about to... I don't know when this is going to air, but four more to come.
Guest:So what's happening, they've played the Bay Area, the Bayou, Annapolis, Indiana, and...
Guest:Who's doing this?
Marc:The producers?
Guest:No, these are where the festivals are.
Guest:We have scored majorly with the audiences and with the juries.
Guest:So what we're hoping is that a streamer comes and says, we'll put eyeballs on this.
Guest:Let's give you a run.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:That's where it belongs.
Marc:So you'll see.
Guest:We'll see.
Marc:Yeah, it's going to go somewhere.
Guest:I believe it will.
Guest:You can't have reviews.
Guest:I got better reviews for directing and writing this movie than I ever got as an actor.
Guest:I just thought, wow.
Wow.
Marc:But there's plenty of streamers.
Marc:It's always baffling to me that if something's complete and has some pedigree and some skill and it works.
Guest:I did the work for you.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just put it on.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Just put it on.
Guest:So we'll see what happens.
Guest:We're doing a screening this weekend for the casting crew and friends and family.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Who can finally see on a big screen because we've all been watching it on these little monitors.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So they haven't seen it?
Guest:No.
Marc:And the one-person show, like, I thought it was, like, in that having discussed grief on stage myself from a personal point of view.
Marc:It's obviously like we were talking about before we got on here.
Marc:It's a different thing when your parents are in their 90s.
Marc:And that, you know, they're—but I thought it was very—
Marc:There's something very specific outside of the music and the recollections of who your parents are and their habits and what made them amazing people and also your own life threaded through it.
Marc:There's something about the idea of people thinking they will be at each other's side.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then the whole reality that when they were both sick at the same time.
Guest:They couldn't do it.
Marc:It's horrible.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:I made a short film about just that, a 14-minute film about my mom's last day and him having to be dragged in to say goodbye.
Guest:But what I wrote was the ending I wanted them to have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:what i wanted her to have yeah but they were both so mad at each other i guess for getting old and frail really i think so i you know 70 years is a long time i know but like but they were incapacitated that's why they couldn't go down the hall right well they could go down the hall and mom i watched mom kind of she had about 12 things wrong with her but not anyone was going to take her right away yeah said the doctor
Guest:And I watched her just kind of go, I'm done.
Guest:And watch how she stopped engaging, stopped eating.
Guest:We'd rally her.
Guest:At some point, the doctor said, you know, when she's very close to passing, stop cheerleading her back.
Guest:It's agitating.
Guest:So that was mom.
Guest:But then dad, who was on dialysis at home every night, he just was like, why is this happening to me?
Guest:But then I saw him...
Guest:just start to and when you just watch it firsthand you know one of the prime difference is we never envisioned our entire life with our parents right good run it was a great run yeah you know they had almost 70 years together and you expect your folks to go yeah but you know you you expected to maybe have a future that's right and that's a very big thing
Marc:Terrible.
Marc:Even if you imagine something awful happening to yourself or somebody you love, you don't assume it's going to happen.
Marc:And I would have never thought that what happened happened.
Marc:So they were just mad that they were old?
Guest:Dad got pneumonia and went into the hospital, into like a VIP room.
Guest:And he got over it in five days.
Guest:Mom came every day with the soup from Jerry's deli and the thing.
Guest:She was at his bedside.
Guest:He goes home after five days.
Guest:She gets pneumonia.
Guest:She's in intensive care for five weeks.
Guest:She's in a quiet little black little room, you know, with all the telemetry.
Guest:She's pissed.
Guest:She says, why was he upstairs and why I'm in the...
Guest:So it's like about why am I not in the VIP room?
Guest:Mom, you've got pneumonia.
Guest:And they've got the CPAP thing on her and they're draining her lungs.
Guest:And he didn't, we would get him to the hospital.
Guest:He was like in a wheelchair.
Guest:He's got already a lot.
Guest:He'd sit in her room and he'd fall asleep.
Guest:Or he'd sit in her room, read the paper for a minute and fall asleep.
Guest:And what she wanted was for somebody to go, how's my girl?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, sweetheart.
Guest:Oh, sweetie.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he didn't do it.
Guest:He couldn't do it.
Guest:He was mad at her.
Guest:Why isn't she getting better?
Guest:She's not trying.
Guest:She needs an antidepressant.
Guest:We go, dad, you're talking crazy.
Marc:It's all his own fear.
Guest:It's fear.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Fear you're going to lose her.
Guest:But what would it hurt you?
Guest:She wants you to be her... Isn't that weird?
Guest:He couldn't do it.
Marc:Was he that before?
Guest:No.
Guest:This is a man with such a soul and rachmonis, and he was great and tender and just a mush pot.
Guest:Just a soft, chewy caramel center, this guy.
Guest:But when it came to her, and she was mad that he got her sick, it became this...
Marc:But so like but like I'm just trying to put it together for myself that so he was all those things.
Marc:But when it came to to to sort of overcoming his own self to be selfless for her, it was always difficult.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a little bit of how can you do this to me?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's a self-centeredness thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a shame because when she died, he surrounded himself and he was now bedridden in his room down the hall.
Guest:Surrounded herself with the big blow up pictures from her funeral.
Marc:He surrounded himself with that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He had them in the bed.
Guest:Look how beautiful.
Guest:My most beautiful girl.
Marc:And she's gone.
Marc:She's gone.
Marc:How did he respond when she passed?
Guest:He had had a... I mean, here we go.
Guest:This is where the family can sit around and laugh the laugh of the damned.
Guest:But he... She was upstairs, and he was on the couch downstairs, and I was there, and Chris was there, and my sister, and my brother-in-law, and my brother and my niece were all kind of around with him.
Guest:He had stopped taking his medication.
Guest:We don't know why.
Guest:Didn't want to eat.
Guest:And the nurse came down and said, Mr. Hall, she's trying to let go, and she needs you to give her permission.
Guest:Now, this is already...
Guest:This is too woo-woo for my father to contemplate, that he has any control over this, or that he has any participation in her passing.
Guest:So we're all going, yeah, Dad, come on, just say, I love you, I forgive you, please forgive me, I'm sorry, whatever the thing is, the ritual.
Guest:And now he's like King Lear, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Like a madman on the heath.
Guest:And I went, Dad, Dad.
Guest:He was so outraged, we all ran into the middle of the street and were crying and screaming, like, what is going on?
Guest:Let her go.
Guest:We're standing in the middle of the street with each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We go back in.
Guest:Dad has a heart attack.
Guest:So they take him to Cedars.
Guest:There's no room in Cedars.
Guest:Even for the Monty Hall wing, whatever is there, his name on the plaque.
Guest:There's no room, no beds.
Guest:So they take him to another hospital down on Olympic.
Guest:And there he is, and he's fine.
Guest:And that night I'm staying at my sister's.
Guest:My husband and I are at Sharon's.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sharon knocks at our door at midnight.
Guest:And she says, mom died.
Guest:They just called me.
Guest:I'm going to go over there and make sure that, you know, everything's taken care of.
Guest:You go tell dad in the morning.
Guest:So in the morning I go to this hospital.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's lying in bed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I have to be the one.
Guest:I go, okay, dad, how are you feeling?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, mom passed last night.
Guest:What?
Guest:I said, yes, she passed.
Okay.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:And something so deep in him that we couldn't access, and he couldn't make it accessible to us, just went boom, like that.
Guest:Then, of course, he says, well, I have to go to her funeral.
Guest:I went, Dad, you've just had a heart attack.
Guest:People would understand, no, what will people think?
Guest:I went, Dad, what will they think?
Guest:They think you've had a heart attack, and you...
Guest:So we got an ambulance and we got his clothes and we got him dressed.
Guest:And we got my cousin who's a doctor and in the ambulance.
Guest:And then we get him.
Guest:And he did come to her funeral.
Guest:But he was hollowed out.
Guest:He was just hollowed out.
Guest:And then it was just a matter of, you know.
Marc:Well, it's interesting.
Marc:Did you ever think that, like, he had the heart attack to make it about himself?
Guest:It certainly was a way not to think about her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, he was, look, he was 96.
Guest:He was a sickly kid.
Guest:I talk about this in my show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was just sick as can be, and he died on Yom Kippur.
Marc:I was born on Yom Kippur.
Guest:Then you're a righteous man.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can I just say, that does it automatically?
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Mark Maron, righteous man.
Marc:What if you die on it?
Guest:Righteous man.
Marc:Born or dead?
Guest:Although dead.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Righteous man.
Marc:Huh.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:Both of mine are hanging on.
Marc:My dad's losing his mind.
Marc:My mom seems okay.
Guest:About him losing his mind?
Marc:Well, they're not together.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:We're all just happy that his wife is still sort of managing him a bit.
Marc:And I know it's going to happen at some point.
Guest:No matter what you feel about your parents.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a thing.
Marc:I'd like it to happen before me.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think that would be a good idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it's interesting, though, like, you know, when – because, I mean, how do you feel – you know, what was the most difficult part about talking about it and doing the show?
Marc:Because, like, you had a lot of time to –
Guest:to spend with them and watch this whole process was there things you needed to work out on stage is there something cathartic about it yeah it was very cathartic for me it was it was cathartic because it was artistic right that's how i like to i always like to be making something yeah some sort of storytelling right that where i guide the narrative right and it's just not uh entertainment tonight calling me up and going we hear your dad died give us a quote i said i want to do like better than that yeah
Guest:And I think there's a way to do it that weaves in how I feel about it.
Guest:I'm older now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And about the songs and meeting Chris and crazy and somehow can I make it all come together and still be sentimental without being maudlin.
Guest:Right.
Guest:About them because when I sing this last song with a song in my heart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's about my grandson and my dad.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:About how they would have, that would have been such an old light goes on.
Marc:Well, that's how you tie in the mystical thing.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That he wouldn't accept.
Guest:And then the light goes on and he wouldn't accept it, but he would have loved it.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:I think they would have loved the show.
Marc:He's stubborn.
Guest:Oh, very.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Stubborn, but amazing.
Guest:He had to be stubborn.
Guest:He had everything going against him as a kid.
Guest:Everything.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's a sweet show.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And, you know,
Marc:Well, you know, we both talk about that weird mystical thing, you know, wanting to believe there's something.
Marc:But you play that against him refusing it all the way through.
Guest:No magic, no magic, no magic.
Guest:No magic.
Guest:But her in the lights.
Guest:No magic.
Marc:I know, the birds, the hummingbirds.
Guest:Lynn in the microphone and the hummingbirds.
Guest:Come on.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I'll go with it.
Guest:You got to go with it.
Guest:Because you know what?
Guest:I go with it because it feels, okay, here's the thing, case in point.
Guest:Whenever my sister and I were together, when I'd come out here, she used to have, I talk about it in the show, this wall of ficus bushes with the solar lights.
Guest:They only ever in 30 years went on at my mom's shiva when the guitarist was playing Here Comes the Sun, her favorite song.
Marc:Coincidentally.
Guest:They never, and they went, and everybody saw it, and everybody screamed.
Marc:But the song was not planned either.
Guest:Not even, no.
Guest:Nobody told him.
Guest:All right.
Guest:So then when I would come to California, Sharon said, I've never seen it.
Guest:They're not again.
Guest:But we're together.
Guest:I go, Mom, we're together.
Guest:I'm about to direct the grotto.
Guest:Boom.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Swear to God, we have it on film.
Guest:One light bulb with water in it because it's been so old sitting there, not connected.
Guest:It happened several times.
Guest:The night we wrapped the grotto, my brother and I and my sister are standing on her back deck, and Richard said, have you seen the lights again?
Guest:I said, you know, it's happened a few times.
Guest:He says, all right, I got to go.
Guest:Boom, the light went on again.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:My mother always referred to the house that I bought with Chris in L.A.
Guest:many years ago.
Guest:She said, I don't know.
Guest:It's just so Boraxe.
Guest:I said, mom, what do you, what?
Guest:Borax.
Guest:Borax.
Guest:It's like this white starchy kind of like borax.
Guest:And we just, we would laugh about it because we had no idea what you meant.
Guest:I'm with my sister now, flew out here to be with you.
Guest:What is the wordle yesterday?
Guest:Borax.
Guest:A word nobody even knows.
Guest:And I put it in, I go, mom, you stop with the lights?
Guest:Now you're in wordle?
Marc:It's nice to have that conversation.
Guest:It is.
Marc:There's no way to prove anything, but you are in relation to actively.
Guest:Who's to say that the energy isn't around you?
Marc:Why not?
Marc:Why talk yourself out of it?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Well, it was good talking to you.
Guest:Good talking to you, too.
Marc:Here you go.
Marc:That got deep.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Again, check out The Grotto if you're in or around Fairfield, Connecticut on August 6th.
Marc:It's screening at the Sacred Heart University Community Theater with a Q&A with Joanna afterward.
Marc:And hang out for a minute.
Marc:Okay, look, for Full Marin listeners this week, we posted another collection of third-act comedy segments from the early days of WTF, including this one with my dad.
Guest:And I was thinking, you know, if he's got this land and you've got some connections, you've got a few people that you want to set up there near Ruido, so I don't know where it is near.
Guest:You know, you have to go out and look at it.
Guest:And you want to set up access there and put up a playhouse and whatever, a little bit of that, and run a showplace out of there and be...
Guest:and be a radio personality, which you would seem to like to do, you've got an option here to do it.
Marc:No, no, I mean, I think it's an interesting idea that, you know, I'm doing it out of my small garage behind my house, but somehow or another that if I had a lot of land, that that would somehow make it better, easier for me to do radio, just because Imus is down the street.
Marc:I like the idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:that somehow or another in your mind look imus has got property nearby so i figure if you get my son set up on a compound that him yeah he maybe could just hijack some imus's signals or maybe who knows pop maybe i could call imus and say hey why don't i just run a wire from your place down to down in my house and we'll you know we'll just fuck well i'll be on your like a secondary channel
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Let's have the bull rider call Don Imus.
Marc:And then you get me and you conference me in.
Marc:And then you can be there, too, in case people aren't clear about it.
Marc:So let me get this idea.
Marc:We got the rodeo rider and we got Don Imus and you on the phone.
Marc:And you say, look, Don, my son wants to do radio.
Marc:And my friend who rides bulls, he's on the phone, too.
Marc:He's got somewhere not far from you.
Marc:So I figured there's got to be a way we can work this out.
Marc:You know what happened after that?
Marc:They would take you to the hospital.
Marc:They would take you to the hospital.
Marc:Check out the latest Archive Deep Dive and the past year of bonus material in the full Marin by going to the link in the episode description and subscribing.
Marc:Or you can go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.
Marc:All right, here's a little psychedelic thing that I like these chords.
Marc:I like them.
.
.
Thank you.
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey and LaFonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:I screwed up a little.
Guest:Just one little second.
Guest:But I didn't want to redo it.
Guest:I didn't want to redo it.