Episode 145 - Gallagher
Guest:are we doing this really wait for it are we doing this wait for it pow what the fuck and it's also what the fuck what's wrong with me it's time for wtf what the fuck with mark maron
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what-the-fuckers?
Marc:What-the-fuck, buddies?
Marc:What-the-fuckineers?
Marc:What-the-fuck-nicks?
Marc:What-the-fuck-a-nots?
Marc:What-the-fuck-a-ricans?
Marc:What-the-fuck-skis?
Marc:All right, enough of that.
Marc:How's everybody doing?
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is WTF.
Marc:I am still in Portland, Oregon, looking out of my hotel window.
Marc:Let me open it up a little bit.
Marc:Down at the highway.
Marc:I'm not sure what highway that is, but...
Marc:What a view.
Marc:The convention center and the highway in the amazing Pacific Northwestern sky.
Marc:I've had a great time in Portland.
Marc:I want to thank all of you WTFers for coming out.
Marc:Great shows.
Marc:A lot of nice presents.
Marc:I swear to God this barter system thing is working for me.
Marc:I didn't have to buy food almost all week because I'm stocked in my room.
Marc:Loaves of artisan bread.
Marc:Tons of cookies.
Marc:Banana bread.
Marc:I just enjoyed some hand...
Marc:jarred, smoked, what do you call it?
Marc:I guess it would be salmon strips in oil.
Marc:I don't know if it's a Jew thing or what, but I guess it's also a Northwestern thing.
Marc:It's an Inuit thing.
Marc:There's something about smoked fish that seems to be genetically resonates with me.
Marc:I don't know if it's a lox, but any smoked fish, even though it smells shitty and now my entire body seems to be covered with a thin film of salmon, I like it.
Marc:So I sat up here pulling strips of salmon over out of a mason jar of oil and spreading them on some sort of chickpea sourdough bread brought to me by a fan.
Marc:The salmon was brought to me, and I got to thank these people because they traveled, or she did, Kiki and Matt.
Marc:Kiki came down from Alaska.
Marc:Fairbanks, Alaska to see me.
Marc:It's always a lot of pressure when that happens because when he emailed me that his wife was coming down to see me, and I, of course, thought immediately, yeah, it's a long way to go.
Marc:I hope I'm okay.
Marc:I don't want her to be disappointed.
Marc:And she seemed very happy, took some pictures, got some salmon, some jelly, got some CDs, some books, some shortbread, some Stumptown coffee, some hot sauce.
Marc:I got to buy a new bag just to get out of this town.
Marc:It's an interesting place.
Marc:Portland was very threatening to me.
Marc:Oh, and by the way, I'm gonna play the Gallagher thing.
Marc:Gallagher wanted to come on the show.
Marc:I'm not sure he wanted to come on the show, but his manager contacted my manager.
Marc:He lives here.
Marc:Gallagher was in town doing an event and his manager wanted him to do a guest spot on my show, which I decided against.
Marc:I didn't see how that would be good for anybody.
Marc:I don't know him.
Marc:I don't have any experience with him.
Marc:I don't know what he's doing now.
Marc:And obviously I've only heard negative things about him recently.
Marc:I know what he is.
Marc:I know what he does.
Marc:I didn't have any particular problem with him.
Marc:I do not think I would have asked him to be on the podcast otherwise if he hadn't approached me through his representation or if they hadn't approached me without him knowing it, whatever the case may be.
Marc:I've been asked to have him on after some articles came out not long ago in The Stranger and The Onion AV Club talking about Gallagher, his recent performances.
Marc:his racially insensitive jokes, his homophobic jokes.
Marc:He seemed to have been getting a, you know, in the alternative culture.
Marc:I don't know how far it's really spread.
Marc:I imagine it's picked up some steam that he was some sort of right-wing whack job with, you know, a racist agenda or a homophobic agenda.
Marc:And, you know, sadly...
Marc:After I re-listened to what happened between us, you know, that's what I went on.
Marc:I did want to put him into the context of comedy, into the history of comedy, to appreciate what he did.
Marc:Because despite whatever you may think of him now, I know a lot of you people out there listening probably loved him when you were 11 or 12.
Marc:He had a tremendous career in show business for doing what he did.
Marc:He is a household name, as is his brother, for stealing his brother's act or at least not stop doing the act after his brother said not to.
Marc:I don't really know.
Marc:I was going to get into that stuff.
Marc:I wanted to get into a lot of stuff since I had the opportunity, but I'm not sure I handled it well.
Marc:I started to have the conversation when I saw the moment to seize the conversation and talk about some of the recent controversies.
Marc:It kind of went off the rails.
Marc:And he left my hotel room.
Marc:So he stormed out of my hotel room.
Marc:He was perfectly...
Marc:I don't know if I would say pleasant, but I really was not trying to offend the guy.
Marc:But in listening back to it, in order to get a word in edgewise, I was fairly argumentative.
Marc:I had no real agenda to tear him down or anything.
Marc:I was just trying to ask questions.
Marc:And because of his elevated tone, my tone elevated.
Marc:And in retrospect, after listening to it, I sort of felt...
Marc:Not necessarily bad, but it made me think about a lot of things about comedy.
Marc:It made me think about how the arc of anyone's career may still be disappointing no matter how much success you have.
Marc:The desperation at a certain point in one's career can be very daunting to the point where you just don't understand why you're in the position you're in.
Marc:I again, I'm being empathetic because in listening to the thing, I think I was a little bit aggressive.
Marc:I will take responsibility for that, though.
Marc:I thought some of the stuff we talked about was interesting, and I will play that for you in a minute.
Marc:If I could just talk about Portland for a few minutes before we get into that, can we all just relax for a second?
Marc:I had a misjudgment of this town.
Marc:I really thought that this town, you know, it wasn't that I didn't like it.
Marc:It's completely the type of town I would like.
Marc:There seems to be a fairly strong, socially tiered operation going on here culturally.
Marc:It seems to be a fairly liberal town, like there's liberal people and there's people that just go off the grid.
Marc:There are people here that came here to live the life that they wanted to live outside of the way the rest of the world lives, which I can certainly appreciate.
Marc:There seems to be a fairly hearty, kind of aggressively vegan, maybe a little bit of the, you know, hey, we're squatters.
Marc:We don't mind eating out of trash cans.
Marc:It's cool.
Marc:And then just above that, there seems to be a fairly tolerant, seeking liberal community that's like, well, we don't throw everything away, even though we know what they're eating it.
Marc:We do recycle some stuff, but they're free to take that out of the blue bins if they want.
Marc:And then there seems to be the bearded ones, the sort of troll-like elfin people that can roam freely through all different sects of culture.
Marc:Not a lot of black people.
Marc:I have not seen a lot of black people.
Marc:I asked the people of Portland whether that was a coincidence or something that's enforced.
Marc:I didn't
Marc:really get an answer.
Marc:But I always had this feeling when I was here that I somehow didn't fit in.
Marc:I literally thought the last time I was here, I might have talked about this on another show, that I thought people were looking at me like they were all on their way to a meeting of some kind about me.
Marc:And in retrospect, knowing who I am, that probably had something to do with me.
Marc:But I always sensed that there was something going on that I didn't quite understand.
Marc:I took it personally somehow.
Marc:And then I realized after meeting about 10 people here, nine of whom had only been living here less than a year,
Marc:They were probably looking at me the same way.
Marc:Yeah, basically, I wonder how long that guy's been living here.
Marc:I hope I don't look like I don't belong here.
Marc:Portland is one of those places where people come when they've run out of options.
Marc:And that's not to say that it's not beautiful.
Marc:It's a beautiful place to come when you've run out of options and try to rebuild your life.
Marc:It definitely has its own personality.
Marc:I've definitely had a lovely time.
Marc:There is a darkness to it.
Marc:There's a darkness to it that's a little edgy in the sense of like, you know, I could see how you could easily become depressed and your heart and soul could match the grayness of the sky and the heaviness of being closer to the top of the earth, which I always feel in the Pacific Northwest.
Marc:But nonetheless.
Marc:Great food.
Marc:I've eaten way too many cookies.
Marc:The guy from Bunk Sandwiches, which is the greatest place in the world, WTF fan, came to one of the shows, told me to come by Bunk.
Marc:I'm like, hell yeah, I'll come by Bunk.
Marc:You're going to set me up?
Marc:I didn't say that.
Marc:I was willing to pay.
Marc:But free food is always fun food.
Marc:So I went to bunk with this friend of mine, Rebecca, and then all of a sudden he puts two sandwiches in front of me.
Marc:He puts a pork belly Cubano right there in front of me, and then he puts his brisket sandwich in front of me.
Marc:And again, I'm in this situation where am I Adam Richman?
Marc:Is it Man Against Food?
Marc:The problem with the second part of me and my Man Against Food thing, if I'm going to shove all that shit into my mouth, which I like to do,
Marc:That it starts off as man against food, and then it ends up with me against me.
Marc:Don't feel good about it.
Marc:Don't want to ruminate about it.
Marc:I also wanted to talk a little bit about bitterness, if I could, before we get into this Gallagher debacle.
Marc:I don't even know if it's a debacle.
Marc:It wasn't.
Marc:That controversial.
Marc:You'll hear it in a minute.
Marc:But I recently had this weird experience where, look, I've been feeling pretty good.
Marc:I've been feeling pretty cocky about the podcast, about what's going on in my life.
Marc:And I have this problem that, you know, when things start going well outside of, you know, you know, thinking about how is it going to get fucked up?
Marc:How am I going to fuck it up?
Marc:I get, you know, fairly I get a little cocky.
Marc:I get a little confident.
Marc:I get a little like, you know, like I'm doing what I want to do.
Marc:I mean, it's good.
Marc:And I reached out to somebody, somebody I have some history with, and I reached out to him.
Marc:I called his office, not really expecting to get a call back because there's still part of me that thinks I'm off the radar, which I am for the most part in the big picture.
Marc:I am a bit off the radar.
Marc:But I was feeling cocky.
Marc:I was thinking like, well, look, you know, maybe it's time for me to reach out to this guy.
Marc:I would never have thought I would have any access to this person at all before.
Marc:And then I decided like, you know, I'm the guy who apologizes.
Marc:People come and they talk to me and I get to apologize to them.
Marc:And we talk about the past and we bury the hatchet and we learn things about each other.
Marc:And everybody is is is entertained and it's human and it's good.
Marc:I'm going to do that.
Marc:I'm going to call him.
Marc:And I called him and I left a message and I didn't really think I would hear back from him.
Marc:Then I get a message on my phone from him.
Marc:And it's a fairly big deal given who he is.
Marc:And I thought, awesome.
Marc:I'm in.
Marc:We're going to do it.
Marc:This is going to be a great interview.
Marc:And then we play phone tag a little bit.
Marc:And then he finally calls me again.
Marc:And he basically said, look.
Marc:I'm not sure what you're doing.
Marc:It seems fine.
Marc:I'm glad that people are doing it and that you're doing it.
Marc:But quite honestly, I don't know if you remember what an asshole you were to me and just how fucking mean and shitty you were to me.
Marc:And, of course, I was like, dude, that was 20 years ago.
Marc:I mean, you know, I apologize, and I mean it.
Marc:I mean, I thought we grew past that.
Marc:It's like, yeah, he said, I don't actively think about it.
Marc:But, you know, there's no love here.
Marc:And, you know, I'm certainly not going to talk about it publicly.
Marc:I mean, some people may do that, but I don't do that.
Marc:You know, I have no reason to do that.
Marc:And, you know, again, I'm glad that things are working out with you.
Marc:I like what you do, and you seem to do a lot of interesting things.
Marc:But I just –
Marc:Yeah, I'm not going to do that.
Marc:And then he said, you know, if you want to sit down at some point in the future and talk about it privately, we can do that.
Marc:And I'm like, OK, well, that sounds fine.
Marc:You know, and I hung up the phone and it really fucked me up because there's something about for some reason when you change, like I'm different, that you think that everybody's just going to go, OK, great.
Marc:He's here and he's different.
Marc:What does he want me to do?
Marc:It's not the case.
Marc:Some people aren't going to forgive you.
Marc:Some people aren't going to forgive you easily.
Marc:And some people may never let things go.
Marc:Even when I've forgiven people, I don't let it go completely.
Marc:Forgiveness, it's a fucking tall order.
Marc:It's a tall order.
Marc:And then I felt hurt.
Marc:Like, you know, how could he not want to work this out?
Marc:That's just fucking life, dude.
Marc:When you spend a lot of time moving around, doing shows, living in four different cities, I mean, you're going to end up, you know, sticking your dick into someone else's life, either metaphorically or...
Marc:Or literally, that you're going to, you know, what you do has an impact.
Marc:And the bigger your life is, the more that shit is around.
Marc:The more, you know, kind of baggage you have out there.
Marc:You just have little, you know, hurt people or people that are angry at you.
Marc:And that's a burden.
Marc:And you can't make it all right.
Marc:And you're just going to have to suck that up and try to be a better person.
Marc:But forgiveness is fucking hard.
Marc:Because I'm sitting here eating salmon in oil out of a mason jar, you know, and I've got all this, you know, weird anger just marinating in bile in my heart.
Marc:You know, and if I unscrew the top of that, who the fuck knows what's going to happen?
Marc:I just leave it preserved for a future date.
Marc:Hopefully it'll go bad or go soft or fucking ease up, get a little peace of mind.
Marc:And I think that this is a reasonable setup for Gallagher.
Marc:Because you guys know me.
Marc:I try to enter these conversations in a genuine way.
Marc:I just wanted to have a real conversation with him.
Marc:I wanted to afford him the respect that he deserved as a guy who had a career in show business.
Marc:Look, you know, comedians are different.
Marc:There are clowns.
Marc:There are comics.
Marc:It's fucking show business.
Marc:And as I said before, many of you probably loved this guy when you were a kid.
Marc:But, you know, the audiences that he still has, I'm sure he had them when they were kids.
Marc:But maybe they didn't grow up.
Marc:Maybe he's just he's a clown.
Marc:And he's a comedian.
Marc:And, you know, he's fucking Gallagher.
Marc:And he's a guy that's on the other side of his career.
Marc:And listening to the...
Marc:To the interview I did or tried to do or got halfway through, I certainly didn't mean to stoke the fires of somebody who's in this position of trying to regroup without maybe not having as much hindsight or self-awareness as he might want and being sort of crucified for what he thinks is a stupid thing.
Marc:But it did bring up a lot of talk about when is a joke insensitive?
Marc:I mean, it's just there's this idea around doing certain jokes that are clearly bullying, that are clearly minimizing, you know, whether the jokes about gays or blacks or whatever.
Marc:There's a way to do that stuff.
Marc:And there are people that have a license to do it.
Marc:Does everybody have the license to do it?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Is there a price to pay for it?
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:Can you please everybody?
Marc:No.
Marc:Can you entertain everybody?
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, ultimately, it's going to be what's in your heart.
Marc:How do you treat other people?
Marc:What do you feel about other people?
Marc:Do some of those jokes reveal hypocrisy?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:But there's this argument that is sort of made in this conversation that I had with Gallagher that what you do as a comic is release aggression.
Marc:You ease aggression.
Marc:That you disarm things.
Marc:And I think that's true.
Marc:But I think that there's a deeper level to it too, that you also reveal hypocrisy, that you satirize extremes in order to make a point about society, about culture, about how we see the world.
Marc:I agree with all that.
Marc:But at some point, if you're doing jokes that hurt people,
Marc:Okay, fine.
Marc:You could say, well, they're babies.
Marc:They can't take a joke.
Marc:Well, maybe they've been taking that joke their entire fucking life, and all they hear it as is pain and attack.
Marc:Or all they hear it as is, you know, you're saying that I'm less than because I am who I am.
Marc:And that's a reality, too.
Marc:Are those jokes bad?
Marc:No.
Marc:Can they be done well?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But this idea of disarming anger through humor, I mean, it's almost a difference between saying, like, I've got a gangrenous sore on my leg, but I'm just going to put lotion on it as opposed to treat the infection.
Marc:I'm just going to put lotion on it because it feels better.
Marc:I'm just going to remain in denial that I might lose my fucking leg.
Marc:It's the same thing.
Marc:At a certain point, maybe we don't need any more fucking lotion.
Marc:I mean, at some point, something's got to go deeper, and obviously it's not everybody's responsibility.
Marc:And I wasn't trying to attack this guy as much as I was trying to figure out where the fuck he was coming from.
Marc:Look, I was excited about it.
Marc:You know, he came to my hotel, and when he got here, I met him in the lobby, and I realized that he really didn't know what he was getting into.
Marc:I don't think he knew what a podcast was.
Marc:He asked me, is this live or what?
Marc:And I'm like, no, it's a podcast.
Marc:He's like, what?
Marc:And I'm like, okay, this is where we're at.
Marc:And then I tried to be a good host.
Marc:I said, do you want some coffee?
Marc:There was no coffee.
Marc:You know, I mean, we went over to where the coffee was that they put out in the morning.
Marc:It's not there.
Marc:I said, look, I'll buy you coffee.
Marc:We'll go up to the room.
Marc:We need a drink or something.
Marc:And then the funniest thing was, you know, he's Gallagher.
Marc:You know, he's been living this life that I'm living right now in my hotel room for 30 years.
Marc:He started walking around the lobby.
Marc:He's like, wait a minute.
Marc:And he looked down the hall and there was a banquet hall.
Marc:And, you know, he looks at he's like, come here, come here.
Marc:I'll show you something.
Marc:So we're walking down this banquet hall that looks like it was set up for an event.
Marc:He goes, if we're real cool, if we're real quiet, we can just go in there and just get some coffee.
Marc:But you got to be cool.
Marc:And I'm like, yeah, I know this trick.
Marc:You know, it's like, hey, yeah, I'm supposed to be here.
Marc:Is this coffee for everybody if you get caught?
Marc:But there was no coffee there.
Marc:So we came up to my room and he ate some chocolate chip cookies that one of you made.
Marc:And we had this conversation.
Marc:So here is half of what would have been a whole interview with Gallagher from Portland, Oregon.
Guest:I'm here with Gallagher in my hotel room in Portland, Oregon.
Guest:You're doing what tomorrow?
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:What's the gig?
Guest:Oh, there's a TV show for some kind of a jazz festival that Craig puts on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who's Craig?
Guest:Well, he's a guy that's been working with me, helping me to get some opportunities and show business.
Guest:You know, these kids are all so young, they don't know who I am.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:I think everybody knows who you are.
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't think they put you into a proper perspective, but I think everyone knows who you are.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Of course they do.
Marc:I think that the name itself may have different connotations to people.
Marc:It may not be what you want, but I think everyone knows who you are.
Marc:I would find it bizarre if someone didn't know who you were.
Guest:Well, why don't I have my own TV show then?
Guest:If I'm a well-known comic, shouldn't I have a talk show, a sitcom, some kind of reality show?
Guest:You have had more... Why doesn't my phone ring?
Marc:Well, it's been a long time, Gallagher.
Marc:What?
Guest:So what?
Guest:Are you going to tell this comedy audience that comedians get old and they're not effective and they lose their chops?
Marc:How many specials have you had?
Guest:14.
Marc:On Showtime and HBO?
Guest:Yeah, from the 80s to the middle of the 90s.
Guest:So I haven't performed as long as I did perform.
Marc:You have had an incredible career by most.
Marc:If you were to look at your career, you were a household name.
Marc:You were mythic in the 80s.
Marc:Everyone fucking knew who you were.
Marc:So let's go back, because I was a doorman at the comedy store.
Marc:Now, where did you come from, and how did you find your way to the fucking comedy store?
Guest:Remember the doorman that was the father of that kid who wasn't that great of a comic, so he became an agent?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:That's before my time.
Marc:I mean, I was a doorman in 87.
Guest:Alan Bursky.
Guest:Mr. Bursky.
Guest:You don't remember Mr. Bursky?
Marc:Freddie Prinze's gun was rumored to belong to Alan Bursky.
Marc:That's how he fits into the mix.
Guest:Rumored?
Guest:Of course it was.
Guest:Why do you say that?
Guest:Because Alan liked guns.
Guest:And he played around with the two of those guys who were friends.
Guest:And sure, but you can get guns in L.A.
Guest:I'm not going to blame Alan.
Marc:Anyone can get a gun in this country.
Guest:In L.A.
Guest:But a funny thing happened one day.
Guest:You know that Mr. Bursky lived in this apartment house.
Guest:And every time something was open, he would suggest it to one of the comics down at the store.
Guest:And he filled the place up with comics.
Guest:Now, that comic that did like 60 Tonight Shows but didn't get to be the host.
Guest:This is how I talk now that I'm old.
Guest:Sammy Short.
Guest:I can't remember anybody.
Guest:Dreesen.
Guest:Tom Dreesen.
Marc:Tom Dreesen.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Tom did like 60.
Guest:Everybody thought he was going to be the new Johnny Carson because he wore a suit.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he had a bunch of... He's still around, right?
Marc:He opened for Frank Sinatra, too.
Guest:Which was the kiss of death, just like my Sledge-O-Matic.
Guest:It takes you out of town, and you come back, and guys that aren't as talented as you and don't have an act and can't have a career all of a sudden get a TV.
Guest:Let's start at the beginning.
Guest:Where'd you start?
Guest:No, Tom Dreesen needs to go.
Guest:Mr. Berski's having a heart attack.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Tom says, I'd like to stay, but I'm doing The Tonight Show.
Guest:Ha ha ha!
Guest:And so, of course, Mr. Bersky understood.
Guest:Isn't that the craziest show business?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very selfish.
Guest:Very selfish.
Guest:Do another.
Guest:Oh, we got to do it.
Guest:It's the Tonight Show, which used to be a real bottleneck for comedy.
Guest:You had to be on the Tonight Show and you almost had to have Johnny like you and call you over to the desk.
Marc:How long did it take you to get on the show?
Guest:A long time, because Johnny doesn't like prop comics, but he's a magician.
Guest:Figure that out.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:Boxes and silks and bunnies and cards.
Guest:That's on TV.
Guest:Well, he shouldn't have ever said that.
Guest:But they would let me on if I... You know what I did?
Guest:What?
Guest:I made up a routine about The Tonight Show called The Tonight Show Home Game.
Guest:I put Johnny in a little suitcase, and when I opened it up, he popped out, and you pulled one string, and he touched his tie, and the other string, he threw his pencil.
Guest:I showed this routine to the set director because he was a partner with the guy who owns the Magic Castle with this club in Santa Monica, the Mayfair Music Hall, where I was appearing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he said, I want you to come into a production meeting, do this little routine and leave.
Guest:Don't talk to anybody.
Guest:Just do what you just did and leave.
Guest:And it got me on the show.
Marc:And you did how many?
Guest:I must have done about nine or ten.
Guest:I could be on with a guest host.
Guest:So I was on with Kenny Rogers because I was his opening act for a year.
Guest:I don't think I was on with.
Guest:No, I was on with comedians.
Guest:I guess those guys are comedians, too.
Guest:Joan Rivers, I think, one time.
Guest:And see, you keep making me come up with people's names.
Marc:But I'm curious about where'd you come from and how'd you start?
Marc:Why comedy?
Marc:I mean, because you're a fairly defined act.
Marc:I thought you might have been a street performer, but you're not.
Guest:No.
Marc:You never came from that.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I was watching comics, and I felt like I could do it better, and so I just started, and I did it.
Marc:But what was your first job in show business?
Guest:Opening for Kenny Rogers.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So the country music world?
Guest:I just stayed in L.A.
Guest:and did talk shows and pretended I was famous.
Guest:I noticed that if you're on the talk shows, everybody thinks you're famous.
Marc:So you just act like you're famous.
Guest:And I met Kenny Rogers' manager there, and he said, I'll let you open for Kenny for a year.
Guest:100 shows at $5,000 a night was a half a million dollar deal.
Marc:And was he a good guy?
Guest:The manager or Kenny?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not going to tell tales.
Marc:No.
Marc:So now who was in there?
Guest:Well, he almost fired me.
Guest:The first night I told a prick joke.
Marc:About a prick or that someone is a prick?
Guest:Well, about the Iranians because it was the time of the hostage crisis.
Guest:And the first job was opening this house.
Guest:14,000 seat auditorium in dallas texas the reunion center yeah that was the first job on mother's day and his mom drives in from conroe and i say why can't you circumcise an iranian you can't there ain't no end of them pricks and they get a big reaction from a texas audience right you know because they're real pro-american and uh so he wanted to fire me the first night
Marc:And that was it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you stayed on.
Guest:Yeah, I stayed on.
Marc:How'd you apologize?
Guest:I did it.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:When it gets a big cheer.
Guest:No, I wasn't sorry.
Guest:I did my job right.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:He's the one that brought his mommy.
Guest:Brought your mommy to the show for criminy.
Marc:Well, who was in your class at the comedy store?
Marc:Were you there with Letterman?
Guest:I saw everybody.
Marc:Was it 1970?
Guest:I was there before it was the comedy store.
Guest:I saw Sammy make a deal with Art LeBeau.
Guest:And I saw Mitzi sitting with a cigar box at the front door taking door...
Guest:Money right and art got the drinks right ice and I talked to her through the whole business when she bought the
Guest:The business from Art LeBeau.
Guest:Then when she wouldn't give the comics any money and she bought a mansion nearby.
Guest:Did you strike?
Guest:That we met at my house.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:So you were a union organizer?
Guest:I was, let's share the wealth.
Guest:Why would guys come down here and do a show?
Guest:So you have a socialist thread in here.
Marc:Who would know?
Marc:It's not socialist.
Marc:I'm making a joke.
Guest:Only in L.A.
Guest:do they think you should work for free.
Marc:Okay, so you guys met at your house.
Marc:And who was in that crew?
Marc:Jeff Altman.
Guest:Jay Leno came by.
Marc:Jay Leno.
Guest:But he was just laughing at us.
Guest:Jay always said, just take whatever money they'll give you.
Marc:Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that.
Marc:I think working for nothing.
Guest:For some reason, Jay Leno and David Letterman knew they were going to have a talk show.
Guest:Somehow they had an inside track.
Marc:You think it was an inside track or just focus?
Guest:It didn't matter whether they had an act or not.
Guest:You know, Jay's act was very forgettable.
Guest:And he ran around just like Tom Dreesen opening for washed up old singers, you know.
Marc:But now but but isn't that just a career trajectory?
Marc:I mean, if you're up there doing what you do, I mean, your your idea was not to get a talk show.
Guest:I wouldn't have minded a talk show.
Guest:I thought if you can be a good live performer, you ought to be able to sit down and talk.
Marc:But where do you fit interviews in between Dancing Around and Smashing Shoot?
Guest:Well, how did Jay and Dave get good at interviews?
Marc:They stood still, and they wore a suit.
Guest:Oh, and they're really good at interviews.
Guest:Jay says you used to model before you got into acting.
Guest:I practiced that.
Guest:You used to model before you got into acting.
Guest:Why can't I have the Tonight Show?
Marc:I am not defending Jay Leno.
Marc:I'm just saying that your career, your decision in the type of showman you were going to be was different than theirs.
Guest:No, it wasn't.
Guest:I got jobs and had to leave town.
Guest:And for some reason, they had this inside track.
Guest:Dave used to say to me, I don't need to have an act.
Guest:I'm going to have a talk show.
Marc:Right, because that's what he wanted to do.
Guest:Well, they gave him one out in L.A.
Guest:and it bombed terrible.
Marc:But did you want to do a talk show?
Guest:I wanted to make big money.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, that's different.
Marc:So you chose your angle.
Guest:You made big money.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Didn't you?
Guest:I did it the hard way, though.
Guest:I sold a live ticket.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:How'd you like to sell a live ticket in a downturn?
Marc:Well, I'm about there.
Marc:I mean, I'm still doing stand-up.
Guest:Well, I have my pulse on the economy because I get a call all the time.
Marc:Is that the economy calling now?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Isn't that your phone?
Marc:I guess.
Marc:So let me just go back.
Marc:Now, in the beginning for you, when you decided to, you were always a prop comic, and I'm not negating that, but the Sledge-O-Matic was what turned it around, right?
Guest:It was the first routine I wrote.
Guest:First.
Guest:It was the reason that I considered comedy is because I did so well with my first routine.
Marc:Which was the Sledge-O-Matic.
Guest:Yeah, I was watching the Vege-O-Matic guy on TV, and I thought, well, why do they chop it up when you're going to chew it?
Guest:And I said, they ought to just hit it with a hammer.
Guest:And then I noticed that veg and sledge rhymed, and so I wrote the routine.
Guest:I sent it to George Carlin.
Guest:George wrote me back and said he writes all his own material.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:He just said I write all my own material.
Guest:But he did write you back.
Guest:But he was nice enough to write me back.
Guest:Albert Einstein did not.
Marc:Albert Brooks's.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You wrote Albert Brooks with a so legend.
Guest:I gave it.
Guest:I sent it to both.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Albert didn't write back.
Marc:No.
Marc:So why were you sending it off?
Marc:You were performing already or you hadn't started?
Guest:I wasn't a comedian.
Guest:I was a chemist.
Marc:You were a chemist?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was your future plan then?
Guest:Crystal meth?
Guest:I was going to save the world.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Well, one way or another with my creativity.
Guest:Creativity can be in any field.
Guest:I've got patents now.
Guest:You know, I use my creativity to invent things instead of make props.
Marc:How did you see yourself saving the world with chemistry?
Marc:What would you want to do?
Guest:Well, cancer research or, well, it could have been energy.
Marc:Was the path just too long for you at the time?
Marc:I mean, did you not want to?
Guest:I got diverted with this damn lucrative comedy thing.
Guest:But I still meet with physics departments as I travel around the country.
Guest:About what?
Guest:Well, I talk to them about subatomic particles and how we could make the whole field more approachable to the average person.
Guest:People are exposed.
Marc:Make it approachable to me because I don't understand.
Marc:It's vague.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What's going through your head right now as you receive cell phone calls?
Guest:A photon or an electron?
Marc:I'm going to choose electron.
Guest:You think you're being hit by lightning.
Guest:Do you see?
Guest:We don't understand the technology that we use, and we don't know the risk that we're taking with our bodies, our DNA.
Guest:An electron has weight.
Guest:Is it a photon or an electron?
Guest:It's a photon.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:It has no weight, so it has to be at a very high frequency to break your DNA.
Guest:That's what cancer is, broken DNA.
Marc:Right, renegade cells.
Guest:Renegade DNA.
Marc:Right, Renegade DNA, looking for a body, trying to build a body for itself.
Guest:No, it's been turned on.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The switch has been turned on for it to replicate cells, and it goes out of control.
Marc:And so without an organic complex, it makes tumors.
Guest:Without any organization that makes a tumor.
Guest:It's actually healthy cells, new cells in a gob that are unorganized.
Guest:These kids study Pokemon cards.
Guest:It's a little dated, but I get your point.
Guest:They learn the powers and characteristics of meaningless things.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Instead of what's a photon, an electron, a neutrino, an up quark, and a down quark.
Guest:So I want to make a boy band or a basketball team, a cartoon show.
Guest:I have the rights to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Guest:This isn't the first cartoon project.
Marc:You have the rights to them?
Guest:I met them when they first started.
Guest:The original band?
Guest:Eastman and Laird were these guys in New England.
Guest:And they had this idea.
Guest:And they showed me the drawings, but they had no story ideas.
Guest:And they did their career backwards.
Guest:They sold the toys first.
Guest:So they couldn't get a movie deal.
Guest:So I got the movie rights.
Marc:So you made some money off of that?
Guest:No.
Guest:We made a deal.
Guest:Well, actually, I did with Golden Harvest.
Marc:Which was a production company?
Guest:Raymond Chow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, I remember that guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, he put the money in the Netherlands Antilles.
Guest:You had to get a Dutch lawyer to chase it down.
Marc:So you got screwed.
Guest:I didn't get any money.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So now you want to teach the kids that they're getting tumors from their cell phones.
Guest:I want them to understand what women, too, when they put their breast on a plate to have a breast exam.
Guest:What is it?
Guest:A CT scan?
Guest:Is it magnetic resonance?
Guest:It's an electron.
Guest:PET scan has electrons.
Marc:How do you feel about the full body scanners?
Guest:Are they projecting electrons?
Marc:Do you opt out?
Marc:Do you get the pat down?
Guest:Oh, you mean at the airport?
Guest:No, there's nothing harmful there.
Guest:In the full body scanners?
Guest:No.
Guest:How do you know?
Guest:Because I know.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:It's not electrons.
Marc:It's all about electrons.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're actually concerned with the health and awareness of people in this world.
Guest:We use technology before we understand it.
Guest:Drugs also.
Guest:Some people are killed.
Guest:No, I agree with that.
Guest:They find out.
Guest:We guinea pigs.
Guest:We just accept what's new and see if it hurts.
Marc:Now, my question to you then is that you have this streak where you're a progressive thinker, you're a creative thinker.
Marc:And I think that on some level, in retrospect, you can see the Sledge-O-Matic as a commentary on consumer culture.
Guest:It was a satire.
Marc:Okay, I understand that.
Guest:The problem is the fights at a hockey match, right?
Guest:My act was a hockey match.
Guest:match and instead a fight broke out and everybody came back for the fight.
Guest:Or the wrecks at a car race.
Guest:Right.
Marc:There was an anarchy to it.
Guest:Well, they just wanted the smashing and didn't care about my insightful satire of buying meaningless things.
Marc:Now we fast forward to where we are now and you've got this reputation of being a racist and a homophobe.
Marc:There are jokes you do that are a little vicious.
Guest:They are not.
Guest:I've watched these Comedy Central roasts and I don't say anything.
Guest:A roast is a context.
Marc:There is a context to that.
Guest:A context.
Guest:And what's my problem?
Guest:There's no context in a comedy show?
Marc:No, there's a context.
Marc:I'm just saying that when you attack gay people or you attack.
Guest:Attack?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't attack them.
Marc:You make fun of them in a very aggressive way.
Guest:Let's say I tell a joke about a white middle class man.
Guest:Does anybody say, why do I not like white middle class men?
Marc:I think that's a false.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because it is.
Guest:It's one area of our society is sensitive and can't take a joke.
Guest:And what am I making jokes about?
Guest:I'm making jokes about people who don't complain.
Marc:Well, tell me some of your jokes about homosexuals.
Marc:Just out of curiosity.
Guest:I don't have any jokes about homosexuals, but I might tell a joke.
Guest:I haven't written any.
Guest:I tell jokes somebody else wrote.
Marc:What are they?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:What are my really good homosexual jokes?
Guest:What does Siegfried have in common with the tiger?
Guest:They both know what Roy tastes like.
Guest:Why don't lesbians lose weight?
Guest:You can't put Jenny Craig in your mouth with Mary Kay on your face.
Guest:I mean, they're jokes.
Marc:But how do you feel about it?
Guest:It's a nightclub.
Marc:I understand what you're saying.
Marc:It's a nightclub for your particular audience.
Guest:My audience?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:If you were to do that here in Portland in a particular audience now or in Seattle, just say curiosity.
Guest:I'm not attacking you.
Guest:Now, remember, I did work in Portland recently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And who came out?
Guest:All my fans.
Guest:It's a nightclub.
Marc:It's your fans, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay, so it's specific.
Guest:It has nothing to do with what their opinion is about homosexuals.
Guest:You sure?
Marc:You don't think you're feeding a fire of intolerance at all?
Marc:I mean, I'm just asking.
Guest:By repeating a joke I heard on the street.
Marc:Well, I mean, you've got to take responsibility.
Marc:You're saying it.
Marc:I mean, I understand it's a street joke, but some of those are pretty awful, too.
Marc:I'm just saying that you're pigeonholing a group.
Marc:How could you... Why make fun of them?
Marc:Why make fun of them in that way?
Marc:Why minimize them and their way of life?
Guest:Minimize?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Can I pick on Arabs?
Marc:Can you?
Guest:Can I?
Guest:Where are you drawing the line?
Marc:Where does it come from?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:What is your incentive?
Guest:They're the enemy.
Guest:I've got to do a pass out.
Marc:All Arabs are the enemy.
Guest:For some reason, I've got to be at the airport two hours early.
Marc:That's because some specific people of Arab descent did something awful.
Guest:Well, are there just some homosexuals that can't take a joke?
Marc:Well, no, I'm just saying that to generalize.
Marc:Here's what the problem is.
Marc:It's about tolerance.
Guest:There'll be a homosexual comedian who will stand on stage and talk about straight people all night long.
Guest:Is that true?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I've only heard homosexual comedians talk about their gayness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, isn't that the same as... But isn't that empowering?
Marc:And if you come up there and say these facts... And I can't talk about my straightness?
Marc:You can.
Guest:But do you have to make fun of homosexuals in order to do that?
Guest:Here's what comedy is.
Guest:It's a reversal.
Guest:Why did they always give the funny line to the kid in a sitcom?
Guest:Tell me.
Guest:Because it's not right that the kid is smarter than the parents.
Guest:It's wrong.
Guest:It's a reversal.
Guest:So having a female spirit in a male body or a male spirit in a female body is a reversal.
Guest:It's God's joke.
Marc:Okay, well, I understand that you believe in God.
Marc:Do you believe in God?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay, I didn't think so.
Marc:Now, let me say something else.
Guest:Look, I'm a comic.
Guest:I don't believe in anything.
Guest:I know that.
Guest:You're a selfish guy.
Guest:If you tell me you care about something, I'm going to smash it.
Marc:You're going to smash me?
Guest:I'm going to teach you that it's not as important as you think.
Guest:And you should laugh about it.
Marc:Okay, I understand that.
Marc:But my question is that when you isolate Arabs or you isolate homosexuals, your personal feeling about that, you don't care.
Marc:Do you have anything against gay people?
Guest:If people didn't laugh, I wouldn't say it.
Marc:But do you have anything against gay people?
Guest:Now you want to blame me?
Guest:You're going to blame me.
Marc:Do you have anything against gay people?
Guest:No.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:Do you have anything against Arabs?
Guest:How can you be in show business?
Marc:I'm just asking you.
Marc:Do you have anything against Arabs in a general way?
Marc:I understand gays better than I do Arabs.
Marc:Okay, but I mean... I don't really know anything about... Because you're being associated with a type of right-wing thinking that is destructive.
Guest:I?
Guest:Me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where'd you get your information for this interview?
Guest:I just read a couple articles.
Guest:There's no information.
Marc:What, do you believe it?
Marc:I'm asking you.
Guest:I'm a comic!
Marc:Okay, but see, I think that you are a businessman, and if anything, politically, you're probably more libertarian than anything else.
Guest:right i don't care you just want to make money no i don't even care about that i have two stents in my heart i could die during this interview that would be spectacular that would be a great interview i would leave it running when the paramedics come half an hour but so but do you so basically you're just playing for your audience no i am telling them things they'll laugh at and they enjoy what if it hurts people's feelings
Marc:And what if people see it as isolating and vicious?
Guest:Isolating and vicious?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:If you isolate a group of people and say you're all this, you're all that, it gets construed as racism or sexism or anything else.
Guest:What about Lisa Lampanelli?
Marc:What about her?
Marc:She's an angry woman who talks from her own point of view.
Guest:About black people.
Marc:That she has sex with.
Marc:Are you having sex with gay men?
Guest:Who knows she has sex with these guys?
Guest:I do.
Marc:I met her when she started.
Marc:That's all she talked about was fucking black guys.
Guest:If it's the truth, you're allowed to say the N word.
Guest:I think to a certain degree, yeah.
Guest:I don't say the N word.
Guest:I don't do any black jokes.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, that's very big of you.
Marc:Now, why don't you?
Marc:Why don't you repeat those three jokes?
Guest:There's no blacks in my audience.
Marc:So you think it would be rude?
Guest:Not one.
Guest:No.
Guest:Do you think there are homosexuals in your audience?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Did they come up to you and thank you afterwards?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:What did they say to you?
Guest:They either tell me a better joke than I told, and they laugh about it.
Guest:I work biker conventions.
Guest:Well, I'm sure you do.
Guest:Don't you think that there's lesbians in leather riding bikes?
Guest:Let me tell you this.
Marc:I'm not doubting you.
Guest:I never see a guy on the back of a bike that a woman is driving.
Guest:There are sexual roles in America, and when you break them, it's funny.
Marc:I know, but all I'm questioning is your sensitivity to some of the flack you've gotten recently.
Guest:I'm not sensitive.
Guest:I think they're all idiots.
Marc:Everybody.
Marc:I think you think everyone's an idiot, right?
Marc:For the most part.
Guest:If they're missing the point.
Guest:I'm a comedian.
Guest:I'm not running for political office.
Marc:I know, but you're speaking out loud to a group of people.
Marc:Who are drinking.
Marc:But if you say all those people that aren't here, those people that are sensitive and trying to find their way in the world, they're all fucking idiots.
Guest:What is the use of humor?
Marc:What is the use of humor in our society?
Marc:To disarm and educate.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:To release tension and aggression.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:If I say something about a topic that people burst into laughter about, I'm going to be the doctor and I'm going to tell you that you have a pain there, you have an irritation, you have an inflammation, you have a problem.
Guest:So the fact that the country laughs at lesbian jokes means they have a problem with it.
Marc:But to displace the humor, to attack a group of people that is already victim— You must be really irritated that the House is now Republican.
Guest:Can you explain this backlash?
Marc:Sure I can.
Guest:Over the health?
Marc:Yeah, but it's a misinterpretation of the health plan.
Marc:Blah, blah, blah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:L.A.
Guest:and New York has never been able to understand the middle of this country.
Guest:Wait a minute.
Guest:Wait a minute.
Guest:I understand it.
Marc:Of course I do.
Marc:You do not.
Marc:Of course I do.
Guest:Well, you better have some lesbian jokes.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:I don't need lesbian jokes.
Marc:I'm a free thinker.
Marc:I don't need I don't need I don't need street jokes either.
Marc:You know, I mean free thinker is different.
Guest:I'm a free thinker.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's a nightclub.
Guest:I understand the context.
Guest:It's not therapy.
Marc:Yes, it is therapy on some level.
Guest:Not for you.
Marc:No, but if you just said to me that your job is to release aggression and disarm prejudice.
Guest:Of the audience.
Guest:You don't care about the audience.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Then you're a therapist.
Marc:Of course I care about the audience.
Marc:No, you don't.
Marc:Of course I do.
Guest:Do you change it when you're in Oklahoma from when you're in Portland?
Guest:No.
Marc:Why would I?
Marc:Because they're different people.
Marc:Are people different?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Are people really different?
Guest:I'll tell you where you can't tell a lesbian.
Guest:Are people different?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're saying that the wiring of people, someone who understands DNA, you're going to tell me that people are different.
Guest:Well, you can't tell a lesbian joke in Boston, Minneapolis, Portland, and Seattle.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because they'll boo you.
Marc:Because why?
Why?
Guest:Their politics is different.
Marc:Their politics or their sensitivity to people who are a specific group of people that are being made fun of at the brunt of a joke to release the aggression of narrow-minded people as some sort of form of entertainment is offensive to them.
Marc:That's why.
Marc:So my question is, if by releasing aggression in an audience is by saying, like, the Arabs stink, they're all evil, or gays are fucked, and that releases aggression, how is it not just reaffirming fucking prejudice and intolerance?
Marc:In that group of people.
Guest:You think I have the power by telling a joke to rally people.
Guest:To laugh.
Guest:Around.
Marc:To laugh.
Marc:You rally people to laugh at what?
Marc:Because they identify with your prejudice.
Marc:That's why they're laughing.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:I hate fags too.
Marc:Is that releasing aggression in a healthy way?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:There's not hate involved here.
Guest:We're telling jokes.
Marc:Oh, there's a lot of hate and jokes.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:You've been doing this too long.
Marc:You're an angry man.
Marc:You understand.
Guest:I'm not angry.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You're a guy that smashes things.
Guest:Do you think I'm mad every night?
Marc:No, I'm not saying you're mad.
Guest:I'm saying it generally.
Guest:Do you think I'm mad regularly?
Guest:Friday night, 8 o'clock, Saturday night, 8 o'clock.
Marc:No, I'm saying maybe Saturday morning.
Guest:Maybe there's a little acting in this.
Marc:No, I'm not denying your act is not filled with hate, but I'm saying that just the fact that you feel.
Guest:I tell five lesbian jokes, and you went and found an article written about me.
Guest:I'm just asking you a question.
Guest:And decided that not only have you put me in the pigeonhole of being a guy that smashes.
Guest:I'm not pigeonholing you.
Guest:I'm just asking you a question.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:Of course I am.
Guest:You are working your politics.
Guest:I am not.
Guest:What's my politics?
Guest:Your politics is left wing.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You're most at home in Boston, Minneapolis, Seattle.
Guest:Boston is not left wing.
Marc:Oh, it is too.
Marc:But I don't talk about politics on stage as much as I used to.
Guest:Here's Boston's problem.
Marc:But what I'm saying to you is I'm a comedian and I will push the envelope and I understand what you're saying.
Marc:But there's there's a difference between releasing aggression and making people look at something differently.
Guest:Why do you think I tell a really bad I told you all the jokes I tell I heard.
Marc:Well, I know.
Marc:So that that just means that you're society.
Guest:I'm reflecting.
Marc:Yeah, but you're not even using your own material to victimize these groups of people.
Guest:Well, I don't tell them all the time either.
Guest:Somebody's seen one of my shows, and out of 200 jokes, they've chosen five lesbian jokes or gay jokes to focus on.
Marc:The only reason, I'm not concerned with, I don't have a political agenda here.
Marc:I'm just saying that culturally you've got a reputation.
Guest:So you read a couple of articles before this interview and decided whoever wrote them was writer than me.
Marc:I just ask you the jokes, and you address the jokes.
Marc:I put you in the context of the history of comedy.
Marc:You were a profound presence on the comedy scene.
Guest:I had 14 one-hour shows.
Guest:I must have written some original.
Marc:I'm not saying you didn't write original material.
Guest:I'm just asking where you're coming from.
Marc:I was just asking where you're coming from, that's all.
Marc:I respect you as a comedian.
Guest:Do you see any lesbian jokes in my 14 one-hour shows?
Marc:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:But what happened?
Guest:One night, I told some I heard on the street.
Guest:Everybody's up in arms over it.
Marc:No, no, but why the shift?
Guest:It's not a shift.
Guest:It's only five jokes.
Guest:I do a two-hour, two and a half, sometimes three hours.
Guest:I get on at eight, I'm off at 11.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Everybody focuses on one thing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No, no, I'll focus on all of it.
Guest:I'm the problem.
Guest:Do you think when I'm dead, gays will finally have an opportunity in America?
Guest:Have I really been holding them down?
Guest:No, you don't.
Marc:You don't hold gays down.
Marc:Well, then what's your problem with me?
Marc:No, I don't have any problem with you.
Marc:I'm just saying that you reaffirm prejudice by making fun of them.
Guest:Okay, can we tell a Jew joke that they don't want to pay?
Marc:Why?
Marc:It's not true.
Guest:It's not true.
Guest:Why do people laugh?
Marc:Because it's a stereotype that's been established.
Marc:Most people that you laugh at those jokes don't even have a Jew in their life.
Guest:So we can't do any jokes based on stereotypes.
Guest:I didn't say you can do whatever you want.
Marc:You can do whatever you want.
Guest:Black comedians only talk about the difference between blacks and whites.
Marc:Well, there are some stereotypes.
Marc:Look, I am a person that thinks that some stereotypes, some parts of stereotypes are obviously true.
Marc:The entire act.
Guest:is picking on white people that they don't do it right.
Marc:Or talking about black community stuff.
Marc:And I understand that there are stereotypes that fit.
Guest:And fat people only talk about fat.
Guest:There's this midget comic that only does midget jokes.
Guest:I watched his whole act one night.
Guest:Well, what else is he going to do?
Guest:That's his wife.
Guest:No, he could be generally funny.
Guest:But he's getting laughed.
Guest:But by your context, if he's getting laughed... Yeah, change the subject.
Guest:We're bored.
Guest:Are they if they're still laughing?
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:There's no dynamics.
Guest:Most comedians are terrible.
Guest:They should listen to me.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I will hear you out.
Guest:And I help them when I can.
Marc:What is your problem with most comedians?
Guest:Well, like I just said, their show has no dynamics, and it's not a show based on their knowledge of the audience.
Guest:It's a show about them.
Guest:And comedy is not therapy.
Guest:Just because it's a choice.
Marc:Wait a minute, but if you're talking about a show about them, if you're saying that a person that talks about themselves on stage is not a comedian, then you're dismissing a great many great comics.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, they did it wrong.
Marc:No, they didn't do it wrong.
Guest:Okay, you walk into a doctor's office and he talks about his problems instead of one.
Marc:But that's an old joke.
Marc:If a comedian talks about himself, and that is funny, if a comedian is a storyteller... See, by your rubric, you're dismissing... He can't work a state fair.
Marc:Who the fuck wants to work a state fair, necessarily?
Guest:Everybody.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in order to work a state fair, you have to take the Gallagher class.
Guest:You have to work faster and more general.
Guest:There are families out there, and they're not interested in your long, subtle stories.
Marc:Okay, that's fine.
Marc:That's the state fair circuit.
Marc:But the comedy club circuit, the cabaret circuit, can indulge a different... Why can't you just see it as all being part of show business?
Marc:Why are you angry?
Guest:Because there's no show involved.
Guest:They're a bunch of slovenly... They hunch over.
Guest:They turn their back on the audience.
Guest:They take a drink of water.
Guest:That's their style.
Marc:It's show business.
Guest:Why are you drawing lines?
Guest:Why are you taking the other side of everything I say?
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm just saying that.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything about what you're asking me about?
Guest:I'm just telling you.
Marc:I'm done.
Guest:You're done?
I'm done.
You're just arguing.
It's Howard Stern.
Marc:I'm not.
Marc:I was just having a conversation.
Marc:No, you're not.
Marc:I have more respect for comedy.
Guest:You're trying to be controversial.
Guest:I am not.
Guest:Yes, you are.
Guest:30 years of experience.
Marc:Well, then tell me about comedy.
Marc:I just think that show business is show business.
Marc:Well, then just why don't you do the interview and tell people your opinion?
Marc:We were having a good conversation.
Marc:Oh, come on, Gallagher.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, that didn't, well, maybe it really went well.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm certainly not going to chase after him.
Marc:So that was that.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:That was what happened with Gallagher and myself.
Marc:And even listening to it for a third time now, what is to be brought away from this?
Marc:Other than this is where a career in comedy can end up.
Marc:A career in anything can end up.
Marc:God knows there's plenty of people out there that are experiencing frustration because they've reached a certain age and they don't feel like they're useful anymore.
Marc:There's anger there.
Marc:Other than that, you make your own decisions about what you heard.
Marc:You definitely see who he is.
Marc:Thank you for listening.
Marc:And another thing I want to thank someone for, up here in Portland, a gentleman named Brian brought me a beautiful mug with my cats on it, a ceramic mug.
Marc:He's a ceramic artist.
Marc:And I got a thing for ceramics.
Marc:If they're done with style and uniqueness, I think it's a very earnest art form.
Marc:And I want to throw them a little plug because you can go to BrianRJones.com and see some of his work.
Marc:And I think it's beautiful, and I appreciate him bringing that.
Marc:There was a lot of gifts, and I really appreciate it.
Marc:Oh, the shortbread.
Marc:Thanks for that.
Marc:It was delicious, and I hate myself.
Marc:But for all your WTF needs, go to WTFpod.com.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Get yourself some JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:If you get the WTF blend, I get a little kickback from that.
Marc:Donate a few shekels if you could.
Marc:Get some of those packages.
Marc:We might be adding more to the $250 one-time premium donation other than the three CDs, the best of WTF, my three CDs, the two T-shirts, the stickers.
Marc:And I appreciate all your support.
Marc:Go to WTFPodShop.com and pick up some of those premium episodes.
Marc:We're going to add some more to that.
Marc:And also, people are loving the apps.
Marc:The iPhone app, the iPod Touch app, the iPad app, the Droid app.
Marc:Things are growing, and I just want you to be able to get the episodes.
Marc:Because on the apps right now,
Marc:because of the way things went sort of coincidentally.
Marc:It's the only way you can get the early episodes, including the Robin Williams and the Carlos Mencia.
Marc:I appreciate it.
Marc:I appreciate you guys listening.
Marc:Thank you, Portland.
Marc:Thank you, everyone.
Marc:You know, you're going to think what you think.